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Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The bit about D3 always scoring a 3 on 6+ model units is interesting due to multiple D3 rolling attacks, such as the Skorpius' Belleros cannon.
If it targets a squad of 6, it fires 9 shots per those words. Thats unusually good. Unless by "each roll" they meant the entire roll and not specifically the die (which would fall back on 4DX actually not benefiting at all against 6-10model units for...some reason)

Yeah I would've figured d3 weapons would've gotten just two guaranteed shots or something but hey max 3 for just 6 models is nice for the skorpius and I guess the neutron laser.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

Neutron laser i could see not being considered a blast but as of right now i have no idea what theyre considering a blast and what isnt.
It cant be just random shots because that includes flamers and they very heavily hinted already that vehicles are going to love flamers in combat. But if theyre blast...they cant be used lol

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Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

Yeah I expect it's on the total roll, otherwise a weapon with 2d3 is absurdly better than a 1d6 with this wording.

Won't help the Neutronager much, I don't think I've ever shot in a horde with it save for the Stubbers. The Eradication Beam is more interesting though, we'll see how the point costs go.

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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

to be fair, 2D3 shots were already superior to 1D6 anyway.
To the point of i always wished D6 went away and everything was just multiple D3's. Its still random, but its severely less punishing at it.
The amount of times ive rolled 7 on 3D3 vs on 3D6 is ridiculous, the later should be consistently causing more shots yet my luck always made it worse. Theres a joke in my area that if i fire the Skorpius' energy cannon im gonna always get 7-9 shots but when my ork Battlefortress or Stompa fires its 3D6 Deffkannon i always fire less than 7 lol. And its ANNOYINGLY ACCURATE lol.

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 Vineheart01 wrote:
The bit about D3 always scoring a 3 on 6+ model units is interesting due to multiple D3 rolling attacks, such as the Skorpius' Belleros cannon.
If it targets a squad of 6, it fires 9 shots per those words. Thats unusually good. Unless by "each roll" they meant the entire roll and not specifically the die (which would fall back on 4DX actually not benefiting at all against 6-10model units for...some reason)


That's not the posted rule text says. Weirdly, it says you get "at least" 3 shots, whether it's 1d3, 1d6, 2d6, 3d6, 10d4, etc. So it literally has no effect at all on the belleros cannon until you get to 11 models, when it suddenly fires max shots every time.



Note the wording re: 3 attacks, not 3 attacks per dice rolled.
   
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Nebraska, USA

The article and the stream discussion are conflicting. And quite frankly, the stream part makes more sense.

That article blip makes absolutely no sense. Any gun firing more than 2DX of shots gets 0 benefit at 6-10 models for some reason, and then suddenly goes to absolute max shots at 11+ models? Why would that happen?

Either way it works i hope the actual rule written in the book we get is clear. Because that article version is so wordy and badly written it cannot possibly be the final rule.

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Fresh-Faced Inquisitorial Acolyte



Seattle, WA

Minimum of three shots is not 0 benefit for 2dX anything. Snake eyes is a thing. It has little benefit, but not none. Belleros, sure, but 3dX weapons are pretty rare.

 
   
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Nebraska, USA

*more than 2DX, i.e. its minimum was already 3 because it was rolling 3 or more dice
Rarity of the weapon not a factor, they exist and are common enough to run into fairly often.

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

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Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





None of our tanks weapons benefits from the 6-10 blast bracket.

The Neutronager is pretty much unaffected; A neutron Laser was a small blast in 7th edition and you'd be a bigger fool to shoot it at something with 6+ models unless that was 6+ Centurions lol.

Eradication beamer was large blast, blast or single shot depending on distance. So again the weapons we would WANT to benefit from firing into combat cant actually do it.

Meh HPB on Onager can shoot, but those things need to be virtually free to be worth taking on an Onager over an Icarus array at the same points value.

Icarus array is the big stand out. It's shooting at -1 against ground targets anyway, all it's weapons are and were direct hitting and as modifiers are capped at -1 that engagement to hit penalty makes no difference.

Aside from Balistarii and Kastellan so far our tanks/vehicles have been pretty short-changed by 9ths vehicle/blast rulings.

I'm seriously considering running more balistarii and going custom data hoard + servo-focussed auguries.

It only really benefits Balistarii, the Stratoraptor and all those cognis heavy stubbers we have lingering our Duneriders and Disintigrators. But man does having Cawl's re-roll without cawl seem like a good idea.
   
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 Vineheart01 wrote:
The article and the stream discussion are conflicting. And quite frankly, the stream part makes more sense.

That article blip makes absolutely no sense. Any gun firing more than 2DX of shots gets 0 benefit at 6-10 models for some reason, and then suddenly goes to absolute max shots at 11+ models? Why would that happen?

Either way it works i hope the actual rule written in the book we get is clear. Because that article version is so wordy and badly written it cannot possibly be the final rule.


But the article has the actual rule text. Unless you think the article is making up random text and presenting it as the rule when it actually isn't?

Literally every other post on warhammer community that puts rules in those tan boxes presents the actual rule's exact wording. Why wouldn't this also be the exact wording of the rule?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/11 00:49:29


 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





Seems pretty straight forward to me:

Blast weapons always have at least 3 attacks against units with a model size of 6-10.

Blast weapons always have their maximum number of attacks against units with a model size of 11+

The fact that some weapons in their current incarnation don't benefit from that is somewhat irrelevant to the wording of the rule.

The fact that 3D6 benefits the same as 3D3 or that 4D6 or 4D3 don't benefit at all when firing at 6-10 model units but suddenly at 11+ model units becomes some immense clearing tool seems like it works pretty well to me.

It means that against medium-sized units blast weapons are more useful but against units of a sufficiently large size really can be a huge threat to them.

I mean they could always take that 6-10 rule out and stick with just the 11+ one and still achieve the goal of making blast weapons a big threat to large unit sizes.

Something I'm noticing a lot from these rules changes, everything seems to have a significant counter. It's very refreshing for there to be choices that mean something, you cant easily just pick something that's so good it'll never be beat.
   
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Mira Mesa

EDIT: On the stream they clarified that the rule is each D6 counts as having rolled at least 3. This means a D3 rolls at least 3 which results in 2 shots. So, 2D6 is a minimum of 6, 2D3 is a minimum of 4, etc..

Yeah, I'm in the camp that the written text rightly implies a minimum 3 for the entire attack. It's just more likely that the stream misspoke.

As well, thinking back to earlier editions with blast templates, a 10 man squad with good spacing was rarely hit more than once by a small blast template, and a large blast template hit 3 or 4 models. It's fine that most blast weapons get very little benefit against medium sized squads, because in my mind they always have. The minimum 3 damage is only a 14% increase to average results. It's not nothing, but mostly it just increases consistency.

I think the 10 vs 11 breakpoint is a good one. Almost all non-horde units are already limited to 10 man squads. Anything that can exceed 10 is already incentivized to do so as much as possible. The exact breakpoint will rarely come up and make the disparity noticeable.

I'm interested to see if the Destroyer's Plasma Culverin get Blast, since it's essentially a Plasma Cannon which had a small blast template.

Also, an amusing result of the maximum net +/- 1 roll modifier is that the Icarus Array Dunecrawlers shoot normally while in close combat. They're already -1 BS. I don't think that's a useful strategy, but interesting in a pinch.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/06/11 04:31:17


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You guys think the Icarus Array missile will get Blast? Because it's all one gun. How will that work if it does get it?

@DarkHound
I think Plasma Culverin will get it.
   
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Mira Mesa

Apparently the rules they said for blast weapons are "random number of shots, ranged weapon, non-flamer". It sounds like they're reverse engineering the changes they made when they got rid of blast markers. That makes sense, the random number of shots are just supposed to represent explosions having different potentials for damage based on where they land.

To that end, it looks like both the Eradication Beamer and Neutron Laser will get Blast, while Icarus Array and Heavy Phosphor won't. I think that makes Eradication Beamer strictly better than the Heavy Phosphor, but it doesn't make either weapon relevant. The Icarus Array still has better performance against all targets than either.

It turns out we actually don't have many Blast weapons. Just the two guns on the Dunecrawler, the Plasma on the Destroyers, and the Disintegrators. That being said, the Disintegrators come out huge, with both the Disruptor Launcher and Belleros Cannon being Blast weapons. The Disintegrator has to take an extreme price hike, because it's going to be the premier anti-everything. It's got overwhelming anti-infantry firepower against all profiles, and with the Mars Canticle it has the best anti-tank per point in Heavy Support.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/11 06:14:31


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 DarkHound wrote:
EDIT: On the stream they clarified that the rule is each D6 counts as having rolled at least 3. This means a D3 rolls at least 3 which results in 2 shots. So, 2D6 is a minimum of 6, 2D3 is a minimum of 4, etc..


No, they didn't. They stated one thing on the stream, without quoting the specific rule text, then posted something that contradicts it as the actual rule on the site. They definitely did not say on the stream "guys, what's on the site is wrong, sorry, here's how it really works..."

Now it's possible the actual rule they posted on the site is inaccurate, and the non-official summary they stated on the stream is correct. But I don't see why anyone would assume that, rather than the opposite. Why would they post something as the official rule that isn't the official rule? Surely the text is more likely to be right than what some guy said off the cuff on a stream?

   
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When I wrote my original comment, I hadn't yet seen the stream. On the stream they said "if you roll a D6, you can never get less than a 3" (at 6:55 in the broadcast). When they mention a Volcano cannon always getting 9 shots, they're referring to a "big-ish unit" which sounds like he means 11 or more. Stu Black clarifies again at 21:50 "if the unit is 6 more, you always count has having rolled a 3, or better of course if you've rolled better. So 1s and 2s count as 3s. 11 or more you get the maximum number of attacks. It is attacks, it's not hits, you still have to roll to hit. It's not that good!"

Honestly, I'm inclined to believe the post on the community page isn't the rule verbatim. Stu Black definitely did not misspeak. That post lines up with the stream when talking about 1D6 weapons, but that rule is just wonky if it applies RAW to any other variation. The rule "each D6 rolls a minimum of 3" fixes every variation, so I'm inclined to think that's what they actually meant.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/11 06:40:23


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 DarkHound wrote:
When I wrote my original comment, I hadn't yet seen the stream. On the stream they said "if you roll a D6, you can never get less than a 3" (at 6:55 in the broadcast). When they mention a Volcano cannon always getting 9 shots, they're referring to a "big-ish unit" which sounds like he means 11 or more. Stu Black clarifies again at 21:50 "if the unit is 6 more, you always count has having rolled a 3, or better of course if you've rolled better. So 1s and 2s count as 3s. 11 or more you get the maximum number of attacks. It is attacks, it's not hits, you still have to roll to hit. It's not that good!"

Honestly, I'm inclined to believe the post on the community page isn't the rule verbatim. Stu Black definitely did not misspeak. That post lines up with the stream when talking about 1D6 weapons, but that rule is just wonky if it applies RAW to any other variation. The rule "each D6 rolls a minimum of 3" fixes every variation, so I'm inclined to think that's what they actually meant.


That does make that new Thin Their Ranks strategm redundant though. Unless Helverin Autocannons arent Blast. Helverins fire 4D3, that strategy gives them all 12 of their shots on units 6+ which they would get anyway if they were Blast.
   
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Octovol wrote:
 DarkHound wrote:
When I wrote my original comment, I hadn't yet seen the stream. On the stream they said "if you roll a D6, you can never get less than a 3" (at 6:55 in the broadcast). When they mention a Volcano cannon always getting 9 shots, they're referring to a "big-ish unit" which sounds like he means 11 or more. Stu Black clarifies again at 21:50 "if the unit is 6 more, you always count has having rolled a 3, or better of course if you've rolled better. So 1s and 2s count as 3s. 11 or more you get the maximum number of attacks. It is attacks, it's not hits, you still have to roll to hit. It's not that good!"

Honestly, I'm inclined to believe the post on the community page isn't the rule verbatim. Stu Black definitely did not misspeak. That post lines up with the stream when talking about 1D6 weapons, but that rule is just wonky if it applies RAW to any other variation. The rule "each D6 rolls a minimum of 3" fixes every variation, so I'm inclined to think that's what they actually meant.


That does make that new Thin Their Ranks strategm redundant though. Unless Helverin Autocannons arent Blast. Helverins fire 4D3, that strategy gives them all 12 of their shots on units 6+ which they would get anyway if they were Blast.

It still works a treat on vehicles though (or just stuff like small units of aggressors)
   
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Nebraska, USA

"Nonflamer" hopefully is looking at autohits because theres some XDX weapons that autohit that arent technically a flamer but would be disgusting with this blast rule

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So with those cover rules that just dropped today, having the new Engine War strat for 1CP for a Skorpius to ignore cover (if firing all weapons at the same target), combine with the blast rules...

Also Shroudpsalm & the new cover rules...?

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 The Forgemaster wrote:
So with those cover rules that just dropped today, having the new Engine War strat for 1CP for a Skorpius to ignore cover (if firing all weapons at the same target), combine with the blast rules...

Also Shroudpsalm & the new cover rules...?


Yeah shroudpsalm will need to have say which version of cover benefit its providing since some cover can just block line of sight for stuff like a knight but not a infantry model shooting at a knight.

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So with the new terrain rules, i think we can all agree that building the archaopter with no flying stand isnt modeling for advantage!

   
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The only part I find weird is that models that are on or within an obscuring terrain feature can be seen and targeted normally. But I guess it makes sense because they can shoot back.
   
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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
So with the new terrain rules, i think we can all agree that building the archaopter with no flying stand isnt modeling for advantage!



Well, it still gives you an advantage for any terrain that isn't marked with the obscuring trait. But yes, it seems to take away most of the issue with it.

Instead, now you will get to enjoy having your flyer always able to be shot at through obscuring terrain, while it is not allowed to shoot back.

Non-reciprocal LOS, here we come! This definitely won't turn out to be a disaster...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Suzuteo wrote:
The only part I find weird is that models that are on or within an obscuring terrain feature can be seen and targeted normally. But I guess it makes sense because they can shoot back.


This is a massive change from ITC, and a huge nerf for melee infantry and a huge buff for shooting vis a vis the current ITC rule. No more hanging out in a ruin and threatening the middle of the board while being out of LOS; now you gotta be fully behind the ruin, so your threat range is greatly reduced.

Unless everyone just ignores the "inside" bit by saying that the dimensions of a ruin don't include any space inside the ruin. I.e. that L-shape ruin is really just an L-shaped wall, and if you're within the L but not on top of it, you're not "inside" it but "behind" it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/11 20:35:48


 
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
 Suzuteo wrote:
The only part I find weird is that models that are on or within an obscuring terrain feature can be seen and targeted normally. But I guess it makes sense because they can shoot back.


This is a massive change from ITC, and a huge nerf for melee infantry and a huge buff for shooting vis a vis the current ITC rule. No more hanging out in a ruin and threatening the middle of the board while being out of LOS; now you gotta be fully behind the ruin, so your threat range is greatly reduced.

Unless everyone just ignores the "inside" bit by saying that the dimensions of a ruin don't include any space inside the ruin. I.e. that L-shape ruin is really just an L-shaped wall, and if you're within the L but not on top of it, you're not "inside" it but "behind" it.

My guess is that this refers to scalable ruins? As in, if one of your models can climb onto the ruin, you can see them, and they can see you. If you want to stay obscured, just stay off the terrain feature itself.

Also solves the magic box problem, since you can shoot out of the windows, and they can shoot in.
   
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That would make more sense, but it doesn't seem to be what they said. They didn't say if you're "on" the terrain, they said if you're "inside" the terrain.

So the rule seems to be that you step into a ruin, and you can be shot. You step out of the ruin, you can't be shot any more (assuming it has obscuring). Which is pretty much the definition of silly.
   
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They say "on or within." I am going to assume that means you have scaled the terrain or are physically touching the terrain in some way, you can shoot through the windows, and they can shoot into them as well.
   
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I hope your interpretation is correct, because otherwise, melee really is going the way of the dinosaurs!
   
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Glasgow

This is a buff for melee on a right board with a lot of terrain a huge portion of the board can be obscured from backfield units. through multiple obscuring terrains. being in terrain may offer better protection e.g. heavy cover your just using the area behind the ruin not in the ruin. Just bring a battle sanctum with you you can obscure half your deployment zone.
   
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Using the area behind the ruin, not the ruin, means giving up significant threat range; it also means giving up your maneuverability advantage to some extent, because the other good thing about ruins is that as infantry you can move through them, but other stuff can't. It's a big nerf compared to the current ITC rules for melee infantry, if it turns out to really work like it sounds, not like Suzuteo is theorizing. If it didn't make any difference, people would already use the areas behind ruins, but they don't. They use the ruin, because it gets them precious inches.

I do suspect that either way ITC will rule that those big L-shaped things don't have any footprint, so standing on the far side of the wall is not "within" the L but "behind" it. Which will cure most of the issues.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/12 01:32:14


 
   
 
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