I don't know what happened, but I got a primaris half of a dark imperium. Now looking at what to do with it.. So this question came up to my mind.
Have you been testing intercerssors with your BA and how have they performed?
With only a minor kitbashing and sacrificing a single primaris lieutenant I can do a 5man squad of primaris intercessors with sergeant having both auto-bolt rifle and a power sword. 10 3+ wounds for 94 points to fill up a troop choice. Sergeant has what, 3 attacks base? As a backfield objective holder sounds quite nice if you compare it to let's say tactical squad with a heavy weapon just sitting on an objective, although I've only used tacticals without transport a few times with heavy bolters for hellfire shells and after a try I've gone full mobile plasma/melta in a rhino/razorback or scouts.
Also 3man inceptors doesn't feel like it would do enough, so there's not much in the box for BA player.
I have been playing with the Primaris contents of Dark Imperium and I have been pleasantly surprised. Intercessors make better objective holders than Tactical squads in my experience as twice the number of wounds makes them very hard to shift, especially when in cover. Their shooting is just a little better too meaning that you have 5 guys that contribute rather 1 heavy weapon with 4 ablative wounds (which is how my Tactical squads often feel). Intercessors have an extra attacks which synergises nicely with Red Thirst.
Also Inceptors are very good, do not underestimate. Drop them in from Reserve and you have 18 S5 AP-1 shots on a target of your choice that cannot be alphaed. They are great for clearing chaff screens to allow your DC/SG/Slamguinius to charge more valuable targets and weight of fire is enough to bring down a small MEQ squad if you catch them out of cover. Inceptors also make great use of our "On wings of Fire" stratagem.
Hellblasters go very nicely with Standard of Sacrifice and a cheap Captain for rerolls (probably not the Gravis one as he is too pricey). They get a 5+++ save and they can Overcharge with minimal risk. If anyone dies to an unlucky overheat or enemy shooting, they get to make a parting shot on a 4+.
Played against my friends necrons, and won. He had first turn. I knew wraiths could cause problems, and they almost did. Fortunately for me he charged the wrong unit (the AM guard chaff), but he could have killed mephiston. He had that dynasty where units advance 6", and used a stratagem where he could charge after advancing. First he moved 16", then rolled a 12 on the charge. He could have moved over the chaff and give meph a really hard time, 5 wraiths attacking him would have killed him. I then focus fired the wraiths with my dev squad and two bolter inceptor squads. Meph finished them off in CC. Captn slammy was the star of the game. He killed a tomb sentinel, and almost took out a DDA by himself, nasty quantum shields saved it. I jumped him around the battlefield with upon wings of fire and charged with descent of angels. My CP regeneration combo worked great, i got 3 or 4 back and stole 2 from my opponent. Plasma inceptors killed a catacomb command barge before dying to a volley of shots from a doomsday cannon. The two DDAs took out my two stalkers, but it took them two turns, and the help of a sentry pylon. The company ancient failed to protect my inceptors with the standard of sacrifice, i failed pretty much all 5+++ rolls.
So. Jump pack captain. Thunder Hammer + relic (naturally). Do I give him a storm shield? Using him in a BA batallion allied with Custodes bikes (mostly the non character kind)
Also I’m really considering using 3 of those dudes, but Mephiston is also tempting
The SS does reduce damage from anything with AP1+ by 33%. Seems generally good to me. But i do sometimes leave it off if i am tight on points. I am also fond of giving my captains storm bolters.
luke1705 wrote: So. Jump pack captain. Thunder Hammer + relic (naturally). Do I give him a storm shield? Using him in a BA batallion allied with Custodes bikes (mostly the non character kind)
Also I’m really considering using 3 of those dudes, but Mephiston is also tempting
I haven't tried multiple but since a lot of the power comes from stratagems (3d6 Charge and extra D3 attacks) I can't see it scaling super well.
And yes I would bring a Storm Shield. He is a big threat the enemy can't ignore and you want him drawing as much firepower away from the rest of your army as possible.
Sure it does nothing against ap 0 but it takes some 50 bolter shots to have a 50/50 of killing him.
I magnetised mine so I could run him either with or without the shield. After my first battle, I have always taken shield and rarely regretted it.
If Captain Smash survives taking down his first big target (perfectly feasible if he beats up a tank or something similar) it is nice to have a bit of extra durability against the shooting he will inevitably face.
Captain smash is normally in a race to rack up as many kills as possible before he dies, anything that prolongs his lifespan is usually a good investment. Even if the enemy decides the most efficient way of killing him is massed small-arms fire, that is a lot of shooting that is not being directed at you line troops.
I have even experimented with running him with "Gift of Foresight" as Warlord trait rather than "Artisan of War" against shooty armies like Tau where the extra killing power is less necessary.
Just tried using a bunch of primaris. Very disappointing. Terrible firepower, and the only non-primaris model, the jump captain, did almost all the work.
Hellblasters are really poor vs drukhari it turns out.
Drukhari appear to be a tough nut to crack at the moment. Much like Chaos, all vehicles have a 5+ invul, which if they are running hot, can really shut down our shooting potential. Mix that with -1 to hit venoms and flyers and I can see why Hellblasters would have a hard time making an impact.
I would have thought that primaris marines parked in cover for 2+ saves would be decent against a bunch of poison shots though, unless he didn't run a kabalite army.
DE are a hard counter to Primaris to the point where I would not even bother playing the game. Their firepower and ability to lock you in combat will win them the game every time. Their easily spammable gun the disintegration gun is Assault 3 s5 ap-3 2 damage. It is tailor made to whipe out Primaris like they are nothing.
You know what guys? After getting my ass burned down by necrons and DE I came to the conclusion that there is no point in playing this game anymore as it is getting back tothe old horrific seventh edition where there s a race between the nutella spread out just for xenos. Marines always comes lut first and perform terribly. Thank you GW
Spado wrote: You know what guys? After getting my ass burned down by necrons and DE I came to the conclusion that there is no point in playing this game anymore as it is getting back tothe old horrific seventh edition where there s a race between the nutella spread out just for xenos. Marines always comes lut first and perform terribly. Thank you GW
Yeah, it was shocking how powerful an Eldar/Dark Eldar list I faced yesterday was. My very hot rolls and my Banner in the middle of my Devs were the only thing that kept me into the game until I called it. It makes me want to start playing my Guard again.
I don t like imperial soup at all, but I guess that any marine army need an AM detachment. I m thinking of purchasing some mortars to get rid of the screens and use the DC to smash something juicy. I m sick of loosing DC for nothing
EldarExarch wrote: Drukhari appear to be a tough nut to crack at the moment. Much like Chaos, all vehicles have a 5+ invul, which if they are running hot, can really shut down our shooting potential. Mix that with -1 to hit venoms and flyers and I can see why Hellblasters would have a hard time making an impact.
I would have thought that primaris marines parked in cover for 2+ saves would be decent against a bunch of poison shots though, unless he didn't run a kabalite army.
He had a way to ignore cover on all his flyers or anything riding in a flyer. And yes, disintegrators are hilarious.
Well, the new Beta Rule that only allows units arriving from Reserves in the first battle round to only be set up in their own deployment zone seems to knee-cap our Sanguinary Guard and Death Company. I am really hoping that this rule doesn't stick.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Well, the new Beta Rule that only allows units arriving from Reserves in the first battle round to only be set up in their own deployment zone seems to knee-cap our Sanguinary Guard and Death Company. I am really hoping that this rule doesn't stick.
Forlorn Fury all the way for DC. No alpha striking SG at all though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just realized that my Inceptor Squads need to be redone. I had four. Now I need to reduce them down somehow.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Well, the new Beta Rule that only allows units arriving from Reserves in the first battle round to only be set up in their own deployment zone seems to knee-cap our Sanguinary Guard and Death Company. I am really hoping that this rule doesn't stick.
It's not that big of a deal, and hurts some other units much worse, imo.
More CP and clarification on hellfire/flakk cherub interaction makes balances out the lack of alpha. I’m fairly content. Hoping our faq gets updated like vanilla, and that Baal pred killshot is addressed.
Can I use upon wings of fire to redeploy an unit T1 in the enemy deployment zone? It did start on the table. So I can still Forlon's fury a squad of DC closer and use the upon wings of fire on another unit, right? I've found myself using T1 one unit with DoA and on T2 a second one with DoA to maximize charge chances, so that ain't that big deal.
Xirax wrote: Can I use upon wings of fire to redeploy an unit T1 in the enemy deployment zone? It did start on the table. So I can still Forlon's fury a squad of DC closer and use the upon wings of fire on another unit, right? I've found myself using T1 one unit with DoA and on T2 a second one with DoA to maximize charge chances, so that ain't that big deal.
I can't see why not. It satisfies the conditions required. It makes our Alpha Strikes more expensive in terms of CP, but the Battalion CP boost helps with that.
EldarExarch wrote: Drukhari appear to be a tough nut to crack at the moment. Much like Chaos, all vehicles have a 5+ invul, which if they are running hot, can really shut down our shooting potential. Mix that with -1 to hit venoms and flyers and I can see why Hellblasters would have a hard time making an impact.
Volume of fire seems to be the ticket here. Assault Cannon RBs and Bolter Inceptors perhaps?
Q: When a unit that can Fly declares a charge move against a
unit that is on the upper levels of a ruin, do I need to include
the vertical distance when making the subsequent charge move
for the unit?
A: No. A unit that can Fly effectively ignores vertical
distances when making a charge move. Note though that
the charging unit must still be within 12" (measured
directly ‘base-to-base’, i.e. diagonally) to be able to
declare the charge in the first place.
Our JP units can now make free vertical charges. If there is an enemy unit on the second floor of a ruin (6" above ground) i can deepstrike 9" diagonally away. The charge distance would only be 6-7" (6,7" is the exact horizontal distance). FLY units now ignore vertical distance when charging. The 6-7" charge move ( i need to get within 1" to make a successful charge) would take me right below the enemy units, the 6" vertical distance is ignored (free movement).
3 datasheets, each 6 inceptors, 3x6=18. And I'll be betting tournaments will be taking beta rules in right away. They took last ones too, no reason they don't take them now as well.
tneva82 wrote: 3 datasheets, each 6 inceptors, 3x6=18. And I'll be betting tournaments will be taking beta rules in right away. They took last ones too, no reason they don't take them now as well.
Another beta rule. Is this really a problem ? Have you ever played with 18 inceptors ? Thats 810 pts.
tneva82 wrote: 3 datasheets, each 6 inceptors, 3x6=18. And I'll be betting tournaments will be taking beta rules in right away. They took last ones too, no reason they don't take them now as well.
Another beta rule. Is this really a problem ? Have you ever played with 18 inceptors ? Thats 810 pts.
And like smite and character smite rules pretty much quaranteed to be used.
And whether 18 inceptors limit is problem I don't know. I avoid primaris since putting them on would break our campaign big time due to huge fluff misalligments. Scale of universal destruction due to time paradoxes etc.
Just noted "why". You asked "why we are capped at 18". I answered. Whether that limit is good or bad is irrelevant as they could be 1 pts per model and I would still field 0 of them.
So a Captain in Gravis Armor with Artisan of War can select his Boltstorm Gauntlet. This would make the Gauntlet d3+1 Damage in melee and 2D in shooting (albeit with no AP). Kinda want to see how that would work out.
Since I'm going to try the beta rule for deep strike, what shall I use to clear chaff to have juicy targets for my DC? Are aggressors a good option? However I think i ll have to get the repuslor aswell because their guns have a limited range.
Bremon wrote: AC Razorbacks are about as efficient as we get for clearing chaff, without using Forlorn Fury to catapult a unit of DC through no man’s land early on.
Pretty much, and since they aren't subject to the datasheet limitation, you can run a bunch of them. Inceptors are decent as well, but they lack the effective range of an Assback (36" effective range on an Assback vs the 28" for Inceptors if not advancing). Inceptors will have a better BS for their shooting, so it is a bit of a trade-off. However, Inceptors can use Upon Wings of Fire and jump anywhere on the board to wherever they are needed most.
Limited to 18” Inceptors also likely won’t drop into range until turn 2 in the new rules so will have a difficult time clearing space for units like Sanguinary Guard to drop in, unless you want your hammers dropping in turn 3 when you have very little anvil left.
Start a unit of inceptors on the board, out of line of sight. Wings of Fire to wherever needed...
I have been, from the beginning, running six 5 man tactical squads with missile launchers or heavy bolters, and will definitely continue doing so now. Turn 2 descent is something I did from time to time anyway...
Forlorn Fury is the thing...have no experience with it. Anyone have a ton of Forlorn Fury experience under their belt and would like to give it a thumbs up or down?
I think it’s firmly up in the air whether or not OWOF allows you to do that first turn...when we finally get our FAQ updated it will probably clarify that we aren’t allowed to have advantages lol even for one unit. And if it is possible to use that, who in their right mind would use forlorn fury when they can hide DC and descend some angels on wings of fire instead?
Just out of curiosity I'm trying to adapt to the new beta rules..
Is this where we are at?
Sanguinary priest is there for being a HQ and sang noviate.. so +14 CP. Maybe two batallion's is too much? but can't really put stuff in reserves either. List should be quite self explanatory, capt goes with the gunline for 1-2 turns before UWOF. Primaris are there for multi-wound and I just want to try them out, shouldn't bring down the competitiveness to much.
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 93pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Special weapon): Plasma gun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 93pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Special weapon): Plasma gun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
+ Elites +
Death Company [18 PL, 224pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power fist
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power fist
What do you think, are we diminished to have such small T2 chargers.. Capt, Mephy and the DC with Lemmy can still bring some hurt, but not T1. Except maybe Mephy if you want to sacrifice it. I wouldn't bother using Forlon's fury with these, just shoot, board control and when I see gaps in the enemy ranks I bring the assault.
One CP isn’t worth paying for 5 HQ that total 26% of your points. I’d add ablative wounds to your Devs. As is your heavy support is easily destroyed leaving you with lots of mediocre grunts and a pile of DC that will bounce off the heavy stuff. Once your Devs are gone your anti-tank amounts to captain smash and 5 Hellblasters. Less than ideal at 2k points. Even if your Devs aren’t smashed you don’t have enough antitank.
You’re not far off from what I like to field. Las/plasDevs with ablative wounds, intercessors for midfield, tac squads are best with a missile launcher imo, they can sit on objectives and sometimes get ignored: plasma gets up close and dies: we have better stuff to get close with. SG are a must take for me; they form part of my anti-tank/monsters. AC Razorbacks, and a pile of razors in general are good (protect your Devs, lots of dakka, fewer drops, etc.). When I add in disposable trashto try to get CP I end up getting burned (sanguinary novice is firmly in the trash column for my money). 13 for 2 battalions is plenty. I try to put a cap on characters so I don’t end up with too few bodies. 4 HQ feels like plenty to me. I strongly dislike scouts.
Q: When a unit that can Fly declares a charge move against a
unit that is on the upper levels of a ruin, do I need to include
the vertical distance when making the subsequent charge move
for the unit?
A: No. A unit that can Fly effectively ignores vertical
distances when making a charge move. Note though that
the charging unit must still be within 12" (measured
directly ‘base-to-base’, i.e. diagonally) to be able to
declare the charge in the first place.
Our JP units can now make free vertical charges. If there is an enemy unit on the second floor of a ruin (6" above ground) i can deepstrike 9" diagonally away. The charge distance would only be 6-7" (6,7" is the exact horizontal distance). FLY units now ignore vertical distance when charging. The 6-7" charge move ( i need to get within 1" to make a successful charge) would take me right below the enemy units, the 6" vertical distance is ignored (free movement).
Martel732 wrote: You can't get enough of them. The bolter inceptors all die in one turn to disintegrators.
And we max out at 18 total Inceptors. And we can't deploy them anywhere they can be useful on turn 1.
Why do we max out at 18 inceptors ? The we can't deploy them anywhere they can be useful on turn 1 is a beta rule. Not official right now.
It's also worth noting that charging into ruins got nerfed significantly. Now if the unit cannot end its movement on the same level as the target it charged then the charge fails.
So the best way to deal with a charge is to hide in a building and stand on a stool?
Has anyone gained any mileage using Stormravens again? I was thinking of building a list with one to help my turn 2 deepstrike, but they look like a huge flying bullseye for most gunlines.
Voidwraith wrote: Forlorn Fury is the thing...have no experience with it. Anyone have a ton of Forlorn Fury experience under their belt and would like to give it a thumbs up or down?
Main downside with FF is that you can only use it on one unit. If you use it on the DC, you cannot bring Lemartes with them to buff them.
Based on that I would say the best target for FF is probably Captain Smash. Position him on the table as you would for a normal buff-mander. If you get Turn 1 and a suitable target presents itself, use FF to jump up the field and hit it. If not, buff your shooting on Turn 1 and play UWOF on him on Turn 2.
Bring your heavy hitters like DC/SG in on Turn 2 with DOA as per currently.
The FAQ hinders us but not fatally I think. We have enough tools in our box to work around it. That may be an optimistic assessment, we will have to see whether it works in practice.
Martel732 wrote: Depending on how badly this faq ends up favoring ig and eldar, im continuing with my plans to soup. Still thinking double punisher.
I think this is the correct takeaway. The DS change only holds off our shenanigans for 1 turn, but it really benefits ranged and gun line armies in a massive way. How much so...time will tell.
The big sad problem still remains: how do I survive the turn one brutality? You guys have to help me please I'm loosing faith in this edition and I don't want to play my blood angels as blood ravens and get the RG chapter tactics...
Spado wrote: The big sad problem still remains: how do I survive the turn one brutality? You guys have to help me please I'm loosing faith in this edition and I don't want to play my blood angels as blood ravens and get the RG chapter tactics...
Use lots of LOS blocking terrain. Deploy scouts on the battlefield, scout bikers (these are insanely good for the points), and whirlwinds, which dont need LOS. The rest will deepstrike. The alpha strike can only hit the scouts and scout bikers, which are both cheap. Whirlwinds cant be shot at, unless your opponent has arty. You may also soup with IG, bring cheap disposable troops, knight commander pask and a company commander as a batallion. Pask is also insanely good. 200 pts for a T8 W12 tank with 2D6 rerollable S8 AP-2 D3 shots, hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s. The company commander with grand strategist and kurovs aquila will bring you CPs back, and harvest some from your opponent. You can also add the veritas vitae, if the dice gods are in your favor you can double your command points during the game, almost for free, the additional veritas vitae only costs 1 CP.
If DC is dead, because forlon's fury needs you to go first..
Then it's SG for the DoA T2.. Or is an VV with storm shields a valid option?
Problem with SG is I like the sacred banner on an SG ancient, but it's with the gunline's company ancient.. Which one's better to be boosted with 5+ FnP?
Now that DC is out.. What's our fourth HQ.. Slam, Mephy, lieutenant.. And? Lib dread, nah? Sanguinor to go with the SG bomb? Jump librarian to give unleash rage?
Gunline with small screen and buffers is a good start on every list.. Razorbacks feel good too.. Lot to meditate on.
If DC is dead, because forlon's fury needs you to go first..
Then it's SG for the DoA T2.. Or is an VV with storm shields a valid option?
Problem with SG is I like the sacred banner on an SG ancient, but it's with the gunline's company ancient.. Which one's better to be boosted with 5+ FnP?
Now that DC is out.. What's our fourth HQ.. Slam, Mephy, lieutenant.. And? Lib dread, nah? Sanguinor to go with the SG bomb? Jump librarian to give unleash rage?
Gunline with small screen and buffers is a good start on every list.. Razorbacks feel good too.. Lot to meditate on.
I think the death of DC is greatly exaggerated. I normally assault with mine on Turn 2 anyway. Turn 1 normally has screens, unclear target priorities (and often Captain Smash having first call on DoA).
SG are much better if you want a squad that can move up the field as they are a lot more durable than DC, particularly if you have the SoS with them. I also find SG benefit much more from character aura buffs. This means I don't like assaulting from reserves as the characters will often fail to charge with them. If the SG and buff characters move up the field for a T2 charge, they can bring their character support with them.
Best target for the SoS is a tough call. I would normally go with whoever has the most points per wound. Saving SG is more valuable than a bolter marine from a Dev squad but less valuable than a Dev Marine with lascannon. I would go for putting it with the SG but YMMV.
Sanguinor is really good with the SG but very expensive. Jump Libby or Jump Priest are also really good and will give decent mileage for fewer points. +1S on Encarmine swords is really good, as is the ability to restore lost wounds.
I'm having a semi-free weekend so I could make a quick test game and a report for us to see where we are at, it's only a single game, but let's make most of it? If even a single person would be interested I'll gladly do it.
What would be a good counter for a let's say 1500 point game?
These opponents I can get hand on..
- CSM Alpha legion with three squads of 9man zerkers being forward operatives and a gunline..
- Primaris RG force
- Death guard plague spitter spam with either poxwalkers or plague marines
- Dark Angel's gunline
What do you think is the most hardest for us?
point limit is tweakable up to 2k if my all painted up model standard on my batreps can be altered on this occasion.
You guys do know that this T1 in your own deployment zone deepstrike rule is only a beta rule ? If you play tournaments, they may use it, or not. It may be used in the future as an official rule, it may be changed, or not used at all. Why is everyone pretending this is the end of BA ?
p5freak wrote: You guys do know that this T1 in your own deployment zone rule deepstrike is only a beta rule ? If you play tournaments, they may use it, or not. It may be used in the future as an official rule, it may be changed, or not used at all. Why is everyone pretending this is the end of BA ?
You don't seem to know that the sky is falling!
..but anyways, we as BA need to test it, show how it affects, give feedback to GW and cross our fingers..
p5freak wrote: You guys do know that this T1 in your own deployment zone rule deepstrike is only a beta rule ? If you play tournaments, they may use it, or not. It may be used in the future as an official rule, it may be changed, or not used at all. Why is everyone pretending this is the end of BA ?
In the past, most tournaments have adopted such rules very quickly and I would put good money on them doing so now. The parts of the FAQ that deal with various spam lists is pretty good IMHO and I suspect that most TOs will accept the collateral damage on BAs.
Best advice is to right in and explain that we have been hit overly hard.
Someone already pointed out that you can deploy a JP unit in your own deployment zone, remove it from the battlefield, and set it up again with UWOF in the first turn, 9" away from enemy models. The unit didnt arrive during a players first turn. It was already on the battlefield.
There's debates on UWOF if you can really use it T1, because you remove the unit from the battlefield and set it up again. I think we need an official FAQ about it. If we can use it, it's no biggie and we are still in a sweet spot, imho. But I doubt we can use it. It's stupid though, when you can use likes of the forward operatives or the strike from the shadows..
The opponent may not agree, just as I will not agree to lots of places for infantry to be unassaultable.
How much LOS blocking are you talking about? On our tables a unit deployed in your zone at the start of the game can see, at most, 50% of the enemy deployment zone. Often less. If a squad has two shooting lanes when it’s deployed it’s doing well. No one complains, and games always go the distance. No one likes being tabled and if we use less terrain then dakkafex/exocrine and marine heavy weapons put in all the work.
While I do agree with the logic shown in that thread, I believe this is an example of unintended consequences. I, of course, have no proof that UWOF would not count as "deployment" and thus allow me to move around where I'd like, but I did read this today on one of GWsFaq Low Down articles:
You’ll still be able to use your Tactical Reserves to keep units safe in the first turn, and Stratagems that allow redeployment still have a strong niche but now, to make the best use of your units that deploy from reserves, you’ll have to wait until the second turn. When playing against a list that uses loads of reserves, you’ll have the chance to prepare your strategies, spread out and tackle key elements of the enemy army before they attack.
The key part that makes me believe UWOF would allow a Jump Pack unit that was deployed on the board turn 1 to move anywhere as normal is "and Stratagems that allow redeployment still have a strong niche". It doesn't PROVE that my feeling is right, but it definitely makes me think that there's a chance it'll be allowed...
The key part that makes me believe UWOF would allow a Jump Pack unit that was deployed on the board turn 1 to move anywhere as normal is "and Stratagems that allow redeployment still have a strong niche". It doesn't PROVE that my feeling is right, but it definitely makes me think that there's a chance it'll be allowed...
I'm from eastern Finland where we have this motto: "A pessimist will not get disappointed."
p5freak wrote: You guys do know that this T1 in your own deployment zone deepstrike rule is only a beta rule ? If you play tournaments, they may use it, or not. It may be used in the future as an official rule, it may be changed, or not used at all. Why is everyone pretending this is the end of BA ?
So far, all the beta rules have become actual rules. BA weren't that great after these three Xeno codices, and the faq has just put the "!" on an existing issue.
Why do you play against IG then? I can’t imagine transporting and setting up models, rolling dice, and removing those models knowing that too much terrain and you lose, not enough terrain and you lose, and without allying in lots of Guard yourself, you lose. That sounds incredibly stupid.
One more point on the UWOF is that atleast i've used with conjuction with DoA, so could I still deploy on battlefield and then combo a UWOF+DoA my capt Slam or blob of DC on my enemy?
Xirax wrote: One more point on the UWOF is that atleast i've used with conjuction with DoA, so could I still deploy on battlefield and then combo a UWOF+DoA my capt Slam or blob of DC on my enemy?
Current rules as written, no. Frontline gaming addressed UWOF today and said as much. They also pointed out that the FAQs that address this are legacy FAQs that were made without these new tweaks to the game, and admitted that they did not know the answer to how GW may answer this specific, new issue.
The power level limitation in a points game is the most short sighted part of the rule, before even getting to the fact that, whether it was a good idea or not, the simple threat of having a t1 deep strike kept people honest. Made them bring the right amount of screens and place defensively etc. Now they have a turn where GW screens for them.
But dealing with the incredibly dumb PL limitation: you can cheaply increase your PL on board by putting a 6th man in scout, tactical, or dev squads, to get a cheap 8, 10, or 11 PL squad respectively. (Which honestly shows just how dumb the rule is.)
My reply to a different thread regarding Upon Wings of Fire and also Gate of Infinity/Da Jump psychic powers:
It's Upon Wings of Fire, correction on the name, and also it's not at the end of the movement phase, but before moving a jump pack unit on the table.
Here's the exact wording:
Gate of infinity has a similar wording regarding being set up.
Here's the new deployment rules from the Community page.
Now a couple of key things to note here.
In the second paragraph it specifically notes the unit as Arriving on the tabletop and deploying those units (not setting up, deploying), meaning they have not been placed on the tabletop previously as units using GoI or Upon Wings of Fire both must be to use the psychic power or stratagem.
Also, the statement regarding the third paragraph noting that any units not deployed from reserve by the end of turn 3 are destroyed, and if using GoI or UWoF stratagem places units in reserve as some argue it would mean they are destroyed immediately if either is used. That's pants-on-head stupid if you're arguing that. They're abilities that allow for limited (one unit) additional movement and don't violate the new beta rule.
An example using the UWoF Strat.
-I use Forlorn Fury stratagem before the first turn of the game starts to move+advance my Death Company across the board. Then the game starts and the DC move a second time, landing within ~6" of an enemy unit.
-I then, in my movement phase prior to moving the model, use the Upon Wings of Fire stratagem to pick up my Lemartes model that had been deployed already and place it within 6" of the Death Company that already moved previously in the movement phase and also keep the model outside of 9" of any enemy models as well.
This does not violate the beta rules. Gate of infinity doesn't either. You can only target a single unit with it.
Just my view on it. Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
UWoF works fine on T1 with a unit that you deployed normally during Deployment. It's already arrived on the battlefield. It's when something coming in from deep strike/Battlefield Reserves enters and arrives that it triggers the Beta rules for only landing in your DZ on the first turn.
One ITC winner and Front Line Gaming(who btw mentioned in advance deep striking primarches would get FAQ'ed away...They seem to have some access to GW's thinkings) said no.
And yes it had arrived on battlefield. Then it left. You can't be on battlefield without arriving there so since you have left it you obviously need to arrive or you can't be there.
edit: Heard ETC also has leaned toward "no" as well.
The 'arriving on the table top doesn't count because they already arrived' is such abuse of the English language. Arriving means moving onto the board. UWOF specifically says remove from the board. Moving from from off the board and onto the board is arriving. Trying to play games and asserts that "you can't arrive twice" is relying on a motivated tautology. Where in the rules does it say that coming onto the board only counts as arriving once? Every damn time GW uses the word arrive they mean it every time the unit enters the board. Further, in the critical paragraph, it says ANY TIME, not just the first time. There is zero indication of some kind of concept of "only the first arrived counts as arrived" anywhere in the rules. This is just salty players fantasizing that GW didn't change the rules the way they did.
Ordana wrote: GW's designers really need a course in writing, because the rule says something different from what they meant.
We're using FAQs based on a version of the game that no longer exists to answer questions that weren't even being asked (because the problems, at the moment of those FAQs, didn't exist). They're legacy rulings, and based on the entirely new state of the game, it's possible GW did not forsee how we'd apply all of the nuances of every legacy FAQ to the new, tweaked rules.
Seems that we really need to flood the GW mail box to get answer for the UWOF question.
Aside that, I wonder if you fellow dakkanists could help me out a bit. Our mini-highlander tourney has changed as a practice torney for our LGS tourney on may, so I have two 1k tourneys coming up and I'm having really hard time figuring out how to get a BA feel to my lists.
On the scratch board there's:
Slam
lieutenant
Mephy / sang ancient
scouts and maybe a single intercessor squad to fill out the batallion
for the T2 charge there's a 6man SG
And for shooting a hellblaster and a dev squad with ML. I'm some how fond on the multi-wound on those hellblasters. I think that a second heavy support is better than a plasma tacticals on a razorback in damage output.
I'm expecting to face atleast Ad Mech, Necrons and DG all resilient and the first two are very shooty. At this moment sounds an uphill struggle..
Anyone any suggestions are most welcome, tourney format is tweaked supply drop.
About that Facebook answer. It was a non answer. Of course you can use UWOF in the first turn. But that isn't the real question. The real question is can you use UWOF in the first turn Outside Of Your Deployment Zone. FB didn't answer that question.
I think Hellblasters are cool but don’t work well; our squads are at their best when they have maximum damage potential regardless of whether or not we get first turn. Each Hellblaster that dies linearly affects their damage output. Mini marines have the benefit of ablative wounds, while our heavy hitters have the benefit of being in orbit until we roll 3D6 to charge them where we need them. You need to maximize your output while being able to absorb losses, and Hellblasters are too expensive to lose a few before they can accomplish something for you. I love the models and have 15 of them but unless you’re playing RG or can hide them somewhere with a standard of sacrifice (that could be helping other units), you’re not doing yourself any favours. Especially at 1k points.
If I drop all the primaris I get this kinda list, but if we all agree that the first two turns are now for measuring more or less who has the most long range dakka, then I will definitely lose my shooting game against the necron and ad mech armies. So more guns and a single precision deep strike team with DoA, Mephy is point costy when you have Slam hanging there, but Mephy can be a real menace who wins games, don't you think?
Anyways here's the first draft, from where to tweak.. sniff, I miss my power sworded intercessor squad the most..
Wulfey wrote: About that Facebook answer. It was a non answer. Of course you can use UWOF in the first turn. But that isn't the real question. The real question is can you use UWOF in the first turn Outside Of Your Deployment Zone. FB didn't answer that question.
Did you read the part where it said according to the new tactical reserves rule ?
Wulfey wrote: About that Facebook answer. It was a non answer. Of course you can use UWOF in the first turn. But that isn't the real question. The real question is can you use UWOF in the first turn Outside Of Your Deployment Zone. FB didn't answer that question.
Did you read the part where it said according to the new tactical reserves rule ?
Sure. They are placeable again, according to the new Tactical Reserves Rule. Thus, they are placeable inside of your deployment zone. GW didn't leave any exceptions in there besides infiltration and GENESTEALERS. if:
ANY unit ARRIVES in the FIRST TURN Then it must go in your DEPLOYMENT ZONE
If there was a carve out for units that have already arrived once, then that carve out would have to be explicit. The GENESTEALER exception is the exhaustive list of exceptions. The 'but the second arrive doesn't count' has no basis in any text anywhere, and the BRB is rife with use of the term ARRIVE in reference to any time a model comes onto the board. There is no notion of second arrives not counting as arrives.
Plus let's not forget source isn't even official source for rule answers so even if that was 100% crystal clear answer if you come into game and try it and opponent disagrees only OFFICIAL arqument you have is the official FAQ which is unclear. This wouldn't be much of help since it's unofficial.
Hopefully GW puts up official note one way or other soon. Hopefully "yes" so my orks can get little help but if "no" then...well orks are so boned rulewise(being outshot and being toughed out by IG! Outshot I can understand but being softer target than IG squads...) that this doesn't change things either way. I just want clear official answer one way or other so I don't have to discuss it every single new opponent! Shouldn't be too much to ask seeing how much we pay of models.
Martel732 wrote: I've been putting a Stalker in every list, and never regretting it. I'm considering getting two.
I'm still not a huge fan of hellblasters. Maybe post-faq I'll warm up?
The current list concept that's perculating in my brain while I'm sitting here at work has me fielding 2, maybe even 3 Stalkers... What's the actual point cost for them again? I think it's 124, but I've never actually played with one, so I could easily have that wrong...
Sorry guys. I was wrong. The warhammer community team has come out and clarified the RAW on the 'no deep strike' nerf. I asked:
Say I start my Bloodangels jumppack captain on the board in my deployment zone. Can I use Upon Wings Of Fire in my first turn to move the captain 9" from an enemy model and OUTSIDE of my deployment zone?
Wulfey wrote: Sorry guys. I was wrong. The warhammer community team has come out and clarified the RAW on the 'no deep strike' nerf. I asked:
Say I start my Bloodangels jumppack captain on the board in my deployment zone. Can I use Upon Wings Of Fire in my first turn to move the captain 9" from an enemy model and OUTSIDE of my deployment zone?
So yes, you can UWOF a captain that started on the board and then 3d6 charge. Smash captains now, smash captains forever.
I agree with this, and will be pushing for this locally, but also realize that the majority of us have, for some stupid reason, adopted the mentality of "unless GW puts it in an official FAQ, we must play it by the most-rules-lawyery way possible" even when someone at GW tells us not to...even if it is akin to stepping on a rake over and over again...
I'm interested in hearing what Frontline gaming has to say about this moving forward. They're playtesters and have GWs ear
Wulfey wrote: Sorry guys. I was wrong. The warhammer community team has come out and clarified the RAW on the 'no deep strike' nerf. I asked:
Say I start my Bloodangels jumppack captain on the board in my deployment zone. Can I use Upon Wings Of Fire in my first turn to move the captain 9" from an enemy model and OUTSIDE of my deployment zone?
So yes, you can UWOF a captain that started on the board and then 3d6 charge. Smash captains now, smash captains forever.
I agree with this, and will be pushing for this locally, but also realize that the majority of us have, for some stupid reason, adopted the mentality of "unless GW puts it in an official FAQ, we must play it by the most-rules-lawyery way possible" even when someone at GW tells us not to...even if it is akin to stepping on a rake over and over again...
I'm interested in hearing what Frontline gaming has to say about this moving forward. They're playtesters and have GWs ear
This is official. It overrules ITC/Reece. Not sure if the link will work but I got an on the nose answer from warhammer community.
Cephalobeard wrote: I doesn't really "overrule" them, they can decide to run the ITC however they want. If the TO agrees with them, them's the ropes.
Their whole existence is modifying rules, this would not be an exception.
The consensus in my group of ITC friends is that Reece made a deal with GW. ITC no longer provides a FAQ that overrules GW rules anymore. ITC provides a tournament mission set. The days of the ITC FAQ overruling 7th edition nonsense are over. There is no ITC FAQ anymore that executes above 8th edition GWFAQS. That line from GW that I linked to is the law of the land. If it starts on the board, then it doesn't get cokbloked by the deep strike nerf.
That's fine, but it's just opinion versus opinion.
Im just saying that, widely, if they decide to go "lol no" then it doesn't matter, because that's exactly what every lazy TO across the US is going to default to.
Cephalobeard wrote: I doesn't really "overrule" them, they can decide to run the ITC however they want. If the TO agrees with them, them's the ropes.
Their whole existence is modifying rules, this would not be an exception.
The consensus in my group of ITC friends is that Reece made a deal with GW. ITC no longer provides a FAQ that overrules GW rules anymore. ITC provides a tournament mission set. The days of the ITC FAQ overruling 7th edition nonsense are over. There is no ITC FAQ anymore that executes above 8th edition GWFAQS. That line from GW that I linked to is the law of the land. If it starts on the board, then it doesn't get cokbloked by the deep strike nerf.
Except for the part where ITC does not supply GW with a tournament mission set...
I'm having really hard time while practising on my two tourneys in may. I just played a test game against my own death guard list at 1k points and it was so brutal. Even with second fight strat I couldn't bring down a foetid bloat-drone with my artisan of war captain or my charging 6man SG with DoA couldn't compete against a Nurgle DP with suppurating plate. Also my devastators were killed in a single turn with (use of re-roll) with the PBC.
Do you think it's just DG or is my list totally wrongly build?
Spoiler:
Capt Slam
Lieutenant
Mephy
5x scouts
5x scouts
5x tacs, plasma, combi-plasma
Razorback, storm bolter, twin assault cannon
6x SG, encarmine swords, angelus boltguns
5x devastators, 3x missile launcher
Missions in the tourney are: front-line warfare (which I test played), scortch earth, dominate and destroy.
DG are a tough match-up and no mistake. Their toughness kinda mitigates Red Thirst and we don't have the numbers to try and take them on in a battle of attrition. I don't have an easy answer, you build looks OK although a bit light on numbers.
Mephiston is too expensive for 1k. Basic JP librarian is my go to at 1k. Artisan hammer captain should kill the DP. On average without fighting twice unless you’re not using red rampage. I’ve had him bounce off a DP before but I’ve also had him tear through typhus and 3 Deathshroud. The dice are fickle.
Well, I feel like I always roll super poorly against DG. I actually had the red rampage on giving a single sdditional attack when I used the second attack. I rolled five twos on to hit rolls in the first volley of attacks..
Mephy made the only confirmed kill for me in the whole game. I had him in the list as another anti-armour option, becsuse a single dev squad didn't feel enough.
I feel like I need a totally new angle atleast against DG. I just don't want to lose the BA feel from it.
Fyi:
DG list was:
Spoiler:
DP of Nurgle, wings, dual talons, suppurating plate, arch-contaminator
Chaos lod, plasma pistol, power sword
Xirax wrote: Well, I feel like I always roll super poorly against DG. I actually had the red rampage on giving a single sdditional attack when I used the second attack. I rolled five twos on to hit rolls in the first volley of attacks..
Mephy made the only confirmed kill for me in the whole game. I had him in the list as another anti-armour option, becsuse a single dev squad didn't feel enough.
I feel like I need a totally new angle atleast against DG. I just don't want to lose the BA feel from it.
Fyi:
DG list was:
Spoiler:
DP of Nurgle, wings, dual talons, suppurating plate, arch-contaminator
Chaos lod, plasma pistol, power sword
I face a 1500 point list similar to that weekly. That was almost identical to what he played regularly at 1k. My biggest learning curve was patience. Yes, Blood Angels want to smash face, but making slow-as-molasses DG come to you will make you feel like I imagine AM gunline players feel. Missile launchers are the most efficient weapon we have against drones, Capt Smash will usually lay some hurt on the DP. PBC without entropy cannons means you can effectively ignore that Daemon box, unless you feel like committing DOA captain smash to its demise; angel’s wing mitigates any overwatch in subsequent turns, but you don’t need to worry on the first charge; you’re too far for flamers and too close for mortar. All he can shoot is the stubber; big deal. Arch Contaminator is a great warlord trait to face; the 4+++ and -1D ones are far more obnoxious. The -1D one effectively ruins Sanguinary Guard against him.
Meph is well worth the additional 25 pts. If the dice gods arent in your favor the best list will fail.
He’s 25 more points than a JP Librarian. He doesn’t had a JP; he’s a 49 point upgrade to what he’s comparable to. You get a lot for those 49 points, but 1k isn’t s high ceiling. A JP Librarian can drop in with SG or DC to buff them; Meph can wave at them from across the table and wish them luck. Our Librarians aren’t great; if I get a cast of Unleash Rage off I’m doing well, and that’s a 6+. Mephiston is like a Librarian Dread; a nice bonus if it works. If your plan requires both Wings and Quickening to work properly, you’re generally screwed. I’m firmly of the opinion that Quickening’s warp charge is too high for what it gives you.
PBC was part of a tight pack coming towards your lines. Those drones reach a 31-41" threat range after two turns of movement. They will have targets on the second turn. 4x4 table is small even that I deployed my devs in the opposite corner of the map, but dice were on DG side to shoot my devs T1 with stubber and mortar, DP rerolls. Rerolling all wounds on PBC and drones is also nasty to face when 3-4 units benefit from it.
I'll have a new test game tonight, wondering if I should try that jump libby.. I only have two turns to stop the drones, PBC, DP rapetrain coming towards my lines. When I drop the Mephy I have only devs, Slam and T2 SG unless I uwof to throw them at. I'll sacrifice seven virgins to the dice Gods if it'll help..
I think dreadnoughts are a good counter against bloat drones with plaguespitters. The drone only has S6 with its spitters, and in CC, which means it wounds dreads on 5s. The best dread we currently have is the contemptor. Dreads use chapter tactics, vehicles dont. This doesnt really help us, because at S14 they already wound everything that isnt T8 on 2+. But running them as RG or IH will give you chapter tactics, -1 to hit, or 6+ FNP. You can use an auxiliary detachment for -1 CP, if you think its worth it. I made a list with a contemptor at 1k.
I'll proxy a fragioso as contemptor, but the list is supposed to be a tourney list against atleast necrons and ad mech, which I know I will definitely face along with DG.
Thanks guys for tips, I'll let you know how it fared.
Ok, after two more test games I finally beat that Death guard list of mine.
For the third game I altered the list even more to get more durability.
This was the winning list, I'll play one more game tonight, against myself though, but test game anyways.. To see if it really has potential.
List tailoring such way is a bit stupid because I have no idea how it fairs against other lists.
List and quick
Spoiler:
998p Batallion
Captain Slam, hammer, inferno pistol and artisan of war Librarian with Angel's wing, quickening and unleash rage
5x intercessors, power sword and aux grenade 5x scouts, bolters, heavy bolter 5x scouts, bolters
Contemptor dreadnought with kheres pattern assault cannon 6x sanguinary guard, encarmine swords and angelus boltguns
5x hellblasters, plasma incinerators
Scouts hold my own corners to avoid getting flamed straight away, Contemptor took good amount of damage from enemy plasma, but managed to fight once against both bloat-drones and score few wounds, shooting was mediocre. Captain used UWOF on third turn to flank and destroyed a wounded PBC. Intercessors sustained two volleys of plaguespitter flame in a ruins, much more durable than regulars, three intercessors killed four plague marines on the charge, which was propaply overperforming. Hellblasters on T2 overcharged it's rapid firing plasma with buffs from the captain and dropped a single-bloat drone to 2 wounds. Lib dropped with SG and they killed the DP and took some wounds of the PBC. Unleash rage, quickening and the relic JP made the charge on the DP and PBC to party along with the SG this time.
So it was a sit and wait for me. For other opponents I might struggle on getting to objectives late game if my SG or jump HQ's are dead.. though I could always uwof them away on turns 4-5, althought this game ended after BA turn 4. This was the first time I used this much primaris and have to say in a 1k game the 2 wounds are a nice buff.
FYI, against such a list with no DS, I had no experience with the new FAQDS, because I didn't want to DS them on T1 anyway.
EDIT:
So I had one more test game, BA went first and mission was scorched earth.. BA lost 22 to 27 on turn 5. Where BA had a librarian in the DG backfield where it uwof'd on T5 to try to clear some poxwalkers to deny scoring and for linebreaker and a single hellblaster hiding on one of the objectives. DG had two squads of poxwalkers and the PM squad along with the chaos lord.
Slam multi-charged the DP and a foetid bloat-drone while killing the DP on the in death does duty end strat.. Contemptor dread's shooting is still mediocre atleast against T7 bloat-drones. Hellblasters scream for lieutenant atleast when shooting T7/T8.
Lessons learned:
- auto-explode stratagem is really mean when you have no means to stop those mortal wounds. - SG with a lib giving unleash rage is worthwhile buff.. lib himself is quite useless in melee. overwatch denial and unleash rage helped the SG do the work though.. Those pesky fething bloat-drones just kept flying away from combat and torching my ass though. - Maybe I should drop the librarian and point tweak to get a lieutenant and a SG ancient with angel's wings.. hmm.. and make the SG ancient my warlord also. - Scouts are a bit meh against non-DS army, although only good thing they did was the hellfire shell strat on a closing drone, but that CP could have been spent to give red rampage on my HQ's..
Still, don't really know what to take from all this regarding the tourney up ahead..
EDIT:
In the spoiler, there's a quick summary on one more test game..
If you guys know how DG is like, what things I need to focus on when opposing a necron silver tide, just focus units one at a time and try to DS those buffing characters T2 and forward?
Scout bikes are nice; very good at dakka. Normal bikes are great if you want to run a vanilla outrider detachment; Salamander bikes with meltas really leverage their rerolls nicely and can get into melta range in short order.
If you want plasma you’re better off with 2 plasma guns and a plasma pistol in a BA assault squad, or Inceptors.
gkos wrote: Has anyone much experience with scout bikes, or bikes in general? I'm really liking them at the moment fast, tough and put out plenty of shots
I have yet to get to use their mortal wounds stratagem, but it looks fun.
Unsure if anyone else noticed this and posted it here, but there's been clarification from GW on units jumping around the board if they were deployed on the board turn 1.
Voidwraith wrote: Unsure if anyone else noticed this and posted it here, but there's been clarification from GW on units jumping around the board if they were deployed on the board turn 1.
Well, I think I finally decided to make Captain Slamguinius. I am going to use the Blood Angels Chaplain as the base. Replace the crozius with a Thunder Hammer and the Inferno Pistol with a Storm Shield. Should work quite nicely. I haven't decided if I am going to paint him black or red. Probably red and paint the saltires black(I will almost always run him with Death Visions of Sanguinius, but I want to differentiate him from a Chaplain). Paint the wings white instead of red. In terms of how he is laid out, what is the best way? Obviously Angel's Wing. Warlord Trait seems to be between Artisan of War and and Gift of Foresight. Artisan makes him hit like a bus, but Foresight makes him even more survivable. Which is the better option?
Maybe I should do half red and half gold, with dark red muscle...
I usually go for gift of foresight in combination with death visions of sanguinius to give him 5+++. Its great to do 4 damage, but if you fail to charge, fail to hit, fail to wound, the enemy makes its saves, its good to be tougher and live one more turn.
p5freak wrote: I usually go for gift of foresight in combination with death visions of sanguinius to give him 5+++. Its great to do 4 damage, but if you fail to charge, fail to hit, fail to wound, the enemy makes its saves, its good to be tougher and live one more turn.
That is kind of what I am thinking. 5+++ with a reroll on an already fairly survivable platform. And really, he is already going to wreck most things anyway dealing three wounds a pop.
Now, I am wondering if, with the 5+++ from Gift of Foresight, does he really need that 3++ on top of his existing 4++? Would a special pistol be worth it on him? Maybe a Combi weapon? I get that his job is to smash face and never die, but could adding more shooting be worth it? He does still have grenades and a bolt pistol, I guess.
Now, I am wondering if, with the 5+++ from Gift of Foresight, does he really need that 3++ on top of his existing 4++? Would a special pistol be worth it on him? Maybe a Combi weapon? I get that his job is to smash face and never die, but could adding more shooting be worth it? He does still have grenades and a bolt pistol, I guess.
Plenty of gear options, all with pros and cons, you have to decide yourself. My captn slammy usually is only CC and maximum toughness.
p5freak wrote: I usually go for gift of foresight in combination with death visions of sanguinius to give him 5+++. Its great to do 4 damage, but if you fail to charge, fail to hit, fail to wound, the enemy makes its saves, its good to be tougher and live one more turn.
That is kind of what I am thinking. 5+++ with a reroll on an already fairly survivable platform. And really, he is already going to wreck most things anyway dealing three wounds a pop.
Now, I am wondering if, with the 5+++ from Gift of Foresight, does he really need that 3++ on top of his existing 4++? Would a special pistol be worth it on him? Maybe a Combi weapon? I get that his job is to smash face and never die, but could adding more shooting be worth it? He does still have grenades and a bolt pistol, I guess.
The captain is such a massive threat that the enemy HAS to deal with him asap. Forcing him to dedicate more and more firepower to do it is worth it. Hence the increased move to Gift of Foresight aswell.
the SS reduces failed saves by 33%. its pretty big.
p5freak wrote: I usually go for gift of foresight in combination with death visions of sanguinius to give him 5+++. Its great to do 4 damage, but if you fail to charge, fail to hit, fail to wound, the enemy makes its saves, its good to be tougher and live one more turn.
That is kind of what I am thinking. 5+++ with a reroll on an already fairly survivable platform. And really, he is already going to wreck most things anyway dealing three wounds a pop.
Now, I am wondering if, with the 5+++ from Gift of Foresight, does he really need that 3++ on top of his existing 4++? Would a special pistol be worth it on him? Maybe a Combi weapon? I get that his job is to smash face and never die, but could adding more shooting be worth it? He does still have grenades and a bolt pistol, I guess.
The captain is such a massive threat that the enemy HAS to deal with him asap. Forcing him to dedicate more and more firepower to do it is worth it. Hence the increased move to Gift of Foresight aswell.
the SS reduces failed saves by 33%. its pretty big.
That is certainly true. Making him a good Distraction Carnifex on top of big threat is good. I am going to go Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer.
Blimey, I just got my backside handed to me on a platter by Necrons, how do you guys kill a doomsday ark?
Quantum Shielding negated my heavy firepower, Triarch Stalkers one shotted my libby dread and a squad of destroyers took my pred down to one wound in one round of firing.
gkos wrote: Blimey, I just got my backside handed to me on a platter by Necrons, how do you guys kill a doomsday ark?
Quantum Shielding negated my heavy firepower, Triarch Stalkers one shotted my libby dread and a squad of destroyers took my pred down to one wound in one round of firing.
Haven't faces one yet, but my new list has 2 Stalkers, which should be great against the quantum shielding (six 2 damage shots per stalker) and 3 predators for killshot potential. 2 of the predators will be predator autocannon with heavy bolter sponsons, which, again, is a bunch of shots that will do 2 damage (with killshot).
I figure this configuration will be good against most armies, as the FLY keyword is pretty common.
Also going Flesh Tearers for this list, so Gabriel Seth and a Lieutenant will be providing rerolls.
yes, I need to look at stalkers, Necrons have so many fly models with big guns it's depressing.
And lets not mention living metal.. I had a captain and LT but to be honest, after his first turn I had little to shoot back with. A pred on it's lowest tier is not much of a threat to anyone.. plus, when it blew up it took wounds of my HQ.
all in all, not a good day at the office for BA
Automatically Appended Next Post: So come on, what are our serious combinations to include in a 2k battle against Necron?
This thread has been an argument about DS for a while, lets talk tactics about taking out Necrons without the Beta rules.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Warlord Trait seems to be between Artisan of War and and Gift of Foresight. Artisan makes him hit like a bus, but Foresight makes him even more survivable. Which is the better option?
It depends on who you are facing. Against a list with CC heavy hitters or bit monsters, Artisan of War works out better as the best defense Captain Smash can get is to make sure he kills whatever he is charging ASAP. Against shootier armies where you are confident of the kill, the problem is surviving the retaliatory shooting and this is where GoF comes in handy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gkos wrote: Blimey, I just got my backside handed to me on a platter by Necrons, how do you guys kill a doomsday ark?
Quantum Shielding negated my heavy firepower, Triarch Stalkers one shotted my libby dread and a squad of destroyers took my pred down to one wound in one round of firing.
Overcharged plasma is probably the most effective answer to quantum shielding. Hellblasters or Inceptors probably have the best chance here. Alternatively just charge it with Death Company and drown it with weight of dice. Even with 14 wounds, it is only T6 with a 4+ save. Death Company will chew through it pretty quickly. Plus if it withdraws from combat, it will have to fire on its weaker profile since it moved.
Your Libby Dread is a Character, make full use of screening to protect it from shooting. Destroyers are nasty, there is no denying it. They don't have anything like quantum shielding though so actually make a pretty decent target for your anti-tank shooting or for Captain Smash.
Covenant wrote: Why not choose the WL-trait from the rulebook for one additional attack after a Charge?
7 attacks (4+1+d3(2) doing 4 damage is 15 wounds against a vehicle (T7 3+)
8 attacks doing 3 damage is 13 wounds.
Against T6 4++ Artisan does 9 wounds. Extra attack does 7.8
If your going for a suicide run +1D is better then an extra attack.
Unless your charging something with 3 wounds or less. But thats not the captains main target.
Prob better against Necrons tho but a 5++ re-roll 1's still sounds better there then 1 more attack.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Warlord Trait seems to be between Artisan of War and and Gift of Foresight. Artisan makes him hit like a bus, but Foresight makes him even more survivable. Which is the better option?
It depends on who you are facing. Against a list with CC heavy hitters or bit monsters, Artisan of War works out better as the best defense Captain Smash can get is to make sure he kills whatever he is charging ASAP. Against shootier armies where you are confident of the kill, the problem is surviving the retaliatory shooting and this is where GoF comes in handy.
The good thing is that Warlord traits are decided at the start of the battle. So it isn't adjusting my list whatsoever. So I can change him up depending on what he is crashing into. I agree, GoF is much better for shooty armies. Artisan would be better for stuff with a lot of wounds. Smashing a Knight to pieces will be great!
gkos wrote: Blimey, I just got my backside handed to me on a platter by Necrons, how do you guys kill a doomsday ark?
Anything that has S7+ and damage 1-3. Captn slammy with TH, DC with TH/fists, SG with fists, stalkers with icarus stormcannons, dreads with autocannons, overcharged plasma, predators with predator autocannon, etc.
Covenant wrote: Why not choose the WL-trait from the rulebook for one additional attack after a Charge?
7 attacks (4+1+d3(2) doing 4 damage is 15 wounds against a vehicle (T7 3+)
8 attacks doing 3 damage is 13 wounds.
Against T6 4++ Artisan does 9 wounds. Extra attack does 7.8
If your going for a suicide run +1D is better then an extra attack.
Unless your charging something with 3 wounds or less. But thats not the captains main target.
Prob better against Necrons tho but a 5++ re-roll 1's still sounds better there then 1 more attack.
Also Artisan works on every round of combat whereas the +1A trait only applies on the turn you charge.
I am thinking of adding a Relic Sicaran Battle Tank to my army. Yay or nay? One neat thing about it is it can benefit from Lucifer Pattern Engines and still fire its main weapon, so it becomes quite zippy. On the subject of sponsors, lascannons or heavy bolters? I am a bit lacking in anti-tank, so the lascannons will help some, I guess.
I tried out a 2x slamcaptain + 3x5 scout battalion as a helper to my admech force. Just marking it down here that slam captains are the best. BLANGELS are an awesome splash force that provides an amazing way to turn CP into damage. I usually gave angel's wing to cap1 and the no -1 to hit hammer to cap2.
Depending on the opponent I could either go 5+++ WLT on a cap or take the 4 damage on the no -1 to hit hammer cap. These guys were super heroes (one of them took 7 CP and killed a wraithknight and an eldar flyer in a single charge). Their only fault is lack of 2+ armor.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am thinking of adding a Relic Sicaran Battle Tank to my army. Yay or nay? One neat thing about it is it can benefit from Lucifer Pattern Engines and still fire its main weapon, so it becomes quite zippy. On the subject of sponsors, lascannons or heavy bolters? I am a bit lacking in anti-tank, so the lascannons will help some, I guess.
Moving 20" and still being able to fire (at -1) is nice. If you shoot a FLY unit you ignore that -1. Not only that -1, every modifier there is Move 20" and shoot that eldar flyer which already has -2 to hit, it would be -3 but not with the accelerator autocannon
Wulfey wrote: I tried out a 2x slamcaptain + 3x5 scout battalion as a helper to my admech force. Just marking it down here that slam captains are the best. BLANGELS are an awesome splash force that provides an amazing way to turn CP into damage. I usually gave angel's wing to cap1 and the no -1 to hit hammer to cap2.
Depending on the opponent I could either go 5+++ WLT on a cap or take the 4 damage on the no -1 to hit hammer cap. These guys were super heroes (one of them took 7 CP and killed a wraithknight and an eldar flyer in a single charge). Their only fault is lack of 2+ armor.
Let me guess.
Battlescribe?
Artisan of War includes a little important bit at the end.
'This cannot apply to relic weapons'
Wulfey wrote: I tried out a 2x slamcaptain + 3x5 scout battalion as a helper to my admech force. Just marking it down here that slam captains are the best. BLANGELS are an awesome splash force that provides an amazing way to turn CP into damage. I usually gave angel's wing to cap1 and the no -1 to hit hammer to cap2.
Depending on the opponent I could either go 5+++ WLT on a cap or take the 4 damage on the no -1 to hit hammer cap. These guys were super heroes (one of them took 7 CP and killed a wraithknight and an eldar flyer in a single charge). Their only fault is lack of 2+ armor.
Let me guess. Battlescribe?
Artisan of War includes a little important bit at the end. 'This cannot apply to relic weapons'
It was my first time with the codex and I would have aced that wraithknight even without the 4 damage since I used HONOR THE CHAPTER. That makes the +1 dam WLT not as good . EDIT: actually, since I did 18 damage to the WK on the first swing ... I don't even think I used the 4 dam.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am thinking of adding a Relic Sicaran Battle Tank to my army. Yay or nay? One neat thing about it is it can benefit from Lucifer Pattern Engines and still fire its main weapon, so it becomes quite zippy. On the subject of sponsors, lascannons or heavy bolters? I am a bit lacking in anti-tank, so the lascannons will help some, I guess.
Moving 20" and still being able to fire (at -1) is nice. If you shoot a FLY unit you ignore that -1. Not only that -1, every modifier there is Move 20" and shoot that eldar flyer which already has -2 to hit, it would be -3 but not with the accelerator autocannon
Holy crap, you're right about the Accelerator Cannon. No penalties to units with the Fly keyword. Period. End of story. That is awesome! Too bad I can only take one of them at a time. I kinda want to get a second one and take out my Repulsor tank. That is a spicy tank, for sure!
My Captain Slamguinius shaped Missile earned his points back at a local fun tournament at my FLGS yesterday. He killed most of a Leviathan Dreadnought (Lemartes finished off the Leviathan) game 1, then he single handedly killed a Raider and 8 out of 9 two wound dark eldar bikers (had to burn the fight twice stratagem to get the number of attacks needed in both the first and second game) and on my third match, also against dark eldar, he dropped one of their flying bomber craft before it ever had a chance to move.
I seized the initiative on my first and third game. Wound up not placing in the very top, but had fun all the same and got to terrify people with my Hammer Welding home-boy.
It's becoming more and more clear that a hammer jump captain is our only truly efficient tool. Pretty disappointing, really. I will say you really brave to charge into a leviathan.
Martel732 wrote: It's becoming more and more clear that a hammer jump captain is our only truly efficient tool. Pretty disappointing, really. I will say you really brave to charge into a leviathan.
If smash dies, then for 2CP he finishes the job with ONLY IN DEATH DOES DUTY END. Smash is 129 points and 5CP that you traded to knock out a 350 point core combat model from your opponents army. That he trades so well is why I bring two now, maybe even start bringing more in higher CP lists.
Razerous wrote: What's the difference between a Smash captain and a Lieutenant with a jump pack and thunder hammer?
The ability to take a Storm Shield. Which is what makes CPT Slam so potent. He has such strong defenses and hits like a bus.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Okay. That makes me want to maybe get into resin.
I know, right? The damn tank cruises around the board and kills anything with the Fly Keyword. DE Venoms? No more problem. It sucks we can only run one Relic though. I would run two of these bad boys without a second thought.
Razerous wrote: What's the difference between a Smash captain and a Lieutenant with a jump pack and thunder hammer?
The ability to take a Storm Shield. Which is what makes CPT Slam so potent. He has such strong defenses and hits like a bus.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Okay. That makes me want to maybe get into resin.
I know, right? The damn tank cruises around the board and kills anything with the Fly Keyword. DE Venoms? No more problem. It sucks we can only run one Relic though. I would run two of these bad boys without a second thought.
Agreed about the Sicaran... I'm so happy it's both so good and such a decent model!
Re: Smash captain, agreed. But both.. profit.
More of a good thing, granted one is less good than t'other but threat saturation is real!
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am thinking of adding a Relic Sicaran Battle Tank to my army. Yay or nay? One neat thing about it is it can benefit from Lucifer Pattern Engines and still fire its main weapon, so it becomes quite zippy. On the subject of sponsors, lascannons or heavy bolters? I am a bit lacking in anti-tank, so the lascannons will help some, I guess.
I would be tempted to go Lascannons personally. I find we have plenty of other units that are better at clearing chaff but a bit more anti-tank rarely goes amiss. The accelerator auto-cannon is fantastic but you will be glad of the lascannons if you run up against T8 targets.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am thinking of adding a Relic Sicaran Battle Tank to my army. Yay or nay? One neat thing about it is it can benefit from Lucifer Pattern Engines and still fire its main weapon, so it becomes quite zippy. On the subject of sponsors, lascannons or heavy bolters? I am a bit lacking in anti-tank, so the lascannons will help some, I guess.
I would be tempted to go Lascannons personally. I find we have plenty of other units that are better at clearing chaff but a bit more anti-tank rarely goes amiss. The accelerator auto-cannon is fantastic but you will be glad of the lascannons if you run up against T8 targets.
That is what I was thinking too. Sure, if I zip it around, I won't be able to shoot them, but when it is positioned well, the Lascannons will be a godsend.
Martel732 wrote:It's becoming more and more clear that a hammer jump captain is our only truly efficient tool. Pretty disappointing, really. I will say you really brave to charge into a leviathan.
A leviathan dread is rather weak in CC, when he only has ranged weapons. Only 2 attacks at S8, no AP and only 1 damage. Charge him more than 8" away to avoid his flamers, no problem for slammy with the 3D6 charge.
casvalremdeikun wrote:I know, right? The damn tank cruises around the board and kills anything with the Fly Keyword. DE Venoms? No more problem. It sucks we can only run one Relic though. I would run two of these bad boys without a second thought.
You can run more than one relic unit. For two relic units you need at least two non-relic units. Two sicaran and two two model units of company vets, to keep it cheap, in a vanguard detachment is fine.
Relic: If your army is Battle-forged, no Detachment can contain more Relic units than it does non-Relic units of the same Battlefield Role.
casvalremdeikun wrote:I know, right? The damn tank cruises around the board and kills anything with the Fly Keyword. DE Venoms? No more problem. It sucks we can only run one Relic though. I would run two of these bad boys without a second thought.
You can run more than one relic unit. For two relic units you need at least two non-relic units. Two sicaran and two two model units of company vets, to keep it cheap, in a vanguard detachment is fine.
Relic: If your army is Battle-forged, no Detachment can contain more Relic units than it does non-Relic units of the same Battlefield Role.
Awesome! I have more than two non-relic Elites in my Vanguard Detachment. That will give me room for another Sicaran. Though for points, I would have to take out my Repulsor, which is my combo Horde/Vehicle Hunter. Still, I should be able to make it work. Looks like I will be making another Forgeworld order at some point.
I've been experimenting on my up coming tourneys and trying to get multi-purpose multi-wound list.
In my current 1k list there's mr. Slam with the shield, but also the lieutenant has a thunder hammer and jump pack. After 1-2 rounds of heavy support buffing I can either counter-attack backfield threats or just uwof away. Using a DC thunder hammer model as the lieutenant it makes a great looking distraction carnifex as well. I almost forlon furied my capt with angel's wings and uwof+doa my lieutenant T1 last practice game, it's much easier to hide a single model in a terrain after forlon's fury than a blob of DC.
Anyone else experimented dual/triple DVoS in your game?
Secondly do you think that artisan of war is a complete waste on a SG ancient? Heroic bearing a better WT?
Xirax wrote: Secondly do you think that artisan of war is a complete waste on a SG ancient? Heroic bearing a better WT?
The Sanguinary Ancient is primarily a buff character rather than a damage dealer so I feel another aura ability would synergise better than trying to boost his modest damage output.
A lot of events allow you to pick warlord trait at the start of the game, so you can see if they have any leadership shenanigans that could realistically make some SG run or psychic powers to deny.
I was thinking up a Blood angel list at work with the new changes to brigade CP and I was wondering if I could get some constructive criticism. I'm trying to maximize a sole blood angels list for kind of a TAC list
Brigade detachment
HQ Lemartes 129 Librarian 96 Captain (w/ jump pack TH )(Warlord)(death visions of sanguinius -1cp) 129 Elites Sanguinary ancient (standard of sacrifice -1cp) 99 x8 Sanguinory guard(swords, bolters) 280 x10 DC (jump packs, x1 powermaul, x1 hand flamer x9 bolt-pistols, x9 chainswords) 205 Troops x5 scout squad 55 x5 scout squad 55 x5 scout squad 55 x5 Tactical Squad 65 x5 Tactical Squad 65 x5 Tactical Squad 65 x1 razorback-twin assault cannon 116 x1 razorback-twin assault cannon 116 Elites Heavy Support x5 Dev squad+ cherub (x 3 lascannon) 145 x5 Dev squad+ cherub (x 2 lascannon x 1 Heavy Bolter) 130 x5 Dev squad+ cherub (x 2 lascannon x 1 Heavy Bolter) 130
2000 pts
(3 base command points +12 command points from brigade detachment)=15CP-1CP(Death Visions of Sanguinius)-1cp(Armoury of Baal)=13CP
let me know if I hecked up anywhere in the crafting or if there are better suggestions
I'm not too sure of how to edit posts XD so be gentle with me Battle Brothers. I'm just a wee neophyte.
5man Tactical squad, bolters, heavy bolter, chainsword on Sgt 75
5man Tactical squad, bolters, heavy bolter, chainsword on Sgt 75
5man Tactical squad, bolters, heavy bolter, chainsword on Sgt 75
Predator w/ autocannon 142
Predator w/ autocannon 142
x5 Dev squad+ cherub (x 2 lascannon x1 heavy bolter) 130
Vanguard
Lemartes 129
10man Death company + jump packs + 10x bolt pistols, 10x chainsword 200
10man Sanguinary guard + Angelus boltguns & encarmine swords 350
Sanguinary ancient + angelus boltgun & power fist + Relic Banner+death mask 97
2000 pts total. 11 CP to start with, 9 after I buy the Relic Banner and the Black Rage for Slamguinius.
If you replace the dev squad with a third pred you can use killshot. If you add a ML you can use flakk missile. Pred with autocannon is 130. Librarian with JP is 120. The AG ancient is 101. Sang priest is 71. Always use boltguns on DC. Twice the shots of a boltpistol at 12", 24" range, and they are free. If you make the SG ancient your warlord SG can reroll all failed hit rolls. Two battalions are 13 CP.
Hadrian Solus wrote: I was thinking up a Blood angel list at work with the new changes to brigade CP and I was wondering if I could get some constructive criticism. I'm trying to maximize a sole blood angels list for kind of a TAC list
Brigade detachment
HQ Lemartes 129
Librarian 96
Captain (w/ jump pack TH )(Warlord)(death visions of sanguinius -1cp) 129
Elites
Sanguinary ancient (standard of sacrifice -1cp) 99
x8 Sanguinory guard(swords, bolters) 280
x10 DC (jump packs, x1 powermaul, x1 hand flamer x9 bolt-pistols, x9 chainswords) 205
Troops
x5 scout squad 55
x5 scout squad 55
x5 scout squad 55
x5 Tactical Squad 65
x5 Tactical Squad 65
x5 Tactical Squad 65
x1 razorback-twin assault cannon 116
x1 razorback-twin assault cannon 116
Elites
Heavy Support
x5 Dev squad+ cherub (x 3 lascannon) 145
x5 Dev squad+ cherub (x 2 lascannon x 1 Heavy Bolter) 130
x5 Dev squad+ cherub (x 2 lascannon x 1 Heavy Bolter) 130
2000 pts
(3 base command points +12 command points from brigade detachment)=15CP-1CP(Death Visions of Sanguinius)-1cp(Armoury of Baal)=13CP
let me know if I hecked up anywhere in the crafting or if there are better suggestions
I'm not too sure of how to edit posts XD so be gentle with me Battle Brothers. I'm just a wee neophyte.
Looks like you have missed out your 3 Fast Attack options. Possibly you could drop the Razorbacks and fit in some FA units that fulfil the same role such as Bolter Inceptors. Squeezing BAs into a Brigade at 2000 points is tricky (but not impossible).
Actually, units of single heavy bolter attack bikes and 5 man reiver squads make a brigade pretty easy to build. If you don't like reivers, you can use vets with stormbolters, too.
Not sure if it has been covered before, but if I were to run a minimal, bang-for-buck detachment of Blood Angels to help an Imperium army, what would its composition be?
Let's say 2 HQs, 3x5 Scouts, and maybe one unit of Death Company or Sanguinary Guard.
Slamguinius is a given. But who should Slamguinius's partner be? The Sanguinor, Lemartes, Mephiston, a Chaplain, or a Librarian? Because The Sanguinor is expensive as hell (170 pts), and Mephiston lacks a jump pack. Really, Lemartes with the Death Vision stratagem seems the cheapest option (129 pts, 1 CP).
And would one unit of Death Company or Sanguinary Guard be helpful or detrimental to the notion of such a minimal detachment? If I were to run just the HQs and the Scouts, how would you think that would perform?
Wulfey wrote: If you have 14+ CP, I like second captain. I challenge you to find 129 points that can deal that much damage in the whole of the IMPERIUM.
Lemartes is also 129 points. And since you're giving your Captain the Death Visions stratagem anyway, he gets that reroll failed charges for virtually guaranteed 9" charges. Lemartes himself is no slouch, with 6 S6 AP-2 D3 attacks, reroll failed fighting hits aura (slightly better than the Captain's reroll failed 1s hits), and only 1 less wound than the Captain. Pretty solid for killing MEQs, whereas the Captain smashes vehicles like no other.
This is just one argument though. The Sanguinor is also pretty cool. Gives your Captain yet another attack, has a great leadership debuff aura, and he can fall back and charge.
Don't discount Mephiston. You always take Wings so he has a psuedo jump-pack. Can do turn 1 charges (tho it requires also getting Quickening off which is 50/50) and gives you 2 deny rolls.
Ordana wrote: Don't discount Mephiston. You always take Wings so he has a psuedo jump-pack. Can do turn 1 charges (tho it requires also getting Quickening off which is 50/50) and gives you 2 deny rolls.
Right. He is really strong, and helpful for armies with limited psyker coverage. Downsides are that he doesn't do much to buff your Captain (since he will mostly be buffing himself), costs 16 more points, cannot deep strike, and has to rely on a pseudo Jump Pack that has a 1/18 chance of blowing up in your face, not to mention a 1/6 chance of failing in general; Quickening fails 5/12 times. =\
Hadrian Solus wrote: I was thinking up a Blood angel list at work with the new changes to brigade CP and I was wondering if I could get some constructive criticism. I'm trying to maximize a sole blood angels list for kind of a TAC list
Brigade detachment
HQ Lemartes 129
Librarian 96
Captain (w/ jump pack TH )(Warlord)(death visions of sanguinius -1cp) 129
Elites
Sanguinary ancient (standard of sacrifice -1cp) 99
x8 Sanguinory guard(swords, bolters) 280
x10 DC (jump packs, x1 powermaul, x1 hand flamer x9 bolt-pistols, x9 chainswords) 205
Troops
x5 scout squad 55
x5 scout squad 55
x5 scout squad 55
x5 Tactical Squad 65
x5 Tactical Squad 65
x5 Tactical Squad 65
x1 razorback-twin assault cannon 116
x1 razorback-twin assault cannon 116
Elites
Heavy Support
x5 Dev squad+ cherub (x 3 lascannon) 145
x5 Dev squad+ cherub (x 2 lascannon x 1 Heavy Bolter) 130
x5 Dev squad+ cherub (x 2 lascannon x 1 Heavy Bolter) 130
2000 pts
(3 base command points +12 command points from brigade detachment)=15CP-1CP(Death Visions of Sanguinius)-1cp(Armoury of Baal)=13CP
let me know if I hecked up anywhere in the crafting or if there are better suggestions
I'm not too sure of how to edit posts XD so be gentle with me Battle Brothers. I'm just a wee neophyte.
Looks like you have missed out your 3 Fast Attack options. Possibly you could drop the Razorbacks and fit in some FA units that fulfil the same role such as Bolter Inceptors. Squeezing BAs into a Brigade at 2000 points is tricky (but not impossible).
what would you recommend point to get that fast attack requirement. I was thinking of replacing the devs with predators. if I'm not wrong inceptors are 45pts per model. you're absolutely right that it's super hard to get a brigade detachment for BA with only 2000 pts to work with XD
jcd386 wrote: I think captain slam, Lemartes, scouts, and 1 unit of DC is the most obvious choice.
Well then... to wade into a more controversial topic, what is the ideal setup for the units?
Seems like Combat Knives or Bolters plus Bolt Pistols for the Scouts. I personally prefer Combat Knives because I would only ever use them as an assault screen and not as as objective campers.
But Death Company...? Chainswords and Bolters for the versatility? Thunder Hammers? Power Fists and Hand Flamers? Chainswords and Hand Flamers?
The 2 units that have been real standouts for me have been:
5 packs of CCW scouts w/power sword and stormbolter/combiplas sgt. They do great at chasing tanks across a map, screening, and getting into combat ASAP with the scout rule.
Jump pack librarian, usually with a power sword, but sometimes takes an axe, inferno pistol or combimelta, always takes Wings, unleash Rage if I've got a 15 pack of DC, otherwise Shield can be good, Quickening is solid except for WC7.. The Blood Lance can also do a thing, especially because...
I always take the Relic pack on my Libby for tying up shooting, so positioning is critical. With the 1 CP stratagem to redeploy, plus WoS you can always put him exactly where you want him.
The big downside is he's super squishy, he can sometimes get left out in the open after a big charge, giving him the warlord FNP just means they get Warlord too when they kill him.
(3 base command points +12 command points from brigade detachment)=15CP-1CP(Death Visions of Sanguinius)-1cp(Armoury of Baal)=13CP[/list]
let me know if I hecked up anywhere in the crafting or if there are better suggestions
I'm not too sure of how to edit posts XD so be gentle with me Battle Brothers. I'm just a wee neophyte.
Looks like you have missed out your 3 Fast Attack options. Possibly you could drop the Razorbacks and fit in some FA units that fulfil the same role such as Bolter Inceptors. Squeezing BAs into a Brigade at 2000 points is tricky (but not impossible).
what would you recommend point to get that fast attack requirement. I was thinking of replacing the devs with predators. if I'm not wrong inceptors are 45pts per model. you're absolutely right that it's super hard to get a brigade detachment for BA with only 2000 pts to work with XD
A Brigade only gets you 2 more CPs than a double Battalion. I have found double Battalion works well for BAs. A Brigade needs you to spend too many points on weak units like single attack bikes. I would rather run slightly fewer units but make sure they are good units that can fulfill the role I need.
I have not been impressed with Predators in 8th. Running 3 with the Killshot stratagem is cool but stops as soon as you lose the first tank. Your Dev squads look fine to me, I would leave them as they are. Your Razorbacks carry some very tasty dakka for clearing hordes cheaply and they can carry some squads which is handy.
All you need for dual battalion is an extra HQ. Not quite sure what to drop to get the points for it though but it will be easier to find the points for one more HQ than for 3 Fast attack units.
Quick question. Follow up on my questions about a minimal BA detachment.
It's going to have Slamguinius, Lemartes/Mephiston, 3x5 Scouts.
Is it important to have some Death Company jumpers? If so, what unit size should I be taking? 5? 10? 15? And I see a lot of companies mixing Thunder Hammers in. What is the best ratio? I guess 4:1?
And what do I lose if I don't bring them at all? Because right now, taking the DC looks like too many units for too few Stratagems to capitalize on them.
Slamguinius
Forlorn Fury / Descent of Angels + Red Rampage
Lemartes/Mephiston
Forlorn Fury / Descent of Angels + Vengeance for Sanguinius / Red Rampage
Keep in mind that DC have the potential to wipe out half your opponents army, in one turn. A 15 model DC unit can do 180 CC attacks, plus 30 boltgun shots, in one turn. Rerolling all failed hit and charge rolls with lemartes. You need the sanguinor and unleash rage for that. Thats ~730 pts. and 3-5 CP. Is it worth it ? I dont think so. I found out that ~10 models is a good size. 5 is not enough to do significant damage, and 15 is vulnerable to morale losses. Even with lemartes they only have LD 9. You would need a warlord who automatically passes morale tests, or spend 2 CP to do the same. I usually run a 10 DC model unit with two inferno pistols, two PF and 1 TH. And lemartes of course, he is a must have for DC.
@p5freak
Yeah, yeah. I am aware of Lemartes + The Sanguinor + Librarian + 15 DC combination. It has its weaknesses. Namely, it's very much an all-in strategy, and if you don't make it into CC, you're boned. (But if you do, you really can take out half their army in a single turn.) Anyhow, I am not sure I want to invest that heavily into BA. I am primarily looking to use them for the Scouts and very strong skirmisher HQs.
So let's distill this into two questions:
1) What is the most point efficient two-HQ combination? My current research and Mathhammer suggests it is Slamguinius + Lemartes. Or is it Mephiston?
2) Is a unit of DC or SG necessary for such a detachment to function at all?
Also, a random third question:
3) Why 2 Power Fist + Inferno Pistol and 1 Thunder Hammer?
Suzuteo wrote: @p5freak
Yeah, yeah. I am aware of Lemartes + The Sanguinor + Librarian + 15 DC combination. It has its weaknesses. Namely, it's very much an all-in strategy, and if you don't make it into CC, you're boned. (But if you do, you really can take out half their army in a single turn.) Anyhow, I am not sure I want to invest that heavily into BA. I am primarily looking to use them for the Scouts and very strong skirmisher HQs.
Yes, getting all into CC is not easy. Looks devastating on paper, but not in reality.
So let's distill this into two questions:
1) What is the most point efficient two-HQ combination? My current research and Mathhammer suggests it is Slamguinius + Lemartes. Or is it Mephiston?
2) Is a unit of DC or SG necessary for such a detachment to function at all?
1. Well, good question. These are among the best most point efficient two-HQ combinations : Double captn slammy (both can get black rage), captn slammy and mephy, Captn slammy (with black rage) and lemmy.
2. No, not necessary, but it helps.
Also, a random third question:
3) Why 2 Power Fist + Inferno Pistol and 1 Thunder Hammer?
Because i bought my DC used and thats what the came with, i like WYSIWYG. Its not bad to have some weapons which can take out high T targets. With lemartes i can re-roll all failed hit rolls, so the -1 to hit for PF and TH isnt to bad. Infernos pistols are cheap, can be used in CC, and have the potential for huge damage. If i go without lemartes my DC only has chainswords and boltguns. I dont like that though. DC and lemmy belong together.
Suzuteo wrote: Quick question. Follow up on my questions about a minimal BA detachment.
It's going to have Slamguinius, Lemartes/Mephiston, 3x5 Scouts.
Is it important to have some Death Company jumpers? If so, what unit size should I be taking? 5? 10? 15? And I see a lot of companies mixing Thunder Hammers in. What is the best ratio? I guess 4:1?
I find 10 is a good number for Jump DC. Enough to generate a good number of hits (particularly with Lemmy) but not so large that morale becomes a serious problem.
I like 2 Thunder hammers and 3 power swords with bolters all round. 16 S4 shots followed by 35 attacks on the charge is great for horde clearance. 6 TH attacks will threaten most vehicles and monsters while power swords will mince tough infantry.
Is is important? That depends on what you want and what else you have in your army. My DC always deliver for me although they rarely survive the battle. You don't always need to use FF or DoA on them. Some armies you just know are going to come steaming towards you and you can use the DC as a counter-charge unit, thus saving the CPs.
@p5freak
1) Oh. You can use Death Visions twice then? I was unaware of this. Still, I think having two Thunder Hammers rerolling 1s is inefficient. I mean, neither would get to use Vengeance for Sanguinius. Mephiston can buff himself and Lemartes has that extra attack and the great support auras.
3) Ah. So 2PF+IP/1TH is not an optimization. Got it. From my math, it seems TH is best if you have Lemartes because of the reroll and lower points.
@Martel732
Trying to figure out how to make a small detachment work with the least point investment. BA probably have the easiest access to ways to transform CP into wounds, and their amazing HQs are the primary reason for this.
@Karhedron
Alright. I will consider 10 then. Might be hard to fit into my list. With 2 TH, it's 232 points for the DC alone.
Even in the fluff, Death Company not surviving the battle is considered a good thing. xD
Q: Is the Deployment step of a mission considered to be a ‘phase’
for the purposes of rules?
A: No.
Note that this means that the Strategic Discipline
matched play rule does not apply to Stratagems that are
used during deployment and they can be used as many
times as a player wishes, as long as they have enough
Command Points to pay for them and the Stratagem
does not explicitly say it can only be used ‘once’, or ‘once
per battle’.
The ruling that lets you use Death visions multiple times.
I am not sold on Lemartes if you don't also have some DC to benefit from his reroll aura. I think a second smash cap would do more and cost exactly the same points but with -1 CP for Black Rage. Lemartes's aura won't help your captains or scouts or mephiston over the reroll 1s aura and he only has a 4++ and 4W. He has more attacks but they are str 6 ... which threatens dramatically fewer things than str 8. Even a base slamcaptain swinging with no CP assistance is going to do more than double the damage lemartes would against any multi wound models. Lemartes will outperform slamcap against GEQs and Eldar troops, but that is not why I bring a blood angels smash hero.
Suzuteo wrote:@p5freak
1) Oh. You can use Death Visions twice then? I was unaware of this. Still, I think having two Thunder Hammers rerolling 1s is inefficient. I mean, neither would get to use Vengeance for Sanguinius. Mephiston can buff himself and Lemartes has that extra attack and the great support auras.
Vengeance for Sanguinius only works against HERETIC ASTARTES.
Wulfey wrote: I am not sold on Lemartes if you don't also have some DC to benefit from his reroll aura. I think a second smash cap would do more and cost exactly the same points but with -1 CP for Black Rage. Lemartes's aura won't help your captains or scouts or mephiston over the reroll 1s aura and he only has a 4++ and 4W. He has more attacks but they are str 6 ... which threatens dramatically fewer things than str 8. Even a base slamcaptain swinging with no CP assistance is going to do more than double the damage lemartes would against any multi wound models. Lemartes will outperform slamcap against GEQs and Eldar troops, but that is not why I bring a blood angels smash hero.
To argue the point, I see four arguments in favor of Lemartes over a second Captain:
1) Slamguinius is DC. So Lemartes and him have great aura synergy. Lemartes gives a charge reroll, which drastically improves the 9" Jump Pack Assault odds; if you use Descent of Angels, it's 93.28% of success. Slamguinius gives a shooting reroll, which is meh, but not nothing when fighting zombies or drones.
2) The statline is also comparable (assuming we're on the charge):
Slamguinius
12"M WS2+ BS2+ T4 5W 4A 9Ld 3+/4++/6+++
Thunder Hammer
5A S8 AP-3 D3; -1 to hit
The big differences here are that Lemartes trades 1W for 1A, can use Vengeance for Sanguinius ontop of Red Fury for an average 9.33 attacks, and as an aside, can be made your Warlord to gain Deny the Witch, if that's something you need.
3) You don't need two Thunder Hammers, since you're going to be buffing only one of them anyway. That being said, Blood Crozius is actually not bad. It's a Force Axe with +1S.
4) You can only take one Angel's Wing.
So really, after all is said and done, you are choosing between effects: A) Hammer of Baal + Stormshield B) Veritas Vitae (5+ CP recycler) + Stormshield C) The Blood Crozius + Bolt Pistol and charge reroll
p5freak wrote: Vengeance for Sanguinius only works against HERETIC ASTARTES.
Yeah. Who are perhaps the best target for The Blood Crozius (6A S6 AP-2 DD3). But those with Power Fist and Thunder Hammer can't use it and those weapons pretty much overkill everything but vehicles and Daemon Princes. Haha.
Hi all. This is my first post I’m new here, new to blood angels and nearly new to 40k. I went for BA because I love the unique units and characters and really want to field an army that makes use of as many of these as possible.
Having seen the faq I’m wondering if there is now a niche for the all flame Baal pred. What about taking two and using them together as a battering ram to smash a hole in your opponents screen first turn and create a drop zone for Sanguinary Guard to drop into?
Now I know they’re not well thought of but I imagine that’s because if you take only one then it becomes a huge target. But if you take two your opponent has to shoot them both off of the board first turn. If they fail to take them both out in their shooting phase then they either charge and get burned to a crisp, or leave you alone and get burned to a crisp next turn.
If you use lucifer pattern engines on one whilst popping smoke, and forlorn fury the DC up the board with them together first then, then your opponent has 3 big threats they have to deal with.
If you can use these 3 together to munch through any chaff and infantry then the sang guard can come down in the hole you create along with captain smash to get at any bigger stuff hiding in the back.
I like to think this is so crazy it just might work...but I’d like to hear some thoughts from more experienced players if it’s just plain crazy!
Having seen the faq I’m wondering if there is now a niche for the all flame Baal pred. What about taking two and using them together as a battering ram to smash a hole in your opponents screen first turn and create a drop zone for Sanguinary Guard to drop into?
Now I know they’re not well thought of but I imagine that’s because if you take only one then it becomes a huge target. But if you take two your opponent has to shoot them both off of the board first turn. If they fail to take them both out in their shooting phase then they either charge and get burned to a crisp, or leave you alone and get burned to a crisp next turn.
If you use lucifer pattern engines on one whilst popping smoke, and forlorn fury the DC up the board with them together first then, then your opponent has 3 big threats they have to deal with.
If you can use these 3 together to munch through any chaff and infantry then the sang guard can come down in the hole you create along with captain smash to get at any bigger stuff hiding in the back.
I like to think this is so crazy it just might work...but I’d like to hear some thoughts from more experienced players if it’s just plain crazy!
Good luck making it work. Baal preds are pretty much useless. To expensive, and flamers are pathetic. 34 pts for 7 boltgun auto hits is ridiculous. With lucifer engines only one baal pred can race across the battlefield, but cannot fire because it advanced, and it only has heavy weapons. If you try that on me i will shoot it with meltas in half range and/or i will tie it up in CC.
Zanox wrote: Hi all. This is my first post I’m new here, new to blood angels and nearly new to 40k. I went for BA because I love the unique units and characters and really want to field an army that makes use of as many of these as possible.
Having seen the faq I’m wondering if there is now a niche for the all flame Baal pred. What about taking two and using them together as a battering ram to smash a hole in your opponents screen first turn and create a drop zone for Sanguinary Guard to drop into?
Now I know they’re not well thought of but I imagine that’s because if you take only one then it becomes a huge target. But if you take two your opponent has to shoot them both off of the board first turn. If they fail to take them both out in their shooting phase then they either charge and get burned to a crisp, or leave you alone and get burned to a crisp next turn.
If you use lucifer pattern engines on one whilst popping smoke, and forlorn fury the DC up the board with them together first then, then your opponent has 3 big threats they have to deal with.
If you can use these 3 together to munch through any chaff and infantry then the sang guard can come down in the hole you create along with captain smash to get at any bigger stuff hiding in the back.
I like to think this is so crazy it just might work...but I’d like to hear some thoughts from more experienced players if it’s just plain crazy!
Sorry. There are much better anti-infantry threats with much greater range. Which is a shame, since heavy flame weapons should have a role to play in all this -1 to hit madness, but they need minimum 12" range and some additional reason to take them over the much more versatile bolters.
I find that, though expensive points wise, a Storm Raven works well to fulfill a nice fire support role in my army and can nicely clear chaff in preparation for a well timed charge with Death Company and Lemartes/Slamguinius.
Two Hurricane Bolter arrays along with a twin assault cannon and twin Heavy Bolter on the nose is pretty stellar at chopping a chunk out of a screen, and you have a pair of wing mounted Storm Strike missiles you can throw a a high value target or large model. They're St:8, -2 AP and 3 damage each, so they can put a nice dent into a vehicle or large creature.
I prefer them for mobile support of my forces as they move up the board and/or Deep Strike in.
Thanks for the feedback guys. I never really thought of it as autohit bolter shots but I can see where you’re coming from. My point however wasn’t for them to be brilliantly effective as a stand-alone tank, but to create a drop zone for whatever deepstriking units you have in turn 2.
2 of these in your opponents face together either burns your opponents screen to a crisp (creating a drop zone for the heavy hitters) or they both get shot off the board (unlikely, but if they do this it keeps the heat off your DC) or they get shot a bit and charged (hello overwatch - free turn of firing effectively if I’ve used LPE). If your opponent decides to back off to get out of range before attempting the charge then they’re doing exactly what you want in creating that bubble for the deep strike. I imagine this is not going to be viable against good tacticians but it will certainly have some shock factor with people not used to seeing it and not knowing how to deal with it
Zanox wrote: Thanks for the feedback guys. I never really thought of it as autohit bolter shots but I can see where you’re coming from. My point however wasn’t for them to be brilliantly effective as a stand-alone tank, but to create a drop zone for whatever deepstriking units you have in turn 2.
2 of these in your opponents face together either burns your opponents screen to a crisp (creating a drop zone for the heavy hitters) or they both get shot off the board (unlikely, but if they do this it keeps the heat off your DC) or they get shot a bit and charged (hello overwatch - free turn of firing effectively if I’ve used LPE). If your opponent decides to back off to get out of range before attempting the charge then they’re doing exactly what you want in creating that bubble for the deep strike. I imagine this is not going to be viable against good tacticians but it will certainly have some shock factor with people not used to seeing it and not knowing how to deal with it
Use Razerbacks with Assault Cannons (or Heavy bolters) for the same effect but better?
Ordana wrote: Use Razerbacks with Assault Cannons (or Heavy bolters) for the same effect but better?
I agree. Assbacks with storm bolters put out great firepower for their points, are reasonably durable and you can run 3 for the cost of 2 Baals. Plus you can use them to transport small squads and shield them from alpha strikes if you want.
Me again with my eternal struggle against the Necrons, this time it's wraiths.
With a 1k army, I don't have a great deal of points to throw away and I'm wary about throwing a load of points on DC and Lemmy in order to destroy 6 wraiths.
Captain smash manged to kill one in my last battle, despite his 3+ shield and 5+ DCFNP, he got cut up pretty badly.
10" movement and 3+ invuln makes them a tricky opponent in a limited points game, any thoughts?
p.s. Razorbacks generally get one shotted by the stalkers or Doomsday Ark :(
Wraiths are nasty. Anything that does MW to them is effective. Mephiston can smite them, blood boil them, charge them, use red rampage, and kill them in CC. Librarian dread can do the same, and its more resilient against attacks from them.
Page 91 – Intercessor Squad, Wargear Options
Change the third bullet point to read: ‘The Intercessor Sergeant may replace their bolt rifle with a power sword or chainsword. Alternatively they may take a power sword or chainsword in addition to their other weapons.’
Thanks for the replies guys.
I've been splitting my space marines between BA and Ravenguard. RG has a cant be overwatched warlord trait that's pretty juicy. A libby from each force that both have cant be overwatched is pretty neat, plus you get regular sm psyker powers so you can snag Nullzone and Might of Heros, both of which are really good for us.
Beyond that they have a t1 deepstrike that still works, which has been neat to put intercessors at 13", the aforementioned libby and something shooty right where you want it.
3rd battalion just ends up being a small IG force for extra bodies and CP.
p5freak wrote: Wraiths are nasty. Anything that does MW to them is effective. Mephiston can smite them, blood boil them, charge them, use red rampage, and kill them in CC. Librarian dread can do the same, and its more resilient against attacks from them.
Smashed the wraiths today
Oppo put them on the flank, two scout bike squads and two rhinos with twin storm bolters, given a bit of supporting fire from a tac squad with plasma took them down very nicely.
I had the libby dread, but oppo denied the wings for a turn so could not jump him in until turn 3, by that time the scout bikes and rhinos had oveerun the flank and libby jumped in to kill the big guys.
Hey guys, I've never used BA so I'd like to hear your opinions about a choice that I'm making. It's about an ally detachment for my Deathwatch.
Basic idea is that Deathwatch will provide the shooting and BA the melee/bodies/CP. From what I understand the utmost basic line-up for an allied detachment is:
- Captain Smash (TH + SS, Jumppack, relics?)
- 3 x 5 scouts (1 x HB each)
I've seen a couple pages back that Lemartes + 10 x DC are pretty good but I've also seen that Sanguinary guards + sanguinor are a thing. I'm wondering which one is better for my particular situation.
You can use any detachment as allies. BA isnt the best choice for providing bodies and CP, but they are good for melee. AM is best for bodies and CP. You need two HQ and three troops for a battalion. Good HQ units are captn slammy with TH, angels wings relic JP, mephiston, lemartes (if you take DC), libby dread. If you go the sanguinary road use a sang ancient with the standard of sacrifice as your warlord and a sang guard unit.
p5freak wrote: You can use any detachment as allies. BA isnt the best choice for providing bodies and CP, but they are good for melee. AM is best for bodies and CP. You need two HQ and three troops for a battalion. Good HQ units are captn slammy with TH, angels wings relic JP, mephiston, lemartes (if you take DC), libby dread. If you go the sanguinary road use a sang ancient with the standard of sacrifice as your warlord and a sang guard unit.
My bad, with bodies I just meant to add stuff to the list. Not necessarily a CP battery and screen fodder.
What exactly do the sanguinary guard offer that DC do not? They're beefier and pricier or is there some other huge upside to them? Also in regards to loadout & squad size, what do you give them, what's the magic number of dudes to take?
What exactly do the sanguinary guard offer that DC do not? They're beefier and pricier or is there some other huge upside to them? Also in regards to loadout & squad size, what do you give them, what's the magic number of dudes to take?
W2, 2+ sv, encarmine sword S4 AP-3 DD3. They re-roll failed hit rolls if within 6" of the warlord. If the sang ancient is the warlord with the standard of sacrifice relic they get 5+++ if within 6". And they re-roll wound rolls of 1.
Jetsquirrel wrote: Hey guys, I've never used BA so I'd like to hear your opinions about a choice that I'm making. It's about an ally detachment for my Deathwatch.
Basic idea is that Deathwatch will provide the shooting and BA the melee/bodies/CP. From what I understand the utmost basic line-up for an allied detachment is:
- Captain Smash (TH + SS, Jumppack, relics?)
- 3 x 5 scouts (1 x HB each)
I've seen a couple pages back that Lemartes + 10 x DC are pretty good but I've also seen that Sanguinary guards + sanguinor are a thing. I'm wondering which one is better for my particular situation.
Jetsquirrel wrote: Hey guys, I've never used BA so I'd like to hear your opinions about a choice that I'm making. It's about an ally detachment for my Deathwatch.
Basic idea is that Deathwatch will provide the shooting and BA the melee/bodies/CP. From what I understand the utmost basic line-up for an allied detachment is:
- Captain Smash (TH + SS, Jumppack, relics?)
- 3 x 5 scouts (1 x HB each)
I've seen a couple pages back that Lemartes + 10 x DC are pretty good but I've also seen that Sanguinary guards + sanguinor are a thing. I'm wondering which one is better for my particular situation.
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You really need a second HQ so you can run a Battalion for those extra CPs. DC + Lemartes and SG + Sanguinor and/or Sanguinary Ancient are both very good but work best against different targets.
SG have power weapons throughout, a 2+ save and 2 wounds. They basically work like flying Terminators and are at their best dealing with elite infantry. They can struggle against hordes due to low numbers of attacks and against very tough foes due to the lack of fixed-damage weapons. They are very durable and become even more so if you add a Standard of Sacrifice for a 5+++ save and a Sanguinary Novitiate/Priest to patch up injured models. I favour 8-10 models in a squad with an even mix of Encarmine swords and power fists. Don't take axes and only bother with special pistols if you have nothing better to spend the points on. 9 Models + Sanguinor cost about 500 points but I would consider adding the Ancient as well for FNP.
Death Company are cheaper and have an insane number of attacks for cutting through hordes. They can also get Thunder Hammers for dealing with tough targets. They synergise very well with Lemartes who provides rerolls to charge and to hit. I like a squad of 10 with 7 bolters+chainswords and 3 Thunder hammers. Death Company are a bit of glass cannon unit. They hit very hard but are not so durable. 10 DC + Lemartes comes in at about 350 points (depending on loadout).
Death Company are cheaper and bring their own rerolls more easily since Lemartes can reroll his own charge too and the whole squad gets rerolls to hit as long as one model is within 6" of him. Captain Smash also gains the "Death Company" keyword meaning he can benefit from Lemartes as well. Sanguinary Guard are more expensive and need more points invested in support. You also need to be careful as it is only models within 6" of the Warlord that get rerolls, not the whole squad.
If you are running Deathwatch, you have SIA to help cut down MEQs so my feeling is that the DC will work better in this context as they can deal with hordes or very tough targets as needed. SG will just bring more of what the DW have already. 3 squads of Scouts, 10 DC, Lemartes and Captain Smash should cost about 650 points depending on loadout and everything is fairly cheap but will hit hard.
Thinking of taking a blood angels battalion for a 5 round 2,000 point itc tournament , no forgeworld allowed, all the beta rules in affect, my current thinking is 3x5 scouts, Smash Captain, Lemartes and Mephy since none of my other detachments have psychic support, Is it better to run lemartes for the dc company re roll on captain smash or to cut him and take a 2nd captain?
It's just so depressing when looking at other armies tactical threads, and all we seem to get here are questions about how to cherry pick the few good units we have :(
Only few SM armies can function well on their own. UM can, RG can, DA can, we cant. Because we are melee oriented, and its still hard to get everything in CC in one turn. And even if we pull it off the enemy can simply fallback and shred us to pieces.
Hey, I need some help. I was about to get rid of my Blood Angels army when I was told they are still viable. So, before I try and unload them, I thought i would reach out and see if I can still play them.
That being said I have the folowing
Mephiston
Lemartis
Sanguinius
Sang Priest w/Jmp Pack
Sang Priest on Foot
Chaplain w/ Jump Pack
20 Tact
10 Assault Marines on foot
20 DC 10 Sang Guard
3 DC Dreads
10 Bikers
3 Rhinos/Vindicators
1 Razorback
5 Sniper Scouts
A Load of Bits to Convert
So with this and maybe a little room for Conversions What is actually Viable in a 2k semi Competitive area?
Second I have seen a couple units that are key for certain builds and options, I keep seeing Smash Captain, or Slamginious? What is this build?
KnightScion wrote: Hey, I need some help. I was about to get rid of my Blood Angels army when I was told they are still viable. So, before I try and unload them, I thought i would reach out and see if I can still play them.
That being said I have the folowing
Mephiston
Lemartis
Sanguinius
Sang Priest w/Jmp Pack
Sang Priest on Foot
Chaplain w/ Jump Pack
20 Tact
10 Assault Marines on foot
20 DC 10 Sang Guard
3 DC Dreads
10 Bikers
3 Rhinos/Vindicators
1 Razorback
5 Sniper Scouts
A Load of Bits to Convert
So with this and maybe a little room for Conversions What is actually Viable in a 2k semi Competitive area?
Second I have seen a couple units that are key for certain builds and options, I keep seeing Smash Captain, or Slamginious? What is this build?
BA are viable selectively. Scouts, captains, Meph, Lemartes, DC, sang g, are about it. Put some mix of these in a IG and or custodes army and you'll do all right. Full BA is not great.
Captain smash is a captain with a jump pack, hammer, and shield, warlord trait that gives +1 damage, and relic jump pack. Then you use the strat to make him death company, and use a few CP a turn to give him more attacks and whatnot. The details are in this thread in the last 5 pages or so, but he is a monster.
The first 450 points of BA are soooo good. But the rest of the army is just bleh. What is the point of an army of T7 shoot cars that don't have any defensive bonuses? Or airplanes that have been point nerfed to irrelevance? That first death company bomb is awesome. The second one has no strategems to use. I love my 2x slam + 3x5 bolter scout battalion in my soup list. What a great 450 points. But nothing else in the dex seems like a good idea.
Been thinking about tweaking the BA component of my tourney army.
At the last GT I went 3-3 with the DC coming up small in 2 of my losses, and big in all 3 wins. In one loss I deployed them when I shouldn't have, and then didn't commit them when I should have. The other one I rolled a 2+2+1 for my 3D6 charge. The Meta was vehicle crazy, so I was thinking of dropping a wyvren for a 3rd BA character.
Current list:
Spoiler:
Note: This is for Renegade open missions at 2K points.
Problem is I can't figure out which character. Another Captain Hammer or Lemartes, I can't pick which one. Captain Hammer hits harder, but Lemartes is no slouch and he buffs the DC to prevent the 2+2+1 charge roll.
Right now my thinking is Lemartes, but it seems like everywhere I look people are running multiple thunder hammer captains. What do you think?
Question 2: Hive Guard + Neurothropes + Hive Tyrants gave me some fits. I never successfully cast a spell with Mephiston while in shadows that wasn't denied. He comes up big when there isn't psychic defense. But Tyranids are big, and I need him to do something more substantial in those games. I went 3-3, but 0-2 vs Nids. My other loss was to necrons and was because I didn't have enough terrain to hide a wyvren out of LOS. The game was mine if terrain had been a bit better, or if I had understood the doomsday ark's shooting gets weaker if they move.
Question 3: I never played them, but -2 to hit Aeldari Fliers were everywhere. Anyone got experience against that sort of army. One of the top lists was 3 Hemlocks, 3 Crimson Hunter Exarchs, 3 Wave Serpents, 2 Guardians, 1 Dire Avenger, 2 characters. I assume I should reserve my DC if I line up against a list like that.
tag8833 wrote: Been thinking about tweaking the BA component of my tourney army.
At the last GT I went 3-3 with the DC coming up small in 2 of my losses, and big in all 3 wins. In one loss I deployed them when I shouldn't have, and then didn't commit them when I should have. The other one I rolled a 2+2+1 for my 3D6 charge. The Meta was vehicle crazy, so I was thinking of dropping a wyvren for a 3rd BA character.
Problem is I can't figure out which character. Another Captain Hammer or Lemartes, I can't pick which one. Captain Hammer hits harder, but Lemartes is no slouch and he buffs the DC to prevent the 2+2+1 charge roll.
Question 2: Hive Guard + Neurothropes + Hive Tyrants gave me some fits. I never successfully cast a spell with Mephiston while in shadows that wasn't denied. He comes up big when there isn't psychic defense. But Tyranids are big, and I need him to do something more substantial in those games. I went 3-3, but 0-2 vs Nids. My other loss was to necrons and was because I didn't have enough terrain to hide a wyvren out of LOS. The game was mine if terrain had been a bit better, or if I had understood the doomsday ark's shooting gets weaker if they move.
Fight tyranids with their own weapons, get culexus assassin(s). Enemy psykers within 18" suffer -2 to psychic and deny the witch tests, and the culexus cannot be targeted of affected by psychic power in any way. Also he only gets hit on 6+.
Question 3: I never played them, but -2 to hit Aeldari Fliers were everywhere. Anyone got experience against that sort of army. One of the top lists was 3 Hemlocks, 3 Crimson Hunter Exarchs, 3 Wave Serpents, 2 Guardians, 1 Dire Avenger, 2 characters. I assume I should reserve my DC if I line up against a list like that.
Relic sicaran battle tank, his main gun ignores any modifier when shooting FLY units. You can advance (its main gun is assault), and shoot that -2 to hit flyer without any negative modifier.
Question 3: I never played them, but -2 to hit Aeldari Fliers were everywhere. Anyone got experience against that sort of army. One of the top lists was 3 Hemlocks, 3 Crimson Hunter Exarchs, 3 Wave Serpents, 2 Guardians, 1 Dire Avenger, 2 characters. I assume I should reserve my DC if I line up against a list like that.
Relic sicaran battle tank, his main gun ignores any modifier when shooting FLY units. You can advance (its main gun is assault), and shoot that -2 to hit flyer without any negative modifier.
Doesn't it roll over and die as soon as an eldar flier looks at it? Seems like a fair solution if you go 1st, but if not aren't you mainly throwing points away?
Question 2: Hive Guard + Neurothropes + Hive Tyrants gave me some fits. I never successfully cast a spell with Mephiston while in shadows that wasn't denied. He comes up big when there isn't psychic defense. But Tyranids are big, and I need him to do something more substantial in those games. I went 3-3, but 0-2 vs Nids. My other loss was to necrons and was because I didn't have enough terrain to hide a wyvren out of LOS. The game was mine if terrain had been a bit better, or if I had understood the doomsday ark's shooting gets weaker if they move.
Fight tyranids with their own weapons, get culexus assassin(s). Enemy psykers within 18" suffer -2 to psychic and deny the witch tests, and the culexus cannot be targeted of affected by psychic power in any way. Also he only gets hit on 6+.
Very Likely Celestine turns into 2 Culexuses and an Eversor.
tag8833 wrote: Doesn't it roll over and die as soon as an eldar flier looks at it? Seems like a fair solution if you go 1st, but if not aren't you mainly throwing points away?
It has T7 W14. If the eldar players wants it dead, yes, can happen.
Okay how stupid my 1st turn charge was. I had ba(slam captain with enchanced fnp warlord), lib dred, chaplain, 3x5 tac spuad with plasmas, 2 heavy support squad, 10 death company with thunder hammer and 2 powerfist plus 2 inferno pistol. Also ig with 2 company commander, 4 inf squad, 3 mortar and finally 2 armiger. Was up against dark angel with azrael firebase, land raider with tacticals inside, some bikes. Scenario was hold objective from both dz sudden death.
So i got first turn and as there had been good los screen in case i go 2nd had moved death company forward. With this i decided to charge so sent captain slam and death company. Alas had been too confident so armigers and las devastators had tickled predator. Also forgot inf pistol. Charge succeeded but partly forgetting red thirst(my first game with ba on 8th), partly him rolling 5/6 5+ save land raider took only 3 damage.
On his turn he wiped captain, death company and left 1 knight to 1 wound losing both next turn.
So apart from bad luck should i have charged or not? Had planned to use captain to get the plasmd cannon devastators or the -1 to hit model if in reach. Or death company if they alive instead. As it is with all 4 forward elements out couldn't hope to hold both objectives and soon came clear even draw was hopeless. Lib dread took land raider but krak missile(3) and bolters(3) took him to 2 wounds and opposite dred finished with fist. Lack of inv save hurts
That would have meant no charges before he advances and with more guns, rerolls to hit and reroll 1's to wound shooting duel was not in my favour at all. He could easily spend like 2-3 turns shooting my stuff, knights and anti tank first, before coming to my charge range.
Edit oh and dred and prea could manouver could manourer to see death company. Maybe land raider. Block was most useful vs devastators
Being BA sucks right now. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you must charge a LR, just send a token force to keep it from firing. Expending the resources to kill it just seems silly.
Goal wasn't kill it(though should have been able to do that. Especially here if i had remembered scenario twist of extra attack) but to give me reach to get to firebase. Without it i can just trade firepower. Captain could deep strike charge 9 pred, land raider or regular bikes on right. Considered that but then death company would be sitting possibly taking wounds.
Didn'' expect to lose that much stuff but saves were abysmal
Rolling cold on one turn of saves is one of the many ways marines can fall apart in 8th. There's not much you can do since we are paying so much for the saves.
You seem to have rolled very poorly (and forgot the red thirst). I assume you had the capt giving rerolls aswell, so even without a red rampage stratagem and no shooting you should have made 18+ damage on average.
To finish stuff up, there's the 3CP stratagem to attack twice.. but I agree, LR isn't really a good target.. from my perspective when I haven't seen the game or the situation it's a tough call. At least they died gloriously!
My mental note is that if I go all in, then I'm all in and try to take all the benefits from the stratagems to get the job done.
Btw, could you have tried to bubble wrap the LR with the DC? That it can't move or things disembark? 10 models might be too lil' for that sized vehicle..
Only real alternative would have been use captain to solo hunt reqular bikes on far right. I had to do something as otherwise he has zero incentive to move closer so can just shoot with his superior firepower. Guess that would have given less potential firepower leaving just dred with fist as serious threat. From there i still might have made to devastators.
Also not doing anything to lr leaves it free to hurt knights. As it is it fell back and shot with strategem hurting knight big time getting 3 lascannons through. 3+ rerolled, 3+ reroll 1's and no saves worked. Blah
Wrap would have needed better charge or me risk it and prioritize speed over los protection but with +1 to him didn't want to gamble turn 1
I have found something weird in the equipment of scout sergeants. Can I equip him with dual melee weapons?
1. - As a start he has a default equipment - Each model is armed with a boltgun, bolt pistol, frag grenades and krak grenades.
2. - I can give him a combat knife replacing the boltgun - Any model may replace its boltgun with a sniper rifle, an Astartes shotgun or a combat knife.
3. - I can replace his pistol with a chainsword - The Scout Sergeant may replace his bolt pistol with an item from the Melee Weapons or Pistols lists.
Sergeant has 2 attacks and in melee I can choose how to divide them between weapons. I make 1 attack with both that triggers the +1 attack rule for each of them. That results in 4 attacks for the sergeant in close combats (and no option to shoot).
By replacing all boltguns with combat knives in the squad results in 2 attacks / marine + 4 attacks for the sarge = 12 total melee attacks.
Is it legal like that? If yes, it's kinda cool for BA scouts.
Correct. And btw you don't need to attack with those weapons to trigger extra attack. You have a4 guy with fist and chainsword it's 4 fist and 1 sword attack.
admironheart wrote:I want to know if its legal as well. Good catch.
Yes, its legal.
tneva82 wrote:Correct. And btw you don't need to attack with those weapons to trigger extra attack. You have a4 guy with fist and chainsword it's 4 fist and 1 sword attack.
Has anyone had any thoughts about adding knights to their blood angels lists? I'm tempted to add a free blade gallant for added melee punch and a bid distraction unit at a reasonable price.
3 armiger helverins makes for a nice backline. You don't get any CP for the detachment, but they're basically predators with better range, more shots, an invuln, nice speed, some actual (not hitting on 6's) melee attacks, and a house trait. You could take Vulker's reroll 1's against closest target or hawkshroud's extra resistance to degrading, or Tarannis' 6+ fnp vs non-mortal wounds.
I think 1 knight by itself, or 1 and two little knights is pretty valid as well, for most armies. Still no CP though, so you'd probably want at least one other battillion around.
1 big knight by itself is definitely going to get focused, but you can reliably get a 3++ vs shooting on it until your CP run out.
niv-mizzet wrote: 3 armiger helverins makes for a nice backline. You don't get any CP for the detachment, but they're basically predators with better range, more shots, an invuln, nice speed, some actual (not hitting on 6's) melee attacks, and a house trait. You could take Vulker's reroll 1's against closest target or hawkshroud's extra resistance to degrading, or Tarannis' 6+ fnp vs non-mortal wounds.
I prefer contemptor mortis dreads with twin autocannons. Or regular contemptor dreads. Play them as RG and they get chapter tactics, -1 to hit. A techmarine as HQ can repair them. The detachment gives you 1 CP. Predator have become pretty useless, you already explained why.
jcd386 wrote: I think 1 knight by itself, or 1 and two little knights is pretty valid as well, for most armies. Still no CP though, so you'd probably want at least one other battillion around.
1 big knight by itself is definitely going to get focused, but you can reliably get a 3++ vs shooting on it until your CP run out.
I am quite tempted by a Crusader and a pair of Armiger Warglaives for fire support and anti-tank. Combine with a BA Battalion featuring Captain Smash, some Intercessors for Objective holding, some Scouts for CC and screening and some Death Company with Lemartes to cut through chaff. Seems like an effective combo on paper.
Hi Blood Angel players - I have a quick question regarding BA Scouts. I'm going to try to wean off my IG Battalion crutch, and switch to double smashcap with 3 units of scouts instead.
I'm really on the fence between combat knives or bolters for my 15 guys.
They'll be roadbumps for my DW, and I'll be running a Gallant quite a bit too.
I am new to BA.
So need some advice on how to equip my BA that is part of an IG army.
I use my BA Vanguard detachment as a deepstrike force that come in to aid the IG in their time of need.
I want to use it as an all comers list. But I have no experience with power armor armies and the many equipment choices in a unit ( like every model can have something different) (play guard and necrons)
Death Company [9 PL, 158pts]
Selections: Jump Pack [1 PL, 15pts]
Death Company Marine [33pts]
Selections: Thunder hammer [16pts]
Death Company Marine [33pts]
Selections: Thunder hammer [16pts]
Death Company Marine [33pts]
Selections: Thunder hammer [16pts]
Death Company Marine [22pts]
Selections: Boltgun, Power axe [5pts]
Death Company Marine [22pts]
Selections: Boltgun, Power axe [5pts]
grouchoben wrote: Hi Blood Angel players - I have a quick question regarding BA Scouts. I'm going to try to wean off my IG Battalion crutch, and switch to double smashcap with 3 units of scouts instead.
I'm really on the fence between combat knives or bolters for my 15 guys.
They'll be roadbumps for my DW, and I'll be running a Gallant quite a bit too.
Which would you go for? Thanks for your thoughts.
Ultimately the scouts loadout doesn't matter a ton, it just depends on how much you think they'll see combat, since BA are sightly better at it than normal SM. I find my scouts usually just die pretty quickly so I'm not sure it's ever really mattered what weapon they have.
I'm assuming you don't own the actual codex... If you would you would know that the stratagems final sentence is "..You can only use this stratagem once."
Hey what do you guys think, do we have time to entertain ourselves now that this thread is bit dead after all the new codex releases?
I'm suggesting that let's make a collective competitive all comers list together. While doing this we could share our personal insights why certain unit with exact composition is the way to go. Me as a BA at heart would like this.. if you gun down this idea fine, I'll just stop suggesting.
For starters I would suggest the following base for the list. Disagree and let's just change the concept. Should the list be 1500 or 2000 I'm all open for ideas..
Back to the topic for the base:
Spoiler:
This is my insight that I've found worthy. AssRazor with plasma tacticals is nice to have. That dev composition with 2 unit saturation to have (signum for PC, flakk/hellfire for other) I've done 4d3 MW on my 1st turn with cherubs and 2 CP.
Scouts for screens.
Capt Smash has been 1-2 turns my reroll to hit buffer before UWoF, yet I have felt that I need a static reroll to hit capt..
Mephy has been sitting in the razor upfront T1, before disembarking and flying (hopefully) against enemy lines. I've always had enough interesting targets at hand.
EDIT:
(Lemmy and DC are there for fluffyness and that's been my best kit so far, although I actually prefer SG over DC, but let's keep/add SG together if we want..)
Martel732 wrote: Take out the DC. They no longer serve any purpose.
Your quite right, took them and Lemartes away and added a stock lieutenant which I actually forgot.. Should we add a jump pack assault threat? Sanguinary guard along with SG ancient? What size the SG blob should be, I've run 7man..
8man Sanguinary guard + 6x swords & A. boltguns + 2x fist & inferno pistols Sanguinary ancient + relic banner
Were at 1299pts
The list needs more dakka/anti-tank to fill a spearhead..
The SG with FNP banner have an actual (although small) chance of living through a Xeno shooting phase. DC have no chance at all, and the game is no longer about clearing chaff.
I usually run 9 SG for maximum tankiness. I've been using all fists.
DC were about clearing screens on turn 1. Now, they can't do that, so I don't see what function they serve anymore. They just die because they are 1 W spankers. Also, needing a babysitter is quite annoying at this stage.
Came up against these guys. The guy had a "YOLO captain" as he called it. Guy had a jumpack and chainsword and tore up my backline killed a unit liked into another killed almost all that unit and died. I don't have his list, but anyone know what model/data card unit and waegear this is. I think he had a chainsword and jumpack and had a 3d6 charge.
That's just a captain with the "Death Visions of Sanguinius" strat on him.
I think the chainsword/powersword/jumpack version is a cheap Buck 07 and can get up to 9 powersword attacks and a chainsword attack on the charge. He isn't good againgst 2+ saves but againgst infantry he can solo about 60 guardsmen over the course of a game.
Dynas wrote: Came up against these guys. The guy had a "YOLO captain" as he called it. Guy had a jumpack and chainsword and tore up my backline killed a unit liked into another killed almost all that unit and died. I don't have his list, but anyone know what model/data card unit and waegear this is. I think he had a chainsword and jumpack and had a 3d6 charge.
The chainsword is an odd choice, but BA captains have access to a lot of strategems that make them scary. Typically you see a hammer, shield, relic jump pack (to ignore overwatch), and the warlord trait that gives his weapon +1 damage. Then they can use a strat to make him death company (6+ FNP and +1 attack on the charge), another to get D3 more attacks, another for a 3d6 charge, and more to fight again.
All of these together make him better than 2 or 3 normal captains. It's pretty much the only thing BA have going for them right now.
Dynas wrote: Came up against these guys. The guy had a "YOLO captain" as he called it. Guy had a jumpack and chainsword and tore up my backline killed a unit liked into another killed almost all that unit and died. I don't have his list, but anyone know what model/data card unit and waegear this is. I think he had a chainsword and jumpack and had a 3d6 charge.
The chainsword is an odd choice, but BA captains have access to a lot of strategems that make them scary. Typically you see a hammer, shield, relic jump pack (to ignore overwatch), and the warlord trait that gives his weapon +1 damage. Then they can use a strat to make him death company (6+ FNP and +1 attack on the charge), another to get D3 more attacks, another for a 3d6 charge, and more to fight again.
All of these together make him better than 2 or 3 normal captains. It's pretty much the only thing BA have going for them right now.
Thats it. It charged hiveguard, ignored overwatch, had the FnP, extra attacks, i think he did the chainsword for extra attack. Just a crazy amount of damage output and return on investment.
Bummer that this is only thing good on list. It was a soup list with cheap AM Battalion and Custodes w/ BA
One thing to bear in mind when consolidating and using a strat to attack twice is that you can't attack the unit consolidated into that turn unless you declared them as a target when declaring charges.
So, do we suck again? Nearly spent a decade getting creamed by everything (usually Tau and Eldar spam lists) and I'm really not looking forward to going through that again.
I'm seeing that Sanguinary Guards still have staying power. what about scouts? The beta killed first turn charges so should we replace them with tacs or primaris just to survive a xeno shooting phase?
Is slamguinius still our go to or is this new guy the BA version of Murderwings...Ragewings or whatsit the better option, or both? Anything to halt the crushing despair of uselessness.
scouts are still very useful in a BA list. They still push back infiltrating units and you can utilize them for 2 good stratagems (not to mention they are cheap troops that let you deploy in places you normally couldn't).
Take a heavy bolter and a missle launcher in them for the extra mortal wounds and don't deploy them as aggressively as BA players previously would.
The captain + x3 scouts + some other HQ in a battillion is about peak competitiveness for BA. The HQ can be a lib, Meph, or another captain.
Anything after that sort of declines. Devastators and sang guard afternoon terrible though. DC took a hit with the FAQ but I could see a small number bring okayish.
It seems like the best way to play Imperial armies right now is to take the best bits of each codex and ally them together.
BA + Custodes, DW, IK, IG, or some kind of mix there is going to be better than just one book by itself. You also generally want to stay away from the marine statline when possible unless you have special rules to boost them like dev cherubs or captain smash.
Hadrian Solus wrote: So, do we suck again? Nearly spent a decade getting creamed by everything (usually Tau and Eldar spam lists) and I'm really not looking forward to going through that again.
I'm seeing that Sanguinary Guards still have staying power. what about scouts? The beta killed first turn charges so should we replace them with tacs or primaris just to survive a xeno shooting phase?
Is slamguinius still our go to or is this new guy the BA version of Murderwings...Ragewings or whatsit the better option, or both? Anything to halt the crushing despair of uselessness.
All meqs basically suck again. Because GW didn't really look ahead last year with the codices. However, the older codices are getting revamped in CA, allegedly.
well...I love my Sanguinary Guard....They were the only thing that got me through my last match with Dark Eldar without being tabled and actually giving a good account of myself. Hard to see myself parting with them as they're the tankiest damn thing with their banner--so that's some stubbornness on my part
I'm not particularly pleased with the amount of soup that's necessary to win...but I can suck it up. I sidelined my DC. wish I hadn't bought that new lemartes mini :/
I do however dig everything about Knights, I may look into getting armiger helverins
Hey folks,
I'm an AdMech guy and I wanna add a Blood Angels Batallion to my Stygies Melee Bomb (mainly Dragoons) and I'm looking for good choice for that.
So 3x5 Scouts and Captain Smash are a must a think, but what comes after that?
I was thinking about Lemartes + 10-15 DC, but you guys talking about that DC seems to be not very good got me thinking...
What options do I have else?
Xirax wrote: Hey what do you guys think, do we have time to entertain ourselves now that this thread is bit dead after all the new codex releases?
I'm suggesting that let's make a collective competitive all comers list together. While doing this we could share our personal insights why certain unit with exact composition is the way to go. Me as a BA at heart would like this.. if you gun down this idea fine, I'll just stop suggesting.
For starters I would suggest the following base for the list. Disagree and let's just change the concept. Should the list be 1500 or 2000 I'm all open for ideas..
Back to the topic for the base:
Spoiler:
This is my insight that I've found worthy. AssRazor with plasma tacticals is nice to have. That dev composition with 2 unit saturation to have (signum for PC, flakk/hellfire for other) I've done 4d3 MW on my 1st turn with cherubs and 2 CP.
Scouts for screens.
Capt Smash has been 1-2 turns my reroll to hit buffer before UWoF, yet I have felt that I need a static reroll to hit capt..
Mephy has been sitting in the razor upfront T1, before disembarking and flying (hopefully) against enemy lines. I've always had enough interesting targets at hand.
EDIT:
(Lemmy and DC are there for fluffyness and that's been my best kit so far, although I actually prefer SG over DC, but let's keep/add SG together if we want..)
Hmm,
before I update the mono BA list.. few things need to be settled.
1. 2k level is easier than 1,5k which seem to be a trend?
2. Do we need 2 batallions for the CP?
3. Our heavy section is just 3+ dev squads with cherub ML, HB and something.
4. At 2k I want to be BA and add both SG and DC for fun..
5. If we take just devs for the heavy section, do we need a company ancient?
6. Are single predators really that bad vs. a dev squad? 2x devs with ML, HB and PC/LC is decent, but for the third option...
Now I'm looking at:
Batallion
Capt Slam
Mephiston
5x scouts
5x scouts
5x tacs plasma & combi-plasma
Razor w/ asscan & SB
Spearhead
Lieutenant
devs devs devs
Vanguard
Lemartes
SG ancient
7+ SG 10+ DC w/ chainsword & bolters and couple fist/TH
All this goes in to vain when we are looking at our meta's (and some TO) new 1,5k standard. It's way lot easier to pull a synergizied 1,5k list from xenos.. "boo-hoo"?
Xirax wrote: Hmm,
before I update the mono BA list.. few things need to be settled.
1. 2k level is easier than 1,5k which seem to be a trend?
2. Do we need 2 batallions for the CP?
3. Our heavy section is just 3+ dev squads with cherub ML, HB and something.
4. At 2k I want to be BA and add both SG and DC for fun..
5. If we take just devs for the heavy section, do we need a company ancient?
6. Are single predators really that bad vs. a dev squad? 2x devs with ML, HB and PC/LC is decent, but for the third option...
Now I'm looking at:
Batallion
Capt Slam
Mephiston
5x scouts
5x scouts
5x tacs plasma & combi-plasma
Razor w/ asscan & SB
Spearhead
Lieutenant
devs devs devs
Vanguard
Lemartes
SG ancient
7+ SG 10+ DC w/ chainsword & bolters and couple fist/TH
All this goes in to vain when we are looking at our meta's (and some TO) new 1,5k standard. It's way lot easier to pull a synergizied 1,5k list from xenos.. "boo-hoo"?
I haven't been using Sanguinary Guard at all, too expensive and die just about at quick to a lot of the newer heavy weapons out there, so I can't comment on SG with SG Ancient. However, I have found the Company Ancient with relic banner standing in the middle of my Devs to be amazing. It is a VERY durable module that has caused more than a few opponents grief when buffed by a dirt cheap Captain and LT.
I have also been using a Jump Pack Libby over Captain Slam, the extra attack from Unleash Rage on the DC, and getting off Wings to guarantee a charge when he drops in with the DC and Lemartes has been game winning. I will most likely convert up a Captain Slammy if the CA: 2018 doesn't do much to improve the state of the rest of the army, because right now I'm not even playing anymore because it is pretty much a waste of time to play games you know from the beginning your going to lose as a pure Blood Angels force.
My Devs have all been 3x Missile Launcher, and that has worked out quite well. A bit overpriced for what they do, but at smaller point levels like 1,500, dumping a boat load of Frag Missile shots to clear hordes has been well worth it.
Besides that, the bones of your list seems to be near identical to mine, so while I have had moderate luck with it, I am excited to hear how yours does for you.
I think the issue is you really only want 1 BA detatchment
Yes you probably want a 2nd brigade if you can you eat CP and preferably one to hold your back field e.g. catachan infantry (jungle fighters fit in with baal)
Your heavy selection really should come from you non BA tertiary detatchment although i am partial to a baal predator
No devs if you want devs be a salamander
Sang guard and DC reguire different supporting models and both have been hampered by the DS change running both is less efficient unless your running 1 small DC squad
You dont need a company ancient as no Devs
Preds are bad compared to russes dunecrawlers and other imperial options ally yoir artillery leave BA to the chargeing
Xirax wrote: Hmm,
before I update the mono BA list.. few things need to be settled.
1. 2k level is easier than 1,5k which seem to be a trend?
2. Do we need 2 batallions for the CP?
3. Our heavy section is just 3+ dev squads with cherub ML, HB and something.
4. At 2k I want to be BA and add both SG and DC for fun..
5. If we take just devs for the heavy section, do we need a company ancient?
6. Are single predators really that bad vs. a dev squad? 2x devs with ML, HB and PC/LC is decent, but for the third option...
Now I'm looking at:
Batallion
Capt Slam
Mephiston
5x scouts
5x scouts
5x tacs plasma & combi-plasma
Razor w/ asscan & SB
Spearhead
Lieutenant
devs devs devs
Vanguard
Lemartes
SG ancient
7+ SG 10+ DC w/ chainsword & bolters and couple fist/TH
All this goes in to vain when we are looking at our meta's (and some TO) new 1,5k standard. It's way lot easier to pull a synergizied 1,5k list from xenos.. "boo-hoo"?
Point was to create the list as mono BA so have to settle on units we have access to.
Some time till I get a game under my belt, I'm using all my WH time to finish an add-on to our gaming boars... 4x4 rmodular ruined city block with 4-5 level buildings.. When it's finished, I'll have a go for sure.
Well, so one of my buddies has convinced me to unshelve my Blood Angels. After a few months of going hard in the tournament circuits with his Tau, he wants to unwind with a long Narrative style campaign. We are going to be playing obviously bad, but themed lists, and linking the games together.
What I mean by linking the games together, is that we are going to draw up a campaign map, where the missions are determined based off wins or losses. We thought it would be vool to have us fighting across a continent, and ending the campaign with a big battle of my 3,500 points of Blood Angels plus my 2,500 points of Tallarn/Inquisition.
Just for pure amusement, here is my 2,000 points Blood Angels list I will be using. It's theme is that it is Blood Angels patrol force, or that they are quickly moving to another battlefront/carrying an important relic to their headquarters for Mephiston. I made the list up as an Unbound list in Battlescribe just to dork around, but it will just be two Battalions.
Devastator Squad [8 PL, 140pts] . Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun
Devastator Squad [8 PL, 140pts] . Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun
+ Dedicated Transport +
Razorback [5 PL, 114pts]: Twin assault cannon
Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter
Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter
Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter
Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter
++ Total: [106 PL, 2000pts] ++
Oh yes, there will be five characters in the Razorback haha. Devs with no Cherub and riding in a Rhino?! And speaking of Rhinos... Four of them baby. NO assault elements?! Dreadnoughts haha... Oh man. This looks hilariously bad, but so much fun. I am excited to finally get to use six of my eight five man Tactical Squads. It should be fun to just dump forty-five Marines out of vehicles in a single turn, and will look cool as heck while they do it. I haven't been this excited for some games of 40k with my Blood Angels in a long time now.
I´m writing a list atm and I want to build a small firebase which is buffed by my Veritas Vitae carrying Captain. I have 350-450 points left over and need mainly anti infantry shooting.
What are my best options here? TAC with HB, Intercessors, Devastators with HB? (1 Devastator squad is ok for me, but the rest of the choices should be Standard, since I have to fill out that batallion)
I´m writing a list atm and I want to build a small firebase which is buffed by my Veritas Vitae carrying Captain. I have 350-450 points left over and need mainly anti infantry shooting.
What are my best options here? TAC with HB, Intercessors, Devastators with HB? (1 Devastator squad is ok for me, but the rest of the choices should be Standard, since I have to fill out that batallion)
A Dev squad or two with a missile launcher and heavy bolter is always good to have around.
You want a dev squad with HB, PC, LC and/or ML and 1-2 more marines as ablative wounds, plus a cherub. If you pick the ML you can use flakk missile against units with FLY for D3 MW. The HB can be used will hellfire shells to do D3 MW to any target. Both stratagems can be used with the cherub to shoot again (confirmed by SMFAQ) for 2D3 MW. You can overcharge the PC, the captain will let you re-roll 1s. Use the signum on another weapon. Or use the signum on the PC, even if you roll 1 twice you will miss, but not blow up, because of the +1 from the signum.
Oh yes, there will be five characters in the Razorback haha. Devs with no Cherub and riding in a Rhino?! And speaking of Rhinos... Four of them baby. NO assault elements?! Dreadnoughts haha... Oh man. This looks hilariously bad, but so much fun. I am excited to finally get to use six of my eight five man Tactical Squads. It should be fun to just dump forty-five Marines out of vehicles in a single turn, and will look cool as heck while they do it. I haven't been this excited for some games of 40k with my Blood Angels in a long time now.
I'm genuinely curious how this list works for you. I'm hoping the plasma tacticals in rhinos work better than you're expecting. For some reason I've always wanted to try a mechanized Blood Angels force ever since I was a kid, but I never have.
p5freak wrote: You want a dev squad with HB, PC, LC and/or ML and 1-2 more marines as ablative wounds, plus a cherub. If you pick the ML you can use flakk missile against units with FLY for D3 MW. The HB can be used will hellfire shells to do D3 MW to any target. Both stratagems can be used with the cherub to shoot again (confirmed by SMFAQ) for 2D3 MW. You can overcharge the PC, the captain will let you re-roll 1s. Use the signum on another weapon. Or use the signum on the PC, even if you roll 1 twice you will miss, but not blow up, because of the +1 from the signum.
This sounds quite nice indeed, ty for the feedback.
Since I still need to fill out my 3 troop choices what troops would you add to this firebase?
Use scouts with cloaks and boltguns and hide them cover to get a 2+ armor sv, use a stormbolter on the sarge. Or equip them with with combat knives, sarge with knife and chainsword. Cloaks only if you have the points, they will have to move to get into CC, cloaks are useless outside of cover, and use them as assault units. With 12 attacks, hitting on 3s, and red thirst +1 to wound they arent bad in melee. I think both options are good. You can also mix them, if you want.
A scout with cloak is 1 more point then a TAC and only has the same save while in cover, so I dunno...
Also I´m looking for units to hang out with my devs and captain, so no melee scouts.
You are ignoring the scouts special ability, concealed positions. I suggest you read it. They can deploy outside your deployment zone, near an objective marker, denying a possible deepstrike position for your opponent.
only a complete 
