Emicrania wrote: I feel like space Marines in general are an entry army but require a lot of skills to be played right. Every mistake is very, very costly.
Playing then competitively requires a lot of training and planning.
I feel like other army are more forgiving and easier to play good and learn less steeply.
BA should be well playable at a higher level since they have a large variety of units, more than any other chapter.
Another question: How about the inclusion of Armiger Helverins or a Knight to bolster a BA army?
Variety only matters if they are good enough or get good enough buffs. Not like marine armies overall lack different units and options for those units. If options matteref Marines would be king and knights suck.
There are some rather good units in BA but we lack good long range options. Doesnt matter if you can kill anything on the charge with your expensive units if you cant shoot away the cheap screening units in the way.
I feel my BA list is much stronger when I include loyal 32 with some mortars and wyverns to clear the way. That is something BA cant really do on its own that well since whirlwinds are so much worse point for point than IG artillery that it isnt even worth it to try.
Helverins are pretty tasty and bring some firepower that Marines tend to lack with both high RoF and the flat 3 damage. They are great at taking out multi-wound models with invulnerable saves like Necron Wraiths, DE skimmers and the like.
If you just want chaff clearance there are better options but Helverins certainly fill a valuable role against certain types of targets.
Spending 175pts for Dante so he can give rerolls for whirlwinds. It is just cheaper and way more effective to get loyal 32 for free and then buy mortars/wyverns/basilisks instead of 3 whirlwinds. With rerolls to hit the whirlwind is almost at the same level as the guard counterparts but you have a 175pts melee character babysitting them in a corner out of LOS. Having 32 bodies and 5cp doing stuff instead of wasting Dante is way better.
Dante is in a bad place. His reroll ability is best with ranged which isnt what BA is good at and you just waste a lot of points doing nothing if thats how you use him. And for melee we already have many ways to get rerolls to failed to hit rolls, especially for sanguinary guard which he has 0 synergy whit for some reason. If he at least gave the ability to reroll any hit so you could reroll even with -to hit modifiers he would be good. Thats what I feel I need, not an overpriced Chaptermaster that can only do one thing while paying for 2.
I said it was for lists that were already using him.
I think you overestimate BA melee ability. There are plenty of lists out there I'd rather shoot than try to fight with what? DC and SG? Dante makes a pretty good sheriff for ranged heavy lists.
I'd say shooting with Dante is about as effective as charging in with our overcosted melee units. Maybe better, actually.
Dante with the new repulsor executioner could be usable, but we cant use the executioner. You cant replace <CHAPTER> with <BLOOD ANGELS>. And since vigilus defiant we are no longer space marines. And with the new primaris geneseed we may lose red thirst and black rage. It doesnt look good for BA.
Martel732 wrote: I said it was for lists that were already using him.
I think you overestimate BA melee ability. There are plenty of lists out there I'd rather shoot than try to fight with what? DC and SG? Dante makes a pretty good sheriff for ranged heavy lists.
I'd say shooting with Dante is about as effective as charging in with our overcosted melee units. Maybe better, actually.
But if you are mostly just gonna stand back and shoot why not just play your BA with Ravenguard or any other chapters rules that favor that. Just say that for this engagement they are using a different doctrine since they are elite soldiers and know many ways to fight.
Emicrania wrote: Doesn't a 3d6 charge and fight again allows BA to charge over chaffs and land on the second shooting line?
In practice, no. The opponent defeats that in their movement phase. No one is falling for it. Remember you cant declare a charge beyond 12", no matter what you can roll. Most opponrnts use 4" spacing to take away the second rank.
Martel732 wrote: I said it was for lists that were already using him.
I think you overestimate BA melee ability. There are plenty of lists out there I'd rather shoot than try to fight with what? DC and SG? Dante makes a pretty good sheriff for ranged heavy lists.
I'd say shooting with Dante is about as effective as charging in with our overcosted melee units. Maybe better, actually.
But if you are mostly just gonna stand back and shoot why not just play your BA with Ravenguard or any other chapters rules that favor that. Just say that for this engagement they are using a different doctrine since they are elite soldiers and know many ways to fight.
Thats the problem, isnt it? I hate soup and souping together chapter tactics isnt worth the miniscule win% bump. Look up 40k stats. It doesnt matter how you soup marine primary lists, they are bad.
Emicrania wrote: Doesn't a 3d6 charge and fight again allows BA to charge over chaffs and land on the second shooting line?
In practice, no. The opponent defeats that in their movement phase. No one is falling for it. Remember you cant declare a charge beyond 12", no matter what you can roll. Most opponrnts use 4" spacing to take away the second rank.
Martel732 wrote: I said it was for lists that were already using him.
I think you overestimate BA melee ability. There are plenty of lists out there I'd rather shoot than try to fight with what? DC and SG? Dante makes a pretty good sheriff for ranged heavy lists.
I'd say shooting with Dante is about as effective as charging in with our overcosted melee units. Maybe better, actually.
But if you are mostly just gonna stand back and shoot why not just play your BA with Ravenguard or any other chapters rules that favor that. Just say that for this engagement they are using a different doctrine since they are elite soldiers and know many ways to fight.
Thats the problem, isnt it? I hate soup and souping together chapter tactics isnt worth the miniscule win% bump. Look up 40k stats. It doesnt matter how you soup marine primary lists, they are bad.
40k stats is a bad resource for 90% of this community. It's no surprise you're peddling it, but it's irrelevant.
Lists are one thing - the general is far more important. Get better at the game before complaining about the list win rate.
Yes, I just hit you with a much deserved "git gud"
The problem is, if you're NOT taking advantage of BA's very powerful chapter tactics you're basically using a very subpar unit. As others stated, marines *are* all bad so I rather try to actually make use of the advantages BA have.
Which means, no vehicles except Dreads and termite drills (surprisingly effective).
Kirasu wrote: The problem is, if you're NOT taking advantage of BA's very powerful chapter tactics you're basically using a very subpar unit. As others stated, marines *are* all bad so I rather try to actually make use of the advantages BA have.
Which means, no vehicles except Dreads and termite drills (surprisingly effective).
I indeed play 2 Quadra laser contemptors and 1 leviathan with double stormcannon. How are the termite drills effective for you? what do you put inside? I m really interested!
Kirasu wrote: The problem is, if you're NOT taking advantage of BA's very powerful chapter tactics you're basically using a very subpar unit. As others stated, marines *are* all bad so I rather try to actually make use of the advantages BA have.
Did i miss something about a rule change for BA ?? Our chapter tactic only works when we charge, get charged, or perform a heroic intervention. When we fail our charge our chapter tactic does nothing. When we don't get charged our chapter tactic does nothing. And it does nothing in the next round when still in melee after we charge, got charged, heroically intervened. When we fall back we can't charge, again our chapter tactic is useless. Our chapter tactic is pretty useless on dreads because they wound everything T6- on 2s already.
Kirasu wrote: The problem is, if you're NOT taking advantage of BA's very powerful chapter tactics you're basically using a very subpar unit. As others stated, marines *are* all bad so I rather try to actually make use of the advantages BA have.
Did i miss something about a rule change for BA ?? Our chapter tactic only works when we charge, get charged, or perform a heroic intervention. When we fail our charge our chapter tactic does nothing. When we don't get charged our chapter tactic does nothing. And it does nothing in the next round when still in melee after we charge, got charged, heroically intervened. When we fall back we can't charge, again our chapter tactic is useless. Our chapter tactic is pretty useless on dreads because they wound everything T6- on 2s already.
So why else would you play with the BA rules instead of using Ravenguard rules? Or any other chapter. Just because they are read with blood drops doesnt mean you cant use better rules and still play your blood angels models. Sure you cant use the BA specific stuff then but as you said they are all bad so why use them? If you dont want to play with DC, SG and smashy HQs or focusing on melee, why are you intentionaly handicapping yourself for no good reason?
No one bats an eye for using other chapters rules, especially when marines are in a bad place. If BA, SW and UM were all top 3 but UM nr 1 and BA nr 3then some people would perhaps feel you are just WAAC if younplayed your BA as UM or SW each game instead of what they are actually painted as. Or perhaps if you are souping and using different rules for the models but as long as its mono marines only an donkey-cave would care.
I dont play BA anymore. Our chapter tactic is good for one turn, we have to get all units into melee, and spend every CP we have to maximize damage. If we dont do enough damage we die like flies and lose the game. Thats just ridiculous.
Reivax26 wrote: As a Dark Angels player who is toying with the idea of adding Blood Angels to my army I find the way you guys talk about your army to be amusing.
We have 2 builds that are semi functional and both get blown off the board by any decent top tier army.
No Grey Knights are supposedly worse. Anyway our problem is that we can fight a lot of armies pretty well, especially the Ravenwing lists but the Soup lists with multiple Knights in them are our kryptonite. We just don't have the firepower to crack them.
Gencon article is up. Look's like we may be getting a supplement. Chapter trait's look to be making a return for successors. Angels of death rule includes ATSKNF, bolter discipline and a new shock assault rule that gives +1 attack when charging, charged or heroic intervention. That's a nice wee buff.
Emicrania wrote: Doesn't a 3d6 charge and fight again allows BA to charge over chaffs and land on the second shooting line?
In practice, no. The opponent defeats that in their movement phase. No one is falling for it. Remember you cant declare a charge beyond 12", no matter what you can roll. Most opponrnts use 4" spacing to take away the second rank.
Martel732 wrote: I said it was for lists that were already using him.
I think you overestimate BA melee ability. There are plenty of lists out there I'd rather shoot than try to fight with what? DC and SG? Dante makes a pretty good sheriff for ranged heavy lists.
I'd say shooting with Dante is about as effective as charging in with our overcosted melee units. Maybe better, actually.
But if you are mostly just gonna stand back and shoot why not just play your BA with Ravenguard or any other chapters rules that favor that. Just say that for this engagement they are using a different doctrine since they are elite soldiers and know many ways to fight.
Thats the problem, isnt it? I hate soup and souping together chapter tactics isnt worth the miniscule win% bump. Look up 40k stats. It doesnt matter how you soup marine primary lists, they are bad.
40k stats is a bad resource for 90% of this community. It's no surprise you're peddling it, but it's irrelevant.
Lists are one thing - the general is far more important. Get better at the game before complaining about the list win rate.
Yes, I just hit you with a much deserved "git gud"
You funny, how's your Ranking in ITC?
Because I'm doing pretty good with a 40k stats inspired ork list that nobody use nomore.
I got gold twice last two RTT. How about you?
That is like any other magic/HS/DotA/LOL etc site where people can get inspired to have a backbone for their army.
Then they have to actually play it and knows how to play it.
I don't peddle it because I dont give a damn if you use it or not, is called using a source, I guess you never heard about it, see "...90% of the community..."
I wanted an opinion of "experienced BA players", if you have nothing constructive to say about the list, just keep on complaining about life without getting me involved. You are unnecessary.
On a side note than the keyboard warrior, don't you guys think that the right amount of LOS block on boards and the new shock rule would improve the viability of BA a notch?
Really looking forward to play some RTT with them but until the new compendium comes out, the SoS will keep collecting dust unfortunately.
Yes, shock rule helps, but not with the CORE problem, which is getting shot to pieces. There's always going to be a limit to LoS terrain, imo, and it actually hurts you vs some lists. The biggest difference between 3rd ed BA and 8th ed BA is durability by far.
I know I live in a dream world, but I would be so happy if Reivers would get -1 ap to their melee and encarmine weapon point costs to 7 or 8p. Power fists are just way better point wise.
No one uses reivers, cool models.. Not every army have super overwatch, so auto-hit weapons and Tau are the menace for me atleast. Regarding overwatch. I agree that 9" charge is hit or miss, but we have ways to make almost certain charges. Although some armies can make a lot wider scale alpha/beta charges. Our gaming group try to mitigate with dense urban terrain.
Spado wrote: what made BA so durable back in third edition compared to today?
DC were the OG FNP unit with a 4+ FNP that was negated by instant death or ignore armor mechanics (power weapons).
Marines have same stats as today except enemy firepower was not nearly as high. Towards the end of 3rd, starcannon spam became a thing and it was the beginning of the game today.
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Xirax wrote: I know I live in a dream world, but I would be so happy if Reivers would get -1 ap to their melee and encarmine weapon point costs to 7 or 8p. Power fists are just way better point wise.
No one uses reivers, cool models.. Not every army have super overwatch, so auto-hit weapons and Tau are the menace for me atleast. Regarding overwatch. I agree that 9" charge is hit or miss, but we have ways to make almost certain charges. Although some armies can make a lot wider scale alpha/beta charges. Our gaming group try to mitigate with dense urban terrain.
I use reivers with phobos libbys. Gives me an 8" charge, and their carbines reroll misses and ignore cover.
Spado wrote: what made BA so durable back in third edition compared to today?
Nothing made them more durable per se (although Death Company had the equivalent of a 4+ FNP I think).
What they did have was buckets of offense. Leaping out of fast moving Rhinos and assaulting on Turn 1 was a thing. Given that BAs got +1S and +1 Initiative, they normally killed a lot of stuff on the charge before the enemy could fight back.
The old adage applies that sometimes a good offense is the best defense. Your enemy cannot kill you if they are dead!
Spado wrote: what made BA so durable back in third edition compared to today?
Firepower wasn't nearly as big back in 3rd ed. It was edition where T7 W3 was actually tough target. And where 3 lascannons was serious firepower. And 3+ save actually meant something.
Ability to blow up stuff has gone up, # of marines on board hasn't. Add to that worse cover and terrain rules.
Spado wrote: what made BA so durable back in third edition compared to today?
Nothing made them more durable per se (although Death Company had the equivalent of a 4+ FNP I think).
What they did have was buckets of offense. Leaping out of fast moving Rhinos and assaulting on Turn 1 was a thing. Given that BAs got +1S and +1 Initiative, they normally killed a lot of stuff on the charge before the enemy could fight back.
The old adage applies that sometimes a good offense is the best defense. Your enemy cannot kill you if they are dead!
Add to that ability to consolidiate into new combat giving 100% immunity to enemy shooting.
We will get new rules as free pdf download. Now i wonder if this is good or bad ? Are we going to fade away ? Why else wouldnt GW make a supplement book for us, like for other SM chapters ?
Could a sanguinary guard bomb have more use now? They received a flat 50% damage boost from the shock assault rule it seems! Arm an entire squad with power fists, throw in one of the many many buffing characters we have and annihilate something with descent of angels
DoomMouse wrote: Could a sanguinary guard bomb have more use now? They received a flat 50% damage boost from the shock assault rule it seems! Arm an entire squad with power fists, throw in one of the many many buffing characters we have and annihilate something with descent of angels
I have a unit of ten scouts with combat blades and bolt pistols. They'll now hit home on the charge with 30 attacks, wounding T3 on 2+, T4 on 3+ and T5 on 4+. No save modifiers, but that is nothing to be sneezed at. That is without even put a Sanguinary priest near them.
Veterans of previous editions may remember that the Ultramarines had a form of this ability a number of years back. Now, it doesn’t just apply to them, but to all of the Chapters (and any successor Chapters you’ve created) that use the rules from Codex: Space Marines. Here’s how it works…
p5freak wrote: Its not unclear. BA uses rules from codex SM.
Veterans of previous editions may remember that the Ultramarines had a form of this ability a number of years back. Now, it doesn’t just apply to them, but to all of the Chapters (and any successor Chapters you’ve created) that use the rules from Codex: Space Marines. Here’s how it works…
No they dont. They get to use some of the datasheets, and Shock Assault (added in a PDF update to their codex). The section before the one you're quoting lays out how DA/BA/SW interact with C:SM 2.0
p5freak wrote: Its not unclear. BA uses rules from codex SM.
Veterans of previous editions may remember that the Ultramarines had a form of this ability a number of years back. Now, it doesn’t just apply to them, but to all of the Chapters (and any successor Chapters you’ve created) that use the rules from Codex: Space Marines. Here’s how it works…
No they dont. They get to use some of the datasheets, and Shock Assault (added in a PDF update to their codex). The section before the one you're quoting lays out how DA/BA/SW interact with C:SM 2.0
Method 2. Share YouTube Video at Specific Time by Modifying URL
The second method for sharing YouTube video at specific time is by adding a string of code to the URL. Remember the timestamp that we find in Method 1? Yes, the secret is in the timestamp at the end of a YouTube video URL. Here we are going to elaborate the time string.
Looking back to Step 3, Method 1, the sharable link is added with a string “?t=24s”, which means that the video will start playing from 0:24. Accordingly, if you want it to start at 3:02, then you should add “?t=3m2s” to the link. As easy as a piece of cake, isn’t it?
However, if you compare the URL in the SHARE window and the one in the address bard of your browser, you’ll find that the first is shorter than the latter. If you want to share a YouTube video at specific time by modifying the full URL in address bar, then you need to replace “?” with “&”.
Xirax wrote: I know I live in a dream world, but I would be so happy if Reivers would get -1 ap to their melee and encarmine weapon point costs to 7 or 8p. Power fists are just way better point wise.
No one uses reivers, cool models.. Not every army have super overwatch, so auto-hit weapons and Tau are the menace for me at least. Regarding overwatch. I agree that 9" charge is hit or miss, but we have ways to make almost certain charges. Although some armies can make a lot wider scale alpha/beta charges. Our gaming group try to mitigate with dense urban terrain.
I'm a total noob when it comes to BA as I'm just starting to build my army, and to a lesser extent 40k as a whole. However, I personally love reivers and have been looking for a way to fit them into a list in a decent manner. My idea is that I'll stick 5-7 on foot armed with the knives (and possibly a carbine on the sergeant instead of a pistol depending on if I feel I really need more volume of fire or that 1 AP more) in with my primaris chaplain and a powersword or Assault boltrifle lieutenant as a solid CC core or second wave assault block once my jump units have gone to work. I plan on taking the lieutenant and chaplain in my ground forces to support my intercessors and provide a solid objective grabbing and shooty anchor for my jump units that isn't afraid of CC, so taking them isn't a waste intended just to buff the unit. With the new shock troops rules coming out for Astartes, they're putting out four attacks each on or receiving a charge, hitting on threes and rerolling all fails, and finally wounding T3 units on a 2+ or T4 units on a 3+, rerolling ones to wound (effectively giving full rerolls against T3). Add the attacks from the two characters and they're easily shredding most infantry units in one turn, especially T3 or lightly armored opponents. Their terrifying auras help mop up survivors in the moral phase , and shock grenades usually prevent overwatch any time they or anyone else is charging a unit within six inches of them. On top of this, they have two wounds each, meaning my characters have a solid wall of wounds that need to be chewed through before enemy shooting can get through to my CC and buffing characters, increasing their chances of staying on the table and making their points back one way or another.
Are their better units at any of these things, or perhaps even most of them? Possibly. However, in this situation they'll serve well enough I think they'll contribute and won't be the joke of a unit most people make them out to be.
Sterling191 wrote: And I am understandably delighted to be wrong. Cheers folks.
Hats to you ser for yer Sportmanship.
Martel732 wrote:It's GW rule interpretation of a product not released. Mistakes will be made.
Indeed. Plus I'm (for better or worse) notoriously literal when it comes to reading anything rules related that comes out of GW. If it doesnt explicitly say you can do it, I'm going to assume you cant until proven otherwise.
Gives me some hope (I know, I know, totally dangerous) that the PDF supplementals arent going to be more than just a few lines allowing non-codex chapters to access doctrines.
Literal is fine 90% of the time, but absurd readings can't be used. Like the 1+ armor thing or assault weapons *technically* not working the way we think.
So with the new Chaplain in town (+2 charge) and drop pods being a thing anyone thinking of running 2-3 squads of death company and doing a turn 1 Alpha strike with 7" Charge distances with an insane amount of attacks?
NexAddo wrote: So with the new Chaplain in town (+2 charge) and drop pods being a thing anyone thinking of running 2-3 squads of death company and doing a turn 1 Alpha strike with 7" Charge distances with an insane amount of attacks?
Sounds like awfully expensive way to get more than 1 squad doing 1st turn charge(one squad can do it even more reliably already). Especially since T1 you are often limited to charging screens anyway. Against some armies could be nasty(necrons for example struggle to screen that much) but vs others less so. Not sure how much orks for example worry about pods sending waves of death company vs grots. IG has infantry squads to absorb those. Other marines scouts or force you be 12" away. Tyranids have plenty cheap bodies etc. Eldars could worry a bit about that I guess.
tacticals is another option for the pods at +1A on the charge assuming we get that rule and a 7+ charge through the chaplain their reasonably effective at screen clearence and less of a pts investment and more flexible if you want to play the objective game.
Vs orks the value is cageing them 3 pods blocks a wave the contents blocks the next wave its T3 before they are really across the board
NexAddo wrote: So with the new Chaplain in town (+2 charge) and drop pods being a thing anyone thinking of running 2-3 squads of death company and doing a turn 1 Alpha strike with 7" Charge distances with an insane amount of attacks?
Sounds very expensive points wise (~500 for two drop pods, two 9 model units of DC and the chaplain) to kill some chaff units. BA will get new rules as a free PDF download, i would wait for it, and see what changes. Maybe our JP units will be allowed T1 deepstrikes as well, with a stratagem, for more points ?
tneva82 wrote: Against some armies could be nasty(necrons for example struggle to screen that much) but vs others less so.
Necrons can screen pretty good with scarabs.
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U02dah4 wrote: tacticals is another option for the pods at +1A on the charge assuming we get that rule and a 7+ charge through the chaplain their reasonably effective at screen clearence and less of a pts investment and more flexible if you want to play the objective game.
Vs orks the value is cageing them 3 pods blocks a wave the contents blocks the next wave its T3 before they are really across the board
I would prefer DC over tacs. They are worth the additional points. Orks dont care about caging them in, they will da jump out of it.
U02dah4 wrote: tacticals is another option for the pods at +1A on the charge assuming we get that rule and a 7+ charge through the chaplain their reasonably effective at screen clearence and less of a pts investment and more flexible if you want to play the objective game.
Vs orks the value is cageing them 3 pods blocks a wave the contents blocks the next wave its T3 before they are really across the board
Except orks are primarily shooting with tellyporting boyz. In particular with new marines trying to walk across board is suicide. It was already before and more so now.
So ork deployment zone has plenty of grots to screen shooting units and that's about it. Whom you are going to cage? Lootas? They aren't coming out of dz anyway. Nor are grots before they have done their job of keeping assault elements out of their gunline.
And at worst you give them unit to hide from your guns. Pod can't move out of combat so enemy can use it to do benefit of tripoint with higher chance of doing it.
Which is more expensive screen than others and contend heavily with other FA choices(necrons struggle to have more than 1 det with their generally rather poor and expensive characters). Getting more than 1 unit of scarabs is tough and with 1 there's limit on how many you can screen. Especially if you don't want to be in super tight bubble which makes easier to box you in and make mess with tri pointing etc once you reach.
I was suggesting podding the tacticals not walking them
Drop 2-3 pods 19-29 tacs + chaplain
Assuming storm bolter 46-68 BG shots
Backed up by 21 CC attacks from each tac squad that make it in to CC + chaplain
Frontline is then either tied up or dead and your tacs present an outer screen so the pods cant be easily charged so t1 they kill tacs and t2 pods but you have effectively boxed them.
Sure their are ways out for flying armies or if they get T1 but then you switch to dropping on objectives
Considering 2 tac filled and 1 DC (bg PS) filled pod (im taking 3 tac squads for CP anyway so its only 5 extra)
The pod doesnt really effect tri pointing if your marines are 8" away from it plus if they have caged your army they are going to be targetted any thing that survives is a bonus as it causes further delays
Which is more expensive screen than others and contend heavily with other FA choices(necrons struggle to have more than 1 det with their generally rather poor and expensive characters). Getting more than 1 unit of scarabs is tough and with 1 there's limit on how many you can screen. Especially if you don't want to be in super tight bubble which makes easier to box you in and make mess with tri pointing etc once you reach.
Necron scarabs are as point efficient as any other screen. A base has 3W, which is 4.33 pts per wound. I play crons, and its no problem to add 2x9 scarabs to a 3 detachment army at 2k, i even play 2x9 scarabs at 1.5k.
U02dah4 wrote: The pod doesnt really effect tri pointing if your marines are 8" away from it plus if they have caged your army they are going to be targetted any thing that survives is a bonus as it causes further delays
But caged WHAT? If you are talking about orks remember only units that care about being caged are either da jumping or tellyporting. They are coming OVER those pods. The units in ork deployment zones are stuff that won't move anywhere ANYWAY. They are mek guns(2" move...YEY! What a speedy guy!) or lootas which don't want to move generally anyway due to -1 to hit.
Ork boyz? Tellyporta or da jump so they don't care about being caged. Nobs? Likewise. Basically anything that wants into combat will not be there to begin with. They are in tellyporta or in some safe corner with plenty of LOS blocking terrain and some grots so your tac's won't be anywhere near and then they either charge you(if you are close enough) or da jump.
Caging against orks don't work because there's nothing to be caged. Don't think orks as army that tries to footslog into combat because they won't. That's been suicide ever since codex dropped(well 8th ed but before that orks had no alternative). Orks don't footslog. They come out of reserves just like your drop pods except rather than points they pay CP for it. Plus option to jump units around with da jump.
I need some advice.
I have a small BA vanguard detachment, that comes along my guard army.
But now i want to move on to have a true BA army without others.
I have a captain, a sanguinary priest, 5 cataphractii terminators, 5 DC models, and 5 sanguinary guard.
I really like the SG and DC and want to build around them.
what to add?
I was thinking of something in line of this list:
Death Company [27 PL, 380pts]
Selections: Jump Pack [3 PL, 45pts]
Death Company Marine [17pts]
Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company Marine [17pts]
Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company Marine [17pts]
Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company Marine [17pts]
Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company Marine [17pts]
Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company Marine [17pts]
Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company Marine [17pts]
Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company Marine [17pts]
Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company Marine [17pts]
Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company Marine [17pts]
Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company Marine [33pts]
Selections: Thunder hammer [16pts]
Death Company Marine [33pts]
Selections: Thunder hammer [16pts]
Death Company Marine [33pts]
Selections: Thunder hammer [16pts]
Death Company Marine [33pts]
Selections: Thunder hammer [16pts]
Death Company Marine [33pts]
Selections: Thunder hammer [16pts]
Sanguinary Ancient [6 PL, 83pts]
Selections: 6. Selfless Valour, Encarmine sword [12pts], Inferno pistol [7pts], Standard of Sacrifice, Warlord
Plan is to come down turn 2 with the complete vanguard detachment + captain and attack the biggest threats
Problem is that a want to deepstrike to much units and probably have to keep more behind (max 50% in deepstrike?)
What is my biggest weakness?
What should i change? Any suggestions?
How to move from this to a 2000 point list?
U02dah4 wrote: The pod doesnt really effect tri pointing if your marines are 8" away from it plus if they have caged your army they are going to be targetted any thing that survives is a bonus as it causes further delays
But caged WHAT? If you are talking about orks remember only units that care about being caged are either da jumping or tellyporting. They are coming OVER those pods. The units in ork deployment zones are stuff that won't move anywhere ANYWAY. They are mek guns(2" move...YEY! What a speedy guy!) or lootas which don't want to move generally anyway due to -1 to hit.
Ork boyz? Tellyporta or da jump so they don't care about being caged. Nobs? Likewise. Basically anything that wants into combat will not be there to begin with. They are in tellyporta or in some safe corner with plenty of LOS blocking terrain and some grots so your tac's won't be anywhere near and then they either charge you(if you are close enough) or da jump.
Caging against orks don't work because there's nothing to be caged. Don't think orks as army that tries to footslog into combat because they won't. That's been suicide ever since codex dropped(well 8th ed but before that orks had no alternative). Orks don't footslog. They come out of reserves just like your drop pods except rather than points they pay CP for it. Plus option to jump units around with da jump.
I wasnt talking about orks specifically i dont build for them because well at the last major i went to there were two lists of orks and only one was competant meta wise i wont likely face them. However my points stands if I cant cage you play the objectives and even one pod of tacs can area deny a huge area
Hello brothers and sisters of Sanguinius, quick question. Do you guys think one of the new War Walkers or a second Redemptor is a better choice in a Primaris force of BAngels?
Hi all, reading further up the thread people seem to be assuming BA are going to be getting various of the new marine stuff including doctrines and access to various standard marine units.
Whilst I'm sure when we get our next codex we will gain some new stuff I believe the update PDF that has been mentioned will only be giving BA units Shock assault and adding the next vanguard marine units to our army list.
I'm hoping they alter our points to match the new marine one (not looking forward to 40pt thunder hammers) as they really should match. They should also give us chapter tactics on our vehicles but I don't see the point as I can't see them changing our chapter tactic.
Has anyone seen any actual information about it will contain as the only confirmed parts are Shock assault and vanguard units.
I need some advice.
I have a small BA vanguard detachment, that comes along my guard army.
But now i want to move on to have a true BA army without others.
Tiberius501 wrote:Hello brothers and sisters of Sanguinius, quick question. Do you guys think one of the new War Walkers or a second Redemptor is a better choice in a Primaris force of BAngels?
You should wait until the new free PDF BA rules come out, hopefully in the near future, around the time when the new codex SM is released next saturday.
I need some advice.
I have a small BA vanguard detachment, that comes along my guard army.
But now i want to move on to have a true BA army without others.
Tiberius501 wrote:Hello brothers and sisters of Sanguinius, quick question. Do you guys think one of the new War Walkers or a second Redemptor is a better choice in a Primaris force of BAngels?
You should wait until the new free PDF BA rules come out, hopefully in the near future, around the time when the new codex SM is released next saturday.
WisdomLS wrote: Hi all, reading further up the thread people seem to be assuming BA are going to be getting various of the new marine stuff including doctrines and access to various standard marine units.
Whilst I'm sure when we get our next codex we will gain some new stuff I believe the update PDF that has been mentioned will only be giving BA units Shock assault and adding the next vanguard marine units to our army list.
I'm hoping they alter our points to match the new marine one (not looking forward to 40pt thunder hammers) as they really should match. They should also give us chapter tactics on our vehicles but I don't see the point as I can't see them changing our chapter tactic.
Has anyone seen any actual information about it will contain as the only confirmed parts are Shock assault and vanguard units.
This is my take on the matter as well and it sucks. Marines were already a better army than BA and now with the new dex it's eldar vs gk levels of disparity. I play BA, SW and DW so this triple hurts.
Chapter tactics on vehicles would be a double edged sword as it would apply to our dreads too so a shooting tactic would hurt my librarian (that I just finally got painted...)
All that being said it looks like my BA will be some sort of codex successor until GW gets their poop in a group.
WisdomLS wrote: Hi all, reading further up the thread people seem to be assuming BA are going to be getting various of the new marine stuff including doctrines and access to various standard marine units.
Whilst I'm sure when we get our next codex we will gain some new stuff I believe the update PDF that has been mentioned will only be giving BA units Shock assault and adding the next vanguard marine units to our army list.
I'm hoping they alter our points to match the new marine one (not looking forward to 40pt thunder hammers) as they really should match. They should also give us chapter tactics on our vehicles but I don't see the point as I can't see them changing our chapter tactic.
Has anyone seen any actual information about it will contain as the only confirmed parts are Shock assault and vanguard units.
This is my take on the matter as well and it sucks. Marines were already a better army than BA and now with the new dex it's eldar vs gk levels of disparity. I play BA, SW and DW so this triple hurts.
Chapter tactics on vehicles would be a double edged sword as it would apply to our dreads too so a shooting tactic would hurt my librarian (that I just finally got painted...)
All that being said it looks like my BA will be some sort of codex successor until GW gets their poop in a group.
That's my point. In the new marine codex they changed the traits to apply to infantry vs. vehicles. For example the Ravenguard lost -1 to hit on their dreads because their dreads now get treated like vehicles and get their vehicle version of the chapter tactic.
If they do this for BA our chapter tactic will either be trash for shooting vehicles or will be trash for our melee dreads unless GW is very careful about the wording of the vehicle tactic.
You can give your intercessors a free 30" grenade launcher, and the sarge can get a free chainsword. You are losing the BS 2+ on your captains when you dont give them a ranged weapon. A combi plasma allows them to overcharge and fire twice after deepstriking, re-rolling 1s. They do nothing when they fail their charge. You are not really taking advantage of red thirst, not many melee units in your list. Your long range dakka dreads would benefit more from a different chapter. Not many anti tank weapons in your list. Twin AC is only S7, not good against T7-8. Techmarine on bike with SB gets 8 bolter shots at 24", and he hits on 2+.
You can give your intercessors a free 30" grenade launcher, and the sarge can get a free chainsword. You are losing the BS 2+ on your captains when you dont give them a ranged weapon. A combi plasma allows them to overcharge and fire twice after deepstriking, re-rolling 1s. They do nothing when they fail their charge. You are not really taking advantage of red thirst, not many melee units in your list. Your long range dakka dreads would benefit more from a different chapter. Not many anti tank weapons in your list. Twin AC is only S7, not good against T7-8. Techmarine on bike with SB gets 8 bolter shots at 24", and he hits on 2+.
Right, grenade launchers for the squads and chainswords for the Sergeants are vital, same goes for a shooty weapon for the Captains.
The army is not really geared towards cc, but playing another chapter is not an option.
My experience is that S7 is quite good against most armies. So I'll leave it. Sometimes the number of shots is decisive.
WisdomLS wrote: Hi all, reading further up the thread people seem to be assuming BA are going to be getting various of the new marine stuff including doctrines and access to various standard marine units.
Whilst I'm sure when we get our next codex we will gain some new stuff I believe the update PDF that has been mentioned will only be giving BA units Shock assault and adding the next vanguard marine units to our army list.
I'm hoping they alter our points to match the new marine one (not looking forward to 40pt thunder hammers) as they really should match. They should also give us chapter tactics on our vehicles but I don't see the point as I can't see them changing our chapter tactic.
Has anyone seen any actual information about it will contain as the only confirmed parts are Shock assault and vanguard units.
Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels:
Captain in Phobos Armour
Librarian in Phobos Armour
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour
Eliminator Squad
Incursor Squad
Infiltrator Squad
Suppressor Squad
Invictor Tactical Warsuit
Impulsor
Primaris Repulsor Executioner
That's exact list blood angels(and the 2 other) are going to get. GW was kind enough to let us know in advance what units others get
The full datasheets and matched play points values for each of these units will soon be available as a free PDF download for each of these Chapters, along with the rules for the Shock Assault ability.* Essentially, if you collect one of these Chapters, you can still pick up Codex: Space Marines for all the expanded lore, background and aforementioned datasheets, but you don’t need it to add the new units to your collection and use them in battle – your codex is still fully functional!
Right, grenade launchers for the squads and chainswords for the Sergeants are vital, same goes for a shooty weapon for the Captains.
The army is not really geared towards cc, but playing another chapter is not an option.
My experience is that S7 is quite good against most armies. So I'll leave it. Sometimes the number of shots is decisive.
Ok, but be aware of deepstrikers charging your rifledreads. Some kind of screen would be nice. Maybe a unit of infiltrators who have a 12" deepstrike deny bubble ?
Right, grenade launchers for the squads and chainswords for the Sergeants are vital, same goes for a shooty weapon for the Captains.
The army is not really geared towards cc, but playing another chapter is not an option.
My experience is that S7 is quite good against most armies. So I'll leave it. Sometimes the number of shots is decisive.
Ok, but be aware of deepstrikers charging your rifledreads. Some kind of screen would be nice. Maybe a unit of infiltrators who have a 12" deepstrike deny bubble ?
When I get to larger pt levels, I'll take this into account.
I was considering going Blood Angels instead of buying the new Space Marines codex. I really like the fluff and models.
So I was wondering, how do they play ? They have +1 to wound when they charge is that right ?
Is the Baal predator worth anything (especially now with the flamestorm buff) ?
What about terminators ? I do have about 20 of them including the Space Hulk ones.
Reference those against the errata pdf. If it’s not changed in the latter than BA are still stuck with the old costs. This has happened for multiple units.
godardc wrote: I was considering going Blood Angels instead of buying the new Space Marines codex. I really like the fluff and models.
So I was wondering, how do they play ? They have +1 to wound when they charge is that right ?
Is the Baal predator worth anything (especially now with the flamestorm buff) ?
What about terminators ? I do have about 20 of them including the Space Hulk ones.
Solo BA are still low to mid tier. Baal pred is still useless, even with 12" flamestorm cannon. Termis aren't worth using, slow, to expensive and not tough enough. They need a 4+ inv or another wound, or a speed boost of some kind.
godardc wrote: I was considering going Blood Angels instead of buying the new Space Marines codex. I really like the fluff and models.
So I was wondering, how do they play ? They have +1 to wound when they charge is that right ?
Is the Baal predator worth anything (especially now with the flamestorm buff) ?
What about terminators ? I do have about 20 of them including the Space Hulk ones.
Solo BA are still low to mid tier. Baal pred is still useless, even with 12" flamestorm cannon. Termis aren't worth using, slow, to expensive and not tough enough. They need a 4+ inv or another wound, or a speed boost of some kind.
BA got better vs every list except for vanilla. If BA aren't mid, they are closer.
godardc wrote: I was considering going Blood Angels instead of buying the new Space Marines codex. I really like the fluff and models.
So I was wondering, how do they play ? They have +1 to wound when they charge is that right ?
Is the Baal predator worth anything (especially now with the flamestorm buff) ?
What about terminators ? I do have about 20 of them including the Space Hulk ones.
Solo BA are still low to mid tier. Baal pred is still useless, even with 12" flamestorm cannon. Termis aren't worth using, slow, to expensive and not tough enough. They need a 4+ inv or another wound, or a speed boost of some kind.
Tactical terminators have gotten a huge boost in 8th edition. Point reductions and now +1 attack and bolter discipline with the new rules. They have teleport strike and 2 foot range on the storm bolters all the time so not sure what your complaining about. They are a competitive unit now, they dont need anything but a skilled player.
godardc wrote: I was considering going Blood Angels instead of buying the new Space Marines codex. I really like the fluff and models.
So I was wondering, how do they play ? They have +1 to wound when they charge is that right ?
Is the Baal predator worth anything (especially now with the flamestorm buff) ?
What about terminators ? I do have about 20 of them including the Space Hulk ones.
Solo BA are still low to mid tier. Baal pred is still useless, even with 12" flamestorm cannon. Termis aren't worth using, slow, to expensive and not tough enough. They need a 4+ inv or another wound, or a speed boost of some kind.
Tactical terminators have gotten a huge boost in 8th edition. Point reductions and now +1 attack and bolter discipline with the new rules. They have teleport strike and 2 foot range on the storm bolters all the time so not sure what your complaining about. They are a competitive unit now, they dont need anything but a skilled player.
I disagree with you. How can such a unit be good if it will likely fail the charge after the teleport strike and fire 20 AP-0 shots? since terminators don’t have a stratagem that allow them to charge successfully after deep strike, to me they remain a poor choice which makes me sad because they have such a cool badass look.
Maxamato wrote: The topic with Terminators is, that GW has buffed Gravis Armor Primarus
Everthing what a Terminator can do a Aggressor can do it better (and cheaper).
Termis are good but for competive play you play with a handicap IMHO.
Aggressors are amazing, especially now with 3 wounds, but they cant teleport. If you drop in a 10 man squad with assault cannons use the strategem that allows them to re roll all hits on the turn they drop in. Doesn't even matter if they fail the charge, they will obliterate or severely damage a squad and be a huge distraction for your opponent in the back field hopefully. Getting lucky and making the charge is icing on the cake. Also, a Terminator ancient dropping in with them or a libby in termie armor can REALLY help them out. Also the new Chaplain rules will increase charge range but we have to wait for the codex update it seems.
godardc wrote: I was considering going Blood Angels instead of buying the new Space Marines codex. I really like the fluff and models.
So I was wondering, how do they play ? They have +1 to wound when they charge is that right ?
Is the Baal predator worth anything (especially now with the flamestorm buff) ?
What about terminators ? I do have about 20 of them including the Space Hulk ones.
Solo BA are still low to mid tier. Baal pred is still useless, even with 12" flamestorm cannon. Termis aren't worth using, slow, to expensive and not tough enough. They need a 4+ inv or another wound, or a speed boost of some kind.
Tactical terminators have gotten a huge boost in 8th edition. Point reductions and now +1 attack and bolter discipline with the new rules. They have teleport strike and 2 foot range on the storm bolters all the time so not sure what your complaining about. They are a competitive unit now, they dont need anything but a skilled player.
I disagree with you. How can such a unit be good if it will likely fail the charge after the teleport strike and fire 20 AP-0 shots? since terminators don’t have a stratagem that allow them to charge successfully after deep strike, to me they remain a poor choice which makes me sad because they have such a cool badass look.
Well in my games I dropped them in with a libby and got null zone and the charge off against a Plaugeburst crawler. Guess I got lucky! They utterly wiped the vehicle and killed a squad of cultists and a daemon prince while they were at it, and that was just vanilla space marines! blood angels get +1 to wound so even more nasty!
You got lucky. It's very possible to fail a 9" charge with 3D6 and a re-roll. This has happened to every BA player. Termis can't even get a 3D6 charge, only JP units can.
Crusaderobr wrote: Tactical terminators have gotten a huge boost in 8th edition. Point reductions and now +1 attack and bolter discipline with the new rules. They have teleport strike and 2 foot range on the storm bolters all the time so not sure what your complaining about. They are a competitive unit now, they dont need anything but a skilled player.
I'm sure you can point to veritable load of good results in competive events by terminators then
Aggressors are amazing, especially now with 3 wounds, but they cant teleport. If you drop in a 10 man squad with assault cannons use the strategem that allows them to re roll all hits on the turn they drop in. Doesn't even matter if they fail the charge, they will obliterate or severely damage a squad and be a huge distraction for your opponent in the back field hopefully. Getting lucky and making the charge is icing on the cake. Also, a Terminator ancient dropping in with them or a libby in termie armor can REALLY help them out. Also the new Chaplain rules will increase charge range but we have to wait for the codex update it seems.
And costs like hell. Sure stompa can "obliterate or severly damage a squad". Not much of good when you cost over 900 pts...
It's not what they can do. It's what they can do related to COST.
And with all the -2 or better 2 damage weapons out there they also aren't even that tough.
Well in my games I dropped them in with a libby and got null zone and the charge off against a Plaugeburst crawler. Guess I got lucky! They utterly wiped the vehicle and killed a squad of cultists and a daemon prince while they were at it, and that was just vanilla space marines! blood angels get +1 to wound so even more nasty!
So you got your 28% chance to happen. Wee. 72% times you would have been sitting there and your 10 terminators would be shot to death. You wouldn't even use your +1 to wound.
Crusaderobr wrote: Tactical terminators have gotten a huge boost in 8th edition. Point reductions and now +1 attack and bolter discipline with the new rules. They have teleport strike and 2 foot range on the storm bolters all the time so not sure what your complaining about. They are a competitive unit now, they dont need anything but a skilled player.
I'm sure you can point to veritable load of good results in competive events by terminators then
Aggressors are amazing, especially now with 3 wounds, but they cant teleport. If you drop in a 10 man squad with assault cannons use the strategem that allows them to re roll all hits on the turn they drop in. Doesn't even matter if they fail the charge, they will obliterate or severely damage a squad and be a huge distraction for your opponent in the back field hopefully. Getting lucky and making the charge is icing on the cake. Also, a Terminator ancient dropping in with them or a libby in termie armor can REALLY help them out. Also the new Chaplain rules will increase charge range but we have to wait for the codex update it seems.
And costs like hell. Sure stompa can "obliterate or severly damage a squad". Not much of good when you cost over 900 pts...
It's not what they can do. It's what they can do related to COST.
And with all the -2 or better 2 damage weapons out there they also aren't even that tough.
Well in my games I dropped them in with a libby and got null zone and the charge off against a Plaugeburst crawler. Guess I got lucky! They utterly wiped the vehicle and killed a squad of cultists and a daemon prince while they were at it, and that was just vanilla space marines! blood angels get +1 to wound so even more nasty!
So you got your 28% chance to happen. Wee. 72% times you would have been sitting there and your 10 terminators would be shot to death. You wouldn't even use your +1 to wound.
You make alot of good and valid points. Look I get it, im not saying they are the miracle of space marines in 8th, I just think people overlook them and write them off far too quickly. There is alot of nasty damage 2 firepower out there, you are correct, and they could fail the charge. But lets concentrate on what they can do? How about taking an ancient and giving them 5+ FNP? How about a land raider crusader delivering them right into enemy lines and taking out a key target and locking something up so it cant shoot next turn? How about strike of the archangels stratagem when they drop down and getting re rolls for the storm bolters and the assault cannons/missile launchers? Could be decent enough if you playtest and give it a go, especially at the cheap point cost nowadays.
godardc wrote: I was considering going Blood Angels instead of buying the new Space Marines codex. I really like the fluff and models.
So I was wondering, how do they play ? They have +1 to wound when they charge is that right ?
Is the Baal predator worth anything (especially now with the flamestorm buff) ?
What about terminators ? I do have about 20 of them including the Space Hulk ones.
Solo BA are still low to mid tier. Baal pred is still useless, even with 12" flamestorm cannon. Termis aren't worth using, slow, to expensive and not tough enough. They need a 4+ inv or another wound, or a speed boost of some kind.
Tactical terminators have gotten a huge boost in 8th edition. Point reductions and now +1 attack and bolter discipline with the new rules. They have teleport strike and 2 foot range on the storm bolters all the time so not sure what your complaining about. They are a competitive unit now, they dont need anything but a skilled player.
I disagree with you. How can such a unit be good if it will likely fail the charge after the teleport strike and fire 20 AP-0 shots? since terminators don’t have a stratagem that allow them to charge successfully after deep strike, to me they remain a poor choice which makes me sad because they have such a cool badass look.
They are good because they get 40 shots,, not 20. Rapid Fire 2 my friend.
NexAddo wrote: Just playing around the idea of taking a SM detachment in a Blood Angels list to give me access to stratagems that work with Blood Angels.
Veteran Intercessors and all the Intercessor Strats, Chapter Master, ect
Anyone got any thoughts on this? Also what would be the most ideal detachment to take?
A Raven Guard Patrol detachment. Or a Spearhead of 3x3 Eliminators for that 1+ Armour save and -1 to-hit.
It depends on what the rest of your army has and what weaknesses/role you want your allies to cover. BAs have melee pretty well covered so getting some shooty allies seems the obvious option.
Sterling191 wrote: You're spending 335 points for those 40 shots. Its not remotely worth the cost.
Of course not, your also paying for that nice 2+/5++ save and powerfists, so if you make it into close combat, goodbye to targets that you charge *shrug* ive had great success with 10 man units, especially when you back them up with a Capt/Libby/Chappy/Ancient.
Crusaderobr wrote: Tactical terminators have gotten a huge boost in 8th edition. Point reductions and now +1 attack and bolter discipline with the new rules. They have teleport strike and 2 foot range on the storm bolters all the time so not sure what your complaining about. They are a competitive unit now, they dont need anything but a skilled player.
I'm sure you can point to veritable load of good results in competive events by terminators then
Aggressors are amazing, especially now with 3 wounds, but they cant teleport. If you drop in a 10 man squad with assault cannons use the strategem that allows them to re roll all hits on the turn they drop in. Doesn't even matter if they fail the charge, they will obliterate or severely damage a squad and be a huge distraction for your opponent in the back field hopefully. Getting lucky and making the charge is icing on the cake. Also, a Terminator ancient dropping in with them or a libby in termie armor can REALLY help them out. Also the new Chaplain rules will increase charge range but we have to wait for the codex update it seems.
And costs like hell. Sure stompa can "obliterate or severly damage a squad". Not much of good when you cost over 900 pts...
It's not what they can do. It's what they can do related to COST.
And with all the -2 or better 2 damage weapons out there they also aren't even that tough.
Well in my games I dropped them in with a libby and got null zone and the charge off against a Plaugeburst crawler. Guess I got lucky! They utterly wiped the vehicle and killed a squad of cultists and a daemon prince while they were at it, and that was just vanilla space marines! blood angels get +1 to wound so even more nasty!
So you got your 28% chance to happen. Wee. 72% times you would have been sitting there and your 10 terminators would be shot to death. You wouldn't even use your +1 to wound.
You make alot of good and valid points. Look I get it, im not saying they are the miracle of space marines in 8th, I just think people overlook them and write them off far too quickly. There is alot of nasty damage 2 firepower out there, you are correct, and they could fail the charge. But lets concentrate on what they can do? How about taking an ancient and giving them 5+ FNP? How about a land raider crusader delivering them right into enemy lines and taking out a key target and locking something up so it cant shoot next turn? How about strike of the archangels stratagem when they drop down and getting re rolls for the storm bolters and the assault cannons/missile launchers? Could be decent enough if you playtest and give it a go, especially at the cheap point cost nowadays.
godardc wrote: I was considering going Blood Angels instead of buying the new Space Marines codex. I really like the fluff and models.
So I was wondering, how do they play ? They have +1 to wound when they charge is that right ?
Is the Baal predator worth anything (especially now with the flamestorm buff) ?
What about terminators ? I do have about 20 of them including the Space Hulk ones.
Solo BA are still low to mid tier. Baal pred is still useless, even with 12" flamestorm cannon. Termis aren't worth using, slow, to expensive and not tough enough. They need a 4+ inv or another wound, or a speed boost of some kind.
Tactical terminators have gotten a huge boost in 8th edition. Point reductions and now +1 attack and bolter discipline with the new rules. They have teleport strike and 2 foot range on the storm bolters all the time so not sure what your complaining about. They are a competitive unit now, they dont need anything but a skilled player.
I disagree with you. How can such a unit be good if it will likely fail the charge after the teleport strike and fire 20 AP-0 shots? since terminators don’t have a stratagem that allow them to charge successfully after deep strike, to me they remain a poor choice which makes me sad because they have such a cool badass look.
They are good because they get 40 shots,, not 20. Rapid Fire 2 my friend.
wait I must have missed something: you play 10 of those guys and you also burn CP on them? How is that even considered good to reroll AP-0 hits? Most games they won’t even charge.
wait I must have missed something: you play 10 of those guys and you also burn CP on them? How is that even considered good to reroll AP-0 hits? Most games they won’t even charge.
Well ive experimented with all storm bolters, its good if you want to save points. 2 assault cannons is decent with the strategem I suppose, but costs more points. The whole reasoning behind the 10 man unit is to make sure they are at least a distraction, and if they get lucky and make it into combat, they can kill priority targets like vehicles and MC all while gunning down squads of infantry on the way.
You realize you can only legally put two assault cannons in a termie squad right? Or that if you want fisting termies, just run Sanguinary Guard. They do the job far better, at a lower price point, and with significantly more synergies.
Yeah I’m gunna be using 9 Sanguinary Guard w/ 3 fists and the rest swords being backed up by Ancient w/ standard of sacrifice and a Sanguinary Priest. Seems pretty pokey and somewhat survivable. Also, with a bit of converting using stormcast, they look super boss next to Primaris.
A priest ?? Are you serious ? Swords are already 3 pts. more expensive than a fist. A priest with JP is 86 pts. That's 116 pts. in addition for S5 AP-3 D3. With all fists on SG I have S8 AP-3 D3 wounding T7 on 2s without a priest, that's 116 less points. Its -1 to hit, rerolling everything. Your priest is useless when he fails the charge. Or you have to daisy chain back to him, reducing the number of models who can fight.
Sterling191 wrote: You're spending 335 points for those 40 shots. Its not remotely worth the cost.
Of course not, your also paying for that nice 2+/5++ save and powerfists, so if you make it into close combat, goodbye to targets that you charge *shrug* ive had great success with 10 man units, especially when you back them up with a Capt/Libby/Chappy/Ancient.
That 2+/5++ is less helpful than you think. You will be saving generally on 4+ or 5+ and failed save=dead terminator. Those go poof. Too expensive and too small inv save to be actually tough.
A priest ?? Are you serious ? Swords are already 3 pts. more expensive than a fist. A priest with JP is 86 pts. That's 116 pts. in addition for S5 AP-3 D3. With all fists on SG I have S8 AP-3 D3 wounding T7 on 2s without a priest, that's 116 less points. Its -1 to hit, rerolling everything. Your priest is useless when he fails the charge. Or you have to daisy chain back to him, reducing the number of models who can fight.
Also means you are wounding Knights on 2s with powerfists. Swords wound of 4s. He buffs your big Death Company squad as well if you take one (And you should).
Just so you guys can have a bit of a laugh, I thought I’d post up the list I’m making.
Any thought process on this. Seems a pretty weak list.
Sorry I'll expand on that.
BA Chaplain suck. We don't get the new ones.
Intercessors are only good if you take a SM detachment to unlock Stratagems to make them good. Probably best in big squads.
Reiver's are sadly terrible units.
Inceptors are average
Land Raiders are terrible.
BAHQs are some of the best HQs in the game. Take some good ones.
Death Company would easily fill the role you have for your Reiver's
BA Scouts are strangely good for their pts
A priest ?? Are you serious ? Swords are already 3 pts. more expensive than a fist. A priest with JP is 86 pts. That's 116 pts. in addition for S5 AP-3 D3. With all fists on SG I have S8 AP-3 D3 wounding T7 on 2s without a priest, that's 116 less points. Its -1 to hit, rerolling everything. Your priest is useless when he fails the charge. Or you have to daisy chain back to him, reducing the number of models who can fight.
Also means you are wounding Knights on 2s with powerfists. Swords wound of 4s. He buffs your big Death Company squad as well if you take one (And you should).
Yes a squad that can potential throw out 200 quality attacks in a turn, Mathhammer overkills two knights. Downs Eldar flyers, deals with plague bearers and on top of all that has 3 excellent ways the unit can be delivered. A waste of points sure.....
Blood Angels don't have much going for us but Death Company will kill anything they touch.
Yes a squad that can potential throw out 200 quality attacks in a turn, Mathhammer overkills two knights. Downs Eldar flyers, deals with plague bearers and on top of all that has 3 excellent ways the unit can be delivered. A waste of points sure.....
Blood Angels don't have much going for us but Death Company will kill anything they touch.
In reality your DC will only kill chaff units, or bounce off -2 to hit plague bearers. And then die, the rest will run away, unless you spend 2CP for a handful of remaining models.
In reality your DC will only kill chaff units, or bounce off -2 to hit plague bearers. And then die, the rest will run away, unless you spend 2CP for a handful of remaining models.
Even at -2 150-200 attacks hitting on 5s rerolling 1s and 2s. Wounding on 2s is still going to do the emperors work. And we are now talking about probably the most durable unit in the entire game.
You cant declare charges on units more than 12" away. It does not matter how far you roll. The devil is in the details.
At 20 ppm unequipped, they are a joke in the current meta.
Wouldn't you just hold back and clear the chaff with the rest of your force first?
Surely you can hide a unit for a few terms out of LOS?
While you are chaff clearing, your list is getting blasted apart. DC in deepstrike waiting are idle points. What if your foe goes first and creates multiple layers?
You cant count on los blockers. Maybe you can hide, but never build around it.
DC regularly fail to shift pb, even buffed. There is no emperors work happening there.
Yes a squad that can potential throw out 200 quality attacks in a turn, Mathhammer overkills two knights. Downs Eldar flyers, deals with plague bearers and on top of all that has 3 excellent ways the unit can be delivered. A waste of points sure.....
Blood Angels don't have much going for us but Death Company will kill anything they touch.
Well, its a decent unit in cc.
But the problem is to reach cc.
The enemy will target it asap.
A priest ?? Are you serious ? Swords are already 3 pts. more expensive than a fist. A priest with JP is 86 pts. That's 116 pts. in addition for S5 AP-3 D3. With all fists on SG I have S8 AP-3 D3 wounding T7 on 2s without a priest, that's 116 less points. Its -1 to hit, rerolling everything. Your priest is useless when he fails the charge. Or you have to daisy chain back to him, reducing the number of models who can fight.
Also means you are wounding Knights on 2s with powerfists. Swords wound of 4s. He buffs your big Death Company squad as well if you take one (And you should).
So yes... I am serious.
DC is a waste of points.
Care to explain why? I'm genuinely interested to have some feedback why they are bad.
NexAddo wrote: They do. They can deep strike 9in away with a 3d6 on any turn of the game.
You also have the option of a free move and advance at the start of the game.
By no means are they an auto-win which I may be coming across as making them out to be but they are certainly a terror in the night.
Yes. They can deep strike 9.01" from enemy and charge 3d6". They can't charge targets beyond 12" though. So enemy puts important squad behind chaff so that you can't get within 12" of the important target. Ergo even if you roll 18" for your charge you won't kill one model out of the important target.
Well, this edition is a shooty one while cc units such as the DC have a hard time to make serious impact.
A DC unit has essentially one turn of cc when it charges. Of course, they can fight twice and inflict even more damage.
But then the enemy might withdraw leaving the DC in the open left and dry. It will hardly survive the enemy return fire.
Well fragility is the main problem with all SM. For 4 extra points you get 6FNP and 1A. Can't tell if it is worth, but it's still something.
About them be easily screened, that is wholly another problem. I never played BA competitively, but I played some tournaments with Orks and I yet to find someone that screen effectively all board. Might not be the best vs psychers heavy lists, but sometimes is enough to tripoint another unit after consolidation in order to survive long enough to get where you wanna get.
Or maybe now is gonna be easier dropping some screen cleaners and than charge with DC? I dunno.
It's not worth it DC are a fluff unit for us now. If you play against a decent opponent it's 300+pts wasted. If they got the same breaks as the vets got then we could talk.
kryczek wrote: It's not worth it DC are a fluff unit for us now. If you play against a decent opponent it's 300+pts wasted. If they got the same breaks as the vets got then we could talk.
I need some advice.
I have a small BA vanguard detachment, that comes along my guard army.
But now i want to move on to have a true BA army without others.
Tiberius501 wrote:Hello brothers and sisters of Sanguinius, quick question. Do you guys think one of the new War Walkers or a second Redemptor is a better choice in a Primaris force of BAngels?
You should wait until the new free PDF BA rules come out, hopefully in the near future, around the time when the new codex SM is released next saturday.
Well... what should i add to the list?
What dreadnought is the best? so many different ones... (this is the only army that has access to dreadnoughts)
Aggressors are auto include now i guess?
The primaris snipers seem good to.
I think Death Company are great, especially with the new shock +1 attack rule, but 20 points each you guys do make a point they are kinda costy. But how about this... how about just running an entire army of bolter + chainsword DC with a chappy and a smash captain? Your opponent cant prioritize anything because all he has to shoot at is 6+ FNP jump pack marines that are hopefully in cover. Lets all take this hold my beer list to our local tournaments and just say f it and see how it does? How many DC can you fit into a 2000 or 1850 point list?
Lets all take this hold my beer list to our local tournaments and just say f it and see how it does? How many DC can you fit into a 2000 or 1850 point list?
This...
Things like whats going on in the Local Meta may make DC better or worse.
Its still all Knights Romping and Stomping at the tournaments I've been apart of. Orks and CWE have been doing okay.
But against Knights I'm sure I can deal with the Loyal 32. Hide the DC in a Magic box and then make the magic happen.
I need some advice.
I have a small BA vanguard detachment, that comes along my guard army.
But now i want to move on to have a true BA army without others.
Tiberius501 wrote:Hello brothers and sisters of Sanguinius, quick question. Do you guys think one of the new War Walkers or a second Redemptor is a better choice in a Primaris force of BAngels?
You should wait until the new free PDF BA rules come out, hopefully in the near future, around the time when the new codex SM is released next saturday.
Well... what should i add to the list?
What dreadnought is the best? so many different ones... (this is the only army that has access to dreadnoughts)
Aggressors are auto include now i guess?
The primaris snipers seem good to.
Well, inceptors got a third wound, which makes them pretty durable. I just dont understand why codex SM inceptors are 41 pts., but BA, SW, DA and SW are still 45. Codex SMtac squads are 60, non codex SM squads are still 65. Contemptor dreads are still the best. BA aggressors arent as good as codex SM aggressors because we dont have special rules like doctrines which allow them to move, but count as stationary. I have no clue about the new primaris units, i refuse to buy any of them, because of their idiotic transport rules.
Crusaderobr wrote: I think Death Company are great, especially with the new shock +1 attack rule, but 20 points each you guys do make a point they are kinda costy. But how about this... how about just running an entire army of bolter + chainsword DC with a chappy and a smash captain? Your opponent cant prioritize anything because all he has to shoot at is 6+ FNP jump pack marines that are hopefully in cover. Lets all take this hold my beer list to our local tournaments and just say f it and see how it does? How many DC can you fit into a 2000 or 1850 point list?
´
Thing about that +1 attack though is that it helps DC where DC don't really need help. Or have you seen DC ever throw too few dice? Me not. Issue is it's hell of an expensive unit that dies to stiff breeze.
It's much like goff clan trait. Gives help where orks don't need help making it rather lackluster clan trait.
Crusaderobr wrote: I think Death Company are great, especially with the new shock +1 attack rule, but 20 points each you guys do make a point they are kinda costy. But how about this... how about just running an entire army of bolter + chainsword DC with a chappy and a smash captain? Your opponent cant prioritize anything because all he has to shoot at is 6+ FNP jump pack marines that are hopefully in cover. Lets all take this hold my beer list to our local tournaments and just say f it and see how it does? How many DC can you fit into a 2000 or 1850 point list?
´
Thing about that +1 attack though is that it helps DC where DC don't really need help. Or have you seen DC ever throw too few dice? Me not. Issue is it's hell of an expensive unit that dies to stiff breeze.
It's much like goff clan trait. Gives help where orks don't need help making it rather lackluster clan trait.
Agreed. The problem of DC isnt offensive power, its defensive.
Spado wrote:did anyone tried to play with 3 eversors to kilI screening units? I was planning on buying at least 1...
I had good success killing orks with 3 eversors. Screens shouldnt be a problem.
Crusaderobr wrote: I think Death Company are great, especially with the new shock +1 attack rule, but 20 points each you guys do make a point they are kinda costy. But how about this... how about just running an entire army of bolter + chainsword DC with a chappy and a smash captain? Your opponent cant prioritize anything because all he has to shoot at is 6+ FNP jump pack marines that are hopefully in cover. Lets all take this hold my beer list to our local tournaments and just say f it and see how it does? How many DC can you fit into a 2000 or 1850 point list?
´
Thing about that +1 attack though is that it helps DC where DC don't really need help. Or have you seen DC ever throw too few dice? Me not. Issue is it's hell of an expensive unit that dies to stiff breeze.
It's much like goff clan trait. Gives help where orks don't need help making it rather lackluster clan trait.
Agreed. The problem of DC isnt offensive power, its defensive.
I have to disagree with that. In my experience you can't have enough attacks. Especially not with a chainsword marine. DC has failed me many times even trying to kill some basic goons reliably when you have a bad attack or wound roll. If you feel your DC has to much overkill, just take fewer now, or drop a support character and invest in something else. For me the shock attack rule is a welcomed boost for those men in black and makes them a bit more viable. I take 5 man squads with a single t hammer here and there.
I have to disagree with that. In my experience you can't have enough attacks. Especially not with a chainsword marine. DC has failed me many times even trying to kill some basic goons reliably when you have a bad attack or wound roll. If you feel your DC has to much overkill, just take fewer now, or drop a support character and invest in something else. For me the shock attack rule is a welcomed boost for those men in black and makes them a bit more viable. I take 5 man squads with a single t hammer here and there.
If you cant kill some basic goons (T3 infantry with 5+ sv) with 60/120 attacks (15 DC chainsword models with four attacks on the charge, re-rolling all failed hits with lemartes, fighting twice with honor the chapter) hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s with red thirst, your problem wont be solved by 15/30 more attacks.
p5freak wrote: If you cant kill some basic goons (T3 infantry with 5+ sv) with 60/120 attacks (15 DC chainsword models with four attacks on the charge, re-rolling all failed hits with lemartes, fighting twice with honor the chapter) hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s with red thirst, your problem wont be solved by 15/30 more attacks.
Of course I didn't mean such an scenario. I said I'm using small squads. This is just the ridiculous overkill you should avoid. I'm totally agreeing with you, that your setup isn't much benefitting from the shock attack rule at all, but maybe you should just use less guys? They won't suffer from moral losses in small squads and the enemie maybe wastes wounds while shooting at 3 5-man squads instead of a big one. Also the extra attack is a huge thing for some quality weapons hidden in you squads. A fourth attack for the thunderhammer or power weapon is a welcome improvement.
p5freak wrote: If you cant kill some basic goons (T3 infantry with 5+ sv) with 60/120 attacks (15 DC chainsword models with four attacks on the charge, re-rolling all failed hits with lemartes, fighting twice with honor the chapter) hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s with red thirst, your problem wont be solved by 15/30 more attacks.
Of course I didn't mean such an scenario. I said I'm using small squads. This is just the ridiculous overkill you should avoid. I'm totally agreeing with you, that your setup isn't much benefitting from the shock attack rule at all, but maybe you should just use less guys? They won't suffer from moral losses in small squads and the enemie maybe wastes wounds while shooting at 3 5-man squads instead of a big one. Also the extra attack is a huge thing for some quality weapons hidden in you squads. A fourth attack for the thunderhammer or power weapon is a welcome improvement.
p5freak wrote: If you cant kill some basic goons (T3 infantry with 5+ sv) with 60/120 attacks (15 DC chainsword models with four attacks on the charge, re-rolling all failed hits with lemartes, fighting twice with honor the chapter) hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s with red thirst, your problem wont be solved by 15/30 more attacks.
Of course I didn't mean such an scenario. I said I'm using small squads. This is just the ridiculous overkill you should avoid. I'm totally agreeing with you, that your setup isn't much benefitting from the shock attack rule at all, but maybe you should just use less guys? They won't suffer from moral losses in small squads and the enemie maybe wastes wounds while shooting at 3 5-man squads instead of a big one. Also the extra attack is a huge thing for some quality weapons hidden in you squads. A fourth attack for the thunderhammer or power weapon is a welcome improvement.
I am not using DC at all.
Understandable. Although one could use DC as a counter-strike unit if possible.
I'm hoping for a new codex after those for the founding chapters and Dark Angels.
p5freak wrote: I just dont understand why codex SM inceptors are 41 pts., but BA, SW, DA and SW are still 45. Codex SMtac squads are 60, non codex SM squads are still 65.
Yeah, it is a bit sucky and could easily have been addressed in the FAQ. Will we have to wait for CA19 or will we get our new Dex by then?
On the flip side, at least our Smash Captains still get cheap Thunder Hammers.
No using their strats even if you have a detachment of them.
Unless you use FW units. The FAQ says you cant use stratagems from the new SM codex on any ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit from any codex. But FW doesnt have codexes, they have indexes.
How do you fill in the troop role?
What units do you bring for a battalion detachment?
go full primaris of take classic marines and how do you load them out?
I have 2 units of 5 intercessors and probably always bring them.
For now i need 1 more unit and in the future an other 3 more.
the rest of the army is much elite with jump packs (sanguinary guard, death companie and terminators)
usually people bring either primaris or scouts (for chep screening), I would advise on more primaris if you need to buy them (who knows what will happen to regular marines...). Also right now Intercesors seem to me a very optimal choice all in all
I have an additional noob question.
How do you effectively use an librarian. if you use it at al.
I can't seem to figure out how to use them. it also seems to me that you use them at the front. I always had the impression librarians where for in the back, to keep them save while they do their thing (whatever it is).
The only useful psychic powers are smite, wings of sanguinius, quickening, unleash rage. Give the libby a JP, deepstrike him with DC or SG, cast unleash rage on them. Or use quickening and wings of sanguinius on a libby dread, or mephiston.
So what is the best way to equip DC in a 2000-2500pt game? Would full thunder hammers be a waste of points? In 1500pt I’ve run 15 with 4 powerfist and the rest chainsword mostly to keep the WYSIWYG but I’m working on fixing them up for bigger games.
DC are glass cannons, they hit hard, and die to a stiff breeze afterwards. Use 10 with boltguns and chainswords, and add 2 TH. Maybe add 2 inferno pistols.
Given that THs are almost certainly going to be getting a price hike (based on the new SM dex), I am going with power fists. You can get more bang for your buck with fists (or at least you will soon).
Mostly CS/Bolter but with a few fists sprinkled in.
The cost of a TH for non characters is 16 pts, and 40 pts. for characters, in the new SM codex. I dont see why this would change for non codex SM, like us.
p5freak wrote: Im sure it will be 40 for characters in the new BA codex, and im also sure it will remain 16 for non characters. Thats what i meant.
Fair enough. I still think that on a squad level, power fists are more cost effective than thunder hammers as you get more attacks overall and a higher average damage output for your points. Thunder hammers are really only worthwhile on characters or units with a small number of attacks that you plan to crank up to the max with stratagems, psychic powers etc.
48 points will buy you 3 Hammers or 5 fists (plus change). Against large targets, the fists will do slightly more damage. Against infantry, the fists will do significantly more damage. Fists can also be stacked with bolters while I think the Hammer takes up both hands (a peculiarity of DC).
I dont see them updating the Blood Angels codex in a while yet though. Wonder if they will just do it as part of Chapter Approve. Get the nerfs without the benefits!
And even If we get our update, I'm concerned what GW is up to. We could be one of the codicies that break the power creep spiral, like we ended in 7th...
Our chapter tactic isn't useful for our vehicles, except dreads who got it anyway. Right now we wouldn't benefit from the removal of the CT restrictions. If we keep our +1 to wound they would have to add a strong second part for our chapter tactic that benefits vehicles.
Also we are likely to get a bonus to the assault doctrine, if we get access to the doctrine system at all. I see this as a disadvantage, just because your army can only benefit from it round three onwards.
What would you like to see for a vehicle benefit? It seems the other chapters have that covered pretty well.
With most of the other chapters going the way of primaris blood angels stands out as the ones that benefit the least from it given how shooty they all are, and also rely on more fluff models that are not primaris.
Lucifer Pattern Engines for every Blood Angel Rhino-Chassis:
Let them all drive 24" when advancing. Make Rhinos great again!
Let Dreads advance and charge?
Land Raider with an ability to fall back and shoot.
Assaultsquats as Troop-choice - but that won't happen. :(
Forlorn Fury for everyone, not only DC and for 1CP - just like the RG-Strat.
A push for our Librarians would be cool.
BA have been excellent with Rhinos, Land Raider, Dreads, Librarians and Jump Packs. That should be shown.
BA have been excellent with Rhinos, Land Raider, Dreads, Librarians and Jump Packs. That should be shown.
But those are all old school stuff you've basically highlighted.
It would be interesting if they do death company and guard in primaris forms. I havent read the lore but I assume primaris are still subject to the black rage? Would be great to see BA get the first legit close combat primaris unit.
I would also expect to see BA get access to other codex units like thunderfire cannons.
In other discussion do any of you bring Primaris Eliminators in your army? No chapter benefit at the moment but it seems like still a good enough unit.
yeah... I've got like 20.000 points of "normal-BA" and if those 5.000 Euro (paint excluded) I have invested in my army will be dead because of Primaris-BS, I definitely won't buy any Marines ever again. So I am only interested in the rules of old models.
Unfortunately old models will sort of fade out. They will still have rules, but points wise they will be inefficient. Just compare the old tac marine at 12 pts. against the new intercessor at 17 pts. Compare a land raider to a repulsor. GW could give the land raider better rules, but they dont. Most stratagems in the new codex are only usable on PRIMARIS units.
In other discussion do any of you bring Primaris Eliminators in your army? No chapter benefit at the moment but it seems like still a good enough unit.
Not yet as spending £30 for 3 models just irks me. Rules-wise they are pretty decent with either super-sniper rifles or light lascannons that can be combined with flexible deployment, camo cloaks and the nifty ability to fallback from Assault. They are a good heavy choice if you want to run a Brigade. They are pretty vital to an all-primaris army for anti-tank.
I like the unit, just not their price in the shops.
p5freak wrote: Im sure it will be 40 for characters in the new BA codex, and im also sure it will remain 16 for non characters. Thats what i meant.
Fair enough. I still think that on a squad level, power fists are more cost effective than thunder hammers as you get more attacks overall and a higher average damage output for your points. Thunder hammers are really only worthwhile on characters or units with a small number of attacks that you plan to crank up to the max with stratagems, psychic powers etc.
48 points will buy you 3 Hammers or 5 fists (plus change). Against large targets, the fists will do slightly more damage. Against infantry, the fists will do significantly more damage. Fists can also be stacked with bolters while I think the Hammer takes up both hands (a peculiarity of DC).
The thing is that for 16pts you get 4 TH attacks that deal 12dmg to hard stuff. Sure 18pts gives 8pf attacks that deal 16dmg to the same things. But you also lose 3, if using pf+cs for comparison instead of bolter, normal attacks for that and start losing the heavy hitters sooner.
If I have 3TH in a squad of 10 I need to lose 8 models before I lose a hammer but only 5 if it were powerfists.
I think its better to just use TH over PF for DC. You can more easily keep up the threat against targets such as knights while still having a bunch of CC attacks for slightly cheaper than PFs. With TH you would probably survive the overwatch with all hammers and maybe even the return stomp so if using the fight again strat you will hit with full power the second time aswell. With pf half of them would likely be gone at that point. And if multiple charging 2 different units like a tank and Infantry unit having 3 TH on the tank and 7 CS on the Infantry is preferable to 5/5 or 6/4.
Against 1w MEQs the pf is superior but you dont extra PF attacks to kill that and most everything else I would prefer hammers. Even if losing a few bolters. Hammers are that good. If PF were flat 2d I would probably reconsider or if the pf were 1-2pts cheaper alternatively if the th was slightly more expensive.
Rumor has it we are stuck with our bad rules (unless CA 2019 changes things) until spring 2020...
Volume 1: Asuryani vs. Drukhari (October 2019) Volume 2: Chaos vs. BT? (end of November - beginning of December) Volume 3: Blood Angels vs. Tyranids (early 2020) Volume 4: SW vs Ork (2020) Volume 5:? vs? Edit Albrecht: Top! I put this pinned
My red white scars/raven guard are going to get a lot of play it looks like...
bananathug wrote: Rumor has it we are stuck with our bad rules (unless CA 2019 changes things) until spring 2020...
Volume 1: Asuryani vs. Drukhari (October 2019) Volume 2: Chaos vs. BT? (end of November - beginning of December) Volume 3: Blood Angels vs. Tyranids (early 2020) Volume 4: SW vs Ork (2020) Volume 5:? vs? Edit Albrecht: Top! I put this pinned
My red white scars/raven guard are going to get a lot of play it looks like...
I was making a BA list and then thought "hmm, if I also had a RG batallion what would it look like?". Started with a few units and in the end my list was a BA smash captain, Libby Dread and 3 troops and the other 1600pts RG. But then I have 1600pts without doctrines.... And after comparing Shrike at 130pts and Dante at 175pts, even at 175 pts I would take Shrike over Dante, and realising how much more you get from RG than BA the list I was thinking about is now 2000pts RG. Just need to buy a Shrike and put a proper helmet on him, remove some ugly bits and paint him red.
Not like our Smash Captain is even better than the double warlord trait smash captain that RG get. Turn 2 against a knight they hit and wounds on 2s..... and they even have more, albeit a tiny but worse each, ways to get that captain there than BA and cheaper too!
If run as RG successors if you dont want Shrike or go all in on anti shooting traits they can exchange cover/-1 to hit for rerolls, extra attacks or longer charges.
I sure hope we get at least a few lines in CA that gives us some stuff while we wait for a proper codex. Chapter tactics on vehicles so Invictor Warsuits can get +1 to wound in CC. Standard doctrine, if nothing else so we can ally with other marines and not just go 100% other marines. Cheaper and reworded stratagems would work as well. Like let Libby dread fight again too and make "Forlorn Fury" 1cp since its already worse than what RG get for 1cp. Same with "Upon Wings of Fire" since RG can just cast a Psychic power to throw their smash captain across the table turn 1. Even "Descent of Angels" could go down to 1cp to match the RG version. Any one of these would be a huge help. Especially the stratagem costs since its rediculous how cheap they are for RG compared to us and they have an awesome chapter tactic for troop choices so it isnt even a real tax for them.
Everything is more expensive (in terms of both power and points) for Blood Angels. I have the BA codex and SM codex too. Just started a successor chapter. What was coming out as ~350 points on the SM codex (which I got first) is coming outs as ~450 points using the BA codex (which I am going to use).
I guess it's because the Chapter and its successors are depleted in the fluff (especially after the DoB), so every unit is worth more.
Darian Aarush wrote: I guess it's because the Chapter and its successors are depleted in the fluff (especially after the DoB), so every unit is worth more.
Or because the BA codex is older.
Andfluff rarity shouldn't have any impact on points.
p5freak wrote: Here is the new tactica thread for 8th edition. Let me start with a stratagem. You can use upon wings of fire to remove your JP unit from CC and set it up 9" away from the unit you fought, or whereever you want. In the charge phase you can charge again, because you didnt fallback.
Any FAQ or Errata to let the new invictor warsuits use our chapter tactic or are we like the SW where it's not infantry, dread or bike so it doesn't get the ability?
bananathug wrote: Any FAQ or Errata to let the new invictor warsuits use our chapter tactic or are we like the SW where it's not infantry, dread or bike so it doesn't get the ability?
No red thirst for BA invictors, they are vehicles.
Guys, could you help me with Astorat? He has an ability "Mass of Doom". If I use this one on death company squad at the start of the movement phase, then use "Upon Wings of Fire" on that death company squad and replace the squad to different place will the buff still work? Because technically I removed the squad from the table.
Question, I remember there was an erreta or FAQ that limited the use of stuff like wings of Sanguinius or warptime for models that dropped in at the same turn, so they weren't able to charge, but I can't find it anymore. Someone knows where this was written? I'm asking, because I wasn't to know if a phobos libby would be able to charge turn 1 out of his conceiled position.
Q. The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up
on the battlefield as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance
further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot,
charge, etc.).
Can such a unit make a charge move? Can it pile in
and consolidate?
A: Yes to both questions – the unit can declare a charge
and make a charge move, and if it is chosen to fight, it
can pile in and consolidate.
Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason e.g.
because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive Commander
ability, or because of a psychic power such as Warptime from
the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because of a Stratagem like
Metabolic Overdrive from Codex: Tyranids, etc.?
A: No.
I've got 15 intercessors left over from my battalion force I bought for my crimson fists and now I've done around 30 Intercessors and 10 infiltrators Ive been thinking of doing a small blood angel force.
Just wondering how Blood angel Primaris forces fare?? With a lack of combat units I'd imagine it's quite tough to field a decent hard hitting force without old marines??
Rogerio134134 wrote: I've got 15 intercessors left over from my battalion force I bought for my crimson fists and now I've done around 30 Intercessors and 10 infiltrators Ive been thinking of doing a small blood angel force.
Just wondering how Blood angel Primaris forces fare?? With a lack of combat units I'd imagine it's quite tough to field a decent hard hitting force without old marines??
My biggest issue with my primaris marine blood angels is that they're essentially inferior codex marines with the scattering of unique little marine characters/units.
Per the leaked product lists making the rounds, PA book 3 sometime in december is supposedly centered around Blood Angels, complete with a (likely) Primaris Mephiston.
It'll be very interesting to see what happens as it'll be the first non-codex Marine chapter to get updated rules.
Spado wrote: did you guys see the new flying contemptor? Does anybody knows if we’ll be able to use this beauty in 40k as well?
The vast majority of these units are 30K only alas. A real shame as that thing is a work of art. 2 Lightning claws, 2 assault cannons and a jump pack. What's not to love?
Headlss wrote: So with a little bit of luck we can set up a turn one charge with 2 death companies of 15 dudes each right.
Jumps packs one each squad. on one squad use forlorn hope for a turn 0 move of 12 +d6 inches. With the other desent of angles and upon wings of fire.
6 comand points but tricks like that are what comand points are for.
I can't be the first person to see that. Any one have much luck?
Problem is that you have 600+pts there that will mostly hit screens turn 1 worth 1/5th of your guys and then you are out in the open and get shot to death.
Depending on how much LoS blocking terrain there is its probably better to have a single squad 10-13 or so. And then use the rest of the points for other sruff.
I sometimes deploy a DC unit very aggressively so they really must play around me getting turn 1 and charging across the board. Have happened that they have had few screening units but put them in the way of the DC unit to leave something juicy in a corner relatively unprotected so I can deploy a DC smash captain across it and then use FF on it instead of the DC unit.
Sadly RG do this play much better than us since they get a similar stratagem for 1 cp they can use on any infantry and use it on multiple units before the game. Gonna play my BA as RG next tournament for this reason since they can do it with vanguard veterans as well as any other unit. Like make a move with those 10 stalker intercessors so they get LoS to your characters and can snipe them turn 1 with that 3cp strat or just move your whole army 6-12"+d6" before turn 1 if you have enough CP.
Edit :
You could t1 charge with 3 Invictor Warsuits, 1 Librarian Beatstick(dread or mephiston), 3+ scouts, 15 death company and 10 Sanguinary guard without much trouble if going turn 1. Not just DC that can do that.
Headlss wrote: So with a little bit of luck we can set up a turn one charge with 2 death companies of 15 dudes each right.
Jumps packs one each squad. on one squad use forlorn hope for a turn 0 move of 12 +d6 inches. With the other desent of angles and upon wings of fire.
6 comand points but tricks like that are what comand points are for.
I can't be the first person to see that. Any one have much luck?
Problem is that you have 600+pts there that will mostly hit screens turn 1 worth 1/5th of your guys and then you are out in the open and get shot to death.
Depending on how much LoS blocking terrain there is its probably better to have a single squad 10-13 or so. And then use the rest of the points for other sruff.
I sometimes deploy a DC unit very aggressively so they really must play around me getting turn 1 and charging across the board. Have happened that they have had few screening units but put them in the way of the DC unit to leave something juicy in a corner relatively unprotected so I can deploy a DC smash captain across it and then use FF on it instead of the DC unit.
Sadly RG do this play much better than us since they get a similar stratagem for 1 cp they can use on any infantry and use it on multiple units before the game. Gonna play my BA as RG next tournament for this reason since they can do it with vanguard veterans as well as any other unit. Like make a move with those 10 stalker intercessors so they get LoS to your characters and can snipe them turn 1 with that 3cp strat or just move your whole army 6-12"+d6" before turn 1 if you have enough CP.
Edit :
You could t1 charge with 3 Invictor Warsuits, 1 Librarian Beatstick(dread or mephiston), 3+ scouts, 15 death company and 10 Sanguinary guard without much trouble if going turn 1. Not just DC that can do that.
RG = Raven Guard. About 95% of what we BA can do they can do better and cheaper. Until we get some updates for BA that puts us at the same level I`m playing "Blood Guard" or "Raven Angels" as a RG successor chapter.
We have a flying dread that they dont have but other than that they pretty much are BA 2.0
Klickor wrote: RG = Raven Guard. About 95% of what we BA can do they can do better and cheaper. Until we get some updates for BA that puts us at the same level I`m playing "Blood Guard" or "Raven Angels" as a RG successor chapter.
We have a flying dread that they dont have but other than that they pretty much are BA 2.0
You don't think the plus 1 to wound is worth while?
What about death company dreads? I really want to make use of their 6" consolidate. But I don't think they are fast enough to ever get into combat.
Also if we stack all the buffs on the death guard can't they get 6 attacks on a charge? 5 with thunder hammers.
Klickor wrote: RG = Raven Guard. About 95% of what we BA can do they can do better and cheaper. Until we get some updates for BA that puts us at the same level I`m playing "Blood Guard" or "Raven Angels" as a RG successor chapter.
We have a flying dread that they dont have but other than that they pretty much are BA 2.0
You don't think the plus 1 to wound is worth while?
What about death company dreads? I really want to make use of their 6" consolidate. But I don't think they are fast enough to ever get into combat.
Also if we stack all the buffs on the death guard can't they get 6 attacks on a charge? 5 with thunder hammers.
Thats dounds like fun.
If we get into CC we can kill it even without the +1 to wound half the time. Biggest problem is getting there and staying power.
Codex marines get chapter tactics and doctrines on everything including vehicles which opens up many other units to help getting our CC units in to CC.
Master artisan + stealthy RG successors kind of keep the CC ability, reroll a hit and a wound on a TH is almost like +1 to wound, while also buffing ranged shooting and giving much more staying power against shooting while making everything in cover all the time. This also working on the Invictor Warsuit, the best new addition to Ba, makes it much better than it already is since its a vehicle and not a dread so it doesnt get BACT.
Doctrines extra ap and access to Thunderfire cannons and cheaper whirlwinds help a lot with removing enemy screens so we can pit smash captains and JP veterans against their juicy targets instead of a 40-50pts screen.
I have had DC with 7 attacks each at str 5 rerolling hits and rerolling 1s to wound to kill 30 ork boys after rolling for half the unit and it felt nice but my unit was worth many times those 210pts the orks cost. If you meet IG and they have 6 10 man squads screening, what do you do? Unless there is a ton of terrain you will get shoy to death before those 60 guys worth less than 1 DC squad is gone and you can charge his tanks.
BA suffer from rather expensive models and stratagems and not enough cost effective fire power to get our boys in CC.
After paying for 2-3 battalions to get enough CP and then 2 units of DC/VV/SG you are out of points.
I dont think there is a 2000pts BA list that wouldnt get better by removing 280pts of BA units and adding in loyal 32 and 3 mortar squads. Sadly.
The BA chapter tactic is one of the weakest of all SM. We only get +1 to wound in the turn where we charge, get charged, or perform a heroic intervention. So we must blow all (or most) of our CP in that turn, to get into melee, and to make as much damage as possible. Other chapter tactics work all the time. And what Klickor said.
I’d say that all sounds reasonable.
I game just for fun, so being top tier isn’t an issue. What I’d like to see from PA:3 would be:
Doctrines with a faction bonus to either movement or assault. +1 to charge or a second round of Initiative would be more than perfect. Reroll a single charge dice would be a dream, if it happened.
Stratagems that work for Primaris gear would be great! Even copy/pasted from the new Space Marine codex would suit.
Chaplain Litanies. I’d love it if these were to be different to vanilla, more combat focused.
What about a stratagem that lets a unit count as if they charged that turn? That could be awesome.
For something slightly more balanced, I would like us to get the ability to count Heavy/RF weapons as Assault on the turn we advance.
Not super powerful but it would make a nice speed contrast to our melee trait.It would also give units like the Baal Predator and the Fragioso a reason to exist again.
My wish list would be:
- cheaper encarmine weapons for sanguinary guard.
- doctrines.
- some buff for fragioso and baal preds.
- death company reivers (some rule to let them be in assault doctrine T1 to get -1ap)
(- that reroll a single die on the charge would be cool, wouldn't be OP, because you can do this with a CP a turn.. but getting in the combat easier would be most welcome.) We don't even need any RG level shenanigans, just something.
I'm thinking at best were getting our litanies, special issue wargear and primaris mephiston. My hope is for it to be a SM supplement ala BT. In which case we'll get quite a bit. My money is on the former however. Not forgetting that FT will be in the WD as well.
Mephiston gets the PRIMARIS keyword. Which is a nerf. He cannot ride with his death company brothers in a rhino or razorback anymore. This means that snipers that dont need LOS can take him out. Or, his death company brothers cannot ride with him in an impulsor, repulsor. Astorath still chants his mass of doom at the start of the movement phase, which means it still cant be done after deepstriking him. At least lemartes and astorath now get access to litanies. But cant use them after deepstriking.
Mephiston has nothing to to with death company. Why would he ride with them in a rhino?
But I absolutely see the dilemma with "at the start of the battle round"
So Astorath and Lemartes got nerfed, because they don't give rerolls the turn they drop. At least Lemartes still works for DC.
Guys, upon wings of fire would work for prayers, wouldn't it? Not a cheap way, but at least we are able to pull that off. And for the case that the prayer doesn't go off you could spare your CPs and keep hiding your jump chaplain.
Wasn't PA3 taking place after the main leviathan event?
Because in that case we could see more Flesh Tearers on a single table than the total number of flash tearers actually remaining in the chapter (About a couple of dozen).
DC are us 3 attacks on a charge. And intercessor death company will be able to take thunder hammers. They probably won't be able to take jump packs though.
Wow, so far i am not impressed. We get DC primaris intercessors (without JP, i guess), and during the assault doctrine +1A, which is in T3. So, footslogging them up the board Or put them in an impulsor, and wait one turn, because you cant charge after the transport has moved. Why is it even called assault vehicle, when you can assault out of it ??
p5freak wrote: Wow, so far i am not impressed. We get DC primaris intercessors (without JP, i guess), and during the assault doctrine +1A, which is in T3. So, footslogging them up the board Or put them in an impulsor, and wait one turn, because you cant charge after the transport has moved. Why is it even called assault vehicle, when you can assault out of it ??
p5freak wrote: Wow, so far i am not impressed. We get DC primaris intercessors (without JP, i guess), and during the assault doctrine +1A, which is in T3. So, footslogging them up the board Or put them in an impulsor, and wait one turn, because you cant charge after the transport has moved. Why is it even called assault vehicle, when you can assault out of it ??
I got to say, I followed this thread that you started, I don't see you very optimistic even in the face of a boost. What would it takes to make you a tad happier?
I think a lot of people were looking for an actual unit of primaris DC with their own whistles and bells in a similar vein to our current DC and that's fair enough. What we got in the death company primaris intercessors (DCPI?) Is maybe a little too basic for some of us. I'm quite glad they didnt give us a direct replacement that some of us keep requesting ala sisters and banshees etc. I'm going to focus on the primaris getting DC and not so much for the missing JP and TH/BG everywhere as that's what the current DC are for.
Me personally I'm chuffed to bits with what I've seen so far. If the DCPI are troops I'll be pretty much over the moon.
So far I'm pretty happy with what Blood Angels have got.
Having access to the intersessor Strats is nice. We still don't know all the Strats we get. I'm hoping for something to get us to assault Doctrines turn 2.
I find it hilarious that our 5 man scout squads will be getting 21 attacks, +1 to wound and -1 ap during the assault doctrines.
I don't need BA to be the best of the best . It does look like we are headed for the good bracket. (Which usually saves you from nerfs in 6-12 months)
p5freak wrote: Wow, so far i am not impressed. We get DC primaris intercessors (without JP, i guess), and during the assault doctrine +1A, which is in T3. So, footslogging them up the board Or put them in an impulsor, and wait one turn, because you cant charge after the transport has moved. Why is it even called assault vehicle, when you can assault out of it ??
I got to say, I followed this thread that you started, I don't see you very optimistic even in the face of a boost. What would it takes to make you a tad happier?
What boost ? We get +1A in T3, wow. Some games are already over by T3. A litany that does AP-4 on an unmodified roll of 6s, woooow. Litanies are pretty much useless, because the priest has to be on the battlefield before the turn starts. You deepstrike, no litanies. You disembark, no litanies. DC primaris are a nerf. No JP, no deepstrike, no descent of angels. No relocation possible with upon wings of fire. But maybe there will be a stratagem to enable them to charge after disembarking from an impulsor. What about support characters like astorath, lemartes ? Are they primaris ? No, they arent. They have to take JPs and deepstrike along their DC primaris intercessors, when they disembark, because they cannot embark on a primaris only transport.
I hope they drop the points on the old DCJP marines to 15 pts. That would be a boost.
He's talking about in compared to the old DC which you can still take.
Also not sure how getting access to the stratagems that make Intercessors good is not cause for celebration.
And we are in such early days. Heck there could be a strat that lets you get to the assault doctrine turn 2. So we'll be playing for that turn 2 strike after we've cleared the chaff.
Even playing for turn 3 isn't impossible.
One day i'll do 40 shots then 142 attacks with my death company intercessors and my life will be complete.
p5freak wrote: Wow, so far i am not impressed. We get DC primaris intercessors (without JP, i guess), and during the assault doctrine +1A, which is in T3. So, footslogging them up the board Or put them in an impulsor, and wait one turn, because you cant charge after the transport has moved. Why is it even called assault vehicle, when you can assault out of it ??
I got to say, I followed this thread that you started, I don't see you very optimistic even in the face of a boost. What would it takes to make you a tad happier?
What boost ? We get +1A in T3, wow. Some games are already over by T3. A litany that does AP-4 on an unmodified roll of 6s, woooow. Litanies are pretty much useless, because the priest has to be on the battlefield before the turn starts. You deepstrike, no litanies. You disembark, no litanies. DC primaris are a nerf. No JP, no deepstrike, no descent of angels. No relocation possible with upon wings of fire. But maybe there will be a stratagem to enable them to charge after disembarking from an impulsor. What about support characters like astorath, lemartes ? Are they primaris ? No, they arent. They have to take JPs and deepstrike along their DC primaris intercessors, when they disembark, because they cannot embark on a primaris only transport.
I hope they drop the points on the old DCJP marines to 15 pts. That would be a boost.
so you're just going to forget about the addition of doctrines, litanies, etc? This is a full on boost for BA. Be my guest and just keep using your existing BA rules.
p5freak wrote: Wow, so far i am not impressed. We get DC primaris intercessors (without JP, i guess), and during the assault doctrine +1A, which is in T3. So, footslogging them up the board Or put them in an impulsor, and wait one turn, because you cant charge after the transport has moved. Why is it even called assault vehicle, when you can assault out of it ??
I got to say, I followed this thread that you started, I don't see you very optimistic even in the face of a boost. What would it takes to make you a tad happier?
What boost ? We get +1A in T3, wow. Some games are already over by T3. A litany that does AP-4 on an unmodified roll of 6s, woooow. Litanies are pretty much useless, because the priest has to be on the battlefield before the turn starts. You deepstrike, no litanies. You disembark, no litanies. DC primaris are a nerf. No JP, no deepstrike, no descent of angels. No relocation possible with upon wings of fire. But maybe there will be a stratagem to enable them to charge after disembarking from an impulsor. What about support characters like astorath, lemartes ? Are they primaris ? No, they arent. They have to take JPs and deepstrike along their DC primaris intercessors, when they disembark, because they cannot embark on a primaris only transport.
I hope they drop the points on the old DCJP marines to 15 pts. That would be a boost.
You see, this is exactly the same mentality you LL find in every other doomsday prophet in every army forum.
You obviously play a lot of BA and a you have been forced to one playstyle by a bad codex .
Even if Thomas Oakey showed the world (twice) that positioning wins you tournaments
However now the army got buffed, Mephiston got 3 powers, we have primaris DC, but that is not enough for you, maybe because you are stuck in that mentality to repeat the same concept over and over again.
I would expect more acmen and more solutions, instead of problems, by somebody that have BA as their main army.
These are 2 wounds and 6+ FNP marines we're talking about, this is already an improvement to their survivability. One could support them with a chaplain and a sanguinary priest. They might be slow to reach their target but it's a treat the opponent can't completely ignore even if he also has to deal with the 15 vanguard primaris and 15 scout placed 9" from his deploiment zone. Yes I play very aggressively.
This update is good vs most lists, but vanilla marines will still wipe up BA like they were grots. I don't think old DC are even good atm, regardless of a couple of tournament wins. One win was in spite of the DCimo, not because of them.
Punching with power armor is hard in 8th. Very hard. There are still 4 pt dummies in our way. Still a ton of invulns in the game. And we still bleed points very quickly on the opponent's turn. Doctrines are probably the biggest help here.
What BA really needed was more survivability and for DoA to hit one unit and two characters, not just one unit.
These are 2 wounds and 6+ FNP marines we're talking about, this is already an improvement to their survivability. One could support them with a chaplain and a sanguinary priest. They might be slow to reach their target but it's a treat the opponent can't completely ignore even if he also has to deal with the 15 vanguard primaris and 15 scout placed 9" from his deploiment zone. Yes I play very aggressively.
This guys are too slow atm. for the 20 pts they cost, old DC needed a better FNP.
still about DC, did Lemartes loose the charge re roll?
I'm astonished Noone mentioned the leaks over in the Bolter and Chainsword BA thread?
Points:
Sanguinor down to 130
Death Company down 2 points
DC Dread down 10
Furioso dread down 10
Sang priest with JP down about 16 points
Sanguard angelus boltguns free,
SG encarmine swords down to 8
Mephiston 145
Flamestorm cannon down 5 points
Stratagems:
Death mask -1 to hit (1 cp Angelus boltguns re roll hit or wounds and ignore cover (1 cp )
FNP 5+++ to a unit (applies to Death Company only) Give extra warlord trait Rapid fire intercessors gain Rapid fire 2
Sanguinary priest can use his healing stuff twice instead of once
Transhuman Physiology
Hammer of Wrath (models with Jump Packs that charge into base-to-base contact cause mortal wounds on 5+)
Relics:
The Librarian one from the preview
+2 to move for jumpack units( Relic for sang ancient only)
crap bolt rifle
relic crozius
new jumpack which allows you to fall back and charge and +1 to the charge roll
Red Thirst: Add +1 to wound and +1 to charge and advance rolls
I'm astonished Noone mentioned the leaks over in the Bolter and Chainsword BA thread?
Points:
Sanguinor down to 130
Death Company down 2 points
DC Dread down 10
Furioso dread down 10
Sang priest with JP down about 16 points
Sanguard angelus boltguns free,
SG encarmine swords down to 8
Mephiston 145
Flamestorm cannon down 5 points
Stratagems:
Death mask -1 to hit (1 cp Angelus boltguns re roll hit or wounds and ignore cover (1 cp )
FNP 5+++ to a unit (applies to Death Company only) Give extra warlord trait Rapid fire intercessors gain Rapid fire 2
Sanguinary priest can use his healing stuff twice instead of once
Transhuman Physiology
Hammer of Wrath (models with Jump Packs that charge into base-to-base contact cause mortal wounds on 5+)
Relics:
The Librarian one from the preview
+2 to move for jumpack units( Relic for sang ancient only)
crap bolt rifle
relic crozius
new jumpack which allows you to fall back and charge and +1 to the charge roll
Red Thirst: Add +1 to wound and +1 to charge and advance rolls
Looks more like a wish list to me.
Sang priest with jump pack was the nail in the coffin seeing as its index only.
I'm liking most of our new stuff, extra attack on round three should give us a mid game boost as we often start to run out of steam by then.
Extra relics, WL traits and strats can't be a bad thing, we are really lacking in some areas. Litanies is a little double edges and a guaranteed re-roll bubble is great but the extra options (i.e extra charge distance) are certainly useful.
I don't play with primaris marines but the DC intercessors seem good, don't look at them as a DC replacement (they are slower and worse in combat) look at them as more survivable and better in combat intercessors.
I'm a little annoyed at the seeming lack of vehicle chapter tactics, just makes fielding any vehicles feel like I'm making a sub par choice. Our stormhawk costs the same as a marine one but misses out on loads of bonuses. Perhaps there is still something to be revealed, seems strange that the flesh tearers have our trait with an added bonus so perhaps there is something to be added to ours? Something to make us move faster would be my guess.
The chapter approved points changes look good overall :-)
Lasty it seems that we still haven't gained access to standard marine psykic powers, it would be so easy to add in. Its not that they are super awesome its just that I think we should get access to the same amount (or more) than chapters like Ironhand and imperial fists.
Really? That's what you focus on in the new points list? Not the significant drops to Sanguinary Guard costs, or DC Dreads, or DC in general? I don't think this is going to propel BA to the top of the meta by any means, but there comes a point when relentless negativity is neither helpful nor healthy.
Those are labeled as leaks from someone who had the chance to see the book and not a wishlist.
Sang Priest makes sense wit JP because we know he gets an upgraded datasheet.
Leaks from CA from reddit. Supports some of the previous post but sang priests arent even on the list
Death co intercessors are elites at 18 ppm. Sang guard and death co with jp both drop 2 pt a model.
original poster also states an faq is going to drop day after CA with points changes for marines
The last point about an FAQ is in keeping with how the Marine Codex's have been treated and definitely something to highlight as a possibility. People have been pointing out the difficulty of interrupting the physical printing process, but an FAQ circumvents that. I'm gonna hold off on any large purchases until things shake out.
Emicrania wrote: I own BA and nids, and boy those nide are a pile of gak compared to all the good stuff BA are getting
Automatically Appended Next Post: EVERYTHING went down in price, DC can use physiology and we got our own chapter trait and doctrines.
Dante went down 65 points (!!!). What does he want more???
Lets see what others get for 150 pts. Azrael is 150 as well, and he has a 6" 4+ inv bubble. This means he can give half of the ENTIRE ARMY (or even the entire army depending on points) a 4+ inv ! What can Dante do for 150 ? Re-roll all failed hits, good luck when you shoot at something that is -1 or -2 to hit. You will only be able to re-roll 1s and 2s. Almost the same as a captain for 74 pts.
Primaris DC come with a transport tax. Or are you going to footslog them down the battlefield ? A transport will be mandatory for them, if you dont want them to die on their way into melee. As for stratagem which can be used on them, we have to wait and see, they could get a new keyword like DEATH COMPANY INTERCESSORS, which would mean some stratagems wouldnt work on them.
I dont see any "significant" point drops, as someone else said. Everything so far is about 10%. Something like 25% would be significant.
Remember that Shrike is only 130pts and he gets a really nice anti character gun and buffs JP units, also have a usable warlord trait and 2 inch extra move. He only loses 2+ save for that. They are about equal in CC with Dante being better against some and Shrike against others. I would take Shrike over Dante at the same point cost.
Shrike is cheap enough that you dont really waste points no matter what he does. With Dante you either lose fighting capability by buffing ranged units, which isnt that good in BA, or you use him in CC but then you could have cheaper options to buff your melee units.
If BA could make a strong shooting castle like IH or some other SM successor then Dante would be a really nice counter punch model but you pay for him being good at 2 things while he can only really do 1 thing at a time in BA.
Emicrania wrote: I own BA and nids, and boy those nide are a pile of gak compared to all the good stuff BA are getting
Automatically Appended Next Post: EVERYTHING went down in price, DC can use physiology and we got our own chapter trait and doctrines.
Dante went down 65 points (!!!). What does he want more???
Lets see what others get for 150 pts. Azrael is 150 as well, and he has a 6" 4+ inv bubble. This means he can give half of the ENTIRE ARMY (or even the entire army depending on points) a 4+ inv ! What can Dante do for 150 ? Re-roll all failed hits, good luck when you shoot at something that is -1 or -2 to hit. You will only be able to re-roll 1s and 2s. Almost the same as a captain for 74 pts.
Primaris DC come with a transport tax. Or are you going to footslog them down the battlefield ? A transport will be mandatory for them, if you dont want them to die on their way into melee. As for stratagem which can be used on them, we have to wait and see, they could get a new keyword like DEATH COMPANY INTERCESSORS, which would mean some stratagems wouldnt work on them.
I dont see any "significant" point drops, as someone else said. Everything so far is about 10%. Something like 25% would be significant.
Azrael aura is only for infantry and WHOLLY WHITIN.
I think Dante is pretty well costed now, perhaps not quite as aggressively as shrike but certainly usable. If he gains the new chapter master wording then he becomes that much better than a captain. Just wish he did something unique.
Heard rumors that the new sanguinary priest datasheet gives him back access to a jumppack, anyone else heard this?
Azrael aura is only for infantry and WHOLLY WHITIN.
So nah, Azrael is pretty weak as a character.
It isnt wholly within, its within, and its for bikers and infantry. Read the rules first, before trying to lecture others. He also brings 1CP when he is the warlord, how many CPs does Dante bring ? 0. His sword makes MW in addition, dantes axe doesnt. His gun is 24" range, Dantes gun range is 6". After comparing Dante should be more like 120.
I think Dante is slightly weaker than Shrike and 125-130pts is where he should be. Could even make a case for 120pts since his CM reroll aura isnt as good in BA as it is in any other chapter.
BA have 0 range buffs and a ton of melee buffs so you wouldnt want a chapter master buffing underperforming ranged units. Buffing your weak points is worse than buffing your strong points if the buff is equal in % aftet all. And for melee units we have 2 amazing chaplains which can give rerolls to hit.
Especially Lemartes who didnt loose his reroll hits aura for DC when he got litanies in addition to what he already have. He is 50pts cheaper than Dante and have reroll charges for DC and litanies outside of rerolls to hit. He is also a beast in CC if he gets his own litany buff off. In T3 he will have 9 ws2+ attacks with rerolls to hit. Str 7 with +1 to wound. ap - 3 and d3+1 damage. Having +1 to charge with built in rerolls as well. I would take him in any list even without a unit of DC. Just keep him back in worst case and in T3 cast Upon Wings/Deepstrike and murder something. For only 100 pts!!! and that is without a single outside buff from other characters or stratagems. He is insanely costed compared to any other character we have access to.
And for Sanguinary Guard we can just have any warlord close by to give them rerolls. Even a model in the unit can be the warlors. So our melee units already have rerolls and our ranged units isnt good enough to give rerolls so for Dante you are mostly paying for his stats. Which isnt worth 50pts over Lemartes. If he had a warlord trait that gave 2-3cp and cp regen on the other hand it would be different. He is after all the oldest, most experienced and most respected commander in the whole Imperium after the Primarchs. Hr should have something to reflect that.
Azrael aura is only for infantry and WHOLLY WHITIN.
So nah, Azrael is pretty weak as a character.
It isnt wholly within, its within, and its for bikers and infantry. Read the rules first, before trying to lecture others. He also brings 1CP when he is the warlord, how many CPs does Dante bring ? 0. His sword makes MW in addition, dantes axe doesnt. His gun is 24" range, Dantes gun range is 6". After comparing Dante should be more like 120.
My fault. It is within but only for models, so no, you can't give a 4++ to all of your army. And yeah it works for bikers but that isn't gonna happen because our bikers have a 4++ when they advance. Dante is much better as a beastick character than Azrael. Azrael works better as a shooting support but even then, he isn't that great. Hes superior to dante just by virtue of shooting being better than meele. Azrael sword is irrelevant 95% of the time, he'll never reach meele.
I've had a read through a really good breakdown of all the stuff for BA in PA3, Goonhammer if you want to take a look yourselves.
Really pleased with it all, we've been given the full space marine treatment - chapter tactic now adds +1 to advance and charge in addition.
- chapter tactics on vehicles now, not that that's much use.
- loads of new relics, some really good.
- 23 strats! Adding in most of the new space marine ones plus various unique one. Especially like the ones that improve death company and sang guard durability.
- Docterines are great for us, with a powerful super doctrine.
- our named chaplains are both really powerful.
- junppacks for sang priest!
- no new BA warlord traits or psy powers :(
Alongside the chapter approved points drops I think an infantry based BA assault army is looking pretty viable
WisdomLS wrote: I've had a read through a really good breakdown of all the stuff for BA in PA3, Goonhammer if you want to take a look yourselves.
Really pleased with it all, we've been given the full space marine treatment - chapter tactic now adds +1 to advance and charge in addition.
- chapter tactics on vehicles now, not that that's much use.
- loads of new relics, some really good.
- 23 strats! Adding in most of the new space marine ones plus various unique one. Especially like the ones that improve death company and sang guard durability.
- Docterines are great for us, with a powerful super doctrine.
- our named chaplains are both really powerful.
- junppacks for sang priest!
- no new BA warlord traits or psy powers :(
Alongside the chapter approved points drops I think an infantry based BA assault army is looking pretty viable
WisdomLS wrote: I've had a read through a really good breakdown of all the stuff for BA in PA3, Goonhammer if you want to take a look yourselves.
Really pleased with it all, we've been given the full space marine treatment - chapter tactic now adds +1 to advance and charge in addition.
- chapter tactics on vehicles now, not that that's much use.
- loads of new relics, some really good.
- 23 strats! Adding in most of the new space marine ones plus various unique one. Especially like the ones that improve death company and sang guard durability.
- Docterines are great for us, with a powerful super doctrine.
- our named chaplains are both really powerful.
- junppacks for sang priest!
- no new BA warlord traits or psy powers :(
Alongside the chapter approved points drops I think an infantry based BA assault army is looking pretty viable
This looks promising.
The super doctrine is what?
I believe we get an additional attack on the charge/when we’re charged/perform heroic intervention in the Assault Doctrine.
We get veteran intercessors.. ok they cost CP, but compared to DC intercessors.. troop/elite slot. 3base attacks/3rd on 1st round of combat. Ld 8/7. And only a single power weapon on both units. So the biggest difference is 6+ fnp and no need to pay CP. For me it's hard to justify crowding the elite slots when you want to optimize troop slot usage.
We now can get 2 4dmg thunder hammers. Give artisan of war to smash cpt as an additional warlord trait. No more free slay the warlord for our opponents. Mephy is smashy for sure, a bit psychic power succesful dependant. Librarian dread has a strat to take half damage in a single phase. Astorath has now it's usage again, real beast and knows total of 5 litanies and can recite two which is great. Start on board, get +2 to charges. UWoF next to deepstruck DC to give them 7" charges. Sang. Guard are really potent too, 2dmg minimum / attack strat. -1 to hit strat etc.
I'm liking this so far. We get the +1 to wound and 1" advance and charge even if we soup up with other Astartes. Biggest concern is can we manage until T2/3 to get our party going. Too often game outcome can be predicted after first two turns.
I'm overall happy with the update to BA. As for where I feel BA players should lean when building their lists, stick with what makes us unique, sanguinary guard or death company, the upon wings of fire strat, and the relic FnP banner.
18 points for a fast unit with fly that puts out a metric boat load of attacks and can threaten more or less any target. A full squad isnt super expensive and with the various strats that can effect them they can be very durable if needed. Any cheaper and they would be an auto take which isnt good for any unit.
18 pts is a lot for a naked unit with no gear except a jump pack. Once you start giving them gear it gets outrageous quickly. A more fair base price would be 14 with jump pack the way 8th ed plays. Getting close is basically suicide in 8th ed, and this cripples power armor melee.
For 14pts I would start each list with 3 DC squads and lemartes at any point level. Even if I only have points for 1 10 man and 2 5 man squads. For 70pts you get 10 bolter shots and 30 ap 1 melee attacks with an 8" charge. I would keep 2 small squads for turn 3 in every single game. Maybe add in a TH in each if not enough in the rest of the list.
18pts, +1 charge and doctrines make them more versatile than before and the new strats make even large squads quite survivable. Pure bolter/swords murder chaff and 15 man squads with strats can tank. In turn 3 even just 3 Thunderhammers make any target sweat a lot.
Turn 1 and you go first or use upon wings they can surprise or at least put a lot of pressure. Turn 2 their bolters get ap 1 and can shred their screens. The surviving models in turn 3 each hit like a melee character on their own with either 6 ap 1 +1 to wound attacks or 5 Thunderhammer attacks. Thats the same as a damn smash captain.
If even 14pt DC wouldnt be good enough for you then I dont think its Blood Angels that are the problem but you. I usually hate the "l2p" argument but it sounds like it would be applicable here.
If I were to play a ork or guard army tailored to defeat my blood angels then im quite sure I wouldnt have much of a chance to win. But most lists I play against are made for tournaments so dont have 50% of their points in screens since they want other units to win against non BA lists. So stop playing people who tailor lists against you on low terrain tables or l2p. BA isnt that bad.
Putting pressure helps you control the board and score objectives so even if you cant kill them you at least push them back. With cheaper units and the new doctrines it should help us keep them back long enough to score the win if not just push through and kill them.
So here’s what I’m going to be testing out first:
Supreme command: Mephy, Sangy, Lemmy
Brigade:
-Libby dread, relic blade jump captain, jump priest
-6x cc scouts
-3x whirlwind castellan,
-3x twin HB tarantula
-SG ancient (sword/bolter)
-10 SG (6 sword/4 fist)
-13 jump DC (10 chainsword/3 fist)
1994 and 16 CP, SGA warlord with fearless aura and fnp banner, then throwing 3 at captain sword for artisan/rage/wing
(May throw a power sword into DC or change a fist to a hammer or something to finish points.)
Game approach: prolong game until savage echoes and abuse it for the endgame.
Deploy scouts, whirlwinds, and tarantulas in hiding as much as possible. Mephy, Libby dread, and captain deploy to deal with threats that try to approach, hopefully also abusing hidden forward scouts to hide via character rule. If needed, Libby dread will jump out first and use duty eternal to stand up to a counterattack. Probable red rampage here also.
-turn 2: SG, SGA, priest, and Sangy land in a bubble, in terrain if possible, and shoot with tactical doctrine buffed angelus. May use angelus gun strat depending on target. (IE if killing it will leave things unscreened for the DC next turn.) SG will likely use transhuman strat to help them live through enemy turn. At this point, I’m likely to have 9 or 10 CP left.
Turn 3: SG star and remaining deployed characters (as well as any scouts that lived and aren’t holding an objective,) move into the red zone to assault. DC land with Lemmy and use descent to charge. With savage echoes/shock assault/assault doctrine, this should be immense pain. Likely to burn CP this turn with red rampage, the SG melee damage one, fight while dying, and honor the chapter among others as needed. Probably at 3 or less CP after turn.
Turn 4+: late game chaos. Hopefully enough characters or remnants of the two major workhorse squads are around to mop up and claim points.
Similar to a 4-1 pure BAGT list I ran from like 2 years ago, and ran something similar recently to go 5-0 in an itc league.
Counterplay: will have a tough time against a player that aggressively tries (and succeeds) to overwhelm my deployed units early, or if terrain is too light and they can’t hide. If it looks too one-sided, may go for broke and try to get first turn and forlorn fury/wings of fire in DC/Lemmy.
Concerns: Very tempted to pay for the charge reroll relic. Also tempted to master artisan the Libby dread instead of relic blade captain. DC are still made of glass for their points, but not as bad as before. Also Lemmy got strictly better, and can bring a random extra buff to the table if he lives past t3, so I’m willing to give them a few tries.
Martel732 wrote: It has nothing to do with my skill or your skill. T4 1w doesnt get far in 8th. 18 pts for t4 w1 no ap and melee focus is still not very good.
They don't need 50% screens. Usually the whole problem is that a handful of points is preventing assault from very expensive ba units.
I think DC are best used as an early CC threat with Forlorn Fury to get them up the board if you go first. Throw them into your opponent's gunline turn 1 and make them deal with them. They'll die, but shouldn't do so until your opponent's turn, reducing the firepower coming back at the rest of your army. If you go second, hide them or Deep Strike them. 18 points for a 4 attack guy with +1 to wound and a Jump Pack isn't bad at all. I still think they're maybe 1-2 points overcosted because they're still a bit too easy to kill, but DC are best used as a throwaway unit who can cause a lot of destruction and disruption in the enemy lines. They're not a premier assault unit by any means and won't be single-handedly winning the game by smashing everything in the enemy army but they definitely have their place.
More generally, I think the BA super doctrine is pretty sub-par and a trap and you shouldn't build around using it. It's nice, but more as a bonus when it works rather than as the focus of the army. The problem is that Assault Doctrine takes 3 turns to turn on and by that time you may have already given up too much of the initiative if you're keeping all your assault units back to benefit from Savage Echoes. 40k games are often decided on turn 3, if not earlier, so you need to be able to make an impact earlier than that. I think it provides a decent boost for Sanguinary Guard as they need to be able to put out more attacks to be effective, but for units like DC that already get loads of attacks I don't think it's as important.
I'm still gathering the pieces. Think I have all the points gather and made some drafts for list ideas. One thing I haven't yet found is furioso fist and blood talons points or either force halberd's points.
Fists should have gone down 10p if they match the DCCW for vanilla's. Halberd didn't have a cost before so if fist goes down 10p, we will have 132p librarian dreadnoughts.. and that is. worth fielding along with Mephy me thinks. What do you think?
Xirax wrote: I'm still gathering the pieces. Think I have all the points gather and made some drafts for list ideas. One thing I haven't yet found is furioso fist and blood talons points or either force halberd's points.
Fists should have gone down 10p if they match the DCCW for vanilla's. Halberd didn't have a cost before so if fist goes down 10p, we will have 132p librarian dreadnoughts.. and that is. worth fielding along with Mephy me thinks. What do you think?
The problem with that is you run out of useful powers very quickly in the Sanguinary Discipline. Both the Dread and Mephiston want Wings, ideally, but only one of them gets to use it per turn. Then you can share out the other buffing powers between them but I'm not sure that's the most efficient way to build an army.
The doctrine isnt anything to build around but it helps keep up pressure after losing models. Also make it feel less painful for you and more painful for the opponent when a unit is kept until turn 3. Now there is an upside and a smaller DC/AM squad can do quite the damage for few points.
But I wouldnt build around having 1000pts in reserve for turn 3 since that is a sure fire way to loose the game. But keeping 2-300pts until turn 3 rather than get them on the board ASAP is a choice.
A 5 man VV squad with all SS and a relic blade on the sergeant is a rather cheap unit that is quite survivable and with 5/6 attacks each even quite lethal and perfect to remove objective campers. Even if those holding the objectives are intercessors.
I look at them from a target saturation point and consecutive turn perspective. For sure quickening and wings of sanguinius are the go to powers for both of them, although 3rd for Mephy most likely be Shield of Sanguinius. Wonder if the relic sarcophacus whatever has it's place. Which powers benefit the most from increased range..hmm.
Also I'm looking my comparison between vanvets with 2p stormshields compared to DC with jump pack. Attacks wise, both get enough imho with all the shock assault etc. 3++ vs. 6+++. I will atleast test out a smallish squad of van vets maybe dropping mid/late game. First turn charge with forlon fury and uwof named chaplain with +2 to charge should have a nice chance to get there. 7" is very much doable. If your opponent has even little screening abilities then it's a waste unless you manage to bubble wrap your target and somehow manage to not kill it. Otherwise it's just 200p unit destroying half of it's points and get shot to pieces on the return fire.
We play on nice terrain heavy boards so that might be colouring my opinion but they always do work. Forlorn fury turn one, either puts you up in their face for a first turn charge or places them in cover mid table to make the opponent deal with them. With the cover bonus and now Transhuman Phys and Refusal to die a big blob of them is hard to shift, nothing does it super efficiently. Even a few left alive usually means alot of chainsword attacks for chaff clearing and the single thunderhammer can put a dent into whatever you want.
If you're worried about screens bring more stuff to clear them, our units have fly making them alot harder to screen against, whirlwinds aren't bad and basic bolters can get the job done as needed. You don't need to clear everything, just target a specific unit that is occupying where you want to go then head in and try to trap something. Punish them for giving you units to hug.
I was thinking a terminator unit with Lightning Claws coming in T3 would be ideal , usually by that time is mostly lighter stuff left on the board or character with high Invu that don't care about high AP or multi dmg They are 175 points and unbuffed Turn3 is 21A 2+ 5++, with sanguinor and Libby behind they can dish out what, 30 something Attacks -2 D1?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also about DC and Sanguinary guard survivability, shrouding from Phobos Libby can be incredibly useful to footslog stuff for a Turn, a well hidden unit of scout can make that unit untargetable. Terrain is a key feature any tournament worth of his name should have enough LoS block to make this viable.
The biggest problem are the pod from Knights and thunderfire cannons
Also about DC and Sanguinary guard survivability, shrouding from Phobos Libby can be incredibly useful to footslog stuff for a Turn, a well hidden unit of scout can make that unit untargetable. Terrain is a key feature any tournament worth of his name should have enough LoS block to make this viable.
I believe that only works on Phobos keyworded units now that BA have the updated Obscuration discipline.
WisdomLS wrote:For me deathcompany are a no-brainer.
We play on nice terrain heavy boards so that might be colouring my opinion but they always do work. Forlorn fury turn one, either puts you up in their face for a first turn charge or places them in cover mid table to make the opponent deal with them. With the cover bonus and now Transhuman Phys and Refusal to die a big blob of them is hard to shift, nothing does it super efficiently. Even a few left alive usually means alot of chainsword attacks for chaff clearing and the single thunderhammer can put a dent into whatever you want.
What ?? You want to waste 5 CP on DC on T1 ?
Emicrania wrote:
Also about DC and Sanguinary guard survivability, shrouding from Phobos Libby can be incredibly useful to footslog stuff for a Turn, a well hidden unit of scout can make that unit untargetable. Terrain is a key feature any tournament worth of his name should have enough LoS block to make this viable.
The biggest problem are the pod from Knights and thunderfire cannons
You cant do that. Shrouding only works on PHOBOS units.
