The problem is the wording sucks. But, you use the stratagem before advancing. To me, that means you can't move, advance, then decide to use this stratagem if your advance roll sucked. The other issue for advancing is the "Do not roll a dice" at the end of the stratagem. If you aren't rolling a dice, then you can't possibly advance. Rolling a d6 for advancing would be the only possible reason a Predator would be rolling a d6 at that time. If you could advance, then this part would be left out. Otherwise it's there for literally no reason.
EDIT: Ok I'm going to add an addendum here after reading the rulebook. For Movement, you add the d6 to the Movement Characteristic when you advance. I was always under the impression they were separate measurements. So the 6" added to the movement characteristic does look like it takes precedence as the advance, hence the do not roll a dice. I'll take the L on that one. Since you don't roll a dice, it looks like this simply makes your advance an automatic 6" unless you're a Baal Pred. The difference for Baal Preds makes sense ruleswise, too. Baal Preds roll 2d6 and take the highest for advancing normally. With the strat, they get the 6+d6 so it'd actually be somewhat useable. That makes me a sad panda.
So earlier I asked about loading up DC and heres what I ran.
5 man JP with 3 chainswords and 2 TH 6 man JP with 3 chainswords and 3 axes
8 man with chainsword and bolters.
My thinking was moving up the bolters and shooting towards objectives, and depending on targets drop in or move advance on them.
In 3 games i used the bolters and axes to bully tau while the hammers took out a ghostkheel. All 3 deployed and i used forlorn fury on the hammers to get close to the ghostkeel. The bolters and axe units went after some infiltrators on objectives and wiped them.
Against Salamanders the bolters ran up behind cover getting an objective while the axes ran the other table side. The hammers came in and i had the axes charge a relic dread with flamers so the hammers could get in with the 3d6 strat. Nearly killed it and then temrinators came in and messed them up.
And last was against 1k sons. The bolters were in the middle and shoot off turn 1. The axes charged some rubrics who eat the attacks with inv saves. The hammers came dropped in and again used the 3d6 strat to charge a contemptor and wipe it.
In all the chaplain sat with the hammers or hammer and axes and only got in cc once. In this 1500 pt list i think a few more points I would add a LR to carry the bolter ones but 5-6 is ok for stopping shooting or popping a mean target but they sit in the open and die.
Hmm LR or SR maybe the flyer? My meta didnt have more than a handful with so many players.
Hi guys after all the talk of inceptors earlier in the thread I was wondering is it possible to mix plasma and assault bolters in one squad? The rules as I read them lead me to believe so:
"all models in the unit may replace their two assault bolters with plasma..."
But I've seen no mention of it so was curious if I had it wrong since shielding the more expensive plasma guys with 2/3 bolters seems like it could be a decent tactic if you are taking the bolter variant anyway with split fire being built in now. Or are those extra wounds just not worth it?
Am i the only one who thinks that its odd that a CC oriented army doesnt have access to the emperors champion from the SM codex ? That guy is a CC beast.
p5freak wrote: Am i the only one who thinks that its odd that a CC oriented army doesnt have access to the emperors champion from the SM codex ? That guy is a CC beast.
Yes, you are.
The Emperor's Champion has been an Imperial Fist first company and then Black Templar exclusive thing since the Heresy. Other chapters have their Company Champions similar in role to the Emperor's Champion. It's just a more elevated position within the ranks of the Black Templars.
Nobody I've ever talked to that plays Blood Angels wants the Emperor's Champion. He's cool and all, for sure, but we have other, better Special Characters for melee. Mephiston, just to name one.
Lib Dreads are still beast for popping high T low save vehicles and monsters. Wings of Sanguinius is stupid easy to get off considering how powerful it is.
Martel732 wrote: It only affects a single psyker. Should probably be warp charge 3 or 4.
I think it's much better than Quickening and it's 2 less warp charge. The incredible mobility you get with 12" of fly on top of your normal move is amazeballs. The attacks on Quickening could very easily be 1 more, which if you can't make it to your target is useless. Obviously it's great when you get the 3, I'm much more of a sucker for things that are guaranteed effects.
Martel732 wrote: Quickening should be 5 warp charge. It's only one psyker.
Can't say I disagree. It doesn't seem worth the charge value for what you get out. You're usually better off just Smiting at that point. The only time I can see it really worth using it is on the Lib Dread since you get the static 3 or 4 damage attacks with a 2+ to hit and wound. It's a much more guaranteed bit of damage than any other options.
Ordered Betrayal at Calth. The price premium over buying Cataphractii and a Contemptor (which I really want, but will require a bit of work to improve the pose) is absolutely negligible for 30 marines and 2 characters. MkIV Sternguard in my immediate future. Anyone been running cataphractii? What loadouts work reasonably well?
Well, take their 4++, and different weapon options compared to SG into account, and imagine a scenario where winning is nice, but you like the models and your main goal is to have fun. In that scenario, are twin claws, or stormbolter and single claw what you would go for? Power fist is better on SG... chainfist is always a rip off.
Were I you, for Cataphracti Terminators (Which are the only one's I'd look at next to Assault Terminators) I'd consider running 4x Lightning Claw and 1x Heavy Flamer + Power Fist. Alternatively, just run 5x Lightning Claw. I like the ability to help have something for Overwatch myself, but it is cheaper to run all lightning claws points wise.
The terminator stratagem, Srike of the Archangels works very well for them also. Rerolling all to hit, and if you have a librarian nearby for Unleash Rage for +1 attack on that turn, even better.
I suspect you'll have pretty good luck with them, as they should be able to weather a good amount of firepower short of mortal wound spam and get in to rip some targets apart, especially with Red Thirst helping those lightning claws get wounds on a target.
Thanks for the insight Red Thirst; would you take the claws in pairs? If things start running away from the termies some dakka seems clutch, and 4 S4 shots seems like a better option than 4 extra CC attacks. Thoughts?
Bremon wrote: Thanks for the insight Red Thirst; would you take the claws in pairs? If things start running away from the termies some dakka seems clutch, and 4 S4 shots seems like a better option than 4 extra CC attacks. Thoughts?
Yes, I'd run all claws on 4 of them, with a heavy flamer and a power fist on the 5th model. Drop them in as part of an assault element (Death Company or similar) and a supporting character (Librarian/Sanguinary Priest/Chaplain/Captain) and saturate your opponent with targets.
You've got a lot of shooting elements you can bring to bear from other sources. Not many have the option for paired lightning claws, especially on a durable platform such as the Cataphracti pattern armor. Twelve attacks with claws, plus another two powerfist swings is pretty stellar, especially if you can get re-rolls on the to-hit rolls via aura effect or stratagem noted above, coupled with automatic re-rolls on all to-wound rolls they make with their claws. Odds are good you'll get 9 to 10 (or maybe more) wounds on a target at AP: -2. Let the choppy things chop, let the shooty things shoot.
You can certainly try Combi-Bolters on them with a single lightning claw if you prefer it. Though, I would always spring for the Grenade Harness on the Sergeant if you can. 12" Range D6 shot Bolt Rifle stat weapon is pretty great.
Ultimately, if you want them to help clear chaff/troops at range then throw the Combi-Bolters on them, if you want to leave the shooting to other stuff in your force, then I'd run paired claws. Powerfists are also excellent, since they get D3 damage per hit, and with Strike of the Archangels in play you'll get a reroll to hit on every attack from that squad at a clutch moment. All the options are worth it, in my opinion, it's just what do you plan on using them for? What role will they fill in your army? That'll help determine what kind of weapons you equip them with.
My personal squad would be a Sergeant w/ Grenade Harness and 2x Lightning Claws, a Squad Member with a Power Fist and Heavy Flamer, and 3x squad members with paired Lightning Claws.
Hoodwink wrote: I think it's much better than Quickening and it's 2 less warp charge. The incredible mobility you get with 12" of fly on top of your normal move is amazeballs. The attacks on Quickening could very easily be 1 more, which if you can't make it to your target is useless. Obviously it's great when you get the 3, I'm much more of a sucker for things that are guaranteed effects.
Wings is great T1-2 when you need to close the distance rapidly. But once you are up close, Quickening is often better as you need the extra attacks more than the extra move. I do agree that WC7 is a bit high for Quickening though. I think 6 would be plenty.
Bremon wrote: Well, take their 4++, and different weapon options compared to SG into account, and imagine a scenario where winning is nice, but you like the models and your main goal is to have fun. In that scenario, are twin claws, or stormbolter and single claw what you would go for? Power fist is better on SG... chainfist is always a rip off.
They have only 4" movement, they cant use descent of angels, they cant be relocated with upon wings of fire. They dont even have a teleport homer. If you deepstrike them with twin claws and fail the charge your opponent will simply move away and probably ignore them (thats what i would do). With snail like speed, and half speed advancing, your termis will achieve nothing.
Strike of the archangels is 2 CP, sang guard have a similiar ability already built in, when they are within 6" of the warlord. One termi is 40 pts. with single claw and stormbolter, one sang guard is ~35 pts with encarmine sword and angelus boltgun. Encarmine sword is superior to claw. Stormbolter has twice as many shots at 12", but no AP.
Bremon wrote: Well, take their 4++, and different weapon options compared to SG into account, and imagine a scenario where winning is nice, but you like the models and your main goal is to have fun. In that scenario, are twin claws, or stormbolter and single claw what you would go for? Power fist is better on SG... chainfist is always a rip off.
They have only 4" movement, they cant use descent of angels, they cant be relocated with upon wings of fire. They dont even have a teleport homer. If you deepstrike them with twin claws and fail the charge your opponent will simply move away and probably ignore them (thats what i would do). With snail like speed, and half speed advancing, your termis will achieve nothing.
Strike of the archangels is 2 CP, sang guard have a similiar ability already built in, when they are within 6" of the warlord. One termi is 40 pts. with single claw and stormbolter, one sang guard is ~35 pts with encarmine sword and angelus boltgun. Encarmine sword is superior to claw. Stormbolter has twice as many shots at 12", but no AP.
Freak, Dude, if he wants to run Cataphracti Terminators, let the guy run Cataphracti Terminators. Your presence in this thread is constantly negative, and frankly starting to really detract from the discussion here.
He didn't ask if he should run Terminators or Sanguinary Guard. Bremon asked how to best equip a squad of Cataphracti Terminators. If you're not going to offer advice on that, then you should probably not say anything further, yea? He told you he doesn't want to run Sanguinary Guard, he likes the look of Cataphracti and wants to run them instead. Offer advice on that now and stop trying to convince him to run a squad he doesn't want to run, please.
If I was to run Cataphracti Terminators, I would at least want to give them a ranged weapon.
They can drop in and take shots at another unit before trying to charge, and if they fail their charge, they have at least done SOMETHING instead of just standing there like dopes.
Bremon wrote: Well, take their 4++, and different weapon options compared to SG into account, and imagine a scenario where winning is nice, but you like the models and your main goal is to have fun. In that scenario, are twin claws, or stormbolter and single claw what you would go for? Power fist is better on SG... chainfist is always a rip off.
They have only 4" movement, they cant use descent of angels, they cant be relocated with upon wings of fire. They dont even have a teleport homer. If you deepstrike them with twin claws and fail the charge your opponent will simply move away and probably ignore them (thats what i would do). With snail like speed, and half speed advancing, your termis will achieve nothing.
Strike of the archangels is 2 CP, sang guard have a similiar ability already built in, when they are within 6" of the warlord. One termi is 40 pts. with single claw and stormbolter, one sang guard is ~35 pts with encarmine sword and angelus boltgun. Encarmine sword is superior to claw. Stormbolter has twice as many shots at 12", but no AP.
Encarmine sword is only superior with a warlord babysitter, and only re-rolls wounds with a Lt or SG Ancient. They have no invulnerable save. You admit angelus bolters aren’t good (SB >special issue boltgun >bolt rifle >angelus). What do your tables look like that you can have multiple units run away from something unimpeded for an entire game. I’ve had plenty of times where deathshroud or blightlords have a chance to put some hurt on me, and if I don’t dedicate a ton of firepower at them, continue to hurt me despite their Cataphractii armour. Hyperbolic judgement of units as fantastic or trash doesn’t help this thread.
Red__Thirst wrote: He didn't ask if he should run Terminators or Sanguinary Guard. Bremon asked how to best equip a squad of Cataphracti Terminators. If you're not going to offer advice on that, then you should probably not say anything further, yea? He told you he doesn't want to run Sanguinary Guard, he likes the look of Cataphracti and wants to run them instead. Offer advice on that now and stop trying to convince him to run a squad he doesn't want to run, please.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
I enjoy SG, and have asked about them in this thread, I have 5 on order and will likely end up with 10. That said, variety is the spice of life and they realistically aren’t all that great either. They’re flying vanilla termies with worse bolters. A warlord Ancient and command points are the key to making them work. Like cataphractii, they look great and I enjoy the minis. I appreciate your input on a loadout for the turtlenators.
What do you all think of Stormhawk Interceptors vs. Stormraven Gunships? Right now in the BA list I'm working on I really need some anti-vehicle. My list is all infantry except for a Librarian Dreadnought which means that most vehicles really don't have a place in that list. Stormhawk's seem pretty durable even if they have 4 less wounds than a Gunship, but they are about 150 points cheaper which means for the cost of one Stormraven I get 1.75 Hawks.
Red Comet wrote: What do you all think of Stormhawk Interceptors vs. Stormraven Gunships? Right now in the BA list I'm working on I really need some anti-vehicle. My list is all infantry except for a Librarian Dreadnought which means that most vehicles really don't have a place in that list. Stormhawk's seem pretty durable even if they have 4 less wounds than a Gunship, but they are about 150 points cheaper which means for the cost of one Stormraven I get 1.75 Hawks.
I'd run a Stormhawk in lieu of a Predator (or as a harder to hit predator alternative). Kitted out for anti-vehicle work, Las-talon, Typhoon Missile Launcher, and paired Assault Cannons, it looks pretty decent in my opinion. It should be suitably effective at the anti-vehicle role. Just gotta be careful with placement, as it doesn't have the option to Hover like the Storm Raven or Storm Talon. This isn't a critical deficiency, but it does mean you have to be a lot more cognizant of how you place it and where it moves.
My only complaint is that it is always going to hit on 4+ against any ground targets you shoot at if you kit it with the paired Assault Cannons, Typhoon Launcher, and Las-talon. If you're hunting other flyers with it, you do get +1 to hit though, so back to 3+, but for any and all ground attack you're going to hit on 4+ before any other dings to your vehicle happen (such as enemy -1 to hit traits), or the flyer is reduced in wounds sufficiently to get the -1 to hit, or both.
Try it out and see, I think it could work.
Also, pardon the random segue, but call me curious: What is your avatar image on here from? I've seen it somewhere and I can't recall where, which is bugging me.
Red Comet wrote: What do you all think of Stormhawk Interceptors vs. Stormraven Gunships? Right now in the BA list I'm working on I really need some anti-vehicle.
Nothing. There is a better anti vehicle flyer, and its not the stormtalon.
Red Comet wrote: What do you all think of Stormhawk Interceptors vs. Stormraven Gunships? Right now in the BA list I'm working on I really need some anti-vehicle. My list is all infantry except for a Librarian Dreadnought which means that most vehicles really don't have a place in that list. Stormhawk's seem pretty durable even if they have 4 less wounds than a Gunship, but they are about 150 points cheaper which means for the cost of one Stormraven I get 1.75 Hawks.
I'd run a Stormhawk in lieu of a Predator (or as a harder to hit predator alternative). Kitted out for anti-vehicle work, Las-talon, Typhoon Missile Launcher, and paired Assault Cannons, it looks pretty decent in my opinion. It should be suitably effective at the anti-vehicle role. Just gotta be careful with placement, as it doesn't have the option to Hover like the Storm Raven or Storm Talon. This isn't a critical deficiency, but it does mean you have to be a lot more cognizant of how you place it and where it moves.
My only complaint is that it is always going to hit on 4+ against any ground targets you shoot at if you kit it with the paired Assault Cannons, Typhoon Launcher, and Las-talon. If you're hunting other flyers with it, you do get +1 to hit though, so back to 3+, but for any and all ground attack you're going to hit on 4+ before any other dings to your vehicle happen (such as enemy -1 to hit traits), or the flyer is reduced in wounds sufficiently to get the -1 to hit, or both.
Try it out and see, I think it could work.
Also, pardon the random segue, but call me curious: What is your avatar image on here from? I've seen it somewhere and I can't recall where, which is bugging me.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
I was going to go with that exact loadout on it actually. I agree that hitting on a 4+ is not that great which is my biggest issue with it. I'm going to give it a shot. My biggest issue is that my entire list is infantry based except the Hawks. I don't want to see them get knocked out of the sky turn 1.
The avatar is from Yu-Gi-Oh! It's a card called 'Fabled Grimro'. I also used it as my avatar on a Yu-Gi-Oh forum years ago.
p5freak wrote:
Red Comet wrote: What do you all think of Stormhawk Interceptors vs. Stormraven Gunships? Right now in the BA list I'm working on I really need some anti-vehicle.
Nothing. There is a better anti vehicle flyer, and its not the stormtalon.
Are you referring to the Storm Eagle or that other FW flyer?
Relic vehicle wise (speaking of FW units), lets say I want a Sicaran.. do I have to have another heavy support unit before I field one; it can't be the only FOC of that type in your army, right?
Another question.. is there anything better than Interceptors for screen clearing?
Razerous wrote: Relic vehicle wise (speaking of FW units), lets say I want a Sicaran.. do I have to have another heavy support unit before I field one; it can't be the only FOC of that type in your army, right?
If your army is battle forged no detachment may contain more relic units than it does non relic units of the same battlefield role. Yes, if you have one elite relic unit (the sicaran is elite) you need at least one non elite relic unit in the same detachment.
I've got approx 160-170pts to field a unit.. although if the Sicaran Battle Tank is an elite choice (Thought it was heavy support?) then I'm fine, thanks to the Death Company in my army too!
Razerous wrote: Like what = in a BA Army. Jump pack melee heavy.
Thats what i thought, only BA narrows it down quite a lot. Company veterans with stormbolters (JP or bike). Aggressors, either with boltstorm or flamestorm. Landspeeders with twin heavy flamers, or heavy bolter and assault cannon.
I've got approx 160-170pts to field a unit.. although if the Sicaran Battle Tank is an elite choice (Thought it was heavy support?) then I'm fine, thanks to the Death Company in my army too!
Well, it's base 22 pts more than a razorback, but provides killshot support and CP by filling a real slot. And it does outrange a twin AC razor with its heavy bolters.
Martel732 wrote: Well, it's base 22 pts more than a razorback, but provides killshot support and CP by filling a real slot. And it does outrange a twin AC razor with its heavy bolters.
I'm only bringing razors for lascannons now.
A baal pred with twin AC is 144 pts. which is overpriced, 124 would be ok. A razorback with twin AC is 114 pts. and can carry 6 models. Thats 30 pts. Getting 1 CP will cost you 90 pts. for 3 baal preds. RAW, baal preds cant use killshot. The BAFAQ didnt say anything about it, so no killshot for baal preds.
NH Gunsmith wrote: If I was to run Cataphracti Terminators, I would at least want to give them a ranged weapon.
They can drop in and take shots at another unit before trying to charge, and if they fail their charge, they have at least done SOMETHING instead of just standing there like dopes.
One problem I find with deep strikers that both shoot and charge is that if their shooting can actually make the charge harder or impossible. Ugghhhh This just doesn't apply to terminators but its far worse for them since they aren't that mobile.
But yeah shooty terminators can be pretty good if geared up right
Considering the guys who run the ITC are working hand in hand with GW, helping them playtest and just generally know GWs intentions ahead of time regarding rules issues, I'd say if they're saying Baal Preds get to use Killshot, you can assume GW will say Baal Preds can use Killshot.
It's coming. They didn't put in wall of firepower for the Baal, so I'm sure RAI is to use killshot. Baals can help fill out battalions and brigades, too.
For a while I have been using 5 man Devastator Squads with 4 heavy weapons. However, in the last four games I haven't gone first a single time, and I have learned an important lesson. 4 expensive heavy weapons like Missile Launchers is a juicy target for an opponent. They generally get hit pretty hard Turn 1.
So would going 3 Missile Launchers, Bolter dude and a Cherub be a better loadout? The Bolter dude as an ablative wound, and the Cherub to give them one turn of throwing out 4 Missile shots. I plan to use Missile Launchers over Lascannons just because I like the way they look better.
I am thinking of dropping both of my Twin-Las/CCW Dreads to add 2 more 3 Missile, 1 Bolter dude and a Cherub Devastator Squads. The points savings allows me to take a Company Ancient so that even if the Devastators start getting hit pretty hard Turn 1, they still have a chance to get a few Missile shots off. I think that the Company Ancient with the relic banner would also be a decent buff to the 3 Devastator Squads as well.
Would love to hear some thoughts from you guys on that.
Martel732 wrote: I like devastator squads with two weapons per 5, myself. Fills up slots faster and your weapons are more protected.
Or go the full 10 men, 4 weapons if you want to use auspex scan.
Hmm. I hadn't thought of going down to 2 weapons per squad. I don't need to fill Heavy Support slots though since I run 2 Battalion Detachments. The added meat shields does seem nice though.
Devastators need 1 ablative wound per heavy weapon imo. The cherub counts as one in my book.
Finally got SG in today, and have another box on the way. I really ought to have googled the sprues. One fist is in the box is a joke. Worse yet, the tac squad fist is left handed, so it’s tougher to swap my spares in. At this point I’ll either use axes as “counts as” power fists, or sprinkle in some plasma pistols (in the right hand rather than the wrist mounted unique ones) to make use of some left handed fists.
Edit; just realized I have some Vanguard fists that might be right handed. The DC fist isn’t too blatantly DC so that could work as well since I won’t end up putting fists on them. Still a pain in the backside.
Bremon wrote: Devastators need 1 ablative wound per heavy weapon imo. The cherub counts as one in my book.
Finally got SG in today, and have another box on the way. I really ought to have googled the sprues. One fist is in the box is a joke. Worse yet, the tac squad fist is left handed, so it’s tougher to swap my spares in. At this point I’ll either use axes as “counts as” power fists, or sprinkle in some plasma pistols (in the right hand rather than the wrist mounted unique ones) to make use of some left handed fists.
Edit; just realized I have some Vanguard fists that might be right handed. The DC fist isn’t too blatantly DC so that could work as well since I won’t end up putting fists on them. Still a pain in the backside.
Hey I have some spare Blood Angels Tactical Squad Powerfists. PM me if your interested.
On another note; how does emergency disembark from a destroyed transport work? I tried the surround/trap method and we spent some time discussing it and we didn’t come to a happy conclusion, we compromised and continued playing.
When the enemy disembarks does the base have to be wholly within 3” of the transport or just up to 3” away? Is the model able to deploy that far away if it doesn’t have enough space between my units bases to move through? If either of those questions falls in my favour then 3 characters and 7 plague marines ought to have been killed, but we played it in such a way that only 2 plague marines ended up dead (plus one from the vehicle exploding). Thanks for any input.
I believe to disembark the model must be able to be placed within 3 inches of the transport ( not wholly) and and inch from enemies. The idea is to keep large squads from placing models and forcing the remaining to roll and on a 1 they are also slain.
Bremen, yeah you don't have to be fully within 3". I showed my group that when they atarted complaining that Inwas placing my models too far away from the transports. The difference between within and wholly within is clarified for us, that extra inch or so by just placing the very back of the front rank of a squad can mean the difference between them living or not, or making a charge or not.
But, does disembarking units count as moving out of the vehicle or being placed? I don't have my rulebook on me. If they are placed, yeah, I don't see why they couldn't be placed past your models as long as they aren't within 1" of them. If it is a movement, than no, they can't. When you go to surround a vehicle, keep your models exactly at 1" away from the vehicle and just under 1" away from each other The new Marine bases will make it impossible for them to deploy their models so they are all slain. That is what I do when surrounding a vehicle because it removes all argument.
I posted in YMDC and had it clarified. And your method USB the perfect method for marines NH. It’s not super simple but I think I may try larger squads to deepstrike and ruin transports for my opponent. Seems fairly viable, and will likely scare my next regular opponent out of using transports much lol.
Bremon wrote: I posted in YMDC and had it clarified. And your method USB the perfect method for marines NH. It’s not super simple but I think I may try larger squads to deepstrike and ruin transports for my opponent. Seems fairly viable, and will likely scare my next regular opponent out of using transports much lol.
One of my opponents fears running both of his Land Raiders at once due to me surrounding them while they were full with cheap squads toting an Inferno Pistol each. 1600 points neutered right off the bat while I mopped up the rest of the army. It was hilarious (for me).
Well. After watching a lot of battle reports with various Marine armies and comparing them to my games, I am sold on Scouts and plan on adding four 5 man squads of them to my collection to replace my four 5 man Tactical Squads with Hand Flamer/Power Fist and Flamer. Those Tac Squads, while fairly cheap, often end up doing very little and seem unnecessary now that I have converted my Assault Marines over to Death Company and rolled in a few Power Fists into them.
I know I want two of the squads to be Bolt Pistol and Combat Knife, but am a bit stuck on what to do with the other two and can't decide between these two loadouts:
-5x Bolter
-4x Bolter, Heavy Bolter
I like the idea of the 5 Bolter squad since it keeps them as cheap and mobile objective grabbers, but after seeing the Hellfire Shells strategem being put to good use in a few games it seems like it can come in handy. However... having to spend a CP on it means less CP to use for our Blood Angels shenanigans and that makes it a bit less attractive.
Bolters only is my vote. So far the heavy bolter doesn’t do much for me. I’ve only proxied the scouts a few times but they get mangled before they can do anything of worth (granted, I use them as speed bumps) and I never feel like spending the CP on hellfire rather than something else.
For my scouts, personally, I went with Close Combat Blades across the board, coupled with pistols.
Keep them cheap, as Bremon said. I find that if I keep them hidden/on an objective, and occasionally run them with Camo Cloaks as well, they're pretty durable for their points.
They also punch way above their weight class with Red Thirst and 2 attacks each. I only run a squad of 5 of them, though.
I'll likely make another 5 man squad in the future and kit them for shooting (Bolters across the board, maybe a combi-plasma on the sergeant perhaps?) and give them camo cloaks as well, for general purpose.
Red__Thirst wrote: For my scouts, personally, I went with Close Combat Blades across the board, coupled with pistols.
Keep them cheap, as Bremon said. I find that if I keep them hidden/on an objective, and occasionally run them with Camo Cloaks as well, they're pretty durable for their points.
They also punch way above their weight class with Red Thirst and 2 attacks each. I only run a squad of 5 of them, though.
I'll likely make another 5 man squad in the future and kit them for shooting (Bolters across the board, maybe a combi-plasma on the sergeant perhaps?) and give them camo cloaks as well, for general purpose.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Yeah, that is what I am going to end up doing. Two 5 man Pistol/CCW weapon squads and two 5 man Bolter squads for a little bit of added range. That way I can mix it up in my army while keeping the points the same.
Sounds like a pretty good plan to me. Run them cheap, expect nothing from them, and be pleased when they accomplish something beyond helping deny deep strikes and unlocking command points.
I’m building a DC captain, standard captain, and a lieutenant at this point. Any reason for them not to basically all be given thunder hammers? Fists are less than ideal with D3 damage, and everything else is basically 1 damage which won’t scare the types of enemies our primary beatstick characters ought to be in combat with. As you can tell, my mind is mostly made up but I’m certainly open to hearing other opinions.
If you are tooling up characters for CC, the Thunder Hammer is a logical choice. If you want to mulch tough infantry then you could maybe make a case for a Relic Blade but overall I think TH is hard to beat.
5man Intercessor, bolt rifles, grenade launcher, chainsword on Sgt
5man scouts, bolters, chainsword on Sgt
7man Tactical squad, bolters, heavy bolter, chainsword on Sgt
Vanguard
Lemartes
15man Death company + jump packs + 15x boltgun + 1x power fist + 14x chainsword
10man Sanguinary guard + Angelus boltguns & encarmine swords
Sanguinary ancient + angelus boltgun & encarmine sword + Relic Banner
Company Ancient + power sword
1999 points.
Do you agree with me, that if someone would have published this list on list section, it would probably got complaints about lack of anti-armour elements? I can see how that list is played, but is the Company ancient more than a filler?
There was other BA stuff on top 8 lists, Mephy and JP captain's with storm shields and thunder hammers as supreme command detachment etc. Weird to see BA on the top tables, I've got a BA&DA list that I want to try out next, even that I love mono-builds and really nice to see a mono-BA, with insignia units that high in a major tournament.
I looked heavily at Mark's run through the event. He played nids, ad mech, and multiple chaos, so hasn't had to stare down the barrel of an eldar yet. Pretty good matchup luck. I know from personal and painful experience that dark reapers will chew up primaris and sanguinary guard, even with the fnp banner nearby. Pretty sure he will absolutely have to play one in the semi's and possibly again in finals if they do top 8 pairings like I think they do. There are four pure eldar up there after all.
Even then the games have been close, some of them scarily close, and his tiebreakers have suffered. A tie would've cut him from top 8, and a loss would send him way down to 30th. Tightrope walking!
Overall his list is competitive and seems well designed in light of how the itc missions work. I wish him luck in the top 8.
Assembled another 5 VV for a full squad of ten. I’m very much looking forward to assembling death company and more Primaris. Vanguard were a breath of fresh air compared to Sanguinary Guard, which I would say is one of the most mediocre kits I’ve ever bought from GW where fit/finish/ease of assembly is considered. With some effort the final result is pretty good but...the strategy I’m taking away from the experience is “never have the need to play more than 10 SG and an Ancient” lol. Even the feathered pauldron drives me crazy because the fit is mediocre without some work, and GW puts it on the chapter badge pauldron rather than the side with company markings.
On tactica topic; I’m happy to see a pure BA list doing well, and I’m shocked that he’s using a max squad of both DC and SG. Even the amount of characters he’s using and the percentage of his points they represent flies in the face of how I design my list. Very nice to see intercessors fielded. I’ve consistently had better results with them than Tac Squads that cost similar points with a special or heavy weapon.
Bremon wrote: Assembled another 5 VV for a full squad of ten. I’m very much looking forward to assembling death company and more Primaris. Vanguard were a breath of fresh air compared to Sanguinary Guard, which I would say is one of the most mediocre kits I’ve ever bought from GW where fit/finish/ease of assembly is considered. With some effort the final result is pretty good but...the strategy I’m taking away from the experience is “never have the need to play more than 10 SG and an Ancient” lol. Even the feathered pauldron drives me crazy because the fit is mediocre without some work, and GW puts it on the chapter badge pauldron rather than the side with company markings.
On tactica topic; I’m happy to see a pure BA list doing well, and I’m shocked that he’s using a max squad of both DC and SG. Even the amount of characters he’s using and the percentage of his points they represent flies in the face of how I design my list. Very nice to see intercessors fielded. I’ve consistently had better results with them than Tac Squads that cost similar points with a special or heavy weapon.
Intercessors are the best troops we can field: 90 points for 10 wounds, a decent bolter with an annoying AP -1 and improved range, they are not that bad in combat if you want to spend 4 additional points to make your sgt a bit more killy with that juicy power sword. They become a nightmare when in cover and they can hold an objective for the whole game. Additionally they can also protect your devastator squads / hellblasters.
5 men tactical squad are utter garbage while bolter scouts are better but still not as much useful as intercessors: these guys rock!
Yep, totally agree. Intercessors are a great bully unit. Their AP counteracts cover bonus, their +1 attack and wound over tac marines means you can’t send trash like a marine assault squad to dislodge them from an objective. Tac Squads get steamrolled quickly while Intercessor Squads give my regular opponent pause. I still use the occasional tac squad but I have 20 intercessors and will likely get ten more to have a nice variety of assault bolt rifle and standard bolt rifles.
Intercessors are the best troops we can field: 90 points for 10 wounds, a decent bolter with an annoying AP -1 and improved range, they are not that bad in combat if you want to spend 4 additional points to make your sgt a bit more killy with that juicy power sword. They become a nightmare when in cover and they can hold an objective for the whole game. Additionally they can also protect your devastator squads / hellblasters.
5 men tactical squad are utter garbage while bolter scouts are better but still not as much useful as intercessors: these guys rock!
So thats why every batallion has them ? No wait, scouts are in pretty much every batallion. Its great how they cant embark a LR, while terminators and JP infantry can Also nice how they increase your deployment count, because they cant go in any transport, except the repulsor. Who wants first turn anyway ? Also their weapon choices are fantastic. They can choose from 4, wow, so impressive. Company vets have 24 The models itself look great, though. I like the proportions.
At least you put that silver lining in the end there p5freak. Takes the edge off all that biting sarcasm. Tac marine minis are twisted little monkeys in comparison.
Bremon wrote: At least you put that silver lining in the end there p5freak. Takes the edge off all that biting sarcasm. Tac marine minis are twisted little monkeys in comparison.
Hah, mine look even more hilarious since they are all metal minis from the mid 90's with newer Tactical Squad arms... They all look super gangly but buff as heck.
Lol if they’re from the 90s I’m sure they’ve seen enough tables to be Company veterans at least by now lol. Plus, even by that description I’d have a difficult time believing they could look worse than scouts. Not even GW promo pics can make those 80s action heroes look decent.
Intercessors are the best troops we can field: 90 points for 10 wounds, a decent bolter with an annoying AP -1 and improved range, they are not that bad in combat if you want to spend 4 additional points to make your sgt a bit more killy with that juicy power sword. They become a nightmare when in cover and they can hold an objective for the whole game. Additionally they can also protect your devastator squads / hellblasters.
5 men tactical squad are utter garbage while bolter scouts are better but still not as much useful as intercessors: these guys rock!
So thats why every batallion has them ? No wait, scouts are in pretty much every batallion. Its great how they cant embark a LR, while terminators and JP infantry can Also nice how they incre
ase your deployment count, because they cant go in any transport, except the repulsor. Who wants first turn anyway ? Also their weapon choices are fantastic. They can choose from 4, wow, so impressive. Company vets have 24 The models itself look great, though. I like the proportions.
Let s be honest: the way you adress your ideas is disgusting and you shall read what you are typing before sending: how in the world am I increasing the drops when you need 3 troops slots for your battalion? Hello?
You have the attitude of a 3 years old boy it s time for you to grow up don't you think?
Let s be honest: the way you adress your ideas is disgusting and you shall read what you are typing before sending: how in the world am Iincreasing the drops when you need 3 troops slots for your battalion? Hello?
You have the attitude of a 3 years old boy it s time for you to grow up don't you think?
Lets see. You need 3 standard units and 2 HQ units for a battalion. If i have 3 units of 5 scouts all of them can go in a LR crusader, plus 1 HQ. The deployment count is 2. The LR crusader plus 1 HQ. Your 3 units of 5 model intercessors cant go in the LR crusader, your deployment count is 4. The 2 HQ enter the LR crusader, but your intercessors cant. A repulsor can only transport 10 intercessor models. Your deployment count is reduced by 1, but its still more than 2. That how intercessors increase your deployment count. I suggest you learn the deployment rules before you post.
Are you serious about placing scouts inside a land raider? Really? Please enlighten me because I always thought that scouts are there to deny deep strike to key units, not for sitting into a land raider.
Spado wrote: Are you serious about placing scouts inside a land raider? Really? Please enlighten me because I always thought that scouts are there to deny deep strike to key units, not for sitting into a land raider.
So, denying deepstrike is the only way to play them ? I disagree.
Yup, putting them in a LRC might cut drops, but it's still silly, because running them in a LRC isn't making any use of their best skillset. So, congrats (?), you cut drops by taking units out of their best battlefield role.
Let's say you do field them in a LRC, probably because you desperately want the alpha and the CPs, so drop count is paramount. Do we really want three squads of scouts in a LR in an alpha list? IDK, but it doesn't seem super sexy. Also, scouts are cheap troops for CPs, but that benefit also disappears when you stuff them in a LRC (the battle field role of which is never to transport scouts, in any good list). You're wasting the scouts and (mostly) the transport capacity of the LRC, which costs too much to be efficient as a scout delivery system.
Sorry man, I don't see it. Maybe I've missed something though...
Let's say you do field them in a LRC, probably because you desperately want the alpha and the CPs, so drop count is paramount. Do we really want three squads of scouts in a LR in an alpha list? IDK, but it doesn't seem super sexy. Also, scouts are cheap troops for CPs, but that benefit also disappears when you stuff them in a LRC (the battle field role of which is never to transport scouts, in any good list). You're wasting the scouts and (mostly) the transport capacity of the LRC, which costs too much to be efficient as a scout delivery system.
Sorry man, I don't see it. Maybe I've missed something though...
What is the role of the LR crusader ? Its not to transport models ? Enlighten me.
Gotta say, after a weekend that showed BA elements and lists perform extremely well at the LVO, I didn't expect the current conversation to be about how good or bad it is to lower your drop count by jamming 3 scout Squads into a Land Raider...
Have you read this thread Voidwraith? Some people take it upon themselves to be blackholes sucking up all the positivity and excitement.
That said, it’s hard not to be excited at BA doing well at LVO. He was apparently fairly lucky with his matchups but we can all find a silver lining in his high placement and, in my opinion, the Intercessor presence in his list. Too many characters for my liking but just seeing a whole list of the sons of Sanguinius has me feeling more excited for a game this week. Plus, having 20 new jump pack models to use has me feeling good too.
Sadly, I heard and watched the stream to confirm. Mark made a big illegal move that had huge ramifications in round 5 of the swiss. He burned the 3d6 charge strat on captain hammer, which got him past a line of berserkers and onto a fire raptor, which he super-lucked out and blew up, crippling a ton of Jared's units that were all around the thing. Jared was ahead and looking like the favorite prior to that.
The issue is that captain hammer did not deep strike or wings of fire that turn, so he couldn't have used the 3d6 charge. So now the only pure BA list to make it to top 8 has an asterisk next to it, not to mention the incredible luck of dodging every eldar matchup all through the Swiss. (Which for anyone who didn't know, he lost to he first eldar he came across in top 8.)
The especially crappy part is that Jared directly asked him if he was allowed to use the stratagem anytime, and he said yes. This means that he likely illegally used the strata in some other games as well.
Blood Angels faired best of all Adeptes Asartes chapters at the LVO in the Top 20 - Blood Angel lists saw 4 lists with at least partial elements of Blood Angels in them. ALL of them had Lemartes - 10 - 15 Death Company Jump Packs (2-4 power weapons) in them. Most had DC with SG (Swords) with Sanguinary Ancient, Sanguinor. All but 1 BA list in the top contained elements of AM, Sororitas, or DA.
The only pure Blood Angel list placed in the top 10 and included the above plus 4 Intercessor squads with a unit of scouts and a tac squad for troops. Pure list included Cappy with JP (angels wings) THSS Artisan of War, Sang Priest with JP chainsword/SB and a JP Libby with staff and SB. Company Ancient and Sang Ancient (Std Sacrifice) in there as well. These units as well as a Mephiston sighting in two of these made an appearance. That's it - no other BA premier units in the top 20 units so if you want to be competitive consider these units highly in your lists
Let's say you do field them in a LRC, probably because you desperately want the alpha and the CPs, so drop count is paramount. Do we really want three squads of scouts in a LR in an alpha list? IDK, but it doesn't seem super sexy. Also, scouts are cheap troops for CPs, but that benefit also disappears when you stuff them in a LRC (the battle field role of which is never to transport scouts, in any good list). You're wasting the scouts and (mostly) the transport capacity of the LRC, which costs too much to be efficient as a scout delivery system.
Sorry man, I don't see it. Maybe I've missed something though...
What is the role of the LR crusader ? Its not to transport models ? Enlighten me.
Models? Yes. Scouts? No. I don't really think it needs any more explanation than that.
Still new and experimenting with my BA list, but I have read this thread and I see no one runs sternguard vets, a unit I find very good for their points. Is there any special reasons for this?
I am wondering because I find them a wonderful unit to mount on a Rhino or Razorback, backed up with a lieutenant, move forward, disembark and fire a nice volley with their 30" boltguns at -2AP. They have a cheap strat for +1 to wound with their weapons and 2 AT, that with red thirst can pack a reasonable punch if charging against infantry. I have even tried backing them with a sanguinary priest, so they could wound almost everything at 3+ or 4+ in close combat. All for 90 points for a 5 man squad.
I also have tried them as an anti deepstriking unit or deployment zone defenders, due to their long range and the auspex strat (can´t remember well the name, the one that allows you to shoot at -1 to hit when a unit lands close).
Yes, there are more and suitable options in the army for other roles, but I think they are a very good option for a unit in a mixed role, or if you want some unexpected punch in the shooting phase.
I would appreciate any comments, as I find this unit as essential to my current lists, and maybe I am missing something.
Stormbolters double their rate or fire, which increases their damage output in practically every situation, and doesn’t need a stratagem to be particularly damaging on most targets.
I've got a growing blood angels collection, and I'd love some advice on the general direction to take it?
1) Mephiston in a pod? Is he worth it? Better off Starting on the table? What else do you put in the pod with him?
2) Anti-tank? How do you guy's open up rhinos to get to the juicy contents? Hellblasters?
3) Deathcompany. Why do I see everyone taking them with Chainswords only, wouldn't throwing a couple powerfists / powerswords be worth it in a larger squad? Maybe 1 Thunderhammer in a squad of 15?
4) I've got 3 Rapier Quad Launchers. 4D3 S5 Ap0 indirect shots or 4 S8 Ap-2 dam:3 shots. They seem like a good unit to provide backfield fire support. However, I've never seen them in a blood angel list, why? Are they overpriced (2 pts less than a naked captain)
5) I frequently run Scions. Does a 1-2 punch of shooty/assaulty deep strike work out, or will I get in my own way too much?
ETA: My questions are mainly to help guide me what I paint up as blood angels, and what I resell / paint as space wolves.
Mephiston with Wings of Sanguinius is a better option. Pods suck so bad this edition. Wings gives him the extra mobility he needs to get the job done. He can move 24" in a turn and Rerolls failed Charges. If he doesn't manage to get the charge off, it was because you were after something in your opponent's back corner. A Drop Pod just doesn't do anything good.
Yeah, don't bother with the Drop Pod. It is worthless. I start my Mephiston in a Razorback most of the time. Between the 3.9" deployment away from the vehicle (since he only has to deploy within 3", and not wholly within 3"), plus his 7" move and Wings of Sanguinius, as long as I don't play him like poop he gets to where he wants to be.
I generally put him in there with a 5 man Tac Squad to reduce my deployments and so if the vehicle blows up he is fairly well protected from just being instant killed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tag8833 wrote: I've got a growing blood angels collection, and I'd love some advice on the general direction to take it?
1) Mephiston in a pod? Is he worth it? Better off Starting on the table? What else do you put in the pod with him?
2) Anti-tank? How do you guy's open up rhinos to get to the juicy contents? Hellblasters?
3) Deathcompany. Why do I see everyone taking them with Chainswords only, wouldn't throwing a couple powerfists / powerswords be worth it in a larger squad? Maybe 1 Thunderhammer in a squad of 15?
4) I've got 3 Rapier Quad Launchers. 4D3 S5 Ap0 indirect shots or 4 S8 Ap-2 dam:3 shots. They seem like a good unit to provide backfield fire support. However, I've never seen them in a blood angel list, why? Are they overpriced (2 pts less than a naked captain)
5) I frequently run Scions. Does a 1-2 punch of shooty/assaulty deep strike work out, or will I get in my own way too much?
ETA: My questions are mainly to help guide me what I paint up as blood angels, and what I resell / paint as space wolves.
2. For anti-tank I generally take Devastators, working on finishing up my fourth 5 man squad with 3 heavy weapons and a Cherub to be baby-sat by a Company Ancient with the relic banner. Nothing better than getting to shoot heavy weapons in retaliation for targeting your Devastators. It makes going second slightly less painful. Been too many games where my Devs get deleted before ever firing a shot. A couple of 5 man Tac Squads with Combi-Melta/Inferno Pistol and a Meltagun in a Rhino is also an option for finishing off a vehicle. I have been trying to make shooty Dreadnoughts be worth their points, but they have been of limited use before being deleted.
3. I personally don't run more than 10 Death Company in a list, even with Leadership buffs from a Chaplain or other source you are risking losing quite a few to morale. Right now mine are all Bolter and Chainsword, and it has worked well. Although the Chainsword lacks any AP, sheer weight of attacks with the To Wound rolls boosted by The Red Thirst seems to work out well, especially is you get off Unleash Rage and spend the 3 CP for them to fight twice. That loadout puts out a decent amount of shooting before they charge as well, it works wonders against in melee anything Toughness 7 or less but against Toughness 8 it struggles really badly. I also like to keep my Death Company cheap since more often than not they are there to shred infantry, or end up engaging my opponents tanks or heavy firepower to neuter it's shooting (last game my Death Company followed an Angel's Wing equipped Librarian into charging 3 Leman Russes to stop them from shooting). I am going to try running a few Power Fists in the squad in the next week or so, but I have my Death Company supported by just a Librarian who is generally able to get Quickening or Wings of Sanguinius off. I rarely run them with a Chaplain because I got tired of him constantly failing his charges and being useless. Plus my Death Company are often charging 3D6 from Deep Strike, so a standard Jump Pack Chaplain often cannot keep up to buff them unless I string my unit back, losing attacks in the process.
4. I don't own any Rapiers, so cannot comment, they seem alright though. I do want to give them a try, but don't really want to buy the Forgeworld Index for a single model. Give them a try and let us know how it goes.
1: No pods, they are useless. We are BA, we dont really need them, we have JP. I'm also not so sure about mephiston. He is 145 pts. The libby dread is only 27 pts. more and much harder to kill.
2: Dreads with autocannons, devastators with lascannons, rocket launchers, relic leviathan dread with storm array cannon, DC.
3: Depending on the points (we usually play 1 or 1,5k at our FLG) i use them "naked" with boltguns and chainswords, or with 1-3 inferno pistols, 1-2 powerfists, 1 hammer. If i have power weapons i also include a chaplain/lemartes to reroll failed hits, because of the -1 to hit. Without chaplain/lemartes i run them with chainswords, because of no rerolls.
4: I used to play with whirlwinds, but they didnt do much, so no more artillery for me.
5: Why ? We have company vets with JP and meltas, plasmaguns, etc.
niv-mizzet wrote: Sadly, I heard and watched the stream to confirm. Mark made a big illegal move that had huge ramifications in round 5 of the swiss. He burned the 3d6 charge strat on captain hammer, which got him past a line of berserkers and onto a fire raptor, which he super-lucked out and blew up, crippling a ton of Jared's units that were all around the thing. Jared was ahead and looking like the favorite prior to that.
The issue is that captain hammer did not deep strike or wings of fire that turn, so he couldn't have used the 3d6 charge. So now the only pure BA list to make it to top 8 has an asterisk next to it, not to mention the incredible luck of dodging every eldar matchup all through the Swiss. (Which for anyone who didn't know, he lost to he first eldar he came across in top 8.)
The especially crappy part is that Jared directly asked him if he was allowed to use the stratagem anytime, and he said yes. This means that he likely illegally used the strata in some other games as well.
I'm sure misused stratagems were very prevalent throughout the tournament. I wonder how often it is intentional, especially among top tables.
I think the best way to gain details about an opponents' stratagem during a tournament game would be to ask them to read it verbatim or have them show the card if they one available.
niv-mizzet wrote: Sadly, I heard and watched the stream to confirm. Mark made a big illegal move that had huge ramifications in round 5 of the swiss. He burned the 3d6 charge strat on captain hammer, which got him past a line of berserkers and onto a fire raptor, which he super-lucked out and blew up, crippling a ton of Jared's units that were all around the thing. Jared was ahead and looking like the favorite prior to that.
The issue is that captain hammer did not deep strike or wings of fire that turn, so he couldn't have used the 3d6 charge. So now the only pure BA list to make it to top 8 has an asterisk next to it, not to mention the incredible luck of dodging every eldar matchup all through the Swiss. (Which for anyone who didn't know, he lost to he first eldar he came across in top 8.)
The especially crappy part is that Jared directly asked him if he was allowed to use the stratagem anytime, and he said yes. This means that he likely illegally used the strata in some other games as well.
I'm sure misused stratagems were very prevalent throughout the tournament. I wonder how often it is intentional, especially among top tables.
I think the best way to gain details about an opponents' stratagem during a tournament game would be to ask them to read it verbatim or have them show the card if they one available.
I have seen a time or two people that would make a false claim about their army rules hoping that the opponent would not insist on reading the rule out of the codex. Thankfully in my time of competitive events, that has been very rare.
Looking at the past few replies, I'm apparently doing something VERY wrong, as I have a DROP POD with Mephiston, a Company Ancient, and 8 Sternguard (2 with Grav Cannons and Grav Amps!!) in my newer lists.
It's as if I'm TRYING to give away my games.
Sarcasm aside, I've ran Mephiston and Sternguard in a Pod a few times with success...the only thing new is the Company Ancient and the Grav Cannons. Having Mephiston and good guns show up exactly where you want them to is worth points. Is 85 points too many? That's up to you and the rest of your list to decide...
Bremon wrote: I think the opinion of most is that yes, 85 pts is too many.
It had a lower toughness, fewer wounds, and is immobile. Yet somehow it costs most than a Rhino. In an army loaded to the brim with units that can deep strike (you can run two Squads of 4x Gravgun + Combi-Grav Company Veterans for cheaper than the Sternguard Squad and Drop Pod). So yeah. Drop Pods don't necessarily suck, they just suck relative to other options.
niv-mizzet wrote: Sadly, I heard and watched the stream to confirm. Mark made a big illegal move that had huge ramifications in round 5 of the swiss. He burned the 3d6 charge strat on captain hammer, which got him past a line of berserkers and onto a fire raptor, which he super-lucked out and blew up, crippling a ton of Jared's units that were all around the thing. Jared was ahead and looking like the favorite prior to that.
The issue is that captain hammer did not deep strike or wings of fire that turn, so he couldn't have used the 3d6 charge. So now the only pure BA list to make it to top 8 has an asterisk next to it, not to mention the incredible luck of dodging every eldar matchup all through the Swiss. (Which for anyone who didn't know, he lost to he first eldar he came across in top 8.)
The especially crappy part is that Jared directly asked him if he was allowed to use the stratagem anytime, and he said yes. This means that he likely illegally used the strata in some other games as well.
I'm sure misused stratagems were very prevalent throughout the tournament. I wonder how often it is intentional, especially among top tables.
I think the best way to gain details about an opponents' stratagem during a tournament game would be to ask them to read it verbatim or have them show the card if they one available.
I have seen a time or two people that would make a false claim about their army rules hoping that the opponent would not insist on reading the rule out of the codex. Thankfully in my time of competitive events, that has been very rare.
Except intention is often difficult to prove.
I have been running test games of various BA/AM lists for an ITC tournament and especially when I started I was making a lot of errors. This was without trying to play quickly which with a high model count army is usually a requirement at a tournament.
Its very easy to make a mistake or think something works one way only to find it doesn't when its checked.
I know I lost a game last year due to an opponent incorrectly piling in in the direction he wanted not towards the nearest model - was this a mistake or intentional how would you prove.
Martel732 wrote: You are paying for immunity to first strike. That's it. I suspect the price will keep coming down as they continue to never be used.
Exactly. How much would you add to the cost of a Rhino for the ability for its passengers to never be first struck stranded and also have the ability to be wherever you want / need them to be (enemy screens notwithstanding) on turns 1, 2, or 3?
The price isn't as crazy as it sounds...it's just SO much more than they used to be that we're all agast.
Martel732 wrote: You are paying for immunity to first strike. That's it. I suspect the price will keep coming down as they continue to never be used.
Exactly. How much would you add to the cost of a Rhino for the ability for its passengers to never be first struck stranded and also have the ability to be wherever you want / need them to be (enemy screens notwithstanding) on turns 1, 2, or 3?
The price isn't as crazy as it sounds...it's just SO much more than they used to be that we're all agast.
If the list didn't have a other efficient units that DS the 'cost' would seem very different. But when VVs for example are good, and can deepstrike without the 85 point premium, the Pod loses a lot of it's luster. C'est la vie.
Martel732 wrote: You are paying for immunity to first strike. That's it. I suspect the price will keep coming down as they continue to never be used.
JP can do the same, for much, much less points. DC gets them for 3 pts. per model. And it gives them 12" move, the ability to shoot after falling back and the FLY keyword, ignore terrain and models. Drop pods are almost useless for BA, they shouldnt cost more than 30.
Martel732 wrote: You are paying for immunity to first strike. That's it. I suspect the price will keep coming down as they continue to never be used.
Exactly. How much would you add to the cost of a Rhino for the ability for its passengers to never be first struck stranded and also have the ability to be wherever you want / need them to be (enemy screens notwithstanding) on turns 1, 2, or 3?
The price isn't as crazy as it sounds...it's just SO much more than they used to be that we're all agast.
The Rhino is priced fine. Drop Pods are only worth 50 pts.
“Enemy screens notwithstanding” is the caveat that needs to have an asterisk next to it that says *this is why they aren’t worth the cost”. I pay 2 points per model for most of my squads to put them 9.01” away from where I want them. I don’t feel like paying much more than that just to drop infantry and a stormbolter.
The reasons given for not using Drop Pods are overall confusing to me. It's not as if I said "I want to use a Drop Pod for my assault marines" or "I just can't figure out how to get my Vanguard Veterans where I want them."
I understand everything everyone has said.
What I said I was doing with the Drop Pod was using it to deploy Mephiston and some Sternguard, neither of which can deep strike. In all reality, the only reason I've decided to use the Drop Pod at all was because I wanted to deep strike Mephiston, but it would be a waste to JUST take him, so I asked myself "what other unit do I like that could use some movement shinanigans" and lo' and behold Sternguard, which I like and have painted, were available.
It STILL didn't feel like an overwhelming reason to run Mephiston in the Drop Pod, but I also liked the idea of having a Company Ancient out in the scrum, throwing out his buff (along with the relic banner buff) to the Sternguard and the Inceptors (and other potential deep strikers) I will also be dropping into the area. Suddenly, I liked the idea of the firebase that would be appearing wherever I'd like, and the 85pt cost was worth it.
Now, you can tell me there are better things to do with all of those points, and you could even be correct, but it's all subjective, and we're suddenly talking about more than just the efficiency of a Rhino vs a Drop Pod. We're talking about tactics, personal preference, etc...
Drop pods should stay the same price, be required to drop outside of 9" from the closest enemy unit as normal, and allow you to immediately deploy the dropped units within 3" of the drop pod with no minimum distance from the enemy. Then it'd be worth the points.
Having used the sternguard as you intend (just with a lieutenant, instead of Mephisto) I see your point. For me, the larger the game, the better option a drop pod is.
You land the pod, shoot a nice volley (stormbolters or spec bolters), mop up the screening units and then charge.
The key for me, is if you want to deepstrike or not with the sternguard to tag along Mephisto or not. If Mephisto going solo for the close quarters is no concern for you, then I see the drop pod as a viable option. If you want to launch all of them, I think is better to embark them in a Rhino or Razorback. You loose the ability to deploy anywhere, but you have the certainty that all will go together, and with 12" mov, plus 3 from disembarking and 6 more in T2, you can be almost anywhere you want.
Sure, the enemy can destroy the transport, and stuck you midfield, but that´s a chance you have to take.
Anyway, that kind of presence in their deployment area or rear field can unnerve some players, and that is worth a try at least.
Voidwraith wrote: The reasons given for not using Drop Pods are overall confusing to me. It's not as if I said "I want to use a Drop Pod for my assault marines" or "I just can't figure out how to get my Vanguard Veterans where I want them."
I understand everything everyone has said.
What I said I was doing with the Drop Pod was using it to deploy Mephiston and some Sternguard, neither of which can deep strike. In all reality, the only reason I've decided to use the Drop Pod at all was because I wanted to deep strike Mephiston, but it would be a waste to JUST take him, so I asked myself "what other unit do I like that could use some movement shinanigans" and lo' and behold Sternguard, which I like and have painted, were available.
It STILL didn't feel like an overwhelming reason to run Mephiston in the Drop Pod, but I also liked the idea of having a Company Ancient out in the scrum, throwing out his buff (along with the relic banner buff) to the Sternguard and the Inceptors (and other potential deep strikers) I will also be dropping into the area. Suddenly, I liked the idea of the firebase that would be appearing wherever I'd like, and the 85pt cost was worth it.
Now, you can tell me there are better things to do with all of those points, and you could even be correct, but it's all subjective, and we're suddenly talking about more than just the efficiency of a Rhino vs a Drop Pod. We're talking about tactics, personal preference, etc...
So it would need 5+ units to make it efficient (but it cant hold that many) (75pts worth of deepstrikeing)
Its guns are worth 2pts-5pts of its value so not much value from shooting
Now I get you can argue it has Wounds but largely your opponent will ignore them as a lone stormbolter or deathwind launcher just isnt a priority target. Unless they are in the way but 85pts per speed bump is a high price and you would need multiple to stop them just walking past.
So the only actual value comes from delivering something that couldn't deepstrike otherwise.
However if that could effectively be delivered through psychic powers or a transport that can actually shoot for a similar price or just hold up in a bunker and have the range to hit something then its probably better not to.
So mephiston plus sternguard your paying 85pts for 18 pts worth of deepstrike
Well, you could place them in objektives. So the enemy has to deal with it.
And In guess(?) The doors still count as modell so If you place Mephiston right between the frontdoors, he still can't be shot at?
I had really nice games with a Tactical (5, Plasma, Combi-Plasma), Mephiston, and four Veterans with Plasma in a pod. Even if it isn't the best use, it's a hell of fun.
Covenant wrote: Well, you could place them in objektives. So the enemy has to deal with it.
And In guess(?) The doors still count as modell so If you place Mephiston right between the frontdoors, he still can't be shot at?
I had really nice games with a Tactical (5, Plasma, Combi-Plasma), Mephiston, and four Veterans with Plasma in a pod. Even if it isn't the best use, it's a hell of fun.
You could but then a 55pt scout squad would do the same job better being troops and having more models and cheaper. In fact if the two options contest each other the scout squad can stay in combat with drop pod indefinitely holding the objective while remaining protected so the drop pod doesnt do well at all
Works under the beta rule but not really because the first thing Mephiston does is charge away from the pod and the character rule doesnt apply to overwatch.
Thats the distinction between use and have fun with and use efficiently. Most models you can use and have fun with only some models are efficient
And In guess(?) The doors still count as modell so If you place Mephiston right between the frontdoors, he still can't be shot at?
Thats a neat idea. The pod would be closer to the enemy, so they couldnt shoot him, or any other character. Also a pod can get you linebreaker.
A pod can greatly reduce your deployment count if you play with lots of characters, 3 libbys and a captain for example, and 5 company vets for protection. The price of the JPs for them exceeds the cost of the pod. You could add a techmarine to repair the pod, which serves as character protection.
A techmarine just to repair a pod really? Thats just throwing good pts after bad. Also 3 libarians won't be effective because you cant repeat cast the buff spells. If you're wanting to multi character pod Mephiston /tycho the lost make better choices as both at least benefit.
You can cast a combination of blood boil, quickening, wings of sanguinius, shield of sanguinius, and 3 smites. I guess lance if there is a viable target somehow. You also get 4 denies with hoods.
Martel732 wrote: You can cast a combination of blood boil, quickening, wings of sanguinius, shield of sanguinius, and 3 smites. I guess lance if there is a viable target somehow. You also get 4 denies with hoods.
I've been wanting to run 3 librarians (one with the staff relic) just to see how well the "other" powers and the psychic strat could be leveraged, but doubt I'll ever really do it. Blood Boil seems to be a really good overlooked power, and I'm sure Blood Lance COULD have a moment...maybe...
U02dah4 wrote: A techmarine just to repair a pod really? Thats just throwing good pts after bad. Also 3 libarians won't be effective because you cant repeat cast the buff spells. If you're wanting to multi character pod Mephiston /tycho the lost make better choices as both at least benefit.
Of course not to just repair the pod. The techmarine has a 2+ armor sv and his BS is 2+. He is only 62 pts. I think he is pretty much underrated.
Martel732 wrote: You can cast a combination of blood boil, quickening, wings of sanguinius, shield of sanguinius, and 3 smites. I guess lance if there is a viable target somehow. You also get 4 denies with hoods.
I've been wanting to run 3 librarians (one with the staff relic) just to see how well the "other" powers and the psychic strat could be leveraged, but doubt I'll ever really do it. Blood Boil seems to be a really good overlooked power, and I'm sure Blood Lance COULD have a moment...maybe...
It's mortal wounds that don't have to hit the closest unit. Can't hurt, might help. Blood boil is brutal vs T3 armies.
Voidwraith wrote: I've been wanting to run 3 librarians (one with the staff relic) just to see how well the "other" powers and the psychic strat could be leveraged, but doubt I'll ever really do it. Blood Boil seems to be a really good overlooked power, and I'm sure Blood Lance COULD have a moment...maybe...
I also want to run 3 libbys. But are they really worth ~300 pts. ? You can only cast every psychic power once. The psychic strat doesnt look strong. Its only one psyker and he can cast one additional power with +2. I dont think its worth 1 CP. Its not like he could smite twice, that would be powerful.
Voidwraith wrote: I've been wanting to run 3 librarians (one with the staff relic) just to see how well the "other" powers and the psychic strat could be leveraged, but doubt I'll ever really do it. Blood Boil seems to be a really good overlooked power, and I'm sure Blood Lance COULD have a moment...maybe...
I also want to run 3 libbys. But are they really worth ~300 pts. ? You can only cast every psychic power once. The psychic strat doesnt look strong. Its only one psyker and he can cast one additional power with +2. I dont think its worth 1 CP. Its not like he could smite twice, that would be powerful.
The psychic strat is only appealing to make sure Quickening goes off, or to give better odds for a super smite. Something that's obviously not going to be used on every game turn, but that turn where the +2 to the psychic roll would REALLY be nice, I can see spending the command point...
Voidwraith wrote: I've been wanting to run 3 librarians (one with the staff relic) just to see how well the "other" powers and the psychic strat could be leveraged, but doubt I'll ever really do it. Blood Boil seems to be a really good overlooked power, and I'm sure Blood Lance COULD have a moment...maybe...
I also want to run 3 libbys. But are they really worth ~300 pts. ? You can only cast every psychic power once. The psychic strat doesnt look strong. Its only one psyker and he can cast one additional power with +2. I dont think its worth 1 CP. Its not like he could smite twice, that would be powerful.
Eh, I think the stratagem is quite legit, if like every stratagem, you build for it.
Take using Empyric Channelling on Mephiston for example. In support you have two basic Librarians each casting Smite and one each of Unleash Rage and Shield of Sanguinius. That's reasonable value for their points spend.
You then have a Mephiston with knowledge of 3 spells + Smite; Wings, Quickening, Blood Boil and now the means to cast 3. You pop wings and can either cast a +2 Quickening which is fantastic extra reliability for a WC7 spell that you don't want denied, allowing you to charge very deep, or you can pop a wings move and then throw out both blood boil and smite for max mortal wounds, with a +2 cast boosting up the mortal wound potential of either. Blood Boil has no target limitations.
The only problem I see with dropping the pod near an objective, is once your Sternguard are dead, which isn't that hard for most armies... You have an immobile drop pod near an objective.
A unit of Cultists can charge the drop pod, and will be eternally safe from shooting on the objective since the drop pod cannot fall back.
I honestly feel like the better play would be to bait an enemy forwards by placing cheap Scout squads on objectives, since they HAVE to be taken care of. Thst leaves the enemy open to retaliation from a Sternguard squad who hopped out of a Rhino, or Mephiston who hopped out of a Razorback.
Three Librarians, a Techmarine and Sternguard in a single drop pod? Ugh... Just why, dropping in a ton of points that is all pretty easy to kill seems so wasteful.
You drop in more. Drop in SG, and cast unleash rage on them and then descent of angels with them. Use a libby with the relic pack + wings to eat overwatch. Make him the warlord for lulz.
Key info
-cap is literally always captain hammer loadout, often with wing relic. Some lists didn't mark their relics or warlord.
-meph = Mephiston, lem = Lemartes, sang = Sanguinor, sga = sanguinary ancient, ldred = Libby dreadnought, corb = Corbulo, asty = Astorath, prst = sanguinary priest, chap = chaplain, DC = death company, sg = sanguinary guard, VV = vanguard vets, devs = devastators, lt = lieutenant,
wl = warlord.
The number in front is their placing. Armies with a parentheses around this number indicate a large presence of non-BA elements in the list (in excess of 1/4 of the list.) When this is the case I listed the ally. I generally didn't bother listing units that were only in as a troop tax and/or screening. Most lists had 3x scouts or maybe a tac squad mixed in.
Most popular units by list count (out of 21 lists, ignoring troops):
-DC 17
-captain hammer 14
-Lemartes 13
-Sanguinary guard 11
-Mephiston 7
-sanguinary ancient 7
-Sanguinor 6
Holy carp that captain gets around. I was amused at the fact that I didn't have to note the captain load-outs because literally everyone who ran one ran him as captain hammer.
Thinking of custodes vanguard ally deep striking a 5 up banner invuln by our death company could be nice without having ing to work out shield of sanguinius on them
Awesome post, thanks for digging through all of that data.
Hmm, so lib dread is a bad choice capt smashhammer (does he have a name yet?) seems a req.
I'm looking into running some scouts, DCs and the capt and prst as a bat in a soup list (+ custodes and either IG or Celestine + assassins). Going to have to play around with it to see what works, I really wish I could use dreads but I haven't seen a list do well with them yet...
Awesome post, thanks for digging through all of that data.
Hmm, so lib dread is a bad choice capt smashhammer (does he have a name yet?) seems a req.
I'm looking into running some scouts, DCs and the capt and prst as a bat in a soup list (+ custodes and either IG or Celestine + assassins). Going to have to play around with it to see what works, I really wish I could use dreads but I haven't seen a list do well with them yet...
Yeah, I haven't been able to make any Dreads work for me outside of VERY casual games where both of us are taking stuff just because it looks cool. Even than I would have been far better off just not taking them
I understand that Captain loadout is really good, I just don't see myself running it.
A ton of the fb BA community has taken to calling him Slamguinius, but I will always refer to him as captain hammer in reference to Nathan Fillian's character from Dr. Horrible, which is a wildly entertaining musical movie.
Putting together some Blood Angels jump pack infantry tooled for close combat. I'm starting with a small group to use with other armies, but it may end up forming the core of a full fledged army one day. You know how it goes. My question to the thread:
Is there any reason not to take Vanguard Veterans instead of the basic JP assault squad? It's only a few points more but they seem much better. Having said that, is there any reason no to take Death Company over Vanguard Veterans, since that's only a few points more and you get black rage? I can see fluff reasons for taking other options, but looking at efficiency and fit for purpose it seems Death Company is the way to go... or am I missing something?
Razerous wrote: How many people brought (or tend to bring) the relic hammer over the wings or no relic at all.
2+ to hit & re-roll 1's on a Thunderhamner seems crazy good
Nope. Give Captain Smashy McSmashFace the relic JP every time.
Why?
Because he is a CC powerhouse but due to the way he built, he will often be running solo. That means he needs to make his charges as reliable as possible. The relic JP lets him reroll failed charges. Combined with DoA, that gives him a 93% (ish) chance to pull off a 9" charge out of Deep Strike. Negating overwatch can also be a big deal, especially if you want to charge something nasty like Wraithguard with D-Scythes.
Even if you run him alongside other units, charging him in first will then protect his men from overwatch too. Giving him Artisan of War for a 4D hammer works out as pretty much the same number of wounds statistically (although skewed slightly in favour of larger targets).
A ton of the fb BA community has taken to calling him Slamguinius, but I will always refer to him as captain hammer in reference to Nathan Fillian's character from Dr. Horrible, which is a wildly entertaining musical movie.
Slamguinius is pure gold haha. Absolutely entertaining.
I have begun contemplating the load outs for a few of my 5 man Tactical Squads. I currently have a few squads with Inferno Pistol & Power Axe on the Sergeant, and a Meltagun in the squad. There is generally 2 of the 5 man squads deployed in a Rhino, but I have been pretty disappointed with the sergeant in those squads. The Inferno Pistol seems like it is eternally half an inch out of range, and the sergeants rarely do any real damage in close combat. Beginning to feel that going Combi-Melta & Chainsword on the sergeant is the better option for the extra range on his gun, and extra attacks in close combat since more often than not they end up charging chaff infantry or just charge in to try and tie something up (like a vehicle). It requires a minor change in my casual 2k list from this:
Death Company [18 PL, 200pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
+ Troops +
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 93pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Special weapon): Plasma gun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 96pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Special weapon): Meltagun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Inferno pistol, Power axe
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 96pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Special weapon): Meltagun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Inferno pistol, Power axe
+ Heavy Support +
Devastator Squad [8 PL, 165pts] . Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun
Death Company [18 PL, 212pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power fist
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
+ Troops +
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 93pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Special weapon): Plasma gun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 101pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Special weapon): Meltagun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-melta
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 101pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Special weapon): Meltagun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-melta
+ Heavy Support +
Devastator Squad [8 PL, 145pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun
+ Dedicated Transport +
Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: 2x Storm bolter
Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: 2x Storm bolter
++ Total: [111 PL, 1999pts] ++
...so very, very minimal changes from one list to the other, but I feel like it will benefit my casual list far more than the Inferno Pistol & Axe combo on the sergeant. Are you guys putting any Inferno Pistols in your Tactical Squads? If so, how are they working for you?
Just wanted to bring one other thing up with drop pods. Don't the pods protect the occupants from things like eldar forwarn with dark reapers since the pod is what's getting shot at and not the occupants? That's how my local game group has been running it, drop pods have become a little more useful when you take one and your opponent is eldar here.
A ton of the fb BA community has taken to calling him Slamguinius, but I will always refer to him as captain hammer in reference to Nathan Fillian's character from Dr. Horrible, which is a wildly entertaining musical movie.
Azuza001 wrote: Just wanted to bring one other thing up with drop pods. Don't the pods protect the occupants from things like eldar forwarn with dark reapers since the pod is what's getting shot at and not the occupants? That's how my local game group has been running it, drop pods have become a little more useful when you take one and your opponent is eldar here.
I would assume that is how it works, yeah. That wasn't something I thought about, but still doesn't seem enough to swing me in favor of taking them.
A ton of the fb BA community has taken to calling him Slamguinius, but I will always refer to him as captain hammer in reference to Nathan Fillian's character from Dr. Horrible, which is a wildly entertaining musical movie.
what is the preferred Slamguinius build?
Captain with Jump Pack, (Angel's Wing Relic) and Iron Halo, armed with a Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield, along with Grenades (Frag & Krak). Run him with the Artisan of War WL Trait so his hammer does 4 wounds.damage per successful attack that makes it though your opponent's armor.
I personally plan on running mine without the Storm Shield, since you'e paying for an Iron Halo on him anyway for the 4++ save, and give him a Bolt Pistol for budget reasons, or an Infeno Pistol to help add more damage potential to him whether he's in melee or not.
Also, "Slamguinius" is both glorious and hilarious at the same time. I will be using this from now on.
Captn Slamguinius on a bike with SS, death visions of sanguinius, gift of foresight, and hammer of baal. Thats T5, W6, 3++, 5+++ rerolling 1s. He can still use his BS 2+ with the bikes twin boltguns. Teams up with lemartes because he is death company and can reroll failed charge and failed hit rolls.
Slamguinius doesn’t need the storm shield IMO. Waste of points.
I played a game last night. I won, but it was a hollow victory. Ended at the end of turn 5, VP score 5-2 for me. I finished the game with one model left; my sanguinary Ancient warlord with relic banner. My regular Death Guard opponent and I played the recon mission from Chapter Approved. My starting force on the table was 8 Sang Guard, the Ancient, and JP Librarian.
I got first turn, which was awful. Only targets were poxwalker bubble wrap around a plaguecaster and crawler. My Vanguard Vets showed up, along with Libby dread and two Intercessor squads. I obliterated his poxwalkers, consolidated into the crawler and plaguecaster, didn’t spend the 3 CP to fight again and kill the caster (I doubt I’ll ever make that mistake again; their buffs and mortal wound generation are too punishing to allow to live). His first turn a unit of 20 CC plague marines showed up (as my eyes bug out of my head) with the grenade character and daemon prince. He burns 3 command points and uses a ridiculous grenade salvo to wipe my VV and reduce my 8 SG to 2 (one with a wound on it). He charges the SG, and kills the last two.
My second turn my captain and third Intercessor Squad show up. I place the captain like a fool to charge the DP instead of crawler; my librarian dread buffs the hell out of itself. Captain has jump pack relic; I charge him against a target with no ranged weapon; he bounces off the DP and gets eviscerated. My Libby dread puts 8 wounds on the plagueburst crawler after eating an entropy cannon shot in overwatch that did 6 damage. I use Wings of Fire to blast my Ancient to safety away from the 18 plagur marines (he killed 2 when they consolidated into him in my opponents first turn).
His second turn involves two smites that finish the last wound on my captain and last 2 on the dread. The rest of the game involves him slowly walking his army across the table to objectives I hold. My ancient and JP librarian form a small core with 3 int squads. The relic banner helped them live for quite a long time.
DG are so slow that he accomplished one objective in 5 turns, and got linebreaker in the end. His turn 5 killed the last of my Intercessors after my SGA fled and hid behind a wall to avoid a tabling.
Hollow victory indeed. Mission type and deployment (corner quadrant type) worked against me, but I mostly worked against myself. Had I played one of my elite units more conservatively they would have been out of grenade range. Had I charged the tank with my captain the dread wouldn’t have been hurt until the tank blew up (which it likely would have after), then Libby when captwin could worry about DP after, and the tank wouldn’t have been able to take pot shots at my units for 4 turns. Plenty of unforced errors, but important lessons learned. Why do I always charge Daemon Princes to try and kill them in glorious CC? It almost never works in my favour lol. Also, I hate plague burst crawlers. T8 3+ 5++ 5+++ 12W is just...something else.
The game could have gone differently though; had his marine squad started on the board the SG would have assuredly wiped them in the first turn taking out about 450 of 1250 points (instead their grenade antics removed about 450 of points from me lol). Such is life! Next game may be different.
Plus, after turn 5 I can only assume a stormraven came and picked up the SGA so the chapter banner didn’t fall into enemy hands.
Spado wrote: Running the slamguinius captain without the ss is pure madness.
Sorry. No, it isn't. The Captain is likely going to die gloriously after he rolls over whatever he charges, assuming he makes his charge. (Which is likely, but not guaranteed)
You've already got a 4++ save. I'm not going to spend more points onto something that's going to eat a MASSIVE amount of firepower from the enemy army after he decimates a target I need to die. If I feel like it, I'll throw an inferno pistol on him to help make him more killy in the (unlikely) event he survives the turn he lands.
Especially since people are running him with Visions for maximum smashitude. The 17% drop off in saves worth the decrease in points and possibility to take a weapon in the other hand.
Red_Thirst, do you run your Captain with two bolt pistols? Because he already comes with one (Captains have two slots and a bolt pistol). Not sure what good options there are for that other arm though. Combi-Melta? Combi-Plasma?
Especially since people are running him with Visions for maximum smashitude. The 17% drop off in saves worth the decrease in points and possibility to take a weapon in the other hand.
Red_Thirst, do you run your Captain with two bolt pistols? Because he already comes with one (Captains have two slots and a bolt pistol). Not sure what good options there are for that other arm though. Combi-Melta? Combi-Plasma?
I honestly leave it empty, and you can't run 2 bolt pistols from what Battlescribe is telling me also. I've taken to opting for a bolt pistol in every build (Because it's free) and have considered running a plasma pistol instead for the added shot at a wound with -3 AP, or, if I'm feeling like spending the points, give him an inferno pistol. That's only if I've got a few points a the end of the list building process. If I'm 9 to 10 points below my point limit, he gets the Inferno pistol. There's only a 2 point difference between plasma and inferno, and I do prefer the inferno pistol over the plasma if I'm honest. Higher strength and d6 damage make up for the shorter range.
I'm actually building and painting my Slamguinius model now. I've been using my 7th edition captain miniature, which has a Relic Blade, Hand Flamer and Jump Pack. He's been putting in great work in 8th edition with the Relic Blade and Artisan of War warlord trait. I'm looking forward to seeing how the Slamguinius build works on him soon.
Spado wrote: Running the slamguinius captain without the ss is pure madness.
Sorry. No, it isn't. The Captain is likely going to die gloriously after he rolls over whatever he charges, assuming he makes his charge. (Which is likely, but not guaranteed)
You've already got a 4++ save. I'm not going to spend more points onto something that's going to eat a MASSIVE amount of firepower from the enemy army after he decimates a target I need to die. If I feel like it, I'll throw an inferno pistol on him to help make him more killy in the (unlikely) event he survives the turn he lands.
I am inclined to agree. He is still only T4 with a 3+ save and can be gunned down with small arms fire without too much effort.
Smalguinius' job is to act as a spoiler by taking out a high value target (possibly going down in a blaze of glory in the process). The advantage is that he can reliably hit stuff from Reserve and reliably delete almost any single target (he has a decent chance of one-shotting Mortarion if you stack enough buffs on him).
I honestly leave it empty, and you can't run 2 bolt pistols from what Battlescribe is telling me also.
Battlescribe is wrong. I like battlescribe a lot, but it has its bugs, dont trust it, always check with your codex. The captain can replace his master crafted boltgun with an item from the pistols list.
I honestly leave it empty, and you can't run 2 bolt pistols from what Battlescribe is telling me also.
Battlescribe is wrong. I like battlescribe a lot, but it has its bugs, dont trust it, always check with your codex. The captain can replace his master crafted boltgun with an item from the pistols list.
Technically, one can't run a Captain without at least one bolt pistol. Two bolt pistols is perfectly legal.
That's fair. I just opt to keep him melee focused and only drop the points for a plasma or inferno pistol if, at the end of the list, I'm 7 to 10 points below my point threshold. Also, he can use it whether he's in melee or not, which is why I like it over options like a Master Crafted boltgun, combi-weapon, or storm bolter.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Technically, one can't run a Captain without at least one bolt pistol. Two bolt pistols is perfectly legal.
Question is why would you run a captain with two bolt pistols ? Company veterans can run with two plasma or two inferno pistols, you can choose freely from the pistols list. But a captain must have at least one bolt pistol, its ridiculous. He should be able to choose whatever he wants.
Spado wrote: Running the slamguinius captain without the ss is pure madness.
Sorry. No, it isn't. The Captain is likely going to die gloriously after he rolls over whatever he charges, assuming he makes his charge. (Which is likely, but not guaranteed)
You've already got a 4++ save. I'm not going to spend more points onto something that's going to eat a MASSIVE amount of firepower from the enemy army after he decimates a target I need to die. If I feel like it, I'll throw an inferno pistol on him to help make him more killy in the (unlikely) event he survives the turn he lands.
I am inclined to agree. He is still only T4 with a 3+ save and can be gunned down with small arms fire without too much effort.
Smalguinius' job is to act as a spoiler by taking out a high value target (possibly going down in a blaze of glory in the process). The advantage is that he can reliably hit stuff from Reserve and reliably delete almost any single target (he has a decent chance of one-shotting Mortarion if you stack enough buffs on him).
What buffs are those? Thunder hammer, artisan of war (meaning you give your opponent “slay the warlord” with a bow on top), red rampage, death visions, unleash rage average what, 7 wounds on an 18 wound model? Burning a CP for a reroll and 2-3 for Honour the Chapter or Only in Death won’t get you there on average. Of course there’s a chance, but it’s fairly far from a good chance. And will cost you 4-6 command points, and a psychic power. Am I missing something? I hope I am; I play against DG weekly. The relic hammer averages even less damage if my math is right. Warlord Lib dread has a better chance of killing him, and still won’t do it on average.
Spado wrote: Running the slamguinius captain without the ss is pure madness.
Sorry. No, it isn't. The Captain is likely going to die gloriously after he rolls over whatever he charges, assuming he makes his charge. (Which is likely, but not guaranteed)
You've already got a 4++ save. I'm not going to spend more points onto something that's going to eat a MASSIVE amount of firepower from the enemy army after he decimates a target I need to die. If I feel like it, I'll throw an inferno pistol on him to help make him more killy in the (unlikely) event he survives the turn he lands.
I am inclined to agree. He is still only T4 with a 3+ save and can be gunned down with small arms fire without too much effort.
Smalguinius' job is to act as a spoiler by taking out a high value target (possibly going down in a blaze of glory in the process). The advantage is that he can reliably hit stuff from Reserve and reliably delete almost any single target (he has a decent chance of one-shotting Mortarion if you stack enough buffs on him).
What buffs are those? Thunder hammer, artisan of war (meaning you give your opponent “slay the warlord” with a bow on top), red rampage, death visions, unleash rage average what, 7 wounds on an 18 wound model? Burning a CP for a reroll and 2-3 for Honour the Chapter or Only in Death won’t get you there on average. Of course there’s a chance, but it’s fairly far from a good chance. And will cost you 4-6 command points, and a psychic power. Am I missing something? I hope I am; I play against DG weekly. The relic hammer averages even less damage if my math is right. Warlord Lib dread has a better chance of killing him, and still won’t do it on average.
He starts with 4 attacks. Add 1 for Death Visions of Sanguinus: 5 attacks Red Rampage for D3 attacks (2 attacks average, let's say): 7 attacks. (Minimum 6, Maximum 8) If you want to throw Unleash Rage on him from a nearby source you have (Situational, but viable) that gives another attack: 8 attacks (Minimum 7, Maximum 9)
Now, he swings let's say 7 (or 8) times. You're likely to roll a couple of 1's but re-rolling 1's thanks to Rites of Battle means you're going to hit with all attacks the vast majority of the time. For the purposes of this, let's say all 7 (or 8) attacks hit.
You then roll to wound with them. Against anything below toughness 8, you're going to wound it on 2's. Toughness 8? You'll wound it on 3's. I've not seen much outside of super heavies that have a higher toughness than 8.
Now, roll to wound, and maybe burn a re-roll for 1 CP if you want to on the inevitable 1 (or 2 for T:8). You should have 6 or 7 (maybe even 8) wounds on target ideally, at 4 damage a wound. That's twenty-eight to thirty-two damage on a target. With 4++ that's an average of three or four saves made, resulting in 12 to 16 damage worth of wounds on average. Against something like a Knight or other super-heavy, you just picked it up in one-fell-swoop. Land Raider? Also dead. Greater Daemon? Yea, smashed. Granted, against a harder target like Mortarion, the numbers drop off, and you'll likely only put 8 to 12 wounds on target (before disgustingly resilient kicks in) if you're lucky. Still, doing 10+ wounds to Mortarion in a single round is something to sit up and take note of. Oh yea, if they swing back on your captain and kill him, use Only in Death Does Duty End and attack again. If you didn't kill what you attacked the first time, you certainly should with the second round of attacks. It's cheaper than Honor of the Chapter thankfully too as far as CP cost is concerned, and if he's still alive at the end of the combat, then just burn Honor of the Chapter for 3 CP.
The great thing about both Only in Death Does Duty End and Honor of the Chapter is that they take your captain's attack profile in that turn from earlier in the combat. So whatever you rolled on Red Rampage will still apply to the second round of attacks, and if you charged in with Death Visions of Sanguinius, that bonus attack is also still present (Since you did charge in the preceding charge phase). So, D3 rolls depending, you have that same 6 to 8 attacks again (or more if you were able to throw Unleash Rage on him as well, which will still be in effect also.).
Pound for pound, very little in the game can match the raw damage output of Captain Slamguinius, who can put upwards of Fifty damage on a target, with a maximum possible of SIXTY-FOUR damage(!!!) without a psychcic buff present, using 5 to 7 CP, which is a healthy CP expenditure for sure. (One CP for DVoS, One CP for Red Rampage, Two CP for DoA, Two CP for OiDDDE if the captain is killed, or Three CP for HotC, if needed.)
Does anyone think throwing Gabe Seth in to babysit some devastators would be worth it? Him and the lieutenant would provide a little counter assault. Looks like we can eek out a small fire base and still have the points to include the vanguard element with Captain Smash face. I have Veterans and sanguinary guard in there now but does anyone think spending the points on Death Company may be better for this list? (DC might also be fluffier for a partial Flesh Tearers Force)
LOL nice image Red Thirst. I would say you’re basically guaranteed one miss with Slamguinius because with a standard thunder hammer hit rolls of 2 are dead, and you really ought to have the relic jump pack on him rather than borrowing Karlaen’s hammer (plus if you want to give away slay the warlord our insane DC captain really ought to be an artisan). So realistically, captain smash isn’t going to be lucky to crack a foetid bloatdrone, let alone Morty or a Crawler, without using 4+CP. Against more standard targets, absolutely; he’s a wrecking machine, but to tell those reading the thread he has a good chance of killing Mortarion...well that’s foolish. That requires careful positioning, likely using Descent of Angels, so you’re probably looking at 7-8 CP and odds are higher that Morty doesn’t die. Will he be hurt? Absolutely. Let’s not pretend we have a bargain basement primarch in our list though. As often as Slamguinius kills Mortarion he will just as often do what he did in my last game; inflict 0 damage on a Daemon Prince and have his body turned to ribbons from head to toe lol.
No buffs? You just swung on him with the hammer and his base 4 (or 5 with DVoS) attacks? Did you whiff on 3 or 4 of them?
Daemon Princes have a 5++ invuln save, or no better than a 4++ if my memory serves. Nurgle DP's get the Disgustingly Resilient as well, so that's an added thing.
Barring you just whiffed like crazy, you should have been able to put at LEAST 8 to 12 damage on target before saves, maybe more. Any hits you get will be wounding on 2's. Now if he just rolled crazy good invulnerable saves then fair play. If that's what went down, it sucks that happened. That said you can always bring the OiDDDE stratagem into play had he swung back and killed your captain, getting a second full round of swings is always a good way to literally go down swinging.
I never said he was a bargain basement primarch. I am saying he will absolutely OBLITERATE whatever he charges* if you burn some strategic CP into him. (*Short of something like Mortarion or Magnus, etc)
Rolling it out, he killed a knight in one round, a land raider one round, and poleaxed a Daemon Prince like a harp seal in one round of swinging.
Rolling it out here, live and in color:
Slamguinius with DVoS, and Angel's Wing JP (-1 CP)
Charge in from DS with DoA: Rolled an 8, rerolling gives a 12" Charge (3D6) (-2 CP)
Rolling 1D6 for Red Rampage: 3, so +2 attacks (-1 CP)
Swing first, 7 attacks: 4, 3, 2, 2, 5, 6, 6. Five hits, no rerolls.
Toughness 7 or lower (I know of no DP's with toughness higher than 7) wounding on 2+
Roll 5 to-wound D6: 3, 1, 2, 1, 6. Three wounds at 4 Damage Each
Roll saves of 5++ for a Daemon Prince: 3, 4, 1. Twelve Wounds inflicted. Absent re-rolls, or Disgustingly Resilient rule, that's a dead daemon prince.
Granted that's one roll-off, but still, it shows that you could easily smash a Daemon Prince aside with little effort, and a Knight or even a Land Raider would be easy to destroy with only 4 or so CP spent in the effort most of the time.
p5freak wrote: Captn Slamguinius on a bike with SS, death visions of sanguinius, gift of foresight, and hammer of baal. Thats T5, W6, 3++, 5+++ rerolling 1s. He can still use his BS 2+ with the bikes twin boltguns. Teams up with lemartes because he is death company and can reroll failed charge and failed hit rolls.
As good as this would be, I don't think it's really worth the endeavor of doing as this will likely be illegal next edition. I got kinda hyped by this idea though, running him with a bunch of Scout Bikers backed up by fire support. I'm kind of questioning the legality of it now. The original Captain on Bike was for "Space Marines" and this is Blood Angels and not vanilla Space Marines, which is technically different. I don't know the stance on this whether it would be legal or not.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Technically, one can't run a Captain without at least one bolt pistol. Two bolt pistols is perfectly legal.
Question is why would you run a captain with two bolt pistols ? Company veterans can run with two plasma or two inferno pistols, you can choose freely from the pistols list. But a captain must have at least one bolt pistol, its ridiculous. He should be able to choose whatever he wants.
I suppose if you wanted him cheap. He can shoot both bolt pistols during close combat, so it is decent. Obviously, if you want to Shell out more points, you can take an Inferno Pistol or plasma pistol. It is a little bizarre that you can't change his bolt pistol out for another pistol.
Yeah,
I'm going to piggy pack off Red Thirst and vouch for Slamguinius. I stand by that character 100% every time. The first game I used him, in my first turn it completely erased a shadow sword. Artisan of War combined with the relic jump pack is sooooo goooooood. Command points are there to spend, so who cares if deleting a 500+ point lord of war costs some? Even if he dies which he will, trading a 120 pt model for a 500pt lord of war is always worth it every time.
To say smash captain "isn't good" is just crazy talk.
I don’t think anyone is arguing he “isn’t good”. I certainly wouldn’t take that position. I’m arguing that you shouldn’t expect miracles, which, frankly, is what expecting a 120ish point model to take out a Daemon Primarch would be.
And yes, Red Thirst, 0 damage. Between 2s to hit, 1s to wound, and passed invulnerable saves, he did 0 wounds to a nurgle Daemon Prince and then got carved up by said Daemon Prince (who left him with one wound) and a smite killed him next turn. That was just the nature of that game; all my goodies got eviscerated through circumstance and bad rolling. My opponent and I in our post game chat definitely saw where things could have been different based on the scenario alone. He’s fearful of sanguinary Guard, but I think he has no fear yet of Captain Slamguinius, which I’ll certainly use to my advantage next week.
At the same time, you can reliably do a significant bit of damage. There will always be outliers where you either miss everything and/or the enemy makes every save.
As a whole, Capt. Smash will more than make up his points in the damage he can inflict. Due to his rerolling 1's and wounding everything on a 2+, he's a reliable damage dealer. I think it's safe to say that he is an extremely reliable damage dealer for the points he has. He's not getting shot off the table turn 1. He's making almost every one of his charges. He's not missing more than 1 or 2 attacks while dealing 4 damage a piece. He's a solid character and arguably the best overall unit in the codex.
That sucks. Bad rolls happen, though with the dice stacked in our favor so heavily with Slamguinius, those shouldn't happen normally. Volume of dice plus hitting on 3+ with rerolling 1's mean you should reliably get at minimum 4 or more hits a turn, and then against all but the toughest opponent you're wounding on anything but 1's too. That kind of result (0 damage) will be the exception, not the rule.
Let that DP and your hammer captain Slamguinius tie up next game, and hopefully you'll put the fear of Angels into him with it on the second go-round.
Also, to be clear, I never claimed that he would straight take out a primarch, daemon or otherwise, but that he would likely put some damn good damage on target all the same, hopefully carving a good 4 or even 8 wounds off the big baddy in one-fell-swoop. Slamguinius could, barring outlandish save rolls on the part of the enemy, drop most any greater daemon in one combat phase. That's substantial, no matter how you slice it.
As good as this would be, I don't think it's really worth the endeavor of doing as this will likely be illegal next edition. I got kinda hyped by this idea though, running him with a bunch of Scout Bikers backed up by fire support. I'm kind of questioning the legality of it now.
Who cares about next edition ?? I'm playing now, and its perfectly legal.
Yep, totally agree Red Thirst. You also weren’t the one saying he has a “good chance” of killing a Primarch. That said, despite his poor showing last game I’ll be taking him again, and likely nearly every game. I do agree with the poster who said it could be one of the best things in our codex.
As good as this would be, I don't think it's really worth the endeavor of doing as this will likely be illegal next edition. I got kinda hyped by this idea though, running him with a bunch of Scout Bikers backed up by fire support. I'm kind of questioning the legality of it now.
Who cares about next edition ?? I'm playing now, and its perfectly legal.
Didn't say you couldn't. I just said I don't think it's worth the endeavor. For me, if I'm going to put in the time, effort, and money for models, I want to make sure they have the best chance of being useable in the game for as long as possible. I care about the next edition and a lot of other people have stated the same when they talk about using units from the Index that don't appear in the Codex (RIP Roughriders).
There is something i dont understand about red rampage. It says i can use it in any fight phase (that would include my opponents fight phase), but only if i have charged earlier in the turn. If its my opponents turn then i couldnt have charged earlier in the turn. I can only charge in my turn. Why does it say that i can use it in any fight phase ? I dont get it.
p5freak wrote: There is something i dont understand about red rampage. It says i can use it in any fight phase (that would include my opponents fight phase), but only if i have charged earlier in the turn. If its my opponents turn then i couldnt have charged earlier in the turn. I can only charge in my turn. Why does it say that i can use it in any fight phase ? I dont get it.
In case they ever add a way to charge in the enemy phase to BA's. Or maybe such a thing existed at some point in development but was later cut.
Hi there! I´m back to playing BA since 6th, this 8ed has been an Only ´Nids gaming so far and i feel i need to kick some ash in order to restore balance
I would love to have a couple of tips on a list i´m building. It is something in the order of a battalion + a vanguard. I am aiming to a 1750 points list melee focused with screening vs alfa strike and some mobility to catch obj during game.
As i will buy some stuff next week would be nice to have an idea of what might work and what doesn't.
***HQ***
Captain +JP+ TH+ MCBolter
Libby Dread
***Troops***
Scout Sniper
Scout Sniper
5 TAC ***Heavy Support***
5 Dev cherub+2Las
***Flyer***
Stormraven MM+2Las+hurricane
***Transport***
Razorback Ass Cann
Razorback Ass Cann
***HQ***
Chaplain JP infernoP
***Elites***
Company Ancient Inferno P JP DC x7 1PF+pistol/Chain
DC x8 1 PF+pistol/Chain
It´s like 1726 and i have another 5 TAC+5 Termi Ass. But I can´t see how to better the sinergy or if it is enough punch to be a real threat to Eldar or ´Nids.
Any tips?
Company Ancient [4 PL, 81pts]: Inferno pistol, Jump Pack
Death Company [16 PL, 131pts] . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol, Power fist
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company [16 PL, 148pts] . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol, Power fist
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
I would exchange the TAC for another scout sniper squad (+10 pts.)
Replace the chaplain with lemartes (+30 pts.), give your captain the death visions of sanguinius, gift of foresight, and hammer of baal, or the relic jump pack. He gets the DC keyword and can reroll failed charge rolls and failed hit rolls when he is within 6" of lemartes. When you deepstrike DC, lemartes and the captain let the captain charge first (with the relic jump pack your opponent cannot fire overwatch). Now you can either use the 3D6 charge stratagem or reroll a failed charge roll with lemartes/jump pack relic. If you give the captain the hammer of baal he hits on 2+ but has to eat overwatch. But with 4++ and 5+++ rerolling 1s he can take it. Now charge the rest, lemartes last. All can reroll failed charge rolls because of lemartes.
I would use the rest of the points to add some more inferno pistols/PF to the DC. Or twin lascannons on a razorback.
Company Ancient [4 PL, 81pts]: Inferno pistol, Jump Pack
Death Company [16 PL, 131pts] . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol, Power fist
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company [16 PL, 148pts] . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol, Power fist
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
I would exchange the TAC for another scout sniper squad (+10 pts.)
Replace the chaplain with lemartes (+30 pts.), give your captain the death visions of sanguinius, gift of foresight, and hammer of baal, or the relic jump pack. He gets the DC keyword and can reroll failed charge rolls and failed hit rolls when he is within 6" of lemartes. When you deepstrike DC, lemartes and the captain let the captain charge first (with the relic jump pack your opponent cannot fire overwatch). Now you can either use the 3D6 charge stratagem or reroll a failed charge roll with lemartes/jump pack relic. If you give the captain the hammer of baal he hits on 2+ but has to eat overwatch. But with 4++ and 5+++ rerolling 1s he can take it. Now charge the rest, lemartes last. All can reroll failed charge rolls because of lemartes.
I would use the rest of the points to add some more inferno pistols/PF to the DC. Or twin lascannons on a razorback.
That sounds Awesome! one question thought, are the shotgun on the scouts worth anything?
How are most people running their Scouts now a days? Snipers with Cloaks? Or just plain with bolters? Camo Cloaks seem far too worth it to pass IMO. Snipers might attract too much attention to the scouts while they objective hold is my biggest worry, but at the same time if they are focusing on my Scouts it's better than them focusing on my Death Company or Sanguinary Guard.
Red Comet wrote: How are most people running their Scouts now a days? Snipers with Cloaks? Or just plain with bolters? Camo Cloaks seem far too worth it to pass IMO. Snipers might attract too much attention to the scouts while they objective hold is my biggest worry, but at the same time if they are focusing on my Scouts it's better than them focusing on my Death Company or Sanguinary Guard.
Any option which is 0 pts is generally the best for scouts.
I generally field my scouts with camo cloaks when I have points to do so (majority of the time) and bolt pistols + combat blades. It does reduce their effective range to 12", but they're cheap, and surprisingly effective in melee.
I intend to eventually run a squad of them with bolters and a heavy bolter or missile launcher in the future as well for some added dakka and the odd heavy weapon hail-mary from cover. We'll see how it goes, but I think it could work well.
Sniper rifles work well, but need weight/volume of fire to really put wounds on target reliably. You're better off going with combat blades & pistols, or bolters & pistols if you're running small squads of them. A single large squad can work well with the sniper rifles though.
Emicrania wrote: Is the company ancient worth his points?
At 72 points with the Jp it feels a bit underwhelming compared to the company champion, or is it just me?
I think the company champion is underwhelming, and ancients are fairly useful for gunlines. SG Ancient is the only Ancient I would run in my lists.
I keep my Company Ancient with Relic Banner camping near my 4 Devastator Squads.
He more than earns his points back between keeping my Devs alive, and allowing them to be useful in death. He generally makes his points back and then some.
Red Comet wrote: How are most people running their Scouts now a days? Snipers with Cloaks? Or just plain with bolters? Camo Cloaks seem far too worth it to pass IMO. Snipers might attract too much attention to the scouts while they objective hold is my biggest worry, but at the same time if they are focusing on my Scouts it's better than them focusing on my Death Company or Sanguinary Guard.
Any option which is 0 pts is generally the best for scouts.
Red__Thirst wrote:I generally field my scouts with camo cloaks when I have points to do so (majority of the time) and bolt pistols + combat blades. It does reduce their effective range to 12", but they're cheap, and surprisingly effective in melee.
I intend to eventually run a squad of them with bolters and a heavy bolter or missile launcher in the future as well for some added dakka and the odd heavy weapon hail-mary from cover. We'll see how it goes, but I think it could work well.
Sniper rifles work well, but need weight/volume of fire to really put wounds on target reliably. You're better off going with combat blades & pistols, or bolters & pistols if you're running small squads of them. A single large squad can work well with the sniper rifles though.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
U02dah4 wrote:Boltguns+ stormbolter on sgt because the better range tends to outweigh the CC benefit when im useing them primarily to screen my guard gunline.
Sounds like the best option is to keep them as cheap as possible especially since I'll just be using them to hold objectives and give me those CPs I need. Thanks!
It has a straight 3 damage instead of D3. Against multiwound or targets with feel no pain it’s far more reliable. Against standard single wound enemies they’re functionally identical.
Emicrania wrote: Is the company ancient worth his points?
At 72 points with the Jp it feels a bit underwhelming compared to the company champion, or is it just me?
Ancient can be quite good for overcharging plasma squads. The Standard of Sacrifice is quite good too on multi-wound squads.
The banner relic on a Primaris Ancient is the lynchpin to my Primaris heavy BA army. Giving FnP to Hellblasters backed up by Intercessors is invaluable. It's not the WAAC tournament setup but makes Primaris far more appealing.
The Standard of Sacrifice allowed me to do some real silliness in a game I just finished.
Mephiston solo killed Magnus. The Thousand Sons player went first, and although I was able to deny a lot of his important Psychic powers, I couldn't stop Warptime onto Magnus who used it to set up a charge against Mephiston and my Twin Assault Cannon Razorback.
Mephiston survived Magnus' onslaught, with his 5+ to ignore wounds, and the 5+ to ignore wounds on the banner. Mephiston was also in range of my Captain and LT... He took 12 wounds off of Magnus in my opponents turn. I left him in combat with Magnus hoping my opponent wouldn't interrupt, but saved 2 CP in case he did. He killed Mephiston when he interrupted combat, but I spent the 2 CP to allow Mephiston to swing as he dies and he took down Magnus.
Lesson learned, deployments can win you the game, and that banner is NOT to be underestimated. I have 3 Devastator Squads wholly within 6" of that banner as well, and it more than made it's points back in my game.
Also of note, you bring up a good point about wording. The banner affects models and not units, but you don't have to be wholly within the radius. You just have to allocate wounds to models that are.
Hoodwink wrote: Also of note, you bring up a good point about wording. The banner affects models and not units, but you don't have to be wholly within the radius. You just have to allocate wounds to models that are.
I found it worth it to have all the models in there. That way I can have the bolter dude catch small arms fire and be harder to kill. By the end of the game I had just lost a few Devs from the three 5 man squads. They were a real bear to take out, even for Rubric Marines.
Oh yeah, it's great to have them all in if you can, but people should know it's not a requirement since some buffs require you to be wholly within the radius.
Just found out that the the main gun of the sicaran battle tank is assault type. Which means the tank can race 20" across the battlefield (with the lucifer pattern engine stratagem) and still fire (at BS-1) its twin accelerator autocannon. Sweeeeet.
p5freak wrote: Just found out that the the main gun of the sicaran battle tank is assault type. Which means the tank can race 20" across the battlefield (with the lucifer pattern engine stratagem) and still fire (at BS-1) its twin accelerator autocannon. Sweeeeet.
Additional hilarity: if you shoot at a FLY unit, you don't even get the assault penalty.
Additional hilarity: if you shoot at a FLY unit, you don't even get the assault penalty.
True , but only with the autocannon Also you dont get the hard to hit penalty, if the FLY unit has it. Which has nothing to do with advancing the tank. The main gun suffers no penalty to its hit roll when it targets units with the FLY keyword. Sponson guns suffer penalties, though.
I managed to play a short game today. We managed to make it to turn 3 but had to call it before starting that turn due to time constraints.
I ran my Slamguinius captain in a 1500 point Blood Angels list, and went up against Ultramarines with Guilliman.
Open War deck mission, and I managed to go first. My opponent had the redeploy 3 units Ruse, and redeployed Gulliman and a couple of other units to screen him over to one side. I was able to break through the screen with Slamguinius and, with the help of a single a mortal wound I managed to inflict with Blood Boil on ole Guilliman in the preceding psychic phase, was able to drop him in the first turn with some concentrated Hammer blows to his cranial region. I was able to get 2 wounds through his invuln and he failed the command point reroll of one of them a second time, netting me 8 wounds to finish Papa Smurf off before he could swing.
Guilliman promptly stood up on my opponents turn 1, and killed my Captain with his hand held heavy bolter, but my opponent was equal parts surprised and terrified of the destructive power the captain brought to bear.
That all being said, Captain Slamguinius is quite fun for sure, and I'll be using him again soon.
My captain slamguinius, with SS, angels wing, death visions, gift of foresight, and hammer, boosted with red rampage (8 attacks), managed to wipe out a six model plasma inceptor squad. Thats 354 pts. killed with 129 pts.
I would never play a 6 model unit of plasma inceptors, they are devastating when shooting, even more as DA, but they die quite easily in CC. I did play 9 models of bolter inceptors (3 units) as outrider detachment. Those remove any screens really well. Two units of them were killed by the plasma inceptors, before captn slammy took them out.
Just popping in for a quick question: You are basically screwed if you want to run like Flesh Tearers, right? Because you can't get access to the relics, and Seth alone isn't enough to make them worth taking? They were like the only BA type of chapter I liked the look of but it seems they are objectively worse than just making your own BA successor so you can get access to all the base relics. :(
Even BA Successors only get access to The Archangel's Shard. Only proper Blood Angels can use the full list of relics.
Thankfully I barely had any paint on my army when I still planned on running them as Knights of Blood. I know that very few people would have called me out on it, but not worth the hassle.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Even BA Successors only get access to The Archangel's Shard. Only proper Blood Angels can use the full list of relics.
Thankfully I barely had any paint on my army when I still planned on running them as Knights of Blood. I know that very few people would have called me out on it, but not worth the hassle.
Yeah but if you make your own nothing stops you from just saying "I am using these as normal Blood Angels" and nobody is going to have an issue with that since color schemes are not enforced.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Even BA Successors only get access to The Archangel's Shard. Only proper Blood Angels can use the full list of relics.
Thankfully I barely had any paint on my army when I still planned on running them as Knights of Blood. I know that very few people would have called me out on it, but not worth the hassle.
Yeah but if you make your own nothing stops you from just saying "I am using these as normal Blood Angels" and nobody is going to have an issue with that since color schemes are not enforced.
Very true, I just decided to go proper Blood Angels to avoid any hassle from TFGs or at a tournament. Plus, some of the Blood Angels special characters are well worth it (Mephiston, Lemartes). I wasn't using any special characters in my army before the Codex, but after I proxied them a few times, it seems silly not to use some of them with the minor points increase over their generic counterparts.
Flesh Tearers may actually make a decent gunline. Gabriel Seth, who is fairly cheap, grants a full re-roll, does he not? Just ignore the attack twice ability and leverage his re-roll...still not a good enough reason to paint up an entire new color scheme.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Even BA Successors only get access to The Archangel's Shard. Only proper Blood Angels can use the full list of relics.
Thankfully I barely had any paint on my army when I still planned on running them as Knights of Blood. I know that very few people would have called me out on it, but not worth the hassle.
Yeah but if you make your own nothing stops you from just saying "I am using these as normal Blood Angels" and nobody is going to have an issue with that since color schemes are not enforced.
Very true, I just decided to go proper Blood Angels to avoid any hassle from TFGs or at a tournament. Plus, some of the Blood Angels special characters are well worth it (Mephiston, Lemartes). I wasn't using any special characters in my army before the Codex, but after I proxied them a few times, it seems silly not to use some of them with the minor points increase over their generic counterparts.
Not sure where the myth came from that tournaments care about your color scheme. I have literally never seen or heard of one that does. Even huge events like LVO are perfectly fine with things like "blue white scars" and "red ultramarines." I've never even meet a supposed "TFG" that actually brought it up.
Most tournaments DO want your army painted, but how they are done up is entirely your call.
Fair enough, it was really just for my piece of mind. Seeing Mephiston painted up as a Knight of Blood wouldn't have sit well for me. And, just to avoid any confrontations about it... in case they EVER came up.
If you want your captn slammy to live longer add some company vets as bodyguards and company ancient with standard of sacrifice. If your opponent manages to wound your captn, even with mortal wounds, the vets will intercept that wound on 2+. Every intercepted wound will mortal wound them, but the standard allows them to ignore those wounds on 5+. If they die they can still shoot or fight on 4+. A sang priest or novitiate will be able to resurrect those killed vets, or heal your captn. Everyone can use JP.
p5freak wrote: If you want your captn slammy to live longer add some company vets as bodyguards and company ancient with standard of sacrifice. If your opponent manages to wound your captn, even with mortal wounds, the vets will intercept that wound on 2+. Every intercepted wound will mortal wound them, but the standard allows them to ignore those wounds on 5+. If they die they can still shoot or fight on 4+. A sang priest or novitiate will be able to resurrect those killed vets, or heal your captn. Everyone can use JP.
Anybody Running Assault Marines? Ive been going with 2 squads with plasma or melta depending and its been just okay. My inceptors get to fill out the rest of a fast attack detachment and im always happy to bring them
If they were troops it would be magic! But as it is its one of our cheapest deep striking units. even at that point, most of the time I'd rather have Vanguard vets with plasma pistols with some more solid dedicated melee and as always Death company do that second part better
U02dah4 wrote: I dont think it matters if your running a mono chapter list
However if these blue ones are salamanders and these blue ones a raven guard and these blue ones ultramarines im calling it as confusing
This however, has been brought up in the tournament scene. If you are soup'ing similar units, several events are starting to insist that the different chapters/regiments/whatever be easily distinguished. You could still have red ultramarines and a unit of blue white scars, but a red ultras tac squad and a red white scars tac squad in the same list is no bueno.
U02dah4 wrote: I dont think it matters if your running a mono chapter list
However if these blue ones are salamanders and these blue ones a raven guard and these blue ones ultramarines im calling it as confusing
This however, has been brought up in the tournament scene. If you are soup'ing similar units, several events are starting to insist that the different chapters/regiments/whatever be easily distinguished. You could still have red ultramarines and a unit of blue white scars, but a red ultras tac squad and a red white scars tac squad in the same list is no bueno.
On the contrary, I think the tournaments would be fine with it as long as you put a mark on their bases or even something as simple as "the guys with guns pointing up are X and down are Y".
I think it's entirely a case-by-case basis as it depends on, realistically, how easy it is to tell models and factions apart. If they were all painted differently depending on which army they represent, no one will bat an eye. If they were all painted the same with "this guy pointing this way is X and this guy hunched over is Y" I think it's an entirely different scenario. I really don't think I'd be comfortable with it. Situations where they are all painted the same would easily cause confusion regardless of base notches or the models' poses. I'm also huge on WYSIWYG, especially in any big event. I don't mind a model here or there as long as it's clear but once you start doing that with multiple units, it gets confusing and annoying.
I know this thread is primarily geared toward min/maxing in a competitive scene, but I'm hoping to get a little input on my casual list:
I'm putting together a Blood Angels list for casual games, mostly against my wife. She plays an AdMech gunline focused around 4xDakkaStellans, 2x Neutronagers, and a Knight. I'm not looking to be super competitive, being that I mostly just play against her, I just don't feel super excited about any of the ideas I've had to fill out the following list. There's almost 400 points to play with, and I can't come up with anything else I find interesting/fun/fluffy.
My list is built mostly around a Death Company Strike Force box, which is why the DC Dread is in there. I also really enjoy terminators, even though I know they aren't optimal. That leaves me with the Stormraven as the most viable method of getting both of those units into combat, as terminators not making their 9" deepstrike charge makes me nervous, and the dread walking across the board isn't likely to make it. What I'm really looking to do is add something that'll draw fire from the Stormraven, which makes me think of adding some Razorbacks, or even adding two more flyers to get another CP from an air wing. I could also add another cheap battalion for more board control and CP's.
The problems I'm having are self-inflicted. I don't enjoy repetition, so the thought of adding multiple Razorbacks bores me, as does the thought of more scouts. I also don't like the fluff behind Primaris, so I'm not terribly interested in adding any Intercessors or anything else. I also don't like the idea of having named characters in the list, as it's not realistic they would bother with a small battle like a 2000pt match really is, realistically speaking. I only talked myself into Lemartes because he's so good, and the large number of marines, captain, and dreadnought falling to the Black Rage all at once might be enough to pique his interest from across the galaxy. In the same vein, I don't really want to add any Sanguinary Guard, because they're too elite. Three predators for killshot would be an obvious answer, as it would necessitate focus fire on a pred to prevent killshot, but again with the repetition.
None of those restrictions are set in stone at all, I know there aren't too many more options. Does anybody have any ideas, or feel like the repetition of 2-3 Razorbacks/Predators/Stormtalons would be worth the boring factor? Please talk me into something, I keep waffling back and forth.
Death Company [27 PL, 312pts]: Jump Pack
3x Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power sword
12xDeath Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
Death Company Dreadnought [9 PL, 164pts]: Furioso fist (pair), Magna-grapple, Meltagun, Storm bolter
Terminator Assault Squad [11 PL, 235pts]: Teleport homer
x5 TH/SS
Martel732 wrote: A generic libby with the relic pack can easily lock down the robots.
That's something I hadn't considered, thanks for that. I had planned on using my captain with the relic jump pack to prevent the overwatch from the Knight, but the overwatch from the robots is just as scary.
Martel732 wrote: A generic libby with the relic pack can easily lock down the robots.
That's something I hadn't considered, thanks for that. I had planned on using my captain with the relic jump pack to prevent the overwatch from the Knight, but the overwatch from the robots is just as scary.
My generic JP Libby with The Angel's Wing has become public enemy #1 at my club, he is the most hated model in my army for a good reason.
Two games ago he led the charge after getting Quickening off into a max sized squad of Flamers, Screamers and a Herald... My opponent was furious that between the Libby and Death Company, that side of his flank was simply deleted.
Martel732 wrote: I'm afraid BA are out of luck vs Eldar until Dark reapers get updated. I've told local Eldars I'm not bothering until March faq drops.
You're assuming that there will even be an update to Dark Reapers. Never underestimate GW screwing up.
Honestly, looking at your super list there, I am having trouble figuring out why you put the Relic JP on a Librarian, but used Wings on him. I suppose he gets an extra move each Psychic Phase. He really doesn't get anything else from the power.
Martel732 wrote: It's not a super list. It's just the only way I could think to use my painted drop pod.
Deep strike -> wings to close distance -> charge to turn off overwatch for Mephy and/or DoA unit. If wings goes off, the charge is guaranteed.
GW has done enough in 8th to earn my trust that something will happen to Dark Reapers in March. If not, they'll just win NOVA, too.
That is certainly a good point. I might look into a SCD of three Librarians for my Blood Angels. I already have a JP Librarian painted up and everything (though he has a Staff, which isn't great, IMO).
Martel732 wrote: The damage the actual charging libby does isn't important.
That is true. I like Force Swords better though. I suppose I could convert the Blood Ravens Librarian into a Blood Angels Libby with Jump Pack easily enough.
Martel732 wrote: Mephiston empyrically channeling quickening and then popping red rampage is worth the price of admission
Shoot, I had been considering taking Mephiston out of my lists until I stopped playing him like poop. He is truly amazing IF he gets his powers off. As long as I don't slingshot him forwards alone he is truly amazing now.
But you are correct, the JP Libby's damage is unimportant. Any damage he does after shutting off Overwatch is just a bonus. For a while I have been running him with Quickening instead of Wings... Total mistake.
The slam captain is obviously good. But what I wonder is how good is a second one?
Bringing both down on turn 1 is risky. 3d6 charge on 1 and re-roll charge on the other feels to risky. Esp the re-roll one will still fail often. Is waiting a turn to drop the 2nd to give both 3d6 charges worth it?
Is the staggering a problem? Letting the opponent deal with each in turn.
I bring 2 but the second i give the veritas vitae to and leave at the back of my linrs as a counter charger or redeploy useing the strategem once I have fewer CP
Quick question, what are the sort of things we can use as good anti-tank? Are a couple of preds w/ autocannons and lascannon sponsons a good bet? Anything within the Primaris units?
Tiberius501 wrote: Quick question, what are the sort of things we can use as good anti-tank? Are a couple of preds w/ autocannons and lascannon sponsons a good bet? Anything within the Primaris units?
Cheers in advance
A couple Lascannon Dev squads with the heavy weapons in the Banner of Sacrifice's aura. Buff them with a dirt cheap Captain and Lieutenant and they will savage a lot of armor, and will punish your opponent for shooting at them by shooting in your opponents turn. They are actually quite durable when in cover and benefitting from the banner's 5+ Feel No Pain.
I personally run three 5 man Dev squads with 3 Missile Launchers and a Cherub in each, and I am rarely dissapointed by them. I chose Missile Launchers over Lascannons purely because of aesthetic reasons, even though they are inferior to Lascannons. I like them over Preds because any anti-armor weapons that do D6 damage is wasted killing a single Devastator, and if they roll low on the damage the banner may keep that Devastator alive with the Feel No Pain.
Tiberius501 wrote: Quick question, what are the sort of things we can use as good anti-tank? Are a couple of preds w/ autocannons and lascannon sponsons a good bet? Anything within the Primaris units?
Cheers in advance
A couple Lascannon Dev squads with the heavy weapons in the Banner of Sacrifice's aura. Buff them with a dirt cheap Captain and Lieutenant and they will savage a lot of armor, and will punish your opponent for shooting at them by shooting in your opponents turn. They are actually quite durable when in cover and benefitting from the banner's 5+ Feel No Pain.
I personally run three 5 man Dev squads with 3 Missile Launchers and a Cherub in each, and I am rarely dissapointed by them. I chose Missile Launchers over Lascannons purely because of aesthetic reasons, even though they are inferior to Lascannons. I like them over Preds because any anti-armor weapons that do D6 damage is wasted killing a single Devastator, and if they roll low on the damage the banner may keep that Devastator alive with the Feel No Pain.
I almost do the same but I bring 3 5 men Dev squads with 2 lascannon each to have 1 additional ablative wound in each squad.
The time has come my blood brothers. I will be bringing my 2000 point list to the local tournament. Well see how it goes. Im bringing Librarian in terminator armor, dropping in with 3 squads of 10 tactical termies all with assault cannons, using the archangel strat to re roll all hits the turn they come in, 3 squads of 6 intercessors, led by a primaris librarian and a gravis captain. For the Emperor! For glory! Gravis captain has the archangel's shard, and I spent 1 command point to give the primaris librarian the veritas vitae relic, any additional command points I get will be used to give my characters d3 extra attacks when I need it.
Was gonna use Gift of Forsight on the Gravis Captain, and for psychic powers for each Librarian Quickening and Unleash Rage.
Thoughts? And yes I realize this is a very unique list : )
Crusaderobr wrote: The time has come my blood brothers. I will be bringing my 2000 point list to the local tournament. Well see how it goes. Im bringing Librarian in terminator armor, dropping in with 3 squads of 10 tactical termies all with assault cannons, using the archangel strat to re roll all hits the turn they come in, 3 squads of 6 intercessors, led by a primaris librarian and a gravis captain. For the Emperor! For glory! Gravis captain has the archangel's shard, and I spent 1 command point to give the primaris librarian the veritas vitae relic, any additional command points I get will be used to give my characters d3 extra attacks when I need it.
Was gonna use Gift of Forsight on the Gravis Captain, and for psychic powers for each Librarian Quickening and Unleash Rage.
Thoughts? And yes I realize this is a very unique list : )
I agree with gunsmith. Good luck, you will need a LOT of it. I guess you are not playing matched play ? In matched you can only use each stratagem once (strike of archangels works on one unit only), and you can only try to manifest the same psychic power once per turn. You can only use red rampage in the turn you charged. Dont forget your teleport homers.
Thoughts ? Termis are wasted points in 8th for BA, sang guard are better in pretty much every way. After deepstriking you will have a hard time getting anywhere, only 5" movement (you can teleport back using the homers). You cant relocate any termis with upon wings of fire, works for JP units only. Sang guard can move 12", and you can relocate them. They can reroll any failed hit rolls when a warlord is nearby without a stratagem.
But if you really want to play them, here is my advice. Remove the veritas vitae (it lets you roll for every stratagem, not for every command point spent) and two termi models. Bring a company ancient, with the standard of sacrifice. It gives all units within 6" a 5+++. This will help keeping those termis alive who fail their charges (your chance of making it is only 28%), and he is only 72 pts. In addition the banner lets every killed model shoot or fight before being removed on a roll of 4+. 72 pts. is a very good investment to protect ~1300 pts. You could remove two more termi models to include a chaplain, who lets you reroll all failed hit rolls in the fight phase. Or a captain, who lets you reroll any hit rolls of 1.
In matched play you can use a strategem more than once, it just cant be in the same turn. I just read the rulebook. That does change my plans somewhat. I did forget about the psychic powers, so im gonna need to figure that out. Ancient would be amazing, im gonna try and squeeze him in.
Tactical Termies... wouldn't call them wasted points in 8th... 1 squad of 10 has served me well, this is just a crazy list I built cause I wanna see what it can do and I had 30 termies lying around.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Managed to squeeze in a Primaris Ancient with the relic banner, so got him with my Gravis captain, Primaris Librarian, 1 squad of 6 intercessors, 2 squads of 5 intercessors, and 30 termies with assault cannons dropping in with the termie librarian. Will try and get the ancient in range of the termies later in the game, and I like the fact my troops are now more durable early game as well. TY for the idea.
Crusaderobr wrote: In matched play you can use a strategem more than once, it just cant be in the same turn. I just read the rulebook.
I suggest you read the rulebook again. You can use the same stratagem more than once in a turn, but not in the same phase. Exception are stratagems that are not used during a phase, like before the battle begins, before your turn begins, at the end of the movement phase, etc.
Managed to squeeze in a Primaris Ancient with the relic banner, so got him with my Gravis captain, Primaris Librarian, 3 squads of 5 intercessors, and 30 termies with assault cannons dropping in with the termie librarian. Will try and get the ancient in range of the termies later in the game, and I like the fact my troops are now more durable early game as well. TY for the idea.
Now... what psychic powers to use...
A company ancient can use a JP and deepstrike with the termis. Unleash rage is not bad for a unit of ten termis. I suggest blood boil, and wings of sanguinius. Quickening is not bad, but its not easy to manifest, and libbys are no hard hitters.
Yep your right. You would only use Archangel strat once in a turn anyway though, so same difference. Thanks for the clarification though, I tend to skim read without realizing it sometimes.
Shield of Sang might be useful for my troops on the ground, might use that on my Primaris Librarian. Def going to be using Unleash rage, like you said, really nice on 10 Terminators.
As a whole, Capt. Smash will more than make up his points in the damage he can inflict. Due to his rerolling 1's and wounding everything on a 2+,
There are plenty of things in the game T7 or higher. He doesn't wound those on a 2+.
When he charges he wounds everything T7 on 2's still because of The Red Thirst. What are you fighting that is T8? Land Raiders? They are laughably bad, easily tied up by junk infantry. What else do you honestly see that's T8 in tournaments?
With good numbers, sanguinary guard can put more wounds on a smaller number of targets than death company can thanks to -2 or -3 AP (Depending on axe, sword or power fist) and each one doing D3 wounds per hit. Ideally you'll want to hit them with Unleash Rage to give them a 3rd attack each.
That said, against chaff/hordes, death company carry the day with volume of attacks. Sanguinary Guard are better at dealing with harder targets with multiple wounds. In my experience, anyway.
On another note, while I'm thinking about Blood Angels, does anyone have a competitive reason for running Sanguinary Guard over Death Company?
And my second question, why are your Lascannons not shooting at those targets instead? Running competitive Blood Angels without a good firebase is just asking to lose.
Even with wounding on 3's against those targets, he will smash them with a quickness. So we will very likely earn his points back every game.
I do agree with you on Sanguinary Guard vs Death Company, I have had zero reason to run Sanguinary Guard when I can run 10 Death Company for pretty much half the price.
Martel732 wrote: I'm getting hit with a lot of one damage weapons still. SG also give some hq flexibility.
I run Lemartes with my Death Company, because not only is he a budget beat stick, he provides the crucial charge distance reroll, and rerolls for the DC to hit in melee. Even with Lemartes I believe I am still coming out on top in points over Sanguinary Guard.
Don't Sanguinary Guard only get the free rerolls when they are within 6" of your warlord? How is that more flexible, you are forced to smash your warlord into the front lines. I love my dirt cheap Captain warlord with Soul Warden, since he almost never dies and his job is rerolls for my firebase and adding another source of psyker denial. I wouldn't trade him for the world. Especially for an HQ choice that is likely to die the turn after he comes in.
Most of my lists are using capt hammer or a libby with the relic pack. SG and DC are good for very different targets, and so I don't usually directly compare them. In fact, I usually sacrifice the DC to open the path for the SG. SG are wasted on chaff units. The SG are usually my kill shot after my opponent's ability to cope has been diminished.
My warlord is almost always on the front line, so maybe that doesn't bother me much. My foot captain is only a babysitter.
Also, Sanguinary ancient as a warlord is a pretty slick trick with SG.
Martel732 wrote: Most of my lists are using capt hammer or a libby with the relic pack. SG and DC are good for very different targets, and so I don't usually directly compare them. In fact, I usually sacrifice the DC to open the path for the SG. SG are wasted on chaff units. The SG are usually my kill shot after my opponent's ability to cope has been diminished.
My warlord is almost always on the front line, so maybe that doesn't bother me much. My foot captain is only a babysitter.
Also, Sanguinary ancient as a warlord is a pretty slick trick with SG.
This. Ever since the codex dropped I've been using a DC suicide charge to muck up the enemy formation while SG and the ancient warlord with banner land in cover nearby and prepare to mop up. They are near invincible in cover with that banner. Had a game where they tanked 10 d scythes, a wraithlord charging, psychics from eldrad and a spirit seer, and shots from 2 serpents and a war walker. They lost 4.5 guys and the following turn, things turned grim for the eldar as captain hammer denied d scythe overwatch and everyone got stuck in.
My prospective GT brigade is doing pretty good. Picking up a fair amount of prize support off it. Just this weekend I won a small event and came in second in a large league. Still thinking about what I want to spend all the store credit on.
My Slamguinious Captain preformed extremely well the two times I've run him.
I do plan on bringing a Sanguinary Guard Ancient into the list at some point and using it as a means to help keep an Assault element alive.
My eventual plan is to have a 5 man squad of either Company Veterans (Or Vanguard Veterans) with jump packs, and storm shields, plus other melee weapons (A Fist, an axe, 2x chainswords for early ablative wounds, and a Thunder Hammer on the Sgt). This will have the Sanguinary Guard Ancient with Standard of Sacrificeand a small unit of Sanguinary guard (5 models) running along with them. This will be led by a large unit of Death Company & Lemartes landing ahead to sew chaos into the enemy ranks and make room for the second landing unit to arrive.
Still working on what else I want in the list, but I'm liking this so far.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Edit: My recently finished Slamguinius Captain, which I run as Captain Sendini, of the 5th Battle Company. I'll mention that he dropped Guilliman in one round on his inaugural run on the tabletop. Guilliman promptly stood back up and killed the Captain, but it was a moral victory dropping the Primarch before he could even swing.
This thread has converted me to SG in a big way. I’ve taken 8 man squads the last two games, they were wiped in the first game (but it took a ton of firepower to do so) and last game they killed 20 plague marines, 18 pox walkers and a plagueburst crawler. 8 fists with Vengeance for Sanguinius, and the SG ancient as warlord with relic banner and a JP librarian for unleash rage makes for a ton of quality hits.
Next game I think I’m going to take an Ancient with relic banner to hold down a firing position and use a JP librarian as warlord for SG. Rerolling 1s to wound isn’t as important as rolling more hits with exploding 6s. If they die, they die. They just need to smash something big when they arrive. That way I can spend fewer points on that roving unit. I used VV clear chaff but DC would be far better for that thanks to bolter fire.
I agree with p5freak that SG are better than termies, but I have some cataphractii to build that I’ll use at some point; the models are just too nice not to.
I’m still not convinced of the Libby dread. He was shut down haaaard last game. Was not able to cast wings or quickening thanks to deny or failing to cast in the first place, and this happened on two critical turns which made him ineffective, and then dead lol.
Just want to let you know for the future Bremon, you can't use exploding 6s with powerfists. Powerfists dictate that you suffer -1 to hit. Any result of a 6 you roll counts as a 5. It works the same way with Death to the False Emperor. This ruling is in one of the many FAQs.
I really ought to have caught that. I feel foolish now, but my regular opponent will feel extremely relieved...well that certainly makes a case for encarmine swords. Thank you very much for the clarification ultimentra, that will help me avoid future cheating for sure!
Well what about replacing the meltagun with the heavy flamer? They're the same points cost, so you're rocking the storm bolter + heavy flamer instead. Seems like a viable option.
The meltagun is also excellent of course. I'll have to ponder upon it.
I prefer the flamer to melta because A) we don’t have salamander rerolls and b)I’ve had heavy flamer help obliterate things that were trying to act as speed bumps. Key word is help.
Red__Thirst wrote: So I've started work on a Death Company Dreadnought, and was looking for some feedback on how to go about arming it.
Currently I'm thinking fists for the higher Strength, and reroll to hit coupled with better AP (-3).
Underslung weapons will likely be a Meltagun and a Heavy Flamer, along with a Magna Grapple up top for the reroll charge if I'm gunning for a vehicle.
This sucker will be deployed from a Storm Raven. Has anyone got any experience running a DC Dread, and what did you find most effective?
Thanks, and take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
I've had a question in regards to the death company dread running in a Stormraven (or really for any vehicle being transported by another). I know this is more of a you make the call thing than tactics but I never got an answer there.
If my Stormraven blows up with my dread still inside, is it the same as if it was infantry, roll a dice and on a 1 my dread is just straight up dead? It worries me as my list only has the stormraven and dread as vehicles, which means they will draw all the heavy fire.
I usually run a 10 man tac squad with heavy flamer/flamer/Combi flamer in the storm raven with my DC dread. The dread might not be the most competitive thing we have but it's very fun in casual/friendly games. I used to roll it with fists/heavy flamer/meltagun/magna grapple but I've switched it up recently and have been running it with talons, meltagun/stormbolter and think I currently like this load out the best. The tac squad with all the flamers make up for not having a heavy on the dread and they tend to focus on wiping things off an objective while the dread just runs at vehicles and monsters and punches them in the face. One thing is certain, if you're bringing a storm raven with a death co dread, it's a lot of points for what is essentially a very big distraction that will get focus fired and shot down if you don't get first turn. My success with that dread/raven combo has only been games where I got first turn and was able to zoom the raven into the backfield. If you're going up against a shooting heavy army I suggest taking a big blob of death company with forlorn fury to put the pressure on and maybe help take some of the sweat off.
Tldr: it's very fun, but just be careful because I've had games where it did alot of work and games where it just died and cost me alot of points to do nothing and cost me a game or two when your raven crashes, dread gets shot and blown up and your filler squad inside takes heavy casualties from bad rolls.
FlashyGit wrote: I usually run a 10 man tac squad with heavy flamer/flamer/Combi flamer in the storm raven with my DC dread. The dread might not be the most competitive thing we have but it's very fun in casual/friendly games. I used to roll it with fists/heavy flamer/meltagun/magna grapple but I've switched it up recently and have been running it with talons, meltagun/stormbolter and think I currently like this load out the best. The tac squad with all the flamers make up for not having a heavy on the dread and they tend to focus on wiping things off an objective while the dread just runs at vehicles and monsters and punches them in the face. One thing is certain, if you're bringing a storm raven with a death co dread, it's a lot of points for what is essentially a very big distraction that will get focus fired and shot down if you don't get first turn. My success with that dread/raven combo has only been games where I got first turn and was able to zoom the raven into the backfield. If you're going up against a shooting heavy army I suggest taking a big blob of death company with forlorn fury to put the pressure on and maybe help take some of the sweat off.
Tldr: it's very fun, but just be careful because I've had games where it did alot of work and games where it just died and cost me alot of points to do nothing and cost me a game or two when your raven crashes, dread gets shot and blown up and your filler squad inside takes heavy casualties from bad rolls.
Ya I figure that first turn is pretty essential. I typically face off against Death Guard, Space Wolves, or GSC (and soon Custodes). So long range shooting isn't too too scary (save for long fangs/csm land raiders). I do have a 12 man DC unit backed by Lemartes and a 7 man SG unit backed by Slamguinius and Sanguinary Ancient with FNP banner, so I certainly have pressure. I just need to make sure I can keep my pressure units alive long enough after the drop to do more than kill just 1 unit and save time for the scouts and DC dread to arrive as backup.
So guys question for you. I've been theory crafting with various lists. Basically what I have come down to is:
I'm playing double battalion, I'm utilizing Death Company, Sang Guard, 8 lascannon shots, 2 quad mortars, and a good amount of bodies.
I've come where I have two choices. Either 1) I can take a 7 man Sang Guard Squad, 11 man Death Company, and I can take a Lieutenant to hang back with my Lascannons for 10 command points, basically double battalion + spearhead
OR
2) I can take out the lieutenant, start with 9 command points, and that gets me 1 extra Sanguinary Guard, 1 extra Death Company, and couple extra weapons here and there.
What's better? Extra command point and a lieutenant? Or extra bodies and guns?
Hey guys, I am trying to build up an auxiliary force to augment my Sororitas army to get back some close combat. I was thinking about finding something fast and pretty decent at clearing chaff, maybe threatening some characters or light vehicles in a pinch. I have a bunch of melta shots like any good sisters player, so that shouldn't really be necessary.
I was thinking some death company or sanguinary guard in a vanguard detachment. Probably willing to invest about 750ish points to the cause.
I'll probably be running a battalion on the sisters side, but CP is currently only going to rerolls for acts and denying. Looking at 7 CP minimum, possibly 10.
Any help in what I can do with that? Bonus for a couple extra denies. Though not required if "Captain Hammer" is just that much better, he can assassinate psykers if they get too uppity on me.
Purifying Tempest wrote: Hey guys, I am trying to build up an auxiliary force to augment my Sororitas army to get back some close combat. I was thinking about finding something fast and pretty decent at clearing chaff, maybe threatening some characters or light vehicles in a pinch. I have a bunch of melta shots like any good sisters player, so that shouldn't really be necessary.
I was thinking some death company or sanguinary guard in a vanguard detachment. Probably willing to invest about 750ish points to the cause.
I'll probably be running a battalion on the sisters side, but CP is currently only going to rerolls for acts and denying. Looking at 7 CP minimum, possibly 10.
Any help in what I can do with that? Bonus for a couple extra denies. Though not required if "Captain Hammer" is just that much better, he can assassinate psykers if they get too uppity on me.
Thanks!
Sorry to invade your thread, otherwise!
So 750'ish?
Lemartes or Capt Slamguinius
SG ancient w/ relic banner
~7man SG ~12 DC w/ JP, couple hammers and all bolters & chainsword
Purifying Tempest wrote: Hey guys, I am trying to build up an auxiliary force to augment my Sororitas army to get back some close combat. I was thinking about finding something fast and pretty decent at clearing chaff, maybe threatening some characters or light vehicles in a pinch. I have a bunch of melta shots like any good sisters player, so that shouldn't really be necessary.
I was thinking some death company or sanguinary guard in a vanguard detachment. Probably willing to invest about 750ish points to the cause.
I'll probably be running a battalion on the sisters side, but CP is currently only going to rerolls for acts and denying. Looking at 7 CP minimum, possibly 10.
This vanguard detachment can kill chaff and threaten heavy vehicles, even LOW.
Death Company [18 PL, 165pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Chainsword, Inferno pistol
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
Death Company [18 PL, 165pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Chainsword, Inferno pistol
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
Death Company [18 PL, 165pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Chainsword, Inferno pistol
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword
Take it easy.
Also nice how they increase your deployment count, because they cant go in any transport, except the repulsor. Who wants first turn anyway ? Also their weapon choices are fantastic. They can choose from 4, wow, so impressive. Company vets have 24 
The models itself look great, though. I like the proportions.
