Summary Abbadon, simply put, is nearly the best IC in the game for duels. As an added bonus, he also can wreck entire squads at a time. While the CSM codex may be lack-luster in may ways, it is solid in one sense -- Abbadon will take any other IC's lunch money and send him home crying.
Sometimes luck does play a role, and Abbadon will die to a grot, but when doing mathammer we will go off averages.
2+ Saves Having a 2+ save is a huge advantage in assault. Now that most ICs have a AP3 weapon, ICs with 2+ saves ignore 83.33% of incoming damage. This is why artificer armor and terminator armor is so important for ICs in duels.
Look at the number of ICs with AP2 weapons. Draigo got boned. Mephiston has become Ghazguls gimp. Vect is hell on heels until he faces Calgar in a duel. That's why ICs with power fists/power axes are so good -- they can get around the AP2 barrier. Of course, most of those are unwieldy which brings its own disadvantage
Other Forms of Durability Abbadon also sports a T5, EW, and a 4++ save. This is important as first it means that he is wounded on a 5+ by most ICs -- meaning that hes 50% more durable vs STR 4 attacks than a T4 IC.
EW is critical to avoid ID blows from STR 10 weapons or force weapons. One lucky strike by Mephiston will end any IC without EW.
The Best Defense is a Good Offence Abbadon is WS7, which means hes hitting most ICs on a 3+. His weapons are a STR 5 AP2 daemon weapon or a STR 8 AP3 weapon with shred.
He has perferred enemy 'most of the game...errr space marines'. This means when he hits and wounds on a 3+, hes really hitting and wounding 78% of the time.
In addition to this, Abbadon also 'hates' normal space marines. On the first round of an assault he is rerolling all failed hits vs marines.
Abbadon also has 'counter-charge' and 'rage'. If Abbadon is assaulted, he will have 6 attacks, and if he charges he will have 7 attacks. This works best when Abbadon is placed in a squad of plague marines, negating the extra attacks for charging that your opponent gets.
If hes facing a T4 opponent without EW, he can use the claw to ID him. The STR 8 claw also works great on dreads. Unlike power fists, it goes at I6. This means any normal space marine IC without EW should be renamed 'chum'. Even Vulcan with his 2+/3++ likely will die on turn 1, and probably won't make it past turn 2.
Against other targets, Abbadon can use his AP2 daemon weapon. Its STR 5, and he will have 8 attacks with it on average.
Part of what makes Abbadon just beat the face out of the other ICs is his ability to get so many attacks per round. Lysander will be hitting Abbadon three times a turn, while Abbadon can smack him in return up to 11 times a round. The sheer number of dice Abbadon can throw vastly scales things in his favor.
Who can beat Abbadon I've done a bunch of mathammer, and none of these ICs can hold a candle to Abbadon. I can provide the mathhammer showing each of these cases.
Vect
Vulcan
Lysander
Azrael
Ghazghkull
Avatar (Fortuned)
So far, the models who can take Abbadons lunch money are the following
- Swarmlord
- Necron lord with MSS / Weave / Phase Shifter / Warscythe
- CSMDP with Black Mace
- Greater Daemons of Khorne or Slaanesh
Some can keep Abbadon from taking their lunch money
- Crowe dying with heroic sacrifice
- Librarian tooled to not die the entire game.
If you know anyone else let me know!
When to use what weapon The mathhammer has shown a few guildelines for when to use which of Abbadon's weapons. There are exceptions, but here are good guidelines
On average Drach'nyen has 3 more attacks per round, but the "Talon of Horus" is STR 8.
* When going for the ID go with the "Talon of Horus". (Vulcan, Azrael)
* When going after T6+ targets, use the "Talon of Horus" (Avatar, Swarmlord)
* When going for an IC with EW, go with Drach'nyen (Ghazghkull, Lysander)
* When chopping up loyalist marine squads, use Drach'nyen.
See the sig file below? That's what Abbadon will do to your IC.
Abby beats dragio every time, which is funny.
Only an archon stands a good chance of killing abby, drazar does as well though that ones a little more luck based. Also comes down to combat drugs on the archon.
Oddly enough, the best way to deal with abbadon is to use an ironclad dreadnought.
I've gotten lucky with termie Calgar and BT termie Marshal, EW and TH/SS, but in both cases he had already lost some wounds and did not roll very high on Drachnyen.
juraigamer wrote: Only an archon stands a good chance of killing abby, drazar does as well though that ones a little more luck based. Also comes down to combat drugs on the archon.
The archon's result is much like Vect, save that his attacks are AP2. The archon's problem is that Abbadon is immune to the husk blade's ID effect, and he wounds Abbadon on a 6. He also suffers from the problem Vect has -- one failed save means hes ID.
Oddly enough, the best way to deal with abbadon is to use an ironclad dreadnought.
Even with the "Talon of Horus" being STR 8? While only 1/6 of the hits will penetrate, Abbadon should be able to knock enough hull points off it before it kills Abbadon.
I've found the best counter is not to try and kill him, but tie him up. A guard blob can complete this task by feeding him a sergeant each round. A librarian with terminator armor and storm shield who rolled "Precognition" on the divination tree will live long enough to cause some wounds since he has a 8/9 chance of saving.
phoenix darkus wrote: I've gotten lucky with termie Calgar and BT termie Marshal, EW and TH/SS, but in both cases he had already lost some wounds and did not roll very high on Drachnyen.
Luck does play a role. The point of this post is to let you know that if Abbadon normally meets up with Calgar, Calgar will be crunched. Calgar, Lysander, and the BT Marshal all are some of the best matchups, however. ICs like Vulcan just crumble.
Necron overlords with MSS, res orb and Warscythe has a 2+/3++/4+++, t5 with a s7 ap1 weapon. Even with ld10 Abby will fail the MSS test 50% of the time, and when he does he dies. All his own attacks plus the ap1 overlords attacks should make sure of that.
When he doesn't fail the MSS test, he still has a 1 in 6 chance of becoming ws1, as well as having to deal with a 3++ AND a 4+ RP. That's pretty resilient, and the Overlord is a good 100pts cheaper.
Swarmlord. The only thing with a chance against the Swarmlord in a duel has Mindshackle Scarabs, and none of those guys are Eternal Warriors, so even they don't have a very good chance.
labmouse42 wrote: The archon's result is much like Vect, save that his attacks are AP2. The archon's problem is that Abbadon is immune to the husk blade's ID effect, and he wounds Abbadon on a 6. He also suffers from the problem Vect has -- one failed save means hes ID.
Venomblade may be a better option than the Huskblade. Don't have my books on me to do the math.
Either way though, it's an extreme uphill battle for an Archon.
BarBoBot wrote: Necron overlords with MSS, res orb and Warscythe has a 2+/3++/4+++, t5 with a s7 ap1 weapon. .
Sweet! You found someone who can keep their lunch money!
Btw, the lord is 90 points cheaper. That's without a CCB or anything like a ress orb
Abbadon vs. Necron Lord Lets assume the Necron Lord has MSS, Warscythe, Phase Shifter, and Sempiternal Weave. Due to the MSS, the lord has a slightly better chance than average to kill Abbadon! The real trick are the MSS rolls, and that will make or break the battle. If Abbadon makes 3 of his rolls in a row, its good game to the lord. If he fails 3 times, then its over for Abbadon.
Remember, Abbadon gets his 4++ from the daemon weapon wound.
Abbadon using "Talon of Horus":
WS 7 vs. WS 4 = 66.66% chance to hit
S 8 vs. T5 = 86.33% chance to wound (increased to 97.22% with "Talon of Horus"),
Necron Lord has a 2+ save = 16.66% chance to get through, and
Abbadon has counter-attack and rage, so gets 7 attacks on the first round of combat.
66.67% × 97.22% × 16.66% × 7 attacks = ~.76 unsaved wounds on the first round.
66.67% × 97.22% × 16.66% × 5 attacks = ~.54 unsaved wounds on the next rounds.
On round 6 in the assault Necron Lord will die from the the "Talon of Horus"
Abbadon using "Drach'nyen":
WS 7 vs. WS 4 = 66.66% chance to hit
S 5 vs. T5 = 50% chance to wound
Necron Lord has a 3++ save = 33.33% chance to get through, and
Abbadon has counter-attack and rage, so gets 7 attacks on the first round of combat.
On a roll of 1, the daemon weapon reduces WS to 1, and wounds Abbadon.
33.33% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 5 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.04, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 7 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.12, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 8 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.15, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 9 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.17, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.19, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 11 attacks × 16.67% = 0.20 equals ~.88 unsaved wounds on rounds 2+
Necron Lord will likely die on round 4 of the combat.
Necron Lord:
WS 4 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit
Necron Lord wounds Abbadon on a 2+
Abbadon has a 4++ save = 50.00% chance to get through, and
50.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 3 attacks = .625 unsaved wounds per round
Abbadon will die on round 7 of the assault.
MSS Monkey :
What makes this tricky is that only 1/2 of the time will Abbadon be dealing damage to the Necron Lord. The other 1/2 the time, hes hitting himself for .67 points of damage.
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 2 attacks × 16.67% = 0.04, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 4 attacks × 16.67% = 0.08, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 5 attacks × 16.67% = 0.10, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 6 attacks × 16.67% = 0.13, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 7 attacks × 16.67% = 0.14, plus
50.00% × 50.00% × 50.00% × 8 attacks × 16.67% = 0.16 equals ~.67 unsaved wounds on rounds 2+
Necron Lord will likely die on round 4 of the combat.
Long Hand :
On round one, Abbadon will do 1.08 wounds to Lord. Lord will do .625 to Abbadon
On round two, Abbadon will hit himself for .67 wounds. Lord will do .625 to Abbadon.
On round three, Abbadon will do .88 wounds to Lord. Lord will do .625 to Abbadon
On round four, Abbadon will hit himself for .67 wounds. Lord will do .625 to Abbadon.
On round five, Abbadon hits lord for .88 wounds. Lord kills abbadon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarknessEternal wrote: Swarmlord. The only thing with a chance against the Swarmlord in a duel has Mindshackle Scarabs, and none of those guys are Eternal Warriors, so even they don't have a very good chance.
Don't forget the Tesseract Labyrinth, one failed save against that and Abby is gone, no save no nothing. So do a round or two of MSS to have Abby put a wound or two on himself and then banish his ass to the Tesseract!
Necronic Angel wrote: Don't forget the Tesseract Labyrinth, one failed save against that and Abby is gone, no save no nothing. So do a round or two of MSS to have Abby put a wound or two on himself and then banish his ass to the Tesseract!
I try to avoid using one shot insta-kill items in these challange calculations. Its like saying "fateweaver has a 1/6 chance of spawning abbadon every round"
That is a good point, though. You can increase the chances of the Tesseract Labyrinth working by waiting until your opponent is wounded.
Also chipping in to say that the only time that I've seen Abaddon in a challenge was when he challenged my Ragnar. Ragnar won. You don't need to do the mathammer on that one, it is well known that Abaddon should really give Ragnar a good kicking with average dice.
Typhus does not have the attacks to do the job. He has 3 attacks that will hit on 4s, wound on 3s, and Abbadon ignores 50% of them. Typhus will be have his lunch money taken.
In order to beat Abbadon, you need something to vastly increase the damage delt (MSS), reduce his defense (swarmlords bone swords), or vastly increase your resilience (Ghaz if he gets both WAAAAGH rounds)
Not many ICs have the tools to do the job. Ghaz can if he gets both rounds. A Necron MSS lord has the second best chance.
Outside the ICs, the swarmlord and black mace DP are the best bets. Those, however, suffer from a lack of IC. The swarmlord will eat tons of lascannon shots on the way in and the DP will suffer the same. That's the advantage of being an IC -- look out sir.
Abbadon is quite the badass, I agree. Although, in general, I just plan to deny duels (which is why I haven't thought about with ICs are really good at it) because very little in the BA codex is any good at it. Ah, the irony.
What I found fascinating by this excercise was how bad the imperial ICs compared to the xenos ones. I would not have guessed it, but it seems xenos/chaos have the better ICs.
swarmlord, especially since his boneswords ignore armour saves and force successful rerolls of invuln saves. Give him iron arm for even more fun and games
Also I may be completely wrong but i though the swarmlord was an IC?
edit-just reread the entry, my mistake
Hive Fleet Lazarus wrote: swarmlord, especially since his boneswords ignore armour saves and force successful rerolls of invuln saves. Give him iron arm for even more fun and games
Swarmlord is not an IC.
This thread was not titled "Beat this unit" Its specifically geared twords how Abbadon will take your ICs lunch money.
ICs have a nice advantage in that they are really hard to hurt in a unit. For example, if you stick Abbadon in a squad of 30 cultists, he just knocks off 5/6 of the incoming shots to cultists. The Swarmlord does not have that advantage.
That's why I specified ICs.
That being said, yes, the swarmlord will edge out Abbadon - especially if he draws "Endurance" or "Warp Speed"
"Iron Arm" does not help as much since Abbadon's claw has shred. Even a T8 swarmlord is still wounded 75% of the time.
Sure, that lord will crush an enemy IC in assault, but it will do squat to 10 MEQ. The warscythe will kill 1-2 MEQ a round. The MSS will cause one MEQ to punch his buddy, and the rest will just beat into the lord.
Worst of all, if the lord wins CC, the marines just fall back out of his I2 easily, regroup then shoot the lord in the face.
I find that my Lysander wins a little over 60% of his duels against Abbadon but there always close when he wins. But when Abby wins they are usually blowouts. I attribute Lysanders wins to his S10 MC thunderhammer, EW, and 3+ invulnerable saves.
Swarmlord is treated as an IC if he's with his "Guard" since Abby normally roles with his "Body Gurads" I'd say its safe to say its even.
I've done this fight with a friend close to 50 times I'm sure, its a toss up with Abby having an advantage with his St8. However the moment you take into account Biomancy Swarmlord really shines.
Swarmlord can take tyrant guard however, which is sort of like sticking him in a squad. Therefore most people lump him into these type of deathmatches.
Of course xenos have better ICs. Most xeno HQs have high WS, high A, high I high wounds, a good inv save or multiple of those. They rarely have good armor and inv saves however and most xeno HQs that are dedicated to combat dont have great support functions.
Well my win/lose record with Lysander against Abbadon does not care about your math. My record just cares that in my games Lysander kills Abby a little over 60% of the time. Out of 39 duels Lysander has killed Abby 24 times which is about 62% give or take a hundredth or two.
I'm not 100% sold on the mathhammer on Abby vs MSS Lord. How exactly do MSS interact with daemon weapons, multiple CCWs, and choice of which weapon to use?
Regardless, however, my advice on dealing with Abbadon remains the same as it did when I originally did this kind of analysis a while back.
Creeperman wrote: Moral of the story: Avoid CC with Abbadon. Shoot him in the face instead until the twitching stops.
Yes, Abaddon on average takes most IC's lunch money and eats it. I'd like to continue from that and ask: what good ways are there to run abaddon to ensure that he gets to take the enemy's lunch money?
We already know that, barring bad daemon weapon luck or repeated MSS fails, he will crunch through most anything. So how can we put him to work for CSM?
I'm not that big of a fan of the Chaos Chosen he unlocks, or at least the minimum Chosen with maximum special weapons spam in Rhinos that some people have tried to put together for Abaddon. CSM don't have the drop pods to do a Pedro Sternguard list, which is probably one of the better uses for veteran equivalents. I'd guess running a few units of chosen, supplemented by cultists and regular CSM would be more recommended, but nothing sticks out above the rest.
In addition, how should we get him into combat? He's got a huge target on his head, and is less survivable than Lysander against a bunch of plasma shots. Do we do what we do with Kharn/Typhus. and put him with a large unit of Cultists/Zombies and use them as meat shields? Deep Strike him? Knowing that Chaos has probably the best duelist HQ outside of a MSS Overlord or Destroyer Lord, how can we use him to fortify Chaos armies?
The swarmlord with Ironarm and that one power that speeds him up kills Abaddon every single time. Sure he only goes super saiyan in one out of a hundred games, but when he does I think he can handle anything in the game in melee, Bio-titans included. I've seriously tried it, Swarmy can kill a Hierophant bio-titan before it can even get a chance to hurt him when he hulks out on Biomancy. I've actually tried and found that a Hulked out swarmy can kill each of the forgeworld greater daemon lords in succession in short order.
MSS allows the necron player to choose the weapon that the affected model must use. It also allows the necron player to activate/use any other cc abilities that the affected character has.
This means that if abaddon fails the 3d6 leadership test for MSS he will hit himself with the demon weapon or the talon. The necron player chooses.
BarBoBot wrote: MSS allows the necron player to choose the weapon that the affected model must use. It also allows the necron player to activate/use any other cc abilities that the affected character has.
This means that if abaddon fails the 3d6 leadership test for MSS he will hit himself with the demon weapon or the talon. The necron player chooses.
To make matters better, by using the daemon weapon its d3 attacks +d6. Thats how Abbadon can really punch himself in the face.
As mentioned, its give and take. The necron lord can't cut through a squad of MEQ worth a damn. To make matters worse, they can break, rally, then shoot the lord in the face.
Lysander:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit,
Lysander wounds Abbadon on a 2+
Abbadon has a 2+ save = 16.66% chance to get through, and
Lysander has a master crafted weapon, letting him reroll one attack
75.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 1 attacks = 0.10, plus
50.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 2 attacks = 0.14 equals ~.72 unsaved wounds
Abbadon will die on round 6 of the assault.
Odds are really good that Lysander will die. Abbadon will need to bite himself 2-3 times to die.
Why is abbadon getting a 2+ save here? Is Lysander's th not ap2?
Lysander:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit,
Lysander wounds Abbadon on a 2+
Abbadon has a 2+ save = 16.66% chance to get through, and
Lysander has a master crafted weapon, letting him reroll one attack
75.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 1 attacks = 0.10, plus
50.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 2 attacks = 0.14 equals ~.72 unsaved wounds
Abbadon will die on round 6 of the assault.
Odds are really good that Lysander will die. Abbadon will need to bite himself 2-3 times to die.
Why is abbadon getting a 2+ save here? Is Lysander's th not ap2?
Could you run the numbers with Dante?
Abaddon is going to show up with -1 WS, -1 Init, -1 Attack, and -1 Wound; thanks to Dante's Death Mask.
He's also going to force the Ld test or fight at WS1.
Abbaddon can ID him with the S8 and Dante only gets his 4++ against that. But should he survive, can he do abbaddon in?
If you factor in the no scatter deep strike and 5-6 AP2/AP1 shots that they take before the combat, and you've got something that abbaddon should worry about.
If nothing else, it plays out just like Horus. The Blood Angel faces him first, weakens hims, then dies, just in time from some better guy to off him and take all the credit.
Dante and Friends, should they survive, can opt to hit and run.
labmouse42 wrote: To make matters better, by using the daemon weapon its d3 attacks +d6. Thats how Abbadon can really punch himself in the face
Actually, no. Its just the D3, confirmed by the FAQ:
Q: If mindshackle scarabs are used against a model whose weapon
gives them additional Attacks in close combat for any reason, are these
attacks added to the number of hits the model causes on their unit (for
example a Daemon Weapon)? (p81)
A: No.
labmouse42 wrote: To make matters better, by using the daemon weapon its d3 attacks +d6. Thats how Abbadon can really punch himself in the face
Actually, no. Its just the D3, confirmed by the FAQ:
Q: If mindshackle scarabs are used against a model whose weapon
gives them additional Attacks in close combat for any reason, are these
attacks added to the number of hits the model causes on their unit (for
example a Daemon Weapon)? (p81)
A: No.
If they could, they'd cost twice the price.
Hmmm....
I will need to redo the Necron Lord numbers then. That's a lot less self-damage to abbadon then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
WangoFett wrote: CSM Daemon Prince of whatever with the black mace.
Oh wait, does he count as he is not an IC?
The CSMDP with the black mace will get Abbadon on average.
The challange he has is that its not an IC and will get shot at before he gets there.
labmouse42 wrote: To make matters better, by using the daemon weapon its d3 attacks +d6. Thats how Abbadon can really punch himself in the face
Actually, no. Its just the D3, confirmed by the FAQ:
Q: If mindshackle scarabs are used against a model whose weapon
gives them additional Attacks in close combat for any reason, are these
attacks added to the number of hits the model causes on their unit (for
example a Daemon Weapon)? (p81)
A: No.
If they could, they'd cost twice the price.
Hmmm....
I will need to redo the Necron Lord numbers then. That's a lot less self-damage to abbadon then.
Aye, but they are still quite good. but, as someomne mentioned, a TessLab will be his undoing.
Brymm wrote: I'd love to see the math on Crowe, but I bet he eats it in 2 rounds- or less.
Abbadon Vs Crowe Abbadon will take Crowe's lunch money without even blinking. Crowe will strike first, and if hes lucky he will do one wound to Abbadon. Abbadon will then do massive overkill on Crowe.
Crowe's best option is to use Heroic Sacrifice after his lunch money was taken to kick Abbadon in the jimmies. At least that way they both go down.
Abbadon using "Drach'nyen": WS 7 vs. WS 8 = 75% chance to hit (with hatred)
S 5 vs. T4 = 77.77% chance to wound (with perferred enemy)
Crowe has a 4++ save = 50.00% chance to get through, and
On a roll of 1, the daemon weapon reduces WS to 1, and wounds Abbadon.
Crowe: WS 8 vs. WS 7 = 66.66% chance to hit,
Crowe will wound Abbadon on a 5+, or 33.33%
All wounds will be rending, so Abbadon will be using his 4++ save.
As mentioned, Swarmlord is the ultimate CC unit. Stick him with one LW tyrant guard for maximum face wreckage. But really, he's the main man for challenges.
labmouse42 wrote: I will need to redo the Necron Lord numbers then. That's a lot less self-damage to abbadon then.
It makes little difference in most cases. Assuming Abbadon always uses Drach'nyen, he will average ~0.88 wounds per turn he's in control of himself, so ~0.44 wounds in total (increase to ~0.54 on the charge). Meanwhile, the Overlord should manage ~0.63 by himself (~0.83 on the charge), plus ~0.08 wounds per turn Abbadon is in control from Drach'nyen's rebellion (which per the FAQ would not trigger on MSS attacks), plus an average 0.25 wounds each turn Abbadon is successfully shackled.
0.63 base wounds + (0.08 rebellion + 0.25 MSS) × 50% probability (since each event is mutually exclusive of the other) equals ~0.79 wounds (~1.00 on the charge) in total to Abbadon each turn, which should lay him out in five rounds of combat, whilst Abbadon requires six rounds to cut down the Overlord. However, note that if Abbadon gets the charge off on the Overlord instead, his higher initiative will actually allow him to (statistically) win the fight before the Overlord can finish him off.
Actually, your copy and paste job (what's Lysander doing in St. Celestine's stuff?) aside, some of your math is off. St. Celestine will almost certainly be getting the charge off on Abby with her greater movement and all, so you forgot to factor in her HoW attack and her 6 attacks on the charge. Furthermore, St. Celestine can (and half the time) will get back up to do it again to Abbadon. She will most certainly lose the fight in the short run but she may win the war in the long run. Also, unless I'm misunderstanding, you didn't factor in the extra hits she, or anyone, would get against Abby when he does roll a 1 for his Daemon weapon. So while dire combat per combat, please rework the numbers and see that Celestine may have what it takes to not only get her lunch money back, but also may take Abbadon's!
Brymm wrote: I'd love to see the math on Crowe, but I bet he eats it in 2 rounds- or less.
Abbadon Vs Crowe Abbadon will take Crowe's lunch money without even blinking. Crowe will strike first, and if hes lucky he will do one wound to Abbadon. Abbadon will then do massive overkill on Crowe.
Crowe's best option is to use Heroic Sacrifice after his lunch money was taken to kick Abbadon in the jimmies. At least that way they both go down.
Abbadon using "Drach'nyen": WS 7 vs. WS 8 = 75% chance to hit (with hatred)
S 5 vs. T4 = 77.77% chance to wound (with perferred enemy)
Crowe has a 4++ save = 50.00% chance to get through, and
On a roll of 1, the daemon weapon reduces WS to 1, and wounds Abbadon.
Crowe: WS 8 vs. WS 7 = 66.66% chance to hit,
Crowe will wound Abbadon on a 5+, or 33.33%
All wounds will be rending, so Abbadon will be using his 4++ save.
crowe would wound on 4+. Rends allow you to wound things you cannot normally wound. AKA str3 razowings who have rending can wound wraithlords on a 6.
crowe rends on 4+ so he wounds on 4+ or better. Against abby he wounds on 4+. Still barely notice him.
Actually, your copy and paste job (what's Lysander doing in St. Celestine's stuff?) aside, some of your math is off. St. Celestine will almost certainly be getting the charge off on Abby with her greater movement and all, so you forgot to factor in her HoW attack and her 6 attacks on the charge. Furthermore, St. Celestine can (and half the time) will get back up to do it again to Abbadon. She will most certainly lose the fight in the short run but she may win the war in the long run. Also, unless I'm misunderstanding, you didn't factor in the extra hits she, or anyone, would get against Abby when he does roll a 1 for his Daemon weapon. So while dire combat per combat, please rework the numbers and see that Celestine may have what it takes to not only get her lunch money back, but also may take Abbadon's!
you cant use the greater movement AND get hammer of wrath. It's one or the other.
dues should happen in a vacuum, charging makes things difficult. Drazhar can be str5 with pain tokens and the charge, but you cannot guarentee the charge.
Too bad Abby is in a very lackluster codex, also the rule that forces him to accept challenges totally gimps him. A good opponent can just tie him up with no name Sargents. Also he's screwed if he rolls spawn or prince in the boon table.
Shoot Abbadon. Shoot him again. Then shoot him some more. Assault him with large cheap units to tar pit him. I wonder how many death company and with what combination of fittings it would take to bring him down?
Spartan089 wrote: Too bad Abby is a very lackluster codex, also the rule that forces him to accept challenges totally gimps him. A good opponent can just tie him up with no name sargents. Also he's screwed if he rolls spawn or price in the boon table.
What you do in that case is park Abbadon with a squad of CSM. I perfer plague marines for the blight gernades.
Every turn, challange with the PM champion so Abbadon can do work on the squad itself.
I believe this is best described in the wobbly model syndrome comic
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Evil Lamp 6 wrote: So while dire combat per combat, please rework the numbers and see that Celestine may have what it takes to not only get her lunch money back, but also may take Abbadon's!
Sorry man, Celestine just don't have have the hits. Even if every round she got her HoW and an extra attack from charging, she just does not do enough damage to kill Abbadon.
ICs can be really good at specific roles. Celestine's is finding a lone squad and tearing them to itty bitty pieces. She is the best objective contest-er in the game. She makes a unit of Serephim hell on heels by giving them hit and run.
She is not a huge beatstick by herself though. She will bounce off some ICs like Lysander and Abbadon.
Martel732 wrote: Mephiston can't penetrate 2+ armor and neither can sanguinor actually. All the BA special characters are bad, except maybe Tycho.
That's why I brought up the 2+ save in the OP.
Armor saves and AP values are not like 'to hit' and 'to wound' values. They don't scale linearly.
Instead armor values are an 'all or nothing' value. Your either soaking 66.66% of the damage with your MEQ, or your taking 100% of it.
Cover saves/Invulns simply give your model a lower threshold once the AP is breached. In most cases this new cap is much higher, like 2+/4++. Even a difference of 2+/3++ is literally twice the damage delivered. That's due to the “Rule of Resilience” I talked more about here
As such, any IC sitting with a 2+ save is highly resistant to tons of other ICs in the game. Mephiston may be the lord of death, but hes going to bounce off Ghazghkull until he gets an upgrade to his force sword.
In a similar fashion, AP2 weapons are awesome in the hands of ICs, because they open up that 2+ window. A wolf lord riding a thunderpuppy wielding a LC will be owned by Azrael. Give that same wolf lord a power fist, and suddenly Azrael is not having such a good day.
Spartan089 wrote: Too bad Abby is a very lackluster codex, also the rule that forces him to accept challenges totally gimps him. A good opponent can just tie him up with no name sargents. Also he's screwed if he rolls spawn or price in the boon table.
The overwhelming majority of results on the Boon table are good things...
And he is far from "screwed" if he rolls a prince on the boon table. He is overwhelmingly more likely to take a wound from Drach'nyen than he is to roll a bad result on the boon table, and he is dramatically more likely to get a positive result from rolls on the Chaos boon table. Ergo if you fed him Sergeants all day he'd just get even stronger.
Martel732 wrote: Mephiston can't penetrate 2+ armor and neither can sanguinor actually. All the BA special characters are bad, except maybe Tycho.
That's why I brought up the 2+ save in the OP.
Armor saves and AP values are not like 'to hit' and 'to wound' values. They don't scale linearly.
Instead armor values are an 'all or nothing' value. Your either soaking 66.66% of the damage with your MEQ, or your taking 100% of it.
Cover saves/Invulns simply give your model a lower threshold once the AP is breached. In most cases this new cap is much higher, like 2+/4++. Even a difference of 2+/3++ is literally twice the damage delivered. That's due to the “Rule of Resilience” I talked more about here
As such, any IC sitting with a 2+ save is highly resistant to tons of other ICs in the game. Mephiston may be the lord of death, but hes going to bounce off Ghazghkull until he gets an upgrade to his force sword.
In a similar fashion, AP2 weapons are awesome in the hands of ICs, because they open up that 2+ window. A wolf lord riding a thunderpuppy wielding a LC will be owned by Azrael. Give that same wolf lord a power fist, and suddenly Azrael is not having such a good day.
This is why at 175 pts, Tycho has some utility. He straight up ignores armor. But he's still far down the beat stick list. But he's got sternguard ammo in a combi melta and gives the whole army LD10.
Dark Angels Interrorgator Chaplain
Wargear:
Power Armour/Displacer Field (3+/3++)
Space Marine Bike (T5)
Crozius Arcanum / Mace of Redemption (+3 Str AP3) - Bane of the traitor (AP2 vs CSM), Blind, Concussive.
Shroud of Heroes (FNP)
Digital Weapons (reroll 1 failed wound roll per round of combat ignore this, I've it in the post as the next post comments on it, but it's useless as this guy has preferred enemy csm)
Melta bombs (To pop open his LR and challenge the despoiler)
Porta Rack (So after he kills Abaddon, he gains fear & can use Abaddons teleport homers and locator beacons for the pallbearers)
Frag & Krak grenades
Special rules:
IC, Zealot & Inner Circle (Preferred Enemy CSM / Fearless).
With a lucky warlord roll he'll have furious charge too.
If anyone is counting he's 250 points, without those digital weapons which are useless for him (that does however count the other useless items; melta bombs and porta rack).
MAJOR EDIT: So I had this as a Company Master on bike (with Articifer armour and a storm shield for 2+/3++ at T5) but it was bugging me in my head. So as per my suspicions the company master can't have a bike, which means I've had to change this to an Interrorgator Chaplain as the T5 is kind of key to prevent his ID, I would also note this means that displacer field would make for a really annoying combat if this guy scatters more than 3" away from Abaddon, nevertheless I would run it for the 3++. If that's too complicated he comes with a Rosarius.
Another Contender worth considering would be Sammael. His only real drawbacks being S4 I5. He's got the AP2, a 3+/4++ and would strike with 2CCW for the +1A. Though I doubt Sammy would win really.
....but he still has to watch out for Mindshackle Scarabs!
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW, why shouldn't we include Swarmylord, Crowe, Mephiston and the Sanguinor into this conversation? IC or not, you know we all live for the epic duels between these ultra-badasses. It's like saying Michael Jordan is the best basketball player and I am not including Lebron James because he's only got 1 ring. You know everyone wants to compare James to Jordan.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Its kinda a mote point. How many special charcters would dare to accept challenge from Abaddon? Most would just feed him a sergeant.
The problem is 'what happens after your sergeant is dead?'. Lets say your assaulted by Abbadon + 30 fearless cultists. Your IC will mow through a few cultists. The only good that means is that you can't fall back out of assault as you won the combat! The next round, your IC has to step up to the plate, or hide until the rest of his squad is eaten.
Any character by himself also must accept.
jy2 wrote:BTW, why shouldn't we include Swarmylord, Crowe, Mephiston and the Sanguinor into this conversation? IC or not, you know we all live for the epic duels between these ultra-badasses. It's like saying Michael Jordan is the best basketball player and I am not including Lebron James because he's only got 1 ring. You know everyone wants to compare James to Jordan
Of the non ICs, the swarmlord and black mace CSM will take Abbadons lunch money. Mephiston will bounce off the 2+ armor. Ill check out Sanguinor as well. Crowe's best chance is to use Heroic Sacrifice while hes being gibbed.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Its kinda a mote point. How many special charcters would dare to accept challenge from Abaddon? Most would just feed him a sergeant.
That's why you challenge with your cultist champion and then use abaddon to mow down your opponents squad. Abaddon is a champion of chaos and must always challenge but hes ok with another epic champion such as a cultist champ getting the glory instead, hes a champion of chaos too after all (fairs fair).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sudojoe wrote: My GK liby with warding staff + brain mines + precognition will gladly accept that challenge from abby.
Abadon uses talon of horus S8, Shred, he rerolls 1 to hit you as he has preferred enemy (this assumes you charge him) Attacks 5 Hits 3.333333333 Rerolled 1s that hit 0.555555556 Total Hits 3.888888889 Wounds 3.240740741 Rerolled 1s when wounding 0.540123457 Total wounds 3.780864198 Instagibbs 0.630144033
So on average you are going to get instagibbed by his S8 talon in turn 2 of the challenge despite your 2+ invulnerable.
Precognition is 1 ability in 6 so relying on that seems like a bad idea. At that point your more likely to kill yourself with perils than die to melee attacks.
Which is better against abaddon? (by this I mean last longer - not win. Wondering about the best character to try and sandbag him with for the eldar)
A corsair prince with a 2++
Or eldrad with a 3++
(with fortune)
Would Yriel do enough damage to be worth a random charge?
He's I7 with damage on a 2+ that ignores armour saves. Again with fortune.
We already know the Avatar would go down, the only phoenix with an inv only has ap3.
The only AP2 I7 character after that is Fuegan, and he doesn't get anywhere near doing much to abaddon because he's got 4 attacks base.
I1 lets Karandras down.
And by the looks of this, we can't ally in anyone to beat him up for us. So far it's only nids and chaos that'll take him.
Abadon uses talon of horus S8, Shred, he rerolls 1 to hit you as he has preferred enemy (this assumes you charge him)
Attacks 5
Hits 3.333333333
Rerolled 1s that hit 0.555555556
Total Hits 3.888888889
Wounds 3.240740741
Rerolled 1s when wounding 0.540123457
Total wounds 3.780864198
Instagibbs 0.630144033
So on average you are going to get instagibbed by his S8 talon in turn 2 of the challenge despite your 2+ invulnerable.
Precognition is 1 ability in 6 so relying on that seems like a bad idea. At that point your more likely to kill yourself with perils than die to melee attacks.
even with 1/6 chance, you are allowed to make him a psyker lv 3, so you can get a few tries at least for the power. 16.64% per dice, roll 3, have 50% ish chance to get the power.
we're using theoritical fights here so I'm assuming I already have precognition while challenging or I'd not bother of course. Also, brain mines will potentially cause abby to not even attack at all kind of like a MSS but doesn't make him hit himself. I think that'd up my chances at least a bit.
The thread is about who can beat abaddon. Post something that can and people may respond.
Against the DA chaplain you listed, Abby hits first with 5-11 +2 when charging, +1 when charged ap-2 attacks with preferred enemy against him that hit on 3's.... Not looking good for the DA
I'm not so hot on maths, I just wondered would a 2++ save last longer than a 3++ with re-rolls against him?
Yes, a 2++ is means 5/6 wounds are ignored a 3++ (rerollable) means 8/9 wounds are ignored. BarBoBot, understanding the different types of saves may help him identify a candidate.
BarBoBot wrote: The thread is about who can beat abaddon. Post something that can and people may respond.
Against the DA chaplain you listed, Abby hits first with 5-11 +2 when charging, +1 when charged ap-2 attacks with preferred enemy against him that hit on 3's.... Not looking good for the DA
Well the guy has T5 to prevent ID. He has a 3++ with FNP. He strikes back with 4S7 AP2 with blind and concussive. Blind won't affect abby often, concussive will. Also Hated, Prefered Enemy. If he survives 1 round, which I think he would there's a decent chance he'll strike first thereafter & if he strikes first there's a 1/6 chance for abby to be WS1 when he strikes back & another phase or 2 (blind lasts until the end of the blinded players next turn) after that.
Edit: @BarBoBot I don't appreciate your lackluster attitude, I posted it because it can work, you've no need to be so rude.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What about Logan Grimnar?
Dante's still a lame tool for 225pts. No EW, unwieldy weapon, etc. I used him a few times in 5th and he always got power fisted to death. I don't see how that's changed in 6th. Did I mention *225* points?
I think it's fair to say no IC can beat Abbadon down.
How would you take out Abbadon with the bare minimum number of IC, that can ally together? Remember Abbadon is going to challenge one of your characters and you will have to deny so the other ICs you brought can beat him up together. So I am thinking some combination of either redundant ICs so for any lone IC singled out there is another one or two that are still fighting. Or you could take a combination of ICs (special IC) who are all badasses so Abbadon will have to choose each round who he is going to make cower in he back. We know Abbadon is top dog, what I want to know is the degree of his badassery. I am guessing he's gonna take out a character or two a turn while taking a wound or two in return. Assume no other squad members for either side. Think Justice league vs Doomsday!
Martel732 wrote: Dante's still a lame tool for 225pts. No EW, unwieldy weapon, etc. I used him a few times in 5th and he always got power fisted to death. I don't see how that's changed in 6th. Did I mention *225* points?
moving towards a world where only 1 character per codex has EW. The Sanguior has EW, so Dante does not.
DE only 1 EW DA only 1 EW BA only 1 EW CSM only 1 EW IG only 1 EW Orkz only 1 EW Newcrons only 1 EW GK only 1 EW
people whine and whine about how this and that doesnt have EW. It is supposed to be a rare special rule. If every character had it, then ID would be useless.
How would you take out Abbadon with the bare minimum number of IC, that can ally together? Remember Abbadon is going to challenge one of your characters and you will have to deny so the other ICs you brought can beat him up together. So I am thinking some combination of either redundant ICs so for any lone IC singled out there is another one or two that are still fighting. Or you could take a combination of ICs (special IC) who are all badasses so Abbadon will have to choose each round who he is going to make cower in he back. We know Abbadon is top dog, what I want to know is the degree of his badassery. I am guessing he's gonna take out a character or two a turn while taking a wound or two in return. Assume no other squad members for either side. Think Justice league vs Doomsday!
vect in an allied eldar unit with fortune might work. He will put out a ton of wounds and abby will fail his 2+ save before vect fails his 2++ rerollable.
Im sure there are many many other combinations. 2vs1 it should be easy to bring anything down.
Tiarna Fuilteach wrote: If they do hold only one EW per codex poor lysander...as there is no way they are going to take it away from big papa smurf
well C:SM is special. It also has more special characters than any other codex. Chaos players are really pissed right now. Most of them know they will never get 5 codexes like IoM for BA, GK, DA, SW, and BT but they did want the special treatment that C:SM got. More choices, more SC, more fluff because it represents more than 1 legion. In a perfect world CSM, C:SM and IG would be special long codexes and all others would be slightly less. We will see what happens when C:SM gets redone.
Martel732 wrote: Dante's still a lame tool for 225pts. No EW, unwieldy weapon, etc. I used him a few times in 5th and he always got power fisted to death. I don't see how that's changed in 6th. Did I mention *225* points?
moving towards a world where only 1 character per codex has EW. The Sanguior has EW, so Dante does not.
DE only 1 EW DA only 1 EW BA only 1 EW CSM only 1 EW IG only 1 EW Orkz only 1 EW Newcrons only 1 EW GK only 1 EW
people whine and whine about how this and that doesnt have EW. It is supposed to be a rare special rule. If every character had it, then ID would be useless.
Lol - I hope not... it's all that keeps my phoenix lords alive.
Please find attatched a spreadsheet for fighting abbadon.
1. Enter your stats
2. Set TRUE/FALSE depending on whether you get to reroll your armour & invuln saves
3. Ensure your S is the S of your weapon (not you)
4. If you are not an enternal warrior and have T4 then set your W to 1
5. If your weapon ignores armour saves enter it as AP 1
6. If your weapon has no AP set it to 7
7. If you have rerolls to hit or wound copy the formula in B20 into your box entitled "Failed Hits converted to success " (or wound)
8. If you are not a marine set B14 and C14 to 0
9. See how many turns it takes for Abaddon to kill you, if you take more you loose!
Notes:
Abaddon gets 4 attacks + 1 for having 2 specialist weapons (as I understand it, if not just adjust his attacks at the top_
Abaddons gets 3.5 bonus attacks from his daemon weapon, if you want to change it to 3 or other things just adjust his attacks at the top
The formula in B14 takes into account only rerolling 1s not hatred (since hatred is first round only)
wtnind wrote: Please find attatched a spreadsheet for fighting abbadon.
1. Enter your stats
2. Set TRUE/FALSE depending on whether you get to reroll your armour & invuln saves
3. Ensure your S is the S of your weapon (not you)
4. If you are not an enternal warrior and have T4 then set your W to 1
5. If your weapon ignores armour saves enter it as AP 1
6. If your weapon has no AP set it to 7
7. If you have rerolls to hit or wound copy the formula in B20 into your box entitled "Failed Hits converted to success " (or wound)
8. If you are not a marine set B14 and C14 to 0
9. See how many turns it takes for Abaddon to kill you, if you take more you loose!
Notes:
Abaddon gets 4 attacks + 1 for having 2 specialist weapons (as I understand it, if not just adjust his attacks at the top_
Abaddons gets 3.5 bonus attacks from his daemon weapon, if you want to change it to 3 or other things just adjust his attacks at the top
The formula in B14 takes into account only rerolling 1s not hatred (since hatred is first round only)
Please feel free to double check my maths.
According to this spreadsheet, a Wolf Lord with Thunderwolf Mount, TH, SS, WTN, and Saga of the Bear will kill Abbadon in 2.88 turns, while Abbadon will kill the Wolf Lord in 2.72 turns. But if you change out Saga of the Bear for Saga of the Beastslayer, then the Wolf Lord gets the kill in 2.16 turns.
If you trade in codex powers (given on some models, not on others), and if you roll on Biomancy (again, given for some models) and if you roll Iron Arm and if you cast it.
That's a lot of ifs. And are there no other Psykers that can get Biomancy in the other codexes?
Martel732 wrote: Dante's still a lame tool for 225pts. No EW, unwieldy weapon, etc. I used him a few times in 5th and he always got power fisted to death. I don't see how that's changed in 6th. Did I mention *225* points?
moving towards a world where only 1 character per codex has EW. The Sanguior has EW, so Dante does not.
DE only 1 EW DA only 1 EW BA only 1 EW CSM only 1 EW IG only 1 EW Orkz only 1 EW Newcrons only 1 EW GK only 1 EW
The Sanguinor is an even bigger waste of points than Dante; I'd rather he not exist and give Dante the EW. Not being able to join a squad = horrible death by frickin boltguns or lasguns. And he can't even touch enemies in 2+ armor, so why bother with him?
If you trade in codex powers (given on some models, not on others), and if you roll on Biomancy (again, given for some models) and if you roll Iron Arm and if you cast it.
That's a lot of ifs. And are there no other Psykers that can get Biomancy in the other codexes?
I said "up to" which is accurate. You said "0" which isn't.
Are you honestly not seeing Tyranids sell out everything for the Biomancy table? If so, you should tell them to start. Also, Swarmlord gets 4 powers. That's a pretty good chance right there.
A chaos lord of khorne on a juggernaught (+1A, +1T, +1W) with the axe of blind fury (and sigil) will kill abaddon in 2.823 turns on average Abaddon will take 2.468 turns with his talon or 2.823 turns with sword
So you are more likely to loose than to win but not by much.
Attacks 8.5 (3 attacks +1 for 2 weapons + 3.5 average from sword) WS 5 S 6 T 5 W 4 Save 3 Invuln 4 Rerolls saves! 0 AP 2
True. Now could you go correct all the other codexes - I'm sure someone else has access to Biomancy.
Are you honestly not seeing Tyranids sell out everything for the Biomancy table? If so, you should tell them to start. Also, Swarmlord gets 4 powers. That's a pretty good chance right there.
Every game I play I have 2 Flyrants and 2 Tervigons grabbing Biomancy, and Doom does about 75% of the time (if there's a LR I'll keep his codex power). edit: But I do see a lot of people running mass Zoeys and going some Telepathy in addition to Biomancy.
Taking the Swarmlord means I don't get a Flyrant. I'd rather have the Flyrant in many cases. Especially since Swarm + Guard + Prime is basically the required unit and it's barely cheaper than dual Flyrants.
Canuckish wrote: It has already been said, but it bears repeating.
Old Zogwort, will solo Abbadon... that old cook is an IC Squiging Machine., then the duel is a job after
I once played against Zogwort. My necron D-lord survived 4 turns of Zogwort trying to squigify him, even surviving after Zogwort rolled 6's twice! Lol.
I noticed earlier that someone said Imperial characters aren't as good at fighting as their traitor and xenos counter parts, that is true, but I feel that the strength of imperial characters lies in their synergy with armies rather than sheer killing power, that said has anyone tested abbadon vs logan grimnar?
Logan has 6 (with counter attack) powerfist or frost blade attacks that hit on 3's with preferred enemy and a 2+/4++
EmilCrane wrote: I noticed earlier that someone said Imperial characters aren't as good at fighting as their traitor and xenos counter parts, that is true, but I feel that the strength of imperial characters lies in their synergy with armies rather than sheer killing power, that said has anyone tested abbadon vs logan grimnar?
Logan has 6 (with counter attack) powerfist or frost blade attacks that hit on 3's with preferred enemy and a 2+/4++
Abaddon will still have the advantage with higher WS, higher I, more attacks, Prefered Enemy as well and 1 more Wound.
EmilCrane wrote: I noticed earlier that someone said Imperial characters aren't as good at fighting as their traitor and xenos counter parts, that is true, but I feel that the strength of imperial characters lies in their synergy with armies rather than sheer killing power, that said has anyone tested abbadon vs logan grimnar?
Logan has 6 (with counter attack) powerfist or frost blade attacks that hit on 3's with preferred enemy and a 2+/4++
Abaddon will still have the advantage with higher WS, higher I, more attacks, Prefered Enemy as well and 1 more Wound.
Grimnar can give himself Preferred Enemy, and they both hit on 3's (one of those space wolf special items)
EmilCrane wrote: I noticed earlier that someone said Imperial characters aren't as good at fighting as their traitor and xenos counter parts, that is true, but I feel that the strength of imperial characters lies in their synergy with armies rather than sheer killing power, that said has anyone tested abbadon vs logan grimnar?
Logan has 6 (with counter attack) powerfist or frost blade attacks that hit on 3's with preferred enemy and a 2+/4++
Abaddon will still have the advantage with higher WS, higher I, more attacks, Prefered Enemy as well and 1 more Wound.
Grimnar can give himself Preferred Enemy, and they both hit on 3's (one of those space wolf special items)
Ok....Abaddon should still win that battle with higher I, more attacks, Prefered Enemy as well and 1 more Wound.
For his points a preheresy Legion Praetor wouldn't be a bad matchup, only problem is the praetor is not EW.
With digital lasers, a master crafted Paragon Blade (which is not unwieldy but is +1 Str and Ap2) he would have 5 attacks, 6 on the charge. Add in an iron Halo and he is a bargain for 180pts. Oh an against non EWICs the paragon blade can instagib on a 6
Are you sure? Vect can't pen Abbadons 2+ save, I'd imagine Vect would fail a single 2++, even with fortune, before He could chew through all of Abbys wounds.
Are you sure? Vect can't pen Abbadons 2+ save, I'd imagine Vect would fail a single 2++, even with fortune, before He could chew through all of Abbys wounds.
Unless I'm missing something here.
Good point. Forgot he was AP3. In that case, most likely they'll be stuck in combat for a long time....at least until the Harliestar hit-&-runs out of there.
If Abbadon's weapons do not have armourbane, then I think Bjorn the Fell-Handed will likely keep his lunch money. AV 13, Venerable and a 5++ make Bjorn pretty tough to bring down in CC without the armourbane rule. I suspect that he simply doesn't have enough attacks to win, though.
I know he's not an IC, but it's still an interesting matchup.
And Lukas the Trickster will get ruined by Abbadon, but he's tricky like that.
Ninjacommando wrote: hmm how would shas'O R'alai go against him just kiting him around?
and does the Mephiston fight include biomancy rolls?
He'd still have nothing to penetrate Abaddon's AP2, and Biomancy could get you Ironarm or it could get you Leech Life, which is useless for a fight against Abaddon in close combat.
He's expensive but his points are worth it when used correctly.
His ability to give friendly units within 12 Preffered enemy (space marine) is potent, it makes even a cultist a threat in CC.
I've seen SM armies be teared a new one from this ability alone.
Ninjacommando wrote: hmm how would shas'O R'alai go against him just kiting him around?
and does the Mephiston fight include biomancy rolls?
If we are including shooting him to death at range, there'd be a lot more guys on the list.
Samael on his bike would kill him quite easily while leaving Abby in the dust for example.
This. No matter how many times Abaddon beats her down, eventually, she'll get lucky and take him down.
In a real game it'll never happen, sure, but if we're going to act like raw, one-on-one combat potential is what makes an HQ, then clearly we're working in a combat vacuum. And in a combat vacuum time is no factor, so that makes Celestine the best HQ in the game, since only one HQ can kill her for good (Zogwort), and only a handful can't be killed by her (Bjorn, and maybe a couple other vehicles).
By the same metric and logic, Justicar Thawn must be the best Troops unit in the game. In fact, he must be even better than Celestine, because he can't be squigged by Zogwort!
Or, we can accept that maybe, just maybe, we should focus on the actual capability of the unit to contribute in a real game, in which case, combat potential is but one of several factors dictating the usefulness of a unit. In fact, I would argue that combat potential is one of the least important things about an HQ. There are many ways to get hard-hitting units. There are comparably few ways to get the support and force-multiplication capabilities that the truly good HQs offer.
Dose this mean a Necron Overlord with 2+/3++/4+++ from a Res Orb, MSS and Phaeron in a Blob backed by an arc is the best HQ in the game, for making that blob relentless, andgiving it 4+ res, and just being generally epic.
IHateNids wrote: Dose this mean a Necron Overlord with 2+/3++/4+++ from a Res Orb, MSS and Phaeron in a Blob backed by an arc is the best HQ in the game, for making that blob relentless, andgiving it 4+ res, and just being generally epic.
I don't think giving a blob relentless actually does anything.
I ran the calculator with my GK librarian with precognition and warding staff vs abby and indeed, abby will win according to the calc.
Abby wins after 11.9 rounds with the talon and claw will take like 17.357 rounds apparently (not sure if I'm doing the daemon weapon right here but anyone in their right mind would be using the talon anyway so it's a moot point)
It'll take me 25.92 rounds to kill abby.
on the flip side, I can probably add in abby will likely fail his leadership roughly 50% of the time with Ld 10 vs 3d6 on the brain mines so that should almost double the number of rounds it will take him to kill. So it'll end up being some crazy 23.8 rounds of combat to beat down the libraraian. I'll proabably have to deduct a few rounds just for failing the psychic tests so probably closer to 19-20 rounds on average.
Ya, game would be long over even if they got into it by turn 1.
So Bring it Abby! It'll be past the parent teacher meeting before you get my lunch money wmahahahahaha.
EmilCrane wrote: I noticed earlier that someone said Imperial characters aren't as good at fighting as their traitor and xenos counter parts, that is true, but I feel that the strength of imperial characters lies in their synergy with armies rather than sheer killing power, that said has anyone tested abbadon vs logan grimnar?
Logan has 6 (with counter attack) powerfist or frost blade attacks that hit on 3's with preferred enemy and a 2+/4++
Abbadon Vs Logan Grimnar Logan has one of the key elements to be a nasty IC - he has a 2+ save and a power fist. Logan has EW, 5 attacks, perferred enemy, 4++ with the Belt of Russ. Logan also always hits on 3s, due to the wolftooth necklace. Logan will pop his ability "Living Legend" on the turn he is assaulted to ensure he gets that extra attack, so he will have 7 attacks on the first round!
Since the "Talon of Horus" will not insta-kill and he will get his 2+. Drach'nyen will used to force Logan to his 4++ save. In this case Abbadon will want to rely upon Drach'nyen to do double the normal damage output.
Logan wil need to use "The Axe Morkai" in power fist mode. He cannot afford to give a 2+ save against his attacks.
Abbadon using "Drach'nyen":
WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 77.77% chance to hit (with perferred enemy)
S 5 vs. T4 = 77.77% chance to wound (with perferred enemy)
Logan has a 4++ save = 50.00% chance to get through, and
Abbadon hits 83.33% of the time on the first round of assault due to hatred.
Abbadon has rage, so gets 7 attacks on the first round of combat.
On a roll of 1, the daemon weapon reduces WS to 1, and wounds Abbadon.
38.90% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 5 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.13, plus
77.77% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 7 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.35, plus
77.77% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 8 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.40, plus
77.77% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 9 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.45, plus
77.77% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.50, plus
77.77% × 77.77% × 50.00% × 11 attacks × 16.67% = 0.55 equals ~2.39 unsaved wounds on rounds 2+
Logan will die on round 1 before he can even swing his unwieldy weapon.
Logan:
WolfTooth Necklace = 77.77% chance to hit (with perferred enemy)
S 8 vs. T5 = 86.33% chance to wound (increased to 97.22% with perferred enemy),
Abbadon has a 4++ save = 50.00% chance to get through, and
77.77% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 7 attacks = ~2.19 unsaved wounds first turn.
77.77% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 2 attacks = ~1.56 unsaved wounds on rounds 2+
Abbadon will die on round 3 of the assault.
Results Logan has an suprising amount of damage output. He will kill Abbadon on turn 3 on average dice rolls.
The problem Logan has is that he likely won't live to see round 3. On average dice rolls Abbadon will kill Logan before Logan can swing!
How is this possible? Logan's biggest weakness is that he has only 3 wounds and a 4++ save. Having 1 less wound than Abbadon means he dies 25% faster. While he has a ton of attacks, he does not match Abbadon's raw damage output.
Oh yes, and Logan costs 10 more points than Abbadon....
I play DA and have found that throwing my HQs at Abby to be pretty suicidal. At least if they're alone... The new Belial with a thunderhammer/stormshield is kind of like Lysandor in being able to go toe to toe with tough as nails ICs like Abbadon, though not consistently.
So rather than throwing my HQ alone at Abbadon I add a Librarian in terminator armor to the command squad and roll on telepathy. If I get invisibility I end up with an HQ squad that's invisible, making Abbadon's weapon skill useless in the face of my now InvisiBelial in a challenge. This is real gimmicky but doing this made our LGS Chaos Abby player rethink his primary HQ choice... Up to then he'd been used to curb stomping opponent HQs but he was putting a lot of points into Abby, terminators, and a landraider. Abbadon still has a metric ton of attacks and wounds very easily, he just suddenly has a problem landing hits since he'll need a 5+ to hit in this situation.
I realize this thread is about Abbadon taking other IC's lunch money one on one so I apologize if using an HQ combo is out of the bounds, but why would I ever willingly throw an HQ into that meat grinder alone? Or allow Abbadon to get that close to my units at all? If I can shoot him to death I'd rather do that, or tar pit him, or as above; use a gimmick to trick the player into an assault he thinks he'll auto win and then yell "surprise your weapon skill is 1 while in combat with that squad!"
BenchianFingers wrote: n.I realize this thread is about Abbadon taking other IC's lunch money one on one so I apologize if using an HQ combo is out of the bounds, but why would I ever willingly throw an HQ into that meat grinder alone? Or allow Abbadon to get that close to my units at all? If I can shoot him to death I'd rather do that, or tar pit him, or as above; use a gimmick to trick the player into an assault he thinks he'll auto win and then yell "surprise your weapon skill is 1 while in combat with that squad!"
Opening up multiple ICs changes the equasion for many other ICs. What happens if Abbadon has a level 3 sorc helping him out by casting weakness on Belial? Giving 'combos' to one side but not the other is not fair.
The point of the thread is also not to say 'Abbadon will curb stop other ICs'. A smart reader will look at this and discover why Abbadon will take most other ICs lunch money. Looking at that, you can find a way to make your IC have the same benefits and become much more deadly in assault.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
azazel the cat wrote: If Abbadon's weapons do not have armourbane, then I think Bjorn the Fell-Handed will likely keep his lunch money. AV 13, Venerable and a 5++ make Bjorn pretty tough to bring down in CC without the armourbane rule. I suspect that he simply doesn't have enough attacks to win, though..
Abbadon Vs Bjorn Bjorn has AV 13, WS 6, STR 10, and 4 attacks per turn. He seems like a very dangerous matchup.
Lets see how it does.
Abbadon using "Talon of Horus":
WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 66.66% chance to hit
S 8 vs. AV13 = 33.33% chance to knock off hull point.
Abbadon has rage, so gets 7 attacks on the first round of combat.
Bjorn has a 5++ save, with 3 hull points.
66.66% × 33.33% × 66.66% × 7 attacks = ~1.03 Hull Points Knocked Off Round one
66.66% × 50.00% × 66.66% × 5 attacks = ~.74 unsaved wounds on the next rounds.
On round 4 Bjorn will die from hull point loss
Bjorn using DCCW:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit
S 10 vs. T5 = 83.33% chance to knock off hull point.
Abbadon has a 4++ save = 50% chance to get through, and
Bjorn has a 5++ save, with 3 hull points.
50.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 4 attacks = ~.83 wounds per turn
Abbadon will die on turn 5.
Results Bjorn will lose this battle. This was only counting hull point loss, and not even counting penetrating hits. To make matters worse, Bjorn does not have extra armor, so any 'stunned' result would result in Bjorn not attacking that round. Bjorn also risks losing his weapon.
Without those factors, I would say that its a fairly close matchup (being within 1 round) but with those factors, I think Abbadon has the edge in this duel.
A real good point and I'm not trying to detract from the original intent of the thread of hypothetical one on one fights between HQs but in most practical cases the HQs wouldn't make it to combat if they were completely alone with no squad or delivery method at least other than footslog... they almost always come with a command squad or something beefy to back them up plus a delivery method; landraider, rhino, drop pod, deathwing assault, or real brave footslogging. So they're already not alone.
In my case a Deathwing Command squad with the Deathwing banner and an apothecary. That alone changes the fight between Belial and Abbadon. Even if the squad isn't involved in the challenge they're still there and the banner and FnP count on Belial while in the challenge with Abbadon.
In my situation the Abby player never brought a second HQ due to the cost of his HQ, the unit attached, and their landraider. Knowing this I capitalized and took the second HQ to improve my own chances. Surely he could have taken a sorcerer too but up to then he'd had a pretty high success rate with just Abbadon so I'm sure from his point of view it wouldn't have made a difference. I don't let HQs like Vecht or Abbadon get close enough to bully my units if I can help it.
From a one on one view yes Abbadon > Belial almost every time and from a point cost he absolutely should. Abbadon has more attacks, higher initiative, and a higher weapon skill. They both have four wounds, eternal warrior, but Belial (can) have better saves and a weapon that hits at str 10 AP 2, which if he survives the first wave of attacks from Abby stand a good chance of overcoming his 4+ invul save. However the point I'm trying to make is that going into that assault Belial is going to have +1 attack and FnP from the get go. This buff to the HQ is only accomplished via a command squad. So adding something else to the command squad like a Librarian is just gravy and can add additional effects to further buff the entire unit. Such as telepathy granting invisibility to the entire squad.
The point of the thread is also not to say 'Abbadon will curb stop other ICs'. A smart reader will look at this and discover why Abbadon will take most other ICs lunch money. Looking at that, you can find a way to make your IC have the same benefits and become much more deadly in assault.
A smart player isn't going to throw their HQ that can't hold up against Abbadon against Abbadon alone if they can help it. Unless it's a stop gap method to slow Abbadon down or something. I'm certainly open to suggestions to making a named HQ that costs 190 points (that can't buy a bunch of shnazzy wargear & relics) more deadly in the assault against an HQ that costs 275 points that doesn't involve outside intervention from other units in the army.
DarknessEternal wrote: Swarmlord. The only thing with a chance against the Swarmlord in a duel has Mindshackle Scarabs, and none of those guys are Eternal Warriors, so even they don't have a very good chance.
BenchianFingers wrote: I'm certainly open to suggestions to making a named HQ that costs 190 points (that can't buy a bunch of shnazzy wargear & relics) more deadly in the assault against an HQ that costs 275 points that doesn't involve outside intervention from other units in the army.
Abbadon is 265. Logan is 275. Abbadon is only 75 more points than Belail.
Your missing the point. You can make an IC that's very effective for less. Sure it won't kill Abbadon -- but he can do good against a lot of other ICs.
Let me illustrate what makes an 'IC excellent in challanges'
2+ Armor Save Most ICs in the game have AP3 weapons. In fact, you are more pressed to find AP2 weapons on special ICs than you might think. The DA book has none, for example. The DE book has one - and he can only join incubi squads. The SW book has two, and one of them is a dread.
Given this, any time you can have a 2+ save for an IC, its a huge advantage. This means that anybody with an AP3 weapon -- which is most named characters -- will just bounce off you. Mephison is a hell of a lot less scary if hes just scratching away at your 2+ armor save!
Therefore, when making your own ICs (lords, captains, etc) any time you can give a 2+ save its worth it. Artificer armor is the best way to do this, as terminator armor prevents sweeping -- but even terminator armor is better than no 2+ save.
AP2 weapon On the same token, a lot of ICs do have artificer armor/terminator armor. The DA book has 3 of them, for example.
In order to combat this, you want to ensure your IC has the ability to deliver AP2 attacks when required. This can be done through a PF or power axe.
If you can force someone to go from a 2+ save to a 4++ save, you have increased your damage output by 250%.
Invlun ICs with low invulns do not survive long. You want your IC to be toting at least a 4++ when possible. A 3++ is even better.
There is a reason that Mephiston is now the BA whipping boy. The lack of invuln save means he gets punked by any normal IC with artificer armor and a power fist.
Doubling Out / EW Being able to double out ICs is really valueable. This is why I mentioned the PF earlier. This means that if your facing an enemy IC like Vect - one failed save means its good game.
What this means is that anyone without EW effectivly only has 1 wound from high str weapons. Even if your getting less total 'attacks' with your high STR weapon, your still doing more damage because you only need to do 1 wound to finish the fight.
At worst this means they die 100% faster (2 wounds) At worst they are dying 400% faster (4 wounds)
FNP Any IC with FNP has significant boosts.
What makes FNP so good is that its an extra layer of defense. Any time you pick up those dice and reroll, more will fall through.
That's why a MEQ bolter is only has a 4/27 (14.8%) chance to kill a MEQ.
2/3 (to hit) * 2/3 (to wound) * 1/3 (failed save)
By forcing these dice to be picked up and rerolled your dramatically decreasing the total possible successes.
Lets show you how this works in action. Lets take a PG shot. Since they deny saves, they have a 4/9 chance to kill a MEQ. This is a 44.44%
2/3 (to hit) * 2/3 (to wound)
Now if you add in that 5++ FNP, the chances change to this.
2/3 (to hit) * 2/3 (to wound) * 2/3 (failed FNP)
The total is 2/9 or 29.62% to kill.
That's right. A 1/3 FNP save literally decreases the chances to kill by from ~45% to ~30%. That's significant!
How does this apply to ICs? Well, anytime your IC can get a FNP their survivability increases. Some ICs have this by default -- like Typhus, while others can get it from an apothicary.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
XT-1984 wrote: What about a Daemon Prince with the Murder Sword?
This was covered earlier with a black mace -- which is better than the murder sword. Look at the OP and you will see that the DP can take abbadon's lunch money.
Except at T4 you get no FNP. Belial would need to be with death knights and in btb contact with them to bring his T up to 5. It's still iffy.
This is a real good point and the FnP would be negated, but the +1 A from the banner would still apply and that still changes the potential outcome of the challenge. It's also still an outside modifier that Belial only gets when attached to the command squad.
Another way to think about this might be how to prevent Abbadon from taking your lunch at or below his point value.
So what would I bring for an IC to make him do well?
For SW, I would bring this
Wolf Lord
- Runic Armor
- Belt of Russ
- Saga of Bear
- Power Fist
- Wolf Claw
That's a 225 point IC that will take most other ICs lunch money.
He can either swing five STR 8 AP2 attacks, or 5 STR 4 attacks that reroll to wound. He has a 2+/4++.
Edit : Putting him onto a thunderwolf also helps greatly. At that point I would consider replacing the claw for a SS and dropping Saga of the Bear. Not many ICs have STR 10.
Your missing the point. You can make an IC that's very effective for less. Sure it won't kill Abbadon -- but he can do good against a lot of other ICs.
Let me illustrate what makes an 'IC excellent in challanges'
I see the point I'm just being oppositional defiant... It's too early and I haven't had my coffee. It's still a fun mental exercise. I'll conede that I'm definitely off topic; arguing a different view point entirely.
Except at T4 you get no FNP. Belial would need to be with death knights and in btb contact with them to bring his T up to 5. It's still iffy.
This is a real good point and the FnP would be negated, but the +1 A from the banner would still apply and that still changes the potential outcome of the challenge. It's also still an outside modifier that Belial only gets when attached to the command squad.
Another way to think about this might be how to prevent Abbadon from taking your lunch at or below his point value.
By adding that, you could take Abbadon with FNP banner from slaanesh troops.
BenchianFingers wrote: n.I realize this thread is about Abbadon taking other IC's lunch money one on one so I apologize if using an HQ combo is out of the bounds, but why would I ever willingly throw an HQ into that meat grinder alone? Or allow Abbadon to get that close to my units at all? If I can shoot him to death I'd rather do that, or tar pit him, or as above; use a gimmick to trick the player into an assault he thinks he'll auto win and then yell "surprise your weapon skill is 1 while in combat with that squad!"
Opening up multiple ICs changes the equasion for many other ICs. What happens if Abbadon has a level 3 sorc helping him out by casting weakness on Belial? Giving 'combos' to one side but not the other is not fair.
The point of the thread is also not to say 'Abbadon will curb stop other ICs'. A smart reader will look at this and discover why Abbadon will take most other ICs lunch money. Looking at that, you can find a way to make your IC have the same benefits and become much more deadly in assault.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
azazel the cat wrote: If Abbadon's weapons do not have armourbane, then I think Bjorn the Fell-Handed will likely keep his lunch money. AV 13, Venerable and a 5++ make Bjorn pretty tough to bring down in CC without the armourbane rule. I suspect that he simply doesn't have enough attacks to win, though..
Abbadon Vs Bjorn Bjorn has AV 13, WS 6, STR 10, and 4 attacks per turn. He seems like a very dangerous matchup.
Lets see how it does.
Abbadon using "Talon of Horus":
WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 66.66% chance to hit
S 8 vs. AV13 = 33.33% chance to knock off hull point.
Abbadon has rage, so gets 7 attacks on the first round of combat.
Bjorn has a 5++ save, with 3 hull points.
66.66% × 33.33% × 66.66% × 7 attacks = ~1.03 Hull Points Knocked Off Round one
66.66% × 50.00% × 66.66% × 5 attacks = ~.74 unsaved wounds on the next rounds.
On round 4 Bjorn will die from hull point loss
Bjorn using DCCW:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit
S 10 vs. T5 = 83.33% chance to knock off hull point.
Abbadon has a 4++ save = 50% chance to get through, and
Bjorn has a 5++ save, with 3 hull points.
50.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 4 attacks = ~.83 wounds per turn
Abbadon will die on turn 5.
Results Bjorn will lose this battle. This was only counting hull point loss, and not even counting penetrating hits. To make matters worse, Bjorn does not have extra armor, so any 'stunned' result would result in Bjorn not attacking that round. Bjorn also risks losing his weapon.
Without those factors, I would say that its a fairly close matchup (being within 1 round) but with those factors, I think Abbadon has the edge in this duel.
abby hates and has PE space wolves, so he will kill Bjorn faster
I'm happy enough just tarpitting abby for 20 turns, good enough by my book for a cheaper IC. Leaves me more points to blow up the rest of the stuff around.
I just have to last long enough that the principal comes along to take care of abby the bully for me wmahahahaha.
Exergy wrote: abby hates and has PE space wolves, so he will kill Bjorn faster
Does that count?
I thought it was "space marines" and infantry/calvary models only. I did not think it would work vs a dread.
If it does, then your right, Bjorn will fall even faster.
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sudojoe wrote: I'm happy enough just tarpitting abby for 20 turns, good enough by my book for a cheaper IC. Leaves me more points to blow up the rest of the stuff around.
I just have to last long enough that the principal comes along to take care of abby the bully for me wmahahahaha.
Now the question is -- will you be bringing that librarian in your all-comers list?
Im pretty sure PE works against anything from any SM dex.
So no matter what slot, its all SM at the end of the day and you will still be rerolling 1's.
sudojoe wrote:
I'm happy enough just tarpitting abby for 20 turns, good enough by my book for a cheaper IC. Leaves me more points to blow up the rest of the stuff around.
I just have to last long enough that the principal comes along to take care of abby the bully for me wmahahahaha.
Now the question is -- will you be bringing that librarian in your all-comers list?
The liby is kind of useful still as a buffing unit for other stuff even if there was no super challenge. I generally get him with the codex power and just give up 5 points to be flexible in case I'm just using him for stealth + reinfoced ruins combo to give alot of units a 2+ cover or 3+ cover behind an aegis vs using him to engage in close combat so he can support my henchmen gunlines and or go on the attack with purifiers in a land raider. (yes the land raider in this case would have 2+ cover in a ruins so it's a big boat lol)
The liby build I typically use is actually the one I modeled in this case example which is kind of why I figured he'd do just fine accepting abby's challenge. ( in this showcase fight though I'd have made him lv 3 just to up to 48% chance to get precognition)
see the HQ section, it's kind of been one of my standard liby's in 6th (when we still did some assaults, now I've moved onto quite a few more DK+ gunline builds I may bring him back for some fun as I'm retooling trying to figure out how to beat the CSM noisemarine + heldrake spam now or w/e the new upcomming tau/eldar will bring (which I also play so I fight myself quite a bit lol)
Incidentially having the liby in a squad with the right orientation, I can tank a heldrake for the squad as he'll eat all the AP3 wounds on his termy armor before anyone in the squad will die to AP3 ignore cover flamers or blast masters so he's even a bit more useful there.
Exergy wrote: abby hates and has PE space wolves, so he will kill Bjorn faster
Does that count?
I thought it was "space marines" and infantry/calvary models only. I did not think it would work vs a dread.
If it does, then your right, Bjorn will fall even faster.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sudojoe wrote: I'm happy enough just tarpitting abby for 20 turns, good enough by my book for a cheaper IC. Leaves me more points to blow up the rest of the stuff around.
I just have to last long enough that the principal comes along to take care of abby the bully for me wmahahahaha.
Now the question is -- will you be bringing that librarian in your all-comers list?
not limited to infantry / calvary and there is a note in the dex that SM includes BA, DA, GK, C:SM, SW yadda yadda.
BenchianFingers wrote: n.I realize this thread is about Abbadon taking other IC's lunch money one on one so I apologize if using an HQ combo is out of the bounds, but why would I ever willingly throw an HQ into that meat grinder alone? Or allow Abbadon to get that close to my units at all? If I can shoot him to death I'd rather do that, or tar pit him, or as above; use a gimmick to trick the player into an assault he thinks he'll auto win and then yell "surprise your weapon skill is 1 while in combat with that squad!"
Opening up multiple ICs changes the equasion for many other ICs. What happens if Abbadon has a level 3 sorc helping him out by casting weakness on Belial? Giving 'combos' to one side but not the other is not fair.
The point of the thread is also not to say 'Abbadon will curb stop other ICs'. A smart reader will look at this and discover why Abbadon will take most other ICs lunch money. Looking at that, you can find a way to make your IC have the same benefits and become much more deadly in assault.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
azazel the cat wrote: If Abbadon's weapons do not have armourbane, then I think Bjorn the Fell-Handed will likely keep his lunch money. AV 13, Venerable and a 5++ make Bjorn pretty tough to bring down in CC without the armourbane rule. I suspect that he simply doesn't have enough attacks to win, though..
Abbadon Vs Bjorn Bjorn has AV 13, WS 6, STR 10, and 4 attacks per turn. He seems like a very dangerous matchup.
Lets see how it does.
Abbadon using "Talon of Horus":
WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 66.66% chance to hit
S 8 vs. AV13 = 33.33% chance to knock off hull point.
Abbadon has rage, so gets 7 attacks on the first round of combat.
Bjorn has a 5++ save, with 3 hull points.
66.66% × 33.33% × 66.66% × 7 attacks = ~1.03 Hull Points Knocked Off Round one
66.66% × 50.00% × 66.66% × 5 attacks = ~.74 unsaved wounds on the next rounds.
On round 4 Bjorn will die from hull point loss
Bjorn using DCCW:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit
S 10 vs. T5 = 83.33% chance to knock off hull point.
Abbadon has a 4++ save = 50% chance to get through, and
Bjorn has a 5++ save, with 3 hull points.
50.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 4 attacks = ~.83 wounds per turn
Abbadon will die on turn 5.
Results Bjorn will lose this battle. This was only counting hull point loss, and not even counting penetrating hits. To make matters worse, Bjorn does not have extra armor, so any 'stunned' result would result in Bjorn not attacking that round. Bjorn also risks losing his weapon.
Without those factors, I would say that its a fairly close matchup (being within 1 round) but with those factors, I think Abbadon has the edge in this duel.
You also failed to take into account that Abaddon gets re-rolls to hit against him....might even have preferred enemy too, can't remember at the minute
BenchianFingers wrote: I'm certainly open to suggestions to making a named HQ that costs 190 points (that can't buy a bunch of shnazzy wargear & relics) more deadly in the assault against an HQ that costs 275 points that doesn't involve outside intervention from other units in the army.
Abbadon is 265. Logan is 275. Abbadon is only 75 more points than Belail.
Your missing the point. You can make an IC that's very effective for less. Sure it won't kill Abbadon -- but he can do good against a lot of other ICs.
Let me illustrate what makes an 'IC excellent in challanges'
2+ Armor Save Most ICs in the game have AP3 weapons. In fact, you are more pressed to find AP2 weapons on special ICs than you might think. The DA book has none, for example. The DE book has one - and he can only join incubi squads. The SW book has two, and one of them is a dread.
Given this, any time you can have a 2+ save for an IC, its a huge advantage. This means that anybody with an AP3 weapon -- which is most named characters -- will just bounce off you. Mephison is a hell of a lot less scary if hes just scratching away at your 2+ armor save!
Therefore, when making your own ICs (lords, captains, etc) any time you can give a 2+ save its worth it. Artificer armor is the best way to do this, as terminator armor prevents sweeping -- but even terminator armor is better than no 2+ save.
AP2 weapon On the same token, a lot of ICs do have artificer armor/terminator armor. The DA book has 3 of them, for example.
In order to combat this, you want to ensure your IC has the ability to deliver AP2 attacks when required. This can be done through a PF or power axe.
If you can force someone to go from a 2+ save to a 4++ save, you have increased your damage output by 250%.
Invlun ICs with low invulns do not survive long. You want your IC to be toting at least a 4++ when possible. A 3++ is even better.
There is a reason that Mephiston is now the BA whipping boy. The lack of invuln save means he gets punked by any normal IC with artificer armor and a power fist.
Doubling Out / EW Being able to double out ICs is really valueable. This is why I mentioned the PF earlier. This means that if your facing an enemy IC like Vect - one failed save means its good game.
What this means is that anyone without EW effectivly only has 1 wound from high str weapons. Even if your getting less total 'attacks' with your high STR weapon, your still doing more damage because you only need to do 1 wound to finish the fight.
At worst this means they die 100% faster (2 wounds) At worst they are dying 400% faster (4 wounds)
FNP Any IC with FNP has significant boosts.
What makes FNP so good is that its an extra layer of defense. Any time you pick up those dice and reroll, more will fall through.
That's why a MEQ bolter is only has a 4/27 (14.8%) chance to kill a MEQ.
2/3 (to hit) * 2/3 (to wound) * 1/3 (failed save)
By forcing these dice to be picked up and rerolled your dramatically decreasing the total possible successes.
Lets show you how this works in action. Lets take a PG shot. Since they deny saves, they have a 4/9 chance to kill a MEQ. This is a 44.44%
2/3 (to hit) * 2/3 (to wound)
Now if you add in that 5++ FNP, the chances change to this.
2/3 (to hit) * 2/3 (to wound) * 2/3 (failed FNP)
The total is 2/9 or 29.62% to kill.
That's right. A 1/3 FNP save literally decreases the chances to kill by from ~45% to ~30%. That's significant!
How does this apply to ICs? Well, anytime your IC can get a FNP their survivability increases. Some ICs have this by default -- like Typhus, while others can get it from an apothicary.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
XT-1984 wrote: What about a Daemon Prince with the Murder Sword?
This was covered earlier with a black mace -- which is better than the murder sword. Look at the OP and you will see that the DP can take abbadon's lunch money.
Sadly though, the DP is not an IC
The dark eldar books one your referring to would be Drazhar correct? AFAIK unless its been FAQ'D the witch special characters attacks bypass armour
Well hell, if we're including escort units than Ghaz in a min. size Green Tide attacking a solo Abby would get 20 rerolls to hit, to wound and his 2++ save. Alas, 90 Shoota Boyz with 10 BS's would Dakka him to death before the fun started.
PipeAlley wrote: Well hell, if we're including escort units than Ghaz in a min.
Of all the ICs, Ghaz is actually one of the closest to being able to punk Abbadon. The reason for this is his ability to get a 2++ for two rounds of combat. If Ghaz can set it up so he gets both rounds in his duel with Abbadon he will win.
The problem, of course, is that rarely happens. My buddy plays Ghaz and I face him once every other week. What always happens is this. Ghaz charges forward with 4 mega-nobs. I challenge with a PM aspiring champion. Abbadon challenges on round two. That limits the invuln save to only one turn for Ghaz -- which tips the balance into Abbadons favor.
Ghaz has many of the key elements to make him a beast in a duel.
* High damage output
* High damage resistance (2++ for two rounds!)
* EW * High STR for insta-death
labmouse42 wrote: That limits the invuln save to only one turn for Ghaz -- which tips the balance into Abbadons favor.
Why would Ghaz not just wait until he's in combat with Abaddon to Waaagh!?
cant he only waaaagh in his turn?
Yea but he can do it once he's already locked in the duel, surelly its a bit of a stretch for abby to one turn gib him.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also we should be doing it in a vacuum, so run the math once with Ghaz getting the waaagh on 1st turn then once with it 2nd turn.
labmouse42 wrote: That limits the invuln save to only one turn for Ghaz -- which tips the balance into Abbadons favor.
Why would Ghaz not just wait until he's in combat with Abaddon to Waaagh!?
cant he only waaaagh in his turn?
Yea but he can do it once he's already locked in the duel, surelly its a bit of a stretch for abby to one turn gib him.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also we should be doing it in a vacuum, so run the math once with Ghaz getting the waaagh on 1st turn then once with it 2nd turn.
he only has a 5++ so he could end up getting gibbed in one turn. If not, he likely will have taken enough damage that even with his 2++ he will still go down.
DarknessEternal wrote: Swarmlord. The only thing with a chance against the Swarmlord in a duel has Mindshackle Scarabs, and none of those guys are Eternal Warriors, so even they don't have a very good chance.
What about a Daemon Prince with the Murder Sword?
Swarmlord causes Insant Death and is generally immune to it, so no.
labmouse42 wrote: That limits the invuln save to only one turn for Ghaz -- which tips the balance into Abbadons favor.
Why would Ghaz not just wait until he's in combat with Abaddon to Waaagh!?
cant he only waaaagh in his turn?
Yea but he can do it once he's already locked in the duel, surelly its a bit of a stretch for abby to one turn gib him.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also we should be doing it in a vacuum, so run the math once with Ghaz getting the waaagh on 1st turn then once with it 2nd turn.
he only has a 5++ so he could end up getting gibbed in one turn. If not, he likely will have taken enough damage that even with his 2++ he will still go down.
Of course, if you charge and challenge the first turn without declaring WAAGH, then Abaddon can accept your challenge directly and has a whole player turn to strike against your normal 5++
labmouse42 wrote: Lone wolves are pretty awesome.
Your thinking of a terminator with SS?
The biggest concern I see is the lack of wounds. The lone wolf only has 2.
Build one up and we can test it out.
beastslayer works on abby right?
ws 5 (still hitting on 4's though), reroll to hit, with hammer, would wound on 2's. has eternal warrior, FNP (which will work vs the AP2 daemon blade abby would have to use I'm assuming? (so 16% of hitting himself each round too)
Pretty good unit for 85 points to face down a 265 point model
3 of them is only 255 points. Would it be fair to have 3 on 1? or one after the other vs abby?
The two wolves would be great for ducking the first 2 wounding hits.
I know he's not an IC, but Arjac holds his own in combat fairly well, and if you include the models shooting eachother first, Arjac has the possibility of reducing Abby to I1 before combat even begins. That coupled with the fact that he rerolls all failed to hits in close combat as well as always hitting on a 3+ is very nice, plus 5 attacks on the charge or counter charge, and 3 the rest is great.
Also, Lukas the Trickster can one shot Abby by suicide bombing, but that really doesn't count as winning unless you're taking down a titan like that!
As far as straight up fluffy IC's go, Abaddon is the best in the game bar none. I think it's fairly awesome from a fluff perspective that the right-hand man and protege of the Emperor's treacherous son Horus stands tall as the uncontested best IC in the 41st Millennium. I've always been a fan of the villains and anti-heroes in everything though, so i'm also a massive Ghazghul fanboy, who happens to be the next best thing in an IC vs IC challenge.
With that said though, he's far from the best use of 265 points in an overall challenge scenario when you include Monstrous Creatures like ye olde Swarmlord and other Characters like Crowe, who can just suicide challenge and remove him from play for 150 points. That's not what this thread about though...
Long may Abaddon hold the title of scariest IC to challenge!
So just for fun I simulated a few duels between Abaddon and this guy (we'll call him High Chaplain Enceladus for the sake of fluffiness):
Black Templar Master of Sanctity (Accept Any Challenge vow taken)
Artificer Armour
Space Marine Bike
Master-Crafted Thunder Hammer
Storm Shield
Terminator Honours
Brings him in at 230 points and he's perfectly legal unless I'm mistaken?
I'll go for best of 5 and roll them both off to see who gets the charge bonus each fight.
First duel (roll off won by Enceladus 4 to 2):
Round 1 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 4 for Daemon weapon to go up to 8 attacks. He rolls to hit on 3+, rolls 5 hits. Rolls to wound and causes 3 wounds. Enceladus fails 1 invuln and saves 2.
Enceladus hits back with his 6 attacks at 4+, hits 3, wounds all 3. Abaddon fails 2 invulns and saves 1. Both down to 2 wounds.
Round 2 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen but rolls a 1 for Daemon weapon, wounding himself and failing his invuln. He attacks 4 times, hits 1 at 5+, wounds 1. Enceladus saves the invuln.
Enceladus hits back with 4 attacks at 3+, hits 2, wounds 2, Abaddon fails both invulns and dies.
Second duel (roll off won by Abaddon 5 to 4):
Round 1 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 1, wounding himself but making his invuln. He attacks 5 times, 2 hits at 5+, 1 wound. Enceladus saves the invuln.
Enceladus attacks back 4 times at 3+, 3 hits, 3 wounds. Abaddon fails 2 invulns and is down to 2 wounds.
Round 2 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen, again shockingly rolling a 1 but failing his invuln. He attacks 4 times at 5+, misses all 4.
Enceladus attacks back 4 times at 3+, 4 hits, 4 wounds. Abaddon makes 3 invulns but fails one and dies.
Third duel (Abaddon wins the roll off 6 to 4):
Round 1 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 3, attacking 8 times at 3+, 6 hits, 3 wounds. Enceladus saves 2 and fails 1 invuln.
Enceladus attacks back 4 times, 2 hits, 1 wound. Abaddon makes the invuln, remains at 4 wounds and Enceladus at 2.
Round 2 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 5, attacking 9 times at 3+, 8 hits, 5 wounds. Enceladus saves 4 and fails 1 invuln.
Enceladus attacks back 4 times, 1 hit, 1 wound. Abaddon fails his save and is down to 3 wounds with Enceladus at 1.
Round 3 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 4, attacking 8 times, 4 hits, 2 wounds. Enceladus saves both invulns.
Enceladus attacks back 4 times, 2 hits, 2 wounds. Abaddon saves both invulns. Stalemate.
Round 4 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 2, attacking 6 times, 3 hits, 1 wound. Enceladus fails his invuln and dies. The Gods reward Abaddon for his triumph and he rolls a 43 on the Boon chart (Venomous).
Forth duel (Enceladus wins the roll off 3 to 1):
Round 1 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 5, attacking 9 times, 6 hits, 3 wounds. Enceladus saves 2 and fails 1 invuln.
Enceladus attacks back with 6 attacks, hits 3, wounds 3. Abaddon saves 1 and fails 2 invulns. Abaddon is down to 2 wounds, as is Enceladus.
Round 2 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 6, attacking 10 times (I'm actually terrified), 5 hits, 5 wounds. Enceladus saves 2 and fails 3 and dies. The Gods reward Abaddon for his triumph and he rolls a 64 on the Boon chart. He re-rolls for a 66 and menacingly transforms into a Daemon Prince.
Fifth duel (Enceladus wins the roll off 6 to 1):
Round 1 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 4, attacking 8 times, 5 hits, 1 wound. Enceladus saves the invuln.
Enceladus attacks back 6 times, 2 hits, 2 wounds. Abaddon makes 1 and fails 1 invuln. Both now at 3 wounds.
Round 2 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 2, attacking 6 times, 2 hits and 2 wounds. Enceladus saves 1 and fails 1 invuln.
Enceladus attacks back 4 times, 4 hits, 3 wounds. Abaddon fails 2 and saves 1 invuln. Abaddon at 1 wound and Enceladus at 2.
Round 3 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 1, wounding himself and failing his invuln. He dies.
That was fun! Since Enceladus was on a bike and was T5 there was not much point hitting with Talon of Horus because it wouldn't have been an insta-death, so Abaddon was better off trying to maximise his attacks each round with Drach'nyen. Hitting him on no worse than a 4+ and at 3+ when he spanked himself is pretty standard. The Storm Shield kept me motoring on and eating his attacks up and attacking back at S8 meant I was wounding on 2's.
You can math hammer all you like but the dice wanna do what the dice wanna do. My made up BT Chaplain just got the better of Abaddon 3-2. A TH/SS model at T5 is a nasty prospect for anything to have to hit, including the great Despoiler.
On a side note, he managed a 66 on the Boon chart after killing Enceladus the second time. The chart specifies that the Daemon Prince keeps any mark the character had... Does this transform Abaddon into a Daemon Prince with the benefits of all 4 Gods?!?!
Enceladus wrote: You can math hammer all you like but the dice wanna do what the dice wanna do. My made up BT Chaplain just got the better of Abaddon 3-2. A TH/SS model at T5 is a nasty prospect for anything to have to hit, including the great Despoiler.
Good job with the dice.
Out of curiousity
- How is the BT hero hitting on 3s?
- Did you remember Abbadon has 4 wounds and EW?
- Did you remember that Abbadon has hatred of marines, so can reroll attacks on the charge?
- Did you remember that Abbadon has perferred enemy so can reroll any results of a 1 on to-hit or to-wound.
- Did you remember that Abbadon has rage, so gets 7 attacks on the charge, not 5?
- Did you remember that Abbadon has 2 specialist weapons, so he gets 5 attacks base, not 4?
- Did you remember that Abbadon has counter-assault so he gets 6 attacks back when charged.
Enceladus wrote: You can math hammer all you like but the dice wanna do what the dice wanna do. My made up BT Chaplain just got the better of Abaddon 3-2. A TH/SS model at T5 is a nasty prospect for anything to have to hit, including the great Despoiler.
Good job with the dice.
Out of curiousity
- How is the BT hero hitting on 3s?
- Did you remember Abbadon has 4 wounds and EW?
- Did you remember that Abbadon has hatred of marines, so can reroll attacks on the charge?
- Did you remember that Abbadon has perferred enemy so can reroll any results of a 1 on to-hit or to-wound.
- Did you remember that Abbadon has rage, so gets 7 attacks on the charge, not 5?
- Did you remember that Abbadon has 2 specialist weapons, so he gets 5 attacks base, not 4?
- Did you remember that Abbadon has counter-assault so he gets 6 attacks back when charged.
Abaddon is reduced to WS1 if he hits himself, meaning he's then hit on 3's.
I did indeed take into account 4 wounds and EW.
I did take into account Veterans of the Long War.
I didn't realise he had Rage and Counter-Attack, just realised he has all 4 Marks and this slipped my mind.
So I was pretty much only a swing short on his behalf. It probably would have made a slight difference to the outcomes but you can see he still has issues dealing with a T5 SS.TH model. I'd back Abaddon every time, don't get me wrong, but this Chaplain has more than a chance of competing. On all 3 occasions I killed him, he reduced himself to WS1 and I could hit him on 3+, otherwise he smashed me to bits because he was too hard to hit on 5+.
I'm by no means saying "MY IC BEATS ABADDON OMGWTFBBQ!!!" I just think I've thrown a pretty good option out there as far as IC's go! :-)
Abbadon Vs BT Champion Now, onto the battle!
The BT champion has a number of advantages going for him. He has a STR 8 weapon, he has a 2+ save/3++ save. He even has a lot of attacks on the charge (though I'm not sure how he gets 6 attacks when charging). I took these averages assuming the BT always get the charge, since he has a 12" move it seems logical.
Abbadon using "Drach'nyen": WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 77.77% chance to hit (with perferred enemy)
S 5 vs. T5 = 58.3% chance to wound (with perferred enemy)
Champion has a 3++ save = 33.33% chance to get through, and
Abbadon has counter-attack, so gets 6 attacks on the first round of combat.
On a roll of 1, the daemon weapon reduces WS to 1, and wounds Abbadon.
38.90% × 50.00% × 33.33%× 5 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.06, plus
83.33% × 50.00% × 33.33% × 7 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.17, plus
83.33% × 50.00% × 33.33% × 8 attacks × 16.67% = 0.20, plus
83.33% × 50.00% × 33.33% × 9 attacks × 16.67% = 0.22, plus
83.33% × 50.00% × 33.33% × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.25, plus
83.33% × 50.00% × 33.33% × 11 attacks × 16.67% = 0.27 equals ~1.45 unsaved wounds first turn.
The BT Champion will likely die on round three before swinging.
BT Champion: WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit
Champion wounds Abbadon on a 2+
Champion has a master crafted weapon.
Champion has 6 attacks on the charge, 4 normally.
Abbadon has a 4+ save = 50.00% chance to get through, and
75.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 1 attacks =
50.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 3 attacks = 0937 unsaved wounds round two+
Abbadon will likely die at the bottom of round four.
Results: Its a tougher matchup than some of the others. Abbadon will kill the BT champion two rounds earlier, meaning that the BT champion has a decent shot at it -- but odds are not in his favor. If Abbadon can use a normal CSM champion to each the 6 attack charge, the odds shift even better in Abbadon's favor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Enceladus wrote: I'm by no means saying "MY IC BEATS ABADDON OMGWTFBBQ!!!" I just think I've thrown a pretty good option out there as far as IC's go! :-)
Most importantly, you realized the hidden point of this thread.
"What makes an IC kick face in assault?" Its a few key things, all of which the BT champion has.
- 2+ save
- Good invuln
- Lots of attacks
- Good wound pool
- AP2 weapon
Put that BTIC up against nearly any other IC in the game, and you will see him crush face.
With a Thunderwolf Mount, WTN, Thunderhammer, Storm Shield, runic armor, saga of the bear, and two dogs.
He hits on 3+, wounds on 2s. The dogs give him a free reroll for moral support. He gets a hammer of wraith attack off the bat, and 6 attacks first turn, for just under 2 wounds to Abbadon.
Abbadon will do .75 with Drac.
Next round, both go at I 1, with the WL doing 1.4 w to Abbadon's .75
WL should kill by Turn 3, while Abbadon will have to wait till turn 4.
Wolf Lord comes out to 290, so only 25 points more.
edit: WL is WS 6, T5, 5A base, with 2+/3++ and EW.
Do you mean the Chaplain on a bike like in Enceladus' post or the EC, because the EC is not nearly that good and I'm not sure which one you mean (I'm finding my EC is getting roflstomped by every other character he meets atm )
BT characters (except the EC) are WS5
a chaplain on the charge would also get rerolls to hit
he can get 6 attacks from 3 in profile, +1 for Terminator honours, and with rage +2 on the charge =6
I've found my BT marshal on a bike to be quite a bulldozer except for when he meets Abbadon of Ghazghkull
What about a Dark Angels Company Master? Take Artificer Armour, Storm Shield, Bike, Mace of Retribution, and Shroud of Heroes. He has a 2+/3++, hits on a 4, wounds on a 2 with an AP2 weapon and has preferred enemy CSM, so re-rolls 1's on to hit and to wound. At T5 he won't get ID by the talon, and with the 2+ doesn't have to worry as much about the Daemon weapon. To top is all off, he would also get FNP from the Shroud. All in all a pricey way to take on Abaddon but might get the job done.
Edit: Just noticed you can't take the bike with the company master so nevermind.
I run a GK Draigowing and Abby gives all sorts of crazy problems. Best way i have found is to take a Vindicator Assassin. Strip his 2+ sv for the rest of the game and let Draigo or a Libby with a Warding Stave and some Paladins go to town on him. With the new FAQ he isn't even able to LoS the Vindicator shots. He aint so tough with only a 4++!
As far as I was aware you don't negate an armour save with the Vindicare Assassin, you negate any invuln conveyed by the model's wargear for the rest of the game. Abaddon would remain 2+ but would lose his invuln of 4++.
Enceladus wrote: As far as I was aware you don't negate an armour save with the Vindicare Assassin, you negate any invuln conveyed by the model's wargear for the rest of the game. Abaddon would remain 2+ but would lose his invuln of 4++.
That could be my plan out the window. Ill double check when i get home. This could still be effective. Without a 4++ he would be vulnerable to AP2 shots and Weapons. Would still be a beast in CC but high volume of attacks might be the way to go.
Enceladus wrote: As far as I was aware you don't negate an armour save with the Vindicare Assassin, you negate any invuln conveyed by the model's wargear for the rest of the game. Abaddon would remain 2+ but would lose his invuln of 4++.
Exitus Rifle is AP:1 Pretty sure that negates Abby's armour save.
Krellnus wrote: .
Exitus Rifle is AP:1 Pretty sure that negates Abby's armour save.
It would, in theory you could kill him in 2 turns using Turbo-penetrator rounds to cause 2 wounds per turn but he would still have his 4++ or use Shieldbreaker rounds first to strip the 4++ then keep popping him with the AP1 Exitus Rifle to soften him up for assault or just kill him without having to go through all the ablative terminator wounds he will surely have. Shame the Assassin is so damn squishy and probably wont last more than 2 or 3 turns.
Probably a waste of a target for a Heldrake, with the flamer anyway. Can only cause 1 wound that would still have a 4++, but it would be a high priority target, and if Abby is deepstriking then he may not get a chance to shoot him at all.
Messy0 wrote: I run a GK Draigowing and Abby gives all sorts of crazy problems. Best way i have found is to take a Vindicator Assassin. Strip his 2+ sv for the rest of the game and let Draigo or a Libby with a Warding Stave and some Paladins go to town on him. With the new FAQ he isn't even able to LoS the Vindicator shots. He aint so tough with only a 4++!
That is the best testament to Abby's badassery.
Let me rephrase : "You can get rid of him by sending some assassin sniping him, then get a GK librarian with his paladin squad to go face to face with him, and for good measure, have him run over by a tank. Twice. Just to be sure."
The more I read this thread, the more I ask myself this : 1. Abbadon is a beast. How can you deliver him safely in CC? 2. How is he better than a DP with wings, PA and the black mace (mark to your liking)
Cause yeah, Abbadon rocks. But is he really useable in game?
I would say so. Best way off the top of my head would be to Deepstike him with 10 Terminators. Plenty of wounds, more than 1 character for challenges and they would be able to resist 1 round of shooting before they can get into CC. To me he is pretty much unstoppable unless you tailor to beat him, and im not a fan of tailoring my lists to beat 1 IC
Seb wrote: Cause yeah, Abbadon rocks. But is he really useable in game?
I've been using him for a few weeks lately to a good degree of success.
I've been using my CSM for mid-board control by spamming lots of bodies. The problem with spam lists is that they are very weak to assault.
Abbadon solves this problem with his unique ability to say "Get of my Lawn!" when any assault unit gets close. Really, if anything gets close.
DarknessEternal wrote: Swarmlord. The only thing with a chance against the Swarmlord in a duel has Mindshackle Scarabs, and none of those guys are Eternal Warriors, so even they don't have a very good chance.
What about a Daemon Prince with the Murder Sword?
Swarmlord causes Insant Death and is generally immune to it, so no.
the murder sword causes ID as well. The DP strikes first, hits on 3s wounds on 2s, then the 4++. The swarmlord will kill the DP almost certianly if he gets to strike. IF HE GETS TO STRIKE.
And still needs him to fail four invulnreable saves whereas he only needs to wound once with dracynen, short of a wizard casting something to make it closer abaddon would eat the she-elf
I know that their not independant characters, but how would a 5 man squad of DW Knights go. Their roughly the same price and this is the type of thing that they are supposed to do, with their 1 lower AP against chaos and their special killy thingo. Could anyone do the math?
bobtheoverlord wrote: I know that their not independant characters, but how would a 5 man squad of DW Knights go. Their roughly the same price and this is the type of thing that they are supposed to do, with their 1 lower AP against chaos and their special killy thingo. Could anyone do the math?
there are plenty of squads that can do it. Deathwing knights are actually pretty bad at it. Outside of their 1 smite round they are wounding on 3+ and abby gets his 2+ save.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Solomongrundy wrote: Everytime I read more and more of this post, I really want to field Abaddon. Just waiting on getting my cultists finished to run with him.
I'll post what happens with him, see how it works out with the blob
I am liking chosen wing. Dont think it uber effective but I think it would be fun. Abby is gonna lead a squad of 10 chosen with MoN and 5 plasma(very expensive I know) There will be another squad of 6 with 5 flamers and 7 with 5 melta and perhaps another squad of 8 with 4-5 plasma running around in his bubble too.
not against the knight master he ain't but yeah DEathwing knight are not gonna take down abby however there is one Da character who can make him alot easier to deal with Ezekial.
Exergy wrote: I am liking chosen wing. Dont think it uber effective but I think it would be fun. Abby is gonna lead a squad of 10 chosen with MoN and 5 plasma(very expensive I know) There will be another squad of 6 with 5 flamers and 7 with 5 melta and perhaps another squad of 8 with 4-5 plasma running around in his bubble too.
I've been playing with Chosen, and I will keep working on it till I find what works.
This is my current 10 man chosen squads loadout
- Mark of Nurgle (as it gives a 30% increased RPP to bolters with only a 15% decrease to PGs)
- 2 Flamers (cheap and provides overwatch + hoard control)
- Autocannon (cheap anti-tank shot, good to snap shot vs flyers)
- 2 PGs (MEQ killing power)
The idea is to use them at TAC squads with 5 heavy/special weapon options. Unlike a C:SMTAC squad, they get 4 attacks on the charge.
The idea is to not overload them with to expensive of special weapons. While 5 PGs is appealing, its also 75 points. The weapon loadout above is 50 points, and provides a lot of flexability. I am tempted on changing out the AC for a LC in some squads. I might also swap out a flamer/PG for a MG every now and then.
It might not work out at all, of course. I may try it for a few weeks then discard it as 'garbage' but Ill give it a fair shot until then.
I have to say if abbadons strength 8 roll was 1 strength less then brother corbulo would be the ultimate troll for him. Abbadon walks up to corbulo and is all like lunch money loss corbulo says 2+ fnp and so 3 turns later corbulos down and Abbadon says panting now gimme yo lunch money corbulo stands up and says one re roll per game *troll face* but realistically corbulo would be dead. But is the ultimate one man tarpit put with some cheap unit to look out sir strength 8 weapons.
Not sure if this was discussed but, has combat tactics and calagar's ap 2 twin linked bolter been factored in?
I know in a pure swing by swing abbadon wins but what about disengaging on on abandons turn and piping him with the ap 2 bolters every other round? Seems like it might tip the scale.
Abbadon is pure evil, but remember there are some pairings for him that are more valuable than others. Also, remember he has this affinity with some other units and makes them look better just by being around.
- Bring along a squad with a sergeant to take on the challenges. Khorne CSMs, Berzerkers, Possessed and Terminators are good choices.
- Give him AV support. He's not going to be able to take out Dreadnoughts efficiently. A lascannon havoc squad or a lascannon predator can go a long way to keeping him in productive battles.
- Pair him with shooty anti-infantry squads to wipe out enemy units in a single round. Noise Marines and Plasma Chosen are excellent at softening up targets before Abbadon charges in to kill what's left.
- Set him up to fight with something with a unit with an icon. IoS is outstanding, Abbadon with FNP is just plain mean to do to people.
Some things that seem to limit his effectiveness include:
- Cultists. Try embedding him in a 30 man cultist unit. There are going to be problems bringing Abbadon to the front because of all the models in the way.
- Spawn. Surprised me to think this, but they actually make poor bodyguards b/c of the lack of a sergeant. Abbadon gets tied up, and even units of 5 spawn are not enough to just wipe out units.
- Allies. When you have Abbadon, you have a vaccum cleaner that can rapidly eat up enemy units. Don't spend the points on an allied commander, spend the points on Chaos units that will compliment what you are doing with Abbadon.
I have been running him in 3 lists for the past couple months, here are some variations I have had a lot of success with:
- Abbadon and the Termipals: Get Abbadon, a CL in terminator armor with MoZ and the Black Mace, and a Terminator squad with MoT. Run it as a single unit and watch your enemies race to attack it. It's not going to happen, and you are going to dominate every close combat.
- Abbadon and His Chosen / Noise Marines: Get Abbadon and a few units of plasma chosen or Noise Marines. March Abbadon up the board and shoot up any units he encounters just before he charges. People will think Abbadon is an easy target to kill by shooting, he's not, so you get several free rounds of shooting for your troops with fairly powerful guns.
- Abbadon's Flying Circus: This is a harder list to play, there is no easy button, but it's outstanding when it works right. Put Abbadon in a Land Raider with a smaller assault squad and get 3 Heldrakes. Have the Heldrakes vector strike and baleflamer the toughest enemy unit (i.e. a deathstar), then have Abbadon assault from within the Land Raider. This just messed with people, they can't blow up anything the first couple rounds, then you march out and take out their toughest unit. It draws in their other units, and Abbadon is at this best when he is fighting a ton of units in cc.
What about 29 shoota boyz with a PK Nob on the charge vs Abby? (not likely to happen as Abby does have friends too!).
Hey there Whembly. The point of the thread is not a 'beat this unit' thread, but instead a thread on what makes an IC dominate.
Some people have given good suggestions on how to use Abbadon properly.
To answer your question. A squad of 29 boys + PK nob are very hard to calculate. This is because not all 30 boys will be in range to swing. Your going to get a subset of them.
Also the PK nob won't swing. Abbadon will challange on the turn you come in. Its critical that your boys swing on that turn, so you cant afford to feed the nob to them. As such, the nob will just hide from Abbadon and not contribute. The nob will be gibbed if he challanges Abbadon.
To see how well an ork boy does. These are the chances of him hurting Abbadon
1/2 * 1/3 * 1/6 = 1/36 chance of wounding on the turn they charge. For every 9 (slugga) boys you have near him you can expect to do one wound.
1/2 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 1/72 chance of wounding afterwords. For every 24 boys within 3" of him you can expect to do one wound.
Abbadon will be killing ~8 ork boys per turn. To make matters even worse for the boys, Abbadons killing range will be so great that you won't be able to get many orks close to him.
If you want to see Abbadon die to a squad, look at DA knights.
What about 29 shoota boyz with a PK Nob on the charge vs Abby? (not likely to happen as Abby does have friends too!).
Hey there Whembly. The point of the thread is not a 'beat this unit' thread, but instead a thread on what makes an IC dominate.
Some people have given good suggestions on how to use Abbadon properly.
To answer your question. A squad of 29 boys + PK nob are very hard to calculate. This is because not all 30 boys will be in range to swing. Your going to get a subset of them.
Also the PK nob won't swing. Abbadon will challange on the turn you come in. Its critical that your boys swing on that turn, so you cant afford to feed the nob to them. As such, the nob will just hide from Abbadon and not contribute. The nob will be gibbed if he challanges Abbadon.
To see how well an ork boy does. These are the chances of him hurting Abbadon
1/2 * 1/3 * 1/6 = 1/36 chance of wounding on the turn they charge. For every 9 (slugga) boys you have near him you can expect to do one wound.
1/2 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 1/72 chance of wounding afterwords. For every 24 boys within 3" of him you can expect to do one wound.
Abbadon will be killing ~8 ork boys per turn. To make matters even worse for the boys, Abbadons killing range will be so great that you won't be able to get many orks close to him.
If you want to see Abbadon die to a squad, look at DA knights.
Gotcha...
Ghazzie on his Waagh might have a chance...albeit slim.
Other than that... my answer is usually to avoid him and dakka him to death (roll those 's).
In a battle of HQs a year or two ago, the Bloodthirster came out on top, beating even the Swarmlord and Abaddon. Might've just been luck, but the Thirster is supposed to be the king of melee and that proved it.
Today I was deciding whether to use Kharn and AxeLord (with Berzekers) vs Typhus and Plague Marines....this is for an 1850 tournie. I'd have either bunch in a Land Raider. Typhus survived 5 test rounds vs Kharn in a challenge and killed Kharn in a minimum of 2 rounds each time. The same happened vs the AxeLord, though he lasted 2 rounds 2 more times than Kharn (Sigil of Corruption helped there).
I think Typhus might be able to keep his lunch money vs Abaddon, as vs Drachnyen he'd still get the 5+ invul and Feel No Pain, plus that would only wound Typhus on 4s, whereas the ManReaper would wound Abaddon on 3s, though they hit on 4s/3s respectively.
Putting both Typhus and Abaddon together with Plague Marines in a Land Raider would be ridiculously awesome vs nearly any unit!
Swarmlord causes Insant Death and is generally immune to it, so no.
the murder sword causes ID as well. The DP strikes first, hits on 3s wounds on 2s, then the 4++. The swarmlord will kill the DP almost certianly if he gets to strike. IF HE GETS TO STRIKE.
You missed a part.
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Watchersinthedark wrote: What about a Dark Angels Company Master? Take Artificer Armour, Storm Shield, Bike, Mace of Retribution, and Shroud of Heroes.
Don't suppose Lysander is up for contention? Decent wounds, 2+/3++ and a mastercrafted str10 t-hammer to boot. ANd I think hes got EW as well, not sure.
You forgot about one, Abbadon vs. Abbadon! Lol no. Seriously though, I feel as though Abbadon vs the well kitted Necron Lord, or a psyker, like Njal Stormcaller or Mephiston, he would be in deel trouble. Also against Logan Grinmar. Using Morkai as a Power fist, always hitting on 3+ and 2+/4++ save, which isnt the best, but certainly good, also with Counter Attack, he could do well against Abbadon.
However I also feel as though the new CSM book is a little ridiculous over all. 65pt HQ choices which start of really good, and cheap infantry mixed with cheap marks and crazy new units/rules with the Obliterators and Terminators, make them really way better than regular marines, and most armies.
Though it is a pretty stellar example of GW and the usual, each book is more ridiculous than the last, sort of deal. Space Wolves were awesome, then Blood Angles were just ridiculous, and now Chaos Space Marines are ridiculous. Though Dark Angels only mildly broke that pattern. Also showing how GW favors the evil style armies.
Mountain-Breaker wrote: You forgot about one, Abbadon vs. Abbadon! Lol no. Seriously though, I feel as though Abbadon vs the well kitted Necron Lord, or a psyker, like Njal Stormcaller or Mephiston, he would be in deel trouble. Also against Logan Grinmar. Using Morkai as a Power fist, always hitting on 3+ and 2+/4++ save, which isnt the best, but certainly good, also with Counter Attack, he could do well against Abbadon.
However I also feel as though the new CSM book is a little ridiculous over all. 65pt HQ choices which start of really good, and cheap infantry mixed with cheap marks and crazy new units/rules with the Obliterators and Terminators, make them really way better than regular marines, and most armies.
Though it is a pretty stellar example of GW and the usual, each book is more ridiculous than the last, sort of deal. Space Wolves were awesome, then Blood Angles were just ridiculous, and now Chaos Space Marines are ridiculous. Though Dark Angels only mildly broke that pattern. Also showing how GW favors the evil style armies.
Mephiston would be very bad, his AP3 sword bouncing of Abby's armour, same for Njal.
Juvieus Kaine wrote: Don't suppose Lysander is up for contention? Decent wounds, 2+/3++ and a mastercrafted str10 t-hammer to boot. ANd I think hes got EW as well, not sure.
Lysander lacks the attacks to take Abbadon down. When Abbadon is smacking Lysander 8.5 times per round, and Lysander is smacking 3 times back, he just can't stand the punishment.
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Lord Krungharr wrote: I think Typhus might be able to keep his lunch money vs Abaddon, as vs Drachnyen he'd still get the 5+ invul and Feel No Pain, plus that would only wound Typhus on 4s, whereas the ManReaper would wound Abaddon on 3s, though they hit on 4s/3s respectively.!
Typhus is an excellent contender. With FNP and 5++, he has a 55% chance to save.
The big drawback typhus has is the lack of attacks. His base is 3 attacks and he does not get an extra CCW like Abbadon does. This means Abbadon is sporting 5 attacks base while Typhus only gets 3. Those extra attacks edge it out over Typhus over a few rounds -- though it is close.
Typhus has a number of tools to be an excellent IC. He has a 2+ save, a 55% to ignore AP2 attacks, an AP2 weapon, and lots of attacks. His big weakness is that STR 10 attacks gib him.
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whembly wrote: Ghazzie on his Waagh might have a chance...albeit slim.
Ghaz actually comes within one round of killing Abbadon. If Ghaz gets both rounds of Waaagh off, he has an edge over Abbadon.
Ghaz is a remarkably nasty IC for 2 combat rounds.
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Mountain-Breaker wrote: You forgot about one, Abbadon vs. Abbadon! Lol no. Seriously though, I feel as though Abbadon vs the well kitted Necron Lord, or a psyker, like Njal Stormcaller or Mephiston, he would be in deel trouble. Also against Logan Grinmar. Using Morkai as a Power fist, always hitting on 3+ and 2+/4++ save, which isnt the best, but certainly good, also with Counter Attack, he could do well against Abbadon..
* The Necron Lord will kill Abbadon, provided the lord has gotten the correct gear.
* Njal and Mephiston bounce off Abbadon. They die quickly.
* Logan is a decent matchup. He eventually fails due to only having 3 wounds and 5 attacks.
However I also feel as though the new CSM book is a little ridiculous over all. 65pt HQ choices which start of really good, and cheap infantry mixed with cheap marks and crazy new units/rules with the Obliterators and Terminators, make them really way better than regular marines, and most armies.
Um how?
DAtac marines come with more options and skills and cost 5 points less to start with. We have to pay additional points to get bonus vs Marines, their bonus vs Chaos is built in.
Most of our elite choices are only there to make into troop choices with the right HQ, the remaining elite section is decidedly lackluster, no cult terminators for example while the new niche marine codex includes not only Deathwing armies, but a new sub-sect of EVEN MORE ELITE DEATHWING RAWR.
Oblits and Terminators aren't new units either, not sure why you make a note of them. Oblits are now more limited than they were in 5E being that they can't use the same weapon consecutively - for no apparent reason other than they wanted to add a rule in.
We can't use drop pods, even though fluff-wise Chaos has superior ones. Even if we could marines would just ally with GK and quake us off the table/Coteaz. Chaos is from the warp and yet we have absolutely no extra bonus to effecting enemy deepstrike or psychics, whereas marines (and specifically GK have skills abound).
MarsNZ wrote: DAtac marines come with more options and skills and cost 5 points less to start with. We have to pay additional points to get bonus vs Marines, their bonus vs Chaos is built in.
That's because they are not paying for a sergeant. If you count the cost of a sergeant, they are 1 more point base than CSM. If you kit a DATAC squad out exactly like a C:SMTAC squad the cost is identical. The only advantage DA TACs have is they can go 5 man with a heavy weapon.
The problem is DA TACs suck for troops. They are not resilient.
First is the LD problem. If you skip the sergeant, your failing break tests 27.77% of the time instead of 16.66% of the time. While DA have ATSKNF, it does not help you if your fall off the board, or break on the bottom of the last turn. Breaking is great when you have combat tactics and you choose when to break. Breaking sucks when it happens when you don't want it to.
The second problem is the failure of TAC squads in assault. Having no extra CCW and only 1 attack means they just crumple when anyone looks at them. DA are even worse than C:SM tacs. Normally when wraiths attack C:SM, they lose the combat by 5, fall back then shoot the wraiths in the face. DA TACS are stubborn so are rolling on their unmodified leadership. Instead of shooting wraiths in the face, they become wraith o'derves.
Are CSM better? No. You can give them some nice upgrades, like MoN, but they are still lacking when compared to PMs/NMs. The cost to boost up a squad of CSM to be decent makes them point prohibitive.
Swarmlord causes Insant Death and is generally immune to it, so no.
the murder sword causes ID as well. The DP strikes first, hits on 3s wounds on 2s, then the 4++. The swarmlord will kill the DP almost certianly if he gets to strike. IF HE GETS TO STRIKE.
DarknessEternal wrote: Swarmlord. The only thing with a chance against the Swarmlord in a duel has Mindshackle Scarabs, and none of those guys are Eternal Warriors, so even they don't have a very good chance.
What about a Daemon Prince with the Murder Sword?
Swarmlord causes Insant Death and is generally immune to it, so no.
you replyed that no, a DP with a murder sword could not take the swarmlord, because he is generally immune to ID. This is like saying that no, a landraider has nothing to fear from a brick of necron warriors because generally landraiders are immune to small arms fire. See how that works out.
I suppose you didnt know anything about the murder sword, that it causes ID that the swarmlord cannot ignore and thus will likely kill the swarmlord pretty easily. Don't pass judgement if you dont know.
He wears terminator armor. Doesn't that come with a 5++?
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Dundas wrote: OK, I've skimmed and I think Wolf Lords were mentioned but didn't see the maths. Would the following lord keep his lunch money?
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf, Artificer Armour, Thunderhammer and Storm Sheild, Saga of the Beastslayer.
About the same price as Abby at 260 points.
If the wolf lord also takes the wolf tail talisman so hes always hitting on 3+ they will kill each other on the same round, on I1, due to the concussive effect of the thunder hammer.
This happens on round 3 of the assault.
The problem, of course, is that your wolf lord wants to take saga of the bear. If he does not, Ghaz will gimp him in round 1 with an ID.
Has the break down of Abbadon v. Papa Smurf been done? factoring combat tactics to allow Papa smurf to keep shooting his ap 2 twin linked bolter and charging abbadon? Seems like he might be a good contender.
Pony_law wrote: Has the break down of Abbadon v. Papa Smurf been done? factoring combat tactics to allow Papa smurf to keep shooting his ap 2 twin linked bolter and charging abbadon? Seems like he might be a good contender.
Pappa smurf must beat Abbadon in an init check to use combat tactics.
Hes Init 5, while Abbadon it init 6. Since he must beat Abbadon, not tie him, the odds are not good that he can fall back and shoot Abbadon in the face.
Also, remember that bolter is not that great vs Abbadon.
It hits 5/6 of the time, wounds 1/3 of the time, and Abbadon saves 1/2 the time for a whopping 5/36 (13.8%) to wound Abbadon with his bolter. Even with two shots, its not really good odds.
Pony_law wrote: Has the break down of Abbadon v. Papa Smurf been done? factoring combat tactics to allow Papa smurf to keep shooting his ap 2 twin linked bolter and charging abbadon? Seems like he might be a good contender.
Pappa smurf must beat Abbadon in an init check to use combat tactics.
Hes Init 5, while Abbadon it init 6. Since he must beat Abbadon, not tie him, the odds are not good that he can fall back and shoot Abbadon in the face.
Also, remember that bolter is not that great vs Abbadon.
It hits 5/6 of the time, wounds 1/3 of the time, and Abbadon saves 1/2 the time for a whopping 5/36 (13.8%) to wound Abbadon with his bolter. Even with two shots, its not really good odds.
and it then allows abby to charge and get +2 attacks, although abby will take overwatch. It also only happens if Abby beats Papa smurf, which is likely but not guarenteed.
Pony_law wrote: Has the break down of Abbadon v. Papa Smurf been done? factoring combat tactics to allow Papa smurf to keep shooting his ap 2 twin linked bolter and charging abbadon? Seems like he might be a good contender.
Pappa smurf must beat Abbadon in an init check to use combat tactics.
Hes Init 5, while Abbadon it init 6. Since he must beat Abbadon, not tie him, the odds are not good that he can fall back and shoot Abbadon in the face.
Also, remember that bolter is not that great vs Abbadon.
It hits 5/6 of the time, wounds 1/3 of the time, and Abbadon saves 1/2 the time for a whopping 5/36 (13.8%) to wound Abbadon with his bolter. Even with two shots, its not really good odds.
Abby is in Terminator armor, so any unit wishing to fall back from him automatically does so successfully.
Pony_law wrote: Has the break down of Abbadon v. Papa Smurf been done? factoring combat tactics to allow Papa smurf to keep shooting his ap 2 twin linked bolter and charging abbadon? Seems like he might be a good contender.
Pappa smurf must beat Abbadon in an init check to use combat tactics.
Hes Init 5, while Abbadon it init 6. Since he must beat Abbadon, not tie him, the odds are not good that he can fall back and shoot Abbadon in the face.
Also, remember that bolter is not that great vs Abbadon.
It hits 5/6 of the time, wounds 1/3 of the time, and Abbadon saves 1/2 the time for a whopping 5/36 (13.8%) to wound Abbadon with his bolter. Even with two shots, its not really good odds.
and it then allows abby to charge and get +2 attacks, although abby will take overwatch. It also only happens if Abby beats Papa smurf, which is likely but not guarenteed.
a couple of points in this seem off to me. First Papa smurf is BS5 and his bolters are twin linked so he is hitting twice the vast majority of the time (even better than 5/6). Second I think you would only break and leave combat when your turn follows thus papa smurf is constantly charging and Abbadon never gets another charge.
Pony_law wrote: a couple of points in this seem off to me. First Papa smurf is BS5 and his bolters are twin linked so he is hitting twice the vast majority of the time (even better than 5/6). Second I think you would only break and leave combat when your turn follows thus papa smurf is constantly charging and Abbadon never gets another charge.
Are they twin-linked?
p84 C:SM Codex
These are a matched pair of power fists. They also contain a pair of integrated bolters that can be fired with the following profile.
Range : 24
STR : 4
AP : 2
Type : Assault 2
I see nothing there that says "Twin-Linked" Is it somewhere else in the codex?
Pony_law wrote: a couple of points in this seem off to me. First Papa smurf is BS5 and his bolters are twin linked so he is hitting twice the vast majority of the time (even better than 5/6). Second I think you would only break and leave combat when your turn follows thus papa smurf is constantly charging and Abbadon never gets another charge.
Are they twin-linked?
p84 C:SM Codex
These are a matched pair of power fists. They also contain a pair of integrated bolters that can be fired with the following profile.
Range : 24
STR : 4
AP : 2
Type : Assault 2
I see nothing there that says "Twin-Linked" Is it somewhere else in the codex?
Doesn't papa smurf have re-roll all to hits and wounds or something?
I'm fairly certain I know who'll win, but how would a Lone Wolf with Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Terminator Armor (not that that makes a difference here) fare against Abbadon. I'd do it myself, but I don't know Abbadon's stats.
Griddlelol wrote: I'm fairly certain I know who'll win, but how would a Lone Wolf with Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Terminator Armor (not that that makes a difference here) fare against Abbadon. I'd do it myself, but I don't know Abbadon's stats.
its really pretty easy. Abby's WS = High
Abby's S = 5 or 8
Abby's T = Plague Marine
Abby's wounds = same as vect :(
Abby's attacks = how many dice do you have?
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Martel732 wrote: See how good chaos is? Not only do they have cookies, they make your characters bad ass!
Chaos is a kelly book, some outrageous cheese spaced in between a lot of mediocre units and more than enough epic fail units.
Griddlelol wrote: I'm fairly certain I know who'll win, but how would a Lone Wolf with Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Terminator Armor (not that that makes a difference here) fare against Abbadon. I'd do it myself, but I don't know Abbadon's stats.
its really pretty easy. Abby's WS = High Abby's S = 5 or 8 Abby's T = Plague Marine Abby's wounds = same as vect :( Abby's attacks = how many dice do you have?
With 3++ and FNP the LW is pretty hardy. Low attacks, but with Abbadon's T5 he gets to reroll to hit and wounds on 2+. While I don't expect the LW to win, I'm interested to see how many wounds the LW is likely to chip off him, and how many rounds he'd survive.
I know better than to ask what the exact numbers are for stats though -_-
Edit: Not sure if I'm correct, but I actually had the LW doing more wounds per round than Abaddon (1:0.7) for the initial round, then roughly the same thereafter. It's just that Abaddon has...well more wounds.
How about a well kitted wolf lord?
Runic Armour
Thunder Hammer
Storm Shield
Thunderwolf Mount
Wolftooth Necklace
Saga of the Beastslayer
Hits on 3s with rerolls, wounds on a 2, 2+/3++, T5 with 5A base (6 on the charge along with a HoW attack). T5 gets rid of the need for EW, and also frees up saga of the beastslayer for rerolls. Coming in at 245, he'll give Abby a run for his money!
Aleph-Sama wrote: How about a well kitted wolf lord?
Runic Armour
Thunder Hammer
Storm Shield
Thunderwolf Mount
Wolftooth Necklace
Saga of the Beastslayer
Hits on 3s with rerolls, wounds on a 2, 2+/3++, T5 with 5A base (6 on the charge along with a HoW attack). T5 gets rid of the need for EW, and also frees up saga of the beastslayer for rerolls. Coming in at 245, he'll give Abby a run for his money!
We just covered this last page.
They will, on average kill each other in the same round. However, this will never happen. Your not going to take saga of the beastslayer on your thunder wolf lord. If you do, every Ork Warboss will ID him. Your going to take saga of the bear.
Aleph-Sama wrote: How about a well kitted wolf lord?
Runic Armour
Thunder Hammer
Storm Shield
Thunderwolf Mount
Wolftooth Necklace
Saga of the Beastslayer
Hits on 3s with rerolls, wounds on a 2, 2+/3++, T5 with 5A base (6 on the charge along with a HoW attack). T5 gets rid of the need for EW, and also frees up saga of the beastslayer for rerolls. Coming in at 245, he'll give Abby a run for his money!
We just covered this last page.
They will, on average kill each other in the same round. However, this will never happen. Your not going to take saga of the beastslayer on your thunder wolf lord. If you do, every Ork Warboss will ID him. Your going to take saga of the bear.
Actually it will happen. I take Saga of the beast slayer more often now in 6th as it is usually more useful. Also, when I run with TWC I bring at least 3 TW lords, so I would have warrior born, beast slayer and bear saga lords
Red Corsair wrote: Actually it will happen. I take Saga of the beast slayer more often now in 6th as it is usually more useful. Also, when I run with TWC I bring at least 3 TW lords, so I would have warrior born, beast slayer and bear saga lords
Red Corsair wrote: Actually it will happen. I take Saga of the beast slayer more often now in 6th as it is usually more useful. Also, when I run with TWC I bring at least 3 TW lords, so I would have warrior born, beast slayer and bear saga lords
you replyed that no, a DP with a murder sword could not take the swarmlord, because he is generally immune to ID. This is like saying that no, a landraider has nothing to fear from a brick of necron warriors because generally landraiders are immune to small arms fire. See how that works out.
I suppose you didnt know anything about the murder sword, that it causes ID that the swarmlord cannot ignore and thus will likely kill the swarmlord pretty easily. Don't pass judgement if you dont know.
And then you realize what Iron Arm does, and your own argument rears its head against you, ready to devour you.
labmouse42 wrote: Summary Abbadon, simply put, is nearly the best IC in the game for duels. As an added bonus, he also can wreck entire squads at a time. While the CSM codex may be lack-luster in may ways, it is solid in one sense -- Abbadon will take any other IC's lunch money and send him home crying.
Sometimes luck does play a role, and Abbadon will die to a grot, but when doing mathammer we will go off averages.
So would it be bad to point out that I was able to down him this past Sunday with a squad of 9 Nobz, 1 Painboy, and an Ork Warboss?
What Happened:
Black Crusade rules/scenario. I had all of the Chaos off of the board except for Abbadon who'd deflected pretty much everything I threw at him at that point. All of the Chaos I had tabled the last turn came right back on over my HQ squad since I was deep into my opponent's deployment zone. He multi-assaulted with everything that he had and it came down to Abbadon vs a Nob, Nob with PK and Banner, and the Painboy, who were able to down him. Ultimately, it was the Power Klaw that took him down.
Points Cost:
Yes, all of that Orky Badness is in the 500pt price range. But when one considers that I still had about 210 points of Orks over 3 models still standing after going toe-to-toe with Abb (who is in the 400pt price range if I recall). 400+ Chaos Lord > 355 Orks was still a pretty good trade-off in my opinion.
DieselJester wrote: But when one considers that I still had about 210 points of Orks over 3 models still standing after going toe-to-toe with Abb (who is in the 400pt price range if I recall). 400+ Chaos Lord > 355 Orks was still a pretty good trade-off in my opinion.
labmouse42 wrote: Summary Abbadon, simply put, is nearly the best IC in the game for duels. As an added bonus, he also can wreck entire squads at a time. While the CSM codex may be lack-luster in may ways, it is solid in one sense -- Abbadon will take any other IC's lunch money and send him home crying.
Sometimes luck does play a role, and Abbadon will die to a grot, but when doing mathammer we will go off averages.
So would it be bad to point out that I was able to down him this past Sunday with a squad of 9 Nobz, 1 Painboy, and an Ork Warboss?
What Happened:
Black Crusade rules/scenario. I had all of the Chaos off of the board except for Abbadon who'd deflected pretty much everything I threw at him at that point. All of the Chaos I had tabled the last turn came right back on over my HQ squad since I was deep into my opponent's deployment zone. He multi-assaulted with everything that he had and it came down to Abbadon vs a Nob, Nob with PK and Banner, and the Painboy, who were able to down him. Ultimately, it was the Power Klaw that took him down.
Points Cost:
Yes, all of that Orky Badness is in the 500pt price range. But when one considers that I still had about 210 points of Orks over 3 models still standing after going toe-to-toe with Abb (who is in the 400pt price range if I recall). 400+ Chaos Lord > 355 Orks was still a pretty good trade-off in my opinion.
The point is character per character, not a squad. Many squads can take abby down, for far less than 500 points
abby is less than 300 points. He and a remotely competent squad will liquify your nobs while the warboss either sits out or fights a chump champion.
labmouse42 wrote: Summary Abbadon, simply put, is nearly the best IC in the game for duels. As an added bonus, he also can wreck entire squads at a time. While the CSM codex may be lack-luster in may ways, it is solid in one sense -- Abbadon will take any other IC's lunch money and send him home crying.
Sometimes luck does play a role, and Abbadon will die to a grot, but when doing mathammer we will go off averages.
So would it be bad to point out that I was able to down him this past Sunday with a squad of 9 Nobz, 1 Painboy, and an Ork Warboss?
What Happened:
Black Crusade rules/scenario. I had all of the Chaos off of the board except for Abbadon who'd deflected pretty much everything I threw at him at that point. All of the Chaos I had tabled the last turn came right back on over my HQ squad since I was deep into my opponent's deployment zone. He multi-assaulted with everything that he had and it came down to Abbadon vs a Nob, Nob with PK and Banner, and the Painboy, who were able to down him. Ultimately, it was the Power Klaw that took him down.
Points Cost:
Yes, all of that Orky Badness is in the 500pt price range. But when one considers that I still had about 210 points of Orks over 3 models still standing after going toe-to-toe with Abb (who is in the 400pt price range if I recall). 400+ Chaos Lord > 355 Orks was still a pretty good trade-off in my opinion.
The point is character per character, not a squad. Many squads can take abby down, for far less than 500 points
abby is less than 300 points. He and a remotely competent squad will liquify your nobs while the warboss either sits out or fights a chump champion.
*shrug* either way. Abby didn't just walk through my squad. Had it been a squad of just Boyz, then Abby woulda had a field day with them probably. I was just sad that I couldn't land a SAG shot on him and roll boxcars! LOL.
you replyed that no, a DP with a murder sword could not take the swarmlord, because he is generally immune to ID. This is like saying that no, a landraider has nothing to fear from a brick of necron warriors because generally landraiders are immune to small arms fire. See how that works out.
I suppose you didnt know anything about the murder sword, that it causes ID that the swarmlord cannot ignore and thus will likely kill the swarmlord pretty easily. Don't pass judgement if you dont know.
And then you realize what Iron Arm does, and your own argument rears its head against you, ready to devour you.
In that case then you are aware that the DP can get iron arm too? You give a DP iron arm and a black mace and you have one of the scariest CC monster possible.
you replyed that no, a DP with a murder sword could not take the swarmlord, because he is generally immune to ID. This is like saying that no, a landraider has nothing to fear from a brick of necron warriors because generally landraiders are immune to small arms fire. See how that works out.
I suppose you didnt know anything about the murder sword, that it causes ID that the swarmlord cannot ignore and thus will likely kill the swarmlord pretty easily. Don't pass judgement if you dont know.
And then you realize what Iron Arm does, and your own argument rears its head against you, ready to devour you.
In that case then you are aware that the DP can get iron arm too? You give a DP iron arm and a black mace and you have one of the scariest CC monster possible.
i wasnt aware that Swarmlords and Daemon Princes has a 100% chance to roll the "iron arms" power and cast it successfully every turn. Seems I need to do further investigation on the consequences.
Swarmlords have a very high chance of rolling Iron Arm every game. Add to that the fact that it will be cast successfully 11/12 times and it's extremely reliable.
Demon Princes have a smaller chance to get it in the first place and a lower chance to cast it every turn, significantly lower when within 12" of the Swarmlord. Not nearly as reliable.
10/12 times. Double sixes and 11's are bad. But you're right, swarmy has a very good chance of getting iron arm. DP you can never count on him rolling it as he only gets 2 rolls on biomancy at the most.
skycapt44 wrote: 10/12 times. Double sixes and 11's are bad. But you're right, swarmy has a very good chance of getting iron arm. DP you can never count on him rolling it as he only gets 2 rolls on biomancy at the most.
11 and 12 is 3 chances out of 36.
33/36 chance to succeed is 11/12.
This is a if they have whatever as far as I am aware. As for the casting factor with a spell familiar he rarely fails. Also if I really wanted to talk crazy I coulda said Iron Arm and Invisibility whaha. That would be truely insane. I am not trying to say its likely, just possible.
skycapt44 wrote: 10/12 times. Double sixes and 11's are bad. But you're right, swarmy has a very good chance of getting iron arm. DP you can never count on him rolling it as he only gets 2 rolls on biomancy at the most.
11 and 12 is 3 chances out of 36.
33/36 chance to succeed is 11/12.
Griddlelol wrote: I'm fairly certain I know who'll win, but how would a Lone Wolf with Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Terminator Armor (not that that makes a difference here) fare against Abbadon. I'd do it myself, but I don't know Abbadon's stats.
The Lone Wolf would probably be mulched before he could even strike, depending on how many attacks Abbadon throws out, but if he gets a chance to strike back then he'll probably put a wound or 2 on Abbadon... and then die next round.
rigeld2 wrote: Swarmlords have a very high chance of rolling Iron Arm every game. Add to that the fact that it will be cast successfully 11/12 times and it's extremely reliable.
Demon Princes have a smaller chance to get it in the first place and a lower chance to cast it every turn, significantly lower when within 12" of the Swarmlord. Not nearly as reliable.
And he has a 2/3 chance of getting Iron Arm in the first place. And if he gets Warp Speed or Endurance on top of that, then he's even more brutal.
With an estimate of 7 attacks (I don't know how many base attacks Abbadon has) at str:5, ap2, 3++, 5+ FNP is very resilient. I'd be surprised if Abaddon managed to put more than 1 wound down. I got him doing 0.73 wounds per round.
The math says he will survive 2-3 rounds, the second round hitting at initative 1 with Abaddon. So an 85pt model can knock off 1/2 of Abaddon's wounds, and 3 if he's lucky. Not bad at all.
Anybody already mentioned Skarbrand? I know he is no IC but the swarmlord was also mentioned so... Not considering stuff like Iron Arm Skarbrand will wipe the floor with both Abbaddon and the Swarmlod
labmouse42 wrote: What I found fascinating by this excercise was how bad the imperial ICs compared to the xenos ones. I would not have guessed it, but it seems xenos/chaos have the better ICs.
I would say thats only true if you are looking specifically at challenges.
From a tactical stand point of best army support and synergy the Imperium has some nice ICs.
2/ Even with Iron Arm, Skarbrand will still eat Swarmy
Nah, with Iron Arm the swarmlord will probably kill skarbrand, Skar would need to kill him in the charge otherwise there is a big chance that he dies.
does skarbrand inflict ID. I thought he just had fleshbane.
Fleshbane and Instant Death. Swarmy's in trouble if he doesn't get Iron Arm.
Yup, if he get its thou, he can take 2-3 wounds and them make a few wounds back to skarbrand and instakillhim
How can the Swarmlord take 2-3 wounds if each wound caused causes Instant Death? Skarbrand has a great chance at killing the Swarmlord if he gets the charged, a slightly smaller chance if he gets charged, and if he doesn't kill the Swarmlord then the swarmlord will kill him.
2/ Even with Iron Arm, Skarbrand will still eat Swarmy
Nah, with Iron Arm the swarmlord will probably kill skarbrand, Skar would need to kill him in the charge otherwise there is a big chance that he dies.
does skarbrand inflict ID. I thought he just had fleshbane.
Fleshbane and Instant Death. Swarmy's in trouble if he doesn't get Iron Arm.
Yup, if he get its thou, he can take 2-3 wounds and them make a few wounds back to skarbrand and instakillhim
How can the Swarmlord take 2-3 wounds if each wound caused causes Instant Death? Skarbrand has a great chance at killing the Swarmlord if he gets the charged, a slightly smaller chance if he gets charged, and if he doesn't kill the Swarmlord then the swarmlord will kill him.
He meant if the Swarmlord gets Ironarm, which is a pretty decent possibility with him having 4 powers.
2/ Even with Iron Arm, Skarbrand will still eat Swarmy
Nah, with Iron Arm the swarmlord will probably kill skarbrand, Skar would need to kill him in the charge otherwise there is a big chance that he dies.
does skarbrand inflict ID. I thought he just had fleshbane.
Fleshbane and Instant Death. Swarmy's in trouble if he doesn't get Iron Arm.
Yup, if he get its thou, he can take 2-3 wounds and them make a few wounds back to skarbrand and instakillhim
How can the Swarmlord take 2-3 wounds if each wound caused causes Instant Death? Skarbrand has a great chance at killing the Swarmlord if he gets the charged, a slightly smaller chance if he gets charged, and if he doesn't kill the Swarmlord then the swarmlord will kill him.
He meant if the Swarmlord gets Ironarm, which is a pretty decent possibility with him having 4 powers.
Totally thought it was Endurance that granted EW. My bad lol.
Skarbrand will beat the out of them all
I10 hitting on 3s wounding on 2s insta-killing no- one stands a chance
Sadly getting him in combat is a problem
C'mon. Another topic where people argue about Skarbrand vs Swarmlord. They're not ICsOP was talking about. Skarbrand would loose due to cheesy iron arm and fact that some bloodletter with cloak is eternal warrior while one of toughest BTs isn't.
hiveof_chimera wrote: Skarbrand will beat the out of them all
I10 hitting on 3s wounding on 2s insta-killing no- one stands a chance
Sadly getting him in combat is a problem
Mayhaps you should actually read the thread prior to necroing it.
Zagman wrote: Abbadon only has two extra attacks vs Typhus. Typhus also denies Abbadon's Charge bonus.
Remember the daemon weapon. Abbadon has between 2 and 8 more attacks than Typhus.
Typhus could be a real contender if he had EW and more attacks. Other than that he has a lot of the desireable traits.
In this case, its the lack of attacks that is his downfall. Typhus has 3 attacks. That means Abbadon has up to 366% more attacks than Typhus. That's why Typhus falls short.
Zagman wrote: Abbadon only has two extra attacks vs Typhus. Typhus also denies Abbadon's Charge bonus.
Remember the daemon weapon. Abbadon has between 2 and 8 more attacks than Typhus.
Typhus could be a real contender if he had EW and more attacks. Other than that he has a lot of the desireable traits.
In this case, its the lack of attacks that is his downfall. Typhus has 3 attacks. That means Abbadon has up to 366% more attacks than Typhus. That's why Typhus falls short.
Since this thread was started - a new eldar codex dropped. Its been awhile
What about Asurmen now?
WS7, 2+/4++ save, eternal warrior, I7 and the chance to kill abaddon before he swings as his S5 sword forces a leadership test that removes from abby from play.
He also gets d3 warlord traits, although I don't think most will be useful.
Theres a lot of variables. My gut feeling still says abby, although I'd be very interested in the possible outcomes.
Heheh. Although to get even more off topic on how much lunch money Abbadon is collecting, Typhus not having EW is a good example of how the smash rules seem poorly constructed. Typhus can't step to a Riptide, because it can easily ID him. How silly is that? I mean normally, he'll have a zombie/friend TDA/etc to die for him, it's still silly that a melee focused character cannot fight a ranged focused MC that costs less than he does.
I know he isn't a IC but you've done him before, he just needs updating. I'm talking about the Avatar of Khaine with his all new stat line and Powers! The obvious new one is Disarming Strike, which will remove the Claw 2/3 times because of higher WS so that means Abbadon would be wounding on 5's most of the time. Second choice would be either Crushing Blow to wound on 2's or Battle Fortune for a 4++. 5 Wounds at T6 is hard to get through if you take away that Claw, while WS and I 10 with high base attacks makes him deadly. Whats the thoughts?
Karandras (s8 I7) and Jain Zar (Abbadon has WS 2 vs her) have a slim chance.
Asurmen can ID Abbadon (Direswords are "remove from play") and with the right warlord trait (re-roll saves of 1) he can go toe-to-toe
Asurmen will go first with only 3 attacks, but at s5 and ap2, he has a pretty good chance. 4++ invul (essentially 3++ with the right save) and EW - he has a decent shot.
Other dudes:
Bjorn
Lukas the trickster
Stern (zone of banishment)
Wraithlord/Knight (super-high toughness)
hiveof_chimera wrote: Skarbrand will beat the out of them all
I10 hitting on 3s wounding on 2s insta-killing no- one stands a chance
Sadly getting him in combat is a problem
As I pointed out way back when this thread was started, a necron overlord with MSS, phase shifter, Warscythe, and res orb can take out anything more than 50% of the time.
Vs skarbrand, he must pass the 3d6 leadership test or he hits himself. With Ld10, that's a 50% chance to fail the test on 3d6.
The 50% of the time skarbrand passes his test, he still has to hit, wound, and after all that the overlord has a 3++ save and even if you kill him he has a 50% chance to just stand back up...
Zagman wrote: Abbadon only has two extra attacks vs Typhus. Typhus also denies Abbadon's Charge bonus.
Remember the daemon weapon. Abbadon has between 2 and 8 more attacks than Typhus.
Typhus could be a real contender if he had EW and more attacks. Other than that he has a lot of the desireable traits.
In this case, its the lack of attacks that is his downfall. Typhus has 3 attacks. That means Abbadon has up to 366% more attacks than Typhus. That's why Typhus falls short.
Typhus has a daemon weapon which evens out the discrepancy in their attacks slightly, and too boot hurts himself less!
But, I need to disagree with your conclusion that Abbadon takes Typhus's Lunch Money.
Abbadon either hits on 3s, wounds on 4s vs 5++ FNP or hitson 3s, wounds on 2s with rerolls vs 2+ FNP.
So ~.15 of Abby's attacks actually deal a wound with Drachnyn, its worse with the Talon of Horus.
Typhus hits on 4s, wounds on 3s vs a 4++ so ~.17 of his attacks deal a wound.
Abbadon only has two extra attacks vs Typhus. Typhus also denies Abbadon's Charge bonus.
Slight edge to Abbadon, but Typhus has a 2/3 chance of getting Gift of Contagion which turns the tables and makes the fight in Typhus' advantage.
Still a slight, and I mean slight edge to Abbandon, far from taking Typhus' lunch money.
abby also has 33% more wounds
abby will also be striking first, so will always get 1 extra round of combat to kill typhus before typhus gets to strike.
it's close, but Typhus is gonna lose his money more often than not
But, I need to disagree with your conclusion that Abbadon takes Typhus's Lunch Money.
Abbadon either hits on 3s, wounds on 4s vs 5++ FNP or hitson 3s, wounds on 2s with rerolls vs 2+ FNP.
So ~.15 of Abby's attacks actually deal a wound with Drachnyn, its worse with the Talon of Horus.
Typhus hits on 4s, wounds on 3s vs a 4++ so ~.17 of his attacks deal a wound.
Abbadon only has two extra attacks vs Typhus. Typhus also denies Abbadon's Charge bonus.
Slight edge to Abbadon, but Typhus has a 2/3 chance of getting Gift of Contagion which turns the tables and makes the fight in Typhus' advantage.
Still a slight, and I mean slight edge to Abbandon, far from taking Typhus' lunch money.
abby also has 33% more wounds
abby will also be striking first, so will always get 1 extra round of combat to kill typhus before typhus gets to strike.
it's close, but Typhus is gonna lose his money more often than not
abby will also be striking first, so will always get 1 extra round of combat to kill typhus before typhus gets to strike.
it's close, but Typhus is gonna lose his money more often than not
hiveof_chimera wrote: Skarbrand will beat the out of them all
I10 hitting on 3s wounding on 2s insta-killing no- one stands a chance
Sadly getting him in combat is a problem
Mayhaps you should actually read the thread prior to necroing it.
no i just didnt see the new posts so i was attempting to remake it as people might not want a new one
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out of them all
Now you just need luck to not scatter XD