Saving Guardsman Ryan: Imperial Navy landing ships, including a Baneblade carrier....

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**SisterSydney**

With a month to go before the 70th anniversary of the D-Day landing (which my father played a small part in planning), with Sgt. Smudge talking about drop regiments, and with lots of lively discussion of my own homebrewed Sororitas Valkyrie variants, I felt inspired to finally post some ideas I had for Imperial Guard dropships -- or rather, what the Imperial Navy crams Guardsmen and their vehicles into when it's time to land them en masse. Not for them are the lightning strikes with massive firepower practiced by the Marines: These are big, ugly aerospacecraft packed with ordinary, frightened, and often heroic human beings.

Remember the enormous dropship in the background of the cover of the 5th edition Guard codex, with countless Guardsmen pouring out? (It's at the end of the "13th Black Crusade" section of the new Astra Militarum 'dex). These things -- especially the Overlord -- are as close as you can get on the tabletop (well, outside of a game of Epic).

As always, I'm eager for comment, especially critiques of what's crazy and what's undercosted (or overcosted, I guess).

[EDIT: Based on all the great input I've gotten in this thread so far, I've redesigned the the Juno lander as a 350-point, 51-passenger superheavy (with no ceramite). A redesigned Overlord is coming soon. Every comment helps me make these homebrews better, so fire at will!]

Juno Assault Lander squadron: 200 points
The Juno is the Imperial Navy's standard dropship, ugly, rugged, and reliable, able to embark several squads of infantry or a single armored vehicle and deliver them on top of enemy lines.

Rules

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Costing:

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Overlord Heavy Assault Lander: 865 points
The Overlord can carry a hundred Guardsmen, a platoon of tanks, or a single Baneblade-class superheavy. While hardly the Imperial Navy's largest landing craft, it is the largest the fleet will routinely land under enemy fire, making it a favorite of Astra Miltarum commanders seeking to do what the Guard does best: Throw masses of men and metal at the enemy as fast as possible. Indeed, the Overlord is so large by the standards of anyone but the Navy that it can flatten enemy infantry and crush tanks as it lands while keeping its passengers safe inside -- until, of course, the assault ramp drops and opens the door to hell.

Rules

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Costing

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**Peregrine**

Two issues:

1) Front AV 13 is worth much more than you think. You've given it to the Juno for free, and to the Overlord for pretty much free. Remember that most AA weapons are STR 6-7, which means that going from AV 12 to AV 13 is a huge difference in durability. AV 12 flyers are already very hard to kill and frustrating for a lot of people, AV 13 would just be a nightmare to deal with and they're not going to have any interest in playing against it.

2) The Juno needs to be a superheavy. Rules-wise it could be debated, but that much transport capacity means a model that is much larger than any non-superheavy flyer.

**AnomanderRake**

At thirty-six model transport? Definitely a superheavy.

**koooaei**

SisterSydney wrote:
Move 1 point of armor from rear to front: 0

It's definitely worth more than 0. Imagine what'd be if wagonz were 12-12-12 and not 14-12-10. They'd not be used.

**Ashiraya**

Yeah, if you're going to have that much armour, firepower and transport on the Juno it's got to be a superheavy. Ceramite plating? On a standard-issue vehicle?

**SisterSydney**

Well, there's ceramite on the Stormraven, which is the basis, and that's not a superheavy.

Good point about frontal AV:13. I'm going off Ovion's linear system, which doesn't account for nuances -- as he warns be user, it requires adjustment and judgment. In fact, given the point Peregrine made about AA weapon strengths being lower (since the high S weapons tend to be blasts), and since there are so few (no?) fliers with AV:13, I might just scrap that and give them both AV:12.

I'll ponder whether the Juno's 36-passenger capacity makes it count as a (relatively small) superheavy. It would need another three Hull points, then, which I have no idea how to cost, and the superheavy package of special rules is expensive for what I want to be an affordable "drop 'em and go" landing craft. It's basically a big box with wings -- maybe I need to strip some weapons out to "make room" for the passengers?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S.: I mean removing the TL lascannon specifically -- so it would just have a TL multilaser for self-defense (maybe with Skyfire so it can't even hit ground targets?) and the Hellstrikes or rocket pods for one salvo to clear the way for its passengers. Then it's clearly not a gunship, and maybe the fact that a non-superheavy fits so many passengers becomes more palatable.

**Ashiraya**

The Valkyrie can also travel from orbit to surface and back without ceramite plating. Presumably it is a SM-special thing, very much far from standard issue. Come on, you call it 'ugly, rugged standard issue' and then give it super-special forces issue high quality plating?

Compare it to the Thunderhawk to see if it should be a superheavy.

You want it to not be superheavy so you can have it 'normal' but you give it SM-issue plating? Almost seems like wanting to eat the cake and keep it to me.

No really, remove Ceramite Plating. Then you can make it a superheavy or drop down on its armour, weapons and reduce transport to 20 models / 1 tank / 2 sentinels and you are golden.

**AnomanderRake**

Ashiraya wrote:
The Valkyrie can also travel from orbit to surface and back without ceramite plating. Presumably it is a SM-special thing, very much far from standard issue. Come on, you call it 'ugly, rugged standard issue' and then give it super-special forces issue high quality plating?

Compare it to the Thunderhawk to see if it should be a superheavy.

You want it to not be superheavy so you can have it 'normal' but you give it SM-issue plating? Almost seems like wanting to eat the cake and keep it to me.

No really, remove Ceramite Plating. Then you can make it a superheavy or drop down on its armour, weapons and reduce transport to 20 models / 1 tank / 2 sentinels and you are golden.

I might suggest more than two Sentinels seeing as the Sky Talon (a Valkyrie variant) can haul two.

**Jefffar**

To be honest I think you are starting too small. The Juno lander should be based on the Thunderhawk while the Overlord should be closer to a Tau Manta in capabilities. Even then, both are smaller than the big mommas in the illustration.

**SisterSydney**

Yeah, the ones in the illustration seem to be carrying hundreds of troops, if not thousands (and have ludicrous amounts of headroom, suggesting they could fit a Titan).

As for ceramite: are we sure the Valkyrie is capable of going space to surface? I think so but don't know the fluff enough to be sure. If it is, then I guess ceramite is just for high-angle-of-attack "coming straight in like a freakin' meteor" descents, which would definitely make it a Marine-only thing, while the Navy would come in at a shallower angle that's easier on the hull.

**Furyou Miko**

Yes, the Valkyrie can absolutely act as a sub-orbital lander. It's occasionally used as a ship-to-ship shuttle, too, and even for boarding according to one questionable source.

I'll admit, my first thought when I read the Juno's stats, after reading its concept and inspiration was, "Why is this not a super-heavy?"

It's basically the Imperial Navy's answer to the Tau Orca, which is also a 36-capacity suborbital transport. It's also about 200 points with just a single burst cannon.

**SisterSydney**

The Orca carries 57 models, actually, according to my copy of Imperial Armour Aeronautica, with 9 hull points, and it's 400 points. The Juno and Orca are both basically boxes with wings, but the Juno's a smaller and less sturdy box.

As for Valkyrie being space-to-surface capable, awesome, I'll go ahead & delete ceramite from both these units. Any ideas on how many points that would save?

**Furyou Miko**

About 30? Dunno.

Also not sure about the Valkyrie's Surface-to-Orbit capability, I've not read anything about them being able to go back up. My main source for them being used as landers is Kastorel-Novem, which... well, went about as well as most Elysian missions in Forge World books.

**AnomanderRake**

Furyou Miko wrote:
About 30? Dunno.

Also not sure about the Valkyrie's Surface-to-Orbit capability, I've not read anything about them being able to go back up. My main source for them being used as landers is Kastorel-Novem, which... well, went about as well as most Elysian missions in Forge World books.

This has been a subject of much debate; some lore says they can, some lore (and Aeronautica Imperialis) says they can't. I'm of the they can't camp through the simple explanation that the rear cabin on the model isn't sealed (it's either got open doors or closed doors with an open window in them).

**Ashiraya**

I assume the doors can be sealed.

**SisterSydney**

If you can't make the doors air-tight, you have a big problem in chemical/biological warfare scenarios -- or in the polluted air over some hive cities, for that matter.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, here's the Juno as a super-heavy: 300 points, 6 Hull Points, 36 passengers -- and you can take a squadron of three in your Lords of War slot.

Juno assault lander squadron: 300 points

Force Organization: any Imperial army may take a squadron of 1-3 Junos as a single Lord of War choice

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Costing

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**AnomanderRake**

That's what gas masks are for.

No serious objections on the rules beyond converting from infantry transport to vehicle transport being strange and fuzzy and I might suggest allowing the dropship to carry more than one Chimera (precedent: Thunderhawk carries thirty, Thunderhawk Transporter loses that and the big gun for two Rhinos or a Land Raider).

**SisterSydney**

The "Dreadnought = 6 passengers" thing is completely pulled out of my... out of the air. Yeah, the air.

"Vehicles = 10 models per hull point," by contrast, is actually derived from something, namely the (ridiculously huge) Tau Manta, whose rules say one vehicle = 30 models. Yes, clearly a Leman Russ is a lot bigger than a Chimera, even though both have 3 HP, and maybe I should rewrite the rules to let it carry two APCs, but then you get into listing individual vehicles and how much space they take up and the rules get convoluted.....

**Furyou Miko**

Hmm, one tank instead of 36... I'd say that one tank instead of 24 would make more sense. Other than that, much better.

**SisterSydney**

Based on the Manta, "1 tank instead of 30" is the rule of thumb, but I'm assuming you don't want to cram six guys in with the tank lest it, um, shift in flight or something.

**AnomanderRake**

My objection is more on the basis of the Guard org chart where using this plane a full squadron of superheavies is required to drop a minimum mechanized platoon into battle.

**SisterSydney**

Good point. I could up the passenger/crew capacity again -- maybe to 40 models? 50? -- and say two Chimeras or one Leman Russ, the way the USAF C-17 can carry two M2 Bradley IFVs or one M1 Abrams MBT.

At 3 points per passenger, even going up from 36 models to 51 is still a manageable 15x3 = 45 points, and now you can carry a full conscript platoon plus priest or commissar to keep them from running! Hello Forlorn Hope!

**Furyou Miko**

AnomanderRake wrote:
My objection is more on the basis of the Guard org chart where using this plane a full squadron of superheavies is required to drop a minimum mechanized platoon into battle.

I might agree with you, except for one thing;

The Navy have a different take on the meaning of "super-heavy". While in standard 40k / Apocalypse terms, a Super-heavy is a massive investment of points and effort, in Naval terms these things are still tiny. THey're smaller than a Fury Interceptor, which is the Navy's standard fighter craft. Basically: In 40k terms, this is a super-heavy. In Naval terms, it's a cute little boat.

These aren't the standard Navy dropships, either. These are the light, nippy craft that can be used to make battlefield insertions - something the Guard are notoriously against in the fluff, considering it to be a sign of a panicked tactical breakdown.

The Bulk Landers used to deploy the Guard in most of the literature can carry between a Company and a whole Regiment. They're beyond Manta-sized, and are known for basically being capable of going up, and coming down, with very little lateral movement.

**SisterSydney**

Holy gak, the Navy's "standard interceptor" is twice the size of a Thunderhawk?

**Furyou Miko**

Yes.

**AnomanderRake**

SisterSydney wrote:
Holy gak, the Navy's "standard interceptor" is twice the size of a Thunderhawk?

It has to be able to blow up the gigantic bombers that have to be able to carry the ordnance large enough to threaten capital ships that make Star Destroyers look like someone's pleasure yacht, so yes, scale is big.

The problem with requiring a squadron of superheavies to carry a minimum armoured platoon is less one of "that's too many superheavies!" and more a mixture of the question of why this is the only squadronable superheavy in the game and why the Navy's going to build an entire gunship to carry a single tank when maintenance/logistics/good sense (you want your troops to drop together and fight together, not drop piecemeal and fight alone) would suggest using a single dropship to carry significantly more troops so you can ensure they all get to the ground in the same place. It's the philosophy behind the Manta, drop a dozen planes with a small army on each instead of a hundred planes with a squad on each, the logistics of managing the planes is less complicated and the troops are more organized when they hit the ground (we can't all be hyper-disciplined Space Marines or reliably psychically linked to a central command with precognitive powers like the Eldar).

**Scipio Africanus**

SisterSydney wrote:
Holy gak, the Navy's "standard interceptor" is twice the size of a Thunderhawk?

Compare the tau manta to the thunderhawk.

**Grey Templar**

I think the difference between a Valk and a Stormraven in respects to the Ceramite Plating is because the Stormraven enters the atmosphere at a much steeper angle than the Valkl. Thus it is reinforced with stronger armor and heat absorption.

Anyway, I'd actually make the Overlord similar to a Drop Pod with its Smash landing rule. It comes in on turn 1 from reserves and makes a single Smash Landing. Then it has the option to disembark its passengers. After that, its just a Super Heavy Flyer.

Otherwise its just going to repeatedly smash your poor opponent into the ground.

**Furyou Miko**

It can only do it every other turn, and it's not that great, damage wise, that it makes up for its use as a transport.

**SisterSydney**

Further refinements to the Juno, incorporating more of the good feedback from this thread: higher passenger capacity & ability to carry one tank (Leman Russ or Predator-size), two APCs (Chimera, Rhino, etc) or three lighter vehicles (Taurox, Sentinel, Dreadnought). It's still a squadron of 1-3 per Lord of War slot, but that's because (a) it has way less firepower than other Lords of War, it's an enabler and (b) I want people to be able to drop a Guard company in it.

Juno assault lander squadron: 350 points

Force Organization: any Imperial army may take a squadron of 1-3 Junos as a single Lord of War choice

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Costing

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