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 minigun762 wrote:
Being positive, a universal 5+ DtW is pretty cool.

Being negative, it really isn't.

Really though, most of the good psychic powers are buffs, which can't be DtW'd.

You can't be shot off of objectives anymore either (and thus forced to run toward the enemy who shot you). Also, Fearless in 5th was not a good thing, as it meant auto-wounds. You have ATSKNF now and it is better, though not at 10s. No one has it at 10s anymore without a HQ involved.

You get Scouts, you can still have Initiates, though only 1 for 1 and not over 20 in the squad, your codex isn't 10 years old anymore, you still have more named guys than most of the other First founding Chapters. It really isn't that bad.

Is there value in taking naked Sword Brother in each squad just to take advantage of the challenge perks?

 minigun762 wrote:
Is there value in taking naked Sword Brother in each squad just to take advantage of the challenge perks?

Yes, there is a point to this, it's a 10 point upgrade and your squad now has +1 leadership. Also being a BT character, he re-rolls misses in a challenge and has that chance of getting rends, even with his stock chainsword.
I don't see ever why not to take this upgrade. Unless it's like a 5 man shooty team or a squad that is never intended to be in cc.

 ChaosCrusader wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Is there value in taking naked Sword Brother in each squad just to take advantage of the challenge perks?

Yes, there is a point to this, it's a 10 point upgrade and your squad now has +1 leadership. Also being a BT character, he re-rolls misses in a challenge and has that chance of getting rends, even with his stock chainsword.
I don't see ever why not to take this upgrade. Unless it's like a 5 man shooty team or a squad that is never intended to be in cc.

That's my thinking as well.
Even without a power weapon, rending makes you that much scarier for challenges and if you come up against a squad without a character or HQ, chances are you'll win anyway.

While its very anti bt, for a competitive list, what about a RG librarian for scout and rerolls?

 ChaosCrusader wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Is there value in taking naked Sword Brother in each squad just to take advantage of the challenge perks?

Yes, there is a point to this, it's a 10 point upgrade and your squad now has +1 leadership. Also being a BT character, he re-rolls misses in a challenge and has that chance of getting rends, even with his stock chainsword.
I don't see ever why not to take this upgrade.

Apart from all this, just the fact alone that you can squeeze another power weapon into an Initiate squad is fantastic. More killyness against GEQ and MEQ! Giving him a power maul is a good idea too - it denies light infantry (including firewarriors) from taking their armor saves and the +2S can even threaten to insta-kill T3 multi-wound characters. And a rending Power Maul that re-rolls failed hits in a challenge is a mighty fine weapon. Also, multiple S6 attacks against the rear armor of tanks is better than a single S6 krak grenade attack.

My gut tells me that the power axe is the best hidden choice, because you don't have to worry about losing before you can swing.

Love this thread! BT are one of my fav space marine armies and am glad they are getting some love.

It sucks how it seems all the other 6th edition codexs are better though... I love my marines and I guess I'll be playing underdog for sometime.

 minigun762 wrote:
My gut tells me that the power axe is the best hidden choice, because you don't have to worry about losing before you can swing.

On the other hand, no protection against precision shots/attacks, but at least it's an extra Power Weapon.

 minigun762 wrote:
My gut tells me that the power axe is the best hidden choice, because you don't have to worry about losing before you can swing.

You're probably right.

It is 10 points cheaper than the powerfist AND gives you +1 A for 2ccws.

Since BTs now come equipped with krak, and because they are no longer Fearless, and because in 6th ed you have the "our weapons are useless" special rule, there's no longer the fear of being stuck and massacred by a dreadnought that made taking a melta or a powerfist almost mandatory in previous BT armies.

I don't know if I'd take the hidden power weapon unless I was in an LRC.
Rhinos or drop pods are better for Bolter marines, which don't want to be assaulting things.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Being positive, a universal 5+ DtW is pretty cool.

Being negative, it really isn't.

Really though, most of the good psychic powers are buffs, which can't be DtW'd.

Its one of those things you take for granted, but when a 5 vs a 6 is the difference between taking one of the nastier psycic attacks vs saving against it, you wish you had the 5.


On another note if i take CC squads, id rather have the Power axe on the regular initiate while the word brother sticks with a chainsword if im saving points. He wont get challenged and even if hes vulnerable to sniping, he would have to choose between my character or my hidden axe.

djz05 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Being positive, a universal 5+ DtW is pretty cool.

Being negative, it really isn't.

Really though, most of the good psychic powers are buffs, which can't be DtW'd.

Its one of those things you take for granted, but when a 5 vs a 6 is the difference between taking one of the nastier psycic attacks vs saving against it, you wish you had the 5.

And when you get a charge off and don't quite do enough damage to win you really wish you still had Rage or Preferred Enemy. When your melee unit takes a casualty and you're 13+" away from the enemy you wish you still had Righteous Zeal. It's not that a better DtW is useless, it's that it's so incredibly situational that it's almost silly. At least it's fluffy.

And when you are on an objective or firing from behind cover you wish you didn't have righteous zeal

Haha yes on both counts

Things change, rules change, units change.

We either adapt and change along with it or we try out hand at another army that better fits what how we want to play.

Discussing what was or what we would've like, in a tactical sense, doesn't matter on the battlefield.

Great discussion. As a Sisters fanatic, I am heartily in favor of anything that makes Black Templars more awesome, as (allies matrix be damned) they are our natural Marine partners. Go forth and assault, my brothers, we'll be 6" behind you with the meltas....

How about a claw on the Sword Brethren? You still hit at initiative, and in a challenge you get reroll to hit and to wound which gives that extra chance of a rending wound.
You do lose an attack though...

 phoenix darkus wrote:
How about a claw on the Sword Brethren? You still hit at initiative, and in a challenge you get reroll to hit and to wound which gives that extra chance of a rending wound.
You do lose an attack though...

Totally workable, the reroll to wound balances out the loss of an attack just fine.

I like swords mostly for fluff reasons.

and modeling reasons...it is easier to find swords than a lightning claw for your sgts.

 Sir Arun wrote:
and modeling reasons...it is easier to find swords than a lightning claw for your sgts.

Used to be, but now Vanguard make that easy.

 Sir Arun wrote:
And when you are on an objective or firing from behind cover you wish you didn't have righteous zeal

If it's the last turn you go to ground and thus don't run off the objective. Overall it was more useful than harmful, especially seeing as most of the life of the old Codex you didn't have to consolidate at all. Getting into combat faster at the expense of sometimes moving out of position is much more valuable for a melee army than a +1 to Deny the Witch.

EDIT: On the plus side, I finally got to play a game with the new book today. Honour Guard are the best thing to ever happen to us since the 5th edition FAQ update. They murder the living gak out of anything that comes into contact with them, with the possible exception of some select few models with high I and AP2, and even then there'll probably be enough Honour Guard left to kill whatever they're fighting.

For Speeders, I wonder if the old Flamer & Melta combo is still viable, mostly as a deep striking unit.

No, not anymore. In previous editions if a skimmer had moved, it could only be hit on 6s in cc.

To be able to use the HF to full effect, you need to get really close to a squad. And since most squads come with grenades today, your speeder will be toast as unlike crisis suits or eldar vehicles, it cannot JSJ to move out of charge range. You can only hope to take more guys down that your speeder is worth in points, but thats generally a bad way to play 40k.

I'd use dual MM speeders for assured vehicle destruction upon DS, or MM + TML speeders for tactical flexibility (3 S8 shots are nothing to sneeze at upon deep striking, and 48" on the TML also means you dont have to deepstrike if the enemy doesnt have tanks) and 2 small blasts help against infantry at this comfortable range.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
And when you are on an objective or firing from behind cover you wish you didn't have righteous zeal

If it's the last turn you go to ground and thus don't run off the objective. Overall it was more useful than harmful, especially seeing as most of the life of the old Codex you didn't have to consolidate at all. Getting into combat faster at the expense of sometimes moving out of position is much more valuable for a melee army than a +1 to Deny the Witch.

EDIT: On the plus side, I finally got to play a game with the new book today. Honour Guard are the best thing to ever happen to us since the 5th edition FAQ update. They murder the living gak out of anything that comes into contact with them, with the possible exception of some select few models with high I and AP2, and even then there'll probably be enough Honour Guard left to kill whatever they're fighting.

You still get pulled off if you go to ground, as you aren't pinned unless it's specifically by a pinning weapon seeing as that rule is only under the pinning special rule.

Under 5th and 6th edition, so no real change.

Would you give a Vanguard Squad Leader a SS if you're running an HQ in the unit?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
And when you are on an objective or firing from behind cover you wish you didn't have righteous zeal

If it's the last turn you go to ground and thus don't run off the objective. Overall it was more useful than harmful, especially seeing as most of the life of the old Codex you didn't have to consolidate at all. Getting into combat faster at the expense of sometimes moving out of position is much more valuable for a melee army than a +1 to Deny the Witch.

EDIT: On the plus side, I finally got to play a game with the new book today. Honour Guard are the best thing to ever happen to us since the 5th edition FAQ update. They murder the living gak out of anything that comes into contact with them, with the possible exception of some select few models with high I and AP2, and even then there'll probably be enough Honour Guard left to kill whatever they're fighting.

You still get pulled off if you go to ground, as you aren't pinned unless it's specifically by a pinning weapon seeing as that rule is only under the pinning special rule.

Under 5th and 6th edition, so no real change.

RZ didn't apply to units that had gone to ground. It was FAQ'd to stop people going to ground and then zealing away negating the drawbacks.

RZ was only mandatory during 6th.

 minigun762 wrote:
Would you give a Vanguard Squad Leader a SS if you're running an HQ in the unit?

Nope, as challenges can only be issued in general to the unit at large, and I can then send my HQ to deal with it instead of the sarge. In that case I would give the sarge a power axe, so that he can dish out 3 base attacks

holy crap did I just create a rhyme?

 Sir Arun wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Would you give a Vanguard Squad Leader a SS if you're running an HQ in the unit?

Nope, as challenges can only be issued in general to the unit at large, and I can then send my HQ to deal with it instead of the sarge. In that case I would give the sarge a power axe, so that he can dish out 3 base attacks

holy crap did I just create a rhyme?

I think what he means to do is have the Sergeant take the challenge to let the IC murder whatever they're up against.