I was going to compare it to the Questoris Knights which are £32 for two, but it's on a 60mm base so the 30k Castellax Battle-Automata at £46 each is possibly a better comparison. It's still a lot, especially considering the plastic Porphyrions are £30 for 2...
It's a full resin kit, unlikely they will be making a knockoff of that, best you could realistically hope from 3rd parties is conversion bits for the Porphyrion and end up with something like the conversions people have done in the past.
Most expensive thing for its size I think?... I have bought every release ever for AT but this one maybe a miss for me...just seems so much for so little.
2 Acastus for GW is $84 but one of these guys is $92 (all AU) wtf? and is probably mostly resin? (harder to work with)?
JWBS wrote: It's a full resin kit, unlikely they will be making a knockoff of that, best you could realistically hope from 3rd parties is conversion bits for the Porphyrion and end up with something like the conversions people have done in the past.
JWBS wrote: It's a full resin kit, unlikely they will be making a knockoff of that, best you could realistically hope from 3rd parties is conversion bits for the Porphyrion and end up with something like the conversions people have done in the past.
Wasn't referring to a knockoff as Battlebling has so far only produced alternative parts and weapons for Titanicus. For example, they have alternative lances and plating for the Cerastus.
Yeah but this new Asterius seems to be all resin, so if there's gonna be a BB Asterius it will have to be a knockoff Asterius or alternate parts to stick onto a Porphyrion, at which point it's more Porphyrion than Asterius (unless I suppose they invent a new torso and arms to add to Porphyrion legs, I'd bet against them doing that though).
JWBS wrote: Yeah but this new Asterius seems to be all resin, so if there's gonna be a BB Asterius it will have to be a knockoff Asterius or alternate parts to stick onto a Porphyrion, at which point it's more Porphyrion than Asterius (unless I suppose they invent a new torso and arms to add to Porphyrion legs, I'd bet against them doing that though).
Thing is that the Asterius' arms just look weird, give its guns in a similar way to the Porphyrion and I might like it better. But that said...why spend 40 quid on such a model if you can get the plastic Porphyrion with these guns.
Just curious but where does one get those pieces from? I've seen them before somehere...
JWBS wrote: Yeah but this new Asterius seems to be all resin, so if there's gonna be a BB Asterius it will have to be a knockoff Asterius or alternate parts to stick onto a Porphyrion, at which point it's more Porphyrion than Asterius (unless I suppose they invent a new torso and arms to add to Porphyrion legs, I'd bet against them doing that though).
I see your logic there and haven't really anything else to add.
May not be an easy conversion actually, I had assumed they were bog standard AM bits from a Kataphron or something, but apparently they're from FW Myrmidons and Laurnean terminators. I think if I ever make any I'll just use Kataphron weapons or something else.
JWBS wrote: May not be an easy conversion actually, I had assumed they were bog standard AM bits from a Kataphron or something, but apparently they're from FW Myrmidons and Laurnean terminators. I think if I ever make any I'll just use Kataphron weapons or something else.
Which is why the Vanguard Miniatures' bits might be an easier route to take. Just the hull mounted secondary weapons have to be turned into Volkites though...
JWBS wrote: May not be an easy conversion actually, I had assumed they were bog standard AM bits from a Kataphron or something, but apparently they're from FW Myrmidons and Laurnean terminators. I think if I ever make any I'll just use Kataphron weapons or something else.
Which is why the Vanguard Miniatures' bits might be an easier route to take. Just the hull mounted secondary weapons have to be turned into Volkites though...
JWBS wrote: It's a full resin kit, unlikely they will be making a knockoff of that, best you could realistically hope from 3rd parties is conversion bits for the Porphyrion and end up with something like the conversions people have done in the past.
Looking forward most of all to the lore for some of the undercooked Legios like Interfector, Mordaxis, Magna, Vulpa, etc. Hoping for some rules buffs for Mordaxis + Tempestus + Krytos as well but it's not the end of the world if they aren't changed.
Indeed. Thunderhawks and Fire raptors as well, plus Chalnath.
I'm excited for the Thunderhawks. I'm printing out some of the large landing pads from the Grimdark Terrain set and I'm hoping that the Thawks will fit nicely on them for my spaceport set up for AT.
I'm excited for the Thunderhawks. I'm printing out some of the large landing pads from the Grimdark Terrain set and I'm hoping that the Thawks will fit nicely on them for my spaceport set up for AT.
Intact Thunderhawks on landing pads? What heresy is this? It's not a proper AT / Epic scale Thawk unless it's a crashed wreck objective. I'm sure it says so in the rulebook.
xttz wrote: Someone asked on Facebook about Warmaster weapon sprues being sold separately and got this reply from FW:
We haven't heard about one for now but if we do we will let you know.
:(
The Facebook team have exactly one answer to questions that haven’t already been answered directly on WarCom and it’s that. They are not permitted to even admit to knowing pre-release information for unannounced products, much less give it out. I will not debate whether this is a “good” policy or not - it is what it is.
But yeah, you’re basically shaking a magic 8-ball and waiting to see if it comes up with a ninth answer.
I'm excited for the Thunderhawks. I'm printing out some of the large landing pads from the Grimdark Terrain set and I'm hoping that the Thawks will fit nicely on them for my spaceport set up for AT.
Intact Thunderhawks on landing pads? What heresy is this? It's not a proper AT / Epic scale Thawk unless it's a crashed wreck objective. I'm sure it says so in the rulebook.
Jokes aside, I hope you post some pics!
I will! My friend is working on the landing pads, hopefully I'll have the prints in a couple of weeks.
I think the AT models are the absolute best GW is making right now so I always found the rumor of it getting axed hard to believe. Especially when they can so easily upscale any models they make for it to full scale resin versions. There’s still plenty of room for the game to grow, be it with variant patterns of existing titans, new titans or knights, corrupted titans and knights, or xenos titans
chaos0xomega wrote: How much more life does Blood Bowl have in it? Surely they have to be running out of teams and concepts to release by now?
I wonder if, once they finish with old world teams, they'll move into doing some Mortal Realms ones. Stormcast and Kharadron certainly could look the part.
chaos0xomega wrote: How much more life does Blood Bowl have in it? Surely they have to be running out of teams and concepts to release by now?
I wonder if, once they finish with old world teams, they'll move into doing some Mortal Realms ones. Stormcast and Kharadron certainly could look the part.
The obvious solution is Adeptus Titanicus teams for Blood Bowl.
Overread wrote: I refuse to believe that until it has Tyranids
Come on XENOS TITANS!
I reckon Orks and Eldar are much more likely given the Horus Heresy setting and the classic factions from old Titanicus (and those are unlikely).
They did do a bit of playtesting for Orks during AT's development IIRC, just in case they ever got around to them.
However I do agree that everything is better with Tyranids.
Well, after release of the Traitor Legios book, they really have a blank slate for what they want to do next. They could keep doing campaign books, a new rule book, or any number of pet projects...
chaos0xomega wrote: How much more life does Blood Bowl have in it? Surely they have to be running out of teams and concepts to release by now?
There's at least a year of "classic" teams remaining, plus (hopefully) at least one more plastic Big Guy and a boatload of resin Star Players.
Off-hand, we could do with a plastic version of the Amazon, Chaos Dwarf, High Elf, Khemri and Norse teams, ideally along with a plastic Minotaur. I'm not going to try to work out which Star Players still need a modern sculpt, even ignoring the ones introduced in the Spike! Magazine series.
Equally, the Imperial Nobility, Black Orc and Khorne teams have shown they have ideas for new teams - and as long as they add to the game, I'm all for that.
there exist plans to merge AT and AI into a Game like Epic but Covid and
the caused release backlog with all it's issues slow this down (same with
Gothic or other specialist games).
There're exist also plans in the drawer for expansion(s) to introduce
airplanes, tanks and infantry as rudimentary support options (does someone
remember that PC Game for AT?) but this is possible halted.
chaos0xomega wrote: How much more life does Blood Bowl have in it? Surely they have to be running out of teams and concepts to release by now?
There’s still six “teams of legend” left that need models plus the creation of the khorne team implies that tzeentch and slaanesh teams to go with the existing Nurgle one are at least possible. Then there’s the recent Cathay fluff overhaul to consider drawing from. And that’s before they decide to get really wacky like a Zoat/fishmen team or a Fimir team or what have you. Not even touching the AoS stuff.
via excellent sources on Faeit 212 Hi Gary, a little statement about Adeptus Titanicus.
Whatever People tell, AT will not de discontinued. It's the best running specialist game, even more than Bloodbowl.
At first I read this and went "what?" because that seemed hard to believe. Titanicus is pretty popular-ish around my end (games aren't on the regular, but you can ask for one and get a good deal of responses), but Blood Bowl usually has at least one league going across several clubs/stores and it doesn't feel like a unique situation when I've looked elsewhere.
When I thought about it, if it is true, I do wonder if that has a lot to do with everybody buying the same models (except maybe the Psi-Titan) as everybody else. If you've no interest in starting an Ogre or Wood Elf or Imperial Noble team you've no reason to ever buy them or their peripherals, but no matter what Titan Legio you're playing (sans Audax) if you're committed to the game you're probably buying at least one of each new release.
Of course it's coming from Faeit, so the source on that is "dude trust me" and as reliable as the 4chan anon claiming Titanicus was selling so poorly it'd be taken out back next year.
there exist plans to merge AT and AI into a Game like Epic but Covid and
the caused release backlog with all it's issues slow this down (same with
Gothic or other specialist games).
There're exist also plans in the drawer for expansion(s) to introduce
airplanes, tanks and infantry as rudimentary support options (does someone
remember that PC Game for AT?) but this is possible halted.
Gotta love rumours like this that can never be debumked. "They were going to do something but now they're not".
there exist plans to merge AT and AI into a Game like Epic but Covid and
the caused release backlog with all it's issues slow this down (same with
Gothic or other specialist games).
There're exist also plans in the drawer for expansion(s) to introduce
airplanes, tanks and infantry as rudimentary support options (does someone
remember that PC Game for AT?) but this is possible halted.
I dunno, to me that sounds more like someone's wishlist. More so because it's basically an unprovable "They planned to do things, but they ain't."
Far as I recall we never heard in the past that Epic wasn't profitable; nor Warmaster. It's just that neither was profitable enough compared ot other things the company could invest in.
With GW being basically flush with cash and more acutely aware that each time they drop a game it leaves a huge vent for a 3rd party to fill and grow into. Especially today with Kickstarter and 3D printing both allowing much smaller to non-existent firms to gain access to enough resources to push into the market in a serious way.
So I could see GW of today investing into Epic and even a Warmaster style game in the future. Sure they wouldn't be as profitable as "more marines" but they leave less money on the table for the competition; bring more under the GW umbrella and GW are at a stage where they like as not really can't invest any more into marines in a sensible way. They've got the excess investment potential.
via excellent sources on Faeit 212
Hi Gary,
a little statement about Adeptus Titanicus.
Whatever People tell, AT will not de discontinued. It's the best running
specialist game, even more than Bloodbowl.
Well...seeing faeit is not below inventing up rumours from "reliable sources" to draw clicks for the ad revenue...yea right. Give me more reliable source tyvm.
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Saaka wrote: I think the AT models are the absolute best GW is making right now so I always found the rumor of it getting axed hard to believe. Especially when they can so easily upscale any models they make for it to full scale resin versions. There’s still plenty of room for the game to grow, be it with variant patterns of existing titans, new titans or knights, corrupted titans and knights, or xenos titans
Easy as in design it from nearly scratch It's about 80-90% redone from scratch when they turn model to new scale.
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Overread wrote: Far as I recall we never heard in the past that Epic wasn't profitable; nor Warmaster. It's just that neither was profitable enough compared ot other things the company could invest in.
Well...for it to be non-profitable GW would have had to green light with ASSUMPTION that they will be losing cash. I seriously doubt "yeah I know we are going to lose money but go ahead" is what GW bosses would say so it's pretty safe to say they were at least planning SOME profit if sales go as per their expectations.
And then they sold 400% of their own expectations.
So...yeah. I think it is safe to say it was profitable.
But not Space Marine level of profitable. For Kirby everything needs to sell as much space marines. That's why GW decided to kill FB that was top-3 selling miniature game when AOS was greenlighted.
And worse...there was even danger that it might reduce marine sales! The horror! That can't be done. Space Marines Is The Hobby.
I think some of Kirby's polices were sensible in the early days. He did straighten the company finances out when GW wasn't anywhere near as flush with cash as they are now.
It's just I feel that he had a very singular approach that didn't evolve over time. Furthermore as time went on the upper management team became increasingly distanced from the hobby, the customers and the general fanbase. "we don't need marketing research" because all they were looking at were the sales numbers. Which without context just said "marines marines more marines!" and "boutique models".
chaos0xomega wrote: How much more life does Blood Bowl have in it? Surely they have to be running out of teams and concepts to release by now?
Bare minimum; a year and a half or so for the full releases for the existing Teams of Legend and that's without the likely addition of 2 more Chaos 'Chosen of' teams and probably something to replace Slann/Kislev (which may end up just being an official Kislev roster). Plus whatever other new teams they can come up with (4 of the past 5 teams released have been new) and the inevitable addition of a Dungeonbowl expansion.
there exist plans to merge AT and AI into a Game like Epic but Covid and
the caused release backlog with all it's issues slow this down (same with
Gothic or other specialist games).
There're exist also plans in the drawer for expansion(s) to introduce
airplanes, tanks and infantry as rudimentary support options (does someone
remember that PC Game for AT?) but this is possible halted.
Yeah, that one needs a pile of salt.
It just doesn't fit with anything the developers have said in past interviews.
They've strongly maintained that AT is a game of Titans, and they have no interest in doing Epic again.
While I'd love to see Epic return, it isn't their plan.
there exist plans to merge AT and AI into a Game like Epic but Covid and
the caused release backlog with all it's issues slow this down (same with
Gothic or other specialist games).
There're exist also plans in the drawer for expansion(s) to introduce
airplanes, tanks and infantry as rudimentary support options (does someone
remember that PC Game for AT?) but this is possible halted.
Yeah, that one needs a pile of salt.
It just doesn't fit with anything the developers have said in past interviews.
They've strongly maintained that AT is a game of Titans, and they have no interest in doing Epic again.
While I'd love to see Epic return, it isn't their plan.
If some people are willing to not trust Faeit212, why then are they willing to trust developers, when gaming developers (in all forms of gaming, not just GW) have constantly been shown to either lie, misdirect or stretch the truth? In my view the dev team is no more trustworthy than the Faeit212 team, or random Anon. Heck, I remember when people were saying the leaks with all the BT and Custodes stuff were total BS, yet here we are, with 100% of that rumor thus far true. Who knows what the company is thinking from one month to the other. Heck! 2018 feels like a decade ago, yet it's only been three years.
The statement, that they never will make Epic again or expand AT with other Stuff like Warplanes is invalid when you look that some Titans in the Game have AA-Weapons and the Design Studio rescaled Legio Astartes Tanks to 8mm.
It's like:
"We don't plan to build a Wall"
"This rumour is a lie, Party A would never constitue a gouverment with Party B"
GW generally doesn't pre-release info until something is in the bag ready to go. The only time they've broken with that was with Old World and that's an extremely special case.
Furthermore specialist games (esp AT) were gambles on seeing how they'd do. They've generally been seen to do really well so its worked; but GW has been careful to not promise anything that they don't deliver on.
So yep even if they really want to do epic; even if they are laying ground work like AA guns on titans; even if they've got AT and AN sharing a scale along with terrain features - they won't admit to Epic being on the cards till its on the cards ready to ship.
Because you never know something like a Global Pandemic could hit and put plans back 5 years; Old World could sell like a storm and put back side production another 5 years; Dave could trip whilst carrying the computer all the epic stuff is stored on in an office move and send it flying down the stairs and destroy all the work...... setting the project back 6 years
Overread wrote: GW generally doesn't pre-release info until something is in the bag ready to go. The only time they've broken with that was with Old World and that's an extremely special case.
Furthermore specialist games (esp AT) were gambles on seeing how they'd do. They've generally been seen to do really well so its worked; but GW has been careful to not promise anything that they don't deliver on.
So yep even if they really want to do epic; even if they are laying ground work like AA guns on titans; even if they've got AT and AN sharing a scale along with terrain features - they won't admit to Epic being on the cards till its on the cards ready to ship.
Because you never know something like a Global Pandemic could hit and put plans back 5 years; Old World could sell like a storm and put back side production another 5 years; Dave could trip whilst carrying the computer all the epic stuff is stored on in an office move and send it flying down the stairs and destroy all the work...... setting the project back 6 years
Without harping on it too much because I don't want to derail the thread, but yes. It hit me recently when I went to the grocery store and saw ground beef at 9USD per pound alongside a sign that mandates one package per customer due to national shortages. This dang virus has really touched everything and I wouldn't at all be surprised if it takes 3-5 years for companies (GW included) to get back into the swing of things.
I personally, would really like a revamp of 30K. IMO Apocalypse was never well executed in normal 40K because the size of the models just made collecting, transport and set-up/play a nightmare. I got to play it once and after the fourth hour I was so over it and we'd barely made it half way through turn 1. But something like epic 6MM scale could capture the same feel without having to spend a weekend on a 3-4 turn game! And I think there is a bigger market for such a game than probably GW or most players realize. No data for that, it's just a feeling from 7 years worth of hobby talk online and irl.
Well, it's in their hands anyway. They'll either make it or they won't.
Adding AA guns to titans isn't likely intended to hint at epic, but to keep consistency with the 28mm versions at first, and fidelity to the original epic design ideas. The beetle back warlord came with carapace multilaser mounts, and the emperor had a bunch of point defense artillery and battlecannons. The 28mm warlord and newer designs have simply been integrating appropriate point defense loadouts.
I do wish that if the warhound and reaver ever get remastered that they would add some ardex mounts.
To anyone that has the Loyalist Legios book,
How much background information is there on the legions and houses? I've got one of the other books and all it has is a paragraph of background on each legion and then the traits, stratagems, and wargear rules. the knights are about a quarter page and the qualities rules. Is this all the background that the listing on GW site refers to?
lord_blackfang wrote: Can someone tell me when and where exactly the transfer sheets will pop up for preorder? Looks like indys can't get them?
Without knowing your region, I can't give an exact time.
But you'll be able to see them under the "Preorders" section of the webstore...which annoyingly is locked down now because of prep for Chalnath and has the queue system up.
Man, it's disappointing they couldn't fix the points on these things. 210pts is just way too low given the main weapon being a 4 shot S9 3 to 5 inch blast weapon. It's cool that they added simulacrum, the volkites seem like an after thought. The biggest problem is there are now 2 sets of rules for the asterius because the other acastus terminals have both.
When it comes to the Acastus, here is a recommendation for the magna and conversion cannons; Reduce the attack dice by half( 2 dice ), but increase the strength by +1.
Basically each pair of cannons( a pair for each arm ) work in a coordinated strike fashion( +1 strength for each additional cannon-weapon ) to effectively make a stronger, single cannon. This results in less blast rolls( too many are soul destroying for many players ) and also gives the target a break by not being hit by so many blast templates. It would be 1-2 blasts instead of 1-4.
The paired trait seems grey-area for weapons with less than 4 attacks, but with only a single dice attack then just apply the obscured rules on page 33 and leave it at that. We're using the cannons in a coordinated strike fashion anyway, and if a target is obscured then modifers are common sense. Walter will be the only one around here who cares about the rules in this case*.
Anyway, give it a try and see how it goes. The Acastus will punch a little harder but not as often.
* Actually, Mr Sobchak has a gun. Maybe we should call the whole thing off...
Crablezworth wrote: Man, it's disappointing they couldn't fix the points on these things. 210pts is just way too low given the main weapon being a 4 shot S9 3 to 5 inch blast weapon. It's cool that they added simulacrum, the volkites seem like an after thought. The biggest problem is there are now 2 sets of rules for the asterius because the other acastus terminals have both.
Isn't it just. They could drop the blast and have 4 dice variable strength depending on range. That'd do it pretty much
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmmm
So, hands up those of us who'll ignore this bizarre limiting of weapons?
Honestly, it's pathetic. It's hard enough to swallow the fluff about the warmaster, but now there's a "second" warmaster that can't swap weapons with the first warmaster, did the mechanicum keep this second variant from the emperor too? Like I'm impressed the idiots running this game even had the foresight to give the chainsword bypass. Still though, this is a sore point for the game, and totally absurd in a game which's main selling point is the modular nature of the kits, like they have the room for magnets on this one too... what exactly is the point if it won't ever be swapping its arms out? GW didn't have the balls to try this crap with the warlord kits, its just petty.
Warmaster fluff is fine. Pretty basic and inoffensive. They've done way more egregious stuff in the past. What's so terrible about it for you and what would be so much better if you'd have written it?
Sherrypie wrote: That Inferno Cannon typo though... 7 shots at Str 3
Yeah right, get it together guys.
It just feels like no one there even plays the damn game, sad.
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JWBS wrote: Warmaster fluff is fine. Pretty basic and inoffensive. They've done way more egregious stuff in the past. What's so terrible about it for you and what would be so much better if you'd have written it?
I dunno. As far as I remember it was generic grimdark boilerplate stuff. "The Warmaster is an ancient and rare device of terrible power dating back from the earliest Crusade era times, first seen on planet X during the battle of Y" etc etc, that type of thing. Nothing especially jarring or embarrassing, from what I can recall. No ham-fisted retcon either.
JWBS wrote: I dunno. As far as I remember it was generic grimdark boilerplate stuff. "The Warmaster is an ancient and rare device of terrible power dating back from the earliest Crusade era times, first seen on planet X during the battle of Y" etc etc, that type of thing. Nothing especially jarring or embarrassing, from what I can recall. No ham-fisted retcon either.
It made no sense, it was a super secret titan that even the mechanicum barely spoke of, that was only on mars and it's creation is shrouded in mystery, but also, every legio has one. It's that secret. It honestly doesn't bother me, what bothers me is terrible choices made by the the ones running the design at gw affecting the quality and enjoyment of the game for increasingly arbitrary reasons. Having bad fluff isn't the end of the world until the choices affect the game. Especially aspects of the game that are fundamentally at its core.
Right, but what's the alternative then? A detailed retcon that fully explains why there were no Warmasters before but there are now? How would you do that, exactly? I mean, apart from the widely acclaimed Primaris™ retcon ofc. Isn't it just better to say "Yeah these things were originally made on planet Forgeworld Omega 6 but you haven't seen much of them (because they didn't exist up until now, it's a brand new miniature) but the model is pretty great so here's a short paragraph or two to give them some history, I know you're all gonna love this new mini" like they do with most other stuff? Far preferable to the weak ass full fat retcon style stuff they tried with the Primaris, really no comparison, the short and sweet method is safer and likely more palatable for most people too.
The biggest problem is there are now 2 sets of rules for the asterius because the other acastus terminals have both.
Its a problem for players who converted their Porphyrions, but not for those who purchase the official Asterius model. But there are things to consider going forward...
As we've had the revised titan discount bundle with slim terminals, we might see a similar bundle for knights soon( maybe Christmas? ). If that includes slim terminals then it would make sense to update it to not include rules for a Forgeworld product that GW will no longer be supporting.
Also, it was mentioned in Defence of Ryza that Renegade knights will be covered in a future expansion; that would be an ideal time to update the current knight terminal set; perhaps this time it will be 2 Questoris, 2 Cerastus & 1 Acastus-Porphyrion. I have a feeling that a new expansion for Knights is next maybe along with expanded rules for freeblades? They also mentioned at one point the possibility that FW could release knight-world monsters...
Its fair to say that where Titan players now have a good amount of plastic titans to choose from, knights have only three and so its really high time for a new plastic knight such as the Armiger or Dominus. Maybe they might keep the current knight terminal set but replace the Acastus one with Armiger/Domius/Acastus?
Also - sorry to ramble on - but there is the case of the missing Rapier Scout Titan! Scout titans and Knights go together like peas and carrots so...the next expansion could possibly squeeze in the Rapier - especially if it enjoys melee combat like the knights.
Alas, I see nothing else in the crystal ball and will retire for the evening...
I personally like the idea that the main reason it is a secret is just because the forge worlds want to keep them in their pocket. No, of course it's not a different class of titan that would be helpful fighting in the great crusade, it's just a nemesis warlord siege titan testbed. No reason to send them out when we are sending plenty of warlords and reivers already, and we/they are safer if they just stay at home.
JWBS wrote: Right, but what's the alternative then?
Not doing it all again, that's the lesson.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MajorWesJanson wrote: I personally like the idea that the main reason it is a secret is just because the forge worlds want to keep them in their pocket. No, of course it's not a different class of titan that would be helpful fighting in the great crusade, it's just a nemesis warlord siege titan testbed. No reason to send them out when we are sending plenty of warlords and reivers already, and we/they are safer if they just stay at home.
They never explain in the initial warmaster fluff how something held secret only on mars was all of a sudden in every single legio's arsenal, now they're literally doing that again, and if only the fluff suffered I wouldn't care, its not just the fluff suffering for having to pretend this is some whole new titan, it's the game suffering. You can't swap arms or even the ancillary reactors with the warmaster, this isn't good for the game and it's a really weird way to go with a 160$ model.
The biggest problem is there are now 2 sets of rules for the asterius because the other acastus terminals have both.
Its a problem for players who converted their Porphyrions,
It's a problem for GW, not them. They never saw fit to fix the acastus terminals and still have the audacity to sell them in boxes of 5... literally 5. So as an owner of said terminal, I have every intention of using it until they update it, which they haven't seen fit to do as of yet.
The iconoclast titan is like if when they released the second warlord box, they made it a warlord "weshamelesstothelast" class titan, wrote some terrible fluff explaining why you can't swap weapons with the other warlord because reasons and said give us money. They sold the warlord sprues separately and ruleswise didn't make up some bs to not allow you to swap weapons from one warlord to another.
The new warmaster, they're not selling the sprue, so even people who don't play, pure modelling wise who just want to add to their existing warmaster can't do that either. Also, marketing wise it demands that its its own thing, they're gonna send it to a bunch of people who likely already painted the last warmaster and ask them to do a whole new one, just because they came up with some arms, a new head and a new carapace weapon.
"Things held secret appearing all over the place" is both trivial and often alluded to in the lore, that's a non-issue entirely. Especially so in the Heresy texts, where it's written canon that new experimental tech popped up on both sides and was immediately put on production by their enemies since the Mechanicum civil war raged on in the galactic information network their shrines had.
The non-interchangeability with the basic Warmaster is stupid, but still pretty low on the ladder of things to be too fussed about.
Sherrypie wrote: "Things held secret appearing all over the place" is both trivial and often alluded to in the lore, that's a non-issue entirely. Especially so in the Heresy texts, where it's written canon that new experimental tech popped up on both sides and was immediately put on production by their enemies since the Mechanicum civil war raged on in the galactic information network their shrines had.
The non-interchangeability with the basic Warmaster is stupid, but still pretty low on the ladder of things to be too fussed about.
It's pretty indefensible, honestly.
It would be like defending this if they did the same when releasing the second warlord box
Reading lots of moaning about not being able to swap out the weapons. Anyone care to explain the reason why you can't, they all look pretty modular enough.
TheSecretSquig wrote: Reading lots of moaning about not being able to swap out the weapons. Anyone care to explain the reason why you can't, they all look pretty modular enough.
Its more that the rules do not support mixing and matching loadouts.
TheSecretSquig wrote: Reading lots of moaning about not being able to swap out the weapons. Anyone care to explain the reason why you can't, they all look pretty modular enough.
They're modular, but rules don't allow for swapping out weapons. So you can't have a Warmaster with a Plasma and a Chainsword, for example.
It's a problem for GW, not them. They never saw fit to fix the acastus terminals and still have the audacity to sell them in boxes of 5... literally 5. So as an owner of said terminal, I have every intention of using it until they update it, which they haven't seen fit to do as of yet.
When using the Asterius in more official venues( such as tournaments ) then its going to be a problem for the player; they'll expect the most updated rules that support official models. As the Asterius now comes bundled with those rules then they'll go with that. GW can just sit back and say "Forgeworld provides the model and latest rules for the Asterius. Here's a link to their site and you can order it right now".
I definitely agree that the Acastus Terminal set is a big problem that should have been addressed by now...
For me I just gimped the terminal image from the GW site and coupled it with the FAQ rules. But if GW wants me to purchase that terminal set and further Porphyrion kits then they must ditch the auxilary rule. I can totally get behind GW by drastrically increasing their point values and halving their banner size( they were definitely wrong and had to be fixed ) but the auxiliary rule just doesn't make sense at all - especially when it affects the sales of that kit and the Acastus terminal pack. But if the bean-counters at GW are happy with the sales results thus far then its all good for them.
But from day one I knew that the Porphyrion rules would change and the Terminal set is a waste of money. In hind sight I'm glad I held back in that regard.
I fully expect to see the separate weapon cards & command terminal products being scrapped before too long, and instead the original titan & knight kits will be reboxed to include thin card ones.
If they were *that* profitable GW would have kept selling heavy cardstock accessories for the newer releases, but I suspect that supply issues in recent years make it easier to use the lighter versions instead.
once it's secret enough nobody who might actually use it is in the know, and the really senior people who do know about it aren't the ones involved in the ground level planning and exection of battle plans
JWBS wrote: Reddit people are saying they haven't seen Warmaster pre-order on EU/UK yet (when I checked today), but it's apparently up on US and Antipodes.
I hope that it’s because they’ve received such a backlash over the no mixing Warmaster weapons ridiculousness that they’ve pulled the release until they reprint the card
zedmeister wrote: I hope that it’s because they’ve received such a backlash over the no mixing Warmaster weapons ridiculousness that they’ve pulled the release until they reprint the card
Has GW ever reprinted anything in the past few years, instead of just pushing out a FAQ?
I was really hoping that there would be another budle with some good savings. Slightly annoyed I didn't get the last one as it included all the models I did not currently own.
Guess I'll just wait till Christmas to see if anything shows up!
I'd say there's a very good chance of a Titanicus xmas bundle. The mid-year maniple bundle was pretty much the best bundle they're ever done for any system imo and it was just randomly thrown out there, I gotta assume it would have been meant for xmas 2020 but got delayed.
It's a problem for GW, not them. They never saw fit to fix the acastus terminals and still have the audacity to sell them in boxes of 5... literally 5. So as an owner of said terminal, I have every intention of using it until they update it, which they haven't seen fit to do as of yet.
When using the Asterius in more official venues( such as tournaments ) then its going to be a problem for the player; they'll expect the most updated rules that support official models. As the Asterius now comes bundled with those rules then they'll go with that. GW can just sit back and say "Forgeworld provides the model and latest rules for the Asterius. Here's a link to their site and you can order it right now".
It's not that simple, the old terminal allows mixing and matching of both types as its one unit, so until they make a new porphyrion only terminal, they've got a real pickle on their hands.
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xttz wrote: I fully expect to see the separate weapon cards & command terminal products being scrapped before too long, and instead the original titan & knight kits will be reboxed to include thin card ones.
If they were *that* profitable GW would have kept selling heavy cardstock accessories for the newer releases, but I suspect that supply issues in recent years make it easier to use the lighter versions instead.
The sad part is the thin paper ones are more of a headache than the nicer cardstock ones, it's unfortunate because I don't mind paying for the nicer terminals seeing as they get used and are central to every game.
I think what's happening here is GW no longer likes the modularity because of battle bling and other third party options.
TheSecretSquig wrote: Reading lots of moaning about not being able to swap out the weapons. Anyone care to explain the reason why you can't, they all look pretty modular enough.
They're modular, but rules don't allow for swapping out weapons. So you can't have a Warmaster with a Plasma and a Chainsword, for example.
Which is all this humble princeps wanted dare I say :(
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xttz wrote: There's a Facebook reply saying the Iconoclast is delayed by a week for some regions
What's weird too is the locations, like it's inverse of what we'd think in terms of distance from uk and general supply chain stuff, it's also apparently causing confusion because it's direct only but the retailers weren't all told the same thing so some took pre orders.
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Marshal Loss wrote: Any reviews posted for the Traitor Legios book yet? Eagerly waiting to see what tweaks have been made.
My guess is goonhammer should have something soon, maybe wed?
It's not that simple, the old terminal allows mixing and matching of both types as its one unit, so until they make a new porphyrion only terminal, they've got a real pickle on their hands.
If the host of an event says that the FW terminal is the requirement then it would be that simple; the player would have to use the FW terminal. They can also make it that only the official model is allowed too, should they be really draconian about it.
It's not that simple, the old terminal allows mixing and matching of both types as its one unit, so until they make a new porphyrion only terminal, they've got a real pickle on their hands.
If the host of an event says that the FW terminal is the requirement then it would be that simple; the player would have to use the FW terminal. They can also make it that only the official model is allowed too, should they be really draconian about it.
Or they ban it all together, which hasn't exactly been uncommon. I know I don't want to field mine unless my opponent either field one of theirs or is okay with it. Even then, feels so undercosted. Some places also ban the porphyrions too much for the same reason. This is something they had a c hance to address and again chose to sell models over choices made for the betterment of the game. Poor stewardship on gw's part sadly.
They had a chance to update it and remove blast or at least make it much more expensive, they did neither. Upsetting. I like that they added auto simulacra, but the reality is, it got even better and went up all of 10pts. I also don't see events solely banning non official ones if they do indeed allow them. Seens too vindictive for something that's had a terminal and no model for a few years til now, people rightfully converted their own after that much waiting.
For what its worth, I'm actually all for using whatever rules are to hand and house-ruling if the situation calls for it. I have a soft-spot for conversions and scratch builds and if you brought your converted Porphyrions to my table then you would be most welcome. Beers in the fridge, Pringles in the cupboard.
SamusDrake wrote: For what its worth, I'm actually all for using whatever rules are to hand and house-ruling if the situation calls for it. I have a soft-spot for conversions and scratch builds and if you brought your converted Porphyrions to my table then you would be most welcome. Beers in the fridge, Pringles in the cupboard.
I'm sure we'd get along and have some good games. And pringles rock!
In my case in terms of gaming locally, like I've been trying very hard to get people here to play and when GW does stuff like this, it's really demoralizing. It feels like I'm selling a story of "they've changed man, they made a really great game this time and they seem to be supporting it pretty well" and now it just feels like I have to apologize for gw as if they're a friend whose fallen off the horse so to speak. "He's changed man" "Wasn't he arrested last week for fraud" "Well ya but ya see that was the person who he was defrauding's fault so". I dunno, tired of apologizing for GW just to keep people in the game. I've got one friend who has stopped playing AT and it's directly because of GW, I can't sadly just tell him he's wrong for feeling the way he does about the game, the company or where things are going. Like my best try is basically saying "well ya the company is awful and the fans are often cult like but me and you can still have some fun games" and now GW does this, even I'm starting to want to give up on AT. Le sigh.
Most of the better AT tournaments out there have been independently run, and have had their own FAQ and adjustments to some of the more... problematic... terminals and/or cards.
So I'm not sure if something not explicit to the rule books is going to stop anyone.
In my case in terms of gaming locally, like I've been trying very hard to get people here to play and when GW does stuff like this, it's really demoralizing. It feels like I'm selling a story of "they've changed man, they made a really great game this time and they seem to be supporting it pretty well" and now it just feels like I have to apologize for gw as if they're a friend whose fallen off the horse so to speak. "He's changed man" "Wasn't he arrested last week for fraud" "Well ya but ya see that was the person who he was defrauding's fault so". I dunno, tired of apologizing for GW just to keep people in the game. I've got one friend who has stopped playing AT and it's directly because of GW, I can't sadly just tell him he's wrong for feeling the way he does about the game, the company or where things are going. Like my best try is basically saying "well ya the company is awful and the fans are often cult like but me and you can still have some fun games" and now GW does this, even I'm starting to want to give up on AT. Le sigh.
Compared to today it certainly feels like they were a reformed company back in 2018, doesn't it? As a customer of late I feel like Mr Kinney turning up for Dick Jones' latest boardroom meeting whenever previews are shown, prices revealed and articles uploaded...
schoon wrote: Most of the better AT tournaments out there have been independently run, and have had their own FAQ and adjustments to some of the more... problematic... terminals and/or cards.
So I'm not sure if something not explicit to the rule books is going to stop anyone.
Banning something is easier than fixing something I would say. GW just had a chance to get a unit off the ban list, the asterius, they chose to do nothing.
I think with the warmaster the player base needs to let them know how unacceptable it is, and to have them faq it so they stop trying this cynical stuff with future releases. Like it's a game with all of 5 titan chasis, did they think players wouldn't notice?
Crablezworth wrote: Like it's a game with all of 5 titan chasis, did they think players wouldn't notice?
It could be far worse; Household players realistically only have two knights to choose from to make their lances. You can have a lance of Questoris...or - wait for it - a lance of Cerastus! But joy - we can also purchase slightly different FW versions for twice the price! Aren't we the lucky ones!
Gits...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just emailed customer services about the confusion as to whether the Warmaster and Iconoclast weapon cards are interchangable or not. As soon as I get the reply I'll let you know what the final word is.
I've also put in complaints regarding the Acastus terminal set and the Castigator & Acheron set, for added measure. They are doing themselves out of sales over small things that are easily remedied with a new FAQ pdf.
I'm a little underwhelmed tbh. The warmaster has a 5+ basic weapon skill, so that big scary chainsword is going to be hitting on 4+ within 2". Not great for targeted attacks.
Also there will be something like a revamp of Adeptus Titanicus. There will
be an expansion which introduce Planes and Ground Forces in AT.
This will be not actually a new Epic but it brings back 8mm Infantry and
Tanks of the Legiones Astartes.
Infantry and Armour will be FW-Resin, no plans for Plastic at this state.
It looks like they will use this as a test run to see how popular an actual
Epic return in the future could be.
Also there will be something like a revamp of Adeptus Titanicus. There will
be an expansion which introduce Planes and Ground Forces in AT.
This will be not actually a new Epic but it brings back 8mm Infantry and
Tanks of the Legiones Astartes.
Infantry and Armour will be FW-Resin, no plans for Plastic at this state.
It looks like they will use this as a test run to see how popular an actual
Epic return in the future could be.
Also there will be something like a revamp of Adeptus Titanicus. There will
be an expansion which introduce Planes and Ground Forces in AT.
This will be not actually a new Epic but it brings back 8mm Infantry and
Tanks of the Legiones Astartes.
Infantry and Armour will be FW-Resin, no plans for Plastic at this state.
It looks like they will use this as a test run to see how popular an actual
Epic return in the future could be.
It's not likely gonna happen. It's literally called adeptus titanicus.
I think the people that want to believe that rumour haven't played AT. Titanicus is activation based, that's the problem with adding infantry and tanks. There' is no way to balance out that activating tank x is the same temporally as activating a warlord titan. The game already does a poor job with knights, it couldn't handle infantry or planes in a meaningful way outside of like a tiny support role, without losing its focus on titans. This game already want to pretend that an all knight force is both viable and in anyway fun for anyone to play with or against. It isn't,
There already is infantry, literally each base is its own activation inside the combat phase. That's sorta the problem even though they're on the cooler battlefield assets.
I want to believe it but I'm trying not to get my hopes up.
That's wise.
Faeit managed to write a short rumour about Adeptus Titanicus then still put "Adeptus Mechanicus" in the article link. That's how much effort they put into these posts.
I'm a little underwhelmed tbh. The warmaster has a 5+ basic weapon skill, so that big scary chainsword is going to be hitting on 4+ within 2". Not great for targeted attacks.
Doesn't it use BS if it is more than 2" away? So if it can position itself 2-4" away, it has 4 targetted attacks which hit on a 2+, and ignore voids. Meanwhile the victim may shoot back, but can't ignore the iconoclast's shields, nor use its own melee weapons. Pretty nasty, but a bit odd. Get too close and its accuracy drops.
I'm a little underwhelmed tbh. The warmaster has a 5+ basic weapon skill, so that big scary chainsword is going to be hitting on 4+ within 2". Not great for targeted attacks.
Doesn't it use BS if it is more than 2" away? So if it can position itself 2-4" away, it has 4 targetted attacks which hit on a 2+, and ignore voids. Meanwhile the victim may shoot back, but can't ignore the iconoclast's shields, nor use its own melee weapons. Pretty nasty, but a bit odd. Get too close and its accuracy drops.
I think it'd be a lot cooler if it could swap weapons with the warmaster, having to be so cc focused just seems baffling for something so expensive in points. Like no one is surprised when the dual cc reaver or warlord beats the crap out of its target, if it gets there. If it gets there is the main point, it's a bet you can take with like 1 titan in maybe a 1750-2000pts game, it's really not something you can throw half one's points into, especially given its just one model.
It'll probably go to a new edition as the game feels like its wrapping up with its compendiums, has too many awkward components, mounting up errata and needs to move on from it's original designer.
But to be clear about that last item; I do hope that James Hewitt gets to make a giant robot game as he has done so for fantasy football. Likewise I want GW to deliver a better Titan-Knight experience.
Pleased with Krytos' rework - Tempestus are still dull as dishwater, sadly. Minor changes to Mortis that won't have a major impact. Still hoping for Mordaxis to be made...less terrible.
I'm a little underwhelmed tbh. The warmaster has a 5+ basic weapon skill, so that big scary chainsword is going to be hitting on 4+ within 2". Not great for targeted attacks.
Doesn't it use BS if it is more than 2" away? So if it can position itself 2-4" away, it has 4 targetted attacks which hit on a 2+, and ignore voids. Meanwhile the victim may shoot back, but can't ignore the iconoclast's shields, nor use its own melee weapons. Pretty nasty, but a bit odd. Get too close and its accuracy drops.
I think it'd be a lot cooler if it could swap weapons with the warmaster, having to be so cc focused just seems baffling for something so expensive in points. Like no one is surprised when the dual cc reaver or warlord beats the crap out of its target, if it gets there. If it gets there is the main point, it's a bet you can take with like 1 titan in maybe a 1750-2000pts game, it's really not something you can throw half one's points into, especially given its just one model.
SamusDrake wrote: It'll probably go to a new edition as the game feels like its wrapping up with its compendiums, has too many awkward components, mounting up errata and needs to move on from it's original designer.
But to be clear about that last item; I do hope that James Hewitt gets to make a giant robot game as he has done so for fantasy football. Likewise I want GW to deliver a better Titan-Knight experience.
I believe Mr. Hewitt's company is working on producing "Steel Colosseum" which isn't strictly giant robots as I understand it, but does involve robots.
Tempestus was split but the loyalists elements were largely wiped out on Mars early on, so they stuck them in the Traitor category for presumably bookkeeping purposes.
This channel also did a review of the Iconoclast where you can see the two missing cards:
Can't see the Iconoclast getting that +1 to hit on the carapace gatling array very often... when it fight another Warmaster, and that's it.
Does "Fusion" on a 2" melee weapon only kick in when the target is up to 1" away?
The reactor card isn't "Iconoclast only". I assume the only distinctions between Warmasters and Iconoclast is the main weapons (melee or guns, no mixing), carapace weapon for some reason (so they aren't mixed in the Warlords or Reavers), and everything else is essentially the same. The shoulder weapons are the same for both models even if the weapon cards are linked to one or the other.
Ya, fusion would have to be 1 inch away. Ya the reactors seem to be the only cards that don't say iconoclast, not sure on the legalities of if that means they're compatible with the warmaster.
The gatling array would be nice to be able to take on the warmaster, damn shame.
Crablezworth wrote: Ya, fusion would have to be 1 inch away. Ya the reactors seem to be the only cards that don't say iconoclast, not sure on the legalities of if that means they're compatible with the warmaster.
The gatling array would be nice to be able to take on the warmaster, damn shame.
While it's somewhat arbitrary that they aren't shareable like one might like, I'm not exactly sorry for not giving the super-duper plasma engine of death an excellent shield stripper gun as well. It is a similar situation with Reavers not getting plasma blastguns on their carapaces even though they had that option in Epic, for their reactors can handle the heat sustainably unlike Warhounds. Similarly, it doesn't come as a big surprise that the Warmaster's apoc missile launchers have reduced shots.
Arbitrary speaks to random, this is very deliberate on their part. Again, they could just not have released the sprue separately without having to codify it in the rules, they went one step further.
I agree the warmaster doesn't "need" the 12 shot S6 gun, but it is only 30 and corridor, but in my case being able to take that would also mean me taking a cool CC weapon instead of 2 plasma amrs, so if I could indeed do that I'd be rocking one less giant plasma gun of doom and some cool looking sword or drilly fist thing. Damn shame.
Crablezworth wrote: Arbitrary speaks to random, this is very deliberate on their part. Again, they could just not have released the sprue separately without having to codify it in the rules, they went one step further.
I agree the warmaster doesn't "need" the 12 shot S6 gun, but it is only 30 and corridor, but in my case being able to take that would also mean me taking a cool CC weapon instead of 2 plasma amrs, so if I could indeed do that I'd be rocking one less giant plasma gun of doom and some cool looking sword or drilly fist thing. Damn shame.
Agreed that I want to swap,arms, but 30 and corridor is not a restriction when you can take gyros and 30 is also the range of the plasma
Tempestus was split but the loyalists elements were largely wiped out on Mars early on, so they stuck them in the Traitor category for presumably bookkeeping purposes.
Crablezworth wrote: Arbitrary speaks to random, this is very deliberate on their part. Again, they could just not have released the sprue separately without having to codify it in the rules, they went one step further.
I agree the warmaster doesn't "need" the 12 shot S6 gun, but it is only 30 and corridor, but in my case being able to take that would also mean me taking a cool CC weapon instead of 2 plasma amrs, so if I could indeed do that I'd be rocking one less giant plasma gun of doom and some cool looking sword or drilly fist thing. Damn shame.
Agreed that I want to swap,arms, but 30 and corridor is not a restriction when you can take gyros and 30 is also the range of the plasma
The range is why I wouldn't mind losing a plasma arm for a cc weapon and gaining it instead of the missiles. A big sword basically defensive, but send the message not to get too close.
Goonhammer have posted an in-depth review of the new book including a summary of what is changed for each legio
Was just about to post that link
So yeah I was mistaken about some of the mutations, some do require certain base mutations.
Looking at some of the examples they show, right off the bat, I think it's cool to create like custom daemonic titans, my concern is it getting out of hand.
So these were the upgrades/mutations for one of the warlords they showed off:
My concern isn't a cool evil titan, it's a whole battlegroup of them and the amount of trust and non visual information that gets lost in a largely visual game. It's weird to think that titans of legend were controversial before this, guess that's no longer and issue.
Another example is a reaver that almost doubles in points, and that's the other reality, you can use upgrades AND mutations.
So without getting into specifics, my global concern is there doesn't seem to be a lot of limiting principles here. So if people's rightful concerns with custom legios, was players just making new ones every game or just very strong legios, that's a bit of my concern here. Without limits, nothing seemingly prevents someone from doing custom traitor legio with a bunch of mutations.
It's not black and white, but looking at upgrades, both loyalist, traitor and universal, there's already the issue of sorta abstraction and the non visual nature of a lot of the upgrades. It's one thing for me or an opponent to say "all my titans have bastion shields". But its another still for either of us to come up with a system to track their use. What we mutually came up with was keeping a little blue token in the corner of each titans terminal which we removed after making use of the bastion shields. But like other than a vortex missile or some cool banner, a lot of them aren't necessarily something that needs to be converted or outwardly display itself.
So i guess what I'm saying mutations didn't start this, but I feel there's more of an expectation with mutations that the titan be somewhat converted. If mutations just become seen or used as "more upgrades" and not the inspiration to model a cool daemonic titan, well, I don't know if that's good for the game. Furthermore, not that every mutation has some obvious addition or conversion one can do to a titan but keeping track of this without a visual side like weapons seems daunting for both players. The other issue is nothing stopping people, like with custom legios, to change this up quite a bit game to game. So yeah, concern again would be conveniently having every player at a matched play event playing traitor and also conveniently the trend being that mutations are quite common.
The goonhammer review is worth reading but it doesn't really get into the ramifications of the traito book on the core game. I also don't want to seem like I'm saying the psi titan is bad, they're good, very good. But often not allowed at matched play events and with good reason. Even if this sees them allowed, that's sorta my problem from a list building perspective. Each traitor list gets to be min/maxed well oiled machine, while loyalist get... to run a very expensive psi titan. Yes there will likely be more psi titans released eventually, but it just seems like a discrepancy. Not sure what events are gonna do but hopefully we see some really cool actually modelled corrupted titans.
lord_blackfang wrote: It looks like they went out of their way to make most mutations non-WYSIWYGable with esoteric forms like Shield, Aura, Cloud, etc.
Yeah and it's a mixed bag, the vibe is also that they're doing this specifically because there is no plan for any corrupted titan kit or upgrade set, hence the lack of visuals.
So the fear is every normal looking traitor titan rocking a handful of these. The issue is more on the fluff/spirit of the game side of things. My concern isn't really narrative players but matched play.
I can see that 'invisible' mutations might not be ideal for matched play...but even most AT events tend to be more relaxed and narrative in style. I think they know their player base.
gorgon wrote: I can see that 'invisible' mutations might not be ideal for matched play...but even most AT events tend to be more relaxed and narrative in style. I think they know their player base.
Matched play still needs to sorta draw lines somewhere, even the more permissive might not allow acastus or might ban custom legios, it's going to be very hard pretending that universal use without conversion by traitor players won't come to a head at some point. I'm not claiming to have the answers, there's plenty of rules to look at and nuance abounds but, it's a bit rich to hear someone say "custom legios are too broken or strong" as they field an army with 3-5 upgrades per titan 2-4 of which mutations with zero conversion to actually do the whole corrupted "looking" titan thing. And I'm not saying this is easy to figuer out, most titan upgrades don't really require or conjure much in terms of conversion even if people want to physically show upgrades. But we can all agree not modelling bastion shields is a far cry from a titan with 4 mutations and zero effort conversion wise. So ya, I don't think it will be simple for matched play as it would be for more narrative events/groups. And even in case of the latter, i don't think any of this is simple to navigate, its rife for subjectivity and as we all know one persons cool concept or theme is another persons deal breaker so who knows. There are some really cool mutations.
And to your point about the invisible thing, yeah, that gets silly as scale increases. Thankfully the -2 doesn't like stack with actual cover/securement or it'd be over. But it is really strong to always count as being in 50% cover for being 25% and a flat -1 is no joke.
Matched play still needs to sorta draw lines somewhere, even the more permissive might not allow acastus or might ban custom legios,
Ban the custom legios rules from Defence of Ryza?
Seriously, I would be done with this game if that happened.
I dunno, i understand its one more thing for them to have to deal with so banning might be simplest route but now with traitors getting a bazillion potential upgrades, it really does seem a bit rich to have someone with 3-5 upgrades on every titan tell you that your choice of a trait or two or a couple custom upgrades is somehow more potentially unbalancing, But in fairness, nothing is simple because there's the added problem of traitors can make custom legios too, so its just one more thing to have to deal with. Still hard to limit one and not the other.
that said adding lots of mutations and upgrades will swifty drop the model count so less for an opponent to memorise (and easier to beat too unless your careful)
MajorWesJanson wrote: I could see a requirement for corrupted titans to have all their corruptions and rules for such to be listed on a paper next to each titan terminal.
Sure but it's a lot of take in. I'm pretty confident I've got the majority of weapons for example committed to memory but I can also see them and the cards at anytime. A list is good for transparency but it's not helpful or at least, it only increases in value the more i commit all the mutations to memory but its easy to get the names of even weapons' confused so without a visual cue, my memory is only so good.
But even then, if there's no visual cues and each titan is a laundry list of upgrades and mutations, it seems taxing, especially if the tournament environment is all or mostly invisible stuff. Like we've come so far from thinking a titan of legend would throw things out of whack lol, and that's one titan out of a battle group and the differences are on the terminal.
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OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: that said adding lots of mutations and upgrades will swifty drop the model count so less for an opponent to memorise (and easier to beat too unless your careful)
Sure but at like 1750-2000 it really doesn't matter, ie lets assume someone has 5 titans, they likely have hundreds of points to spend on upgrading them. Even before this, when universal upgrades became a thing with the loyalist book, it had an effect on games here, in that where you used to see a unit or two of knights to fill out points, you saw perhaps a unit or two less and a hundred points or more spent on titan upgrades. As cool as whole battle groups of corrupted titans would be, whole battle groups of unconverted normal looking traitor titans, much less so. I don't know how to limit or fix this but I could see one idea being if the trend is to not model upgrades and mutations (i don't want to single out just mutations as theres a lot of crossover) perhaps limit how many titans can take mutations or cap the amount of mutation in combination. At worse consider making them aux so 1 per maniple maybe. The reason is, unlike upgrades a lot aren't really indexed to scale so they cost the same whether on a warmaster or warhound, so there's definitely more benefit to stacking them on the more resilient the titan gets. The solution might limiting them overall so you can either spread the love or make 1 or two very corrupted ttians but you can't have like 15-25 mutations over 5 titans. I don't wanna sound too down on them, lots cool potential for conversions, but I'm sure everyone reading starts to feel like the joker "I'm not a monster, I'm just ahead of the curve" -glues tentacles to titan-
I dunno, i understand its one more thing for them to have to deal with so banning might be simplest route but now with traitors getting a bazillion potential upgrades, it really does seem a bit rich to have someone with 3-5 upgrades on every titan tell you that your choice of a trait or two or a couple custom upgrades is somehow more potentially unbalancing, But in fairness, nothing is simple because there's the added problem of traitors can make custom legios too, so its just one more thing to have to deal with. Still hard to limit one and not the other.
Its hard for me comment on either Loyalist or Traitor books as I've only seen the reviews for them on Youtube. I also have no intention of getting either of those books.
If GW wants to limit those using the contents of Traitor Legios - use one or the other - fine. But outright banning custom legios - even if one is not using either Legio books - is completely unfair to those players who's battlegroup depend on them. By purchasing Defence of Ryza I have already repurchased the custom legio rules featured in white dwarf just to ensure I'm playing with the most updated and more balanced rules. For example, I can no longer switch out a maniple titan with a Warbringer, which has made it very hard to build my third battlegroup( which is currently on hold ) and had I bought one would have been really pissed. That alone is frustrating after I had to scrap my knightforce after the Porphyrion-over-nerf and was conned into purchasing yet more sodding Questoris to keep a legal Household...
Its getting to the point where open play will be the only way to enjoy Titanicus...
I dunno, i understand its one more thing for them to have to deal with so banning might be simplest route but now with traitors getting a bazillion potential upgrades, it really does seem a bit rich to have someone with 3-5 upgrades on every titan tell you that your choice of a trait or two or a couple custom upgrades is somehow more potentially unbalancing, But in fairness, nothing is simple because there's the added problem of traitors can make custom legios too, so its just one more thing to have to deal with. Still hard to limit one and not the other.
Its hard for me comment on either Loyalist or Traitor books as I've only seen the reviews for them on Youtube. I also have no intention of getting either of those books.
If GW wants to limit those using the contents of Traitor Legios - use one or the other - fine. But outright banning custom legios - even if one is not using either Legio books - is completely unfair to those players who's battlegroup depend on them. By purchasing Defence of Ryza I have already repurchased the custom legio rules featured in white dwarf just to ensure I'm playing with the most updated and more balanced rules. For example, I can no longer switch out a maniple titan with a Warbringer, which has made it very hard to build my third battlegroup( which is currently on hold ) and had I bought one would have been really pissed. That alone is frustrating after I had to scrap my knightforce after the Porphyrion-over-nerf and was conned into purchasing yet more sodding Questoris to keep a legal Household...
Its getting to the point where open play will be the only way to enjoy Titanicus...
The issue is basically, psi titans are very strong, so in a lot of matched play they're sorta banned or frowned upon. They're so good that they can even take out warmasters pretty easily, But what I'm seeing from some event organizers is basically corrupted titans are fine, require no further limitations, but also, custom legios are still too strong so banned, no acastus or vortex missiles and no psi titans. So loyalists get the losing end of things, To further compound the issue because nothing is ever simple, you can run an legio as loyalist or traitor, so my concern is, the result will see a large percentage of players at an event choosing to run as traitors. That may not be an issue if it's not a narrative thing, but sticking with matched play, that's sorta lame.
Obviously people are just getting their hands on the book so I am getting ahead of things by making predictions on how this will affect things, but the only real downside to corrupted titans is the -1 or -2 to their leadership. That's not really that bad because many maniples can mediate that somewhat, looking at you axiom, but also, the bigger you go for titans the higher the ld tends to be anyway,
But ya, I feel like it's gonna be hard to say no to custom legios if the trend is towards traitor legions with quote enquote "invisible upgrades". I think actually converting or magnetizing bits to convert titans to be corrupted will go a long way towards having the rule of cool win the day but it's really hard to win people over with zero effort hobby wise. There's def crossover with modelling upgrades too, and again for fairness, plenty of mutations ANd upgrades that may be super vague to model even if one wanted to attempt so gonna give everyone some slack for not wanting to have to start a whole new legio, but magnetizing heads and a few tentacles or something could go a long way.
I'll wait till I read through the Traitor Legios book before drawing any conclusions - and even then give it all some time for tactics and counter- tactics to shake out, which always takes some time.
Theoretical banning of this or that is quite premature at this point.
schoon wrote: I'll wait till I read through the Traitor Legios book before drawing any conclusions - and even then give it all some time for tactics and counter- tactics to shake out, which always takes some time.
Theoretical banning of this or that is quite premature at this point.
You don't need to ban anything to limit it. The problem is, it seems odd to allow unfettered corrupted tittans to literally anyone for declaring they're traitors today.
Here's an example of limiting it without stopping any insane combo at all.
Make them work like auxillary, but still allow them to fill a maniple slot. So basically 1 per maniple or just straight up aux. The mutations basically skew towards reaver and up anyway and it's not like the mutations get any cheaper on a warhound or any more expensive as you go up in scale, just scale allows for more of them on one titan. 1-2 is probably more palatable than 5, especially if zero effort is made on the conversion front.
Other method, simply cap or index the amount of mutation to point level.
If you wan specific examples of potentially easily abused mutations, the carapace one that would allow seemingly endless warp missile will likely be a problem. It allows carapace to change to another weapon of equal or lessere value during the command part of the strategy phase. That requires little testing to know at minimum it just jumped to the top of the faq/errata list. I'm trying not to single out too many, even that one might not be the end of the world if they fix it and it's not on every titan in the battlegroup.
I get people proxying to find out how things play, but from where I sit it's cynical to pretend one can't extrapolate on where a system with very little limitations and some skewed incentives can go. Without beating a dead horse, there is a prevailing feeling that custom legios, a system that lets you pick like 2 traits and like 2 upgrades or strats is game shattering, but allowing like unlimited corrupted titans/mutations, well, it's too early to tell. No question there are very strong choices for custom legios stuff.
schoon wrote: To the assertion that Psi Titans and custom Legios break the game, I'd offer the recent tournament results from Reactor Meltdown 2 in the UK.
Both of those options were legal.
A force with a Psi Titan did place 2nd, but custom Legios did not do terribly well.
Ah ok, thought it was no custom no psi titan, guess it's just no acastus or vortex then. Makes sense the psi titan doing well, especially placing so well, they're very strong.
Sadly that last shot of the warmasters broke my heart, for my mind immediately went to, if only...
It just dawned on me that...maybe there is a way to mix those weapons afterall? Maybe there is a third type of Warmaster on the way...one that is not bound by such limitations!
schoon wrote: To the assertion that Psi Titans and custom Legios break the game, I'd offer the recent tournament results from Reactor Meltdown 2 in the UK.
Both of those options were legal.
A force with a Psi Titan did place 2nd, but custom Legios did not do terribly well.
Ah ok, thought it was no custom no psi titan, guess it's just no acastus or vortex then. Makes sense the psi titan doing well, especially placing so well, they're very strong.
Custom legios might have been legal, but at that event I played against one of each loyalist, traitor and custom traitor, the one against the custom traitor was pretty oppressive
Sadly that last shot of the warmasters broke my heart, for my mind immediately went to, if only...
It just dawned on me that...maybe there is a way to mix those weapons afterall? Maybe there is a third type of Warmaster on the way...one that is not bound by such limitations!
Come now. Instead of another class of titan or knight( which I'm seriously tired of waiting for ) it will in fact be another sodding Warmaster variant that GW will try to convince us is a completely new Titan.
It'll probably be outfitted with a gigantic Nerf gun and feather duster.
schoon wrote: To the assertion that Psi Titans and custom Legios break the game, I'd offer the recent tournament results from Reactor Meltdown 2 in the UK.
Both of those options were legal.
A force with a Psi Titan did place 2nd, but custom Legios did not do terribly well.
Ah ok, thought it was no custom no psi titan, guess it's just no acastus or vortex then. Makes sense the psi titan doing well, especially placing so well, they're very strong.
Custom legios might have been legal, but at that event I played against one of each loyalist, traitor and custom traitor, the one against the custom traitor was pretty oppressive
I believe you, do you remember what their traits/strats/wargear was? I know I tend to skip custom stratagems and choose 2 traits and 2 custom wargear.
I agree the amount of choice, especially in context with maniple can really make some silly strong lists. But also, clearly all legios aren't created equal, but I can understand people's issue with making your own custom legio.
I still feel it's going to be more difficult to say no to custom legios and "yes yes my god yes!" to unlimited mutations. So I guess we'll see where things go. It's nice to have depth/complexity but I also feel like, for a game that had hard limitations on the wysiwyg side of things, ie having the weapons physically on the titans, it's easy for the other stuff to take the game away from a fairly visual experience. When I started out, what tended to dictate a change in my list from game to game was like getting a different weapon painted/built. After a few games, the consensus on knights was like "oh I get it, these are like ways to round off a list. I initially used tempestus rules, but eventually used custom once ryza book came out. My regular opponent went with tiger eyes, so that was one variable that didn't change from game to game. I've done my best to not change my custom legio rules from game to game but I get that's a massive concern for players.
There's also a strong sorta loyalty to one's legio rules because of the dedication to paint jobs. A lot of the concerns players have with custom legios seem rightly deserved, but I'd say concerns about "invisible" mutations are equally as warranted. In both cases unlike legio rules which are fixed, custom legios and mutations have very few limitations outside of players subjective willingness to engage with them. And they of course stack, to create a further complication. That I really really understand being potentially an issue because one could choose traits/wargear that potentially mitigates downside to mutations or even enhances already strong mutations, and of course there are good ole fashion things no one likely saw coming until someone tries it.
I really hope if/when we see a new titan, they don't pull the iconoclast card again and make it so "specialized" that it has artificial limitations. The fluff for the warlord's arioch power claw was it was initially conceived of for sieges and wrecking fortress walls, so this idea the iconoclast would be conceived for a singular purpose and not the individual weapons being conceived for their own purposes and assigned as always, based on the needs of the moment is just silly, Just watch the subjugator and jackal be the same body but like the warmaster, we're forced to pretend their different weapons loadout couldn't possibly be swapped.
Come now. Instead of another class of titan or knight( which I'm seriously tired of waiting for ) it will in fact be another sodding Warmaster variant that GW will try to convince us is a completely new Titan.
It'll probably be outfitted with a gigantic Nerf gun and feather duster.
Walletmaster titan. Only comes with one ancillary reactor card, card just says "you win".
But yeah, I've said it to death, the initial warmaster fluff was like "ok, whatever, fine, big robot" but the iconoclast fluff is just feels like someone else took over this game at GW, hasn't played it and thinks modularity gets in the ways of sales and like their other games surely the interns can bang together some boilerplate fluff cuz after all we're just selling models here and the obsessive will buy anything anyway. The krytos ones they showed in the warcom article look amazing, but honestly would look better with their arms swapped.
Walletmaster titan. Only comes with one ancillary reactor card, card just says "you win".
Exalted. And Well earned too.
As much as I'm frustrated with Titanicus, I'm putting aside a few pennies for the next round of releases. I've got this feeling that something "interesting" will drop next...
I mean, it's not like the writing wasn't on the wall when the new Warhound/Reaver/Warlord weapons weren't entirely swappable (yes, the Warhound was always limited, but a Gatling Blaster was the same on a Reaver as a Warlord).
Nurglitch wrote: I mean, it's not like the writing wasn't on the wall when the new Warhound/Reaver/Warlord weapons weren't entirely swappable (yes, the Warhound was always limited, but a Gatling Blaster was the same on a Reaver as a Warlord).
They didn't pretend the two warlord kits were different tho.
Nurglitch wrote: I mean, it's not like the writing wasn't on the wall when the new Warhound/Reaver/Warlord weapons weren't entirely swappable (yes, the Warhound was always limited, but a Gatling Blaster was the same on a Reaver as a Warlord).
It makes sense that larger chassis mount larger and more powerful weapons.
The iconoclast vs warmaster just feels like a crude balance mechanism to keep a carapace gattling equipped plasmamaster from flattening medium and small opponents in a single turn.
Nurglitch wrote: I mean, it's not like the writing wasn't on the wall when the new Warhound/Reaver/Warlord weapons weren't entirely swappable (yes, the Warhound was always limited, but a Gatling Blaster was the same on a Reaver as a Warlord).
They didn't pretend the two warlord kits were different tho.
I'm talking about swapping between the Warhound, Reaver, and Warlord Titan kits. Where the weapons are specific to the kits, restricting weapons to particular configurations is the next step.
Nurglitch wrote: I mean, it's not like the writing wasn't on the wall when the new Warhound/Reaver/Warlord weapons weren't entirely swappable (yes, the Warhound was always limited, but a Gatling Blaster was the same on a Reaver as a Warlord).
They didn't pretend the two warlord kits were different tho.
I'm talking about swapping between the Warhound, Reaver, and Warlord Titan kits. Where the weapons are specific to the kits, restricting weapons to particular configurations is the next step.
The warlord weapons were never swappable with the smaller titans. Warhound and reavers shared some arm weapons, but the warlord has always had it's own separate pool of parts.
The Armigers ... come in two flavours, close-range Warglaives and dual-autocannon Helverins, and each kit lets you build two of the former and one of the latter.
Similarly, the Knights Moirax come with two Knights dual-wielding lightning locks, and one with a mighty volkite veuglaire and gyges siege claw.
So wonky weapon choices, and no Conversion Beamer or Graviton Pulsar...
Resin production don't have any affect on production of plastic, unless you want resin rapier titan, which is weird. MASSIVE kit like Warmaster however, will eat up a lot of productions slot for a lot of smaller stuff.
Rihgu wrote: Okay, have we 100% done all of the knights? Can we get the Rapier now? Pretty pleaaaase!
There’s still he horrible dominus knights yet...
Oh. Oh no.
It's strange to me that the lightning lock is stronger than the gatling cannon (if I remember the stats of the gatling cannon right, it's S3?) even though they're both the same in 40k (S6?)
Seriously, we haven't had a plastic kit in over a year.
Well the entire model line is forgeworld designed anyway for AT. Small things like this work better in resin - it holds more detail than plastic, though yes it won't be cheap to buy into.
That said I'm hopeful that its one more step toward GW running out of Imperial only designs and taking a titantic step toward Chaos Warped designs and Xenos.
Well the entire model line is forgeworld designed anyway for AT. Small things like this work better in resin - it holds more detail than plastic, though yes it won't be cheap to buy into.
That said I'm hopeful that its one more step toward GW running out of Imperial only designs and taking a titantic step toward Chaos Warped designs and Xenos.
Nothing against the odd resin releases - certainly no problem with the Moirax being resin as consistant with the mechanicum releases thus far - but we're now at the point where every Knight release is in resin. Given the familiarity with 40K players, could they not have at least left the warglaives/Helverins as a plastic kit? Especially when the competition has been treated to two Warmaster plastic kits?
Take the Asterius for example; It costs as much as a pair of Warhounds. Its simply not worth buying.
I don't even run knights in my list and I want to protect these little smooshy balls of firepower
edit: GW - please... PLEASE.... just release EPIC already. It can be EPIC horus heresy I do not care. You got the planes, the knights, the titans - and I am 100000000% certain that the same program you use to scale down the models can be used to scale down the tanks and infantry.
fidel wrote: and I am 100000000% certain that the same program you use to scale down the models can be used to scale down the tanks and infantry.
Well duh. Doing design by almost scratch gets all down in scale
There's no magic button that downscales. When they did warlord titan for AT it was practically designed from scratch to ensure details work in different scale. No press button and it's scaled down to 6mm.
I don't even run knights in my list and I want to protect these little smooshy balls of firepower
edit: GW - please... PLEASE.... just release EPIC already. It can be EPIC horus heresy I do not care. You got the planes, the knights, the titans - and I am 100000000% certain that the same program you use to scale down the models can be used to scale down the tanks and infantry.
Good luck protecting them against anything with a real gun, maybe we finally have a Knight that is actually light enough to be properly hurt by the small arms that GW marketing tries to claim works against the buggers
They also don't really scale things down as much as they redesign them from reference. Lots of work at their current quality of product.
tneva82 wrote: Well the game is about titans. No surprise limited plastic releases are focused on main focus.
We say its a game about titans but that sounds like we're on James Hewits side of things, who was designing a game for GW - not the other way around. In hindsight, James probably had the right idea with Knights added a lot later, but instead GW pushed this new editon as a game of Titans and Knights from the very beginning. James mentioned that he would've had them release the Reaver and Hounds first, leading up to the Warlord, but GW went with the Warlord and Knights instead. Apparently Knights were going to be introduced later...
The proof is in the pudding; the Titans are largely well done, written & supported( to critical acclaim ), while Knights come across as an afterthought and are a friggin mess. I did build a small knight force but wrapped it up as best I could and moved on to a new legio instead.
tneva82 wrote: Well the game is about titans. No surprise limited plastic releases are focused on main focus.
We say its a game about titans but that sounds like we're on James Hewits side of things, who was designing a game for GW - not the other way around. In hindsight, James probably had the right idea with Knights added a lot later, but instead GW pushed this new editon as a game of Titans and Knights from the very beginning. James mentioned that he would've had them release the Reaver and Hounds first, leading up to the Warlord, but GW went with the Warlord and Knights instead. Apparently Knights were going to be introduced later...
The proof is in the pudding; the Titans are largely well done, written & supported( to critical acclaim ), while Knights come across as an afterthought and are a friggin mess. I did build a small knight force but wrapped it up as best I could and moved on to a new legio instead.
Yeah I feel like these may be better used as titan hunter infantry than in their current form but I'll wait to see the full terminal. 100% agree that titans feel well conceived but the knights feel like they are total afterthought.
Well I hope GW and SG obsession with BIG is over and we can have a more frequent and affordable release. 1 Knight, 2 small Titan upgrade, and 1 new titan a year seem perfect. But people just want BIG, I guess. But with these knights being resin, I reckon they're making more BIG, which is another pass for me.
Chopstick wrote: Well I hope GW and SG obsession with BIG is over and we can have a more frequent and affordable release. 1 Knight, 2 small Titan upgrade, and 1 new titan a year seem perfect. But people just want BIG, I guess. But with these knights being resin, I reckon they're making more BIG, which is another pass for me.
Agreed, the problem is GW seems really bad with weapon releases, we've had few, they've been mostly resin outside of the reaver/warlord sprues and the choom guns were bad with the exception of maybe the warlord one. Also the trend with the iconoclast is to now write terrible fluff on why a titan chasis should be specialized and have fewer options accordingly, which is weird. Hoping that doesn't continue with new titan releases. Watch the "carnivore" class titan just be a third reaver box that can't swap weapons with the others... le sigh
Yeah I feel like these may be better used as titan hunter infantry than in their current form but I'll wait to see the full terminal. 100% agree that titans feel well conceived but the knights feel like they are total afterthought.
Well, between this and the Iconoclast fiasco I think I've found the song that sums up Titanicus of late...
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Chopstick wrote: Well I hope GW and SG obsession with BIG is over and we can have a more frequent and affordable release. 1 Knight, 2 small Titan upgrade, and 1 new titan a year seem perfect. But people just want BIG, I guess. But with these knights being resin, I reckon they're making more BIG, which is another pass for me.
Exalted.
That said, while I was disappointed that the Warmaster wasn't the titan for me, I was glad for those who had been after something larger than the Warlord. It fills as many points and works out cheaper than two Warlord kits. For large point games its easier to paint one titan than two.
But yes, going forward we need something around the size of a hound or reaver.
Sweet. Next step is the Castellan and Valiant knights, I guess.
Nevertheless, with these I'll have enough to play 40k / Apocalypse "Knight Battle" with 6/8mm scale miniatures. Just divide all the ranges by 2 and it's perfect. Takes much less space too !
Sarouan wrote: Sweet. Next step is the Castellan and Valiant knights, I guess.
Nevertheless, with these I'll have enough to play 40k / Apocalypse "Knight Battle" with 6/8mm scale miniatures. Just divide all the ranges by 2 and it's perfect. Takes much less space too !
Sucks it's FW resin kit, though.
Had that idea with Knights vs Knights battles, and using cm instead of inches for "Travel 40K".
Had that idea with Knights vs Knights battles, and using cm instead of inches for "Travel 40K".
Pretty much the same !
Crablezworth wrote: Well the good thing about the armigers is they make great titan hunter infantry. These are on 32mm's.
Or great units to secure objectives. With their (relative) small size, they can also certainly hide much more easily behind terrain in comparison to Knights.
I'll be honest, I believe they're more appealing for collection or using other systems than AT. I mean, AT is all about battles between huge titans. Too many Knight-size units kinda "steal" the focus on the true stars of the show, IMHO.
Had that idea with Knights vs Knights battles, and using cm instead of inches for "Travel 40K".
Pretty much the same !
Crablezworth wrote: Well the good thing about the armigers is they make great titan hunter infantry. These are on 32mm's.
Or great units to secure objectives. With their (relative) small size, they can also certainly hide much more easily behind terrain in comparison to Knights.
I'll be honest, I believe they're more appealing for collection or using other systems than AT. I mean, AT is all about battles between huge titans. Too many Knight-size units kinda "steal" the focus on the true stars of the show, IMHO.
Agreed, the game is best when it focusses on its strength which is titan on titan combat. Also agreed their small size might actually make them worth it if the banners aren't too big.
It's always nice to have stuff that really makes the titans feel big, that's what I liked about the original 6 battlefield assets in the starter. But ya, focus should be on the titans. Even the titan hunter infantry can get a bit silly because of their activations in the combat phase.
Warmaster + option is 10 times the size of a Knight or smaller titan sprue, or an average SG quarterly release, pretty much ate all the plastic production time slot and fund for this game for the year.
I have to say that I find the little Armigers and Moirax to be key charming models.
The game already has a wealth of glass cannons, so I'm not yet sure what they add to the game, but they look fun to paint (or use their twisted wreckage to adorn a proper Titan base)
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Watch a 3 pack of them be more expensive than the 3 pack of regular Knights
Being Forgeworld they'll probably be £25 for three, so one might as well get a pack of Questoris.
As long as the banner can run at 3, I guess it's not the end of the world.
I'm just hoping the weapons aren't fixed an you can do like dual claw or dual melta lance. If it's stuck at melta/claw, I hope the claw is still decent.
Very skeptical that the dual autocannons will be any good. We always welcome being pleasantly surprised though, but I doubt sitting and shooting at range is a good idea with these, especially in sight of titans.
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Chopstick wrote: Well at least you got 2 melta Armiger per 3 instead of 1 melta questoris per 3.
I guess the concern is if it's 3 minimum and the autocannons aren't great you'd have to get two sets. Really hoping it's not like 6 minimum to a banner.
As long as the banner can run at 3, I guess it's not the end of the world.
I'm just hoping the weapons aren't fixed an you can do like dual claw or dual melta lance. If it's stuck at melta/claw, I hope the claw is still decent.
Very skeptical that the dual autocannons will be any good. We always welcome being pleasantly surprised though, but I doubt sitting and shooting at range is a good idea with these, especially in sight of titans.
Y'know, you will definitely hate me for this but...I really hope they screw the rules up worse than the Acastus and sends titan players into a panic...
Just a thought, though I haven't run the numbers for this - I wonder if the Armigers/Moirax might be a cheap anti-Knight force that can stay in cover till needed...
Cheapest anti knight is Knight Acheron. A s8 T-Spear need to move within 5" (or 3 for the auto hit non-fusion meltagun) to have a slim chance of a critical hit (8+ on D10), that is assuming that the attack hit. Acheron flamer auto hit and deal a lot of direct hits on 2+
The only thing that would protect a banner is the 4+ save against S7 if there're more Knights. but that would mean they eat more hit from the flamer, once a Knight went down, so does the 4+.
With 11" movement, they might provide more options for lance compositions consisting of Qs or Cs, which are 10" and 12" respectively. With only 1" difference from either knight class, they would pair up quite nicely if they're cheap enough in points.
I'd like to think it's possible for them to ambush like a warhound on the flanks, or at the very least keep its attention. I think the fact they'll be easy to hide with most civitas stuff is great. Also with more natural terrain, they might fit where other knights can't.
@SamusDrake Someone needs to model a holy hand granade catapult as a count as vortex missile.
Mr_Rose wrote: The autocannon should be S4 by the “rules” of converting the weapons from 40K, so a shield stripping unit. Basically a really mobile AML on legs.
True, the autocannons on the acastus is S4, hopefully they'll have a longer than 6inch range
Possibly even a bonus at long range or something. Wondering too if the loadouts are locked or if each arm is independent like the styrix/magaeras/questoris's.
The Questoris is a versatile unit in 40K, providing a wealth of roles, but in Titanicus most of it's weapons are largely useless to the point where you might as well arm it with dual melee weapons and just charge the enemy, and save the points.
The battle cannon is supposed to be a long range weapon and certainly not as short as the avenger and thermal cannons. Likewise the missile pods are supposed to have greater range, not less. For our Helverin's dual autocannons...they too should have some range to them.
There are so many other problems with the knights that need fixing, but I'll leave it there.
Well, for one, the terrain rules don't help them much in the realm of cover. They really need like area terrain rules that bump their ion saves and or also give -1 or -2 to hit. Like old 40k forests basically.
Well, the Armigers will be handy in some of the Open Engine War games, especially the one where your ranges are reduced down to your scale. Combine that with some dense terrain and they become very scary
Rapid fire battle cannon and Thermal cannon both have the correct range. It's their 40k rule range divided by 3.
Acactus weapon's range are too long.
The weapon with the longest range of the Imperial Knight is the Castellan Volcano lance, which is 26-27" range in AT scale.
Trying to "innovate" and change the range of the weapon will break the game. it's important to preserve the integrity between multiple publication of rule.
Chopstick wrote: Rapid fire battle cannon and Thermal cannon both have the correct range. It's their 40k rule range divided by 3.
Acactus weapon's range are too long.
The weapon with the longest range of the Imperial Knight is the Castellan Volcano lance, which is 26-27" range in AT scale.
Trying to "innovate" and change the range of the weapon will break the game. it's important to preserve the integrity between multiple publication of rule.
I'm using Wahapedia for reference but the findings so far indicate that quite a few weapons in the game aren't dividing their 40K ranges by 3. Examples are the Avenger cannon, the Bolt cannon, the Vulcan mega-bolter. Quite a few titan weapons are also out such as the Reaver's volcano cannon, melta cannon and laser blaster.
Am I reading this right? The titans in 40K actually move faster than the knights? I'm not joking - Warlords can actually chase the Cerastus around the board, Benny Hill style!
Vulcan mega bolter has the correct range based on the 7th edition rule. 8th edition make a buff to the range while 9th massively nerf it, but both are not written at the time of publication.
And 7th (or Horus heresy) is usually better at example for comparison, and rule reference because same setting (Horus Heresy),the use of template and AV, consistency and less drastic change for competitive sake like the massive nerf to Vulcan MB range from 8th to 9th, save for a one or two thing that 8th did improve, like Castigator shoot more bullet than avenger.
Both Knight gatling cannon was getting the range wrong, thus leading to the "balancing" problem of them being too good for shield stripping, has they been at the correct range (12" ), reduce number of shot ( avenger <= castigator< Mega Bolter )and maybe with an accuracy penalty and price increase on top, this would not be a problem at all to have them at S4, which is the same caliber as mega bolter in all other publication. I has mentoned this since day 1 of this game.
Chopstick wrote: Vulcan mega bolter has the correct range based on the 7th edition rule. 8th edition make a buff to the range while 9th massively nerf it, but both are not written at the time of publication.
And 7th (or Horus heresy) is usually better at example for comparison, and rule reference because same setting (Horus Heresy),the use of template and AV, consistency and less drastic change for competitive sake like the massive nerf to Vulcan MB range from 8th to 9th, save for a one or two thing that 8th did improve, like Castigator shoot more bullet than avenger.
Both Knight gatling cannon was getting the range wrong, thus leading to the "balancing" problem of them being too good for shield stripping, has they been at the correct range (12" ), reduce number of shot ( avenger <= castigator< Mega Bolter )and maybe with an accuracy penalty and price increase on top, this would not be a problem at all to have them at S4, which is the same caliber as mega bolter in all other publication. I has mentoned this since day 1 of this game.
Ah, so its using not only an earlier edition of 40K, but the Horus Heresy rules set for reference. Now its starting to make a lot of sense. I returned to the hobby in 2017 and eventually GW stuff in 2018. Discovering that Titans and Knights had been added to 40K was like "What? Since when? Who's bright idea was this?". If I'm not mistaken Knights themselves were introduced to 40K in 2017?
Yup, I agree with the "gatlings" having S4 and definitely less shots on the Questoris. Reducing it to a glorified melee weapon outside of the coordinated strike - which isn't available to freeblades - is really defeating the purpose of it being a ranged weapon. Thinking about it, a banner of six knights, all armed with dual Avengers, would come to...96 attack dice if they all got in close and received the side'n'rear arc bonuses. Thats even more impractical than the Acastus' potential 8 blast attacks. Not so much a problem on the Castigator as it can only have four bolt cannons for a maxmium banner, thus only hitting with 28 dice.
Well in normal 40k they were way ahead of dual gatling spam by limiting Knights into their archetype with specific name,weapon combination and lore (weapon loadout/archetype actually affected the Knight's machine spirit and difficulty to pilot). There're plenty of space on the terminal so it's not really a problem if balancing was a concern.
Only Renegade Knight was allowed to use that loadout much later after the initial release of the Knight codex, but they're losing out the normal Knight benefit, and for a time Dual Gatling Renegade knight actually wreck havoc on the tabletop, that's the benefit of being a traitor or rebel.
SamusDrake wrote: Speaking of renegade knights, they ought to be up next in a forthcoming expansion.
And might as well ask before I forget; apparently Titandeath and Shadow & Iron introduced campaigns for the game. Were they much cop?
I hope they give loyalist knights something, because again it'd be just one more thing for traitors.
I'd like to see them expand what you can do with knights that are in support of titans as opposed to their faction. It's unfortunate that all those knightly traits only matter if you're running them as a household. Wish you could pay like a stratagem point or something to take a knight trait on a unit.
Dominus will surely be next (I was very surprised we got Armigers before Dominus - I didn't expect to see Armigers at all). Then we presumably get some brand new stuff unless there's some other thing I'm not remembering.
SamusDrake wrote: Speaking of renegade knights, they ought to be up next in a forthcoming expansion.
And might as well ask before I forget; apparently Titandeath and Shadow & Iron introduced campaigns for the game. Were they much cop?
It's the usual campaign stuff, fight, get victory point, get money, salvaged destroyed titan for money, use money to repair, or buy more unit, crew start at lv 1 to 3 randomly determined by diceroll and gain level, which give their titan extra re-roll.
Shadow and Iron have campaign rule for Knight force, Knight gain an extra 500 points (money) to build their startnig force. Level system is different (stronger) than the one Titan force use.
Shadow and Iron also added system world map,and rule for different kind of world, and the usual stuff : capturing, invading etc.... You choose a world as your homeworld so you'll always get some kind of bonus, for example Knight world get cheaper knights and free models.
And there're the optional rule for titan crew level up, now with unique skill instead of more re-roll. No such thing for Knight though.
If you can get the open engine war cards, you could use to make like a tiered set of missions and just do a tree campaign where win/loss leads to to whichever next mission/scenario. The campaigns seems pretty dependent on getting in a lot of games I feel. If someone has an active player base or club more power to them, but a tiered little campaign that's like 3-4 games might be more viable. Maybe they're re-release the open engine war cards ones day. They're a decent asset for narrative stuff just as much as matched play.
Sounds like Shadow & Iron is the better of the two. Might get that one if the next expansion turns out to be crap...
The Open War card set was one I thought about getting but they sold out immediately. If there is any site that details the cards I suppose I could make an android app, using a mobile phone as a "digital deck". I wrote one for that Spacecrusade'n'Heroquest project a few years back...
Hopefully they wont screw us over with resin tax for the Dominus. With any luck the next expansion will be knight focused to accompany them with a dash of scout titans. Rapiers, already! And Freeblades definitely need looking at, if only to make the Avenger and Bolt cannons actually useful! If they did that I'd put an order in straight away for the Castigator & Acheron set.
If all else fairs...sigh...I'll just get a Warbringer and wrap up with the game. I've got a Warhound and Reaver that need one more titan...or something. I dunno. I did think about a Lance of just two Cerastus banners, but the rules are very specific that it must be three banners to a lance...even though the third banners are merely spare ones at a wedding...
Seriously, who gets that? Oh, its fine if its just 6 or 9 knights following each other around the battle field like lost sheep, but when its a friggin mob of 12 or 18 of the damn things it looks absolutely ridiculous! Couldn't they have at least said "2-3 banners, where the first two must be of the same class."? Wouldn't mind but keeping the banners within 6" of each other is a serious pain in the backside!
Ah dear. Hopefully there will be a preview soon to make us all giggly again...
I have often felt like splashing out on the sunfury Warlord( its looks bloody awesome and I've got two terminals and cards doing nothing but sitting in the box ) but its far too large and destructive for our games(750-1K points); the Reaver is pretty much the limit before we have to increase the size of our scenery.
The Warbringer itself is going beyond our limitations, but we might just get away with it.
Tsk. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but...shucks...I'm building a traitor legio.
Well honestly reavers and warhounds is probably the funnest anyway if both sides are only rocking those two types. Me and my buddy did basically the content of the starter box each against each other and it was like 12-1300pts ish, really fun.
Hopefully they wont screw us over with resin tax for the Dominus. With any luck the next expansion will be knight focused to accompany them with a dash of scout titans. Rapiers, already! And Freeblades definitely need looking at, if only to make the Avenger and Bolt cannons actually useful! If they did that I'd put an order in straight away for the Castigator & Acheron set.
With how small the armiger is that'd easily be the cheapest investment for GW into plastic, look like they can easily fit into a half size sprue. Out of money again? just ditched the thin cardboard,and printed it on black and white paper, out of ink? just slap the link, here go print it yourself we don't have money!.
Not sure how a dominus would fit on a sprue, probably like acactus. Dominus would surely be a huge game changer, assuming they didn't get the acactus treatment.
Spoiler:
Still prefer smaller thing made for this game as oppose to keep making bigger kit, that'd defeat the point of this game in the first place, maybe we get some of the stuff made into plastic from resin like Necromunda, we only need to wait 2-3 years for that to come....
This is pretty interesting. We've now got the smallest possible Knight option and the largest possible Titan option (minus the Imperator).
This leaves the Dominus as the only Knight we're really missing.
Then there's the Nightgaunt, which is Warlord-scale but more close-combat focused.
The Jackal is a heavily shielded Warhound.
And then the Rapier, which is a mysterious scout titan.
I figure it's just a matter of time before we see more of these options. Some, like the Jackal/Mastiff could simply be an upgrade sprue for the Warhound, and the Nightgaunt could be an upgrade sprue for the Warlord.
I also figure we'll continue to see FW put out more weapon options for the various titans. The Warmaster titans are just begging for more weapon options.
With how small the armiger is that'd easily be the cheapest investment for GW into plastic, look like they can easily fit into a half size sprue. Out of money again? just ditched the thin cardboard,and printed it on black and white paper, out of ink? just slap the link, here go print it yourself we don't have money!.
Not sure how a dominus would fit on a sprue, probably like acactus. Dominus would surely be a huge game changer, assuming they didn't get the acactus treatment.
Spoiler:
Still prefer smaller thing made for this game as oppose to keep making bigger kit, that'd defeat the point of this game in the first place, maybe we get some of the stuff made into plastic from resin like Necromunda, we only need to wait 2-3 years for that to come....
The Dominus is roughly inbetween the Q and C, I think. Probably both Castellan and Valiant on the same sprue and then packaged double, like the Cas'n'Archy set.
And yes, small is a good thing. I'm glad about the Warmaster as it helps the larger point games, where a player might not want the hassle of painting multiple titans. But when running a game that involves a knight army, its best to switch to smaller titans for a more balanced game. As much as I whine about Titanicus, we've got on alright with everything up to the reaver in size. The only stumbling block was the Acastus, on release and in their nerfs, but I've managed to rework my House force around its limitations.
The Imperator has to happen eventually, but for now it would be awesome to have the Dominus and Rapier - or a titan inbetween the hound and reaver.
drbored wrote: And then the Rapier, which is a mysterious scout titan.
I figure it's just a matter of time before we see more of these options. Some, like the Jackal/Mastiff could simply be an upgrade sprue for the Warhound, and the Nightgaunt could be an upgrade sprue for the Warlord.
I also figure we'll continue to see FW put out more weapon options for the various titans. The Warmaster titans are just begging for more weapon options.
I was expecting a Scout Titan about the same time as Traitor Legios, but COVID delay may have pushed that well into '22.
It's the biggest kit not the biggest model, the size of the model is irrelevant, they could make a giant stick figue with stick stacking on top of each other and make the biggest model ever with just 1 or 2 normal (bloodbowl/necromunda) sprues.
Being on 4 + 1 of the largest sprue took astronomical amount of time and resource to make, that's more than anything plastic GW willingly to produce and release in such short amount of time for 1 unit, and this is a side game, not even a 40k/AoS "safe investment" proudct
For a memory refresher nowaday you get the Canis Rex knight on 4 big sprues + 1 bloodbowl/necromunda sprue, but you didn't get that back in 2014, you get the "palladin" knight on 3 sprue, in 2015 they add another sprue for the other variant, and finally in 2018 for Canis Rex.
So a more obvious speculation is that the massive kit drained all the budget allowance and time for the game, leading to no other kit being release, or even preview, because if they really did anything else we would have seen it over the year, the pandemic is not the reason.
Considering that its plastic I wonder if all the Specialist games are currently having a core issue in that its not investment or design work; but simply that GW is having trouble finding slots for their production alongside everything else. It could be they are sitting on a huge bunch of things for them which are just languishing because GW has bigger fish to sell and stock and are waiting for things to ease up a bit.
There's a dragging-heels feeling and its hard to pinpoint, form the outside, what might be the cause of it. Plus in the end it could be several things - lack of machines; blowing the budget on a big model; the fact that the yare investing in a huge release of Chaos in one go and are having to tick over until that is all ready.
Certainly with the head-start that Imperial models have any Chaos or Xenos themed force would have to have a fairly chunky launch for the game to establish itself. One of every "size" class (Warlord - Reaver - Scout - Warrior) might not be enough when the Imperium has several and more in those same slots.
Good point, but if plastic production was that strained then they could have easily skipped the amazing titan bundle. The starter set was already providing great value for players, and an ideal purchase alongside the Warmaster; a 2K battle force.
Welp, the tiny cute knights are coming sooner than I expected.
A few weeks ago, the Warmaster Iconoclast Heavy Battle Titan stomped its way onto battlefields worldwide, a frightening melee version of the biggest miniature you can buy for Adeptus Titanicus. Now for the other end of the size scale.
These adorable Armiger Knights and Mechanicum Knights Moirax don’t even come up to the shins of a Warlord Titan, but they’re sufficiently speedy and pack in enough firepower to cause serious trouble for other Knights.
JWBS wrote: Princept bundle was the best bundle they ever made, even better than the obviously great mk2 AT starter box.
Indeed it was. The price was quite shocking, and I considered purchasing a box and donating the Warlord to my local gaming group. Sigh, I regret not doing that now...
I was only pointing out that if production on the Warmaster( especially with a second kit ) had stretched them that much, then it seems like something they could have easily have skipped to concentrate on more pressing releases.
Just so we're on the level here; I'm glad they didn't as it made a lot of players happy!
Overread wrote: Considering that its plastic I wonder if all the Specialist games are currently having a core issue in that its not investment or design work; but simply that GW is having trouble finding slots for their production alongside everything else. It could be they are sitting on a huge bunch of things for them which are just languishing because GW has bigger fish to sell and stock and are waiting for things to ease up a bit.
There's a dragging-heels feeling and its hard to pinpoint, form the outside, what might be the cause of it. Plus in the end it could be several things - lack of machines; blowing the budget on a big model; the fact that the yare investing in a huge release of Chaos in one go and are having to tick over until that is all ready.
Certainly with the head-start that Imperial models have any Chaos or Xenos themed force would have to have a fairly chunky launch for the game to establish itself. One of every "size" class (Warlord - Reaver - Scout - Warrior) might not be enough when the Imperium has several and more in those same slots.
GW are releasing things like madmen these days. Next week we're getting the AT Knights, the LOTR board game, the Outcasts gang for Necromunda, Dungeon Bowl, and the AoS Dragons.
In days gone by I think the Dragons would have been in a release slot all by themselves, maybe even a 2 or 3 week release.
Granted this week is one of the heavier releases, but still the rate GW are pumping stuff out these days is impressive.
GW are releasing things like madmen these days. Next week we're getting the AT Knights, the LOTR board game, the Outcasts gang for Necromunda, Dungeon Bowl, and the AoS Dragons.
In days gone by I think the Dragons would have been in a release slot all by themselves, maybe even a 2 or 3 week release.
Granted this week is one of the heavier releases, but still the rate GW are pumping stuff out these days is impressive.
GW are releasing things like madmen these days. Next week we're getting the AT Knights, the LOTR board game, the Outcasts gang for Necromunda, Dungeon Bowl, and the AoS Dragons.
In days gone by I think the Dragons would have been in a release slot all by themselves, maybe even a 2 or 3 week release.
Granted this week is one of the heavier releases, but still the rate GW are pumping stuff out these days is impressive.
According to GW the dragons were meant to be released 2-3 months ago but got held up by global shipping issues. I believe we were also originally meant to get the Necromunda & Dungeon Bowl stuff earlier this month but they were affected by similar disruptions, so we saw a 2-week preorder for BT instead. For the last 5 years battleforces have been released on this weekend, so clearly there are still issues.
With the Armiger knights following so closely behind the Asterius, it feels like this is GW clearing out their backlog of releases postponed from earlier in the year.
GW are releasing things like madmen these days. Next week we're getting the AT Knights, the LOTR board game, the Outcasts gang for Necromunda, Dungeon Bowl, and the AoS Dragons.
In days gone by I think the Dragons would have been in a release slot all by themselves, maybe even a 2 or 3 week release.
Granted this week is one of the heavier releases, but still the rate GW are pumping stuff out these days is impressive.
According to GW the dragons were meant to be released 2-3 months ago but got held up by global shipping issues. I believe we were also originally meant to get the Necromunda & Dungeon Bowl stuff earlier this month but they were affected by similar disruptions, so we saw a 2-week preorder for BT instead. For the last 5 years battleforces have been released on this weekend, so clearly there are still issues.
With the Armiger knights following so closely behind the Asterius, it feels like this is GW clearing out their backlog of releases postponed from earlier in the year.
Although they were supposed to be released a couple of months ago, it doesn't really feel to me like GW in general have had a slow release schedule. There's still been something coming out most weekends.
It's more been that when something comes out they only have stock for a few days.
