Martel732 wrote: I dont' like the company vets as they'll likely be illegal in 9th.
In 9th, whenever/if that actually happens, they'll morph to Vanguard Veterans. The only thing I don't get access to in a Company Veterans squad is the Relic Blade, which is nice, but I'd rather run a Thunder Hammer for consistent damage on the Sergeant, and I prefer the intercept wound rule for nearby characters.
It may be invalidated, but I don't foresee it. I expect another Index to release in 9th (whenever it releases) for old-school builds and models such as Company Veterans with Jump Packs and Sanguinary Novitate/Company Champion/Sanguinary High Priest w/ Jump Pack options. Though, honestly, I don't think we'll be getting a new edition for a long, long time. They'll be patching/revising the game with their FAQ's, bi-yearly updates, and chapter approved to address balance that a new edition would previously address.
Razerous wrote: What's better... scouts or SG in melee? Just curious how the cost breaks down?
Too many variables to assess reliably. Against GEQs, those Scouts will cause more wounds per point spent on them than SG. Against MEQs, the balance tips in favour of the SG. Against multi-wound models, the SG are far ahead. Then there is the value of the 2+ save, 2 wounds etc.
The question is not really which is better in melee but what they can bring to your army. CC Scouts can deploy to screen your own army from enemy infiltrators and Deep Strike units. They can quickly and cheaply get close to the enemy and start harassing stuff or clear a landing zone while your SG and DC drop in to charge.
Comparing them really is apples and oranges as they are very different units. I do believe that Scouts offer BAs a lot and are a great way to fill your Troops slots if you want a Battalion or two (and you will do if you want enough CPs to power those tasty stratagems).
p5freak wrote: Is there any way for us to shoot in the fight phase ?
No, no that I'm aware of, you can only shoot pistols (or a weapon that operates as a pistol via an ability or special rule, such as the Vostroyan Regimental order they can issue) in the shooting phase of your turn while engaged, I.E. within 1" of an enemy unit in your own shooting phase.
Having Inferno Pistols and to a lesser extent hand flamers available for pistol options just brings more (awesome) options for Blood Angels that want to stay engaged instead of falling back out of combat.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Inferno Pistols are so much fun. Nothinf better than popping a Daemon Prince in the shooting phase while in melee.
The look on your opponents face is glorious.
I plan on having at east one in every melee oriented squad that can take one. My Death Company squads will likely get one in every five, as well.
Right now the conundrum I face is how to equip a soon to be started 5 man Assault Squad. Do I go with my initial plan of dual Meltaguns with an inferno pistol/power sword (or axe) Sergeant, or do I instead go with a pair of Plasma Guns and a Combi Plasma & Lightning Caw Sergeant?
I'm leaning toward the latter now, as I think it would be a fun way to drop in and put some hurt on a hard target, or keep them close to my Captain and overcharge hard and often while bouncing around the field melting faces with 3x, or 6x Plasma shots a turn depending on range.
I'll have to do a price comparison of that Assault squad build versus a 3 man Inceptor squad with 6x Plasma Exterminators. I'd love to run both in unison together, truth be told.
Right now the conundrum I face is how to equip a soon to be started 5 man Assault Squad. Do I go with my initial plan of dual Meltaguns with an inferno pistol/power sword (or axe) Sergeant, or do I instead go with a pair of Plasma Guns and a Combi Plasma & Lightning Caw Sergeant?
Can Assault Squad Sergeants even take Combi-Weapons?
Why still use limited gear assault or vanguard squads when company veterans have access to pretty much everything except heavy weapons ? The index version can use JP.
Hi all. Played my first game with the new codex. Got a victory against the death guard at 1.5k I had:
Spoiler:
Jump cap with relic blade and angel's wing (failed only charge ), Warlord: 6" ignore morale.
Jump libby with wings and shield. (Failed wings when needed .)
4 tac squads: 2x5 w/ Las-cannon, 2x5 w/ 1 plasma gun, sarge with storm bolters and chain swords in a rhino.
Lemmy
3x5 jump d-coy w/ 1 fist each.
S-priest,
Coy Ancient,
S-ancient: Standard of sacrifice, ( man of the match, took so much damage on him and SG because of banner)
S-guard (5): swords and angelus bolters.
He had:
Spoiler:
LoC,
3x7 Plague marines, 2 w/ plasma and fist, 1 w/ melta and fist in rhino,
7 possessed in rhino,
2 blight/plague lawnmowers/blight drone things, which are nasty btw.
1 quad las predator,
I had 8 command points which was just enough for a 1.5k game to do what i wanted to do. 1 was spent on the banner for 7 in game and i used them all over the course of the game. I used lucifer pattern engines and descent of angels turn one and a cp re-roll for the DOA . Never needed forlorn fury or upon wings of fire as everyone ended up close enough after DS. I Forgot red rampage SO many times. Lucifer engine's deserve a note.
Our Stratagem's are really good. Between Forlorn fury, wings of fire, lucifer engine's and stoprm raven's we can have almost our entire army in our opponent's DZ or engaging them turn1 especially if everything else is in DS/reserve. That's potentially 6 unit's starting on the table that can move/re-position really quickly. Couple this with scout's, jump pack and terminator assault we should pretty much be assaulting with everything T1 and almost all of the rest T2 except objective sitter's etc. I believe this is what we have to do to get the most from our codex.
A few random thought's and musing's.
Spoiler:
Lucifer pattern engine's strat on rhino's are bloody handy, sod the baal's, this is where to use that strat. Got me 10 tac's in his dz turn 2 which helped support my main push no end.
Tac's are not 100% rubbish as most seem to think.
I'm still not amazed by death company. Even with chainswords and bolters it took 15 of them and lemartes to kill 7 plague marines. Lemmy killed 4 they killed 1or 2, morale got the rest. Maybe not the best opponent to show them off against but he had no zombie's. If your opponent isn't ready for SG they will tear through most things.
The ancient and the banner are auto-includes for me from now on it did so much on it's own and I even forgot the re-roll1's to wound.
Even with all of the re-roll's to charge (lemmy+angels wing) El Capitaino and 2 DC squad's were left hanging. I suppose half isn't too bad statistically.
Sanguine priest brought back 2 guy's which was nice even though i forgot the +1S. Will probably still try a Lieutenant in future though.
Multi-damage weapons are excellent. I now see why those Encarmine Sword's are so expensive. Same with the relic blade. Particularly so against such resilient armie's. When taking multi resilient tests there more likely to die Simple but so true and i'm sure factored in to thier points. Same as warlord re-roll.
-2 ap weapon's just don't cut it for me. Even the +1S isn't enough for axe's. If you have the choice go fist before axe's. Or las-cannon's before missile launcher's.
Lemartes is a wee beast. All thank's to his crozius really, he was battering through things no problem.
Vehicle's are a lot tougher than i give them credit for. I only had the rhino and thought it was gone T1 after i messed up my deployment only for his quad las predator to fail to wound it.
If it's in the index it's in the bin is how i'm looking at it now. These option's won't be around in future. Of that I'm pretty sure.
My only question is. Can you use upon wing's of fire to remove a unit if they are within 1" of an enemy model, ie from CQC? and if so do they count as falling back? I was told yes you can remove them but they count as falling back. Is that the case?
Sorry for the randomness of the post but i hope it help's in some way.
My only question is. Can you use upon wing's of fire to remove a unit if they are within 1" of an enemy model, ie from CQC? and if so do they count as falling back? I was told yes you can remove them but they count as falling back. Is that the case?
Yes you can use Wings of Fire to pull your units out of melee. No it does not count as a Withdraw move since it is not normal movement.
The squad is free to act normally and even charge a different target if they wish.
In the fall back rule it say's :if you begin your movement phase within 1" of an enemy unit you can either remain stationery or fall back.
It doesn't seem to allow any exemptions and wing's of fire provide none to it. I wasn't even sure you could use it at all within 1".
It's stay still or fall back (using normal movement rules of course) but nothing seem's to allow you to do anything else.
Does it say somewhere that it provide's an exemption or is "not normal movement"? Anything to confirm it really because until it does i'm falling back to anywhere on the table according to my group. Although for only 1 cp i could see it being just fall back anywhere. Any help appreciated.
kryczek wrote: Are you sure? It doesn't say in the strat it can?
In the fall back rule it say's :if you begin your movement phase within 1" of an enemy unit you can either remain stationery or fall back.
It doesn't seem to allow any exemptions and wing's of fire provide none to it. I wasn't even sure you could use it at all within 1".
It's stay still or fall back (using normal movement rules of course) but nothing seem's to allow you to do anything else.
Does it say somewhere that it provide's an exemption or is "not normal movement"? Anything to confirm it really because until it does i'm falling back to anywhere on the table according to my group. Although for only 1 cp i could see it being just fall back anywhere. Any help appreciated.
GWFAQ:
"Q: If a unit starts its Movement phase within 1" of an enemy
unit but elects to remain stationary, but subsequently uses a
rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them
up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of
Infinity psychic power, is it considered to have Fallen Back
this turn?
A: No."
The only action that counts as falling back is falling back. Anything else that happens to remove you from combat is penalty-free.
Right now the conundrum I face is how to equip a soon to be started 5 man Assault Squad. Do I go with my initial plan of dual Meltaguns with an inferno pistol/power sword (or axe) Sergeant, or do I instead go with a pair of Plasma Guns and a Combi Plasma & Lightning Caw Sergeant?
Can Assault Squad Sergeants even take Combi-Weapons?
You're correct, I hadn't looked at the assault squad entry in the new codex to see for sure. I might put a plasma pistol on the Sgt. and run a lightning claw or just a Power Sword on him instead. I lose out on one shot at 24" and one shot at 12" and closer. Might consider running a pair of plasma pistols instead.
Also of note, Grey Knights can basically do the same thing as Blood Angels as far as getting out of CC penalty free. GK can use their Infinity Gate psychic power to redeploy on the board while BA use a stratagem to do the same thing. Both are legit and used as intended.
Picked up a BA Intercessor box. I think I’m leaning towards auto bolt rifles this time around, it should give them some extra mobility and be decent for midfield action. The new codex has me on a spending spree lol.
Hoodwink wrote: Also of note, Grey Knights can basically do the same thing as Blood Angels as far as getting out of CC penalty free. GK can use their Infinity Gate psychic power to redeploy on the board while BA use a stratagem to do the same thing. Both are legit and used as intended.
Command points are a scarce resource. Here is my guide to get/save command points.
Include a detachment of ultramarines. Their warlord trait is every time you use a Command Point, roll a D6. On a 5+, this Command Point is refunded. Note that you roll for each command point spent.
Include a detachment of dark angels. Their warlord trait is once per battle, your Warlord gets a free re-roll and you get a CP back each time you use a strat on a 5+. Not as good as ultramarines, if you use a 2 or 3 CP strat you only get to roll one dice.
Include a detachment of astra militarum. Their warlord trait grand strategist is whilst your Warlord is alive, you can re-roll a single hit roll, wound roll or saving throw per battle. In addition, if your army is Battle-forged and this Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a dice for each Command Point spent when using Stratagems. On a 5+ that Command Point is immediately refunded. This is the best because you get to roll for every command point. Also add kurovs aquila, each time your opponent uses a Stratagem, roll a D6. On a 5+ you gain 1 Command Point. Its free if your warlord is from astra militarum.
Use 1 CP to buy the veritas vitae for one your BA characters. If your army is Battle-forged and the bearer is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you use a Stratagem; on a 5+, you gain a Command Point. You can use grand strategist maybe you get the CP back.
If you use the veritas vitae and grand strategist/kurovs aquila combo you get to roll two dice for every 1 CP stratagem you use. If you roll 5+ on both dice you get 2 CP. Kurovs aquila lets you roll everytime your opponent uses a stratagem, on a 5+ you get a command point.
Another way to get a command point is the damocles command rhino. Roll 2D6 at the end of each of your turns if your Warlord is embarked within a Damocles Command Rhino. If the total rolled is less than your Warlord's Leadership characteristic, you gain one Command point. This doesnt allow you to use the dark angels or ultramarines warlord trait, because your warlord is not considered to be on the battlefield while embarked. But the chance of rolling a 8 or less with two dice is higher than rolling a 5+ on one dice. If your warlord is ultramarines he gets leadership +1, and if you give him the +1 leadership warlord trait from the BRB you get 1 CP on a roll of 10 or less. This is pretty expensive (~200 pts.) and it only lets you roll once per turn. Probably not worth it.
Another way to save CPs is to use the land raider prometheus. While your army's Warlord is embarked within this model one Stratagem played in a turn by the controlling player costs one fewer Command point than normal (to a minimum of 1). Its nice to save 1 CP, but its only once per turn. Also probably not worth it.
p5freak wrote: Command points are a scarce resource. Here is my guide to get/save command points.
Include a detachment of ultramarines. Their warlord trait is every time you use a Command Point, roll a D6. On a 5+, this Command Point is refunded. Note that you roll for each command point spent.
Include a detachment of dark angels. Their warlord trait is once per battle, your Warlord gets a free re-roll and you get a CP back each time you use a strat on a 5+. Not as good as ultramarines, if you use a 2 or 3 CP strat you only get to roll one dice.
Include a detachment of astra militarum. Their warlord trait grand strategist is whilst your Warlord is alive, you can re-roll a single hit roll, wound roll or saving throw per battle. In addition, if your army is Battle-forged and this Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a dice for each Command Point spent when using Stratagems. On a 5+ that Command Point is immediately refunded. This is the best because you get to roll for every command point. Also add kurovs aquila, each time your opponent uses a Stratagem, roll a D6. On a 5+ you gain 1 Command Point. Its free if your warlord is from astra militarum.
Use 1 CP to buy the veritas vitae for one your BA characters. If your army is Battle-forged and the bearer is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you use a Stratagem; on a 5+, you gain a Command Point. You can use grand strategist maybe you get the CP back.
If you use the veritas vitae and grand strategist/kurovs aquila combo you get to roll two dice for every 1 CP stratagem you use. If you roll 5+ on both dice you get 2 CP. Kurovs aquila lets you roll everytime your opponent uses a stratagem, on a 5+ you get a command point.
Another way to get a command point is the damocles command rhino. Roll 2D6 at the end of each of your turns if your Warlord is embarked within a Damocles Command Rhino. If the total rolled is less than your Warlord's Leadership characteristic, you gain one Command point. This doesnt allow you to use the dark angels or ultramarines warlord trait, because your warlord is not considered to be on the battlefield while embarked. But the chance of rolling a 8 or less with two dice is higher than rolling a 5+ on one dice. If your warlord is ultramarines he gets leadership +1, and if you give him the +1 leadership warlord trait from the BRB you get 1 CP on a roll of 10 or less. This is pretty expensive (~200 pts.) and it only lets you roll once per turn. Probably not worth it.
Another way to save CPs is to use the land raider prometheus. While your army's Warlord is embarked within this model one Stratagem played in a turn by the controlling player costs one fewer Command point than normal (to a minimum of 1). Its nice to save 1 CP, but its only once per turn. Also probably not worth it.
Don’t you need a BA warlord to have a BA relic? Stratagem or not?
Don’t you need a BA warlord to have a BA relic? Stratagem or not?
Says so under Relics of Baal.
Same for AM relics. AM warlord needed.
You dont need a BA warlord to get a BA relic. If you have a warlord you get a free relic for that faction. But you can also buy relics with stratagems.
Don’t you need a BA warlord to have a BA relic? Stratagem or not?
Says so under Relics of Baal.
Same for AM relics. AM warlord needed.
You dont need a BA warlord to get a BA relic. If you have a warlord you get a free relic for that faction. But you can also buy relics with stratagems.
First it's definitely not intended in the armory stratagem second if we follow RAW, it says that you can purchase an extra relic. I don't see how you can have an extra relic if you can't have one in the first place. It doesn't overule the relic rule for warlord.
First it's definitely not intended in the armory stratagem second if we follow RAW, it says that you can purchase an extra relic. I don't see how you can have an extra relic if you can't have one in the first place. It doesn't overule the relic rule for warlord.
Don’t you need a BA warlord to have a BA relic? Stratagem or not?
Says so under Relics of Baal.
Same for AM relics. AM warlord needed.
You dont need a BA warlord to get a BA relic. If you have a warlord you get a free relic for that faction. But you can also buy relics with stratagems.
First it's definitely not intended in the armory stratagem second if we follow RAW, it says that you can purchase an extra relic. I don't see how you can have an extra relic if you can't have one in the first place. It doesn't overule the relic rule for warlord.
Per the Death Guard FAQ, it is absolutely intended for you to be able to use the stratagem to get relics from factions other than your warlord's faction.
Hoodwink wrote: Also of note, Grey Knights can basically do the same thing as Blood Angels as far as getting out of CC penalty free. GK can use their Infinity Gate psychic power to redeploy on the board while BA use a stratagem to do the same thing. Both are legit and used as intended.
I'm not saying that GK are comparable to BA. I'm saying that the GK psychic power and the BA stratagem both do the same thing, and GK set a precedent for removing models from the table and redeploying them without falling back since the GK were released first.
Don’t you need a BA warlord to have a BA relic? Stratagem or not?
Says so under Relics of Baal.
Same for AM relics. AM warlord needed.
You dont need a BA warlord to get a BA relic. If you have a warlord you get a free relic for that faction. But you can also buy relics with stratagems.
First it's definitely not intended in the armory stratagem second if we follow RAW, it says that you can purchase an extra relic. I don't see how you can have an extra relic if you can't have one in the first place. It doesn't overule the relic rule for warlord.
Per the Death Guard FAQ, it is absolutely intended for you to be able to use the stratagem to get relics from factions other than your warlord's faction.
I don't know if this has been covered before or if I've overlooked it but since you have to take the Shard as a relic if you are running a successor chapter, can you use the Armory of Baal stratagem to get a different relic in addition? Assuming the first is the Shard. I guess I'm just kind of confused on if successor chapters are only ever allowed to take the Shard.
Also, has anyone looked at running three Vindicators for Linebreaker? They are cheaper than Predators and damage degredation doesn't affect Linebreaker until one is fully destroyed. RAW it looks like you can move them up, advance, and still get the stratagem off since you are not firing the Demolisher Cannon. This also leads me to believe you can pop smoke at the same time since you are not firing your weapon, as stated by the stratagem. So now you have three T8 tanks in the enemy grill with a -1 to hit and popping off mortal wounds.
Hoodwink wrote: I don't know if this has been covered before or if I've overlooked it but since you have to take the Shard as a relic if you are running a successor chapter, can you use the Armory of Baal stratagem to get a different relic in addition?
No, you cant. Its written on p.135 on top of the page. Successor chapters cannot use the armory of baal stratagem.
Also, has anyone looked at running three Vindicators for Linebreaker? They are cheaper than Predators and damage degredation doesn't affect Linebreaker until one is fully destroyed. RAW it looks like you can move them up, advance, and still get the stratagem off since you are not firing the Demolisher Cannon. This also leads me to believe you can pop smoke at the same time since you are not firing your weapon, as stated by the stratagem. So now you have three T8 tanks in the enemy grill with a -1 to hit and popping off mortal wounds.
RAW yes. But i wouldnt allow it. How are the vindicators causing those mortal wounds if they dont fire their main guns ?
How are they causing mortal wounds without firing their main guns? Don't know. The stratagem specifically says "if you do so, the Vindicators cannot fire their demolisher cannons this phase". So according to the stratagem, they aren't firing their demolisher cannons for terms of gameplay rules.
Hoodwink wrote: How are they causing mortal wounds without firing their main guns? Don't know. The stratagem specifically says "if you do so, the Vindicators cannot fire their demolisher cannons this phase". So according to the stratagem, they aren't firing their demolisher cannons for terms of gameplay rules.
Even if RAW allows it, its cheesy and illogical. RAI, they all shoot their main guns at one spot. The restriction that they cannot fire their cannons is there to prevent you from firing their guns and use the stratagem. If they cant fire their main guns (because they advanced), they cant cause those mortal wounds.
Being able to actually fire the demolisher cannon isn't in itself a requirement to use the stratagem.
You could even advance and still use Linebreaker Bombardment if you really wanted too, since the core rulebook FAQ allowed it:
Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as
Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen
Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?
A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does
not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the
model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.
Number of DC depends on a lot of factors, mainly what you want to sue them for and what else you have in your army. I am currently planning 2 x 10-man squads with Jump packs. One moves up the field with Forlorn Fury, the other Deep Strikes along with Lemartes and uses Descent of Angels. That gives me pretty solid chance of getting both units into the enemy on Turn 1 and a nearly 50% chance of getting Lemartes in alongside them without costing too many points.
If the enemy has deployed screening units, the DC have the volume of attacks to shred them in one turn. If they have left any valuable targets exposed each squad has a couple of power fists and swords meaning they can destroy or heavily maul most targets.
That lot comes to about 600 points which leaves plenty for some objective-grabbers and a decent Beta-strike (probably in a Storm Raven) to take advantage of the hole the DC should punch in the enemy lines.
1250 league game against death guard.
He decided to bring a leviathan dread with grav and whatever that 8 shot -2 leadership gun is, a prince, a plaguecaster, 5 plague marines with a couple plasma, and a knight with avenger/thermal.
I brought a battalion of Mephy, Astorath, SG ancient as warlord with gift of foresight, (I'm thinking maybe I should just give him the fearless aura instead,) 10x SG with swords and 3 fists (all the fists I have or they'd have more,) 15x DC with 3 fists and 3 swords, and 3x 5 cc scouts.
So I deep strike all the jumpers and hide mephy and the scouts in my deployment zone behind a wall. He goes first, moves up, throws a couple psychic buffs and says go. I look at the terrain around him where I'd be deep striking and say "nah, turn 2."
He moves up further, knight in front with the Prince right behind, caster behind him, plague marines behind him, and the leviathan off to the side of the caster. I'm ok with the terrain this time AND he failed the miasma power so I bring on the boys. SG and ancient land in ruins to fire some angelus shots. DC and astorath land on the other side of the knight 9" away from him, the prince, and about 11 away from the caster. Declare multicharge on those 3 and burn descent of angels, and connect with the knight and prince. Mephy also jumps out to the knight, and the scouts try to but fail. I put swords really close to the caster over near the prince. Heavily wound the knight, scratch the prince. He does his attacks and KO's a couple chainsword dudes. I then blow honor the chapter and pile the swords onto the caster, killing him, and bringing the knight to 1 wound while the prince saves a bunch.
He withdraws and spends his shooting and prince smite wiping the DC. Wounded knight charges mephy, gets 1 wound through past his armor and fnp. Mephy chops him apart. My turn SG and ancient go after the prince along with mephy, while the scouts advance up and astorath wildly tries to hold the leviathan for a turn. Asto fails his saves super bad and dies on overwatch, but the prince is quickly dispatched and mephy and guard pile into the plague marines.
He withdraws the plagues and does a lot to the SG unit with the leviathan, leaving 2 dudes after morale. (fearless aura woulda been relevant here.) The SG ancient retreats back to my zone while the scouts all advance ahead. Mephy and the two SG charge into the plague marines, wiping them, and spring off of them into the leviathan to negate a turn of shooting.
He withdraws and realizes he has no hope of killing mephy, two SG, and 15 scouts to get clean shots on my warlord holding my objective, while I tell him I plan to just pile around him and throw shots but not engage in melee, so he calls it.
Afterthoughts:
So instead of going for a forlorn fury DC charge and SG descent of angels charge on the drop turn, I decided to let the SG land in cover surrounded the ancient so they are super ultra durable and the ancient will be able to keep up. I should have however landed in the ruins behind the plague marines instead of just in front and to the side of the knight that the DC were going to chop apart. That did make the prince charge a little risky, but thankfully the dice decided not to make me pay for that error.
I'm really not sure about Lemmy vs. Astorath. The fearlessness from Asty has yet to come into play, because people just obliterate that unit after it does its job, and a 74% charge success with the strat without using a CP reroll makes me clench pretty tightly. I think I will switch back to Lemmy and just accept that the DC are likely dead on the following turn regardless of morale. And hey, if they wait for the morale phase to finish them off, then they couldn't shoot at the character. Lemmy is also cheaper and actually hits a bit harder than Asty if he throws down. Only real upside is that Asty could grant rerolls to hit if he happens to join up with Meph or the guard if they get split from the ancient (or if some models are too far, since heirs of Az ability is on a per model basis,) whereas Lemmy just becomes a berserking dude keeping all his bonuses for himself after the DC die.
Next round is 1500 and I'm still undefeated this league though. Time to brainstorm!
I'm reading this review of the BA codex, and they say DC can pump out over 200 attacks in one fight phase. I dont see how. They have 6 attacks with chainswords, unleash rage, black rage, the sanguinor. Thats 90 attacks for 15 models, and with honour the chapter they can fight again, at the end of the fight phase, getting up to 180 attacks, if they dont lose any models, which is unlikely. How do they get 7 attacks to reach over 200 ?
I'm reading this review of the BA codex, and they say DC can pump out over 200 attacks in one fight phase. I dont see how. They have 6 attacks with chainswords, unleash rage, black rage, the sanguinor. Thats 90 attacks for 15 models, and with honour the chapter they can fight again, at the end of the fight phase, getting up to 180 attacks, if they dont lose any models, which is unlikely. How do they get 7 attacks to reach over 200 ?
I assume they all have 2 chainswords? That would be 2 base, +2 for 2 chainswords, +1 from Unleash Rage, +1 from Black Rage, and +1 from the Sanguinor for a total of 7 attacks each.
p5freak wrote: Ok, so corbulo, astorath, sanguinor, librarian. Thats 500 pts. of buffing characters
Okay fair.
Which of them, if any, are worthwhile?
Sadly, just about all of our special characters are amazing. I would probably say Tycho in both forms is probably the weakest, and IMO, Dante is slightly over priced, but he's still a total beast in CC and of course has the full re-rolls ability for BA. The rest all have either incredible special abilities, very powerful auras, are beasts in CC or a combination of the 2. Corbulo, for me personally, I rank at the back of the pack, but that's only because I run my list as a JP heavy army and he just doesn't fit in with most of the other special characters already coming with a JP or having access to the wings psychic power.
The hardest part of making my lists has been deciding on which 3ish special characters I want to take because they are all that good.
Well, after reading the codex and this thread, I doubt that BA can compete with the armies at the top tables.
Those armies are not so much geared towards cc, but excel in shooting.
Opinions?
Well, if you manage to alpha strike turn 1 almost all of your BA army, and consolidate into other units, there wont be much shooting from the other army. DC can rush across the battlefield with forlorn fury, sang guard can deepstrike and get into CC with wings of fury, a DC dread can be dropped with the FW dread drop pod and use magna grapples to attack a vehicle. The libby dread can use wings of sanguinius and quickening to get into CC. I have no clue if thats possible or not on top tables, its what i think may work.
p5freak wrote: Well, if you manage to alpha strike turn 1 almost all of your BA army, and consolidate into other units, there wont be much shooting from the other army. DC can rush across the battlefield with forlorn fury, sang guard can deepstrike and get into CC with wings of fury, a DC dread can be dropped with the FW dread drop pod and use magna grapples to attack a vehicle. The libby dread can use wings of sanguinius and quickening to get into CC. I have no clue if thats possible or not on top tables, its what i think may work.
All very good ideas.
But at top tables, players know how to prevent an alpha strike by infiltrators or prey units.
Ravenguard seems to be superior here.
Chapter approved and FAQ show us that “top tables” will change regularly. I’m thrilled to have a codex that is reasonably powerful, thematically cohesive and merges the fluff and crunch fairly well. Do we have dud units? Sure. Will they be fixed? Possibly/probably. We are far and away better than our index was, which was what I really wanted. After seeing how briskly the meta changed in the past 6 months I’d rather walk into traffic than be one of the fools spending tons of money on armies they barely care for to try to chase wins in a fast-moving meta. I’ll paint and play what I like and the codex makes that a fairly viable way to go about things.
bobafett012 wrote: I would probably say Tycho in both forms is probably the weakest
Whilst he may be the weakest, I still think he is a good buy if you were planning to buy a Captain anyway for rerolls of 1s. He just costs a few points more than a normal Captain with combi-melta and for those points you get the Deadman's Hand, Blood Song (better bolter) a situationally useful special rule and (best of all) a 2+ save.
Bremon wrote: Chapter approved and FAQ show us that “top tables” will change regularly. I’m thrilled to have a codex that is reasonably powerful, thematically cohesive and merges the fluff and crunch fairly well. Do we have dud units? Sure. Will they be fixed? Possibly/probably. We are far and away better than our index was, which was what I really wanted. After seeing how briskly the meta changed in the past 6 months I’d rather walk into traffic than be one of the fools spending tons of money on armies they barely care for to try to chase wins in a fast-moving meta. I’ll paint and play what I like and the codex makes that a fairly viable way to go about things.
Seconded.
The train of very competitive 40k lists moves really fast.
Dark Reapers are very hot today. But this could change within half a year.
bobafett012 wrote: I would probably say Tycho in both forms is probably the weakest
Whilst he may be the weakest, I still think he is a good buy if you were planning to buy a Captain anyway for rerolls of 1s. He just costs a few points more than a normal Captain with combi-melta and for those points you get the Deadman's Hand, Blood Song (better bolter) a situationally useful special rule and (best of all) a 2+ save.
I'm not saying he's bad, just that in comparison to the rest of our amazing HQs, he's at the back of the train. He actually got a buff in the codex getting dead man's hand in there, but I just feel you'd be better served with most of the other HQs with the book being geared towards CC and JPs.
Razerous wrote: Exactly how good / worthwhile is re-roll to charges, innately?
Ignoring any bonus to movement. This is making a charge from a 9" deepstrike (so needing a 9" on 2d6, as you land >9" away).
Rerolling boosts your chance of making a 9" charge from 28% to 48%.
Also if using descent of angels, you go from 74% to 93%. Going from failing it once or twice in a 6 round GT to statistically succeeding at it all 6 games is pretty big.
The BA Facebook pages are constantly praising captains with jump packs, thunder hammers, and storm shields. Is it just me, or does nerfing a captain to hitting on 3+ and shooting with only a bolt pistol seem like a waste? The SS only helps the inv save from 4+ to 3+, so I can't imagine going from 50% save to 66% justifies losing out on shooting.
I think it's the fact that you can give him a couple of relics like the hammer that negates the -1 to hit. Then maybe the jump pack that gives re-rolls to charge, and no overwatch, and then you take the Artisan warlord trait and that thunder hammer is hitting on 2+, for 4 damage per hit.
If you give him the death visions of sanguinius, he gets the extra attack on the charge and the 6+ FnP. With a couple buffs like red rampage, unleashed rage, and /or +1 attack auras, he can hit a ridiculous amount of times with that 4 damage, 2+ to hit thunder hammer and kill super heavies, among other things, at will.
bobafett012 wrote: I think it's the fact that you can give him a couple of relics like the hammer that negates the -1 to hit. Then maybe the jump pack that gives re-rolls to charge, and no overwatch, and then you take the Artisan warlord trait and that thunder hammer is hitting on 2+, for 4 damage per hit.
If you give him the death visions of sanguinius, he gets the extra attack on the charge and the 6+ FnP. With a couple buffs like red rampage, unleashed rage, and /or +1 attack auras, he can hit a ridiculous amount of times with that 4 damage, 2+ to hit thunder hammer and kill super heavies, among other things, at will.
Some issues with your post here.
-A single model can't take more than one relic.
-Artisan of war cannot be applied to a relic.
Boba, niv is correct. Maybe you're talking about possibilities, and I'm in no way saying a DC captain can't be a beast, but is it worth it? I mean, Dante is a beast, but is he worth it?
If you're going the DC route, there is a good possibility you're taking Lemartes...or you're a successor chapter.. So Lemartes let's you reroll failed attacks in the fight phase (or a generic chaplain rerolling 1s instead). The captain gives you rerolls of 1s in shooting, otherwise his power is redundant. But who really uses their DC to shoot? Everyone is trying to get into CC.
Instead of a DC captain, you can take along a DC lieutenant for less, can still give him a hammer and/or jump pack, and can reroll those wound rolls of 1 to synergize with Lemmy/generic chaplain. Sure, you can't take a storm shield, and the stat line isn't quite as good. But it's cheaper, offers more by the way of combos, and you're not throwing away a ballistic skill of 2+ on a bolt pistol.
30 points more when you add the storm shield, 129 all together.
I suppose this is becoming a personal choice argument, because I usually run the Sanguinary Ancient as warlord to allow that group to do it's own thing.
I can see if you want to have something you can just let go lone ranger and do its own thing, but I usually have Mephiston do that.
Lieutenants [5 PL, 91pts] . Lieutenant: Inferno pistol, Jump Pack, Power sword, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack)
+ Elites +
Death Company [18 PL, 195pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Inferno pistol, Power fist
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
Sanguinary Ancient [6 PL, 107pts]: 3. Soulwarden, Death mask, Inferno pistol, Power fist, Standard of Sacrifice, Warlord
Sternguard Veteran Squad [7 PL, 143pts] . Space Marine Veteran: Lascannon
. Space Marine Veteran: Lascannon
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Veteran Sergeant: Power sword, Special issue boltgun
Put the captain on a bike give him SS and hammer of baal. He can still use his BS 2+ for the bikes twin boltguns. Give him gift of foresight and death visions of sanguinius, T5 W6 3++ 5+++.
Looking to use 3 Squads of death company and lemartes as an allied detachmemt to a hyper aggro sisters list, the plan is to have 2 units of 5 with just pistol/CC (or CC/CC don't have the codex yet) for chaff clearing/low save model hunting and a larger unit of 7-8 for use with the 3d6 charge strategem.
Problem is I don't know what to equip the 7-8 with. I have 57pts(assuming 7 models) left for upgrades so if I gave 5 of them powerswords I could do 2 Thunderhammers and some hand flamers. Or I could do 4 powerfist a sword and an axe, or I could do 8 models with swords...idk.
If you were taking a unit of DC and had 197pts to put into it, knowing you were only gonna 3d6 that unit and had lemartes for backup, what would you bring?
I'm not a big fan of lemartes. If you deepstrike the DC and use descent of angels i dont see the need for rerolling charges, you can still reroll one dice if necessary. A humble chaplain also lets you reroll failed hit rolls and saves you 57 pts. which you can invest in three more DC models or equipment. More models help you to daisy chain in case the chaplain didnt make the 9" charge to still get the ability to reroll failed hits. With lemartes you have three less models to do that.
What equipment ? Boltguns are a must have, twice the shots after deepstriking. I like power axes. You will wound T4 on 2+ and T5 on 3+ when you charge. If you go after high toughness targets power fists/hammers.
p5freak wrote: I'm not a big fan of lemartes. If you deepstrike the DC and use descent of angels i dont see the need for rerolling charges, you can still reroll one dice if necessary. A humble chaplain also lets you reroll failed hit rolls and saves you 57 pts. which you can invest in three more DC models or equipment. More models help you to daisy chain in case the chaplain didnt make the 9" charge to still get the ability to reroll failed hits. With lemartes you have three less models to do that.
What equipment ? Boltguns are a must have, twice the shots after deepstriking. I like power axes. You will wound T4 on 2+ and T5 on 3+ when you charge. If you go after high toughness targets power fists/hammers.
Lemartes gives me the option to NOT spend those 2 command points if I need them elsewhere enough to take the gamble and if I DO use the 3d6 strategem and it fails I really can't afford spending a 3rd CP on the reroll. Basically Lemartes is worth his points simply because it helps mitigate how CP hungry the DC are. (only around 500pts of the army would be blood angels and SoB go through CP pretty quick) I appreciate the input on the boltguns though. Was still thinking 7th ed 'of course you do BP/CC!'
senor_flojo wrote: The BA Facebook pages are constantly praising captains with jump packs, thunder hammers, and storm shields. Is it just me, or does nerfing a captain to hitting on 3+ and shooting with only a bolt pistol seem like a waste? The SS only helps the inv save from 4+ to 3+, so I can't imagine going from 50% save to 66% justifies losing out on shooting.
I really love my Captain Smash! But he usually is a one-shot-only-Beast. He wants to kill the biggest and baddest modell of your opponent. The 3+ to hit does not do much, and if you really want to, just pick the relict-hammer. I would always recomment the Angels Wing as he desperately needs the reroll and also can not tank that much (and sometimes really hart) overwatch-fire.
mainproblem is, that he is soooo hungry for CP, if you want him to be a beast. Even without a push in attackrange: DC-Cap (1), +D3 Attacks (1), attack a second time (3) or hit the opponent after your death (2), reroll (1). UFF! The good thing on the other hand: 129 Points is not that much and if you do not need him as abeast, simply do not spend the CP on him. He is a nice Counterattacker in your Backfield, too.
If you want more firepower, give him a combiweapon instead of the shield. Should not hurt that much - I mean, only if you do not roll as bad as I do, of course...
p5freak wrote: I'm not a big fan of lemartes. If you deepstrike the DC and use descent of angels i dont see the need for rerolling charges, you can still reroll one dice if necessary. A humble chaplain also lets you reroll failed hit rolls and saves you 57 pts. which you can invest in three more DC models or equipment. More models help you to daisy chain in case the chaplain didnt make the 9" charge to still get the ability to reroll failed hits. With lemartes you have three less models to do that.
What equipment ? Boltguns are a must have, twice the shots after deepstriking. I like power axes. You will wound T4 on 2+ and T5 on 3+ when you charge. If you go after high toughness targets power fists/hammers.
Lemartes gives me the option to NOT spend those 2 command points if I need them elsewhere enough to take the gamble and if I DO use the 3d6 strategem and it fails I really can't afford spending a 3rd CP on the reroll. Basically Lemartes is worth his points simply because it helps mitigate how CP hungry the DC are. (only around 500pts of the army would be blood angels and SoB go through CP pretty quick) I appreciate the input on the boltguns though. Was still thinking 7th ed 'of course you do BP/CC!'
The 2CP 3D6 charge is better than re-roll, and worth the 2CP. Lemartes’ reroll doesn’t even tip the odds of making the charge from deep strike in your favour. Lemartes is good, but not specifically a fantastic value over a standard chaplain, and I would argue he’s a worse buff character for DC than Astorath is. Morale is the Achilles heel of the large DC squads that make the most of their abilities. Lemartes sharing LD9 doesn’t do enough to mitigate that weakness.
senor_flojo wrote: Boba, niv is correct. Maybe you're talking about possibilities, and I'm in no way saying a DC captain can't be a beast, but is it worth it? I mean, Dante is a beast, but is he worth it?
Sorry, I posted that very late at night, it was probably running together. I was just listing some of the combos you can use with him. Thing is, Dante can't kill a shadowsword or knight in 1 turn of CC, that captain with 4 damage thunder hammer and all the attacks can. That's how ridiculous he can be. I personally don't use one at the moment, I run tri preds for all my monster/tank hunting, but it's something I might try at some point. It's just neat to think of all the possibilities for him with the different combinations of relics/wargear/strategems.
senor_flojo wrote: The BA Facebook pages are constantly praising captains with jump packs, thunder hammers, and storm shields. Is it just me, or does nerfing a captain to hitting on 3+ and shooting with only a bolt pistol seem like a waste? The SS only helps the inv save from 4+ to 3+, so I can't imagine going from 50% save to 66% justifies losing out on shooting.
If you give him the angels wing so hes immune to overwatch do the stormshield isnt really worth it. As any form of gun will atleast give you more damage output MC Boltgun or Storm seem a better choice.
p5freak wrote: I'm not a big fan of lemartes. If you deepstrike the DC and use descent of angels i dont see the need for rerolling charges, you can still reroll one dice if necessary. A humble chaplain also lets you reroll failed hit rolls and saves you 57 pts. which you can invest in three more DC models or equipment. More models help you to daisy chain in case the chaplain didnt make the 9" charge to still get the ability to reroll failed hits. With lemartes you have three less models to do that.
What equipment ? Boltguns are a must have, twice the shots after deepstriking. I like power axes. You will wound T4 on 2+ and T5 on 3+ when you charge. If you go after high toughness targets power fists/hammers.
3d6 charge from 9" out is only 74% success. Lemartes on hand ups that to 93%. That means over a 6 round GT you are likely to fail 1-2 times on the drop without Lemmy, and likely zero with him. If you have a lot of points invested in the DC descent squad, that is something you really can't afford to fail. Absolutely worth the 39 points, (your 57 forgets to include the jump pack on the chaplain!) not to mention that Lemmy hits much harder than a box standard chaplain, and has a coin flip chance to actually make the charge along with the DC, as opposed to the normie's super low 1 in 4-ish chance.
The 2CP 3D6 charge is better than re-roll, and worth the 2CP. Lemartes’ reroll doesn’t even tip the odds of making the charge from deep strike in your favour. Lemartes is good, but not specifically a fantastic value over a standard chaplain, and I would argue he’s a worse buff character for DC than Astorath is. Morale is the Achilles heel of the large DC squads that make the most of their abilities. Lemartes sharing LD9 doesn’t do enough to mitigate that weakness.
See above for odds. And while morale seems bad for them on paper, I've found it to not mean jack in game.
1. When people get hit by a big descent of angels DC squad, they retaliate and kill them. Not moderately wound. Kill. No morale test.
2. When people see Lemmy right behind them ready to jump in and throw down with his 6 d3 damage attacks, they also want to kill him, which requires removing the entire DC without waiting for the morale phase.
I did switch back and forth between Asto and Lemmy for a while, and it has become painfully clear to me that the morale abilities are only actually useful on super rare occasions, while the reroll to charge is massively important every game.
senor_flojo wrote: The BA Facebook pages are constantly praising captains with jump packs, thunder hammers, and storm shields. Is it just me, or does nerfing a captain to hitting on 3+ and shooting with only a bolt pistol seem like a waste? The SS only helps the inv save from 4+ to 3+, so I can't imagine going from 50% save to 66% justifies losing out on shooting.
Captain Smashypants (as the build seems to be called) is quite handy as he can act as a spoiler. If you are willing to burn lots of CPs on stratagems, he can put out a massive amount of damage in a single round of combat. He is quite capable to 1-shotting Mortarion (or any other Lord of War) which is quite an achievement for a 130-ish point character. Of course it will take 5-7 CPs to pull off.
The advantage of taking him is that a JP Captain is a decent build anyway. Even without burning CPs, he can smash conventional targets very effectively and buff units like Inceptors (which look quite decent since the price drop). If you opponent has brought a big nasty LOW, you have a unit that can solo pretty much anything, even if they cost 3 times his price tag provided you are willing to burn most of your CPs to do it.
Martel732 wrote: What about those of us not assaulting from DS with DC? Because I'm not.
I used to go for forlorn fury, but I found so many moving parts got in my way. Half the time I wouldn't go first, and sometimes out of those the DC would get whittled by indirect fire or mobile platforms like deep strikers or flyers that could zip over and get LOS on them where they were hidden. Sometimes the deployment zones would be long, and they'd deploy back, and my 24+d6 inches wouldn't even make charge range from my front-of-deployment hiding spot. I found that I was just using wings of fire to get them up most of the time anyway, so I figured I'd save a CP and just start deep striking them. Fury worked the way I wanted it to maybe twice out of 10 games. Using them for descent has worked every game since I made that switch. Also I used to use descent on the SG when I planned on having a fury + descent double threat, (plus winging Mephy of course,) but the 1/4 chance of the SG failing the descent charge was too real to be relied on for a 6 round event, so now they land in cover and hit the enemy after their formations have been mucked up dealing with DC, Lemmy and Mephy. Whichever squad gets more valuable targets dragged into combat gets to honor the chapter and cause some real damage.
I have yet to lose a game since I started using the strategy. Also I have found that I don't worry nearly as much when I kill vehicles and they blow up, because all my guys aren't there at once.
I generally don’t play special characters and don’t feel handicapped by it. Once in a while in the future I’m sure I will, bu for the most part I don’t care. Dante is overpriced anyway. Corbulo, Mephiston and the chaplains are nice though.
Herohammer was why our index list sucked. I’m glad they aren’t as big a crutch with the codex; many more options than auras now.
Yesterday I had a game against DG and I won. ( made a quick batrep from the battle, which can be seen on the batrep section)
I had a captain with thunder hammer, inferno pistol, jump pack and death visions of the Sanguinius, but it died when it came from DS and failed the charge.
Sanguinary guard were a crucial victory bringer, flavored with sanguinary ancient for the first two kills it killed a Nurgle daemon prince with suppurating plate (2+ sv, with "thorns"), 2x foetid bloat-drones, few cultists and a foul blightspawn. And I have to say I had 2x inferno pistol & power fist models and the inferno pistols were a bargain for only +6 points increase from the Angelus to have. Angelus boltguns also were good for horde killing, but the inferno pistol in melta range, pure pleasure.
I had a gunline with no re-roll characters in vicinity and ok, against a DG list with no long-range dakka were decent. Special mention to a single plasma cannon because I always super-charged knowing that I can't overheat with the signum from the sergeant. They delivered.
Death company died in rows even with the presence of Astorath negating morale.
Libby dread overkilled a chaos rhino with artisan of war and +3 attacks from the quickening. That thing can kill land raiders with the artisan of war and wings of sanguinius, throw red rampage for maximum carnage.
I realized that how HQ's are so poor at killing hordes. Those are for HQ and meq+ killing, don't go for hordes with them, quality of hits is way too high in regards of quantity.
I have used bigger blobs recently, but I find their theoretical damage output often fails to materialise as they are susceptible to chaff screening/speed bump tactics. I wonder if the more efficient use for them is therefore as small, dedicated anti-chaff units.
Well I’m finally going to start assembling 3 of my 4 unbuilt dreadnoughts. My total will be 6. A Furioso, a Librarian and likely 2 DC, but I’m not completely decided. I think it’s a shame the DC and Furioso are so close, with the DC being the obviously superior option imo. I wish there was more to differentiate them. I ran both an Ironclad and Ven in vanilla lists before our book came out and I miss both the 2+ WS, and the T8.
Hope you have some Stormraven. I tried to field 3 dcDreadnoughts with some dc and a libbiDreadnought. 2 of the dcnoughts were killed round one, the 3rd is way to slow to get near a combat in the first two rounds.
The Libbinought did good job getting deep in the enemy deployzone round one. Would have been nice if he would have goten quickening through. DC makes good damage and dies good. Well its there Fluff
How do people feel about a 10 man DC squad with nothing but Bolters and Chainswords? I am considering throwing in 2 Power Swords to the unit... But anything that NEEDS to die in a game is generally taken care of by my JP Librarian or Mephiston so it seems kind of a waste.
I would honestly rather put the 8 points into buying another Storm Bolter for my 3 Rhinos and 1 for my Razorback.
Joey86 wrote: Hope you have some Stormraven. I tried to field 3 dcDreadnoughts with some dc and a libbiDreadnought. 2 of the dcnoughts were killed round one, the 3rd is way to slow to get near a combat in the first two rounds.
The Libbinought did good job getting deep in the enemy deployzone round one. Would have been nice if he would have goten quickening through. DC makes good damage and dies good. Well its there Fluff
I agree. Dreads are pretty easy to pop if they don't have a delivery system. I killed 3 of 4 of an opponents turn 1 with my DW/RW army in a tournament a couple weekends ago. This is why the libby dread is so good, can't target him.
NH Gunsmith wrote: How do people feel about a 10 man DC squad with nothing but Bolters and Chainswords? I am considering throwing in 2 Power Swords to the unit... But anything that NEEDS to die in a game is generally taken care of by my JP Librarian or Mephiston so it seems kind of a waste.
I would honestly rather put the 8 points into buying another Storm Bolter for my 3 Rhinos and 1 for my Razorback.
No reason not to toss in a few power weapons. Swords or axes. I do like the 2+ to wound with axes for 1 extra point though...
Wandering Dark Angel here, but my son has succumbed to the Red Thirst and is playing Flesh Tearers (he usually played Orks). His list came up hard against two Chaos players yesterday. I was wondering if the group can offer some comments on his list:
Battalion Detachment:
HQ - Chaplain with Jump Pack, Captain
Troops - Five Man, Scout Squad, Five Man Tactical Squad, Five Man Tactical Squad
Elites - Vanguard Vets with Jump Packs, tooled with Power Fists and Power Swords
Heavy Support - Devastator Squad (Lascannon, Missile, Plasma Cannon, Heavy Bolter)
Vanguard Detachment:
HQ - Gabriel Seth (the point of the army for him), Sanguinary Priest;
Elites - Death Company (8 man with variety of weapons), Terminator Squad (5 man), Dreadnought
Flyer - Stormraven (Twin Assault Cannon, Twin Multimelta, Hurricane Bolters, Stormstrike Missiles)
He faced tournament styled lists - one was all Noise Marines. I was engaged in my my own game so I missed most of the action. The main constraint is staying Flesh Tearers with Gabriel. The Stormraven has been great against my OPFOR Genestealers, but it fell pretty quick to some Noise Marines in game 1 and a Dreadnaught in Game 2. Its a huge points sink, but Seth needs a delivery system - maybe a Drop Pod?
Yeah, in my opinion the problem with his list is lack of target saturation for the Stormraven. It being the only vehicle in the list means all your opponents anti-vehicle will just focus on it and blow it out of the sky.
Drop pod with seth would probably be better since its hundreds of points cheaper, gets Seth close to the action and allows you to add in 200+ more points to his list.
bobafett012 wrote:
I agree. Dreads are pretty easy to pop if they don't have a delivery system. I killed 3 of 4 of an opponents turn 1 with my DW/RW army in a tournament a couple weekends ago. This is why the libby dread is so good, can't target him.
If you want a durable dread use a contemptor. It has a 5+ invuln sv., 10 wounds, move 9", and hits on 2+. Even with 3 wounds left it still moves and hits like a regular dread. There are more variants from FW. If you want an absolute beast of a dread use the leviathan. Its 308-366 pts., but its worth every point.
sorry if this has already been done but has anyone ran the numbers on our codex yet? like a PPD or wound output vs various units. interested to see the comparison between sang guard and DC..
Battalion Detachment:
HQ - Chaplain with Jump Pack, Captain
Troops - Five Man, Scout Squad, Five Man Tactical Squad, Five Man Tactical Squad
Elites - Vanguard Vets with Jump Packs, tooled with Power Fists and Power Swords
Heavy Support - Devastator Squad (Lascannon, Missile, Plasma Cannon, Heavy Bolter)
Vanguard Detachment:
HQ - Gabriel Seth (the point of the army for him), Sanguinary Priest;
Elites - Death Company (8 man with variety of weapons), Terminator Squad (5 man), Dreadnought
Flyer - Stormraven (Twin Assault Cannon, Twin Multimelta, Hurricane Bolters, Stormstrike Missiles)
Not a fan of vanguard and terminators. I would add more DC models instead of the vanguard. And sang guards instead of termis. To me DC and sang guard are the best CC units for BA. I also suggest 1 or 2 rhinos/razorbacks to reduce deployment count, to have a better chance at getting first turn.
Does using Lucifer Pattern Engines actually count as advancing? Upon rereading it, it says use it before advancing, and then never says it counts as advancing. At the end, it does say do not roll a die, which may imply advancing, but it's not clear...
Also, am I crazy, or have I just missed again and again that the wording of the banners each of our Ancients carry say that the abilities they grant effect units or models within 6" of Blood Angel Ancients (not just the banner bearer they happen to be near). Meaning, if I had all 3 different banner bearing Ancients on the field at once, the units in effect range of each banner would receive all 3 banner effects even if the Ancients were no where near one another. Am I reading that right?
Does using Lucifer Pattern Engines actually count as advancing? Upon rereading it, it says use it before advancing, and then never says it counts as advancing. At the end, it does say do not roll a die, which may imply advancing, but it's not clear...
Yes, LPE counts as advancing. Thats the way i read, and understand it. What i dont understand is why.
Also, am I crazy, or have I just missed again and again that the wording of the banners each of our Ancients carry say that the abilities they grant effect units or models within 6" of Blood Angel Ancients (not just the banner bearer they happen to be near). Meaning, if I had all 3 different banner bearing Ancients on the field at once, the units in effect range of each banner would receive all 3 banner effects even if the Ancients were no where near one another. Am I reading that right?
Yes, if one unit is within 6" of all three ancients it would receive all three banner effects.
Also, am I crazy, or have I just missed again and again that the wording of the banners each of our Ancients carry say that the abilities they grant effect units or models within 6" of Blood Angel Ancients (not just the banner bearer they happen to be near). Meaning, if I had all 3 different banner bearing Ancients on the field at once, the units in effect range of each banner would receive all 3 banner effects even if the Ancients were no where near one another. Am I reading that right?
Yes, if one unit is within 6" of all three ancients it would receive all three banner effects.
Thanks for answers.
Yes, I know that if a unit is with 6" of all 3 ancients it would receive all the banner effects. What I'm pointing out is it appears that the way the banner rules are worded, all 3 banner bearers could be in different corners of the battlefield and if, say, a tactical squad was within 6" of one, it'd receive all 3's banner abilities.
As i am reading in my German Codex.
You get +1 to your morale,. dont matter how many Ancients are around you.
Edit: At least 1
The TremiAncient and the Sanguinary Ancient Banner only work 6 inch arount that model, while the Company Ancient lets you do his buff around any BloodAngel Ancient.
Also, am I crazy, or have I just missed again and again that the wording of the banners each of our Ancients carry say that the abilities they grant effect units or models within 6" of Blood Angel Ancients (not just the banner bearer they happen to be near). Meaning, if I had all 3 different banner bearing Ancients on the field at once, the units in effect range of each banner would receive all 3 banner effects even if the Ancients were no where near one another. Am I reading that right?
Yes, if one unit is within 6" of all three ancients it would receive all three banner effects.
Thanks for answers.
Yes, I know that if a unit is with 6" of all 3 ancients it would receive all the banner effects. What I'm pointing out is it appears that the way the banner rules are worded, all 3 banner bearers could be in different corners of the battlefield and if, say, a tactical squad was within 6" of one, it'd receive all 3's banner abilities.
this is the first interpretation I’ve seen like this. To say this seems against the spirit of the rules and has no basis in “rules as intended” is putting it mildly. I’ll have to read my codex when I’m home from work to check “rules as written”, but again, I would think this isn’t possible.
Also, am I crazy, or have I just missed again and again that the wording of the banners each of our Ancients carry say that the abilities they grant effect units or models within 6" of Blood Angel Ancients (not just the banner bearer they happen to be near). Meaning, if I had all 3 different banner bearing Ancients on the field at once, the units in effect range of each banner would receive all 3 banner effects even if the Ancients were no where near one another. Am I reading that right?
Yes, if one unit is within 6" of all three ancients it would receive all three banner effects.
Thanks for answers.
Yes, I know that if a unit is with 6" of all 3 ancients it would receive all the banner effects. What I'm pointing out is it appears that the way the banner rules are worded, all 3 banner bearers could be in different corners of the battlefield and if, say, a tactical squad was within 6" of one, it'd receive all 3's banner abilities.
this is the first interpretation I’ve seen like this. To say this seems against the spirit of the rules and has no basis in “rules as intended” is putting it mildly. I’ll have to read my codex when I’m home from work to check “rules as written”, but again, I would think this isn’t possible.
FWIW, I have only ever ran one of the Ancients in any of my lists, so it's not as if I'm trying to break the game or anything. I was just re-reading the codex and the wording of the banner abilities caught me off guard. I also do not have my codex on me to give a direct quote, but please re-read those banner abilities to see what I'm talking about.
Also, this take doesn't apply to the Relic banner. It's not worded in a way that made me think it did anything other than effect models within 6" of the actual banner bearer.
PandatheWarrior wrote: Actually, i think you are right. RAW if you have the banner on the field, every ancient give the aura.
The Sanguinary Ancient starts with "Blood Angels units within 6" of any friendly Blood Angels Ancients add 1 to their Leadership." This is common to all the BA Ancients, so if you are within 6" you get the plus 1 - nothing special as they all have that anyway.
Where they differ is with their second ability. The Company and Primaris Ancients give the 4+ chance for an attack by a model destroyed within 6" of any friendly Blood Angels Ancients. The way it it written does indicate that you would also get this for being within 6" of the other two Ancients that lack this line just by having the Company or Primaris on the field. The Sangunary Ancient extra ability (reroll Wound rolls of 1) is only for units with a model within 6" of this model. The Terminator Ancient additional boon of rerolling hit rolls in th fight phase is also for units within 6" of this model.
So I read it as a mixed bag. In two cases they patch over (the last surge of strength), while in two they don't.
I also checked. It seems like the way to use this would be to have say...the sanguinary ancient with relic banner with his SG buddies and some inceptors getting all the SG banner benefits, and then have a bland company ancient backfield with a firebase, and suddenly you have SG and inceptors firing off shots/attacks as they die in addition.
Hi all I'm looking for some advice on what to equip a squad of 5 jump VV and my 2nd squad of 5 SG with.
For the VV I'm thinking of options that others can't get like Lightning Claws and TH+/SS whilst avoiding chainswords/hand flamers(DC) and power fists/plasma pistol(SG). I'm looking for anyone's thought's on numbers and any special set-up's anyone really favour's. I'm tempted to just go inferno pistol and TH myself to give me some mobile big stuff killers although i do fancy some SS
As for the 2nd squad of SG I'm really tempted to just go all out with 5 PF+PP as it's only buttons to upgrade to PP from AB. Other squad is standard 5 ES+AB. I'm thinking now that maybe 4 PF+PP and 1 ES+AB and split them through the 2 squads might be a better idea. Or think of them as a 10 man unit and have 4 PF+AB and 6 ES+PP then the slightly more important fists won't get blown up before they strike and trim a few point's as well
I'm not set on any particular set-up with either unit. I just can't finalise it in my own mind and would greatly appreciate any and all advice.
Also, am I crazy, or have I just missed again and again that the wording of the banners each of our Ancients carry say that the abilities they grant effect units or models within 6" of Blood Angel Ancients (not just the banner bearer they happen to be near). Meaning, if I had all 3 different banner bearing Ancients on the field at once, the units in effect range of each banner would receive all 3 banner effects even if the Ancients were no where near one another. Am I reading that right?
Yes, if one unit is within 6" of all three ancients it would receive all three banner effects.
Thanks for answers.
Yes, I know that if a unit is with 6" of all 3 ancients it would receive all the banner effects. What I'm pointing out is it appears that the way the banner rules are worded, all 3 banner bearers could be in different corners of the battlefield and if, say, a tactical squad was within 6" of one, it'd receive all 3's banner abilities.
this is the first interpretation I’ve seen like this. To say this seems against the spirit of the rules and has no basis in “rules as intended” is putting it mildly. I’ll have to read my codex when I’m home from work to check “rules as written”, but again, I would think this isn’t possible.
FWIW, I have only ever ran one of the Ancients in any of my lists, so it's not as if I'm trying to break the game or anything. I was just re-reading the codex and the wording of the banner abilities caught me off guard. I also do not have my codex on me to give a direct quote, but please re-read those banner abilities to see what I'm talking about.
Also, this take doesn't apply to the Relic banner. It's not worded in a way that made me think it did anything other than effect models within 6" of the actual banner bearer.
No worries about defending yourself, I’m sorry if I came across as accusatory. I do see what you mean though; the terminator and sanguinary Guard ancients specify being within 6” of them for their unique abilities, while the company and Primaris ancients spec “any ancient”. So RAW I’d say you’re right. When is our FAQ out? Lol. I’m really hoping our FAQ shows Lucifer Engines aren’t mostly useless.
Bremon wrote: When is our FAQ out? Lol. I’m really hoping our FAQ shows Lucifer Engines aren’t mostly useless.
and brings the cost of our preds in line with the marine book as it seems like an error.
I am not holding my breath on either. LPE should just give a straight increase to movement at the cost of not being able to Advance that turn (who would anyway?!), but I could see GW being moronic as usual and think it is somehow this great bonus.
They need to give the Baal Predator a rule that lets it fire heavy weapons after advancing. Otherwise it will still be outclassed by Dakka Inceptors.
Bremon wrote: When is our FAQ out? Lol. I’m really hoping our FAQ shows Lucifer Engines aren’t mostly useless.
and brings the cost of our preds in line with the marine book as it seems like an error.
I am not holding my breath on either. LPE should just give a straight increase to movement at the cost of not being able to Advance that turn (who would anyway?!), but I could see GW being moronic as usual and think it is somehow this great bonus.
They need to give the Baal Predator a rule that lets it fire heavy weapons after advancing. Otherwise it will still be outclassed by Dakka Inceptors.
i agree LPE needs to be a movement bonus, or Baal Preds buffed. I also never made the comparison to inceptors before, which doesn’t favour the Baal Pred at all. Yikes. Fingers crossed that the FAQ clarifies Killshot for Baal Preds or my BP’s will be Razorbacks for the foreseeable future. So glad I magnetized lol.
Thanks to bobba, Martel and p5Freak for the advice! He can borrow from the Rock to try some options out (Azrael is feeling indulgent). He does well with the Vanguard Vets (my old V2 Dark Angels Assault Marines), so we'll kitbash a Stormshield armed one for them. He's looking at either swapping the Terminators for a Predator to give some more firepower and something to draw fire, or dropping the Stormraven and adding a Drop Pod, Razorback and Rhino.
Martel732 wrote: Killshot will be allowed for Baal preds almost assuredly. ITC already does it and GW has it in print somewhere.
That and if LPE is just a movement bonus would actually meant Baal Predators might be able to do their job. Too bad it cost 2 CP to do it(so does everything else we want to do...).
The +1 to the roll who goes first only applies to the missions in CA, or if you house rule it, or the TO rules it. The matched play rule that the player who finished deploying first has first turn is still valid.
I play primarily ITC. Also, I believe the CA rule replaces the matched play rule for all matched play. But I'm not certain. At any rate, I'm not playing matches with the old rule and I would recommend others do the same. It's too extreme. Just as I don't play matches without the beta smite rule.
Martel732 wrote: It's only huge if you are relying on alpha strike. It takes multiple turns to cut through screens anyway, so plan on the long haul.
It's also only a +1 to the roll. I'd much rather have more units to work with. And you'll still probably get the +1 vs IG.
my problem with the brigade and how you described it, is that it doesn't really sound like much of a Blood Angels army. I have other Space Marine armies if I want to pull crap like that, I play Blood Angels for fast tanks and jump pack Marines tearing up the battlefield. And my defensive armies (Crimson Fists, Ad Me) is contrasted well by my aggressive army (Blood Angels).
I do need to investigate better uses of my points than two Repulsors. I really wish we would get our FAQ/errata so I can figure out if I want to run some Baal Predators.
The brigade can have as many bolt-on murder elements as you want.
Heavy bolter attack bikes sound very BA.
5 man reivers? Super BA Whirlwinds? Kinda meh, fluff-wise. But they are super handy for clearing out a place to descent of angels, since horde armies can easily turn off our deep strike options. The codex explicitly says that the BA see the value of artillery, though.
Remember your 6 troops could all be hand to hand scouts, too.
Brigade keeps the character tax low, too. Although I know BA have a tendency to be character-heavy.
I have to agree with Martel on this one. “Pull crap like that”? Pull crap like being codex compliant? Every option in the BA book is part of a BA army. Attack bikes don’t seem particularly effective but I still like the models. I like our unique units being the icing on a codex compliant cake; not just a gimmick army that has 5 unique units to choose from. Different strokes! I don’t think I can swing a brigade though; the new book has me leaning on double Battalion and larger units to maximize stratagem effectiveness.
Yeah, I am with Martel as well. I can't remember who it was in the last thread that I got into a debate with about how some units "aren't Blood Angel enough" or some crap, but anything in the Codex IS a Blood Angel entry and we shouldn't be afraid to use it.
I have been faring well with my double Battalion army, I only have a few post-Codex games with it, but it currently goes undefeated in 1v1 games. It gives me plenty of options with Strategems, I won first turn in my last two games and in the first one my opponent conceded after my Turn 1 and in the second they conceded at the end of my Turn 3 (he was going to concede Turn 2 but played ot out for one more turn).
Even though my army isn't super competitive, the Strategems and The Red Thirst do wonders for our army. In my first game I blew all 9 Command Points on the first turn to make sure my powers went off, gave the Dread the reroll of 1 aura (makes it so I don't need a Captain), forced big damage rolls, gave the JP Libby extra attacks, allowed my Vanguard Vets to multi- charge a slew of units 3d6" and let them fight twice. It was one of the most brutal turns my armt has ever pulled off.
Yeh BA are a codex compliant army and more of that i am a bit dissapointed that we have nothing particular on scouts and pilots wich are an important part of the fluff. Rly a missed opportunity.
On another subject, into pure optimisation, a detachement of 3 eversor (2+1 cadillus might be solid too) and an inquisitor bring 1 cp and efficient chaff removal + 2 usefull powers: no overwatch and no fear.
Well, once we had a codex which allowed BA units/models an extra move on 6+.
Lots of vanilla choices in the BA codex. Not worth considering for a fluffy BA army.
Voidwraith wrote: Apparently, if your not just hitting people in the face with melee weapons until you lose, you're not playing BA correctly.
Indeed, the signature units of BA like DG and SG are strongly melee centered and the new codex provides some ways to get there.
But 40k is more a shooting game these days and important units or models are bubble wrapped making it hard to charge them.
It’s a balancing act.
I'm a Dark Angel so I am OK with gunlines to start with, but Sergeant Traviola of the Blood Angels 2nd Company wrote in the Heavy Support section of the new Codex that "Though I long for the heady days of the blade as much as any of my brothers, command of such overwhelming firepower offers a satisfaction all of its own." So he's OK with a shooty Blood Angels force, and he's a real Blood Angel!
Bartali wrote: The problem with a shooty BA force is that they don't get the bonuses to it that other chapters do.
Nothing to stop you running it, but other marine chapters do it better
Yeah, for me it isn't so much that other chapters do it better, it's more that I don't feel I'm taking enough advantage of Red Thirst (which could be excellent) and some of the better stratagems available to us.
Before the Codex release I was having fun with a gunline of a plasma Dev squad, a MLDev squad, a Deredeo and 2 Lascannon Mortis Dreds. That gunline also comprises a lot of my better painted models.... which was nice.
Now, since the codex, I feel like I should be taking all my old Assault Squads again, which I've never really managed to use very effectively.... and they're my least well painted models... which irritates.
Bartali wrote: The problem with a shooty BA force is that they don't get the bonuses to it that other chapters do.
Nothing to stop you running it, but other marine chapters do it better
our combat elements are better than other chapters, but 40k leans towards shooting. BA as a codex compliant force with a strong shooting element, with large unique units deep striking is optimal for us, imo. A standard marine list with 15 DC or 10 SG, and a small unit of VV or two to maximize stratagem shenanigans is how I think BA play best. Pure melee is the path to damnation when your enemies can touch you from 48” and you can only touch them back at 1”.
Bartali wrote: The problem with a shooty BA force is that they don't get the bonuses to it that other chapters do.
Nothing to stop you running it, but other marine chapters do it better
Yeah, for me it isn't so much that other chapters do it better, it's more that I don't feel I'm taking enough advantage of Red Thirst (which could be excellent) and some of the better stratagems available to us.
Before the Codex release I was having fun with a gunline of a plasma Dev squad, a MLDev squad, a Deredeo and 2 Lascannon Mortis Dreds. That gunline also comprises a lot of my better painted models.... which was nice.
Now, since the codex, I feel like I should be taking all my old Assault Squads again, which I've never really managed to use very effectively.... and they're my least well painted models... which irritates.
Ultramarines don’t need every unit falling back and shooting to win. Raven Guard don’t need to infiltrate every unit to win. Chapter Tactics are another tool in the toolbox, make your support units more threatening to the crappy type of harrier units that usually try to deal with units in an enemy’s backfield (of which marine Assault Squads are one). If you focus on jump packs, and melee domination you run out of CP too quickly. With shooting elements you can use your CP to adequately buff the unique assault elements we do have. My 2 cents anyway. I do intend to buy two boxes of assault squads though; magnets to experiment with deepstrike 3 melta, or plasma, etc.
Bartali wrote: The problem with a shooty BA force is that they don't get the bonuses to it that other chapters do.
Nothing to stop you running it, but other marine chapters do it better
our combat elements are better than other chapters, but 40k leans towards shooting. BA as a codex compliant force with a strong shooting element, with large unique units deep striking is optimal for us, imo. A standard marine list with 15 DC or 10 SG, and a small unit of VV or two to maximize stratagem shenanigans is how I think BA play best. Pure melee is the path to damnation when your enemies can touch you from 48” and you can only touch them back at 1”.
GW allows you to alpha strike your entire army if you're shooting. Not so much if you want to punch something.
Thats what i meant. Melee alpha strike turn 1.
Melee alpha strike works for you? Interesting.
I disagree BA in a Casual list can be all infantry alpha and function but against a competative list they need to be the tertiary detatchment supported by another detatchments brigade.
Bartali wrote: The problem with a shooty BA force is that they don't get the bonuses to it that other chapters do.
Nothing to stop you running it, but other marine chapters do it better
%100 agree. This is why running BA as a gunline is really just gimping yourself. Your not taking advantage of your tools and one of our best, if not the best tool, is red thirst. It's incredibly powerful, so to just shoot and ignore it would be folly imo, just as running nothing but CC also is not best. Running some shooty elements along side your CC elements is fine. I, personally, like running more CC than shooting but YMMV.
Shooting is never gimping yourself. Knocking out a couple key enemy units with lascannons is worth 3-4 melee units as you save yourself all those casualties.
Martel732 wrote: Shooting is never gimping yourself. Knocking out a couple key enemy units with lascannons is worth 3-4 melee units as you save yourself all those casualties.
Its not shooting thats gimping its having BA units shoot when you could take a BA detatchment and a 2nd detatchment of SM/guard and have that do the shooting only better.
Martel732 wrote: I play primarily ITC. Also, I believe the CA rule replaces the matched play rule for all matched play. But I'm not certain.
The updated matched play rules of CA dont say anything about the +1 to go first.
Yeah, I guess that's true. Nevertheless, I'm never going to plan around the old method, as every tournament I've heard of uses the +1 method.
I don't have the book in front of me, but if you go to the Warhammer Community page, the rule is there with an image that makes it look like it's listed under a FIRST TURN heading somewhere in the book. Unsure where.
Voidwraith wrote: Apparently, if your not just hitting people in the face with melee weapons until you lose, you're not playing BA correctly.
Well, if you manage to get first turn, and alpha strike (almost) your entire army (which is possible), you pretty much have won the game.
I'm not sure this is true, either. BA can't chop through 150 guardsmen effectively.
Yeah...seems like a lot of BA batreps have the BA player successfully pull off a melee alpha strike and then go on to lose the game. It appears Jump packs and Red Thirst aren't autowin, even with our cool new strats.
Melee alpha strikes are still hitting what your opponent wants you to. That's why they don't work very often. In my case, you'd be hitting my scouts. Okay... you killed my scouts extra dead.
Martel732 wrote: Melee alpha strikes are still hitting what your opponent wants you to. That's why they don't work very often. In my case, you'd be hitting my scouts. Okay... you killed my scouts extra dead.
In the games I've been playing I've been dropping inceptors in to clear chaff units to then push through with my strong melee units. I also deploy my own scouts reasonably early to stop my opponent putting their own 'infiltrator' esk unit in the way, it doesn't work so well during the deep deployment types but it helps with the shallow ones 12" ones.
I feel like BA codex has alot of traps one can easily fall into while making a list. Then everything fall down in play if something doesn't go your way.
Martel732 wrote: Melee alpha strikes are still hitting what your opponent wants you to. That's why they don't work very often. In my case, you'd be hitting my scouts. Okay... you killed my scouts extra dead.
Yeah, I've only gotten one game in with the new codex, but all of my list ideas have a 1st turn SHOOTING element that drops in (Drop pod of Sternguard, Jump pack Plasma Vets, Inceptors, etc) alongside my buffing characters (The Sanguinor, Sanguinary Ancient w/ relic banner (or Company Ancient), Jump pack Librarian) with the idea of damaging a flank so my 2nd turn can see the Sanguinary Guard or Death Company drop in and hit something that matters. Also, my buffing characters will be in better position to actually buff the melee unit without having to make a difficult charge.
I really haven't been giving too much thought to using Death Company at all, but last night I was making a Death Company centric list and realized that 15 JPDC, all of which wielding Power Swords, is 360pts of amazeballz. With the Red Thirst, power swords are great, and with that many attacks, you don't really need Thunder Hammers. I'm gonna force myself to playtest that a few times...
I really haven't been giving too much thought to using Death Company at all, but last night I was making a Death Company centric list and realized that 15 JPDC, all of which wielding Power Swords, is 360pts of amazeballz. With the Red Thirst, power swords are great, and with that many attacks, you don't really need Thunder Hammers. I'm gonna force myself to playtest that a few times...
Price wise it's the same but in term of loss of dps you better off hiding 2 TH than all having PS.
I really haven't been giving too much thought to using Death Company at all, but last night I was making a Death Company centric list and realized that 15 JPDC, all of which wielding Power Swords, is 360pts of amazeballz. With the Red Thirst, power swords are great, and with that many attacks, you don't really need Thunder Hammers. I'm gonna force myself to playtest that a few times...
Price wise it's the same but in term of loss of dps you better off hiding 2 TH than all having PS.
I started down that road as well, but like the idea of good damage production being spread out across the squad if I'd like to do something other than super-kill one model on the turn they charge. If I'd like to tie up 3 units AND do something other than hack at 2 of them with chainswords, I feel the cheap, yet efficient Power Sword option is the way to go.
Obviously, real life experience will tell me if that's BS or not...
It's very possible that I just need to find the points for 1 or 2 Thunderhammers for my squad of Death Company no matter what I plan to do with the rest. It's not as if I don't like Thunderhammers.
Voidwraith wrote: It's very possible that I just need to find the points for 1 or 2 Thunderhammers for my squad of Death Company no matter what I plan to do with the rest. It's not as if I don't like Thunderhammers.
While there is a bit of a random element to it, for 4 points less, you can go with a power fist that is 1d3 and a boltgun. This is the ultimate in flexibility. Shoot one thing and charge another.
I wouldn't give them all power weapons, just no need for it. Your going to take casualties whether it's from overwatch or after you wipe a squad and your just going to pay for some of those swords for nothing. Just leave half of them with base gear so when you take casualties, you pull those guys. Also I agree with Martel on this point, you should always toss in a TH or 2 to give them some versatility.
I typically run a pair of 10 man DC squads with 1 thunder hammer and 2 axes per squad. Works very well and can take on just about anything.
Martel732 wrote: Shooting is never gimping yourself. Knocking out a couple key enemy units with lascannons is worth 3-4 melee units as you save yourself all those casualties.
I strongly disagree with this. I realize 40k, sadly, still gives shooting armies the edge but If your fighting a gunline army that has rules/abilities that gives their shooting the edge, your certainly gimping yourself by attempting to out shoot a dedicated shooting army when your rules/abilities benefit your units in CC. It's like in UFC when a grappler tries to box with a striker, it never ends well for the grappler. Fight to your strengths, not your opponents.
I think most people are missing the point being made about shooting. You don't make a 100% shooting list. You also don't make a 100% CC list. Both will get destroyed pretty handily. You make a list that has a nice combination of both.
First round CC alpha strikes with BA generally don't go over well because you can't really ensure multiple units getting into CC effectively with the units they want to. A heavy shooting round 1 presence will ensure a much more reliable turn 2 charge while not gimping yourself on effectiveness either way.
I'm seeing a huge problem where people in batreps are going almost all CC and getting slaughtered. The Red Thirst is nice but it's not a crutch to rely on. Even with shooty units like Hellblasters, it starts to lessen their weaknesses (CC). Inevitably, armies who aren't gunline specific will want to get into CC with shooty units to tie them up.
I'm pretty sure a BA army with a good mixed combination of shooting and CC heading down the board en masse would be a good strat. The BA codex won't win you grand tournaments more-than-likely, but it is more than capable of producing a winning formula if you don't hamstring yourself.
I think some BA shooty list could be extremly dangerous. They are more potent to squash blobs of tying units with +1 to wound and big brawler charachters. Add to this some strong stratagem to conduct strike onto your ennemy weak spots.
Roughly something like cpt/lt/priest/banner + 20 hellblaster blob+ scouts to screen. Squad of SG in backup. That's 1250 ish. 40 plasma shots+ screen+hard to shift.
Blood thirst add a real counter charge potential and make your charachters real killers.
PandatheWarrior wrote: I think some BA shooty list could be extremly dangerous. They are more potent to squash blobs of tying units with +1 to wound and big brawler charachters. Add to this some strong stratagem to conduct strike onto your ennemy weak spots.
Roughly something like cpt/lt/priest/banner + 20 hellblaster blob+ scouts to screen. Squad of SG in backup. That's 1250 ish. 40 plasma shots+ screen+hard to shift.
Blood thirst add a real counter charge potential and make your charachters real killers.
I don't know if I'd invest that much into ranged specific units. They are good, yes, but I think it's relying too much on your Hellblasters to do a majority of your lifting. I like Hellblasters in BA but I think they are good in smaller groups. Then you can shift your points around into other units. Bolter Inceptors and Biker Scouts are money in this codex. A large weight of fire and good CC capabilities, albeit the Inceptors are more armor smashing for their melee and scouts are more chaff clearing. I could easily see dropping Inceptors in on someone, running bolters into a group of infantry and charging a tank or monster. They also work well to drop in a backline JUST in LOS of a rear support unit to blow them away then Wings of Fire and drop somewhere else on the opposite side of the enemy when the enemy shifts forces to react.
Volume of dice is so critical to BA with this edition and codex. They have the ability to throw out so many dice that you can math people to death. You still need units like Hellblasters or other AP reducing firepower, but you can scrap most units under weight of dice. Units that do shooting and CC well like the mentioned Scout Bikes and Inceptors are probably going to be some of the hidden gems I feel. They are a lot harder to manage since they are multi-tool units. A lot of it still goes into common sense playing and experience. I just watched another batrep where the BA player dropped some Vanguard down and charged into the enemy army by themselves. Then he seemed surprised that he was wiped next round. CC alpha strikes are so hard to pull off consistently that a delayed charge seems like the best route. Sure, you get those games where you obliterate the enemy turn 1, but I haven't seen it a consistent success.
I agree. Going pure or even more than 50% straight melee is an absolute trap.
I have only been using one big squad of guys with Jump Packs, and a few supporting characters, but a lot of the heavy lifting is done by my shooting elements. My Missile Devs, Twin-Last/CCW Dreads and Razorback tackle the big stuff for me.
My 6 Tac Squads are mainly Plasma shooters, but no slouches in melee after a couple turns of mid range shooting. Even my Rhinos end up a lot in melee as stalling tactics to allow me to take out big targets. Red Thirst is good, but most of my games are won by shooting. My Vanguard Vets (now Death Company) are mainly used to shred the opponents infantry and give them a distraction they can't ignore to keep the rest of my army safe. They are the best JP Libby & Mephiston delivery system I could ask for haha.
Stop thinking only mono BA. The Imperium has so much to offer. Why not cherry pick ? If you want to use plasma pick DA, they can reroll 1s when they didn't move, it's their chapter tactic. They have a stratagem which increases plasma damage by 1. Imagine 10 hellblasters not moving, overcharging, rerolling 1s without captain, 3 damage per wound. Use BA for melee. AM has the best tanks. Knight commander pask is insanely good, best tank in the imperium. Ratlings are the best snipers. Cheap psykers can help keeping them alive.
p5freak wrote: Stop thinking only mono BA. The Imperium has so much to offer. Why not cherry pick ? If you want to use plasma pick DA, they can reroll 1s when they didn't move, it's their chapter tactic. They have a stratagem which increases plasma damage by 1. Imagine 10 hellblasters not moving, overcharging, rerolling 1s without captain, 3 damage per wound. Use BA for melee. AM has the best tanks. Knight commander pask is insanely good, best tank in the imperium. Ratlings are the best snipers. Cheap psykers can help keeping them alive.
Some people prefer building a single army from one codex, not imperial flavor of the month soup.
NH Gunsmith wrote: I agree. Going pure or even more than 50% straight melee is an absolute trap.
I have only been using one big squad of guys with Jump Packs, and a few supporting characters, but a lot of the heavy lifting is done by my shooting elements. My Missile Devs, Twin-Last/CCW Dreads and Razorback tackle the big stuff for me.
My 6 Tac Squads are mainly Plasma shooters, but no slouches in melee after a couple turns of mid range shooting. Even my Rhinos end up a lot in melee as stalling tactics to allow me to take out big targets. Red Thirst is good, but most of my games are won by shooting. My Vanguard Vets (now Death Company) are mainly used to shred the opponents infantry and give them a distraction they can't ignore to keep the rest of my army safe. They are the best JP Libby & Mephiston delivery system I could ask for haha.
I'd prefer a division of an army into 40% shooting vs. tanks/monsters, 40% handling infantry, and 20% special forces like infiltrators and objective sitters.
p5freak wrote: Stop thinking only mono BA. The Imperium has so much to offer. Why not cherry pick ? If you want to use plasma pick DA, they can reroll 1s when they didn't move, it's their chapter tactic. They have a stratagem which increases plasma damage by 1. Imagine 10 hellblasters not moving, overcharging, rerolling 1s without captain, 3 damage per wound. Use BA for melee. AM has the best tanks. Knight commander pask is insanely good, best tank in the imperium. Ratlings are the best snipers. Cheap psykers can help keeping them alive.
Some people prefer building a single army from one codex, not imperial flavor of the month soup.
Just saying.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Then some people are not playing tactically and will lose regularly. 40k has not been mono faction for multiple editions - adapt- or go back to the BA glory days of bygone editions but for 8th tactics BA is a great soup element but it is never optimised at shooting which the others are all telling you are needed.
p5freak wrote: Stop thinking only mono BA. The Imperium has so much to offer. Why not cherry pick ? If you want to use plasma pick DA, they can reroll 1s when they didn't move, it's their chapter tactic. They have a stratagem which increases plasma damage by 1. Imagine 10 hellblasters not moving, overcharging, rerolling 1s without captain, 3 damage per wound. Use BA for melee. AM has the best tanks. Knight commander pask is insanely good, best tank in the imperium. Ratlings are the best snipers. Cheap psykers can help keeping them alive.
Some people prefer building a single army from one codex, not imperial flavor of the month soup.
Just saying.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Then some people are not playing tactically and will lose regularly. 40k has not been mono faction for multiple editions - adapt- or go back to the BA glory days of bygone editions but for 8th tactics BA is a great soup element but it is never optimised at shooting which the others are all telling you are needed.
Hate to break it to you bud, but you're in the Blood Angels tactics thread, in case you didn't notice.
If you want to talk about Imperial Soup tactics and how Blood Angels fit ito it, then kindly go start an imperial soup tactics thread and discuss it there, please.
That way those of us who want to discuss Blood Angels tactics in the Blood Angels tactics thread can do so in peace without your superfluous additions that have nothing to do with the actual discussion; Tactics for Blood Angels.
Well, its legitimate to combine detachments from different SM chapters into a single army.
I think if this army contains BA detachments, it should be possible to discuss this in the thread here.
Its what BA look like now they are not an effective mono faction army.
This is a tactics thread placing artificial restrictions on yourself because you prefer mono lists is the opposite of good strategy. (Note mono lists aren't always bad tactically eg AM but in BA case they are)
It could just as easily be said go create a mono BA thread for narrative/fluff and leave the tactics thread for those who want to include BA in there comp armys
Yeh you can discuss soup in a super competitive environnement. But saying it's that or nothing make no sense since some of us play against orks or space wolves and would like to have balanced games.
Can scout bikers shoot their twin boltguns and the shotgun (within range ofc).. for 6 str4 shots? I know pistols are a pistols or any other weapon..
Also, soup & other detachments wise... how does it work. What is the limitation (as I have a similiar question about a Death Guard army using Choas Space Marine units).
So can I have a BA force (fielded within a detachment, right?) along with a IG/AM Scions or Ultramarines force? What allows me to do this or/and what would I be disallowed to do?
U02dah4 wrote: Its what BA look like now they are not an effective mono faction army.
This is a tactics thread placing artificial restrictions on yourself because you prefer mono lists is the opposite of good strategy. (Note mono lists aren't always bad tactically eg AM but in BA case they are)
It could just as easily be said go create a mono BA thread for narrative/fluff and leave the tactics thread for those who want to include BA in there comp armys
I'm trying to figure out why you think BA are not effective as a mono build army. So effectiveness is essentially grand tournament winning effectiveness and only that? I'm sorry but this is absolutely terrible advice. BA are nowhere near the bottom of the power scale. They are not in such a bad place that they are not "effective" without souping. If you are looking to compete at the absolutely top tables in tournaments, there will only ever be a handful of builds that will squeak by as the best of the best. Otherwise, BA have more than enough tools to be competitive in their own rights. Otherwise 90% of the armies out there are "not effective".
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Razerous wrote: Can scout bikers shoot their twin boltguns and the shotgun (within range ofc).. for 6 str4 shots? I know pistols are a pistols or any other weapon..
Also, soup & other detachments wise... how does it work. What is the limitation (as I have a similiar question about a Death Guard army using Choas Space Marine units).
So can I have a BA force (fielded within a detachment, right?) along with a IG/AM Scions or Ultramarines force? What allows me to do this or/and what would I be disallowed to do?
Yes, scouts can shoot all non-pistol weapons.
Limitations for detachments only require they share a common faction keyword to still be battle forged.
Yes you can have a BA force with IG as they both share the Imperium keyword. You would just need to keep them in separate detachments unless you don't care to lose the special abilities (i.e. Red Thirst).
U02dah4 wrote: Its what BA look like now they are not an effective mono faction army.
This is a tactics thread placing artificial restrictions on yourself because you prefer mono lists is the opposite of good strategy. (Note mono lists aren't always bad tactically eg AM but in BA case they are)
It could just as easily be said go create a mono BA thread for narrative/fluff and leave the tactics thread for those who want to include BA in there comp armys
I'm trying to figure out why you think BA are not effective as a mono build army. So effectiveness is essentially grand tournament winning effectiveness and only that? I'm sorry but this is absolutely terrible advice. BA are nowhere near the bottom of the power scale. They are not in such a bad place that they are not "effective" without souping. If you are looking to compete at the absolutely top tables in tournaments, there will only ever be a handful of builds that will squeak by as the best of the best. Otherwise, BA have more than enough tools to be competitive in their own rights. Otherwise 90% of the armies out there are "not effective".
Because as many people have already explained pure CC doesnt work as you get stuck in a screen then get shot to bits. So you want a mix of CC and shooting (exact proportions debateable). However when it comes to shooting BA are disadvantaged in comparison to armies that get a shooting bonus. Eg. Taking a 2nd detatchment of Salamanders Devastators would be better than takeing BA ones. So you have the same tools as others but they get a relevant buff and you dont.
In addition BA want multiple detatchments as they are very CP intensive to make thee CP work chances are you want more than one anyway
So can I have a BA force (fielded within a detachment, right?) along with a IG/AM Scions or Ultramarines force? What allows me to do this or/and what would I be disallowed to do?
You can mix Admech with AM, BA, DA, whatever SM chapter there is. They all share the IMPERIUM keyword, they can be in one army. You can even mix them in one detachment, but you wont benefit from chapter tactics/regiment/forgeworld. Only if every detachment is pure you get to use their chapter tactics/regiment/forgeworld. You can have a batallion of AM, a vanguard detachment of BA and an outrider detachment of DA, for example. You will have access to all stratagems from all factions to use on your entire army, sounds nice, but in practice is useless, because BA stratagems cannot be used on DA, they require BA units. You will also get +5 CP.
U02dah4 wrote: Its what BA look like now they are not an effective mono faction army.
This is a tactics thread placing artificial restrictions on yourself because you prefer mono lists is the opposite of good strategy. (Note mono lists aren't always bad tactically eg AM but in BA case they are)
It could just as easily be said go create a mono BA thread for narrative/fluff and leave the tactics thread for those who want to include BA in there comp armys
I'm trying to figure out why you think BA are not effective as a mono build army. So effectiveness is essentially grand tournament winning effectiveness and only that? I'm sorry but this is absolutely terrible advice. BA are nowhere near the bottom of the power scale. They are not in such a bad place that they are not "effective" without souping. If you are looking to compete at the absolutely top tables in tournaments, there will only ever be a handful of builds that will squeak by as the best of the best. Otherwise, BA have more than enough tools to be competitive in their own rights. Otherwise 90% of the armies out there are "not effective".
The misuse of words like "effective" and "viable" in these threads irritates me a bit as well.
The single biggest thing ba get from souping is screening ability. I don't ba firepower is that much worse than any other chapter save imperial fists and bobby g.
So can I have a BA force (fielded within a detachment, right?) along with a IG/AM Scions or Ultramarines force? What allows me to do this or/and what would I be disallowed to do?
You can mix Admech with AM, BA, DA, whatever SM chapter there is. They all share the IMPERIUM keyword, they can be in one army. You can even mix them in one detachment, but you wont benefit from chapter tactics/regiment/forgeworld. Only if every detachment is pure you get to use their chapter tactics/regiment/forgeworld. You can have a batallion of AM, a vanguard detachment of BA and an outrider detachment of DA, for example. You will have access to all stratagems from all factions to use on your entire army, sounds nice, but in practice is useless, because BA stratagems cannot be used on DA, they require BA units. You will also get +5 CP.
It's not useless at all. There are quite a few stratagems that only affect certain units or types of units. For example: If I wanted to run an Angels army of Blood Angels and Dark Angels, I could run the smash-you-in-your-face units as Blood Angels and ranged powerhouses like Plasma Inceptors and Hellblasters as Dark Angels. The only stratagem I'd really care for on the Dark Angels side is most likely the added damage to the plasma weapons. The Dark Angel trait also blends perfectly with overcharging plasma without needing a Captain.
People realistically only rely on three or four stratagems for their army setup and list build. Just look at stratagems you like and build a list to cater to that. I don't care about things like Kill Shot or Line Breaker if I have no tanks. But if I do, practically every other stratagem is useless for those units.
U02dah4 wrote: Its what BA look like now they are not an effective mono faction army.
This is a tactics thread placing artificial restrictions on yourself because you prefer mono lists is the opposite of good strategy. (Note mono lists aren't always bad tactically eg AM but in BA case they are)
It could just as easily be said go create a mono BA thread for narrative/fluff and leave the tactics thread for those who want to include BA in there comp armys
I'm trying to figure out why you think BA are not effective as a mono build army. So effectiveness is essentially grand tournament winning effectiveness and only that? I'm sorry but this is absolutely terrible advice. BA are nowhere near the bottom of the power scale. They are not in such a bad place that they are not "effective" without souping. If you are looking to compete at the absolutely top tables in tournaments, there will only ever be a handful of builds that will squeak by as the best of the best. Otherwise, BA have more than enough tools to be competitive in their own rights. Otherwise 90% of the armies out there are "not effective".
The misuse of words like "effective" and "viable" in these threads irritates me a bit as well.
Agreed. I never said BA were top tier and actually feel they are right around the middle, which is a great spot. Effectiveness does not equate to top tier. All of your middle of the road armies are all effective. They just aren't going to win tons of tournaments. That's how it's always been and always will be. It's the reality of competitive gaming with lots of different army choices. Overall, the balance is pretty good in 8th. BA are effective. You aren't going to auto win games based solely on the lists you build but you won't auto lose them that way either. A win feels earned. It's how it should be.
effective
adjective
1.successful in producing a desired or intended result.
Assuming beating your opponent is the desired aim of a tactics thread
Then to be effective you must maximise your odds of winning.
The good thing is in this edition there is no mono faction requirement (except imperium) so if it is more effective to be mono then be mono if it is more effective to pinch the best bits of several factions its about what BA do better than others and as stated by many BA fights well but is CP expensive and shoots poorly
I like how you conveniently left out portions of the definition. Let me rehash that for some clarity off of dictionary.com:
"adequate to accomplish a purpose; producing the intended or expected result:"
You left out the "adequate" portion because it was counterintuitive to your own argument. BA are adequate. They do produce the desired result. You will win games with BA. Under your same logic, Astra Militarum aren't effective because they don't win every game. Therein lies your misinterpretation of the word. You can have armies that are more or less effective. Being effective means you simply won't lose every game, and with BA you won't. Sure you can min max everything. Under that idea, the game becomes extremely dull to most people because 90% of the units in the game are "ineffective" just because they aren't the maximum efficiency. If you want to play a min max game where all you take are the detachments and units that are the absolute most efficient, then you can. But don't sit here and tell other people that things aren't good solely on the fact that they aren't the absolute most efficient. Again, under that idea, practically anything but Magnus, Mortarion, and Astra Militarum are ineffective. Those are dominating the scenes pretty handily.
Umm... actually there are a lot of good units that are not the MOST efficient. Are you saying practically every SM army without Bobby G is ineffective? They are less efficient therefore in your eyes they are not good. I haven't seen a single SM army hit the top tables without good ole Bobby. I guess he's a requirement for you?
Soup is completely antithetical to my approach to the game and what I enjoy about the game, so I’m glad there are some people in this thread who have answers to tactics questions beyond “take AM”. I play BA. Not Imperium. BA.
This thread has valuable discussion for players like me who want to maximize the effectiveness of their vampire marines in red power armour without deviating from that red power armour. It’s quite tiresome reading about Imperial soup though. At this point I’d enjoy if there was a Tactica: Imperial Soup” for the cherry pickers to congregate.
Hoodwink wrote: Umm... actually there are a lot of good units that are not the MOST efficient. Are you saying practically every SM army without Bobby G is ineffective? They are less efficient therefore in your eyes they are not good. I haven't seen a single SM army hit the top tables without good ole Bobby. I guess he's a requirement for you?
Some things are clearly better than others Salamanders are better at shooting than BA absolutely.
Some things are debateable and bobby G is very good in certain builds but other SM builds built to there advantages can also be very good and there is clear room for debate but most certainly require a different build to win. If they can be shown to better at there roll or work within a soup better than bobby G then great.
Essentially there isn't one single way to win but there are certainly things that are objectively worse than others.
As someone who reads this thread and who likes a bit of soup once in a while (Sisters, Imperial Guard) and who is toying around with adding some Red Marine(TM) chunks to my occasional bowl, I find the "use some unit other than BA" arguments pretty pointless.
This thread is useful for discussing and understanding the potential BA elements. People who care about AM shooting for example (and I do), can probably get better info about it in the AM threads.
Bremon wrote: Soup is completely antithetical to my approach to the game and what I enjoy about the game, so I’m glad there are some people in this thread who have answers to tactics questions beyond “take AM”. I play BA. Not Imperium. BA.
This thread has valuable discussion for players like me who want to maximize the effectiveness of their vampire marines in red power armour without deviating from that red power armour. It’s quite tiresome reading about Imperial soup though. At this point I’d enjoy if there was a Tactica: Imperial Soup” for the cherry pickers to congregate.
Bremon wrote: Soup is completely antithetical to my approach to the game and what I enjoy about the game, so I’m glad there are some people in this thread who have answers to tactics questions beyond “take AM”. I play BA. Not Imperium. BA.
This thread has valuable discussion for players like me who want to maximize the effectiveness of their vampire marines in red power armour without deviating from that red power armour. It’s quite tiresome reading about Imperial soup though. At this point I’d enjoy if there was a Tactica: Imperial Soup” for the cherry pickers to congregate.
You just have to scheme around having crappy screens. But ba shoot and punch very well.
Bremon wrote: Soup is completely antithetical to my approach to the game and what I enjoy about the game, so I’m glad there are some people in this thread who have answers to tactics questions beyond “take AM”. I play BA. Not Imperium. BA.
This thread has valuable discussion for players like me who want to maximize the effectiveness of their vampire marines in red power armour without deviating from that red power armour. It’s quite tiresome reading about Imperial soup though. At this point I’d enjoy if there was a Tactica: Imperial Soup” for the cherry pickers to congregate.
Exactly. I don't play soup armies either. I play Blood Angels and Crimson Fists. Separately. And for different reasons.
I am looking at my BA army to add some long range shooting.
Bremon wrote: Soup is completely antithetical to my approach to the game and what I enjoy about the game, so I’m glad there are some people in this thread who have answers to tactics questions beyond “take AM”. I play BA. Not Imperium. BA.
This thread has valuable discussion for players like me who want to maximize the effectiveness of their vampire marines in red power armour without deviating from that red power armour. It’s quite tiresome reading about Imperial soup though. At this point I’d enjoy if there was a Tactica: Imperial Soup” for the cherry pickers to congregate.
You can't maximize the effectiveness of your BA without help from other factions. You can increase it, but not push it to the top. Because other factions are better at certain things. You can't maximize CP effectiveness without AM. BA are very CP hungry. With AM help its possible to get 3 CP when you spend 1CP and your opponent as well.
Bremon wrote: Soup is completely antithetical to my approach to the game and what I enjoy about the game, so I’m glad there are some people in this thread who have answers to tactics questions beyond “take AM”. I play BA. Not Imperium. BA.
This thread has valuable discussion for players like me who want to maximize the effectiveness of their vampire marines in red power armour without deviating from that red power armour. It’s quite tiresome reading about Imperial soup though. At this point I’d enjoy if there was a Tactica: Imperial Soup” for the cherry pickers to congregate.
You can't maximize the effectiveness of your BA without help from other factions. You can increase it, but not push it to the top. Because other factions are better at certain things. You can't maximize CP effectiveness without AM. BA are very CP hungry. With AM help its possible to get 3 CP when you spend 1CP and your opponent as well.
U02dah4 wrote: Yes Maximiseing the effectiveness is what you want
Two things;
1. You're assuming this is what I want. You assumed earlier that effective means "beating your opponent". Maybe effective means capable of performing a role, capable of competing a game of 40k?
2. Maybe I do want to "maximise effectiveness".... within a Blood Angels army. Seeing as this is a Blood Angels tactics thread, not (as has pointed out many times) an Imperial Soup tactics thread.
Comparatively Ineffective is BA at shooting
This is kinda meaningless ,and if I think I understand what you're trying to say, untrue.
Comparatively less effective is, I think, what you mean here. Although comparative to what?
Is a Landraider "ineffective" as a transport because a Stormraven can carry more, faster?
My point is that just because something is not "optimal", it does not become ineffective.
Bremon wrote: Soup is completely antithetical to my approach to the game and what I enjoy about the game, so I’m glad there are some people in this thread who have answers to tactics questions beyond “take AM”. I play BA. Not Imperium. BA.
This thread has valuable discussion for players like me who want to maximize the effectiveness of their vampire marines in red power armour without deviating from that red power armour. It’s quite tiresome reading about Imperial soup though. At this point I’d enjoy if there was a Tactica: Imperial Soup” for the cherry pickers to congregate.
You can't maximize the effectiveness of your BA without help from other factions. You can increase it, but not push it to the top. Because other factions are better at certain things. You can't maximize CP effectiveness without AM. BA are very CP hungry. With AM help its possible to get 3 CP when you spend 1CP and your opponent as well.
Yes. I realize that. That’s why I said “without deviating from that red power armour”. I’d like to maximize the effectiveness of what I can achieve with this single book. I don’t care to haul 4 codex books to a friends house. I understand I could win more games with soup. I don’t care. I’m looking to get the most out of BA only, to maximize what is possible with BA only. Maybe that only gets me to a 70/100 score on a hypothetical powergaming test. I realize that’s less than what could be an 85+ with soup, but it’s still more than the 55-60 it might be without input from people in this thread. We aren’t all trying to win GTs; just give our friends a closer game. I’m looking to win more 4+ turn games, I’m not looking to table people turn 1 or 2. Not many people have fun in those games. I can only imagine what a treat it must be to play against some true soup connoisseurs cherrypicking all the “best” units from half the armies in the game (ie, Imperium). I’m sure it turns xenos players without those options green with envy wishing they had 200+ units to choose from.
As for AMCP shenanigans; AM are borderline broken. I’m happy for all the guys with 15 year old models that are currently kicking butt, but to chase the meta and dump piles of money and time into assembling and painting minis I don’t care for would be moronic. The brief amount of time I do make for 40k is to paint and game with miniatures I actually like, which is why I’m looking to “maximize the effectiveness of my vampire marines in red power armour”.
If you skew towards shooting around 50-60%, BA are not that CP hungry. 2 CP for a dagger to the heart at some point. Killshot is cheap. Flakk missile is cheap. Hellfire is cheap. Auras don't cost CP, and foot captains are great sheriffs. "Get off my lawn!"
Also, reivers do their thing with zero CP expenditure. There are a lot more options than CHARGE IN THE DC.
Razerous wrote: How amazing are scouts (approx 5-6 squads) with combat blades and a power sword on the Sgt.
To me they seem pretty damned amazing. Am I wrong?
What is so damned amazing about them ?
I swear by mine. Will likely pick up a few more in the future, along with a Land Speeder Storm for transport.
They're remarkably cheap and effective. You throw Camo Cloaks on them and put them in cover and they're pretty durable too, rocking a 2+ save against AP:0 weaponry.
I have one 5 man squad of them with just combat blades and pistols and they put in very good work. I do recommend trying them out as a nice troops option. People underestimate them, and it's always hilarious when they do.
They're remarkably cheap and effective. You throw Camo Cloaks on them and put them in cover and they're pretty durable too, rocking a 2+ save against AP:0 weaponry.
Doesnt convince me. With cloaks they are 14 pts., thats 1 more than a regular space marine. That marine also rocks a 2+ sv in cover against AP0, but 3+ without cover. Your scout is 4+ with cloaks without cover.
They're remarkably cheap and effective. You throw Camo Cloaks on them and put them in cover and they're pretty durable too, rocking a 2+ save against AP:0 weaponry.
Doesnt convince me. With cloaks they are 14 pts., thats 1 more than a regular space marine. That marine also rocks a 2+ sv in cover against AP0, but 3+ without cover. Your scout is 4+ with cloaks without cover.
You're determined to be antagonistic, I see.
Cloaks are an option. You know. Something you can choose to use if you want to. I don't usually run them on my Scouts in an effort to keep them cheaper, but it is an option if I've got the spare points at the end of the list building process.
Without cloaks, they're 11 points a piece. 55 points for 5 models with marine stats save for their save.
You throw blades and pistols on them, and they're throwing out 11 attacks. That's pretty decent for 55 points. If they die before they can do anything, well, they're 55 points. Woo.
I run all three troops options in my list, as I like variety. Scouts, tactical marines in a transport, and Intercessors as well. They all have a role, and they all do their job admirably most games. You don't like scouts, then don't freakin' run 'em. I don't care one way or the other. You've obviously made up your mind, and I'm not going to waste my time further trying to change it.
My thoughts are that you need 6 troops choices anyway (in most cases) to unlock decent amounts of CP.
One of the best ways to field that (in the BA dex) is with scouts, I feel. They hit hard, the combination of deep-strike 9", charging with combat blades to 10-11 attacks per squad, hitting and wounding on 3's (or 4's vs. most big things) for 55-60pts is great. Area denial is also great too.
Previously I thought they were good with bolters as a ranged threat but that red thirst seems very effective, considering you're gonna field 6 squads of something (and that something can turn 1 threaten a charge).
However.. how cheap is a good/cheap CP battery in the form of AM/IG. Hmm (yes I do have IG from time immoral) .. hmmm
Bremon wrote: Soup is completely antithetical to my approach to the game and what I enjoy about the game, so I’m glad there are some people in this thread who have answers to tactics questions beyond “take AM”. I play BA. Not Imperium. BA.
This thread has valuable discussion for players like me who want to maximize the effectiveness of their vampire marines in red power armour without deviating from that red power armour. It’s quite tiresome reading about Imperial soup though. At this point I’d enjoy if there was a Tactica: Imperial Soup” for the cherry pickers to congregate.
You can't maximize the effectiveness of your BA without help from other factions. You can increase it, but not push it to the top. Because other factions are better at certain things. You can't maximize CP effectiveness without AM. BA are very CP hungry. With AM help its possible to get 3 CP when you spend 1CP and your opponent as well.
Yes. I realize that. That’s why I said “without deviating from that red power armour”. I’d like to maximize the effectiveness of what I can achieve with this single book. I don’t care to haul 4 codex books to a friends house. I understand I could win more games with soup. I don’t care. I’m looking to get the most out of BA only, to maximize what is possible with BA only. Maybe that only gets me to a 70/100 score on a hypothetical powergaming test. I realize that’s less than what could be an 85+ with soup, but it’s still more than the 55-60 it might be without input from people in this thread. We aren’t all trying to win GTs; just give our friends a closer game. I’m looking to win more 4+ turn games, I’m not looking to table people turn 1 or 2. Not many people have fun in those games. I can only imagine what a treat it must be to play against some true soup connoisseurs cherrypicking all the “best” units from half the armies in the game (ie, Imperium). I’m sure it turns xenos players without those options green with envy wishing they had 200+ units to choose from.
As for AMCP shenanigans; AM are borderline broken. I’m happy for all the guys with 15 year old models that are currently kicking butt, but to chase the meta and dump piles of money and time into assembling and painting minis I don’t care for would be moronic. The brief amount of time I do make for 40k is to paint and game with miniatures I actually like, which is why I’m looking to “maximize the effectiveness of my vampire marines in red power armour”.
Perhaps if you built effectively you wouldn't find AM borderline broken.
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Razerous wrote: My thoughts are that you need 6 troops choices anyway (in most cases) to unlock decent amounts of CP.
One of the best ways to field that (in the BA dex) is with scouts, I feel. They hit hard, the combination of deep-strike 9", charging with combat blades to 10-11 attacks per squad, hitting and wounding on 3's (or 4's vs. most big things) for 55-60pts is great. Area denial is also great too.
Previously I thought they were good with bolters as a ranged threat but that red thirst seems very effective, considering you're gonna field 6 squads of something (and that something can turn 1 threaten a charge).
However.. how cheap is a good/cheap CP battery in the form of AM/IG. Hmm (yes I do have IG from time immoral) .. hmmm
It depends 3 scout squads make an effective screen but you shouldnt really have anything to screen if your pure BA and they are certainly not bad but six seems excessive especially if your only taking them for CP and assumedly your also taking 3 bad FA choices to fill out that brigade.
The sensible choice would of course be to take AM for the CP
But if not 6 tacs with a lasgun and the FNP relic make for some passable AV and survivable objective holders as alternative.
U02dah4, I am predominantly lurking in this thread rather than posting, but I am finding your posts very confrontational, and they are spoiling my enjoyment of the thread. I would very much appreciate it if you could use the term "competitive" instead of "efffective" as it seems more appropriate to your intent.
As an example of what at least some others mean, my intent when I play w40k at my local club is to have an enjoyable evening with a friend in which we play out a fun battle which is settled in turn 4 or 5. Part of what makes it fun is having themed armies. I therefore use Badab era Lamenters and do not use Primaris, and they are clearly less competitive than they could be. They are very effective for having fun. I want to use them effectively within that set of criteria, even if they aren't 100% optimal, and that is why I read this thread.
U02dah4 wrote: effective
adjective
1.successful in producing a desired or intended result.
Assuming beating your opponent is the desired aim of a tactics thread
Then to be effective you must maximise your odds of winning.
I defined how I use effective - how is that not analogous to competative
Also how is the word effective being used to mean actually effective hostile?
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Red__Thirst wrote: I see we now have the 'get gud' argument being thrown around now.
Thanks for raising the bar there U02dah4.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
I didn't say get good I said build effectively
AM are harder to build a bad list and can run mono effectively they are however quite manageable by a mediocre list. If your lists are really struggling that much that you consider AM bordeline broken then maybe its about looking at how you list build its not about you being good or bad from your answers its about you placeing artificial restrictions on your list building that dont exist in 8th
I’ve used mostly bolter scouts; I’ve tried sniper scouts and wasn’t impressed. CC scouts may be an option in the future.
I take a pretty even split of our troop choices, leaning towards intercessors. I love the durability. That they take more effort to kill makes them more useful to me than the added flexibility special/heavy weapons add to tac squads (though I still like Tac marines as much as anyone does lol).
Sniper scouts don’t seem to kill any characters for me, so I’d be tempted to try stalker intercessors in cover instead. Sitting on an objective they would be more difficult to shift, though lack the psychological effect sniper scouts can sometimes have on opponents.
Razerous wrote: The 6 troops is for two Battalions not a single Brigade, as the extra 3x elite, fast attack and heavy support are far too much points wise.
4 HQ's (you're likely to make good use of four, our HQ's are bad-ass) and 6 troops.
Use scouts as screens, sure.
Or use them aggressively, MSU style. I'll test it out and report back, perhaps folk need some good old anecdotal evidence.
Ahh I assumed brigade because I would struggle CP wise with less than 12 for BA. Even in 2 battalions though I still think in purist BA you dont really have much worth screening because BA strength is in its Elites and HQs which all deepstrike or have mobility bonuses so your troops are really to sit back on objectives and Tacs will be better in that role.
While ideally you would Vanguard or supreme command BA and use something cheaper as a battery so you had more points for the strong BA units.
Fifty wrote: U02dah4, I am predominantly lurking in this thread rather than posting, but I am finding your posts very confrontational, and they are spoiling my enjoyment of the thread. I would very much appreciate it if you could use the term "competitive" instead of "efffective" as it seems more appropriate to your intent.
As an example of what at least some others mean, my intent when I play w40k at my local club is to have an enjoyable evening with a friend in which we play out a fun battle which is settled in turn 4 or 5. Part of what makes it fun is having themed armies. I therefore use Badab era Lamenters and do not use Primaris, and they are clearly less competitive than they could be. They are very effective for having fun. I want to use them effectively within that set of criteria, even if they aren't 100% optimal, and that is why I read this thread.
Being a lurker on this thread as well I would agree with the request the term used from ‘effective’ to ‘competitive’. I am into BA not for their competitive side but because I like their story and like the models. I play to have fun and when/ if I go to a tournament it is still for fun. I am using this forum as a way to educate myself about BA and how to best use them as a mono army.
Adding IG to a BA is of course going to make them more crunch effective. But so would removing every BA unit and going all IG. So this is a bit of a trivial observation.
Martel732 wrote: Adding IG to a BA is of course going to make them more crunch effective. But so would removing every BA unit and going all IG. So this is a bit of a trivial observation.
I'd consider an elite detachment with DG and/or SG making up 40% of the army, a HS detachment of LRBTs making up 40%, and a small troop detachment with Scouts or Guardsmen.
All you need to play the dice roll game to get additional CPs is a platoon commander for 20 pts. in an auxiliary support detachment and 1 CP for the veritas vitae. Its -2 CP but its highly unlikely you wont get more back than you invested. You could invest a little more in IG, 90 pts. will give you a supreme command detachment, you wouldnt lose the 1 CP for the auxiliary support detachment. At ~170 pts. the AM detachment starts to become useful, it can do something in the fight, instead of just rolling for CPs. For just below 300 you can get pask, a primaris psyker and a commander.
I'm toying with the idea of my Angels list of using BA for assault units and DA for ranged and plasmay units in a Scout and Primaris army. CC Scouts, Biker Scouts, Intercessors, dakka Inceptors, and a Libby Dread on BA side. Hellblasters, Plasma Inceptors, and tanks on the DA side. Gives me a fun smash line and gun line split. I'm painting my models primarily a bone color with red shoulders, gold highlights, and red backpack circle plate. I figure I could easily paint green shoulders and green backpack circle plates for the DA side of things, while still keeping cohesion in the paint scheme.
My BA inceptor army is doing really well right now, won 3 at a big one day event here in the UK recently and catches alot of people off guard. They are so good now!
Jpr wrote: My BA inceptor army is doing really well right now, won 3 at a big one day event here in the UK recently and catches alot of people off guard. They are so good now!
how have you been using them? Ive been thinking about dropping 3 just for fun
Jpr wrote: My BA inceptor army is doing really well right now, won 3 at a big one day event here in the UK recently and catches alot of people off guard. They are so good now!
how have you been using them? Ive been thinking about dropping 3 just for fun
The bolters and plasma are both great. I've been running between 25-30 of them! So much synergy for blood angels.
I've just found them the best thing in the book for BA!
I’m incredibly curious to hear your experiences. At this point I think they are a good unit, but I find it hyperbolic to say they are anywhere near the best thing in the book.
Well death company and so on are great too but need different support to inceptors so I've found mixing the two not as efficient. I build my list around them obviously. The ba stratagems are excellent for them.
Jpr wrote: Well death company and so on are great too but need different support to inceptors so I've found mixing the two not as efficient. I build my list around them obviously. The ba stratagems are excellent for them.
Which are the strats you found more usefull for them? could you explain the way and when you use these strats? Thanx
Jpr wrote: My BA inceptor army is doing really well right now, won 3 at a big one day event here in the UK recently and catches alot of people off guard. They are so good now!
how have you been using them? Ive been thinking about dropping 3 just for fun
The bolters and plasma are both great. I've been running between 25-30 of them! So much synergy for blood angels.
Well, 30 Inceptors seems be to a lot. Their weapons have D1 (assault bolter and std plasma) or D2 (supercharge plasma), which seems to less for my liking in a tank-heavy meta. Hello LRBTs!
Normally use 1 squad of death company with 3-4 hammers, them with some plasma and characters seems to do the trick, killed 3 knights 4 LRBT and 2-3 of those plague crawler tanks over the weekend.
BA Vanguard
HQ: Lieutenant (Jump Pack, MC Boltgun, Power Sword) = 85
ELITES: 3 Aggressors (Boltstorms, Fragstorms) = 111
ELITES: 10 Death Company (Jump Packs, Chainswords, Power Swords) = 240
ELITES: 10 Death Company (Jump Packs, Chainswords, Power Swords) = 240
ELITES: Relic Sicaran Battle Tank (Accelerator, Hull HB) = 165
ELITES: Relic Sicaran Battle Tank (Accelerator, Hull HB) = 165
ELITES: Relic Sicaran Battle Tank (Accelerator, Hull HB) = 165
Army Total = 1,999pts
I have to admit I've never played BA before, I just threw this together as a way to use my poor Iron Hands army, which probably won't see use as such for a good while.... I wanted to use the FW stuff I have, and this felt like it had some potential.
Very CP hungry as some have said indeed! I can see myself burning right through 7CP in my first turn. But I can't decide how I feel I'll deploy two units of DC: The pregame move Strat is only of reliable utility if I'm going first; if I'm going second I may prefer them off the board, but I make that decision before I know when I'm going! Gah. Well, so one unit on the board for the pregame move if it makes sense, and the other for the 3d6" charge off DS. Mephiston of course flies right in with his powers and beats on whatever he pleases.
The rest of the army is more board control and firebase; Scouts camp on their ground, maybe use the MW Strats on their heavy weapons; Sicarans can move 14" + Advance and still fire their main gun, so they can run around and grab different objectives and stuff as needed. Fire Raptor Fires Raptors. Aggressors clean out loose chaff wherever they find it. Lots of mobile firepower.
Are sicarians really that cheap? I only own one forgeworld mode and its a Sicarian. As a casual player I'm not sure where to find its most current rules. I really enjoyed using it in the prior edition of the game.
I'm fairly confident the price is closer to just under 164pts/unit although perhaps the shown value includes the very point efficient storm bolters?
The main cannon (& chassis) is bonkers. Autocannons on steroids mixed with more steroids. Rending is yum.
Scouts; can they move turn 1 & charge? Do they count towards the 50% limit of boots on the ground when you deploy this way?
Death Company; Can they get boltguns & chainswords? Also, rapid fire weapons don't seem to prohibit charging nor do you have to fire at the same target. Is this correct?
Jpr wrote: Well death company and so on are great too but need different support to inceptors so I've found mixing the two not as efficient. I build my list around them obviously. The ba stratagems are excellent for them.
Which are the strats you found more usefull for them? could you explain the way and when you use these strats? Thanx
He didn't quite explain it, but I assume Upon Wings of Fire is the only needed strat to make multiple large units of Inceptors useful as the game progresses. Being able to redeploy efficient shooting to hit targets / characters as you need would be huge. I've been trying to have at least one unit for this purpose in my list(s), but have a hard time because I'm putting my points towards other areas (and I only have 3 inceptor models currently painted).
Jpr seems to have just decided that mobility and shooting is more important than everything else, and that doesn't exactly sound wrong. Mobility and shooting is pretty important.
Sicarans are 155 for the chassis, plus a HB and a free Accelerator. The most recent rules are found in the FW Index Adeptus Astartes, but have also already been points-adjusted in the latest Chapter Approved....
Scouts can move Turn one and act normally, yeah.
DC come with BP/Chainsword, either of which can be replaced with a bunch of options, and yeah, you can shoot Rapid Fire wherever you like and still charge afterwards. Makes them pretty flexible. I was thinking of possibly doing Boltgun/Powersword for all the DC in my list above.
How would you guys think of deploying multiple aggressive Jump Pack units? Since I can only use a Strat once per phase, only one unit gets a 3d6 charge; do you drop them in one at a time, just run the rest up the board, or hope you get lucky on the 9" charges? Forlorn Fury seems dependent on going first but you don't know if that's happening until after you've deployed (I play in ITC Matched games, btw), so I'm not a huge fan of that one. Maybe I need Lemartes to help me out?
I've been playing a lot of Orks in 8th so I'm used to 9" charges, but there I get re-rolls out of the box. Without those, it does not seem reliable.
Jpr wrote: Well death company and so on are great too but need different support to inceptors so I've found mixing the two not as efficient. I build my list around them obviously. The ba stratagems are excellent for them.
Which are the strats you found more usefull for them? could you explain the way and when you use these strats? Thanx
He didn't quite explain it, but I assume Upon Wings of Fire is the only needed strat to make multiple large units of Inceptors useful as the game progresses. Being able to redeploy efficient shooting to hit targets / characters as you need would be huge. I've been trying to have at least one unit for this purpose in my list(s), but have a hard time because I'm putting my points towards other areas (and I only have 3 inceptor models currently painted).
Jpr seems to have just decided that mobility and shooting is more important than everything else, and that doesn't exactly sound wrong. Mobility and shooting is pretty important.
Pretty much. Didn't get a chance to finish my post.
Basically inceptors have been amazing since the points drop but only until BA have they had the right synergy of support, stratagems and combat power. They are such good all round units for BAimo nothing compares to them point for point during a game.
I like to use bikes despite the fact we don’t have a stratagem called “on wheels of fire” for them. Somewhat better at delivering 3 melta shots then assault squads are (especially since the assault sergeant can’t have a combi melta). Can’t really think of a use for assault squads otherwise. Cheap objective grabbers with OWOF I guess.
Sanguinary Guard with plasma (dropping with warlord for re-reroll to hit) has worked well for me. I use them as an anti-elite unit. Nice being able to gut/kill units of terminators, etc when overcharging.
I ordered some Sang Guard but the fact that all three weapon options are D3 damage leave them in a weird spot for me. Not as punchy as hammers, but not enough attacks to kill chaff. I’ll likely just have to dump them in where fighting is thick against MEQ/TEQ and rely on the relic banner with a warlord ancient for longevity and added bite.
Sanguinary guard near the sanguinor is really good. +1 attacks, and they get to re-roll hits is pretty nice with D3 weapons, add the banner as well and you've got a nasty unit for sure.
I plan on running my (eventual) Sanguinary Guard with a warlord Librarian (Jump Pack) and a Sanguinary Guard Ancient with the Relic banner. The Librarian will throw Unleash Rage on the Guard and Shield of Sanguinius on them as well for added punch and durability.
I suspect this unit will be pretty killy, and clocks in well under 500 points (~430 I think it is, with upgrades).
I still need to build my Sanguinary Guard but am looking forward to trying them out once built.
Shield of Sanguinius doesn’t do much for them until they’re getting hit by Hellblasters or melta. Shield benefits other units more imo. It getting knocked back to 5++ puts it in the bottom half of the sanguinary discipline for me.
Bremon wrote: Shield of Sanguinius doesn’t do much for them until they’re getting hit by Hellblasters or melta. Shield benefits other units more imo. It getting knocked back to 5++ puts it in the bottom half of the sanguinary discipline for me.
I think I agree with this. When it was a 4++ it felt mandatory. Now that it's 5++ it seems to have a hard time competing with a semi-well placed Smite.
p5freak wrote: Question is if index librarians on bike use index psychic powers, or not. If yes, their shield is still 4++. There is a discussion about this in YMDC.
You use the most up to date version of the rules for the model, so you use the index.
However the most up to date version of the powers are within the codex. Not much to really discuss, as I feel that was covered fairly clearly in (one of) the FAQ's
Ghost_Raptur wrote: 5+++ relic banner I would think would be the go to defense buff for the Sang Guard.
Yes. If carried by a Company or Primaris ancient, it works really well for Primaris units too, particularly Hellblasters and Plasma Inceptors. Their 2 wounds benefit well from the 5+++ and if they die to overcharging (or anything else) they get to make a parting shot on a 4+.
Add a Sanguinary Priest/Novitiate (with JP from the Index if you wish) and you can heal wounded models or resurrect dead ones. All of a sudden, you have a unit that is surprisingly hard to put down.
p5freak wrote: Question is if index librarians on bike use index psychic powers, or not. If yes, their shield is still 4++. There is a discussion about this in YMDC.
You use the most up to date version of the rules for the model, so you use the index.
However the most up to date version of the powers are within the codex. Not much to really discuss, as I feel that was covered fairly clearly in (one of) the FAQ's
Then feel free to abuse the “we’ll allow you to use your old models...for now” nature of the index then? I guess we can wait for even more index related FAQ/designers commentary.
Hoodwink wrote: I don't see anyone allowing someone to use a psychic power from the index after the exact same worded psychic power took a nerf in the codex.
That's because you're a sane individual that isn't looking to promote an obviously feel-bad experience.
How are people arming their DC? I've just starting building a BA army after playing Sallies and Nids. I've built a couple with ax, 2 with swords and 2 with TH all with JPs. Also some cc and bp for ablative wounds.
mrwhoop wrote: How are people arming their DC? I've just starting building a BA army after playing Sallies and Nids. I've built a couple with ax, 2 with swords and 2 with TH all with JPs. Also some cc and bp for ablative wounds.
Are bolters in a rhino or LR decent?
i have 15 to assemble, pretty sure I’ll go 10x bolter and chainsword, 5x bolter and power sword. Cheap, weight of attacks, and the ability to shoot a unit when you land, and then charge another.
In a 15-man squad I would run them all with bolters since you will rarely be in combat on the second round to fire pistols. 10 with chainswords, 3 with power swords and 2 Thunder Hammers to deal with big beasts. In smaller squads, adjust the ratios accordingly.
Hey guys, I just finished a 2k test game and found out a nice maneuver from our strats. I used the DC squad to deploy in range with two possible good spots with the forlon's fury strat early to make my opponent deploy his army to counter it. It was so heavily deployed that I just used the Forlon's fury to retreat. He got first turn, but I managed to redeploy the squad on another sweet spot far beyond my opponent's welcoming party. I tabled the Nid's force T4.
10x death company > jump packs > 2x power fist > 3x power sword > 1x power axe > 5x chainsword > 10x boltgun 7x sanguinary guard > 5x angelus boltgun & encarmine sword > 2x inferno pistol & power fist Sanguinary ancient > angelus boltgun & encarmine sword > banner of sacrifice
I was about to play Dante, but swapped him out for the capt to get a assback razor. I asked feedback for this list in another forum, but didn't get any suggestions so I just tried out version without Dante. With my dice rolls I didn't need to reroll 2's buff, but just one game. I really think that maneuver will get some players off guard and make their deployment choices in your favor.
Edit: You can get a double benefit from the 1CP red rampage strat with the 3CP honour the chapter. Mephiston was overkill with the quickening and the strat. Point and click and grow wings..
I was about to play Dante, but swapped him out for the capt to get a assback razor. I asked feedback for this list in another forum, but didn't get any suggestions so I just tried out version without Dante. With my dice rolls I didn't need to reroll 2's buff, but just one game. I really think that maneuver will get some players off guard and make their deployment choices in your favor.
I think Dante is overpriced for what he brings. A Captain with Hammer, Relic Jump Pack, Artisan of War and Death Visions of Sanguinius is just 117 points (or 129 if you swap out his MC bolter for a Storm Shield) and really brings the pain. Cast Unleash Rage from a nearby Librarian and use Red Rampage for 7-9 attacks per round, each dealing 4 damage. Use Honour of the Chapter and this guy can one-shot a Lord of War, even Mortarion!
Martel732 wrote: I agree with the above. I might go 3 hammers. Just to make the break down easier. 3 chainsword, 1 power sword, 1 hammer. Scale as appropriately.
This isn’t a bad idea, fairly capable of dealing with a multitude of targets and still has a boatload of attacks.
I was about to play Dante, but swapped him out for the capt to get a assback razor. I asked feedback for this list in another forum, but didn't get any suggestions so I just tried out version without Dante. With my dice rolls I didn't need to reroll 2's buff, but just one game. I really think that maneuver will get some players off guard and make their deployment choices in your favor.
I think Dante is overpriced for what he brings. A Captain with Hammer, Relic Jump Pack, Artisan of War and Death Visions of Sanguinius is just 117 points (or 129 if you swap out his MC bolter for a Storm Shield) and really brings the pain. Cast Unleash Rage from a nearby Librarian and use Red Rampage for 7-9 attacks per round, each dealing 4 damage. Use Honour of the Chapter and this guy can one-shot a Lord of War, even Mortarion!
You are forgetting In death does duty end. We will get to hit when on steroids if we want, if we manage to pull the charge. Ok, you charge with let's sat Mephy, pull the honour the chapter when buffed with quickening and red rampage so you attack twice with maxium of 20 attacks, Mortartion kills you and you attack once more. You can do this with the DC captain with the hammer or even Librarian dread, although he can't use the honour the chapter, but still with those buffs and S10 AP-4 D4 (with the artisan of war) will hurt anyone they engage. It's almost silly that this all benefits greatly from a successful wings of sanguinius psychic test roll After all it's game of dice..
So, am I correct in thinking Forlorn Fury is better with Jump Pack Death Company than Descent of Angels? A 25-30" move seems like it is absolutely insane. Also much less likely to fail.
All my lists have been strat consumers, so I've run two jump pack melee threats in every list so far. That stated, I've run SG and VV to be the 2nd melee threat along with the blob of DC. SG has performed well and I've only tried the VV once. This said, the Descent of the Angels strat is for this second unit, DC uses the Forlon's fury. Maybe with only a single melee threat I'd skip the forlon's fury, but my lists and way I see BA play is what it has been
casvalremdeikun wrote: So, am I correct in thinking Forlorn Fury is better with Jump Pack Death Company than Descent of Angels? A 25-30" move seems like it is absolutely insane. Also much less likely to fail.
Tough call. Forlorn Fury is better IF you get the first turn. If not, advancing close to the enemy is just asking to get shot to bits or charged by their nasty units who will strike first. The good thing is that you only decide whether or not to use Forlorn Fury after determining who goes first so if it ain't you, save those CPs for something else.
My approach would probably be to use 1 largish unit of DC for Forlorn Fury and another good jump CC unit (more DC, SG, VVs etc) in Reserve. Try to make them roughly equal in value and killing power so your opponent will not have any easy choices. If you get T1, use FF to move the DC up close, ready for a T1 charge With 2 moves, they can easily jump over skirmish screens of chaff to charge the units behind (something that can be a lot harder with DoA).
If you don't get the first turn, move the DC up into a good position (prefferably in cover) for a T2 charge. Bring in your other Jump unit from Reserve and use DoA to charge the chaff screen directly. Whilst not ideal, this will create a decent opening for your DC to exploit on Turn 2.
Of course if your opponent has neglected to bubble-wrap any good units, feel free to punish him for his carelessness.
As CP's are so hard to come by I've been avoiding using any strat's before the game. It's worked so far. I don't use the DC strat as you can usually just ds them and save the point's for later. Remember you don't alway's need to alpha strike with DS troops.
kryczek wrote: As CP's are so hard to come by I've been avoiding using any strat's before the game. It's worked so far. I don't use the DC strat as you can usually just ds them and save the point's for later. Remember you don't alway's need to alpha strike with DS troops.
My current setup is 8CP. I think that is adequate. I like the Veritas Vitae, so I will definitely be able to make good enough use of them.
To be honest, with my other army (Crimson Fists), I regularly end the game with at least 2 CP left. That is probably because I forget to use them.
They can be, but keep on preaching from the good book. Everyone needs to hear the good news; if we open our hearts and wallets our angels of death can truly be complete thanks to our saviour; Astra Militarum.
BA only, I’d say 9 CP at 2k is reasonable and taking VV can net us 1-2 more on average, which is enough for a Descent of Angels, a couple On Wings of Fire, a timely Only in Death or Honour the Chapter, and a reroll or two. Seems good* to me.
*something I’m able to win games with, but not competitive enough for “top tables”, and not “great” like soup.
Circling back to the VV discussion, I’m dedicating my squad to anti-tank/anti heavy support; a few claws, storm shields to eat overwatch, etc., a few hammers. Does anyone run inferno pistols, or see a point to? I’m thinking if the enemy has a tank or two and the squad isn’t instantly wiped in the opponents next turn it’s possible that melta range on the pistols is achievable.
That said; some of those points could be put into a lascannon Devastator squad that can touch things a lot further than melta range.
The value of inferno pistols depends on whether you plan to Deep strike/DoA them or not. Since you have ot land out of range of the guns, they are probably not worth taking if you plan to use them this way.
If you are planning to jump them up the field making use of cover and then attack as part of a second wave then you may get some use out of them. If you opponent has castled up, you may be able to melt one target and then assault another.
I would not count on using them in combat though. As I find very few combat last into a third round. If they have a few thunder hammers, either they or their target are likely to be dead before you find yourself in a position to shoot.
Bremon wrote: Circling back to the VV discussion, I’m dedicating my squad to anti-tank/anti heavy support; a few claws, storm shields to eat overwatch, etc., a few hammers. Does anyone run inferno pistols, or see a point to? I’m thinking if the enemy has a tank or two and the squad isn’t instantly wiped in the opponents next turn it’s possible that melta range on the pistols is achievable.
That said; some of those points could be put into a lascannon Devastator squad that can touch things a lot further than melta range.
Inferno pistols are great defensively. Put two company veterans in a razorback/rhino with four inferno pistols. Thats only 68 pts. If your opponent charges you with his daemon/monster pop out on your turn 3" from the transport, move 6", and you probably will be within 3". Now shoot him four times and melt his big model.
Bremon wrote: Circling back to the VV discussion, I’m dedicating my squad to anti-tank/anti heavy support; a few claws, storm shields to eat overwatch, etc., a few hammers. Does anyone run inferno pistols, or see a point to? I’m thinking if the enemy has a tank or two and the squad isn’t instantly wiped in the opponents next turn it’s possible that melta range on the pistols is achievable.
That said; some of those points could be put into a lascannon Devastator squad that can touch things a lot further than melta range.
Inferno pistols are great defensively. Put two company veterans in a razorback/rhino with four inferno pistols. Thats only 68 pts. If your opponent charges you with his daemon/monster pop out on your turn 3" from the transport, move 6", and you probably will be within 3". Now shoot him four times and melt his big model.
This is something I hadn’t thought of at all. I really like the idea of this.
I've been mistaking the infernus pistol with the combi melta all this time.
Granted the combi melta will allow for T1 deep strike shots but.. for 2 guardsmen and a baby, sure why not. Especially on BS2+ models.
What is the best melee weapon for a (somtimes/often) Death Company Lieutenant? I've already stolen the hammer of Baal. This will likely be a forward/aggressive model too, for context. The humble power sword? Axe, fist, hammer?
Hammer in my opinion is the right weapon for characters the vast majority of the time because they have a reasonable amount of attacks to make use of it. Claws or chainsword add 50% more attacks to a standard veteran infantry. They add a smaller percentage to a captain or lieutenant, while the increased damage and likeliness of wounding tilts the scale in favour of the hammer in my eyes.
If you aren’t taking the relic banner is there much of a reason to take a terminator Ancient over the terminator chaplain? The Ancient will take the termies to Ld 10, which will practically never be a factor, and unless my math is off, the chaplain is cheaper. I suppose if you want another thunder hammer in your list the Ancient is your guy, but you can get thunder hammer attacks at a better price elsewhere.
I’m hoping the FAQ becomes far more fleshed out in March or whenever they are meant to do a large errata. Plus, isn’t LVO or something sizeable happening shortly? More data for them I suppose. I can’t believe it’s only 3 issues addressed.
I guess I can decide if my sergeants should have power swords of chainswords now though. Power swords is likely the right choice, but chainswords look great.
Joey86 wrote: Since you use it before Advancing and it doesn`tprevent advancing, i would say you advance.
You have to break down the RAW to see what it does.
- You use the stratagem before advancing.
- Increase its Move characteristic by 6". Simple enough.
- Do not roll a dice. This is where it gets a little funky and needs clearing up. The only time you would roll a d6 when moving is when you advance. If you are not rolling a d6 specifically because of the stratagem, then you do not roll for the advance.
My take: This stratagem allows you to move your standard movement plus the additional 6" (or more in the case of the Baal Predator). There is no mention that you have to advance, it just states you use it before advancing. What does this mean? I get a movement characteristic of Movement + 6" (insert Baal Predator extras...) instead of having to move AND advance. Now, you can still fire your heavy weapons at the stock -1 to hit even though I moved at movement plus advance speeds. The downside is that the "Do not roll a dice" would only deal with advancing. This means if you use the Engines, you cannot advance in the same turn since you do not roll a dice. Granted, you could also move, stratagem, charge since you didn't advance. People are downplaying this stratagem but I see it REALLY good for Flamer Baals. At top damage tier, you're looking at 12"+6"+d6" Movement. Then you add in the 8" flamer range, you're looking at a possible 32" flamer threat range. It's good but niche as most stratagems should be.
), Warlord: 6" ignore morale.
.)
But he usually is a one-shot-only-Beast. He wants to kill the biggest and baddest modell of your opponent. The 3+ to hit does not do much, and if you really want to, just pick the relict-hammer. I would always recomment the Angels Wing as he desperately needs the reroll and also can not tank that much (and sometimes really hart) overwatch-fire.
