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I guess the question is now that tenebre is lawyering up, what kind of lawyer is best for this job? And I believe he'll want to contact a lawyer local to BTP, right?

Probably a lawyer or law group that specializes in contract damages

A lawyer who is also a miniature enthusiast who will go pro bono is the ticket. Someone who is into miniatures will probably enjoy a case like this, and quite frankly it sounds like an open and shut case.

 Lt. Coldfire wrote:
A lawyer who is also a miniature enthusiast who will go pro bono is the ticket. Someone who is into miniatures will probably enjoy a case like this, and quite frankly it sounds like an open and shut case.

I wouldn't put the cart out in front of the horse just yet. It may seem like that to us but you will have to convince a judge and possibly a jury of that and that will take time and seeing what shawn is like he will drag it out as long as possible because this could be a death knell to his company.

TheAuldGrump wrote:My advice is to document everything.

Keep the e-mails with his offers.
Keep the e-mails with his retractions.
Keep everything.

And, yes, take him to the cleaners, and if he published any lies online then add a case of libel.

What he has done has entered felony levels, in regards to the amount of money involved.

The Auld Grump

Ustrello wrote:

 Lt. Coldfire wrote:
A lawyer who is also a miniature enthusiast who will go pro bono is the ticket. Someone who is into miniatures will probably enjoy a case like this, and quite frankly it sounds like an open and shut case.

I wouldn't put the cart out in front of the horse just yet. It may seem like that to us but you will have to convince a judge and possibly a jury of that and that will take time and seeing what shawn is like he will drag it out as long as possible because this could be a death knell to his company.

Yeah this is actually heating up again, with straight up lying on documented cases of what he is saying and what he is doing, are not the charges potentially going to go beyond just he ripped him off? I mean are we not

in the libel category yet? In regards to the time, I think the fact he is going to this length and possibly opening himself up to other charges means either he really has no idea what is going on/how the world works or he

just wants to drag this out as long as possible to win by attrition (the PR created by this would probably damage or destroy his company but at this point it seems he may be willing to do that). This seems maddening.

Also sadly I cannot help out as I only know I think two lawyers and they are both in Canada, and don't really take cases like this.

He doesn't need an attorney to do this pro bono as he can add in reasonable attorney fees to the proposed settlement.

I recommend retaining counsel in SLC if possible.

Of course, tenebre deserves the best lawyer:

 heartserenade wrote:
Of course, tenebre deserves the best lawyer:

My data plan, god damn you!

A very sad state of affairs and I'm really suprised with MWG's behaviour also.

Hope you get your Chaos Dwarves sorted tenebre, they are really great models and its a shame to see them treated as such..

 heartserenade wrote:
Of course, tenebre deserves the best lawyer:

Objection!

If you pay attention, MWG did an endorsement video today. Of a different studio.
I guess the got the message and refrained from endorsing BTP.

 Thairne wrote:
If you pay attention, MWG did an endorsement video today. Of a different studio.
I guess the got the message and refrained from endorsing BTP.

... I doubt it. They're probably finishing up their BTP one.

 FatherKnowsBest wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
If you pay attention, MWG did an endorsement video today. Of a different studio.
I guess the got the message and refrained from endorsing BTP.

... I doubt it. They're probably finishing up their BTP one.

I don't know. That BTP video by MWG is now got way more dislikes than likes at this point.

I could see them backing away from BTP at the moment. At least, I would hope so.

Well at least they said straight up that it is a sponsored video. So definately cash flew. They again stated that they only do this with studios they KNOW they do good work (which, in dubio pro reo) I fully believe. Simply for the fact that any studio will put out top level work if the client is MWG.

Welp. It does not appear that MWG has had any kind of change of heart. According to a post asking about the vanishing video on their forum:

http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=112653#p1000590

Actually it's simpler than that. I got enough testimonials and case studies that I no longer needed any more, and most people were focusing on the wrong thing.

We are still going to make a video for Blue Table Painting, just like we do for other painting services who have done great work for us.

It is unfortunate that people took my "only wanting good comments" in the wrong way. I know there are negative experiences out there, but I was only interested in the good ones as I was going to include them in the video.

If I were making a promo video for the MiniWarGaming Vault and wanted testimonials, I wouldn't ask for people to send me their negative reviews, just the positive. This is normal marketing.

To make it clear, I have full confidence in BTP, not just from my own experiences, but from many, many others' as well. They have done nearly 8000 projects, so obviously some people will have had bad experiences, which unfortunately attract more attention than the good ones.

I am going to lock this thread as I am not interested in having it go the way of the threads on other forums that I have seen. I realize some will be offended by this, but that is life.

SIGH.

Well, I stand corrected.
Time to cancel the membership.

 curran12 wrote:
Welp. It does not appear that MWG has had any kind of change of heart. According to a post asking about the vanishing video on their forum:

http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=112653#p1000590

Actually it's simpler than that. I got enough testimonials and case studies that I no longer needed any more, and most people were focusing on the wrong thing.

We are still going to make a video for Blue Table Painting, just like we do for other painting services who have done great work for us.

It is unfortunate that people took my "only wanting good comments" in the wrong way. I know there are negative experiences out there, but I was only interested in the good ones as I was going to include them in the video.

If I were making a promo video for the MiniWarGaming Vault and wanted testimonials, I wouldn't ask for people to send me their negative reviews, just the positive. This is normal marketing.

To make it clear, I have full confidence in BTP, not just from my own experiences, but from many, many others' as well. They have done nearly 8000 projects, so obviously some people will have had bad experiences, which unfortunately attract more attention than the good ones.

I am going to lock this thread as I am not interested in having it go the way of the threads on other forums that I have seen. I realize some will be offended by this, but that is life.

SIGH.

Of course, how could he see that asking for only good comments would only lead to people taking it the wrong way.

 Lt. Coldfire wrote:
A lawyer who is also a miniature enthusiast who will go pro bono is the ticket. Someone who is into miniatures will probably enjoy a case like this, and quite frankly it sounds like an open and shut case.

I don't think he'd really need pro bono representation. This will still be filed in small claims court, where the fees are minimal. Also, there is arguably going to be very little in the way of discovery to handle. There aren't a lot of potential witnesses to depose, assuming they even bother doing deposals for the size of the suit involved. As such, there probably aren't going to be a lot of billable hours involved.

I would like to believe that BTP will change their tune as soon as they get that nice, official looking letter from a local attorney's office stating the intent to file for damages in the local Magistrate Court.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 curran12 wrote:
Welp. It does not appear that MWG has had any kind of change of heart. According to a post asking about the vanishing video on their forum:

http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=112653#p1000590

To make it clear, I have full confidence in BTP, not just from my own experiences, but from many, many others' as well. They have done nearly 8000 projects, so obviously some people will have had bad experiences, which unfortunately attract more attention than the good ones.

I am going to lock this thread as I am not interested in having it go the way of the threads on other forums that I have seen. I realize some will be offended by this, but that is life.

SIGH.

I think the saddest part is how badly he's missing the point. The issue isn't that the customer is dissatisfied with the results of his commission. The issue is that BTP is unwilling to make any reasonable effor to address said dissatisfaction.

Saldiven wrote:

 Lt. Coldfire wrote:
A lawyer who is also a miniature enthusiast who will go pro bono is the ticket. Someone who is into miniatures will probably enjoy a case like this, and quite frankly it sounds like an open and shut case.

I don't think he'd really need pro bono representation. This will still be filed in small claims court, where the fees are minimal. Also, there is arguably going to be very little in the way of discovery to handle. There aren't a lot of potential witnesses to depose, assuming they even bother doing deposals for the size of the suit involved. As such, there probably aren't going to be a lot of billable hours involved.

I would like to believe that BTP will change their tune as soon as they get that nice, official looking letter from a local attorney's office stating the intent to file for damages in the local Magistrate Court.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 curran12 wrote:
Welp. It does not appear that MWG has had any kind of change of heart. According to a post asking about the vanishing video on their forum:

http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=112653#p1000590

To make it clear, I have full confidence in BTP, not just from my own experiences, but from many, many others' as well. They have done nearly 8000 projects, so obviously some people will have had bad experiences, which unfortunately attract more attention than the good ones.

I am going to lock this thread as I am not interested in having it go the way of the threads on other forums that I have seen. I realize some will be offended by this, but that is life.

SIGH.

I think the saddest part is how badly he's missing the point. The issue isn't that the customer is dissatisfied with the results of his commission. The issue is that BTP is unwilling to make any reasonable effor to address said dissatisfaction.

How are they not willing to make a reasonable effort to adress the dissatisfactions? Have you seen the OP's second video? They gave him 4 possible ways they can resolve it for him.

And retracted all but one of them.

 curran12 wrote:
And retracted all but one of them.

After the OP said he wouldnt send his models back to evil BTP and asked for a 60% refund instead of the amount that was offered.

You cant say BTP didnt put any effort into fixing this. And you cant say that both parties are working towards a fair solution either. If the OP thinks his way to justice is through the law then he should go ahead with that, but if that fails then I wont be surprised if BTP retracts all of the solutions instead of leaving him one.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
And retracted all but one of them.

After the OP said he wouldnt send his models back to evil BTP and asked for a 60% refund instead of the amount that was offered.

You cant say BTP didnt put any effort into fixing this. And you cant say that both parties are working towards a fair solution either. If the OP thinks his way to justice is through the law then he should go ahead with that, but if that fails then I wont be surprised if BTP retracts all of the solutions instead of leaving him one.

 curran12 wrote:
Welp. It does not appear that MWG has had any kind of change of heart. According to a post asking about the vanishing video on their forum:

http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=112653#p1000590

Actually it's simpler than that. I got enough testimonials and case studies that I no longer needed any more, and most people were focusing on the wrong thing.

We are still going to make a video for Blue Table Painting, just like we do for other painting services who have done great work for us.

It is unfortunate that people took my "only wanting good comments" in the wrong way. I know there are negative experiences out there, but I was only interested in the good ones as I was going to include them in the video.

If I were making a promo video for the MiniWarGaming Vault and wanted testimonials, I wouldn't ask for people to send me their negative reviews, just the positive. This is normal marketing.

To make it clear, I have full confidence in BTP, not just from my own experiences, but from many, many others' as well. They have done nearly 8000 projects, so obviously some people will have had bad experiences, which unfortunately attract more attention than the good ones.

I am going to lock this thread as I am not interested in having it go the way of the threads on other forums that I have seen. I realize some will be offended by this, but that is life.

SIGH.

Wow . I wonder if this is one of the "other forums". First party forums are tough for that reason, obviously, it doesn't make a lot of business sense for them to allow negative conversations about themselves... but it also can tend to clamp down on conversation / discussion in general (and leave only the people interested in talking "positively" about the company left).

 curran12 wrote:
Welp. It does not appear that MWG has had any kind of change of heart. According to a post asking about the vanishing video on their forum:

http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=112653#p1000590

Actually it's simpler than that. I got enough testimonials and case studies that I no longer needed any more, and most people were focusing on the wrong thing.

We are still going to make a video for Blue Table Painting, just like we do for other painting services who have done great work for us.

It is unfortunate that people took my "only wanting good comments" in the wrong way. I know there are negative experiences out there, but I was only interested in the good ones as I was going to include them in the video.

If I were making a promo video for the MiniWarGaming Vault and wanted testimonials, I wouldn't ask for people to send me their negative reviews, just the positive. This is normal marketing.

To make it clear, I have full confidence in BTP, not just from my own experiences, but from many, many others' as well. They have done nearly 8000 projects, so obviously some people will have had bad experiences, which unfortunately attract more attention than the good ones.

I am going to lock this thread as I am not interested in having it go the way of the threads on other forums that I have seen. I realize some will be offended by this, but that is life.

SIGH.

I have to say I don't normally get involved in these things and although read about Chapterhouse and other issues I didn't post in those threads but after reading this something compelled me (The Voices I tell you! lol)

I think what I find the most annoying is the typical response you get from large companies the 'Well, many other people are happy with their experience' approach. Thats all fine and good but its ignoring the issue. Just because only a small number of people have had negative experiences doesn't mean that their complaints should be ignored, attacked or just passed off as MWG put it in their recent video "They are one of the biggest painting services in the world and because of that you see alot of negative comments on the internet and any time a company gets big you are going to have more negativity found on the interwebs". If this was dealt with in a fast, fair and timley manner it wouldn't have snow-balled into this huge debate and the customer who had an issue could have posted a follow up saying that despite having an issue BTP worked with him in a friendly accommodating manner and its now all resolved.

I have nothing against BTP and have seen them produce some great looking armies and have no doubt that due to a huge turn around sometimes quality control may slip (I have exactly the same issue with Forge Worlds 'quality control' from time to time) but dealing with things on a case-by-case basis they have dropped the ball on how this was handled and having plent of happy customers does not exuse this.

And again I have nothing against MWG and have been following their videos for a very long time. I like the overall positive approach they normally bring to the hobby but again think here they dropped the ball and came across kind of on the attack. I think it would be fine for them to post a video saying that have heard about a few negative reviews and while they were not getting involved in that just wanted to pass on how happy they have been with BTP's services. Instead I think they got involved in a way that wasn't needed and made that outrageous statement I included in the first part of my post. They might be friends IRL but this was an issue a BTP client had with BTP and its down to them to resolve it without the somewhat bullying approach that IMO came accross.

And again just want to make clear I follow both BTP and MWG and will continue to do so I just think some of the choices made were bad calls but we live and learn and hopefully this will all get resolved and we can all move on and enjoy the hobby again.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
And retracted all but one of them.

After the OP said he wouldnt send his models back to evil BTP and asked for a 60% refund instead of the amount that was offered.

You cant say BTP didnt put any effort into fixing this. And you cant say that both parties are working towards a fair solution either. If the OP thinks his way to justice is through the law then he should go ahead with that, but if that fails then I wont be surprised if BTP retracts all of the solutions instead of leaving him one.

THE ONLY solution on the table (BTP retracted all others i accepted after they offered them) is giving them the army for yet another go. That is neither reasonable nor does it show any effort on their part. There was never any intent to do ANYTHING other than that.

The refund they offered was 20% in STORE Credit and i had to remove the video.

I accepted the BTP offer to have them repainted by GMM. 3 days later BTP emails and says.. sorry GMM wants too much no deal. They made the offer in the first place. This is beyond absurd from any business perspective.
He offered to fly out the artist and i accepted ... 3 days later he retracted and said it was too difficult etc. so NOT BTP is NOT working towards anything at all. No middle ground whatsoever. Send back the army 1000000 times is the only offer.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
And retracted all but one of them.

After the OP said he wouldnt send his models back to evil BTP and asked for a 60% refund instead of the amount that was offered.

You cant say BTP didnt put any effort into fixing this. And you cant say that both parties are working towards a fair solution either. If the OP thinks his way to justice is through the law then he should go ahead with that, but if that fails then I wont be surprised if BTP retracts all of the solutions instead of leaving him one.

Did you miss the part were Blue table painting stated they would only fix the models they thought needed fixing? The list wasn't even HALF of the list the OP had. Shawn basically said "Your wrong, that model is perfect."

Even the models that blue table painting said they would fix were models he tried to contact multiple times to get fixed before the army was sent out. And even then some of their "fixes" were even the issues he was trying to point out.

Now to mention Blue Table painting refused to paint it in the colors he asked for, and even did the conversions he requested and paid for.

How many more times do you think Blue table painting has to botch this project before it's safe to say you don't want to deal with them any more? Because it's prety clear at this point that at blue table painting the customer isn't right, only shawn gately is.

 tenebre wrote:


The refund they offered was 20% in STORE Credit and i had to remove the video.

They really are full of them selves if you think you would come back to them after the way they treated you.
O____O

"Yay! instore credit so I can send more modles to you so you can give them a botched paint job!"

 tenebre wrote:
The refund they offered was 20% in STORE Credit and i had to remove the video.

I accepted the BTP offer to have them repainted by GMM. 3 days later BTP emails and says.. sorry GMM wants too much no deal. They made the offer in the first place. This is beyond absurd from any business perspective.
He offered to fly out the artist and i accepted ... 3 days later he retracted and said it was too difficult etc. so NOT BTP is NOT working towards anything at all. No middle ground whatsoever. Send back the army 1000000 times is the only offer.

Oh wow, I did not realize the offer was only for store credit for the refund. That is... bad.

This interaction between BTP and Tenebre feels like the one between Vader and Lando in Empire.

It may just be the conspiracy theorist in me, but I wonder if come court time BTP uses the MWG video full of positive only reviews as some sort of character evidence?

 TheCustomLime wrote:
This interaction between BTP and Tenebre feels like the one between Vader and Lando in Empire.

Ah, well done there . I just re-watched this so it's fresh in my mind...

Lando: Lord Vader, what about Leia and the Wookiee?
Darth Vader: They must never again leave this city.
Lando: That was never a condition of our agreement, nor was giving Han to this bounty hunter!
Darth Vader: Perhaps you think you're being treated unfairly?
Lando: No.
Darth Vader: Good. You know it would be unfortunate if I had to leave a garrison here.
Lando: This deal is getting worse all the time!

(some time later)

Darth Vader: Calrissian. Take the princess and the Wookie to my ship.
Lando: You said they'd be left at the city under my supervision!
Darth Vader: I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.