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Getting serious for a moment... let's look back at when Chaos changed: Dark Vengeance.
We finally got Cultists, but we also got Maulerfiends / Forgefiends / Hellbrutes / Heldrakes. The empahsis on Daemon Engines was a change from the traditional, more chaotic vision of CSM Legions. We also got new Raptors, which were significantly less Chaotic than the previous edition.
The releases we've seen since then are Lord Dischordant (Daemon Engine), Venomcrawlers (Daemon Engine), CSMs / Havocs (model updates), and new HQs / Elites (Master of Possession, Greater Possessed, Master of Executions). Then they split off Death Guard and Thousand Sons into their own books.
The focus on Daemon Engines and HQs has been less satisfying, it changed the way the armies played to the point where cult troops, Chaos armor, summoned Daemons, and basic CSMs don't play a prominent role in most lists. In 6th, Heldrakes and Cultist blobs got a lot of work done in my armies. In 8th, it was mostly lascannon infantry heavily buffed by HQs and auras. While Daemon Princes still have a place in most lists, that's about as good as it gets - completely warped out armies don't seem to have a place anymore. It all seems very mechanized now.
Here's hoping the new Codex does something about that. Back in the day, seemed like all anyone really wanted was Cult Terminators and changes to the FOC slots so elites weren't a tax on the rest of your army. We're a long way off from that.
I think for me, the disappointment with the Daemons engines is the current relative lack of variety.
Deathguard show genuine hope there, with some smaller ones (not sure if they’re Dreadnought comparable though?).
Thousand Sons were a minor letdown in that regard, as they could’ve done Tzeentchian Daemon Engines. I’m not unhappy with what they did get models wise, just Daemon Engines would’ve been super cool.
I can only hope that with Chaos now in ascendency, we’ll see them emptying the armouries, and more Daemon Engines rocking up in the game.
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Would still have liked something akin to mini-Silver Towers, which could be fielded in pairs, with a LoS blocking straight line between them, ala Old Epic.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I think for me, the disappointment with the Daemons engines is the current relative lack of variety.
Deathguard show genuine hope there, with some smaller ones (not sure if they’re Dreadnought comparable though?).
Thousand Sons were a minor letdown in that regard, as they could’ve done Tzeentchian Daemon Engines. I’m not unhappy with what they did get models wise, just Daemon Engines would’ve been super cool.
I can only hope that with Chaos now in ascendency, we’ll see them emptying the armouries, and more Daemon Engines rocking up in the game.
A greater variety of daemon engine types would be good. But CSM shouldn't be penalized for taking non-daemon engine vehicles. I don't have anything against daemon engines, but we shouldn't be strong-armed into using them.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Would still have liked something akin to mini-Silver Towers, which could be fielded in pairs, with a LoS blocking straight line between them, ala Old Epic.
Oh I like that idea.
That should have been the 1KSons terrain kit - a pair of floating mini-Silver Towers. Give them some interaction with psychic powers (ie. can measure range of the power from the tower is the Psyker is within X" distance), and a small psychic attack, and they float around!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I think for me, the disappointment with the Daemons engines is the current relative lack of variety.
Deathguard show genuine hope there, with some smaller ones (not sure if they’re Dreadnought comparable though?).
Thousand Sons were a minor letdown in that regard, as they could’ve done Tzeentchian Daemon Engines. I’m not unhappy with what they did get models wise, just Daemon Engines would’ve been super cool.
I can only hope that with Chaos now in ascendency, we’ll see them emptying the armouries, and more Daemon Engines rocking up in the game.
A greater variety of daemon engine types would be good. But CSM shouldn't be penalized for taking non-daemon engine vehicles. I don't have anything against daemon engines, but we shouldn't be strong-armed into using them.
They haven't removed any of their traditional vehicles, they just need rebalancing. You can build a csm list without any daemon units fairly easily.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I think for me, the disappointment with the Daemons engines is the current relative lack of variety.
Deathguard show genuine hope there, with some smaller ones (not sure if they’re Dreadnought comparable though?).
Thousand Sons were a minor letdown in that regard, as they could’ve done Tzeentchian Daemon Engines. I’m not unhappy with what they did get models wise, just Daemon Engines would’ve been super cool.
I can only hope that with Chaos now in ascendency, we’ll see them emptying the armouries, and more Daemon Engines rocking up in the game.
A greater variety of daemon engine types would be good. But CSM shouldn't be penalized for taking non-daemon engine vehicles. I don't have anything against daemon engines, but we shouldn't be strong-armed into using them.
They haven't removed any of their traditional vehicles, they just need rebalancing. You can build a csm list without any daemon units fairly easily.
Right, rebalancing. Lower the points for Land Raiders, Predators, and Vindicators, and remove Martial Legacy from the Heresy era units. At least our daemon engines will be able to shoot and hit straight once the codex is released. That's a good thing.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Would still have liked something akin to mini-Silver Towers, which could be fielded in pairs, with a LoS blocking straight line between them, ala Old Epic.
Oh I like that idea.
That should have been the 1KSons terrain kit - a pair of floating mini-Silver Towers. Give them some interaction with psychic powers (ie. can measure range of the power from the tower is the Psyker is within X" distance), and a small psychic attack, and they float around!
And you’d need to make wom wom wom wom wom wom wom noises whilst moving them.
Could definitely work as a form of fortification. Tau already have (perhaps had? Modern knowledge remains woeful) mobile if slow trenches and that.
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GW still need a better vision of what CSM is. CSM right now just feels like inferior marines...
We have chaplains who are on foot, while most SM chaplains are zipping around on a bike. Not to mention our chaplains are far less scary than the SM Chaplains who seem to be able to kill even Captains and Chaos lords with ease.
Our basic CSM is an inferior marine to the basic first born marine, much less a primaris marine...
Chosen are a joke. The meanest baddest CSM are so bad nobody fields them, plus there isn't even a proper model range for them unless you got the Dark Vengence set.
Only cult troops are interesting and have great character, but these are being hived off to the dedicated cult books anyway like DG and TSons. The center piece of a CSM army can't be a cult marine, not when that is already the center piece of other codex like DG and Tsons already.
Daemon Engines shouldn't be the only distinctive thing in the CSM codex because the codex is called Chaos Space Marines, it isn't called codex daemon engines...
Same for all demonic stuff. There is already a codex called chaos daemons. CSM have embraced the dark gods, and yes have mutations in their ranks. But they are not all demonic yet. If you want a fully demonic army, then just play chaos daemons.
Even our biggest baddest general Abaddon is like that. He is favoured by the dark gods, but he isn't a daemon prince. Abby is still "mortal". CSM codex shouldn't = demons since there is already a chaos daemon codex.
Eldenfirefly wrote: GW still need a better vision of what CSM is. CSM right now just feels like inferior marines...
We have chaplains who are on foot, while most SM chaplains are zipping around on a bike. Not to mention our chaplains are far less scary than the SM Chaplains who seem to be able to kill even Captains and Chaos lords with ease.
Our basic CSM is an inferior marine to the basic first born marine, much less a primaris marine...
Chosen are a joke. The meanest baddest CSM are so bad nobody fields them, plus there isn't even a proper model range for them unless you got the Dark Vengence set.
Only cult troops are interesting and have great character, but these are being hived off to the dedicated cult books anyway like DG and TSons. The center piece of a CSM army can't be a cult marine, not when that is already the center piece of other codex like DG and Tsons already.
Daemon Engines shouldn't be the only distinctive thing in the CSM codex because the codex is called Chaos Space Marines, it isn't called codex daemon engines...
Same for all demonic stuff. There is already a codex called chaos daemons. CSM have embraced the dark gods, and yes have mutations in their ranks. But they are not all demonic yet. If you want a fully demonic army, then just play chaos daemons.
Even our biggest baddest general Abaddon is like that. He is favoured by the dark gods, but he isn't a daemon prince. Abby is still "mortal". CSM codex shouldn't = demons since there is already a chaos daemon codex.
Any unit with any degree of mutation or possession gets the daemon keyword, due to being... part daemon. If you take those out you've essentially set yourself back to "marines with spikes", which I don't say missing the point, I say this because what else do you expect them to do?
There are serious missteps with CSM but right now the only way to make them feel like anything that isn't "Space Marines but edgy" is to use things like Daemon Engines, Possessed, and Obliterators since at its core, the army is still technically a variety of Space Marine. For rules, obviously, CSM are going to be inferior because the Codex is from last Edition where it wasn't particularly great anyway.
As we all know well, there's the infuriating central dichotomy with CSMs whereby in the lore they should be at least as powerful as loyalist marines because of additional experience / ancient better wargear / not bound by imperial dogma / dark powers of chaos etc; and yet in-game they're not allowed to be because we can't just ROFLstomp little Timmy's first army. Don't know how they resolve that.
I mean, I know how I want them to... Blood For The Blood God! Little Timmy's skull for the Skull Throne!
I don't think its some coherent effort to keep SM on top otherwise they'd be the only army anyone complained about every single edition, which obviously isn't the case. It's just that the army is extremely broad in scope, much like SM, but doesn't have the model support to back it up.
I think Upgrade Kits for the non-Cult Legions and the Red Corsairs would go a long way to making the range feel a bit more complete, rather than having to rely on FW.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 16:48:10
The main trouble with Space Marines is that their Codex tends to remain flexible enough in terms of unit choice that it can perform in pretty much any kind of meta.
However, I still don’t agree that CSM should be better than Loyalist Marines.
Sure, a given individual and his squad mates might be more experienced than Loyalists - but they lack the formal military structure and logistical support of Loyalists.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The main trouble with Space Marines is that their Codex tends to remain flexible enough in terms of unit choice that it can perform in pretty much any kind of meta.
However, I still don’t agree that CSM should be better than Loyalist Marines.
Sure, a given individual and his squad mates might be more experienced than Loyalists - but they lack the formal military structure and logistical support of Loyalists.
I think there should be (at least) three CSM Troops choices. Names I'm not set on, but the concept is clear.
Raw Recruits They're power-armored, they're Chaos Space Marines, but they're not battle-hardened. They're worse and cheaper than a basic Space Marine.
Chaos Space Marines The equivalent of a Tactical, but with the ability to customize a little more, and because of that, they can end up (on a squad level) more expensive than a Tactical Squad.
Chosen Better than an Intercessor, and by a decent margin. If an Intercessor is fair at 20 points, these guys should START around 25. Tons of customization, tons of ability to upgrade them. These are the Veterans Of The Long War, the Legionnaires, those who have been around for millennia of war.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
1. Every Chaos Legion that has not got a new codex actually suck.
2. You Disco with Daemon engines or nothing else to compete.
3. Troops for Obsec are only 2. csm and cultist. Nothing else like ISM get. Which is understood to a degree as they are pretty stagnate in the warp compared to the Imperium.
4. This is some view points on what to do.
1. Let us stat with Dark APostles and Master of Possession getting equipment upgrades. EAch Undivided legion should have 1-2 new HQ, Daemon summoning should be fixed.
2. Black Legion is known to have many of the big 4 under them. Troop section should allow 1 of the big 4 as troops choice per standard CSM unit taken to get more Obsec.
3. Word Bearers is known to have more possessed csm, more interaction with daemons. So, Troop Daemons and possessed should be in troop section for OBsec on a 1v1 basis with either CSM and cultists taken. Possessed need some type of range attack like boltpistols to make them more comparable to other similar melee units.
4. Iron Warriors should move elite to troops section with a 1v1 basic csm squad. they should also be able to have reduced weapon cost and vehicle cost as that is their thing.
5. Alpha legion should also have elite in troops and a new scout(sabatoge) unit in elite section. or other way round.
6. Nightlords should have a new psych that can force leadhship rolls at a penalty. they also should have the snipers iand elietes n troop section but again with a 1v1 ratio with standard CSM or cultists.
4. Iron Warriors should move elite to troops section with a 1v1 basic csm squad. they should also be able to have reduced weapon cost and vehicle cost as that is their thing.
Nope. Never have 1 subfaction have more elites at lower prices, that's how stuff gets very broken and stays very broken.
Or more of anything cheaper for that matter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 18:50:46
Yeah there are better ways to represent Iron Warriors than that sort of stuff. That was problematic in 3.5, and was one of the only genuinely problematic things apart from daemonbomb.
JNAProductions wrote: I think there should be (at least) three CSM Troops choices. Names I'm not set on, but the concept is clear.
Raw Recruits They're power-armored, they're Chaos Space Marines, but they're not battle-hardened. They're worse and cheaper than a basic Space Marine.
Chaos Space Marines The equivalent of a Tactical, but with the ability to customize a little more, and because of that, they can end up (on a squad level) more expensive than a Tactical Squad.
Chosen Better than an Intercessor, and by a decent margin. If an Intercessor is fair at 20 points, these guys should START around 25. Tons of customization, tons of ability to upgrade them. These are the Veterans Of The Long War, the Legionnaires, those who have been around for millennia of war.
This is an overall concept that makes a lot of sense. It keeps csm from being just marines but spiky, as they’ve been described already in the thread.
As a matter of gameplay I don’t think it’s necessary to make an opponent distinguish between three different types of just power armor troops on foot. In the background the middle grade who have loyalist discipline would be so rare they’d be reserved for special jobs like havocs, fast attack, and tank crew.
If a chaos player wants a troop choice that’s similar to a tactical squad they should have to pay for expensive chosen and equip them that way, the way in 30k it’s only possible to get a codex style tactical squad if they’re veterans.
As for names raw recruits might be something marauders or raiders, referring to Fantasy.
1. Let us stat with Dark APostles and Master of Possession getting equipment upgrades. EAch Undivided legion should have 1-2 new HQ, Daemon summoning should be fixed.
2. Black Legion is known to have many of the big 4 under them. Troop section should allow 1 of the big 4 as troops choice per standard CSM unit taken to get more Obsec.
3. Word Bearers is known to have more possessed csm, more interaction with daemons. So, Troop Daemons and possessed should be in troop section for OBsec on a 1v1 basis with either CSM and cultists taken. Possessed need some type of range attack like boltpistols to make them more comparable to other similar melee units.
4. Iron Warriors should move elite to troops section with a 1v1 basic csm squad. they should also be able to have reduced weapon cost and vehicle cost as that is their thing.
5. Alpha legion should also have elite in troops and a new scout(sabatoge) unit in elite section. or other way round.
6. Nightlords should have a new psych that can force leadhship rolls at a penalty. they also should have the snipers iand elietes n troop section but again with a 1v1 ratio with standard CSM or cultists.
1 - SM Chaplains don't actually have loads of options, nor do Librarians. MoP and Apostles don't need options they just need to be good. Each non-Cult Legion should be getting 1 Character and a unit, nothing more, nothing less. When the named Characters section starts to get bigger than the rest of the Codex it's a problem. The exception for me would be the Word Bearers who should get both Kor Phaeron and Erebus.
2 - Black Legion IMO are fine. The rules make sense for the kind of tactics they employ, plus they have 2 named Characters.
3 - Word Bearers don't need more Possessed, they just need to not lose faction rules if they take Daemons. Oh and a better Legion Trait that isn't a basic rule for SM.
4 - Iron Warriors just need to not be awful and horseshoed into Obliterators and Daemon Engines.
5 - Some form of infiltrator would be neat for the AL but overall not sure how they play so can't comment.
6 - NL just suffer from the fact that in general CSM are a bad army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/13 22:37:47
Not be caustic, but its cute that you guys think Worldeaters and Emps Children are getting books in the next few years (if ever). People have been wish listing it since KDK. Has yet to happen and wont imho, not anytime soon at least.
So how is it that GW knows how to make a dozen distinct different space marine factions with only very few or zero actual unit variations between one or another, and yet, CSM, with all its daemon engines, obliterators, chaos stuff, etc can't be made into a unique faction instead of "Inferior space marines with spikes" ...
Eldenfirefly wrote:So how is it that GW knows how to make a dozen distinct different space marine factions with only very few or zero actual unit variations between one or another, and yet, CSM, with all its daemon engines, obliterators, chaos stuff, etc can't be made into a unique faction instead of "Inferior space marines with spikes" ...
Because gw has for some reason decided to stick with the godawful 4th edition codex concept where every Legion is basically Black Legion/Renegades with a different paint scheme instead of looking at our last good codex (3.5) for ideas.
Gert wrote:6 - NL just suffer from the fact that in general CSM are a bad army.
Yeah, we definitely don't need a Legion trait that isn't practically useless against most of the factions in the game, or rules that make going Undivided/no Mark a viable option.
And isn't "CSM being a bad army" bad for every Legion?
Table wrote: Not be caustic, but its cute that you guys think Worldeaters and Emps Children are getting books in the next few years (if ever). People have been wish listing it since KDK. Has yet to happen and wont imho, not anytime soon at least.
Table wrote: Not be caustic, but its cute that you guys think Worldeaters and Emps Children are getting books in the next few years (if ever). People have been wish listing it since KDK. Has yet to happen and wont imho, not anytime soon at least.
And they'll never put Primarchs in 40k either.
Something something there's no way they'll ever let you take Lords of War like Baneblades in 40k...
Pepperidge Farm Remembers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/14 04:32:35
So many great responses in this chat.
Main thing from everyone is
1. update the chaos figures
2. Chaos does not have the ability to field new tech
3. Chaos Marines are the same as the original marines for stats. So no Primaris please
4. They dont age over10,000 years of experience over the Imperial Space Marines.
5. They cant reproduce as much after dying. So after 10,000 years there shouldnt be so many around anymore, however, they should have bsws better than space marines for all of them being veterans of a 10,000 long battle.
IwinUlose wrote: So many great responses in this chat.
Main thing from everyone is
1. update the chaos figures
2. Chaos does not have the ability to field new tech
3. Chaos Marines are the same as the original marines for stats. So no Primaris please
4. They dont age over10,000 years of experience over the Imperial Space Marines.
5. They cant reproduce as much after dying. So after 10,000 years there shouldnt be so many around anymore, however, they should have bsws better than space marines for all of them being veterans of a 10,000 long battle.
1 - Yes.
2 - In that the army shouldn't just become a carbon copy of Space Marines, yes.
3 - Yes.
4 - No, not even close.
5 - Again no, CSM replenish their ranks through Renegades, stolen Loyalist gene-seed or cloned gene-seed gained from a deal with a Traitor Apothecary/Magos. CSM are not all VotLW but IMO there shouldn't be different unit profiles to reflect this since replacements happen all the time and giving every single CSM unit 2+ WS/BS would make them as good in battle as things like Custodes, which they are objectively not.
