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NinthMusketeer wrote: I would actually be cross with my government if they did not mandate masks--that sort of public-health regulation is exactly what I voted them into office for. If they aren't going to do that, to me they are not doing their jobs. And I AM cross with the White House for its worse-than-inaction for so long on the matter. The situation in the US is undoubtedly far worse than it needed to be, and there are a whole lot of people dead because of it. Hopefully it will be taken as a wake up call and in the future the US will be better prepared to deal with a pandemic.
Well if you want to talk about worse than it needed to be.
https://freopp.org/the-covid-19-nursing-home-crisis-by-the-numbers-3a47433c3f70 This is where you should start. Please don't do something stupid like criticize the source ether. Read the article and if there is something in there you don't like - dispute it with your own source.
Serious question - were you cross with the white house when they imposed a travel ban from Asian countries? I'm more cross they didn't do it sooner. The media around here though criticized the white house for being "racist" by doing the most common sense thing you can do in a pandemic...close your boarders. Kind of like every country in that region did because...it's common sense. We actually live in a country here in the states where most people are so short sited dishonest - that something like that can be ignored. Imagine we lived in a world where the white house could have closed the boarders without fear of what negative press they would get from a media which is literally intent on destroying your reputation with an obviously untrue accusation that half the population will just run with because they are sheepish and pathetic. A simple week or 2 sooner could have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. The blame falls on both sides equally there IMO.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/28 20:53:00
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BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Pacific wrote: What I don't get ... even if I thought that masks fulfilled no purpose (I don't think that's the case, but just for the sake of argument) I would understand that not wearing one when indoors would cause consternation to other people.
So, I would wear it just out of sense of common courtesy.
I would view it in the same way as not chatting or looking at my phone in a cinema, not taking photos in a tourist hot-spot cathedral because a sign asked me not to, being polite to the call centre guy who is calling me to sell car insurance even though I don't need it.
There are things we do just out of having manners, being a gentleman or whatever you call it, that allow societies of people to function without it descending into loss of civility.
For me, it's not just an ignorance around information of the use of masks, it's respect for other people (especially in this case - as they could actually save someone else's life) and I think not doing it says a lot about you as a person.
So, because some people are scared, I too must be forced to act like I am also scared, to make them feel better. Got it.
You get used to wearing it. I have no issue wearing it. I am more concerned about mental health. Distancing / fearing of contact /' covering of faces. This is all bound to cause an already stressed population to deteriorate in mental health. It is very hard to collect data on this too but it can not be ignored.
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tneva82 wrote: Well for QAR it's just that only thing in the world matters is what is good for HIM. He's the kind that if he gains even little he would sacrifice millions of lives.
He doesn't want to take even slight inconvenience as it's inconveniencing HIM.
That is an insane accusation. A person wanting to walk freely in public without covering their face is not a selfish act - it is in fact quite normal and has been normal the entirety of human history - unless it was part of some kind of religious requirement (I bet you disagree with that one too). What good do you think it does to shame a person in this way anyways?
Welcome to the mind of tneva. It's great. His posts always warm my soul a little. I'm surprised he hasn't yet learned that his attacks on my character change absolutely nothing, but with a head full of hysteria and malice, and seemingly little to no logic or critical thinking skills, I guess I probably shouldn't be. And that's even after I complimented his paintings. Cest la vie.
Edit: oh my, I only just read that 'millions of lives' bit. I mean..wow. the worldwide Corona death toll is only just over half a million, after 5 months... And I have probably had zero contact with or affect on the virus during that time... But m not wanting to be forced to wear a mask means I'm sacrificing millions. Hysterical.
The social impact is something that concerns me also, but I rarely if ever mention it because I know the response would be an even bigger meltdown than usual. I mean, who cares about creating a social narrative that absolutely everyone is a lethal, walking biohazard who must be avoided at all costs, when masks might give a potential, tiny impact on the spread of a virus that's basically already dying out on its own...
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2020/07/28 21:33:20
I think I've seen a total of six people wearing masks here in Sweden the entire time this pandemic has been going on. I wouldn't even know where to get a mask here to be honest. If it's a law introduced by the government, then sure, wear a mask. I'd love to wear a full-face mask so I can sleep for real during work meetings, one of which I have coming up this morning. Lord give me strength...
If you are wearing a mask that's at risk of choking you randomly as you go about your day, you are doing BDSM wrong and should probably stop and spend some time educating yourself on safe ways to practice masochism.
*Shrug* I'm not into any of that fetish stuff. I bought it to mock the new law.
Ah, so you are, to make a statement, insulting people's kinks because you find them weird. Mmmm, not unexpected from someone who doesn't want to wear a mask, but disappointing and gross.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Yeah, and whilst not being familiar with us numbers, I'd be doubting the validity of a claim like that.
I'm not disputing that there's negative reactions in some people. That's going to be the case with any new disease. As I said, it's not good and those who are suffering have my sympathy, but I still don't think it warrants this huge overreaction that we insist on continuing to flog. It's a sunk cost at this point. And the government are now trapped.
Consider that in the UK, we're in the third consecutive week of below average deaths for the year. This suggests that those who would normally have died at this point probably had it brought forward by a few weeks or couple of months by the virus.
"The disease is not that bad anyways"
In a few days you'll be going "And fauci invented it to spread the makr of the beast anyways"
Easy E wrote: This same old argument again. I guess the oldies are the goodies.
QAR- How do you feel about No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service signs at stores? Are they a violation of your freedoms or some sort of indoctrination to obedience?
And I see you've dragged out that old tired counterargument. But no.
Stores as private enterprises, can implement whatever policies they like. I, am objecting to the GOVERNMENT mandating what I must do.
LoL, the GOVT tells you what to do all the time. cant urinate or defecate in public places, cant go around naked, cant drive without aa license, can t do X, cant do Y.
Its a poor excuse and your know it.
Yeah I think you are missing the point here. These are things decent people do because of societal norms. The government didn't make these rules - society did - the people did. There probably was 0 opposition to laws about needed to be clothed in public. The government is implementing these procedures at will is the issue (there was no vote on the issue) - especially if it violates your rights like in the case of forcing people to not leave their houses ect. There is a lot of opposition on that.
Any 1st year polysci or history student can tell you the difference between society and government is not a vast gulf.
And your rights are not what you think they are, and threats to them are also not what you think they are. By refusing a mask you infringe on the right to life of everyone you come in contact with.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Yeah, and whilst not being familiar with us numbers, I'd be doubting the validity of a claim like that.
I'm not disputing that there's negative reactions in some people. That's going to be the case with any new disease. As I said, it's not good and those who are suffering have my sympathy, but I still don't think it warrants this huge overreaction that we insist on continuing to flog. It's a sunk cost at this point. And the government are now trapped.
Consider that in the UK, we're in the third consecutive week of below average deaths for the year. This suggests that those who would normally have died at this point probably had it brought forward by a few weeks or couple of months by the virus.
vice versa in switzerland covid has beaten the general flue within 1 month in deadlyness.
And considering that due to mers and sars we can gather that about a 3rd of the survivors will carry away permanent lungdamage, and that in china a study found 77% of people suffering from such grey patches, i rekon that we will have a lot more people suffering from longterm effects this time around .
In the same article...
"it's estimated as few as 5% and as many as 80% of Covid-19-positive patients are asymptomatic or have mild cases of the illness that take days or weeks for symptoms to emerge—and many have no symptoms after two weeks,"
Wow...that is quite a range for the estimated asymptomatic cases.
You may as well shout "FAKE NEWS" so we all get where you're really coming from.
This is absolutely a time to argue absolutes. Giving ground to the anti science anti safety folks is getting people stone dead killed. And in a much shorter term than their climate change denialism which is a long term problem.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Well that is another page of wasted discussion. Seriously guys, QAR is not arguing in good faith, ignore and move on to members who want to talk with you and not at you. The logic and science has been explained repeatedly, QAR refuses it for reasons we all know are political. That behavior is what led to politics being banned and I would really hate to see this thread go the same way for the same reason.
We know he isn't, but letting the liar stand up and lie without challenge just reinforces his lies.
I mean, realistically, he should just be ejected from the thread.
Just DIY. IIRC, The Czech Republic had something of a mask shortage, so were encouraged to make their own cloth masks. On another forum, a nurse said she prefers to make her own cloth masks, because they're better than most other masks (aside from N95, I assume).
"Minus any mask at all, unobstructed "coughs" generated droplets that traveled up to 12 feet over 50 seconds -- twice the 6-foot social distancing guideline
BTW, Here's an article on the latest about Sweden's softer approach to lockdowns and masks. Seems right to you?
“Our study shows that individually driven infection control measures can have a substantial effect on national outcomes, and we see Sweden as a good example of this case. Higher levels of individual action would further suppress the infection, while a complete lack of individual action would likely have led to runaway infection, which fortunately hasn’t happened.”
I'm not suggesting by any means this is a validated, scientific study, but it stands to reason, if you have a mask on, and you cough/sneeze then your phlegm is not contaminating the vicinity around you.
Also, fairly decent way to make the point
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This is absolutely a time to argue absolutes. Giving ground to the anti science anti safety folks is getting people stone dead killed. And in a much shorter term than their climate change denialism which is a long term problem.
You argue in abosultes in an environment that is much lower backed factually then most are, with a pressing urgency, and instead of accepting this , you two decided that there's only black and white, with you or against you.
I'm not suggesting by any means this is a validated, scientific study, but it stands to reason, if you have a mask on, and you cough/sneeze then your phlegm is not contaminating the vicinity around you.
Also, fairly decent way to make the point
That relies upon mask quality and the actual capability of people using them.
Something i have sofar only seen 50/50 happening sadly...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/29 07:50:16
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
So if people can't do it completely right, might as well not do it at all eh? The experts who know what they are talking about say mask wearing is a good idea, but a bit of Google work can match their doctorates! /s
Pacific wrote: What I don't get ... even if I thought that masks fulfilled no purpose (I don't think that's the case, but just for the sake of argument) I would understand that not wearing one when indoors would cause consternation to other people.
So, I would wear it just out of sense of common courtesy.
I would view it in the same way as not chatting or looking at my phone in a cinema, not taking photos in a tourist hot-spot cathedral because a sign asked me not to, being polite to the call centre guy who is calling me to sell car insurance even though I don't need it.
There are things we do just out of having manners, being a gentleman or whatever you call it, that allow societies of people to function without it descending into loss of civility.
For me, it's not just an ignorance around information of the use of masks, it's respect for other people (especially in this case - as they could actually save someone else's life) and I think not doing it says a lot about you as a person.
The problem is that a lot of people don't use them correctly or even where they do they don't act in a responsible way. Being pushed past very closely by those wearing masks etc. The risk is that masks and face coverings make people think they are immune and act inappropriately (the UK promotes this position by allowing closer contact with people) and it is madness. The benefit from face coverings come from less particles being transmitted directly in front of that person by 90%. That is 10% of particles (which is still a lot leaking out) and yet we don't know what viral load is needed to be infected. In addition they generate significant jets to the side and rear. See this research:- https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2005/2005.10720.pdf for example in the conclusion:-
"Conversely, surgical and hand-made masks, and face shields, generate significant leakage jets that have the potential to disperse virus-laden fluid particles by several metres. The different nature of the masks and shields makes the direction of these jets difficult to be predicted, but the directionality of these jets should be a main design consideration for these covers. They all showed an intense backward jet for heavy breathing and coughing conditions. It is important to be aware of this jet, to avoid a false sense of security that may arise when standing to the side of, or behind, a person wearing a surgical, or handmade mask, or shield. For example, if some wearers of surgical masks turn their face to the side when they cough, there is a risk that this side or backward jet is directed closer to a person standing in front of the wearer".
There is even more scary stuff that these may then hit thermal plumes from the body and then lifted back to face height etc. As such reducing social distancing on the basis that masks are the answer is a recipe for the virus to spread even though those masks are being worn because of the psychology of feeling safe. That's not an argument against them but more an argument that they aren't some magic safety net that they are advertised as. Yes there is some anecdotal evidence (e.g. the Prague articles above) but it is difficult to attribute the impact from one such instance and risks misidentifying "cause and effect" (for example the weather might have changed to very hot and dry etc etc). That is why large scale statistical samples need to be taken. Without these then it is easy to point to such an event as the 'cure' but without recognising other factors and then we all stand around wondering why cases are suddenly escalating again as they are doing again in most European countries including the UK (at differing rates). To be honest I'd prefer someone to not wear a mask and stay at least 2m away than have some push past with a mask on (and hence why I recommend avoiding shops and areas where people congregate as much as possible).
I don't disagree with anything that you have written above and I have read articles covering similar things, but I do think there is a far greater danger of the waters being muddied with these kinds of statements when they are made publicly, and for the sake of keeping the public instruction as straightforward as possible (something which I think has been a failure, at least as far as the UK is concerned) you can cut away the chaff and say "masks = good". Don't give people any excuse to say "well I've read in so-and-so they don't really do much good anyway", when in the vast majority of cases the evidence is to the contrary.
In my view, people that don't bother to social distance and lean over you at the supermarket, are going to do this with or without a mask. Those who are cautious and mindful of the dangers will respect social distancing rules, go out at times when they are less likely to bump into other people, not go to high-risk places (pubs etc.) Ideally, if you must be indoors (and people should again really be restricting this to 'essential only' - the gov being torn on this as it conflicts with the economic impetus of get out and spend money) then social distancing + mask + gloves + mindfulness of hygiene/hand-washing should be the advised best practice.
I don't think wearing a mask is the be-all and end-all but the vast majority of evidence is that, when combined with other measures, it can help reduce probability of transmission to others. I agree what mustn't happen is the public statement to read "where a mask and you'll be fine" but in my mind a lot of damage has been caused by official guidelines sitting on the fence for far too long, at least in the west, whereas areas of asia have been unequivocal (I know that their societal situations will have helped in this regard) and you have to think that is in part responsible for their drastically lower casualty rates. So I'm glad, for the sake of colleagues of mine that work in retail, at least an attempt has been made by the UK gov to enforce mask wearing but it now has some way to go to address the damage that was caused by months of equivocation and confusing messaging around the use of masks.
NinthMusketeer wrote: So if people can't do it completely right, might as well not do it at all eh? The experts who know what they are talking about say mask wearing is a good idea, but a bit of Google work can match their doctorates! /s
Have i stated such?
No, quite to the contrary, however, the rather lackluster use of them for those that use it wrong is obviously wasted...
I 'd prefer mandatory masks then the track and tracing app.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I’m confused, can somebody clear something up for me? Is it Alien DNA or demons that cause coronavirus? Or do they cure it? What’s the latest statement on that?/s
NinthMusketeer wrote: So if people can't do it completely right, might as well not do it at all eh? The experts who know what they are talking about say mask wearing is a good idea, but a bit of Google work can match their doctorates! /s
Have i stated such?
No, quite to the contrary, however, the rather lackluster use of them for those that use it wrong is obviously wasted...
I 'd prefer mandatory masks then the track and tracing app.
I owe you an apology. I got so used to the QAR's of this thread that I automatically read your statement as more unreasonable than it was. I am sorry.
Ah, so you are, to make a statement, insulting people's kinks because you find them weird. Mmmm, not unexpected from someone who doesn't want to wear a mask, but disappointing and gross.
"The disease is not that bad anyways"
In a few days you'll be going "And fauci invented it to spread the makr of the beast anyways"
And your rights are not what you think they are, and threats to them are also not what you think they are. By refusing a mask you infringe on the right to life of everyone you come in contact with.
This is absolutely a time to argue absolutes. Giving ground to the anti science anti safety folks is getting people stone dead killed. And in a much shorter term than their climate change denialism which is a long term problem.
We know he isn't, but letting the liar stand up and lie without challenge just reinforces his lies.
I mean, realistically, he should just be ejected from the thread.
Well, this post is so full of bs and logical fallacies that I should in all good faith just ignore it, but I'm going to engage anyway.
You're assuming I think they are weird. Based on nothing. You know nothing about me or my feelings. Some advice, never argue on a personal level. Keep it in the abstract. It's the only way to avoid getting bogged down in emotion.
The disease isn't that bad. >99% recovery rate. There's really not much else to it.
Asserts that I will claim it is made up..yeah, no again. It would be logically inconsistent for me to claim the disease does not exist, while simultaneously claiming the things I do about the virus. That's week 1, day 1 logic there my friend.
Sigh. Not wearing a mask does not infringe on anyone's rights. This point is so ridiculous it's actually hysterical.
I'm not anti science. All my opinions are based on the figures I see and read every day. False assumptions again, with a little guilt by association and well poisoning through the use of irrelevant statements about climate change thrown in for good measure.
'ejected from the thread' that's literally all you folks have isn't it. The guy doesn't agree with my dogma so let's insult him and ask for his removal. Honestly, it's pathetic.
The reason I haven't been removed, (or even had any warnings)is because I've broken no rules, I debate in good faith, and don't insult people unprovoked.
Here endeth the lesson.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/07/29 16:17:25
It looks like daily stats in the UK have plateaued with a very slight upturn.
Interesting comments from Nicola Sturgeon today about complete elimination of the virus in Scotland, rather than accepting a low ongoing level of transmission (which seems to be Westminster's view?). The problem is that while that's a noble aim, not sure how it will be possible to achieve without updating Hadrian's Wall..
Future War Cultist wrote: I’m confused, can somebody clear something up for me? Is it Alien DNA or demons that cause coronavirus? Or do they cure it? What’s the latest statement on that?/s
The one about Fauci developing the virus and transporting it to China is an absolute cracker. The question is then where the 5G masts come into it..
That article is spot on. This is not an influenza. this is why I don't believe there will be another 'second wave' or even any large death spikes like our initial one. I believe it will continue to Peter out, and become endemic in humanity. (See human coronavirus oc43 and its potential cause of the 1890 'russian flu' pandemic)
Future War Cultist wrote: I don’t know why anyone even bothers studying for a doctorate anymore anyway. It’s all on Google.
A key factor in our race to idiocracy. Why trust anyone with real knowledge to speak truth when you can find the answer you like best somewhere on the internet?
QAR what about the USA patten. They locked down, ended early and now have a second spike worse than the first. What you describe would only happen with either a slow spreading virus or with a majorityv of the population exposed, ergo herd immunity.
With a fast spreading virus it csn most certainly creat a secondary spike and worse. Especially as time goes on into winter and people want to spend more time indoors and food and other establishs want to have more normal customer numbers
Future War Cultist wrote: I don’t know why anyone even bothers studying for a doctorate anymore anyway. It’s all on Google.
Why trust anyone with real knowledge to speak truth when you can find the answer you like best somewhere on the internet?
As someone whose witnessed my spouse and best friend both getting doctorates in technical disciplines, these people do not think like I do . We need smart people to figure stuff out the fist time around, before it gets disseminated to the rest of us
(I know you're probably kidding / being sarcastic, but still!)
Not Online!!! wrote:I will ignore the rather condesecending tone and chalk up the rather instantanious skip from General scepticism of government to instantly
putting people into the conspiracysphere on cultural difference.
News Flash: there are countries with cultures that baseline feel that Central power of government is inherently dangerous due to accumulation of power, REGARDLESS what the action of the Central government is. These put the onus into the capability of their citizens to Act themselves and the lower regional Levels.
The only question then is the question of legitimate implementation respectively if the Central authorithy has a right to Act at that instance and that entirely depends how entrenched that specific culture is and how the decision process worked and therefore was legitimate enough in it's execution. And nothing, absolutely nothing with conspiracy nutjobery.
I know that different cultures have different levels of comfort when it comes government authority but one has to be cognisant of what the government is actually asking for (masks). I'd think some degree of proportionality should considered when it comes to one's skepticism instead of absolute scepticism of everything. If one literally has a knee jerk reaction about every government action without evaluating its worth (the "REGARDLESS what the action of the Central government is" bit) then it does feel on the conspiratorial side of the spectrum to me.
Ohh boi, so therefore we swiss are all conspirational nutjobs […]
There's nothing conspirational the scepticism torwards central authorithy if it takes actions bypassing the process of legitimisation over here, as it would do would the central government declare mandatory mask duty overall.
I never said that, I went from your statement (the bolded part): […]there are countries with cultures that baseline feel that Central power of government is inherently dangerous due to accumulation of power, REGARDLESS what the action of the Central government is
That reads like you could have voted for somebody, given them certain governmental powers (on a federal level), and would immediately contest all of their actions. Kinda what the Republicans did under Obama just even more extreme, not what you wrote in the rest of the post (essentially about voting, power, and responsibilities being close to the people with fewer responsibilities on the federal level, which is also in the spoilered part) or extreme right wing libertarian ideas about government. And that type of stuff I would very much put in the nutjob category.
Overread wrote: QAR what about the USA patten. They locked down, ended early and now have a second spike worse than the first. What you describe would only happen with either a slow spreading virus or with a majorityv of the population exposed, ergo herd immunity.
With a fast spreading virus it csn most certainly creat a secondary spike and worse. Especially as time goes on into winter and people want to spend more time indoors and food and other establishs want to have more normal customer numbers
why bring up the US, when israel is the literal case study par excellence, infact even acting quite well in the initial phase only to botch it with the reopening?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Overread wrote: QAR what about the USA patten. They locked down, ended early and now have a second spike worse than the first. What you describe would only happen with either a slow spreading virus or with a majorityv of the population exposed, ergo herd immunity.
With a fast spreading virus it csn most certainly creat a secondary spike and worse. Especially as time goes on into winter and people want to spend more time indoors and food and other establishs want to have more normal customer numbers
Maybe. You might be right. I've never spoke in certainties in this regard. That's just what I think will happen based on the info I have.
I haven't really paid much attention to the us case/death rate for the last few months. Only the UK. That's what I base my views on. We started easing our own lockdown months ago, yet we've had no discernible countrywide 'spike'. I just don't think it's coming. I think the virus will rip through the vulnerable regardless of what we do. Those countries that had lower spikes, will probably have more deaths as lockdowns are eased, and it catches up. This is why I believe it unwise to base policies on the state of other countries.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/29 20:19:54
Not Online!!! wrote:I will ignore the rather condesecending tone and chalk up the rather instantanious skip from General scepticism of government to instantly
putting people into the conspiracysphere on cultural difference.
News Flash: there are countries with cultures that baseline feel that Central power of government is inherently dangerous due to accumulation of power, REGARDLESS what the action of the Central government is. These put the onus into the capability of their citizens to Act themselves and the lower regional Levels.
The only question then is the question of legitimate implementation respectively if the Central authorithy has a right to Act at that instance and that entirely depends how entrenched that specific culture is and how the decision process worked and therefore was legitimate enough in it's execution. And nothing, absolutely nothing with conspiracy nutjobery.
I know that different cultures have different levels of comfort when it comes government authority but one has to be cognisant of what the government is actually asking for (masks). I'd think some degree of proportionality should considered when it comes to one's skepticism instead of absolute scepticism of everything. If one literally has a knee jerk reaction about every government action without evaluating its worth (the "REGARDLESS what the action of the Central government is" bit) then it does feel on the conspiratorial side of the spectrum to me.
Ohh boi, so therefore we swiss are all conspirational nutjobs […]
There's nothing conspirational the scepticism torwards central authorithy if it takes actions bypassing the process of legitimisation over here, as it would do would the central government declare mandatory mask duty overall.
I never said that, I went from your statement (the bolded part): […]there are countries with cultures that baseline feel that Central power of government is inherently dangerous due to accumulation of power, REGARDLESS what the action of the Central government is
That reads like you could have voted for somebody, given them certain governmental powers (on a federal level), and would immediately contest all of their actions. Kinda what the Republicans did under Obama just even more extreme, not what you wrote in the rest of the post (essentially about voting, power, and responsibilities being close to the people with fewer responsibilities on the federal level, which is also in the spoilered part) or extreme right wing libertarian ideas about government. And that type of stuff I would very much put in the nutjob category.
Lol, unlike you over the rhine you forget one crucial part, HALF-DIRECT- DEMOCRATIC- SYSTEM, it is expected of us , to not just vote in the odd representative but to act and VOTE on our own on any policy which may or may not be contrary to what an elected offical state wishes. Also contrary to you, we actually have more parties in my little part of switzerland then you have over all your country parties aleigning with a much broader political spectrum indeed, which govern in what is called a Konkordanz system, which is also something that makes the controll of the people and legitimisation process MORE relevant, through votes, which you could've looked up instead of throwing me in a bin with Libertarian americans and declare me a nutjob.
But that would've required action and actual understanding of a point made, which would've required actual research. But then again i expected no less.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Matt Swain wrote: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/doctor-retweeted-by-trump-has-warned-of-alien-dna-sex-with-demons/ar-BB17iaN4
Will someone please just headshot me? Preferably with a heavy bolter if not a lascannon.
FFS
Spoiler:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Overread wrote: QAR what about the USA patten. They locked down, ended early and now have a second spike worse than the first. What you describe would only happen with either a slow spreading virus or with a majorityv of the population exposed, ergo herd immunity.
With a fast spreading virus it csn most certainly creat a secondary spike and worse. Especially as time goes on into winter and people want to spend more time indoors and food and other establishs want to have more normal customer numbers
why bring up the US, when israel is the literal case study par excellence, infact even acting quite well in the initial phase only to botch it with the reopening?
One could suggest that a state could react TOO well. In the sense that they are just delaying the inevitable. 'squashing the sombrero' so much that the bulge pops out at the opposite end.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/29 20:25:17
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
