gungo wrote: A mission packet I’ve seen no one use.
Maybe with the focus on Crusade missions this edition it might have a use.
I also expect a reduced yearly subscription like they do for white dwarf. (25% off)
All you lose is the 9th codex Hyperlinks to the datasheets which you can’t expect to get for free regardless
You still have the list builder, the updated points and any new units in the list builder plus all the 9th core rules.
I also expect a much cheaper yearly subscription option.
Wait.
If we sub but don't buy the 'dex, we can still build updated armies for this specific codex ?
I think you can only army build if you sub. Unlocking the codex basically i would presume unlocks the rules content from that codex in the app. SO if you wanna look up how Reanimation Protocols works, or view the datasheet for your skorpekh Destroyers you can do. If you want to build an army, check its battle forged and legal - get a sub seems to be what the article is saying.
Still, I'm all for the sub if the app provides me with better usability and ease of use than Battle Scribe along with a complete and up to date (including FAQ/Errata changes) versions of the rules. The former i guess we will have to wait and see once the app is out but the latter is confirmed in the article as being part of their plans for the app so, I'm in.
All you lose is the 9th codex Hyperlinks to the datasheets which you can’t expect to get for free regardless
You still have the list builder, the updated points and any new units in the list builder plus all the 9th core rules.
I also expect a much cheaper yearly subscription option.
Wait.
If we sub but don't buy the 'dex, we can still build updated armies for this specific codex ?
there is no army builder yet, so you can not
as far as we know for now, it will be possible to build the lists but no access to the Datasheets and rules (we don't know if matched play points are there or only powerlevel without the Codex)
Grrr is the correct response. I was hoping for points this week. I want to write some lists. Another disappointment. And that price converts to $5 a month. Why is the 40k app more expensive than the AoS app besides "just because we can"?
When I was tooling around with building a list building app that validates the lists the project was going to be really complex. 40K list building is no joke and I imagine the cost to get it built was quite high. The AoS builder is super rudimentary.
So what do you expect this list builder to do for $5 a month that battlescribe doesn't already do? Honest question.
Validated lists. Battlescribe can create incorrect lists. I can foresee tournaments like LVO saying, "we only accept lists through the GW app". It lifts the burden from them to do due diligence on lists.
It will also create more work when the app allows you to make Battle Forged Certified Armies that don't follow the rules in the Codex - which will create a lot of complaints from players whichever way the TO rules on the conflict.
1) Right now I buy a printed codex for $40 USD ($30 for SM supplements)
2) Right now if I want a digital version, its $34.99 for ePub or $37.99 enhanced
So to have both print and digital it’s $75 – $78 for a typical codex, of which there are 23? (Excluding the 6 SM supplements).
If I want an online/automated list builder, its BattleScribe for $1.49 / yr. per*
*I know it can be used for free, but they do ask for support, which I myself currently do pay for the supporter pass for both PC and iOS.
With the Warhammer 40K app
1) Digital Version of codex comes with printed version. Price not known, but I think it is safe to assume that the price of the 9th edition codices will be higher than $40, but lower than the combined $75-$78 above. – Conclusion is this will be better value than currently IF you were buying both print and digital versions. However, it is an inferior value if you were buying only one or the other.
For subscriber version since USD price not mentioned, let’s just guess $6 / month since GW always inflates the current exchange rate.
2) This is harder to compare apples to apples as it gives more than just a list builder. It provides digital versions of all 8th ed. codices, a ~$950 USD value if purchased today which will likely take more than 30 months before all are updated again assuming one codex a month vs. $180 total for the app during that same time frame – Conclusion is this is outstanding value assuming you don’t already have say more than 27 8th edition codices or supplements already. Value declines significantly if you had no interest in having say more than 5 8th edition codices or already own all the 8th edition codices you want in whatever is your preferred format.
3) If only interested in the list building feature, no contest in a straight price to price comparison with BattleScribe. But we know that BattleScribe is not perfect and caveat emptor, and is dependent on the un-paid and very committed community members who try their best to keep the data files updated. There is also typically a lag between codex release and BattleScribe being updated. One good thing about Battescribe has always been the relative ease with which lists could be shared or published across multiple media. The value that I assume the GW app will offer is, a) It’s official (don't discount this aspect), b) It will be updated the same day a codex is released, c) It will have less errors (FAQ/Errata history of GW notwithstanding), d) will hopefully be more user and mobile firendly and aligned visually with the force org system and e) have support for sharing/publishing your list. – Conclusion from a price only standpoint, this is an inferior value to what is currently available and not a good enough reason alone to subscribe to the app, however final assessment of value is highly dependent on the actual finished GW product
Obviously you don’t subscribe based on what if’s and vague promises of future improvements, but my guess of features on the short list to be added to app;
1) Match scorer
2) Dice app
3) Open War cards / Mission generator
4) Crusade journal
5) Campaign management
6) Support for other 40K games, e.g. Kill Team, Adeptus Titanicus, Aeronautica Imperialis, and may be even Necromunda?
I am looking forward to the app, and just based on the value of the digital versions of 8th edition codices will likely subscribe from day 1 and probably through whatever point that I am no longer referring to 8th edition codices are an ongoing basis.
I'm having a hard time seeing any reason why I'd pay for this app. I will probably use the free version though so that I don't have to carry around a 300 page hard back book for 25 pages of rules.
GW doesn't actually need to win or even be in the right to succeed. The threat of a C&D and a lawsuit is often enough from larger companies to get what they want.
Even if they are 100% right, companies still have to fight it in court. This is (Sadly) a pretty common tactic.
It doesn't matter, Battlescribe cannot even stop using 40k rules because Battlescribe is only a tool. At most GW could go after the repositories, but that would only push the data further underground.
If GW cannot even stop the community from pirating their codexes, they have no hope in stopping Battlescribe.
I think you are viewing this as a zero sum game, which it's not. GW doesn't have to stamp out everything, it just has to make it so that the alternatives to the app are either inconvenient enough or worse enough so that it drives more people to the app.
The only reason i will change from BS to this new app, and pay for it, is if it allows you to build army lists for armies you do not have a codex for.
If you can only build an Ultramarines list if you have purchased the Space Marine Codex and the Ultramarine Supplement, for example, then i just won't use it.
I'd have much preferred this app to allow "in-app" codex purchases or have a 2nd tier of subscription which includes all the codex rules than have to buy the codex and then pay for the app afterwards.
GW doesn't actually need to win or even be in the right to succeed. The threat of a C&D and a lawsuit is often enough from larger companies to get what they want.
Even if they are 100% right, companies still have to fight it in court. This is (Sadly) a pretty common tactic.
It doesn't matter, Battlescribe cannot even stop using 40k rules because Battlescribe is only a tool. At most GW could go after the repositories, but that would only push the data further underground.
If GW cannot even stop the community from pirating their codexes, they have no hope in stopping Battlescribe.
I think you are viewing this as a zero sum game, which it's not. GW doesn't have to stamp out everything, it just has to make it so that the alternatives to the app are either inconvenient enough or worse enough so that it drives more people to the app.
And they would fail. The makers of the data files used for the 40k army builder in Battlescribe are anonymous, meaning GW would have to invest significant resources to track them down (and GW doesn't have infinite resources). And even then anyone else can make the same files, it isn't hard.
And they have no legal recourse to go after Battlescribe itself as it would be the same as trying to sue Microsoft because you can make an army builder on Excel. BTW there are army builders on Excel, also not particularly hard to make.
But sure if GW wants to burn money chasing ghosts they are free to do so.
GW doesn't actually need to win or even be in the right to succeed. The threat of a C&D and a lawsuit is often enough from larger companies to get what they want.
Even if they are 100% right, companies still have to fight it in court. This is (Sadly) a pretty common tactic.
It doesn't matter, Battlescribe cannot even stop using 40k rules because Battlescribe is only a tool. At most GW could go after the repositories, but that would only push the data further underground.
If GW cannot even stop the community from pirating their codexes, they have no hope in stopping Battlescribe.
I think you are viewing this as a zero sum game, which it's not. GW doesn't have to stamp out everything, it just has to make it so that the alternatives to the app are either inconvenient enough or worse enough so that it drives more people to the app.
And they would fail. The makers of the data files used for the 40k army builder in Battlescribe are anonymous, meaning GW would have to invest significant resources to track them down (and GW doesn't have infinite resources). And even then anyone else can make the same files, it isn't hard.
And they have no legal recourse to go after Battlescribe itself as it would be the same as trying to sue Microsoft because you can make an army builder on Excel. BTW there are army builders on Excel, also not particularly hard to make.
But sure if GW wants to burn money chasing ghosts they are free to do so.
Even if GW has no legal recourse to go after Battlescribe, they can still do so. It still requires Battlescribe to get representation for their case, and there are a lot of costs for that. Maybe they can recoup those later, maybe not. Going after Microsoft, and going after some tiny company are completely different kinds of animals.
There is a very good chance that if GW sent battlescribe a C&D, they would just fold, even if Battlescribe are legally in the right. The cost and resources to fight something like this are a major ask for a few indie developers.
As the app will provide all the 8th edition codecies with the paid subscription, I imagine we may see an aggressive codex release schedule to prompt folks to buy the new codex in order to ensure all their rules remains up to date. If there are only a few codexes released per years, that is a lot of material that would be usable via subscription. I own only a few 8th edition codecies, so the subscription giving me access total the codecies is quite tempting.
lare2 wrote: Why would they go after Battlescribe now? They've never cared about AoS being on there and Azyr's been out donkey's.
It's quite possible they won't. Though the key difference is that the AoS rules for units and such are available for free, and GW even provides a free list builder on their website.
40k however, has still kept nearly everything locked to codexes, and 40k has a much wider audience.
I see absolutely no meaningful benefit to this app.
Depending on how ui works not having to wait 5min as opponents flips through bs and/or pdf's/ebooks is very nice. And compared to bs not having public easy to edit files making life easier for cheaters is also nice. Those files are super easy to edit. Better rules and cheaper costs? Dirt easy. And unless opponent is familiar with army him/herself no way to identify. Fake files are just as "official" as reqular bs files.
Even if GW has no legal recourse to go after Battlescribe, they can still do so. It still requires Battlescribe to get representation for their case, and there are a lot of costs for that. Maybe they can recoup those later, maybe not. Going after Microsoft, and going after some tiny company are completely different kinds of animals.
There is a very good chance that if GW sent battlescribe a C&D, they would just fold, even if Battlescribe are legally in the right. The cost and resources to fight something like this are a major ask for a few indie developers.
If GW truly believed that they would have sued Battlescribe ages ago like they did with the 40k list builder at the start of 8th.
lare2 wrote: Why would they go after Battlescribe now? They've never cared about AoS being on there and Azyr's been out donkey's.
the 40k App is very different to the AoS App, no free rules and no free army builder
and why should someone pay GW for their army builder of he can get BS for free (and as you can find BS files with the relevant 8th edition unit rules as well, the App has nothing to offer you cannot get somewhere else)
I see absolutely no meaningful benefit to this app.
It's simply bundling convenience together and charging for it. You can still do everything you could do now without the app.
for 5 bucks a month, to have all my dexes, rules, and listbuilding and quick reference in one spot that's easy to use spot is worth it to me, personally.
Even if GW has no legal recourse to go after Battlescribe, they can still do so. It still requires Battlescribe to get representation for their case, and there are a lot of costs for that. Maybe they can recoup those later, maybe not. Going after Microsoft, and going after some tiny company are completely different kinds of animals.
There is a very good chance that if GW sent battlescribe a C&D, they would just fold, even if Battlescribe are legally in the right. The cost and resources to fight something like this are a major ask for a few indie developers.
If GW truly believed that they would have sued Battlescribe ages ago.
Perhaps, Perhaps not. They are likely not actively loosing a lot money from Battlescribe right now. Once the App goes live, they now stand to possibly lose millions of dollars a year in lost subscriptions. So they have the incentive to actually take action now, and the cost of legal action could be offset by the additional subscriptions.
lare2 wrote: Why would they go after Battlescribe now? They've never cared about AoS being on there and Azyr's been out donkey's.
the 40k App is very different to the AoS App, no free rules and no free army builder
and why should someone pay GW for their army builder of he can get BS for free (and as you can find BS files with the relevant 8th edition unit rules as well, the App has nothing to offer you cannot get somewhere else)
Neither app has free army builder.
And what gw app has over bs: trustworthy data. With bs datafile player uses is as reliable as data file creator AND opponent. For one datafiles could have error to begin with. And if opponent is not trustworthy he has easy as hell time modifying it to his tastes. It's very easy(bs's business model would be super bad if it WASN'T easy).
Also depending on gui it can be better finding exact rule midgame. Bs makes easier to add up points. Less easy finding specific rule midgame. Ebooks are not any better especially if you need multiple books. In 8th 6 books would be easy(besides ca and rulebook). Even in 9th 2 books or 4 isn't that hard.
Grrr is the correct response. I was hoping for points this week. I want to write some lists. Another disappointment. And that price converts to $5 a month. Why is the 40k app more expensive than the AoS app besides "just because we can"?
When I was tooling around with building a list building app that validates the lists the project was going to be really complex. 40K list building is no joke and I imagine the cost to get it built was quite high. The AoS builder is super rudimentary.
So what do you expect this list builder to do for $5 a month that battlescribe doesn't already do? Honest question.
Validated lists. Battlescribe can create incorrect lists. I can foresee tournaments like LVO saying, "we only accept lists through the GW app". It lifts the burden from them to do due diligence on lists.
Tournaments huh? So useless for me. Guess I'll just take the free part. If they'd included the points Saturday I'd have paid for the subscription.
Also nice to see primaris lieutenants are still cheaper than Exalted Champions.
darthryan wrote: I expect battlescribe to get hit with a stop using our rules or we will sue you letter in the next few weeks
Battlescribe is merely the platform. All the datafiles are community made.
there are lot of legal issues/discussions if a platfrom is responsible for everything the community is doing
hence why we are still not talking/posting points in forums (at least in German ones) because they Admins/Mods/Owners/Hosters are not 100% save that they can not be made responsible of GW sends a letter
so if you don't have the money to fight it out you better be on the save side
and until now there was never an official army builder for 40k, so we don't know if GW still don't care or just did not in the past because they had nothing to offer anyway
The app clearly offers stuff that BS doesn't - for a start it offers full rules whereas BS sometimes only gives the rule name but doesn't actually say what it does. BS is not updated to include amended text as a result of Errata/FAQ updates.
The army builder is coming so I'm not too worried by that not being available on day 1. I'm still in lockdown so it will likely be out before i next play.
The rest of it really depends on how slick and easy the user interface of the app is. BS is clunky at best but it is the best thing out there at the minute. If the app is easier to use then that alone, alongside incorporating the FAQ/Errata changes is enough for me.
At the moment, the app offers nothing. The self-proclaimed "number one feature" isn't being included at launch, contrary to what they initially claimed, and is so far behind schedule they have even dropped giving a release date for it at all.
Grrr is the correct response. I was hoping for points this week. I want to write some lists. Another disappointment. And that price converts to $5 a month. Why is the 40k app more expensive than the AoS app besides "just because we can"?
When I was tooling around with building a list building app that validates the lists the project was going to be really complex. 40K list building is no joke and I imagine the cost to get it built was quite high. The AoS builder is super rudimentary.
So what do you expect this list builder to do for $5 a month that battlescribe doesn't already do? Honest question.
Validated lists. Battlescribe can create incorrect lists. I can foresee tournaments like LVO saying, "we only accept lists through the GW app". It lifts the burden from them to do due diligence on lists.
Tournaments huh? So useless for me. Guess I'll just take the free part. If they'd included the points Saturday I'd have paid for the subscription.
Also nice to see primaris lieutenants are still cheaper than Exalted Champions.
Absolutely no way will it be good enough to be the tournament standard. The AoS app has been out for years and it is still wrong constantly.
Grrr is the correct response. I was hoping for points this week. I want to write some lists. Another disappointment. And that price converts to $5 a month. Why is the 40k app more expensive than the AoS app besides "just because we can"?
When I was tooling around with building a list building app that validates the lists the project was going to be really complex. 40K list building is no joke and I imagine the cost to get it built was quite high. The AoS builder is super rudimentary.
So what do you expect this list builder to do for $5 a month that battlescribe doesn't already do? Honest question.
Validated lists. Battlescribe can create incorrect lists. I can foresee tournaments like LVO saying, "we only accept lists through the GW app". It lifts the burden from them to do due diligence on lists.
Tournaments huh? So useless for me. Guess I'll just take the free part. If they'd included the points Saturday I'd have paid for the subscription.
Also nice to see primaris lieutenants are still cheaper than Exalted Champions.
Absolutely no way will it be good enough to be the tournament standard. The AoS app has been out for years and it is still wrong constantly.
Can you provide some recent examples of the AoS being wrong? I use it pretty consistently, and I don't recall it being wrong that often. I am curious at some the recent issues.
I think the subscriber fee is good value IF you haven't invested in too many 8th edition digital codices and is absolutely great value if you don't have many 8th edition codices and were interested in having them.
As for replacing those codices, even at a rate of two per month, it will take them nearly 18 months to replace and over that time frame you are spending est. $108 which is less than the cost of 3 codices.
I am not trying to shill for GW, but I think some people are being a little short sighted in judging the subscriber price solely on a as yet unseen list builder as the subscription price is not just for a list builder but for access to ~$950 worth of 8th edition codices day that will probably take over two years and likely longer to be retired. GW knows they have to get a list builder out soon, i.e. within the next month or two to maintain interest and momentum in the app which has been one of the most requested features of the community.
GW is paying people to make their version and need revenue to offset that expense. Not to say that comparisons to BattleScribe are not worthwhile, but BattleScribe is not paying anyone and the 40k data files would not be free* if it wasn't for the philanthropy and dedication of a relatively few committed 40k enthusiasts.
Finally I don’t think GW is going to go after BattleScribe. There is already the precedent with Lone Wolf Development, so GW knows where they stand legally.
this will be seen if it is up to date with no issues or not
faking BS files can checked with the printed stuff, but wrong point costs in the App or wrong rules are a problem as the App should have the latest stuff and you cannot proof it wrong with an outdated book
so we will se how reliable it will be in the end
Automatically Appended Next Post:
angryboy2k wrote: 352 pages in... does anyone have regional pricing info yet?
pre-order is in 2 days, we won't get official regional prices until that
Jesus Christ we just want the point costs for armies, let us play 9th Edition already, we have the core rules, the leaked missions, JUST LET US PLAAAY. I don't want to play broken 8th anymore. I'm so sick of this teasing and drawing everything at length for MONTHS. Why does it take two weeks to take preorders while it's usually one week ? Seriously half the summer will be gone and we're still with drip-fed informations we already know.
Just release a PDF already Jesus. Nobody's buying stuff except Marine and Necrons players who ordered Indomitus, the rest of us are too scared to buy boxes that will be possibly useless in two weeks. What's the point of waiting dragging everything for so long ?
Aaranis wrote: Jesus Christ we just want the point costs for armies, let us play 9th Edition already, we have the core rules, the leaked missions, JUST LET US PLAAAY. I don't want to play broken 8th anymore. I'm so sick of this teasing and drawing everything at length for MONTHS. Why does it take two weeks to take preorders while it's usually one week ? Seriously half the summer will be gone and we're still with drip-fed informations we already know.
Just release a PDF already Jesus. Nobody's buying stuff except Marine and Necrons players who ordered Indomitus, the rest of us are too scared to buy boxes that will be possibly useless in two weeks. What's the point of waiting dragging everything for so long ?
You can't have the points until the release Chapter Approved, you know... another book.
Yeah, they gotta find some way to get normal people who don't go to tournaments to to buy the $40 tournament book.
We probably should have known better than to trust the PR spin that they were going to give people the points on July 11, two weeks before the release of the book with the points in it. It feels much more like GW to wait a month or two after release to implement the army builder feature on the app...after the really desperate have shelled out for the book.
That's ok, I've had 3 FLGS and 2 other stores on The InterWebs inform myself and other customers, that GW is cutting their amounts of pre-orders that will ship because they oversold.
Can't wait for the sweet rage from the Community when Pre-Orders get cancelled and it sells out to scalpers on the GW site day 1.
Aaranis wrote: Jesus Christ we just want the point costs for armies, let us play 9th Edition already, we have the core rules, the leaked missions, JUST LET US PLAAAY. I don't want to play broken 8th anymore. I'm so sick of this teasing and drawing everything at length for MONTHS. Why does it take two weeks to take preorders while it's usually one week ? Seriously half the summer will be gone and we're still with drip-fed informations we already know.
Just release a PDF already Jesus. Nobody's buying stuff except Marine and Necrons players who ordered Indomitus, the rest of us are too scared to buy boxes that will be possibly useless in two weeks. What's the point of waiting dragging everything for so long ?
You could play Power Level if you're that desperate.
And I'm picking up the Apoc Eldar box from.my FLGS tonight, so some of us are still working on army projects.
The points will all be leaked after the new ca is released anyway. If it takes that long. Gw's just costing themselves money. If they'd included points in the app subscription then it would have sold big day one.
TalonZahn wrote: That's ok, I've had 3 FLGS and 2 other stores on The InterWebs inform myself and other customers, that GW is cutting their amounts of pre-orders that will ship because they oversold.
Can't wait for the sweet rage from the Community when Pre-Orders get cancelled and it sells out to scalpers on the GW site day 1.
They probably oversold to the FLGS and needed their direct pre-order allotment fluffed back up.
Heck, when you hear of stores ordering a minimum of 300 copies it's obvious GW is going to go "lol, nope".
Gadzilla666 wrote: The points will all be leaked after the new ca is released anyway. If it takes that long. Gw's just costing themselves money. If they'd included points in the app subscription then it would have sold big day one.
That's what most of us will do, no doubt. But GW wouldn't put out a CA20XX every year if some people didn't buy them.
The new Chapter Approved Grand Tournament 2020 is really nice. Lovely new size, ring bound so lies perfectly flat and a handy elastic page mark. Loads of missions and all the rules summaries in the back. Realy much better than any previous version and will be super popular I reckon. The Field Manual is a normal book albeit in the new smaller size.
Aaranis wrote: Jesus Christ we just want the point costs for armies, let us play 9th Edition already, we have the core rules, the leaked missions, JUST LET US PLAAAY. I don't want to play broken 8th anymore. I'm so sick of this teasing and drawing everything at length for MONTHS. Why does it take two weeks to take preorders while it's usually one week ? Seriously half the summer will be gone and we're still with drip-fed informations we already know.
Just release a PDF already Jesus. Nobody's buying stuff except Marine and Necrons players who ordered Indomitus, the rest of us are too scared to buy boxes that will be possibly useless in two weeks. What's the point of waiting dragging everything for so long ?
If by useless you mean not best in slot, be a hobbyist and buy/paint what you like.
Aaranis wrote: Jesus Christ we just want the point costs for armies, let us play 9th Edition already, we have the core rules, the leaked missions, JUST LET US PLAAAY. I don't want to play broken 8th anymore. I'm so sick of this teasing and drawing everything at length for MONTHS. Why does it take two weeks to take preorders while it's usually one week ? Seriously half the summer will be gone and we're still with drip-fed informations we already know.
Just release a PDF already Jesus. Nobody's buying stuff except Marine and Necrons players who ordered Indomitus, the rest of us are too scared to buy boxes that will be possibly useless in two weeks. What's the point of waiting dragging everything for so long ?
You could play Power Level if you're that desperate.
And I'm picking up the Apoc Eldar box from.my FLGS tonight, so some of us are still working on army projects.
Power Level is getting revised too (supposedly) and is not really great for Matched Play. I'll just wait, but I'm more upset about that senseless teasing they do every time they release something and drag it down forever. I should just chill out.
I'm angry because we essentially have half of 9th and it's going to stay that way for a long time still. And oh yeah, putting the points behind yet another paywall is a bad move.
Tiberius501 wrote: The limited edition core rule book is over triple the cost of the normal book... for a front cover.... hahahaha. Ah GW you guys are funny.
A fabric cover. Makes it extra easy to dirty.
I was a bit surprised that there wasn't a box like they did for 6th with tokens, a mini rulebook and some other stuff (like a purity seal magnet). 9th's LE is the plainest I think I've ever seen.
Tiberius501 wrote: The limited edition core rule book is over triple the cost of the normal book... for a front cover.... hahahaha. Ah GW you guys are funny.
I don't believe we have confirmation that the only difference is the slipcover and alternate artwork on the book's cover. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if it comes with the pre-order bonuses at the very least.
Hmmm... I wonder if the marketing of this app will be good enough people forget the failures of previour GW application that remained without support very very fast (magic 40k application for example).
I bet you will have to buy every codex physically in order to look at any of those codexes rules or try any list building on top of paying a subscription. I hope i am wrong but....
Sasori wrote: GW doesn't actually need to win or even be in the right to succeed. The threat of a C&D and a lawsuit is often enough from larger companies to get what they want.
Even if they are 100% right, companies still have to fight it in court. This is (Sadly) a pretty common tactic.
The last time GW tried that it backfired pretty spectacularly. There is no way they'll want to head down that route again.
Sasori wrote: GW doesn't actually need to win or even be in the right to succeed. The threat of a C&D and a lawsuit is often enough from larger companies to get what they want.
Even if they are 100% right, companies still have to fight it in court. This is (Sadly) a pretty common tactic.
The last time GW tried that it backfired pretty spectacularly. There is no way they'll want to head down that route again.
You say that as if they are capable of learning from their mistakes.
TalonZahn wrote: That's ok, I've had 3 FLGS and 2 other stores on The InterWebs inform myself and other customers, that GW is cutting their amounts of pre-orders that will ship because they oversold.
Can't wait for the sweet rage from the Community when Pre-Orders get cancelled and it sells out to scalpers on the GW site day 1.
The way I understand it independent stockists were told they could order 45 boxes.
They then tried to order more then 45.
To everyone's surprise GW then said "lol nope, your only getting 45".
But as this is the internet I could be wrong but this doesn't sound like GW's fault.
Doohicky wrote: Oh wait, I just looked at the picture in the article and it has the point cost of the primaris lieutenant in it.
Yeah, and I noticed something strange in it.
It says that you can get a second primaris lieutenant for +4 power rating.
Beside the weird mix of points and power level, isn't it weird to buy two lieutenants for one slot? And unless there is a rule beside, it seems they are a unit together???
Maybe this is something you could already do but it seems weird.
Sasori wrote: GW doesn't actually need to win or even be in the right to succeed. The threat of a C&D and a lawsuit is often enough from larger companies to get what they want.
Even if they are 100% right, companies still have to fight it in court. This is (Sadly) a pretty common tactic.
The last time GW tried that it backfired pretty spectacularly. There is no way they'll want to head down that route again.
If you are referring to Chapterhouse, neither side came out very well in the end. However, the only reason Chapterhouse even made it that far was because they had pro-bono representation from one of the most prestigious lawfirms in the country. Chapterhouse still ended up shutting down in the end. Would battlescribe be willing to take that risk?
Doohicky wrote: Oh wait, I just looked at the picture in the article and it has the point cost of the primaris lieutenant in it.
Yeah, and I noticed something strange in it.
It says that you can get a second primaris lieutenant for +4 power rating.
Beside the weird mix of points and power level, isn't it weird to buy two lieutenants for one slot? And unless there is a rule beside, it seems they are a unit together???
Maybe this is something you could already do but it seems weird.
I don't play loyalists, but ca 2019 lists all of the various lieutenants as 1-2 models per unit.
And they're all either cheaper or the same price as an Exalted Champion, except with a jump pack, which is 3 ppm more.
yukishiro1 wrote: Yeah, they gotta find some way to get normal people who don't go to tournaments to to buy the $40 tournament book.
We probably should have known better than to trust the PR spin that they were going to give people the points on July 11, two weeks before the release of the book with the points in it. It feels much more like GW to wait a month or two after release to implement the army builder feature on the app...after the really desperate have shelled out for the book.
It looks like points could be in the datasheets and with access to all the books I imagine that would cover it with a subscription. We'll have to wait and see though.
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DiscoKing wrote: The new Chapter Approved Grand Tournament 2020 is really nice. Lovely new size, ring bound so lies perfectly flat and a handy elastic page mark. Loads of missions and all the rules summaries in the back. Realy much better than any previous version and will be super popular I reckon. The Field Manual is a normal book albeit in the new smaller size.
How much do I need to pay you to ninja some pages with your cellphone?
Tiberius501 wrote: The limited edition core rule book is over triple the cost of the normal book... for a front cover.... hahahaha. Ah GW you guys are funny.
1 of 2000. For people who like that sort of thing.
Sasori wrote: GW doesn't actually need to win or even be in the right to succeed. The threat of a C&D and a lawsuit is often enough from larger companies to get what they want.
Even if they are 100% right, companies still have to fight it in court. This is (Sadly) a pretty common tactic.
The last time GW tried that it backfired pretty spectacularly. There is no way they'll want to head down that route again.
You say that as if they are capable of learning from their mistakes.
DiscoKing wrote: The new Chapter Approved Grand Tournament 2020 is really nice. Lovely new size, ring bound so lies perfectly flat and a handy elastic page mark. Loads of missions and all the rules summaries in the back. Realy much better than any previous version and will be super popular I reckon. The Field Manual is a normal book albeit in the new smaller size.
Edit: Oh, nevermind, I get it. It's two separate books, but sold together.
The reverse side of the Battlezone tiles looks like some of the Kill Team tiles, but I can't tell if it is identical. If it's not, it's a great way to expand those tiles, but if it is, it's a lot less useful to me. Can anyone pull a Spot the Difference?
If you are referring to Chapterhouse, neither side came out very well in the end. However, the only reason Chapterhouse even made it that far was because they had pro-bono representation from one of the most prestigious lawfirms in the country. Chapterhouse still ended up shutting down in the end. Would battlescribe be willing to take that risk?
The reverse side of the Battlezone tiles looks like some of the Kill Team tiles, but I can't tell if it is identical. If it's not, it's a great way to expand those tiles, but if it is, it's a lot less useful to me. Can anyone pull a Spot the Difference?
Well, I know that those supports for the container are new, the container itself is reused from the mechanicum building if I recall. Curious to see if that's everything in the box of what though.
yukishiro1 wrote: Yeah, they gotta find some way to get normal people who don't go to tournaments to to buy the $40 tournament book.
We probably should have known better than to trust the PR spin that they were going to give people the points on July 11, two weeks before the release of the book with the points in it. It feels much more like GW to wait a month or two after release to implement the army builder feature on the app...after the really desperate have shelled out for the book.
It looks like points could be in the datasheets and with access to all the books I imagine that would cover it with a subscription. We'll have to wait and see though.
I hadn't considered that. If the subscription auto-updates codexes then points should be included in the existing codexes. Unfortunately the article said that the app will be launching in the coming weeks, not the 11th as originally announced. So still more waiting for points.
Prices are pretty much what I expected. The Boxed Set is actually a pretty good value as it's cheaper than two start collectings and the rule book combined with a lot more content. 65 Dollars for a book isn't great, but it could be worse. Most hardback RPG books of equivalent size are between 50-60.
As far as the app goes, I'm actually pretty excited for it. Assuming as it is functional and what not, it seems like a good concept in that I wouldn't have to tug around 9 books to go around with my giant bags of models to a game. I'm also kind of excited for the 8th books to be free until they get updated, as I'm getting back into the game and neither of the armies I plan on playing (Chaos and Guard) will likely be updated soon. Because of that it will save me buying codexes that will likely become obsolete relatively soon.
The price for subscription is actually a lot more reasonable than I expected too. I was expecting closer to 12 pounds or so a month.
People freaking out about Battlescribe are barking up the wrong tree. Battlescribe doesn't make the datafiles for the games within. It's just a shell that loads independently sourced datafiles for people to use to make their lists. Just like the Lone Wolf Army Builder we had for years during Kirby's days of C&Ding everything and everyone.
Plus Battlescribe has AoS datafiles despite their being and AoS armt builder and GW hasn't said anything about that.
Is it possible that the reason for the delay is that they are updating the existing codexes? Not just points but making plasma explode on natural 1s etcetera?
I think GW is smart enough these days to know that the easier they make it for people to use the models they buy from them at a huge markup, the better. Going after BS doesn't help them sell models, and that's their core business.
Honestly, they'd probably make more money if they just released the rules - 100% of them - online for free, with the books just for people who want a hard copy. One of the biggest barriers to getting people involved in the game is "ok, you're interested in 40k? Pony up $100 for the rules before you can even play any games."
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Gadzilla666 wrote: Is it possible that the reason for the delay is that they are updating the existing codexes? Not just points but making plasma explode on natural 1s etcetera?
No. If that was the case, they would say so, to smooth things over. There is zero reason for them to abandon their release schedule with no explanation if there is a good explanation.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is smart enough these days to know that the easier they make it for people to use the models they buy from them at a huge markup, the better. Going after BS doesn't help them sell models, and that's their core business.
Honestly, they'd probably make more money if they just released the rules - 100% of them - online for free, with the books just for people who want a hard copy. One of the biggest barriers to getting people involved in the game is "ok, you're interested in 40k? Pony up $100 for the rules before you can even play any games."
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Gadzilla666 wrote: Is it possible that the reason for the delay is that they are updating the existing codexes? Not just points but making plasma explode on natural 1s etcetera?
No. If that was the case, they would say so, to smooth things over. There is zero reason for them to abandon their release schedule with no explanation if there is a good explanation.
It's also possibly not worth all the good will they've gained back to go after BattleScribe, but I'm not one of their businesses analysts.
Speaking of, I'm pretty confident they've done market research and analysis on the benefit of making the rules free.
With the Core rules being free and available in the app, I wouldn't be surprised if you can buy the codexs for cheaper in the app, like AoS. That would reduce the cost of entry, and entice some people to start using the app subscription.
Thinking of GW's legal team, the only thing I've heard them doing since Chapterhouse was sending Arch Warhammer a.CJD about his use of "Warhammer" as it is damaging GW's trademark to be associated with him.
I think GW is finally starting to get that the best way to stop people going outside its own ecosystem is just to, well, make it easy to stay inside. Giving the rules away free online is the logical next step on this, as the ridiculous prices charged for the rules are by far the number one reason people go to outside sources to get their material.
The app is probably the first step in this direction. Yes, they still want to sell people new $40 books if they can, but what they really want people to do is get used to the idea of paying $60 a year for the rules, and that this is a "deal," when really they ought to just be releasing rules updates for free.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is smart enough these days to know that the easier they make it for people to use the models they buy from them at a huge markup, the better. Going after BS doesn't help them sell models, and that's their core business.
Honestly, they'd probably make more money if they just released the rules - 100% of them - online for free, with the books just for people who want a hard copy. One of the biggest barriers to getting people involved in the game is "ok, you're interested in 40k? Pony up $100 for the rules before you can even play any games."
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Gadzilla666 wrote: Is it possible that the reason for the delay is that they are updating the existing codexes? Not just points but making plasma explode on natural 1s etcetera?
No. If that was the case, they would say so, to smooth things over. There is zero reason for them to abandon their release schedule with no explanation if there is a good explanation.
It's also possibly not worth all the good will they've gained back to go after BattleScribe, but I'm not one of their businesses analysts.
Speaking of, I'm pretty confident they've done market research and analysis on the benefit of making the rules free.
With the Core rules being free and available in the app, I wouldn't be surprised if you can buy the codexs for cheaper in the app, like AoS. That would reduce the cost of entry, and entice some people to start using the app subscription.
They offer that? How much cheaper are the AoS codexes in the app?
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is finally starting to get that the best way to stop people going outside its own ecosystem is just to, well, make it easy to stay inside. Giving the rules away free online is the logical next step on this, as the ridiculous prices charged for the rules are by far the number one reason people go to outside sources to get their material.
The app is probably the first step in this direction. Yes, they still want to sell people new $40 books if they can, but what they really want people to do is get used to the idea of paying $60 a year for the rules, and that this is a "deal," when really they ought to just be releasing rules updates for free.
Yeah, I could see GW attempting that strategy, and with how it is currently I don’t know how many it will appeal to. But if it were 60 bucks a year and I got access to every codex and supplement release I would be okay with that.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is finally starting to get that the best way to stop people going outside its own ecosystem is just to, well, make it easy to stay inside. Giving the rules away free online is the logical next step on this, as the ridiculous prices charged for the rules are by far the number one reason people go to outside sources to get their material.
The app is probably the first step in this direction. Yes, they still want to sell people new $40 books if they can, but what they really want people to do is get used to the idea of paying $60 a year for the rules, and that this is a "deal," when really they ought to just be releasing rules updates for free.
Not sure this holds up. This is going in the exact opposite direction (charging people twice, and one of those on an ongoing basis). That's a far cry from heading towards free rules.
Its actually worse than Microsoft charging a 'service fee' for a year's subscription to MS Office, rather than just buying the current version forever. This is the worst of both worlds, and no amount of justification allows it to make any sort of sense at the consumer end.
Oh, I agree. But that was kinda my point. They know what way the wind is blowing in general but think they've found a smart way to turn it to their advantage and double-bill people while also locking them into their app.
Whether it works depends on how boiled the frogs are. If it works, they'll just make even more money and double down on charging people for rules. If it doesn't work, they can transition to just giving stuff away for "free" via the subscription, and still get money that way - and people will even praise them for being "generous" for doing it. It's a win/win at this point.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is smart enough these days to know that the easier they make it for people to use the models they buy from them at a huge markup, the better. Going after BS doesn't help them sell models, and that's their core business.
Honestly, they'd probably make more money if they just released the rules - 100% of them - online for free, with the books just for people who want a hard copy. One of the biggest barriers to getting people involved in the game is "ok, you're interested in 40k? Pony up $100 for the rules before you can even play any games."
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Gadzilla666 wrote: Is it possible that the reason for the delay is that they are updating the existing codexes? Not just points but making plasma explode on natural 1s etcetera?
No. If that was the case, they would say so, to smooth things over. There is zero reason for them to abandon their release schedule with no explanation if there is a good explanation.
It's also possibly not worth all the good will they've gained back to go after BattleScribe, but I'm not one of their businesses analysts.
Speaking of, I'm pretty confident they've done market research and analysis on the benefit of making the rules free.
With the Core rules being free and available in the app, I wouldn't be surprised if you can buy the codexs for cheaper in the app, like AoS. That would reduce the cost of entry, and entice some people to start using the app subscription.
They offer that? How much cheaper are the AoS codexes in the app?
16 bucks a pop before tax. I think it ends up being around 18 when you account for that. I don't really even buy the hard copies for AoS anymore, since I use the app for everything.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is smart enough these days to know that the easier they make it for people to use the models they buy from them at a huge markup, the better. Going after BS doesn't help them sell models, and that's their core business.
Honestly, they'd probably make more money if they just released the rules - 100% of them - online for free, with the books just for people who want a hard copy. One of the biggest barriers to getting people involved in the game is "ok, you're interested in 40k? Pony up $100 for the rules before you can even play any games."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Is it possible that the reason for the delay is that they are updating the existing codexes? Not just points but making plasma explode on natural 1s etcetera?
No. If that was the case, they would say so, to smooth things over. There is zero reason for them to abandon their release schedule with no explanation if there is a good explanation.
It's also possibly not worth all the good will they've gained back to go after BattleScribe, but I'm not one of their businesses analysts.
Speaking of, I'm pretty confident they've done market research and analysis on the benefit of making the rules free.
With the Core rules being free and available in the app, I wouldn't be surprised if you can buy the codexs for cheaper in the app, like AoS. That would reduce the cost of entry, and entice some people to start using the app subscription.
They offer that? How much cheaper are the AoS codexes in the app?
16 bucks a pop before tax. I think it ends up being around 18 when you account for that. I don't really even buy the hard copies for AoS anymore, since I use the app for everything.
Thanks for the info. If they do that it might make this worthwhile.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is finally starting to get that the best way to stop people going outside its own ecosystem is just to, well, make it easy to stay inside. Giving the rules away free online is the logical next step on this, as the ridiculous prices charged for the rules are by far the number one reason people go to outside sources to get their material.
The app is probably the first step in this direction. Yes, they still want to sell people new $40 books if they can, but what they really want people to do is get used to the idea of paying $60 a year for the rules, and that this is a "deal," when really they ought to just be releasing rules updates for free.
The rules are already available for free to download right now, not sure how you are reasoning this out to $60/year for them.
I like the idea of the app and subscription model a lot. I think it would be great if we eventually got it to the stage that the rules went digital and the books that were released were nice "lore books" detailing the various factions and the universe at large. They could make for a great collection that wouldn't be outdated by new rules and you could slowly build up a definite "library" of sorts, that catalogue and describe the 40k Universe.
ClockworkZion wrote:People freaking out about Battlescribe are barking up the wrong tree. Battlescribe doesn't make the datafiles for the games within. It's just a shell that loads independently sourced datafiles for people to use to make their lists. Just like the Lone Wolf Army Builder we had for years during Kirby's days of C&Ding everything and everyone.
Plus Battlescribe has AoS datafiles despite their being and AoS armt builder and GW hasn't said anything about that.
Lone Wolf Army Builder had a licens from GW to do it and the AoS Army Builder is free to use
so not really the same, but only future will tell
going after the platform that makes hosting the illegal content possible is a thing. I know that BS that it that way to be save from any claims in the first place but this does not prevent anyone from starting something (outcome is a different story anyway)
ClockworkZion wrote:Thinking of GW's legal team, the only thing I've heard them doing since Chapterhouse was sending Arch Warhammer a.CJD about his use of "Warhammer" as it is damaging GW's trademark to be associated with him.
Fluffhammer, German community project for updated 8th edition rules (still required the original stuff to be played) got a letter to shut their website down some weeks ago
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is finally starting to get that the best way to stop people going outside its own ecosystem is just to, well, make it easy to stay inside. Giving the rules away free online is the logical next step on this, as the ridiculous prices charged for the rules are by far the number one reason people go to outside sources to get their material.
The app is probably the first step in this direction. Yes, they still want to sell people new $40 books if they can, but what they really want people to do is get used to the idea of paying $60 a year for the rules, and that this is a "deal," when really they ought to just be releasing rules updates for free.
The rules are already available for free to download right now, not sure how you are reasoning this out to $60/year for them.
the free rules are missing an important part, so you have to either buy the book or get the App to play the game
which is the way to get people using the App in the first place as it provides free stuff that you can't get somewhere else
ClockworkZion wrote:People freaking out about Battlescribe are barking up the wrong tree. Battlescribe doesn't make the datafiles for the games within. It's just a shell that loads independently sourced datafiles for people to use to make their lists. Just like the Lone Wolf Army Builder we had for years during Kirby's days of C&Ding everything and everyone.
Plus Battlescribe has AoS datafiles despite their being and AoS armt builder and GW hasn't said anything about that.
Lone Wolf Army Builder had a licens from GW to do it and the AoS Army Builder is free to use
so not really the same, but only future will tell
going after the platform that makes hosting the illegal content possible is a thing. I know that BS that it that way to be save from any claims in the first place but this does not prevent anyone from starting something (outcome is a different story anyway)
ClockworkZion wrote:Thinking of GW's legal team, the only thing I've heard them doing since Chapterhouse was sending Arch Warhammer a.CJD about his use of "Warhammer" as it is damaging GW's trademark to be associated with him.
Fluffhammer, German community project for updated 8th edition rules (still required the original stuff to be played) got a letter to shut their website down some weeks ago
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is finally starting to get that the best way to stop people going outside its own ecosystem is just to, well, make it easy to stay inside. Giving the rules away free online is the logical next step on this, as the ridiculous prices charged for the rules are by far the number one reason people go to outside sources to get their material.
The app is probably the first step in this direction. Yes, they still want to sell people new $40 books if they can, but what they really want people to do is get used to the idea of paying $60 a year for the rules, and that this is a "deal," when really they ought to just be releasing rules updates for free.
The rules are already available for free to download right now, not sure how you are reasoning this out to $60/year for them.
the free rules are missing an important part, so you have to either buy the book or get the App to play the game
which is the way to get people using the App in the first place as it provides free stuff that you can't get somewhere else
Fair point, but BS doesn't host the files, currently GitHub does.
And I hadn't heard about Fluffhammer. Surprised that news wasn't bigger.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is finally starting to get that the best way to stop people going outside its own ecosystem is just to, well, make it easy to stay inside. Giving the rules away free online is the logical next step on this, as the ridiculous prices charged for the rules are by far the number one reason people go to outside sources to get their material.
The app is probably the first step in this direction. Yes, they still want to sell people new $40 books if they can, but what they really want people to do is get used to the idea of paying $60 a year for the rules, and that this is a "deal," when really they ought to just be releasing rules updates for free.
The rules are already available for free to download right now, not sure how you are reasoning this out to $60/year for them.
the free rules are missing an important part, so you have to either buy the book or get the App to play the game
which is the way to get people using the App in the first place as it provides free stuff that you can't get somewhere else
Right, so we can do exactly what we did before (+free digital codex) while people who prefer using the app method can do that instead. It is like having a menu only for oranges, then they add apples to the menu as well as the oranges.
And I hadn't heard about Fluffhammer. Surprised that news wasn't bigger.
I have no details and they made no big news about, I just recognised it after I could not get on the website any more, asked the people what happend and they only information I got was that GW send a C+D and they removed it
no one made anything big out of it (don't know if this was part of the letter or other reasons)
just guessing that this has something to do with The Old World game GW coming up with
And I hadn't heard about Fluffhammer. Surprised that news wasn't bigger.
I have no details and they made no big news about, I just recognised it after I could not get on the website any more, asked the people what happend and they only information I got was that GW send a C+D and they removed it
no one made anything big out of it (don't know if this was part of the letter or other reasons)
just guessing that this has something to do with The Old World game GW coming up with
Aaranis wrote: Jesus Christ we just want the point costs for armies, let us play 9th Edition already, we have the core rules, the leaked missions, JUST LET US PLAAAY. I don't want to play broken 8th anymore. I'm so sick of this teasing and drawing everything at length for MONTHS. Why does it take two weeks to take preorders while it's usually one week ? Seriously half the summer will be gone and we're still with drip-fed informations we already know.
Just release a PDF already Jesus. Nobody's buying stuff except Marine and Necrons players who ordered Indomitus, the rest of us are too scared to buy boxes that will be possibly useless in two weeks. What's the point of waiting dragging everything for so long ?
You could play Power Level if you're that desperate.
And I'm picking up the Apoc Eldar box from.my FLGS tonight, so some of us are still working on army projects.
Power Level is getting revised too (supposedly) and is not really great for Matched Play. I'll just wait, but I'm more upset about that senseless teasing they do every time they release something and drag it down forever. I should just chill out.
I'm angry because we essentially have half of 9th and it's going to stay that way for a long time still. And oh yeah, putting the points behind yet another paywall is a bad move.
What we can learn from this. Gw should have kept silent of 9th longer. Make first hint about it in july.
If you are referring to Chapterhouse, neither side came out very well in the end. However, the only reason Chapterhouse even made it that far was because they had pro-bono representation from one of the most prestigious lawfirms in the country. Chapterhouse still ended up shutting down in the end. Would battlescribe be willing to take that risk?
Opposed to what just roll over and die?
Beats taking tons of loans and dying anyway with additional loans to cover.
Galas wrote: People spent all of 8th complaining about elite units not being worth it because cheap was better... now cheap is not better and we complaint?
Like. Didn't thousand sons players wanted to play rubrics instead of Tzaangors?
I understand. All units should have a place. But I believe people is overeacting. And even if they aren't, who cares? In tops 4-5 months things will change and the "meta" will shake again just like in 8th.
There was a time were it was worth the shoot to buy the most OP stuff because it would be OP 4-6 years. Now it is at most 8 months before it gets nerfed. Is much more productive to try and improve your skill as a player, and not care that much about the power spikes of certain units.
\
at the start of 8th.... elite troops sucked hordes were very much the way to go.
And this was, in fact, bad for the game.
Now, however, we are in the primaris era. Primaris marines have fully supplanted hordes of chaff as being useful. Hordes are no longer the obvious way to go. And this is also bad, but not because hordes are no longer as effective, but because primaris are way too effective.
Also nerfing the gak out of cultists is hardly going to make chaos space marines not suck giant balls. Which I think is what's really gonna stick in the craw of chaos players. Rubrics are not, actually, suddenly playable in any competitive sense. People would fething love it if they could break out their chaos marines and not be handicapping themselves. But they cannot. Nerfing cultists does nothing but hurt chaos because it isn't like GW's decided to make CSM not suck. And, mate, they are certainly not going to give CSM better points than tacticals, and GW's trying real hard to kill tacticals dead.
I’m sure read / saw something a while back that, certainly in the US, you can’t actually copyright game mechanics, including the rules. You can only copyright the fluffier stuff, e.g. names (providing they’re not too generic), artwork, etc. Might make it very difficult to even go after the BattleScribe data files.
I agree it's probably a bit of a kneejerk reaction overall, the root of the problem stems in that they've not made the rubrics better, they just make a blob of tzaangors worse. If you got 2nd to last in a race of 100 people, the guy who got 50th position being disqualified doesn't make you any more likely to be on the podium.
No, the root of the problem is that people insist upon copy/pasting netlists and riding the coattails of people that are deemed as "good" because of tournament performances and crap like that. They insist upon getting things in one initial swoop for starting an army, rather than playing slowgrows and building things up while experimenting with what they like.
Kanluwen wrote: The "why" of the change is because people whined, and now that they got their wish they'll whine again.
It's an endless cycle of whining.
In the grim darkness of the far future there is only salt.
When your logic is bad, just accuse your opponent of whining!
"Conscripts are overpowered!"
--Conscripts and Commissars get nerfed into the ground
"Guard are overpowered!"
--Guard get nerfed with a points bump to BS3+ unit weapons
all the while people are outright explaining that the issue is the Command Point generation being handed out to other factions via Guard and that a simple fix is forbidding Guard from granting CPs to other factions...whole thing is ignored.
So yeah, you can keep saying "when your logic is bad, just accuse your opponent of whining!"...but it is not necessarily wrong.
"Never ever ask for better rules! Ever!"
Conscript nerf was good for the game. They probably nerfed commissars too hard the other way, but it was better than nigh immortal blobs of infantry.
I mean, on one hand we can accept 40k is just forever broken and a fundamentally terrible game. Or we can demand GW tries to make a better one. Which do you think is better?
I'm always for better rules. I just don't always agree with the internet where the problems are.
I also have strong opinions about points too, but it's all in the name of wanting a game that has more room to be fine tuned properly.
That said, I sincerely hope we get the day one FAQs when the pre-order goes live so we can at least start getting any idea how our armies will be changing even if we don't know about the points yet.
Jadenim wrote: I’m sure read / saw something a while back that, certainly in the US, you can’t actually copyright game mechanics, including the rules. You can only copyright the fluffier stuff, e.g. names (providing they’re not too generic), artwork, etc. Might make it very difficult to even go after the BattleScribe data files.
not only in the US, rules cannot, but the wording can and the idea behind if it is something new
hence why GW does not use the obvious stuff but makes it different even if the outcome is the same (so that hey have something new no one has used before)
yet going to court is something different as just because you are right does not mean you win and you need the money to do so in the first place
kodos wrote: For now it is not even a list builder as the feature is marked with "coming soon"
ClockworkZion wrote: Well they pointed out that the books will be updated for all FAQs and the like, so that's a nice sales pitch for the app alone.
so now we pay for bug-fix
Go reread that article. If you buy have the 9th ed codex, then you can access it on the app for free. All FAQs will be added for free as well. You only have yo pay to get all the 8th ed books when it launches.
It's actually ambiguous enough wording that you can read it as "And you need to subscribe to see your points". Which would be insane, but, also, super GW.
ClockworkZion wrote: Well they pointed out that the books will be updated for all FAQs and the like, so that's a nice sales pitch for the app alone.
No it isn't. 'We fixed the errors we made, and you can have them for free or pay for them' is incoherent.... unless they get into scummy business practices and stop providing access to the error-fixes for free. And then they're just being jerks (and possibly violating laws about selling faulty products)
If you're buying the books then you get a free digital copy, which gets free digital updates to match the FAQs which is great for quick reference during games. I don't get this claim where paying for the updates is coming from.
I am betting however, that not subscribing will rip all the hyperlinks out of the book you bought. Cause that is a super app style grift.
Sasori wrote: Even if they are 100% right, companies still have to fight it in court. This is (Sadly) a pretty common tactic.
I think they recently c+d'd "popular rule encyclopaedia that I'm not sure I can name on Dakka". I believe they laughed because they are in Russia.
The funny thing is, it's not actually clear at all if wahapedia (which I found literally today weirdly) is breaching any copyrights or trademarks, and, like, communities like dakka are so friggen scared of being smacked with suits they'd knuckle under immediately from mentioning the very existence of it.
Because a large corporation can trivially dump a million plus dollars to bury your ass, and here in America, can do it for no cost to themselves if they file in the right state. Hope you like losing all your money to legal fees, even when you win. This is a totally fair and equal balance of power a free market relies upon of course.
darthryan wrote: I expect battlescribe to get hit with a stop using our rules or we will sue you letter in the next few weeks
Battlescribe doesn't officially supports 40k rules, it is the community who makes 40k modules for Battlescribe.
It would be like trying to sue Excel, it wouldn't get anywhere and would be laughed out of court.
There are a few key differences here.
GW doesn't actually need to win or even be in the right to succeed. The threat of a C&D and a lawsuit is often enough from larger companies to get what they want.
Even if they are 100% right, companies still have to fight it in court. This is (Sadly) a pretty common tactic.
And judges can sanction lawyers and fine plaintiffs for filing frivolous lawsuits exactly so things like this don't happen.
Like I said, just pick a state here in America where such lawsuits are allowed. There's plenty. The company would have to royally piss a judge off for the judge to fine them.
Even if GW has no legal recourse to go after Battlescribe, they can still do so. It still requires Battlescribe to get representation for their case, and there are a lot of costs for that. Maybe they can recoup those later, maybe not. Going after Microsoft, and going after some tiny company are completely different kinds of animals.
There is a very good chance that if GW sent battlescribe a C&D, they would just fold, even if Battlescribe are legally in the right. The cost and resources to fight something like this are a major ask for a few indie developers.
If GW truly believed that they would have sued Battlescribe ages ago like they did with the 40k list builder at the start of 8th.
Which, if you remember, wasn't for the points, but the art.
darthryan wrote: I expect battlescribe to get hit with a stop using our rules or we will sue you letter in the next few weeks
Battlescribe is merely the platform. All the datafiles are community made.
Note that the US has been generally moving in legislative spaces to increasingly allow corporations to sue platforms for content hosted on, but not created by said platform. So, it may be that in a few years battlescribe will be liable. Maybe.
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ClockworkZion wrote: You could us PL and play the Open War Mission or one of the Crusade missions.
I get we live in a world where we want everything immediately but if we just want to get a handle on the new game system we can start playing it now.
Sasori wrote: GW doesn't actually need to win or even be in the right to succeed. The threat of a C&D and a lawsuit is often enough from larger companies to get what they want.
Even if they are 100% right, companies still have to fight it in court. This is (Sadly) a pretty common tactic.
The last time GW tried that it backfired pretty spectacularly. There is no way they'll want to head down that route again.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think GW is smart enough these days to know that the easier they make it for people to use the models they buy from them at a huge markup, the better. Going after BS doesn't help them sell models, and that's their core business.
Honestly, they'd probably make more money if they just released the rules - 100% of them - online for free, with the books just for people who want a hard copy. One of the biggest barriers to getting people involved in the game is "ok, you're interested in 40k? Pony up $100 for the rules before you can even play any games."
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Gadzilla666 wrote: Is it possible that the reason for the delay is that they are updating the existing codexes? Not just points but making plasma explode on natural 1s etcetera?
No. If that was the case, they would say so, to smooth things over. There is zero reason for them to abandon their release schedule with no explanation if there is a good explanation.
No no, you don't understand. GW has to make you pay that much. Else you might get some of the dirty underclass (And, note who gets to be the undercass) playing the game and it's no longer a luxury product. Or some gak.
AduroT wrote: Chapterhouse didn’t even die gracefully. It just... stopped delivering product, while still leaving a function web store up and taking money.
Smaller corporations aren't usually less corrupt than larger ones, no.
I am disappointed that the army builder requires the subscription. That is the part that should be free. It would be good for the game if there was easily accessible, standardised list builder so everyone would be on the same page. Paying for the access to actual rule content would be fine.
Crimson wrote: I am disappointed that the army builder requires the subscription. That is the part that should be free. It would be good for the game if there was easily accessible, standardised list builder so everyone would be on the same page. Paying for the access to actual rule content would be fine.
Remember, Warhammer is for everyone, except for poor people.
Crimson wrote: I am disappointed that the army builder requires the subscription. That is the part that should be free. It would be good for the game if there was easily accessible, standardised list builder so everyone would be on the same page. Paying for the access to actual rule content would be fine.
Remember, Warhammer is for everyone, except for poor people.
That's why poor people have their Jolly roger flag up xD
In my experience, the majority of players actually use PL.
Yes, I tend to concur. Most of the new players who come to our club use power level as their army construction tool.
Me and my friends use power level most of the time. It's just easier. I don't want to spend 30 mins totaling up my army list. Of course its exploitable, but that is simply a matter of having respect for your opponent - however I accept that is much easier when playing socially.
In my experience, the majority of players actually use PL.
Yes, I tend to concur. Most of the new players who come to our club use power level as their army construction tool.
Me and my friends use power level most of the time. It's just easier. I don't want to spend 30 mins totaling up my army list. Of course its exploitable, but that is simply a matter of having respect for your opponent - however I accept that is much easier when playing socially.
I mean, that path just seems like it leads to list tailoring to me. I make a list and play it regardless of opponent, and if the list fails to perform, I change the list. I'll even have a couple so I can have a low power list (I have gotten this one wrong a few time) to play with a new person.
And I full on paper math that gak.
I dunno, I find power level pretty much worthless for a good time game, especially now. It pretty much pigeonholes me into taking utter filth or just not bothering playing because so much of the power level is so skewed. Like, I love sternguard when I played marines. I even tried making that ultramarine vigilus detachment work (it did not, I lost every game). Sternguard are absolutely rumbled by power levels, and they aren't that great in points.
I'd tell you to switch to points, it's a better system for gauging army power levels. I mean power level you may as well use AoS's old wound matching system or something.
Lord of Deeds wrote:So let me know if I have this straight;
1) Right now I buy a printed codex for $40 USD ($30 for SM supplements) 2) Right now if I want a digital version, its $34.99 for ePub or $37.99 enhanced
So to have both print and digital it’s $75 – $78 for a typical codex, of which there are 23? (Excluding the 6 SM supplements).
Spoiler:
If I want an online/automated list builder, its BattleScribe for $1.49 / yr. per* *I know it can be used for free, but they do ask for support, which I myself currently do pay for the supporter pass for both PC and iOS.
With the Warhammer 40K app
1) Digital Version of codex comes with printed version. Price not known, but I think it is safe to assume that the price of the 9th edition codices will be higher than $40, but lower than the combined $75-$78 above. – Conclusion is this will be better value than currently IF you were buying both print and digital versions. However, it is an inferior value if you were buying only one or the other.
For subscriber version since USD price not mentioned, let’s just guess $6 / month since GW always inflates the current exchange rate.
2) This is harder to compare apples to apples as it gives more than just a list builder. It provides digital versions of all 8th ed. codices, a ~$950 USD value if purchased today which will likely take more than 30 months before all are updated again assuming one codex a month vs. $180 total for the app during that same time frame – Conclusion is this is outstanding value assuming you don’t already have say more than 27 8th edition codices or supplements already. Value declines significantly if you had no interest in having say more than 5 8th edition codices or already own all the 8th edition codices you want in whatever is your preferred format.
3) If only interested in the list building feature, no contest in a straight price to price comparison with BattleScribe. But we know that BattleScribe is not perfect and caveat emptor, and is dependent on the un-paid and very committed community members who try their best to keep the data files updated. There is also typically a lag between codex release and BattleScribe being updated. One good thing about Battescribe has always been the relative ease with which lists could be shared or published across multiple media. The value that I assume the GW app will offer is, a) It’s official (don't discount this aspect), b) It will be updated the same day a codex is released, c) It will have less errors (FAQ/Errata history of GW notwithstanding), d) will hopefully be more user and mobile firendly and aligned visually with the force org system and e) have support for sharing/publishing your list. – Conclusion from a price only standpoint, this is an inferior value to what is currently available and not a good enough reason alone to subscribe to the app, however final assessment of value is highly dependent on the actual finished GW product
Obviously you don’t subscribe based on what if’s and vague promises of future improvements, but my guess of features on the short list to be added to app;
1) Match scorer 2) Dice app 3) Open War cards / Mission generator 4) Crusade journal 5) Campaign management 6) Support for other 40K games, e.g. Kill Team, Adeptus Titanicus, Aeronautica Imperialis, and may be even Necromunda?
I am looking forward to the app, and just based on the value of the digital versions of 8th edition codices will likely subscribe from day 1 and probably through whatever point that I am no longer referring to 8th edition codices are an ongoing basis.
The cost of the app is not the initial price. It's the long term lock in.
Let's say 9th edition goes 4 years and the app costs $6 a month. Paying $72 a year x 4 years = $288.
Sounds reasonable, there's some value if you get access to every Codex. Of course, that only lasts as long as GW chooses to keep the price at that level. Once you move off books, they can do whatever they want. After a few years, I expect the cost would be much higher than the cost of physical books.
Looks like a Trojan Horse for consumers.
Lord of Deeds wrote:GW is paying people to make their version and need revenue to offset that expense. Not to say that comparisons to BattleScribe are not worthwhile, but BattleScribe is not paying anyone and the 40k data files would not be free* if it wasn't for the philanthropy and dedication of a relatively few committed 40k enthusiasts.
Finally I don’t think GW is going to go after BattleScribe. There is already the precedent with Lone Wolf Development, so GW knows where they stand legally.
In terms of copyright law, anyone is free to take facts out of a book and reprint them elsewhere. That's part of why BS can exist, also it's a generic army list builder that works with multiple systems.
Extracting data out of an app can violate the DMCA. GW could start issuing take down notices to Github to pull the files, and Github would have to comply or face massive fines. Even if it's actually legal, do you think Github is going to stand up for a project that consists of a few XML files? Probably not.
I own Codexes but get everything I need out of Battlescribe. The app seems to be a way to monetize something I'm getting for free, and to make something I like illegal. Would not use it.
Aaranis wrote:Jesus Christ we just want the point costs for armies, let us play 9th Edition already, we have the core rules, the leaked missions, JUST LET US PLAAAY. I don't want to play broken 8th anymore. I'm so sick of this teasing and drawing everything at length for MONTHS. Why does it take two weeks to take preorders while it's usually one week ? Seriously half the summer will be gone and we're still with drip-fed informations we already know.
Just release a PDF already Jesus. Nobody's buying stuff except Marine and Necrons players who ordered Indomitus, the rest of us are too scared to buy boxes that will be possibly useless in two weeks. What's the point of waiting dragging everything for so long ?
Giving me time to process the changes is valuable. I'm not playing right now due to lockdowns and stores going out of business, but I hope to be ready when 9th edition is actually released.
My armies are CSM, DG, TS, Chaos Knights, Grey Knights, DW, and Guard. CSM are my favorite, feels like the new rules put them at a severe disadvantage. The new Charge rules, Morale rules and Detachment mechanics leave me feeling a little lost on what to do with my 8th edition lists.
One of my lists (Daemon Primarchs) is invalidated, there's no way to actually use it anymore.
My Black Legion gunline is mostly intact, but there's reasons it probably won't work as well in 9th. It depends on beatsticks crushing anything that gets close, the new rules around multicharge mean it's going to be a lot harder to tie up opponents while the gunline shoots. While I run Abaddon, I have to worry about Morale and unit coherency now. The new Detachment rules mean I will have to consider a Brigade or start with fewer CP.
My Death Guard list needs to be overhauled. It's mostly infantry, now it needs more MSU, armor and heavy weapons. I'm not sure how I will organize the detachments, still haven't read the PA book.
My Chaos Knights seem to have benefited from the new rules, they're going to be a little harder to charge. But I won't really know until I get some games in, my most frequent opponents are NuMarines, Orks and Dark Eldar. I don't have a good sense what's going on with those armies.
As for the TS and Imperial lists, I haven't started thinking about what the new edition means for them. All I really know is soup is off the menu, or will be served sparingly.
In my experience, the majority of players actually use PL.
Yes, I tend to concur. Most of the new players who come to our club use power level as their army construction tool.
Me and my friends use power level most of the time. It's just easier. I don't want to spend 30 mins totaling up my army list. Of course its exploitable, but that is simply a matter of having respect for your opponent - however I accept that is much easier when playing socially.
The last time I even heard of a powerlevel game being played in our area was in the index era. We honestly forget PL is even a thing sometimes
The last time I even heard of a powerlevel game being played in our area was in the index era. We honestly forget PL is even a thing sometimes
Which again, isn't that surprising given you (by your flag at least) appear to be from the US.
It's not exactly unknown that large parts of the states have been on their own trajectory for a good chunk of 8th Edition, not using Maelstrom, not using Chapter Approved missions, not using RAW terrain rules, not using PL, not using Open War decks, etc., etc.., etc..,
Part of the reason GW brought in so many US community "names" was surely in no small part of trying to closer align the US customers again with the "rest" of the 40K community.
The last time I even heard of a powerlevel game being played in our area was in the index era. We honestly forget PL is even a thing sometimes
Which again, isn't that surprising given you (by your flag at least) appear to be from the US.
It's not exactly unknown that large parts of the states have been on their own trajectory for a good chunk of 8th Edition, not using Maelstrom, not using Chapter Approved missions, not using RAW terrain rules, not using PL, not using Open War decks, etc., etc.., etc..,
Part of the reason GW brought in so many US community "names" was surely in no small part of trying to closer align the US customers again with the "rest" of the 40K community.
They would get a lot further in that initiative if they were to sanction tournaments and offer prize support. If they had GW-sanctioned tournaments in the states where they used everything you just mentioned, it would give the US playerbase a taste of the game using those mechanics and more tournaments would start to follow suit.
The last time I even heard of a powerlevel game being played in our area was in the index era. We honestly forget PL is even a thing sometimes
Which again, isn't that surprising given you (by your flag at least) appear to be from the US.
It's not exactly unknown that large parts of the states have been on their own trajectory for a good chunk of 8th Edition, not using Maelstrom, not using Chapter Approved missions, not using RAW terrain rules, not using PL, not using Open War decks, etc., etc.., etc..,
Part of the reason GW brought in so many US community "names" was surely in no small part of trying to closer align the US customers again with the "rest" of the 40K community.
They would get a lot further in that initiative if they were to sanction tournaments and offer prize support. If they had GW-sanctioned tournaments in the states where they used everything you just mentioned, it would give the US playerbase a taste of the game using those mechanics and more tournaments would start to follow suit.
Given the threads and polls here on dakka, I'm afraid to say you're flat wrong on this one. It was discussed, even suggested by ITC to use CA missions and the US scene dumped all over it because it was too random and didn't allow them to build a list to the missions/control how they scored.
Slipspace wrote: Huge swing and a miss for me. What's really frustrating is a truly forward-looking company would realise an app is a fantastic opportunity for customer research since GW could see all the data on army building for everyone that uses it. If they'd charged £2 a month I might have considered it but this is just a terrible deal all round. Looks like they're getting pretty solidly criticised for it on social media and other forums too, as they should.
yeah i dont get that... see which units are used and which arent, should be pretty valuable information for a company that sells minis and is trying to balance rules... It would also swing away from the tournament driven balancing. See what units people actually field.. they could prompt surveys in the app too like "why are/arent you using unit x" or god forsake a feedback option... i really don't get how such an oppurtunity gets missed... other companies would rip their leg off to get to such important data
and yes 5€ per month is pretty steep in todays app market... i really hope those quicklinks to rules and points also work if you didnt buy the codecies you're referencing... if not i really dont see any reason to get the app
They would get a lot further in that initiative if they were to sanction tournaments and offer prize support. If they had GW-sanctioned tournaments in the states where they used everything you just mentioned, it would give the US playerbase a taste of the game using those mechanics and more tournaments would start to follow suit.
Given the threads and polls here on dakka, I'm afraid to say you're flat wrong on this one. It was discussed, even suggested by ITC to use CA missions and the US scene dumped all over it because it was too random and didn't allow them to build a list to the missions/control how they scored.
Erm, that's not what I said. I didn't say ask people if they wanted to do it. I said do it. People will attend a GW event, regardless of ruleset. At said GW event, employ all of the aforementioned rules that ITC, etc. don't use. Give people a different perspective than ITC rules. Some will walk away enjoying it more.
You're right, you can't talk people into doing something different. You have to show them.
Which, if you remember, wasn't for the points, but the art.
Because art is a much easier legal case. It would have been an easy win for GW if it had gone to court.
But with BS, are they going to claim they copyrighted numbers? Even the names aren't copyrighted but trademarked, which has different protections that wouldn't truly apply here.
EDIT: And it is a much harder case because BS has never published 40k data. It isn't like a forum in which what we post is published, it isn't truly a platform but an application, pure software. If the user wants to see 40k data on it that is on the users that created and loaded that data on BS. It would be like trying to sue a media player app because you can play pirated movies on it.
They would get a lot further in that initiative if they were to sanction tournaments and offer prize support. If they had GW-sanctioned tournaments in the states where they used everything you just mentioned, it would give the US playerbase a taste of the game using those mechanics and more tournaments would start to follow suit.
Given the threads and polls here on dakka, I'm afraid to say you're flat wrong on this one. It was discussed, even suggested by ITC to use CA missions and the US scene dumped all over it because it was too random and didn't allow them to build a list to the missions/control how they scored.
Erm, that's not what I said. I didn't say ask people if they wanted to do it. I said do it. People will attend a GW event, regardless of ruleset. At said GW event, employ all of the aforementioned rules that ITC, etc. don't use. Give people a different perspective than ITC rules. Some will walk away enjoying it more.
You're right, you can't talk people into doing something different. You have to show them.
From what people were sating on here, the impression is that they honestly wouldn't go to it.
Too much hassle to organize an event across the ocean.
Just invite a couple of big names from US to your playtesting group, make it look like the new missions cater to the ITC crowd and make a few accouncements in streaming. Done.
Given the threads and polls here on dakka, I'm afraid to say you're flat wrong on this one. It was discussed, even suggested by ITC to use CA missions and the US scene dumped all over it because it was too random and didn't allow them to build a list to the missions/control how they scored.
CA19 was the first real consideration. Then....pandemic.
And let's be honest. You guys weren't doing straight maelstrom that whole time.
They would get a lot further in that initiative if they were to sanction tournaments and offer prize support. If they had GW-sanctioned tournaments in the states where they used everything you just mentioned, it would give the US playerbase a taste of the game using those mechanics and more tournaments would start to follow suit.
Given the threads and polls here on dakka, I'm afraid to say you're flat wrong on this one. It was discussed, even suggested by ITC to use CA missions and the US scene dumped all over it because it was too random and didn't allow them to build a list to the missions/control how they scored.
Erm, that's not what I said. I didn't say ask people if they wanted to do it. I said do it. People will attend a GW event, regardless of ruleset. At said GW event, employ all of the aforementioned rules that ITC, etc. don't use. Give people a different perspective than ITC rules. Some will walk away enjoying it more.
You're right, you can't talk people into doing something different. You have to show them.
From what people were sating on here, the impression is that they honestly wouldn't go to it.
There are GW sanctioned GTs in the US, not many but they're there. The general consensus is that they don't matter all that much compared to adepticon, nova, and LVO. Also, GW does do prize support for a lot of the independent events.
Sidebar for pumaface, this isn't a repro health class teaching teenagers what a condom is, the US playerbase is fully aware of those mechanics and games, there are local and regional metas all over the country that don't use ITC rules at all. Michigan, for example, is almost entirely adepticon inspired rules until october when the Michigan GT happens. Having seen all of the available permutations of rulesets and missionpacks, North America has decided ITC is the most popular. It's not a question of people not knowing any other way to play, or even being forced to use ITC (as a bunch of whiners on this board would like you to believe) it's a simply the majority of people within attendence range of your event liking ITC.
People don't use powerlevel in the US because it sucks. It's broken down over time so that it's largely useless even for casual games. During Indexes and the first wave of codexes you could have perfectly fine games with PL, but too much stuff has changed since that era for any game where players are actually interested in winning to be worth playing.
Maelstrom is fine and sees actually a lot of use in local events and pick up games for creating a fast and unpredictable gaming environment. It's terrible for larger events because better players can lose hardcore to just drawing "grab the objective your opponent deployed triple plagueburst crawlers and 200 cultists on" over and over again. No one uses open war decks because every other game is over in less time than it takes to deploy. I watched two guys play 5 or 6 full open war games in like 45 minutes because they kept pulling win cons that were super easy for one guy to get.
Not for nothing, but there weren't actually RAW terrain rules in 8th. Infantry just got +1 save from the table sometimes. Honestly, the game is fine without the ITC ruins rule...but there's a reason every tournament in America was using ruins to block LoS and it's not because they all just really love Reece. Melee that didn't deepstrike was DoA without it, especially in the Ironhands era.
It's simple supply and demand. If the new GW missions and tournament packs, crusade rules, terrain rules, etc, are good enough, people will adopt them. If not, they'll stick to ITC(or whatever local meta your area uses). If PL becomes not utter gak again, people will use PL for their friendly games. As of now, even that isn't really possible.
Just called my local store an they are already out for the indomitus boxset... and it was supposed to start tomorrow ! This is going to be a nightmare like the Sister boxset.
Given the threads and polls here on dakka, I'm afraid to say you're flat wrong on this one. It was discussed, even suggested by ITC to use CA missions and the US scene dumped all over it because it was too random and didn't allow them to build a list to the missions/control how they scored.
CA19 was the first real consideration. Then....pandemic.
And let's be honest. You guys weren't doing straight maelstrom that whole time.
We used the CA 19 maelstrom missions in a few local events (Ewar were gak, I'm sorry Ewar has ALWAYS been gak until the new book missions which I like quite a bit) and they were fun. Not sure how they translated to larger events because...yunno...pandemic, but they were great for what we did.
North America will go with whatever they like the best. That's just what NA does.
I actually love the collectors one, but the price is ludicrous.
Cant believe that this collector rule book which only has a fancier cover then the rulebook in the indomitus box set is actually $10 US more then the box set! The last few collector rule books came with art books, coins, maps posters etc at least.
WhiteDog wrote: Just called my local store an they are already out for the indomitus boxset... and it was supposed to start tomorrow ! This is going to be a nightmare like the Sister boxset.
Same here. Any one who has ALREADY pre-ordered (pre-order pre-ordered) has their copy, but for tomorrow -- ya know, the ACTUAL preorder -- they're all out. They're not accepting any new orders.
They would get a lot further in that initiative if they were to sanction tournaments and offer prize support. If they had GW-sanctioned tournaments in the states where they used everything you just mentioned, it would give the US playerbase a taste of the game using those mechanics and more tournaments would start to follow suit.
Given the threads and polls here on dakka, I'm afraid to say you're flat wrong on this one. It was discussed, even suggested by ITC to use CA missions and the US scene dumped all over it because it was too random and didn't allow them to build a list to the missions/control how they scored.
Erm, that's not what I said. I didn't say ask people if they wanted to do it. I said do it. People will attend a GW event, regardless of ruleset. At said GW event, employ all of the aforementioned rules that ITC, etc. don't use. Give people a different perspective than ITC rules. Some will walk away enjoying it more.
You're right, you can't talk people into doing something different. You have to show them.
From what people were sating on here, the impression is that they honestly wouldn't go to it.
There are GW sanctioned GTs in the US, not many but they're there. The general consensus is that they don't matter all that much compared to adepticon, nova, and LVO. Also, GW does do prize support for a lot of the independent events.
Sidebar for pumaface, this isn't a repro health class teaching teenagers what a condom is, the US playerbase is fully aware of those mechanics and games, there are local and regional metas all over the country that don't use ITC rules at all. Michigan, for example, is almost entirely adepticon inspired rules until october when the Michigan GT happens. Having seen all of the available permutations of rulesets and missionpacks, North America has decided ITC is the most popular. It's not a question of people not knowing any other way to play, or even being forced to use ITC (as a bunch of whiners on this board would like you to believe) it's a simply the majority of people within attendence range of your event liking ITC.
People don't use powerlevel in the US because it sucks. It's broken down over time so that it's largely useless even for casual games. During Indexes and the first wave of codexes you could have perfectly fine games with PL, but too much stuff has changed since that era for any game where players are actually interested in winning to be worth playing.
Maelstrom is fine and sees actually a lot of use in local events and pick up games for creating a fast and unpredictable gaming environment. It's terrible for larger events because better players can lose hardcore to just drawing "grab the objective your opponent deployed triple plagueburst crawlers and 200 cultists on" over and over again. No one uses open war decks because every other game is over in less time than it takes to deploy. I watched two guys play 5 or 6 full open war games in like 45 minutes because they kept pulling win cons that were super easy for one guy to get.
Not for nothing, but there weren't actually RAW terrain rules in 8th. Infantry just got +1 save from the table sometimes. Honestly, the game is fine without the ITC ruins rule...but there's a reason every tournament in America was using ruins to block LoS and it's not because they all just really love Reece. Melee that didn't deepstrike was DoA without it, especially in the Ironhands era.
It's simple supply and demand. If the new GW missions and tournament packs, crusade rules, terrain rules, etc, are good enough, people will adopt them. If not, they'll stick to ITC(or whatever local meta your area uses). If PL becomes not utter gak again, people will use PL for their friendly games. As of now, even that isn't really possible.
I get that, but you also have to realize that because ITC has (had?) such a foothold, that local events were often difficult to break out of that format, even to try new things. If you wanted to suggest that you have Maelstrom tournament, that the local tournament organizers might dismiss the suggestion on the grounds that attendance might be low because they're not using ITC missions. So, instead, the new gets shelved and doesn't get the revisit it might deserve. Just because something is accepted by the majority doesn't mean it is infallible (or even the best). Other formats should have their day as well and, if they don't work well, should be retired. I guess ymmv, but in my experience, I saw very few formats outside of ITC.
Which, if you remember, wasn't for the points, but the art.
Because art is a much easier legal case. It would have been an easy win for GW if it had gone to court.
But with BS, are they going to claim they copyrighted numbers? Even the names aren't copyrighted but trademarked, which has different protections that wouldn't truly apply here.
EDIT: And it is a much harder case because BS has never published 40k data. It isn't like a forum in which what we post is published, it isn't truly a platform but an application, pure software. If the user wants to see 40k data on it that is on the users that created and loaded that data on BS. It would be like trying to sue a media player app because you can play pirated movies on it.
In a battle between big business and not, legality often does not matter, big business will win by dint of being able to fund legal proceedings and harass its target of ire non stop with little repercussions.
In a battle between big business and not, legality often does not matter, big business will win by dint of being able to fund legal proceedings and harass its target of ire non stop with little repercussions.
And risking losing and setting an unfavorable precedent?
People have been "predicting" GW going after BS since forever, and it has jet to materialize.
I actually love the collectors one, but the price is ludicrous.
Cant believe that this collector rule book which only has a fancier cover then the rulebook in the indomitus box set is actually $10 US more then the box set! The last few collector rule books came with art books, coins, maps posters etc at least.
Wait what now? How much does this book cost? I thought it was just $65?
I actually love the collectors one, but the price is ludicrous.
Cant believe that this collector rule book which only has a fancier cover then the rulebook in the indomitus box set is actually $10 US more then the box set! The last few collector rule books came with art books, coins, maps posters etc at least.
Wait what now? How much does this book cost? I thought it was just $65?
I actually love the collectors one, but the price is ludicrous.
Cant believe that this collector rule book which only has a fancier cover then the rulebook in the indomitus box set is actually $10 US more then the box set! The last few collector rule books came with art books, coins, maps posters etc at least.
Wait what now? How much does this book cost? I thought it was just $65?
65 would be reqular edition. This is special edition with new cover and limited to 2000 copies. More of "i have tons of spare cash" symbol.
I think with GW's "Harrods of London" obsession with expensive, fluff-fat hardbacks, we are going to stick with just the codices and download rules, for open play.
I'd be very impressed if they released a slim paperback edition of the 9th edition rules tomorrow.
So the Necrons get a 12" Assault d3 S4 AP-3 D3 weapon...
And the Marines get either 2d6 S6 shots, or 2 S10 AP-2 Dd6 shots.
As well as firing a Heavy Bolter at literally everything in range.
Balanced!
Abject lunacy right there.
HAHAHA well orks get a mekshop. You can shoot two times with a unit in the next round if you forgo shooting in this round!
WHAT A TRADE! ...and with the smaller board sizes you can use it on a kitchen table! WHAAAGH!
If only it was that good! You get max shots with random shot weapons instead. Which is less than shoot twice. Oh and with blast you could get max twice...didn"t even think of it but 9th actually nerfs knight and ork terrain. Hard to do seeing opponent would happily give terrain for free if you "upgrade) your big walker with it.
So the Necrons get a 12" Assault d3 S4 AP-3 D3 weapon...
And the Marines get either 2d6 S6 shots, or 2 S10 AP-2 Dd6 shots.
As well as firing a Heavy Bolter at literally everything in range.
Balanced!
Abject lunacy right there.
While we don't have the stats or points cost yet, as it is, this is a pretty insane difference. That bunker better cost at least 3x what the convergence does.
Tyran wrote: Doesn't the Deathstorm drop pod basically has the same rule?
Yes, but this has both more weapons and more weapon choices than the Deathstorm's 2 types of shots and gives you an extra CP because it's a Fortification. I also doubt this bunker will only be T6 like the Deathstorm.
I guess the Deathstorm taking up a FA slot is worth something?
Tyran wrote: Doesn't the Deathstorm drop pod basically has the same rule?
Yes, but this has both more weapons and more weapon choices than the Deathstorm's 2 types of shots and gives you an extra CP because it's a Fortification. I also doubt this bunker will only be T6 like the Deathstorm.
I guess the Deathstorm taking up a FA slot is worth something?
It doesn't give extra CP, it refunds the CP it costs if all fortifications match your Warlord.
For about half a dead Marine a turn, per fortification. That's not that good.
And yes, points could solve it (nothing is INHERENTLY OP about either of these things) but given what GW's been doing with Marine stuff lately, I have a feeling it might be undercosted.
The Necrons get 3d3 shots, since there are three of them shooting. Also it’s supposed to have some way to teleport your guys around, as well as being able to itself be moved via a character.
AduroT wrote: The Necrons get 3d3 shots, since there are three of them shooting. Also it’s supposed to have some way to teleport your guys around, as well as being able to itself be moved via a character.
The math was just done, it's about 1 1/2 dead marines per turn from all three.
The structure itself is what moves, it doesn't move your units around, and it requires a cryptek action to do so.
AduroT wrote: The Necrons get 3d3 shots, since there are three of them shooting. Also it’s supposed to have some way to teleport your guys around, as well as being able to itself be moved via a character.
Is it flat 3?
Or is it 1-3?
Re-reading the article, it does look like just 3.
But still, if all three are in range, you kill about one and two-thirds Marines.
I really hate fortifications even conceptually and that thing gives me flashbacks to the bloody skyshield nonsense of 6e. Marines are already exasperating to play against with there "but wait, there's more" approach to rules; even if it's balanced I don't want to go through every sodding turn with my opponent figuring out everything that's in range of their death bunker, the inevitable argument over which armywide rules it benefits from, etc.
Also continuing the old trend of introducing completely needless, anti-fun randomness by having D3 shots on the Necron block. The shooting's not even good against anything, even assuming BS3+ like most Necron stuff, you're maybe killing an intercessor if you're really lucky. So, xenos get nothing of worth, marines get something with a thousand shots which is strictly better than everything else. Again. Wonderful, what a tremendous amount of fun.
Wait, it’s just the Necron fortification that can be moved, it’s not *for* teleporting other units? That’s disappointing given what I was led to believe.
Tyran wrote: Doesn't the Deathstorm drop pod basically has the same rule?
On exceptionally short range guns. The deathstorm can generally plink a cluster, this bunker is poised to shoot an entire army each turn.
I highly doubt it will have 36" range bolters.
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Sasori wrote: The structure itself is what moves, it doesn't move your units around, and it requires a cryptek action to do so.
It wouldn't be shocking that they didn't give all the rules out, it could well have more.
Maybe, but the teleporting units thing was always more of a hope. The original article talked about moving the Starstele itself, so this seems to just confirm that.
AduroT wrote: The Necrons get 3d3 shots, since there are three of them shooting. Also it’s supposed to have some way to teleport your guys around, as well as being able to itself be moved via a character.
The math was just done, it's about 1 1/2 dead marines per turn from all three.
1.5 marines, aggressors, eliminators, primaris - yes. Averages are also one thing. Ignoring a model that CAN wipe your whole unit of Aggressors or Eliminators is another.
Daedalus81 wrote: 1.5 marines, aggressors, eliminators, primaris - yes. Averages are also one thing. Ignoring a model that CAN wipe your whole unit of Aggressors or Eliminators is another.
If it has a long enough range that's a lot of dead Guardsmen. Now that I think about it, how does this rule interact with Look out Sir? Could it murder officers and stuff?
If you’ve got a Convergence of Dominion nearby, your Necrons needn’t worry much about Combat Attrition, as they’ll be adding 2 to their Leadership characteristic within 6″ of any Starsteles – that’s Ld 12 on average if you’re keeping count! – while your enemies will face the wrath of their transdimensional abductors.
AduroT wrote: The Necrons get 3d3 shots, since there are three of them shooting. Also it’s supposed to have some way to teleport your guys around, as well as being able to itself be moved via a character.
The math was just done, it's about 1 1/2 dead marines per turn from all three.
1.5 marines, aggressors, eliminators, primaris - yes. Averages are also one thing. Ignoring a model that CAN wipe your whole unit of Aggressors or Eliminators is another.
Aggressors only take...
2 shots
4/3 hits
4/9 wounds
10/27 unsaved
So you'd need all three to kill ONE Aggressor (or Eradicator) on average.
Sure, one could POTENTIALLY wipe three Gravis units. (About a fifth of a percent chance of that happening, though.) Just like a single Ork Boy with a Shoota can technically one-shot a Librarian with his gun.
AduroT wrote: The Necrons get 3d3 shots, since there are three of them shooting. Also it’s supposed to have some way to teleport your guys around, as well as being able to itself be moved via a character.
Nope. The stele themselves get teleported. They don't teleport units, they 'bolster' them (+2 leadership)
They might do other things as well (its hard to say for certain with a piecemeal write-up) but the original article refers to the Stele being teleported, and this backs that up.
AduroT wrote: The Necrons get 3d3 shots, since there are three of them shooting. Also it’s supposed to have some way to teleport your guys around, as well as being able to itself be moved via a character.
The math was just done, it's about 1 1/2 dead marines per turn from all three.
1.5 marines, aggressors, eliminators, primaris - yes. Averages are also one thing. Ignoring a model that CAN wipe your whole unit of Aggressors or Eliminators is another.
Aggressors only take...
2 shots
4/3 hits
4/9 wounds
10/27 unsaved
So you'd need all three to kill ONE Aggressor (or Eradicator) on average.
Sure, one could POTENTIALLY wipe three Gravis units. (About a fifth of a percent chance of that happening, though.) Just like a single Ork Boy with a Shoota can technically one-shot a Librarian with his gun.
Don't make a strawman. The odds of the latter is far less certain than the odds of the former. A couple dice rolling 3+ and then 5+ and then anything but a 6 is not out of the ordinary. Math hammer is great for general assessment and terrible for squaring with small sets when you get to the table.
Tyran wrote: Doesn't the Deathstorm drop pod basically has the same rule?
Yes, but this has both more weapons and more weapon choices than the Deathstorm's 2 types of shots and gives you an extra CP because it's a Fortification. I also doubt this bunker will only be T6 like the Deathstorm.
I guess the Deathstorm taking up a FA slot is worth something?
On a unit that's already shown to have superpowered (literally their term) missiles at full range, you expect the heavy bolter array (again, their term) not to be a souped up pair of twin linked heavy bolters? That's optimism in a Marine unit not being stupidly statted in an edition where stupidly statted Marine units are the norm, not the exception.
Eyjio wrote: I really hate fortifications even conceptually and that thing gives me flashbacks to the bloody skyshield nonsense of 6e. Marines are already exasperating to play against with there "but wait, there's more" approach to rules; even if it's balanced I don't want to go through every sodding turn with my opponent figuring out everything that's in range of their death bunker, the inevitable argument over which armywide rules it benefits from, etc.
Also continuing the old trend of introducing completely needless, anti-fun randomness by having D3 shots on the Necron block. The shooting's not even good against anything, even assuming BS3+ like most Necron stuff, you're maybe killing an intercessor if you're really lucky. So, xenos get nothing of worth, marines get something with a thousand shots which is strictly better than everything else. Again. Wonderful, what a tremendous amount of fun.
Newbie here, what's the problem with fortifications conceptually
On a unit that's already shown to have superpowered (literally their term) missiles at full range, you expect the heavy bolter array (again, their term) not to be a souped up pair of twin linked heavy bolters? That's optimism in a Marine unit not being stupidly statted in an edition where stupidly statted Marine units are the norm, not the exception.
I'll make a bet with you. It's 3 shots, 36", shoot everything in range. Then it ups to 6 in Overwatch.
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AduroT wrote: Since were all about math, how many dead marines do we get from the frag and krak missiles?
Against Aggressors Superkraks get 0.7 wounding hits with D6 damage where the Necrons get 1.1 with flat 3. Assuming both are BS3.
I'll make a bet with you. It's 3 shots, 36", shoot everything in range. Then it ups to 6 in Overwatch.
Ill make another bet with you: I don't care.
The capacity to shoot at an entire enemy army every turn, especially with the changes to leadership and objectives is an abjectly broken thing. Particularly when it inevitably benefits from auras and stratagems.
Mixzremixzd wrote: So how many points are we looking at for the Primaris tactical bunker nuke to not be obnoxiously overpowered?
There are way too many unknown variables to even guess. How many wounds does it have? Is it bs 3+, or 4+ to represent machine spirits firing? Does it have some special deployment or targeting rules? Etc...
Mixzremixzd wrote: So how many points are we looking at for the Primaris tactical bunker nuke to not be obnoxiously overpowered?
Land Raider base for 'I can shoots everything' rule, plus a whirlwind for stealing the launcher.
Keep in mind this is something that's deployed from orbit, so you can probably just plop it down in a central location where it can shoot everything and your opponent can't blow it off the board in prior turns.
Virules wrote: If ever the community needed a hero for points leaks, that time is now. In our darkest hour, who will rise to offer hope for a light in the darkness?
Exactly this!! Where are the points leaks?? Where is the hero willing to do the right thing and share?
The capacity to shoot at an entire enemy army every turn, especially with the changes to leadership and objectives is an abjectly broken thing. Particularly when it inevitably benefits from auras and stratagems.
With what range? At what points? Is 3 HB shots really putting everything over the edge? Are you really keeping a captain back for a heavy bolter? Which stratagems? How does it deploy?
The capacity to shoot at an entire enemy army every turn, especially with the changes to leadership and objectives is an abjectly broken thing. Particularly when it inevitably benefits from auras and stratagems.
With what range? At what points? Is 3 HB shots really putting everything over the edge? Are you really keeping a captain back for a heavy bolter? Which stratagems?
This was an FAQ. RAW in the Necron codex it was 1 array that had rapid fire 5 - not 2 weapons.
I think the thing that irks me the most is comparing the Necron fortification with the Primaris bunker, at least with what was revealed so far, the Convergence requires so much "finesse" and bending over backwards to make it even remotely useful. Short range weapons, +2 ld for an army with ld 10, only 1 Starstele teleports but you're sacrificing your Cryptek doing anything for a turn as it is an ACTION, can't cap objectives cause its a building...
Whereas the bunker SEEMINGLY looks like a haha down comes by square plastic in the middle of a smaller table to shoot your entire army with heavy bolters...every turn. No finesse, no tactics just Primaris being more straightforward and better than everyone else.
With what range? At what points? Is 3 HB shots really putting everything over the edge? Are you really keeping a captain back for a heavy bolter? Which stratagems? How does it deploy?
If you cant seem to grasp why a weapon with a 36 inch range on a deep strikeable platform that can fire at everything within range is a bad fething idea, then that's your problem. But we both knew that going into this lovely little chat.
The more I learn about the new "indomitus marines" (especially their special rules and point costs) and their subsequent releases the more I am tempted to boycott any games including these units.
Manous wrote: The more I learn about the new "indomitus marines" (especially their special rules and point costs) and their subsequent releases the more I am tempted to boycott any games including these units.
Oh i'm already avoid games with marines mode. They are just tom broken. That or keep super anti marine list with me if i face marines
The one downside I can see to the bunker is that it seems to have a pretty large footprint. It'll be pretty easy to screen it from deepstriking in the middle of the table if you try at all.
Tyran wrote: The bunker is an extremely binary unit.
Against a infantry MSU army it is likely going to be amazing, against a Knight Army it is useless.
It still has 2 S10 d6 damage missile attacks, that's hardly useless vs knights. This is just a random rulebreaking bonus it gets for no reason.
It isn't really rulebreaking as the the Deathstorm Drop Pod has the same rule. This bunker is just basically a bigger, better and likely more expensive Deathstorm Drop Pod.
With what range? At what points? Is 3 HB shots really putting everything over the edge? Are you really keeping a captain back for a heavy bolter? Which stratagems? How does it deploy?
If you cant seem to grasp why a weapon with a 36 inch range on a deep strikeable platform that can fire at everything within range is a bad fething idea, then that's your problem. But we both knew that going into this lovely little chat.
Oh so line of sight went away? I guess it was hard for a heavy bolter to reach across the table before.
I'm sorry that every single time a space marine rule is shown people rush to get their reaction out that they don't stop and reflect on if it can actually be as broken as they so desperately seem to want to assume.
I don't think the sky is falling *yet* in because you could (okay ignore the supposed leaks on Space Marine points and basically the last 12 months for Space Marines) easily make it suitably expensive that it sucks. Call it say 250ish points.
But its an obnoxious rule, on an obnoxious model, and the general hatred of everything Space Marine increases that little bit further by its existence.
Rakdarian wrote: Newbie here, what's the problem with fortifications conceptually
Only just saw this. I mean, some people love them, it's my personal preference. The issue I face with them is that very few people want a static blob that doesn't do anything dynamic during a game, which means the only time you ever really see them is when there's a really gamey exploit. For example, there was a good long time where Necron players took aegis defence lines because they allowed you to completely block line of sight to scarabs and then use spyders to create huge armies of them, and lots of people took a skyshield to give parking lots a 4++ for cheap. It wasn't game breaking, it simply looked stupid and made games very dull. Having a static bunker which likely scores for SM encourages making a gun line, and I dislike that style of game, especially when the SM are already hard to charge due to their other myriad of absurd rules. As I say, even if it's fairly costed, it's not something I enjoy playing.
Oh so line of sight went away? I guess it was hard for a heavy bolter to reach across the table before.
Thank you for again willfully ignoring the fact that its a drop bunker that will innately deep strike to precisely where it needs to. Or for the fact that as a vehicle keyworded unit (yes, Imperium fortifications get that) it's going to be eligible for all kinds of bs. Or that it will inherit additional potency because its a Marine unit, and will interact with multiple force multipliers just for showing up.
I'm sorry that every single time a space marine rule is shown people rush to get their reaction out that they don't stop and reflect on if it can actually be as broken as they so desperately seem to want to assume.
Im sorry that you're genuinely incapable of understanding just how conceptually wrong this unit is. But its far from the first time you hopped on the "everything is fine" train for an abjectly idiotic power spike.
Also, do we know the rules for this fortification yet? You might have to give up the move/shoot of a single unit nearby, it may have lower-than-average BS or something to mitigate all the free shots it is throwing out.
The leak on Space Marines points are inconsistent with the Primaris Liutenant point cost in the App article, so a lot of salt.
As for the bunker, we also don't have the stats for its Hammerfall heavy bolter array and the rule implies it has less shots than 6 (so likely only 3 like a normal heavy bolter).
My problem with the Necron fortification it that it is boring. 40K team should learn from AoS theam how to make impactfull and usefull scenography. And here it has points so they can actually balance it.
Tyran wrote: The leak on Space Marines points are inconsistent with the Primaris Liutenant point cost in the App article, so a lot of salt.
As for the bunker, we also don't have the stats for its Hammerfall heavy bolter array and the rule implies it has less shots than 6 (so likely only 3 like a normal heavy bolter).
Isn't that just the 8th edition points for a lutie?
Most imperial fortifications that are servitor manned (looks like all count that way these days from what i could see on BS) are bs5. So I am guessing this new one will be bs4 because it has primarus marine brain servitors.
Nicorex wrote: Most imperial fortifications that are servitor manned (looks like all count that way these days from what i could see on BS) are bs5. So I am guessing this new one will be bs4 because it has primarus marine brain servitors.
If it's BS 5 then fine, it's a super tarantula. As long as it's fairly costed, fine. But it's a bunker... which suggests dudes inside it, that could fire at Marine BS, which is utter BS for those keeping score.
Oh so line of sight went away? I guess it was hard for a heavy bolter to reach across the table before.
Thank you for again willfully ignoring the fact that its a drop bunker that will innately deep strike to precisely where it needs to. Or for the fact that as a vehicle keyworded unit (yes, Imperium fortifications get that) it's going to be eligible for all kinds of bs. Or that it will inherit additional potency because its a Marine unit, and will interact with multiple force multipliers just for showing up.
I'm sorry that every single time a space marine rule is shown people rush to get their reaction out that they don't stop and reflect on if it can actually be as broken as they so desperately seem to want to assume.
Im sorry that you're genuinely incapable of understanding just how conceptually wrong this unit is. But its far from the first time you hopped on the "everything is fine" train for an abjectly idiotic power spike.
It's a terrible concept. The last thing 40k needs is more big clunky models that break the rest of the rules of the game for the sake of...well..I don't really know what.
Oh so line of sight went away? I guess it was hard for a heavy bolter to reach across the table before.
Thank you for again willfully ignoring the fact that its a drop bunker that will innately deep strike to precisely where it needs to. Or for the fact that as a vehicle keyworded unit (yes, Imperium fortifications get that) it's going to be eligible for all kinds of bs. Or that it will inherit additional potency because its a Marine unit, and will interact with multiple force multipliers just for showing up.
I'm sorry that every single time a space marine rule is shown people rush to get their reaction out that they don't stop and reflect on if it can actually be as broken as they so desperately seem to want to assume.
Im sorry that you're genuinely incapable of understanding just how conceptually wrong this unit is. But its far from the first time you hopped on the "everything is fine" train for an abjectly idiotic power spike.
LOL, keep reaching for the stars.
I disagreed with you on the eradicators not being OP because we already had a ballpark of their cost and some comparable units they are MASSIVELY superior to. I agree that it's too early to whine about the bunker. We don't even know it's full statline, let alone it's points cost. For all we know it's 2 wounds T2 for 600pts. Also, doesn't the shoot everything it can rule already exist? Deathstorm drop pods do the exact same thing.
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yukishiro1 wrote: It's a terrible concept. The last thing 40k needs is more big clunky models that break the rest of the rules of the game for the sake of...well..I don't really know what.
It's literally just a primaris version of the deathstorm drop pod. It's basically the exact same thing as the bike chaplain or techmarine.
Nicorex wrote: Most imperial fortifications that are servitor manned (looks like all count that way these days from what i could see on BS) are bs5. So I am guessing this new one will be bs4 because it has primarus marine brain servitors.
If it's BS 5 then fine, it's a super tarantula. As long as it's fairly costed, fine. But it's a bunker... which suggests dudes inside it, that could fire at Marine BS, which is utter BS for those keeping score.
The article actually states "as their automated guns blaze away at EVERY ENEMY UNIT WITHIN RANGE", it is not a manned weapon platform.
Nicorex wrote: Most imperial fortifications that are servitor manned (looks like all count that way these days from what i could see on BS) are bs5. So I am guessing this new one will be bs4 because it has primarus marine brain servitors.
If it's BS 5 then fine, it's a super tarantula. As long as it's fairly costed, fine. But it's a bunker... which suggests dudes inside it, that could fire at Marine BS, which is utter BS for those keeping score.
The article actually states "as their automated guns blaze away at EVERY ENEMY UNIT WITHIN RANGE", it is not a manned weapon platform.
OK cool, that's less grim.
Now I can just be annoyed at how gak the Necron terrain is instead lol. On the plus, we'e already figured out that you could Deceiver the three towers up and build a wall in front out our opponents, which might be funny.
I disagreed with you on the eradicators not being OP because we already had a ballpark of their cost and some comparable units they are MASSIVELY superior to. I agree that it's too early to whine about the bunker. We don't even know it's full statline, let alone it's points cost. For all we know it's 2 wounds T2 for 600pts. Also, doesn't the shoot everything it can rule already exist? Deathstorm drop pods do the exact same thing.
Yup. I'll be right there next to you calling it stupid if they make it too good. Eradicators could wind up cheaper, too along with MM languishing - all of that would be bad for the game.
I'm just content to sit on my hands for now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Based on the screenshots there looks to be a lot more to that mission pack for rules changes.
Oh so line of sight went away? I guess it was hard for a heavy bolter to reach across the table before.
Thank you for again willfully ignoring the fact that its a drop bunker that will innately deep strike to precisely where it needs to. Or for the fact that as a vehicle keyworded unit (yes, Imperium fortifications get that) it's going to be eligible for all kinds of bs. Or that it will inherit additional potency because its a Marine unit, and will interact with multiple force multipliers just for showing up.
I'm going to again mention the footprint of this model. Unless it has rules allowing it to deploy within 9" of enemy models, it's going to be harder to place it where you want than you seem to think it is.
I'm going to again mention the footprint of this model. Unless it has rules allowing it to deploy within 9" of enemy models, it's going to be harder to place it where you want than you seem to think it is.
With 36" range guns, dropping onto a dime isnt necessary.
EnTyme wrote: I'm going to again mention the footprint of this model. Unless it has rules allowing it to deploy within 9" of enemy models, it's going to be harder to place it where you want than you seem to think it is.
I would rate the chances of special deepstrike rules as "decent". Otherwise why would you ever take the flamers?
Galas wrote: My problem with the Necron fortification it that it is boring. 40K team should learn from AoS theam how to make impactfull and usefull scenography. And here it has points so they can actually balance it.
"here's a big central pillar that feths your army with no counter play"
I really dislike a lot of AoS scenery for being just board covering nerfs for the enemy. Super annoying.
Galas wrote: My problem with the Necron fortification it that it is boring. 40K team should learn from AoS theam how to make impactfull and usefull scenography. And here it has points so they can actually balance it.
"here's a big central pillar that feths your army with no counter play"
I really dislike a lot of AoS scenery for being just board covering nerfs for the enemy. Super annoying.
I mean, theres a ton of examples of good scenery pieces like the ogre one but yes, the ORB is just stupid.
Galas wrote: My problem with the Necron fortification it that it is boring. 40K team should learn from AoS theam how to make impactfull and usefull scenography. And here it has points so they can actually balance it.
"here's a big central pillar that feths your army with no counter play"
I really dislike a lot of AoS scenery for being just board covering nerfs for the enemy. Super annoying.
Besides the Bonetithe Nexus, I'd say that most faction terrain really isn't that bad. Bonetithe is probably the most powerful faction terrain in the game though.
Galas wrote: My problem with the Necron fortification it that it is boring. 40K team should learn from AoS theam how to make impactfull and usefull scenography. And here it has points so they can actually balance it.
"here's a big central pillar that feths your army with no counter play"
I really dislike a lot of AoS scenery for being just board covering nerfs for the enemy. Super annoying.
I mean, theres a ton of examples of good scenery pieces like the ogre one but yes, the ORB is just stupid.
Yeah, there's some that are fine and fun.
I'm also salty that my faction didn't get any when they got an update (And then the elves stole the one schtick we did get)
Galas wrote: My problem with the Necron fortification it that it is boring. 40K team should learn from AoS theam how to make impactfull and usefull scenography. And here it has points so they can actually balance it.
"here's a big central pillar that feths your army with no counter play"
I really dislike a lot of AoS scenery for being just board covering nerfs for the enemy. Super annoying.
I mean, theres a ton of examples of good scenery pieces like the ogre one but yes, the ORB is just stupid.
Yeah, there's some that are fine and fun.
I'm also salty that my faction didn't get any when they got an update (And then the elves stole the one schtick we did get)
Terrain needs to be nominal cost because most of the time it’s only supplementing the free ruins already in your deployment zone.
Like imperial statuary for 25pts because it offers little to no cover and mostly pointless morale buff for imperials..
Aegis for 40pts (plus normal costs for guns)
Even a bastion shouldn’t cost more then 55pts (plus any guns)
Things like the forgeshrine needs a rules overhaul.. no one is going to have a knight sit and do nothing for a nominal buff. Make it a once per game buff that last one turn and the knight just needs to start the game or begin a turn within 1in of it. And have it cost 50pts to either heal 1d3 wounds, add 6in to movement or reload missiles. Building and fortification rules and cost are GWS biggest rules issues.
SirGrotzalot wrote: Wait I thought pre orders were 10am pst? Did this change
For the US they are. GW cuts the world into vaguely relevant time zones. In New Zealand, it's already tomorrow. This is when their preorders usually happen.
Holy Terra! I nearly fell over when I saw the price on the collector book! NZ had it for $413!
Spoiler:
I'm just laughing because it's nearly 70 dollary-dos more than the box set with the rulebook.
Look, special covers and whatnot cost extra. But not that much extra.
I'm going to again mention the footprint of this model. Unless it has rules allowing it to deploy within 9" of enemy models, it's going to be harder to place it where you want than you seem to think it is.
With 36" range guns, dropping onto a dime isnt necessary.
It shouldn't be too hard to zone this thing out to where it has no choice but to land in a corner unless . . .
Trickstick wrote:I would rate the chances of special deepstrike rules as "decent". Otherwise why would you ever take the flamers?
SirGrotzalot wrote: Wait I thought pre orders were 10am pst? Did this change
GW's pre-order times (change GMT to BST). The only time it changes is twice a year when Daylight Savings Time begins/ends as it does not line up exactly with British Summer Time. This has been GW's pre-order time for several years now...
Based on my own specialized tools it appears that lizurhgluizh is 29 points.
1.6mb picture...
Further proof that GW drops these leaks intentionally. It's 2020 and my $100 smartphone has a good enough camera that even a hasty snap while walking by would produce an image with enough pixels for you to blow it up and read the text.
Ghaz wrote: Am I the only one concerned that there doesn't seem to be a digital version of the Core Rule Book up for pre-order on the NZ page?
They may very well just get rid of digital codexs in its current form and have the digital rules tied to the app...
In order to cut out the hacked Digital rule books..
It’s not like people won’t scan the print book, but I suspect it’s just delayed and will be available later.
The battlefield box doesn’t even come with the new terrain wtf that overpriced.
Also 50mm objectives when the new rule is 40mm?
Based on my own specialized tools it appears that lizurhgluizh is 29 points.
1.6mb picture...
Further proof that GW drops these leaks intentionally. It's 2020 and my $100 smartphone has a good enough camera that even a hasty snap while walking by would produce an image with enough pixels for you to blow it up and read the text.
Ah well. We'll get the real leaks soon enough.
Oh sorry - didn't mean to mislead. That was from the previews of the book on the NZ pre-order page.
Its almost like there are real objects in the Indomitus box (including a book) and you don't get any of that paying a monthly fee.
So its no surprise that people feel like they're getting something out of one, but not the other.
And frankly $3 a model for about 60 models and ~$20 for a book that's probably worth about 40 (and they'll price it at...$60, $65?) that's actually a good value.
Take your subscription and pay it for the lifetime of the edition (I currently estimate it at 3.5 years or so, based on the last two) and you'll pay more than $200 and still have nothing.
Right? It’s not like most of us have a grey plastic wall of shame that has sat there for years doing nothing but take up space,
That is totally more valuable than an app we might use every day currently.
And no, I don’t consider illegal sources as viable alternatives. I am an adult and can make informed decisions about what I want to spend my money on instead of feeling entitled to other people’s work because I want it,
Other people want to steal intellectual property because they feel entitled to it? Fine, but at least own it instead of trying to act high and mighty. I have done it multiple times in the past, never made excuses for it other than wanting things I couldn’t afford.
Leth wrote: And no, I don’t consider illegal sources as viable alternatives. I am an adult and can make informed decisions about what I want to spend my money on instead of feeling entitled to other people’s work because I want it,
Other people want to steal intellectual property because they feel entitled to it? Fine, but at least own it instead of trying to act high and mighty. I have done it multiple times in the past, never made excuses for it other than wanting things I couldn’t afford.
Leth wrote: Right? It’s not like most of us have a grey plastic wall of shame that has sat there for years doing nothing but take up space,
That is totally more valuable than an app we might use every day currently.
And no, I don’t consider illegal sources as viable alternatives. I am an adult and can make informed decisions about what I want to spend my money on instead of feeling entitled to other people’s work because I want it,
Other people want to steal intellectual property because they feel entitled to it? Fine, but at least own it instead of trying to act high and mighty. I have done it multiple times in the past, never made excuses for it other than wanting things I couldn’t afford.
Leth wrote: Right? It’s not like most of us have a grey plastic wall of shame that has sat there for years doing nothing but take up space,
That is totally more valuable than an app we might use every day currently.
And no, I don’t consider illegal sources as viable alternatives. I am an adult and can make informed decisions about what I want to spend my money on instead of feeling entitled to other people’s work because I want it,
Other people want to steal intellectual property because they feel entitled to it? Fine, but at least own it instead of trying to act high and mighty. I have done it multiple times in the past, never made excuses for it other than wanting things I couldn’t afford.
Who are you ranting at?
Last I checked I didn’t have to be ranting against anyone in particular? Might have missed a forum rule.
Sometimes it’s fun to get ahead of the BS that you know is coming,
Not all for me. I'm only getting one. Two are for one friend, and three are for another. My store sold out in 5m flat. I completed my order 1m16s after they went up for pre-order.
Cool, so I am allowed to vent about annoying people just like 1/2 this thread is venting about rules that don’t exist or don’t operate as they complain about.
Dont want the app? Don’t get it, but as is tradition there will be a ton of posts calling people idiots for seeing the value in it. Just getting ahead of the curve.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Not all for me. I'm only getting one. Two are for one friend, and three are for another. My store sold out in 5m flat. I completed my order 1m16s after they went up for pre-order.
As I said earlier, my store was SOLD OUT of pre-orders before Pre-Orders began. They had pre-ordered the pre-order and now they have zero allocated for tomorrow.
Bit of a joke really - barely any stock with independents, GW itself out of stock 45 minutes into a 2 week pre order, and no indication of what comes next for those who didnt get in first.
I get this is not a necessity in life and my world isnt ending because I can't get a copy, but I'm still kind of bummed that outside buying the rules as a stand alone product, I have no way to buy in to the new edition.
How can you launch your new edition and not have plans to have a readily available starter in enough stock to supply demand. If this is the specia limited version, whats coming next? How are new bloods going to be introduced in a cost friendly (lol) way?
FrothingMuppet wrote: Bit of a joke really - barely any stock with independents, GW itself out of stock 45 minutes into a 2 week pre order, and no indication of what comes next for those who didnt get in first.
I get this is not a necessity in life and my world isnt ending because I can't get a copy, but I'm still kind of bummed that outside buying the rules as a stand alone product, I have no way to buy in to the new edition.
How can you launch your new edition and not have plans to have a readily available starter in enough stock to supply demand. If this is the specia limited version, whats coming next? How are new bloods going to be introduced in a cost friendly (lol) way?
This is just GW learning from nintendo, like they've learned a lot from shady practices in the video gaming industry.
Deliberately under produce your first run, talk it up a lot, and people will jump over themselves to buy it all for FOMO. Then you can wave around how stupendously popular your product is that it sold out in seconds. Then a bit later you come out with more, and people will trip over themselves again to buy it just in case this too will sell out in minutes for FOMO.
H.B.M.C. wrote: To be fair, this isn't the starter. Some form of the contents of this box will come later IMO.
No doubt. Thats what I understand to be the case. It's just the silence about what form that will take, and when it might happen that irks me right now. At least put something on the community page saying "fear not, once this sells you can buy XX instead".
Anyway, congrats to those lucky few who got one, and I'll go back to lurking in the cave waiting for round 2.
FrothingMuppet wrote: Bit of a joke really - barely any stock with independents, GW itself out of stock 45 minutes into a 2 week pre order, and no indication of what comes next for those who didnt get in first.
I get this is not a necessity in life and my world isnt ending because I can't get a copy, but I'm still kind of bummed that outside buying the rules as a stand alone product, I have no way to buy in to the new edition.
How can you launch your new edition and not have plans to have a readily available starter in enough stock to supply demand. If this is the specia limited version, whats coming next? How are new bloods going to be introduced in a cost friendly (lol) way?
This is just GW learning from nintendo, like they've learned a lot from shady practices in the video gaming industry.
Deliberately under produce your first run, talk it up a lot, and people will jump over themselves to buy it all for FOMO. Then you can wave around how stupendously popular your product is that it sold out in seconds. Then a bit later you come out with more, and people will trip over themselves again to buy it just in case this too will sell out in minutes for FOMO.
It's all marketing baby.
Exactly, I'm wondering when GW will announce how, out of the graciousness of their heart, they'll make more of the box set.
Leth wrote: Cool, so I am allowed to vent about annoying people just like 1/2 this thread is venting about rules that don’t exist or don’t operate as they complain about.
Hey man if you want to yell at clouds be my guest. I was just asking for clarification.
FrothingMuppet wrote: Bit of a joke really - barely any stock with independents, GW itself out of stock 45 minutes into a 2 week pre order, and no indication of what comes next for those who didnt get in first.
I get this is not a necessity in life and my world isnt ending because I can't get a copy, but I'm still kind of bummed that outside buying the rules as a stand alone product, I have no way to buy in to the new edition.
How can you launch your new edition and not have plans to have a readily available starter in enough stock to supply demand. If this is the specia limited version, whats coming next? How are new bloods going to be introduced in a cost friendly (lol) way?
I feel like Covid must have had something to do with it. It's the only logical conclusion I can draw, because lord knows they had to have been aware of the hype for a new edition+starter set.
FrothingMuppet wrote: Bit of a joke really - barely any stock with independents, GW itself out of stock 45 minutes into a 2 week pre order, and no indication of what comes next for those who didnt get in first.
I get this is not a necessity in life and my world isnt ending because I can't get a copy, but I'm still kind of bummed that outside buying the rules as a stand alone product, I have no way to buy in to the new edition.
How can you launch your new edition and not have plans to have a readily available starter in enough stock to supply demand. If this is the specia limited version, whats coming next? How are new bloods going to be introduced in a cost friendly (lol) way?
This is just GW learning from nintendo, like they've learned a lot from shady practices in the video gaming industry.
Deliberately under produce your first run, talk it up a lot, and people will jump over themselves to buy it all for FOMO. Then you can wave around how stupendously popular your product is that it sold out in seconds. Then a bit later you come out with more, and people will trip over themselves again to buy it just in case this too will sell out in minutes for FOMO.
It's all marketing baby.
You know who talked it up and stoked the FOMO? The god damn community.
This isn't a true starter, and there may still be some allocation issues as they sort out the stores that need to be dropped to the 45 boxes cap (if they don't lower that cap further).
I believe GW when they said they made more of this box than they did any past box set, the problem is that they may have undershot the demand by more than half with their run. Especially when they tease it for over two months.
FrothingMuppet wrote: Bit of a joke really - barely any stock with independents, GW itself out of stock 45 minutes into a 2 week pre order, and no indication of what comes next for those who didnt get in first.
I get this is not a necessity in life and my world isnt ending because I can't get a copy, but I'm still kind of bummed that outside buying the rules as a stand alone product, I have no way to buy in to the new edition.
How can you launch your new edition and not have plans to have a readily available starter in enough stock to supply demand. If this is the specia limited version, whats coming next? How are new bloods going to be introduced in a cost friendly (lol) way?
This is just GW learning from nintendo, like they've learned a lot from shady practices in the video gaming industry.
Deliberately under produce your first run, talk it up a lot, and people will jump over themselves to buy it all for FOMO. Then you can wave around how stupendously popular your product is that it sold out in seconds. Then a bit later you come out with more, and people will trip over themselves again to buy it just in case this too will sell out in minutes for FOMO.
It's all marketing baby.
You know who talked it up and stoked the FOMO? The god damn community.
You.. do know that Warhammer Community is run by GW, right? The folks that have been running daily articles about how awesome and best ever this boxed set will be? GW pushed this thing hard. They even played numbers games this very week with purchase limits. 'Oh, it'll be six, so everyone can get one. Our bad, we're making it three instead- there's just so much demand based on our in depth data of... a day. Better order up!'
That isn't 'the community.' I'm not even sure what 'community' you think you're referring to. There are a couple individuals here who certainly pushed for people to buy it, but that hardly constitutes a community.
FrothingMuppet wrote: Bit of a joke really - barely any stock with independents, GW itself out of stock 45 minutes into a 2 week pre order, and no indication of what comes next for those who didnt get in first.
I get this is not a necessity in life and my world isnt ending because I can't get a copy, but I'm still kind of bummed that outside buying the rules as a stand alone product, I have no way to buy in to the new edition.
How can you launch your new edition and not have plans to have a readily available starter in enough stock to supply demand. If this is the specia limited version, whats coming next? How are new bloods going to be introduced in a cost friendly (lol) way?
This is just GW learning from nintendo, like they've learned a lot from shady practices in the video gaming industry.
Deliberately under produce your first run, talk it up a lot, and people will jump over themselves to buy it all for FOMO. Then you can wave around how stupendously popular your product is that it sold out in seconds. Then a bit later you come out with more, and people will trip over themselves again to buy it just in case this too will sell out in minutes for FOMO.
It's all marketing baby.
I dunno if that is shady, it is still the customer making a poor decision here if they buy a product that is not worth X amount of money to them. Such a tactic does exploit a certain mentality, but at the same time I see it as the company shrugging and going 'well if people want to be this foolish' then filling a demand that the customer still created. That said, I do not feel this is GW's (or even Nintendo's) intent, I feel it is accidental. Because bar evidence otherwise the default assumption should always be incompetence.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FrothingMuppet wrote: Bit of a joke really - barely any stock with independents, GW itself out of stock 45 minutes into a 2 week pre order, and no indication of what comes next for those who didnt get in first.
I get this is not a necessity in life and my world isnt ending because I can't get a copy, but I'm still kind of bummed that outside buying the rules as a stand alone product, I have no way to buy in to the new edition.
How can you launch your new edition and not have plans to have a readily available starter in enough stock to supply demand. If this is the specia limited version, whats coming next? How are new bloods going to be introduced in a cost friendly (lol) way?
It might not have been planned as a single-print run originally; we do not know if the pandemic throwing a wrench into things messed it up in that regard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leth wrote: Dont want the app? Don’t get it, but as is tradition there will be a ton of posts calling people idiots for seeing the value in it. Just getting ahead of the curve.
Agreed, the amount of offense some people are taking over this app is just silly.
FrothingMuppet wrote: Bit of a joke really - barely any stock with independents, GW itself out of stock 45 minutes into a 2 week pre order, and no indication of what comes next for those who didnt get in first.
I get this is not a necessity in life and my world isnt ending because I can't get a copy, but I'm still kind of bummed that outside buying the rules as a stand alone product, I have no way to buy in to the new edition.
How can you launch your new edition and not have plans to have a readily available starter in enough stock to supply demand. If this is the specia limited version, whats coming next? How are new bloods going to be introduced in a cost friendly (lol) way?
This is just GW learning from nintendo, like they've learned a lot from shady practices in the video gaming industry.
Deliberately under produce your first run, talk it up a lot, and people will jump over themselves to buy it all for FOMO. Then you can wave around how stupendously popular your product is that it sold out in seconds. Then a bit later you come out with more, and people will trip over themselves again to buy it just in case this too will sell out in minutes for FOMO.
It's all marketing baby.
You know who talked it up and stoked the FOMO? The god damn community.
Yes, GW's gotten real good at managing the community. Like, none of this is strange. This is just companies taking advantage of basic marketing and psychology. The average consumer doesn't really have a chance to make informed decisions any more.
If they do that it might make this worthwhile.
I was just asking for clarification.