Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Trueborn would make sense, or they could have added a 5th model type to the court.

-Matt

Solar Shock wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Oh yeah I keep forgetting those are scourges only which makes no sense.

trueborn with haywire blasters would be like wyches with haywire
you'd just put em in a venom, but this time you'd only need to be within 24". Obviously the cost of the blaster would be limiting, but the need to not be in assault range is the balance to that imo.

I would say I think they have tried to limit the amount of haywire DE could spam.... but then I remembered the 6 FA slots in that detatchment I think its probably good they kept them off trueborn, but scourge only? but then who else would you give em to? Considering it seems more a kabal weapon than a coven and there arent really any other kabal units it would work in.

how would 4 trueborn with haywire in a venom be any better than 4 scourges with haywire. The Scourges cost less!

Because they get a Venom, duh.

Venoms make everything better.

 Extreaminatus wrote:
Because they get a Venom, duh.

Venoms make everything better.

yes, but 5 scourges with 4 haywire blasters is 120. 5 trueborn with haywire balsters is 100, and the venom adds another 65.

I think both would be decent options, but I dont think trueborn would nessisarily be completely better or OP. They could have given trueborn haywireblasters and heatlances.
If it was going to be too much, they could have let them take haywire or heatlances as heavy weapons rather than special weapons

 Exergy wrote:

 Extreaminatus wrote:
Because they get a Venom, duh.

Venoms make everything better.

yes, but 5 scourges with 4 haywire blasters is 120. 5 trueborn with haywire balsters is 100, and the venom adds another 65.

I think both would be decent options, but I dont think trueborn would nessisarily be completely better or OP. They could have given trueborn haywireblasters and heatlances.
If it was going to be too much, they could have let them take haywire or heatlances as heavy weapons rather than special weapons

Moving the haywire blaster to heavy would work. Trueborn get 2, Warriors get 1 per full 10. Scourge are unchanged.
Of course, if you could go haywire and blaster for warriors, that's making warriors actually useful, and we can't have that.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Moving the haywire blaster to heavy would work. Trueborn get 2, Warriors get 1 per full 10. Scourge are unchanged.
Of course, if you could go haywire and blaster for warriors, that's making warriors actually useful, and we can't have that.

-Matt

Whats worse it would give troops choices variety. Doubly bad

Wracks would all be so much better if they could purchase Hexrifles, but no you can just have 1 Hexrifle which sucks.

Am I right in understanding that the Talos can only change one of the CCWs into the weapon upgrade options? It certainly seems to read that way

The only reason I ask is that the picture in the book shows one with two of the upgrades...

What are people's thoughts on the best loadout for one?

 scottmmmm wrote:
Am I right in understanding that the Talos can only change one of the CCWs into the weapon upgrade options? It certainly seems to read that way

The only reason I ask is that the picture in the book shows one with two of the upgrades...

What are people's thoughts on the best loadout for one?

No you can replace both - wouldn't recommend it though.

It depends on what you want to do, the Scouting Formation one could use five TL Haywire Blasters effectively, but for units of three or less, probably keep them bare minimum

 Frozocrone wrote:

 scottmmmm wrote:
Am I right in understanding that the Talos can only change one of the CCWs into the weapon upgrade options? It certainly seems to read that way

The only reason I ask is that the picture in the book shows one with two of the upgrades...

What are people's thoughts on the best loadout for one?

No you can replace both - wouldn't recommend it though.

It depends on what you want to do, the Scouting Formation one could use five TL Haywire Blasters effectively, but for units of three or less, probably keep them bare minimum

Are you sure? It reads "the talos can replace one of its close combat weapons with one of the following"

The stinger pod looks quite good vs horde armies such as Orks or Nids

Pretty sure - I think there is something similar in the Tyranid Codex in regards to changing Scything Talons to TL Devourers, but I can't confirm that.

Not sure how I feel about Stinger Pods, Assault 2 is great, but it's a small blast so you won't get a lot of models - and you give up 12 TL Poison shots, at a further range so can do more damage on the first turn.

Do not worry about Tyranids hordes, unless they go FMC heavy, I've played my Nids against DE enough to know Nids have a incredibly tough match-up and the only way they really have a chance against DE is to exploit the lack of good AA that DE have access to

I kind of wonder how a Razorwing spam would work if you allied in Eldar for Wave Serpents.

Like

1 Archon w/ WWP
2 Kabalite Warriors w/ Venoms or whatever.
5 Razorwings

Eldar
Autarch
Maybe Wraithguard w/ D- Scythes
Dire Avengers w/ Wave Serpent
Dire Avengers w/ Wave Serpent
Crimson Hunter

5 Razor Wings kitted at 150 , is 750, Archon's another 95, + 110 for each of the Warrior Squads. It'd definitely be less than 1850 or at least you could easily do 1850 with that army.

That would be interesting, seems to make sense too, as trueborn, is an upgrade available to warriors.

Would be, but

May upgrade all Kabalite Warriors to Kabalite Trueborn, changing the unit’s Battlefield Role to Elites…3 pts/model

Also, haywire blasters are "Scourges only. " weapons, pr am I missing some point in the discussion?

We're just talking hypothetical.

I kind of wonder how a mass terrify army would work.

Specifically with the Hemlock Fighter because it automatically gets Terrify, not sure if it get's Psychic Shriek.

Anyway with Armour of Misery you could deep strike then bring on a Hemlock Fighter and Terrify something at -3 LD or use it with Coven Formation and -2 LD.

Coven and a mass Psychic Shriek / Terrify Army seems interesting.

Hollismason wrote:
We're just talking hypothetical.

I kind of wonder how a mass terrify army would work.

Specifically with the Hemlock Fighter because it automatically gets Terrify, not sure if it get's Psychic Shriek.

Anyway with Armour of Misery you could deep strike then bring on a Hemlock Fighter and Terrify something at -3 LD or use it with Coven Formation and -2 LD.

Coven and a mass Psychic Shriek / Terrify Army seems interesting.

Or all 3. Coven Formation with Hemlock and Terrify for Ld-4.
Really though, I think it's sub-par. A cheap coven formation is around 300 points, another 115 or so for the archon with armor of misery, and then the hemlock for 185. 500 points in LD shenanigans, is great and all until you run into a mech'ed up or fearless army. Or you could just take 7 venoms for about the same cost, and just dump 84 poison shots into the target instead of hoping on the failed Ld test.

I could see a mixed Coven and Iyanden army with Spirit Seer's being effective. You've got Psychic Shriek plus Terrify. That'd be interesting.

Does the Hemlock get Psychic Shriek? I never can keep that straight.

Hollismason wrote:
I could see a mixed Coven and Iyanden army with Spirit Seer's being effective. You've got Psychic Shriek plus Terrify. That'd be interesting.
Does the Hemlock get Psychic Shriek? I never can keep that straight.

You want to spend 185 points for a level 1, when you could spend 70 points on a level 2? Or 100 points on a level 3?
I'll stick with the spirit seer if I want Shriek, and hope for terrify (or invisibility).

Yeah your right.

I'm unsure of something with coven though can it be taken as just an ally? Like would it use the ally detachment rules?

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah your right.

I'm unsure of something with coven though can it be taken as just an ally? Like would it use the ally detachment rules?

Page 48 of the Haemonculi Coven
If you use one of these formations or the Covenite Coterie Detachment, then the following special rules apply.

Covenite Coterie Detachment
2 HQ + 6 optional HQ, 2 elites +6 optional elites and 4 optional heavy support.

Or Take one of 7 Formations

Haemonculus + 2 Grotesques
OR
Haemonculus + Cronos + 2x Wracks
OR
2x Wracks in 2 venoms
OR
5 Talos
OR
Talos + Cronos + Haemonculus
OR
Haemonculus + 3 Wracks + 3 Raiders
OR
Take All 6 of the formations and get some more special rules.

If you aren't using these above, then you don't get the Covens power from pain special table, the warlord traits, or the Diabolical Playthings. In short, you're back to the basic DE codex.

Is anyone else having a lot of success with the new codex? I just took home first place playing mono-DE in a 14 FLGS tournament yesterday, tabling Blood Angels, Astram, and in the championship match against Imperial Fists w/Knight I had the game in the bag in turn one. I'm now 6W, 0L, 1D with the new codex and in four of those wins I tabled my opponent.

mercury14 wrote:
Is anyone else having a lot of success with the new codex? I just took home first place playing mono-DE in a 14 FLGS tournament yesterday, tabling Blood Angels, Astram, and in the championship match against Imperial Fists w/Knight I had the game in the bag in turn one. I'm now 6W, 0L, 1D with the new codex and in four of those wins I tabled my opponent.

What is your list looking like? What units are doing good and what would you change?

Not tried the DE codex yet.

Got my hands on the covens supplement though, and i can see some really nice themic possibilites....

mercury14 wrote:
Is anyone else having a lot of success with the new codex? I just took home first place playing mono-DE in a 14 FLGS tournament yesterday, tabling Blood Angels, Astram, and in the championship match against Imperial Fists w/Knight I had the game in the bag in turn one. I'm now 6W, 0L, 1D with the new codex and in four of those wins I tabled my opponent.

I have not taken it to a tournament yet nor seen statistics from a major tournament since the release, but my Dark Eldar seem to be far more potent than they were with the old codex. This is in large part due to night-shields increasing raider and ravager durability drastically. New power from pain is also fairly nifty. It starts to kick in right around the same time that I am launching assaults and general mop-up operations.

Whats better wracks or wyches? I know that wyches tie up things better because of dodge but if the wrack unit is fearless because of coven rules and actually doing damage with 4+ posion attacks I am not sure, what do you guys think?

 lambsandlions wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Is anyone else having a lot of success with the new codex? I just took home first place playing mono-DE in a 14 FLGS tournament yesterday, tabling Blood Angels, Astram, and in the championship match against Imperial Fists w/Knight I had the game in the bag in turn one. I'm now 6W, 0L, 1D with the new codex and in four of those wins I tabled my opponent.

What is your list looking like? What units are doing good and what would you change?

I've been running different lists as I'll be experimenting for quite a while I think. Here's my list I won the tournament with. I don't have my list on me so this is a rehash from memory and not 100% accurate and I think some of the math is off, but you get the gist.

Combined Arms Detachment

(HQ ) Archon
- Blaster –
- WWP –
- Shadowfield -

(T ) 7x Wyches –
- Hekatrix –
- Hydras –
- Raider w/nightshield, SP -

(T ) 7x Wyches -
- Hekatrix –
- Hydras –
- Raider w/nightshield, SP –

(T ) 5x Wyches –
- Hydras -
- Venom w/cannons -

(FA ) 9x Reavers –
- Arena Champion -
- Cluster-freaking caltrops of sweetness x 3 –

(FA ) 3x Reavers –
- Heat lance

(FA 110) Scourges x5
- 4x Hayblaster -

(E ) Trueborn x5 –
- Dracon w/haywire -
- 4x blasters –
- Raider w/nightshield
ARCHON Goes here

(E ) Trueborn x5
- 3x blasters
- Venom w/cannons -

(E ) Trueborn x5
- 3x blasters
- Venom w/cannons -

(HV ) Ravager
- DLs

(HV ) Ravager
- DLs

(FA ) Razorwing Jetfighter -
- TL Splinter Cannon


Scalpel Squadron Detachment :

(E) 5x Wracks -
- Ossefactor –
- Venom w/cannons -

(E) 5x Wracks –
- Ossefactor –
- Venom w/cannons –

Wyches getting some love eh? That's awesome to see wyches used in a successful army. After getting so much flak and pretty much being panned by 90% of the interwebz I'm happy to see them. I bought everything I'd need to start a wych army for this new codex release cause I wanna try DE, how are you running your wyches, what are your tactics with them?

Seriously, Let us know how to make wyches work.

I've got 20 of them lined up to be converted to storm guardians and warriors.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Wyches getting some love eh? That's awesome to see wyches used in a successful army. After getting so much flak and pretty much being panned by 90% of the interwebz I'm happy to see them. I bought everything I'd need to start a wych army for this new codex release cause I wanna try DE, how are you running your wyches, what are your tactics with them?

Not sure you can really run a Wych army. It's best to think of it sort of like a Wych detachment. Let me summarize why I think Wyches are substantially buffed. Here's a post I made recently on another corner of the interweb:

1) They get a Raider that jinks on a 3+, meaning they're more likely than ever to reach their destination effectively. And when they get into CC it increases their survivability.

2) They're less likely to have their transport explode, increasing their survivability

3) Power from Pain is much better and gives them FnP, increasing their survivability.

4) Since they're not each buying haywire their cost has been effectively dropped two points. That's a free Wych or Hekatrix upgrade.

5) Turn four they all get furious charge. You may say "Ha! Wyches living till turn four?" But with #1, #2, #3, and #4 increasing their survivability they stay around longer than ever.

I've been running Wyches lately and winning a lot. I run seven or eight in a Raider w/NS, Hydra Gauntlets, and a Hekatrix for the morale point and extra attack. I'll run three units together like this (or maybe two plus a smaller Wych unit w/Hydra in a Venom, and I've not just tarpitted, I've killed some stuff with them. And their range of assaultable targets is fairly large, as they can go after MCs that don't have too many attacks, power armor, termis, etc. And while they can't hurt things like Dreadnoughts, I'm finding that Dreads will not assault them because they know they'll get tied up.

Wyches are vulnerable when they come out of CC of course, and that's why you want to consolidate them into cover. But still, a 5+ cover save plus FnP against small arms really isn't terrible durability, certainly more durability than ever before. Just watch out for flamers but at least you get FnP now against most flamers.

Lastly I'll say that internet people are very poor at calculating wyches' value with combat drugs. 2/3 of the drugs are very good, the Ld one is okay, and the initiative one is bad. So only one bad one. But I guarantee you that when your wyches all get Bloodbride numbers of attacks, hit with the strength of assault marines, or rock a T4 FnP with 4++, you're going to feel real good.

Been running Eldar/DE for a long time, and with the new codex I've noticed it really become a split between the two dexes. Before, depending on the list, I was allying in all DE contributed was baron/Vect, warriors in a venom, and maybe trueborn in a venom. In other words: I allied in a utility/beatstick HQ, the troop tax, and maybe one other good unit in the codex (blasterborn).

Now, the lists I'm building could very easily be E/DE or DE/E. Only reason I run CWE main is for to have two farseers, othrwise both lists could easily be an ally detachment of the other. I find myself agonizing over whether to cut one unit from one codex to grab a unit from the other. When a codex is good enough to give the bulk of the Eldar codex a run for its money, it's a good codex.

There are a few things in the new codex that are just perplexing (are grenades banned in the Dark City?) and worth griping about, but by and large most units in the codex can work pretty well. The list I'm using isn't exactly rocket surgery strategy wise, but it fits my play style well and has been incredibly powerful:

Eldar: 2 x Jetseers- Shard/Stone Anath

2 x DA squads in WS's- SL, holofield

Fire dragons (maybe WS, maybe not)

Warp Spiders

Wraith Knight

DE Allies: Archon/Succubus- Armor of misery, WWP, other (haven't decided who I like better here)

1-2 5 man warrior squads -Venoms x 2 cannons

5 Blasterborn- Venom x 2 cannons

12 Reavers- 4 caltrops

Don't have any DE heavy support, which is the only reason that slot is empty. Since GW apparently learned their lesson from Wraith Lords and let Talos/Chronos squad up I'd very strongly consider a squad of Talos w/Blasters to escort the WK. Either way this template has proven to be pretty strong so far, and more importantly is a blast to play.

Question to Mercury in particular about making Wyches work: I take it they really need a Raider? A Venom squad seems dangerously small, while a maxed-out 15-Wych squad on foot relying on WWP alone is too vulnerable to being shot up before they get stuck in?