As I was already going to rebase a lot of my WoC to rounds for use as Daemons/Spawn etc for 40k. So I am cautiously optimistic I might enjoy the duality of whatever this becomes.
It would be nice if we got some videos going over the things they've changed/added like we did for 7th 40k.
statu wrote: I'm excited for the next edition, because it's a good chance for me to finally get into fantasy properly. Even if they screw the game and everyone playing sticks with 8th, I know at least 5 other guys at my local store that are all planning on starting in the next edition, or have recently started to prepare for the next edition.
What if ...
9E is the beginning of a glorious revolution for Warhammer? Veterans alienated by the changes wrought to the game - the new edition does in fact turn out to be a smaller scale, largely-skirmish game with models based on round bases, sporting simplified rules, fewer factions and more objective-based gameplay - continue to play 8E, however 9E succeeds in pulling over significant numbers of 40k players, as well as numerous prior Fantasy adherents left behind by the changes after 6E and a startling number of young gamers fresh to the hobby. Some 8E players dabble in 9E but find its limited scale and lack of depth unrewarding; sharing table space with the 'Oldhammerers', some 9E players begin to become interested in expanding their small skirmishes into something grander with greater detail. Someone - her name lost to the wilds of the Internet - begins combining the rules of 8E and 9E, creating an unofficial '10E' fully capable of using the mini-armybooks pumped out by GW Digital month after month. This edition is run through the Indy GT circuit of the US with remarkable success, packing event after event with both 8E and 9E players, heretofore having kept to their own realms. Grudgingly, GW releases Warhammer: the Game of Fantasy Battles 10E. No one is surprised by the new edition's rules - they are simply the most up to date version of the 10E rules available online - however the rulebook sells out as fast as GW can print them. Gamers are, after all, suckers for a nice rule book, even this far in the near future.
Meanwhile, rumors begin circulating of a tenth edition of 40k, along with potentially traumatizing photos of wraithknights and termagants on square bases ...
Meanwhile, rumors begin circulating of a tenth edition of 40k, along with potentially traumatizing photos of wraithknights and termagants on square bases ...
"Peter, we've talked about this, there has to be 8th and 9th editions of 40k first."
"Oh, no, Lois. That's the beauty of 10th ed. 40k. It's so intense it jumps right over 40k 8th and 9th edition!"
Meanwhile, rumors begin circulating of a tenth edition of 40k, along with potentially traumatizing photos of wraithknights and termagants on square bases ...
- Salvage
Charles Rampant wrote: Navarro, Don't Like: See, you have both just explained why you are not excited; what you have not done is actually address my question, which is why you are so amazed that he is excited. Does his excitement offend you in some way, to prompt such marvel?
Sigh.
Actually just the opposite, I have clearly addressed your judgmental remarks and in good faith, one last time, I will repeat that I cannot understand being very exited with something you know nothing about. Not understanding someone behavior is very different from being offended by it, so could you drop the drama act. Thanks.
agnosto wrote: I just find it so odd that you can be excited about something you know literally nothing about.
Because.....HOPE!
We all remember a day when the sun shone down on our miniatures and we played happy games with friends and eagerly awaited for the next trip to the game store. We were happy. And while we grumbled some, GW was our favorite.
Now we hunker down in our bunkers while GW lobs shells and mustard gas at us, and anything, anything at all, that gives us a bit of hope causes excitement. Hope that the Evil Kirby is dead and the rest of those locked in the Citadel of Idiot Marketing will be freed. And we'll be able to sneak into a GW store and maybe reclaim....just for an instant....that feeling we had on those sunny days.
Hope leads to dispair, dispair leads to insanity, insanity leads to chaos and demons pouring out of your eyeballs. DON'T HOPE!!
Let Cynicism be your armor, disgruntlement be your shield. Grind hope under your iron boot.
I'm super stoked about it...the internet forums are filled with people who grumble and complain about everything that games workshop does.
Obviously some things gw does is not so great but sometimes they do great thing (a la end times) but I'm excited and hope it will be good.
I would like more solid ideas as to what is going on but who knows what will come
I'm super stoked about it...the internet forums are filled with people who grumble and complain about everything that games workshop does.
Obviously some things gw does is not so great but sometimes they do great thing (a la end times) but I'm excited and hope it will be good.
I would like more solid ideas as to what is going on but who knows what will come
Obviously people at GWhq know what is coming but it doesn't actually get communicated to customers any earlier than a week before it's released.
It's been repeatedly stated that every other company previews and builds hype for future products.
age of sigmar at sounds interesting as a title. That's about all I can say from what I know about it!
More stoked about the BA summer campaign that's been announced. Was planning on buying that recent army box in the next fews weeks and it ties right in.
agnosto wrote: I just find it so odd that you can be excited about something you know literally nothing about.
Because.....HOPE!
We all remember a day when the sun shone down on our miniatures and we played happy games with friends and eagerly awaited for the next trip to the game store. We were happy. And while we grumbled some, GW was our favorite.
Now we hunker down in our bunkers while GW lobs shells and mustard gas at us, and anything, anything at all, that gives us a bit of hope causes excitement. Hope that the Evil Kirby is dead and the rest of those locked in the Citadel of Idiot Marketing will be freed. And we'll be able to sneak into a GW store and maybe reclaim....just for an instant....that feeling we had on those sunny days.
Hope leads to dispair, dispair leads to insanity, insanity leads to chaos and demons pouring out of your eyeballs. DON'T HOPE!!
Let Cynicism be your armor, disgruntlement be your shield. Grind hope under your iron boot.
I'm super stoked about it...the internet forums are filled with people who grumble and complain about everything that games workshop does.
Obviously some things gw does is not so great but sometimes they do great thing (a la end times) but I'm excited and hope it will be good.
I would like more solid ideas as to what is going on but who knows what will come
The hobbyist in me is super excited about a new game, but cautious because of past disappointments.
The retailer portion of my brain knows that enthusiasm with no information leads to large orders of stuff that sit and rot on shelves and I don't get a paycheck.
I don't let the Hobbyist part of my brain set final numbers on orders, always a bad idea.
Sounds like Ravening Hordes 2.0 with a more robust set of quickstart rules (in the form of a low-level skirmish game) in the starter set, named "Age of Sigmar."
Either way I'm intrigued. Nervous, as I am before any big change, but by and large intrigued and excited. 8th edition is getting a bit stale and I'm looking forward to something new. Hopefully it will be good, but there are always some bumps in a new edition.
Invalidating all the old armybooks is a good call though. Limping into an edition with strange FAQs on a book written for the previous edition has always been kind of obnoxious. Half of your stuff plain doesn't work, there are all sorts of strange interactions, things aren't properly costed. Very irritating. Provided these aren't too anemic, I think it will be an interesting dynamic to start us off.
Curious how much of the resin/metal figures will survive into the new edition, though. Guessing much of it will be culled. Good bye varghulfs, black coaches, fellbats, and the entire TK rare section...
Ravening hordes 2.0 that allowed for all models currently in production to be used (ET models folded into their respective army sections would be the right idea) would be amaze-balls. I have hope GW will do that. We'll see what we get. If all else fails, I'll use the cheap chaos army I'm accumulating ($40 for 10 metal 6th Ed chaos Knights!!) in KoW.
timetowaste85 wrote: Ravening hordes 2.0 that allowed for all models currently in production to be used (ET models folded into their respective army sections would be the right idea) would be amaze-balls. I have hope GW will do that. We'll see what we get. If all else fails, I'll use the cheap chaos army I'm accumulating ($40 for 10 metal 6th Ed chaos Knights!!) in KoW.
My thought process as well with my Elves I've been accumulating and my Dwarves
I'm super stoked about it...the internet forums are filled with people who grumble and complain about everything that games workshop does.
Obviously some things gw does is not so great but sometimes they do great thing (a la end times) but I'm excited and hope it will be good.
I would like more solid ideas as to what is going on but who knows what will come
Obviously people at GWhq know what is coming but it doesn't actually get communicated to customers any earlier than a week before it's released.
It's been repeatedly stated that every other company previews and builds hype for future products.
Weeeelll they kind of inadvertently create a hype about it....especially through these rumours that we all hear because then everyone is saying "age of sigmar? What's that?" "Omg new stuff!" "What's it going to be?" "I'm slowly dying inside trying to figure out what it is!"
I would like a better preview before preorders but still it can be exciting...
This is a little overdue though because we have been hearing rumours of a new edition for way longer than probably any other rumour so people are just getting either bored or frustrated about the lack of information
Meanwhile, rumors begin circulating of a tenth edition of 40k, along with potentially traumatizing photos of wraithknights and termagants on square bases ...
- Salvage
Surely, you speak of madness.
To be honest, the square bases work pretty well for tanks looking at that pic
Charles Rampant wrote: Navarro, Don't Like: See, you have both just explained why you are not excited; what you have not done is actually address my question, which is why you are so amazed that he is excited. Does his excitement offend you in some way, to prompt such marvel?
Sigh.
Actually just the opposite, I have clearly addressed your judgmental remarks and in good faith, one last time, I will repeat that I cannot understand being very exited with something you know nothing about. Not understanding someone behavior is very different from being offended by it, so could you drop the drama act. Thanks.
Actually, sorry about that, I meant to refer to someone else but typed your name instead. You already replied and made sense doing so. Yay, typing with fat fingers?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Optimism is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Pessimism is the first step on the road to a pleasant surprise.
An optimist hopes we live in the pest possible world.
A pessimist KNOWS we do.
Back on topic, I'm looking forward to this and Ant-Man as my July surprises.
Hoping neither sucks
Well my view is, I have the money ready and in general I'm up for a update to the fantasy setting, especially if its in any way Skirmish based.. so either GW gets my money on the 4th with a Skirmish based release or they don't.. its down to them now, entirely down to what actually shows up.
Although I still scratch my head on the fact they seem so obsessed with hiding all of this stuff.. can you imagine FFG acting like they do.
I do love the suggestions of a better tomorrow though.. one can only dream eh?
I wouldn't say I'm excited about this Age of Sigmar thingy, I'm just curious. I've never played Warhammer Fantasy (too expensive and too many models required). GW burnt all its bridges with me (White Dwarf and 40K) bar one - LOTR. And even then I get most of my stuff via Ebay and Element Games, not direct from GW, and my interest in the SBG is sustained only by the enthusiastic if small community (Great British Hobbit League).
But it'll be entertaining to watch GW try to build a new bridge with me. Skirmish games are more my thing, and I always like to at least look at pictures of pretty models on the internet, so I'm curious. But I know even if this does turn out to be a Skirmish game, it'll somehow turn out to be just as expensive as the current mass battle Warhammer Fantasy.
timetowaste85 wrote: Ravening hordes 2.0 that allowed for all models currently in production to be used (ET models folded into their respective army sections would be the right idea) would be amaze-balls. I have hope GW will do that. We'll see what we get. If all else fails, I'll use the cheap chaos army I'm accumulating ($40 for 10 metal 6th Ed chaos Knights!!) in KoW.
Yes! And Dogs of War! Plus Chaos Dorfs!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: I remain optimistic here - if it is something good?.
Not really. Years ago, it could get worse: because we had few systems to jump to. Since we're living in a miniatures revolution of games, the "worst" that can happen is other companies get your money!! Unless you're one of those weirdos who threaten to slit their wrists if Warhammer turns out badly. In which case, I promise to play bagpipes at your funeral!! (Think Ross's attempt in Friends).
PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:Sounds like Ravening Hordes 2.0 with a more robust set of quickstart rules (in the form of a low-level skirmish game) in the starter set, named "Age of Sigmar."
What sounds like that? Where? When?
8th edition is getting a bit stale
Well there's a ringing endorsement for a game system and GW culture.
TheAuldGrump wrote:Though optimists digging in a pile of manure, saying 'There must be a pony in here somewhere....' does tend to make us smile too....
The Auld Grump
Brings to mind a local version of a saying over here, that'd suit all this wishlisting too. "D'ye know what 'thought' did? Stuck a feather in the dughel and thought it would grow a hen."
Well as a long time 40k player who's always wanted to do Fantasy I'm really excited by some of the rumours. Lizardmen were what originally drew me to the hobby, but no-one played fantasy at all in my area, so I played 40k instead. Fast forwards to moving to uni where there was a fantasy scene, but things had now moved forwards to the point where standard unit sizes in fantasy was 50+ models. As someone on a tight budget and that is a slow painter this killed any enthusiasm I had for starting a fantasy force as it was too expensive and would take too long to get tabletop ready. I know a lot of people who felt the same.
As it stands myself and a lot of the 40k crowd at my club are really interested in jumping into fantasy if it requires a smaller number of models than at present and the rules system is good. There are plans in the works for an escalation campaign to help us build our forces and we are already deciding on the armies we'd like.
This is all a long way round to say that if the rules are good you might actually find that this provides a boost in the number of people playing Fantasy, as it might attract in a pool of players like myself that have long been interested, but never had the funds or time to build an army.
Still, need to wait and see what the damage is with Age of Sigmar first.
I think there's plenty of people will jump into Fantasy if it comes out as it sounds - smallish skirmish game. I'll likely be one of them, with enough existing mini's to get a few factions started.
But many are apprehensive because we've seen what they've done to 40K and pretty much any release in the last decade.
I'd instantly start either Vampire Counts or Wood Elves there's going to be a skirmish version added in the game. It'd at least let me play the game instead of painting boring hordes. Wich keep me mostly away from Fantasy, apart from WoC. It at least gives me an option to play. Instead of having to paint 80+ skeletons.
I'm super stoked about it...the internet forums are filled with people who grumble and complain about everything that games workshop does.
Obviously some things gw does is not so great but sometimes they do great thing (a la end times) but I'm excited and hope it will be good.
I would like more solid ideas as to what is going on but who knows what will come
Obviously people at GWhq know what is coming but it doesn't actually get communicated to customers any earlier than a week before it's released.
It's been repeatedly stated that every other company previews and builds hype for future products.
Weeeelll they kind of inadvertently create a hype about it....especially through these rumours that we all hear because then everyone is saying "age of sigmar? What's that?" "Omg new stuff!" "What's it going to be?" "I'm slowly dying inside trying to figure out what it is!"
I would like a better preview before preorders but still it can be exciting...
This is a little overdue though because we have been hearing rumours of a new edition for way longer than probably any other rumour so people are just getting either bored or frustrated about the lack of information
Look at it from my point of view. I have a budget for hobby spending this summer. I like Warhammer and I like Flames of War. I have to pick one, both is not an option.
Flames of war have told me what they're releasing this summer. I can look at pictures, prices, and plan an army out of it. I'm impressed.
GW have also told me that on July 4th, pre-orders go up for AOS. I'm interested, but what am I getting? There's no info, no pictures, nothing.
For all I know, AOS could be a brand new anti-dandruff shampoo!!
Does my hard earned money go on FOW, something I know about, or do I gamble on the unknown with GW?
I have to admit that I'm suddenly really panicky about models getting discontinued. There's still a bunch of WHFB stuff I'd like to have, but I can't drop that sort of money all at once.
And I've burnt myself waiting in the past, like with those lovely Fantasy terrain kits. All that stuff went OOP on me.
Look at it from my point of view. I have a budget for hobby spending this summer. I like Warhammer and I like Flames of War. I have to pick one, both is not an option.
Flames of war have told me what they're releasing this summer. I can look at pictures, prices, and plan an army out of it. I'm impressed.
GW have also told me that on July 4th, pre-orders go up for AOS. I'm interested, but what am I getting? There's no info, no pictures, nothing.
For all I know, AOS could be a brand new anti-dandruff shampoo!!
Does my hard earned money go on FOW, something I know about, or do I gamble on the unknown with GW?
It's a no-brainer for me.
This. So much this.
If i know what's coming and I can plan for it, I can budget for a few months and spend a good lump of cash.
If otherwise your business model is fishing for overpriced impulse buys I might buy something down the road. Maybe.
What? You wanted information about what is exactly Age of Sigmar, like a new game , a campaign book, a story book or a new starter box?
Are you insane? Just saying GW will release SOMETHING FROM GW should be enough for you! True fans buy (and hype) blindly, they do not have to know more than that.
Yep, it just shows what GW is all about. A trademark, and nothing else. Buying their products is a honor they allow you in their great benevolence, after all.
If Age of Sigmar turns out good and there is a use for them, I shall paint my old cold-ones. You know, the one that looks like super fast, super nimble raptors. Those. They can actually look pretty damn good. I converted one wih the upper jaw and head of a (old) salamander instead of the original head, the cold one looks like he/she is ready to swallow someone's head entirely, it is pretty awesome. The main bad thing about it is that I only have 4 of them. I also have a Blood Bowl skink converted with some huge pretty mean-looking dagger that I used to play as a skink hero with the magic item that give the rule that says you directly kill in one blow if you roll a 6 to wound (I cannot remember the name in English). It was pretty damn cool too! I would love to play it and to gut people all over the place again! Maybe I will try to dust off all my very, very old lizardmen models. They are almost all one or two versions older than current. Unlike my Sisters, that are basically all current .
(Not buying anything new, though. Unless it is plastic Sisters.)
This is what I have a problem with: people are saying GW is bring out a small skirmish level game to help new players to get in the game at a smaller/cheaper level. We already had this, it was Mordhiem and worked well. GW allowed it to die on the vine but through private players it has been kept alive and they have expanded the rules to work well. Why do they do this? They released Dead Fleet and expected great things even though they had one of the best naval battle systems with Man-O-War but dropped it like a hot tater.
I like the concept of Mordheim, but it was never going to work as an introduction to WFB on a relevant scale. The gap between model counts and general mechanics (urban comabt vs open battlefield) was just too big.
The game also lived and died when WFB was still going strong and GW had no desire to offer a cheaper alternative.
In general, it takes more than just low model count and the same setting for a game to be an effective gateway drug. The models and rules have to be highly compatible. Take Necromunda and 40k. Pretty much nothing from that awesome game transitions to 40k, unless as a "counts as". Now think about a Kill Team game with Deathwatch, Ork Freebooterz, Gene Cults and an some Eldar Aspect Rave Party with BBQ and Music as your starter forces. Let the top model count go as high as 30 for the Orks. Heck, go 40. Then add relevant entries for those "warbands" in the respective big game codex books, preferably as Troops.
There, you can now light your fireplace with 100$ bills.
His Master's Voice wrote: Now think about a Kill Team game with Deathwatch, Ork Freebooterz, Gene Cults and an some Eldar Aspect Rave Party with BBQ and Music as your starter forces. Let the top model count go as high as 30 for the Orks. Heck, go 40. Then add relevant entries for those "warbands" in the respective big game codex books, preferably as Troops.
And just like that, I'd be playing 40k again. Or at least 'HMV Presents: Kill Team'.
Meanwhile, rumors begin circulating of a tenth edition of 40k, along with potentially traumatizing photos of wraithknights and termagants on square bases ...
"Peter, we've talked about this, there has to be 8th and 9th editions of 40k first."
"Oh, no, Lois. That's the beauty of 10th ed. 40k. It's so intense it jumps right over 40k 8th and 9th edition!"
"But that's..."
"I have spoken!"
Referred to as "the forgotten and the purged," the two missing editions allow players to make up their own custom editions of Warhammer 40,000.
Yes there is definitely a niche to expand Kill Team into a true introduction to 40k. And hopefully Age of Sigmar is going to be that for fantasy and a whole new game in its own right too.
When people say Skirmish, they are thinking 30-40 models a side more than the 10 of Mordhiem.
On a similar sort of vibe, I really think that a single box of say, Orc Boyz, should be a valid unit and reflected as such in-game. It always seems like you need at least TWO boxes of everything!
Maybe improve horde faction stats slightly so that you don't need as many.
Reduce the Magic phase and instead give units the options for magical buffs/attacks.
I dunno, I'd like to see a fast and more cost effective version take over but I'll probably hold off until I see KoW 2 anyways.
monders wrote: On a similar sort of vibe, I really think that a single box of say, Orc Boyz, should be a valid unit and reflected as such in-game. It always seems like you need at least TWO boxes of everything!
Maybe improve horde faction stats slightly so that you don't need as many.
Reduce the Magic phase and instead give units the options for magical buffs/attacks.
I dunno, I'd like to see a fast and more cost effective version take over but I'll probably hold off until I see KoW 2 anyways.
Agreed, this is the thing that stopped me building my HE army a few years ago. There was a new release wave (White Lions, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard) that was chock full of amazing minis, all of which would have to have been bought in multiples to be of any use. I'd have happily paid for one box of any, but needing at least two killed any interest I had.
If this new ruleset is of a scope where I can take, say a couple dozen Spearmen, a dozen Archers, a box of White Lions and some Ellyrion Reavers as a viable full force, I'll be all over that!
There is a difference between "viable" and "valid".
That box of Orc Boyz is a valid unit--but not viable.
Agreed with the rest of Paradigm's point. As it stands, I was looking at just ignoring certain units for my Elf armies because you just need so damn many of them--same goes for Cavalry that isn't Monstrous.
I can totally understand the excitement of some others in the thread - just because we don't know many details doesn't mean we can't look forward to Age of Sigmar's release. Played Fantasy since '92 and while I love the setting, for me it was stale - the same old fluff again and again. The End Times finally moved the plot forward - it was the culmination of over 20 years of hints and suspense, finally being delivered on in a big way (unlike Storm of Chaos). Why is it so strange to think that some people are equally excited to see where the story goes next? Personally I've been a huge fan of all the End Times model releases, and I see no reason why the starter set model's would be any worse detail wise, so frankly I'd even pre-order it without any information going in because it's going to deliver on what I want most - story and models. If I don't like the rules they'll just make awesome conversion parts for 8th edition armies.
monders wrote: On a similar sort of vibe, I really think that a single box of say, Orc Boyz, should be a valid unit and reflected as such in-game. It always seems like you need at least TWO boxes of everything!
Maybe improve horde faction stats slightly so that you don't need as many.
Reduce the Magic phase and instead give units the options for magical buffs/attacks.
I dunno, I'd like to see a fast and more cost effective version take over but I'll probably hold off until I see KoW 2 anyways.
Agreed, this is the thing that stopped me building my HE army a few years ago. There was a new release wave (White Lions, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard) that was chock full of amazing minis, all of which would have to have been bought in multiples to be of any use. I'd have happily paid for one box of any, but needing at least two killed any interest I had.
If this new ruleset is of a scope where I can take, say a couple dozen Spearmen, a dozen Archers, a box of White Lions and some Ellyrion Reavers as a viable full force, I'll be all over that!
If you want one of the most extreme examples of this, try making a Khainite Dark Elf Army.
You want Witch Elves for your core troops (20 for a small unit up to 40 in a horde). Okay a box of 10 Witch Elves is... £35?! So a single unit of your core troops will cost between £70 and £140
reds8n wrote: This product will be removed from sale on June 26th. The Age of Sigmar is coming!
Glad I got my copy a month ago!
I grabbed one recently for $75 and am probably going to pick up at least 1 more. Worst case is they create a solid base for KoW armies for dirt cheap and best case they are good for a more WotR style WFB gaming which looked awesome in their 4x2 round movement trays.
Hulksmash wrote: I grabbed one recently for $75 and am probably going to pick up at least 1 more. Worst case is they create a solid base for KoW armies for dirt cheap and best case they are good for a more WotR style WFB gaming which looked awesome in their 4x2 round movement trays.
I only bought it for the Skaven, and only then for Warhammer Quest. Cheapest way to get Skaven characters and Ogres.
Bottle wrote:When people say Skirmish, they are thinking 30-40 models a side more than the 10 of Mordhiem.
monders wrote:On a similar sort of vibe, I really think that a single box of say, Orc Boyz, should be a valid unit and reflected as such in-game. It always seems like you need at least TWO boxes of everything!
Reduce the Magic phase and instead give units the options for magical buffs/attacks.
Am I allowed to point out that Warmachine / Hordes has all of those things, plus more stuff SkirmishHammer people keep one-upping? As well as tighter rules than I believe GW capable of creating? Yes, yes, you don' t like the models and/or aesthetic. Rebuttal: 1) Use models you do like? 2) Having seen the art for AoS, the last redux of the Empire and the popularity of Skaven, can you deny that The Dub isn't cashing in on the same steampunk wagon?
Anyway, I'll return to simmering in the background.
Hulksmash wrote: Because Skaven & Empire haven't been steampunk'ish since before WMH's existed...
Or steampunk rats didn't exist before WHFB... Nobody's original here, pretending GW invented something is just silly. GW stole the idea from D&D so where are we now?
I remember the Nezumi and were-rats, but I don't remember early D&D having steampunk until Spell Jammer (which wasn't really STEAMpunk) or Eberron (which doesn't really have rat-men).
Didn't say they didn't. I said that Skaven and Empire were steam punk before WMH existed. Since he pointed out as one of his "points" that GW was cashing in on the steam punk vibe of Warmachine like GW suddenly jumped on that bandwagon because of Warmachine.
Everything in a fantasy setting is going to have been done before even if it's in literature. That goes without saying.
Hulksmash wrote: Didn't say they didn't. I said that Skaven and Empire were steam punk before WMH existed. Since he pointed out as one of his "points" that GW was cashing in on the steam punk vibe of Warmachine like GW suddenly jumped on that bandwagon because of Warmachine.
Fair enough, and all that only helps my rebuttal that "Well I don't like steampunk" isn't the best argument in favor of Warhams over Warmahordes.
I'm actually not being a WM/H fanboy (because I'm not one), just going back to my point that if people want to play a fantasy-ish skirmish game with X,Y and Z features, you can literally start doing it right now. With some pretty nice plastic starter kits, in fact
Hulksmash wrote: Didn't say they didn't. I said that Skaven and Empire were steam punk before WMH existed. Since he pointed out as one of his "points" that GW was cashing in on the steam punk vibe of Warmachine like GW suddenly jumped on that bandwagon because of Warmachine.
Fair enough, and all that only helps my rebuttal that "Well I don't like steampunk" isn't the best argument in favor of Warhams over Warmahordes.
I'm actually not being a WM/H fanboy (because I'm not one), just going back to my point that if people want to play a fantasy-ish skirmish game with X,Y and Z features, you can literally start doing it right now. With some pretty nice plastic starter kits, in fact
- Salvage
Personally I'm hoping for a more War of the Ring style game play out of the new fantasy or at least a slip back to 6th/7th style as far as numbers go.
That said I dislike the WMH aesthetic and the actual game play for a skirmish game. WMH isn't for me and simply being a skirmish game with tight rules doesn't mean that it's what people are looking for. Personally I've found Wrath of Kings to be a solid fantasy-esque skirmish to be excellent so that is my skirmish game of choice. Which is why I'm hoping for something between a skirmish and the current version of fantasy out of WFB.
adamsouza wrote: Nothing is stopping GW from adding additional factions back to Fantasy. The six factions thing may just be six factions at the release of the new edition.
I'm of mixed feelings about the rumored "six factions". On the one hand, IMOGW has proven themselves as incapbably of adequatly supporting the number of armies that currently exist in WHFB. A big reboot of the game might be the perfect time to reign in the sheer number of armies in the game, currently. Of course, on the other hand I don't want my armies to be the ones discontinued/merged.
I remember the Nezumi and were-rats, but I don't remember early D&D having steampunk until Spell Jammer (which wasn't really STEAMpunk) or Eberron (which doesn't really have rat-men).
Who am I forgetting?
Spell Jammer not steampunk? Gallions in space. Another steampunk reference for D&D, though later than Skaven was Planescape.
Ever read "Swords of Lankhmar?", 1968. Not steampunk per se but intelligent rats, under-city...etc.
Geez, I'm old.
So, steam punk and wererats have existed in other places; I'm not sure if anyone else has put them together but it's not like it's difficult to add A to B in any combination. Actually, steampunk Ogres sounds really cool but then I guess they kind of have that ....
As for other, early influences to the creation of Skaven, look into Raxivort, the patron god of xvarts and wererats...his ethos will probably strike a chord with any Skaven fans and was written by Gary Gygax, I want to say I read about it in a Dragon Magazine...waaaaaaay back. (man, I AM old.)
monders wrote: On a similar sort of vibe, I really think that a single box of say, Orc Boyz, should be a valid unit and reflected as such in-game. It always seems like you need at least TWO boxes of everything!
Maybe improve horde faction stats slightly so that you don't need as many.
Reduce the Magic phase and instead give units the options for magical buffs/attacks.
I dunno, I'd like to see a fast and more cost effective version take over but I'll probably hold off until I see KoW 2 anyways.
Agreed, this is the thing that stopped me building my HE army a few years ago. There was a new release wave (White Lions, Dragon Princes, Phoenix Guard) that was chock full of amazing minis, all of which would have to have been bought in multiples to be of any use. I'd have happily paid for one box of any, but needing at least two killed any interest I had.
If this new ruleset is of a scope where I can take, say a couple dozen Spearmen, a dozen Archers, a box of White Lions and some Ellyrion Reavers as a viable full force, I'll be all over that!
Funnily enough, this was just about the size of the armies used in White Dwarf battle reports way back when I started playing in the mid-90s. If Age of Sigmar takes us back to that game size, I will have four viable armies instead of just barely one.
Oryza Sativa wrote: Funnily enough, this was just about the size of the armies used in White Dwarf battle reports way back when I started playing in the mid-90s. If Age of Sigmar takes us back to that game size, I will have four viable armies instead of just barely one.
You know, this is probably a large part of why my playing of WHFB has dropped off the last few years. I just have not had the time/energy/inclination to buy, assemble and paint up huge blocks of troops in order to play. Maybe if I could play a game with... say three or four boxes of figures instead of 10 or 15, I might actually finish a few armies and play?
Oryza Sativa wrote: Funnily enough, this was just about the size of the armies used in White Dwarf battle reports way back when I started playing in the mid-90s. If Age of Sigmar takes us back to that game size, I will have four viable armies instead of just barely one.
You know, this is probably a large part of why my playing of WHFB has dropped off the last few years. I just have not had the time/energy/inclination to buy, assemble and paint up huge blocks of troops in order to play. Maybe if I could play a game with... say three or four boxes of figures instead of 10 or 15, I might actually finish a few armies and play?
Not to be contrary or anything, but doesn't playing fewer points solve all of this?
Oryza Sativa wrote: Funnily enough, this was just about the size of the armies used in White Dwarf battle reports way back when I started playing in the mid-90s. If Age of Sigmar takes us back to that game size, I will have four viable armies instead of just barely one.
You know, this is probably a large part of why my playing of WHFB has dropped off the last few years. I just have not had the time/energy/inclination to buy, assemble and paint up huge blocks of troops in order to play. Maybe if I could play a game with... say three or four boxes of figures instead of 10 or 15, I might actually finish a few armies and play?
Something else I think a lot of players did in earlier editions (this is just anecdotal) was to buy and play multiple armies.
You can do that in Mordheim and Necromunda very easily because of the low model count.
A little harder in a scaled up skirmish (as this may/may not become) but definitely not as hard as the huge # of models needed to play in recent editions of WFB.
Oryza Sativa wrote: Funnily enough, this was just about the size of the armies used in White Dwarf battle reports way back when I started playing in the mid-90s. If Age of Sigmar takes us back to that game size, I will have four viable armies instead of just barely one.
You know, this is probably a large part of why my playing of WHFB has dropped off the last few years. I just have not had the time/energy/inclination to buy, assemble and paint up huge blocks of troops in order to play. Maybe if I could play a game with... say three or four boxes of figures instead of 10 or 15, I might actually finish a few armies and play?
Not to be contrary or anything, but doesn't playing fewer points solve all of this?
Yes, if you manage it (e.g. no Lords, no high powered spells etc)
If you let no holds barred competitive play occur, than smaller points doesn't work that well in 8th edition. Monsters and the magic phase will just end up dominating the game.
Oryza Sativa wrote: Funnily enough, this was just about the size of the armies used in White Dwarf battle reports way back when I started playing in the mid-90s. If Age of Sigmar takes us back to that game size, I will have four viable armies instead of just barely one.
You know, this is probably a large part of why my playing of WHFB has dropped off the last few years. I just have not had the time/energy/inclination to buy, assemble and paint up huge blocks of troops in order to play. Maybe if I could play a game with... say three or four boxes of figures instead of 10 or 15, I might actually finish a few armies and play?
Not to be contrary or anything, but doesn't playing fewer points solve all of this?
It does to some extent, but playing 60 minis a side with a ruleset scaled for 150-odd isn't going to be that satisfying or even efficient. It would 'feel' like a smaller game rather than a naturally sized one, and some things would rule the roost even more. Just the basic Fireball spell, does up to 3d6 hits regardless of game size; if you're playing with units of 10 minis, a mage could delete a regiment a turn without breaking a sweat. Inversely, something like a Cannon might be a lot less powerful as the monsters/uber-heroes they excell at killing would be less prevalent.
Yes, all this could be house ruled to work better, buy with the amount of effort it would take you might as well play, buy, learn of write a different ruleset with the same core but different in almost every way.
YouKnowsIt wrote: I can totally understand the excitement of some others in the thread - just because we don't know many details doesn't mean we can't look forward to Age of Sigmar's release. Played Fantasy since '92 and while I love the setting, for me it was stale - the same old fluff again and again. The End Times finally moved the plot forward - it was the culmination of over 20 years of hints and suspense, finally being delivered on in a big way (unlike Storm of Chaos). Why is it so strange to think that some people are equally excited to see where the story goes next? Personally I've been a huge fan of all the End Times model releases, and I see no reason why the starter set model's would be any worse detail wise, so frankly I'd even pre-order it without any information going in because it's going to deliver on what I want most - story and models. If I don't like the rules they'll just make awesome conversion parts for 8th edition armies.
You do get that a setting, by its very nature, is static, right? It's not supposed to advance, it's supposed to exist. It provides a backdrop and source of inspiration for you to tell your own stories, and for GW to explore in more detail over time. So why is it strange to see people excited to see where the story goes next?
Because it's baffling to me that someone can be a fan of something for 20+ years yet be excited to see the thing they were a fan of torn down and rebooted into something entirely different. And it's senseless as well; either they will change Warhammer so much that it's unrecognisable, in which case you'd have been as well simply playing another game in another system ages ago when Warhammer first became "stale" for you, or the changes will be so minor as to be almost unnoticeable, a superficial excuse to run a big "NEW NEW NEW, BUY BUY BUY!" campaign in White Dwarf, in which case how can it possibly have changed enough to overcome your previous view that it was stale and uninteresting?
I was a fan of the Warhammer World, that's what drew me in, and when I got bored of it I went away and did something else. Either my interest would eventually drift back to it, which it often did, or it would not. At no point did it occur to me to hope that, since I personally was bored of it, the company would utterly eradicate the setting and characters that lots of other people were still enthused by.
YouKnowsIt wrote: I can totally understand the excitement of some others in the thread - just because we don't know many details doesn't mean we can't look forward to Age of Sigmar's release. Played Fantasy since '92 and while I love the setting, for me it was stale - the same old fluff again and again. The End Times finally moved the plot forward - it was the culmination of over 20 years of hints and suspense, finally being delivered on in a big way (unlike Storm of Chaos). Why is it so strange to think that some people are equally excited to see where the story goes next? Personally I've been a huge fan of all the End Times model releases, and I see no reason why the starter set model's would be any worse detail wise, so frankly I'd even pre-order it without any information going in because it's going to deliver on what I want most - story and models. If I don't like the rules they'll just make awesome conversion parts for 8th edition armies.
You do get that a setting, by its very nature, is static, right? It's not supposed to advance, it's supposed to exist. It provides a backdrop and source of inspiration for you to tell your own stories, and for GW to explore in more detail over time. So why is it strange to see people excited to see where the story goes next?
Because it's baffling to me that someone can be a fan of something for 20+ years yet be excited to see the thing they were a fan of torn down and rebooted into something entirely different. And it's senseless as well; either they will change Warhammer so much that it's unrecognisable, in which case you'd have been as well simply playing another game in another system ages ago when Warhammer first became "stale" for you, or the changes will be so minor as to be almost unnoticeable, a superficial excuse to run a big "NEW NEW NEW, BUY BUY BUY!" campaign in White Dwarf, in which case how can it possibly have changed enough to overcome your previous view that it was stale and uninteresting?
I was a fan of the Warhammer World, that's what drew me in, and when I got bored of it I went away and did something else. Either my interest would eventually drift back to it, which it often did, or it would not. At no point did it occur to me to hope that, since I personally was bored of it, the company would utterly eradicate the setting and characters that lots of other people were still enthused by.
Can't you completely ignore End Times? It seems conveniently compartmentalized like a stand alone campaign. The perpetual nature of the Warhammer world (barring End Times) has decades worth of fluff and ideas to inspire as you say. That won't change, for me at least.
Then there's Age of Sigmar, given that I know nothing about it I'm looking forward to learning more and I'm enthusiastic for what we might get as I really love GW miniatures and games and for the most part they do a good job of releasing fun models that I enjoy slapping paint on.
I've got my fingers crossed for a skirmish game with some lovely detailed GW plastics to go with as I'll have 8th (and previous editions... and KoW) to go alongside a skirmish game that could (COULD! Please let it be so!) be a Mordheim for the 21st century.
Alternatively it might turn out to be rancid gak but until then, I live in hope and I'm excited for Age of Sigmar. (Especially as I rather enjoyed End Times!)
mdauben wrote: You know, this is probably a large part of why my playing of WHFB has dropped off the last few years. I just have not had the time/energy/inclination to buy, assemble and paint up huge blocks of troops in order to play. Maybe if I could play a game with... say three or four boxes of figures instead of 10 or 15, I might actually finish a few armies and play?
I feel those feels. On the flipside, having now painted three full sized WHFB 7-8E armies, I can say that the pride I feel at fielding scores of painted minis as a cohesive force is unparalleled by any skirmish game I have played. But then well more than 50% of Warhammer for me is hobby, as I expect it is for many of us, simply due to the nature of unassembled, unpainted minis.
One of the reasons I'm amongst those legions bitter about 9E's rumor scale-stomp? Dismissing the years I spent building and painting those armies and (hypothetically) insisting I find the will to do it all over again, at a fraction of the scale. Here's hoping that's not the case.
So this is from GW as of a minute ago. I will continue to hammer my sales rep about 4 times a week, and he's promised to call me whenever new info pops up.
-Ages of Sigmar is a new system, not necessarily WFB 8.5 or 9.0
-Story advances after the events in Endtimes.
-All current models will be usable. But it's a new system, so how good/bad something was in 8th isn't an indication of how it will perform in AoS.
-Age of Sigmar is not a boardgame, is not an intro game to something larger. It's the main event.
The first line, I get that they're going to say that, and it does seem different enough, but if "all current models will be usable" it's obviously the next fantasy edition, right?
Did he confirm round bases or make any comment about that?
And thanks for the info mikhaila . By the way, if you're looking to carry a new line that is hotter than hot, Guildball is insanely in demand at the moment (can't find stock anywhere).
agreed, this is the next edition of fantasy, no matter how it's presented.
-It uses the models and storyline from WFB
-They don't have another version of WFB coming out.
So whether GW considers this as a new system or not, it will be looked at by 99.99% of people playing the game as the next edition of WFB.
.....unlesss it sucks horribly, and we see "Coming Soon! 9th Edition", in a New Coke style fiasco. Hopefully that doesn't happen and its a good game.
mdauben wrote: You know, this is probably a large part of why my playing of WHFB has dropped off the last few years. I just have not had the time/energy/inclination to buy, assemble and paint up huge blocks of troops in order to play. Maybe if I could play a game with... say three or four boxes of figures instead of 10 or 15, I might actually finish a few armies and play?
I feel those feels. On the flipside, having now painted three full sized WHFB 7-8E armies, I can say that the pride I feel at fielding scores of painted minis as a cohesive force is unparalleled by any skirmish game I have played. But then well more than 50% of Warhammer for me is hobby, as I expect it is for many of us, simply due to the nature of unassembled, unpainted minis.
One of the reasons I'm amongst those legions bitter about 9E's rumor scale-stomp? Dismissing the years I spent building and painting those armies and (hypothetically) insisting I find the will to do it all over again, at a fraction of the scale. Here's hoping that's not the case.
- Salvage
Well, if the rumors are true about a smaller scale game being around first and then the larger-scale rules coming out a few months later, that would help to make everyone happy as well as possibly draw more people into the game. I don't necessarily trust GW to communicate well enough to keep those hardcore gamers with tons of models that would be put off by the scaling down of the game interested, but I guess we will have to wait and see. But, if they get more people into the game with a smaller starting-off point, it is good for everyone.
For my personal situation, I've been playing Warhammer for about 4 years now and have two armies worth about 3000 points each built, but only about 1000 points are painted to a basic level. I would love a smaller scale version of the game that I can play with regularly that works well so I can fine tune those I have painted and keep moving forward with them and building up to a larger army. Right now, I find myself daunted with what needs to be done yet to play a regular game, especially with no painting experience.
mikhaila wrote: So this is from GW as of a minute ago. I will continue to hammer my sales rep about 4 times a week, and he's promised to call me whenever new info pops up.
-Ages of Sigmar is a new system, not necessarily WFB 8.5 or 9.0
-Story advances after the events in Endtimes.
-All current models will be usable. But it's a new system, so how good/bad something was in 8th isn't an indication of how it will perform in AoS.
-Age of Sigmar is not a boardgame, is not an intro game to something larger. It's the main event.
Kanluwen wrote:There is a difference between "viable" and "valid".
That box of Orc Boyz is a valid unit--but not viable.
Agreed with the rest of Paradigm's point. As it stands, I was looking at just ignoring certain units for my Elf armies because you just need so damn many of them--same goes for Cavalry that isn't Monstrous.
Good catch Kan! Whilst I said valid, I meant viable. Makes all the difference!
Boss Salvage wrote:
Am I allowed to point out that Warmachine / Hordes has all of those things, plus more stuff SkirmishHammer people keep one-upping? As well as tighter rules than I believe GW capable of creating?
Yes, yes, you don' t like the models and/or aesthetic. Rebuttal: 1) Use models you do like? 2) Having seen the art for AoS, the last redux of the Empire and the popularity of Skaven, can you deny that The Dub isn't cashing in on the same steampunk wagon?
Anyway, I'll return to simmering in the background.
- Salvage
I love the look of some of the WM/H stuff. That Cryx vibe rocks my world! I've heard it's turbo competitive though, and I'm a bit casual so I'd get rofl stomped regularly and I wouldn't enjoy it. Plus no one has a painted army at my FLGS.
Despite that I think I'd enjoy it. I might even have a go one day
Kanluwen wrote:There is a difference between "viable" and "valid".
That box of Orc Boyz is a valid unit--but not viable.
Agreed with the rest of Paradigm's point. As it stands, I was looking at just ignoring certain units for my Elf armies because you just need so damn many of them--same goes for Cavalry that isn't Monstrous.
Good catch Kan! Whilst I said valid, I meant viable. Makes all the difference!
Sorry if it seemed nitpicky, it's just a discussion I have had way too many times in person with people trying to compare systems.
mikhaila wrote:So this is from GW as of a minute ago. I will continue to hammer my sales rep about 4 times a week, and he's promised to call me whenever new info pops up.
-Ages of Sigmar is a new system, not necessarily WFB 8.5 or 9.0
-Story advances after the events in Endtimes.
-All current models will be usable. But it's a new system, so how good/bad something was in 8th isn't an indication of how it will perform in AoS.
-Age of Sigmar is not a boardgame, is not an intro game to something larger. It's the main event.
RiTides wrote: The first line, I get that they're going to say that, and it does seem different enough, but if "all current models will be usable" it's obviously the next fantasy edition, right?
Did he confirm round bases or make any comment about that?
And thanks for the info mikhaila . By the way, if you're looking to carry a new line that is hotter than hot, Guildball is insanely in demand at the moment (can't find stock anywhere).
Is Guildball popular? My FLGS has a mountain rotting on shelves and i've not yet seen a unit move. Isn't that CMoN's "not Dreadball"? Why would it suddenly be blazing hot?
But I hope I can pick up some current starters on the cheap, I'd rather have more Skaven and HE than the rumoured fantasy space marines and fantasy chaos space marines.
I had the chance to spend about 20 minutes with the upcoming book Age of Sigmar by A. Lanning (a novel, not the game) that deals with the aftermath of the end times. The prologue makes it very clear that Sigmar survives and the whole plot takes place after the end times. Nothing that I have read suggests that there is any time travel involved. It is just a continuation of the story on a much broader scale. I think it is safe to say that the game of the same name follows the story of book and doesn't establish a totally different setting.
In the prologue Sigmar survives and pulls the winds of magics through the gap into the warp. In the process the pure untouched currents of the warp are tainted with the personifications of the winds - the Incarnates. This is the birth of eight new minor gods. But most of the book is not about sigmar or the incarnate gods directly, only three chapters as far as I could see were written from their perspective. The rest of the book is an ordinary fantasy adventure story. The book follows Martellus Mann, a reikguard quartermaster who was slain in the end times, but is reborn in Sigmarshall, the domain of Sigmar. I then skipped some hundred pages forward so I don't know what happened in the aftermath, but in the middle of the book, he has gathered a large party of heroes from many realms and realities in a quest for something called the spirit mill or soul mill or something like this. I know for sure that there are several worlds and that the protagonist can travel from one to the other but I didn't read a chapter where this was described in person and I don't know if this is part of the game world. In the middle of the books there is a huge betrayal, sigmarshall is under siege by the armies of the chaos gods. incarnate fights against incarnate and all are cast out from the warp. Mann starts a search for sigmar in the believe that he was reborn somewhere. The second half of the book is set on a world called Regalia. And here it gets interesting: Regalia is the only area/realm/world that has a map in the book. Regalia looks like the old world or earth and has very familiar regions and city names, etc. But there are some huge alterations: there is no Ulthuan, but a huge landbridge that connects Canada with Scandinavia. There are no elven or dwarven sounding cities or lands but strange sounding names in the Americas and Africa that don't fit any race of the old setting. There is no empire, but lots of different states in Europe and Asia - Nuln, Middenheim, etc are there, but Altdorf is not. There are more things you can deduce from the map if you assume that it represents the setting of the game, which I strongly think it does. Mann finally arrives in the city Heldenheim that is build in the Worlds Edge Mountains just in time to visit the crowning of emperor Karl Franz where he announces his plan to conquer the whole world. Mann thinks that he has found Sigmar and the book jumps to the epilog. Sigmar is chained somewhere and starts to dwindle, but then he smiles and proclaims that his great work to eliminate the chaos once and for all has only started. He vows to conquer the warp.
Could be a load of gak or not, sounds kinda like mtg and its different planes.
edlowe wrote: Somebody posted this over on bols in the comments
I had the chance to spend about 20 minutes with the upcoming book Age of Sigmar by A. Lanning (a novel, not the game) that deals with the aftermath of the end times. The prologue makes it very clear that Sigmar survives and the whole plot takes place after the end times. Nothing that I have read suggests that there is any time travel involved. It is just a continuation of the story on a much broader scale. I think it is safe to say that the game of the same name follows the story of book and doesn't establish a totally different setting.
In the prologue Sigmar survives and pulls the winds of magics through the gap into the warp. In the process the pure untouched currents of the warp are tainted with the personifications of the winds - the Incarnates. This is the birth of eight new minor gods. But most of the book is not about sigmar or the incarnate gods directly, only three chapters as far as I could see were written from their perspective. The rest of the book is an ordinary fantasy adventure story. The book follows Martellus Mann, a reikguard quartermaster who was slain in the end times, but is reborn in Sigmarshall, the domain of Sigmar. I then skipped some hundred pages forward so I don't know what happened in the aftermath, but in the middle of the book, he has gathered a large party of heroes from many realms and realities in a quest for something called the spirit mill or soul mill or something like this. I know for sure that there are several worlds and that the protagonist can travel from one to the other but I didn't read a chapter where this was described in person and I don't know if this is part of the game world. In the middle of the books there is a huge betrayal, sigmarshall is under siege by the armies of the chaos gods. incarnate fights against incarnate and all are cast out from the warp. Mann starts a search for sigmar in the believe that he was reborn somewhere. The second half of the book is set on a world called Regalia. And here it gets interesting: Regalia is the only area/realm/world that has a map in the book. Regalia looks like the old world or earth and has very familiar regions and city names, etc. But there are some huge alterations: there is no Ulthuan, but a huge landbridge that connects Canada with Scandinavia. There are no elven or dwarven sounding cities or lands but strange sounding names in the Americas and Africa that don't fit any race of the old setting. There is no empire, but lots of different states in Europe and Asia - Nuln, Middenheim, etc are there, but Altdorf is not. There are more things you can deduce from the map if you assume that it represents the setting of the game, which I strongly think it does. Mann finally arrives in the city Heldenheim that is build in the Worlds Edge Mountains just in time to visit the crowning of emperor Karl Franz where he announces his plan to conquer the whole world. Mann thinks that he has found Sigmar and the book jumps to the epilog. Sigmar is chained somewhere and starts to dwindle, but then he smiles and proclaims that his great work to eliminate the chaos once and for all has only started. He vows to conquer the warp.
Could be a load of gak or not, sounds kinda like mtg and its different planes.
If even half of that is true, I'm grabbing a parachute and heading for the exit door, and I suspect half of dakka would be following me
Conquer the world? Is Karl Franz going evil?? Would be seriously interesting and a bit of a mind feth if the alignments (other than chaos, of course) switched around.
timetowaste85 wrote: Conquer the world? Is Karl Franz going evil?? Would be seriously interesting and a bit of a mind feth if the alignments (other than chaos, of course) switched around.
Not evil, he does it for the greater good. You couquer the world, and get rid of every nasty little orc, goblin, chaos spawn, skaven, or halfling that you find. Making the world safe forever.
Come on guys, youre judging the whole of 9th on a 20 minute flick through by one guy over on bols based on a novel he read by an author who may or may not be writing cannon and/or a decent story?
I'll wait for the offical launch.....and judge then.
So, to me at least, it seems like they are following 40Ks example with the 3 book hardcover format and threw the fantasy equivalent of KILL TEAM into the core rule book, so they could justify a smaller model count in the starter.
I'm not a big enough WHF die hard to buy the hardcover, but I'll pick up the starter box for the mini rulebook.
Kanluwen wrote: Yeeeeeeeeeah, sounds like a load of crap to me.
Any reason why? Inside knowledge? It DOES sound like the kind of thing GW would do, which is why I ask.
The world described doesn't sound that different to what went before to be honest. Everything else is a bit vague possibly because he seems to have skipped half the book.
So guys I read the upcoming book and got a good glimpse of the parts which are essentially the rumours we have at the moment but sorry guys I skipped all the important bits in the middle which explains the story lol my bad.
Can't quite believe that paragraph, there's just something about sigmarshall.
mikhaila wrote: So this is from GW as of a minute ago. I will continue to hammer my sales rep about 4 times a week, and he's promised to call me whenever new info pops up.
-Age of Sigmar is not a boardgame, is not an intro game to something larger. It's the main event.
So its the real deal from day one, not something that will scale up like some rumours hinted.
I really hope that GW publishes something really GOOD for everyones sake. Don't know why but I have the gut feeling that the rumour of the ridiculous minimalist pamphlet ruleset is going to be a reality.
The world described doesn't sound that different to what went before to be honest.
Aside from the apparent lack of elves...
On a somewhat unrelated note, I'm wondering if the release order of the races in TW: Warhammer is related to something that GW is doing? Presumably GW will fill in any apparent gaps in the racial line-up (I can't see GW cutting the elves, for instance). Perhaps the focus will coincide with the planned TW: Warhammer releases?
Just a random thought that occurred while reading the comments on this page.
It would be quite easy to have a progressing storyline that introduced the races and their realms over the course of a year, with a get you by hordes booklet in the meantime.
That book synopsis is pretty weird, and pretty hard to believe (simply taking a photograph of the map would surely have been enough to prove his point, but obviously nobody has any kind of portable camera on them these days). That said, I can imagine them wanting to break the Empire apart and turn the map into more city states (easier to have a more diverse 'Human' faction that way, especially one that fights against itself). Where do the Elves go, though? Are they on other worlds? Is this basically going to turn into Thor 2, and if so, do Dark Elves get way cool shard space ships?
Kanluwen wrote: Yeeeeeeeeeah, sounds like a load of crap to me.
Any reason why? Inside knowledge? It DOES sound like the kind of thing GW would do, which is why I ask.
Elements of it sound like things that GW would do, certainly, but a lot of it also reads like a disgruntled fan throwing together bits and pieces from the rumors and claiming that he "read a novel". It's interesting as well the author that was supposedly writing the book; the only "A. Lanning" that I could find is "a Marvel Comics writer/inker who has worked in the past with Dan Abnett"(still is on Nova and Guardians of the Galaxy as far as I know).
I could see the surviving Incarnates becoming minor deities, I could see wars of aggression between previously friendly factions if there is a new world established, etc.
But too much of the supposed details from a "quick read" just sounds like this was a guy putting together a list of things that he could use to troll people.
Kanluwen wrote: Yeeeeeeeeeah, sounds like a load of crap to me.
Any reason why? Inside knowledge? It DOES sound like the kind of thing GW would do, which is why I ask.
Elements of it sound like things that GW would do, certainly, but a lot of it also reads like a disgruntled fan throwing together bits and pieces from the rumors and claiming that he "read a novel". It's interesting as well the author that was supposedly writing the book; the only "A. Lanning" that I could find is "a Marvel Comics writer/inker who has worked in the past with Dan Abnett"(still is on Nova and Guardians of the Galaxy as far as I know).
I could see the surviving Incarnates becoming minor deities, I could see wars of aggression between previously friendly factions if there is a new world established, etc.
But too much of the supposed details from a "quick read" just sounds like this was a guy putting together a list of things that he could use to troll people.
I think he co wrote the titan graphic novels with abnett?
Charles Rampant wrote: That book synopsis is pretty weird, and pretty hard to believe (simply taking a photograph of the map would surely have been enough to prove his point, but obviously nobody has any kind of portable camera on them these days). That said, I can imagine them wanting to break the Empire apart and turn the map into more city states (easier to have a more diverse 'Human' faction that way, especially one that fights against itself). Where do the Elves go, though? Are they on other worlds? Is this basically going to turn into Thor 2, and if so, do Dark Elves get way cool shard space ships?
Lol sarcasm i'm hoping, 90% of people I know how a little something called a cellphone which most modern ones are capable of taking very crisp images. The fact that people supposedly get their hands on this stuff, and don't take images leaves me with the impression they are either brain dead or don't care to be taken seriously. No images, and i'm not gonna believe what someone says. As for the elves, that's anyones guess, besides we don't even know if this rumor is valid or not.
Stripped down rules make sense in the starter given that the current GW mindset for Fantasy seems to be "hey guys, we ran the game into the ground , ignored most factions for new releases, then brought out £250 worth of books to finally kill it all, before probably making it so loads of people have armies that don't even work in 9th"...I would imagine certain parts of GW management cannot fathom why they put softback rules only books in boxsets full of miniatures then try sell a big set of hardbacks for £50.
The rapid release of 7th 40K in my local community absolutely damaged the playerbase, and by comparison to these rumours that change was minor even though the need for another hardback rule set was painful.
A potential saving act is if they do the starter before the new hardback set, because if it goes the other way then I think that a month later they start on 10th edition and hope fantasy isnt relegated to specialist by the time they finish.
Kanluwen wrote: Yeeeeeeeeeah, sounds like a load of crap to me.
Any reason why? Inside knowledge? It DOES sound like the kind of thing GW would do, which is why I ask.
Elements of it sound like things that GW would do, certainly, but a lot of it also reads like a disgruntled fan throwing together bits and pieces from the rumors and claiming that he "read a novel". It's interesting as well the author that was supposedly writing the book; the only "A. Lanning" that I could find is "a Marvel Comics writer/inker who has worked in the past with Dan Abnett"(still is on Nova and Guardians of the Galaxy as far as I know).
I could see the surviving Incarnates becoming minor deities, I could see wars of aggression between previously friendly factions if there is a new world established, etc.
But too much of the supposed details from a "quick read" just sounds like this was a guy putting together a list of things that he could use to troll people.
I think he co wrote the titan graphic novels with abnett?
Maybe, I don't have them. But he wasn't listed anywhere so I would find it hard to believe.
Assuming this is legit, it sounds like a better explanation of the "bubble" rumor. From the description, it seems like there will be multiple versions of "Earth," or whatever you want to call it. Each will only contain a few of the old factions, with the others having not developed/never existed on that world. There will be a world centering on humans, one centering on dwarfs, etc.
Now, that doesn't mean that I like it. Alternate reality stories drive me up the wall. I've seen very good authors screw up alternate reality plots in the past, and GW's staff writers inspire no confidence in me that they can pull it off well.
I peeked in a dusty drawer yesterday, and had a "short" talk with my 5th Edition Dwarfs. I assured them that as long as the rules don't suck, I'd brush them off and give them a spin around the block. I really want to have faith in GW, but it's like they revel in tripping over their own dicks when it comes time to write rules.
-Ages of Sigmar is a new system, not necessarily WFB 8.5 or 9.0
-Story advances after the events in Endtimes.
-All current models will be usable. But it's a new system, so how good/bad something was in 8th isn't an indication of how it will perform in AoS.
-Age of Sigmar is not a boardgame, is not an intro game to something larger. It's the main event.
guh...
why do i feel like i just witnessed the end of something i have been doing for over 20 years...
I hope this new system is good, but i played warhammer because it was a larger scale game...
dan2026 wrote: Not quite sure how the new game is going to stop people playing with the old rules if they choose to.
Well, a big part of the pull of GW's games are their ubiquity. People like investing in a game they feel they will have an easy time finding opponents for (in addition to liking the rules/models/fluff). Playing earlier editions erodes a lot of that opportunity to find gaming partners if you're not in a dedicated group.
dan2026 wrote: Not quite sure how the new game is going to stop people playing with the old rules if they choose to.
Well, a big part of the pull of GW's games are their ubiquity. People like investing in a game they feel they will have an easy time finding opponents for (in addition to liking the rules/models/fluff). Playing earlier editions erodes a lot of that opportunity to find gaming partners if you're not in a dedicated group.
Can't be stressed enough as a selling point.
If you've never tried to get a Brand X game started somewhere, esp. if you are NOT a member of an established gaming group, you cannot appreciate how much value that adds to a game.
I have no problem with GW having smaller game options to encourage people to start WFB. I've played in slow-grow leagues that started at 500 points and went up to 2500, and I've played in massive 10,000 point-plus games.
While the game does function from 500 to 1000 points and above 4000 points... it does not function very well. Below 500? Forget it. The optimal zone for 8th edition is between 2000 and 3000 points.
A game that could be easily scaled from 100 points to 13,000 points would be wonderful.
As far as playing Warmahordes instead of skirmish WFB.... no thanks. I'm not terribly fond of skirmish to begin with; I'm not terribly fond of steampunk to begin with - especially games where EVERYTHING is steampunk, instead of a small number of steampunk units in a small number of factions. I'm not terribly fond of the warmahorde aesthetic, and I'm not buying all the accessories needed to play the bloody game either - unit cards, card sleeves, dry-erase markers, hoops, markers, yadda yadda YADDA yadda yadda. If you find it fun, more power to you. It's not my cup of tea.
I AM terribly fond of using large units maneuvering AS UNITS, instead of as loose mobs.
I'll play WFB skirmish not because I WANT to play WFB skirmish, but to introduce other players to the game, and inspire them to build up to full army size, and get them to WANT to participate in the grandeur of the larger battles...
I remember the Nezumi and were-rats, but I don't remember early D&D having steampunk until Spell Jammer (which wasn't really STEAMpunk) or Eberron (which doesn't really have rat-men).
Who am I forgetting?
Spell Jammer not steampunk? Gallions in space. Another steampunk reference for D&D, though later than Skaven was Planescape.
Ever read "Swords of Lankhmar?", 1968. Not steampunk per se but intelligent rats, under-city...etc.
Geez, I'm old.
So, steam punk and wererats have existed in other places; I'm not sure if anyone else has put them together but it's not like it's difficult to add A to B in any combination. Actually, steampunk Ogres sounds really cool but then I guess they kind of have that ....
As for other, early influences to the creation of Skaven, look into Raxivort, the patron god of xvarts and wererats...his ethos will probably strike a chord with any Skaven fans and was written by Gary Gygax, I want to say I read about it in a Dragon Magazine...waaaaaaay back. (man, I AM old.)
I capped STEAM for a reason Spelljammer wasn't exactly steampunk, since it didn't rely on the overly complex machines with a boiler somewhere. And yeah, I specifically didn't mention Planescape (which at least had steampunkish things in the Modrons) because it came so late in the AD&D life cycle. Good times.
And yeah, I even mentioned were-rats for D&D, and there have been plenty of "ratmen" races (they usually get lumped under 'nezumi'; good ole' kara-tur). But being "ratmen" really isn't the same as being skaven. I'll check into Raxivort though.
dan2026 wrote: Not quite sure how the new game is going to stop people playing with the old rules if they choose to.
Well, a big part of the pull of GW's games are their ubiquity. People like investing in a game they feel they will have an easy time finding opponents for (in addition to liking the rules/models/fluff). Playing earlier editions erodes a lot of that opportunity to find gaming partners if you're not in a dedicated group.
Can't be stressed enough as a selling point.
If you've never tried to get a Brand X game started somewhere, esp. if you are NOT a member of an established gaming group, you cannot appreciate how much value that adds to a game.
Exactly!
I'm surprised at how often this tired ol' chestnut gets dragged out during...times like these.
Maybe a lot of people have really nice gaming groups though?
dan2026 wrote: Not quite sure how the new game is going to stop people playing with the old rules if they choose to.
Well, a big part of the pull of GW's games are their ubiquity. People like investing in a game they feel they will have an easy time finding opponents for (in addition to liking the rules/models/fluff). Playing earlier editions erodes a lot of that opportunity to find gaming partners if you're not in a dedicated group.
Can't be stressed enough as a selling point.
If you've never tried to get a Brand X game started somewhere, esp. if you are NOT a member of an established gaming group, you cannot appreciate how much value that adds to a game.
Exactly!
I'm surprised at how often this tired ol' chestnut gets dragged out during...times like these.
Maybe a lot of people have really nice gaming groups though?
I think people who push Brand X gaming above all else and everything be damned either must have really nice gaming groups (or at least one solid opponent who is flexible in what they play) or are masochists
If GW ever actually actively marketed, their built-in community should be a centerpiece of their message.
"Not only is our stuff cooler than Brand X, you can actually find willing players that you don't have to browbeat into playing"
Boss Salvage wrote: Am I allowed to point out that Warmachine / Hordes has all of those things, plus more stuff SkirmishHammer people keep one-upping? As well as tighter rules than I believe GW capable of creating? Yes, yes, you don' t like the models and/or aesthetic. Rebuttal: 1) Use models you do like? 2) Having seen the art for AoS, the last redux of the Empire and the popularity of Skaven, can you deny that The Dub isn't cashing in on the same steampunk wagon?
Anyway, I'll return to simmering in the background.
- Salvage
I can't speak for those other guys, but I tried Warmachine. Didn't care for it - not the rules, not the aesthetic.. Still have my painted Cyngar starter and a few additional units. Finding it hard to sell them off since I painted them myself. LOL.
There's been a little 'steam punk' feel to WHFB for quite awhile, even before WM existed. Not nearly to the degree that Warmachine, Malifaux, etc, exhibit, of course.
Boss Salvage wrote: Am I allowed to point out that Warmachine / Hordes has all of those things, plus more stuff SkirmishHammer people keep one-upping? As well as tighter rules than I believe GW capable of creating? Yes, yes, you don' t like the models and/or aesthetic. Rebuttal: 1) Use models you do like? 2) Having seen the art for AoS, the last redux of the Empire and the popularity of Skaven, can you deny that The Dub isn't cashing in on the same steampunk wagon?
Anyway, I'll return to simmering in the background.
- Salvage
I can't speak for those other guys, but I tried Warmachine. Didn't care for it - not the rules, not the aesthetic.. Still have my painted Cyngar starter and a few additional units. Finding it hard to sell them off since I painted them myself. LOL.
There's been a little 'steam punk' feel to WHFB for quite awhile, even before WM existed. Not nearly to the degree that Warmachine, Malifaux, etc, exhibit, of course.
Well, no offense but painted models in general tend to not be worth much unless you're a prodigious painter, and even then it tends to be around the cost of a new copy of the kit.
Well, no offense but painted models in general tend to not be worth much unless you're a prodigious painter, and even then it tends to be around the cost of a new copy of the kit.
Oh, no offense taken! I just meant... I am such a -slow- painter that I become quite attached to just about everything I paint.... even if my painting is 'average' at best! I just look at those WM models and think, "I spent XX number of hours painting them... I can't SELL them!". LOL.
I just hope GW pulls something super-cool out of their hat - a system that scales from 20ish models up to the mass-battles we're used to. It's doable, though most folks don't seem to have faith that GW can do it. I just hope they can, because I see value in catering to skirmish-players as well as mass-battles players, and if you can do it at the same time, more power to you!
Yodhrin wrote: You do get that a setting, by its very nature, is static, right? It's not supposed to advance, it's supposed to exist.
This is a meme created by dakka dakka to justify the stagnation of 40k's narrative. You will never find a definition for "setting" in which it's stated that it by design has a static narrative.
mikhaila wrote: -They don't have another version of WFB coming out.
To be fair, if there was a full 9th Ed coming out after this, they wouldn't've told you. They don't tell anyone if they don't have to, at least not until the last possible second.
Yodhrin wrote: You do get that a setting, by its very nature, is static, right? It's not supposed to advance, it's supposed to exist.
That's an arbitrary rule if I ever saw one. Star Wars is not a setting? Star Trek? Middle-Earth?
Come on.
No, they're not settings, they're stories. Look at Star Wars - decades of world building and story telling in the EU wiped out in a heartbeat by diktat of the new owners, because they want to write the story themselves and not have to deal with existing material. You could argue that the "historical" periods of Star Trek are settings, since they're static, but again, when the existing material became inconvenient to the storytelling the company that owns the IP wanted to do; bye-bye existing world.
Static doesn't have to mean "nothing happens, ever", but for something to serve as a setting the things which do happen cannot fundamentally change what it is, and the things that have happened have to stay happened. It's about the scale of events. You cannot literally blow up the world and claim you're still selling a setting, because without any of the things that made up the setting you're just selling a brand-name and a storyline. If people want to play that, more power to them, but it's not for me, and I just can't fathom people who take this "I love Warhammer so much I'm super-excited that they've eliminated all the things that made up Warhammer!" line, it just makes no sense to me personally.
As for the other predictable "hurr hurr GW aren't stealing your books hurr" replies - ya don't say. They won't be making any more of them though will they, which is the point; I was interested in the Warhammer World, chiefly the Old World. I was interested in reading more stories based in that setting, stories about Witch Hunters and Troll Slayers, about Ratmen in the sewers beneath Altdorf, about the Marienburg City Watch, about raiding tombs in Khemri or barrows in the Border Princes, about Kislevites and Estalians and Tileans and Bretonnians, etc etc etc. If Age of Sigmar follows on from the End Times, which the rumours presently suggest it does, all of those hooks, those places and peoples and races, they're all gone, and there won't be any more tales of the Old World or campaign books or graphic novels. Not featuring the world I spent twenty-odd years immersed in, mostly enjoying. Again, if that clean slate is something you find appealing, bon appetit, but don't expect fans of the existing material to be happy about it.
dan2026 wrote: Not quite sure how the new game is going to stop people playing with the old rules if they choose to.
Whenever this comes up, it's usually a UK gamer stating it. I think there's a cultural difference here in that gaming clubs aren't the norm in the US as they appear to be in the UK so if you're going to play a game, it's more than likely a pick-up or scheduled game at a FLGS which would rather you buy the new rules edition to use their space than an older edition that will encourage you to never buy new material or models since they won't exist in that old edition.
If all you're ever going to do is play at home or with a set circle of friends in a club setting, playing old rules is fine but that's not the norm over here.
5th ed 40k 6th ed 40k Space Wolves Codex
Space Marine Codex (2, I didn't buy the one before this 7th ed version)
Eldar Codex
7th ed Lizardmen Army book
8th Ed Lizardmen, WoC and VC Army books.
Vulcan wrote: I'm not terribly fond of steampunk to begin with - especially games where EVERYTHING is steampunk, instead of a small number of steampunk units in a small number of factions.
Well, only a real small portion of Warmachine looks steampunk. None of the Horde faction has anything steampunk, and among the Warmachine side, only a very very small portion of the infantry looks steampunk. Even for the Warjack, most of them just look like random big robot that are not especially steampunk to me.
Vulcan wrote: I'm not terribly fond of the warmahorde aesthetic, and I'm not buying all the accessories needed to play the bloody game either - unit cards, card sleeves, dry-erase markers, hoops, markers, yadda yadda YADDA yadda yadda.
I can understand not liking the aesthetics, but really the accessories needed, if you have everything you need for WFB, are :
- Card sleeves
- Markers
- Templates (WFB need those too, only different ones…)
- One set of faction tokens
There, you now have everything you need. Anything more is a unnecessary extra akin to the cards for WFB or 40k for psychic powers/warlord traits/whatever.
Charles Rampant wrote: That book synopsis is pretty weird, and pretty hard to believe (simply taking a photograph of the map would surely have been enough to prove his point, but obviously nobody has any kind of portable camera on them these days). That said, I can imagine them wanting to break the Empire apart and turn the map into more city states (easier to have a more diverse 'Human' faction that way, especially one that fights against itself). Where do the Elves go, though? Are they on other worlds? Is this basically going to turn into Thor 2, and if so, do Dark Elves get way cool shard space ships?
Lol sarcasm i'm hoping, 90% of people I know how a little something called a cellphone which most modern ones are capable of taking very crisp images. The fact that people supposedly get their hands on this stuff, and don't take images leaves me with the impression they are either brain dead or don't care to be taken seriously. No images, and i'm not gonna believe what someone says. As for the elves, that's anyones guess, besides we don't even know if this rumor is valid or not.
Not everyone who has access to these things has the ability to take a photo. Most print shops will have a no phone policy, for instance. Alternatively, they've been asked not to take any photos to avoid the leak being identified.
That said, it seems to tie in with the previous rumours and has GW's trademark lack of inventiveness with "Sigmarall". It's also overly complex and doesn't make any sense. So I don't see how we can differentiate it from the real deal.
There being a book call Age Of Sigmar fits their form. I really hope it comes out at the same time as the starter set, and it's not the July 4th release on it's own though.
If AoS really is a skirmish game with round bases, but the rules are at least halfway decent, I'm fully ready to rebase (a sufficient part of) my miniatures for it, then get a few WOTR trays so I can still use those minis in Kings of War (where only the footprint of a regiment matters, not the number of minis).
dan2026 wrote: Not quite sure how the new game is going to stop people playing with the old rules if they choose to.
Whenever this comes up, it's usually a UK gamer stating it. I think there's a cultural difference here in that gaming clubs aren't the norm in the US as they appear to be in the UK so if you're going to play a game, it's more than likely a pick-up or scheduled game at a FLGS which would rather you buy the new rules edition to use their space than an older edition that will encourage you to never buy new material or models since they won't exist in that old edition.
If all you're ever going to do is play at home or with a set circle of friends in a club setting, playing old rules is fine but that's not the norm over here.
But after that pickup game don't you often make friends with the person you are playing against? What's the harm in then asking them after a few games if every once in a while you play an old game that you like, and offer to return the favour by playing something they like?
Truly America is a dark and benighted place, bereft of all the wonders of gaming clubs. Woe unto them.
Sigmarhall is not all that bad, as names go; hell, AFAIK, Valhalla literally means 'hall of the fallen' (try pronouncing it like modern german, with V pronounced as F), and was sometimes also known as Odin's hall. The afterlife is not meant to be very innovative, really.
No, the proof is in the fluff pudding for this one. There are a lot of potential benefits from a targetted rewrite of the old setting - allowing Tolkienesque elements to be updated or outright changed to be more original, and for parts of the map that served little purpose before (such as Tilea, for a random example) to be renovated into more useful places. The above excerpt is about as useful as someone skimming through a novel will ever be. (I wonder how you would describe Star Wars, if all that you ever saw was the Blockade Runner scene, Han cutting the Tuan Tuan open, and then the fight in the Emperor's Throne room?) But it is interesting to consider what little it does tell us: an altered but mostly recognizable world map; at least some individual characters could survive across, giving hope for models such as Karl Franz or the Mortarchs; a greater focus on religion, perhaps, with the incarnates-as-gods being likely candidates for supermodels in the future. I mean, if Nagash remains the Death chappy, then we apparently have a deity as a game model already.
I'm very curious about the Dwarves, myself; were they still in the World's Edge mountains? Are they still in decline? Do they still braid toy axes into their beards?!
Charles Rampant wrote:
Sigmarhall is not all that bad, as names go; hell, AFAIK, Valhalla literally means 'hall of the fallen' (try pronouncing it like modern german, with V pronounced as F), and was sometimes also known as Odin's hall. The afterlife is not meant to be very innovative, really.
AHHH! Now I know why that annoying BBC F1 commentator kept calling Vettel Fettel!
His Master's Voice wrote: I like the concept of Mordheim, but it was never going to work as an introduction to WFB on a relevant scale. The gap between model counts and general mechanics (urban comabt vs open battlefield) was just too big.
The game also lived and died when WFB was still going strong and GW had no desire to offer a cheaper alternative.
In general, it takes more than just low model count and the same setting for a game to be an effective gateway drug. The models and rules have to be highly compatible. Take Necromunda and 40k. Pretty much nothing from that awesome game transitions to 40k, unless as a "counts as". Now think about a Kill Team game with Deathwatch, Ork Freebooterz, Gene Cults and an some Eldar Aspect Rave Party with BBQ and Music as your starter forces. Let the top model count go as high as 30 for the Orks. Heck, go 40. Then add relevant entries for those "warbands" in the respective big game codex books, preferably as Troops.
There, you can now light your fireplace with 100$ bills.
Not to contradict you, but I like kill-team as it is quite well. Though if you go for a 40+ cultist group, it becomes ridiculously imballanced against any unprepared foe.
I think kill-team as it is now is a decent gateway drug, except hardly anyone even knows about it. I've talked to quite a number of veteran players with huge armies who reacted along the lines of "huh? never heard of it... sounds kinda interesting... is that new?"
If GW are pulling all their army books, and nobody's buying any current stuff (because they're waiting for AOS) then GW are effectively not making any fantasy sales for 3 weeks. Given that 9th rumours have been going a while, and the community has been reluctant to buy fantasy stuff for longer than 3 weeks, effectively, GW's profits have taken a hit.
What kind of company is this? What kind of company engages in such kamikaze business practices? Fantasy is supposed to be one of GW's premier lines, but they're effectively telling people to buy NOTHING.
The sales boost of spontaneous purchases from last minute unveiling must more than compensate! (Yeah, right...)
That said, if I can do either a Bret or WE force (or maybe even both) for the cost of a few boxes, they'll get money out of me they wouldn't have otherwise had.
Plus, wasn't there a rumour that whatever Age Of Sigmar is will be £25 back a few pages? If that's a GW's rulebook, that's pretty good value too, even if it's small format.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If GW are pulling all their army books, and nobody's buying any current stuff (because they're waiting for AOS) then GW are effectively not making any fantasy sales for 3 weeks. Given that 9th rumours have been going a while, and the community has been reluctant to buy fantasy stuff for longer than 3 weeks, effectively, GW's profits have taken a hit.
When July 11 was announced as the street date for AoS, and we were musing why they'd put such a major release up for preorder on July 4 and towards the middle of the summer, I realized that that's probably the beginning of a new financial quarter for GeeDub. My company's fiscal year begins April 1, thus our second quarter begins three months later - July 1. It seemed likely to me that GW absolutely tanked its Fantasy profits for the April-May-June quarter to begin with a fresh quarter that they could trumpet particularly great (and somewhat manufactured) Fantasy profits thanks to the new edition. Hell, if GW's fiscal year begins July 1, they could write off the abysmal 8E Fantasy sales of the previous year and start afresh with the (hypothetically but also pretty much by default at this point) stellar numbers for the next edition.
That isn't necessarily meant to sound as nefariousness as it does, or at least not in a 'GW = Evil Empire' sort of way. I know my company does the same with product releases and timing around fiscal periods.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If GW are pulling all their army books, and nobody's buying any current stuff (because they're waiting for AOS) then GW are effectively not making any fantasy sales for 3 weeks. Given that 9th rumours have been going a while, and the community has been reluctant to buy fantasy stuff for longer than 3 weeks, effectively, GW's profits have taken a hit.
When July 11 was announced as the street date for AoS, and we were musing why they'd put such a major release up for preorder on July 4 and towards the middle of the summer, I realized that that's probably the beginning of a new financial quarter for GeeDub. My company's fiscal year begins April 1, thus our second quarter begins three months later - July 1. It seemed likely to me that GW absolutely tanked its Fantasy profits for the April-May-June quarter to begin with a fresh quarter that they could trumpet particularly great (and somewhat manufactured) Fantasy profits thanks to the new edition. Hell, if GW's fiscal year begins July 1, they could write off the abysmal 8E Fantasy sales of the previous year and start afresh with the (hypothetically but also pretty much by default at this point) stellar numbers for the next edition.
That isn't necessarily meant to sound as nefariousness as it does, or at least not in a 'GW = Evil Empire' sort of way. I know my company does the same with product releases and timing around fiscal periods.
- Salvage
Good point, but could you imagine Coca Cola deciding not to sell a single can of coke for 4 weeks? Me neither. GW seems to think normal business practice is a bad thing.
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Azreal13 wrote: The sales boost of spontaneous purchases from last minute unveiling must more than compensate! (Yeah, right...)
That said, if I can do either a Bret or WE force (or maybe even both) for the cost of a few boxes, they'll get money out of me they wouldn't have otherwise had.
Plus, wasn't there a rumour that whatever Age Of Sigmar is will be £25 back a few pages? If that's a GW's rulebook, that's pretty good value too, even if it's small format.
£25 would get you a good rulebook from any other company, but GW will be looking to limit/collector's edition the hell out of AOS
As for Brets and WE, if they're in AOS, I'll change my name to Tom Kirby
£25 will no double be the hardback novel explaining the fluff changes.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: What kind of company is this? What kind of company engages in such kamikaze business practices?
I think they assume their customers will continue to indulge their hobby of buying GW mini's from the 40K range in the mean time, to stock up on fantasy stuff before it goes out of production, or hold their money back to spend it all on launch weekend.
Real world economics have never really bothered them before.
What kind of company is this? What kind of company engages in such kamikaze business practices?
GW makes the bulk of their sales on any given product upon it's initial release. Any Fantasy product sales in the last few weeks would have been miniscule at best.
Continuing to sell the product after it's initial release is something they have to do, for us to be able to build complete armies, but isn't the most profitable.
What kind of company is this? What kind of company engages in such kamikaze business practices?
GW makes the bulk of their sales on any given product upon it's initial release. Any Fantasy product sales in the last few weeks would have been miniscule at best.
Continuing to sell the product after it's initial release is something they have to do, for us to be able to build complete armies, but isn't the most profitable.
But selling nothing in the run up to your big release is worse, in every single way, than selling a minuscule amount of other stuff in the run up to your big release.
Imagine if Apple stopped selling all of their other products for the 3 weeks before a new iPhone came out, or Microsoft stopped selling all versions of Windows weeks before releasing their new edition.
Regarding the point that GW are not selling any fantasy kits for a few weeks; I really don't think it's that big of a hit for them. Fantasy came to an end because it needed a re-working to make it more popular and sell more kits. Since their profits from the first half of the year have been pretty decent (Necrons, Eldar, Ad Mech X2, Demon Kin and Imperial Knights all sold really well both online and in my local GW store) I think they can take the absence of their worst selling product for a while.
I do agree that they should have put out more information to create hype/alleviate fears though.
They've allowed time for the stores to return the old product for credit, and make room for new prudct.
It's also helps not to have incompatible old "Warhammer Fantasy" product on the shelf when they are trying to sell their rebooted "Warhammer" product.
Kid "What army do these cool looking Lizardmen go with ?" Neckbeard "None. Those bastards at GW wiped out an entire army, and pissed off thousands of players" Kid "Okay", puts the box down and backs away slowly
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If GW are pulling all their army books, and nobody's buying any current stuff (because they're waiting for AOS) then GW are effectively not making any fantasy sales for 3 weeks. Given that 9th rumours have been going a while, and the community has been reluctant to buy fantasy stuff for longer than 3 weeks, effectively, GW's profits have taken a hit.
When July 11 was announced as the street date for AoS, and we were musing why they'd put such a major release up for preorder on July 4 and towards the middle of the summer, I realized that that's probably the beginning of a new financial quarter for GeeDub. My company's fiscal year begins April 1, thus our second quarter begins three months later - July 1. It seemed likely to me that GW absolutely tanked its Fantasy profits for the April-May-June quarter to begin with a fresh quarter that they could trumpet particularly great (and somewhat manufactured) Fantasy profits thanks to the new edition. Hell, if GW's fiscal year begins July 1, they could write off the abysmal 8E Fantasy sales of the previous year and start afresh with the (hypothetically but also pretty much by default at this point) stellar numbers for the next edition.
That isn't necessarily meant to sound as nefariousness as it does, or at least not in a 'GW = Evil Empire' sort of way. I know my company does the same with product releases and timing around fiscal periods.
- Salvage
GW's fiscal year started on June 1, so AoS won't help towards the last FY. Mid-July is when their report to investors goes out, so they might be hoping to have initial sales numbers for AoS and then SM before that to say, "Although last year was rough, we've started out this FY the strongest we've ever been and we will only go upwards from there!"
Plus, I would have to think that End Times had to sell a lot better than 8E was before it, so they can easily point to that to say that they are moving in the right direction with WHFB (or I guess WAoS if the rumors are true that it will be a new name).
Hive City Dweller wrote: Regarding the point that GW are not selling any fantasy kits for a few weeks; I really don't think it's that big of a hit for them. Fantasy came to an end because it needed a re-working to make it more popular and sell more kits. Since their profits from the first half of the year have been pretty decent (Necrons, Eldar, Ad Mech X2, Demon Kin and Imperial Knights all sold really well both online and in my local GW store) I think they can take the absence of their worst selling product for a while.
I do agree that they should have put out more information to create hype/alleviate fears though.
I'd hazard a guess that's it's also no coincidence that this new whatever is directly preceeded by an (arguably unnecessary/too soon) Space Marine release. That alone should put their takings for the period well above average.
Hive City Dweller wrote: Regarding the point that GW are not selling any fantasy kits for a few weeks; I really don't think it's that big of a hit for them. Fantasy came to an end because it needed a re-working to make it more popular and sell more kits. Since their profits from the first half of the year have been pretty decent (Necrons, Eldar, Ad Mech X2, Demon Kin and Imperial Knights all sold really well both online and in my local GW store) I think they can take the absence of their worst selling product for a while.
I do agree that they should have put out more information to create hype/alleviate fears though.
The problem is, the sales freeze of WHFB hasn't been a few weeks. Almost everyone I know and everyone I follow on the internet (via Twitter, forums and podcasts) stopped buying WHFB models and everything when Thanquol came out (and the Lizards peaced out) and then when the final pages of Archaon leaked. That is one third of a year's worth of sales that they threw out by not supplying some sort of information. If they would have been somewhat more forthcoming, saying it was a redesign with Ravening Hordes, ala 6th Ed, and that you'll still be able to play with all of your old toys, people would have kept buying knowing they were building towards something instead of nothing.
You are completely correct in saying they needed to put out more information earlier on to keep those sales moving, or at least keep them from going dormant.
Some good points. For those defending GW's actions, here's what Kilkrazy had to say about it on the GW financial report discussion thread. I hope he forgives me for pinching his quote
"If this six month report is negative, it will be the fifth in a series of negative six month reports. In other words, two and a half years of falling sales."
So, a company with falling sales is obviously in a healthy position to write off 3 weeks, possibly more, of sales of one of its premier products?
Again, I say this: what kind of kamikaze business practices are GW engaging in? And who taught them this!!
£25 would get you a good rulebook from any other company, but GW will be looking to limit/collector's edition the hell out of AOS
Not necessarily: the rulebook for Infinity is fifty quid. Which I find hard to stomach for a skirmish game, but it seems like a good quality product. The 25 quid rulebooks that you get now are primarily in the same scale as, say, the D&D Core Book: A4, hardback, lotsa colour, roughly 256 pages. I suspect that GW will do the same kind of rulebook as 40k 7th edition, which, well, would be easier to carry around than the 8th edition hardback at least.
The best rulebooks they do are the mid-size hardback ones - you know, the ribbon bound notebook size? I wish they just sold them at launch, I far prefer that size.
What kind of company is this? What kind of company engages in such kamikaze business practices?
GW makes the bulk of their sales on any given product upon it's initial release. Any Fantasy product sales in the last few weeks would have been miniscule at best.
Continuing to sell the product after it's initial release is something they have to do, for us to be able to build complete armies, but isn't the most profitable.
But selling nothing in the run up to your big release is worse, in every single way, than selling a minuscule amount of other stuff in the run up to your big release.
Imagine if Apple stopped selling all of their other products for the 3 weeks before a new iPhone came out, or Microsoft stopped selling all versions of Windows weeks before releasing their new edition.
It's just pure idiocy.
To be fair, not many people buy an iDevice 3 weeks before replacement apart from when it's discounted, because they usually sell/support 2 generations at a time.
Microsoft usually offer a free upgrade if you buy an edition just before a new one too.
Fantasy was barely selling by that point anyway. Would anyone think it crazy if they just dropped LOTR for instance?
£25 would get you a good rulebook from any other company, but GW will be looking to limit/collector's edition the hell out of AOS
Not necessarily: the rulebook for Infinity is fifty quid. Which I find hard to stomach for a skirmish game, but it seems like a good quality product. The 25 quid rulebooks that you get now are primarily in the same scale as, say, the D&D Core Book: A4, hardback, lotsa colour, roughly 256 pages. I suspect that GW will do the same kind of rulebook as 40k 7th edition, which, well, would be easier to carry around than the 8th edition hardback at least.
The best rulebooks they do are the mid-size hardback ones - you know, the ribbon bound notebook size? I wish they just sold them at launch, I far prefer that size.
This is the digital age. Nobody should be paying £25 for a standard rulebook. Yes, you should be charged more for a collector's edition, but the paper price and digital price should have a big difference between them.
HobbyBox wrote: GW's fiscal year started on June 1, so AoS won't help towards the last FY. Mid-July is when their report to investors goes out, so they might be hoping to have initial sales numbers for AoS and then SM before that to say, "Although last year was rough, we've started out this FY the strongest we've ever been and we will only go upwards from there!"
Plus, I would have to think that End Times had to sell a lot better than 8E was before it, so they can easily point to that to say that they are moving in the right direction with WHFB (or I guess WAoS if the rumors are true that it will be a new name).
Thanks for the date, I did figure GW's fiscal year was a known thing. And point on the End Times books - I bought zero of them myself (as I don't care for campaign books) and forgot how popular they were over those crazy few months
£25 would get you a good rulebook from any other company, but GW will be looking to limit/collector's edition the hell out of AOS
Not necessarily: the rulebook for Infinity is fifty quid. Which I find hard to stomach for a skirmish game, but it seems like a good quality product. The 25 quid rulebooks that you get now are primarily in the same scale as, say, the D&D Core Book: A4, hardback, lotsa colour, roughly 256 pages. I suspect that GW will do the same kind of rulebook as 40k 7th edition, which, well, would be easier to carry around than the 8th edition hardback at least.
The best rulebooks they do are the mid-size hardback ones - you know, the ribbon bound notebook size? I wish they just sold them at launch, I far prefer that size.
This is the digital age. Nobody should be paying £25 for a standard rulebook. Yes, you should be charged more for a collector's edition, but the paper price and digital price should have a big difference between them.
Not to mention CB make Infonity's rules available for free, the book is an entirely optional purchase, and as substantial as anything GW produce for a similar price.
My first fantasy purchases in 3 years (since our local scene dried up for RTT's) was the End Times books which I love. I'm looking forward to Ages of Sigmar. Granted it's tempered with nervousness but I have hopes...
That said, if I can do either a Bret or WE force (or maybe even both) for the cost of a few boxes, they'll get money out of me they wouldn't have otherwise had.
Plus, wasn't there a rumour that whatever Age Of Sigmar is will be £25 back a few pages? If that's a GW's rulebook, that's pretty good value too, even if it's small format.
I'm beginning to lean more and more in this direction. I tried to pick WHFB once with IOB (whatever edition that was) but was off put by the sheer number of models I had to prepare. Of course it didn't help that I (1) do not play with unpainted models and (2) picked Skaven.
If GW produces something that at least functions at a smaller model count, it will be likely that they get a few dollars of mine that they otherwise would not have.
Now if they would just give me a clue as to what they planned to sell me....
£25 would get you a good rulebook from any other company, but GW will be looking to limit/collector's edition the hell out of AOS
Not necessarily: the rulebook for Infinity is fifty quid. Which I find hard to stomach for a skirmish game, but it seems like a good quality product. The 25 quid rulebooks that you get now are primarily in the same scale as, say, the D&D Core Book: A4, hardback, lotsa colour, roughly 256 pages. I suspect that GW will do the same kind of rulebook as 40k 7th edition, which, well, would be easier to carry around than the 8th edition hardback at least.
The best rulebooks they do are the mid-size hardback ones - you know, the ribbon bound notebook size? I wish they just sold them at launch, I far prefer that size.
This is the digital age. Nobody should be paying £25 for a standard rulebook. Yes, you should be charged more for a collector's edition, but the paper price and digital price should have a big difference between them.
Not to mention CB make Infonity's rules available for free, the book is an entirely optional purchase, and as substantial as anything GW produce for a similar price.
The Judge Dredd rulebook is well worth the money. Imagine my surprise to see rules, scenarios, AND army lists in in one volume. The shock nearly made me fall over
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Some good points. For those defending GW's actions, here's what Kilkrazy had to say about it on the GW financial report discussion thread. I hope he forgives me for pinching his quote
"If this six month report is negative, it will be the fifth in a series of negative six month reports. In other words, two and a half years of falling sales."
So, a company with falling sales is obviously in a healthy position to write off 3 weeks, possibly more, of sales of one of its premier products?
Again, I say this: what kind of kamikaze business practices are GW engaging in? And who taught them this!!
That's just it though; it really wasn't their premier product. If they stopped making and marketing 40K for 3 months that would be kamikaze finances, but as it stands they are formally ending their no longer well selling line of fantasy products to re-invent it into something that it workable and profitable. Granted they are not masters of marketing and finance, but WHFB needed new life breathed into it.
Does this suck for the current players who are enjoying 8th? Yes. Could this generate enough excitement and curiosity to get a few 40K players to buy into a fantasy skirmish game? It seems like a risk worth taking.
I know for me what prevented me from really getting into fantasy was the insane model count, price point and ranked square bases. If they make a workable skirmish game that works with a few troops an elite choice and a wizard or two, I'd be right into it as a side project apart from my 40K army. My friends also share this view point. So if you can sell the modesl you already have to players who would play small/medium sized skirmish games with them with a simple base change, why on earth would you not?
Maybe instead of making Fantasy a skirmish game, another solution to the 'Fantasy requires too many models' issue is to provide dedicated escalation league rules? My biggest two armies (Skaven, Daemons) were painted over just such slow grow leagues, and I enjoyed my smaller point games immensely, without needing to change the core rules of the game to make it work.
To use another WM/H parallel, Journeyman leagues seem to be great ways to introduce new players into the hobby, particularly when they have bonuses built in for painting ... And those don't change the core rules of the game either. Though both Fantasy escalation leagues and Journeyman leagues require community-level organization or support that GW isn't interested in (while PP conversely is). GW, however, is quite good at decreeing things, so an Official Escalation League proclamation might be enough, even without some massive shift in game scale or clever building in of scalability.
Not gonna lie. Part of me also wants fantasy to be awesome because it'll slow down the release pace of 40k. Seriously, 6 codexes in like 10 weeks is nuts...
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Some good points. For those defending GW's actions, here's what Kilkrazy had to say about it on the GW financial report discussion thread. I hope he forgives me for pinching his quote
"If this six month report is negative, it will be the fifth in a series of negative six month reports. In other words, two and a half years of falling sales."
So, a company with falling sales is obviously in a healthy position to write off 3 weeks, possibly more, of sales of one of its premier products?
Again, I say this: what kind of kamikaze business practices are GW engaging in? And who taught them this!!
That's just it though; it really wasn't their premier product. If they stopped making and marketing 40K for 3 months that would be kamikaze finances, but as it stands they are formally ending their no longer well selling line of fantasy products to re-invent it into something that it workable and profitable. Granted they are not masters of marketing and finance, but WHFB needed new life breathed into it.
Does this suck for the current players who are enjoying 8th? Yes. Could this generate enough excitement and curiosity to get a few 40K players to buy into a fantasy skirmish game? It seems like a risk worth taking.
I know for me what prevented me from really getting into fantasy was the insane model count, price point and ranked square bases. If they make a workable skirmish game that works with a few troops an elite choice and a wizard or two, I'd be right into it as a side project apart from my 40K army. My friends also share this view point. So if you can sell the modesl you already have to players who would play small/medium sized skirmish games with them with a simple base change, why on earth would you not?
Fantasy is GW's premier product - it was their flagship before 40k appeared on the scene. Fantasy's problems are entirely self-inflicted by GW. They wanted more models on the table = more money, so they designed their 8th edition to reflect this, and cut the costs of basic troops, forcing people to take higher model counts.
Mordheim was a great fantasy skirmish game, but they killed it off. GW only have themselves to blame for Fantasy's demise.
And from what other people are saying, 40k could be doing much better, as well.
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Hulksmash wrote: Not gonna lie. Part of me also wants fantasy to be awesome because it'll slow down the release pace of 40k. Seriously, 6 codexes in like 10 weeks is nuts...
Tell-tale sign of a company milking it for all its worth.
Aye.. if folks haven't recognized the pattern GW seems to have been sharing with TSR in its death throws previous to this year.. I am guessing many more folks, especially those who remember that fall.. are seeing it clearly now.
Hell the only thing that worries me about the reboot was the last company to try that with a system I was heavily invested in.. was White Wolf and the World of Darkness. *shudder*
On saying that.. I still have hope though.. I am just prepared for the worst.
Lots and lots of differences in the demise of TSR and where GW is today. Although their might be some similarities we also don't know about yet.
I'd love to know certain things about Black Libraries book distribution and it's liabilities. That cause a major hit to TSR when they shot themselves in the foot by announcing self distribution of paperbacks and triggering millions of dollars of returns of unlold books.
And on WFB sales: Mine are totally unaffected by the announcement of AOS. My stores have barely sold WFB since the 2nd yer of 8th. Maybe 2% of 40k sales. So not selling anything is normal. Endtimes was actually a huge bump over the usual nothing.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If GW are pulling all their army books, and nobody's buying any current stuff (because they're waiting for AOS) then GW are effectively not making any fantasy sales for 3 weeks. Given that 9th rumours have been going a while, and the community has been reluctant to buy fantasy stuff for longer than 3 weeks, effectively, GW's profits have taken a hit.
What kind of company is this? What kind of company engages in such kamikaze business practices? Fantasy is supposed to be one of GW's premier lines, but they're effectively telling people to buy NOTHING.
I shake my head at the sheer folly of all this.
It's not a all different from a model changeover at any car manufacturer. They stop production of the current model, take a few weeks to retool the line, and then slowly ramp up the new model. Dealers can go slack for weeks at a time during this period, as they clear out the old in preparation for the new. If it is a niche model that sells low volumes, it's not an issue.
WFB isn't a "premier" line - it's a sideline to what they really sell: 40k. Been like this for at least a decade. GW could have pulled the WFB line months ago, and the dead period wouldn't hurt them in the slightest. It's not like they'll stop selling models, paint, supplies, terrain, or (most importantly) 40k. And GW overall profits are probably quite good. They spend a lot of effort building up the 40k things and all of those Codices, and this year, they're cashing in with a Codex every month. The Space Marine Codex alone will cover the gap for Fantasy, given that Space Marines outsell all Fantasy *combined*.
I shake my head that you don't understand changeovers.
mikhaila wrote: Lots and lots of differences in the demise of TSR and where GW is today. Although their might be some similarities we also don't know about yet.
I'd love to know certain things about Black Libraries book distribution and it's liabilities. That cause a major hit to TSR when they shot themselves in the foot by announcing self distribution of paperbacks and triggering millions of dollars of returns of unlold books.
And on WFB sales: Mine are totally unaffected by the announcement of AOS. My stores have barely sold WFB since the 2nd yer of 8th. Maybe 2% of 40k sales. So not selling anything is normal. Endtimes was actually a huge bump over the usual nothing.
Ah, didn't realize it was the publishing issues that was a bitter blow, I tended to follow the stories of books never ,leaving the warehouse, too many printed etc.. I suppose it that regard GW aren't making the same mistake, rather going down the ultra limited route and leaving money on the table.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If GW are pulling all their army books, and nobody's buying any current stuff (because they're waiting for AOS) then GW are effectively not making any fantasy sales for 3 weeks. Given that 9th rumours have been going a while, and the community has been reluctant to buy fantasy stuff for longer than 3 weeks, effectively, GW's profits have taken a hit.
What kind of company is this? What kind of company engages in such kamikaze business practices? Fantasy is supposed to be one of GW's premier lines, but they're effectively telling people to buy NOTHING.
I shake my head at the sheer folly of all this.
It's not a all different from a model changeover at any car manufacturer. They stop production of the current model, take a few weeks to retool the line, and then slowly ramp up the new model. Dealers can go slack for weeks at a time during this period, as they clear out the old in preparation for the new. If it is a niche model that sells low volumes, it's not an issue.
WFB isn't a "premier" line - it's a sideline to what they really sell: 40k. Been like this for at least a decade. GW could have pulled the WFB line months ago, and the dead period wouldn't hurt them in the slightest. It's not like they'll stop selling models, paint, supplies, terrain, or (most importantly) 40k. And GW overall profits are probably quite good. They spend a lot of effort building up the 40k things and all of those Codices, and this year, they're cashing in with a Codex every month. The Space Marine Codex alone will cover the gap for Fantasy, given that Space Marines outsell all Fantasy *combined*.
I shake my head that you don't understand changeovers.
That maybe, but for example, if Ford were bringing out a new car on 4th July, do you think they'd keep images or product info under wraps until the last minute? Hell no! They'd be shouting about it from the mountains for weeks on end. We would know what this new Ford looks like long before July 4th. That's the difference I'm trying to highlight between 'normal' companies and GW.
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mikhaila wrote: Lots and lots of differences in the demise of TSR and where GW is today. Although their might be some similarities we also don't know about yet.
I'd love to know certain things about Black Libraries book distribution and it's liabilities. That cause a major hit to TSR when they shot themselves in the foot by announcing self distribution of paperbacks and triggering millions of dollars of returns of unlold books.
And on WFB sales: Mine are totally unaffected by the announcement of AOS. My stores have barely sold WFB since the 2nd yer of 8th. Maybe 2% of 40k sales. So not selling anything is normal. Endtimes was actually a huge bump over the usual nothing.
I suspect that you already know more about BL's distribution and liabilities than you think you know. For example, a lot of their stuff is digital (no worries about stock collecting dust or print runs) and their limited stuff doesn't have big print runs, so not much of a hit to take if things go wrong.
Boss Salvage wrote:particularly when they have bonuses built in for painting
- Salvage
Wait, there are by-the-rulebook bonuses for painted models over unpainted?
For Journeyman Leagues, yes, you have point bonuses for painted models.
Spoiler:
Players earn hobby points for painting models in the faction
they are playing within the league. These models do not have
to be used at any time during a league game. For a painted
model to score hobby points, it must meet the requirements
listed in the Painting Requirements section. Hobby points
are awarded only for models painted during the course of
this league. Models painted prior to the start of the league do
not count. Use the list below to determine how many hobby
points a given model/unit is worth.
• Warcasters, warlocks, warbeasts, warjacks, and solos:
3 points for large-based models, 2 points for mediumbased
models, and 1 point for small-based models
• Battle engines: 5 points
• Colossals and gargantuans: 7 points
• Units of two models: 2 points
• Units of three to six models: 3 points
• Units of seven or more models: 4 points
• Units of only medium-based models: 1 additional point
• Units of only large-based models: 2 additional points
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: If GW are pulling all their army books, and nobody's buying any current stuff (because they're waiting for AOS) then GW are effectively not making any fantasy sales for 3 weeks. Given that 9th rumours have been going a while, and the community has been reluctant to buy fantasy stuff for longer than 3 weeks, effectively, GW's profits have taken a hit.
What kind of company is this? What kind of company engages in such kamikaze business practices? Fantasy is supposed to be one of GW's premier lines, but they're effectively telling people to buy NOTHING.
I shake my head at the sheer folly of all this.
It's not a all different from a model changeover at any car manufacturer. They stop production of the current model, take a few weeks to retool the line, and then slowly ramp up the new model. Dealers can go slack for weeks at a time during this period, as they clear out the old in preparation for the new. If it is a niche model that sells low volumes, it's not an issue.
WFB isn't a "premier" line - it's a sideline to what they really sell: 40k. Been like this for at least a decade. GW could have pulled the WFB line months ago, and the dead period wouldn't hurt them in the slightest. It's not like they'll stop selling models, paint, supplies, terrain, or (most importantly) 40k. And GW overall profits are probably quite good. They spend a lot of effort building up the 40k things and all of those Codices, and this year, they're cashing in with a Codex every month. The Space Marine Codex alone will cover the gap for Fantasy, given that Space Marines outsell all Fantasy *combined*.
I shake my head that you don't understand changeovers.
That maybe, but for example, if Ford were bringing out a new car on 4th July, do you think they'd keep images or product info under wraps until the last minute? Hell no! They'd be shouting about it from the mountains for weeks on end. We would know what this new Ford looks like long before July 4th. That's the difference I'm trying to highlight between 'normal' companies and GW.
Not everybody follows automotive news. A lot of car buyers go once every several years, shop a few weekends, and just buy whatever happens to be on the lot - it doesn't matter that much whether the car is new or old or that there's a changeover.
For example, are you even aware that there's a new Chevy Volt coming out later this year? Tell me how the new Volt is going to be different from the old one. Do you know what the sales history is for the Volt? How about availability? And launch/release? Go on, enlighten me.
One things for sure, with a new model on the horizon the dealers wouldn't be selling the old model at full price and denying all knowledge of the new one, even if asked directly by a customer.
As I've asked twice before: what is AOS? A new anti-dandruff shampoo? I don't know because GW won't tell us!
If a business tells people for months about a new product, but nobody buys it, at least the business can say that it didn't sell through lack of advertising.
GW's approach is strange. They're selling us something in July. Logically, we can deduce it will be war-games related, but in what context? New paints? A book? miniatures?
If it is a new version of 9th is it skirmish? Full-blown? Mass multiplayer, 30,000 points a side?
I compare that with FOW's Vietnam stuff. I got info, pics, release date, the whole 9 yards.
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Azreal13 wrote: One things for sure, with a new model on the horizon the dealers wouldn't be selling the old model at full price and denying all knowledge of the new one, even if asked directly by a customer.
Hive City Dweller wrote: Regarding the point that GW are not selling any fantasy kits for a few weeks; I really don't think it's that big of a hit for them. Fantasy came to an end because it needed a re-working to make it more popular and sell more kits. Since their profits from the first half of the year have been pretty decent (Necrons, Eldar, Ad Mech X2, Demon Kin and Imperial Knights all sold really well both online and in my local GW store) I think they can take the absence of their worst selling product for a while.
I do agree that they should have put out more information to create hype/alleviate fears though.
The problem is, the sales freeze of WHFB hasn't been a few weeks. Almost everyone I know and everyone I follow on the internet (via Twitter, forums and podcasts) stopped buying WHFB models and everything when Thanquol came out (and the Lizards peaced out) and then when the final pages of Archaon leaked. That is one third of a year's worth of sales that they threw out by not supplying some sort of information. If they would have been somewhat more forthcoming, saying it was a redesign with Ravening Hordes, ala 6th Ed, and that you'll still be able to play with all of your old toys, people would have kept buying knowing they were building towards something instead of nothing.
You are completely correct in saying they needed to put out more information earlier on to keep those sales moving, or at least keep them from going dormant.
I have seen people scarfing up IOB sets and related for fear that GW won't have those things around any more.
To our FLGS's credite, they actively ask people if they're aware that a new edition/whatever is coming out and those buyers have been saying they wanted to scoop up stuff before it becomes OOP, in their belief.
There's a good chance these buyers were not planning on picking up IOB/other stuff at this time but have speculatively bought in hoping to be smarter than the system.
Boss Salvage wrote:particularly when they have bonuses built in for painting
- Salvage
Wait, there are by-the-rulebook bonuses for painted models over unpainted?
For Journeyman Leagues, yes, you have point bonuses for painted models.
Spoiler:
Players earn hobby points for painting models in the faction
they are playing within the league. These models do not have
to be used at any time during a league game. For a painted
model to score hobby points, it must meet the requirements
listed in the Painting Requirements section. Hobby points
are awarded only for models painted during the course of
this league. Models painted prior to the start of the league do
not count. Use the list below to determine how many hobby
points a given model/unit is worth.
• Warcasters, warlocks, warbeasts, warjacks, and solos:
3 points for large-based models, 2 points for mediumbased
models, and 1 point for small-based models
• Battle engines: 5 points
• Colossals and gargantuans: 7 points
• Units of two models: 2 points
• Units of three to six models: 3 points
• Units of seven or more models: 4 points
• Units of only medium-based models: 1 additional point
• Units of only large-based models: 2 additional points
Oooooh okay. I misunderstood. I thought he meant like, painted models have better in-game stats than unpainted models.
I think all the silence around this release from GW is brilliant the amount of speculation everywhere (in wargaming context) on what's next for fantasy is considerable it seems from friend and foe/friend of the game. Granted once the add to cart button appears it would be weird to have no info but until around that time this approach has been amusing to follow.
PalmerC wrote: I think all the silence around this release from GW is brilliant the amount of speculation everywhere (in wargaming context) on what's next for fantasy is considerable it seems from friend and foe/friend of the game. Granted once the add to cart button appears it would be weird to have no info but until around that time this approach has been amusing to follow.
Its probably not very amusing if you actually care about WFB though... Projects halted, no new projects, no shopping etc are some of the actual consequences of this silence. I would be more amused if GW were transparent and actually supplied some news that allowed me to plan project or convert my WFB projects. As it stands is a sterile ground for any fun.
NAVARRO wrote: Its probably not very amusing if you actually care about WFB though... Projects halted, no new projects, no shopping etc are some of the actual consequences of this silence. I would be more amused if GW were transparent and actually supplied some news that allowed me to plan project or convert my WFB projects. As it stands is a sterile ground for any fun.
QFT. The bulk of my gaming club has essentially been paralyzed when it comes to all gaming or hobbying, while the tournament crew attend the last 8E events with their current armies and I dither away building skirmish squads for games I don't really play ...
GW has been doing the short runways ever since CHS came in and (legally) ate their lunch. This isn't new practice.
At this point, GW should be looked at as point in time, of X things being available. If you want X, great, do it and work on it. If not, don't sweat it. Obsessing over what may happen isn't that healthy, anyways.
At this point, GW should be looked at as point in time, of X things being available. If you want X, great, do it and work on it. If not, don't sweat it.
WFB projects are never detached from a future perspective, armies are big and laborious to flesh out ( Years to make one), your remark makes little to no sense.
Azreal13 wrote: One things for sure, with a new model on the horizon the dealers wouldn't be selling the old model at full price and denying all knowledge of the new one, even if asked directly by a customer.
Yup, GW prefer to be the Louis Vuitton of wargaming and would rather destroy their old stock over selling it off.
It's like they're allergic to money or something. I'd snap up all the old whfb books if they sold them off for a fiver apiece or thereabouts.
At this point, GW should be looked at as point in time, of X things being available. If you want X, great, do it and work on it. If not, don't sweat it.
WFB projects are never detached from a future perspective, armies are big and laborious to flesh out ( Years to make one), your remark makes little to no sense.
They darn well should be. GW player should be a lot more Zen Buddhist about the game, rather than Evangelical Christian about it. GW is in the now, in the moment; GW is not about preparing for some far-off rapture. Simply focus on what's current, and go from there. Having expectations and obsessing over them is what gets you in trouble.
A standard 2,000 points army doesn't take years to get to a basic, playable state. If you want to play an army, you spend a few months and knock one out, based on the current book. Simple as that.
That said, if you end up with a large army of >2,000 points, then yes, that can take years. But it should be organic like the growth of a tree. Or, if you want to build something huge, a monument of sorts, that's also fine. But even a monument only exists in the moment, and requires ongoing maintenance.
In the context of how GW works, and your complete inability to influence it, your inability to simply accept GW is what makes zero sense.
JohnHwangDD wrote: GW has been doing the short runways ever since CHS came in and (legally) ate their lunch. This isn't new practice.
At this point, GW should be looked at as point in time, of X things being available. If you want X, great, do it and work on it. If not, don't sweat it. Obsessing over what may happen isn't that healthy, anyways.
That might be easier said then done in all honesty. Materials are being discontinued and replaced at a break neck pace.
The difference for me now is that the army book/codex is the last thing I buy for an army when it used to be the first.
I would hate to buy a book, spend my time putting together an army and then to find the book was being replaced just as I was about to bring them to the table.
Of course that could happen previously if you happened to buy an army book a few months before the replacement. But the rapid recycle rate they have now will make these situations much more frequent.
It's Wood Elf players I feel sorry for. You wait years for a book, get one, and then a few months later, a new version of fantasy throws everything out the window.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: It's Wood Elf players I feel sorry for. You wait years for a book, get one, and then a few months later, a new version of fantasy throws everything out the window.
Its fine, I quit back in 7th when the Beastmen book came out and I got tabled turn 1.
Was going to pick up some of the recent Welfs stuff, but the new Eternal Guard models are no where near as nice as the metals.
JohnHwangDD wrote: GW has been doing the short runways ever since CHS came in and (legally) ate their lunch. This isn't new practice.
At this point, GW should be looked at as point in time, of X things being available. If you want X, great, do it and work on it. If not, don't sweat it. Obsessing over what may happen isn't that healthy, anyways.
That might be easier said then done in all honesty. Materials are being discontinued and replaced at a break neck pace.
Not really. An game edition lasts for multiple years. WFB has been static for ages. Codices last for years. Codices and Army Books last for years, and they aren't that expensive, so it's not a money thing. The models never really go away. It's more a question of whether you want to bother buying new rule books that aren't necessarily "better" and dealing with the changes.
The bigger change is the rapid expansion of the 40k universe, with so many armies getting updated Codices within the first year of new edition release. Following WFB 9E "AOS", with its Ravening Hordes lists, we can expect to see a flood of new 9E Army Books by the end of the year. This is all good stuff.
They darn well should be. GW player should be a lot more Zen Buddhist about the game, rather than Evangelical Christian about it. GW is in the now, in the moment; GW is not about preparing for some far-off rapture. Simply focus on what's current, and go from there. Having expectations and obsessing over them is what gets you in trouble.
A standard 2,000 points army doesn't take years to get to a basic, playable state. If you want to play an army, you spend a few months and knock one out, based on the current book. Simple as that.
That said, if you end up with a large army of >2,000 points, then yes, that can take years. But it should be organic like the growth of a tree. Or, if you want to build something huge, a monument of sorts, that's also fine. But even a monument only exists in the moment, and requires ongoing maintenance.
In the context of how GW works, and your complete inability to influence it, your inability to simply accept GW is what makes zero sense.
I am not sure how to parse this. On the one hand, saying "The way GW operates, doing any planning ahead is foolish. Build whatever you want and don't expect it to work for any period in the future. If you don't like that, you need to use a different company for rules and maybe models," that makes perfect sense to me. GW's pace and scope of change, and random change at that, is enough to keep me out of their games due to the large amount of investment in time and money a WHFB army takes. I certainly haven't updated mine in a long time, and I suspect many other people are there too.
On the other hand, claiming that "a few months" is not a large amount of time to get an army ready to play, an amount of time large enough to be worrisome to waste in the face of effectively regime change from GW, that I can't quite understand. It is quite possible to start an WHFB, spend 2-4 months getting it painted and together, only to find that it is entirely unworkable due to a rules change, or just miserable to play. That's a really, really high cost of entry, even beyond the dollar cost, with a fairly high possibility that the cost will get you nothing within a few months. Unless you are the sort of person that loves painting models, many very similar, just for the joy of painting models, that's a pretty big thing to just write off. Most people probably can expect to spend a lot of time and effort preparing an army that may never be fun to game with.
Unless your recommendation is then "So quit GW entirely", I don't understand what your argument is.
At this point, GW should be looked at as point in time, of X things being available. If you want X, great, do it and work on it. If not, don't sweat it.
WFB projects are never detached from a future perspective, armies are big and laborious to flesh out ( Years to make one), your remark makes little to no sense.
They darn well should be. GW player should be a lot more Zen Buddhist about the game, rather than Evangelical Christian about it. GW is in the now, in the moment; GW is not about preparing for some far-off rapture. Simply focus on what's current, and go from there. Having expectations and obsessing over them is what gets you in trouble.
A standard 2,000 points army doesn't take years to get to a basic, playable state. If you want to play an army, you spend a few months and knock one out, based on the current book. Simple as that.
That said, if you end up with a large army of >2,000 points, then yes, that can take years. But it should be organic like the growth of a tree. Or, if you want to build something huge, a monument of sorts, that's also fine. But even a monument only exists in the moment, and requires ongoing maintenance.
In the context of how GW works, and your complete inability to influence it, your inability to simply accept GW is what makes zero sense.
Thats one way to look at it if you drink into the new GW religion... or you could look into the past 20+ years of WFB and at least expect some continuity to your enjoyment. Again according to you it takes a few months to paint hundreds of minis (not for me) guess what in 3 months there is no more WFB as we know it, so your remark about living the present and care less about the future of WFB is still not very accurate. Theres also a considerable difference betweent being obsessed about something and making an INFORMED decision. Thats what we are talking about here, people want to carry on and have fun with WFB and they can only do that if they have enough data.
Just because GW wants you to not use your brains, we, according to your logic should keep on buying without any mental activity, I mean thats what you mean about ability to adjust into GW right?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: It's Wood Elf players I feel sorry for. You wait years for a book, get one, and then a few months later, a new version of fantasy throws everything out the window.
I really feel sorry for Bretonnian players. After the WE release, there was a teaser video showing a Bretonnian peasant with something flying overhead. Then, there was rumors abound that they were finally getting a book after 10 years and countless editions of waiting. That was all followed up by 7 weeks of 40K releases and then Nagash, which blows up their most favorite land mark. Then, with each ET book, they just keep twisting the knife - killing Louen in Glottkin and then saying that the Lady in the Lake was really just an Elvish goddess that was misleading them in Archaon.
And on WFB sales: Mine are totally unaffected by the announcement of AOS. My stores have barely sold WFB since the 2nd yer of 8th. Maybe 2% of 40k sales. So not selling anything is normal. Endtimes was actually a huge bump over the usual nothing.
To be fair, that may be because customers can't buy the same amount of product in stores. It seems like a lot more WFB went web store only than 40k. If I wanted to start WFB now (and not buy used models) I'd have to order on the internet. Many armies simply can't be completed by only purchasing in a B&M store.
I really feel sorry for Bretonnian players. After the WE release, there was a teaser video showing a Bretonnian peasant with something flying overhead. Then, there was rumors abound that they were finally getting a book after 10 years and countless editions of waiting. That was all followed up by 7 weeks of 40K releases and then Nagash, which blows up their most favorite land mark. Then, with each ET book, they just keep twisting the knife - killing Louen in Glottkin and then saying that the Lady in the Lake was really just an Elvish goddess that was misleading them in Archaon.
I have a full Brett army that sees very little game time right now. I hope for the best with whatever WFB is turning into, but it seems the writing is on the wall for us Brett players.
Right now, we know that WFB is changing over, but the last time GW did this, armies were still playable.
GW is a very different company now than they were when the last major change happened with WFB. Rick, Andy, Alessio, and the others involved in the last major changes to 40k and WFB are all gone. I don't think it makes sense to use what happened 15+ years ago as an indicator of what is happening now.
That being said, it is too early to panic. Let's see what AoS is (and isn't) and go from there. But thinking this will be another ravening hordes seems beyond optimistic.
I'm not panicking at all. I am actually quite interested and excited to see how this all shakes out. For me personally, I wanted something a bit different than what 8th Ed became (especially with ET), especially if they scale it back a bit.
Back when I was really into GW, I knocked out multiple 2,000 point armies in a matter of months (each). I would finish a tabletop quality unit of a dozen-ish minis a week, building and painting a couple hours a night watching TV.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. I've sat out of WFB for years, not a big deal.
However, if you do want to play, when the new edition hits, the near Army Book / Codex is released, buy it and built to it.
Or, have a mass of stuff, and simply play out of the pile you own.
Right now, we know that WFB is changing over, but the last time GW did this, armies were still playable.
You guys are blowing things way out of proportion.
To follow your analogy... We can handle all the heat, after all we have been in the kitchen for 20 years now, we just find poor taste that the chef decided to change the menu completely and does not even have the decency to tell us whats in the oven.
No one is stressing out, people are just being pragmatic while you seem to be on chill pills overdose, maybe the fact that your NOT into WFB explains your absolute relaxation.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. I've sat out of WFB for years, not a big deal.
However, if you do want to play, when the new edition hits, the near Army Book / Codex is released, buy it and built to it.
Or, have a mass of stuff, and simply play out of the pile you own.
Right now, we know that WFB is changing over, but the last time GW did this, armies were still playable.
You guys are blowing things way out of proportion.
See John, I think people get irritated with you because you don't lead with that. If you just said upfront "GW always pulls this crap, so don't get too attached to them" people would be fine. If you said "I don't play WHFB because I can't trust GW" people would agree.
Suggesting that people are wrong for being upset with GW for messing up the game they are invested in, then later admitting yourself that you don't play the game, right before stating that other than buying new stuff frequently your only option is to just have a huge library of models to play with, that gets people upset. The fact that a player's army is likely to be relegated to a shelf for most of its existence in favor of whatever new things the rules, or play-ability, require at random intervals is what irritates the hell out of players. The fact that those armies might not even function at all in the near future is even more worrisome and problematic.
In other words, you write that people should stop complaining that they are getting bitten by their dog, when what you are really saying is "Look, this dog is a prick and will bite you. Pet him at your own risk." If you mean to say "GW sucks as a company; don't expect a good long term relationship" just say it. Otherwise you are engaging in some strange version of telling people they are wrong to want better behavior from GW, then falling back on "which GW won't provide" when pressed, which is irksome.
I think I've said that quite a few times, that GW is what it is and we shouldn't expect them to change.
Navarro, GW has been doing this for years, and sure, you've got that old loyalty card, but you're still sitting at the lunch counter, ordering the daily special...
Wehrkind, I think I've been upfront that I really didn't like 8E and sat it out after the first few games. I also stopped buying GW during 40k 6E. Plus, my sig shows pretty clearly how vast my collection is.
Over the years, watching from the sideline, things have become a lot clearer about how I should approach GW, and the recent 9E / Eldar Codex kerfulffle has only helped crystalize things. It's now clear to me how GW works, and I'm now OK with GW.
It's my choice to play, or not, and I'm very comfortable either way. It's not like I don't have other choices...
Feeling like I *have* to invest effort into something that I don't enjoy? Nope. If I don't like it, I don't do it - I just step back or walk away. Easy.
ETA: Right now, the only "big" issue I'm grappling with is whether I should even bother holding on to so much of the "old" GW stuff that I'm not actively using, simply to declutter and clear space. However, as it's all mothballed, it's not actually that big of a deal. ____
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Azreal13 wrote: I suspect the nature and qualities of John's posts is directly proportional to his boredom level and how confrontational he feels.
Wehrkind wrote: On the other hand, claiming that "a few months" is not a large amount of time to get an army ready to play, an amount of time large enough to be worrisome to waste in the face of effectively regime change from GW, that I can't quite understand. It is quite possible to start an WHFB, spend 2-4 months getting it painted and together, only to find that it is entirely unworkable due to a rules change, or just miserable to play. That's a really, really high cost of entry, even beyond the dollar cost, with a fairly high possibility that the cost will get you nothing within a few months. Unless you are the sort of person that loves painting models, many very similar, just for the joy of painting models, that's a pretty big thing to just write off. Most people probably can expect to spend a lot of time and effort preparing an army that may never be fun to game with.
Wehr, it occurs to me that your beautiful WoC army, which was built for 7E and then bashed in the face by 8E, may well become a thing again. And should you need to custom cast up some round bases to rebase their tiny-ankled bodies onto, well then you're certainly all set for it.
I'm in the fortunate position of having no fantasy minis at all, having sold off all my armies 2 years ago, but my heart goes out to people who have heavily invested both money, and more importantly, precious time into fantasy, only to see their armies getting cluster fethed!
I hope I'm wrong, I hope there's a ravening hordes or a WD army lists to get people by, but I just don't see it happening.
I had the chance to spend about 20 minutes with the upcoming book Age of Sigmar by A. Lanning (a novel, not the game) that deals with the aftermath of the end times. The prologue makes it very clear that Sigmar survives and the whole plot takes place after the end times. Nothing that I have read suggests that there is any time travel involved. It is just a continuation of the story on a much broader scale. I think it is safe to say that the game of the same name follows the story of book and doesn't establish a totally different setting.
In the prologue Sigmar survives and pulls the winds of magics through the gap into the warp. In the process the pure untouched currents of the warp are tainted with the personifications of the winds - the Incarnates. This is the birth of eight new minor gods.
But most of the book is not about sigmar or the incarnate gods directly, only three chapters as far as I could see were written from their perspective. The rest of the book is an ordinary fantasy adventure story. The book follows Martellus Mann, a reikguard quartermaster who was slain in the end times, but is reborn in Sigmarshall, the domain of Sigmar.
I then skipped some hundred pages forward so I don't know what happened in the aftermath, but in the middle of the book, he has gathered a large party of heroes from many realms and realities in a quest for something called the spirit mill or soul mill or something like this. I know for sure that there are several worlds and that the protagonist can travel from one to the other but I didn't read a chapter where this was described in person and I don't know if this is part of the game world.
In the middle of the books there is a huge betrayal, sigmarshall is under siege by the armies of the chaos gods. incarnate fights against incarnate and all are cast out from the warp. Mann starts a search for sigmar in the believe that he was reborn somewhere. The second half of the book is set on a world called Regalia. And here it gets interesting: Regalia is the only area/realm/world that has a map in the book. Regalia looks like the old world or earth and has very familiar regions and city names, etc. But there are some huge alterations: there is no Ulthuan, but a huge landbridge that connects Canada with Scandinavia.
There are no elven or dwarven sounding cities or lands but strange sounding names in the Americas and Africa that don't fit any race of the old setting. There is no empire, but lots of different states in Europe and Asia - Nuln, Middenheim, etc are there, but Altdorf is not. There are more things you can deduce from the map if you assume that it represents the setting of the game, which I strongly think it does. Mann finally arrives in the city Heldenheim that is build in the Worlds Edge Mountains just in time to visit the crowning of emperor Karl Franz where he announces his plan to conquer the whole world. Mann thinks that he has found Sigmar and the book jumps to the epilog.
Sigmar is chained somewhere and starts to dwindle, but then he smiles and proclaims that his great work to eliminate the chaos once and for all has only started. He vows to conquer the warp.
I think it is pretty obvious that the game will be set in this new world. Why would they establish all this in the book when the game doesn’t use it at all, but I haven't seen any actual game material (though there is a slim chance that I get a glimpse this weekend - fingers crossed), so take this into account.+
Wehrkind wrote: On the other hand, claiming that "a few months" is not a large amount of time to get an army ready to play, an amount of time large enough to be worrisome to waste in the face of effectively regime change from GW, that I can't quite understand. It is quite possible to start an WHFB, spend 2-4 months getting it painted and together, only to find that it is entirely unworkable due to a rules change, or just miserable to play. That's a really, really high cost of entry, even beyond the dollar cost, with a fairly high possibility that the cost will get you nothing within a few months. Unless you are the sort of person that loves painting models, many very similar, just for the joy of painting models, that's a pretty big thing to just write off. Most people probably can expect to spend a lot of time and effort preparing an army that may never be fun to game with.
Wehr, it occurs to me that your beautiful WoC army, which was built for 7E and then bashed in the face by 8E, may well become a thing again. And should you need to custom cast up some round bases to rebase their tiny-ankled bodies onto, well then you're certainly all set for it.
- Salvage
Yea, I have to admit that I am following this thread mostly because I am interested to see if I can get some use out of that large pile of metal. Tiny, beautiful metal :(
I haven't given 40k a glance in probably 6 years, but WHFB still could do some good by me if this 9th/AoS thing pans out well.
Then again, if anyone asked, I would say to avoid GW like the plague, doing nothing more than getting some rules and planning on doing counts-as for everything. Any other advice just seems irresponsible, like telling someone to invest all of their retirement money in helping Nigerian Princes.
Wehrkind wrote: Then again, if anyone asked, I would say to avoid GW like the plague, doing nothing more than getting some rules and planning on doing counts-as for everything.
I'm actually quite excited to do up a 9E army using Croc Games minis, something I've wanted to do since around the time 8E hit, but wasn't really feasible in that edition. Round bases would just make it look cooler. But until GW gives me some rules to work my Counts As Fu on, I'll just keep quietly amassing Malifaux
mikhaila wrote: Lots and lots of differences in the demise of TSR and where GW is today. Although their might be some similarities we also don't know about yet.
I'd love to know certain things about Black Libraries book distribution and it's liabilities. That cause a major hit to TSR when they shot themselves in the foot by announcing self distribution of paperbacks and triggering millions of dollars of returns of unlold books.
And on WFB sales: Mine are totally unaffected by the announcement of AOS. My stores have barely sold WFB since the 2nd yer of 8th. Maybe 2% of 40k sales. So not selling anything is normal. Endtimes was actually a huge bump over the usual nothing.
Mike what would you say was the high point for WFB sales? 6th edition? 7th edition? earlier/later? What would you say brought the sales down for 8th edition, lack of players, inability to carry all the range, something else?
@bbb - 6E should have been the height of WFB. The reduced points value per model and streamlined rules allowed for vast expansion of armies, and ease of recruiting new players. Well-varied scenarios and Border Princes campaign made the games interesting and meaningful. Plus, no Warmachine / Hordes as competition.
6th was amazing. That may have been partly due to amazingly solid rules (unless you cried about Knights), but it was probably also because we didn't have 10000000 armchair generals online talking about the only list in this army to run is X. "Play this way, or don't bother" is very common online. Attitude has definitely gotten more cynical, and we partially have the Internet to blame. Of course, GW writing worse rules each edition doesn't help either.
I say this having played with multiple people who went to GTs and placed high. Never won, but placed high. None of them gave auto-lists of what must be taken, or else forget about winning. They would offer advice how best to use units, but largely helped people run lists they wanted. And none of those guys ran net style lists themselves. Even now, they all do their own thing and laugh at the poor generals who have to steal ideas online from others. Pla the army YOU want to win with. Playing somebody else's list doesn't mean you'll play it the same exact way they would. So you'll lose.
His Master's Voice wrote: I like the concept of Mordheim, but it was never going to work as an introduction to WFB on a relevant scale. The gap between model counts and general mechanics (urban comabt vs open battlefield) was just too big.
The game also lived and died when WFB was still going strong and GW had no desire to offer a cheaper alternative.
In general, it takes more than just low model count and the same setting for a game to be an effective gateway drug. The models and rules have to be highly compatible. Take Necromunda and 40k. Pretty much nothing from that awesome game transitions to 40k, unless as a "counts as". Now think about a Kill Team game with Deathwatch, Ork Freebooterz, Gene Cults and an some Eldar Aspect Rave Party with BBQ and Music as your starter forces. Let the top model count go as high as 30 for the Orks. Heck, go 40. Then add relevant entries for those "warbands" in the respective big game codex books, preferably as Troops.
There, you can now light your fireplace with 100$ bills.
Not to contradict you, but I like kill-team as it is quite well. Though if you go for a 40+ cultist group, it becomes ridiculously imballanced against any unprepared foe.
I think kill-team as it is now is a decent gateway drug, except hardly anyone even knows about it. I've talked to quite a number of veteran players with huge armies who reacted along the lines of "huh? never heard of it... sounds kinda interesting... is that new?"
And given that I have introduced people to Warhammer Fantasy Battle with Mordheim... that claim is demonstrably untrue.
That said - the scale of Warhammer has changed over the years - becoming more and bigger figures crammed into the same space, at an ever increasing price.
My group no longer plays Warhammer - Kings of War has replaced it. (And, ironically, can handle larger battles more easily.)
My group still plays Mordheim.
So, the game that GW kicked to the curb is the game still seeing play....
They also still play Necromunda - but several of the players have sold off their WH40K armies. (Not coincidentally - those armies were mostly Space Wolves....)
Though there is a game that is cutting into the Necromunda group - Deadzone - it seems that there are other companies that see value in ideas that GW has cast aside....
I wish I could weigh in on 6E, but it was the edition I skipped. I painstakingly built up 1000 points of O&G, played a few games, had my entire army run away in all of them thanks to chain panics, then bought 40k 3E
I'll admit I've skimmed a lot of this, so if something along these lines has been posted already, I apologise. Also I'm aware everyone has no reason to believe a word I say, but figured it was worth putting this out there any way. After they removed the books from the shelves last week, my local GW sold more of the books over that weekend than they have in a long time. I also happened to be in store when their latest delivery came in, and this may just be GW trying to sell what they can, but every book they sold, including the end times book that went, Archaeon I think, was completely restocked, which suggested to us that the books are going to stay
TheAuldGrump wrote: And given that I have introduced people to Warhammer Fantasy Battle with Mordheim... that claim is demonstrably untrue.
Good thing I never claimed no one ever picked up Warhammer as a result of playing Mordheim.
Gee, that's funny - the first part of the quote had you saying pretty much that....
It was the gateway for a lot of gamers in my are - so... yeah. I disagree with the 'I like the concept of Mordheim, but it was never going to work as an introduction to WFB on a relevant scale. The gap between model counts and general mechanics (urban comabt vs open battlefield) was just too big.'
Orc players, Empire players, Skaven players, and Dwarf players all got their start in Warhammer as a result of Mordheim.
In my local area that is maybe fifty people over the course of several years. So, yeah, it is a 'relevant scale'. A majority of the Warhammer players in the area at the time.
I used Mordheim in classes at a summer program - and quite a few of those kids also went on to have Warhammer armies. (Including a student that trounced me with her Orc warband....)
But, as [i\I[/i] mentioned - the scale of Warhammer was smaller when Mordheim was released. It was an easier hobby to get into, and the Mordheim warbands were used as either units characters in the larger game.
Mostly, GW believed that Mordheim was cannibalizing sales from Warhammer....
On the plus side, most of the Mordheim players are now using figures from pretty much every company that isn'tGW. (Reaper, Avatars of War, and Heresy seem to be most popular.) So, now that GW has dropped Mordheim, it really is eating their sales!
TheAuldGrump wrote: Gee, that's funny - the first part of the quote had you saying pretty much that....
No, it didn't. You even quoted the relevant part. I'm going to assume you can understand the difference between an event occurring seldom enough to not be relevant and an event not occurring at all.
What you consider relevant scale is statistical error for me. Don't play Gotcha! with me using your casual evidence, because I have my own, and I understand how irrelevant it is to the subject at hand.
Mordheim is a poor introduction to WFB, for objective reasons not related to your personal success story with the game. Had it been better, your fifty could have been a hundred. Or two hundred.
That's not from naftka, but from me. Naftka posted it as their own drek.
Charles Rampant wrote: (simply taking a photograph of the map would surely have been enough to prove his point, but obviously nobody has any kind of portable camera on them these days).
Let me be clear: it doesn't matter if you believe me or not. My point here is solely that the notion, that anything without a photo attached to it can be discarded without further thought, is really stupid. Imagine a friend of yours shows you something interesting, but makes it clear that he is normally not allowed to do that but does it anyway because you are his friend. So you sit down and look at that thing and your friend is grinning because it is very obvious that you are excited like a child on christmas eve. But what would happen if you take your iphone out and made photos of everything. Do you really believe he would be ok with that? That would be very unlikely. The moment you take a picture you are making it very clear that your intention is not to consume for your own pleasure but to share with someone else. Have people like harry or hastings that have reliably kept their sources ever posted a picture to prove their point? In times where blogs like faeit lie and lie again about their insider knowledge, it is very wise to be careful and critical. But the argument that anyone who has the luck to get her hands on some unreleased material should be able to provide photos is stupid. Photos put sources in peril and posting them without consent is a greater breach of trust than paraphrasing some paragraphs. I don't know why I am so mad about this, but I am.
Thargrim wrote: Lol sarcasm i'm hoping, 90% of people I know how a little something called a cellphone which most modern ones are capable of taking very crisp images. The fact that people supposedly get their hands on this stuff, and don't take images leaves me with the impression they are either brain dead or don't care to be taken seriously.
The only one who is apparently brain dead is you (see above).
unmercifulconker wrote: So guys I read the upcoming book and got a good glimpse of the parts which are essentially the rumours we have at the moment but sorry guys I skipped all the important bits in the middle which explains the story lol my bad.
What would you do if you had a huge novel in front of you choke full of interesting things but only a very small time frame to get to all the juicy stuff. You don't know where the pivotal events are. Where do you start, which passages do you skip? All while pretending to be mildly interested instead of frantically trying to absorb the full scope. That's the situation I was in and given the circumstances I could have done a worse job. The obvious first step is to look at the beginning and the last chapter and this is exactly what I have done. I recognized that the first and last chapters were unlike the rest from sigmars perspective. I leafed through the book and found the Sigmar POV interlude and the map. The tiny rest of the time I spent reading more or less random fragments. I'd like to see how you would fare under these circumstances. Maybe we can come back in some weeks when we have read the novel and judge in earnest how good a job I have done.
I don't understand this idea that the smaller games don't introduce people to the larger. When Necromunda and Gorkamorka were first released the rules very much mirrored the version of 40k at the time meaning that transition was fairly easy
Howard A Treesong wrote: I don't understand this idea that the smaller games don't introduce people to the larger. When Necromunda and Gorkamorka were first released the rules very much mirrored the version of 40k at the time meaning that transition was fairly easy
Because the miniatures aren't shared by both games. Well, gorkamorka might have been good for Ork players, but the Muties and Diggas suffered the same fate as the Necromunda models.
A true introduction skirmish game would involve all the factions for warhammer or 40k but on a smaller scale so players can develop that same Warband into an army. This is why kill team having boxed sets would be a good idea imo.
I never played Mordhiem but I understand it suffered a similar fate.
And this isn't to say GW skirmish games weren't great games that I would love to see return. I think my sig shows I am a die-hard Necromunda fan.
Let's be clear, nobody plays either Warhammer for the stimulating play and ferocious dedication to balance.
We play the games, or build and paint the models, or both, because we love the background. Only a real affinity for the background is really going to form a bond strong enough for most people to undertake the investment of time, money and space to participate.
The likes of Mordheim, Necromunda, Inquisitor etc do that job just fine.
Sure, were they to redesign those games, it would be smart to design it to smooth the transition as much as possible, but the influence they've had, alongside the likes of Heroquest and Space Crusade for my generation, can't be denied or underestimated.
Man, Kill Team boxed sets is a genuinely great idea! To be fair, the Cadian Armoured Fist effort was pretty much a killteam by itself, I think.
I think that I agree with both sides in the Mordheim issue: I can see that it served as a gateway drug, but it could have been a lot more focused on doing that, if it had featured all the WFB factions, and used their normal units. Mordheim had a lovely background and model selection - really, much darker and more atmospheric than the full game at that time - but the focus on that background really limits its ability to serve as gateway. I mean, I play High Elves and Tomb Kings. I don't see how I could have gone from a Marienburger force to one of those. If we are getting some skirmish effort then I think that having all the normal factions in it would really be great for introducing players to The Beautiful Game.
Also, on the camera phone thing: no need to get angry over a sarcastic comment. Though sad no spy-like tracing of the map took place!
Azreal13 wrote: Let's be clear, nobody plays either Warhammer for the stimulating play and ferocious dedication to balance.
We play the games, or build and paint the models, or both, because we love the background. Only a real affinity for the background is really going to form a bond strong enough for most people to undertake the investment of time, money and space to participate.
The likes of Mordheim, Necromunda, Inquisitor etc do that job just fine.
Sure, were they to redesign those games, it would be smart to design it to smooth the transition as much as possible, but the influence they've had, alongside the likes of Heroquest and Space Crusade for my generation, can't be denied or underestimated.
Would of been cool to integrate them into something like a mercenary company or something.
I really feel sorry for Bretonnian players. After the WE release, there was a teaser video showing a Bretonnian peasant with something flying overhead. Then, there was rumors abound that they were finally getting a book after 10 years and countless editions of waiting. That was all followed up by 7 weeks of 40K releases and then Nagash, which blows up their most favorite land mark. Then, with each ET book, they just keep twisting the knife - killing Louen in Glottkin and then saying that the Lady in the Lake was really just an Elvish goddess that was misleading them in Archaon.
I have a full Brett army that sees very little game time right now. I hope for the best with whatever WFB is turning into, but it seems the writing is on the wall for us Brett players.
While I'm still interested in seeing just what GW does with WFB I'm resigned to the likelihood that my Brett army is destined to be used in KoW or broken up into Frostgrave warbands.
Howard A Treesong wrote: I don't understand this idea that the smaller games don't introduce people to the larger. When Necromunda and Gorkamorka were first released the rules very much mirrored the version of 40k at the time meaning that transition was fairly easy
I think it would be hard to say that Mordheim/Necromunda 'never' influenced people into trying their big-brother counterparts.
But I would question just -how much- they influenced people, and to what percentage/size they did.
Like many here, I started 40k and WHFB long before Mordheim or Necromunda were produced. And, we all likely know of people who have started up one or both of those games long after both of those games were no longer in print. But I am sure we could all find someone who played 40K/WHFB (or still do), thanks to one of those games. Are they 'gateway' games? Sure. Were they 'good ones'? That's quite subjective.
The idea that those games were also 'cutting into' sales of their larger scale versions is also an interesting consideration. Were there players who played Necro/Mord that MIGHT have played WHFB/40K if not for those smaller-scale (cheaper) games? Or would those players have never touched a GW game at all if not for them? It's hard to say, really, and ultimately it really comes down to personal experience and opinion.
I do find it funny that GW would stop producing Necro/Mordheim for that reason: the thought that they would 'force' people into the larger scale games by removing the smaller-scale option just seems so... silly. Of course, back in the 90's, there weren't the plethora of alternatives that we have today. So now, if GW was smart, they'd realize that the market is drastically different from 1995, and =get on board= that scale of 'intro' to their bigger games - rather than fight against it.
Azreal13 wrote: Let's be clear, nobody plays either Warhammer for the stimulating play and ferocious dedication to balance.
We play the games, or build and paint the models, or both, because we love the background. Only a real affinity for the background is really going to form a bond strong enough for most people to undertake the investment of time, money and space to participate.
Ah... I play the game because it allows me to maneuver large units. That, and because I can actually find people who play WFB, as opposed to (for example) KoW.
Azreal13 wrote: Let's be clear, nobody plays either Warhammer for the stimulating play and ferocious dedication to balance.
We play the games, or build and paint the models, or both, because we love the background. Only a real affinity for the background is really going to form a bond strong enough for most people to undertake the investment of time, money and space to participate.
The likes of Mordheim, Necromunda, Inquisitor etc do that job just fine.
Sure, were they to redesign those games, it would be smart to design it to smooth the transition as much as possible, but the influence they've had, alongside the likes of Heroquest and Space Crusade for my generation, can't be denied or underestimated.
You're making an assumption on why people play the game based on why you play the game. I am sure that somebody plays the game because they like the way they look or because they enjoy the gameplay (not everyone cares about balance). Just don't make sweeping generalizations.
40KNobz11 wrote: Does anyone know if current codex books will still be used?
They got pulled from the shelves, so probably not. The assumption is a "ravening hordes" type model.
Ravening hordes?!?!
When we went from 5th-6th the points costs and the system for selecting armies changed dramatically and the 5th books were invalidated. We got a booklet titled Ravening Hordes which had simplified army lists and magic items for our armies which would function in 6th until the new Army Books were released.
40KNobz11 wrote: Does anyone know if current codex books will still be used?
They got pulled from the shelves, so probably not. The assumption is a "ravening hordes" type model.
Ravening hordes?!?!
When we went from 5th-6th the points costs and the system for selecting armies changed dramatically and the 5th books were invalidated. We got a booklet titled Ravening Hordes which had simplified army lists and magic items for our armies which would function in 6th until the new Army Books were released.
I see. Never really played fantasy just collected armies haha! I play 40k
Okay, let me clarify a few points, since I've been in my local GW in the last couple weeks.
All the fantasy rulebooks, codexes, end times, etc. have been pulled from the shelves. You can still buy them. You'd have to ask. They're in the back.
(Whether you should or not is another thing...Who knows.)
Our local GW, since we're US has decided to open on the 4th, holiday be . Apparently they were given the choice.
There's NO way this is a board game. You do not pull all the rulebooks and codecies and leave a huge shelf space with 10-20 "Age of Sigmar" placecards for a stand alone board game.
Schlyne wrote: Okay, let me clarify a few points, since I've been in my local GW in the last couple weeks.
My local FLGS has been given sign-up "I'm interested" sheets from Games Workshop, with a name & email slot. They've also been told to pull the Fantasy books. I didn't ask specifically, but I'm assuming they'll be credited back for it when it's sent back -- along with their annual stock balancing return stuff, where they'll send back old unsold codex books and all that kinda thing. It's worth noting that no models have been pulled or taken off the order list.
I should mention the signup sheet looks pretty empty, because nobody knows what "the product" is. Like, a book, a box with a hundred models, a box with 20 models... Of course, they are assuming is the next WHFB, even though their rep hasn't specifically stated so.
It would be an epic let-down if it were anything else
Yes. The full line of fantasy models has not changed on the wall and the old demo kit is still on the table. The starter boxes are in the back, but I believe the fantasy demo kit is still on the demo table. I'm sure if you went in and asked about how fantasy works and wanted to know (in general), the manager would at least be able to show you some painted models.
Our local GW is also throwing some sort of release party on the 11th for Age of Sigmar. So cupcakes and cookies and maybe some contests/mini games.
Vulcan wrote:
Ah... I play the game because it allows me to maneuver large units.
Plenty like that, that actually concentrate more on maneuvering large units than on the attacks and wounds and saves and rank bonuses of individual minis. ("Amazing facts! Did you know that other systems have infantry blocks that stick around and fight back without needing 'steadfast' and 'step up' rules tacked on?") The number of even just those that let you slot in your WFB minis might surprise you.
That, and because I can actually find people who play WFB, as opposed to (for example) KoW.
Azreal13 wrote: Let's be clear, nobody plays either Warhammer for the stimulating play and ferocious dedication to balance.
We play the games, or build and paint the models, or both, because we love the background. Only a real affinity for the background is really going to form a bond strong enough for most people to undertake the investment of time, money and space to participate.
The likes of Mordheim, Necromunda, Inquisitor etc do that job just fine.
Sure, were they to redesign those games, it would be smart to design it to smooth the transition as much as possible, but the influence they've had, alongside the likes of Heroquest and Space Crusade for my generation, can't be denied or underestimated.
You're making an assumption on why people play the game based on why you play the game. I am sure that somebody plays the game because they like the way they look or because they enjoy the gameplay (not everyone cares about balance). Just don't make sweeping generalizations.
I'll make sweeping generalisations as I see fit, thanks very much. If you disagree with my generalisations then feel free to refute them, but I stand by what I said, neither Warhammer offers particularly stimulating gameplay and neither Warhammer is well balanced (although I'll concede FB is probably better in both cases.)
Plenty like that, that actually concentrate more on maneuvering large units than on the attacks and wounds and saves and rank bonuses of individual minis. ("Amazing facts! Did you know that other systems have infantry blocks that stick around and fight back without needing 'steadfast' and 'step up' rules tacked on?") The number of even just those that let you slot in your WFB minis might surprise you.
Hardly plenty, and virtually none with any sort of coverage/playing scene.
Only one that has any sort of exposure is kings of war.
If you know of plenty then id like to see the names.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Gee, that's funny - the first part of the quote had you saying pretty much that....
No, it didn't. You even quoted the relevant part. I'm going to assume you can understand the difference between an event occurring seldom enough to not be relevant and an event not occurring at all.
What you consider relevant scale is statistical error for me. Don't play Gotcha! with me using your casual evidence, because I have my own, and I understand how irrelevant it is to the subject at hand.
Mordheim is a poor introduction to WFB, for objective reasons not related to your personal success story with the game. Had it been better, your fifty could have been a hundred. Or two hundred.
So, you do realize that I am disagreeing with the 'relevant' part, hmm?
And that I in fact, I did say that it was a 'relevant number'.
So, yes - I disagree with you.
Mordheim acted as a gateway - and demonstrably so.
You may disagree - but since I know of many, many examples of exactly that happening - and that is more people than are currently playing Warhammer in my area.
By any scale, 50% of an areas gaming is relevant. You may be saying that the total number of gamers in my area is irelevant.
The number of Warhammer players is dropping.
GW is losing areas - not just a gamer here, a gamer there.
Because people want to play what is being played. The same force that made Warhammer the big gorilla is starting to turn people away from Warhammer - if a group is playing something else, then new players are introduced to that something else.
At the same time that the number of players started dropping GW dropped the smaller scale game that got people interested in fantasy wargaming in the first place.
So, the number is relevant. GW is hemorrhaging sales, and in the game where you seem to think that adding new players by way of having a gateway game isn't 'relevant'.
If the sales were growing, then you might have some chance of being correct - but since sales are dropping?
No.
What is actually happening is that GW has been trying to change Warhammer to being played with larger armies, with large monsters... and selling the miniatures in boxes small enough that you need several boxes to get a single unit.
And that strategy has not been working.
Instead of squeezing more money out of the game, the sales are dropping enough that the folks at GW are not even bothering to call the new game Warhammer.
But, hey, now they are trying for a smaller scale....
There does not need to be a 100% overlap between a skirmish game and the full scale game - a gateway is not necessarily even a game by the same company.
Nearly all of those people playing Warhammer in my area played D&D long before deciding to try Mordheim and then Warhammer.
And if you do not think that D&D - played with a different system, with a much, much smaller number of figures than Mordheim, let alone Warhammer, is not 'relevant' then you are just being silly.
More people play D&D than Warhammer. More people are exposed to D&D than Warhammer.
D&D was and is the gateway to fantasy gaming, Mordheim and the older, smaller scaled Warhammer, was the gateway to fantasy wargaming.
Gateways are relevant.
And at this point, Warhammer is losing its relevancy - and is being replaced by other options.
My local area is probably a weird example - a whole bunch of folks changed over to Kings of War, and continued using their Warhammer armies. The group hovers between twenty and thirty players. And they bring new players in. *EDIT* CORRECTION - the mailing list for the local fantasy gaming group is over a hundred people... When the Hell did that happen?... Mostly SCA folks, but still....
At the same time, people have been buying minis from a wider selection of companies than was the case when a GW game dominated the area.
Yes, none of the companies are selling as many of the figures used in the armies as GW used to - but each of those miniatures is not only a lost sale for GW but a sale that has gone to their competition.
The dwarf army shared between me and my girlfriend is about 80% Mantic (for no better reason than the minis were inexpensive, and looked decent for the price). The heroes are by Reaper and Stonehaven, and the berserkers are Avatars of War.
Another player's undead army is a similar mix - and the owner sold off his all GW undead army to buy Mantic. Which meant that the sold army was also money not going into GW's coffers.
At every step of the way GW is losing relevancy - and part of that loss is giving up on the gateways into the H-H-Hobby.
So, never believe that a gateway is not 'relevant'.
Azreal13 wrote: Let's be clear, nobody plays either Warhammer for the stimulating play and ferocious dedication to balance.
We play the games, or build and paint the models, or both, because we love the background. Only a real affinity for the background is really going to form a bond strong enough for most people to undertake the investment of time, money and space to participate.
The likes of Mordheim, Necromunda, Inquisitor etc do that job just fine.
Sure, were they to redesign those games, it would be smart to design it to smooth the transition as much as possible, but the influence they've had, alongside the likes of Heroquest and Space Crusade for my generation, can't be denied or underestimated.
You're making an assumption on why people play the game based on why you play the game. I am sure that somebody plays the game because they like the way they look or because they enjoy the gameplay (not everyone cares about balance). Just don't make sweeping generalizations.
I'll make sweeping generalisations as I see fit, thanks very much. If you disagree with my generalisations then feel free to refute them, but I stand by what I said, neither Warhammer offers particularly stimulating gameplay and neither Warhammer is well balanced (although I'll concede FB is probably better in both cases.)
Well i will refute at least one of your sweeping generalizations. I play WHFB because i find the game fun, and my friends and i have a good time playing the game.
Also making "sweeping generalizations" is typically considered a poor debate and point / counter point ploy. Defending making sweeping generalizations when it's pointed out that your making them, or it's insinuated that you're toeing the line of making them, with "I'll do what I want, buster, and you can't stop me." is even less effective rhetorical device, bordering on childish.
Your statement was that "we" (to wit - "people") play, collect, or paint the game because of the background, and that's a prima facie untrue statement nearly impossible to support. I've bolded it in the quote above so there's no misunderstanding. Many painters on this forum have stated that they don't play the game but paint the pieces because they like / love the models. Many people, despite the incredibly vocal opposition otherwise, enjoy playing GW games (however in the spirit of good debate - i actually agree with you that I would doubt that there are many people that play WHFB because they find it the most balanced game on the market. I'd find that statement as ridiculous as your present it to be).
So those arguments of your are sweeping generalizations. All of 13 seconds of searching the forums returned threads that would prove both your contention false.
There's no doubt GW makes a metric ton of dumb mistakes, their market share is shrinking, and the ship is taking on water faster than it can be bailed out proverbially, but stating the only reason why anyone plays GW games or buys the models is an affinity for the background of the game is again, a prima facie series of untrue statements. It's a set of statements that isn't even defensible for someone who frequents this forum as often as either you or I do.
I like their games, but they as a company do a ton of stupid things, and i don't blame people who have said "enough is enough". However your arguments as presented are flat out ridiculous.
Then you called my contention that people need to be invested in the background to justify the investment of time and resources ridiculous and poof! your whole stance looks on decidedly more shaky ground.
It's blatantly not a ridiculous thing to say, let alone flat out ridiculous.
But I do despair slightly that more than one person seems to have taken my reference to "nobody" as literally nobody ever. That'll teach me to talk like a normal person in the domain of the po-faced and the literal that is the internet.
Yeah, a poor one. Which was my point from the start.
As for the rest, I already told you I don't care about exchanging casual evidence. I get your position. Mine is different. And they lived happily ever after. The End.
Hardly plenty, and virtually none with any sort of coverage/playing scene.
Give it time.
And maybe, actually getting to know and organise with all those 'strangers' that constantly meet in the same place to play. I know it's a stretch asking some gamers to be more social, but it does help.
I dont know but I always imagined that our hobby life was an agglomeration of experiences. The hobby will be stronger if you have more options to choose from. In the case of GW I believe that games like spacehulk, warhammer quest etc are exactly what enriches the mainstream big ranges, not the other way around.
So Yes Im convinced that other games based on the same universe will provide you a better overall experience and has the potential to introduce people from different backgrounds into 40k or WFB.
More exposure = more people exposed I think?
Which brings me to the following point, replacing a mainstream mass battle wargame like WFB for a skirmish caricature is not exactly expanding the scope of options or enriching the hobby experience. Its actually reducing and compressing the enjoyment. Yes many want a skirmish and they deserve to have one!... as long as its not at the expense of the folks that supported that mass battle wargame for decades.
NAVARRO wrote: Which brings me to the following point, replacing a mainstream mass battle wargame like WFB for a skirmish caricature is not exactly expanding the scope of options or enriching the hobby experience. Its actually reducing and compressing the enjoyment. Yes many want a skirmish and they deserve to have one!... as long as its not at the expense of the folks that supported that mass battle wargame for decades.
In all honesty, Fantasy has never been a true 'mass battle' wargame and the attempt to turn it into such with 8th edition is one of the reasons it lost so many players. Up to 3rd edition it was an skirmish game. 4th-5th was a big skirmish/dark ages small battles game. As it should be. Fantasy works on a system (individual models that attack and are killed as such) that simply can't support any serious 'mass battle' attempt.
A return to its skirmish roots could be a good move, but it's unlikely the current GW game designers can craft a decent ruleset, and other of the core issues of the game (the ridiculously high prices of everything) won't likely be addressed. In fact, it may get even worse with those boxes of five infantry miniatures at 45€.
And maybe, actually getting to know and organise with all those 'strangers' that constantly meet in the same place to play. I know it's a stretch asking some gamers to be more social, but it does help.
And FLGS owners should just let people not buying product take up space. Truly, you folk in the UK are incredibly nice. Again, if you're not playing the new version, you're not buying new product (except maybe general supplies like paint and glue); what reason does a game store have to let you in the door if you're just going to NOT buy anything and then actually encourage others to do the same?
I envision the players being introduced to the new setting in a similar fashion to the linked segment. Instead of Rimmer saying, "Jump starts the second Big Bang?", in that tone, put, "Bubbles of reality?" in it's place. I think that's the general reaction most players are having.
And maybe, actually getting to know and organise with all those 'strangers' that constantly meet in the same place to play. I know it's a stretch asking some gamers to be more social, but it does help.
And FLGS owners should just let people not buying product take up space. Truly, you folk in the UK are incredibly nice. Again, if you're not playing the new version, you're not buying new product (except maybe general supplies like paint and glue); what reason does a game store have to let you in the door if you're just going to NOT buy anything and then actually encourage others to do the same?
As mentioned a while back, in the UK the FLGS is a rare, nigh-on mythical beast. There are a few big ones that also have large web presence (Darksphere, Firestorm, Element, Wayland) but as far as 'local' stores go, it's just the odd GW and toy/craft/hobby stores that will stock a shelf or two of GW stuff. Most gaming gets done at independent clubs or at home, where organisating non-'official'/non-current gameplay is far easier to do. There's little of the anonymity that seems prevalent from what I've read of the American FLGS scene, it's much more about the social aspect then just showing up to play games, at least in my experience.
I do find it odd that same sort of social gaming doesn't form there as (presumably regular) players frequently meet in stores, but perhaps the places do get enough footfall that you won't often end up playing the same people with any kind of regularity? You raise a good point about stores not necessarily selling new stuff, but that could just as well apply to 'current' games as well? It's an extreme example, but would you say the same about someone who has finished building an army and has no one intent to expand it/start another? Surely the store isn't making money there either?
Or the store could just charge a fee for table use, which could then be redeemed against a purchase? So you spend $X to play for the afternoon, if you buy something that day you get X back off that?
agnosto wrote: And FLGS owners should just let people not buying product take up space. Truly, you folk in the UK are incredibly nice. Again, if you're not playing the new version, you're not buying new product (except maybe general supplies like paint and glue); what reason does a game store have to let you in the door if you're just going to NOT buy anything and then actually encourage others to do the same?
And maybe, actually getting to know and organise with all those 'strangers' that constantly meet in the same place to play. I know it's a stretch asking some gamers to be more social, but it does help.
And FLGS owners should just let people not buying product take up space. Truly, you folk in the UK are incredibly nice. Again, if you're not playing the new version, you're not buying new product (except maybe general supplies like paint and glue); what reason does a game store have to let you in the door if you're just going to NOT buy anything and then actually encourage others to do the same?
I make money off of nearly anyone in my store playing games. Really don't care what they play. I've had historical groups in playing 10cm celts vs romans using rules sets and miniatures I can't even order or sell. Doesn't matter. They were quite polite in asking, and even said "we know we take up space, and you won't make money off of us". I laughed and said 'paint? glue? sodas? the new bolt action book?'
I probably get 20.00 a person in sales from guys playing games that I don't sell
Note though, that these are some polite wargamers. If they can buy it in the shop, they do. I similarly wouldn't care about people playing out of date WFB. The ones that are problems are the people that make it a point to never spend money, or are vocal about why people should buy on line. Doing this while in the store using tables and scenery is rude as hell, and I have talks with them. They either be quiet or get escorted to the door. These guys are rare though, and generally the other players hold them down and give them the dreadsock treatment and don't have to do anything.
Back on Subject: a few years back I heard that UK retailers got far less plastic boxes than I did. Later, i saw a rumor that said GW planned to limit the WFB line to just a few offerings from each army. Over the next 3 years they made this a reality and i now have less than half the WFB models i used to have in the store. Some armies, as you all know, are horribly limited.
What I wonder, is this in line with the new factions? I seriously hope not as so many of the boxes only available on the website are great models a lot of us own. Does the vast lack of Bretonians mean they are just a footnote? or will those kits become available again. Will dwarfs just be an infantry component of the empire? We don't need high elf archers because wood elf and dark elf missle troops are available for the "Elf Army"?
How the hell has GW kept this all secret? I really expected to see someone with all the leaks by now.
Thanks for the list of game systms vermis, 8 ive never heard of and another discontinued games workshop one, with far less support than oldhammer anyway.
Kings of war, the one i mentioned and only one ive heard of id wager has more support than all the rest put together, meaning while they exist they are basically irrelevant, the realistic choice is newhammer, oldhammer or kings of war basically when the new set comes out next month.
So people repeatedly saying "play the edition you like" is perfectly valid, despite the issues frequently arising in the real world if you try and do this outside of an established group, but so,done suggesting "try another system" is basically irrelevant, essentially, it seems, because you've not heard of it?
Is anyone else starting to think that GW is responsible for all leaks? How is it that something this big has has no concrete rumours or well any information? What if GW choose what it is that gets leaked before and has someone leak it for them, and as they want this secret, nothing has gotten out
statu wrote: Is anyone else starting to think that GW is responsible for all leaks? How is it that something this big has has no concrete rumours or well any information? What if GW choose what it is that gets leaked before and has someone leak it for them, and as they want this secret, nothing has gotten out
No, I think they have a cast iron belief in the week before preview = £££ and nothing else.
Leaking intentionally makes no sense. They may as well just do hints or sneak peaks like they used to.
I don't know, I've suspected as much for some time, the timing and manner of leaks, at least any sort of photographic leaks, is hilariously predictable most of the time.
Back on Subject: a few years back I heard that UK retailers got far less plastic boxes than I did. Later, i saw a rumor that said GW planned to limit the WFB line to just a few offerings from each army. Over the next 3 years they made this a reality and i now have less than half the WFB models i used to have in the store. Some armies, as you all know, are horribly limited.
What I wonder, is this in line with the new factions? I seriously hope not as so many of the boxes only available on the website are great models a lot of us own. Does the vast lack of Bretonians mean they are just a footnote? or will those kits become available again. Will dwarfs just be an infantry component of the empire? We don't need high elf archers because wood elf and dark elf missle troops are available for the "Elf Army"?
Could it be that the reason those kits have been pulled to direct only is because they're in line for revamps?
High Elf Archers, Spearmen, and Silver Helms are older than my youngest brother--and look wildly out of place in the forces as they stand.
How the hell has GW kept this all secret? I really expected to see someone with all the leaks by now.
Maybe the people with the leaks are excited by what they're seeing, and want everyone else to get to share in the wonder before the internet beats their hope and optimism to a bloody pulp?
Azreal13 wrote: Didn't they get cheap grav cannons in the Marine Dex too?
I've had a few games in the past against people with French and German army books in the past, and for some strange reason, their troops and equipment was always cheaper than their English language equivalent
zacharia wrote: Thanks for the list of game systms vermis, 8 ive never heard of
And now you have heard of them! First problem solved. Next!
...and another discontinued games workshop one, with far less support than oldhammer anyway. Kings of war, the one i mentioned and only one ive heard of id wager has more support than all the rest put together, meaning while they exist they are basically irrelevant
Then it's tragically obvious you haven't read a thing I've typed. What exactly do you mean by 'support'? One of a number of things, I'd guess.
- Are the rules unsupported? Are they unavailable? The only one from that list that has apparently since disappeared, with no obvious source, is Fantasy Rules! (Obligatory exclamation mark: annoying) All the rest are still there, most available as free downloads, or as downloads and books that cost a fraction of what the WFB main book and a handful of army books will. (Even OOP Warmaster. Especially Warmaster.) Well, until everyone puts the latter on ebay for pennies because the only people who'll care about 8th will already have 'em. Even then that little list will be a bit more accessible, I'd guess.
- Are the minis supported? If you wonder that about the list, then you really missed the point of it, to the point that you forgot your own request to see it. All of them allow you to slot your own, existing WFB armies and collections in, and by extension your preferred background. (Fun fact: some don't have a mini range to sell: they're pure rules) Granted, there'll be a little more wiggling with rules that need proxies or counts-as - rather than those with unit creation rules - including Warmaster. But then I mentioned that, and that's the great thing about having a list of alternatives that someone typed up for you.
In the specific case of Warmaster: Hail Caesar and Pike and Shotte, basically Warmaster 2.1 and WM 2.2, are very popular among 28mm historical gamers. There aren't too many drastic changes between those and the original, especially with the built-in ability to switch between scales. It wouldn't break the game (or the bank) to blu-tac your WFB minis to something like 60x40mm bases, maybe jigger the measurements, and have a quick whirl.
- Will you have opponents? Will you be able to play them in GW stores? For the latter; obviously not. But then you're up a certain creek if you want to play any of GW's own games there, barring the current systems and editions.
For the former: I don't know. That's up to you. I can only point the games out to you. It's up to you to read the rules, check the reviews, look at the battle reports, and (heaven forfend) get someone else to spare a couple of hours with either their or one of your WFB armies. Maybe there's a local club or FLGS that isn't completely hung up on GW (they're getting more common, you know); especially excellent clubs like Eilif's or Auldgrump's that are open to KoW or similar, or great stores like Mikhaila's*, or somewhere you can rent table time even if there are no products you 'need'. (But heck, if you're playing in some version of the Warhammer background, and the shop stocks some Age of Sigmar minis you like the look of, and given that these open rulesets don't demand 40- and sometimes not even 20-strong units to play...) Maybe you could start your own club. Maybe not. I do know that all you really need is a set of minis (done), rules (free or cheap), a second warm body (if there was only some way to meet other gamers in this notoriously solitary hobby of ours, and some widely available and convenient communication network to keep in touch with them...), and a table, kitchen or otherwise. (I've spent most of my gaming hobby hunched over that variety of household furniture. And statistically, one out of every two gamers is unlikely to be homeless.)
- Or, as I suspect, when you say 'support', do you mean living your gaming life in GW's pocket; letting GW do and dictate everything for you; doing (or buying) whatever GW wants, every time GW churns out the same old thing but with worse rules and a bigger price; whether you like it or not, but certainly how GW likes it? Or at the very least going only for the most hyped and marketed games with the biggest, flashiest, crappiest rulebooks, as if this hobby is some miniature Hollywood where the only movies you can watch are the ones with most money thrown at them to make them shiny, like something by Michael Bay, or yet another big budget sequel of an old franchise that adds little but keeps flogging it as something new at full price anyway?
If 8th is seeming old and 9th doesn't appeal, this is a great point and opportunity to cast your eye to the real variety of wargaming. It goes way beyond Warmahordes, Infinity, FoW, and even KoW! But you have to be open to it, look at it with new eyes, and be genuine if something in it catches your eye that you want to present to your fellow drifting gamers. You can't pine for a new, great, alternative system after GW pees in your cornflakes, and then reject and bat away every one presented to you "er, because, um, reasons", because most of the reasons are bullgak issued from the bottom of a very comfortable rut. You won't consider them because you haven't heard of them!! What the... ... heck kind of excuse is that!? You never heard of Warhammer 'til you did, either! But if GW's big switch to 9th spoils your fun, you're not going to be able to fall back on Warhammer or GW's strict, enfeebling 'support' system.
I was in that boat meself, years ago, for other reasons. (Thank you for simultaneously heaving both SGs and Belfast veterans out of our very comfortable rut, GW.) I know what it's like; I'm not spouting crap from a position of no experience. We got together on gaming nights over kitchen tables. We formed the gaming groups. We found the other clubs and shops to meet at, and to meet new gamers at. We looked at new gaming systems and revisited old favourites, and still do. It wasn't always easy, certainly not as easy as turning up at the local GW for the gaming equivalent of speed dating, but it was far from the impossibility that some of you seem to think.
* As per his experience, I can't imagine never buying anything from a gaming store I'd frequent, because - and here's a novel idea for GW fans - I'm not physically shackled to one or even two games.
Charles Rampant wrote: Because we have not had that point made quite often enough in this thread. Could we stick to Warhammer, in the Warhammer thread?
- Will you have opponents? Will you be able to play them in GW stores? For the latter; obviously not. But then you're up a certain creek if you want to play any of GW's own games there, barring the current systems and editions.
For the former: I don't know. That's up to you. I can only point the games out to you. It's up to you to read the rules, check the reviews, look at the battle reports, and (heaven forfend) get someone else to spare a couple of hours with either their or one of your WFB armies. Maybe there's a local club or FLGS that isn't completely hung up on GW (they're getting more common, you know); especially excellent clubs like Eilif's or Auldgrump's that are open to KoW or similar, or great stores like Mikhaila's*, or somewhere you can rent table time even if there are no products you 'need'. (But heck, if you're playing in some version of the Warhammer background, and the shop stocks some Age of Sigmar minis you like the look of, and given that these open rulesets don't demand 40- and sometimes not even 20-strong units to play...) Maybe you could start your own club. Maybe not. I do know that all you really need is a set of minis (done), rules (free or cheap), a second warm body (if there was only some way to meet other gamers in this notoriously solitary hobby of ours, and some widely available and convenient communication network to keep in touch with them...), and a table, kitchen or otherwise. (I've spent most of my gaming hobby hunched over that variety of household furniture. And statistically, one out of every two gamers is unlikely to be homeless.)
- Or, as I suspect, when you say 'support', do you mean living your gaming life in GW's pocket; letting GW do and dictate everything for you; doing (or buying) whatever GW wants, every time GW churns out the same old thing but with worse rules and a bigger price; whether you like it or not, but certainly how GW likes it? Or at the very least going only for the most hyped and marketed games with the biggest, flashiest, crappiest rulebooks, as if this hobby is some miniature Hollywood where the only movies you can watch are the ones with most money thrown at them to make them shiny, like something by Michael Bay, or yet another big budget sequel of an old franchise that adds little but keeps flogging it as something new at full price anyway?
When i say support i mean ease of finding a game. Its much easier to find a game of either old hammer or KoW than any of the others put together. So why would I bother with any of them as replacements when old hammer and kow are good and far easier to find opponents for?
As for labelling me as some sort of gw fanboy you clearly dont know me very well! They are overpriced and over the last several years have been systematically destroying their own game. That doesnt stop the fact that old hammer and KoW are the only valid alternatives as they are both good and easier to find opponents for than all those other listed systems.
Stop moving goalposts, you asked for a list of alternates, Vermis provided you with that list, if you had further criteria you wished to add, you had your opportunity.
If you aren't prepared to put in the groundwork to make one of those alternates work, then that is your decision, but that has nothing to do with the question that was asked and answered in full.
Azreal13 wrote: Stop moving goalposts, you asked for a list of alternates, Vermis provided you with that list, if you had further criteria you wished to add, you had your opportunity.
If you aren't prepared to put in the groundwork to make one of those alternates work, then that is your decision, but that has nothing to do with the question that was asked and answered in full.
To be fair, I'd consider viability to be a fairly self-evident quality that someone would want in a game. It's technically possible for him to write his own ruleset from scratch, persuade his gaming group to play it, and eventually build it up on a local level to the point he could always be reasonably sure of finding a game using those rules, but it's not particularly likely and while it's very cool, vintage, and lens-free-thick-rim-specs to put someone down because they just want to go to a place and find a game in which to use their expensive models without having to become a full-time community organiser, that's also a great way to persuade people without the necessary time or inclination to simply stop playing wargames altogether.
The same applies for an existing, widely played game as it does for an obscure one or even a home brew ruleset. If it isn't played in the circles you inhabit, and you need to get it off the ground first.
The conversation went "there's plenty of other games" "yeah, well, name me some!" "Here's a long list of other games" "yeah, well nobody plays those!"
Nobody plays anything until somebody does, it doesn't invalidate their existence.
Vulcan wrote:
Ah... I play the game because it allows me to maneuver large units.
Plenty like that, that actually concentrate more on maneuvering large units than on the attacks and wounds and saves and rank bonuses of individual minis. ("Amazing facts! Did you know that other systems have infantry blocks that stick around and fight back without needing 'steadfast' and 'step up' rules tacked on?") The number of even just those that let you slot in your WFB minis might surprise you.
Do you have any idea how patronizing that sounds?
That, and because I can actually find people who play WFB, as opposed to (for example) KoW.
Give it time.
I am. Believe me, as soon as something else that appeases my desire to maneuver big blocks becomes big enough to get my local meta going, I'm there. GW has been less than satisfying thus far.
KOW went over like a lead balloon in the local group when I tried to get it going. Sigh.
If you have a handful of players you can probably call on to play you, I can heartily endorse writing your own rules.
I'm doing it with 40K at the moment, and while I harbour little hope of it ever being anything more than a personal exercise, it is deeply satisfying if only to prove to ones self that it is possible to improve on what GW have done, and to have done something other than complain to other people about it.
I'd rather not go into detail because there are people's jobs involved, but the sales staff here in the US has told independent retailers that all current army books would be defunct following Age of Sigmar and that they would not longer be supported in their current state.
I could not find out if this meant model lines would be discontinued too, but my understanding is that Age of Sigmar would be a ruleset intended for skirmish sized games that DOES contain rules for every current army. HOWEVER, it is not GWs intention to support some armies beyond AoS.
I don't know which armies will get new books and which wont, but this store owner was strongly advised not to order replacement stock for Lizardmen, Wood Elves and Tomb Kings -- those were the only ones I was told.
Wood Elves and Lizardmen just got those new big kits (I think last year?), it'd be crazy to think that they'd just drop them! The wood elves have always been one of the most attractive of the line, I thought, too... but maybe also one of the least protectable from an IP perspective? Since they're extremely Tolkien-esque.
I remember people commenting before they were updated that they might be one of the lesser selling lines, but I find that hard to believe given the beautiful models...
...this post not biased at all given that I was a wood elf player (actually all forest spirits, but still!).
RiTides wrote: Wood Elves and Lizardmen just got those new big kits (I think last year?), it'd be crazy to think that they'd just drop them! The wood elves have always been one of the most attractive of the line, I thought, too... but maybe also one of the least protectable from an IP perspective? Since they're extremely Tolkien-esque.
I remember people commenting before they were updated that they might be one of the lesser selling lines, but I find that hard to believe given the beautiful models...
...this post not biased at all given that I was a wood elf player (actually all forest spirits, but still!).
Thanks for passing that on, Auswin!
Lizards especially has never made sense to me. I'd think it would be one of their most-protectable IPs. This is pure speculation on my part, but I wonder if it's because we'll see an aesthetic shift (as has been rumored before). All three armies I noted would likely need the most work to pull them into a more modern setting than other forces.
again!
Fantasy is supposed to be one of 
. Apparently they were given the choice.
... heck kind of excuse is that!? You never heard of Warhammer 'til you did, either! But if 