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 HawaiiMatt wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
If wyches are overcosted it's by maybe 1 ppm. I think they're fine though. 4++ in CC, FnP, objective secured, combat drugs for 10 points? Sounds good to me!

If you want to talk about head-scratching crappy overcosted units, Hellions are right this way. -3 points each but they lost one CC attack because hellglaives no longer count as 2 weapons. They die as easily as kabalites but struggle in cover since it's dangerous to them. Worse still, they share a slot with our wonderful Reavers which pack soooo much more value per point at just a tiny bit more cost.

You must be confusing hellions with packs of beastmasters . 10 points for 2 poison shots, you move fast, and ignore terrain.

Combo of Beastmasters being exactly the same but cheaper, no grenades (freaking phantasom), and being in fast attack meant Hellions were DOA. Even if hellglaives had been left alone, there's nothing they do I wouldn't just take a reaver to do and have them do better.

I say wyches are overcosted because you need volume to make them work. 2 points lets you grab mandatory upgrades for the vehicles that are vital to making the wyches a threat. It wouldn't be an issue if they weren't troops, but being as they are (and meant to be spammed) I think the price is a tad high. But if they're working for you, great.

@ lambsandlions
I believea medusa can shoot if the transport that is carrying them jinked since the are considered a different unit within the transport (not 100% sure on that but I tried to find flaws in this in the rulebook and it seems to work). What is noteworthy is that if you moved more than 6" then people in the transport can only fire snapshots thus no template weapons.

Hellions can shoot a bit better stock than Reavers. The one annoying thing about Reavers is that their guns are rapid-fire so if they shoot they can't assault. Hellions have assault 2 guns.

Also Hellions can deep strike FWIW.

I think Hellions should be considered more like fast Kabalites (I guess...).

mercury14 wrote:
Hellions can shoot a bit better stock than Reavers. The one annoying thing about Reavers is that their guns are rapid-fire so if they shoot they can't assault. Hellions have assault 2 guns.

bikes are relentless thus reavers can assault even when firing salvo, heavy, and rapid fire.

 ansacs wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Hellions can shoot a bit better stock than Reavers. The one annoying thing about Reavers is that their guns are rapid-fire so if they shoot they can't assault. Hellions have assault 2 guns.

bikes are relentless thus reavers can assault even when firing salvo, heavy, and rapid fire.

Dude. I've been playing Reavers wrong for years.

Hellions are just like every other jump infantry now; massively outclassed by the bikes in the same slot that only cost 3 points more.
The problem isn't with hellions, it's with ALL jump infantry.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, Hellion arms on eldar bodies make pretty decent Incubi, especially with fantasy black guard heads.
Then put spare wych arms on to the hellions to make beastmasters.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, Hellion arms on eldar bodies make pretty decent Incubi, especially with fantasy black guard heads.
Then put spare wych arms on to the hellions to make beastmasters.

Winner here ^^

il be using that tip for sure as I want to convert some incubi as it is and i've been toying with the idea of a beast pack.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Hellions are just like every other jump infantry now; massively outclassed by the bikes in the same slot that only cost 3 points more.
The problem isn't with hellions, it's with ALL jump infantry.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, Hellion arms on eldar bodies make pretty decent Incubi, especially with fantasy black guard heads.
Then put spare wych arms on to the hellions to make beastmasters.

exalted.

So I am building a army list and I can not decide on the configuration of my fast attack. I know I want to fill up all 6 slots and my options are:

120 pts for 10 khymera 2 beastmaster
126 pts for 6 reavers 2 clustercaltrops
120 pts for 5 scourges 4 haywire

Basically each unit cost almost the same points so I can combine them in any way I want. Scourges are important as they are the best way to deal with high AV vehicles, but they die easy so are usually just a one shot deal. Reavers are a fast multi purpose tools who are only good on the charge. Beasts are reliable but only have basic attacks.

What would be the best combination?

 lambsandlions wrote:
So I am building a army list and I can not decide on the configuration of my fast attack. I know I want to fill up all 6 slots and my options are:

120 pts for 10 khymera 2 beastmaster
126 pts for 6 reavers 2 clustercaltrops
120 pts for 5 scourges 4 haywire

Basically each unit cost almost the same points so I can combine them in any way I want. Scourges are important as they are the best way to deal with high AV vehicles, but they die easy so are usually just a one shot deal. Reavers are a fast multi purpose tools who are only good on the charge. Beasts are reliable but only have basic attacks.

What would be the best combination?

Non, use hellions! j/k

All of them are good choices.

 lambsandlions wrote:
So I am building a army list and I can not decide on the configuration of my fast attack. I know I want to fill up all 6 slots and my options are:

120 pts for 10 khymera 2 beastmaster
126 pts for 6 reavers 2 clustercaltrops
120 pts for 5 scourges 4 haywire

Basically each unit cost almost the same points so I can combine them in any way I want. Scourges are important as they are the best way to deal with high AV vehicles, but they die easy so are usually just a one shot deal. Reavers are a fast multi purpose tools who are only good on the charge. Beasts are reliable but only have basic attacks.

What would be the best combination?

Do you want to include all three options? I would probably run 4x scourges, 2x Reavers if not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plenty of all kinds of antitank for pesky knights and meched up lists, plus the catchall Reavers.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
So I am building a army list and I can not decide on the configuration of my fast attack. I know I want to fill up all 6 slots and my options are:

120 pts for 10 khymera 2 beastmaster
126 pts for 6 reavers 2 clustercaltrops
120 pts for 5 scourges 4 haywire

Basically each unit cost almost the same points so I can combine them in any way I want. Scourges are important as they are the best way to deal with high AV vehicles, but they die easy so are usually just a one shot deal. Reavers are a fast multi purpose tools who are only good on the charge. Beasts are reliable but only have basic attacks.

What would be the best combination?

Do you want to include all three options? I would probably run 4x scourges, 2x Reavers if not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plenty of all kinds of antitank for pesky knights and meched up lists, plus the catchall Reavers.

I think when you get to having more than 2 units of scourges you should have 1 unit of heatlance buggers.

2 haywire and 1 heatlance pack. or 3 and 1.

Something that can go for the explode if you need it.

I'd go 4 reavers and 2 scourge.
I really want to like beast packs, but you really have to pick your fights.
I'd throw the heat lances on reavers with caltrops.
Or if you play with a stupid amount of LOS blocking terrain, blasters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found a use for hellions.
Attach character with web-way for a pin-point deep strike of 40 poison shots at 18".
Survivors then fire again and assault.
If you use a haemonculus for the portal, you're landing with 5+ FNP on top of your 5+ armor. Then, charging turn 3, you've already got furious charge.

They don't survive as good as bikes, but they shoot a hell of a lot better. And you're looking at a good number of S5 attacks on the charge, even better if you get decent drugs.

 Exergy wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
So I am building a army list and I can not decide on the configuration of my fast attack. I know I want to fill up all 6 slots and my options are:

120 pts for 10 khymera 2 beastmaster
126 pts for 6 reavers 2 clustercaltrops
120 pts for 5 scourges 4 haywire

Basically each unit cost almost the same points so I can combine them in any way I want. Scourges are important as they are the best way to deal with high AV vehicles, but they die easy so are usually just a one shot deal. Reavers are a fast multi purpose tools who are only good on the charge. Beasts are reliable but only have basic attacks.

What would be the best combination?

Do you want to include all three options? I would probably run 4x scourges, 2x Reavers if not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plenty of all kinds of antitank for pesky knights and meched up lists, plus the catchall Reavers.

I think when you get to having more than 2 units of scourges you should have 1 unit of heatlance buggers.

2 haywire and 1 heatlance pack. or 3 and 1.

Something that can go for the explode if you need it.

Seconded. Haywire's nice, but there are only so many vehicle targets to begin with. Mixing in a few heatlance units adds some flexibility and helps with +2 armor, which DE can struggle with.

Also keep in mind Caltrops can do work in a pinch as well. 2 hitting a AV 12 tank will average one pen. Not a huge advocate of heat lances on reavers though, as you'll be jinking most of the time anyway.

 Dash2021 wrote:


Seconded. Haywire's nice, but there are only so many vehicle targets to begin with. Mixing in a few heatlance units adds some flexibility and helps with +2 armor, which DE can struggle with.

Also keep in mind Caltrops can do work in a pinch as well. 2 hitting a AV 12 tank will average one pen. Not a huge advocate of heat lances on reavers though, as you'll be jinking most of the time anyway.

You also hit the rear armor, which is usually AV 10, meaning you are actually looking at averaging 2 pens and a glance, plus a possible extra pen from the 4 reavers.

120 pts is a lot to spend on a unit that will become completely useless once there are no vehicles, or if you go up against many tau lists, or nids, or bike heavy lists.

Hellions: I can't get over the skateboard thing. "Look at me! I am a marketing guy's idea of Xtreem Tranzgresshun.... from 1993."

 lambsandlions wrote:

 Dash2021 wrote:


Seconded. Haywire's nice, but there are only so many vehicle targets to begin with. Mixing in a few heatlance units adds some flexibility and helps with +2 armor, which DE can struggle with.

Also keep in mind Caltrops can do work in a pinch as well. 2 hitting a AV 12 tank will average one pen. Not a huge advocate of heat lances on reavers though, as you'll be jinking most of the time anyway.

You also hit the rear armor, which is usually AV 10, meaning you are actually looking at averaging 2 pens and a glance, plus a possible extra pen from the 4 reavers.

120 pts is a lot to spend on a unit that will become completely useless once there are no vehicles, or if you go up against many tau lists, or nids, or bike heavy lists.

Truth.com about the HoW. Was thinking of Knights specifically there, but I also forgot about them being walkers (so front armor for them). Still, mine have taken out IK's pretty well so far (2 farseers in tow actually make them really good at it). Either way, the points stands: Reavers w/caltrops aren't ideal AT, but they can get the job done in a pinch.

Reavers and scourges are #1/2 in the FA slot for me. Running 3 squads of each isn't a bad way to go at all. The difference between haywire and heat lance is probably going to be minimal, and come down to taste rather than there being a clear winner/loser.

It depends on your meta. I played this last weekend in a local RTT and my first game I paired with drop pod marines with marneus calgar and some assault termies in a crusader.

Game 2 I played minotaurs with Moloc in LR Spartan full of termies plus a LR Achilles both with immunity to lance and melta.

Game 3 I played against an unbound guard list that was 3 baneblade variants. Yup 27 av 14/13/12 hp's.

I was playing my own marines not my DE, last minute change, but it made me realize how boned I would have been even with 2 units of haywire scourge. Every game especially the second and third I would have struggled to open tanks up.

It was a great day btw. My imperial knight stomped marneus games one and my bike CM hammer of wrath gibbed Moloc game 2 a few turns after my thunderfire immobilized his spartan turn 1 after he failed a DT test

I would have been boned with heat lances on my scourge units had I taken my DE, heck even blasters would have sucked.

Personally I prefer Heat Lances on my Scourges. Haywire Blasters might be better at eliminating Vehicles under some circumstances, but I play against Tyranids, Chaos Daemons and barely-a-Vehicle-there SM armies that they would be nigh useless far too often. Heat Lances can threaten Bikers, Terminators and MCs as well as Vehicles, and I like TAC choices.

 SarisKhan wrote:
Personally I prefer Heat Lances on my Scourges. Haywire Blasters might be better at eliminating Vehicles under some circumstances, but I play against Tyranids, Chaos Daemons and barely-a-Vehicle-there SM armies that they would be nigh useless far too often. Heat Lances can threaten Bikers, Terminators and MCs as well as Vehicles, and I like TAC choices.

My concern exactly. As a Nid player, I'd love to go up against haywire spammer. They are great at AT, but useless against monsters. Doesn't seem like a good TAC option. That being said, HL may be the way to go. Honestly these days my lists are all reaver heavy with AT coming from drop dragons.

I wouldn't be afraid to run a bunch of haywire even if I was facing tyranids, or chaos daemons. I feel like we have such amazing options for dealing with them already.

With almost everything else in DE feeling like a hard counter to tyranid I feel like wasting points on haywire guns just makes it fair.

Why not break up the options such as 2x Haywire/2x Heatlance on Scourge units? They both have the same utility(antivehicle), but when you run out of vehicle targets the Lances and one Shardcarbine still give you utility against infantry/MCs.

 coblen wrote:
I wouldn't be afraid to run a bunch of haywire even if I was facing tyranids, or chaos daemons. I feel like we have such amazing options for dealing with them already.

With almost everything else in DE feeling like a hard counter to tyranid I feel like wasting points on haywire guns just makes it fair.

If this was 5th edition, I'd agree with you. 7th edition Nid meta has evolved quite a bit.

DE players tend to take less darklight on average now and with Nids running more FMCs than ever and with malanthropes spreading the love, I'd say that gap is not as wide as it once was.

With a 6 FA detachment and scourge being so inexpensive I don't see why taking a pair of haywire units is even a concern.

Seriously? What other armies do you play where every unit is useful against everything?

The biggest weakness in that book is AT. Vehicles and even super heavies are very popular in 7th. It just seems like a no brainer to me to toss in as much haywire as you need to start an alpha strike.

Tyranids are not a problem when your basic pistol can wound their toughest unit easily.

At their worst a haywire scourge unit is still a very mobile unit with a small footprint that can grab objectives where you need them to.

It's like reavers, people keep throwing up stats for how they can wreck a rhino, it's mind boggling to me that you would waste such potential and almost 4 times the points on a rhino. Heck even a chimera, razorB, or devilfish are not worth it IMO. Anything else and your odds go down an insane amount making the trade much riskier in your opponents favor.

I considered taloi with haywire B, trouble is you want them to run every turn, also the fact that each one is the cost of a full scourge haywire team.

I don't mind heat lance scourge but I would definitely run a 2 haywire units to 1 heatlance by default.

Of course your meta makes a difference here. In my meta I either see elite biker or deathstar armies or I see insane amounts of armor saturation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AesSedai wrote:

 coblen wrote:
I wouldn't be afraid to run a bunch of haywire even if I was facing tyranids, or chaos daemons. I feel like we have such amazing options for dealing with them already.

With almost everything else in DE feeling like a hard counter to tyranid I feel like wasting points on haywire guns just makes it fair.

If this was 5th edition, I'd agree with you. 7th edition Nid meta has evolved quite a bit.

DE players tend to take less darklight on average now and with Nids running more FMCs than ever and with malanthropes spreading the love, I'd say that gap is not as wide as it once was.

I play nids regularly and I can testify that they are now one of our worst match-ups. they can field several FMC that can start the game next to a malenthrope and jink if needed for a 2++ and any that haven't are equipped with heavy flamers basically making them all mini hell drakes of old. The ability to ignore our vehicles jink with a haywire HF all while toasting the passengers is very frustrating. Basically run your troop transports empty and walk your infantry on later and try to kill any malenthropes early.

 Red Corsair wrote:

I play nids regularly and I can testify that they are now one of our worst match-ups. they can field several FMC that can start the game next to a malenthrope and jink if needed for a 2++ and any that haven't are equipped with heavy flamers basically making them all mini hell drakes of old. The ability to ignore our vehicles jink with a haywire HF all while toasting the passengers is very frustrating. Basically run your troop transports empty and walk your infantry on later and try to kill any malenthropes early.

On the other hand, Talos and Cronos wreck nids. T7 with 3+ armor and 4+ feel no pain is a problem for nids. AP2 and lethal dose (ichor injectors) is big threat to the big bugs.
Tyranids aren't a bad match up, Tyranids are just a bad match up for the typically DE build.
If you know the bugs are coming, we have all the tools we need.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Found a use for hellions.
Attach character with web-way for a pin-point deep strike of 40 poison shots at 18".
Survivors then fire again and assault.
If you use a haemonculus for the portal, you're landing with 5+ FNP on top of your 5+ armor. Then, charging turn 3, you've already got furious charge.

They don't survive as good as bikes, but they shoot a hell of a lot better. And you're looking at a good number of S5 attacks on the charge, even better if you get decent drugs.

Reavers can rapid fire at 12" and get the same number of shots as hellions, with T4 and a far more formidable charge if they survive.

Also Reavers are eldar jetbikes, so they can move in the assault phase.

 Red Corsair wrote:
With a 6 FA detachment and scourge being so inexpensive I don't see why taking a pair of haywire units is even a concern.

Seriously? What other armies do you play where every unit is useful against everything?

The biggest weakness in that book is AT. Vehicles and even super heavies are very popular in 7th. It just seems like a no brainer to me to toss in as much haywire as you need to start an alpha strike.

Tyranids are not a problem when your basic pistol can wound their toughest unit easily.

At their worst a haywire scourge unit is still a very mobile unit with a small footprint that can grab objectives where you need them to.

It's like reavers, people keep throwing up stats for how they can wreck a rhino, it's mind boggling to me that you would waste such potential and almost 4 times the points on a rhino. Heck even a chimera, razorB, or devilfish are not worth it IMO. Anything else and your odds go down an insane amount making the trade much riskier in your opponents favor.

I considered taloi with haywire B, trouble is you want them to run every turn, also the fact that each one is the cost of a full scourge haywire team.

I don't mind heat lance scourge but I would definitely run a 2 haywire units to 1 heatlance by default.

Of course your meta makes a difference here. In my meta I either see elite biker or deathstar armies or I see insane amounts of armor saturation.

Lol, no one said anything about wanting a unit that is useful against everything. We're looking at heat lances being useful to some degree every game whereas HWB are great sometimes, useless other times. With reavers being as good as they are, don't you think it bears consideration?

My six slots may go 3x or 4x reavers...and could be razorwings and/or scourges.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AesSedai wrote:

 coblen wrote:
I wouldn't be afraid to run a bunch of haywire even if I was facing tyranids, or chaos daemons. I feel like we have such amazing options for dealing with them already.

With almost everything else in DE feeling like a hard counter to tyranid I feel like wasting points on haywire guns just makes it fair.

If this was 5th edition, I'd agree with you. 7th edition Nid meta has evolved quite a bit.

DE players tend to take less darklight on average now and with Nids running more FMCs than ever and with malanthropes spreading the love, I'd say that gap is not as wide as it once was.

I play nids regularly and I can testify that they are now one of our worst match-ups. they can field several FMC that can start the game next to a malenthrope and jink if needed for a 2++ and any that haven't are equipped with heavy flamers basically making them all mini hell drakes of old. The ability to ignore our vehicles jink with a haywire HF all while toasting the passengers is very frustrating. Basically run your troop transports empty and walk your infantry on later and try to kill any malenthropes early.

Pretty much...

So I am looking at the new Dark Artisan formation because it has been given a lot of really good reviews. The unit is pretty expensive and usually going to look something like:

Hemmy: agonizer, wwp, syndriq's stump140
Talos: chainflail 125
Cronos: Spirit probe 125
Total: 380pts

The benefits of the unit are +1 ws and I, -1 leadership with 12", fnp 4+ reroll 1, plus the ability to deep strike on your enemy. This is all good but I am not sure if the cronos can pull his weight and how does it compare to just taking 3 talos? The +1 ws is nice but talos are WS 5 so going to hit most things on a 3+ WS6 doesn't help much. I5 is a little better as most things are I4 so you hit first, but a t7 sv3+ fnp model doesn't really care about getting hit in close combat, you will be able to catch falling back units better. The 4+ reroll 1 FNP seems to be where the hotness is at, and it is good don't get me wrong, but it is not that good. 4+ reroll 1 FNP will save a wound about 58% of the time, compared to FNP 5+ which does it 33% of the time. But the talos are so defensive to begin with I am not sure you need the extra FNP. Lets say eldar is our worst match-up. Their wave serpents will do 4 scatter laser and 4 serpent shield shots, against a normal talos unit that will do an average of .65 wounds and against dark artisan that will do .42 wounds. Really not much of a difference. Whats more I want those wave serpents shooting at my talos so they are not shooting at my raiders or smaller units.

3 talos will also dish out a lot more wounds than the dark artisan formation. So is the WWP worth it? This is more up to debate. With the WWP the earliest the Formation will charge is turn 3 but 50% of the time it will be turn 4 or later. That is a long time to wait without 380pts worth of models. 3 talos starting on the board may not get to their first unit until turn 3 or 4 but they can soak up firepower, which is needed if other parts of your army is deep striking. Also 3 talos with haywire blasters is pretty good anti-tank, they will blow up most vehicles while they are moving forward and be able to assault the unit inside.

Maybe I am missing something but I think 3 talos might be better than the dark artisan formation.

 Exergy wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Found a use for hellions.
Attach character with web-way for a pin-point deep strike of 40 poison shots at 18".
Survivors then fire again and assault.
If you use a haemonculus for the portal, you're landing with 5+ FNP on top of your 5+ armor. Then, charging turn 3, you've already got furious charge.

They don't survive as good as bikes, but they shoot a hell of a lot better. And you're looking at a good number of S5 attacks on the charge, even better if you get decent drugs.

Reavers can rapid fire at 12" and get the same number of shots as hellions, with T4 and a far more formidable charge if they survive.

Also Reavers are eldar jetbikes, so they can move in the assault phase.

Reavers cap at 12 models, hellions at 20. The only use for hellions is taking advantage of that full sized unit. Web Way in 20 and they will maul a unit (at 18" range), with enough survivors left to fire again and assault.
Reavers are very good, but I can see a use for 3 units of scourge, 2 units of reavers, and a single hellion blob. If you use a coven haemonculus, they land with fearless. If you use a normal one, they gain fearless on turn 4. I'm not saying hellions are great, everyone take them. I'm saying this is the only way I can see to make them passable.
Since the general consensus is that hellions totally suck, it shouldn't be hard to pick them up pretty cheap.

lambsandlions wrote:So I am looking at the new Dark Artisan formation because it has been given a lot of really good reviews. The unit is pretty expensive and usually going to look something like:

Hemmy: agonizer, wwp, syndriq's stump140
Talos: chainflail 125
Cronos: Spirit probe 125
Total: 380pts
snip....

WWP is the reason for the season here. DS in a talos and nearly guarantee that it survives to get into assault with some bonuses. Haemi is a IC meaning LOS, so stick him in front and start wound shuffling like a boss. Against any sort of moderately static army you're dropping in a threat that has to be dealt with immediately and is hyper durable, taking pressure off the rest of the list for a turn. Your opponent may not want to shoot at this squad, but you're not giving them a choice really. They either kill it or have 2 MC's moping up a unit + every turn (if you can manage a multi charge). Pure CC potential, a full Talos squad would do better. However, that squad is going to take 3-4 turns to get there, and by that time is probably going to be whittled down considerably.

Alt: look at the 5 man talos formation. Can do roughly the same thing pressure wise, and you are likely to get into CC mostly intact. Costs more, but also going to soak more wounds as well.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Reavers cap at 12 models, hellions at 20. The only use for hellions is taking advantage of that full sized unit. Web Way in 20 and they will maul a unit (at 18" range), with enough survivors left to fire again and assault.
Reavers are very good, but I can see a use for 3 units of scourge, 2 units of reavers, and a single hellion blob. If you use a coven haemonculus, they land with fearless. If you use a normal one, they gain fearless on turn 4. I'm not saying hellions are great, everyone take them. I'm saying this is the only way I can see to make them passable.
Since the general consensus is that hellions totally suck, it shouldn't be hard to pick them up pretty cheap.

^^ This. If you are going to field hellions, a giant unit of 20 is about the only advantage they have over any other choice. 40 poison shots on an MC isn't terrible, and there's the chance they survive to do something else. Again, no one's saying this makes for a competitive choice (would need play testing). But if Hellions have a competitive usage, this is probably it: Dropping 40 twin linked poison shots into blobs/MC's.