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If professor x is martin luther king jr then magneto is malcom x.
He isnt a supremesist. He is angry and thinks violence is the only language the oppressor understands.
Probably depends on iterations of the character.
There are definitely times where Magneto went right into the "mutants are superior to feeble humans" barrel. And I'd point out that in his early years Malcom X wasn't that far off from advocating black supremacy, at least until he quite the Nation of Islam.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/21 20:44:33
Drifting off topic, but considering Carol Danvers is a Chris Claremont character... A little word on "subtlety" and "undertones."
Spoilering due to image size. These are from a freely available preview pages.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: I tried to read this thread, but seeing manbabies crying about SJW’s makes my eyes bleed.
Anyhoo, I’m really looking forward to Captain Marvel.
I have concerns any time a company or figurehead of a franchise calls out a specific race or gender and tells them they don't matter/ this wasn't made for you/ we don't need your kind.
I have concerns anytime people twist a comment about encouraging more women and minorities into being one about hating white men.
Formosa has all ready broken down her statement and why it was sexist/racist. Something he forgot to mention though was that she followed it up with a "I'm not sexist/racist, but....." comment. It's something that I usually here before a good-ole-boy makes a wonderful comment about inner city youth.
If professor x is martin luther king jr then magneto is malcom x.
He isnt a supremesist. He is angry and thinks violence is the only language the oppressor understands.
Thats not "both sides". Its 2 ideologies fighting for the same thing. Trask and the sentinal program is "the other side". The purifiers. Weapon x. THOSE are your supremesit analogs.
You're right. In the Marvel racism analog, Magneto is not the white supremacist. He's the opposite number, the one who would suppress the white in favor of the non-white. He wants to lord over the white just like the white lorded over him. To be the master and have slaves of his own.
Which is why he is ALSO a villain, and Professor X - the one who wants all sides to be equal, who wants to respect and be respected equally, where there are no slaves or masters, only PEOPLE - is the hero.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/21 20:48:58
Magneto is, in my opinion, the pinnacle of a tragic villain, the man is evil objectively but over the years the horrible things done to him and his brutal responses, I wonder if any of us wouldn't have the same reaction with his kind of power, and professor X, well, he is also a villain for completely different reasons, forcing your mind onto others isn't something good people do.
Ouze wrote: I don't think anyone actually meant to imply Magneto was a white supremacist analogy, I think that was a crossed wire\miscommunication.
Given that Magneto was sent to the Nazi Death Camps as a child, no he's not a white supremacist. He'e the opposite.
And no, Magneto is not evil in any reasonable sense. Magneto has *always* been characterized as "good", because his entire motivation is to unselfishly protect and defend mutantkind from the existential threat that humanity repeatedly brings (e.g. "X-termination").
Doom is very similar, wanting to bring the actual Utopia that is Latveria to the rest of the world, in order to forestall the collapse of humanity:
Spoiler:
To characterize either Magneto or Doom as "evil" in a classical sense, displays a shallow understanding of both the characters and very concepts of "evil" and good.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/21 21:01:08
Yeah, for a guy who claimed using his powers to mind control people was deeply evil and he wouldn't ever do it, from what I recall he actually did it with surprising regularity.
At least Magneto was honest.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Formosa wrote: Magneto is, in my opinion, the pinnacle of a tragic villain, the man is evil objectively but over the years the horrible things done to him and his brutal responses, I wonder if any of us wouldn't have the same reaction with his kind of power, and professor X, well, he is also a villain for completely different reasons, forcing your mind onto others isn't something good people do.
I'll grant you that too, but I assume the whole 'forcing your mind onto others' thing is something from the Rusty Iron age, after I quit reading comics in general.
The Silver and Bronze Age Professor X would not have done so, regardless of whatever retcons have been written about him since.
Its important to note that megnetos extremism is a response. Mags didnt start out going mutantsbare the best and we should rule.
He was on prof xs side when they started out.
Then he saw humanity act like the nazis and he struck back twice as hard. Its not GOOD what he does. But its not fair to paint him as a supremesist either. Hes lashing out at injustice in a way that escalates the conflict but hes STILL lashing out at injustice.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Given that Magneto was sent to the Nazi Death Camps as a child, no he's not a white supremacist. He'e the opposite.
Sigh. I'm not the one who thought he was a white supremacist, I have been reading the X-men since Ms Marvel became Binary. I know Magneto's backstory very well.
Someone else seemed to think that argument was made. I was trying to be helpful.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote: But its not fair to paint him as a supremesist either. Hes lashing out at injustice in a way that escalates the conflict but hes STILL lashing out at injustice.
I dunno man, while I empathize with how he got where he is, trying to murder everyone on the planet without a mutant gene multiple times feels pretty supremacist-y to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/21 20:57:46
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Ouze wrote: Yeah, for a guy who claimed using his powers to mind control people was deeply evil and he wouldn't ever do it, from what I recall he actually did it with surprising regularity.
At least Magneto was honest.
How long had he mindlocked Jean Grey, again? He first did it to her in her childhood
JohnHwangDD wrote: Given that Magneto was sent to the Nazi Death Camps as a child, no he's not a white supremacist. He'e the opposite.
Sigh. I'm not the one who thought he was a white supremacist, I have been reading the X-men since Ms Marvel became Binary. I know Magneto's backstory very well.
Someone else seemed to think that argument was made. I was trying to be helpful.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote: But its not fair to paint him as a supremesist either. Hes lashing out at injustice in a way that escalates the conflict but hes STILL lashing out at injustice.
I dunno man, while I empathize with how he got where he is, trying to murder everyone on the planet without a mutant gene multiple times feels pretty supremacist-y to me.
I was clarifying for those who weren't aware.
Magneto is frequently engaged in the equivalent of World War X against those who would exterminate all mutants, as it is an existential threat, lethal response is justified.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/21 21:05:40
MonkeyBallistic wrote: I tried to read this thread, but seeing manbabies crying about SJW’s makes my eyes bleed.
Anyhoo, I’m really looking forward to Captain Marvel.
I have concerns any time a company or figurehead of a franchise calls out a specific race or gender and tells them they don't matter/ this wasn't made for you/ we don't need your kind.
I have concerns anytime people twist a comment about encouraging more women and minorities into being one about hating white men.
Formosa has all ready broken down her statement and why it was sexist/racist. Something he forgot to mention though was that she followed it up with a "I'm not sexist/racist, but....." comment. It's something that I usually here before a good-ole-boy makes a wonderful comment about inner city youth.
Formosa’s breakdown is opinion not fact. I disagree. That’s my opinion, not fact.
What she was calling for was more diversity in film criticism to better reflect the diversity of the audience. There’s more film critics than ever because there’s more media than ever and most of them are utterly terrible. It’s a rare critic who is actually able to make an objective critique of a movie, divorced from their own preferences. The best critics know this and make a point of acknowledging it in their reviews, but the vast majority does not.
I think that’s a problem. It’s not a big problem. It’s not a problem I lose sleep over, but it is an issue. That’s what Brie Larson was trying to get across, in admittedly a poorly expressed way.
The fact that this got twisted into Brie Larson hates white men says more about some white men than it does about Brie Larson. Again, my option not fact.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: I tried to read this thread, but seeing manbabies crying about SJW’s makes my eyes bleed.
Anyhoo, I’m really looking forward to Captain Marvel.
I have concerns any time a company or figurehead of a franchise calls out a specific race or gender and tells them they don't matter/ this wasn't made for you/ we don't need your kind.
I have concerns anytime people twist a comment about encouraging more women and minorities into being one about hating white men.
Formosa has all ready broken down her statement and why it was sexist/racist. Something he forgot to mention though was that she followed it up with a "I'm not sexist/racist, but....." comment. It's something that I usually here before a good-ole-boy makes a wonderful comment about inner city youth.
Formosa’s breakdown is opinion not fact. I disagree. That’s my opinion, not fact.
What she was calling for was more diversity in film criticism to better reflect the diversity of the audience. There’s more film critics than ever because there’s more media than ever and most of them are utterly terrible. It’s a rare critic who is actually able to make an objective critique of a movie, divorced from their own preferences. The best critics know this and make a point of acknowledging it in their reviews, but the vast majority does not.
I think that’s a problem. It’s not a big problem. It’s not a problem I lose sleep over, but it is an issue. That’s what Brie Larson was trying to get across, in admittedly a poorly expressed way.
The fact that this got twisted into Brie Larson hates white men says more about some white men than it does about Brie Larson. Again, my option not fact.
If it was simply poorly worded, then it was EXTREMLY poorly worded. If a critic is unbiased it shouldn't matter what race, gender, or sexual orientation they are. Saying "white men, this movie wasn't for you so I don't need to hear your opinions about it", at the very least sounds racist.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: I tried to read this thread, but seeing manbabies crying about SJW’s makes my eyes bleed.
Anyhoo, I’m really looking forward to Captain Marvel.
I have concerns any time a company or figurehead of a franchise calls out a specific race or gender and tells them they don't matter/ this wasn't made for you/ we don't need your kind.
I have concerns anytime people twist a comment about encouraging more women and minorities into being one about hating white men.
Formosa has all ready broken down her statement and why it was sexist/racist. Something he forgot to mention though was that she followed it up with a "I'm not sexist/racist, but....." comment. It's something that I usually here before a good-ole-boy makes a wonderful comment about inner city youth.
Formosa’s breakdown is opinion not fact. I disagree. That’s my opinion, not fact.
What she was calling for was more diversity in film criticism to better reflect the diversity of the audience. There’s more film critics than ever because there’s more media than ever and most of them are utterly terrible. It’s a rare critic who is actually able to make an objective critique of a movie, divorced from their own preferences. The best critics know this and make a point of acknowledging it in their reviews, but the vast majority does not.
I think that’s a problem. It’s not a big problem. It’s not a problem I lose sleep over, but it is an issue. That’s what Brie Larson was trying to get across, in admittedly a poorly expressed way.
The fact that this got twisted into Brie Larson hates white men says more about some white men than it does about Brie Larson. Again, my option not fact.
I can see her point, even though it was poorly expressed and has since been twisted.
That's not the problem. The problem that seems to come around is when I say 'I didn't like this movie, it's poorly written', and the response is 'but it stars a woman, YOU MUST BE SEXIST!'
No, no one comes out and says it here.
And yet my posts are often followed by posts talking about sexist, racist manbabies... what am I SUPPOSED to think?
I agree with MonkeyBallistic. I think she was stating a fairly harmless opinion, but worded it in a way that was just terrible. The idea that certain media is "for" certain audiences is not new. For example, I don't believe I could tell the intended audience of The Favorite whether or not they would enjoy the movie. Ditto the Medea films and their audience. There was a thread on Dakka where Manchu described reading a book that wasn't written "for him", and if I recall he did not enjoy it very much. The idea that critics who are outside of a film's intended audience have poor opinions of that film is not contraversial.
You wouldn't want some Marvel fan critiquing your DC movie after all.
Well don't fight the idea that sexist racist man babies cause trouble and people wont talk to you about it. I have seen and been a part of many discussions where people said "i dont like this" and thats been fine.
If what you are talking about is say... Rey, then i believe my contribution was whats the difference between her and luke?
If you dont like it then you dont like it. Cool. Fine. If you think shes an unbelievable mary sue in a franchise of unbelievable mary sues then there are questions to ask and discusions to be had.
No male lead in a marvel movie has caught gak for not smiling and being "wooden" in their teaser trailer. And yet cap marvel...
Im not saying you said those things specifically (i honestly cant remember who said what at this point). Simply that its something thats happenes here.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
LunarSol wrote: No doubt it was a colossal mistake. Apparently the actual call was made by a third stringer looking to show initiative while the guys in charge were unavailable, but its still easily one of the biggest missteps in the MCU.
I don't think I believe this. I mean, I'm not saying you're a liar - not at all - I mean that it just doesn't sound plausible to me. I feel like when you have franchises this large, decisions that big don't get made by third stringers regardless of how ambitious they are.
If anything, I think what you are saying sounds like a trial balloon for backing out and rehiring him, more than the actual facts.
Third stringer probably isn't the right phrase. What I meant to say was more to the effect that it sounds like neither Kevin Feige or Bob Iger were involved in the decision and it was made while both were unavailable. Realistically it was probably someone between them given the direction blame has been deflected. In any case, every version of what happens comes across as a rash decision at a corporate level that only writes in ink.
I think James Gunn is ultimately going to get the GOTG franchise back. If Mel Gibson gets a wholly-unearned redemption tour, I would think the director of an 1.6B franchise with far lesser transgressions will somehow find a way back into the fold.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Lance845 wrote: Well don't fight the idea that sexist racist man babies cause trouble and people wont talk to you about it. I have seen and been a part of many discussions where people said "i dont like this" and thats been fine.
If what you are talking about is say... Rey, then i believe my contribution was whats the difference between her and luke?
If you dont like it then you dont like it. Cool. Fine. If you think shes an unbelievable mary sue in a franchise of unbelievable mary sues then there are questions to ask and discusions to be had.
No male lead in a marvel movie has caught gak for not smiling and being "wooden" in their teaser trailer. And yet cap marvel...
Im not saying you said those things specifically (i honestly cant remember who said what at this point). Simply that its something thats happenes here.
Are you really sure about that
Break it down, why was she told to smile more, because she looked wooden, who else was called wooden in his role....
Oh that's right, Henry cavil, who was criticized for a poor performance based on looking like they hated the role ... Ben Affleck.
Why hasn't a man in a marvel movie had this criticism ...because they didn't earn this criticism, telling her to smile is not sexist in any way shape or form, it's telling her to smile because otherwise she looks miserable, resting bitch face my sister calls it, people want people to smile, it's human nature, so much so that INFANTS develop it before they can even speak.
Ouze wrote: I think James Gunn is ultimately going to get the GOTG franchise back. If Mel Gibson gets a wholly-unearned redemption tour, I would think the director of an 1.6B franchise with far lesser transgressions will somehow find a way back into the fold.
That'd be great, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
Lance845 wrote: Well don't fight the idea that sexist racist man babies cause trouble and people wont talk to you about it. I have seen and been a part of many discussions where people said "i dont like this" and thats been fine.
If what you are talking about is say... Rey, then i believe my contribution was whats the difference between her and luke?
If you dont like it then you dont like it. Cool. Fine. If you think shes an unbelievable mary sue in a franchise of unbelievable mary sues then there are questions to ask and discusions to be had.
No male lead in a marvel movie has caught gak for not smiling and being "wooden" in their teaser trailer. And yet cap marvel...
Two things here: One, the main complaint about Brie Larson was that she wasn't portraying any emotion. She looked like a Terminator in that first trailer, which is a valid criticism. Two, I did hear criticisms about the range of Edward Norton's acting ability when he played the Hulk.
Being "emotionless" isn't something that's in Robert Downy Jr.'s wheelhouse. Every time I look at him he's either smug, smiling, or occasionally gritting his teeth.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/21 22:18:08
Ouze wrote: I think James Gunn is ultimately going to get the GOTG franchise back. If Mel Gibson gets a wholly-unearned redemption tour, I would think the director of an 1.6B franchise with far lesser transgressions will somehow find a way back into the fold.
To be fair, Walt Disney and Mel Gibson dislike the same people.
Ouze wrote: I think James Gunn is ultimately going to get the GOTG franchise back. If Mel Gibson gets a wholly-unearned redemption tour, I would think the director of an 1.6B franchise with far lesser transgressions will somehow find a way back into the fold.
To be fair, Walt Disney and Mel Gibson dislike the same people.
LOL, good call. I hadn't thought of that.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/22 09:10:00
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
I think I am just feeling particularly burnt out on super hero movies, I have no real desire to see this movie. Not only that but I hardly have any desire anymore to see the new Spiderman, or the next Avengers movie. Though I will at the very least see the next Avengers movie in theater because Avengers has always been a "see in theater with friends" sort of movie, and I just want to see that arc end.
Lance845 wrote: You hit me and mine we hit you back twice as hard. You tried to genocide us over and over. My turn.
Lance, you nailed it. I think this is really what Magneto, the Holocaust survivor, is really all about.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I deleted a few political/religious posts that pretty cleanly detached from the context of discussing this movie or comics generally. Try to keep it at least semi-related please.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/22 09:03:44
Automatically Appended Next Post: I deleted a few political/religious posts that pretty cleanly detached from the context of discussing this movie or comics generally. Try to keep it at least semi-related please.
So you kept all the “political” posts that mention the movie or the actress, but deleted the most brilliant and eloquent reply to those posts because it didn’t mention the movie?
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