Emicrania wrote: I was thinking a terminator unit with Lightning Claws coming in T3 would be ideal , usually by that time is mostly lighter stuff left on the board or character with high Invu that don't care about high AP or multi dmg They are 175 points and unbuffed Turn3 is 21A 2+ 5++, with sanguinor and Libby behind they can dish out what, 30 something Attacks -2 D1?
Everything is good in BA in melee with 2 buffers of any kind supporting them. Problem is that you cant use Descent on them if you really need that charge to make it and of you fail the charge against a faster unit you will not easily catch up. Also you are forced to put them in DS because they are too slow to walk.
They cant really do anything our JP units cant do and are way less flexible. Having 2 wounds isnt that much of a boon since there isnt many other targetd in a BA list you need that for.
For 180pts you get 10 DC or 2 5man assault marines with TH that are just flat out better in almost every scenario. LC isnt that much better than chain swords since you can easily get twice the attacks with chainswords.
I feel Deep Striking assaults get a huge boost from the Icon of the Angel special issue wargear paired with the Canticle of Hate litany (yes, I know it doesn't stack with Red Thirst, but +2 is better than +1). Deep striking terminators specifically, as they're coming in on turn 2 or 3, which allows the chaplain to get into position.
Either way, the Icon of the Angel on it's own will really help Blood Angels get off some charges without relying on 2 command points for Decent, which is huge.
I like the icon too and probably best choice is the sang priest with jump pack.
If I'm reading this right we get only 3 relics.
So angel's wing for the smash cpt.
2nd well my go to has been standard of sacrifice on my SG ancient warlord.
3rd.. this gets more tricky, veritas vitae, icon of the angel, quake bolts all could prove handy. Quake bolt hit before slamming a SG or DC/van vets with thunder hammers improves the damage out put greatly. Hard decisions. Wonder why they didn't give us the same relic strat ad vanillas. Well can't get em all..
Martel732 wrote: It has nothing to do with my skill or your skill. T4 1w doesnt get far in 8th. 18 pts for t4 w1 no ap and melee focus is still not very good.
They don't need 50% screens. Usually the whole problem is that a handful of points is preventing assault from very expensive ba units.
I think DC are best used as an early CC threat with Forlorn Fury to get them up the board if you go first. Throw them into your opponent's gunline turn 1 and make them deal with them. They'll die, but shouldn't do so until your opponent's turn, reducing the firepower coming back at the rest of your army. If you go second, hide them or Deep Strike them. 18 points for a 4 attack guy with +1 to wound and a Jump Pack isn't bad at all. I still think they're maybe 1-2 points overcosted because they're still a bit too easy to kill, but DC are best used as a throwaway unit who can cause a lot of destruction and disruption in the enemy lines. They're not a premier assault unit by any means and won't be single-handedly winning the game by smashing everything in the enemy army but they definitely have their place.
More generally, I think the BA super doctrine is pretty sub-par and a trap and you shouldn't build around using it. It's nice, but more as a bonus when it works rather than as the focus of the army. The problem is that Assault Doctrine takes 3 turns to turn on and by that time you may have already given up too much of the initiative if you're keeping all your assault units back to benefit from Savage Echoes. 40k games are often decided on turn 3, if not earlier, so you need to be able to make an impact earlier than that. I think it provides a decent boost for Sanguinary Guard as they need to be able to put out more attacks to be effective, but for units like DC that already get loads of attacks I don't think it's as important.
They're not priced like a throwaway unit. That's the problem. Especially once hammers start entering the conversation.
We play on nice terrain heavy boards so that might be colouring my opinion but they always do work. Forlorn fury turn one, either puts you up in their face for a first turn charge or places them in cover mid table to make the opponent deal with them. With the cover bonus and now Transhuman Phys and Refusal to die a big blob of them is hard to shift, nothing does it super efficiently. Even a few left alive usually means alot of chainsword attacks for chaff clearing and the single thunderhammer can put a dent into whatever you want.
If you're worried about screens bring more stuff to clear them, our units have fly making them alot harder to screen against, whirlwinds aren't bad and basic bolters can get the job done as needed. You don't need to clear everything, just target a specific unit that is occupying where you want to go then head in and try to trap something. Punish them for giving you units to hug.
Good players screen against fly easily. I think you are dumping way too many resources into 1 W models that have to punch what you opponent lets them punch.
Xirax wrote: I like the icon too and probably best choice is the sang priest with jump pack.
If I'm reading this right we get only 3 relics.
So angel's wing for the smash cpt.
2nd well my go to has been standard of sacrifice on my SG ancient warlord.
3rd.. this gets more tricky, veritas vitae, icon of the angel, quake bolts all could prove handy. Quake bolt hit before slamming a SG or DC/van vets with thunder hammers improves the damage out put greatly. Hard decisions. Wonder why they didn't give us the same relic strat ad vanillas. Well can't get em all..
I plan on running an Inquisitor for some of the support he/she provides. If you want, you can run an Ordo Xenos inquisitor for 55pts who has a Warlord Trait that regen's CP on a 5+ when your opponent uses a strat, and he can also cast Terrify, which keeps an enemy unit from firing overwatch. Win/win.
Hey guys getting back into Blood angels which i havent done in years. I was wondering if primaris are worth getting, I like the bigger marines but they all seem super limited on their war gear options and with the new book coming out we get primaris death company. Im not like super sold on a whole primaris army but like I think their neat.
Any merit to running BA as soup in a john Lennon style list replacing the white scars? Our 4D smash captains are great counters to centurions and the IH spearhead provides tfc's with the good stratagems and some untargetable lascannons. I need to point it out but it sounds good in my head.
Luthon1234 wrote: Hey guys getting back into Blood angels which i havent done in years. I was wondering if primaris are worth getting, I like the bigger marines but they all seem super limited on their war gear options and with the new book coming out we get primaris death company. Im not like super sold on a whole primaris army but like I think their neat.
Definitely. Once you get used to not having mixed weapons in your squads, they work really well. Basic Intercessors are only 5 points more than a Tactical Marine but get twice as many wounds and attacks, an extra 6" range and Ap-1 on their bolter. Point-for-point, they are very efficient Troops.
Scouts have always been fun for Blood Angels but Incursors and Eliminators give them a run for their money. Incursors have 2 wounds and a 3+ save but are still Troops and can infiltrate just as well as Scouts. With 2 attacks each, it is like having bolter and ccw Scouts rolled into one package. Eliminators are great snipers although they are Heavy rather than Troops.
I really love Inceptors. Maybe it is just because Jump infantry and fluffy for BAs but they get a metric ton of firepower on a platform that can keep pace with our assault units. They have recently received an extra wound and now that we get Doctrines, the bolter Inceptors are Ap-2 while the Tactical Doctrine is active despite still being cheap as chips.
I have no intention of building a pure Primaris BA army but there is definitely scope for several of their units to act as line infantry or fire support while our more iconic units like Sanguinary Guard or Death Company act as a spear-tip and go for the enemy's heart.
Khornatedemon wrote: Any merit to running BA as soup in a john Lennon style list replacing the white scars? Our 4D smash captains are great counters to centurions and the IH spearhead provides tfc's with the good stratagems and some untargetable lascannons. I need to point it out but it sounds good in my head.
Primaris units are very aggressively costed for there basic profile and weapons, in pure numbers they are just better than traditional marines.
That said they do have quite a few weaknesses. Firstly, as mentioned, they have no upgrade options (other than intercessor srg) meaning no special weapons and importantly for BA, no combat weapons. This lack of upgrades also means that when they lose a model they are losing an important model with them all being the same, no keeping the special/heavy weapon alive till last.
The biggest bonus for primaris is their extra wound, against small arms fire it literally doubles their durability for not many points but... against multi damage weaponry those points are just wasted. Depending on your opponents this will come up alot or not very often. I play against dark eldar regularly and they pack alot of D2 weapons making primaris a waste.
Khornatedemon wrote: Any merit to running BA as soup in a john Lennon style list replacing the white scars? Our 4D smash captains are great counters to centurions and the IH spearhead provides tfc's with the good stratagems and some untargetable lascannons. I need to point it out but it sounds good in my head.
Primaris units are very aggressively costed for there basic profile and weapons, in pure numbers they are just better than traditional marines.
That said they do have quite a few weaknesses. Firstly, as mentioned, they have no upgrade options (other than intercessor srg) meaning no special weapons and importantly for BA, no combat weapons. This lack of upgrades also means that when they lose a model they are losing an important model with them all being the same, no keeping the special/heavy weapon alive till last.
The biggest bonus for primaris is their extra wound, against small arms fire it literally doubles their durability for not many points but... against multi damage weaponry those points are just wasted. Depending on your opponents this will come up alot or not very often. I play against dark eldar regularly and they pack alot of D2 weapons making primaris a waste.
Would Blood Angels Reivers be worth looking at? Lots and lots of attacks, wounding easier than most with chainswords, able to be sling-shot'ed across the field by a Phobos Librarian, etc?
Would Blood Angels Reivers be worth looking at? Lots and lots of attacks, wounding easier than most with chainswords, able to be sling-shot'ed across the field by a Phobos Librarian, etc?
I don't believe so.
The slingshot doesn't give them anything great when it comes to moving.
Sanguinary Guard move the same without a spell and hit much much harder.
Even DC Primaris Intercessors serve a better purpose as they have the attacks and can still be useful shooting on the approach.
Sad to say but Reivers are just outclassed by most things..
Khornatedemon wrote: Any merit to running BA as soup in a john Lennon style list replacing the white scars? Our 4D smash captains are great counters to centurions and the IH spearhead provides tfc's with the good stratagems and some untargetable lascannons. I need to point it out but it sounds good in my head.
Primaris units are very aggressively costed for there basic profile and weapons, in pure numbers they are just better than traditional marines.
That said they do have quite a few weaknesses. Firstly, as mentioned, they have no upgrade options (other than intercessor srg) meaning no special weapons and importantly for BA, no combat weapons. This lack of upgrades also means that when they lose a model they are losing an important model with them all being the same, no keeping the special/heavy weapon alive till last.
The biggest bonus for primaris is their extra wound, against small arms fire it literally doubles their durability for not many points but... against multi damage weaponry those points are just wasted. Depending on your opponents this will come up alot or not very often. I play against dark eldar regularly and they pack alot of D2 weapons making primaris a waste.
Was this meant for someone else?
Sorry was ment for the post above yours, clicked the wrong quote button
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Would Blood Angels Reivers be worth looking at? Lots and lots of attacks, wounding easier than most with chainswords, able to be sling-shot'ed across the field by a Phobos Librarian, etc?
Reivers are just a pretty useless unit, in an all primaris army they may serve a small purpose as they can DS in but in a standard BA force they are just alot worse at any job you give them than the many similar units we have.
bullyboy wrote: haven't been keeping up on this but did the BA get access to Masters of the Chapter?
Nope, not yet atleast. Mephy and Astorath have the keywords for those. Sad day for successor chapter builds. I just got my copy of chapter approved. Interesting..
For example.. dreadnought CCW is 20, but furioso fist is 30/40 single/pair. Ok.. it gives rerolls if two, but librarian dreadnought or fragioso armed furioso don't benefit from doubles nor the librarian dread can even take them even if wanted.
Don't think furioso's would have gained playtime even with the 10p drop. Fragioso is 124p with HF. Also DC dread with talons is 105p without ranged weaponry. A missed chance for our dreads become valid. Also sad that our baal pred is still unplayable in terms of points vs. Assback. Baal hull is 5p more expensive than regular pred hull.. huoh.
I find it quite glorious that, when buffed by a couple of characters, even a squad of Intercessors can become a pretty killy melee unit. How it should be!
Are Primaris DC worth using do you guys think? I’m grabbing another box of 10 Intercessors and I can’t decide whether to add them to a couple of my 5 man units or make them a big squad of DC.
I'm looking into getting into BA after their physic awakening book drops. I've never played Marines so i don't have anything, but I am interesting in running a decent amount of Primaris.
Stus67 wrote: I'm looking into getting into BA after their physic awakening book drops. I've never played Marines so i don't have anything, but I am interesting in running a decent amount of Primaris.
Any tips on what I should buy or what to run?
What is your meta? What kinda games you play, casual or competitive?
Stus67 wrote: I'm looking into getting into BA after their physic awakening book drops. I've never played Marines so i don't have anything, but I am interesting in running a decent amount of Primaris.
Any tips on what I should buy or what to run?
What is your meta? What kinda games you play, casual or competitive?
Competitive usually. Most of my friends play Space Marines (Ultra, IH, and IF), and I play Guard or Knights. It's not a hyper competitive meta, but we're pretty far from casual play. I just don't want to drop money on things I think might be useful, only to find out they aren't.
Blood angels are probably the worst chapter if you want to focus on primaris. Primaris right now are mainly ranged focus and BA have 0 buffs for ranged units and almost everything is about CC.
Take any primaris BA list and then just change it to any of the codex chapters and it will be better. Not kidding at all. Like you could have a mediocre BA primaris focused list and by just changing the chapter to IF or IH successor or any successor for that matter and you might actually have a good list that will crush the BA equivalent list if they are 100% the same models and points.
Reivers are really bad and DC intercessors wont see competetive play at all since they are elites and we cant DS/infiltrate/outflank them like RG/WS so no reason to take over normal intercessors that are troops. Kind of the same with agressors since we only have movement stuff centered around jump packs so they are just to slow and have 0 synergy with the rest of the army. BA is all about those Jump Packs on old marines.
Oh right. New mephiston and Invictors are Primaris but wouldnt say thats enoughm
I’m not particularly a competitive player, but Primaris seem pretty able in melee with some characters backing them up. Then again, I’m converting a lot of old marine characters with Stormcast from Sigmar to look like Primaris and using them with them, so that probably helps. But if you take a Veteran Intercessors unit and back it up with a Sang Priest and Sang Ancient, or Librarian or whatever, they’re pretty damn pokey in melee considering they’re just a troop choice.
Though I do agree that the other chapters will most likely do better in competitive simply because their bonuses are granted sooner and gunlines pretty much always lol at melee.
They are good in melee against other troops and other weaker units but they are slow and lack enough hard hitting weapons that they just stop against the more dedicated melee units.
Great for having a durable backline that arent easy to shift from objectives etc but you arent gonna move them 6" a turn across the battlefield and beat your enemies to death in melee.
I ran a RG successor list with 3 ten man intercessors with TH. They worked really well when I was aggressive with them but I could deploy them 9" away or deepstrike them so they could get up close without problem. BA cant do that while RG and WS can.
I see people saying Incursors can be great in BA since with enough support you get a ton of ap 1 attacks turn 3 or later... Like anything in our army can hit well at that point and you get almost twice the attacks in melee if you take scouts and they can even have melee weapons on the sergeant...
I dunno...Blood Angels can do things other marine chapters just cannot.
For example, a unit of 6 Plasma Inceptors and Astorath could deploy on the board out of line of sight. At the beginning of turn 1, Astorath uses Recitation of Focus (+1 to hit when shooting) on the Plasma Inceptors, after which, they Upon Wings of Fire to an advantageous spot on the board in order to unload 24ish totally safe overcharged plasma shots on an enemy unit.
If you want to get crazy, you could land a Drop Pod (gasp) with a Company Ancient holding the FnP banner, a Captain for rerolls, a Chaplain for 2nd turn use, and whatever heck else you feel like throwing in there near the Inceptors landing zone to really give yourself a spot to set up your eventual turn 2 or 3 Sanguinary Guard charges.
Meanwhile, whatever Primaris or normal units you have advancing up the table will most likely be ignored as your opponent dumps much of his fire (remember FnP banner) into removing the 6 Plasma Inceptors that just vaporized something he cherished. That is, if you didn't decide to just have them charge something in order to lock themselves in combat...
Regardless, Blood Angels have tricks, and they don't all revolve around hitting people in the face.
I didn't plan on running any primaris DC, since the current jump pack DC look pretty dope as is, but rather bog standard intercessors for the troops choices. Although I am looking at Scouts to fill that role too. I'm more curious about tings like Sanguinary Guard, or the dreadnaught variants. I'm taking Mephiston regardless, since I love the new primaris model, but I don't know what characters to grab past that.
Keep in mind I literally own nothing Space Marine related, so I'm buying everything from scratch.
Stus67 wrote: I didn't plan on running any primaris DC, since the current jump pack DC look pretty dope as is, but rather bog standard intercessors for the troops choices. Although I am looking at Scouts to fill that role too. I'm more curious about tings like Sanguinary Guard, or the dreadnaught variants. I'm taking Mephiston regardless, since I love the new primaris model, but I don't know what characters to grab past that.
I run a mix of Intercessors and Scouts as Troops and I can confirm they work very well. Intercessors hold backfield Objectives and plink away with long ranged bolt rifles (twice as good as they used to be thanks to Bolter Discipline) while the Scouts deploy in the midfield and either screen against aggressive enemy or charge early to clear chaff out of the way of my good assault units. I may add a couple of units of Incursors to the mix as they combine the benefits of Scouts and Intercessors. Blood Angels tend to need a lot of CPs to really shine so I would recommend 6 5-man Troop squads so you can run 2 Battalions.
DC do look very nice. If you are planning to run DC, I recommend taking Lemartes. He gives DC rerolls to charge and to hit in addition to any Litanies he chants. Plus he is a pretty solid beat-stick character in his own right.
Sanguinary Guard are lovely but quite expensive to field. I normally only run one of Death Company or Sanguinary Guard unless I am playing 2000 points and above. They are best reinforced by a Sanguinary Ancient with the Standard of Sacrifice and the Sanguinor if you can afford him. A Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack (now a valid Codex option again thanks to Blood of Baal) is also really good here for +1 Strength and healing injured models.
Our Dreadoughts are rather overpriced for what they bring. The Librarian Dreadnought is really good but don't run him in the same list as Mephiston since they want to be using the same powers (Wings of Sanguinius and Quickening) to get into melee quickly. Of the two, I normally prefer Mephiston since he knows a 3rd power (I normally take Unleash Rage). And the new Mephiston model is sweeeeet!
The other HQ that literally every Blood Angels player takes is Captain Smash. This is a Captain with the following upgrades:
Death Visions of Sanguinius (turns him into a Death Company character)
Thunder Hammer and Stormshield (for hitting power and survivability).
Artisan of War Warlord trait. Gives his Thunder Hammer a flat 4 damage. This guy can kill a Knight by himself on the charge with a few good rolls.
That covers your Troops, HQs and melee, the other thing you need is some fire support. Devastators, Eliminators and Inceptors all do pretty well in this role so it is just a case of choosing which squads and weapons you want to spend your remaining points on.
DC do look very nice. If you are planning to run DC, I recommend taking Lemartes. He gives DC rerolls to charge and to hit in addition to any Litanies he chants. Plus he is a pretty solid beat-stick character in his own right.
Astorath is the beat stick you want. He can give any squad a reroll to hit, once per game +1 to hit, knows more Litanies and is a beat stick and a half. He buffs himself to do d3+1 damage and on 5+ does a flat 4. He's like a smash captain that buffs everyone.
Sanguinary Guard are lovely but quite expensive to field. I normally only run one of Death Company or Sanguinary Guard unless I am playing 2000 points and above. They are best reinforced by a Sanguinary Ancient with the Standard of Sacrifice and the Sanguinor if you can afford him. A Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack (now a valid Codex option again thanks to Blood of Baal) is also really good here for +1 Strength and healing injured models.
Sanguinary got a lovely points decrease and I love these guys. Rocking a 2+ 5+++ make them survivable. You can DS, Charge up the board or Upon wings of fire.
The other HQ that literally every Blood Angels player takes is Captain Smash. This is a Captain with the following upgrades:
Death Visions of Sanguinius (turns him into a Death Company character)
Thunder Hammer and Stormshield (for hitting power and survivability).
Artisan of War Warlord trait. Gives his Thunder Hammer a flat 4 damage. This guy can kill a Knight by himself on the charge with a few good rolls.
Lastly you need the relic to ignore overwatch and reroll charges. Smash captains don't cost points they cost CP. Enjoy spending all of your CP on this guy. However when he smacks over 1 or 2 really big things it's a magically sight to behold.
The thing I'm struggling to remember is your auras and buffs on buffs. My last game I had so many going it was hard to keep track.
Anyone got some cool tokens they've made up to remind themselves?
Loving all the new blood of Baal stuff but one thing that they missed on was relic melee weapons.
Compared to more or less any other faction we have a woeful selection of relic weapon options, especially given the close combat focus of our chapter.
Codex options:
Hammer of Baal - A thunderhammer with no neg to hit, not awful and likely the best of the bunch but you will nearly always up a normal hammer to Dam4 instead.
Archangels shard - A situationally slightly better powersword, but only vey situationally and very slightly better. Just awful.
Gallians staff - a standard force staff with a +1 to cast smite, ok I guess if you really want to cast smite.
BOB options:
New Crosius - an extra AP and gives a LD debuff, urrggg
Master crafted weapon - this is easily the best of the bunch but is pure generic and whilst powerful isn't anything to get excited about.
DOn't get me wrong, we have some really great and interesting relics but no decent relic weapons. Its especially bad given we have various models that have locked wargear. What I wouldn't give for a relic chainsword half as good as teeth of terra (which is admittedly a bit too good).
What do others think, have I missed something in my weapon assessment?
They did miss on more things. The baal predator is still the most useless tank in the entire imperium. Its expensive, has short range flamers, has a stratagem which allows it to advance D6+6", but then it cant fire its short range flamers (which would be in range), because they are heavy weapons The terminator captain is still useless as well. And guess what, both models are in the new BA battleforce box
Our biggest problem is that our only ignore overwatch ability is on a relic so our melee relics dont really matter since getting there alive is most important. And most of our other characters are named or a dreadnought so cant take relics either.
Wish we could have gotten an extra trait or psychic power to deny overwatch. We only have 1 good warlord trait and its useless against armies that dont have 4w or 10w+ models. If we didnt have to get that relic first due to having deny overwatch as a WL trait I would take hammer of baal sometimes.
Whilst I agree that our WL traits are a bit naff there are a couple of OKish ones. Heroic Intervention 6" is useful as is the 6+ FNP that stacks with black rage.
Our special characters are good but have generally bad WL traits and do restrict who can have relics, I usually end up with the standard on either a Sang or Termy ancient and perhaps the regen CP or new reroll charges one on a sang priest.
What do you guys think about running Incursors over scouts? They're more expensive, but they're more durable, ignore modifiers, and have better melee for that 9" turn 1 charge against screens.
What do you who play more competitive games think, can you use a pure Blood Angels list without proper heavy support. My list drafts seem to be be dual batallion with vanguard and occasional heavy/assbacks. Can we endure the first turn without long range firepower and try to smash things and hoard the board with troops. I'm troubled if we can bypass heavy section with our punchy SG/DC/smash cpt/smash other characters like Astaroth/Mephiston.
I'll definitely give a go for dual battalion + SG ancient, SG, DC, but I if more comp list show up, I'll just lose. What's your take?
In my understanding the current (SM)meta is very devastator centric, it would mean atleast some eliminators.. With the points drops all aroud in my gaming area we are settling to 1,5k points margin. I need the damn CP, so dual battalion feels a must and after that, it's not much more you can bring unless you skip primaris troops as a whole.
What do you who play more competitive games think, can you use a pure Blood Angels list without proper heavy support. My list drafts seem to be be dual batallion with vanguard and occasional heavy/assbacks. Can we endure the first turn without long range firepower and try to smash things and hoard the board with troops. I'm troubled if we can bypass heavy section with our punchy SG/DC/smash cpt/smash other characters like Astaroth/Mephiston.
I'll definitely give a go for dual battalion + SG ancient, SG, DC, but I if more comp list show up, I'll just lose. What's your take?
In my understanding the current (SM)meta is very devastator centric, it would mean atleast some eliminators.. With the points drops all aroud in my gaming area we are settling to 1,5k points margin. I need the damn CP, so dual battalion feels a must and after that, it's not much more you can bring unless you skip primaris troops as a whole.
Pure BA don't do heavy support well, I think you have three general options.
1: Pure BA, screw taking any long range firepower and commit to an alpha and a beta strike planning for one to work and if both do you are golden.
2. Pure BA, use an alpha or a beta strike (first turn depending) and go with some light long range support options that can clear screens from safety. Whirlwinds aren't great but can do this job as can various forgeworld options.
3. If you want some proper heavy support then bring in some specialists, take a contingent of BA for drop assault and then take some Imperial fists or other marines who gain decent bonuses with long ranged guns.
I think option 3 is the most competitive is that your main goal. A big block of Sang guard with character support backed up by either Imperial fist thunderfire cannons or Iron hands character dreads (perhaps both) will get the job done.
Loading up on heavy support and facing a gun line have mostly been my 500-700pts shoot at their 2000pts and kill 200pts of stuff and then their whole army shoots and wipe out my heavy support since I didnt hide it unlike the rest of my guys who are waiting for reinforcements from the skies.
If lucky I wound some tanks or units but whats the point if I have to finish it off in melee anyway. So much wish we had access to tfcs to help remove screens.
We kill tough stuff effectively in CC and should focus on that. Trying to make up a weakness, lack of range firepower, with something we are weak with isnt gonna work.
But a detachment with ignore cover/Master Artisan TFCs and eliminators to handle screens and annoying characters until we can get our guys in melee I think is gonna be the strongest way to build a primarily BA force. Gonna try that out and have them be RG successor and run a phobos Librarian or JP librarian who can cast the deny overwatch and - 1 to hit power on the enemy or if 0 another melee army get might of heroes, null zone or tenebreous curse. Would really help with covering up our weaknesses
I know it's very occasional when you get the first turn, but killshot and devastator doctrine with your smash captain waiting to get UWoF might be our best mono shooting. But for sure IH techmarine, executioner/redemptors more comp for sure.
I'll try a dakka pred, autocannon & las and quad las triplets and see how they'll fare. Even the dakka version clocking at 145p throw 2d3 flat 4 damage shots Ap-2 and +1 to wound with 6 heavy bolter shots -2ap flat 2 damage. Should do some serious damage on a primaris unit.
Lmao that's great on the dakka preds. I dont have any for blood angels but have had a lot of success with wolves when I used that strat. 3 predators and 3 vindicators start on the table... which are you going to shoot at?
Stus67 wrote: What do you guys think about running Incursors over scouts? They're more expensive, but they're more durable, ignore modifiers, and have better melee for that 9" turn 1 charge against screens.
I haven't tried them yet but I really like the look of Incursors. They are not a powerhouse unit but they are Troops, are under 100 points for a 5-man unit and they are pretty decent at both shooting and melee for the points. I definitely plan to get a couple of squads to try out.
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Xirax wrote: What do you who play more competitive games think, can you use a pure Blood Angels list without proper heavy support. My list drafts seem to be be dual batallion with vanguard and occasional heavy/assbacks. Can we endure the first turn without long range firepower and try to smash things and hoard the board with troops.
I have found BAs to do very well with pure-infantry lists. This has the handy advantage of denying my opponent good targets for his anti-tank weapons. For this reason I tend to rely on infantry-heavy weapons. I normally run a Dev squad and some Plasma Inceptors. They can be a bit squishy but they tend to last well as people get distracted by the DC/SG and assorted beatstick characters hurtling towards their lines.
Phobos units also provide some options. Eliminators with Las Fusils actually out-perform Lascannon Devs point-for-point on anti-tank. Give the Sergent the cheap bolter and then he can buff your Las Fusil shots and the whole squad can retreat if they get charged. It makes them surprisingly effective at screening. The other interesting option is the new Invictor warsuit. Technically this breaks my "no-vehicle" policy. But dumping a T6 redemptor with a super heavy flamer 9" from my opponent's lines makes for a very tasty distraction-carnifex and if it survives, it can certainly punch hard-enough to kill dangerous targets.
One thing I have been incredibly excited about since BA got doctrines, is Missile Launcher Devs again.
When I was playing more often, my three Dev squads with three Missile Launchers and a Cherub around a Company Ancient with our relic banner has done absolute work for me. The added AP on the Frag and Krak profiles in Devastator Doctrine makes me even happier to field them.
My biggest issue to delivering my melee units has been chaff, and while the number of shots can be somewhat unreliable, Frag Missiles with AP-1 will be great for breaking open screens from 48" away.
Really interested to see how my Brigade plays next time I field them.
Devs + Ancient with Relic Banner are quite nice. You can buff further with both Captain and Lt but now also with Chaplain Litanies (another rule we have picked up).
Took Astorath and another chaplain in a game last night and proceeded to fail the 3+ Litany roll any time it actually mattered. Chaplains may be too unreliable to plan around...
Astorath has it's uses even without succesful litany and you get to try them before you uwof him or drop your dc your DC or such on the table. But yeah, 1's do happen (in this case 2's too..)
I'm yet to try out the triple dakka pred killshot, but other stuff is dual bat with some incursors to boobytrap central objectives, cot smash, mephy, astorath, SG, SG ancient and jumpy DC. For fourth HQ I'm thinking between jumpy hammer lieutenant to reroll those ones for T1, jumpy sang priest and lib dread. Well needs actual play.
Voidwraith wrote: Took Astorath and another chaplain in a game last night and proceeded to fail the 3+ Litany roll any time it actually mattered. Chaplains may be too unreliable to plan around...
I think Lemartes will still be the default option for anyone running DC as he still provides rerolls to charge and to hit (the crucial ones). Any litanies he gets off are a bonus. Mantra of Hate looksjuivy considering Lemmy's a pretty hardcore beatstick already.
Plan is to deploy scouts out of LOS as much as possible to protect the characters.
Whirlwinds and snipers for screen clearing and character hunting.
Two melee bricks, I've enough CP to send them both in early as needed.
The characters generally move as a block other than the ancient (warlord) who sticks with the SG and Lemartes who stay with the DC.
It let's me use my two favourite units and all the lovely characters BA have got access to. We play on nice terrain heavy boards most of the time, I understand this would very much struggle going second on a sparse board.
The scout are really key to how the list works. They set up mid table and (hopefully out of LOS) and thus protect all the characters for fire by being the closest models.
Also they are the cheapest, I've gone for double battalion purely for the CP to fuel the rest of the list, if the scouts can pull off a juicy first turn charge then great but they are just really there as bullet catchers.
Infiltrators and Incursers could do similar jobs but for double the points, they are harder to remove but not hugely so and would be a waste here I think.
Karhedron wrote:Maybe replace the Chaplain Dread with 3 single attack bikes and you can turn this into a Brigade for even more juicy CPs.
Hobby Hammer wrote:You'd be losing an untargetable twin las cannon to gain one CP, I don't think that's worth it.
This list mainly relies on combat to deal with bigger threats but the chaplain dread let's me reach out and put a couple of reliable hits on something if I really need to. Plus hes a monster in combat and I can use the reroll 1s nearby strat to help out my other back field units.
Martel732 wrote: I find scouts to be a poor value for 11 pts. Not all tables have places to hide, but just cover.
Sounds that the area you are playing in isnt using enough terrain. In which case BA isnt gonna be doing well anyway if pure gunlines are guaranteed to get los on everything from the start. Then its all about having the best gunline.
I think scouts are our best troops just because they are the cheapest. I mainly field only 3 scout squads and 3 intercessors squads to have some variety and think it looks and feels cooler than pure scouts and they arent much worse. I would never go 0 scouts but can and do make lists with 0 non scout troops.
Babar_babar wrote: What do you guys think about the Sanguinor, whit the new improvements and at 130p I am tempted to add it to my force
I'm painting mine up as I type, had it since the model was released :-)
I think that he's come down in points enough to make him a good choice, My issue was always that he didn't do enough damage himself for his points compared to a smash captain but hes now cheaper than a smash captain, has an amazing aura and their are a couple of extra strats that work well with him now.
My FLGS's rep didn't have his crap together, so I haven't been able to pick up my copy of Blood of Baal as of yet, so...question:
Can a Librarian Dreadnought take the Adamantine Mantle special issue wargear? A libby dread running/flying around with a 5+ FnP on top of having the new 1/2 damage strat feels pretty amazing.
I'm having a really hard time deciding which HQs to take...so many good options.
Am I the only one thinking that the points nerf for inferno pistols up to 9 points is quite hilarious.
About scouts.. two squads are same as infiltrators and 10 models create a bigger anti-DS bubble to your backline than infiltrators. They can be charged for sure, but as area denial usage I prefer scouts.
I was wondering how the Vanguard Marines might work in a BA list. Much hardier than Scouts, but still able to give us a bit of board control til the close assault guys dive in. How are they at clearing chaff and would a Start Collecting box be worthwhile? I'm also kinda keen on giving the sneaky dreadNot a try, just as something to get stuck in straight away.
Thinking we could just send wave after wave of guys at enemies, tying them up and whittling them down until the 3rd turn where theres a big surge and absolute carnage.
Martel732 wrote: I find scouts to be a poor value for 11 pts. Not all tables have places to hide, but just cover.
Sounds that the area you are playing in isnt using enough terrain. In which case BA isnt gonna be doing well anyway if pure gunlines are guaranteed to get los on everything from the start. Then its all about having the best gunline.
I think scouts are our best troops just because they are the cheapest. I mainly field only 3 scout squads and 3 intercessors squads to have some variety and think it looks and feels cooler than pure scouts and they arent much worse. I would never go 0 scouts but can and do make lists with 0 non scout troops.
Not all terrain is LOS blocking. I frequently play on boards filled with terrain, but not much LOS blocking. That's a legitimate set up.
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craggy wrote: I was wondering how the Vanguard Marines might work in a BA list. Much hardier than Scouts, but still able to give us a bit of board control til the close assault guys dive in. How are they at clearing chaff and would a Start Collecting box be worthwhile? I'm also kinda keen on giving the sneaky dreadNot a try, just as something to get stuck in straight away.
Thinking we could just send wave after wave of guys at enemies, tying them up and whittling them down until the 3rd turn where theres a big surge and absolute carnage.
I don't like paying 11 pts for a 4+, so I think there is definitely value there.
After playing a few games with Incursors and Scouts together I think they both definitely have their place and value, but I'm thinking that the Phobos bois get you more bang for your buck in pure BA since I'm not really looking for the cheapest battalions. Incursors holding the front lines and getting off early charges have given me better chaff clearing results than Scouts doing the same thing, and they're way more annoying for my opponent to remove after. Popping transhuman on a squad of them is hilarious when they're in the middle of my opponent's army.
I haven't played with Infiltrators yet, but I think basic Intercessors or Scouts do their job of mid-field objective holding better.
Voidwraith wrote:My FLGS's rep didn't have his crap together, so I haven't been able to pick up my copy of Blood of Baal as of yet, so...question:
Can a Librarian Dreadnought take the Adamantine Mantle special issue wargear? A libby dread running/flying around with a 5+ FnP on top of having the new 1/2 damage strat feels pretty amazing.
I'm having a really hard time deciding which HQs to take...so many good options.
I'm afraid you can't give the mantle or any of the special issue wargear to a libby dread, it specifically calls out that they cannot be given to vehicles.
On the troop conversation, the new phobos marines are certainly tougher but cost twice as much. They give better firepower but now twice the firepower (if the scouts have bolters) and certainly don't fight better than two scouts. Lastly scouts make it easier to fill up detachment slots thus give more CP which we really need.
The new primaris all have their place, intercessors especially, but I think the scouts are still the top troop option overall.
I'm afraid you can't give the mantle or any of the special issue wargear to a libby dread, it specifically calls out that they cannot be given to vehicles.
On the troop conversation, the new phobos marines are certainly tougher but cost twice as much. They give better firepower but now twice the firepower (if the scouts have bolters) and certainly don't fight better than two scouts. Lastly scouts make it easier to fill up detachment slots thus give more CP which we really need.
The new primaris all have their place, intercessors especially, but I think the scouts are still the top troop option overall.
It all comes down to what you need the troops to do. For forward deployed lads, Scouts are offensive, Incursors are defensive, and Infiltrators are there to feth with deep strikers.
Voidwraith wrote:My FLGS's rep didn't have his crap together, so I haven't been able to pick up my copy of Blood of Baal as of yet, so...question:
Can a Librarian Dreadnought take the Adamantine Mantle special issue wargear? A libby dread running/flying around with a 5+ FnP on top of having the new 1/2 damage strat feels pretty amazing.
I'm having a really hard time deciding which HQs to take...so many good options.
I'm afraid you can't give the mantle or any of the special issue wargear to a libby dread, it specifically calls out that they cannot be given to vehicles.
Thanks. Keeps me from thinking about this all day until I get my copy of the book tonight.
I'm afraid you can't give the mantle or any of the special issue wargear to a libby dread, it specifically calls out that they cannot be given to vehicles.
On the troop conversation, the new phobos marines are certainly tougher but cost twice as much. They give better firepower but now twice the firepower (if the scouts have bolters) and certainly don't fight better than two scouts. Lastly scouts make it easier to fill up detachment slots thus give more CP which we really need.
The new primaris all have their place, intercessors especially, but I think the scouts are still the top troop option overall.
It all comes down to what you need the troops to do. For forward deployed lads, Scouts are offensive, Incursors are defensive, and Infiltrators are there to feth with deep strikers.
I would say Incursors are definitely more offensive than they are defensive, but I guess you could play them as both. Infiltrators are too expensive for just a deepstrike denial.
I would say Incursors are definitely more offensive than they are defensive, but I guess you could play them as both. Infiltrators are too expensive for just a deepstrike denial.
Not compared to Scouts. Point for point the latter kill waaaaaaaay more. You take Incursors if you want to hold a point long enough for your main line to move up in support.
Infiltrators have hands down the best deepstrike denial in the game, and hard counter armies like Tyranids or GSC trying to do close-in deepstrike shenanigans.
I would say Incursors are definitely more offensive than they are defensive, but I guess you could play them as both. Infiltrators are too expensive for just a deepstrike denial.
Not compared to Scouts. Point for point the latter kill waaaaaaaay more. You take Incursors if you want to hold a point long enough for your main line to move up in support.
Infiltrators have hands down the best deepstrike denial in the game, and hard counter armies like Tyranids or GSC trying to do close-in deepstrike shenanigans.
My last opponent was very bummed out that I had infiltrators on the board when he was trying to place his Calidus Assassin.
I was thinking of running base marines as my troop choices for blood Angel's, they may not be the most "point efficient " unit but they can go in drop pods which protects them until you place them in double tap range t1 ot t2 (t2 preferred, t1 if needed). I am just tired of seeing scouts in my lists and primaris are just too slow / expensive for what they would be doing in an alpha assault style force. And I was taking a drop pod anyways, easiest way to get the sanguinary priest up within range of the t1 death company assault squad, otherwise it would have to wait until t2. It seems to me at least that blood Angel's want to be in your face t1.
Azuza001 wrote: I was thinking of running base marines as my troop choices for blood Angel's, they may not be the most "point efficient " unit but they can go in drop pods which protects them until you place them in double tap range t1 ot t2 (t2 preferred, t1 if needed). I am just tired of seeing scouts in my lists and primaris are just too slow / expensive for what they would be doing in an alpha assault style force. And I was taking a drop pod anyways, easiest way to get the sanguinary priest up within range of the t1 death company assault squad, otherwise it would have to wait until t2. It seems to me at least that blood Angel's want to be in your face t1.
End of the day, as much as we like the stabby stabby, we're still marines with lots of decent dakka. I'd definitely think to take advantage of that.
Babar_babar wrote: What would be your go to smaslibby post PA3, Dread or Mephiston?
There is no clear answer (which is good) but I lean towards mephiston.
The main advantage of the dread is that it does a flat 3 damage, which is a good advantage. Mephi puts out a couple more attacks but of less power.
Resilience wise the dread has a little more T and wounds which is good but mephi has a batter save, FNP 5+++ and importantly can claim cover easier and is small thus easier to hide behind LOS blocking if needed.
They can both cast 2, mephi can deny one more and knows one more - definitely winning here..... but the dread can have the new relic to give him re-rolls and extra range which is very good.
Personally I prefer mephi's defensive profile and the INFANTRY keyword is alot more useful than being a VEHICLE. I don't want to spend a relic slot on the dread to make him a better psycher, we have too many other good relics to take. He's worse in combat against high wound targets but I have other options for that and he's better against smaller things.
Klickor wrote: Our biggest problem is that our only ignore overwatch ability is on a relic so our melee relics dont really matter since getting there alive is most important. And most of our other characters are named or a dreadnought so cant take relics either.
Wish we could have gotten an extra trait or psychic power to deny overwatch. We only have 1 good warlord trait and its useless against armies that dont have 4w or 10w+ models. If we didnt have to get that relic first due to having deny overwatch as a WL trait I would take hammer of baal sometimes.
Can take an Inquisitor for that in a psychic power if you want one that badly. :-) Doesn't even negate Doctrines or any of that jazz, these days.
Klickor wrote: Our biggest problem is that our only ignore overwatch ability is on a relic so our melee relics dont really matter since getting there alive is most important. And most of our other characters are named or a dreadnought so cant take relics either.
Wish we could have gotten an extra trait or psychic power to deny overwatch. We only have 1 good warlord trait and its useless against armies that dont have 4w or 10w+ models. If we didnt have to get that relic first due to having deny overwatch as a WL trait I would take hammer of baal sometimes.
Can take an Inquisitor for that in a psychic power if you want one that badly. :-) Doesn't even negate Doctrines or any of that jazz, these days.
Tried finding the rule for it but had a hard time doing it. Does the spell target the charging model or the target? Huge difference since its easy to buff from behind but having a model on foot keep up and debuff the enemy is much harder to get range and also way easier to deny.
The spell is terrify, easy to cast. You target an enemy unit they lose 1 ld and cant fire overwatch. The advantage is because it's an inquisitor you can put him in a vehicle like a drop pod and drop him in where you need him t1. Think it's an 18" range as well.
Azuza001 wrote: The spell is terrify, easy to cast. You target an enemy unit they lose 1 ld and cant fire overwatch. The advantage is because it's an inquisitor you can put him in a vehicle like a drop pod and drop him in where you need him t1. Think it's an 18" range as well.
Maybe. Might try it out but I have noting worth putting in a pod so doubling his price doesnt seem worth it though. 55pts and get a CP on opponents strats is worth a shot at least. With a good run move he might be able to get it off turn 1
You can always take an inquisitor in terminator armour.
He gets innate deepstrike, isnt to bad in combat with a thunderhammer and decent number of attacks, is quite hard to kill and can take a cheap psycannon.
WisdomLS wrote: You can always take an inquisitor in terminator armour.
He gets innate deepstrike, isnt to bad in combat with a thunderhammer and decent number of attacks, is quite hard to kill and can take a cheap psycannon.
But he is expensive and cant get cp farming trait. Dont need more mediocre beatsticks.
Should have been an Inquisitor inbetween the 2. Or at least make the terminator one generic and not forced to be malleus.
Weird decision.
So I hit upon something kinda fun we can do with Slamguinius Captains.
Normal Captain + Thunder Hammer shenanigans. I have opted to not run the storm shield since they just make a character that is basically a space marine shaped ICBM tac-nuke slightly more survivable. No need to improve the invulnerable save by 1 for the points jump especially after the thunder hammer point hike to bring BA back in line with the other space marine books.
Now, the fun part.
Make the captain a Hero of the Chapter and give him the Master Crafted trait, making his hammer +1 damage and a Chapter Relic, but not a Relic of Baal (As far as I can tell), and then give him the Artisan of War warlord trait for another +1 damage on the hammer, making it D:5 per swing. I believe there's another new strat that gives a weapon +1 damage on top of that for one phase. So you could, in theory, have a flat D:6 hammer for one round.
You could murder damn near anything he touches provided it doesn't have a 3++ or something but even then, any failed wounds would still hurt badly.
Personally, I prefer having the Angel's Wing in most instances, but this is a pretty cool option if you're looking for maximum smash.
Are you sure master-crafting a weapon doesn't make it a relic? If I were a TO, I think I would say it is.. well needs a FAQ.
My initial post was about supressors. For 90p we get a mobile platform, deepstruck if neccesary to scrape that one model of a infantry unit to deny overwatch. I want to have more primaris along with my old school BA models and this might be something worthy for having in your toolbox, even one squad because the range of those autocannons are so massive. What do you think?
Xirax wrote: Are you sure master-crafting a weapon doesn't make it a relic? If I were a TO, I think I would say it is.. well needs a FAQ.
My initial post was about supressors. For 90p we get a mobile platform, deepstruck if neccesary to scrape that one model of a infantry unit to deny overwatch. I want to have more primaris along with my old school BA models and this might be something worthy for having in your toolbox, even one squad because the range of those autocannons are so massive. What do you think?
I own six on sprue and will be building them up once I finish my Sanguinary Guard off. I love the concept of them and can't wait to get them tabletop ready. Their utility in being both overwatch denial and just solid long range shooting is excellent.
As for the needing a FAQ, I don't disagree, and it might work as you said and counting as a chapter relic rules out artisan of war. That said, it's a good option to bring a second Character with a 4 damage thunder hammer to the game.
Xirax wrote: Are you sure master-crafting a weapon doesn't make it a relic? If I were a TO, I think I would say it is.. well needs a FAQ.
Master crafted weapons (using the special issue wargear Master Crafted option, not innately Master Crafted weapons like MC Boltguns) are relics for rules purposes.
What are players thoughts on veteran intercessors. I think it is flavorful but the cp's are better spent elsewhere. Is this correct or am I missing something.
russellmoo wrote: What are players thoughts on veteran intercessors. I think it is flavorful but the cp's are better spent elsewhere. Is this correct or am I missing something.
While I'm sure it can be built around, I'm not sure spending the CP out of an already tight pool (for such a CP-hungry faction) is worthwhile. Between Shock Assault, Savage Echoes, The Sanguinor, and Unleash Rage, I don't think the extra attack is necessary. Not to mention if you really wanted it, just take the Death Company Intercessors I think, a 6+++ is better than an extra leadership, especially as Astorath is worth taking these days, and can help mitigate that morale anyways.
I fail to see the point of DC intercessors. They are priced the same as regular intercessors, they have the same wargear, same stats, 6+ FNP, but only LD7, no sarge, one less attack for the unit, and no obsec. Stratagems are the same for both units, except for the 5+ FNP for DC intercessors. Why should i ever use DC intercessors ? They are elite, so i cant use them to get CP for a battalion. Why not use the CP gained from regular intercessors to make them veterans ?
"If you really wanted it", as in if Intercessors with +1A was important to the person.
I don't understand how spending the CP to improve Intercessors improves anything. You're only going to gain 1CP over a Vanguard of DC Intercessors doing that, and again, Astorath can eliminate Morale worries for the turn it matters.
Larks wrote: "If you really wanted it", as in if Intercessors with +1A was important to the person.
I don't understand how spending the CP to improve Intercessors improves anything. You're only going to gain 1CP over a Vanguard of DC Intercessors doing that, and again, Astorath can eliminate Morale worries for the turn it matters.
If i get 5CP for a battalion and i spend 3CP for veterans i have 2CP left.
Larks wrote: "If you really wanted it", as in if Intercessors with +1A was important to the person.
I don't understand how spending the CP to improve Intercessors improves anything. You're only going to gain 1CP over a Vanguard of DC Intercessors doing that, and again, Astorath can eliminate Morale worries for the turn it matters.
If i get 5CP for a battalion and i spend 3CP for veterans i have 2CP left.
Guess they are more of a fluff option. Lore wise it's a big thing that Primaris can fall to the black rage as well. I think it's nice from GW to give us the option to represent this on the battlefield even while not the competitivest choice. On the other side they get +1A when charging, have a 6++ (5++ with strat) can be forlorn furied and get access to Lemartes buffs and so on. All that for the same price as regular Intercessors. They will not see any tournament tables, but I guess they could bring some fun.
So played 2 games this weekend with my new BA's first true outing with them. Both games were 1500 and in both games the game was over by the end of t2.
First game was vs Deathguard, 2nd was vs Death watch.
In my first game my death company, mephiston, and smash death co captain all got into cc t1. Smash captain killed the enemy lord of contagion warlord, death company killed a large 15 man plague marine squad, and Mephy didn't actually get to swing at anything cause they were all dead. 2nd game was even more brutal, with my death company getting into cc with a land raider achellies, a venerable dread, a master of the watch, and 5 hellblasters on my t1. Once the company swung all that was left was 1 hellblaster that made it out alive. Granted my smash captain also charged the land raider and helped kill it so that happened.
I was running 15 men, all with jump packs, 3 with thunder hammers, 3 with power fists and hand flamers, rest with chain swords and hand flamers.
I will say these guys are freaking nasty. They kill whatever they hit and they hit so hard..... but they die directly after. Even with the 5+++ they are still only 1w t4 models. Is this really how they should work? They kill something dead then die themselves? Or am I missing a different trick that I dont see? I was buffing them with a sanguinary priest but was thinking a lib may be needed to cast unleash Rage + sanguinius shield to help them / would be better?
Yes, they are an example of glasscannon, they enter-kill something and then usually get focused. You may try to "capture" model in order to your enemy to not me able to fallback (in your second example, if you manage to wrap the final hellblaster with your consolidate movement, it wont be able to fall back and you will only suffer from enemy melee).
Azuza001 wrote: SI will say these guys are freaking nasty. They kill whatever they hit and they hit so hard..... but they die directly after. Even with the 5+++ they are still only 1w t4 models. Is this really how they should work? They kill something dead then die themselves? Or am I missing a different trick that I dont see? I was buffing them with a sanguinary priest but was thinking a lib may be needed to cast unleash Rage + sanguinius shield to help them / would be better?
No, that is pretty much how Death Company work. They are a glass cannon that tears a big hole in the enemy line for the rest of your army to exploit. Lack of survivability is kinda fluffy seeing as these guys are looking for a clean death in battle. Boosting their resilience to 5+++ can be handy now and then if you really need them to hang in there but most of the time I treat them as expendable. That is why I normally only support them with Lemartes and then let them get on with the job. His rerolls to Hit and Charge are golden and the addition of a Litany now is just gravy. Any more than that is overkill IMHO.
If you want a survivable jump pack unit, you are better building around a big unit of Sanguinary Guard. I would buff these with the following characters in this order of priority.
1. Sanguinary Ancient with Standard of Sacrifice (2 wounds and a 2+/5+++ save is pretty durable).
2. Sanguinary Priest with Jump pack. Heals, resurrects and +1S. Very nice.
3. Sanguinor for a +1A bubble. Less needed than he used to be thanks to Shock Assault and Savage Echoes but still useful, especially as he got a points drop in CA19.
4. Librarian with Jump Pack and Unleash Rage. Again, not as needed as he used to be but getting each SG up to 6 attacks on the charge if you get all these buffs working together is just insane. Even Knights and Death Guard daemon Engines can't withstand that kind of punishment.
A maxed out pfSG squad with max buffs deals ~145 damage to t8 3+ if fighting once.
T3, Priest, Librarian, ancient, Astorath and Sanguinor is all that you need
Might be useful if the opponent were to line up 10 knights close enough on the other side of a ruin so you can charge all 10 with one model each and be within coherency and then somehow all survive and use fight again strat so each 30pt Sanguinary guard model can kill a knight on its own.
I don't think the glass cannon concept works at the DC's price point. Any hole they open can be sealed immediately on the opponent's movement phase. Your best bet is to tricorner the enemy so they don't get shot to pieces, but this isn't reliable. Their cost per W is just staggering. Mortals are also the kiss of death.
Martel732 wrote: I don't think the glass cannon concept works at the DC's price point. Any hole they open can be sealed immediately on the opponent's movement phase. Your best bet is to tricorner the enemy so they don't get shot to pieces, but this isn't reliable. Their cost per W is just staggering. Mortals are also the kiss of death.
They cost one point more than Vanguard Veterans but get an extra +1A on the charge, a 6+++ and access to Lemartes. I normally run a 10-man squad with Lemartes and they put in great work most games.
Between Descent of Angels, Forlon Fury and our new +1" on the charge, getting them into melee with something valuable is usually possible (if not exactly easy). Even if they don't get to kill high-value targets, they can still be game winners. In my last game, my AM opponent tried to flood the centre Objective with bodies on T3. My DC killed 35-ish models across 2 turns. Very messy. Not exactly high value but when you need to clear hordes, DC, can make a big mess in a short amount of time.
It was actually one of the few games I have played where they survived more-or-less intact. My opponent didn't pay them much attention because Smash, Mephiston and a bunch of Scouts assaulted into his deployment zone on Turn 1.
Define "work great". Killing a bunch of 4-6 pt models with 18+ and then having them die to throwaway fire is not my idea of great. I don't want to sink a bunch of CP into getting glass cannons into combat that they can't sustain. It's so much better to shoot hordes/screens imo.
Martel732 wrote: Define "work great". Killing a bunch of 4-6 pt models with 18+ and then having them die to throwaway fire is not my idea of great. I don't want to sink a bunch of CP into getting glass cannons into combat that they can't sustain. It's so much better to shoot hordes/screens imo.
Which is something BA can do *much* better now. Doctrines make killing screens child's play.
Right. So I want the elite killers in my list like SG and VV. I don't see a place for 1W DCatm. Primaris DC might be better even by using the impulsor.
"Work Great" mean killing the enemy units I need killed in order to win the game. Sometimes that is a high value target and sometimes it just means clearing a horde of bodies off Objectives in a hurry to claim VPs.
10 DC did the job faster than any other 300 points of my army could have done (200 if you do not count Lemartes) thanks to the combination of bolters, jump packs and a boat load of melee attacks. I din't actually need to spend CPs on the DC in that game either as it turned out. Smash, Mephy and the Scouts played distraction-carnifex and soaked up a lot of attention. What firepower my opponent had to spare, he wanted to throw at the Tacticals and Intercessors holding my Objectives. This left the DC free to sweep the mid-field.
Always kill the DC. Even if you have to give up a few points. If they were cheaper, I could get behind them. But 18 points naked plus a babysitter is too expensive. Your opponent derped out, that doesn't make DC good. DC die 4 times faster than intercessors in cover to trash fire. There's no reason to try to kill the intercessors first.
Seriously? I just said I prefer SG and VV. I know DC is iconic, and it doesn't make me happy, but I don't see a real role for them at their price point. Yes, VV also die to throwaway fire, but are at least immune to AP and don't need a babysitter.
I also just said shoot the screens rather than charging expensive fragile melee models into them. If I could guarantee a tricorner every time, I'd reconsider.
Klickor wrote: Martel, is there any constructive criticism from you ever? You all but say, "Go play something else".
1/3 of the posts the last few pages have been you saying. "dies to easy" or "too expensive". More alternatives would be nice and not only saying "no"
I don't think he's wrong though. In the current environment, 10 slightly tougher Marines are not difficult to kill at range and people talking about how they get them to survive because their opponent shot other things or how they wrecked enemies who failed to screen properly doesn't change the fact that those two situations are more down to bad play from the opponents than any inherent power of the DC.
I've played about half a dozen games with the new codex now, against a variety of different armies, each time using 10 DC with 3 TH and jump packs. Their impact has been somewhere between worse than zero and pretty decent, but unfortunately edging more towards the bad end of the scale. Once they managed to gut some Gaunts and tie up some Tyranid shooting but even then I had Scouts and Incursors ready to help out in the same combat if needed. They died immediately afterward in what I deemed a fair trade - they killed much less than their points but silenced a lot of shooting. In other games they've just died to Overwatch or my opponents have screened well and left me nowhere useful to land even with Forlorn Fury before the game starts. Then there are the games where they start in Deep Strike and everything depends on that 8 for the charge. My experience has been they aren't consistent enough and the kind of targets they're really good against are often units that other elements in your army can deal with. I think an equal points investment in SG or DC Dreads is probably better in most cases as both do a bit more against tougher targets.
I think you're both right re DC. They can blend almost any units they come in to contact with and with aplomb. I've no doubt about there offensive potential. It's my opponent's ability to screen that has rendered them useless against my more regular opponents. I was sick of killling maybe 30 guard or 10 intercessors at best and then watch them turn to vapour without making their points back in too many games they became pointless. But! I do realise that's more about my group than DC.
Why ? Only one can have a melee weapon, only LD7, they are slow, no JP, cant deepstrike, they need a transport to get them anywhere, and keep them safe. They need CP to work, so you need even more intercessors as a troop choice to generate CP for them.
Personally I'm loving DC, always do work for me. Whether its murderising screens, locking down vehicles, pulling down flyers or just distracting the enemy and causing them to alter their game plan. A unit doesn't need to always make its points back to be considered useful, it needs to contribute to your game plan and generate new options or remove them from your opponent.
Complaining about their durability? DC are super killy for their points, very mobile, with a bolter they have a now decent ranged weapon. They are more durable than a standard marine and have access to a couple of durability enhancing strats. I think you are being unrealistic asking for more really, they are at a very fair points level.. You compare their durability to intercessors in cover, perhaps put the DC in cover, hide behind terrain, lock something in combat or give your opponents something else to think about.
What armies are you playing against that you only ever get to charge screens? DC fly and get to move and advance before the game, they have massive range of possible movement, only a couple of armies can field enough cheap chaff to fully block them out. There is an awful lot of spacemarines, eldar, necrons flooding the meta at the moment, they don't have the numbers or desire to put out huge screens. If you do face screens then take a turn making some holes ready to exploit turn two or charge in a be sure to take some prisoners. Forlorn fury is a great strat not just for getting a first turn charge in but also for positioning your DC so they don't get killed turn one, if you can't get them in or behind cover turn one then play with more terrain.
How do you feel about the death masks with the new strat? In 8th I have always run my sanguinary guard without them, but the -1 could come on handy (if only also worked on shoothing fase...)
So it sounds like the answer on death co is either "really useful" or "simply dies".
From my 2 games / experience with them I found them useful myself, and i understand why my opponents both focused on killing them after their initial charge. Being able t1 to pick them up and redeploy anywhere then charge 3d6+1 seemed very good.
Honestly it didn't even occur to me that vanguard vets were an option. I have 10 of them for my black templars I was working on and now the idea of 15 death co hitting t1 and causing mayhem then them hitting t2 to finish the job is very enticing, if not point heavy. My army uses no vehicles at all, mostly primaris phobos units so my t1 has me having 0 units in my deployment zone, with drop pods with valued hq's and tacticals dropping in t1 to do what they need to do. In my 2nd game t3 when 5 tactical marines charged an enemy chaplain they put out 22 attacks, 1 for base, 2 for charging / assault doctrine, and 1 for unleash rage. Add the -1 ap for assault doctrine and the srg with his chain sword, 22 attacks wounding on 3's is damn nice for even base tacticals to put out (the chaplain, he did not survive the encounter btw).
But back to my original question, is 15 guys, 3 with thunder hammers 3 with power fists too much? I orginally was going to give them all flame pistols in case I got to shoot while in cc and it was only 12 pts but now I am thinking it isnt gonna happen.
That's adding 75 pts of wargear to a 270 point unit. That's not too bad, but you are already up to 23 points/W with no invulns. A couple of smites, and and some intercessor fire and that's 350 pts gone with no heavy weapons dedicated. This is why I quit using them. I can do the same job with units that are far less vulnerable.
Azuza001 wrote: But back to my original question, is 15 guys, 3 with thunder hammers 3 with power fists too much? I orginally was going to give them all flame pistols in case I got to shoot while in cc and it was only 12 pts but now I am thinking it isnt gonna happen.
Power fists are better than Thunder Hammers for the points unless you are equipping an entire squad. The reason is you can get nearly 2 Fists for the price of 1 Hammer meaning you get twice as many attacks (not to mention the bolters which can be a nice bonus). Now Fist attacks average 2 damage while Hammers have a flat 3. This mean that even against large targets, Fists put out more damage per point than Hammers. If you are facing MEQs or similar then Fists are nearly twice as good as Hammers.
The only edge case where Hammers are slightly better is against 3W models where you can be sure that each wound is a kill with nothing wasted but that is sufficiently specialised that I would not worry about it too much.
3 Hammers is 48 points. You can get 5 fists for 45 points which will perform better on average. Hammers are best used on units where you want to max out the damage (e.g. Captain Smash). But in a squad with mixed weapons, I would always take the 5 Fists over 3 Hammers.
I'm thinking trying 10x DC in a drop pod. Drop the pod on an midfield objective, UWoF Lemmy/stock chaplain with the new relic between the drop pod doors hopefully with +2" charge litany. Charge. Drop pod sits on the objective and protects your HQ from incoming fire. Your opponent might want to get rid of the pod and it's less shooting against other units and the DC is less expensive. Yes they lose utility if they survive the counter-punch, but anyway. Something to try.
But back to my original question, is 15 guys, 3 with thunder hammers 3 with power fists too much? I orginally was going to give them all flame pistols in case I got to shoot while in cc and it was only 12 pts but now I am thinking it isnt gonna happen.
15 seems like complete overkill. What can 15 achieve that 10 realistically can't? They get enough attacks to blender most chaff with just 10 models. Flamer pistols are terrible - bolters are much better in general and cheaper as well. If you give them flame pistols they get a bunch of S3 hits on screens, probably don't wipe the screen, then charge and wipe the screen. Remove the pistols and you end up with the same result for cheaper because bolter fire plus DC charge clears most units that aren't super-tough. Your proposed unit, without the flamers is almost 350 points, which is far too much for what are essentially 15 Space Marines. Drop to 10 with just 3 TH and they're still a bit too expensive for my tastes but probably just as effective in practice as your unit of 15.
I prefer TH over PF mainly for the guaranteed damage. Flat 3 damage is much, much better in practice than d3 damage and allows DC to go hunting vehicles or monsters and makes them very strong against Primaris too because each TH wound is a guaranteed kill, rather than a 2/3 chance of a kill. If you're backing them up with Lemartes, his ability now allows you to re-roll hit dice so you can re-roll 3s for TH attacks, making them very efficient and likely to kill some pretty tough targets. 3 TH with Lemartes support gets 9 hits, which is likely 7-8 wounds, which is more than enough to take out most vehicles and monsters without invulnerable saves. The PF does much less overall.
I'm thinking trying 10x DC in a drop pod. Drop the pod on an midfield objective, UWoF Lemmy/stock chaplain with the new relic between the drop pod doors hopefully with +2" charge litany. Charge. Drop pod sits on the objective and protects your HQ from incoming fire. Your opponent might want to get rid of the pod and it's less shooting against other units and the DC is less expensive. Yes they lose utility if they survive the counter-punch, but anyway. Something to try.
Litanies are used at the start of the turn, so you can't use them to buff units that arrive as reinforcements. It's one of the many frustrating things about some of the BA unit interactions.
Also if the rules lawyers of dakka are correct. You can also place the DC 9" away from infltrators or phobos captain when they disembarl from the drop pod, which in other hand needs to be placed 12" away.
I'm thinking trying 10x DC in a drop pod. Drop the pod on an midfield objective, UWoF Lemmy/stock chaplain with the new relic between the drop pod doors hopefully with +2" charge litany. Charge. Drop pod sits on the objective and protects your HQ from incoming fire. Your opponent might want to get rid of the pod and it's less shooting against other units and the DC is less expensive. Yes they lose utility if they survive the counter-punch, but anyway. Something to try.
Litanies are used at the start of the turn, so you can't use them to buff units that arrive as reinforcements. It's one of the many frustrating things about some of the BA unit interactions.
Lemartes/chaplain is already on the battlefield and can recite a litany at the start of the battle round, then gets removed and set up again with UWOF,
Stus67 wrote: Anybody have any experience running Eliminators? I just picked up a box and I was wondering if it'd be worth having two squads instead of one.
Theyre worth their weight in gold. I regularly run nine.
Stus67 wrote: Anybody have any experience running Eliminators? I just picked up a box and I was wondering if it'd be worth having two squads instead of one.
I haven't tried them yet but they look good on paper. They are a bit pricey (cash-wise) but a lot of people make them go further by putting the extra weapons and bits on 3 easy-to-build Reivers to make a second squad on the cheap.
Stus67 wrote: Anybody have any experience running Eliminators? I just picked up a box and I was wondering if it'd be worth having two squads instead of one.
Seem pretty solid on paper. What I am wondering is whether to equip the sergeant with the Bolt Carbine thing or go with regular sniper rifle. Looks like in many cases getting the +1 to hit and wound is better than the sergeant's extra shot, but I haven't done the maths on all of the different options yet.
Seem pretty solid on paper. What I am wondering is whether to equip the sergeant with the Bolt Carbine thing or go with regular sniper rifle. Looks like in many cases getting the +1 to hit and wound is better than the sergeant's extra shot, but I haven't done the maths on all of the different options yet.
Outside of very specific cases (seriously, the possible permutations for Eliminators are *CRAZY*, especially when you start factoring in rerolls), you're better off sticking with three rifles. The carbine is, believe it or not, more expensive, and only grants the capacity to move after overwatch. You still retain the ability to guide fire if you keep the sergeant with a sniper. It gives you some additional flexibility to the unit that opting for a carbine doesnt.
Stus67 wrote: Anybody have any experience running Eliminators? I just picked up a box and I was wondering if it'd be worth having two squads instead of one.
Seem pretty solid on paper. What I am wondering is whether to equip the sergeant with the Bolt Carbine thing or go with regular sniper rifle. Looks like in many cases getting the +1 to hit and wound is better than the sergeant's extra shot, but I haven't done the maths on all of the different options yet.
I've tried all the variants and how I use em, I use them out of LoS so I get +2 to hit anyway, so no need for weapon upgrade. Also with ITC terrain rules, you can't withdraw from combat if you get charged through the building you are camping because first floor is LoS blocking.
Slipspace wrote: Seem pretty solid on paper. What I am wondering is whether to equip the sergeant with the Bolt Carbine thing or go with regular sniper rifle. Looks like in many cases getting the +1 to hit and wound is better than the sergeant's extra shot, but I haven't done the maths on all of the different options yet.
For Las Fusils, the +1 to Hit/Wound is definitely more points-effective than an extra shot. For sniper rifles, I am not quite so sure.
Still, it is not a costly option and the ability to withdraw after firing overwatch makes them great for screening.
The Srgs +1 to hit/wound ability gets significantly worse when you start losing models, I go for all snipers. Makes out of LOS shooting alot better and you can get +1 to hit elsewhere.
On another point, I used some assault terminators today in a friendly game. Dropped them down turn two, got an assault in then lost a couple to shooting. Assaulted in turn 3 and a basic dude is smashing about with 4 TH attacks, this unit can now get some serious work done.
How are people running SG at this point? What support or what loadout?
EDIT:
Here's my first attempt at Blood of Baal + CA for BA. (I'm really trying to make DA/BA work though). Any comments are more than welcome. I chose to skip DC, as it'd be a shame not to include lemartes + astorath. And then I want captains for relics/wlt and I also kinda want sanguinius. I chose vets and SG. I'm looking at no OW from the suppressors or the relic from the captain.
I'm running 10 SG, 5 swords, 3 fists and 2 axes. I chum them with Astorath and a sanguinary ancient. They are an absolute terror and my group hate them.
SG used to be all PF all the time but I think with the new costs for swords and axes a mix works better. For a squad of 10 5 swords and either a 2/3 or 3/2 split of fists and axes is good. I usually run 6-8 in a squad as I find 10 to be too much of a points sink and, depending on terrain and the enemy, Deep Striking 10 where I want can be a problem.
With the army list above, I'm not sure you need so many Storm Shields in the VV squad. In my experience giving an entire squad SS is rarely worth the points. You rarely need every single save to be a 3++ so usually just keeping half of the squad with SS is fine. SS are so ridiculously cheap now though it's not a huge deal, but something to consider. Also, I've found shotgun Scouts to be the worst out of all the Scout loadouts. They don't really do anything bolters can't but have shorter range.
Here's my first attempt at Blood of Baal + CA for BA. (I'm really trying to make DA/BA work though). Any comments are more than welcome. I chose to skip DC, as it'd be a shame not to include lemartes + astorath. And then I want captains for relics/wlt and I also kinda want sanguinius. I chose vets and SG. I'm looking at no OW from the suppressors or the relic from the captain.
Here's my first attempt at Blood of Baal + CA for BA. (I'm really trying to make DA/BA work though). Any comments are more than welcome. I chose to skip DC, as it'd be a shame not to include lemartes + astorath. And then I want captains for relics/wlt and I also kinda want sanguinius. I chose vets and SG. I'm looking at no OW from the suppressors or the relic from the captain.
Oh wow. There's that. They only get doctrines when they're pure BA? Like, I can't even ally in an admech spearhead? Uh. Anybody feel like it might still be worth the trade?
Here's my first attempt at Blood of Baal + CA for BA. (I'm really trying to make DA/BA work though). Any comments are more than welcome. I chose to skip DC, as it'd be a shame not to include lemartes + astorath. And then I want captains for relics/wlt and I also kinda want sanguinius. I chose vets and SG. I'm looking at no OW from the suppressors or the relic from the captain.
Oh wow. There's that. They only get doctrines when they're pure BA? Like, I can't even ally in an admech spearhead? Uh. Anybody feel like it might still be worth the trade?
If you ally with other space marines from codex space marines you keep doctrines but you'll have to wait till the end of January for Dark Angels. They're in the next psychic awakening and they'll inevitably get the rule there, same as we did in ours! Otherwise I think Doctrines do make our army much stronger.
So no batreps, no comp lists over the internet. What have been your takeaways post PA?
There seemed to be some buzz on incursors, anyone got any actual field experience. My biggest pout is whether we need a spearhead (dedicated anti-tank) or can we just back dual batallion and big blob of SG, SG ancient VVets/DC..
Also yet to try out DC in drop pod to break the 12" anti-DS meta of new shiny SM.
Xirax wrote: So no batreps, no comp lists over the internet. What have been your takeaways post PA?
There seemed to be some buzz on incursors, anyone got any actual field experience. My biggest pout is whether we need a spearhead (dedicated anti-tank) or can we just back dual batallion and big blob of SG, SG ancient VVets/DC..
Also yet to try out DC in drop pod to break the 12" anti-DS meta of new shiny SM.
Incursors look good on paper and I have heard people anecdotally reporting good performance from them but I haven't tried them myself yet (my UFO pile is too big already).
Dual Battalion is working well for me. PA has given us a real boost but we are as CP-hungry as ever (perhaps moreso now that we have Transhuman Physiology competing for those precious CPs). Dual Battalion gives us plenty of slots for AT and we have plenty of characters and units capable of taking even LoWs apart in melee.
If Infiltrators are causing a problem, Forlorn Furying a DC squad into them is probably the easiest solution. They mess with DS but are nothing special in melee.
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necr0n wrote: How are people running SG at this point? What support or what loadout?
I run 10 with 5 fists and 5 Swords. I make 1 my Warlord so it bakes full rerolls into the squad (I use Hero of the Chapter to build Captain Smash). After that, I run the following characters for support in order of importance depending on points.
1. SG Ancient with SoS.
2. Sanguinary Priest with JP for healing, resurrection and +1S.
3. Sanguinor for +1A bubble
4. Librarian with Jump Pack for Unleash Rage and another point dependent on opponent.
So with the new additions in PA i am thinking about fielding Terminator once more. I am, in a friendly environment, going to field 2 assault squads one with hammers and one with claws supported with a Sang. priest with jump and the Icon of the Angel.
I think that the Hammer termies can make a comeback (I still think that the claw ones underperform sang guard)
For me, at the highest possible competitive setting, the BA have just been a ’different’ SM list, possibly used at ETC ruled team tournaments where you can pair it against something other than the highest top tier. Basically, a mech SM list (max invictors, hunters, whirlwinds, 3+ impulsors with small Intercessor units) and a melee character loadout. 2 damage4 smash Caps, Dante and Mephiston/Libra Dread. That’s it really, not sure it’s possible to do better.
I just started with my ba but I have really enjoyed them with the new pa book. Just getting access to the new good strats seems terrific to me (Why yes I would like a librarian dreadnaught that takes half dmg when it gets hit...).
Baal predators are still pretty worthless beyond a cool model. For the points just take a razorback.
Mephiston is an interesting guy now. Being primaris he is actually not as easy to deploy so he gets put in the same group as the librarian dread. I have thought about taking an impulser and 5 death co intercessors to move him up the field instead of using wings of sanguinius so the lib dread can use it but that's a pretty hefty point investment just to move him. He is really nasty still once he hits cc though, I have not lost him yet in a game (came close once but then an sanguinary priest healed him up right lol. )
Saw this idea on B&C and made some quick mathhammering..
Concept of smash chaplain with DVoS and mantra of strength equipped with a power fist and artisan of war (hero of the chapter would be my take).
Compared it quickly between Astorath, Lemartes, Smash captain (DVoS+AoW), Mephy (2 attacks from quickening). Also with succesful mantra of strength and the charge bonus.
All these wound on 2+ against T7 or lower.
Against 3+ save ** and 5++:
Cpt smash - 19.444dmg ** 15.556dmg
Smash chap - 14.815dmg ** 11.852dmg
Astorath - 13.125dmg ** 10.694dmg
Mephy - 12.153dmg ** 9.722dmg
Lemmy - 11.111dmg ** 11.111dmg
These numbers might be a bit wrong, but still gives some perspective. With red rampage and honour the chapter etc the damage output increases way more. The 3-5 damage power fist even with -1 to hit fares quite well point-wise. Only 99 points for the chap and it might surprise the enemy as a disguised mini-smash captain.
I'll definitely try this concept this weekend. Found my DC chaplain bits will build one tonight. I'll let you know how it fares in a 500p game.
FYI:
my 500p list if someone interested.
Spoiler:
Batallion
Chaplain with jump pack - power fist - DVoS - Artisan of War (HotC) - Angel's wing
Sanguinary priest with jump pack - Icon of the angel
5x scouts - bolters
5x scouts - bolters
5x intercessors - power fist - AGL - auto bolt rifles
Might have been better to make the chaplain more durable with gift of foresight for sweet 3+/4++/5+++, but I'm expecting Grotesques blob to hammer down, so all the damage is welcome..
Mephiston is an interesting guy now. Being primaris he is actually not as easy to deploy so he gets put in the same group as the librarian dread. I have thought about taking an impulser and 5 death co intercessors to move him up the field instead of using wings of sanguinius so the lib dread can use it but that's a pretty hefty point investment just to move him. He is really nasty still once he hits cc though, I have not lost him yet in a game (came close once but then an sanguinary priest healed him up right lol. )
I know but the new model looks so cool. I painted mine up to be snorting a line of valhallen snow off his finger..... Mephy gets the good stuff to cast quickening....
Played another game with the new rules today (only my second since BoB).
I ran a buff character heavy list with lots of scouts, a couple of whirlwinds and three main units there to receive the buffs. A full DC blob, 9 Sang guards and 5 tactical terminators.
Going second against a mixed Aeldari/drukari list with two grot blobs and the full warlock deathstar. I managed to hide the DC then redeploy them and take out 4 of the warlocks turn one, he then had to spend his turn two dealing with them.
My turn two the terminators and sang guard dropped in and together with a smash captain torn the two grot units to bits. He then gunned down a fair few of my characters but the terms and SG survived and managed to take out the rest of the meat of his list, he conceded after.
Take aways:
Mephiston is not much use when the opponent has multiple rerollable deny attempts:(
With proper support Sang guard will kill whatever they attack, the strat for turning 1 dam into 2 is super good.
For just under 200pts a squad of 5 tac terminators are very useful. Good shooting, good assault, good survivability. Get them in cover and charge something big.
I played with two sets of sniper scouts and a unit of Eliminators, weight of snipers is key.
I really wish we had a way of locking a unit in combat, but I suspect that would be a little busted
Xirax wrote: Saw this idea on B&C and made some quick mathhammering..
Concept of smash chaplain with DVoS and mantra of strength equipped with a power fist and artisan of war (hero of the chapter would be my take).
Compared it quickly between Astorath, Lemartes, Smash captain (DVoS+AoW), Mephy (2 attacks from quickening). Also with succesful mantra of strength and the charge bonus.
All these wound on 2+ against T7 or lower.
Against 3+ save ** and 5++:
Cpt smash - 19.444dmg ** 15.556dmg
Smash chap - 14.815dmg ** 11.852dmg
Astorath - 13.125dmg ** 10.694dmg
Mephy - 12.153dmg ** 9.722dmg
Lemmy - 11.111dmg ** 11.111dmg
This is almost a best case scenario for the chaplains and probably is great at lower points or in a meta with less tough units.
You must get the litany off or you lose almost half the output and 3+ even with reroll is mess reliable than we want on such a model.
The character chaplains only wound t7 on 3+ while meph and cap wounds on 2s. On t8 they wound on 4+ while cap is 3+ and meph still on 2s. Against models with 2+ saves or 3+ saves with no melee invul(like most t8 models) the extra ap on meph, Astorath and cap is very relevant. And against units with 2-4 wounds the captain, and partly astorath, is also way better due to flat 4 damage.
Smash captains do their role much better than any of the other options and cant really be replaced. That is to kill knights, t8 tanks and units like centurions without the opponent really being able to stop him due to ignore overwatch and insane movement and flat 4.
The other characters are great as well but not against the same targets but if you get some buffs, 2 of them or lucky they can do a caps job in a pinch.
Dont really see why you would ever not use a TH on a captain unless very low points or why use a smash chaplain when we already have 2 amazing chaplains that require no extra cp to be effective. They might not be able to wound t7/t8 on 2s but they have better abilities, more attacks, use less cp, and are more reliable hitters. The smash chaplain is inbetween the named chaplains and the smash captain but cant do either job as well and if not getting his litany off way worse than both.
Im gonna run with Lemartes, mephy and a smash captain in most of my lists and have them do slightly different things. Even though they do kinda the same for their points against the 3+ t6 or below multiwound models they do everything else very different and cant replace each other.
We still have the best, due to how reliable he is and not in max damage self buffed, smash captain by far of all the marine chapters and should still take him. If you are willing to pay 100+ pts already and spend a ton of cp in the charge/fight phase just pay that extra 40 for the TH and 2 cp for giving him a WL trait and death visions. It is worth it to pay 25-30% extra for twice the output on the best guided missile in the game.
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p5freak wrote: We have a way to lock units in melee, it's called tri pointing, or taking a hostage.
I think its too unreliable against a good player. Like if his models in a unit are close enough to each other you cant wrap them individually and then you need to wrap the whole unit. Or if he have anything with fly or just other things, like certain terrain or other units, also blocking the way tripointing is impossible. And if the only units he lets you wrap can hit back hard it it probably wont be possible either. If you hit him and kills models he can remove them so you cant tripoint and if you only consolidate in they can hit back enough to seriously hurt your models.
Tripointing is extremely powerful against someone who dont play lots of melee and know exactly how the fight phase work and you can abuse it but against a knowing opponent who is willing to sacrifice something rather than do a "perfect" screen with each guardsmen spaced out 2" in a 30" line tri pointing is damn hard.
p5freak wrote: We have a way to lock units in melee, it's called tri pointing, or taking a hostage.
As mentioned above, tri-pointing is great against a player who doesn't execute the assault phase very well and is no use against units with fly. I was really needing to engage my opponents big unit of warlocks on jetbikes as they had a strat that let them fallback from combat after they attacked. Also tri-pointing required certain situations and positioning that are not always possible once your units have taken a pounding and you need to engage multiple targets.
One last thing from my game, the strat that lets any unit heroic intervene is game winning. My opponent tried to engage and kill my sang guard and was hoping to leave my termies out of the fight, no such luck for him :-)
The Deer Hunter wrote: Which are the best countermeasures you guys found to start second?
Only hide as best as you can, and leaving in reserve as many units as you can?
Hide as much as you can is usually the best answer. Even if you have to take the -1 to hit for moving heavy weapons you're better off not getting shot than being dead. Units with advanced deployment can help with this too. Scouts, Infiltrators and Incursors can all deploy anywhere outside of 9" from the enemy and that greatly increases the number of hiding places on the board. Just be careful not to put them too close to the enemy or they'll get charged and likely die. Reserves can help too but one of the problems with close combat reserve armies is the lack of reliability bringing in assault troops that need a 9" charge.
The Deer Hunter wrote: Which are the best countermeasures you guys found to start second?
Only hide as best as you can, and leaving in reserve as many units as you can?
Hide as much as you can is usually the best answer. Even if you have to take the -1 to hit for moving heavy weapons you're better off not getting shot than being dead. Units with advanced deployment can help with this too. Scouts, Infiltrators and Incursors can all deploy anywhere outside of 9" from the enemy and that greatly increases the number of hiding places on the board. Just be careful not to put them too close to the enemy or they'll get charged and likely die. Reserves can help too but one of the problems with close combat reserve armies is the lack of reliability bringing in assault troops that need a 9" charge.
With the new RedThirst it is a bit easier assaulting from reserves. You need 8’, and some more units may reroll charge dices. The new relic, DC with Lemartes, the 3d6 strat.
Who know the math for assaulting 8’ with reroll of all or one dice?
The problem is clearing the way in T1 after taking a full turn of fare. Which units could do it best (staying alive and clearing chaffs)?
The Deer Hunter wrote: Which are the best countermeasures you guys found to start second?
Only hide as best as you can, and leaving in reserve as many units as you can?
Hide as much as you can is usually the best answer. Even if you have to take the -1 to hit for moving heavy weapons you're better off not getting shot than being dead. Units with advanced deployment can help with this too. Scouts, Infiltrators and Incursors can all deploy anywhere outside of 9" from the enemy and that greatly increases the number of hiding places on the board. Just be careful not to put them too close to the enemy or they'll get charged and likely die. Reserves can help too but one of the problems with close combat reserve armies is the lack of reliability bringing in assault troops that need a 9" charge.
With the new RedThirst it is a bit easier assaulting from reserves. You need 8’, and some more units may reroll charge dices. The new relic, DC with Lemartes, the 3d6 strat.
Who know the math for assaulting 8’ with reroll of all or one dice?
The problem is clearing the way in T1 after taking a full turn of fare. Which units could do it best (staying alive and clearing chaffs)?
8+ on 2D6 is 41.66% chance, so less than half. Re-rolls make the probabilities a bit more difficult because you may only want to re-roll a single dice rather than the whole thing, even if you have the Angel's Wing or Lemartes to do a full re-roll. Rolling a 6 and 1, for example, on a crucial charge, you'd be better off re-rolling the 1 rather than both dice. But then you might want to save that re-roll for a different charge later in the phase. This is where BA start to show their problems, because co-ordinated Deep Strike assaults are very difficult in 40k due to the dice. They may work, but likely won't without significant luck or CP investment (sometimes both). Even then, failing to get 1 or 2 important buffing characters into position to help the assaulting units can also be problematic. Compare that to castling up around a Chapter Master and Lt with an IH list and you see why the Devastator doctrine is so superior to assault.
For chaff clearing, Intercessors with auto bolt rifles are your best bet, but I'm also thinking Incursors can get the job done with early charges as their paired combat blades, plus bolter fire should be good for clearing lighter units and they fill out Troops slots as well. The problem BA will still have, I think, is getting the balance right between assault elements and shooting. Technically, we have enough assault options to do everything - remove chaff, kill elite infantry, kill tanks - but if you invest in effective options for all that you have no viable ranged support at all.
So I see everyone saying to take Powerfist for SG, but what about gun wise? Keep that stock, or should i use Plasma pistols? As for death company ive seen several different load outs based on number of thunder hammers taken. My list uses all chainswords. Should i have a certain number of thunder hammers per 5 DC in my units?
I'm not convinced on the all PF all the time for SG, at most half for me. I've never found any of the other gun options to be any good over the years and with AB going to 0 points there is no point in upgrading IMHO.
1 in 5 is the general concensus for DCTH's. Also bolters instead of pistols.
Pre CA/BoB powerfist were the only good weapon but now it depends. If a Sanguinary priest is near and you dont need str 8-10 then go for mostly swords. If not mostly axes. If you need anti tank go for mostly fists. Mixing axes or swords with fists work well but I see no real point in mixing swords with axes except for looks. I did like 2 inferno pistols before when thr difference in price were only 4pts each but I wouldnt pay 9pts for them when the bolter is free and got buffed. New stratagems and tactical doctrine turn 2(which is most likely turn to use the bolters) makes the decision easy. Always bolter, always.
I see. My lists lack anti tank outside of the smash captain and the SG with powerfists. I have hellblasters in one list but I'm possibly going to drop those for other options.
Also, where on earth would I even get more fists? I was building part of my first 5 and I only saw a single fist on the sprue. Ebay didn't seem to have any bits sellers for the fist. Do most just take them from like tactical squads and go that route?
Vanguard vets and Death Company. 7 out of my nine SG fists are from VV, SG and DC boxes. Dont know where I got my other 2. You could do as I did and magnetise the right arm and just start with 2 fists and then add the others over time. At least you dont need all fists anymore so you dont lose much by having sub optimal melee weapon load outs.
I also put magnets on both the right shoulder and left hand on one guy so I can have 1 guy with a 2handed sword or axe for looks. Glad they reduced the price on his weapon so I dont pay 7 extra points for cool.
demonwalker wrote: So I see everyone saying to take Powerfist for SG, but what about gun wise? Keep that stock, or should i use Plasma pistols? As for death company ive seen several different load outs based on number of thunder hammers taken. My list uses all chainswords. Should i have a certain number of thunder hammers per 5 DC in my units?
Angelus Boltguns are the way to go for SG now. The reasons you used to see plasma pistols and PF on SG was because GW messed the initial pricing up so badly those were actually cheaper than the default loadout. Now that the other weapons are about the same cost as the PF it's not quite so clear which is better and will depend on the unit's role. The good thing is I don't think you can really go too far wrong with any loadout of CC weapons on the SG now. They all have their uses and the pricing is about right on all of them. Generally I prefer either swords or fists.
demonwalker wrote: I see. My lists lack anti tank outside of the smash captain and the SG with powerfists. I have hellblasters in one list but I'm possibly going to drop those for other options.
Also, where on earth would I even get more fists? I was building part of my first 5 and I only saw a single fist on the sprue. Ebay didn't seem to have any bits sellers for the fist. Do most just take them from like tactical squads and go that route?
Your ebay must be different from mine. When i search for power fist on ebay.com i get 8303 hits. The first page already shows 20+ power fists.
demonwalker wrote: I see. My lists lack anti tank outside of the smash captain and the SG with powerfists. I have hellblasters in one list but I'm possibly going to drop those for other options.
Also, where on earth would I even get more fists? I was building part of my first 5 and I only saw a single fist on the sprue. Ebay didn't seem to have any bits sellers for the fist. Do most just take them from like tactical squads and go that route?
Your ebay must be different from mine. When i search for power fist on ebay.com i get 8303 hits. The first page already shows 20+ power fists.
So people are using powerfists from other models. I did a search of SG powerfists, then just SG bits. This is my first time really paying any attention to a normal space marine army so I figured the SG ones might be different from say a tactical squad or terminator fist.
demonwalker wrote: So I see everyone saying to take Powerfist for SG, but what about gun wise? Keep that stock, or should i use Plasma pistols? As for death company ive seen several different load outs based on number of thunder hammers taken. My list uses all chainswords. Should i have a certain number of thunder hammers per 5 DC in my units?
For SG I take an even mix of Swords and Fists with everyone just running the stock Angelus Bolter.
For DC, I would not run Hammers at all. Power fists are more cost effective since they are so much cheaper. For the cost of 3 Hammers, you can take 5 fists which will be slightly better on average against large targets and much better against infantry due to extra attacks. Plus the Fist guys can take a shooting weapon too. OK you don't take DC for the firepower but a couple of extra bolters are always welcome.
What is good with hammers over fists, especially in smaller units, is that you need to lose more models before losing hammers than if you had fists. When its 3 models left in a squad TH greatly outperform fists. If using 12+ models then it doesnt really matter but for me the DC squad size is dependent on left over points and are usually 8-10 models and using fists over hammers would mean I risk loosing good attacks on normal overwatches. After a knight/low overwatch and gets a round of stomps off there usually isnt many models left in the squad for a second round of fighting and using Honor the Chapter with 3-4 hammers is much more likely to finish it off than if it were fists.
Also better when double charging 2 things that have vastly different stat profiles. Lets say you have 4 hammers and 6 fists to make math easier and charge a squad of ork boys and a battlewagon. You want fists/hammers on wagon and swords on the orks. Both versions deal the same damage to the vehicle but the TH squad will have 2 extra guys with chainswords to kill the boys.
The only real situations I can think of when you want fists over hammers and not just a cheaper power axe or more Chainswords are against units with 4w. There the flat 3D isnt much better than d3 unlike almost everything else with multiple wounds. Or when having ton of buffs and cp spent on the unit. Like Librarian and Sanguinor giving extra attacks but if spending so much perhaps its just better to go with hammers anyway.
Fists sounds better than hammers on smaller squads like assault or tactical marines in which you just want to guarantee you can kill other smaller squads or maybe on support characters on which you dont want to pay 31 extra points. But on melee units which are geared to kill harder stuff I feel hammers>fists overall. On 5 man squads of DC with a single upgraded weapon I would take a pf over hammer but thats an harassing unit.
Klickor wrote: What is good with hammers over fists, especially in smaller units, is that you need to lose more models before losing hammers than if you had fists. When its 3 models left in a squad TH greatly outperform fists. If using 12+ models then it doesnt really matter but for me the DC squad size is dependent on left over points and are usually 8-10 models and using fists over hammers would mean I risk loosing good attacks on normal overwatches. After a knight/low overwatch and gets a round of stomps off there usually isnt many models left in the squad for a second round of fighting and using Honor the Chapter with 3-4 hammers is much more likely to finish it off than if it were fists.
Also better when double charging 2 things that have vastly different stat profiles. Lets say you have 4 hammers and 6 fists to make math easier and charge a squad of ork boys and a battlewagon. You want fists/hammers on wagon and swords on the orks. Both versions deal the same damage to the vehicle but the TH squad will have 2 extra guys with chainswords to kill the boys.
The only real situations I can think of when you want fists over hammers and not just a cheaper power axe or more Chainswords are against units with 4w. There the flat 3D isnt much better than d3 like almost everything else with multiple wounds. Or when having ton of buffs and cp spent on the unit. Like Librarian and Sanguinor giving extra attacks but if spending so much perhaps its just better to go with hammers anyway.
Fists sounds better than hammers on smaller squads like assault or tactical marines in which you just want to guarantee you can kill other smaller squads or maybe on support characters on which you dont want to pay 31 extra points. But on melee units which are geared to kill harder stuff I feel hammers>fists overall. On 5 man squads of DC with a single upgraded weapon I would take a pf over hammer but thats an harassing unit.
Agreed. This is one of those cases where I don't think a simple damage comparison is the best way to analyse the two options. There's a lot of value in condensing the heavy hitters into fewer models as it maintains your damage more consistently. Also, there's a lot to be said for the certainty of 3 damage per wound. I've lost count of the number of PFs I've rolled a 1 for on damage when all I needed was a 2, or I've failed to kill a model with FNP because it passed one out of the 2 saves it took, etc. I don't think PF or TH are better or worse than one another and both have their merits for the points they cost.
I lean towards a single Hammer in my DC units, keeps the cost down whilst still letting me hurt big stuff until the last model is gone.
My DC are usually there as infantry killers and chainswords and bolters usually get the job done well enough. A couple of fists are useful and don't lose you any bolters.
I’ve been having fun running 18 DC with a libi and a sang priest in drop pods, 2 hammers in each squad, and lemartes starts on the table.
Turn one if Canticles of hate goes off for the +2” charge aura, I wings of fire lemi into place and drop the pods down. All the DC have a +3” rerollable charge.
Throw in unleash rage from the lib, quake bolts on the priest, refusal to die, and trans human, and they become a big thorn in your opponents face
The setup also lets you bypass those pesky 12” reserve bubbles from alpha legion or new marines. Since the drop pods are the only think arriving as reinforcements they land 12.1” out then the units disembark to 9.1”. Lemi can’t charge but hit auras still reach.
A drop pod + 10 guys is only 35 points more than 10DC with jump packs. And the turn one drop is really nice. I think even a single pod like this could be viable
Nukz4you wrote: I’ve been having fun running 18 DC with a libi and a sang priest in drop pods, 2 hammers in each squad, and lemartes starts on the table.
Turn one if Canticles of hate goes off for the +2” charge aura, I wings of fire lemi into place and drop the pods down. All the DC have a +3” rerollable charge.
I'm sorry, but the aura doesn't stack with our +1 to charge. It's mentioned within the chaplain prayer description.
Depends entirely on the mission in question. You're unlikely to have the firepower to chew through 100+ GEQs in a turn but I rarely find that I need to. In GW missions you'll often need to remove some specific chaff from objectives rather than just indiscriminately mowing guys down and any decent BA army should have the firepower to kill 30 GEQ a turn if needed. In Maelstrom missions you can tailor your deck a bit more to your opponent and I often find when I'm heavily outnumbered that taking any of the Secure or Defend objectives is a bad idea as you're too likely to end up with a hand of bad cards you can't achieve.
Alternatively you just ignore them and kill the dangerous stuff first. Sure, GEQs can put out a lot of firepower but it's rarely concentrated fire as that many models struggle to bring their weapons to bear against the same target. BA are still easily capable of taking enough firepower to deal with tanks, monsters and the like without reducing their close combat punch too much. I think concentrating too much on killing chaff is often a mistake because that's exactly what your opponent wants. Kill the things that can kill you first and deal with the chaff later.
For me killing chaff isn't an issue, my deathcompany, sang guard and terminators all pack bolters that can happily pick up infantry plus the sheer weight of attacks we bring in combat (DC especially) make short work of them.
For me dealing with tough targets at range is the main issue, sure if we can get to them in assault we can tear most things apart but all our ranged weapons seem a bit lacking when we could just take the same thing but better in a Space Marine detachment.
The things I like for ranged support are whirlwinds (you need some LOS ignoring shooting), forgeworld dreads of all stripes, predators and Deveastators. None of these feel hugely efficient and taking enough to be reliable is alot of points so I often just double down on choppy stuff.
I have being using both scouts and Incursors, to clear chaf early in the game. I usually, play 2 units of each both to fill battalions, early obj graving and chaf clearing.
Combining shooting and melee a unit of combat knife scouts average 7.5 cultist dead / 6.2 guards dead and a unit of incursors 10.6 /8.9. Not bad for 55p & 95p
What Slipspace said is spot on. You don't have to clear all the chaff just the right chaff.
I tend to run a double battalion with incursors, intercessors(x4) and I'm waiting on my infiltrators coming soon so that I can turn 10 of my intercesors into DC. I usually run a mix of bolt weapons.
That gives me 40 bolter shots a turn min from just my troops and seems to be enough for me.
Just considering having a second chaplain within a transport. And I am wondering if it would be that useful.
Can a chaplain cast a litany while inside transports, or is it like the psychic powers? Also if they are off the table (teleportarium, etc) can they cast their litanies?
WisdomLS wrote: For me killing chaff isn't an issue, my deathcompany, sang guard and terminators all pack bolters that can happily pick up infantry plus the sheer weight of attacks we bring in combat (DC especially) make short work of them.
For me dealing with tough targets at range is the main issue, sure if we can get to them in assault we can tear most things apart but all our ranged weapons seem a bit lacking when we could just take the same thing but better in a Space Marine detachment.
The things I like for ranged support are whirlwinds (you need some LOS ignoring shooting), forgeworld dreads of all stripes, predators and Deveastators. None of these feel hugely efficient and taking enough to be reliable is alot of points so I often just double down on choppy stuff.
I never leave home without 3 fw quadralaster contemptor or 3 devastator squad with 4 laser each. We can punch holes in combat but we're still marines after all. As a matter of fact I'm currently using only 2 units in deep strike, namely the sanguinary guard and the mad captain. The sanguinary ancient and my sanguinary priest with jump pack start on board because I'm an arrogant player xD.
Xirax wrote: Chap needs to be on table. Also be careful how the specific litanies work, in which stage you need to be in range of the aura.
I thought so, but I wanted to be sure. It makes chaps less useful unless you run them along some unit not deepstriking or in transports. Using in fiery wings strat (guess that is the name, sorry my codex is not english) to relocate them after casting the litany seems to be the way, but most of them are not useful if he is not close at the moment.
Maybe the best option is to field them with props and make them advance?
How do players usually run them? Are they worthy for a turn 2 or 3 litany?
Is anyone else using a full squad (or squads) of 6 plasma Inceptors? I've only gotten a few games in doing so (and also using a 6 man bolter Inceptor squad), but they've been pretty great. Backed up with our FnP banner and with the ability to hide and then redeploy with Upon Wings of Fire if necessary is kind of awesome.
Inceptors I run as 3 man heavy bolter in my blood Angel's army. Plasma just doesnt seem to fit right on ba, plus the extra cost is quite hard to justify.
Martel732 wrote: I don't like the pricetag or them killing themselves. They are good for DA, I'm not sold on BA at all.
Totally understandable, but I always have them deep striking near a captain (phobos captain who is in the area of where I want them to show up at) and also start them on the board near a chaplain, who attempts to put the +1 to ranged hit Litany on them...so killing themselves is only a slight issue.
I get it...they're expensive to boot, but man they really put out a ton of damage EXACTLY where and when you want them to do so...AT RANGE, which is nice for BA.
I've also been amazed at how hard they are to remove. 3W at T5 with the FnP banner (and a 5+ invul if I feel froggy and have a librarian in the list) sticks around way longer than I ever thought it would.
As stated, Plinceptors tend to favor armies with ways to boost their damage output (DA's Weapons of the Dark Age, DW's Doctrines, etc).
They can definitely do work in their Bolter configuration (they're basically alternate twin-HB land speeders), and using them to clear the way for heavy hitters in a BA army makes sense.
I am building some plasma Inceptors (but got distracted by the shiny new Mephiston model). The bolter ones do a lots of great work for me and I am hoping for good things from the plasma dudes. With Standard of Sacrifice and a JP Priest (now that they are a thing again), they look quite durable at 3 T5 wounds apiece.
Of course those are the same support characters I normally wun with my SG which could get awkward....
Karhedron wrote: I am building some plasma Inceptors (but got distracted by the shiny new Mephiston model). The bolter ones do a lots of great work for me and I am hoping for good things from the plasma dudes. With Standard of Sacrifice and a JP Priest (now that they are a thing again), they look quite durable at 3 T5 wounds apiece.
Of course those are the same support characters I normally wun with my SG which could get awkward....
This is similar to what I've done, and it's not all that awkward. Depending upon the deployment, you can kind of end up with both squads flooding the same area. Your opponent will be wanting to use the same guns to shoot both squads, and if the FnP banner is in range, won't be able to get rid of either.
They're not invincible, of course, but by the time they go down they've done their damage, and melee characters are now into their lines and cleaning up.
So far my biggest flaw is getting the banner bearer killed earlier than he should...just being too aggressive with him. I need to remind myself to just keep him safe and forget he's got a power fist.
Hey,
could we talk a bit about playing a successors BA.
So we are limited to only one primary relic, so angel's wing or in some cases standard of sacrifice are the ones you will choose.
Then, you can still get icon of the angel and quake bolts which are nice, imho.
But then.. our BA chapter tactic the red thirst is so good and fluffy so losing the +1 to wound just feels like not-BA. Can you guys see any combo's that might with BA models and strats. I've liked bolter fusillades and ranged marksmen with my raven guard, the rerolling all 1's with bolt weapon has proven super.
I think that you can't compete with +1 to wound in melee, but what do you think?
...but literally nowhere outside of an official GW tournament have I ever seen the "your BA must be red" rule enforced. It's not even a proper rule since the colour isn't defined anywhere. As long as you don't also have any Fleshtearers models or relics in a BA detachment the actual colour of them shouldn't matter. I've been playing black BA for years and never had a single complaint. If people truly have a problem with not-red BA ask them to point to the actual rule that requires them to be painted red.
Agreed. At least they are painted. To say "it's not red it cant be official ba" is to say "you are not painting it the way I like so waaaah". But that's just my opinion, for the 2 cents it's worth lol.
I play my red painted space marines as what ever I want, you can paint your models how you like and use whichever rules you want.
Play you pink and green marines using the blood angel rules. For all rules purposes they count as BA, field your counts as mephiston and Dante, it's all using the correct rules.
After more thinking, I think autobolters and bolter inceptors are gonna be key for screen clearing. I think aggressors are a bit too slow and can be played around.
Does anyone running any bikers ? I have 184 points in my list so i'm torn between 8x bikers with chainswords or 5x lc termies + 19 points elsewhere . Mind that I already have 7x sanguinary guard with fists+plasma pistols in deep strike so bikers would give me more board presence .The mobility is great and you can hunt both units and objectives. I think that we can't use the stratagem "Skilled Riders" though (correct me if I'm wrong) . I also have 12x aggressors moving in the center of the board with sanguinary ancient +standard of sacrifice + shield of sanguinious on one unit and power through knowledge from a malleus inquisitor on the other . 3+/5++/5+++ 5T 3W models seems legit but a bit slow overall .That's why i want a mobile unit to pair them with. I'm not sold on DC as they die like flies and I prefer a more grindy/durable unit and not a glass cannon one with this strategy. 5T 2W with 4x bolter shots + 2x (3x) atcks on charge sounds good to me packing nice survivability and descent offence at the same time.
Scout bikers are excellent value. You can get 8 for 184 pts. They put out 34 bolter shots at 24". At 12" they have 16 additional shotgun shots, at 6" with S5. In melee they can use their pistols. And they have two attacks in melee with their combat knives, sarge has three. Plus one when they charge.
I have been playing some games with various lists, full melee, some indirect fire, killshot and balanced AC shooting. My takes are at the moment, every time I play super aggressive T1/T2 I struggle, I may win if I go first or if stars align it doesn't mind, but more I go deeper in this rabbit hole.. I've been starting planning and list building from thinking of going second. Going first would be just a bonus. Hoard the board and maybe smash cpt one key target, but wait till T2/T3 to bring the heavy hitters. Sang priest with icon dropping in and Astorath with canticle of hate and UWoF combo have gotten my T2/T3 army wide charge succesful. Multi-charge and try to wrap something. I think I'm going like 7-4 after PA in various points games, so there are some really nasty match ups.
Back to the point of this post.. Anyone else feel like we should play the long game to get our doctrine rolling. In my last game I dropped my death ball T3 and did really hilarious damage. Chainsword DC can get hilarious with 8 attacks / dude S5, Ap -1/4 wounding anything on 4+ within sang priest aura. Dropped a full hp despoiler with 10 DC only with chainsword and boltguns with fight twice. It was more of an casual game, but still.
So far I've had OK success by basically ignoring the super doctrine and treating it as a bonus if I can get it to happen. Usually I want to bring down the jump troops on turn 2 but if I don't have to or it makes more sense not to Savage Echoes provides a fantastic buff from T3 onwards. The thing with getting silly numbers of attacks with DC is that at a certain point it has diminishing returns. Do you really need 70+ attacks from your DC on T3? Ironically the returns often diminish faster the longer the game goes on so by T3 those extra attacks can mean even less because you're fighting against units that are already damaged. I find that often you're better off settling for the 40+ regular attacks in turn 1 or 2 and the 12 or so PF/TH attacks that go along with them and doing so doesn't really affect the targets you can effectively kill.
I personally try to use savage echoes but I found it to be non optimal in some games to w8 until round 3 . In that type of games I am shooting screens with 12 aggressors (hopefully they will be middle board - hate you thunderfire cannons!) and 3x auto bolter intersessors units - always considering what's left of em after opponent's shooting -
I then buff up my 8man biker squad (unleash rage from mephi , litany of hate + invocation of destruction from astorath who's also tagging along with them along with a sang priest) . That's 38 str5 rerolling hits with exploding 6s and some possible -4ap wounding T4 on 2s/T5 on 3s/T6,7,8 on 4s . I throw mephi and astorath in there too .
After that in the 3rd round it's time for my sang guard deathstar to punch things along with wherever available buffs (as above) + any of the aggressors (if they are still around) + my smash captain
Sometimes there's too much shooting (looking at you IF and IH) so I have to go full throttle 2nd round . The way I run the aggressors squads down middle board is very effective 3+/5++/5+++ (+transhuman) and sometimes the terrain also helps (ETC has a lot of different tables from empty to heavy) but there's some nasty shooting around nowadays
All in all I have found throughout all my games with blood of bhall that sustain is the name of the game . Every time I try to 1st turn rush into combat with glass cannon DC I end up losing more points than I am killing but more importantly it feels that I trade elite deathstar for screens . If you don't like bikes you can also use more sang guard (174 points get you 6x with axes and boltguns) but I feel 8x 5T 3+ 2W are better (more survivability) than 6x 4T 2+ 2W . Both can effectively hide first turn as they are very mobile .
I like punching xenos and heretics alike but strategy matters too xD .I agree with Splipspace and his points about DC and number of atcks
Hmm,
My "more good lists" doesn't have any DC. Dual batallions with either contemptor(s) + supressors or two scorpious. Supressors the more I use em I like em more and more. So versatile. The one unit I keep switching back and forth is the Sanguinor, if I can support even once my sang guard it feels justified, but when it doesn't I could have gotten better beatstick out of Lemartes with over 1/5th cheaper. Also something to mention, I have only 8 SG models. So haven't tried two blobs (this why occasional DC in my lists).
Is there anyone here running Blood Angels in a soup? If the answer is yes , along with which faction? Other marines so you won't lose doctrines or imperium in general?
I am thinking of running a list with Raven Guard successor chapter just for the assault centurions alpha strike . I consider them overpowered in the current meta . Feels bad for BA not having access to them . Both armies super doctrines don't feel like a no brainer + with the strategems of these factions you have 1st wave round 1 charge leading to 2nd round charge
A question about rules and tactics that I figured would be best answered here rather than somewhere else.
I wanted to run mainly Flesh Tearers for access to Seth as Chapter Master and the Sorrow's Genesis for an apothecary. However the BA relic Standard of Sacrifice seems paramount for running infantry heavy. I saw it mentioned in an article that Sorrow's Genesis and the Standard could be combined for superlative durability. Is that an oversight by the author or is it actually possible?
Basically, do Flesh Tearers retain the "BLOOD ANGELS" keyword as well as gaining the "FLESH TEARERS" keyword, or does Flesh Tearers overwrite the BA keyword? I couldn't find a really solid answer that was recent at all. Battlescribe seems to think the FT detachment units have both keywords. But that's uncertain at best and totally false at worst.
bocatt wrote: A question about rules and tactics that I figured would be best answered here rather than somewhere else.
I wanted to run mainly Flesh Tearers for access to Seth as Chapter Master and the Sorrow's Genesis for an apothecary. However the BA relic Standard of Sacrifice seems paramount for running infantry heavy. I saw it mentioned in an article that Sorrow's Genesis and the Standard could be combined for superlative durability. Is that an oversight by the author or is it actually possible?
Basically, do Flesh Tearers retain the "BLOOD ANGELS" keyword as well as gaining the "FLESH TEARERS" keyword, or does Flesh Tearers overwrite the BA keyword? I couldn't find a really solid answer that was recent at all. Battlescribe seems to think the FT detachment units have both keywords. But that's uncertain at best and totally false at worst.
As far as I know, FLESH TEARERS would replace BLOOD ANGELS.
I may be wrong, but if you plan on doing this, talk to your opponent/TO ahead of time to make sure it's okay with them.
I wanted to run mainly Flesh Tearers for access to Seth as Chapter Master and the Sorrow's Genesis for an apothecary. However the BA relic Standard of Sacrifice seems paramount for running infantry heavy. I saw it mentioned in an article that Sorrow's Genesis and the Standard could be combined for superlative durability. Is that an oversight by the author or is it actually possible?
Basically, do Flesh Tearers retain the "BLOOD ANGELS" keyword as well as gaining the "FLESH TEARERS" keyword, or does Flesh Tearers overwrite the BA keyword? I couldn't find a really solid answer that was recent at all. Battlescribe seems to think the FT detachment units have both keywords. But that's uncertain at best and totally false at worst.
You can do this using the "Honoured by Baal" stratagem before the game. This allows you to take a BA relic in a successor army. You replace all instances of BLOOD ANGELS in the relic description with <CHAPTER>. I am pretty sure this means you can run Standard of Sacrifice in a FT army and have it work on them normally (unless there is some fine print I have missed).
This thread has gone a bit quiet so I thought I'd share my list for an upcoming game and get some feedback.
It basically used a group of powerful buff characters and then has 4 decent units that it can buff.
It has a backfield of snipers and some other scout units for objective holding.
Tanks/monsters will be dealt with up close and personal like
Astorath [6 PL, 105pts]: Invocation of Destruction, Litanies of Hate
+ Elites +
Death Company [27 PL, 304pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power fist
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power fist
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
Sanguinary Ancient [6 PL, 64pts]: Angelus boltgun, Power fist, Standard of Sacrifice, Warlord
WisdomLS wrote: This thread has gone a bit quiet so I thought I'd share my list for an upcoming game and get some feedback.
It basically used a group of powerful buff characters and then has 4 decent units that it can buff.
It has a backfield of snipers and some other scout units for objective holding.
Tanks/monsters will be dealt with up close and personal like
Astorath [6 PL, 105pts]: Invocation of Destruction, Litanies of Hate
+ Elites +
Death Company [27 PL, 304pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power fist
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power fist
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
Sanguinary Ancient [6 PL, 64pts]: Angelus boltgun, Power fist, Standard of Sacrifice, Warlord
I like a lot the Idea of the list, it is similar to what i like to run (included the termies post PA). I would do a couple of changes (without breaking the essence of the list):
> In the 1sth battalion, I would amend the troop choices for 3 Five man intercesors with RF bolters and power fist (instead of the big blob of intercesors and the sniper scouts). this gives you 37 points
> I would run the termies with standar loadout (fist (powersword) + SB): this gives you 34p
> If you change a Encarnine axe for a encarnine sword you will have 72 points for a second eliminator squad.
This gives you some units to run the board and pick the midfield objectives (intercesors), against a little less sniper power (not that much as you add the second eliminators) and the loss of the missiles in the termies
With Orks in a weird place and my FLGS not really keeping up on stock I decided to double up on army projects so I can keep painting stuff while waiting stuff to come in, so I settled on doing Blood Angels....in Lamenters colors. I have a weird fondness for yellow armies and putting myself through the ringer when it coems to painting so it's right on point.
So far I've picked up this:
and a Sanguinary Priest.
Recommendations on where to start with this and where to go next?
ClockworkZion wrote: With Orks in a weird place and my FLGS not really keeping up on stock I decided to double up on army projects so I can keep painting stuff while waiting stuff to come in, so I settled on doing Blood Angels....in Lamenters colors. I have a weird fondness for yellow armies and putting myself through the ringer when it coems to painting so it's right on point.
So far I've picked up this:
and a Sanguinary Priest.
Recommendations on where to start with this and where to go next?
Hi,
So actually from the box the most usefull units are the DC the SG and the Intercesors. I suggest you build your possible Sanguinary ancient as an ancient, as it is a very good value unit (with the relic baner and being your warlord buffs its sanguinary collages a lot. If i were you i would pick some more troop choices, I would go for primaris, either more intercesors or some incursors. I would also buy some more DC and SG (they are usually played in big blobs (15DC & 10SG) to stack buffs on them). Also other good value units on the BA arsenal would be an smash capitan (Capitan + jumpack + thunder hammer + storm shield), and either a librarian dread or Mephiston (not both as they both need to use the same powers to be usefull).
So actually from the box the most usefull units are the DC the SG and the Intercesors. I suggest you build your possible Sanguinary ancient as an ancient, as it is a very good value unit (with the relic baner and being your warlord buffs its sanguinary collages a lot. If i were you i would pick some more troop choices, I would go for primaris, either more intercesors or some incursors. I would also buy some more DC and SG (they are usually played in big blobs (15DC & 10SG) to stack buffs on them). Also other good value units on the BA arsenal would be an smash capitan (Capitan + jumpack + thunder hammer + storm shield), and either a librarian dread or Mephiston (not both as they both need to use the same powers to be usefull).
Thanks for the feedback! Nothing too unexpected from that list, but it's always good to double check these things with all the extra stuff coming out making it hard to keep tabs on everything.
Thanks to having Death Company and Sanguinary Guard squad sprues handy and a bunch of weapon options I'm scratching my head a bit: what does everyone recommend for Intercessor melee weapon options?
I'm thinking of keeping the Death Company cheap with chainswords, and I haven't really settled on swords versus axes for the Sanguinary Guard.
For intercessors, I run em' with power fists. If I had the points might even take thunder hammers, but fists are quite balanced for what they do. T3 onwards you have 5 attacks with your sergeant.
I haven't tried axes on my sanguinary guard, I run em' with mix of swords and fists. I've run em' assisted with a sanguinary priest so +1 to str buff I'll wound MEQ on 2+ anyways and against tougher targets S4 / S5 or even with priest aura S5/S6 there isn't really many targets that you get the bonus. Case for axes might be different if I wouldn't run my sanguinary priest. The priest is there for icon of the angel, another source for the relic might be another sanguinary ancient to provide reroll wound rolls of 1, but the point difference is only 7 points towards another HQ slot vs elite slot.
For death company, I've tried out 10man with chainsword and boltguns, which are great for chaff clearing, but with couple fists or hammers they become more multi-tool threat.
Intercessors I use a powerfist but would be tempted by a thunderhammer pts (and model) permitting.
Deathcompany are great with chainswords and then a couple of hammers to allow them to threaten big targets.
As Xirax mentioned, how you arm your sang guard depends on if you intend to keep a priest nearby for the Str buff of not.
If you run the priest then swords and a couple of fists are great, without the priest the axes improve alot given the amount of T4/8 targets there are.
Fist are great if you run near the warlord for the re-rolls, let so if you don't.
I run a mix as I like the look of different weapons and thats how I've modelled them, unless you're aiming for the bleeding edge of the meta the variance isn't that important and you can take casualties depending on which weapons are better in the matchup you are playing.
Fists for the Intercessors did seem like the way to go due to volume of attacks helping make the weapon better, but I had to check before I started looting options from the other kits.
With the SG I was thinking of using them as a turn 3 hammer by deep striking them in and smashing into key targets but I haven't commited to that fully yet.
And mixing in a Thunder Hammer for the DC makes sense. Keeps the unit relatively cheap but it doesn't lose punch if they lose some models simce the chainswords can act as ablative wounds.
I've just got myself a Phobos Captain. Does anyone have any experience with them?
I have 2 x 5 incursors to accompany him and I'm considering getting the start collecting vanguard.
Any advice is appreciated.
The Phobos Captain rocks when equipped with Quake bolts. He has a long ranged gun that can target Characters and anyone he hits is easier to hit in the subsequent melee round. He doesn't even need to deal damage, just hit.
Suddenly your SG and DC are hitting on 2s or your Smash Captains can effectively ignore the -1 to-Hit penalty on their Thunder Hammers.
Plus he provides the usual Captain reroll buffs and also keeps enemy units from coming from Reserve within 12". Put him with any kind of firebase and he provides both buffs and protection while hitting key targets for your assault troops with those Quake Bolts.
If you ever take any kind of buff character for your firebase, the Phobos Captain is probably the best choice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Incursors are nice. They are Troops so help fill you Battalion tax but they can get close to the enemy which makes them handy for early games pressure. Their ability to ignore cover helps to compensate for the lack of AP on their guns compared to Intercessor bolt rifles. They are not a combat powerhouse but between paired combat blades and Red Thirst, they can bully backline units
Plus a Haywire mine or two can make a nasty surprise for an enemy.
I wonder if one unit eliminator squad is worth to bring along.
this in combo with maybe 2 units of scout snipers (without cloaks to keep it cheaper).
To put some enemy characters under pressure, and atttract some fire and this way keep other units (DC) safe for a round?
I Do think that Eliminators are very good value in BA lists, to both press a little those characters and camp objectives (due to their deployment shenanigans).
Elites – Sanguinary Ancient w/ Angelus Boltgun, Power Fist & the Standard of Sacrifice
Elites – 10x Sanguinary Guard w/ Angelus Boltguns, 5x Power Swords & 5x Power Fists
Its a pity that he hasn't responded yet. I would be very interested in some more responses as I'm planning an army like this. Here is my response.
Spoiler:
Looks interesting, although I don't like Scouts.
How do you play it?
Deployment of Scouts and Dreads/Warsuits from the very start, with Warsuits close to the enemy.
Deep striking of DC and SG in round 2.
However, attacking the enemy in waves (Warsuits in round 1 and deep strikers in round 2) is questionable.
DC are not worth it in the current Meta IMO. They were at the beginning of 8th but now they just get tabled too quickly and don't make their points back. Just something I've observed from watching many BA battle reports. Well, not in smaller games anyway. They are more suited to 1500-2k+ games.
There won't be any in my list. I'm going with reivers instead. With Death masks plus their special rule, you're forcing morale fails big time. They're also considerably cheaper.
Elites – Sanguinary Ancient w/ Angelus Boltgun, Power Fist & the Standard of Sacrifice
Elites – 10x Sanguinary Guard w/ Angelus Boltguns, 5x Power Swords & 5x Power Fists
Its a pity that he hasn't responded yet. I would be very interested in some more responses as I'm planning an army like this. Here is my response.
Spoiler:
Looks interesting, although I don't like Scouts.
How do you play it?
Deployment of Scouts and Dreads/Warsuits from the very start, with Warsuits close to the enemy.
Deep striking of DC and SG in round 2.
However, attacking the enemy in waves (Warsuits in round 1 and deep strikers in round 2) is questionable.
I really liked his list, only thing I dislike or I think that list would get more milage is the contemptor. You could swap it for 6 more SG with few fists and make two 8man SG squads. Other option would be swap some incursor squads with the points, but in that build maybe the 2nd SG threat would be even better. I hope to hear from him how that list excels. The list I'm running (with success) is almost the same except I don't have invictors, I have two impulsors and two SG blobs and three squads of intercessors with fists.
As for DC, it's a glass cannon unit for sure, but it gives psychological side to your army that forces your opponent counter deploy and play cagey. And when I either uwof/ff/ds them with great speed just wreck stuff. I'm glad to trade the points of them in a crucial fight when you have some many other melee threats from SG and beefy characters to work with.
Martel, you can't say that players like Stephen Box or Thomas Hegstrom don't know their ropes. They both use the DC very effectively and do well with BA in competitive meta.
I agree with Martel here actually. So much so that I sold mine.
I also don't think he's saying they are not useable as we all know they are. However it's only their shock value that's any good even those guys will admit they rarely get their points back and some of us beleive there may be better ways of spending those points.
I didn't say anything about those players. I said good players don't care about DC. It's far easier to shoot chaff than send 18 pt one wound suicide troops into them. The last Box battle report I watched the DC basically did nothing after he got first turn and burned CP for forlorn fury.
It was because of the DC Forlorn Fury threat that his opponent had to deploy in the far corner like he did. Then the DC kept him in that corner. They didn't kill much, sure, but they created a huge positioning advantage early game which translated into board control and points for Stephen.
Martel732 wrote: There is no psychological edge vs good opponents. DC is just a pts pinata for them.
This.
I just don't see how they are value, especially against shooty armies. Basically they are a use once and destroy type deal which extremely heavily reliant on good rolls. If you get bad dice, they're getting hosed having failed to achieve anything at all. They need a points reduction or some better survivability.
They are part of the BA Kamikaze mentality which is inane, and doesn't work without very good luck. The more BA games I watch, the more I believe the vast majority of people play them terribly.
Hobby Hammer wrote: It was because of the DC Forlorn Fury threat that his opponent had to deploy in the far corner like he did. Then the DC kept him in that corner. They didn't kill much, sure, but they created a huge positioning advantage early game which translated into board control and points for Stephen.
No he didn't have to deploy like that. That's what the BA player wants. DC can't keep anyone anywhere if they don't cooperate.
DC suffer from the same issue as Vanguard vets; they're 1 wound models. Anything 1 wound in this game isn't worth 20 points base. That's what they cost w/Jump packs, and you have to take them with them. For 1 more point, you can get two scouts. For three more points you can get two scouts with sniper rifles that can target characters. For 23 points you can get an eliminator with specialized ammo.
They're far, far too expensive for how squishy they are. And that's before you add Lemartes or Astaroth, which are also overpriced, or kit them out with shields and hammers.
Stephen used dc to secure a win on T1 on the fifth round at bournemouth gt, where he went 5-0. He has made couple youtube videos on the tourney.. also art of war has thomas hegstrom fanboying his BA.
They can do stuff other units can't. I hope all my opponents think the same that they are crap. In my play strategy they have a role. SG are more durable for sure, but they serve a different role for me. Although 3x 10man SG blobs sound fun too
Martel732 wrote: I didn't say anything about those players. I said good players don't care about DC. It's far easier to shoot chaff than send 18 pt one wound suicide troops into them. The last Box battle report I watched the DC basically did nothing after he got first turn and burned CP for forlorn fury.
So you're the last word on who the good players are then? We just need to look at the evidence here: there have been a few successful BA armies since the release of Blood of Baal and DC feature in those armies. They have proven themselves to be part of a winning strategy for BA. Their role may be different than you would prefer it to be but they clearly have value as a glass hammer unit and that's been my experience too. Just yesterday I Forlorn Fury'd a unit up the board and killed Bjorn and most of a unit of 6 Thunderwolves turn 1 with my DC. They died in return, but removed two of my opponent's main threats at the same time. The effect they have on enemy deployment is also a valuable consideration. Just their presence can put the enemy in a more defensive posture, which you can then capitalise on in the early turns. I think DC occupy an interesting position right now where they are an extremely blunt instrument in themselves but they add depth to the way the rest of the army plays and provide a way to grab the initiative in the game before it even starts.
Well, from the last posts it should be clear that DC with forlorn fury can be a serious threat when deployed at the beginning of the game.
They have a very long charge range putting the enemy in a defensive position.
This effect can be reinforced by a forward deployment of say three Invictors.
Martel732 wrote: I didn't say anything about those players. I said good players don't care about DC. It's far easier to shoot chaff than send 18 pt one wound suicide troops into them. The last Box battle report I watched the DC basically did nothing after he got first turn and burned CP for forlorn fury.
So you're the last word on who the good players are then? We just need to look at the evidence here: there have been a few successful BA armies since the release of Blood of Baal and DC feature in those armies. They have proven themselves to be part of a winning strategy for BA. Their role may be different than you would prefer it to be but they clearly have value as a glass hammer unit and that's been my experience too. Just yesterday I Forlorn Fury'd a unit up the board and killed Bjorn and most of a unit of 6 Thunderwolves turn 1 with my DC. They died in return, but removed two of my opponent's main threats at the same time. The effect they have on enemy deployment is also a valuable consideration. Just their presence can put the enemy in a more defensive posture, which you can then capitalise on in the early turns. I think DC occupy an interesting position right now where they are an extremely blunt instrument in themselves but they add depth to the way the rest of the army plays and provide a way to grab the initiative in the game before it even starts.
An example of your opponents incompetence is not an example of them doing well. If my opponents are daft enough to leave that kind of option open on T1 the I would've maybe kept mine but alas they aren't.
In my last 3 battles with my DC i got 12 fire warriors, 20 IG and not even 10 intercesors. A smart opponent renders them useless and doesn't need to defend as much.
The vanguard tactics opponent over re-acted to the DCIMHO. He had no need to be so far back as the DC reached anyway which rendered his deployment as ineffective.
Come on.. forlon fury is just an option in the toolbox, you can use.. and it requires you to be going first and have your opponent deployed the right way.. they can be used in so many other ways... Let's not forget it.
Martel732 wrote: I didn't say anything about those players. I said good players don't care about DC. It's far easier to shoot chaff than send 18 pt one wound suicide troops into them. The last Box battle report I watched the DC basically did nothing after he got first turn and burned CP for forlorn fury.
So you're the last word on who the good players are then? We just need to look at the evidence here: there have been a few successful BA armies since the release of Blood of Baal and DC feature in those armies. They have proven themselves to be part of a winning strategy for BA. Their role may be different than you would prefer it to be but they clearly have value as a glass hammer unit and that's been my experience too. Just yesterday I Forlorn Fury'd a unit up the board and killed Bjorn and most of a unit of 6 Thunderwolves turn 1 with my DC. They died in return, but removed two of my opponent's main threats at the same time. The effect they have on enemy deployment is also a valuable consideration. Just their presence can put the enemy in a more defensive posture, which you can then capitalise on in the early turns. I think DC occupy an interesting position right now where they are an extremely blunt instrument in themselves but they add depth to the way the rest of the army plays and provide a way to grab the initiative in the game before it even starts.
And if your opponent had rolled better saves? Or not had such juicy targets exposed like that? I'm not saying who is a good player or not. I'm saying that good players have a tendency to handle the DC with ease.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xirax wrote: Come on.. forlon fury is just an option in the toolbox, you can use.. and it requires you to be going first and have your opponent deployed the right way.. they can be used in so many other ways... Let's not forget it.
What are those ways? Because they are such a good target for your opponent.
Martel732 wrote: At least VV can get 3++. That's a defensive niche. They still die to small arms and mortals easily though.
How are you getting them to 3++?
Edit: Right they're 3+ base.
Storm shields.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
wuestenfux wrote: Well, from the last posts it should be clear that DC with forlorn fury can be a serious threat when deployed at the beginning of the game.
They have a very long charge range putting the enemy in a defensive position.
This effect can be reinforced by a forward deployment of say three Invictors.
The enemy doesn't have to set up in a defensive position. In fact, spacing out is the thing to do vs BA.
Stephen used dc to secure a win on T1 on the fifth round at bournemouth gt, where he went 5-0. He has made couple youtube videos on the tourney.. also art of war has thomas hegstrom fanboying his BA.
They can do stuff other units can't. I hope all my opponents think the same that they are crap. In my play strategy they have a role. SG are more durable for sure, but they serve a different role for me. Although 3x 10man SG blobs sound fun too
They're basically Wulfen with no defenses. If you guys think DC are all that, you must gak a brick when you see Wulfen. I would take Wulfen over DC any day myself as well, but they are handled similarly, except you can't assault them as a solution.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kryczek wrote: An example of your opponents incompetence is not an example of them doing well. If my opponents are daft enough to leave that kind of option open on T1 the I would've maybe kept mine but alas they aren't.
In my last 3 battles with my DC i got 12 fire warriors, 20 IG and not even 10 intercesors. A smart opponent renders them useless and doesn't need to defend as much.
The vanguard tactics opponent over re-acted to the DCIMHO. He had no need to be so far back as the DC reached anyway which rendered his deployment as ineffective.
It's all about the wrap and trap. Which is never what DC used to be about. It's pretty nauseating really.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was honestly expecting a lot more enlightening stuff from the video batrep. It was all just standard BA stuff. Going for wraps and trying to crush opponent into the corner. Flawlessly executed, but a lot of BA batreps seem to be against people who don't understand what the BA player is going for. Maybe I'm wrong there. But the IH guy just seemed to die in place.
Martel732 wrote: I didn't say anything about those players. I said good players don't care about DC. It's far easier to shoot chaff than send 18 pt one wound suicide troops into them. The last Box battle report I watched the DC basically did nothing after he got first turn and burned CP for forlorn fury.
So you're the last word on who the good players are then? We just need to look at the evidence here: there have been a few successful BA armies since the release of Blood of Baal and DC feature in those armies. They have proven themselves to be part of a winning strategy for BA. Their role may be different than you would prefer it to be but they clearly have value as a glass hammer unit and that's been my experience too. Just yesterday I Forlorn Fury'd a unit up the board and killed Bjorn and most of a unit of 6 Thunderwolves turn 1 with my DC. They died in return, but removed two of my opponent's main threats at the same time. The effect they have on enemy deployment is also a valuable consideration. Just their presence can put the enemy in a more defensive posture, which you can then capitalise on in the early turns. I think DC occupy an interesting position right now where they are an extremely blunt instrument in themselves but they add depth to the way the rest of the army plays and provide a way to grab the initiative in the game before it even starts.
And if your opponent had rolled better saves? Or not had such juicy targets exposed like that? I'm not saying who is a good player or not. I'm saying that good players have a tendency to handle the DC with ease.
The problem with this logic (and similar comments from others further up the page) is that if you go first DC have a 25+D6" move before the start of the game, followed by a likely rerollable charge. There aren't usually a lot of places to hide from a centrally deployed DC unit. For example, in the game I mentioned my opponent had 3 options for this Thunderwolves:
1. Ignore DC. Not a great idea because you end up losing a lot of stuff to the first-turn charge
2. Deploy defensively and make the charge as long as possible. This is already a win for the BA player in a lot of cases. He chose this option.
3. Deploy out of charge range of the DC. Great for me as in this case that would basically have isolated his unit way out of the game for at least two and more likely three turns. And he still hasn't really dealt with the DC - they're still going to be charging something.
This is the strength of the DC in a lot of these lists. If you deploy to deny the first turn charge you're ceding board control tot he BA player. On top of that it's almost impossible to deploy in such a way that the DC don't have at least one good target and with the 6" consolidate Litany they have a huge reach even if you deploy a long way back. IT's not always about making your points back with DC, it's about the impact on the early turns of the game. It seems like this strategy works well as it's the core of how DC are being used by competitive players in fairly large tournaments. I don't think all those opponents are idiots.
Their threat range, including extra Pile-Ins and Consolidates is so great that screening isn't as effective against them as it is against other units. The DC are easily capable of killing an expendable screening unit and then wrapping and trapping another unit afterwards. I'm sure you'll have some comeback about how this doesn't work against "good players" but I feel like I need to reiterate yet again that this is a unit that has been used effectively by successful lists at competitive tournaments using these sorts of tactics. At a certain point I think you just have to accept that whatever personal experience you may have is not tallying with how the army is functioning in the hands of good players at fairly high-levels of play.
I've watched their reports. I'm pretty sure their opponents could have done more, especially as these BA lists have basically zero shooting. You have to space out so DC can't wrap the next unit. That's the only way such expensive one wound models can survive. And in the linked report, he didn't even get wrap with the DC and they all died after killing nothing important. Bottom line: people respect them too much and don't play enough placement games to neuter them.
Pile-ins and consolidates don't use the fly rule, so they can be gamed against readily.
You don't have to sacrifice DC against a screen. In my last game I started my DC onboard, but actually charged through a ruin T4. I just saved CP for potential uwof and support range of Lemartes. The game before I forlon furied my DC T1 and the same opponent assumed that I would be aggressive with my DC and made him play really cagey and screening all his valuable stuff letting me take control of the board and score big. Would have been different game of he would have had other no LoS shooting except his two squads of eliminators. This game I won, but have to say ultramarines are a tough matchup against BA, the 4 unit overwatch is terrifying. You really need to play the mental game and choose your fights. Having many big threats your opponent needs to honor is my strategy and I'm always making sure my opponents knows what my strats and units "might" be able to do.
If DC ain't your cup of tea, don't use them. Only shooting my recent lists have had have been invictors and eliminators, but I don't really miss them. I jusy try to play the mission, score points and have many threats. If I see a big charge, I'll definitely take it BA is very finesse army and don't forgive any mistakes. Winning with BA is satisfying atleast.
Martel732 wrote: I've watched their reports. I'm pretty sure their opponents could have done more, especially as these BA lists have basically zero shooting. You have to space out so DC can't wrap the next unit. That's the only way such expensive one wound models can survive. And in the linked report, he didn't even get wrap with the DC and they all died after killing nothing important. Bottom line: people respect them too much and don't play enough placement games to neuter them.
Pile-ins and consolidates don't use the fly rule, so they can be gamed against readily.
So you're claiming that players who have already gone 4-0 at the tournament are worse than the scrubs at your local shop? That seems unlikely. What's more likely is that you're using your units incorrectly and not building a list that threatens people enough to castle up and let you chew through them.
You could try to answer a question once in a while. Rather than sticking to a wall of ignorance.
Exactly. The problem here seems to be that whatever proof, suggestions or solutions are offered Martel will always either ignore or dismiss them out of hand, usually saying they don't match up with their experience. But, as I've now said numerous times, we've seen BA do pretty well recently at competitive tournaments and those armies usually look pretty close to what a fluffy BA army should as well. Martel seems to dismiss this for some reason. If the "exploitation" of a certain set of rules doesn't appeal, the army doesn't and the background of the game doesn't I'm left wondering why they bother at all. And if they're going to simply ignore anyone that disagrees with them I think Martel will pretty quickly end up shouting into an empty void. Ironically, that's kind of what debating with them feels like for me much of the time.
So, Martel, why do you continue to dismiss DC as a useful part of a BA army when successful competitive BA players have used them effectively in their own armies? Why do you continually dismiss examples of how they can be used by claiming only bad players would fall for such tricks in light of the evidence to the contrary?
Guys...I know forums depend on lengthy debates to exist, but you're really going above and beyond here.
People are allowed to have their opinions on what's more or less efficient. Those opinions may not make sense to you, but maybe their local meta is different than yours. Maybe they play on planet bowling ball...or with heavy line of sight terrain.
Maybe the BatRep you just watched wasn't a battle between two evenly competent opponents. Maybe the dice played a bigger part than normal...
Either way, cut each other some slack, because I'm sure the answer is something more akin to "at times, this unit / tactic be great" than "this unit / tactic is always amazing / garbage"
The DC can be devastating, but I find the stars have to align too much to justify their price tag. And putting expensive gear on one wound models seems insane in 8th ed. I have to rely on my opponent to overreact to the DC to get good value out of them. I don't like that.
Martel732 wrote: The DC can be devastating, but I find the stars have to align too much to justify their price tag. And putting expensive gear on one wound models seems insane in 8th ed. I have to rely on my opponent to overreact to the DC to get good value out of them. I don't like that.
How have the Inceptors been working out, if you're still using them? I haven't gotten any games in recently, but have some more on the table to be painted...
The inceptors are stronger vs hordes but still weak vs other marines. The inceptors really butcher hordes making a SG strike turn 3 very doable. I can also deep strike them turn 2 if it's not clear where I need them at the beginning. They can also redeploy and shoot enemy off an objective. They just don't live vs marines.
Voidwraith wrote: Those opinions may not make sense to you, but maybe their local meta is different than yours. Maybe they play on planet bowling ball...or with heavy line of sight terrain.
Then Martel should explain these things instead of just saying that something cannot work without explanation.
Maybe the BatRep you just watched wasn't a battle between two evenly competent opponents.
The one we brought up was played at the top table at a GT both players were 4-0 and would have had high scores in those wins. You can't get much more evenly matched.
Maybe the dice played a bigger part than normal...
Read/watch the battle report for yourself and count the rolls.
" started my DC onboard, but actually charged through a ruin T4. "
How were they still alive?
They sat screened in a backfield ruin for two turn on an objective out of line of sight. My opponent realised that I wasn't coming for him with my units and only tried to score my objectives. He engaged my center board with my SG in a L shaped ruin T3. When I dropped my other SG and counter attacked and T4 I just aligned Lemartes so that I could uwof DC 9" away behind a ruin and bolster my presence in the center and clear his threats along with my characters and alive SG. Took his teeth in melee when he eventually brought his army in the center. It might have been different game if he would have tried to take the center board T1/T2, but he waited my aggressive charge and tried to maximize the overwatch strat, but I didn't fall in that trap.
Fyi, we play with very dense urban terrain, which helps BA greatly.
"It might have been different game if he would have tried to take the center board T1/T2, but he waited my aggressive charge and tried to maximize the overwatch strat, but I didn't fall in that trap."
You beat BA by making them be aggressive because they are glass cannons. You WANT them charging you. You WANT them to commit their expensive units so you can destroy them with cheaper units. You line up your units in the order you want them charged, and then play normally. You don't sit around and wait like that.
He only had eliminators for indirect shots. I played the long game and was winning on points so he needed to engage the center more than me. I won that game against a good opponent. Mission cards etc affect a single game much, but going second and forcing your opponent to make those big moves helps. Our meta must be so different.. I have a role for my DC in my list if you don't like them, just don't use them. The point of this threat is to discuss whst has been good/mvp in your games and for me board control, target saturation and massed melee has worked for me. Needs practise, but is satisfying when you get the win or even a good game.
No one leaves home without gak loads of indirect in my meta. HIding is a cute idea for fragile units, but doesn't work for me. I really want to like DC. They were so boss in 3rd ed. Probably too good, really. They've been nerfed every edition, though. Wulfen are the new DC, and have been for some time now.
Your list sounds a lot like the one Stephen Box won with. I like assault, I guess I don't like it as much as you guys.
Martel732 wrote: No one leaves home without gak loads of indirect in my meta. HIding is a cute idea for fragile units, but doesn't work for me. I really want to like DC. They were so boss in 3rd ed. Probably too good, really. They've been nerfed every edition, though. Wulfen are the new DC, and have been for some time now.
Your list sounds a lot like the one Stephen Box won with. I like assault, I guess I don't like it as much as you guys.
If they have a lot of indirect fire then they must have it castled up on the board somewhere or it's minimally screened. If it has minimal screens then that means you should be able to clear them or use them to slingshot and wrap and trap the indirect fire models. If it's castled up, take the board and win on objectives.
Martel732 wrote: So any ideas on how to build for hordes AND marines?
Take units that are good against both types of list, play to kill hordes and survive elite lists or kill elites and survive hordes, maximize your board position to keep their firepower off your key units.
Martel732 wrote: So any ideas on how to build for hordes AND marines?
I rarely find too much of a problem against other Marine lists (note, they're still obviously strong lists but I don't think BA are any worse against them than other armies are). Sanguinary Guard and DC are both pretty good units against Marines and our characters are pretty effective at dealing with a lot of the traditional threats Marines pose from powerful characters to things like Repulsors. DC can clear screens against Marines really well and have the added advantage that Marines are survivable enough that you can often wrap and trap against screens.
Aiming to completely kill hordes is often not the approach to take. I've played against Nids quite frequently with BA and often the best play is to hold up the Gaunts as much as possible and aim to reduce them to manageable numbers. Below a certain number a lot of horde units just aren't combat effective. I've found Incursors to be very good in this role. They rapid fire T3 stuff then charge in and can often disrupt enemies enough to give you the space you need to establish board control. They probably die in return but if you can shoot/charge a couple of units, maybe tag one more to force a fall back and then absorb a bunch of firepower in return it's usually a worthwhile trade. My own army also includes no heavy armour, which often means a lot of points in many horde armies go to waste as they have no good targets for AT weapons.
It's basically an entire army based around wrap-and-trap while also taking advantage of ITC's magic boxes to protect units like Death Company. I think the meta before the lockdown was still skewed towards SM with a lot of smallish units of Intercessors who are prime candidates for wrap-and-trap because you can probably kill 5, then grab a nearby unit and pin them in combat to protect your dudes. Given that most SM armies are heavily shooting based the idea was to shut down the shooting as early as possible either by tagging it in combat or staying out of LoS. The SG then provided counter-punch on the turn they come down. Shooting would just dilute the close combat punch too much so it's not required.
The plan seems fairly simple but I have to say I'm a little confused about what the plan is if you don't go first to get Forlorn Fury off. Seems like you're left relying too much on those 8+ charge rolls from DS at that point. Must work though as he's done well with it at a couple of tournaments so there are obviously ways around the issues above.
I guess my question to you would be what role do you think shooting would fulfil in that army? Why do you need shooting over more close combat?
Because I was playing vs a larger variety of foes. I was still facing 120+ models about 1/3 of the time.
Also, wrap and trap with 1W model is easily thwarted by psykers and counter charges. The only mirror match I had after the BA boost I easily won because I killed his DC with a 10 man intercessor squad on a counter charge. My FNP inceptor squad butchered all his little scouts, too.
I guess shooting has no role in Box's list, but it seems like strong screens stop it one way or the other. I also have no idea what it does vs flying screens like Tau.
I think against IG you want to see screens. The plan is likely to kill one unit and wrap the other. If they're not close enough to do that they're not really effective screens. Against opponents who have decent countercharge the plan is probably to do as much damage as possible with the DC, both in terms of kills and disruption, then likely lose them in the next combat phase. That's an acceptable trade-off. Very few armies will be able to Smite enough DC to remove the whole unit. No idea what the plan is against Tau. Maybe charge and kill the screen and spend 3CP to fight against the real targets.
This army is also pretty much exclusively used in ITC conditions where it easily gets things like Engineers and Recon and often gets enough board control to get the Hold More bonus point too. It's killy but I thin kit's the board control that makes it successful.
If the Bulls charge your DC, great. You can countercharge them with SG. I'm pretty sure the BA list in question defeated a Tau gunline on its way to winning a tournament so there's clearly a path to victory there.
I think your problem is that you keep throwing out reasons why something won't work and don't seem to consider the ways it can work. You've obviously made your mind up about the army and, honestly, discussions with you about it basically devolve into a back and forth where one person tries to explain how something works and you just throw up a bunch of scenarios where it won't It's kind of frustrating, TBH, and not something I have much interest in continuing. Suffice it to say, BA are a viable tournament army able to beat any other viable tournament army from what I can tell. They have bad matchups, like many armies, but nothing they can't overcome..
1Ksons and GK can both smite DC out of tripoints. I've seen it happen.
True but the Psychic phase happens after the movement phase. Even if the manage to smite away the lock, they will not be able to withdraw from combat on that turn meaning the BAs can't be shot and will get to attack in melee.
Also neither 1KSons nor GK were exactly rocking the meta before lockdown. PA4 may well change that but we have not had a chance to really judge its effects on the meta properly yet. I have only faced GKs once since PA4 and I stomped them much the same as I did before.
Can anyone explain to me the new rules for BA - specifically the red thirst & savage echos.
I'm looking to have a detachment of tanks from Astra Militarum + a deatchment from Blood Angels. Would this prohibit savage echos but red thirst still works? Am I missing anything else or do I have that wrong too?
A general summary of any major changes would be grand too? Is Mephiston now on par with a Smash Captain?
Hey y’all, what do we think of Quake Bolts as a relic? I’ve been mulling over the idea of giving it to a Captain with a JP, given his movement he can follow around DC or SG and give a +1 to hit plus rerolls. I thought about a Storm Shield as well to keep him alive longer but maybe going cheapest is the best.
What do you guys think about this? Fairly cheap at 93 pts, 103 if you take SS, to make every single unit in our army even better a combat, obviously not at once but I think playing slow, strategic ripping and tearing, is the best method for us BA. I was thinking he could be run with some cheap JP units to screen him as well, maybe 5 Assault Marines or so. That way he could be in the fray providing his reroll bubble but not be dependent on his 3++ to save everything.
Sorry if this has gone over before I looked in the past few pages and didn’t see any talk of it.
I think they have some strong potential, I’m struggling to find the right way to run it as I’m unsure if this is something to build a list around or if this is just a side note and a bonus factor to the army’s goals. The fact that it’s only one shot per turn makes me think this isn’t anything to focus on too hard as only 1 unit will be getting the debuff. Maybe just something to help kill more and guarentee a unit wipe when SG or DC charge in
I like the look of Quake Bolts. I would be tempted to take them on a Phobos Captain dedicated to buffing my shooting units. His ability to snipe Characters meaning you can pick out dangerous targets like Daemon Princes without having to get close to them.
trevant wrote: I think they have some strong potential, I’m struggling to find the right way to run it as I’m unsure if this is something to build a list around or if this is just a side note and a bonus factor to the army’s goals. The fact that it’s only one shot per turn makes me think this isn’t anything to focus on too hard as only 1 unit will be getting the debuff. Maybe just something to help kill more and guarentee a unit wipe when SG or DC charge in
Or to make weaker units more effective. Piling on more overkill seems silly. Especially when half the charges intentionally kill nothing. They don't go in a current BA list. They go in a future meta where we must bring shooting to compete and therefore weaker CC elements.
Mephy gets the good stuff to cast quickening....
