Just because you like an edition better doesn't make it philosophically different. I have no idea how you imagine 3e or 5e as balanced. I tend to tend to think of 5e as glory days of the Grey Knights.
I actually like 7th more than any previous 40K edition I played frequently from 3rd-6th, in spite of its glaring flaws. My point was exactly that they were "philosophically different" - 2nd Ed 40K was a "miniatures first" game; a more modest scale, a focus on characters and cool out-there units, lots of pchew-pchew special psyker shenanigans and virus bombs. 3rd marked a distinct shift in priorities; streamlined rules(until they had one of their periodic personality-shifts halfway through the edition), a push for organised play, numerically larger armies with a bigger focus on "core" units like Tac Marines over big shiny fancy character models. They buggered it up of course, too much additional material and a few fun but poorly balanced codices caused issues. 4th Ed though was hardly a change in direction, indeed they doubled-down; even more focus on rules suitable for organised play, toning down(some would say to the point of making them flavourless) the more out-there factions like CSM. 5th seemed very much like an attempt to bring back some of the flavour without going totally overboard, until they threw that out the window again halfway through.
There's other products like Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Advanced Heroquest, Space Hulk, Hours Heresy (the box set without minis) and at one point Talisman, too. There are plenty of Specialist games you can point to. But other than Epic, all of these were minor endeavors that GW didn't pursue, I believe because they don't follow GW's vision of miniatures first. Even Epic, which was popular was abandoned.
An RPG & boxed/board games? Come on, at least try and address the point being made: lots of those "minor endeavours" were pet-projects of the same people writing the rules for the main games, and even if they were neglected and eventually abandoned by management they remained a big part of GW for over a decade.
Anyways, for a very long time, they've focused on building cool minis and then finding a way to insert it onto a game. Which is just fine with me. I would hate a GW that didn't make a model because it was disruptive to the game ecosystem.
They've always focused on that, but it's monstrously disingenuous to use that fact as the basis to claim the company has always been philosophically opposed to writing solid rules as well; just because you start with the model and then try and fit it into the game doesn't mean you have to have no regard for how it fits in and whether the way you're fitting it in is going to negatively affect the stability of the whole system. GW used to view the rules and the models as a symbiosis; the quality of one fed into the success of the other, it's only in the last few years that the company have institutionally abandoned any attempt to support the rules side of the hobby, and it's not been driven by some high-minded philosophical commitment to producing "the finest miniatures in the world" or whatever, it's due to piss-poor corporate management pushing away most of their good games developers, promoting people based on attitude not ability, and a focus on producing maximum short-term profit with minimum possible effort and expenditure with utter disregard for long-term viability.
Kirby & Co don't give a gak if AoS become a 30 year industry-defining product like WHFB, or even if it ends up as a renowned fan favourite like Epic, BFG, or Mordheim, all they care about is whether or not it will act as a cheap platform for them to prop up the financials for just a couple more years while they keep extracting the value out of the company in dividends.
Those are extra big dice, right? Upscaled to match the new minis right? They're not standard sized dice and thats not a tiny dice shaker for $40us, right?
Of course the symbols are on the ones. That's the only proper way to play GW games. If you're rolling higher numbers than you're a complete WAAC loser! Winning is rude.
Remember kids the only way to win at GW games is to lose.
Very interesting post by Tuomas Pirinen, former GW designer (Mordheim and many other things), now video game designer:
Tuomas Pirinen, Brutal Deluxe Game Design
WARHAMMER AGE OF SIGMAR -PRODUCT DECONSTRUCTION
OK, there is no way I can skip this, I've been buried with requests to write what I think about the new Warhammer: Age of Sigmar rules. Better get on with it then.
Disclaimer: all the thoughts and opinions here are my own, and do not reflect the official line of Games Workshop in any way, shape or form. I've not worked for GW in over a decade. I reserve the right to be completely wrong about this.
OVERVIEW AND PRODUCT STRATEGY
I've spent a fair amount of time reading the rules for Warhammer: the Age of Sigmar, and the associated War Scrolls, and I've gone through the miniatures range and the background.
Key takeaways: Free, much streamlined rules with visually stunning (if 40K-ish) models that are very expensive speaks to me of a strategy: with these rules, many more new people can try the game and grasp the rules rapidly. Some of those will like the game, and a portion will be able to afford the cost associated with it, and without points limits on the armies, they can spend as little or as much as they wish on the game.
I see that the new miniature range will attract many collectors, and perhaps a fewer gamers -possibly a valid approach, business-wise.
All in all this targets a very particular kind of consumer: Wealthy, social, and focused on collectability of very high-quality designs -very much the Apple tactic. It is a huge gamble to see if this is new direction works. It may also be that a completely new world will allow GW to target a new breed of gamers not exposed to Warhammer before.
To understand the shift in the game it is important to see that many things are in play here that your average hobbyist does not need to care about: the shelf space in the shops (Warhammer always took massive amount of space), the spiralling cost associated with making a physical product, the intense competition from both physical and digital games and the rise of 3D printing in the near future.
MINIATURES
When it comes to miniature sculpting, the rigid unit hierarchy of classic Warhammer limits them, which was always problem when compared to 40K. Thus I am not surprised to see the round bases and much larger models with far more articulation. They are eye-catching and have been made with collectability in mind. They also are so complex that the immediate danger of 3D printing will have been averted at least for a while.
Overall, many of the miniatures are stunningly well made, and I doubt another company can match the sheer intricate detail of these anytime soon. Whatever people like the designs themselves is another matter, but they do that that modern western design vibe. As always, a matter of taste.
THE RULES
The rules themselves have some very nifty ideas, and I am happy that some of the show real creativity and opportunities for interesting situations during game. I do like some of the risk/reward elements such as the charging rules. Some I do not understand, like gaining a major bonus if you won your previous match whenever that may have been. This sets off the game skewered towards one side.
In general, the new rules are streamlined, short, easy-to-absorb and will lead into quite straightforward games. Without tactical maneuvering and flank/back bonuses, the games will most likely become immense killing grounds in the middle, with one side completely wiped out, and the result having a lot to do with luck. I also see some worrying opportunities for cheating, especially with customizing models for extra reach. But I honestly also see a lot of opportunity for fun and tense moments too, in a casual gaming sort of way.
And those dreaded dancing rules... I am personally not a designer that likes to enforce the players to dance, sing or shout during a game: many gamers are introverted, or have disabilities or health conditions that do not allow them to perform a cha-cha-cha moves in the middle of the game. I see the wish to make Warhammer more social, but I would not have gone this way myself: rather, I would have given the players other rewards than game bonuses for awkward behavior.
All in all, the rules are simplified, streamlined, and clearly aimed at getting as many new people as possible to try out the rules.
THE WARHAMMER WORLD
I am of course sad to see Warhammer world go, as it was a labor of love for so many people for so many years, including me. It is one of the most iconic and enduring fantasy worlds ever created. But I do see some of the logic: the Warhammer world was complete, and a low-fantasy world. In order to bring more fantastical creatures and new armies (without making it impossible to fit all the new models into the Warhammer shops) a clean slate was the easy way forward. Personally hard for me to see, but if the gamble pays off it might well be worth it for GW.
I also hazard a guess that there will be a more advanced ruleset for more tactical and strategic players who have outgrown the 4-page rules. I especially think we will see supplements for magic. Without any further rules development, I am not sure about the longevity of the game. Easy-to-pick-up, difficult-to-master is the Holy Grail of the game design, and I am not quite sure these rules are there yet. To keep customers returning, games need long-term engagement, and that requires more depth to delve into. I think we will see this in the coming months.
CLOSING THOUGHTS
As always, I wish GW and its staff the greatest of success -the livelihood of many families depends on It. Many fantastically talented people work at the Studio and beyond whom I respect more than words can say. I see Age of Sigmar as a huge gamble, and it will be interesting to see if it pays off. I also feel that it may have been a gamble they had to take in one form or another. We might see a smaller playerbase, but very lucrative one to emerge from these rules and miniatures.
Lastly, I want to say this. If you enjoy the new rules and models, hold your head up high: every gamer has the right to like whatever they damn well please. But respect the old guard, they built the hobby into what it is today.
If you don't like the rules, I absolutely get it. Please don't take it out on the people that do like them. As gamers we've never had as much choice and quality to choose from. when it comes to our gaming. Thoughtful critique and discussion wins over bitterness every time.
Torga_DW wrote: Those are extra big dice, right? Upscaled to match the new minis right? They're not standard sized dice and thats not a tiny dice shaker for $40us, right?
You forget that it's a world's finest collectable dice shaker. For rolling more than 5 dice at a time, you are supposed to buy multiple fine collectable shakers. Although I anticipate that the next version of AoS will include a rule to 'simply put dice on the table any way you want'
So $50 for the generic hammer dudes, and $33 for the leader dude.
Yeah.
OK
No.
I bought 5 White Dwarves, got the hammer guys and am selling the magazines off for a couple bucks each. This way at least I get one unit on the cheap.
And four other people get zero White Dwarfs! Hooray!
Yes, I'm bitter that I was in 5 stores in two cities and the internet and could find exactly zero non-ebay copies. Spend half my Saturday walking from nerd store to nerd store in the burning sun and just.couldn't.get.one. The first WD mini I don't have since 1998. End of an era. At least one store kept a copy and will let me look at the painting guide
Lt. Donomar StubbornBull wrote: It seems instead of addressing this issue they are ploughing ahead with further steep pricing..sigh
But now you can play the game just fine with a dozen models. Which has always been the favorite excuse of posters promoting games that are even more expensive per model, but require a smaller force.
Lt. Donomar StubbornBull wrote: It seems instead of addressing this issue they are ploughing ahead with further steep pricing..sigh
But now you can play the game just fine with a dozen models. Which has always been the favorite excuse of posters promoting games that are even more expensive per model, but require a smaller force.
Yeah, lol -- I was waiting for this one
Lower model count game = more expensive per model. It was always ok for WMH to be expensive per model, right?
Well Warmachine gets cheaper when they (re-)release a model in a cheaper material. New hps plastic battle engines are not even 2/3 of the metal/resin ones. So the prices go DOWN.
Mymearan wrote: Very interesting post by Tuomas Pirinen, former GW designer (Mordheim and many other things), now video game designer:
Spoiler:
Tuomas Pirinen, Brutal Deluxe Game Design
WARHAMMER AGE OF SIGMAR -PRODUCT DECONSTRUCTION
OK, there is no way I can skip this, I've been buried with requests to write what I think about the new Warhammer: Age of Sigmar rules. Better get on with it then.
Disclaimer: all the thoughts and opinions here are my own, and do not reflect the official line of Games Workshop in any way, shape or form. I've not worked for GW in over a decade. I reserve the right to be completely wrong about this.
OVERVIEW AND PRODUCT STRATEGY
I've spent a fair amount of time reading the rules for Warhammer: the Age of Sigmar, and the associated War Scrolls, and I've gone through the miniatures range and the background.
Key takeaways: Free, much streamlined rules with visually stunning (if 40K-ish) models that are very expensive speaks to me of a strategy: with these rules, many more new people can try the game and grasp the rules rapidly. Some of those will like the game, and a portion will be able to afford the cost associated with it, and without points limits on the armies, they can spend as little or as much as they wish on the game.
I see that the new miniature range will attract many collectors, and perhaps a fewer gamers -possibly a valid approach, business-wise.
All in all this targets a very particular kind of consumer: Wealthy, social, and focused on collectability of very high-quality designs -very much the Apple tactic. It is a huge gamble to see if this is new direction works. It may also be that a completely new world will allow GW to target a new breed of gamers not exposed to Warhammer before.
To understand the shift in the game it is important to see that many things are in play here that your average hobbyist does not need to care about: the shelf space in the shops (Warhammer always took massive amount of space), the spiralling cost associated with making a physical product, the intense competition from both physical and digital games and the rise of 3D printing in the near future.
MINIATURES
When it comes to miniature sculpting, the rigid unit hierarchy of classic Warhammer limits them, which was always problem when compared to 40K. Thus I am not surprised to see the round bases and much larger models with far more articulation. They are eye-catching and have been made with collectability in mind. They also are so complex that the immediate danger of 3D printing will have been averted at least for a while.
Overall, many of the miniatures are stunningly well made, and I doubt another company can match the sheer intricate detail of these anytime soon. Whatever people like the designs themselves is another matter, but they do that that modern western design vibe. As always, a matter of taste.
THE RULES
The rules themselves have some very nifty ideas, and I am happy that some of the show real creativity and opportunities for interesting situations during game. I do like some of the risk/reward elements such as the charging rules. Some I do not understand, like gaining a major bonus if you won your previous match whenever that may have been. This sets off the game skewered towards one side.
In general, the new rules are streamlined, short, easy-to-absorb and will lead into quite straightforward games. Without tactical maneuvering and flank/back bonuses, the games will most likely become immense killing grounds in the middle, with one side completely wiped out, and the result having a lot to do with luck. I also see some worrying opportunities for cheating, especially with customizing models for extra reach. But I honestly also see a lot of opportunity for fun and tense moments too, in a casual gaming sort of way.
And those dreaded dancing rules... I am personally not a designer that likes to enforce the players to dance, sing or shout during a game: many gamers are introverted, or have disabilities or health conditions that do not allow them to perform a cha-cha-cha moves in the middle of the game. I see the wish to make Warhammer more social, but I would not have gone this way myself: rather, I would have given the players other rewards than game bonuses for awkward behavior.
All in all, the rules are simplified, streamlined, and clearly aimed at getting as many new people as possible to try out the rules.
THE WARHAMMER WORLD
I am of course sad to see Warhammer world go, as it was a labor of love for so many people for so many years, including me. It is one of the most iconic and enduring fantasy worlds ever created. But I do see some of the logic: the Warhammer world was complete, and a low-fantasy world. In order to bring more fantastical creatures and new armies (without making it impossible to fit all the new models into the Warhammer shops) a clean slate was the easy way forward. Personally hard for me to see, but if the gamble pays off it might well be worth it for GW.
I also hazard a guess that there will be a more advanced ruleset for more tactical and strategic players who have outgrown the 4-page rules. I especially think we will see supplements for magic. Without any further rules development, I am not sure about the longevity of the game. Easy-to-pick-up, difficult-to-master is the Holy Grail of the game design, and I am not quite sure these rules are there yet. To keep customers returning, games need long-term engagement, and that requires more depth to delve into. I think we will see this in the coming months.
CLOSING THOUGHTS
As always, I wish GW and its staff the greatest of success -the livelihood of many families depends on It. Many fantastically talented people work at the Studio and beyond whom I respect more than words can say. I see Age of Sigmar as a huge gamble, and it will be interesting to see if it pays off. I also feel that it may have been a gamble they had to take in one form or another. We might see a smaller playerbase, but very lucrative one to emerge from these rules and miniatures.
Lastly, I want to say this. If you enjoy the new rules and models, hold your head up high: every gamer has the right to like whatever they damn well please. But respect the old guard, they built the hobby into what it is today.
If you don't like the rules, I absolutely get it. Please don't take it out on the people that do like them. As gamers we've never had as much choice and quality to choose from. when it comes to our gaming. Thoughtful critique and discussion wins over bitterness every time.
What a great few words about the game. Thanks for sharing!
I particularly like his closing thoughts:
Lastly, I want to say this. If you enjoy the new rules and models, hold your head up high: every gamer has the right to like whatever they damn well please. But respect the old guard, they built the hobby into what it is today.
If you don't like the rules, I absolutely get it. Please don't take it out on the people that do like them. As gamers we've never had as much choice and quality to choose from. when it comes to our gaming. Thoughtful critique and discussion wins over bitterness every time.
Lt. Donomar StubbornBull wrote: It seems instead of addressing this issue they are ploughing ahead with further steep pricing..sigh
But now you can play the game just fine with a dozen models. Which has always been the favorite excuse of posters promoting games that are even more expensive per model, but require a smaller force.
Whilst that is true, low model count games also usually feature much more detailed models - see Confrontation, Hell Dorado, Infinity etc. The bland plastic guys from this game don't compare.
What a great few words about the game. Thanks for sharing!
I particularly like his closing thoughts:
Lastly, I want to say this. If you enjoy the new rules and models, hold your head up high: every gamer has the right to like whatever they damn well please. But respect the old guard, they built the hobby into what it is today.
If you don't like the rules, I absolutely get it. Please don't take it out on the people that do like them. As gamers we've never had as much choice and quality to choose from. when it comes to our gaming. Thoughtful critique and discussion wins over bitterness every time.
Yeah that's pretty much one of the most human responses to AoS I've read so far.
Lt. Donomar StubbornBull wrote: It seems instead of addressing this issue they are ploughing ahead with further steep pricing..sigh
But now you can play the game just fine with a dozen models. Which has always been the favorite excuse of posters promoting games that are even more expensive per model, but require a smaller force.
Lt. Donomar StubbornBull wrote: It seems instead of addressing this issue they are ploughing ahead with further steep pricing..sigh
But now you can play the game just fine with a dozen models. Which has always been the favorite excuse of posters promoting games that are even more expensive per model, but require a smaller force.
Whilst that is true, low model count games also usually feature much more detailed models - see Confrontation, Hell Dorado, Infinity etc. The bland plastic guys from this game don't compare.
That's a matter of taste really; I don't find them particularly appealing as Fantasy models, but I can see myriad uses for them for 40K conversions(which was likely a factor in their design), and by the same token you couldn't pay me to spend hobby time on the pseudo-anime style of Infinity as it just doesn't appeal to me.
As for the price; while I agree it's dismaying to see GW still cacking the bed when it comes to the cost of bigger games, to be fair to them(ugh, yep, I just threw up in my mouth a little) the Sigmarines will likely end up being a 5-man box of Terminator-scale 40mm base models with a range of weapon options, and they're priced at exactly the same cost as a box of standard Terminators that don't even get multiple loadouts in the box just a couple of extra bitz. Of course, all of GW's models are hilariously overcosted given they're mass-produced plastic, but at least with the Sigmarines they're not gouging folk any more than they usually do.
For what it's worth, the anime stuff is mostly gone from Infinity, it's more sleek high scifi now. It was mostly the older stuff that was more overtly anime.
RoninXiC wrote: Well Warmachine gets cheaper when they (re-)release a model in a cheaper material. New hps plastic battle engines are not even 2/3 of the metal/resin ones. So the prices go DOWN.
Warhammer goes upppppp.
The prices are STILL more expensive, though.
For example, black dragons (30mm base khador infantry), were recently released in plastic and cost $60 for a box of 10. and are no better than box-of-10 GW models, like Kabalites or BA Tacticals.
From a technical, plastic model perspective, PP plastic models are only a little better than their metal counterparts (some people might argue a little worse, but I disagree). GW plastic models, on the other hand, are MILES better than GW's metal counterparts. Yes, someone may like the sculpt of X metal librarian than Y plastic librarian, but put the unpainted model side-by-side and look at how much better -- crisper and smoother -- the material is. It doesn't even come close.
Anyways, most of the PP new models are still metal or metal + resin, and they as expensive or more expensive than GW models. That doesn't even get to the real crux of it from a modelling perspective -- put them side-by-side, and any GW plastic kit produced in the last 5 years will blow a PP plastic kit out of the water.
Either way, it's no longer a valid argument to say, "AoS is a more expensive game than WMH". Toss in any model count, and they're competitive now, with AoS probably being a little cheaper. PP character models they are just as or more expensive than GW clampack solos, and PP "grunts" are pretty much all more expensive than comparable GW multimodel kits.
Of course, this comes with the usual caveat: they're different games! Buy whichever models appeal to you, play whichever game you like. Or, since you need less than 40 models anyways, just buy and play both, and make armies for both.
In AoS, if you use the starter kit models, it's silly cheap. Likewise, if you buy a WMH battle box, it's a great deal. But assuming you're not, and you just want to buy models a la carte, even at a price of $10 a model, a 30-model army is just $300 undiscounted and the rules are free. Given that either PP or GW models can be usually had for 25% or more off, the whole game with the army (for either WMH or AoS) is barely over $200. If you want a super duper premium gigantor model like a Bloodthirster or a Colossal, add another hundred bucks or so. No big deal, right?
filbert wrote: Damning with faint praise from Tuomas Pirinen IMO
That's the conclusion I reached as well. Coming on top of Rick P's assessment, you can tell that the old designers are glad they jumped ship years ago.
Model-count is a hard way to judge a game. There were sub-20 models Chaos armies for earlier WHFB even after a general increase in body count. Someone even mentioned in an AoS thread playing a 2000 pts Chaos list with 16 models in 6th edition. (I would *love* to see a few good examples of such lists to make a nice little display "legacy" army, btw)
I look back at 5th edition an I love what I see. Small units, but still blocks of them and not hundreds ofnmodels per army. It looks like a small, well, army, but individual models don't start to blurr together while gazing over hordes of tiny dudes. 4x4 regiments look best, IMO, but the command models not fitting symmetrically is annoying. 5x5 has perfect grunt-CSM-grunt symmetry, but doesn't look as nice. I geuss I'm a weird in-betweener.
I think we've been over this:
Yes, PP games are expensive. On a per-model basis they are in line with old WHFB. Unless we start cherrypicking, in which case the whole discussion becomes asinine.
Age of Sigmar is shaping up to be more expensive than WHFB, which means it is a skirmish game that is more expensive than other skirmish games, meaning we are back to square one. People said that WHFB prices were high, but acceptable for a lower model-count game. Predictably, the prices for AoS seem to be higher than for WHFB.
Binabik15 wrote: Model-count is a hard way to judge a game. There were sub-20 models Chaos armies for earlier WHFB even after a general increase in body count. Someone even mentioned in an AoS thread playing a 2000 pts Chaos list with 16 models in 6th edition. (I would *love* to see a few good examples of such lists to make a nice little display "legacy" army, btw)
I look back at 5th edition an I love what I see. Small units, but still blocks of them and not hundreds ofnmodels per army. It looks like a small, well, army, but individual models don't start to blurr together while gazing over hordes of tiny dudes. 4x4 regiments look best, IMO, but the command models not fitting symmetrically is annoying. 5x5 has perfect grunt-CSM-grunt symmetry, but doesn't look as nice. I geuss I'm a weird in-betweener.
In previous editions of WHFB, a Chaos lord, with mark of khorne, a magic weapon, and on a chariot pulled by juggernauts, could easily cost around 1000 points. Those were the days
Smaller model count games usually also have nuanced rules to make sure those few models create complex game-interactions. (malifaux)
AoS has a small model count.. but the rules are so simple (and usually don't function correctly) and without nuance I can't see any difference between AoS with 10 models and AoS with 200 models. Move forward, roll dice, deal with random charts. Maybe win, maybe lose!
filbert wrote: Damning with faint praise from Tuomas Pirinen IMO
That's the conclusion I reached as well. Coming on top of Rick P's assessment, you can tell that the old designers are glad they jumped ship years ago.
Lt. Donomar StubbornBull wrote: It seems instead of addressing this issue they are ploughing ahead with further steep pricing..sigh
But now you can play the game just fine with a dozen models. Which has always been the favorite excuse of posters promoting games that are even more expensive per model, but require a smaller force.
Whilst that is true, low model count games also usually feature much more detailed models - see Confrontation, Hell Dorado, Infinity etc. The bland plastic guys from this game don't compare.
The also feature much more detailed rules so that using your one model at a time is actually interesting. Look at Malifaux and Infinity with their opposed rolls/duels, Malifauxs suit triggers and Infinitys ARO mechanic.
Saying Age of Sigmar works with a low model count so the model price is justified just like other games is disengenuous at best. You know it's designed for larger games. That's why the rules are so simplified. It's mising the point of the game playing it with a small force as much as it's missing the point of Infinity or Malifaux playing them with large forces.
40k and WHFB can be played at 500pts with a single character and about 20 other models. It doesn't mean it was designed or intended to play at that scale.
oh this whole mess makes sense now, AoS is actually a social partygame for the after hours...
phew.. and here I thought GW was giving us another Tabletop with bad rules.
filbert wrote: Damning with faint praise from Tuomas Pirinen IMO
That's the conclusion I reached as well. Coming on top of Rick P's assessment, you can tell that the old designers are glad they jumped ship years ago.
Rick P on AoS? got a link?
I dunno if this is what he/she is pertaining to, but Rick Priestly wrote the foreword of Mantic's upcoming KoW rulebook. Quotes from him:
“When asked to write these few introductory words I hardly expected to find myself writing the foreword to what is undoubtedly now the most popular mass-battle fantasy game on the market!”
“Many converts have found themselves won over by a mixture of solid game play, straight-forward but elegant mechanics, and an approach to development that plainly puts the player first.”
“Well done especially to its creator and designer Alessio Cavatore. I have worked together with Alessio on many gaming projects over the years, both historical and fantasy, and have always appreciated his clear and focussed approach to game design, instinct for uncluttered rules, and – most of all – boundless and unquenchable enthusiasm for games and gaming.”
Also, from an interview a while back:
Spoiler:
“Blimey you turn your back for a day or two! I worked for GW (Citadel in Newark and then GW at Eastwood and Nottingham) for 28 years, and the company changed a great deal over that time, but we always aimed at making money. I can just about remember the days when making money was about having enough in the bank at the end of the month to cover our wages – I don’t know if that was ever literally true – but it certainly came across that way! We also enjoyed what we were doing! We enjoyed games and gaming and – of course – the models that went with that. The big recent change is that GW has actually stated – both during the Chapter House court hearing and subsequently to its shareholders – that it considers its market to be collectors of models and not gamers. The games are very much played down internally, and you can see with the latest (very nicely done!) models that they are conceived as collectors pieces that have very little practicality in terms of a wargame. It’s perfectly fine for GW to turn its backs upon wargaming in favour of modelling and collecting if that is the vision of the current management. But the result is that many customers who are or have been passionate about GW’s games do feel marginalized.
I should add that we always used to maintain a games design department that was fairly heavy weight – smart guys, some of them rebarbative, bloody-minded and mildly dangerous types (dangerous to themselves on occasion). I won’t say who it was… but one of our staff once ran back into the burning building he’d just been rescued from by the fire brigade to recover his ‘stash’ from the flames! The design team has been run down over the years – the guys who work there now are just not doing the same sort of work and they’re not the same sort of people. Probably for the best
I think that is the danger Rob – well not literally fridges to motorcyclists! – but betting the company on the assumption that the market is primarily collectors and not gamers is a big gamble isn’t it! In the short term it will work because so many gamers are loyal to the backgrounds and to what is left of the games range (that’ll be 40K then). The large, very nicely done, collectors style pieces generate good sales at high margins. I would expect to see an improvement in full year performance under their new CEO – and maybe even a dividend! Long term though… if GW is sincere about changing its market stance (and does not lose its bottle and start to back track – which is still possible) it opens up the market to any number of new companies that are interested in games, gaming and gamers! That won’t do GW any harm so long as they are determined to abandon that market – and it would leave them to concentrate on a mixture of high price highly profitable collectibles and licensing its IP out into other media – always something I felt was under exploited due to fear of losing control at the top of the business. But what do I know
Well I’m touched by all the thank yous! So let me add my own. Thank you for making it possible for me and so many of my comrades to earn a living doing something we love – there’s not many people get that chance – and I remain eternally grateful.”
Binabik15 wrote: Model-count is a hard way to judge a game. There were sub-20 models Chaos armies for earlier WHFB even after a general increase in body count. Someone even mentioned in an AoS thread playing a 2000 pts Chaos list with 16 models in 6th edition. (I would *love* to see a few good examples of such lists to make a nice little display "legacy" army, btw)
I look back at 5th edition an I love what I see. Small units, but still blocks of them and not hundreds ofnmodels per army. It looks like a small, well, army, but individual models don't start to blurr together while gazing over hordes of tiny dudes. 4x4 regiments look best, IMO, but the command models not fitting symmetrically is annoying. 5x5 has perfect grunt-CSM-grunt symmetry, but doesn't look as nice. I geuss I'm a weird in-betweener.
In previous editions of WHFB, a Chaos lord, with mark of khorne, a magic weapon, and on a chariot pulled by juggernauts, could easily cost around 1000 points. Those were the days
Don't make me look for my Hydra Sword.
No, I meant post-Ravening Hordes, when armies were big already. I don't have the skills to make a good low-model 2000 points Chaos list that would WORK if we decide to play 6th or 7th edition, though, because we played mostly Specialist Games and sub-2000 points games.
Now such a list sounds like a great "list" for AoS as well, should that turn out somewhat entertaining at least. And the modelling aspect of a band of higly detailed individuals facing an army fascinated me ever since I played the Seven Heroes scenario. So, if someone had a good list or a link to one, PM me, please.
More on topic: Just had the delivery address changed for my preorder of AoS to my dorm, I might not be able to visit my family or my GF due to cramming, but at least I'll have some plastic to work on when my eyes are tired and my head hurts and I should go to bed instead
notprop wrote: I think that it is usually the other way but by all means feel free to give an example?
What do you mean? Any PP unit that used to be metal that they now make in plastic is cheaper than the metal was, significantly. I mean you could argue that the material isn't as good... But then look at GW and finecast, a cheaper, inferior material, and they jacked the prices up for anything converted from metal to finecast.
Do we really need to turn this thread into yet another PP vs GW nonsense? It's almost as tedious and ultimately as pointless as the Sega vs Nintendo arguments years ago.
Kirasu wrote: Smaller model count games usually also have nuanced rules to make sure those few models create complex game-interactions. (malifaux)
AoS has a small model count.. but the rules are so simple (and usually don't function correctly) and without nuance I can't see any difference between AoS with 10 models and AoS with 200 models. Move forward, roll dice, deal with random charts. Maybe win, maybe lose!
AoS with 10 generic infantry is as nuanced as Warmachine with 10 generic infantry. AoS with 10 heroes is as nuanced as Warmachine with 10 solos.
I do love how "Other games are justified in charging more per model because you need fewer models" has now mutated into "Other games are justified in charging more per model because they have better rules"
notprop wrote: I think that it is usually the other way but by all means feel free to give an example?
What do you mean? Any PP unit that used to be metal that they now make in plastic is cheaper than the metal was, significantly. I mean you could argue that the material isn't as good... But then look at GW and finecast, a cheaper, inferior material, and they jacked the prices up for anything converted from metal to finecast.
GW also reduced prices of anything converted into plastic except the character clampacks and barely ever gets credit for it. GW kits containing oodles of extra bits was also never seen as a legit reason for higher prices by PP fans, but they were happy to use it as an excuse for PP raising prices when they switched to plastic at least in some cases (Cryx bonejacks!)
Includes all the variants of the Liberators, the Celestant, and a ton of assorted pictures of them "in action".
Pics
Spoiler:
Looks to be 5 Liberators to a box, with sword or hammer options (2-handers of each for the champions). Am I the only one who thinks the starter kit ones actually look far better in terms of posing ect?
filbert wrote: Do we really need to turn this thread into yet another PP vs GW nonsense? It's almost as tedious and ultimately as pointless as the Sega vs Nintendo arguments years ago.
Yeah, but Nintendo won out in the end. Maybe they weren't that pointless?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Combat gauge? Looks like a key ring
filbert wrote: Do we really need to turn this thread into yet another PP vs GW nonsense? It's almost as tedious and ultimately as pointless as the Sega vs Nintendo arguments years ago.
Yeah, but Nintendo won out in the end. Maybe they weren't that pointless?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Combat gauge? Looks like a key ring
like warmachine key from warmachine:quick measuring set
Includes all the variants of the Liberators, the Celestant, and a ton of assorted pictures of them "in action".
Pics
Spoiler:
Looks to be 5 Liberators to a box, with sword or hammer options (2-handers of each for the champions). Am I the only one who thinks the starter kit ones actually look far better in terms of posing ect?
I'm not sure about that, we're missing the opposite page from the initial photo I think. It might be a box of 10.
Binabik15 wrote: Model-count is a hard way to judge a game. There were sub-20 models Chaos armies for earlier WHFB even after a general increase in body count. Someone even mentioned in an AoS thread playing a 2000 pts Chaos list with 16 models in 6th edition. (I would *love* to see a few good examples of such lists to make a nice little display "legacy" army, btw)
I look back at 5th edition an I love what I see. Small units, but still blocks of them and not hundreds ofnmodels per army. It looks like a small, well, army, but individual models don't start to blurr together while gazing over hordes of tiny dudes. 4x4 regiments look best, IMO, but the command models not fitting symmetrically is annoying. 5x5 has perfect grunt-CSM-grunt symmetry, but doesn't look as nice. I geuss I'm a weird in-betweener.
In previous editions of WHFB, a Chaos lord, with mark of khorne, a magic weapon, and on a chariot pulled by juggernauts, could easily cost around 1000 points. Those were the days
Don't make me look for my Hydra Sword.
No, I meant post-Ravening Hordes, when armies were big already. I don't have the skills to make a good low-model 2000 points Chaos list that would WORK if we decide to play 6th or 7th edition, though, because we played mostly Specialist Games and sub-2000 points games.
Now such a list sounds like a great "list" for AoS as well, should that turn out somewhat entertaining at least. And the modelling aspect of a band of higly detailed individuals facing an army fascinated me ever since I played the Seven Heroes scenario. So, if someone had a good list or a link to one, PM me, please.
More on topic: Just had the delivery address changed for my preorder of AoS to my dorm, I might not be able to visit my family or my GF due to cramming, but at least I'll have some plastic to work on when my eyes are tired and my head hurts and I should go to bed instead
filbert wrote: Do we really need to turn this thread into yet another PP vs GW nonsense? It's almost as tedious and ultimately as pointless as the Sega vs Nintendo arguments years ago.
Yeah, but Nintendo won out in the end. Maybe they weren't that pointless?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Combat gauge? Looks like a key ring
like warmachine key from warmachine:quick measuring set
Looks to be 5 Liberators to a box, with sword or hammer options (2-handers of each for the champions). Am I the only one who thinks the starter kit ones actually look far better in terms of posing ect?
I'm not sure about that, we're missing the opposite page from the initial photo I think. It might be a box of 10.
"This lack of balance in Age of Sigmar is a myth. If your opponent places a Bloodthirster on the table, make sure the next unit you place is something to deal with it. It's highly unlikely your opponent will keep placing Bloodthirsters."
Hammers are the new purity seals, and I'm totally okay with that lol
I hope the Lord Celestant has some helmet options though. I like the base one they have, but I'd like an unhelmeted variant or something. I guess maybe the Sigmarite legions are supposed to be faceless though.
What a great few words about the game. Thanks for sharing!
I particularly like his closing thoughts:
Lastly, I want to say this. If you enjoy the new rules and models, hold your head up high: every gamer has the right to like whatever they damn well please. But respect the old guard, they built the hobby into what it is today.
If you don't like the rules, I absolutely get it. Please don't take it out on the people that do like them. As gamers we've never had as much choice and quality to choose from. when it comes to our gaming. Thoughtful critique and discussion wins over bitterness every time.
Yeah that's pretty much one of the most human responses to AoS I've read so far.
If by human you mean non-committal and scared of rocking the boat, yes. It could just as easily read 'people who like balanced, competitive games should hold their head up high and others shouldn't whinge at them for being waacers'.
As has been pointed out $50 for 5 40mm sized models is inline with their current pricing for their 40k line for models being sold that were currently released a decade ago. It's also cheaper than equivelant models (5 BA Terminators) that were recently released. It's actually cheaper than some of their end time pricing (i.e. Blightkings & Wrathmongers) for equivelant fantasy offerings.
Not saying $50 isn't expensive but it's not like GW is sneaking in a price increase. The price increase seems to be on the not needed but cool accessories (if that's your thing) or the help eliminate extra steps painting items.
Hammers are the new purity seals, and I'm totally okay with that lol
I hope the Lord Celestant has some helmet options though. I like the base one they have, but I'd like an unhelmeted variant or something. I guess maybe the Sigmarite legions are supposed to be faceless though.
I've got a feeling they probably don't have pretty faces, or else we'd have seen some unhelmeted ones. That model looks ace!
As has been pointed out $50 for 5 40mm sized models is inline with their current pricing for their 40k line for models being sold that were currently released a decade ago. It's also cheaper than equivelant models (5 BA Terminators) that were recently released. It's actually cheaper than some of their end time pricing (i.e. Blightkings & Wrathmongers) for equivelant fantasy offerings.
Not saying $50 isn't expensive but it's not like GW is sneaking in a price increase. The price increase seems to be on the not needed but cool accessories (if that's your thing) or the help eliminate extra steps painting items.
Yeah, I agree with you. But for a new army being launched, presumably as a way to get new players in it's kind of ridiculous.
As has been pointed out $50 for 5 40mm sized models is inline with their current pricing for their 40k line for models being sold that were currently released a decade ago. It's also cheaper than equivelant models (5 BA Terminators) that were recently released. It's actually cheaper than some of their end time pricing (i.e. Blightkings & Wrathmongers) for equivelant fantasy offerings.
Not saying $50 isn't expensive but it's not like GW is sneaking in a price increase. The price increase seems to be on the not needed but cool accessories (if that's your thing) or the help eliminate extra steps painting items.
Yeah, I agree with you. But for a new army being launched, presumably as a way to get new players in it's kind of ridiculous.
Indeed--but it makes Age of Sigmar a hell of a lot better deal.
10x Liberators with Hammers/Shields would come out to $100 by themselves in a $125 box.
I'm curious as to whether or not there will be an "army box" of some kind.
Includes all the variants of the Liberators, the Celestant, and a ton of assorted pictures of them "in action".
Pics
Spoiler:
Looks to be 5 Liberators to a box, with sword or hammer options (2-handers of each for the champions). Am I the only one who thinks the starter kit ones actually look far better in terms of posing ect?
No, I'm with you. Not as drastic a difference as the Dark Vengeance Chosen to all (C)SM kits, but the starter ones have a nice "soulless, uncaring automaton" thing going for them. That's why I like their gold paintjob as well, because there are som God of War concept paintings for the animated statues enemies that I just *love*. The multi-part ones seem awkwardly posed, but maybe veteran kitbashers will do extremely impressive stuff with them, who knows.
Bits sites also have them for 15 pounds for ten from the starter, so LOL at GW prices, No matter how expensive Termis are.
PS: I hope dwarfs (or whatever they're called now) won't begrude the Sigmarines stealing their "hammer beard" idea. That the Sigmarines can'T grow manly beards and have to hang them on their cloaks might console them a bit
As has been pointed out $50 for 5 40mm sized models is inline with their current pricing for their 40k line for models being sold that were currently released a decade ago. It's also cheaper than equivelant models (5 BA Terminators) that were recently released. It's actually cheaper than some of their end time pricing (i.e. Blightkings & Wrathmongers) for equivelant fantasy offerings.
Not saying $50 isn't expensive but it's not like GW is sneaking in a price increase. The price increase seems to be on the not needed but cool accessories (if that's your thing) or the help eliminate extra steps painting items.
Yeah, I agree with you. But for a new army being launched, presumably as a way to get new players in it's kind of ridiculous.
Not really ridiculous. The starter is to get people in. Army units are priced like army units. Also, what Kan said. Starter set looks better at those prices (maybe you buy one box for the sergeant weapon options) and starter sets have the added advantage of people providing stuff for their friends to play with. Basically how we used to sell the Two Towers starter when Return of the King was out. It was basically almost the cost for the starter as one sides worth of figures so we moved more starters.
Overall the price seems fine for the unit. Now the accessories price is plain silly but they aren't needed to play the game and some collectors out there will love them and grab them so good on them.
Are the sigmarines you buy separately more posable than the starter stuff? like how space marines have separate torsos and legs and stuff? And separate shoulder pads? or do we not know yet?
Necros wrote: Are the sigmarines you buy separately more posable than the starter stuff? like how space marines have separate torsos and legs and stuff? And separate shoulder pads? or do we not know yet?
We don't know yet, but I definitely think its a safe assumption because every starter set figure compared to army box figures do that.
And as the "flag ship army" of AOS, they'd be stupid to not take advantage of one of the things they're known for.
I don't think the lack of a points system is going to be a problem for the new players GW is targeting. They will play the scenarios in the books. As for the veterans, GW probably assumes that they are experienced miniature gamers and capable of coming up with their own scenarios. Just goes to show how little GW knows about their customers.
I do think this will backfire on them a little if Age of Sigmar does become popular. Once you teach people that it is okay to write their own scenarios, it isn't a big step from there to writing your own terrain Warscrolls, at which point you don't need to buy the GW brand terrain.
For example, the "Walls and Fences" terrain says " consists of four walls, five fences and a pair of signposts". If that had a points value, you'd pretty much have to buy the GW Walls and Fences. If you had the wrong number of walls or fences or signposts, or they weren't the right length, then you wouldn't know how many points it was. So the players would pretty much have to buy the GW one. But if there are no points, and you are encouraged to do your own thing, why not use whatever size/shape of walls and fences you want?
I forgot to comment how hilarious it is that the Sigmarine, err, Stormcast Eternal, dice thing is BIGGER!!1!one than the Khorne one. They're truly going all-in trying to make them the Space Marine faction
PS: Favourite AoS model so far*? I have to say I looove the, urgh, "Bloodsecrator". I'm bidding on a second one and bits ordered a third, so I'll have one for fantasy and at least one to make into a Khorne Berserker. Despite the name. And the axe-mace, but that's what OK cleavers, BlOrc two-handers and chainaxes are for. God, I love converting.
It doesn't have to be crap. Get your buddies together and put together some house rules to make it play how you want. In time I'm sure the tourney-loving fellas will work out a nice system for balancing it out for pickup games and stuff. It sucks that we gotta do GW's work for them, but it is what it is I guess.
I personally think it would be cool to have a force organization kinda like 40k, and set a max amt of models for unit scrolls.
Still better quality than most of Mantics product line.
Gosh good thing Mantic encourages you to use whatever miniatures you want when playing their games, even at official events...
of course, it helps their rules are straight up superior
What a great few words about the game. Thanks for sharing!
I particularly like his closing thoughts:
Lastly, I want to say this. If you enjoy the new rules and models, hold your head up high: every gamer has the right to like whatever they damn well please. But respect the old guard, they built the hobby into what it is today.
If you don't like the rules, I absolutely get it. Please don't take it out on the people that do like them. As gamers we've never had as much choice and quality to choose from. when it comes to our gaming. Thoughtful critique and discussion wins over bitterness every time.
Yeah that's pretty much one of the most human responses to AoS I've read so far.
If by human you mean non-committal and scared of rocking the boat, yes. It could just as easily read 'people who like balanced, competitive games should hold their head up high and others shouldn't whinge at them for being waacers'.
One would have thought Mr Pirinen would be dragging this... thing through the dirt seeing as he was responsible for WHFB 6th edition and all of the groundwork it laid for the two future editions, only to be replaced by WHFB Numberwang edition.
Mantic Twitter wrote:Do you like our shiny new statue
I'm liking mantic more and more
That's all they could afford.
HA CHACHA
Given that a healthy 90% of all KoW players in my area have spent the grand total of 0€ in Mantic products, I'd assume Ronnie's masterplan involves releasing free rules for running Stormcast Eternals in KoW.
Mantic Twitter wrote:Do you like our shiny new statue
I'm liking mantic more and more
That's all they could afford.
HA CHACHA
Given that a healthy 90% of all KoW players in my area have spent the grand total of 0€ in Mantic products, I'd assume Ronnie's masterplan involves releasing free rules for running Stormcast Eternals in KoW.
Crimson wrote: Could some kind soul translate the scrolls?
Quick translation:
Lord-Celestant
Stats should be clear.
Abilities:
Sigmarite Warcloak: The cloak can should D6 hammers in the Shooting Phase. For each hammer, choose an enemy unit in 16". Roll a die for each unit, on a 4+ the units gets a deadly wound. You can choose a unit multiple times.
Inevitable Retribution: If you made a charge move this round, each melee weapon gets +1 attack
Enraged Retribution: If this model is your general and activates this ability, you may add +1 to To-Hit rolls for this model and every friendly unit of Stormcast Eternals in 9" in the melee phase.
Liberators
Stats should be clear.
Description: 5+ models. They have either: dual Warblade or Warhammer and Sigmarite-Shield. May have instead a Grandhammer or Grandblae per 5 models.
Liberator-Prime: 3 attacks instead of 2.
Abilities:
Sigmarite-Shield: if at least 1 model in the unit has a Sigmarite-Shield, you may re-roll 1s on save rolls.
Death to the tyrants: if a model of this unit targets an enemy unit with 5+ wounds, add +1 to To-Hit rolls in the melee phase.
Weapon pair: with a dual weapon pair, a Sigmarite can attack or parry. May re-roll To-Hit rolls of 1.
A hammer shooting cloak...that was unexpected. Hopefully Lantern guy and the archers will be on pre-order a week saturday, I like them a lot more and the Liberators from AOS should be all you ever need.
And why all the enmity between fans of GW and Mantic? There is room for both to survive, and ultimately that means more games and more miniatures.
Crimson wrote: Could some kind soul translate the scrolls?
Liberators
Stats should be clear.
Description: 5+ models. They have either: dual Warblade or Warhammer and Sigmarite-Shield. May have instead a Grandhammer or Grandblae per 5 models.
Liberator-Prime: 3 attacks instead of 2.
Abilities:
Sigmarite-Shield: if at least 1 model in the unit has a Sigmarite-Shield, you may re-roll 1s on save rolls.
Death to the tyrants: if a model of this unit targets an enemy unit with 5+ wounds, add +1 to To-Hit rolls in the melee phase.
Weapon pair: with a dual weapon pair, a Sigmarite can attack or parry. May re-roll To-Hit rolls of 1.
Thank you. Does that mean that they cannot have sword and shield or dual hammers? Models were shown with those combinations...
Is anything stopping the champion having the unit's single great weapon?
The models look decent enough (Despite the scale being a big non-starter for 40k conversions.. custodes arent primarch sized). I wish GW could be more subtle in their theme as there is really no need for a cloak that shoots hammers (We get it.. sigmar loves hammers and khorne loves skulls).
Chopxsticks wrote: So is the clam pack guy not the guy with the Lantern and baby griffon? This a different $33 clam pack..
No. Clampack is the sergeant with his special not-even-thor-was-worthy-enough-hammer-cloak. No baby griffon or lantern. Possibly next week (or a bit later even?).
Sigmarite Warcloak: The cloak can should D6 hammers in the Shooting Phase. For each hammer, choose an enemy unit in 16". Roll a die for each unit, on a 4+ the units gets a deadly wound. You can choose a unit multiple times.
Really? Wow. So the hammer cloak has a longer range than most of the Skaven weaponry?
I'm actually surprised at how often GW can surprise me. Next someone will be able to shoot tiny hammers out of their hammers, Whilst riding on some sort of Hammer-Chariot pulled by magic hammers.
Hardcover book of 264 pages in full color where we find the background of everything the happened from the events in "The End of times" to Warhammer : Age of Sigmar. 8 new scenarios , 24 Warscrolls ( thumbnail profiles ) for Stormcast eternals , Khorne Bloodbound and Sylvaneth . In Spanish. This article becomes part of the module.
Chopxsticks wrote: So is the clam pack guy not the guy with the Lantern and baby griffon? This a different $33 clam pack..
No. Clampack is the sergeant with his special not-even-thor-was-worthy-enough-hammer-cloak. No baby griffon or lantern. Possibly next week (or a bit later even?).
The clampack is specifically noted as a Lord Celestant, which is the what the mounted Sigmarite character is.
Crimson wrote: Could some kind soul translate the scrolls?
Liberators
Stats should be clear.
Description: 5+ models. They have either: dual Warblade or Warhammer and Sigmarite-Shield. May have instead a Grandhammer or Grandblae per 5 models.
Liberator-Prime: 3 attacks instead of 2.
Abilities:
Sigmarite-Shield: if at least 1 model in the unit has a Sigmarite-Shield, you may re-roll 1s on save rolls.
Death to the tyrants: if a model of this unit targets an enemy unit with 5+ wounds, add +1 to To-Hit rolls in the melee phase.
Weapon pair: with a dual weapon pair, a Sigmarite can attack or parry. May re-roll To-Hit rolls of 1.
Thank you. Does that mean that they cannot have sword and shield or dual hammers? Models were shown with those combinations...
Is anything stopping the champion having the unit's single great weapon?
They can have Sword/Shield or Dual Hammers. There are pics containing both those setups.
As has been pointed out $50 for 5 40mm sized models is inline with their current pricing for their 40k line for models being sold that were currently released a decade ago. It's also cheaper than equivelant models (5 BA Terminators) that were recently released. It's actually cheaper than some of their end time pricing (i.e. Blightkings & Wrathmongers) for equivelant fantasy offerings.
Not saying $50 isn't expensive but it's not like GW is sneaking in a price increase. The price increase seems to be on the not needed but cool accessories (if that's your thing) or the help eliminate extra steps painting items.
Yeah, I agree with you. But for a new army being launched, presumably as a way to get new players in it's kind of ridiculous.
They're actually 50mm, and they fill out 50mm very nicely.
You know that the 50mm cavalry units for PP come in a pack of 5 and cost $85 - $100 right? Khador Uhlans, Cyngar Storm Lances, etc. If you look at armored knight type figures, the new Anson Durst model for WMH is, I think, $25, too. On 40mm. I think he's laughably ugly as sin, but that's a whole other issue The "premium" 50mm ones from PP, like Elderhorn are $55 and up.
If you look at Dark Sword Miniatures, most of them are $10 minis for infantry sized -- which comes out to $50 for a pack of 5.
I'm not saying that $50 is expensive or cheap -- it's a fair market price for a premium model. If it's not to your liking... there are plenty of cheaper models both from GW and other vendors, but for the people who do like them, that's no more than what anyone else is selling for models like that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
prowla wrote: I give it 2 weeks max. until other companies start coming out with their own "animated warrior statues".
They're are already Greek-themed warrior models that someone posted some pages (probably 150 now...) back that have a very similar look. I mean, the Sigmarite foot soldiers aren't really awesomely original -- they're just superbly sculpted. The premium models are very original though. Giant Cat FTW!
People are making fun of KoW but people that do not want to play Age of SIgmar are running with their fantasy army over to their game.
The appeal of GW games was always " you can walk into any store and find a game" but if a bunch of people switch to KoW. Even if SOME people switch to KoW that might not be the draw of GW anymore when it comes to fantasy.
When a game says it is tournament legal to field ANY miniatures you have as long as they fit the "foot print" of the regiment. IN addition you add in free rules people are willing to try the game out. After awhile some people are tempted to actually buy some of the models. Even if they don't by simply playing the game they are becoming advertising for the game.
Yes there will be people that are more than happy to play Age of Sigmar with their existing armies or start playing fantasy because of Age of SIgmar. But i know speaking for myself that even though I haven't played WHFB for a bit i will definitely not be playing Age of Sigmar but i am more than willing to play KoW.
Crimson wrote: Could some kind soul translate the scrolls?
Liberators
Stats should be clear.
Description: 5+ models. They have either: dual Warblade or Warhammer and Sigmarite-Shield. May have instead a Grandhammer or Grandblae per 5 models.
Liberator-Prime: 3 attacks instead of 2.
Abilities:
Sigmarite-Shield: if at least 1 model in the unit has a Sigmarite-Shield, you may re-roll 1s on save rolls.
Death to the tyrants: if a model of this unit targets an enemy unit with 5+ wounds, add +1 to To-Hit rolls in the melee phase.
Weapon pair: with a dual weapon pair, a Sigmarite can attack or parry. May re-roll To-Hit rolls of 1.
Thank you. Does that mean that they cannot have sword and shield or dual hammers? Models were shown with those combinations...
Is anything stopping the champion having the unit's single great weapon?
They can have Sword/Shield or Dual Hammers. There are pics containing both those setups.
I have to admit, I'm taking note of bloggers and reviewers who actually say they like AoS because obviously their tastes will never be the same as mine and thus I will never be able to take their reviews into account for any future products from anybody.
I also have a major prediction. Slaanesh will be squatted for a more "family friendly" antagonist. Since this game appears to be designed for nine year olds you cannot have a sexual deviant being a major antagonist.
Thank you. Does that mean that they cannot have sword and shield or dual hammers? Models were shown with those combinations...
Is anything stopping the champion having the unit's single great weapon?
Sorry, was in a bit of a hurry. Yes, they can have dual Warhammer, dual Warblade, Warhammer/Shield or Warblade/Shield.
Nothing stopping the prime from taking the Grandhammer/Grandblade. It just says: one model.
Slaanesh is being squatted because he just plain sucks and is unpopular. His models are uninteresting humanoids or animals they shove as many boobs or "totally not phalluses" on with long tongues.
Noise Marines were the only Slaanesh unit that was interesting because they embodied a form of hedonism that wasn't just sex like every other unit was. His daemons and followers have always been super subpar and nothing but the joke end of Chaos. I hope he gets squatted or rebooted into something far more interesting with some actual substance. Screw the "family friendly" vibe, nobody cares about that. His figures were just weird and uninteresting. The only "cool" daemon I ever liked of his was actually the one in Warhammer: Age of Reckoning (the 4 legged dark eldar looking thing.)
But go on, I'd love to hear more from someone who I obviously disagree with one thing about with. Since I can actually take opinions from people after finding they have an opposite opinion on a very niche thing.
Xyxox wrote: I have to admit, I'm taking note of bloggers and reviewers who actually say they like AoS because obviously their tastes will never be the same as mine and thus I will never be able to take their reviews into account for any future products from anybody.
I also have a major prediction. Slaanesh will be squatted for a more "family friendly" antagonist. Since this game appears to be designed for nine year olds you cannot have a sexual deviant being a major antagonist.
Slaanesh is the God/dess of Excess, not just "LOL SEX GOD!".
Xyxox wrote: I have to admit, I'm taking note of bloggers and reviewers who actually say they like AoS because obviously their tastes will never be the same as mine and thus I will never be able to take their reviews into account for any future products from anybody.
I also have a major prediction. Slaanesh will be squatted for a more "family friendly" antagonist. Since this game appears to be designed for nine year olds you cannot have a sexual deviant being a major antagonist.
Slaanesh is the God/dess of Excess, not just "LOL SEX GOD!".
Thank you so much.
This is my biggest issue with all of his models. They just cram it down your throat that he/she is all about sex. In case having 6 boobs and hermaphroditic features weren't enough, they decided to shape everything with phalluses and give them extremely long tongues to drive the point home.
Slaanesh's followers that were vain or indulgent in non-sexual desires were by and far my favorites in the novels and backstory.
I can easily picture Chaos Warriors of Khorne, Tzeentch, or Nurgle in my head in a heartbeat, but I can't for the life of me think of what to do to create Slaanesh warriors. Shiny as hell, over-detailed armor is about the closest thing I can think of (and that describes everything in this universe, including Sigmarines.)
Xyxox wrote: I have to admit, I'm taking note of bloggers and reviewers who actually say they like AoS because obviously their tastes will never be the same as mine and thus I will never be able to take their reviews into account for any future products from anybody.
I also have a major prediction. Slaanesh will be squatted for a more "family friendly" antagonist. Since this game appears to be designed for nine year olds you cannot have a sexual deviant being a major antagonist.
Slaanesh is the God/dess of Excess, not just "LOL SEX GOD!".
Thank you so much.
This is my biggest issue with all of his models. They just cram it down your throat that he/she is all about sex. In case having 6 boobs and hermaphroditic features weren't enough, they decided to shape everything with phalluses and give them extremely long tongues to drive the point home.
Slaanesh's followers that were vain or indulgent in non-sexual desires were by and far my favorites in the novels and backstory.
I can easily picture Chaos Warriors of Khorne, Tzeentch, or Nurgle in my head in a heartbeat, but I can't for the life of me think of what to do to create Slaanesh warriors. Shiny as hell, over-detailed armor is about the closest thing I can think of (and that describes everything in this universe, including Sigmarines.)
Regardless, I don't see them keeping him around conidering the targeted demographic (parents of minors who are being cajoled by said minors to buy this "really cool stuff").
@Shadowclaimer: There are characters in both Warhammer-verses that show you can actually do a Slaaneshi follower without sexing it up. Fabius Bile- not technically Slaaneshi but he does take things to excess.. Lucius the Eternal Doomrider
There's only 1 guy that springs to mind in the fantasy-verse sadly. Sigvald the Magnificent.
All fine examples of non-sexed up Slaanesh guys..GW won't Squat Slaanesh, he's always been a key figure in the Fall of the Eldar.
Xyxox wrote: I also have a major prediction. Slaanesh will be squatted for a more "family friendly" antagonist. Since this game appears to be designed for nine year olds you cannot have a sexual deviant being a major antagonist.
Who was WHFB designed for? Basement-dwelling manchildren who throw fits and insults when other people like what they don't like?
So there is no difference between Hammer and Shield or Sword and Shield? Wierd, but I guess it could help visually identify different units.
Different To-Hit and To-Wound rolls for hammer/sword.
Which of course does not alter the odds of actually delivering the wound...
There is still a difference, though, given the presence of Command Benefits that affect hit/wound rolls specifically. For example, if you have an ability to dole out rerolls to hit, your probably better taking the weapon with a better Wound score.
catharsix wrote: Can we expect to see some Khorne units on the heels of the non-box set Sigmar dudes?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can we expect to see some Khorne units on the heels of the non-box set Sigmar dudes?
-C6
The Bloodhorde or whatever its called is part of the first Scenario book that comes with 24 new warscrolls. I think we're safe in saying they have new models coming too.
I dont think slaanesh will get squatted, but i can see gw retconning alot of the fluff and units and realeasing new models with stronger concepts and deeper personalities than LOLGENITALS. I mean not just for the kids that might get into this game but for strength of concept. Excess has many different faces that could be really cool. Greed, gluttony, hunger for power, torturing beings/causing pain, speed, drugs, any form of addictive behaviour, vanity, jealousy, the act of giving and then taking away, causing/experiencing variant emotions, lying, self pity, protectiveness, proliferation, the list goes on and on. sex should be a small subset of "What is Slaanesh" rather than the defining factor
It really is a strong concept, just quite poorly executed and thought out. Dante Aligieri did better hundreds of years ago. Gw could easily make slaanesh just as interesting and varied if not more so than the other chaos gods.
In a way the rat god idea falls under Slaanesh due to the way skaven are portrayed in Warhammer as being all about base needs and excesses. So maybe it's more that the Horned Rat was an extension of Slaanesh all along.
Most likely Horned Rat since Skaven are now Chaos.
Not unless they decided to change the Horned Rat's sigil.
I wouldn't specifically put it past them but I forgot he already had a specific sigil honestly.
No idea, here's to hoping for Malice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AncientSkarbrand wrote: I dont think slaanesh will get squatted, but i can see gw retconning alot of the fluff and units and realeasing new models with stronger concepts and deeper personalities than LOLGENITALS. I mean not just for the kids that might get into this game but for strength of concept. Excess has many different faces that could be really cool. Greed, gluttony, hunger for power, torturing beings/causing pain, speed, drugs, any form of addictive behaviour, vanity, jealousy, the act of giving and then taking away, causing/experiencing variant emotions, lying, self pity, protectiveness, proliferation, the list goes on and on. sex should be a small subset of "What is Slaanesh" rather than the defining factor
It really is a strong concept, just quite poorly executed and thought out. Dante Aligieri did better hundreds of years ago. Gw could easily make slaanesh just as interesting and varied if not more so than the other chaos gods.
I really like the idea of Slaanesh focusing more on greed/desire, I could easily model an army after that. You'd have pirates, trophy takers, thieves, etc. covering themselves in excess gains and such and focused on the need for more and more until it consumes them (possibly literally.)
Mr Morden wrote: I wonder if there will actually be any new female models
I notice the best heroes of Warhammer in WD had none............
TBH, long time Warhammer Fantasy lore fan here.
Outside of Elves, are there any major female heroes?
Neferata, Khalida, Isabella VC, Fey Enchantress, Valkia, plus as you say the Everqueen/Morathi, Helebrone are pretty important
I guess in my head I was moreso focused on the "good" factions, totally wasn't thinking TK and VC.
Is Valkia actually a major character? Thought she was just kinda referenced. I haven't read a ton of End Times stuff as a note.
Well she is def one of Khorne's favourites and does plenty of killing - her ownnovel is quite a good read too.
Khalida is not really bad - just dead
Neferata often acts in the interests of the living - as long as they serve hers - she is no friend of Chaos (or Nagash - was not totally happy with her part in the ET tbh)
AncientSkarbrand wrote:I dont think slaanesh will get squatted, but i can see gw retconning alot of the fluff and units and realeasing new models with stronger concepts and deeper personalities than LOLGENITALS.
Considering that we still have the Slaanesh keyword for existing units, I don't see Slaanesh going anywhere either. It's possible they slowly phase Slaanesh out, ushering in a new Chaos God.
Hulksmash wrote:In a way the rat god idea falls under Slaanesh due to the way skaven are portrayed in Warhammer as being all about base needs and excesses. So maybe it's more that the Horned Rat was an extension of Slaanesh all along.
Skaven aren't about greed and excess in quite that fashion though. There's no skaven artwork, no concept of beauty or elegance or anything like that. Skaven "greed" is based on stark survival; those with more have a better chance to live. They don't want things just to want them, they want things to survive.
Shadowclaimer wrote:
I wouldn't specifically put it past them but I forgot he already had a specific sigil honestly.
No idea, here's to hoping for Malice.
I wouldn't either, but I suspect it's a simpler answer: they didn't want to continue with the lolpenis sigil they had been using.
Shadowclaimer wrote: Slaanesh is being squatted because he just plain sucks and is unpopular. His models are uninteresting humanoids or animals they shove as many boobs or "totally not phalluses" on with long tongues.
Noise Marines were the only Slaanesh unit that was interesting because they embodied a form of hedonism that wasn't just sex like every other unit was. His daemons and followers have always been super subpar and nothing but the joke end of Chaos. I hope he gets squatted or rebooted into something far more interesting with some actual substance. Screw the "family friendly" vibe, nobody cares about that. His figures were just weird and uninteresting. The only "cool" daemon I ever liked of his was actually the one in Warhammer: Age of Reckoning (the 4 legged dark eldar looking thing.)
But go on, I'd love to hear more from someone who I obviously disagree with one thing about with. Since I can actually take opinions from people after finding they have an opposite opinion on a very niche thing.
You are wrong there. He embodies everything to excess, people who go right to sex and just kids who can't get none. For the rest of us and those who wrote the books always decribed him and being excess and do things that most of us find disgusting. Orgy of flesh for instant where they mention the dark feast. The wealth ect. If anything tzeench should get squatted what your a wizard and like to plan things...interesting.
AncientSkarbrand wrote:I dont think slaanesh will get squatted, but i can see gw retconning alot of the fluff and units and realeasing new models with stronger concepts and deeper personalities than LOLGENITALS.
Considering that we still have the Slaanesh keyword for existing units, I don't see Slaanesh going anywhere either. It's possible they slowly phase Slaanesh out, ushering in a new Chaos God.
Hulksmash wrote:In a way the rat god idea falls under Slaanesh due to the way skaven are portrayed in Warhammer as being all about base needs and excesses. So maybe it's more that the Horned Rat was an extension of Slaanesh all along.
Skaven aren't about greed and excess in quite that fashion though. There's no skaven artwork, no concept of beauty or elegance or anything like that. Skaven "greed" is based on stark survival; those with more have a better chance to live. They don't want things just to want them, they want things to survive.
Shadowclaimer wrote:
I wouldn't specifically put it past them but I forgot he already had a specific sigil honestly.
No idea, here's to hoping for Malice.
I wouldn't either, but I suspect it's a simpler answer: they didn't want to continue with the lolpenis sigil they had been using.
That's a good point I hadn't considered, if we still have the Slaanesh keyword he probably isn't going anywhere.
AncientSkarbrand wrote:I dont think slaanesh will get squatted, but i can see gw retconning alot of the fluff and units and realeasing new models with stronger concepts and deeper personalities than LOLGENITALS.
Considering that we still have the Slaanesh keyword for existing units, I don't see Slaanesh going anywhere either. It's possible they slowly phase Slaanesh out, ushering in a new Chaos God.
That doesn't really mean anything. They made rules for everything, even Brettonian stuff, just so people can keep using old models but they'll clearly be phasing stuff out over time.
So yeah, Slaanesh could definitely be out. And I mean why wouldn't he/she be, it's pretty obvious who GW is targeting with Age of Sigmar and you can't really sell that to kids, can you? Literally nothing is sacred with AoS.
Oh, and apparently it's all our fault because we didn't buy new 3,000+ point WHF armies every three months after 8th edition dropped. GWhad to do this because WHF was a failure.
Shadowclaimer wrote: Slaanesh is being squatted because he just plain sucks and is unpopular. His models are uninteresting humanoids or animals they shove as many boobs or "totally not phalluses" on with long tongues.
Noise Marines were the only Slaanesh unit that was interesting because they embodied a form of hedonism that wasn't just sex like every other unit was. His daemons and followers have always been super subpar and nothing but the joke end of Chaos. I hope he gets squatted or rebooted into something far more interesting with some actual substance. Screw the "family friendly" vibe, nobody cares about that. His figures were just weird and uninteresting. The only "cool" daemon I ever liked of his was actually the one in Warhammer: Age of Reckoning (the 4 legged dark eldar looking thing.)
But go on, I'd love to hear more from someone who I obviously disagree with one thing about with. Since I can actually take opinions from people after finding they have an opposite opinion on a very niche thing.
Now, see, I happen to prefer Slaanesh. He's more than just "bewbs!!". He's also the god of perfection and skill, slightly different from Khorne's martial prowess. Notice that Sigvald is an expert swordsman and the most narcisstic character in the game. Neither are actually addressing Slaanesh's sexual portion.
In 6th WHFB, I ran a model I called the Incredible Hulk; he takes wounds, he gains attacks. He deals wounds, he can gain health up to double his starting wounds. High ward save, 1+ armor save, stubborn, he was an absolute beat stick. Required to be Slaanesh due to the Pendant of Slaanesh. I will be very disappointed if they remove Slaanesh. I'd rather see Tzeentch disappear.
Shadowclaimer wrote: Slaanesh is being squatted because he just plain sucks and is unpopular. His models are uninteresting humanoids or animals they shove as many boobs or "totally not phalluses" on with long tongues.
Noise Marines were the only Slaanesh unit that was interesting because they embodied a form of hedonism that wasn't just sex like every other unit was. His daemons and followers have always been super subpar and nothing but the joke end of Chaos. I hope he gets squatted or rebooted into something far more interesting with some actual substance. Screw the "family friendly" vibe, nobody cares about that. His figures were just weird and uninteresting. The only "cool" daemon I ever liked of his was actually the one in Warhammer: Age of Reckoning (the 4 legged dark eldar looking thing.)
But go on, I'd love to hear more from someone who I obviously disagree with one thing about with. Since I can actually take opinions from people after finding they have an opposite opinion on a very niche thing.
Now, see, I happen to prefer Slaanesh. He's more than just "bewbs!!". He's also the god of perfection and skill, slightly different from Khorne's martial prowess. Notice that Sigvald is an expert swordsman and the most narcisstic character in the game. Neither are actually addressing Slaanesh's sexual portion.
In 6th WHFB, I ran a model I called the Incredible Hulk; he takes wounds, he gains attacks. He deals wounds, he can gain health up to double his starting wounds. High ward save, 1+ armor save, stubborn, he was an absolute beat stick. Required to be Slaanesh due to the Pendant of Slaanesh. I will be very disappointed if they remove Slaanesh. I'd rather see Tzeentch disappear.
I like Sigvald, I really do, if more of the Slaanesh-specific stuff was like Sigvald I'd be on board.
But anytime we experience Slaanesh-based units they're usually more in the vein of his Daemonettes or all rapey than like Sigvald. I'd like to see Slaanesh-specific golden radiant self-indulgent donkey-cave Warriors actually. That'd be awesome.
AncientSkarbrand wrote:I dont think slaanesh will get squatted, but i can see gw retconning alot of the fluff and units and realeasing new models with stronger concepts and deeper personalities than LOLGENITALS.
Considering that we still have the Slaanesh keyword for existing units, I don't see Slaanesh going anywhere either. It's possible they slowly phase Slaanesh out, ushering in a new Chaos God.
That doesn't really mean anything. They made rules for everything, even Brettonian stuff, just so people can keep using old models but they'll clearly be phasing stuff out over time.
So yeah, Slaanesh could definitely be out. And I mean why wouldn't he/she be, it's pretty obvious who GW is targeting with Age of Sigmar and you can't really sell that to kids, can you? Literally nothing is sacred with AoS.
Oh, and apparently it's all our fault because we didn't buy new 3,000+ point WHF armies every three months after 8th edition dropped. GWhad to do this because WHF was a failure.
Well, they didn't make rules for any unit that didn't have an existing model, regardless of that unit being in previous books. See: Skaven Warlord on a Bonebreaker. They do still make Slaaneshi daemon models, so unless they're planning on dropping the entire line, I don't imagine Slaanesh going anywhere any time soon. Like I said, it's possible they'll do a slow phase out and usher in a new Chaos God. Like you said, with AoS pretty much nothing is untouchable or sacred.
I'm just going with Occam's Razor here. A sigil shaped somewhere between a boner and a boob (depending on how you look at it) is probably not part of the plan going forward though.
Manchu wrote: Retconning away a Ruinous Power is just way, way too far. Those roots go too deep into both Fantasy and 40k.
Like blowing up the whole world
I did hear that was some major stuff about Slaanesh runnign away in recent Eldar novel which sounded wierd. something about new Eldar god and Harlequins?
I've just had my copy of Gates of Azyr delivered to work this morning, I've only had time to read chapter one and 2, but it's not exactly a child's novel so far. Seems to be adult friendly, but not necessarily one you need to hide from the kids. Cannibalism and detailed description of how eating humans feels, but with a very heroic hero looking heroic as he speaks heroically.
Manchu wrote: Retconning away a Ruinous Power is just way, way too far. Those roots go too deep into both Fantasy and 40k.
Like blowing up the whole world
I did hear that was some major stuff about Slaanesh runnign away in recent Eldar novel which sounded wierd. something about new Eldar god and Harlequins?
Eldar Death God is stealing souls from Slaanesh and slowly building power to destroy Slaanesh or something.
The rumormill has had stuff about Slaanesh going away for awhile in 40k, last we heard was around Khorne Daemonkin, it could just be our rumormongers were getting info from AOS and thought it was 40k.
Shadowclaimer wrote: Slaanesh is being squatted because he just plain sucks and is unpopular. His models are uninteresting humanoids or animals they shove as many boobs or "totally not phalluses" on with long tongues.
Noise Marines were the only Slaanesh unit that was interesting because they embodied a form of hedonism that wasn't just sex like every other unit was. His daemons and followers have always been super subpar and nothing but the joke end of Chaos. I hope he gets squatted or rebooted into something far more interesting with some actual substance. Screw the "family friendly" vibe, nobody cares about that. His figures were just weird and uninteresting. The only "cool" daemon I ever liked of his was actually the one in Warhammer: Age of Reckoning (the 4 legged dark eldar looking thing.)
But go on, I'd love to hear more from someone who I obviously disagree with one thing about with. Since I can actually take opinions from people after finding they have an opposite opinion on a very niche thing.
Now, see, I happen to prefer Slaanesh. He's more than just "bewbs!!". He's also the god of perfection and skill, slightly different from Khorne's martial prowess. Notice that Sigvald is an expert swordsman and the most narcisstic character in the game. Neither are actually addressing Slaanesh's sexual portion.
In 6th WHFB, I ran a model I called the Incredible Hulk; he takes wounds, he gains attacks. He deals wounds, he can gain health up to double his starting wounds. High ward save, 1+ armor save, stubborn, he was an absolute beat stick. Required to be Slaanesh due to the Pendant of Slaanesh. I will be very disappointed if they remove Slaanesh. I'd rather see Tzeentch disappear.
I like Sigvald, I really do, if more of the Slaanesh-specific stuff was like Sigvald I'd be on board.
But anytime we experience Slaanesh-based units they're usually more in the vein of his Daemonettes or all rapey than like Sigvald. I'd like to see Slaanesh-specific golden radiant self-indulgent donkey-cave Warriors actually. That'd be awesome.
Can't take away my deamonettes :( I even like the current models, but GW hasn't done much interesting with any of there daemons. Outside the nostalgia I have for the lore GW, they haven't really done much with any off them.
There is plenty new stuff they could do with them all, but they choose the most basic and easy to sell.
These are the things GW should be talking about, trying to understand what they can do with the great things they have.
I despise AoS but prices seem to be standard GW except shakers and crap like that. I also despise sigmarine models but they are still 10 times better than Warmachine stuff and if the latter is indeed more expensive (didnt know that) then lololol.
Shadowclaimer wrote: Slaanesh is being squatted because he just plain sucks and is unpopular. His models are uninteresting humanoids or animals they shove as many boobs or "totally not phalluses" on with long tongues.
Noise Marines were the only Slaanesh unit that was interesting because they embodied a form of hedonism that wasn't just sex like every other unit was. His daemons and followers have always been super subpar and nothing but the joke end of Chaos. I hope he gets squatted or rebooted into something far more interesting with some actual substance. Screw the "family friendly" vibe, nobody cares about that. His figures were just weird and uninteresting. The only "cool" daemon I ever liked of his was actually the one in Warhammer: Age of Reckoning (the 4 legged dark eldar looking thing.)
But go on, I'd love to hear more from someone who I obviously disagree with one thing about with. Since I can actually take opinions from people after finding they have an opposite opinion on a very niche thing.
Forge World Keeper of Secrets is an incredible model imo. Also no chaos god has any depth, Khorne is blood blood blood, Nurgle is rot rot rot and Tzeentch is plan plan plan. I love them all but can write a rant like yours about every one of them too.
Perhaps after all those delicious elven souls, Slaanesh has either evolved 'not even my final form' into something new or is slowly decaying away since elf souls are not in big supply anymore? I dunno, please dont take the god of excess away, BDSM gods have rights too.
Edit: Slaanesh has loads of cool tributes besides excess in sex:
Pain
Sound
Pride
Attention to detail
Royalty
filbert wrote: Damning with faint praise from Tuomas Pirinen IMO
I don't think he was praising it. He see,s to be mostly on the fence. Likes some stuff, others not so much. I think he was stepping carefully. I am sure he still has friends that work in the design studio and really, it's pretty unprofessional to bad mouth a former employer.
unmercifulconker wrote: Perhaps after all those delicious elven souls, Slaanesh has either evolved 'not even my final form' into something new or is slowly decaying away since elf souls are not in big supply anymore? I dunno, please dont take the god of excess away, BDSM gods have rights too.
Edit: Slaanesh has loads of cool tributes besides excess in sex:
Pain
Sound
Pride
Attention to detail
Royalty
But do they ever show that in the models?
Sigvald is the only fantasy model that shows anything but that. I'd love to see like.. an army of pirate-esque fabio-like Slaanesh warriors that are wearing gleaming armor and covered in tons of gold chains and gak that look like they've been raiding every manse they can find for their own good.
filbert wrote: Damning with faint praise from Tuomas Pirinen IMO
I don't think he was praising it. He see,s to be mostly on the fence. Likes some stuff, others not so much. I think he was stepping carefully. I am sure he still has friends that work in the design studio and really, it's pretty unprofessional to bad mouth a former employer.
Yes, that's what the phrase 'damning with faint praise' means.
In reality, the miniature wargaming business in Nottingham is very incestuous. Even those who no longer work for GW have links back to the 'Fatherland', as it were, and no-one really wants to burn bridges by publicly slagging off a former employer. Even Mantic's jibes are good natured in their humour rather than out and out antagonistic as you sometimes see between rival companies in other markets. Tuomas Pirinen, whilst I believe is no longer involved in miniature wargames any more (I think he works in software or something now) is more than likely no wishing to publicly tread on toes I think.
To be fair, I have been building up my WoC warriors of Slaanesh with a rapier held by the leader; a noble and extravagant weapon if there ever was one. I also modded the shield to be on the right arm while making a left handed swordsman, to show somebody who stood out from everyone else based on their weapon skill. Both of those are small mods, but symbolize Slaanesh's other traits.
unmercifulconker wrote: Perhaps after all those delicious elven souls, Slaanesh has either evolved 'not even my final form' into something new or is slowly decaying away since elf souls are not in big supply anymore? I dunno, please dont take the god of excess away, BDSM gods have rights too.
Edit: Slaanesh has loads of cool tributes besides excess in sex:
Pain
Sound
Pride
Attention to detail
Royalty
But do they ever show that in the models?
Sigvald is the only fantasy model that shows anything but that. I'd love to see like.. an army of pirate-esque fabio-like Slaanesh warriors that are wearing gleaming armor and covered in tons of gold chains and gak that look like they've been raiding every manse they can find for their own good.
Yeah Sigvald is the aspect I like the most, would love to see an army based around him too.
I see the argument for khorne having no depth, but nurgle and tzeentch? Their concepts are deep on their own... You can only imagine so far about martial prowess and cutting skulls off, but diseases? Universal biology is an extremely interesting concept and disease itself is a very interesting way to fight also. Artistically, the concept they created of heavily diseased beings having immense resilience because of it is awesome, like a typhoid mary that becomes superhuman from a disease that renders other organisms extinct. Despair and hopelessness are also pretty large and prominent emotional concepts to latch onto, and can be deepened and injected into the fluff in myriad interesting and original ways.
Likewise, the concept of tzeentch controlling all events and changes in the universe is incredibly deep. The intelligence of a mind that could predict all events and twist fate to steer events is incredible... He has a part in everything. Its similar actually to the concept of a god used in traditional mythology (all knowing, all seeing, controlling all events) and leads to endless amounts of things he could be doing, could be interested in, or could have something to do with him. The amvitions of so many warlords and politicians, what they think is free will is a plan too twisted for a mortal mind to comprehend. The magic is a logical connection due to his vast intelligence and magic coming from the psyche. Literally almost any story could be written with tzeentch at the wheel in the background.. Even if none of the characters have even heard of him.
Khorne is so one dimensional he hardly has a personality. I cant even properly relate to anything he is involved with. There is only one way to put him in any sort of story and only one way to depict his apparent "theme". Angry dudes that like to chop. Really bland concept if you ask me.
timetowaste85 wrote: To be fair, I have been building up my WoC warriors of Slaanesh with a rapier held by the leader; a noble and extravagant weapon if there ever was one. I also modded the shield to be on the right arm while making a left handed swordsman, to show somebody who stood out from everyone else based on their weapon skill. Both of those are small mods, but symbolize Slaanesh's other traits.
See I love the idea of that.
To me, Slaanesh warriors should be kinda two-faced, at a glance they should be these kinds of guys you look at and you're like "He looks like someone who's got life figured out" and they promise you absolutely everything you could ever want.
Then you figure out they're depraved as gak and their greed and need has consumed them rotting them at the core until they're monsters.
I've always seen it as:
Khorne is power at the cost of control.
Tzeentch is knowledge at the cost of sanity.
Nurgle is immortality at the cost of health.
Slaanesh is desires at the cost of unsatiable want.
Slaanesh is actually the most in-depth of the Chaos gods, IMHO. S/he has its own backstory with the Eldar, his/her own connection with the elves in fantasy (what other chaos god can lay claim to a non-chaos faction? Or.... three factions, even!), and embodies being the best in EVERYTHING, including things that don't have to do with war like arts, music, dancing, and cooking! Khorne is all war war war and Nurgle is all plague plague plague (though it's at least possible to picture functioning nurgle societies) and Tzeentch is... basically all random (though he can have depth too), but Slaanesh goes and delves into EVERYTHING, be it fighting, dancing, crafting, torture, and of course, sex.
If you look at that last Daemon codex with the story of that Astartes that infiltrated Slaanesh's palace, you'll see he goes through 6 different trials, NO TWO OF WHICH ARE ALIKE. if he were in Khorne's citadel, it'd instead all be just "kill kill fight kill get-killed-by-khorne".
And that's probably why GW never makes any new Slaanesh things and probably why I wouldn't be too surprised if Slaanesh got squatted (though I still really doubt they'll do that)
AncientSkarbrand wrote: I see the argument for khorne having no depth, but nurgle and tzeentch? Their concepts are deep on their own... You can only imagine so far about martial prowess and cutting skulls off, but diseases? Universal biology is an extremely interesting concept and disease itself is a very interesting way to fight also. Artistically, the concept they created of heavily diseased beings having immense resilience because of it is awesome, like a typhoid mary that becomes superhuman from a disease that renders other organisms extinct. Despair and hopelessness are also pretty large and prominent emotional concepts to latch onto, and can be deepened and injected into the fluff in myriad interesting and original ways.
In theory yes. In practice, every Nurgle model seems to be a fat blob with some sores and wounds on it.
streamdragon wrote: I'm just going with Occam's Razor here. A sigil shaped somewhere between a boner and a boob (depending on how you look at it) is probably not part of the plan going forward though.
Are you talking about the old Slaanesh sigil? Because I didn't see that at all, it was basically just the traditional Greek (I think they're Greek, hell I don't know) symbols for "male" and "female" combined.
Which makes sense now that I think about it, kinda like trying to trademark chevrons or the Omega symbol.
Manchu wrote: Retconning away a Ruinous Power is just way, way too far. Those roots go too deep into both Fantasy and 40k.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My guess is, GW had trouble copyrighting the traditional Slaaneshi sigil.
Maybe their lawyer finally got through their skulls that you can't copyright boobs.
But you can copyright (trademark?) a skull, apparently, which is all the Khorne symbol is. Go figure.
Shadowclaimer wrote: Sigvald is the only fantasy model that shows anything but that. I'd love to see like.. an army of pirate-esque fabio-like Slaanesh warriors that are wearing gleaming armor and covered in tons of gold chains and gak that look like they've been raiding every manse they can find for their own good.
It would have been oddly appropriate in my mind if the Stormcast Eternals were actually followers of Slaanesh.
I see the argument for khorne having no depth, but nurgle and tzeentch? Their concepts are deep on their own... You can only imagine so far about martial prowess and cutting skulls off, but diseases? Universal biology is an extremely interesting concept and disease itself is a very interesting way to fight also. Artistically, the concept they created of heavily diseased beings having immense resilience because of it is awesome, like a typhoid mary that becomes superhuman from a disease that renders other organisms extinct. Despair and hopelessness are also pretty large and prominent emotional concepts to latch onto, and can be deepened and injected into the fluff in myriad interesting and original ways.
Likewise, the concept of tzeentch controlling all events and changes in the universe is incredibly deep. The intelligence of a mind that could predict all events and twist fate to steer events is incredible... He has a part in everything. Its similar actually to the concept of a god used in traditional mythology (all knowing, all seeing, controlling all events) and leads to endless amounts of things he could be doing, could be interested in, or could have something to do with him. The amvitions of so many warlords and politicians, what they think is free will is a plan too twisted for a mortal mind to comprehend. The magic is a logical connection due to his vast intelligence and magic coming from the psyche. Literally almost any story could be written with tzeentch at the wheel in the background.. Even if none of the characters have even heard of him.
Khorne is so one dimensional he hardly has a personality. I cant even properly relate to anything he is involved with. There is only one way to put him in any sort of story and only one way to depict his apparent "theme". Angry dudes that like to chop. Really bland concept if you ask me.
I agree, I think there's a lot more depth to all the Chaos gods than most people are willing to look for. I think what it mainly comes down to is everyone picks their favorite and then does everything they can to justify their choice while making the others sound stupid. Which is why you have Slaanesh fans dumbing the others down to "plague, plague, plague" or "plan, plan, plan", or Khorne fans trying to make them all sound equally simplified, etc.
The biggest issue is that GW themselves dumb down the Chaos gods. Hell, IIRC, there's even a description in one of the latest new Khorne units about them not caring about honor and only caring about killing. The latest Nurgle units don't go into much of Nurgle's compassionate side, either (although the Glottkin novel does, at least). It's been a long time since we've had a Nurgle unit like the Beast of Nurgle where Nurgle's compassion was actually incorporated into its rules.
And Tzeentch and Slaanesh are almost completely ignored by GW, really.
unmercifulconker wrote: Perhaps after all those delicious elven souls, Slaanesh has either evolved 'not even my final form' into something new or is slowly decaying away since elf souls are not in big supply anymore? I dunno, please dont take the god of excess away, BDSM gods have rights too.
Edit: Slaanesh has loads of cool tributes besides excess in sex:
Pain
Sound
Pride
Attention to detail
Royalty
But do they ever show that in the models?
Sigvald is the only fantasy model that shows anything but that. I'd love to see like.. an army of pirate-esque fabio-like Slaanesh warriors that are wearing gleaming armor and covered in tons of gold chains and gak that look like they've been raiding every manse they can find for their own good.
I don't think they show much of there greater concepts in a lot of the demons, where are the demon Valkyries of slaanesh that come to the dead for slaanesh. Pushing mortals to greater deeds and perfection before taking all those who now belong to there God, and tempting there enemy to turn in there dying moments.
There is a lot that can be done with demons of the other gods also that GW mostly just stick with what they have come up with years before. If anything the lack of slaanesh within age of sigmar is a true won't be buying into the game.
filbert wrote: Damning with faint praise from Tuomas Pirinen IMO
I don't think he was praising it. He see,s to be mostly on the fence. Likes some stuff, others not so much. I think he was stepping carefully. I am sure he still has friends that work in the design studio and really, it's pretty unprofessional to bad mouth a former employer.
Yes, that's what the phrase 'damning with faint praise' means.
In reality, the miniature wargaming business in Nottingham is very incestuous. Even those who no longer work for GW have links back to the 'Fatherland', as it were, and no-one really wants to burn bridges by publicly slagging off a former employer. Even Mantic's jibes are good natured in their humour rather than out and out antagonistic as you sometimes see between rival companies in other markets. Tuomas Pirinen, whilst I believe is no longer involved in miniature wargames any more (I think he works in software or something now) is more than likely no wishing to publicly tread on toes I think.
He's a video games designer who's had had some very high positions at various studios and is now at his own studio I believe... he has completely switched careers and I couldn't see him going back, so he probably doesn't care about burning bridges. But yeah he surely has friends still there. Mostly I think he's just not a hyperbolic rageaholic.
It seems strange, the chaos gods are a well of potential IP capitalization that never gets the attention they deserve. They could do alot more really. I imagine chaos armies are fairly popular, and their owners probably mostly feel like the concepts go beyond the sculpts and gw-fluff.
I imagine thats a healthy wad of cash to just ignore and lazy-away.
If Slaanesh does get captured, and the WD hint seems to suggest that (someone was saying the WD contains info about Sigmar being the one who captured the Prince.) I'd easily say its more of the narrative setup kinda thing, where they'll have him captured then get free and corrupt some Sigmarines or something.
I see the argument for khorne having no depth, but nurgle and tzeentch? Their concepts are deep on their own... You can only imagine so far about martial prowess and cutting skulls off, but diseases? Universal biology is an extremely interesting concept and disease itself is a very interesting way to fight also. Artistically, the concept they created of heavily diseased beings having immense resilience because of it is awesome, like a typhoid mary that becomes superhuman from a disease that renders other organisms extinct. Despair and hopelessness are also pretty large and prominent emotional concepts to latch onto, and can be deepened and injected into the fluff in myriad interesting and original ways.
Likewise, the concept of tzeentch controlling all events and changes in the universe is incredibly deep. The intelligence of a mind that could predict all events and twist fate to steer events is incredible... He has a part in everything. Its similar actually to the concept of a god used in traditional mythology (all knowing, all seeing, controlling all events) and leads to endless amounts of things he could be doing, could be interested in, or could have something to do with him. The amvitions of so many warlords and politicians, what they think is free will is a plan too twisted for a mortal mind to comprehend. The magic is a logical connection due to his vast intelligence and magic coming from the psyche. Literally almost any story could be written with tzeentch at the wheel in the background.. Even if none of the characters have even heard of him.
Khorne is so one dimensional he hardly has a personality. I cant even properly relate to anything he is involved with. There is only one way to put him in any sort of story and only one way to depict his apparent "theme". Angry dudes that like to chop. Really bland concept if you ask me.
I agree, I think there's a lot more depth to all the Chaos gods than most people are willing to look for. I think what it mainly comes down to is everyone picks their favorite and then does everything they can to justify their choice while making the others sound stupid. Which is why you have Slaanesh fans dumbing the others down to "plague, plague, plague" or "plan, plan, plan", or Khorne fans trying to make them all sound equally simplified, etc.
Well my point for example was that Tzeenth is plan plan plan as much as Slaneesh is sex sex sex. And I love all chaos gods, I can never finish a csm army because I change my mind in the middle of the project about who the main god is.
Khorne actualy is a simpleton but I want that bloodthirster with chainsaws anyway and fw one just like it is.
AncientSkarbrand wrote: It seems strange, the chaos gods are a well of potential IP capitalization that never gets the attention they deserve. They could do alot more really. I imagine chaos armies are fairly popular, and their owners probably mostly feel like the concepts go beyond the sculpts and gw-fluff.
I imagine thats a healthy wad of cash to just ignore and lazy-away.
Honestly ever chaos player I know feels they got the short stick, I don't think any chaos army I have seen in years hasn't had something added in from other places.
My chaos army's all incorporate models from PP now, and other places.
Maybe I'm overanalyzing things, but given the change of public opinion considering sexuallity, geneder and transgender I can see GW steering way from attributing it to a demonic (ie. evil) entity. I can imagine them redefining Slaanesh in some form, probably not writing it out completely.
It's a drop in the ocean though, given all the others facist undertones of the Imperium.
Darkseid wrote: Maybe I'm overanalyzing things, but given the change of public opinion considering sexuallity, geneder and transgender I can see GW steering way from attributing it to a demonic (ie. evil) entity. I can imagine them redefining Slaanesh in some form, probably not writing it out completely.
It's a drop in the ocean though, given all the others facist undertones of the Imperium.
It could be, but simply dropping slaanesh is probably not the best way to handle it.
Darkseid wrote: Maybe I'm overanalyzing things, but given the change of public opinion considering sexuallity, geneder and transgender I can see GW steering way from attributing it to a demonic (ie. evil) entity. I can imagine them redefining Slaanesh in some form, probably not writing it out completely.
It's a drop in the ocean though, given all the others facist undertones of the Imperium.
Not to mention fat people being demonic and disgustingly sick.
Though since the whole affair was never about equality anyway and always extremly selective, noone really cares about fat guys and therefore Slanesh could be first to censor when it comes to that.
To be fair, they don't even represent other races well across all their universes. If they don't care about that, I doubt they'd cave to any other group.
Sidstyler wrote: But you can copyright (trademark?) a skull, apparently, which is all the Khorne symbol is.
Sure and the Nike Swoosh is just a check mark.
You mean it's not?
Plumbumbarum wrote: Well my point for example was that Tzeenth is plan plan plan as much as Slaneesh is sex sex sex. And I love all chaos gods, I can never finish a csm army because I change my mind in the middle of the project about who the main god is.
Fair enough.
Plumbumbarum wrote: Khorne actualy is a simpleton but I want that bloodthirster with chainsaws anyway and fw one just like it is.
I don't even think Khorne is that bad, honestly. He's a simpleton now because that's where GW went with the fluff, where it's literally all "rage, rage, rage" but that doesn't mean it's impossible to do something interesting with it. GW just didn't know or care.
Like it's so bad that I remember people saying at one point that Khorne worshippers wouldn't use guns, or that they were so utterly mad that they couldn't drive tanks, either, so the only "fluffy" way to run a Khorne army would be fielding nothing but berserkers and daemons. Even GW isn't that one-dimensional.
Darkseid wrote: Maybe I'm overanalyzing things, but given the change of public opinion considering sexuallity, geneder and transgender I can see GW steering way from attributing it to a demonic (ie. evil) entity. I can imagine them redefining Slaanesh in some form, probably not writing it out completely.
I personally don't really see it that way, but I guess others might. If that's the case then you could argue Tzeentch's lore is basically attributing intelligence to a demonic entity, couldn't you?
Excess is definitely something that makes sense as an "evil" attribute, I'd think.
Can a moderator change the title of OP? Its not a retcon if Slaanesh was captured. A retcon is an attempt to remove them from ever existing from any of the backstory or lore, a simple killing off or such isn't a retcon.
It makes it sound so much worse than it actually is, especially considering we have a leak now of the mythology showing him/her being captured by Sigmarites.
Even if they have imprisoned slaanesh, im sure his influence will leak out of his confinement, corrupting his captors, which could lead to some interesting fluff. Kinds of like how a daemon host can slowly corrupt an inquistor who uses his power and knowledge. Slaanesh would be great as a seemly powerless force corrupting and 'guiding' another faction.
Also im sure that as in nature where theres a vacuum something will rush in to fill it. This could be the horned rat or even belakor, the logo does look like it could fit either of them.
If they really are ditching Slaanesh it will be a real shame because she's not all about sex sex sex. Back when GW had their own forums I wrote a mini-series about each of the chaos gods detailing what made each of them interesting above their stereotypical representation. It was in response to somebody complaining that Nurgle was boring as he was only about plague and it was about a year before GW published their official chaos books (I wonder if the special edition ones are worth anything now?).
Slaanesh only became all about the bewbies as the old timers at GW started leaving. It's sad, I miss the old Ignorant Armies and Laughter of Dark Gods days - that was when chaos was cool.
edlowe wrote: Even if they have imprisoned slaanesh, im sure his influence will leak out of his confinement, corrupting his captors, which could lead to some interesting fluff. Kinds of like how a daemon host can slowly corrupt an inquistor who uses his power and knowledge. Slaanesh would be great as a seemly powerless force corrupting and 'guiding' another faction.
Also im sure that as in nature where theres a vacuum something will rush in to fill it. This could be the horned rat or even belakor, the logo does look like it could fit either of them.
Exactly, this sounds more like part of the new "narrative" system they're wanting to do where every few months they release a series of scenarios to follow a major event and advance the storyline.
Slaanesh gets captured, Slaanesh corrupts some Sigmarines and gets free and takes over prat of Azyr, bam, series of scenarios happens.
Yeah, Tzeentch and Slaanesh can be the most subtile, when it comes to corruption. Heck, one might not even know that Tzeentch has his eye on him, until time comes.
Same goes for Slaanesh. You rich? You like to party? Ja ja?
Greed, gluttony, hunger for power, torturing beings/causing pain, speed, drugs, any form of addictive behaviour, vanity, jealousy, the act of giving and then taking away, causing/experiencing variant emotions, lying, self pity, protectiveness, proliferation
Sigvald alone was 99,99% of this
It would be shame if thy dropped Slaanesh. Though he could be shocking from time to time, especially for younger audience. Cough, using excrements and blood instead of paints, to paint a portrait, cough.
Also, Noise Marines were born in a violent orgy of sex, extasy and various other profanities.
I personally don't really see it that way, but I guess others might. If that's the case then you could argue Tzeentch's lore is basically attributing intelligence to a demonic entity, couldn't you?
No, because the main theme for Tzeentch as I see it is deception and deceit. Intelligence just helps with that.
Sidstyler wrote: Yeah, and the main theme for Slaanesh is excess and addiction. Drugs and sex just help convey that.
I dunno, I just don't see it being that different.
And yet Slaangors were never described with those terms.
They were described as albinos with "luxurious fur capes and looted jewellery which contrasts strangely with their bestial natures".
It's not like similar could not be done for the other Mortal followers of Chaos; Sigvald is a perfect example of such.
Shadowclaimer wrote: If Slaanesh does get captured, and the WD hint seems to suggest that (someone was saying the WD contains info about Sigmar being the one who captured the Prince.) I'd easily say its more of the narrative setup kinda thing, where they'll have him captured then get free and corrupt some Sigmarines or something.
Seems like cool story potential to me.
I feel as though that they may get rid of Slaanesh in AoS and give that place to some kind of "skaven" god... or mix the two up, was there not some thing about slaanesh staying in the old world feasting on the souls of the left behind elves?
I think that in the long run "slaanesh" is not dead, he is a well established god but that he may take a back seat in AoS, maybe he was the least popular of the gods and I am sure the "sexual" aspect of him (like it or not, sex was his thing, obviously excess but people focused on sex, remember the penis army ) had something to play with it.
either way, I would like skaven to get a stronger "god" aspect in chaos, would make sense... plus Slaanesh being excess was a bit.. hard to pull off, would not excess of violence be slaanesh which would feed khorne, what about excess of lying (change) or what about excess of corruption (pus boy)... slaanesh in the long run had a hard time fitting in if you ask me..
or it could be Malal he is back and kicking arse now that more people hate chaos than ever before.... and what if MALAL is the HORNED GOD (malal, spikey bits, horns, anyone?)
Grimtuff wrote:
One would have thought Mr Pirinen would be dragging this... thing through the dirt seeing as he was responsible for WHFB 6th edition and all of the groundwork it laid for the two future editions, only to be replaced by WHFB Numberwang edition.
Too far removed from it, I think. Also, as I said, didn't want to ruffle too many feathers. (Though is there anyone still at GW that he would've worked with? Jervis?)
Shadowclaimer wrote:
Slaanesh's followers that were vain or indulgent in non-sexual desires were by and far my favorites in the novels and backstory.
I get what you mean. Though as Tiamat and others said, they were all made one-note to some degree. Forget Sigvald, Khorne used to be the one about martial skill, not just skullzskullzskullz. Nurgle used to be Grandfather Nurgle, utterly besotted with Isha. Tzeentch... well TBH I'm not entirely sure what Tzeentch's other facets were, beyond being constantly described as having like a zillion facets you guys.
I've had thoughts of getting the plastic nurgle champion, covering over his sores, and sculpting a cherubic, golden-ringleted, but big fat face on it. Best get to it while there's some left? Also, I vaguely remember something in Liber Chaotica: Nurgle about a norse tribe worshipping Nurgle in the form of a(n emaciated?) crow. I thought that would've been an interesting angle to explore, model wise. Steal a bit of birdy theme off Tzeentch.
Shadowclaimer wrote:I'd like to see Slaanesh-specific golden radiant self-indulgent donkey-cave Warriors actually. That'd be awesome.
Tzeentch represents the desire to change one's future. This is done through planning, secret knowledge, employing magic to force the change on the universe. Tzeentch provides the means to this, and tricks you to his own end.
Nurgle represents the lethargy and apathetic acceptance of one's fate. You do not fight the disease, or the knowledge of your death, and Nurgle allows you to grow stronger in your decay.
Khorne, though not being shown this way enough by GW, is straight forward, standing up and fighting your foes in person, fighting those who are worth the fight over pathetic cowards and weaklings. No lies, no bullcrap, just look you in the face violence.
Slaanesh is about seducing your enemy, turning them to your side, lying, using peoples thoughts and emotions against them, attacking the weak because it is easy and fun, stabbing someone in the back. This use of people's emotions means many champions can be icons of perfection in one arena, as it was their love for this that turned them.
I've only glanced back at this thread, but if they seriously are getting rid of Slaanesh, I will not be spending money at GW any more.
Slaanesh-Devotee wrote: Tzeentch represents the desire to change one's future. This is done through planning, secret knowledge, employing magic to force the change on the universe. Tzeentch provides the means to this, and tricks you to his own end.
Nurgle represents the lethargy and apathetic acceptance of one's fate. You do not fight the disease, or the knowledge of your death, and Nurgle allows you to grow stronger in your decay.
Khorne, though not being shown this way enough by GW, is straight forward, standing up and fighting your foes in person, fighting those who are worth the fight over pathetic cowards and weaklings. No lies, no bullcrap, just look you in the face violence.
Slaanesh is about seducing your enemy, turning them to your side, lying, using peoples thoughts and emotions against them, attacking the weak because it is easy and fun, stabbing someone in the back. This use of people's emotions means many champions can be icons of perfection in one arena, as it was their love for this that turned them.
I've only glanced back at this thread, but if they seriously are getting rid of Slaanesh, I will not be spending money at GW any more.
notice how your interpretation of slaanesh could easily fall into nurgles category and tzeentch and a bit like "skaven" (skaven could be slaanesh, live fast, die faster, excess, lying, attack the weak, what if slaanesh and the horned god had the dance of love and became a new god) either way, they could have just changed the symbol because the symbol was too sexual (hermaphrodite symbol?) and slaanesh is all there and safe.
edlowe wrote: Im pretty sure now that I've seen that rune before, maybe in the old realm of chaos book in the dark tongue rune page? Or maybe the old beastmen book.
slaanesh was the weakest god so he fused/or/joined with the horned god to become something entirely new and stronger...sex with rats is the new theme.
GW lacked the subtlety to do Slaanesh properly, instead going for your average 10 year old's idea of "naughty things."
Even Tzeentch, who gets shoved to the bottom constantly, has better development, execution and intrigue surrounding him.
It doesn't help some of Slaanesh's descriptions can come off as somewhat transphobic (not trying to start a huge debate, I don't personally think Slaanesh is transphobic but I see how others could).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ImAGeek wrote: Seeing as daemons are the same in both games, if they remove Slaanesh what would that mean for 40k?
Seeing as Eidolon (ECHQ) is going to be released soon, I doubt it. Most people are theorizing that (s)he is being eliminated purely from Fanatasy due to the new "kid-friendly" direction AoS is hurtling at bone shattering speeds towards.
edlowe wrote: Im pretty sure now that I've seen that rune before, maybe in the old realm of chaos book in the dark tongue rune page? Or maybe the old beastmen book.
slaanesh was the weakest god so he fused/or/joined with the horned god to become something entirely new and stronger...sex with rats is the new theme.
Sex with scheming, diseased, warmongering rats that is. Ultimately, there can only be one
edlowe wrote: Im pretty sure now that I've seen that rune before, maybe in the old realm of chaos book in the dark tongue rune page? Or maybe the old beastmen book.
slaanesh was the weakest god so he fused/or/joined with the horned god to become something entirely new and stronger...sex with rats is the new theme.
Sex with scheming, diseased, warmongering rats that is. Ultimately, there can only be one
its a perfect fit for slaanesh, plus the Verminlord with boobies would rock...
Feel free to suggest an extremely concise alternative.
Well I wasn't expecting a moderator to be smart aleck over a simple request..
This post title is super misleading. Its basically like Slaanesh is being removed from the game entirely. A retcon implies all traces of the character are gone, histories, events, everything regarding them. This is far from a retcon, we even have leak evidence to the contrary now. All I asked is if it could be changed to avoid the annoying knee jerk reactions we're already seeing a lot of. There was no reason for an attitude, its not like i demanded it or put in a report.
This thread is already toxic without feeding into the frenzy of people thinking AOS is the end of existence for everything moreso than it already is.
ImAGeek wrote: Seeing as daemons are the same in both games, if they remove Slaanesh what would that mean for 40k?
I'm pretty sure that slannesh is not being removed that fact that he gets named in the new fluff as being captured, not destroyed, lead me to expect that he's going to be a big part of the narrative in the upcoming first book. I think he may play a different role in the storyline going forward, which could be interesting, and maybe lead to a new direction for him and the other gods. I think we've already seen some development for the chaos gods, I dont remember the canibal side of khorne workship being such a big thing as it appears in the new khornate faction, maybe they'll revamp slaaneshy faction in the same way.
GW lacked the subtlety to do Slaanesh properly, instead going for your average 10 year old's idea of "naughty things."
Even Tzeentch, who gets shoved to the bottom constantly, has better development, execution and intrigue surrounding him.
It doesn't help some of Slaanesh's descriptions can come off as somewhat transphobic (not trying to start a huge debate, I don't personally think Slaanesh is transphobic but I see how others could).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ImAGeek wrote: Seeing as daemons are the same in both games, if they remove Slaanesh what would that mean for 40k?
Seeing as Eidolon (ECHQ) is going to be released soon, I doubt it. Most people are theorizing that (s)he is being eliminated purely from Fanatasy due to the new "kid-friendly" direction AoS is hurtling at bone shattering speeds towards.
I almost want to say I wouldn't miss Slaanesh in fantasy much as well. (I would miss it in 40k however, a lot of it due to the Emperor's Children etc). I definitely will miss the idea of what Slaanesh could have been if GW had done things right. But Slaanesh as he/she is right now in fantasy doesn't interest me one bit. Hopefully GW does something more interesting with Slaanesh this time around, in terms of both fluff and models. I'm hoping Slaanesh doesn't merge with anything Skaven related though, the two just don't go together well. But anything involving Morathi/Malekith could work...or going under some kind of transformation into something that allows for better models.
Where is it stated that Slaanesh is imprisoned? I'm trying to remember how Morathi's interaction with Slaanesh in the Vortex played out in Khaine but I'm drawing a bit of a blank.
Also the graphic descriptions of Khornate cannibalism in the novel seems like kid friendly isn't the first priority.
Eldarain wrote: Where is it stated that Slaanesh is imprisoned? I'm trying to remember how Morathi's interaction with Slaanesh in the Vortex played out in Khaine but I'm drawing a bit of a blank.
Also the graphic descriptions of Khornate cannibalism in the novel seems like kid friendly isn't the first priority.
This leak from 4chan, where we've gotten basically every other WD and "rulebook" leak to date.
Feel free to suggest an extremely concise alternative.
Well I wasn't expecting a moderator to be smart aleck over a simple request..
This post title is super misleading. Its basically like Slaanesh is being removed from the game entirely. A retcon implies all traces of the character are gone, histories, events, everything regarding them. This is far from a retcon, we even have leak evidence to the contrary now. All I asked is if it could be changed to avoid the annoying knee jerk reactions we're already seeing a lot of. There was no reason for an attitude, its not like i demanded it or put in a report.
This thread is already toxic without feeding into the frenzy of people thinking AOS is the end of existence for everything moreso than it already is.
That was a smart-ass, toxic response now? And there it just struck me as: give me something short and sweet to fit into the subject heading. Wow.
GW lacked the subtlety to do Slaanesh properly, instead going for your average 10 year old's idea of "naughty things."
Even Tzeentch, who gets shoved to the bottom constantly, has better development, execution and intrigue surrounding him.
It doesn't help some of Slaanesh's descriptions can come off as somewhat transphobic (not trying to start a huge debate, I don't personally think Slaanesh is transphobic but I see how others could).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ImAGeek wrote: Seeing as daemons are the same in both games, if they remove Slaanesh what would that mean for 40k?
Seeing as Eidolon (ECHQ) is going to be released soon, I doubt it. Most people are theorizing that (s)he is being eliminated purely from Fanatasy due to the new "kid-friendly" direction AoS is hurtling at bone shattering speeds towards.
I almost want to say I wouldn't miss Slaanesh in fantasy much as well. (I would miss it in 40k however, a lot of it due to the Emperor's Children etc). I definitely will miss the idea of what Slaanesh could have been if GW had done things right. But Slaanesh as he/she is right now in fantasy doesn't interest me one bit. Hopefully GW does something more interesting with Slaanesh this time around, in terms of both fluff and models. I'm hoping Slaanesh doesn't merge with anything Skaven related though, the two just don't go together well. But anything involving Morathi/Malekith could work...or going under some kind of transformation into something that allows for better models.
they kinda do if you ask me... slaanesh at its purest is excess... correct? using deception, attacking the weak, lying, cheating, using too much risk (like overdosing) that is pretty much skaven (and rats and excess kinda go together, I mean they eat each other, overeat, kill, constantly fight, they have short lives and therefore live the largest way possible, slaanesh is all about that, living fast, dying faster, rat like)... plus slaanesh was the "weakest" of the gods, maybe joining with the rat man gave him a needed boost... and it would give skaven a new thing to roll with, rat men high on chaos dust fighting with boobies out.
Feel free to suggest an extremely concise alternative.
Well I wasn't expecting a moderator to be smart aleck over a simple request..
This post title is super misleading. Its basically like Slaanesh is being removed from the game entirely. A retcon implies all traces of the character are gone, histories, events, everything regarding them. This is far from a retcon, we even have leak evidence to the contrary now. All I asked is if it could be changed to avoid the annoying knee jerk reactions we're already seeing a lot of. There was no reason for an attitude, its not like i demanded it or put in a report.
This thread is already toxic without feeding into the frenzy of people thinking AOS is the end of existence for everything moreso than it already is.
That was a smart-ass, toxic response now? And there it just struck me as: give me something short and sweet to fit into the subject heading. Wow.
The italicized extremely concise bit. It seemed like he was just implying requesting a better title was a waste of his time and stupid to do.
if I was wrong, I apologize, but that definitely is what it came off as.
Eldarain wrote: Where is it stated that Slaanesh is imprisoned? I'm trying to remember how Morathi's interaction with Slaanesh in the Vortex played out in Khaine but I'm drawing a bit of a blank.
Also the graphic descriptions of Khornate cannibalism in the novel seems like kid friendly isn't the first priority.
This leak from 4chan, where we've gotten basically every other WD and "rulebook" leak to date.
Eldarain wrote: Where is it stated that Slaanesh is imprisoned? I'm trying to remember how Morathi's interaction with Slaanesh in the Vortex played out in Khaine but I'm drawing a bit of a blank.
Also the graphic descriptions of Khornate cannibalism in the novel seems like kid friendly isn't the first priority.
This leak from 4chan, where we've gotten basically every other WD and "rulebook" leak to date.
And that's my take, people are screaming KID FRIENDLY, which makes me laugh.
The quote doesn't actually say that they were successful
That's true, I hadn't really considered that.
I think we can connect the dots of "missing Slaanesh icon" and "attempt to capture him" by Sigmar's followers. It could be possible he died in the encounter though which would change things.
Feel free to suggest an extremely concise alternative.
Well I wasn't expecting a moderator to be smart aleck over a simple request..
This post title is super misleading. Its basically like Slaanesh is being removed from the game entirely. A retcon implies all traces of the character are gone, histories, events, everything regarding them. This is far from a retcon, we even have leak evidence to the contrary now. All I asked is if it could be changed to avoid the annoying knee jerk reactions we're already seeing a lot of. There was no reason for an attitude, its not like i demanded it or put in a report.
This thread is already toxic without feeding into the frenzy of people thinking AOS is the end of existence for everything moreso than it already is.
That was a smart-ass, toxic response now? And there it just struck me as: give me something short and sweet to fit into the subject heading. Wow.
The italicized extremely concise bit. It seemed like he was just implying requesting a better title was a waste of his time and stupid to do.
if I was wrong, I apologize, but that definitely is what it came off as.
I think you may be reading too much into it. There's only so much that can fit into the subject heading before bits start to disappear. I'd probably go with: slaanesh captured!
Feel free to suggest an extremely concise alternative.
Well I wasn't expecting a moderator to be smart aleck over a simple request..
That was a perfectly sincere post.
Than my sincerest apologies, the italicized extremely came off as kinda of jerkish in my misread. Simple miscommunication. I've been dealing with really, really uh, orkish? people all over the internet this morning and I assumed the worst.
Simply "Slaanesh Missing" fits much, much better given the presented information, as a retcon is a completely removal of everything in the backstory and overriding of their existence ever happening.
Also didn't realize it was you because your avatar was different on my phone for some reason or I would've known lol
I think you may be reading too much into it. There's only so much that can fit into the subject heading before bits start to disappear. I'd probably go with: slaanesh captured!
Slaanesh captured by Elves (Ælfs?), no less.
With writers more talented than GW's current lot, I could see some interesting 40K parallels too.
Eldarain wrote: Where is it stated that Slaanesh is imprisoned? I'm trying to remember how Morathi's interaction with Slaanesh in the Vortex played out in Khaine but I'm drawing a bit of a blank.
Also the graphic descriptions of Khornate cannibalism in the novel seems like kid friendly isn't the first priority.
This leak from 4chan, where we've gotten basically every other WD and "rulebook" leak to date.
And that's my take, people are screaming KID FRIENDLY, which makes me laugh.
The quote doesn't actually say that they were successful
That's true, I hadn't really considered that.
I think we can connect the dots of "missing Slaanesh icon" and "attempt to capture him" by Sigmar's followers. It could be possible he died in the encounter though which would change things.
I definitely open to different interpretation, but thats the problem with only have that one line to work with. The next white dwarf is meant to have more details with the tagline 'where is the dark prince?'which implies hes either missing or somewhere you would not expect? Either sounds interesting.
I'm wondering who the improbable allies are and how they managed to invade the realm of chaos?
Eldarain wrote: Where is it stated that Slaanesh is imprisoned? I'm trying to remember how Morathi's interaction with Slaanesh in the Vortex played out in Khaine but I'm drawing a bit of a blank.
Also the graphic descriptions of Khornate cannibalism in the novel seems like kid friendly isn't the first priority.
This leak from 4chan, where we've gotten basically every other WD and "rulebook" leak to date.
And that's my take, people are screaming KID FRIENDLY, which makes me laugh.
The quote doesn't actually say that they were successful
That's true, I hadn't really considered that.
I think we can connect the dots of "missing Slaanesh icon" and "attempt to capture him" by Sigmar's followers. It could be possible he died in the encounter though which would change things.
I definitely open to different interpretation, but thats the problem with only have that one line to work with. The next white dwarf is meant to have more details with the tagline 'where is the dark prince?'which implies hes either missing or somewhere you would not expect? Either sounds interesting.
I'm wondering who the improbable allies are and how they managed to invade the realm of chaos?
I'm really hoping they bring into the fold some of the other Empire gods, they really all started falling behind in more modern lore and so many of them are cool. It'd be nice to see some of them set up and form factions in the new world.
I think you may be reading too much into it. There's only so much that can fit into the subject heading before bits start to disappear. I'd probably go with: slaanesh captured!
Slaanesh captured by Elves (Ælfs?), no less.
With writers more talented than GW's current lot, I could see some interesting 40K parallels too.
Feel free to suggest an extremely concise alternative.
Well I wasn't expecting a moderator to be smart aleck over a simple request..
That was a perfectly sincere post.
Than my sincerest apologies, the italicized extremely came off as kinda of jerkish in my misread. Simple miscommunication. I've been dealing with really, really uh, orkish? people all over the internet this morning and I assumed the worst.
Simply "Slaanesh Missing" fits much, much better given the presented information, as a retcon is a completely removal of everything in the backstory and overriding of their existence ever happening.
Also didn't realize it was you because your avatar was different on my phone for some reason or I would've known lol
I think your understanding of the term retcon is a little off dude. It is simply making a change in an established chronology. It can be something as simple as changing an origin story, or even a name of a character. It doesn't necessarily mean surgically removing the existence of a character.
This one seems misleading. We don't know if that new symbol stands for Slaanesh or something else. Also, the term "retcon" is a portmanteau of retroactive and continuity; it just means that something previously established has been retroactively changed. It doesn't necessarily mean that the previously established character, fact, event, etc, has been removed. I think I will leave it as it is until we have more info.
Feel free to suggest an extremely concise alternative.
Well I wasn't expecting a moderator to be smart aleck over a simple request..
That was a perfectly sincere post.
Than my sincerest apologies, the italicized extremely came off as kinda of jerkish in my misread. Simple miscommunication. I've been dealing with really, really uh, orkish? people all over the internet this morning and I assumed the worst.
Simply "Slaanesh Missing" fits much, much better given the presented information, as a retcon is a completely removal of everything in the backstory and overriding of their existence ever happening.
Also didn't realize it was you because your avatar was different on my phone for some reason or I would've known lol
I think your understanding of the term retcon is a little off dude. It is simply making a change in an established chronology. It can be something as simple as changing an origin story, or even a name of a character. It doesn't necessarily mean surgically removing the existence of a character.
To be fair thsi isn't a retcon as all the past fluff remains, its just a progression of the story line. If they'd changed it so there was never a god called slannesh and instead there was a different fourth god that would be a retcon. This is just a new event going forward. Imho.
Shadowclaimer wrote: I'd just say Slaanesh missing instead of retcon'd. Hell for all we know that might just be a revised Slaanesh icon and the 4chan leak is a lie.
they tried to capture slaanesh but failed but in the attempt slaanesh knew he needed more power (as in his abscence the other gods striked and stole some of his realm and he needed to get it back) and in a fit of madness he joined with the great maw and the horned rat to become the god of gluttony and excess.
I mean lets be honest, at this point, anything goes and we are all just throwing out ideas and I kinda like that, we all know slaanesh is not going anywhere and IMO slaanesh needed to become a bit more distinct (lore wise) from the other gods, his excess never made sense if you ask me, excess in violence could support khorne, excess if lies, tzeentch etc... his only other theme was "sex" which in itself was rather stupid, sex in war? come on...
the whole "slaanesh ate a lot of souls" could fit the point of gluttony maybe slaanesh did not fuse with other gods but just became a bit more distinct.. so I will say
Slaanesh - god of gluttony.. (still excess) but more distinct, think fat guys with nipple rings
Sounds romantic. Arranged by Slaanesh? Who was then kicked out of the Pantheon by the other Ruinous Powers, who are just too conservative to accept their love. Hopefully all will be revealed in the big book!
Retroactive continuity, or retcon for short,[1][2] is the alteration of previously established facts in the continuity of a fictional work.[3]
Its the direct alteration of things that already existed. Slaanesh not existing anymore in the new timeline isn't retroactive, its current changes to the story and current continuity. If they decided to re-attribute something Slaanesh did to someone else than that would be a retcon.
Missing is probably a bad term too, but its directly what we have given the exact leak from WD "The Dark Prince is missing" and a picture of his icon being gone.
I mean I don't care that much, its probably nothing to sit here and argue about. I just don't want to see this thread devolve into more AOS circlejerk bashing on tiny threads of information like it has been for 300 pages and I was afraid people would assume the worst with "retcon".
I think in general I just need to unsubscribe from this thread, its caused me nothing but stress and has led to me jumping at people I probably shouldn't a few too many times now.
bitethythumb wrote: I mean lets be honest, at this point, anything goes and we are all just throwing out ideas and I kinda like that, we all know slaanesh is not going anywhere and IMO slaanesh needed to become a bit more distinct (lore wise) from the other gods, his excess never made sense if you ask me, excess in violence could support khorne, excess if lies, tzeentch etc...]
There was some lore in a Daemons Army Book awhile back that Slaanesh was in fact getting stronger because of their excesses, and the other chaos gods knew it and were disconcerted. It was just a blurb, and a subtle one at that, but the implication was that he'd exceed them all, given time.
bitethythumb wrote: they could have just changed the symbol because the symbol was too sexual (hermaphrodite symbol?) and slaanesh is all there and safe.
I would actually be happy enough with this result.
My hope is Morathi.. and I don't think her presence in the 8th 'get you by' lists means a great deal for AoS lore going forward.
Although it will probably just be a new symbol for Slaanesh.. can't see it being the Horned Rat, it seems from the End Times story, and limited info we have so far they are still sitting on the underbelly of things Chaos side. Be'lakor seems possible, if a bit boring, never much of a fan of his.
Going on the End Times story, it seems for the most part it is carrying over into AoS.. Morathi was last seen being grabbed by Slaanesh, we know she served him previously, and if Tyrion captures him.. would she take the throne given half the chance.
Still think this just might be the start of some long running story mind, gives Slaanesh Demons something to be doing while side stepping the whole 'icky stuff' that seems to be the key reason GW avoids doing anything with him.. as they can't seem to come up with an interesting alternative.
I just can't wait to see if its a minor chaos deity. The lore in a few sources has mentioned now that there are thousands of them with various spheres of influence and power that the big four have to keep down. I'd love to see what another branch of Chaos could become for conversions, modeling, and armies.
bitethythumb wrote: they could have just changed the symbol because the symbol was too sexual (hermaphrodite symbol?) and slaanesh is all there and safe.
I would actually be happy enough with this result.
And yes, the odds all overlap in some ways.
I am going to go with slaanesh evolving to become the god of gluttony/excess and being a mixture of the great maw/or/skave/or/mixture of both and slaanesh, its the whole "feasting on souls" and the aelfs attempting to capture him when he has feasted, like he ate so much souls the dude was all fat and tired (like we get after Christmas meals) maybe giving him more distinction from the 40k counterpart and giving him more to work with..
I mean Slaanesh is my fav god next to nurgle but he always felt like he never belonged, always weak, his attributes always mixing with the other gods... he just felt off, gluttony as a theme could work for him as its a bit more distinct from excess... and could give him a better "theme" or should I say different theme (better is subjective)
Khorne, muscles, metal, blood
Nurgle, decay, bloating, disease
Tzeentch, pink, weird, robes
Slaanesh, fat, gold, nakedness (because man boobs are ok, ask the ogres)
To me the point of slaanesh is that his followers are depraved. Khorn guys are bassicly the kurgan from highlander. Killers who fight with brute force and over power people with might.
Slaanesh warriors are all jack the ripper and Ed Gein types. They kill, but what is horrofic about them is what they do AFTER killing someone. Like using the body in depraved rituals.
Other than the fact she's my fave character.. the idea that there would be a female Chaos God appeals greatly.. so I expect my hopes to be dashed to pieces in short order.
The idea that a mortal can become one of the Dark Gods is ... I dunno, very weird. Star Child weird. As in, it doesn't seem to make any sense whatsoever. The Ruinous Powers aren't really characters like Sigmar or the Emperor. They are manifestations of the Warp itself, or rather how the Warp appears from a certain psycho-emotional standpoint.
Manchu wrote: The idea that a mortal can become one of the Dark Gods is ... I dunno, very weird. Star Child weird. As in, it doesn't seem to make any sense whatsoever. The Ruinous Powers aren't really characters like Sigmar or the Emperor. They are manifestations of the Warp itself, or rather how the Warp appears from a certain psycho-emotional standpoint.
I agree, I don't see a mortal ascending to Chaos God form without an extensive, extensive build up to it.
Well you could argue she spent her entire life trying to one up her position, this would equal top of the pile.
Of course in all likelihood it won't be her. I'm just seeing that pic and thinking it really looks like her helm, but after throwing thirty odd years of story out the window for AoS, I am quickly coming around to the idea that anything could happen.
Manchu wrote: The idea that a mortal can become one of the Dark Gods is ... I dunno, very weird. Star Child weird. As in, it doesn't seem to make any sense whatsoever. The Ruinous Powers aren't really characters like Sigmar or the Emperor. They are manifestations of the Warp itself, or rather how the Warp appears from a certain psycho-emotional standpoint.
Ever heard of a Daemon Prince?
Interestingly, in older fluff, there were more than 4 chaos gods. There were hundreds/thousands of minor gods. It was said that when a god became too weak, they could survive by becoming a daemon. If that's the case, then it stands to reason that the opposite could occur. A powerful independent daemon could become a god. I doubt they would ever be able to rival the power of the big 4, but my point is, the progression of Mortal >Daemon >God is totally possible.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: The Slaanesh potential removal bugs meeeeee as I just started a Slaanesh force. It's still quite small but I was so looking forward to growing it. :(
Lockark wrote: To me the point of slaanesh is that his followers are depraved. Khorn guys are bassicly the kurgan from highlander. Killers who fight with brute force and over power people with might.
Slaanesh warriors are all jack the ripper and Ed Gein types. They kill, but what is horrofic about them is what they do AFTER killing someone. Like using the body in depraved rituals.
It does look like Morathi's head thingy. If she becomes some sort of Slaaneshi avatar and the model doesn't suck or look as ugly as sin. I'd be tempted.
My guess is that if they were planning to upgrade a mortal to godhood, I would guess they would promote Archaon.. He is pretty much the Sigmar of Chaos already.
primalexile wrote: My guess is that if they were planning to upgrade a mortal to godhood, I would guess they would promote Archaon.. He is pretty much the Sigmar of Chaos already.
Except Sigmar didn't get sucker punched by Grimgor
Manchu wrote: The idea that a mortal can become one of the Dark Gods is ... I dunno, very weird. Star Child weird. As in, it doesn't seem to make any sense whatsoever. The Ruinous Powers aren't really characters like Sigmar or the Emperor. They are manifestations of the Warp itself, or rather how the Warp appears from a certain psycho-emotional standpoint.
I agree, I don't see a mortal ascending to Chaos God form without an extensive, extensive build up to it.
maybe not ascending but becoming one with slaanesh... kinda like slaanesh eating her and then becoming something far more, I am still hoping for gluttony theme, there are not enough evil fatties in warhammer or miniatures in gerenal, and fat trannies turn me on... Ogre Kingdom was ok but I need more fatties.
primalexile wrote: My guess is that if they were planning to upgrade a mortal to godhood, I would guess they would promote Archaon.. He is pretty much the Sigmar of Chaos already.
Except Sigmar didn't get sucker punched by Grimgor
Nor did Archaon technically, that definitely was a retcon.
The first 
