Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah their formations. Also all of the formations have the freakish spectactle rule. I believe.

I may need to invest in a few more Pain Engines.

My collection was always coven-themed, so i have plenty of wracks and grotesques (conversions all..) but only a measily three of each pain engine

I'm liking the feth-your--leadership possibilities. Shame a bunch of our stuff doesn't work well against Marines though

I think one of the things people miss about the Coven is that they have Fear and while not a amazing ability, you still do take fear checks against them at -1 LD.

Hollismason wrote:
I think one of the things people miss about the Coven is that they have Fear and while not a amazing ability, you still do take fear checks against them at -1 LD.

Well considering there are alot of Sm playes, it doesnt matter too much.

Yeah pretty much.

DaKKaLAnce wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
I think one of the things people miss about the Coven is that they have Fear and while not a amazing ability, you still do take fear checks against them at -1 LD.

Well considering there are alot of Sm playes, it doesnt matter too much.

the fundimental problem with 40k is that 60+% of the players are SM. Immune to fear and morale checks, 4s accross the board with a 3+ save. With that average, things that are geared to killing Geq or forcing morale checks are basically useless. At least mortars and flamers have a chance of downing a marine. PGLs do not....

Well, five out of the (thirteen?) armies fit that bill, so it provides a good baseline to consider.

I had another great game with Wyches running this as part of my list:

8x Wyches
- Hydra
- Hekatrix
- Raider with Shock Prow (I ran a Scalpel Squadron and was planning on -1Ld tank shocking)

8x Wyches
- Hydra
- Hekatrix
- Raider with Shock Prow

5x Wyches
- Hydra
- Venom w/Cannons

I got +1T drugs and mulched scads Orks in CC. In one instance I got a turn 4 assault off on a 17x Boyz squad and with Furious charge was rolling 25 S4 attacks (3 shred) killed eight, and wiped them all out with a sweeping advance, losing just a single Wych. All those S5 attacks and a T4, 4++, 5+ FNP on defense was just stunningly good for 10 points. They were even doing fine surviving shooting attacks and zero died in overwatch.

Oh and 9x Reavers with T5 was ridiculous. Reavers are one of the best units in 40k now.

Yeah I kind of don't think Wyches suck , I'm not sure why people still think this is the case when they have a 4++, 5+ in CC.If you charge turn 2 near a Haemy or have the Animus go off or both, they're turn 4 abilities, Urien especially seems like he'd mesh well.I think a cool army would be Coven w/ Formations w/ Wyches as allies w/ Flyers Small to medium size units of Grotesques to tie up units then Wyches to charge in to add in additional attacks etc...

Alot of lists are including Kabalite Warriors in the lists in 5 man squads w/ Blasters, why not just take 5 Wyches really.

Eh? Did I miss a step? Reavers are T5 now?

Combat drugs, Jimsolo.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah I kind of don't think Wyches suck , I'm not sure why people still think this is the case when they have a 4++, 5+ in CC.If you charge turn 2 near a Haemy or have the Animus go off or both, they're turn 4 abilities, Urien especially seems like he'd mesh well.I think a cool army would be Coven w/ Formations w/ Wyches as allies w/ Flyers Small to medium size units of Grotesques to tie up units then Wyches to charge in to add in additional attacks etc...

Alot of lists are including Kabalite Warriors in the lists in 5 man squads w/ Blasters, why not just take 5 Wyches really.

Wyches don't suck at all. Folks have been complaining that they suck because they can't wipe out Land Raiders and superheavy vehicles anymore which they never should have done in the first place. But they're buffed in a few ways CC-wise and utility-wise from last codex.

- you don't have to pay 2 pts/model for haywire now, so that's effectively a -2 pt decrease

- Power from Pain is *MUCH* better for them.
c
- Combat drugs are more useful in their new role because they usually didn't matter before when they were just suiciding against vehicles.

- Raiders are significantly safer so less risk of vehicle explosions. In fact a lot of opponents will think that shooting at Wyches with a 3+ jink isn't worth it and allow them to carry out their attacks.


I think people are still envisioning them as purely little tie-up suicide units though, which I think is wrong. Yes they can do that now still, however I think their best configuration is 6-8 Wyches in a Raider w/nightshields & disintigrator cannon, Hekatrix, and Hydra Gauntlets. That really feels like the sweet spot to me because it's fairly resilient with PfP and 3+ jink, can win CCs against shooty units and certain CC units, and the Hekatrix can tie up or maybe defeat guys with power fists.

What what what. You just listed two things that aren't improvements in anyway for their effectiveness in fighting with infantry. If you didn't want to wreck tanks with them you didn't have to take the HWG, now it's not even an option. This doesn't make them any better in strictly infantry at all. Whether combat drugs improved or not is debatable, but certainly not just by the logic that "they didn't matter vs vehicles", see the last statement. Still doesn't make them any better in CC. The loss of the Duke makes combat drugs significantly worse imo he was a must for Wych heavy armies and was just an excellent character.

mercury14 wrote:

I got +1T drugs and mulched scads Orks in CC. All those S5 attacks and a T4, 4++, 5+ FNP on defense was just stunningly good for 10 points.

S5 attacks? How did you swing that? Wyches are 3, furious is +1, drugs you said was toughness.
25 attacks, half hit, half wound, save on 6+. You're looking at 6-7 kills as an average result. You get 8, which is just a little on the hot side.
Overwatch (~30 shots, depending on weapons) should have produced 5 hits, 3+ to wound and FnP as the only save, producing 2 to 3 kills.
Surviving Orcs should have downed 2 more with weight of attacks.
It's still a decent outcome, winning by 4 or 5, with a massive initiative advantage.
On the other hand, if those boyz got off a single round of normal shooting, the wyches aren't likely to arrive in good form.

Wyches are about as good as Warriors. Meaning that you've got to take some of them unless you're running unbound, and both are outclassed in every possible way by venoms and reavers.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Overwatch (~30 shots, depending on weapons) should have produced 5 hits, 3+ to wound and FnP as the only save, producing 2 to 3 kills.

EDIT: Nevermind, I'm an idiot... I'm confusing phases with sub-phases.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

I got +1T drugs and mulched scads Orks in CC. All those S5 attacks and a T4, 4++, 5+ FNP on defense was just stunningly good for 10 points.

S5 attacks? How did you swing that? Wyches are 3, furious is +1, drugs you said was toughness.
25 attacks, half hit, half wound, save on 6+. You're looking at 6-7 kills as an average result. You get 8, which is just a little on the hot side.
Overwatch (~30 shots, depending on weapons) should have produced 5 hits, 3+ to wound and FnP as the only save, producing 2 to 3 kills.
Surviving Orcs should have downed 2 more with weight of attacks.
It's still a decent outcome, winning by 4 or 5, with a massive initiative advantage.
On the other hand, if those boyz got off a single round of normal shooting, the wyches aren't likely to arrive in good form.

Wyches are about as good as Warriors. Meaning that you've got to take some of them unless you're running unbound, and both are outclassed in every possible way by venoms and reavers.

Typo on the S5, should have been S4 (which I mentioned it was in the previous sentence). Furious charge.

I didn't have any overwatch but it wasn't due to luck. Remember my Wyches were T4 so your math based on 3+ to wound is off. Also my Wyches were in cover so they had 5+ cover save, 5+ FNP. None died which is mathematically an average result.

mercury14 wrote:
I had another great game with Wyches running this as part of my list:

8x Wyches
- Hydra
- Hekatrix
- Raider with Shock Prow (I ran a Scalpel Squadron and was planning on -1Ld tank shocking)

8x Wyches
- Hydra
- Hekatrix
- Raider with Shock Prow

5x Wyches
- Hydra
- Venom w/Cannons

I got +1T drugs and mulched scads Orks in CC. In one instance I got a turn 4 assault off on a 17x Boyz squad and with Furious charge was rolling 25 S4 attacks (3 shred) killed eight, and wiped them all out with a sweeping advance, losing just a single Wych. All those S5 attacks and a T4, 4++, 5+ FNP on defense was just stunningly good for 10 points. They were even doing fine surviving shooting attacks and zero died in overwatch.

Oh and 9x Reavers with T5 was ridiculous. Reavers are one of the best units in 40k now.

Shock prows allow rams not tank shock. Chain snares for tank shock.

Nope, shock prow allows both ram and tank shock. At least in my copy....

Could be a typo. Mine only says that shock prows let the Raider have a ram attack.

A vehicle with a shock prow can Tank Shock and Ram even if it is not a tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:

I didn't have any overwatch but it wasn't due to luck. Remember my Wyches were T4 so your math based on 3+ to wound is off. Also my Wyches were in cover so they had 5+ cover save, 5+ FNP. None died which is mathematically an average result.

You're right, they were T4.
30 shots, 5 hits, 1/2 wound, 2/3rds fail 5+ cover, 2/3rds fail 5+ feel no pain.
Average of 1.11 wounds.

What odd about the wych love is that on turn 4 after rolling up +1 Toughness and getting into combat intact, they are about as good as a BA assault marine, without a jump pack.
Guess I should take another look at BA.

They are cheaper than said BA assault marine though.

In any case, wytches are far from amazing, but they have their uses.mostly in lategame clearing of small objective holders as far as I see.

What I am surprised about is the fact that Lhaemans don't seem to be getting enough love.

Only problem with them is 0 Assault grenades. Still 10points for a 2+ Poison 6s instant death is a steal and they benefit from PfP.

Archon has plasma grenades, if you take the heretical step of actually keeping him with his Court.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Archon has plasma grenades, if you take the heretical step of actually keeping him with his Court.

Unfortunately I don't believe anyone but the archon would benefit from them.

Is that how it works now, I thought that just one person had to have them.

New topic:

Transporting Grotesques inside Falcons, terrible idea?

Hollismason: In the old dex, Archons could buy a phantasm grenade launcher, which would grant assault grenades and defensive grenades to everyone in his unit.

That is probably what you're remembering.

Probably, anyway small units of a Grotesques in Falcons, yay or nay.

It's the only 6 transport capacity vehicle I know of for Eldar unless there is a Forgeworld thing.


Only reason I brought it up was because of the Grotesquirie, but then it'd take 2 turns for the Grotesques to Charge , they'd have to get out, wait a turn, then charge.

Hollismason wrote:
What I am surprised about is the fact that Lhaemans don't seem to be getting enough love.

Only problem with them is 0 Assault grenades. Still 10points for a 2+ Poison 6s instant death is a steal and they benefit from PfP.

Lhaemeans are fantastic. Good initiative and WS, 10 FREAKIN POINTS, for poisoned 2+ attacks. These ladies are way undercosted for their potential, and they will be an all-star assault unit. Problems with Wraithknights? Splinter pistol, charge, force saves. Same with Riptides, or any other high-T nasty out there.

So what are some good Court Layouts?

200 Points
7 Lhaemen, 2 Medusae
Raider w/ Nighshield

or
2 Slyth, 2 Medusae
Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons

150
4 Lhaemen , 1 Medusae
Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons

100
Medusae ,
Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons

When you think about it , 1 person court with Venom Cannon seems kind of like a steal, if you consider it to just be part of the vehicle, but Medusae cannot fire if the Venom moves 12. However it could deepstrike and flame something.

Hollismason wrote:
So what are some good Court Layouts?

200 Points
7 Lhaemen, 2 Medusae
Raider w/ Nighshield

or
2 Slyth, 2 Medusae
Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons

150
4 Lhaemen , 1 Medusae
Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons

100
Medusae ,
Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons

When you think about it , 1 person court with Venom Cannon seems kind of like a steal, if you consider it to just be part of the vehicle, but Medusae cannot fire if the Venom moves 12. However it could deepstrike and flame something.

I like the following:

1. a Raider full of Lhamaeans,
2. a Venom full of Sslyth with 1 Lhamaean for Leadership,
3. a Raider with a mixture of Sslyth and Lhamaeans,
4. a Raider with Medusae with a Lhamaean for LD

This is just the ones I like. The Ur-Ghuls aren't even bad, I just like Sslyth and Lhamaeans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
Probably, anyway small units of a Grotesques in Falcons, yay or nay.

It's the only 6 transport capacity vehicle I know of for Eldar unless there is a Forgeworld thing.


Only reason I brought it up was because of the Grotesquirie, but then it'd take 2 turns for the Grotesques to Charge , they'd have to get out, wait a turn, then charge.

I wouldn't put Grots in a Falcon for the exact reason you stated. Falcons need to sit in the backfield and say "pew pew". Grots need to bum-rush things and say "punch punch". Bad combo.