Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I played a game against chaos today and I had a painfully hard time against his termintors and warpsmith. It seemed that +2 is a magic zone where I don't have volume of fire nor super powerful AP to kill them effectively. Seraphim killing all 5 termies? That's gotta be some bad luck for them. It was my first time using my priestesses and wow, they add so much its ridiculous.

Here's the Bat Rep I did.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/591848.page

 pretre wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
Putting a squad in a position where 5 flamer templates can hit 5 of them at a time isn't really a matter of luck. (Unless it's the result of a super unlikely Land Raider explosion no one could have seen coming.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Termites are on 40mm bases?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, I guess a deep strike mishap where you get to place them where you want would also do it.

Yes, they are on 40mm, which makes it a bit easier.

How is that easier. If they were in a line, you'd have to be 1" away from one end of that line and they'd all have to be in base to base contact for your flamer to even have a chance to reach the furthest one. At max spread, from exactly 1" away you might just barely touch the last guy. If you're getting 5 terminators in every single flamer template, your opponent has done something wrong.

Mavnas wrote:
Putting a squad in a position where 5 flamer templates can hit 5 of them at a time isn't really a matter of luck. (Unless it's the result of a super unlikely Land Raider explosion no one could have seen coming.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Termites are on 40mm bases?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, I guess a deep strike mishap where you get to place them where you want would also do it.

Sorry, i was referring to terminators in my current meta, where they never walk, always deep strike, and usually have at least 1 gun they want to shoot so they stay in a nice little bunch for the flamers. Although some players are wiser to the Celetine+Seraphims, i don't actually play the combo anymore.

As for the maths: Just pick up 20 dice, roll 5+ (re-roll the 5+) then the 2+ armor, and tell me how many 1s on the second roll?
I know it's all averages, but there's usually less than 1 termy left (including the HF and 4 bolt pistols)

I once killed 2 TH/SS termies and a PA Libby with overwatch fire from Celestine and the remains of a Seraphim squad. Now that was cool. Alas I rarely run Celestine and the seraphim anymore. 2 squads of Melta doms and a squad of flamer doms now take up my fast slots.

Also you can't take Jaco as your warlord (that 5++ on a blob squad is too good to pass up) if you take Celestine, so I don't run her either, which is just as well as I'd want the Seraphim support.

D

20 Flamer dice with shred will kill (average) of ~1.85 (so ~2) Terminators. 4 bolt pistols with shred kill ~0.33 terminators. Assuming 4 hits with the heavy flamer with shred you kill ~1.48, so being generous and rounding up to 2, the unit with 4 bolt pistols, 20 hand flamer hits and 4 heavy flamer hits will kill about 4. (Just as an aside, shouldn't it be 6 bolt pistols? In which case you simply get better odds of killing 4).

Assuming they then charge, with no superior, and the termies having thunder hammer, Celestine strikes first, 6 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's, 2+save, mastercrafted.

4 hit, master crafted allows another hit on average, so 5. 3 wounds ave, 0.55 wounds.

Seraphim strike next, assuming no kill.

5x 3 (1 base, +1 two pistols, +1 charge, no HoW)=15
hitting on 4's, wounding on 5's, 2+ save. 0.42 wounds.

Termie should be dead. Just. Probably not advisable. I'm not even going to begin calculating the math on the overwatch kills evildrcheese mentioned.

Just as an aside, the storm shield on termies means little when they go up against Celestine and Seraphim. Just a tidbit.

Enough math hammer for now.

 pretre wrote:
Each wound is 5/9 to wound, 5/36 to fail for the hand flamers.
Heavy Flamer is 8/9 to wound, 8/54 to fail.

So if you got all 5, you would have 100/36 from hand flamers and 40/54 from Heavy flamers. Which is only 3.51 termies.

6 bolt pistols is 4 hits, 3 Wounds. Another 1/2 dead for 4 total dead.

So, a little bad luck could have them die pretty easy.

I dont get the maths, can you break down how you got 5/9 and 5/36 for the Hand flamers? =P

Also, you counted shred right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
20 Flamer dice with shred will kill (average) of ~1.85 (so ~2) Terminators. 4 bolt pistols with shred kill ~0.33 terminators. Assuming 4 hits with the heavy flamer with shred you kill ~1.48, so being generous and rounding up to 2, the unit with 4 bolt pistols, 20 hand flamer hits and 4 heavy flamer hits will kill about 4. (Just as an aside, shouldn't it be 6 bolt pistols? In which case you simply get better odds of killing 4).

Assuming they then charge, with no superior, and the termies having thunder hammer, Celestine strikes first, 6 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's, 2+save, mastercrafted.

4 hit, master crafted allows another hit on average, so 5. 3 wounds ave, 0.55 wounds.

Seraphim strike next, assuming no kill.

5x 3 (1 base, +1 two pistols, +1 charge, no HoW)=15
hitting on 4's, wounding on 5's, 2+ save. 0.42 wounds.

Termie should be dead. Just. Probably not advisable. I'm not even going to begin calculating the math on the overwatch kills evildrcheese mentioned.

Just as an aside, the storm shield on termies means little when they go up against Celestine and Seraphim. Just a tidbit.

Enough math hammer for now.

Sorry, to that you add the superior with plasma pistol, which adds the 2/3 chance of the last 1 out of the 5 to die =P

I guess that for the maths that was a very large omission...

A Superior with a plasma pistol and bolt pistol has a ~71% chance to kill a termie. So yes, that majorly buffs the units chance of killing the termie unit.

Yeah, I wouldn't count on pulling that overwatch stunt again, it left both me and my opponent gob smacked. I wish the Seraphim were an elite choice as I love the models and used to run 2 squads of ten back in the witch hunter days and I don't think I ever run any elite choices as they just don't perform.

D

 BlackTalos wrote:
I dont get the maths, can you break down how you got 5/9 and 5/36 for the Hand flamers? =P

Also, you counted shred right?

1/3 to wound with reroll is 5/9.

The problem with all these stories is that they all assume the enemy will bunch up in range of a unit containing 5 flamer templates. While being able to smack my opponent hard for making tactical errors, I don't build my list with the assumption that my opponent will just feed my flamers with optimal targets.

 evildrcheese wrote:
Yeah, I wouldn't count on pulling that overwatch stunt again, it left both me and my opponent gob smacked. I wish the Seraphim were an elite choice as I love the models and used to run 2 squads of ten back in the witch hunter days and I don't think I ever run any elite choices as they just don't perform.

If you can find an opponent who allows homebrewed units, use the Seraphim models as elite Principalities and tell me how it goes....

Mavnas wrote:
The problem with all these stories is that they all assume the enemy will bunch up in range of a unit containing 5 flamer templates. While being able to smack my opponent hard for making tactical errors, I don't build my list with the assumption that my opponent will just feed my flamers with optimal targets.

It may not happen all the time, but often enough when people deepstrike shooty units and/or roll badly for their Run/Consildation moves.

 Shandara wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
The problem with all these stories is that they all assume the enemy will bunch up in range of a unit containing 5 flamer templates. While being able to smack my opponent hard for making tactical errors, I don't build my list with the assumption that my opponent will just feed my flamers with optimal targets.

It may not happen all the time, but often enough when people deepstrike shooty units and/or roll badly for their Run/Consildation moves.

And also does this within 18" of the Celestine + seraphim unit. If said unit is busy killing his scoring units, then it won't be in a good position to deal with people deep striking in your area.

Mavnas wrote:

 Shandara wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
The problem with all these stories is that they all assume the enemy will bunch up in range of a unit containing 5 flamer templates. While being able to smack my opponent hard for making tactical errors, I don't build my list with the assumption that my opponent will just feed my flamers with optimal targets.

It may not happen all the time, but often enough when people deepstrike shooty units and/or roll badly for their Run/Consildation moves.

And also does this within 18" of the Celestine + seraphim unit. If said unit is busy killing his scoring units, then it won't be in a good position to deal with people deep striking in your area.

Agreed. I basically treat my Seraphim as Forlorne Hope, DS's them behind enemy lines to take out whatever unit I find most annoying (coughnecronlordsquadcough) and than shrug as they die next turn at whatever's around to outgun/AP3 them.

Sometimes they survive more than one turn, though. Angelic Visage can surprise you sometimes. And the eldar player just hates having Celestine hacking through his cheaper troops .

Wait, eldar have non-T6 3+ troops armed with D-scythes?

But yeah, I've had Celestine single-handedly wipe out a squad of long fangs and a bike squad or multiple tac squads in a game. She's very good until she eats some plasma to the face... Twice :(

Holy feth-balls! Something that I hadn't revisited since we got our e-Codex, but was just reminded of from another thread:

The dreaded double FOC @ 2000 18 Penitent Engine build!

Under the WD codex, the most we could have fielded @ 2000 points was 16 while still meeting minimum FOC for double FOC, but now...Muwhahahahahaha!!!

So here is what I have so far:

HQ:

Canoness 65
Canoness 65

Troops:

BSS 60
BSS 60
BSS 60
BSS 60

HS:

Penitent Engines x 3 240
Penitent Engines x 3 240
Penitent Engines x 3 240
Penitent Engines x 3 240
Penitent Engines x 3 240
Penitent Engines x 3 240

Comes in at 1810 with 190 left to spend on weapons/wargear and maybe a Priest or few.

As much as I would loath acquiring another 9 Penitent Engines to make this happen, I may just have to!

Ha!

Nice.
I think I might have sorta looked at this a while back... but then started updating my Sisters extended stuff and then moved on a bit...

With that 190pts I would put Heavy Bolters on the BSS to give some ranged / light AA ability.

Maybe an Aegis or Bastion for a bit more AA?
(Or maybe a Voidshield generator for some shenanigins)

I think the sheer shock value of this army might lead to some dramatic victories.... the first few times.

Maybe if you were going against an all cultist army?

Or an Imperial Knights army, maybe (target saturation!). Or maybe the one other Sisters player in the universe who decided to take 18 Penitent Engines, because that battle would be gloriously insane.

If you are doing double FOC think 6 exorcist, 4 dominion squads w mg in tlmm immos then troops!

I've tried and I just can't get PE's to work on the table. They always die before they get there or get get killed before they swing.

In Kill Team I've had a little better luck with Repentia, but in a normal game they get gunned down like gangsters on Valentine's day.

If only penitent engines would work with promethium relay pipes they'd have a niche role... but those don't allow vehicles to get torrenting flamers :(

Penitent Engines work in one way only - when spammed beyond belief.

9 + max repentia can do ok, each squad good for blending at least one thing (so 6 targets gone), potentially more.

6 units of Penitent Engines I imagine would be good for the same, if not a little more.
Plus that's a LOT of AV11 to have to deal with.

Ha. Pure genius. I would love to try 9 for a laugh but 18 is bonkers. Alas I only have 2 pentient engines so neither will be happening any time soon.

D

I don't think I can put myself through assembling another 9 engines either..

Next time I'm playing apocalypse I'm definitely summoning every sisters player in a 200km radius to bring their penitent engines

So I have a lot of experience with sisters, and I want to play them at some tournaments this summer. I am inexperienced with guard, but they are now both fluffy and effective allies, and I need some help figuring out how to do this.

No dataslates, escalation or stronghold. 2++ rerollable became 2++ rerollable 4++

I expect all of the hard builds, triple knights, screamerstar, ovesa star, taudar, russ-heavy guard...

Going for 1850

Canoness - combi-melta
bss - 2 x melta, combi - melta, immolator w/ tl mm, storm bolter
bss - 2 x melta, combi - melta, immolator w/ tl mm, storm bolter
bss - 2 x melta, combi - melta, immolator w/ tl mm, storm bolter
bss - 2 x melta, combi - melta, immolator w/ tl mm, storm bolter
bss - 2 x melta, combi - melta, immolator w/ tl mm, storm bolter
bss - 2 x melta, combi - melta, immolator w/ tl mm, storm bolter
Exorcist - storm bolter
Exorcist - storm bolter
Exorcist - storm bolter

That is 1395. I would like a manticore, a vendetta with a scoring unit, and a fearless bubblewrap squad for the artillery. I would like to twin link all of the artillery, and would like 3 servo skulls to help with scatter and infiltrators.
I am not opposed to dropping units to a degree, but I want as many scoring unit bearing immolators as I can get in their face.

Help a brother out, will ya?

 Inigo Montoya wrote:
So I have a lot of experience with sisters, and I want to play them at some tournaments this summer. I am inexperienced with guard, but they are now both fluffy and effective allies, and I need some help figuring out how to do this.

No dataslates, escalation or stronghold. 2++ rerollable became 2++ rerollable 4++

I expect all of the hard builds, triple knights, screamerstar, ovesa star, taudar, russ-heavy guard...

Canoness - combi-melta
bss - 2 x melta, combi - melta, immolator w/ tl mm, storm bolter
bss - 2 x melta, combi - melta, immolator w/ tl mm, storm bolter
bss - 2 x melta, combi - melta, immolator w/ tl mm, storm bolter
bss - 2 x melta, combi - melta, immolator w/ tl mm, storm bolter
bss - 2 x melta, combi - melta, immolator w/ tl mm, storm bolter
bss - 2 x melta, combi - melta, immolator w/ tl mm, storm bolter
Exorcist - storm bolter
Exorcist - storm bolter
Exorcist - storm bolter

That is 1395. I would like a manticore, a vendetta with a scoring unit, and a fearless bubblewrap squad for the artillery. I would like to twin link all of the artillery.
I am not opposed to dropping units to a degree, but I want as many scoring unit bearing immolators as I can get in their face.

Help a brother out, will ya?

LOL! I'd love to see how that list does. I'd highly recommend the manticore and sticking a priest with some cheap IG troops to bubble wrap it isn't a bad idea.

Also, I would never torture myself enough to build 9 PE's let alone more. I quit at two. GW would have to make a new model for me to attempt that. If the models were fun to put together believe me, I'd have a ton more.

Do you find the Storm Bolters on the Immolators worth it? Drop them and find a few more pts and you would have aenough pts for a Dominon Squad in another Immolator or Rhino?