Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas

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**SisterSydney**

Okay, that's actually pretty fething cool.

"Hey, Vasquez, anyone ever mistake you for a man?" -- only with an entire army of teenage girls.

**AnomanderRake**

So...the S3 that lets Sisters and Guard characters use bolters?

**Furyou Miko**

AnomanderRake wrote:
So...the S3 that lets Sisters and Guard characters use bolters?

The same S3 that lets a knife have the same stopping power as an assault rifle, yes.

**Mr Morden**

Psienesis wrote:
koooaei wrote:
Novice should be ws2 bs2. How come your teenage girls fight like a trained imperial guardsman. Ld6 would be reasonable too. One thing is when you get brainwashed at Scola Progenium and think you're ld10 and ATSKNF. And on a real battlefield when the bullets are flying and you're covered with brains blood and guts of your merry friends, it's another experience.

Because the Schola also trains Commissars and the Storm Trooper Regiment. This is a private military-religious academy that produces some of the hardest, all-human fighters the Imperium fields. A Schola Graduate *is* a better soldier than a rank-and-file Guardsman.

Indeed, at the Schola they carry out live firing exercises and use prisoners as targets as well as for practice in interrogation / torture techniques.

I'd go with

Ws 3, BS 3, S 3, T 3, A1 I 3, Ld 7

I almost feel that the opposite should be true for Novices - that you loose a VP if you loose the squad - as the Canoness will not be pleased

**SisterSydney**

Losing a VP for losing the unit is a very interesting idea. How would it play out in a game, though? The only examples I can think of are Slay The Warlord and (I think) Cypher -- both of which are (usually) high-power characters, not 8 ppm infantry.

**BoomWolf**

Losing a VP for losing the unit will be bad unless they are exceptionally cheap for what they do, and you don't really need more than one such unit. (see ethereal)

After all, lets face it cheap units in MeQ (or near MeQ) armies are mostly there to be cheap objectives holders, and not for being a horde.

**Mr Morden**

Maybe:

Free unit of up to 9 Novices and a Mistress- if you loose them then you loose the VP plus any relevant Kill points etc?

Make them a unique choice - one per army to reflect their rarity?

helps that narrative element that you actually don't want to get them killed?

**xalvissx**

The new Novice squad is certainly more interesting than ever before

About Crisis of Faith, I suggest changing Preferred Enemy to Hatred, or replace both special rules to Zealot, to represent the BURNING HATRED of the Novices for those who kill their mentor, and also allow them to stay around and cause damage even after the Mistress is dead.

And if the squad fails its Morale Check, does any attached IC lose her Act of Faith and Shield of Faith ? Or just the Novices ?

And I think that if there is one or more Canoness in a detachment, then an equal number of Novice Squads can be taken without using up FOC slot. How does it sound ?

Psienesis wrote:
SisterSydney wrote:
Thanks. Never too late to comment! I envision the harness more like Vasquez's .... machinegun-holding-thing in Aliens, so in melee it might be as much a hindrance as a help, though. S:3 is just what normal human folks get standard.

In the Imperium, I would imagine that the strength-enhancing harness is similar in design and function to a servo-arm... which most definitely grants melee bonuses.

ETA: To expand on that a bit, I imagine it appears as a metal frame that locks around the Novice's torso, with an articulated limb that her real arm straps into. It follows her range of motion through simple pressure-plates, and ends in a gauntlet-like hand. The servo-motors, hydraulic musculature and similar systems grant this thirteen year old girl the ability to heft, brace and otherwise manipulate a boltgun. Punching someone with this machine of iron and steel would be like hitting someone with a pneumatic hammer... which is extremely capable of shattering skulls.

Well, look at the servitors: They can lug heavy bolters, plasma cannons and the like around, and are more machine than man, but they are still S3. And the normal SoB wears Power Armour that certainly boost her strength beyond that of harnesses that the Novices are provide, but are still S3, so...yeah.

**Psienesis**

Hrm, maybe place a cap on the number of Novitiate Squads you can field, in total, and the opposing side gains 1 VP for every full squad that it either wipes out or forces to flee the table, while you gain 1 VP for every one that survives the battle? That way, there's some back-and-forth on that.

**SisterSydney**

And if the squad fails its Morale Check, does any attached IC lose her Act of Faith and Shield of Faith ? Or just the Novices ?

Oooh, good catch. I should make it clear that ONLY the novices are affected, not attached ICs.

I'm almost as leery about messing with FOC limits (such as they are in this edition) as I am about VP, though.

**Psienesis**

Well, look at the servitors: They can lug heavy bolters, plasma cannons and the like around, and are more machine than man, but they are still S3. And the normal SoB wears Power Armour that certainly boost her strength beyond that of harnesses that the Novices are provide, but are still S3, so...yeah.

S3 is a really, really wide range of human ability. It encompasses just about everything from "fat schlub in the street" to "Arnold Schwarzenegger, Mr. Universe". Only the super-weak (like a 5 year old child not from Fenris, Catachan, or Cadia) or the limbless get S2, while S4+ is truly super-human strength.

Servitors, of course, replace weak flesh with muscles of cable and pistons.

**koooaei**

Psienesis wrote:

Servitors, of course, replace weak flesh with weak muscles of cable and pistons.

**Mr Morden**

Psienesis wrote:
Hrm, maybe place a cap on the number of Novitiate Squads you can field, in total, and the opposing side gains 1 VP for every full squad that it either wipes out or forces to flee the table, while you gain 1 VP for every one that survives the battle? That way, there's some back-and-forth on that.

I like that a lot

You could even make a SC Veteran Drill mistress who (Despite concerns by her Order) sees that the only way to truly harden her charges is to take them to the fields of battle and bloody them.

**SisterSydney**

I'm intrigued but worried you'd get people just camping Novices in a fortification in their backfield near an objective, and never using them any other way. Are there any other units that have a similar "bonus VP for keeping me alive" thing?

**Mr Morden**

SisterSydney wrote:
I'm intrigued but worried you'd get people just camping Novices in a fortification in their backfield near an objective, and never using them any other way. Are there any other units that have a similar "bonus VP for keeping me alive" thing?

Thats kinda where they should be?

Small units of short range firepower T3 troops with medium armour? I see them as being brought to a conflict in a number of different circumstances:

1. Desperation: the Temple is going to be overun - "Rejoice for you can serve the Emperor with bolt and flame, Come let us join in him in the Light!"
2. Training: "Girls you must see the battlefield for yourself, smell it, touch it, live it - now stick close as we follow our Sisters in battle."
3. Mistake (Destiny?): "Which stupid Fether said this area was clear of the enemy"
4. The enemy drop onto a "safe" world or location and the Novices are the only ones there. "Mistress, the town has gone silent, the Vox is dead, what shall we do? "The Emperors work, child, the Emperors work"

Forging the narrative

Whilst Sacrifice is part of their service to the Emperor I personally don't like the idea of Novices used /though of in a similar way mine clearing Gretchin or the worst kind of sacrifical Guard forces.

**SisterSydney**

Heh. Love your forged narratives (especially No. 3, with the screw-ups and the swearing). I worry that making the Novice Squad's survival worth 2 VP (net) will make it hard to play any of those but No. 1. Castling up and watching objectives is definitely a good role for Novices, but you shouldn't be penalized for putting them in your battle line supporting and supported by other Sisters (No. 2) or even making an army where all your Troops are Novices, Frateris, and other last-ditch choices (No. 4).

At 8 ppm, I don't see people treating them as expendable -- definitely not when there are 3 ppm Frateris Rabble around.

Do any other units exist -- besides Warlords and Cypher -- that are worth VP outside of a kill-points mission, and how do they affect play?

**BoomWolf**

AFAIK there is no unit in the game that grants bonus VP to the owner outside warlord traits, and the double-sided cypher thing.

There are a few that grant VP to their killers. but even that is only within HQ. (that I am aware of)

**Furyou Miko**

Lone Wolves grant the enemy VP if they survive - or used to, at least, I haven't looked at the recent rules.

**SisterSydney**

I think the new Space Wolves codex omitted that rule....

**BoomWolf**

Yep, its now just "cant score"

**SisterSydney**

Below are the (final?) EDIT: NOPE! revised rules for all three units: Novices, Throne bikers, and Vigil infiltrators, all drawing on the discussion in this thread. Many thanks to everyone who's contributed -- and don't stop commenting now, I'm eager to know if these versions work for most of you or not.

[EDIT: Re-revised Novices are here, based on further suggestions & AtoMaki's awesome playtesting

I've not taken some of the more tricky suggestions for the Novices -- e.g. they don't do anything special to VP or the FOC -- but since the previous revision, I did replace Preferred Enemy with Hatred, as per folks' suggestions. This unit is very different from the original version I posted at the top of this thread.

Vigils are also significantly revised -- a cleaner Act of Faith and some toned down unit SRs -- while Thrones basically stick with the revised Sororitas Bike rules I posted a while back and just get recosted accordingly.

[EDIT: Oh yeah, I moved the fluff to the end of the unit description instead of the beginning, since that seems to be the way Codexes are laid out now.]
[EDIT 2: I also re-revised the rules for Vigils on Wednesday morning.]

*

Novice Squad: 95 points (Troops):
Teenaged holy warriors in training
Sororitas Novice WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:7 Sv:4+/6++
Mistress of Novices WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++

Spoiler:

Design Notes:

Spoiler:

*

Vigil Squad: 125 points (Elites)
Sororitas Infiltrators
Vigil WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:1 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++
Superior WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++

Spoiler:

Design Notes:

Spoiler:

*

Sororitas Bike

Spoiler:

Design notes:

Spoiler:

Throne Squad: 70 points (Fast Attack)
Sororitas scout bikers
Throne WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:4 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:8 Sv:3+/6++
Superior WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:4 W:1 I:3 A:1 Ld:8 Sv:3+/6++
Veteran Superior WS:3 BS:4 S:3 T:4 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/6++

Spoiler:

Design notes:

Spoiler:

**Psienesis**

Well, you could castle them, yes...

But with Maelstrom Missions being what they are, camping a few of your squads in the backfield is potentially denying you needed VP. These kids aren't here in a vacuum, and they're not free troops. Given the rather messy way Maelstrom works, these girls will probably need to unass that bunker and go for a hike downfield to grab another objective, or otherwise actively participate in the battle.

All of this, of course, very much depends on the style of game you're playing.

Also... indirect fire is a thing. Just sayin'.

**SisterSydney**

Whoops, Psienesis and I mutually ninja'd each other -- see my revised rules for the Novices, Thrones, & Vigils two posts up. I agree with Psienesis' posts about Maelstrom (which I'm still trying to wrap my head around). Maybe instead of making Novices give a bonus VP for survival -- something I'm still leery of -- I should make up a special Maelstrom mission card where you get points for "blooding" them in combat without getting them killed?

Actually, the Sisters codex predates Maelstrom, so it doesn't even have a custom set of Tactical Objectives cards. Maybe that needs to be a thing?

**Psienesis**

That needs to be a thing from GW, specifically, I think. I mean, Maelstrom is kinda of a big thing with their current ruleset... obviously not the only way to play, but seems like their "main" game concept.

Though having some Sisters-specific ones would not be terrible.

ETA: I like the re-write, and I think at 95 points for the basic squad of Novices, they're pricey enough to not be auto-includes for objective-camping or AoF batteries (in a 1K points game, a single squad is almost 10% of your points, after all... 6% at a 1500 points game... that's not an insignificant amount ).. but offer enough potential value to fit in nicely with a themed army, let alone ideas for all kinds of narrative games.

Minor editing points, on the Vigils:

"Only the most cool-headed and cold-blooded Sisters are chosen for the Vigils, a elite which originated in the notoriously rational Order of the Sacred Rose."

Need a noun somewhere in the bolded part. Also, replace "a" with "an"... "an elite something-or-other". Minor quibble.

The Thrones should change the Wargear section to "bike-mounted stormbolter", as that is mentioned as a swap-out item later in the Options section.

The fluff description of "Loose the Fateful Lightning" is a work of art. Should probably be accompanied by a Wu-Tang soundtrack.

**AtoMaki**

Okay, so we did something like 5+ test battles with the Novices, and we concluded that:
- The unit itself is okay for the price. Maybe they should have an option for a heavy weapon too, because heavy bolters/heavy flamers would be nice. Oh, and maybe option for a bolt pistol + ccw combo instead of the boltgun.
- The Crisis of Faith is a pretty strange rule. In one battle, the Novices ran off the table because of it... and they dragged the Canoness in the unit with themselves. It was kinda-sorta LOLastic.
- The Little Sisters special rule is redundant, it wasn't used even once. The Sisters were either wiped GG no RE before they could use it, or there were no initiates at all in the combat. There was another annoying thing too with this special rule: low-Initiative opponents couldn't rigger it in a meaningful way because they were killing Novices after the initiates had already made their attacks.
- We talked about the fluff too, and we aren't exactly sure whether the conception work in canon. Novices are trained in the Order's convent, that is usually a pretty-darn safe place (Ophelia, Terra, places like that), so fighting can't just "catch" them. But if they catch the fight, then I guess the initiates are already okay with the situation (otherwise, they wouldn't bring the novices along in the first place).

Overall, we would remove 'Little Sisters' and change 'Crisis of Faith' to only ban Acts of Faith (no retreating or loss of SoF). Otherwise, the unit is good.

**SisterSydney**

Awesome. Many thanks. Sounds like I can delete "Little Sisters" altogether, then.

As for Crisis of Faith having LOLtastic results -- I like that, actually. How on earth did they manage to flub the Leadership test with a Ld10 Canoness around, though?

**SisterSydney**

AtoMaki, waitasec: which version of the "Little Sisters" rule were you using? The old one that is only triggered when a novice dies, or the revised one that simply requires novices to be in combat (ie in mortal peril) ?

**J3f**

AtoMaki wrote:
Okay, so we did something like 5+ test battles with the Novices, and we concluded that:
- The unit itself is okay for the price. Maybe they should have an option for a heavy weapon too, because heavy bolters/heavy flamers would be nice. Oh, and maybe option for a bolt pistol + ccw combo instead of the boltgun.
- The Crisis of Faith is a pretty strange rule. In one battle, the Novices ran off the table because of it... and they dragged the Canoness in the unit with themselves. It was kinda-sorta LOLastic.
- The Little Sisters special rule is redundant, it wasn't used even once. The Sisters were either wiped GG no RE before they could use it, or there were no initiates at all in the combat. There was another annoying thing too with this special rule: low-Initiative opponents couldn't rigger it in a meaningful way because they were killing Novices after the initiates had already made their attacks.
- We talked about the fluff too, and we aren't exactly sure whether the conception work in canon. Novices are trained in the Order's convent, that is usually a pretty-darn safe place (Ophelia, Terra, places like that), so fighting can't just "catch" them. But if they catch the fight, then I guess the initiates are already okay with the situation (otherwise, they wouldn't bring the novices along in the first place).

Overall, we would remove 'Little Sisters' and change 'Crisis of Faith' to only ban Acts of Faith (no retreating or loss of SoF). Otherwise, the unit is good.

You'd probably prefer my novices. They only have Shield of Faith and they're on the battlefield because a ~~Wizard~~ Inquisitor did it.

They're part of the Inquisitorial Guard squad in my Codex Sisters of Battle: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/609583.page#7102148

**Nevelon**

Can the novices emulate St. Celestine?

**AtoMaki**

SisterSydney wrote:
AtoMaki, waitasec: which version of the "Little Sisters" rule were you using? The old one that is only triggered when a novice dies, or the revised one that simply requires novices to be in combat (ie in mortal peril) ?

Both. The second version was a little bit more convenient as it eliminated the problem with low-initiative opponents, but it didn't help that much. Guess' it is just too rare for multiple Sister units to get stuck in the same combat in the same time, because the army mechanic doesn't really support this situations (squads are too spread out).