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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/08 18:46:36
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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Just a little thought that crossed my mind just now. Basically Overwatch wouldn't be changed beyond the following addition:
"Models who fire Overwatch go at half their base initiative and weapon skill rounded down and fight with during the fight-sub phase during the turn they Overwatched."
Basically makes it so Overwatch now has an offset to the shooting, as the models are shooting at the models who are charging they are less prepared to fight in hand to hand as they would be if they weren't shooting at the time.
No, it doesn't fix Tau, but Tau need an adjustment to Markerlights that makes it so they can't improve Overwatch past BS2 or something.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/08 19:00:39
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Hallowed Canoness
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Unless they have bayonets, at which point they strike at +1 initiative and S because they can be set against the charge while still firing?
Overwatch isn't broken, except that it's not effective enough. Tau are the only ones getting it even halfway right, and even that's through some silly laser designator shenanigans.
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"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/08 19:14:34
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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Furyou Miko wrote:Unless they have bayonets, at which point they strike at +1 initiative and S because they can be set against the charge while still firing?
Overwatch isn't broken, except that it's not effective enough. Tau are the only ones getting it even halfway right, and even that's through some silly laser designator shenanigans.
Take it from someone who has used a bayonet, you don't hold the weapon the same way to swing that thing or stab with it so there is still a delay in shifting your grip to do so.
And Overwatch does not need to be more effective. People are already writing melee off completely in most army lists at this point. If anything the balance needs to go back towards the middle a bit without just outright nerfing snooty units into the ground.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/08 20:06:24
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Dakka Veteran
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I like this penalty, I've thought of something similar myself.
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Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/08 20:29:09
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Confessor Of Sins
WA, USA
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I don't see how Overwatch, outside of Tau, is that massively an impact on the game. At least not to the point of it needing to have some kind of penalty.
I mean, if we do the math, assuming the MEQ baseline (bolter, T4, 3+ armor) and we take say, 1000 overwatch shots, this leads to a total of 27 unsaved wounds will happen. Over 1000 shots, a kill rate of slightly over 2%. I don't run assault armies, but is 2% that massive?
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Ouze wrote:
Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/08 20:42:14
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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curran12 wrote:I don't see how Overwatch, outside of Tau, is that massively an impact on the game. At least not to the point of it needing to have some kind of penalty.
I mean, if we do the math, assuming the MEQ baseline (bolter, T4, 3+ armor) and we take say, 1000 overwatch shots, this leads to a total of 27 unsaved wounds will happen. Over 1000 shots, a kill rate of slightly over 2%. I don't run assault armies, but is 2% that massive?
Now add Divination powers to that which give you full BS on Overwatch, TL weapons and all the other fun things that make Overwatch more successful.
And yes, it's not a -huge- detriment but paired with all the other stuff that nerfs assault units (random charges with no minimum "will charge at least this far" distance, no assaulting out of 3/4 of the transports in the game, and being really expensive when compared to much cheaper shooting units, some even going up in price this edition or not getting the same discounts the regular version gets) there needs to be something to balance things out, even if it's only a little.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/08 21:49:50
Subject: Re:Changing Overwatch
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Agree with curran12, overwatch is generally statistically insignificant and I don't think any changes other than restricting markerlights need to be made. I also think there are better and simpler ways to improve assault.
However, on your proposed rule: Something to note is that the armies that overwatch helps the most (Tau, Guard) are already pretty inferior to the units that are charging them. They are just now hitting marines on 5s vs 4s and still going last, while marines still hit each other on 4s. So, a 17% reduction in chance to do damage in close combat for WS2/3 vs WS4.
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Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/08 22:08:02
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Confessor Of Sins
WA, USA
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ClockworkZion wrote:
Now add Divination powers to that which give you full BS on Overwatch, TL weapons and all the other fun things that make Overwatch more successful.
And yes, it's not a -huge- detriment but paired with all the other stuff that nerfs assault units (random charges with no minimum "will charge at least this far" distance, no assaulting out of 3/4 of the transports in the game, and being really expensive when compared to much cheaper shooting units, some even going up in price this edition or not getting the same discounts the regular version gets) there needs to be something to balance things out, even if it's only a little.
Alright, let's run the math again, same parameters of 1000 S4 overwatch shots at T4 targets with a 3+ save. This time the shots are twin linked.
It jumps to around 50 unsaved wounds, 5%. It is a jump, but I have a hard time seeing how this is the key feature. And as far as psychic powers, you start adding in a percent chance to get that, and a player judgment level in if they would pick that power (I know I'd always default over it, personally).
Frankly, if I can jump to a conclusion, I see your point. You want assault to be better. That's fine. But this is not actually fixing assault, this is just punishing a very small thing to make you think assault is better.
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Ouze wrote:
Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/08 22:36:05
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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It's hardly a straight a punishment, it's instead giving players tactical choice with repercussions instead of handing out a free out-of-turn shooting to units who are already geared to be effective at shooting.
Yes BS1 is a small fee but frankly I don't think it's much of one (and that's not counting Tau who can flat out ignore the issues).
And I admit it doesn't fix Tau and it's not a massive punishing idea, but that's all it was: a spur of the moment idea.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/08 22:39:09
Subject: Re:Changing Overwatch
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Bounding Assault Marine
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If you plan on proposing rules, you may want them to be a little more prepared than "spur of the moment"...
Overwatch is fine. Most complaints go against Tau players, and there are ways to fix them, like Dirge Casters.
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you automatically lose points for using the trite gamer-isms: balanced, meta, Mat Ward, etc. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/08 22:44:43
Subject: Re:Changing Overwatch
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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viewfinder wrote:If you plan on proposing rules, you may want them to be a little more prepared than "spur of the moment"...
Overwatch is fine. Most complaints go against Tau players, and there are ways to fix them, like Dirge Casters.
So basically don't share ideas without a thesis on what the change is and why you're proposing it? Seriously now, this doesn't have to be that restrictive. Sometimes ideas are flops but by shooting them down before they even get posted just because the person just thought them up and didn't spend a week refining them (which is likely last longer than GW spends on most of it's rules) doesn't mean it's not worth getting out there and seeing if people like it, hate it or have ideas on how to improve it.
Plus I recall a LOT of complaints about Overwatch pre-Tau. Looks like the idea is just a little late to get thrown out there as the feelings have mellowed on it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/08 22:54:22
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Dakka Veteran
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@viewfinder:
Hehe damn your wording is annoying... Seems like you think much of yourself since you're not discussing but stating as a fact that Overwatch is fine and giving ClockworkZion some fatherly advice...
I agree that Overwatch may not be a big deal, but it's still a free round of shooting and may be the reason to why the charging unit will not make it into combat - forget the casualty but if you can make the enemy miss the charge it's quite a big deal.
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Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 01:14:28
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Preacher of the Emperor
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ClockworkZion wrote: curran12 wrote:I don't see how Overwatch, outside of Tau, is that massively an impact on the game. At least not to the point of it needing to have some kind of penalty.
I mean, if we do the math, assuming the MEQ baseline (bolter, T4, 3+ armor) and we take say, 1000 overwatch shots, this leads to a total of 27 unsaved wounds will happen. Over 1000 shots, a kill rate of slightly over 2%. I don't run assault armies, but is 2% that massive?
Now add Divination powers to that which give you full BS on Overwatch, TL weapons and all the other fun things that make Overwatch more successful.
And yes, it's not a -huge- detriment but paired with all the other stuff that nerfs assault units (random charges with no minimum "will charge at least this far" distance, no assaulting out of 3/4 of the transports in the game, and being really expensive when compared to much cheaper shooting units, some even going up in price this edition or not getting the same discounts the regular version gets) there needs to be something to balance things out, even if it's only a little.
Hmm. If Overwatch isn't the biggest problem assault units face -- and I think we're all agreeing on that? -- then the best way to rebalance the game between shooty and choppy is to fix one of the other problems. I say take random charge range out behind the barn and shoot it in the head. Units charge as far as they can run, because, duh, you're not strolling towards the enemy. That be a major boost to assault, I would think.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 01:25:28
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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SisterSydney wrote:Hmm. If Overwatch isn't the biggest problem assault units face -- and I think we're all agreeing on that? -- then the best way to rebalance the game between shooty and choppy is to fix one of the other problems. I say take random charge range out behind the barn and shoot it in the head. Units charge as far as they can run, because, duh, you're not strolling towards the enemy. That be a major boost to assault, I would think.
Random charge ranges offset the pre-meauring of the system which in turn offsets differences in the skill of guessing distances and generally makes more sense in a sci-fi game were almost everyone has some kind of range finder in their gear.
That said there does need to be a rebalancing to charge ranges. Perhaps by moving charges to the movement phase and having them done before regular movement (like in fantasy) and then adding that movement distance into the charge (like in Fantasy). So a Marine would charge 2D6+6" unless he was on a bike, had a jump-pack or was a beast in which case he'd charge 2D6+12" (no re-rolls, that charge range is already huge as is then). That way there is some predictability, but it still has a larger threat range to offset the pre-measuring.
Of course, that's all off the top of my head so take it as you will.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 01:42:14
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Preacher of the Emperor
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I still don't see the need for uncertainty in charge ranges at all, though, whether it's introduced by having to guess the distance you need to cross or having to roll the distance you manage to cross.
Yes, in war all things are uncertain, but in a game, for sanity's sake, we make some things fixed values. In 40K 6th edition, I find it odd that regular movement (over open terrain) is a fixed, non-random number, that weapons ranges are fixed, non-random numbers, that vehicles' Flat Out move and Bikes' Turbo-boost are fixed, non-random numbers, but charge distance is a die roll.... and units that can move 6" across the battlefield under fire while still taking enough care to fire non-Heavy weapons can somehow stall out at 2" when they're charging madly for their lives.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 01:42:48
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I honestly can't tell if the OP is trolling or not?
Has the player base reached the point where they are now complaining about only being able to hit on 6's?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/09 01:47:53
In before thread lock. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 01:47:31
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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SisterSydney wrote:I still don't see the need for uncertainty in charge ranges at all, though, whether it's introduced by having to guess the distance you need to cross or having to roll the distance you manage to cross.
Yes, in war all things are uncertain, but in a game, for sanity's sake, we make some things fixed values. In 40K 6th edition, I find it odd that regular movement (over open terrain) is a fixed, non-random number, that weapons ranges are fixed, non-random numbers, that vehicles' Flat Out move and Bikes' Turbo-boost are fixed, non-random numbers, but charge distance is a die roll.... and units that can move 6" across the battlefield under fire while still taking enough care to fire non-Heavy weapons can somehow stall out at 2" when they're charging madly for their lives.
You're running forward and you slip on the slick mud, or the bullets are two thick so you have to dive for cover. There is a valid reason fir it, but I see where you're coming from. The thing is I think a 12" charge guaranteed is too good, while a 6" charge is too easy to avoid with pre-measuring in the game. The optimum thing would likely be a 6"+ d6 charge but I kind of like the idea of units doing it before the movement phase to give the game more of a feeling that everything is happening all at the same time.
Gitsmasher wrote:I honestly can't tell if the OP is trolling or not?
I don't troll. I may be snarky, sarcastic or just a bit angry-sounding at times, but I don't troll.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/09 01:48:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 02:01:25
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Gitsmasher wrote:I honestly can't tell if the OP is trolling or not?
ClockworkZion wrote:I don't troll. I may be snarky, sarcastic or just a bit angry-sounding at times, but I don't troll.
And how is complaining about only being able to hit on sixes not trolling?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/09 02:04:28
In before thread lock. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 02:05:34
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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Gitsmasher wrote:And how is complaining about the only being able to hit on sixes not trolling?
My complaint is not with the hitting with sixes and more with the fact it's a free shooting phase, regardless of how effective you consider it, with no real penalty for doing so (and if you think hitting on 6s is a penalty go assault Lootas why don't ya.  ). It's a no brainer to use and I feel there should be something that makes players have to consider if they should do it or now at the least.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/09 02:06:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 02:09:03
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Airborne Infiltrating Tomcat
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I've had exactly this thought myself in the past, with similar penalties for choosing the overwatch.
The whole mechanic seems to me like a small way to include the inactive player in his opponents turn, without actually adding anything more than rolling an extra couple of dice. If there was a tactical decision to be made, it would feel a bit less pointless.
And people can say it never makes a difference, but time and time again I see charges fail because of a twinlinked/prescience/slightly above average rolling.... a 2% statistic doesn't really mean anything to me when, in game, a unit of space marines manages to hit four times against something squishy that needed the inches those front models brought.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 02:32:41
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Bounding Assault Marine
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Gitsmasher wrote:Gitsmasher wrote:I honestly can't tell if the OP is trolling or not?
ClockworkZion wrote:I don't troll. I may be snarky, sarcastic or just a bit angry-sounding at times, but I don't troll.
And how is complaining about only being able to hit on sixes not trolling?
because this game obviously sucks...
yes, I do expect a little more for a proposal than "this rule is unfair, I want to change it to my way." that's not an explanation, it's a whine.
is overwatch nasty? sometimes and sometimes it makes me re-think some assaults. and quite often, overwatch does nothing at all. it makes more sense that guys in combat, when they see the enemy running at them, to let hammer whatever guns they have. it makes absolutely no sense that their volley tired them so much that they got tired.
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you automatically lose points for using the trite gamer-isms: balanced, meta, Mat Ward, etc. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 02:47:29
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Archmagos Veneratus Extremis
On the Internet
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viewfinder wrote:because this game obviously sucks...
yes, I do expect a little more for a proposal than "this rule is unfair, I want to change it to my way." that's not an explanation, it's a whine.
is overwatch nasty? sometimes and sometimes it makes me re-think some assaults. and quite often, overwatch does nothing at all. it makes more sense that guys in combat, when they see the enemy running at them, to let hammer whatever guns they have. it makes absolutely no sense that their volley tired them so much that they got tired.
It's not a representation of them getting tired, it's a representation of that moment they lose by shooting when the enemy charges in. If the assault phase really is played out in moments not minutes (talking what that minutes of rolling represents that is) than they would be at a disadvantage, even if they're using bayonets as you don't club someone the same way with a rifle as you shoot it (for one you have to move your hand from the trigger to holding the butt of the weapon and your grip on the fore of the gun changes as well), this isn't something that takes a moment, and that moment is enough to catch them more flat-footed than they would have been if they'd just braced to take the charge, or swung at the enemy immediately.
Forgive me for having a sense of realism in our game of fictional plastic people and trying to inject some actual thought into things instead of making them so automatic that there is little point in being more than a random number generator when your opponent declares a charge.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/09 02:48:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 05:11:17
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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ClockworkZion wrote: Furyou Miko wrote:Unless they have bayonets, at which point they strike at +1 initiative and S because they can be set against the charge while still firing?
Overwatch isn't broken, except that it's not effective enough. Tau are the only ones getting it even halfway right, and even that's through some silly laser designator shenanigans.
Take it from someone who has used a bayonet, you don't hold the weapon the same way to swing that thing or stab with it so there is still a delay in shifting your grip to do so.
And Overwatch does not need to be more effective. People are already writing melee off completely in most army lists at this point. If anything the balance needs to go back towards the middle a bit without just outright nerfing snooty units into the ground.
I was under the impression one did not use a bayonet very often because there's a good chance of it getting jammed in your target.
also, he's right, I believe. Tau have fantastic overwatch, but everyone else's overwatch is so fantastically awful that it simply makes for good stories - when was the last time a Tau Player could laud it over a tyranid player when he killed his hive tyrant on overwatch? It's only cool when guardsmen do it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 05:36:24
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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I think that Overwatch should be like Interceptor, no shooting next turn. I also think it should require a Ld check to pull it off (oh hey, Tau and Guard have crappy Ld, who knew). I'd ditch the Wall if Flame for using template weapons normally. Finally, I think it should be full BS but unit counts as having moved even if they stayed still to represent the difficulty in getting the weapons in position in time.
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Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 05:46:01
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Lady of the Lake
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I like it, but maybe have it different for pistol and ccw overwatch? Like they would be excluded from it or receive a lesser penalty than halved initiative. Maybe something like -2 initiative for models overwatching, -1 for models overwatching with a pistol weapon to a minimum of I2 so they will still strike before the I1 weapons? Then of course still have some slower models fighting at their full speed. The weapon skill part is completely fine to me.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/09 05:47:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 05:55:29
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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Well I think if you wanted to change Overwatch you would do it in a way that was easy. Do it like this.
Overwatch is fired after a successful charge is made. Move the models into base contact, then remove any casualties caused by OW. Then proceed through Init steps as normal.
Multiple charges going on? Roll them all, see which ones work, then fire Overwatch as stated above.
That would make charging less of a pain because you would only have to worry about Overwatch if your charge actually worked. Which makes sense if you think about it...
"Hey those guys might run up on us!"
:Blammo:
Makes no sense, especially since OW is a one shot deal and the next guys trying to run up might actually succeed...
"Hey, those guys are actually running up on us!"
:Rat-a-tat-tat:
Makes sense...
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Gets along better with animals... Go figure. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 06:07:37
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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Seeing as Overwatch is intended to createa chance to stop the charge from succeeding, waiting until after the charge succeeds to remove casualties is kind of counter productive.
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Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 06:14:46
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot
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ClockworkZion wrote:Just a little thought that crossed my mind just now. Basically Overwatch wouldn't be changed beyond the following addition:
"Models who fire Overwatch go at half their base initiative and weapon skill rounded down and fight with during the fight-sub phase during the turn they Overwatched."
Basically makes it so Overwatch now has an offset to the shooting, as the models are shooting at the models who are charging they are less prepared to fight in hand to hand as they would be if they weren't shooting at the time.
No, it doesn't fix Tau, but Tau need an adjustment to Markerlights that makes it so they can't improve Overwatch past BS2 or something.
Fixes nothing, overwatch isnt broken, Tau shenanigans and assault charges are the main problem.
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A Dark Angel fell on a watcher in the Dark Shroud silently chanted Vengance on the Fallen Angels to never be Unforgiven |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 06:27:38
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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Jefffar wrote:Seeing as Overwatch is intended to createa chance to stop the charge from succeeding, waiting until after the charge succeeds to remove casualties is kind of counter productive.
Yeah seems like GW has been creating a lot of stuff lately that doesn't work the way they thought it would...
The whole Charge phase seems kind of broken though. There is just so much working against you when trying to charge that it seems like you have to be within 4 or 5 inches to make it work. I don't know though, I just play the game how it's written because it's easier at this point to just laugh at the broken parts and roll through it.
IF I wanted to change Overwatch, that's how I'd do it. You can debate or ignore my blurb at your leisure.
Really though all this is gonna get rewritten next year supposedly so...
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Gets along better with animals... Go figure. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/04/09 07:24:33
Subject: Changing Overwatch
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Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine
Little Rock, Arkansas
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The logic behind overwatch getting a penalty is sound.
If we assume that each round is a very short amount of time, ie enough to fire one missile and reload, then overwatch makes virtually no logical sense at all. The opponent's troops aren't just standing there. They're reloading, or letting their weapon cool down, or what have you.
If we were to assume that the enemy squad has enough time to overwatch, why do they not shoot at things when they aren't being charged? There's plenty of motivation, even without angry monsters running right at you. But for some reason, the rules have it so that running at a guy in an attempt to attack him in melee makes ammo magically appear in his gun. As opposed to just...yknow...shooting at him, in which case he just stays chill and reloads normally. \o.o/ seriously, wth GW?
So the only way to really explain overwatch is guys in extreme panic that for some reason REALLY care about dying in melee, but not dying to close range shooting. Note for extra logic-destruction, that this somehow applies even to fearless and mindless units, but NOT slow and purposeful ones, no matter how easy your gun is to reload. With that in mind, I'll move on to...
...Given that the unit firing their guns more often than they should be due to the panic of proximity, I think I have a better idea. Gets hot! If you overwatch, you're hitting on 6's and hurting on 1's, to reflect guns misfiring, guns overheating, and other "accidents" that occur in the process of trying to quick-draw your guns like you're in the old west.
I also still believe that, at the very least, a unit that overwatched shouldn't be able to fire next round, or maybe can only snapshot then as well. That would sate my need for some logic a lot more than the current "time slows down because you're charging so I get free shots" thing.
Thankfully, as others have said, overwatch, for most armies, is statistically insignificant. So I've been able to live with that mutilation of logic. Only tau have enough backing into the rule to make tides turn on anything except the luckiest rolls.
As has been stated probably 500000 times in various boards and LGS's, assault is weak in 6th because several factors, ranging from inability to assault from vehicles even when they don't move, casualties from the front, more prevalent good guns, more prevalent good AP, more prevalent ignore cover, overwatch, nerf of furious charge and loss of the assault-after-run from fleet just off of memory, entered the game.
They basically walked up to the see-saw of shooting and close combat and dropped a 500 lb. guy on one side.
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