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2017/02/05 22:40:13
Subject: Re:The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
GoatboyBeta wrote: The DA are in that awkward position where all the things they have done to continue the cover up are probably now worse than the original misdeed. Maybe they will finally come clean and receive absolution from the Imperial authorities? Considering the desperate times and if they have a Primarch and the GK vouching for them, it could happen.
It doesn't really, what they have done as part of the cover up is no worse than what some other chapters have got up to, the minotaurs being one of those chapters. Yeah, it's been quite an unsavoury 10000 years, but hey, half your legion turning traitor right after/during the heresy with the guy leading them being all pumped up on chaos roids.... I know which one I think would warrant Russ being sent to knock on their door to escort them to Belize, and it isn't the cover up shenanigans.
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2017/02/05 22:42:06
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
GoatboyBeta wrote: The DA are in that awkward position where all the things they have done to continue the cover up are probably now worse than the original misdeed. Maybe they will finally come clean and receive absolution from the Imperial authorities? Considering the desperate times and if they have a Primarch and the GK vouching for them, it could happen.
It doesn't really, what they have done as part of the cover up is no worse than what some other chapters have got up to, the minotaurs being one of those chapters. Yeah, it's been quite an unsavoury 10000 years, but hey, half your legion turning traitor right after/during the heresy with the guy leading them being all pumped up on chaos roids.... I know which one I think would warrant Russ being sent to knock on their door to escort them to Belize, and it isn't the cover up shenanigans.
The Minotaurs are rumoured to have ties directly to the High Lords of Terra though, so anything they do is most likely authorised.
2017/02/05 22:49:34
Subject: Re:The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
SarisKhan wrote: Hmm, Roboute's apparently gonna fight the Black Legion. Any chance we get some Abaddon vs. Guilliman action? That could be quite interesting.
Considering Abaddon would be fighting a Primarch, I very much doubt that would end well for him. Daemon weapon or no. Plus we've yet to see how Abaddon does post injury. Sure, he's Astartes but it was hardly a flesh wound he took there lol.
Well, Abaddon is a veteran Terminator with a Primarch-grade weapon, a Daemon sword and the combined favour of 4 Chaos Gods. Though you're right that wound could prove... inconvenient in a potential confrontation.
Anyway, I'm pretty hyped about all this stuff. Just keeping my standards at a medium setting and enjoying the story for what it is.
And in the fluff Abaddon started possibly with a leg up on other marines as it was rumored he was a larger than normal sized "clone" of horus to begin with. A relatively poor copy of a primarch augmented by four mystical powers with even greater abilities sounds like a good match for a sickly actual primarch just resuscitated and still on power armor life support.
2017/02/05 22:54:35
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
While I don't like this rumor that Abbadon is going to die - I can see him coming back as Abbadon ascended. Just like Fantasy Archaon showed up in AoS riding that monstrous chaos dragon creature.
Given all he's posted so far, I presume this question was rhetorical?
casvalremdeikun wrote: That is, by far, the most irritating part of GW releasing Rowboat first. Dorn and the Lion don't already have FW models.
The two have nothing to do with one another.
And why is this annoying now, and now 2 months ago when Magnus came out? Because it's Roboute and the utterly OTT Flanderisation hatred of the Ultramarines the saturates the Intertnet now as one of GW's highest forms of baseless hyperbole?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/02/05 23:25:43
Maybe you could stop hating him if you accepted some of the stories about him which show him as a benevolent tactically minded master of warcraft. Most stories about him actually do that. .
Indeed. One of the best things to come from the Horus Heresy series was that they managed to make RG and his cookie-cutter Legion interesting.
I went into the Ultramarines books all prepared to dislike them, and came out of them thinking that Guilliman was actually pretty cool.
2017/02/05 23:28:53
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
ImAGeek wrote: ... He gets a lot of hate for not much reason...
Oh the reason is obvious: Matt Ward.
And not specifically the Marine Codex he wrote, but more the interview in White Dwarf where he made the now-infamous "spiritual liege" comment, and the "every Marine wants to be an Ultramarine" comment.
And I'm not blaming Ward for this (at least not directly). More the Internet echo-chamber that, as mentioned above, Flanderised the ever living feth out of both the comment and the Ultramarines so they went from being exemplars of the Astartes to rigid adherents of a book where they don't do anything unless its written exactly in the Codex Astartes (something the actual fluff has never conveyed in the slightest).
rollawaythestone wrote: While I don't like this rumor that Abbadon is going to die - I can see him coming back as Abbadon ascended. Just like Fantasy Archaon showed up in AoS riding that monstrous chaos dragon creature.
Indeed. Going be recent precedent, it will be a 120mm base covered in a 12" tall pillar of swyrley gak(TM) with the top half of Abaddon buried in there somewhere if you squint.
2017/02/05 23:36:21
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
Bobthehero wrote: Perhaps he gets the hate for having seemingly no character flaws.
He does if you actually read the books he's in rather than just subscribing to the whole 'spiritual leige' bullcrap on the internet.
What are they then? So far you've done nothing being reinforce the idea he's worthy of the Spiritual Liege mockery.
He lacked empathy and the ability to delegate. He was unable to trust people to accomplish anything but himself to the point that even the emperor wasn't beyond question. He needed his hands in all aspects of his empire to the point that you can cripple it by distracting him.
He was so stalwart in his ways that he forbade improvements in his legion and it took a whole slew of his men getting gibbed before he considered some kinda organizational heraldry.
He was also a hoarder, and had a room full of gak he'd collected from all over the place.
You just happened to jump at the "hurr durr rowboat' crap instead of actually giving him a chance.
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
2017/02/05 23:36:42
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
insaniak wrote: Indeed. Going be recent precedent, it will be a 120mm base covered in a 12" tall pillar of swyrley gak(TM) with the top half of Abaddon buried in there somewhere if you squint.
It's Swyrley Bull gak™. Get it right.
And he'll probably end up riding some sort of hideously designed monstrous thing and end up as one of the line's most expensive single miniatures.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 01:45:51
rollawaythestone wrote: While I don't like this rumor that Abbadon is going to die - I can see him coming back as Abbadon ascended. Just like Fantasy Archaon showed up in AoS riding that monstrous chaos dragon creature.
Quick note, that's his horse from the original model, who was always a demon. He was fed Greater Daemons and grew to that size after devouring a bloodthirster, a GUO, a LoC, and a VerminLord (or whatever they are) that Archeon slew himself.. He didn't just show up that way.
I'm actually hopeful that Abbadon will get just an updated model, not something that has made him xbawkshueg. I really like him as a character just being a really old, powerful, and shenanigany space marine.
PourSpelur wrote: It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
It's been 20 some-odd year fluff that the Ultramarines were purposefully tied up by the Word Bearers and a warpstorm to keep the might of Ultramar from reinforcing Terra, with new fluff having a flawless attack destroy their fleet amd leaving them without transportation in the first place.....but do I get to be cool if I jump on the hyperbole-filled hate train? 'cause I wanna be cool.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
2017/02/05 23:54:05
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
I'm actually hopeful that Abbadon will get just an updated model, not something that has made him xbawkshueg. I really like him as a character just being a really old, powerful, and shenanigany space marine.
That would be my preference as well. But I have a feeling GW would not have shown his existing model in part1 if he was getting an straight update in the same vein as Kharn and Ahriman.
2017/02/06 00:03:15
Subject: Re:The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
I went into the Ultramarines books all prepared to dislike them, and came out of them thinking that Guilliman was actually pretty cool.
Me too !
Me three.
Almost everything I've read with Ultramarines in it (all the HH books proper, Nightbringer and the Primarch novella) has, overall, raised them in my estimation, they'll never be my favorite Legion, but I'm not as irritated by their existence as I once was.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Alpharius wrote:And remember, the Ultramarines were, I think, by far the largest Legion in 30K and the Traitors worked hard at destroying/limiting/delaying them from the get go - including working to make sure they couldn't get to Terra 'in time'.
Funny when I use that excuse for Lion El'Johnson that he was tied up people say he was on the fence. So for Rob he was held up or was he really defending his empire?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 02:03:47
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
2017/02/06 02:11:04
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
Davor wrote: Funny when I use that excuse for Lion El'Johnson that he was tied up people say he was on the fence.
Probably because that's exactly what the books say.
So for Rob he was held up or was he really defending his empire?
Something about a big warpstorm cutting him off from the rest of the galaxy...
What book? I thought other books said that was not the case at all.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
2017/02/06 02:18:44
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
From the moment he heard about the Heresy (and no, I don't recall which book out of the million or so that I've read so far) the Lion was hedging his bets. They skirt around whether this is as a result of wanting to choose the winning side, or just wanting a clearer idea of what was going on before committing to anything, but the end result is there. He deliberately held off from trying to reach Terra because he wanted more information first.
Guilliman, on the other hand, held off from heading for Terra because he believed the Emperor was already dead and so didn't think there was any point in doing so. And then he was blocked in by the Ruinstorm.
2017/02/06 02:29:45
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
Never herd of them Giga. Thanks for mentioning them. Will check it out when I buy some books next time.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
2017/02/06 02:42:30
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Daft thing about the Dark Angels? Most of the Legions had their traitor elements.
I gamed & followed the DA and was also of the belief that the loyal were actually traitors. However, have you read Angels of Caliban?
Spoiler:
As the Dark Angels made their final preparations to depart back to Caliban, the Lion went back to the Tuchulcha Engine's chamber. He then ordered the device to teleport himself and Holguin, 'Deathbringer', the voted-lieutenant of the Deathwing, back to Macragge. As Sanguinius prepared to execute Curze for his crimes, both the Lion and his lieutenant teleported directly into the chamber and told Sanguinius to stop. As troops entered the room, demanding the Lion to surrender, El'Jonson explained his reasons for the intrusion. He reasoned that Curze had the ability to see precognitive visions of potential futures, and repeated the Night Haunter's claim that his death would one day come at the hands of an assassin sent by the Emperor. If this was true, the Lion reasoned, than it was proof that the Emperor was still alive. Sanguinius knew the Lion's explanation rang true, as he recognised that his own precognitive visions of his inevitable death would also eventually come to pass. When Guilliman demanded to know what would become of Curze, the Lion knelt before his two brothers and promised that he would be Curze's gaoler.
Return to Caliban
Lion El'Jonson and a loyal Calibanite Dark Angels Battle-Brothers
Jonson, wracked with grief over the inability of his Dark Angels to reach Terra in time to prevent the fall of the Emperor during the Siege of Terra at the end of the Horus Heresy, returned to Caliban to reinforce his Dark Angels and recover from the shock of the Heresy. When the starships arrived in Calibanite orbit, they were fired upon by a savage salvo of defensive fire from the surface. The fleet pulled back and Jonson tried to find out what was happening. He learned from a merchant ship that Luther had poisoned the minds of the Space Marine garrison on the world and taken control. It could only be seen by Jonson as the taint of Chaos. Jonson's fury was let loose and the planet suffered. He ordered a systematic orbital bombardment of the planet, to rid the world of Chaos for all time.
The planet burned and its defences were whittled down to nothing. Jonson led his forces personally against the defenders who had taken refuge in the Order's Fortress-Monastery. Jonson found Luther and saw him to be completely corrupted by Chaos, almost nothing of his old friend had survived. Luther, now a Chaos Champion, had been elevated to a strength equal to that of Jonson by the Chaos Gods and the two met in a combat the likes of which would not be seen again. They levelled the monastery around them but the planet was also taking a heavy toll. The bombardment began to crack the surface of the planet, the Dark Angels in orbit unable to see the damage they were doing.
Final Battle
Destruction of Caliban
Caliban is destroyed in a great conflagration during the final battle between El'Jonson and the Arch-Traitor Luther
The battle between Luther and Jonson was titanic, but ended with a psychic attack which appeared to mortally wound Jonson. Luther then realised what he had done, as if a veil of deceit had been lifted from in front of his eyes. He fell to the floor, unwilling to fight any more, but it was too late for Jonson. The enraged Ruinous Powers of Chaos realised they had lost again, and sent a massive Warp storm to wrack the surface of the planet. It then broke apart under the strain, destroyed all but for the monastery of the Order which had been protected by potent defensive force-fields. When the Dark Angels descended to what remained of Caliban, little more than an asteroid upon which stood the Order's fortress-monastery, they searched the ruins and found Luther mumbling that Jonson had been taken by the Watchers in the Dark and would return one day and forgive Luther for his sins. The Dark Angels could not find any trace of their Primarch. The rest of the Dark Angels who had been converted by Luther to the worship of Chaos were sucked into the Warp and scattered across the galaxy. From that time forward they were named the Fallen Angels or simply the Fallen.
Fate of the Lion
During his duel with Luther on Caliban, Lion El'Jonson suffered a severe psychic blow which left him mortally wounded. He was then briefly pulled into the raging Warp vortex. Luther survived the contest, but proved mentally unhinged and was taken prisoner by the Dark Angels. He was placed into a stasis cell deep within the bowels of The Rock (the remains of the Order's mightiest fortress-monastery and all that was left of their world Caliban), to contemplate his crimes against the Chapter's Primarch, his continued existence a secret known only to each successive Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels, whose cell can only be accessed through the use of the Sword of Secrets, the Chapter artifact which is the mark of the Supreme Grand Master's office. Jonson, who had been briefly spirited away into the Warp during the destruction of Caliban, eventually emerged and was taken into a hidden and unreachable chamber deep within the heart of The Rock by the Watchers in the Dark and placed into stasis to keep him alive. This is a secret known only to the Emperor of Mankind Himself who, despite his living death, still sees all upon the Golden Throne. Even the Supreme Grand Master of the Chapter is not privy to this last and greatest secret of the Dark Angels. Some among the Dark Angels whisper that one day the Lion will return to lead one final Crusade intended to achieve the Dark Angels' greatest victory for Mankind and finally bring justice and redemption to the remaining Fallen Angels. None know that this legend has more truth to it than they realize, or that their lost Primarch now sleeps peacefully at the heart of their own fortress-monastery.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/02/06 03:24:35
Also, Angels of Caliban is pretty damn clear that Luther was NOT a loyalist. Not strtictly chaos at that point, more of a secessionist, Zahariel was corrupted by chaos. Astelan was just a basic, power hungry dick.
And the Lion was about to return to Caliban to save his Legion, of which demise he was warned by a Watcher several times abort the Invincible Reason. Yet he chose to teleport back as said above because he realised Big E was still around!
So how did he decide to do the above when doing the other thing was way way better for his own power base? His priorities do seem rather... loyal to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 08:38:11
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2017/02/06 08:56:46
Subject: The Gathering Storm Part III: Rise of the Primarch
Johnson to me seems to be the kind of guy that will NOT go into a situation half-cocked. He has a history of saying "Slow down let's look at the situation, and come up with a plan."
This is pretty much the whole reason he got into that brawl with Leman Russ. Johnson wanted to be a tactician, but Russ ran ahead and charged the enemy. Johnson face-palmed, and did the tactically correct thing. Johnson slays the warlord, Russ gets mad because of stolen glory, and the two throw down.
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So for Rob he was held up or was he really defending his empire? 
