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Once i get the Covens 'dex next payday I'll look again, but im theoryhammering the idea of x10grots with a haemy w/ wwp for shenanigans.

Still not sure why everyone is all about the liquifiers though? I'm personally not a fan of the variable ap and s3 just seems a bit weak to me?

Cambonimachine wrote:
Once i get the Covens 'dex next payday I'll look again, but im theoryhammering the idea of x10grots with a haemy w/ wwp for shenanigans.

Still not sure why everyone is all about the liquifiers though? I'm personally not a fan of the variable ap and s3 just seems a bit weak to me?

10D3 wall of death?

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Cambonimachine wrote:
Once i get the Covens 'dex next payday I'll look again, but im theoryhammering the idea of x10grots with a haemy w/ wwp for shenanigans.

Still not sure why everyone is all about the liquifiers though? I'm personally not a fan of the variable ap and s3 just seems a bit weak to me?

10D3 wall of death?

Depends what charges, its 20 hits on average, so 6 wounds against marines, 3 wounds against T5 to 6, and no wounds against T7+ but that's 500pts worth of Grotes. And without a rule like battle focus the WWP drop doesn't make it really worth it, especially at 50ppm + haemy w/WWP.

I'd rather spend the 505pts on 10 D-scythe wraithguard and Iyanden spiritseer with spirit stones. Much more effective, guaranteed ap2, causes instant death and can hurt tanks.

Oh see I was doing it purely for the CC punch. and its only 350pts of grots which is still an absurd number given how much other stuff i could get for it. Never said it was competitive... actually come to think of it can you even fit 10 grot bases +1 under a pie plate?

I'd rather spend the 505pts on 10 D-scythe wraithguard and Iyanden spiritseer with spirit stones. Much more effective, guaranteed ap2, causes instant death and can hurt tanks.

But they are also much easier to wipe off the map, and not nearly as punchy in CC.

Has the coven thing come out already?

I know they're were some nasty formations in that, that can be turned into Deathstars.
Specifically that unit of Haemy and Talos or something like that.


I think these are the rumoured formations

1 - urien or haemy plus 2 units of grots - d6 roll at start of game for grots - +1S, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, 4+ FNP
2 - 1 haemy, 1 chronos, 2 units of wracks - all wracks gain precision strike, wracks treat turn 1 higher for pfp. if haemy is the warlord he gets trait 4 automatically
3 - 2 units of wracks in 2 venoms - if a unit in this formation scores first blood, gain D3 vp rather than 1. Wracks must start embarked an in reserve. Deployed turn 1 via deep strike
4 - unit of 5 Talos - gain scout. Score an extra vp for any non vehicle unit killed in combat
5 - 1 haemy, 1 Chronos, 1 Talos - form a single unit. Characters may not join it outside of this formation. Talos and chronos gain +1ws and init. If haemy is warlord, gain trait 1 automatically
6 - 1 haemy, 3 units of wracks with raiders. Master of pain from haemy confers to all units in this formation within 12". Warlord trait 5 if haemy is warlord

7 - all 6 formations as above in 1 formation - called the carnival of pain. Urien form formation 1 has his master of pain rule confer to whole formation. All non vehicles reroll 1's to wound in combat

That's the part that stands out to me for some abuse issues. Also that's like a ridiculous amount of points I bet anything that the all 6 formations is a bit different and meets the requirements of all so like if you have 3 Wrack units then you've met the 2 Wrack requirement of the other formation or something.

Otherwise that's a 2k formation.

Number 3 though let's you set nothing on the board so you can basically have an alpha strike on turn two, dunno if people noticed that. So play with that formation and the Real Space Raiders and drop in on everyone. You could even just set a Comm Relay nearby let them drop in and run over to it so you can reroll reserves.

It's not wyches, it's just Coven, but yes, it's out.

It's pretty good, too.

GW says 11th.

What's the actual rules for Carnival of Pain Formation?

I played another list with Wyches last night and they generally did well. My oppponent was Necrons (3x3 wraith list, 1500 pts). I couldn't roll a 3+ jink save for anything so my Raiders all wrecked by turn two and I took some heavy casualties, however I was able to take the fight to him and keep him fully occupied while I dominated maelstrom objectives. I would have won except on turn 5 he drew "destroy any unit", "destroy any vehicle", and 'destroy any flyer" and my Razorwing Jetfighter was on his side of the map with 1 HP left, *boom*, 3 VPs for him to get the Draw.

I ran two 5x Wyches (naked) w/Venom, and a 8x Wych, Hekatrix, haywire, Hydra w/Raider unit. All three of the units made it into CC, although the large unit got pinned in a vehicle wreck turn two and didn't make it into CC until turn four, however it still had 7 models in it. The combat drug was +1 attack so they were killing 'Crons.

The large Wych squad assaulted a unit of 3x Wraiths that were eating Kabalites on an objective and tore them up. It was turn 4 so they were S4 with furious charge and wiped the wraiths (with a little Kabalite help) after just two turns. 29 S4 attacks (plus a few reroll to wound) on the charge from just seven Wyches... Only one wraith survived I6 and then it died too on my opponent's turn which was perfect. No Wyches even died, it was easy.

The other wych squads did okay but had lesser results. One fled combat against immortals on the second turn and failed to regroup for two turns. The other won its CC against a 5x warrior squad after a sweep but then got shot up and failed morale too. I think the Hekatrix might turn out to be important for me in order to get that Ld point. It was cool seeing Wyches get shot by AP5 guns and then survive with FNP though. When they get a 5+ cover and 5+ FNP they're actually somewhat durable against small arms fire.

It's nice to see Wyches are performing well, considering they lost their haywire Grenades (should never had have it imo, they are Cc fighters fluff wise)

 Frozocrone wrote:
It's nice to see Wyches are performing well, considering they lost their haywire Grenades (should never had have it imo, they are Cc fighters fluff wise)

So assault marines shouldnt have Krak Grenades?


I think the issue is that haywire grenades are too good. They should have been made 4+ to glance, no chance to pen and then still 1-2ppm and availible to whole squads.

 Frozocrone wrote:
It's nice to see Wyches are performing well, considering they lost their haywire Grenades (should never had have it imo, they are Cc fighters fluff wise)

I think Wyches are fine and that most of the complaining about them is based on the Haywire thing. Also combat drugs and the new PfP are major factors in their performance and folks haven't done a good job considering them when they complain about Wyches.

Also consider that without haywire costing 2 ppm, you basically now get an extra Wych.

I presume that Wyches really want to start in Reserve and Deep Strike so they (a) enter CC with at least FNP and (b) have less time to get shot up?

I'm impressed that five-Wych units were so effective. On the other end of the spectrum, anyone tried a maximum size blob of 15 (using WWP since they wouldn't fit in a transport)? I'm curious what the best employment is for Wych units of various sizes: 5 in Venom, 8-10 in Raider, 11-15 with WWP.

 Exergy wrote:

So assault marines shouldnt have Krak Grenades?


I think the issue is that haywire grenades are too good. They should have been made 4+ to glance, no chance to pen and then still 1-2ppm and availible to whole squads.

Krak Grenades are not Haywire grenades, and should not be compared to them. True to SM credo, kraks are "ok" against a lot of things. Haywire is phenomenal against one thing. No reason for an infantry-killing CC squad to also delete vehicles on contact (regardless of AV). Leave that to Scarabs.

Cambonimachine wrote:
Once i get the Covens 'dex next payday I'll look again, but im theoryhammering the idea of x10grots with a haemy w/ wwp for shenanigans.

Still not sure why everyone is all about the liquifiers though? I'm personally not a fan of the variable ap and s3 just seems a bit weak to me?

I don't own any Grots either, but this is an idea I was thinking of as well. I also wasn't going to put Liquifiers on them, they don't seem at all worth the points. These guys naked with a Haemy seem like they'll be nasty, particularly if you can get a Cronos in range to boost their FNP.

I plan to take 4 Kabalite squads in upgraded Raiders to kill infantry with mass TL Poison, 2x5 Scourges with Heat Lances as TAC AT units, 2 Razorwing Jetfighters and 1 Voidraven Bomber for a mixture of flying AI/AT that can help with enemy FMCs/Flyers and two DL Ravagers for even more AT. Now add an Archon with Blaster and the Helm of Spite in a dedicated Venom to gain some more of AT/AI and the anti-Psyker bonus. Not a tournament winning list, but seems like a comprehensive TAC army to me.

Hey Sydney, I tried 15 Wyches with a Haemi w/ WWP last weekend against IG. It worked well. I think I lost about 4-5 in the enemy shooting phase, but after that they were able to kill an Infantry Squad and a Scions Command Squad. The thing that seemed to help them is this new codex gives us a lot of target saturation, and our Beta Strike is amazing now.

Drake118 wrote:
Hey Sydney, I tried 15 Wyches with a Haemi w/ WWP last weekend against IG. It worked well. I think I lost about 4-5 in the enemy shooting phase, but after that they were able to kill an Infantry Squad and a Scions Command Squad. The thing that seemed to help them is this new codex gives us a lot of target saturation, and our Beta Strike is amazing now.

How did you only lose 4-5? I suppose you DSed in and then ran to avoid getting a pie plate in the face, but what if your run move fails? Then even if you get a good run, you are still bunched up for flamers+pie or they can rapid fire you with lasguns. IG are the last army I would want to DS wyches against.

SisterSydney wrote:I presume that Wyches really want to start in Reserve and Deep Strike so they (a) enter CC with at least FNP and (b) have less time to get shot up?

I'm impressed that five-Wych units were so effective. On the other end of the spectrum, anyone tried a maximum size blob of 15 (using WWP since they wouldn't fit in a transport)? I'm curious what the best employment is for Wych units of various sizes: 5 in Venom, 8-10 in Raider, 11-15 with WWP.

mercury14 wrote:I ran two 5x Wyches (naked) w/Venom, and a 8x Wych, Hekatrix, haywire, Hydra w/Raider unit. All three of the units made it into CC, although the large unit got pinned in a vehicle wreck turn two and didn't make it into CC until turn four, however it still had 7 models in it. The combat drug was +1 attack so they were killing 'Crons.
It was cool seeing Wyches get shot by AP5 guns and then survive with FNP though. When they get a 5+ cover and 5+ FNP they're actually somewhat durable against small arms fire.

I'm assuming mercury ran his wyches starting on the board based upon him saying about how quickly he failed his jink saves. But i think different uses will see different deployments.

5 man wych units in venoms starting on the board could be good for applying initial pressure through boosting up the board, or flanking.
they could also be useful DSing in turn 2-3 to act as a back-up unit, like how mercury used them to wipe those wraiths. a sorta DSing counter charge unit, as FNP and FC will make them rather nasty. You could potentially DS them next to a unit that you know is going to get charged next turn, acting as both a dissuader and clean-up unit.

I think the larger blob is better for a later turn WWP, turn 3+ would see them with considerable survivability and could be used to tie up a powerful unit while you spend the last couple turns taking objectives and clearing up elsewhere.

i'd also be interested in whether anyone has DS'ed or WWP'd in wyches.

Hollismason wrote:


1 - urien or haemy plus 2 units of grots - d6 roll at start of game for grots - +1S, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, 4+ FNP

Grots are good in a coven list as they get fearless on turn 2(1 with a haemi) +1T, 4+FNP, or fleet grots sound even sicker.

Hollismason wrote:

3 - 2 units of wracks in 2 venoms - if a unit in this formation scores first blood, gain D3 vp rather than 1. Wracks must start embarked an in reserve. Deployed turn 1 via deep strike

Might be a good way to get an extra VP. Imagine, 24 Posion shots + 2 Obesfactors on turn 1 to finish something off(you can use other units to soften up a unit first). Of course if you go second, you might already give up first blood being DE.

Hollismason wrote:

4 - unit of 5 Talos - gain scout. Score an extra vp for any non vehicle unit killed in combat

5 Talos is 600 points. If you could include 1 cronos and 4 talos would be better for the 4+ FNP. Still this thing is going to be a lot of fun. Perhaps not competetive, but fun.

Yeah I started two Wych squads in Venoms and the 8x Wych squad in a Raider (obviously), and on the map.

Dark Eldar are not a reserve army and PfP doesn't change that IMO. Yes a single unit in a WWP can erase a high-value enemy unit so there's utility there, however in general we want all hands on deck, attacking right from turn one. Being in reserve doesn't keep us safe, it just gives our opponents a simpler choice of who to shoot at on the board.

Hollismason wrote:
Has the coven thing come out already?

I know they're were some nasty formations in that, that can be turned into Deathstars.
Specifically that unit of Haemy and Talos or something like that.


I think these are the rumoured formations

1 - urien or haemy plus 2 units of grots - d6 roll at start of game for grots - +1S, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, 4+ FNP
2 - 1 haemy, 1 chronos, 2 units of wracks - all wracks gain precision strike, wracks treat turn 1 higher for pfp. if haemy is the warlord he gets trait 4 automatically
3 - 2 units of wracks in 2 venoms - if a unit in this formation scores first blood, gain D3 vp rather than 1. Wracks must start embarked an in reserve. Deployed turn 1 via deep strike
4 - unit of 5 Talos - gain scout. Score an extra vp for any non vehicle unit killed in combat
5 - 1 haemy, 1 Chronos, 1 Talos - form a single unit. Characters may not join it outside of this formation. Talos and chronos gain +1ws and init. If haemy is warlord, gain trait 1 automatically
6 - 1 haemy, 3 units of wracks with raiders. Master of pain from haemy confers to all units in this formation within 12". Warlord trait 5 if haemy is warlord

7 - all 6 formations as above in 1 formation - called the carnival of pain. Urien form formation 1 has his master of pain rule confer to whole formation. All non vehicles reroll 1's to wound in combat

That's the part that stands out to me for some abuse issues. Also that's like a ridiculous amount of points I bet anything that the all 6 formations is a bit different and meets the requirements of all so like if you have 3 Wrack units then you've met the 2 Wrack requirement of the other formation or something.

Otherwise that's a 2k formation.

Number 3 though let's you set nothing on the board so you can basically have an alpha strike on turn two, dunno if people noticed that. So play with that formation and the Real Space Raiders and drop in on everyone. You could even just set a Comm Relay nearby let them drop in and run over to it so you can reroll reserves.

its a formation for large point games, you cant have units count as from more than one detachment so it is indeed all the units from each detachment in total.

there is a similar thing for tyranids, with the squads all at min sized and no upgrades on anything it comes to ~2500pts

the option 3 thing is very good, but if you plan to alpha strike turn 2 you could end up losing if you go first, you drop your wrack venoms, if opponent kills them at end of game turn 1 (both player turns 1) you lose.

Does the Coven supplement have any new units or wargear? Or just formations (meh) and missions (bleh)?

blaktoof wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Has the coven thing come out already?

I know they're were some nasty formations in that, that can be turned into Deathstars.
Specifically that unit of Haemy and Talos or something like that.


I think these are the rumoured formations

1 - urien or haemy plus 2 units of grots - d6 roll at start of game for grots - +1S, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, 4+ FNP
2 - 1 haemy, 1 chronos, 2 units of wracks - all wracks gain precision strike, wracks treat turn 1 higher for pfp. if haemy is the warlord he gets trait 4 automatically
3 - 2 units of wracks in 2 venoms - if a unit in this formation scores first blood, gain D3 vp rather than 1. Wracks must start embarked an in reserve. Deployed turn 1 via deep strike
4 - unit of 5 Talos - gain scout. Score an extra vp for any non vehicle unit killed in combat
5 - 1 haemy, 1 Chronos, 1 Talos - form a single unit. Characters may not join it outside of this formation. Talos and chronos gain +1ws and init. If haemy is warlord, gain trait 1 automatically
6 - 1 haemy, 3 units of wracks with raiders. Master of pain from haemy confers to all units in this formation within 12". Warlord trait 5 if haemy is warlord

7 - all 6 formations as above in 1 formation - called the carnival of pain. Urien form formation 1 has his master of pain rule confer to whole formation. All non vehicles reroll 1's to wound in combat

That's the part that stands out to me for some abuse issues. Also that's like a ridiculous amount of points I bet anything that the all 6 formations is a bit different and meets the requirements of all so like if you have 3 Wrack units then you've met the 2 Wrack requirement of the other formation or something.

Otherwise that's a 2k formation.

Number 3 though let's you set nothing on the board so you can basically have an alpha strike on turn two, dunno if people noticed that. So play with that formation and the Real Space Raiders and drop in on everyone. You could even just set a Comm Relay nearby let them drop in and run over to it so you can reroll reserves.

its a formation for large point games, you cant have units count as from more than one detachment so it is indeed all the units from each detachment in total.

there is a similar thing for tyranids, with the squads all at min sized and no upgrades on anything it comes to ~2500pts

the option 3 thing is very good, but if you plan to alpha strike turn 2 you could end up losing if you go first, you drop your wrack venoms, if opponent kills them at end of game turn 1 (both player turns 1) you lose.

2120 pts, with no upgrades, and as small as you can get on every squad.

That's a bit disappointing. As it's a very very good formation.That's #3 w/ the 2 Wracks in Venoms that deep strike on turn 1 really get's me as probably the most strikingly good.Especially considering the Beta Strike ability of the army but also because of the First Blood, getting D3 victory points on Turn 1 , plus being able to fufill an Objective is pretty great. The Haemy plus Talos and Chronos is interesting because it can deep strike ( Pretty sure Haemy can get a WWP). I think that may have been missed.

Also that Detachment is amazing, it's all Elites which is really interesting as it changes some huge things for the army.

It's a 1 HQ , 2 ELites, and then I think 3 more elites.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Does the Coven supplement have any new units or wargear? Or just formations (meh) and missions (bleh)?

It has it's own artifact table, own Warlord table, own PfP table, own CAD, and, yes, a bunch of formations. The CAD itself is a pretty big difference though...

It's a 1 HQ , 2 ELites, and then I think 3 more elites.

You talking about the Covenite Coterie?

It's actually more dramatic then that. 2 HQ 2 Elite are compulsory, and 4 more HQ, 6 more elite, and 4 HS are optional. So you can run as many as 6 HQs, 8 Elites, and 4 HS. Pretty interesting options, there.

Also, all CADs/Formations get the -1 Leadership to all units within 12" rule. I could see some interesting combos with that and the core DE book.

After reading everyones ideas especially hollismason, who pointed out some powerful unique traits that only Dark Eldar have. I am going to start a new Dark Eldar army for sure, this codex gets two thumbs up from me! At the moment I am thinking about making a durable Dark Eldar list! Durable and Dark Eldar normally are not in the same sentence but I really think it is possible with this new codex, and with Power of Pain you benefit for making a durable list.

The list I am thinking about using will have Cronos with Spirit Probes and Urien Rakarth to give units a 5+ feel no pain save on the first turn and a 4+ save after that. The Cronos unit and beastmasters units with Urien Rakarth will start on the field, the monstrous creature unit has 9 toughness 7 wounds, all with a 3+ armor save, and a 4+ feel no pain save that is extremely durable even wave serpent spam will cry out loud facing that. To protect the weak vehicles I will keep them in reserve, I will use an Autarch's path of strategy to bring in units on a 2+. The important vehicles will have nightshields to give them a 3+ cover save. Turn 2 is when all the units will have a feel no pain save that can be a 4+ depending on the positioning, and if one of those wave serpents used their shields a portal with fire dragons will hopefully destroy it. Have your vehicles open fire and hopefully your beastmasters units are in charge range if not it is ok, because turn 3 you get to take advantage of furious charge.If done correctly you can have furious charge wyches, not alot of damage but I am looking at the durability of 4+ invulnerable followed by a 4+ feel no pain save.

I am focusing on thinking of ways to make Dark Eldar list more durable so we can take advantage of our late game buffs.

Regarding the formation where you put a Haemi, Talos, and Cronos in one unit, is there any reason the Haemi can't leave it? Or another IC can't join?

 CKO wrote:
After reading everyones ideas especially hollismason, who pointed out some powerful unique traits that only Dark Eldar have. I am going to start a new Dark Eldar army for sure, this codex gets two thumbs up from me! At the moment I am thinking about making a durable Dark Eldar list! Durable and Dark Eldar normally are not in the same sentence but I really think it is possible with this new codex, and with Power of Pain you benefit for making a durable list.

I'm not building a durable DE list, but I do want some durability. DE units are much more specialized than any other army (they are what eldar should have been), it's nice to have something to force your opponents decisions.
I'll be running 3 beast packs, each with 10 khymera and 2 beast masters. It's only 120 points each, and shows up with T4 5+ invul and 40 S4 attacks on the charge.
It brings the body count up, and pushes forward very fast very early.

mercury14 wrote:
Regarding the formation where you put a Haemi, Talos, and Cronos in one unit, is there any reason the Haemi can't leave it? Or another IC can't join?

It specifically states that that cannot in fact happen on both points.


Also 5 Talos in one unit even if it is a expensive is pretty amazing because they get scout which of course is amazing but it's exactly like the Chaos Murderpack where 1 Invisibility spell affects the whole unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Does the Coven supplement have any new units or wargear? Or just formations (meh) and missions (bleh)?

It has it's own artifact table, own Warlord table, own PfP table, own CAD, and, yes, a bunch of formations. The CAD itself is a pretty big difference though...

It's a 1 HQ , 2 ELites, and then I think 3 more elites.

You talking about the Covenite Coterie?

It's actually more dramatic then that. 2 HQ 2 Elite are compulsory, and 4 more HQ, 6 more elite, and 4 HS are optional. So you can run as many as 6 HQs, 8 Elites, and 4 HS. Pretty interesting options, there.

Also, all CADs/Formations get the -1 Leadership to all units within 12" rule. I could see some interesting combos with that and the core DE book.

Woah, wait you mean you can take 6 HQs? I'll have to look over that , cause that's hilarious if you can take 6 Courts of the Archon, unfortunately you won't get the later turn bonuses though as you'll have fearless I believe.