kodos wrote:
just remember the WC guys talking about the size of the Contemptor being Marine size, it will be a 16mm game tomorrow

These presenter people are the same ones that did some of the most wet-paper-baggish presentations ever at Warhammerfest, i think GW puts enthusiasm-reducing chemicals in their water to prevent them from building a fanbase and running of to Youtube

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:For someone with an old army, it may be as simple as basing their bases, just to raise the overall profile.

Tanks maybe not such a simple hypothetical solution.

I think it will be ok to just base older tanks. Bases can then be filled with extra models, bit of terrain etc.



YMMV of course. But the bases should take up about the same amount of space as an unbased new model.

If I end up with more than enough of the new models to run full armies, then I'll probably just reuse my older stuff as 'planetary defence forces', which would explain away why they don't need to be so big.

kodos wrote:just remember the WC guys talking about the size of the Contemptor being Marine size, it will be a 16mm game tomorrow

I can't believe they brought Epic back as a 25mm game. Scale creep!

 Tastyfish wrote:
Ooh, what's the recipe for that Krytos green? Just Sons of Horus over Lupercal?

Thanks. I went with a custom mix using Scale75 Fantasy and Games paints:

1 part Riff Green
2 to 3 parts Hellhound Flesh

Airbrushed. Gives a nice paleish green without it looking washed out

 kodos wrote:
just remember the WC guys talking about the size of the Contemptor being Marine size, it will be a 16mm game tomorrow

Well I have thought for a long time that 40k would work better at 15mm so I wouldn't be disappointed!

Not Online!!! wrote:
My issue is, GW already has logistics issues plaguing support for now what are supposed to be 3 mainline games. 40k, AoS and HH. This is another one and then we have ToW aswell.

Is this a mainline game? This seems like it will fall under the nebulous auspice of 'Boxed Games'.

Sarouan wrote:
This below is an 3000 points Imperial Guard army for Epic Armaggedon :



Doesn't feel Epic too, does it ?

There are over 30 tanks in that army, compared to the 5 in the Marine army in NuEpic. Were you trying to prove my point?

Sarouan wrote:
The point is, all of the armies shown in these pictures were never built from a single box, be it core, starter or launch. It's a collection built with time (and lot of money too).

Comparing it with that new box that will be obviously NOT the endgame of your collection is futile.

Was that your point? 'Cause it sure didn't feel like it when you made your first post. Hey! Wait a sec! how did those goal posts get way over there?

BTW, here's another starter box:

lurch wrote:
I have been waging the scale battle online in various places and the sheer number of people convinced that this is in 8mm despite the evidence for it being 6mm is amazing,
I really think part of the problem is that a lot of people don't realize how under scaled a lot of the old models where.

Wait, what? Who are we saying was right and who was wrong?

By my pixel counting, assuming these models are on 25mm bases, I get 7 to 7.5mm to the eyes for the Solar Auxilia, and about 7.5 to 8mm overall height. The Marines are mostly around 7.5mm to the eye and 8mm to the top of the head with some of the more upright ones being closer to 8.5mm. The Termies I get 8 to 8.3mm to the eye and up to about 9mm overall height.

Admittedly it's slightly hard to tell because the models are all viewed at a slight downward angle, so there's a bit of judgement required on where to place the limits when counting pixels. But those are the numbers I got.

That sure sounds like what most people were saying, which was that Epic would be 1/4 of 40k scale and 40k scale somewhere in the 7 to 8mm range (I tended to argue closer to 8mm because I think 40k these days is closer to 32mm than it is to 28mm, depending on how it's measured).

I've probably oversized my 3D prints a bit, because I preferred a slightly larger scale and made my regular Marines 8mm to the eye, though my oomies are probably about right as I made them 7 to the eye.


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 Pacific wrote:
Those look great Judgedoug I think those certainly mix well.

Kid Kyoto - yes this got posted a few pages ago, courtesy of Ian Wood in the FB community group. He used some trigonometry based on the known base and Warhound size and came to this conclusion.

Spoiler:

Only just saw this picture, I think Ian is slightly off on this one, by my count all the models are about 0.5mm taller than what he got, which is odd because he drew fancy little boxes and everything, lol. I literally just loaded them into paint, drew a selection box around them, and in the bottom left corner of paint it tells you how many pixels the box you just drew was and I got about 0.5mm taller than those measurements across the board. It's just (size of base x pixels model / pixels base) = size in mm.

Maybe if he used trigonometry he did it the wrong way around.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Epic may be a slow burn thing.

The feel of an Epic game is like nothing else I’ve played (not that I for one have a wide frame of reference). But it’s a visually spectacular one. Easy to paint too.

This is a killer combo. Personally I'm really liking how the new bases make titans feel larger.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Wait, what? Who are we saying was right and who was wrong?

By my pixel counting, assuming these models are on 25mm bases, I get 7 to 7.5mm to the eyes for the Solar Auxilia, and about 7.5 to 8mm overall height. The Marines are mostly around 7.5mm to the eye and 8mm to the top of the head with some of the more upright ones being closer to 8.5mm. The Termies I get 8 to 8.3mm to the eye and up to about 9mm overall height.

What was stated ages ago was that the new titans for Adeptus Titanicus were scaled so that they would match up with an 8mm marine. That matches with your comments above. Marines aren't normal humans, however, and are quite a bit taller. Since the scale is based off of the height of a normal human, the scale shouldn't be 8mm.

Yeah actually now that I look at it closer, I am also seeing the same discrepancies that Skink is seeing.

The first base in the image is 775px wide, which if 25mm means 31px = 1mm. But the Marine in the front left is 274px tall (to the top of the head, not the backpack) which means it's close to 9mm tall.

Still not big enough to be 8mm, but maybe it really is exactly one quarter the size of 40K; a 'heroic 7mm' if you will.

Gimme one of those new Leman Russes and in about ten seconds I'll give you a definite scale. Guess we'll just have to wait for release to finally put this question to bed.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

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 Pacific wrote:
Those look great Judgedoug I think those certainly mix well.

Kid Kyoto - yes this got posted a few pages ago, courtesy of Ian Wood in the FB community group. He used some trigonometry based on the known base and Warhound size and came to this conclusion.

Spoiler:

Only just saw this picture, I think Ian is slightly off on this one, by my count all the models are about 0.5mm taller than what he got, which is odd because he drew fancy little boxes and everything, lol. I literally just loaded them into paint, drew a selection box around them, and in the bottom left corner of paint it tells you how many pixels the box you just drew was and I got about 0.5mm taller than those measurements across the board. It's just (size of base x pixels model / pixels base) = size in mm.

Maybe if he used trigonometry he did it the wrong way around.

Having known Ian for quite some years now (he was running demos of Infinity in the early '10s and very active in that community along with Epic) he is a smart guy, so I'm trusting his judgement. I've not done any maths on it myself, but based on what he and others have shown (another chap on FB has done some prints at different measurements alongside the WHs), just 'going by eye' it feels about right for me.

If it's half a mil out though, I won't lose any sleep over it

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
The psychology of pricing is so fascinating, and clearly isn't rational, rather highly subjective.

Just thinking about it personally, I love the look of this box (minus the frightful lack of transports), and as an Epic Armageddon fan, the "size" in volume of the box looks like a good army...

... but price will be a weird factor. At say $170-ish, I know I will buy two of these and give away the extra book...

... at $200 I would buy one...

... at $250-300, I won't buy any.

Just a funny observation that our brains create pretty arbitrary break points where a thing can go from "awesome" to "crap" quite suddenly.

I find the pricing of Warhammer equally fascinating and some people mentioned inflation, but I don’t think GW obeys outside forces like “inflation” or “exchange rates”.

So I came up with a GW specific metric, which I call the Rhino Price Index (or RPI, sure it’ll catch on).

In 1989 Space Marine was released for £19.99, at the same time you could by a 40K Rhino for £4.99.
Today the 40K Rhino is £32.50, which means the epic box should be £130, or $210.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Is this a mainline game? This seems like it will fall under the nebulous auspice of 'Boxed Games'.

It sure feels like a Boxed Games one.

Was that your point? 'Cause it sure didn't feel like it when you made your first post. Hey! Wait a sec! how did those goal posts get way over there?

Nope, my point was that your "Epic feeling" is simply totally subjective and depending of the rules you play with. The number "feels" different from your expectations, your vision and the actual number you played with said version. It's not the same if it 1st edition, Epic 40k, Epic Armaggedon or even Netepic.

Also, criticising the number on a "core box" is like criticising the number of models from "Warhammer 40,000: Introductory Set" and says it doesn't represent a full army played in Warhammer 40k. Of course it doesn't, it's not the full collection you'll end playing in regular games. Comparing with the number of miniatures on a different scale (6mm is definitely smaller than what we have here with the new game) and with different details (mind you, that box you show had a lot of monopose miniatures and there was no Titan as I said before) is also misleading, IMHO.


As for the "scale creep", I also thought they were bigger than what I saw in other "8mm" 3D printed models from my own experience. I don't mind, honestly : bigger means easier to paint.

And if there are less infantry models in a detachment, it's actually more encouraging to finish it for me.

scatter dice...

never understood this thing, 1st, and earlier 40k, had a better way.

the actual template had a 6 pointed clock face on it, numbered, roll a d6, scatter in the direction of the arrow on the template itself

no parallax issues

can also use a d12 which I have seen

beast_gts wrote:
10 Things You Need To Know About Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis (WarCom)...

I'm guardedly optimistic about the touted flexibility in force creation...

Combine that with the comprehensive force list in the main book...

leopard wrote:
scatter dice...

never understood this thing, 1st, and earlier 40k, had a better way.

the actual template had a 6 pointed clock face on it, numbered, roll a d6, scatter in the direction of the arrow on the template itself

no parallax issues

can also use a d12 which I have seen

The point of a scatter dice is that you simply roll the dice and look at the arrow. You don't have to place a scatter template or use a d12 while wondering with corner you'll take into account.

Nowadays, it's easy to make one. Hell even 3D printing one doesn't take a lot of ressources.

And if you really don't want to use one (like you don't want to buy anything GW), just use your own methods. Like you said, it works too.

RazorEdge wrote:

Looks like the orders are:
-- First Fire
-- Advance
-- March
-- Charge
-- Fall Back

Sarouan wrote:

leopard wrote:
scatter dice...

never understood this thing, 1st, and earlier 40k, had a better way.

the actual template had a 6 pointed clock face on it, numbered, roll a d6, scatter in the direction of the arrow on the template itself

no parallax issues

can also use a d12 which I have seen

The point of a scatter dice is that you simply roll the dice and look at the arrow. You don't have to place a scatter template or use a d12 while wondering with corner you'll take into account.

Nowadays, it's easy to make one. Hell even 3D printing one doesn't take a lot of ressources.

And if you really don't want to use one (like you don't want to buy anything GW), just use your own methods. Like you said, it works too.

oh I know the point on it, and in general its fine, its just so open to arguments when playing people who enjoy the argument phase above all else

it does help if people read the bit about rolling it close to the template, not the other side of the board, behind a building, or perhaps in a totally different building.

it does have one massive advantage though, as yet GW have not round a way to put a "modifier" on it


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 schoon wrote:

RazorEdge wrote:

Looks like the orders are:
-- First Fire
-- Advance
-- March
-- Charge
-- Fall Back

all of these make perfect sense, and hopefully are quite intuitive in what they permit you to do. its also a good sign in another way if Titans still get the same orders they have now (flexibility of having appropriate orders for units)

looks like tokens for the orders, sadly not nice bright colours, but gladly nice sized ones. hopefully the sheet is available outside the box as well, no huge loss if not as can always make your own easily enough (heck 20mm MDF discs, splodge of colour on one side, job done)

also a good sign for me is the amount of text next to each order is quite small, so nice and simple

Still got Epic Armies and loads of terrain....sounds like this is bigger scale?

Shame that, was hoping to have battlefields ready to go (would still have got some new stuff).

Still got all the old Card/Plastic tower blocks too, plus loads of other cool stuff.

VAYASEN wrote:
Still got Epic Armies and loads of terrain....sounds like this is bigger scale?

Shame that, was hoping to have battlefields ready to go (would still have got some new stuff).

Still got all the old Card/Plastic tower blocks too, plus loads of other cool stuff.

to be honest I would have zero issues playing with or against a force that was in part or in whole older models, I used to have the old stuff, I wish I still had it

leopard wrote:
scatter dice...
never understood this thing, 1st, and earlier 40k, had a better way.
the actual template had a 6 pointed clock face on it, numbered, roll a d6, scatter in the direction of the arrow on the template itself
no parallax issues
can also use a d12 which I have seen

first of all it means that GW just copy&paste existing rules into a new book rather than making a new game or tried to improve it

having a template with numbers and using D6 (1D6 or 2D6) is not new and other games have used that for a while now, but the original rules come with that, so GW keeps it

 kodos wrote:

leopard wrote:
scatter dice...
never understood this thing, 1st, and earlier 40k, had a better way.
the actual template had a 6 pointed clock face on it, numbered, roll a d6, scatter in the direction of the arrow on the template itself
no parallax issues
can also use a d12 which I have seen

first of all it means that GW just copy&paste existing rules into a new book rather than making a new game or tried to improve it

having a template with numbers and using D6 (1D6 or 2D6) is not new and other games have used that for a while now, but the original rules come with that, so GW keeps it

Taking inspiration of previous games is not "copy and paste". We don't have enough details on the actual rules to state that. Besides, you really don't want to use that slippery slope given you're a big fan of Mantic Games and they kinda did exactly that with their recent games, you know.

I don't know if any templates in one of Mantic games, wo which slippery slope are you meaning?

and you really think that a scatter dice and a template without markings is less slippery than a template with numbers?
so I guess you never played any games using them

PS: if it is copy & paste or inspiration we will see when the rules are out
but given that the picture shows the GW standard templates we have for 20+ years now the chance that they got inspired by old rules and it just happened that they are identical is low

 kodos wrote:
I don't know if any templates in one of Mantic games, wo which slippery slope are you meaning?

Mantic Games: Armada litterally using the game system of Black Seas from Warlord Games as base.

So you really don't want to go that way, trust me.

It's not even a good argument, anyway. New game systems nowadays are rarely innovative and always have inspirations of what was made before and worked in some of their mechanisms. It's natural and logical given the sheer number that are released every year.

Wait for the full rules and see what is good and what is not in it. Using old templates isn't necessarily bad. If it doesn't satisfy you, you will always have the possibility to use older systems, or other ones from other sources.

Still slightly misty eyed at that second edition starter, remember it well - while I thought the rules from 1st were better (opinions vary naturally) the actual 2nd boxed set was way better in all but one regard, the varied terrain of the 1st one was nicer to look at. a minor point

getting basically three armies in the box was excellent

 Pacific wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

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 Pacific wrote:
Those look great Judgedoug I think those certainly mix well.

Kid Kyoto - yes this got posted a few pages ago, courtesy of Ian Wood in the FB community group. He used some trigonometry based on the known base and Warhound size and came to this conclusion.

Spoiler:

Only just saw this picture, I think Ian is slightly off on this one, by my count all the models are about 0.5mm taller than what he got, which is odd because he drew fancy little boxes and everything, lol. I literally just loaded them into paint, drew a selection box around them, and in the bottom left corner of paint it tells you how many pixels the box you just drew was and I got about 0.5mm taller than those measurements across the board. It's just (size of base x pixels model / pixels base) = size in mm.

Maybe if he used trigonometry he did it the wrong way around.

Having known Ian for quite some years now (he was running demos of Infinity in the early '10s and very active in that community along with Epic) he is a smart guy, so I'm trusting his judgement. I've not done any maths on it myself, but based on what he and others have shown (another chap on FB has done some prints at different measurements alongside the WHs), just 'going by eye' it feels about right for me.

If it's half a mil out though, I won't lose any sleep over it

Don't really need to "trust" anyone, just count some pixels. Coz I'm a nerd, I loaded them up in matlab and drew some grids over them to show my working, the only tricksy thing is the angle that the photos are taken at. I did use the angle of the bases as a reference to calculate the angle then squished the lines, however I haven't included those images as I think they're a bit deceptive unless you know what you're looking at and the difference wasn't huge (also they act to make things look taller, not shorter). So the below images are just a straight grid scaled so that the base is 25mm.

The only one I maybe overstated in my previous post was the oomies, which I said were "7 to 7.5mm to the eyes for the Solar Auxilia, and about 7.5 to 8mm overall height", most are probably on the lower end of those scales, though some of the more upright ones do come up to the upper end of it.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


By my pixel counting, assuming these models are on 25mm bases, I get 7 to 7.5mm to the eyes for the Solar Auxilia, and about 7.5 to 8mm overall height. The Marines are mostly around 7.5mm to the eye and 8mm to the top of the head with some of the more upright ones being closer to 8.5mm. The Termies I get 8 to 8.3mm to the eye and up to about 9mm overall height.

Admittedly it's slightly hard to tell because the models are all viewed at a slight downward angle, so there's a bit of judgement required on where to place the limits when counting pixels. But those are the numbers I got.

That sure sounds like what most people were saying, which was that Epic would be 1/4 of 40k scale and 40k scale somewhere in the 7 to 8mm range (I tended to argue closer to 8mm because I think 40k these days is closer to 32mm than it is to 28mm, depending on how it's measured).

If marines are 8mm tall and game is 8mm then it's huge retcon to have marines 6feet tall. Ie human size.

6mm scale refers to human height after all. So you are claiming gw retconned marines be average　human height...

I think they look just fine, they look large enough its easy to tell unit types visually which is really all that matters

Sarouan wrote:

 kodos wrote:
I don't know if any templates in one of Mantic games, wo which slippery slope are you meaning?

Mantic Games: Armada litterally using the game system of Black Seas from Warlord Games as base.

So you really don't want to go that way, trust me.

well I don't think movement templates and blast templates with scatter dice are the same, but whatever

and there was a reason why templates with scatter dice were removed, although templates have a big advantage for such games and there are more options between "no templates at all" and "scatter dice"

Eumerin wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Wait, what? Who are we saying was right and who was wrong?

By my pixel counting, assuming these models are on 25mm bases, I get 7 to 7.5mm to the eyes for the Solar Auxilia, and about 7.5 to 8mm overall height. The Marines are mostly around 7.5mm to the eye and 8mm to the top of the head with some of the more upright ones being closer to 8.5mm. The Termies I get 8 to 8.3mm to the eye and up to about 9mm overall height.

What was stated ages ago was that the new titans for Adeptus Titanicus were scaled so that they would match up with an 8mm marine. That matches with your comments above. Marines aren't normal humans, however, and are quite a bit taller. Since the scale is based off of the height of a normal human, the scale shouldn't be 8mm.

Except Marines have never been significantly taller than normal humans except in the fluff. In the models, Marines are only a touch larger than normal humans (and some models are just as tall, like the Kasrkin).

But yeah, in the rest of my post I did say 7 to 8mm scale but leaning closer to 8 than 7. Certainly not 6mm.

I guess we'll get better measurements when the box comes out, lol.

tneva82 wrote:

If marines are 8mm tall and game is 8mm then it's huge retcon to have marines 6feet tall. Ie human size.

6mm scale refers to human height after all. So you are claiming gw retconned marines be average　human height...

Aren't Horus Heresy marines specifically different from 40k marines, in the way they were made ? I think in the background, HH marines are actually made from humans and don't have that "buffed up" constitution like in modern 40k. Or at least, that's how they justify the difference.

tneva82 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


By my pixel counting, assuming these models are on 25mm bases, I get 7 to 7.5mm to the eyes for the Solar Auxilia, and about 7.5 to 8mm overall height. The Marines are mostly around 7.5mm to the eye and 8mm to the top of the head with some of the more upright ones being closer to 8.5mm. The Termies I get 8 to 8.3mm to the eye and up to about 9mm overall height.

Admittedly it's slightly hard to tell because the models are all viewed at a slight downward angle, so there's a bit of judgement required on where to place the limits when counting pixels. But those are the numbers I got.

That sure sounds like what most people were saying, which was that Epic would be 1/4 of 40k scale and 40k scale somewhere in the 7 to 8mm range (I tended to argue closer to 8mm because I think 40k these days is closer to 32mm than it is to 28mm, depending on how it's measured).

If marines are 8mm tall and game is 8mm then it's huge retcon to have marines 6feet tall. Ie human size.

6mm scale refers to human height after all. So you are claiming gw retconned marines be average　human height...

GW has never made Marines significantly taller than humans in actual physical models. But just have a look at the pics I posted and decide for yourself, the humans don't look 6mm to me, they look 7 to 7.5mm in the "to the eye" scale and 7.5 to 8mm in the "overall height" scale.

tneva82 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


By my pixel counting, assuming these models are on 25mm bases, I get 7 to 7.5mm to the eyes for the Solar Auxilia, and about 7.5 to 8mm overall height. The Marines are mostly around 7.5mm to the eye and 8mm to the top of the head with some of the more upright ones being closer to 8.5mm. The Termies I get 8 to 8.3mm to the eye and up to about 9mm overall height.

Admittedly it's slightly hard to tell because the models are all viewed at a slight downward angle, so there's a bit of judgement required on where to place the limits when counting pixels. But those are the numbers I got.

That sure sounds like what most people were saying, which was that Epic would be 1/4 of 40k scale and 40k scale somewhere in the 7 to 8mm range (I tended to argue closer to 8mm because I think 40k these days is closer to 32mm than it is to 28mm, depending on how it's measured).

If marines are 8mm tall and game is 8mm then it's huge retcon to have marines 6feet tall. Ie human size.

6mm scale refers to human height after all. So you are claiming gw retconned marines be average　human height...

This again...

GW have claimed that AT18 and AI are about 1/4th of 40k scale. This is also something they have explicitly stated in their recent communications about this new HH Legions Imperialis game. Note that GW doesn't do consistent scales, they've never done that. 40k is all over the place. Power armoured super soldiers are something just as big or even smaller than armed civilians (Necromunda gangers). Ever tried cramming 10 Space Marines in a Rhino? Good luck!

So what does this mean? Nothing really...I think you can get away with your old Space Marine models, or go for the newer ones. It's similar to the scale creep we see in 40k generally.

look ten marines in a Rhino is easy, first step, find a suitable blender

at this scale its going to be purely down to "can you tell what it is (yet)?" coupled with, "does this make the bigger stuff look impressive".

perhaps mixed with a smidge of "does this fit the sprue count?" which I suspect will dictate the size of larger vehicles

 kodos wrote:

and there was a reason why templates with scatter dice were removed, although templates have a big advantage for such games and there are more options between "no templates at all" and "scatter dice"

Well, you don't know in which cases they're used for. In old Epic, it was limited to a specific kind of units - mostly heavy artillery with indirect fire and some specific Titan weapons. Given their size, I suspect it will be a similar limitation as well.

That's why criticizing it without knowing the full rules isn't a good argument.

 Malika2 wrote:
So what does this mean? Nothing really...I think you can get away with your old Space Marine models, or go for the newer ones. It's similar to the scale creep we see in 40k generally.

In the end people can just use whatever that want, some of us will find it irksome if half of our army is 5mm tall (like the old Marines) and others (like new Marines) that are closer to 8mm, lol.

I think my 8mm 3D printed marines will be close to these ones, maybe a hair taller, it won't make a huge difference with infantry though, it's going to be the vehicles where scale differences are more noticeable. While I have some old 3rd edition models I don't mix them with my 3D prints anyway, I loved those little models when I was a kid and have a lot of nostalgia, but they don't look right next to the modern models.

I don't know if I'll mix my 3D printed armies with these new models, depends how well they blend in I guess, but the round bases will probably be a bigger annoyance for my OCD than any slight scale difference, lol.

Probably I'll buy this box and unless I really love the rules and/or it's cheap I won't buy any more after that. Don't really feel like paying a fortune to create a plastic duplicate of armies I can (or already have) 3D printed with less effort than it is to clean the mould lines off plastics.

In the end people can just use whatever that want, some of us will find it irksome if half of our army is 5mm tall (like the old Marines) and others (like new Marines) that are closer to 8mm, lol.

Totally agree! For my own stuff I kinda work with the idea that regular humans are anywhere between 6.5mm and 7.5mm tall. Power armoured super soldiers are around 8mm / 8.5mm. But each to their own of course.

more interested in the size of the vehicles to be honest, specifically the Leman Russ

largely because I have a Leman Russ or four here and can scale other things from them

I've printed some 8mm scale Land Raiders, will stick up pics when the paint is dry, they look nice, large but nice, don't look out of place around the warhounds though

I've got 15mm scale tanks that are smaller, well its a Panzer II but it still (technically) counts

yes, quite pumped for this, just hope they do not drop the ball

I realised there's some better pics to judge the scale in the video rather than the static pics on WarCom. I tried to align the Y=0 line with the feet of the Marines that are near the middle of the base to reduce perspective errors.

The Marines that are standing upright look to be every bit of 8mm to the eye, but the ones with the splayed legs are maybe 7.5ish to the eye.

a bit of variation looks good from this side and they seem to have reasonable proportions which I think matters more than a mm or so of height

and nicely done

Have to say I’m sorely tempted by this. I’ve wanted the titans for ages, will probably take the plunge on this box and get myself the bigger titans to go alongside it.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/04/small-but-perfectly-formed-a-closer-look-at-the-incredible-legions-imperialis-miniatures/

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/04/small-but-perfectly-formed-a-closer-look-at-the-incredible-legions-imperialis-miniatures/

Spoiler:

I'm disappointed they didn't take the opportunity to use a model that's in the exact same pose for that picture.

So a LI Space Marine is 1/4th of a regular Space Marine on a base? This might mean that the miniatures aren't 8mm, but closer to 7mm?

 Malika2 wrote:
So a LI Space Marine is 1/4th of a regular Space Marine on a base? This might mean that the miniatures aren't 8mm, but closer to 7mm?

Your second sentence asks a question that is already answered by your first sentence It's 1/4 of 40k scale, this will give you a better answer than pointlessly bickering about 1-2 mms. Space Marines in 40k have huge size differences already (especially when taking vintage models in account), i don't really get why people need to have this discussion

Are those Marines painted as Death Guard btw?


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Tsagualsa wrote:

 Malika2 wrote:
So a LI Space Marine is 1/4th of a regular Space Marine on a base? This might mean that the miniatures aren't 8mm, but closer to 7mm?

Your second sentence asks a question that is already answered by your first sentence It's 1/4 of 40k scale, this will give you a better answer than pointlessly bickering about 1-2 mms. Space Marines in 40k have huge size differences already (especially when taking vintage models in account), i don't really get why people need to have this discussion

Im interested because I have loads of old Epic 40k Terrain already and it would be nice if the same terrain can be used for this or if it will look wrong.

think the discussion relates to how large, or small, 3d party models will need to be, or 3d prints scaled to in order to make them at least blend in

 Malika2 wrote:
So a LI Space Marine is 1/4th of a regular Space Marine on a base? This might mean that the miniatures aren't 8mm, but closer to 7mm?

I'm not convinced they scaled those images correctly, but the new Beakie Marines are 32mm to the eye NOT including the base, I think GW bases are about 4mm, so 36mm to the eye? But the image shows the 4 Epic models being as tall as the backpack, which is probably another few mm on top of that, so perhaps 36 to 40mm overall height?

1/4 of 36 to 40mm comes out at 9mm to 10mm... but based on the other pictures we've seen I don't think they're quite that tall, I reckon it's more likely that WarCom threw that picture together in a way that isn't super accurate.


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Tsagualsa wrote:

 Malika2 wrote:
So a LI Space Marine is 1/4th of a regular Space Marine on a base? This might mean that the miniatures aren't 8mm, but closer to 7mm?

Your second sentence asks a question that is already answered by your first sentence It's 1/4 of 40k scale, this will give you a better answer than pointlessly bickering about 1-2 mms. Space Marines in 40k have huge size differences already (especially when taking vintage models in account), i don't really get why people need to have this discussion

1-2mms is a big difference at this scale and quite noticeable.

i don't really get why people need to have this discussion

Why have any discussions about plastic toys at all?

But as someone who has 3D printed a bunch of "Epic scale" stuff and thus had to decide on a scale that's more meaningful than "40k divided by 4" and also as someone who has an engineering background, I simultaneously enjoy thinking about numbers, have already thought about it too much and am irked when people get things wrong

Not very scientific, but I shrunk warcom article down until the marine pretty much matched the closest based mini I had to hand (A necromunda bounty hunter)

I'm giving a little leeway as this is an old 28mm mini, and the heresy marines are bigger (And presumably on 32mm bases) so left marine bigger than the necromunda chap.

My closest to hand Epic mini was a vanguard human, and he comes about to the chest of the new marine. The new marines are about 3/4 times wider though. The vanguard mini does look like a pixie compared to the super human marine!

I'm sure someone with the actual HH mini to hand can come along soon and do a proper scale photo now. I don't have any of the larger scale stuff, so I can't match it exactly myself.

VAYASEN wrote:
Are those Marines painted as Death Guard btw?


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Tsagualsa wrote:

 Malika2 wrote:
So a LI Space Marine is 1/4th of a regular Space Marine on a base? This might mean that the miniatures aren't 8mm, but closer to 7mm?

Your second sentence asks a question that is already answered by your first sentence It's 1/4 of 40k scale, this will give you a better answer than pointlessly bickering about 1-2 mms. Space Marines in 40k have huge size differences already (especially when taking vintage models in account), i don't really get why people need to have this discussion

Im interested because I have loads of old Epic 40k Terrain already and it would be nice if the same terrain can be used for this or if it will look wrong.

Can you not compare to the already released AT scenery?

 RexHavoc wrote:
Not very scientific, but I shrunk warcom article down until the marine pretty much matched the closest based mini I had to hand (A necromunda bounty hunter)

I'm giving a little leeway as this is an old 28mm mini, and the heresy marines are bigger (And presumably on 32mm bases) so left marine bigger than the necromunda chap.

My closest to hand Epic mini was a vanguard human, and he comes about to the chest of the new marine. The new marines are about 3/4 times wider though. The vanguard mini does look like a pixie compared to the super human marine!

I'm sure someone with the actual HH mini to hand can come along soon and do a proper scale photo now. I don't have any of the larger scale stuff, so I can't match it exactly myself.

From your post I imagine you intended to attach a picture to that?

Vanguard sell a couple of different scaled humans. Their not-DKOK are very much 6mm, so look tiny next to my 3D printed 8mm-to-the-eye Space Marines. But I think their not-Catachans are taller than their not-DKOK.

We've now entered the twilight zone of 15mm gaming, wherein the scale is 1/144 to 1/87 and infantry are anywhere from 12 to 20mm tall

VAYASEN wrote:


Im interested because I have loads of old Epic 40k Terrain already and it would be nice if the same terrain can be used for this or if it will look wrong.

In my opinion, the terrain GW sells for Adeptus Titanicus (which is now being repurposed and added to for the new Epic) is perfect for classic Epic.

In fact it's better for old Epic than it is for AT, because the Titan game needs big tall buildings to block line of sight, which gets expensive with the GW terrain. With Epic you can build lower and wider to spread over a larger area.

However, different people have different levels of tolerance for slight differences in scale, so best to get a hold of some of the AT terrain and have a look yourself.

It's funny that everyone is worrying about the new infantry possibly being out of scale with the old infantry ... while the thing that bothers me more, and has bothered me since the new Adeptus Titanicus came out, is the old infantry being correctly in scale with the new Titans. I'm used to the Epic Titans being too small. It's burned into my brain. Properly scaled Titans with infantry look wrong, wrong I tell you!!!!!

Zenithfleet wrote:
It's funny that everyone is worrying about the new infantry possibly being out of scale with the old infantry ... while the thing that bothers me more, and has bothered me since the new Adeptus Titanicus came out, is the old infantry being correctly in scale with the new Titans. I'm used to the Epic Titans being too small. It's burned into my brain. Properly scaled Titans with infantry look wrong, wrong I tell you!!!!!

GW could have used Epic to fix all the scale oddities in 40k, since the smaller scale allows for bigger variation in model sizes without becoming too big to be practical for gaming purposes.

But instead they just chose to 1/4 scale 40k


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 judgedoug wrote:
We've now entered the twilight zone of 15mm gaming, wherein the scale is 1/144 to 1/87 and infantry are anywhere from 12 to 20mm tall

What about 1/72 scale, where models exist between about 20mm and 26mm?

VAYASEN wrote:

Im interested because I have loads of old Epic 40k Terrain already and it would be nice if the same terrain can be used for this or if it will look wrong.

Oh it will work wonderfully.

I freely mix Titanicus, Epic 40,000, and Gale Force 9 Battlefield in a Box pieces together and it works great. Couple random pics to demonstrate.

edit: for GF9 I mean pieces like the pools/toxic pools, industrial storage tanks, hills, etc, seen in the third pic I've attached

The miniatures in the core box for this new game are just a thin slice of the overall Horus Heresy range, but the groundwork is now laid for many other tanks, walkers, and war machines to make the transition from full-sized to bite-sized.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

The miniatures in the core box for this new game are just a thin slice of the overall Horus Heresy range, but the groundwork is now laid for many other tanks, walkers, and war machines to make the transition from full-sized to bite-sized.

I fully expected there to be more than what's in the starter box, question is just how much more.

We will have lots of coverage of Warhammer: The Horus Heresy Legions Imperialis as we get closer to launch in August.


Does this mean launch is August or more info in Aug...when we are closer to launch.


I took it as launch in Aug but somebody told me more likely to be later?

VAYASEN wrote:
We will have lots of coverage of Warhammer: The Horus Heresy Legions Imperialis as we get closer to launch in August.


Does this mean launch is August or more info in Aug...when we are closer to launch.


I took it as launch in Aug but somebody told me more likely to be later?

The other article made clear that the game will release in August:

The game deploys in August, with a huge Core Set containing a massive collection of exquisite epic scale miniatures, alongside a rulebook, dice, tokens templates, and measuring sticks.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/01/warhammer-preview-battle-on-an-epic-scale-in-the-horus-heresy-legions-imperialis/

I'm sure we'll have a noble soul who'll eventually make a comparison size with different kinds of "Epic Scale" miniature to have the definite answer of the size of these new "Epic Scale" marines.

But honestly, from the article, I'd lean closer towards 10mm than 8. They're definitely bigger than what is actually on the market for sure.

Sarouan wrote:
I'm sure we'll have a noble soul who'll eventually make a comparison size with different kinds of "Epic Scale" miniature to have the definite answer of the size of these new "Epic Scale" marines.

But honestly, from the article, I'd lean closer towards 10mm than 8. They're definitely bigger than what is actually on the market for sure.

I'd be very very happy if Marines are 9-10mm tall, putting normal humans at 7-8mm (ie, 1/4 of a 28-32mm fig). That would make them in line with the latter-half of Epic infantry releases (from 1997 onwards), such as the Valhallans, Chaos Marines, and Eldar resculpts.

edit: took a pic of Valhallan for comparison

they were always going to be bigger, GW needed to distinguish them from what else is out there.

however by keeping the base sizes roughly similar they leave the game option to play with older stuff. will be interesting to see just how important model size is, I suspect with a bit of that rare thing "common sense" it won't be an issue at all

to be honest if the whole thing actually was 10mm scale I'd be very happy, that ship sailed with the titan release though sadly

reasoning being the huge range of 10mm scale terrain out there for model railways

Can you gents take the scale arguments to its own thread? Please?

What size were the original square epic bases? 20mm?

Based on the images we have and assuming the bases are 25mm, 10mm seems a bit of a stretch, maybe the termies will be close to that though.

But if the bases aren't actually 25mm then it throws off all the scale images I uploaded, so perhaps they're 28mm or something like that.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Based on the images we have and assuming the bases are 25mm, 10mm seems a bit of a stretch, maybe the termies will be close to that though.

But if the bases aren't actually 25mm then it throws off all the scale images I uploaded, so perhaps they're 28mm or something like that.

FYI GW said they're 25mm bases

 judgedoug wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Based on the images we have and assuming the bases are 25mm, 10mm seems a bit of a stretch, maybe the termies will be close to that though.

But if the bases aren't actually 25mm then it throws off all the scale images I uploaded, so perhaps they're 28mm or something like that.

FYI GW said they're 25mm bases

Yep, GW social medie confirmed 25mm bases, and btw also confirmed that the box contents are plastic.

for what its worth, a 3d printed Land Raider in 8mm, alongside some 6mm stuff.

I couldn't find a Warhound to put it next to. 10mm grid on the painting mat



have some Rhino printing, once done will check if four of them are roughly the same length as a 30k one

I do appreciate folks giving approximations, but because my brain is wonky on scale and that, I’ll need to wait to see direct side-by-side comparisons in due course.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I do appreciate folks giving approximations, but because my brain is wonky on scale and that, I’ll need to wait to see direct side-by-side comparisons in due course.

what is of course required here is four marines glued on top of each other, totem pole style

to be honest I'd say as long as new & old are not physically on the same stand it will be fine anyway

I'm liking how they have a bit more detail on these than last time around, but not utterly insane amounts

 judgedoug wrote:

edit: for GF9 I mean pieces like the pools/toxic pools, industrial storage tanks, hills, etc, seen in the third pic I've attached

You mean you don't use the 15mm European houses on your Epic tables?

It’s definitely a fine balance.

Not just in “we could make them bigger, but do we want/need to for the game” ways, but also “do we want these to be a pain in the arse to batch paint quickly or not”.

Right now? They’re looking about nice. Weapons prominent and big enough to be noticeable, without requiring a great deal of painting ability to pick them out.

We desperately need 2 threads, one for the game, one for the never ending discussion about scale

Indeed, if we could kindly take scale discussion to a thread of its own, that would be great.

Just wondering if we should start a new thread called "Legions Imperialis: News & Rumours", as the cat is now out of the bag and we can expect more news articles from WHC, and we also know the game will be released in August.

So, now that we can talk about the game again…looking at the pictures, it includes one CHONKY hardback rule book. Are they just including rules for all units in the core rulebook?

If so, then no doubt we’ll see all the AT titans, all the AI planes (including the Custodes Ares Gunship - another faction, woo!).

I wonder what extra miniatures will be in the first release? Hoping for some super heavies myself.

MrHobbles wrote:
So, now that we can talk about the game again…looking at the pictures, it includes one CHONKY hardback rule book. Are they just including rules for all units in the core rulebook?

If so, then no doubt we’ll see all the AT titans, all the AI planes (including the Custodes Ares Gunship - another faction, woo!).

I wonder what extra miniatures will be in the first release? Hoping for some super heavies myself.

I mean, I hope so, there's certainly more than enough space in that bigass book to do it three times over.

...but they probably won't, if their other games are any indication.

I really don't mind if they 'do a Necromunda' and a few years from now someone dies when their rules book selection falls on them when they are on their way to play a game, as long as they do a good job with the core rules!

MrHobbles wrote:
So, now that we can talk about the game again…looking at the pictures, it includes one CHONKY hardback rule book. Are they just including rules for all units in the core rulebook?

If so, then no doubt we’ll see all the AT titans, all the AI planes (including the Custodes Ares Gunship - another faction, woo!).

I wonder what extra miniatures will be in the first release? Hoping for some super heavies myself.

Since they said we would be able to make a super-heavy tank company for Solar Auxilia a baneblade chassie should be coming for sure (Maybe only the Stormhammer if going by the HH2.0 Liber Imperium?)
And if Solar Auxilia get some, SM will for sure also get some

MrHobbles wrote:
So, now that we can talk about the game again…looking at the pictures, it includes one CHONKY hardback rule book. Are they just including rules for all units in the core rulebook?

If so, then no doubt we’ll see all the AT titans, all the AI planes (including the Custodes Ares Gunship - another faction, woo!).

I wonder what extra miniatures will be in the first release? Hoping for some super heavies myself.

I guess the core book will have a chunky part of what currently exists in the plastic GW and resin HH Heresy ranges, and stuff that comes later will get rules either as rules cards or in thematic supplements that handle specific battles or something like that (or both, of course). It's pretty much the only way to include stuff they'll design in the future, and cards + thematic books seems to be trend over various systems for GW at the moment.

 Matrindur wrote:

MrHobbles wrote:
So, now that we can talk about the game again…looking at the pictures, it includes one CHONKY hardback rule book. Are they just including rules for all units in the core rulebook?

If so, then no doubt we’ll see all the AT titans, all the AI planes (including the Custodes Ares Gunship - another faction, woo!).

I wonder what extra miniatures will be in the first release? Hoping for some super heavies myself.

Since they said we would be able to make a super-heavy tank company for Solar Auxilia a baneblade chassie should be coming for sure (Maybe only the Stormhammer if going by the HH2.0 Liber Imperium?)
And if Solar Auxilia get some, SM will for sure also get some

They'd better have more than just the Stormhammer available at launch. For starters, it seems a bit odd to have a Baneblade chassis tank without having the actual Baneblade that the Stormhammer is modified from. Secondly, the Shadowsword is probably the single biggest reason why titans have to worry about the crunchies running around underfoot. Even a warlord needs to be wary of volcano cannons waiting in ambush. Both tanks need to be part of the game (with stats, even if models aren't available quite yet) at the launch.

And yes, I know, you're referencing a recently published book that apparently only has the Stormhammer and none of the others. But that doesn't change the fact that it would be a mistake to not have the Baneblade and Shadowsword (the original two superheavy tanks) in the game.

With the book looking as thicc as it does, it's either going to have a flockton of lore or loads of datasheets for stuff

Eumerin wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:

MrHobbles wrote:
So, now that we can talk about the game again…looking at the pictures, it includes one CHONKY hardback rule book. Are they just including rules for all units in the core rulebook?

If so, then no doubt we’ll see all the AT titans, all the AI planes (including the Custodes Ares Gunship - another faction, woo!).

I wonder what extra miniatures will be in the first release? Hoping for some super heavies myself.

Since they said we would be able to make a super-heavy tank company for Solar Auxilia a baneblade chassie should be coming for sure (Maybe only the Stormhammer if going by the HH2.0 Liber Imperium?)
And if Solar Auxilia get some, SM will for sure also get some

They'd better have more than just the Stormhammer available at launch. For starters, it seems a bit odd to have a Baneblade chassis tank without having the actual Baneblade that the Stormhammer is modified from. Secondly, the Shadowsword is probably the single biggest reason why titans have to worry about the crunchies running around underfoot. Even a warlord needs to be wary of volcano cannons waiting in ambush. Both tanks need to be part of the game (with stats, even if models aren't available quite yet) at the launch.

And yes, I know, you're referencing a recently published book that apparently only has the Stormhammer and none of the others. But that doesn't change the fact that it would be a mistake to not have the Baneblade and Shadowsword (the original two superheavy tanks) in the game.

Just to clarify HH2.0 does also have rules for all the other Baneblade variants just not in the main book but as expanded profiles in a Legacies document. But for Epic I would be very surprised if we don't get rules for every versions and models should also be likely.
After all GW doesn't acknowledge third party models and since GW doesn't like rules without a model everything that gets rules should also be getting models

The "rules with no models" issue might not be as big of a problem for GW this time around - at least legally. IIRC, the legal issue that GW had before was that there had to be an existing model for GW to claim infringement. However, if FW were to release rules for the Baneblade without immediately releasing a small Baneblade, GW could probably use the existing 28mm-scale Baneblade as the "existing model" for an infringement case.

It would still behoove GW to get the official thing out asap, mind you, since a generic "tank" made by a third party could otherwise fill in for it with little trouble.

Tbf they did that exact scenario with Aeronautica fairly recently. When they released the SM/Eldar expansion there were rules in the book for Wraithfighters and Nightshades, but the minis didn’t come out until a few months later. So it’s not unprecedented.

"No model no rules" is a customer experience issue, not a legal issue. The current generation of games aimed at veterans never adhered to it.

AI Compaion, Xenos fliers and the Valkyries have gone LCTB on the GW site, so I guess that answers one question.

The Heresy rulebook isn't, however. So technically the game still seems to be sticking around?

 Arbitrator wrote:
AI Compaion, Xenos fliers and the Valkyries have gone LCTB on the GW site, so I guess that answers one question.

The Heresy rulebook isn't, however. So technically the game still seems to be sticking around?

Given that the Imperial fliers can now be used in both games, no need to not keep offering the game for sale. Just need to start including both types of bases in the box.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
"No model no rules" is a customer experience issue, not a legal issue. The current generation of games aimed at veterans never adhered to it.

IIRC, there was a legal battle with one third party that basically devolved down to the court stating, "You can't claim they're infringing on your IP if their model shares the same name as a unit that you never released a figure for."

Eumerin wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
"No model no rules" is a customer experience issue, not a legal issue. The current generation of games aimed at veterans never adhered to it.

IIRC, there was a legal battle with one third party that basically devolved down to the court stating, "You can't claim they're infringing on your IP if their model shares the same name as a unit that you never released a figure for."

the case was that GW claimed to have the copyright on models others released if they are based on an artwork or fluff text from GW and the court ruled that GW only owns copyright on models if there is already a model
this caused that GW would not release a Codex with missing models as anyone could make those based on the artworks given

the no model no rules itself has nothing to do with it as rules alone do nothing in that case except that people hunt down 3rd party manufacturer to get those if the rules are good
and GW wants to avoid people being forced to leave their ecosystem because they don't provide the models

for games aimed at veterans, this does not matter as they already know that other companies exist and are not buying exclusive from GW anyway

 kodos wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
"No model no rules" is a customer experience issue, not a legal issue. The current generation of games aimed at veterans never adhered to it.

IIRC, there was a legal battle with one third party that basically devolved down to the court stating, "You can't claim they're infringing on your IP if their model shares the same name as a unit that you never released a figure for."

the case was that GW claimed to have the copyright on models others released if they are based on an artwork or fluff text from GW and the court ruled that GW only owns copyright on models if there is already a model
this caused that GW would not release a Codex with missing models as anyone could make those based on the artworks given

the no model no rules itself has nothing to do with it as rules alone do nothing in that case except that people hunt down 3rd party manufacturer to get those if the rules are good
and GW wants to avoid people being forced to leave their ecosystem because they don't provide the models

for games aimed at veterans, this does not matter as they already know that other companies exist and are not buying exclusive from GW anyway

Even in "games aimed at veterans" I don't think GW have left a large amount of time between releasing rules and releasing the models. The Eldar aircraft were given rules mid to late Jan, but then the models were shown mid-March, so that's not even 2 months gap, and it wouldn't surprise me if that gap was unplanned because it seemed a bit odd of GW to "announce" new models in a book rather than on their website.

Whenever there's been a bit of a gap, GW has withheld the rules, for example the Mega Bommer didn't get rules in the book that it came out after, I think that was roughly 3 or 4 months.

I imagine for the "legal" side they likely only need to tease the models on their website rather than actually releasing it to have copyright grounds to take action against people making knock offs.

So I'd suspect that we won't get rules for more than what is released/teased within a couple of months of August. Although, perhaps the existence of the models in 30k/40k is enough to lock down copyright for Epic too.

In any case... this is GW we're talking about. I'll be surprised if all the rules needed to play come in the boxed set, far more likely it'll be spread across multiple books. Maybe GW learned their lesson from AI and won't do the stupid campaign book style, but I'll still be surprised if everything you need is in the boxed set, that would be a very un-GW-like thing to do.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s definitely a fine balance.

Not just in “we could make them bigger, but do we want/need to for the game” ways, but also “do we want these to be a pain in the arse to batch paint quickly or not”.

Right now? They’re looking about nice. Weapons prominent and big enough to be noticeable, without requiring a great deal of painting ability to pick them out.

If they are anything like traditional Epic infantry, all the way up to the Warlord Epic Battles series of models, they take Contrast/Speed Paint BEAUTIFULLY. You can speed paint just a ton of stuff in an afternoon. I painted a few hundred Epic Tyranid figs with contrast in three sessions of a couple hours apiece while watching TV.

I recall even GW's old Epic 40k painting guides back in the day suggested a base + wash to get them battlefield ready. Contrast paint is essentially just combining both into one. My old 40k Imperial Fists were just yellow with a brown wash.

Although, these minis are faaaar more detailed...I may be tempted to put in a little more effort than previously.


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 tauist wrote:
With the book looking as thicc as it does, it's either going to have a flockton of lore or loads of datasheets for stuff

Going back to this, I've been going over the currently available information with a fine toothed comb (because I'm obsessed and can't wait), and hit across this paragraph in the original Warcom article:

The inclusion of Warhounds heralds the next bit of good news: all of your Adeptus Titanicus and Heresy-relevant Aeronautica Imperialis miniatures can be used in Legions Imperialis thanks to rules and unit profiles found in the massive Legions Imperialis Rulebook.

The bold is my emphasis, but this suggests to me that the core book that comes in the box (which I agree, is THICC) will contain rules for all the AT and AI ("heresy-relevant") miniatures currently released.

And given that it'd be weird if the book only contained rules for the units in the box + AT + AI, I'd also assume it contains rules for many more upcoming Legion Imperialis units.

What “factions” are there in Horus Heresy that are likely to make their way to LI?
We know Legiones Astartes (I assume at least 18 flavours of), Solar Auxilia, Knight Households, and Titan Legions have already been mentioned.
I assume Divisio Aeronautica, Custodes / Sisters of Silence, and Mechanicum. Possibly Daemons as a final wave.
Are there any other Imperial Guard style factions or anything else I’m missing?

So for anyone who thought AI wouldn't go away, everything except SM and Imperial Army flyers is on last chance to buy

MrHobbles wrote:

The inclusion of Warhounds heralds the next bit of good news: all of your Adeptus Titanicus and Heresy-relevant Aeronautica Imperialis miniatures can be used in Legions Imperialis thanks to rules and unit profiles found in the massive Legions Imperialis Rulebook.

The bold is my emphasis, but this suggests to me that the core book that comes in the box (which I agree, is THICC) will contain rules for all the AT and AI ("heresy-relevant") miniatures currently released.

And given that it'd be weird if the book only contained rules for the units in the box + AT + AI, I'd also assume it contains rules for many more upcoming Legion Imperialis units.

Now just have a little thinky-poos about the patterns evident in all of GW's other releases...

If you're not expecting rules split across a slew of different books, then you're deliriously over optimistic.

 Matrindur wrote:
So for anyone who thought AI wouldn't go away, everything except SM and Imperial Army flyers is on last chance to buy

Which is not remotely surprising, but certainly disappointing. Sales never seemed particularly great based on slowly starter sets sold out on discount sites like Element, and I had planned on picking up a small Air Caste fleet when I was done with main game armies for a while. Hopefully this isn't a sign of things to come for other SG systems.

twentypence wrote:
What “factions” are there in Horus Heresy that are likely to make their way to LI?
We know Legiones Astartes (I assume at least 18 flavours of), Solar Auxilia, Knight Households, and Titan Legions have already been mentioned.
I assume Divisio Aeronautica, Custodes / Sisters of Silence, and Mechanicum. Possibly Daemons as a final wave.
Are there any other Imperial Guard style factions or anything else I’m missing?

As AI fliers are included in the core rulebook, we have Divisio Aeronautica from day 1. Also the Ares Gunship from Adeptus Custodes on day 1 (also from AI).

It wouldn't surprise me to see Custodes filled out more so as time goes by, same with Mechanicum.

I doubt we'll be getting more Imperial Army besides the Solar Auxilia, but never say never...

Maybe we'll be seeing more super heavy variants for the Space Marines, as in variants of the Mastodon, Thunderhawk, and maybe even Stormbird.

twentypence wrote:
What “factions” are there in Horus Heresy that are likely to make their way to LI?

Anything produced as part of Forge World's 28mm Horus Heresy line will show up and anything else won't.

 Breotan wrote:

twentypence wrote:
What “factions” are there in Horus Heresy that are likely to make their way to LI?

Anything produced as part of Forge World's 28mm Horus Heresy line will show up and anything else won't.

Kind of. Old Epic of course had stuff and gubbins 40K didn’t. And even a few (now very few) 40K still has had. So we may see stuff entirely new on the tabletop.

well unless I'm mistaken we already have - the heavy sentinels

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

twentypence wrote:
What “factions” are there in Horus Heresy that are likely to make their way to LI?

Anything produced as part of Forge World's 28mm Horus Heresy line will show up and anything else won't.

Kind of. Old Epic of course had stuff and gubbins 40K didn’t. And even a few (now very few) 40K still has had. So we may see stuff entirely new on the tabletop.

Yeah some of the more niche stuff they won't want to produce 28mm kits for, but it'll be very low risk to put into Epic.

New infantry units are easy to squeeze alongside others into a single Epic infantry sprue. Ordinatus Majoris engines can be done with a plastic kit similar to the Epic scale titans, but might not be worth creating a substantial full resin kit for.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

twentypence wrote:
What “factions” are there in Horus Heresy that are likely to make their way to LI?

Anything produced as part of Forge World's 28mm Horus Heresy line will show up and anything else won't.

Kind of. Old Epic of course had stuff and gubbins 40K didn’t. And even a few (now very few) 40K still has had. So we may see stuff entirely new on the tabletop.

This is my hope to. One of the main benefits of Epic scale is that you can have some mental stuff that just isn't really practical in 28mm scale.

Remembering how Squats used to differ as an Epic faction, really they were far better represented in Epic than in 40k with their Land Trains and giant super-heavies. Even within the HH setting, some sort of giant Leviathan or Capital Imperialis would be super cool.

 Pacific wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

twentypence wrote:
What “factions” are there in Horus Heresy that are likely to make their way to LI?

Anything produced as part of Forge World's 28mm Horus Heresy line will show up and anything else won't.

Kind of. Old Epic of course had stuff and gubbins 40K didn’t. And even a few (now very few) 40K still has had. So we may see stuff entirely new on the tabletop.

This is my hope to. One of the main benefits of Epic scale is that you can have some mental stuff that just isn't really practical in 28mm scale.

Remembering how Squats used to differ as an Epic faction, really they were far better represented in Epic than in 40k with their Land Trains and giant super-heavies. Even within the HH setting, some sort of giant Leviathan or Capital Imperialis would be super cool.

Indeed, looking forward to some entries and experiments in Epic. Though, judging from some select Facebook comments, some people aren't happy that Epic is getting miniatures that aren't in 32mm yet. Expect that to increase as new stuff is put out for Epic

Complaints will be a given, no matter what GW does. Capitol Imperialis and huge Ordinatus thingies does sound cool, hope we will see them or something comparable in the near future

Charax wrote:
well unless I'm mistaken we already have - the heavy sentinels

I am strangely sure that if Solar IG is the mystery HH faction about to be released in plastic, then the HS kit in 32 mm is already made and about to enter production once GW will have some free machine slots.

People, quick, order some Sentinel boxes a month or two from now, maybe GW will do the whole mispack deal again

 zedmeister wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

twentypence wrote:
What “factions” are there in Horus Heresy that are likely to make their way to LI?

Anything produced as part of Forge World's 28mm Horus Heresy line will show up and anything else won't.

Kind of. Old Epic of course had stuff and gubbins 40K didn’t. And even a few (now very few) 40K still has had. So we may see stuff entirely new on the tabletop.

This is my hope to. One of the main benefits of Epic scale is that you can have some mental stuff that just isn't really practical in 28mm scale.

Remembering how Squats used to differ as an Epic faction, really they were far better represented in Epic than in 40k with their Land Trains and giant super-heavies. Even within the HH setting, some sort of giant Leviathan or Capital Imperialis would be super cool.

Indeed, looking forward to some entries and experiments in Epic. Though, judging from some select Facebook comments, some people aren't happy that Epic is getting miniatures that aren't in 32mm yet. Expect that to increase as new stuff is put out for Epic

I know there's always going to be someone unhappy, but that's a stupid thing to be unhappy about and people making that argument should be made to feel bad about themselves for thinking it

warl0rdb0b wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
So for anyone who thought AI wouldn't go away, everything except SM and Imperial Army flyers is on last chance to buy

Which is not remotely surprising, but certainly disappointing. Sales never seemed particularly great based on slowly starter sets sold out on discount sites like Element, and I had planned on picking up a small Air Caste fleet when I was done with main game armies for a while. Hopefully this isn't a sign of things to come for other SG systems.

Weird thing is that all AI releases were stock allocated to retailers, at least locally, and I'd say 90% or more of it sold out on release. One would think that would be an indicator of healthy sales, if the majority of your first production run seems to be selling out, etc.

chaos0xomega wrote:

warl0rdb0b wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
So for anyone who thought AI wouldn't go away, everything except SM and Imperial Army flyers is on last chance to buy

Which is not remotely surprising, but certainly disappointing. Sales never seemed particularly great based on slowly starter sets sold out on discount sites like Element, and I had planned on picking up a small Air Caste fleet when I was done with main game armies for a while. Hopefully this isn't a sign of things to come for other SG systems.

Weird thing is that all AI releases were stock allocated to retailers, at least locally, and I'd say 90% or more of it sold out on release. One would think that would be an indicator of healthy sales, if the majority of your first production run seems to be selling out, etc.

Wings of Vengeance was discounted by 30% as part of an overstock sale on GW's own website, something they very rarely do these days.

I also remember seeing some 3rd-party UK retailers unloading some of the aircraft boxes (particularly Tau ones) as part of Black Friday sales.

Pretty sure the Thunderhawk sold very well though.

chaos0xomega wrote:

warl0rdb0b wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
So for anyone who thought AI wouldn't go away, everything except SM and Imperial Army flyers is on last chance to buy

Which is not remotely surprising, but certainly disappointing. Sales never seemed particularly great based on slowly starter sets sold out on discount sites like Element, and I had planned on picking up a small Air Caste fleet when I was done with main game armies for a while. Hopefully this isn't a sign of things to come for other SG systems.

Weird thing is that all AI releases were stock allocated to retailers, at least locally, and I'd say 90% or more of it sold out on release. One would think that would be an indicator of healthy sales, if the majority of your first production run seems to be selling out, etc.

In Australia, the Horus Heresy book sold out almost immediately and has never come back in stock. I don't get why the decision making sometimes.

Locally (based on talking to different stores) it seems like the initial AI release was really popular, selling out quickly and being restocked and selling okay at least initially. Then after that it stagnated, which is why I tend to blame the rules, but whether that's representative of the rest of the world I'm just guessing. There was also covid, which maybe stopped the 2nd and 3rd waves from catching on.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

warl0rdb0b wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
So for anyone who thought AI wouldn't go away, everything except SM and Imperial Army flyers is on last chance to buy

Which is not remotely surprising, but certainly disappointing. Sales never seemed particularly great based on slowly starter sets sold out on discount sites like Element, and I had planned on picking up a small Air Caste fleet when I was done with main game armies for a while. Hopefully this isn't a sign of things to come for other SG systems.

Weird thing is that all AI releases were stock allocated to retailers, at least locally, and I'd say 90% or more of it sold out on release. One would think that would be an indicator of healthy sales, if the majority of your first production run seems to be selling out, etc.

Wings of Vengeance was discounted by 30% as part of an overstock sale on GW's own website, something they very rarely do these days.

I also remember seeing some 3rd-party UK retailers unloading some of the aircraft boxes (particularly Tau ones) as part of Black Friday sales.

Pretty sure the Thunderhawk sold very well though.

Wings of Vengeance didn't go on sale until well after the 2nd starter was released (can't remember if it was before the 3rd starter). I think Wings of Vengeance sold well initially, was restocked, but the demand didn't come back.

Yeah I remember Wings of Vengeance being sold out for a while, and then one day it suddenly reappeared in stock on the GW webstore and at some local stores, which is weird because everyone was told it would be a splash release like the other 2 player boxes.

warl0rdb0b wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
So for anyone who thought AI wouldn't go away, everything except SM and Imperial Army flyers is on last chance to buy

Which is not remotely surprising, but certainly disappointing. Sales never seemed particularly great based on slowly starter sets sold out on discount sites like Element, and I had planned on picking up a small Air Caste fleet when I was done with main game armies for a while. Hopefully this isn't a sign of things to come for other SG systems.

It's the only GW game around here that nobody would even pick up the models to paint or even try to play a game. I've seen games of BFG, Epic, 30k, 40k, Warcry, KT, Necromunda, but never seen anyone playing AI or even heard of anyone that plays it. I really wanted to get into it but at the time of release my wife was still living in Venezuela and I had zero local players with any interest so I never picked it up. I'm excited to get some tiny planes now that they'll be useful.

twentypence wrote:What “factions” are there in Horus Heresy that are likely to make their way to LI?
We know Legiones Astartes (I assume at least 18 flavours of), Solar Auxilia, Knight Households, and Titan Legions have already been mentioned.
I assume Divisio Aeronautica, Custodes / Sisters of Silence, and Mechanicum. Possibly Daemons as a final wave.
Are there any other Imperial Guard style factions or anything else I’m missing?

Horus Heresy had Cults & Militia in 1.0, now named Imperialis Militia in 2.0, which is a catch-all (and very flexible) army list for human forces that aren't Solar Auxilia. In HH they have no official models, and are essentially an invitation for converters to make Their Dudes.

I'd be surprised if GW featured them in this game as a way for existing Epic players to use their armies; but I was surprised they brought Imperialis Militia back at all for 2.0, so who knows.

 catbarf wrote:

twentypence wrote:What “factions” are there in Horus Heresy that are likely to make their way to LI?
We know Legiones Astartes (I assume at least 18 flavours of), Solar Auxilia, Knight Households, and Titan Legions have already been mentioned.
I assume Divisio Aeronautica, Custodes / Sisters of Silence, and Mechanicum. Possibly Daemons as a final wave.
Are there any other Imperial Guard style factions or anything else I’m missing?

Horus Heresy had Cults & Militia in 1.0, now named Imperialis Militia in 2.0, which is a catch-all (and very flexible) army list for human forces that aren't Solar Auxilia. In HH they have no official models, and are essentially an invitation for converters to make Their Dudes.

I'd be surprised if GW featured them in this game as a way for existing Epic players to use their armies; but I was surprised they brought Imperialis Militia back at all for 2.0, so who knows.

This is the most likely list of armies:

- 18 Space Marine Legions + 2 possible extra: Shattered Legion & Blackshields
- Solar Auxilia
- Imperial Militia (hope they use the Death Korps and/or Vraks Renegades aesthetic for þe models)
- Mechanicum
- Dark Mechanicum (with Daemon Engines)
- Legio Custodes
- Sisters of Silence
- Daemons of the Ruinstorm
- Knight Households
- Maybe even a Titan Legions list?

At a pinch, if we're very lucky, we might get a Stygies VIII expansion to introduce limited Eldar involvement, if at all

zedmeister wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

twentypence wrote:What “factions” are there in Horus Heresy that are likely to make their way to LI?
We know Legiones Astartes (I assume at least 18 flavours of), Solar Auxilia, Knight Households, and Titan Legions have already been mentioned.
I assume Divisio Aeronautica, Custodes / Sisters of Silence, and Mechanicum. Possibly Daemons as a final wave.
Are there any other Imperial Guard style factions or anything else I’m missing?

Horus Heresy had Cults & Militia in 1.0, now named Imperialis Militia in 2.0, which is a catch-all (and very flexible) army list for human forces that aren't Solar Auxilia. In HH they have no official models, and are essentially an invitation for converters to make Their Dudes.

I'd be surprised if GW featured them in this game as a way for existing Epic players to use their armies; but I was surprised they brought Imperialis Militia back at all for 2.0, so who knows.

This is the most likely list of armies:

- 18 Space Marine Legions + 2 possible extra: Shattered Legion & Blackshields
- Solar Auxilia
- Imperial Militia (hope they use the Death Korps and/or Vraks Renegades aesthetic for þe models)
- Mechanicum
- Dark Mechanicum (with Daemon Engines)
- Legio Custodes
- Sisters of Silence
- Daemons of the Ruinstorm
- Knight Households
- Maybe even a Titan Legions list?

At a pinch, if we're very lucky, we might get a Stygies VIII expansion to introduce limited Eldar involvement, if at all

I'd be very, very surprised if we got them but seeing that the custodes AI ships are not on last chance on forgeworld the thought of teeny tiny gold bois are actually a possibility. I really hope they come as plastic. I suspect if they have a choice between not releasing some of the smaller forces or having to do small production runs in resin, they are most likely to not do them. The old resin Epic minis were nice, but not very practical. I would be excited for custodes or SoS in epic though!

I am really curious if we will see Daemons though. I would go mad buying daemons for nurgle, especially as I can then use them on double duty for 6mm fantasy as well!

For any of it to happen, the rules have to be fairly playable - at least fun, and balanced would be a bonus.

AT18 had some stumbles in the balance department, but a fun game IMO.

Hoping LI at least clears that bar.

Have we even gotten any word on game play? Or have we just seen some minis and book cover?

We got an article with the basic features of the rules that indicate it is based on a previous (earlier) edition, but nothing detailed about gameplay yet

We have had the info in this article so far:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/03/10-things-you-need-to-know-about-warhammer-the-horus-heresy-legions-imperialis/

Orders
Alternative actions for detachments
Objectives scored depending on mission

Vorian wrote:
We have had the info in this article so far:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/03/10-things-you-need-to-know-about-warhammer-the-horus-heresy-legions-imperialis/

Orders
Alternative actions for detachments
Objectives scored depending on mission

Also seemingly a certain amount of personalization in detachment building.

I'm half wondering if they might go off the wall and do something based on 1st edition SM. I'm not that familiar with it as I got in with 2nd, but have read it is a lot more granular and infantry have saving throws etc.

Having more detailed rules would help differentiate armour marks and different types of tank weaponry, it was an approach that Imperialis Dominatus used (and is perhaps possible because you have a much more limited scope of having things set just within the Heresy).

 Pacific wrote:
I'm half wondering if they might go off the wall and do something based on 1st edition SM. I'm not that familiar with it as I got in with 2nd, but have read it is a lot more granular and infantry have saving throws etc.

Having more detailed rules would help differentiate armour marks and different types of tank weaponry, it was an approach that Imperialis Dominatus used (and is perhaps possible because you have a much more limited scope of having things set just within the Heresy).

I am honestly not sure that I want that kind of detail in a (at least) battalion level game, but we will see.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
I'm half wondering if they might go off the wall and do something based on 1st edition SM. I'm not that familiar with it as I got in with 2nd, but have read it is a lot more granular and infantry have saving throws etc.

Having more detailed rules would help differentiate armour marks and different types of tank weaponry, it was an approach that Imperialis Dominatus used (and is perhaps possible because you have a much more limited scope of having things set just within the Heresy).

I am honestly not sure that I want that kind of detail in a (at least) battalion level game, but we will see.

I'd not put it past them. They do know about the level of complaints that E40k got after all. Plus why go through all the hassle of making the marines big enough to make different armour marks if you are then just going to use them as tokens representing all the same thing.

Personally, not my cup of tea. I want to play out grand battles and don't care about the small differences between weapons & armour. But I also know that I'm in the minority when it comes to GW games. (My group play at my house though, so here its E40k or bust! If they don't like it, they can buy their own rules and would have to paint their own armies! )

1st wasn't hard, yes infantry had a saving through, but because of that you didn't need special rules to differentiate shooting are armoured v unarmoured infantry or anything similar - use the armour save and accept it will be modified to "poof you are dead" in the case of heavier weapons.

I highly doubt they will go that was, somewhat sadly, there is every chance this is going to be highly streamlined

we don't have long to wait though, and for those who want it previous versions can be had

(though I'd be all over a compendium of 1st edition rules, expansions and all the WD army lists)

They could go the Titanicus route of Weapon Strength + D6 and if you get over a units armour value, it goes. Would allow you to properly show the effects of weapons. For example, Bolters being Strength 1, wouldn't do anything against a Land Raider, armour 10. And so on. Would also allow you to field Titans and still show the difficulty in killing them even if they don't have the datacards from Titanicus (unless they're expected to be used for Titans!)

As for Armour Marks, they may just show certain weapons with certain armour marks:

MK II get's volkites
Mk III get's flamers and boarding marines

And so on.

leopard wrote:
1st wasn't hard, yes infantry had a saving through, but because of that you didn't need special rules to differentiate shooting are armoured v unarmoured infantry or anything similar - use the armour save and accept it will be modified to "poof you are dead" in the case of heavier weapons.

I highly doubt they will go that was, somewhat sadly, there is every chance this is going to be highly streamlined

we don't have long to wait though, and for those who want it previous versions can be had

(though I'd be all over a compendium of 1st edition rules, expansions and all the WD army lists)

In Epic 40k there's no differentiation either. It's just that "AT" is a kind of weapon that the unit's armor and is rolled separately from regular firepower, but it could affect any unit. Same as Barrage weapons and the like, they had a small amount of special rules.

Everything else, you rolled X dice and then allocated them on the enemy detachment.

 zedmeister wrote:

As for Armour Marks, they may just show certain weapons with certain armour marks:

MK II get's volkites
Mk III get's flamers and boarding marines

And so on.

If we are getting different armour marks thats what I would expect them to do.
The current MK6 sprue will probably be
1 Command Squad base
4 Tactical Squad bases
1 Missile Launcher base
1 Plasma Gun base
1 Assault Squad base
1 Cataphractii base

doubled up in the starter box

For the other armour marks the 1 command and 4 tacticals will probably stay the same (or change the command quad to cataphractii/tartarus?) but instead of the plasma/missile we could get other special/heavy weapons and instead of the Assault/Cataphractii we could get the different basic units.

personally expecting the actual weapons to be not that important, yes I know they talked about assault cannons etc - I think that will be for vehicles.

I think infantry will be done by base type, not weapon types, at least not know

- tactical stand
- tactical support stand (the plasma guys)
- heavy weapon stand (missile guys)
- assault stand (lunatics)
- command stand
- terminator stand

it may branch out later but initially I think that will be it and each stand will have its own profile for melee and ranged weapons

there may be an option for "veteran" stands, basically tactical with different colours on them

not sure different armour marks will see different rules, though would make sense to model with different weapons

leopard wrote:


I highly doubt they will go that was, somewhat sadly, there is every chance this is going to be highly streamlined
)

What in the recent releases makes you think it will be streamlines Leopard? (I say, voice muffled as I am buried between a pile of Necromunda books and colour-coded Killteam measuring sticks!)

Heresy Thursday is back for Legions Imperialis!

Heresy Thursday – Unleash a Pack of Dire Wolf Scout Titans With a New Plastic Kit

 Pacific wrote:

leopard wrote:


I highly doubt they will go that was, somewhat sadly, there is every chance this is going to be highly streamlined
)

What in the recent releases makes you think it will be streamlines Leopard? (I say, voice muffled as I am buried between a pile of Necromunda books and colour-coded Killteam measuring sticks!)

mostly the way a lot of the granular detail have gone from mainstream 40k games leaving a feeling that "least possible effort" is the current mantra

I love Necromunda btw, the issue is GW seem to see detail as "complexity" when often its not, 1st edition Space Marine was actually a very simple game, though the depth of the units and weapons added colour to it without adding complexity - i.e. stuff was done with the stats, not with the plague that is special rules

GW these days seem to prefer to remove the rules, then put them back with "special rules".

as long as they go beyond "here is an infantry detachment, it has 10 wound marker/stands, its stats degrade as follows" it will be ok, e.g. have individual infantry units where the stands have weapons and die individually etc.

guess we will see but I expect the richness of earlier versions to be removed, for example will those support stands have plasma guns? or will they just be a support stand with an assigned "combat value"?

LI now got its own website, with better pictures of box contents and more:

https://thehorusheresy.com/legions-imperialis



Can anyone identifiy the decals in the upper-right corner of the sheet?

decals.

strange, apart from the infantry banners and the two warhounds nothing seems to actually have decals on them

can't see 8mm infantry getting them so presumably they relate to vehicles

those upper right ones are very odd though, they look almost Eldar


Automatically Appended Next Post:
could they be the weird designs from the side of the warhound carapace in the closeups?

leopard wrote:
decals.

strange, apart from the infantry banners and the two warhounds nothing seems to actually have decals on them

can't see 8mm infantry getting them so presumably they relate to vehicles

those upper right ones are very odd though, they look almost Eldar

That's what i thought at first, they look a bit like Eldar runes. I'd say they're either something for Sisters of Silence, which would be interesting in itself, or something for a specific Titan Legion.

I suspect we'll see something very like the apocalypse rules from 2019, which in my opinion were great fun. (although the strategy cards can f*ck right off).

I want to see more.

More more more more. All of it. Show me. NAOW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Especially a good old fashioned Artillery Company. Because I don’t want to need to see your girly infantry before raining big deth down on them.

Originally when I heard it was HH, my interest dropped, but now I see it's all Mk6 beakies, I'm interested again.

beast_gts wrote:
Heresy Thursday is back for Legions Imperialis!

Heresy Thursday – Unleash a Pack of Dire Wolf Scout Titans With a New Plastic Kit

Spoiler:

I'm real glad I held off on getting these while they were being produced in resin. It also suggests that AT continues to be popular enough to warrant the migration to plastic. Hopefully they'll migrate the Mechanicus knights over within a year or so.

Thinking about it, it's the Skinflint Annual Pilgrimage in about a month's time - by the Emperor, I hope they've got some of this stuff on display..

is that the fastest resin-to-plastic transition we've had? seems like not that long ago they were released.

The impression I get from the article is that Legiones Imperialis is the focus, they aren't being released in plastic because they're popular in AT, they're being released for LI and their ability to be used in AT is a side benefit

will be interesting to see how quickly they get released, they're being supplied with LI and AT rules so it might give us a peek at statlines for LI (if they don't preview them before that anyway)

So since we now know they are willing to port resin AT stuff to plastic the "No longer available" Warlord Psi Titan is looking mighty suspicious.
Especially since it wouldn't need a whole kit, just an upgrade sprue.
New Warlord sprue with some previously resin weapons and the parts for this guy?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I want to see more.

More more more more. All of it. Show me. NAOW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Especially a good old fashioned Artillery Company. Because I don’t want to need to see your girly infantry before raining big deth down on them.

Ah yes the artillery has to be in there. And especially for Imperial Guard as usually victory rested on whether your infantry companies could tie the other side up long enough for your artillery and tanks to lay down some fire.

One of my fave bits in the game was using fast attack units to sneak around and take them out (although usually it happens to me after I've deployed their screening/defensive units poorly, as shown in this photo here..)

So, regarding bases…I’m pretty certain the new bases are mounded with a cracked earth pattern on them. Especially after todays plastic Dire Wolf Titan reveal, look at the bases. They’re identical, just rotated different angles.

The same can be said for the infantry etc.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I want to see more.

More more more more. All of it. Show me. NAOW.

Last night a little Titan, it was shooting at my door
Last night, that little Titan, it came stomping on my floor
It said, "Come on, Grotsnik, you got a license for war
And if it expires, buy a box to get more.
Because
In the midnight hour he cried more, more, more, more
With a rebel yell he cried more, more, more
More, more, more!

 Matrindur wrote:
So since we now know they are willing to port resin AT stuff to plastic the "No longer available" Warlord Psi Titan is looking mighty suspicious.
Especially since it wouldn't need a whole kit, just an upgrade sprue.
New Warlord sprue with some previously resin weapons and the parts for this guy?

I hope we get some original titan / knight content before they port anymore existing stuff into plastic. Was mostly looking forward to see Rapiers done as one of the first plastic kits in this new wave.

Plastic Armigers would be great to have eventually too though.

Given the heft of the rulebook, I really hope this is a one book system. Would be refreshing for GW to produce a system where players only need one book in order to play.

The reference sheet looks to give a few hints of the orders.

Its hard for me to know exactly what I want. Each version of Epic had its good and bad issues. I liked how easy it was to build armies in 2nd ed by slapping some cards down, but units were very strict, no options except on titian sized vehicles. also infantry almost never got a save, but being in buildings made you harder to hit. I also liked how orders counters worked. The morale system was pretty bad though, breaking a unit really just meant you got victory points for them, rarely did they fail a morale test. vehicles being weaker on the sides and rear made flanking a good tactic. The scale of 2nd ed always just appeared bigger than all the others, really huge armies.

The later editions felt smaller in scale, I really did like the blast marker/morale system, fire fight and crossfire rules. The epic 40k table was terrible though. I didn't like the turn systems as much in the later versions, without the orders system of 2nd ed, it was more of a reactionary counter move game, the double move by passing a morale check felt very gamey, but if you had to put orders down in the beginning, maybe I wouldn't have had an issue with it. I also didn't like the cover system, guys in buildings should be harder to hit than guys in the open.

1st ed had some cool mechanics where your officers could do heroic actions, but if they rolled really poorly on the "Fool or Hero Table" they were picked off by a sniper.

I don't know, I guess Ill have to see what the rules are like. If the rules are good I'll probably pick up the box to show support for the game, but most everything else I'll 3D print. I've already paid GW for quite a few Epic armies, I consider those licencing fees now to print up what they have made invalid by this jump to a new scale.

Found on Facebook:

RazorEdge wrote:
Found on Facebook:

So two legs, two body halfs, backpack reactor, left arm and then right arm as either one part for the kheres or two parts for the lascannon?

xttz wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
So since we now know they are willing to port resin AT stuff to plastic the "No longer available" Warlord Psi Titan is looking mighty suspicious.
Especially since it wouldn't need a whole kit, just an upgrade sprue.
New Warlord sprue with some previously resin weapons and the parts for this guy?

I hope we get some original titan / knight content before they port anymore existing stuff into plastic. Was mostly looking forward to see Rapiers done as one of the first plastic kits in this new wave.

Plastic Armigers would be great to have eventually too though.

Unless that original content is the Knight Dominus, you shut yer heresy speaking mouth...

I need my Armigers and Styrix/Mageara in plastic before any more icky Titans

This message brought to you by the Knight House Mafia

Matrindur wrote:

RazorEdge wrote:
Found on Facebook:

So two legs, two body halfs, backpack reactor, left arm and then right arm as either one part for the kheres or two parts for the lascannon?

You're probably right but the optimist in me hopes part 8 is the Cyclone ML.

 Pacific wrote:


Ah yes the artillery has to be in there. And especially for Imperial Guard as usually victory rested on whether your infantry companies could tie the other side up long enough for your artillery and tanks to lay down some fire.

One of my fave bits in the game was using fast attack units to sneak around and take them out (although usually it happens to me after I've deployed their screening/defensive units poorly, as shown in this photo here..)

Spoiler:

IIRC that would be an illegal move in an Epic 40,000 assault phase!

Those Orks wouldn't be able to move past the Rhinos to engage the artillery, unless at least one Ork buggy moved into contact with each Rhino first. (Must move toward the enemy, don't have to move toward the nearest enemy, but can't move past an enemy unless it's already been charged by another of your units.)

On the other hand, if that's a movement phase, then the Orks wouldn't be allowed to get that close. They'd stop as soon as they got within 10cm and take snap-fire from the artillery crews (and the bolters on the Rhinos), possibly losing a couple of buggies.

I know you're probably not playing Epic 40,000 rules, but since we're discussing rules differences in various editions I felt like it was worth pointing out.

The Dire Wolf kit in plastic is a pleasant surprise.

It makes me wonder what other plastic goodness GW has been working on for the system...

Hope we get a little more on the rules in the next preview.

 schoon wrote:
The Dire Wolf kit in plastic is a pleasant surprise.

It makes me wonder what other plastic goodness GW has been working on for the system...

Hope we get a little more on the rules in the next preview.

It also reassured me that we should be getting most of the IL releases in plastic with only the really niche stuff in resin as why would you remake an already available resin model that itself is kind of a niche unit in plastic if you don't plan to have the same support for the other stuff. I would expect them to choose to make a new IL kit in plastic instead of resin before remaking a resin product in plastic after only a year since its release and since that happened...

(Unless back when Soulblight Gravelords was made for AoS someone just read the memo to make plastic Dire Wolfs and made the wrong ones )

 schoon wrote:
The Dire Wolf kit in plastic is a pleasant surprise.

It makes me wonder what other plastic goodness GW has been working on for the system...

Hope we get a little more on the rules in the next preview.

I'm just glad that Heresy Thursday is officially back and we get previews (of shoulder pads, probably) with some regularity again

Also, fingers crossed for an Imperator-class titan as a centerpiece release sometime in the next two years.

 stonehorse wrote:
Given the heft of the rulebook, I really hope this is a one book system. Would be refreshing for GW to produce a system where players only need one book in order to play.

I'm not certain, but I think I read that the 28mm HH rulebooks only included rules for units that were planned to have a model eventually.

It'll be interesting to see how many units are covered inside the Imperialis rulebook next month, and if there are many unnannounced / unreleased models. That might give us a soft 'roadmap' for the future.

 xttz wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
Given the heft of the rulebook, I really hope this is a one book system. Would be refreshing for GW to produce a system where players only need one book in order to play.

I'm not certain, but I think I read that the 28mm HH rulebooks only included rules for units that were planned to have a model eventually.

It'll be interesting to see how many units are covered inside the Imperialis rulebook next month, and if there are many unnannounced / unreleased models. That might give us a soft 'roadmap' for the future.

Hopefully we get an actual roadmap in the next major preview event, i.e. somewhere around November?

Tsagualsa wrote:

Hopefully we get an actual roadmap in the next major preview event, i.e. somewhere around November?

We should hopefully get stuff at Gencon and/or NOVA in August.

Long-ish FAQ article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/07/legions-imperialis-your-burning-questions-answered/

Tsagualsa wrote:
Long-ish FAQ article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/07/legions-imperialis-your-burning-questions-answered/

Looks like GW has no plans to expand to xenos factions. Guess my wallet will remain closed and I'll be sitting this game out then just as I sat out most of AT. GW keeps leaving money on the table.

Iracundus wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Long-ish FAQ article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/07/legions-imperialis-your-burning-questions-answered/

Looks like GW has no plans to expand to xenos factions. Guess my wallet will remain closed and I'll be sitting this game out then just as I sat out most of AT. GW keeps leaving money on the table.

They outright stated they wont expand these 'for now' which means at least 3-5 years. So no, no Xenos anytime soon.

There's a soft confirmation that other factions are planned too. Fingers crossed for cool Mechanicum stuff.

"No plans for 40k" (but they would say that)
Every Titan and Knight in AT can be used.
No Valkyries/Vendettas.
25mm bases. New bases for Titans but AT ones are still compatible.
Want you to use LI bases for Aeronautica models.
Tanks won't have bases.
AT and AI will still be supported.
Confirm Titan and aircraft rules will be more streamlined.
Reiterate that reactor and shield management aren't a thing.
Most kits will be plastic with some niche units as resin.
Marines/Solar Auxilia will be the only factions at launch, but they'll be others.
No Legion-specific units releasing at launch.
Dodge the Primarch question, but wink/nudge style answer (so they'll probably happen)
Models are "a little bigger" and more detailed than Epic 40,000.
New terrain.
Suggest talking to your opponent if you want to use older minis.
The launch box is "a relatively small army".
Encourage you to mix legions and Solar Auxilia together.

RazorEdge wrote:

"No plans for 40k" (but they would say that)
Every Titan and Knight in AT can be used.
No Valkyries/Vendettas.
25mm bases. New bases for Titans but AT ones are still compatible.
Want you to use LI bases for Aeronautica models.
Tanks won't have bases.
AT and AI will still be supported.
Confirm Titan and aircraft rules will be more streamlined.
Reiterate that reactor and shield management aren't a thing.
Most kits will be plastic with some niche units as resin.
Marines/Solar Auxilia will be the only factions at launch, but they'll be others.
No Legion-specific units releasing at launch.
Dodge the Primarch question, but wink/nudge style answer (so they'll probably happen)
Models are "a little bigger" and more detailed than Epic 40,000.
New terrain.
Suggest talking to your opponent if you want to use older minis.
The launch box is "a relatively small army".
Encourage you to mix legions and Solar Auxilia together.

New bases have sculpted cityscape details, so if you dont want that third-party it is
And new bases are intended to slot into the AT/LI terrain, perhaps for some rule reason we'll learn about.
'Typical' battles are aimed to have 100+ playing pieces per side (about 2x the starting box and upwards)

RazorEdge wrote:
Suggest talking to your opponent if you want to use older minis.

I want to be clear that GW is saying "discuss WYSIWYG" here, not "you have to ask permission"

Hopefully they hurry with mechanicum stuff as that would look amazing at this scale and I want them. I'll likely get the launch box and probably enough to make a full space marine and solar axillia army. But would probably try to get at least one box each of admech stuff in plastic. This all depends on price. And I don't have much intrest in resin as I have a 8k resin printer and it's amazing quality and dirt cheap to print.

Will we ever see Warhammer 40,000 factions?

GW rarely ever says if it will expand something until it actually happens so that doesn't have to mean anything, just that it won't happen for now.

We’ll be starting with those units common to all Space Marines Legions and Solar Auxilia forces, rather than Legion-specific specialists.

This confirms that legion specifics will be coming, will be interesting if those will be resin or plastic?

These will remain as the initial focus of the game, but as time goes on Legions Imperialis will expand into some of the more esoteric factions that participated in the Horus Heresy. But wouldn’t you know it, we can’t say which ones yet…

Mechanicus and Custodes are basically a given but they aren't really "esoteric" factions for HH so we should be getting even more

When Can I Buy an Epic Scale Primarch?
Wouldn’t that be something?

Also nice to get confirmation they will be coming

Is There a Full Army in the Launch Box?
The Launch box contains a mighty force, but by the standards of Legions Imperialis, it is a relatively small army.

As many thought the launch set is only a small army, now just to hope that actually realistic army sizes won't be too expensive

 Matrindur wrote:

These will remain as the initial focus of the game, but as time goes on Legions Imperialis will expand into some of the more esoteric factions that participated in the Horus Heresy. But wouldn’t you know it, we can’t say which ones yet…

Mechanicus and Custodes are basically a given but they aren't really "esoteric" factions for HH so we should be getting even more

What would even qualify as 'esoteric'? Taking it literally, possibly Ruinstorm Daemons, and maybe expanded Sister of Silence (their few infantry units plus that one weird Flash Gordon transport would barely constitute a faction, they'd need at least the Jetbikes and Flyers mentioned in the background, possibly more and weirder stuff too). Other than that? Dark Mech? Rogue Trader forces? Heresy-Era Squats? Proper Titan Legion Skitarri (the beastial ones like in the Abnett books).

 Matrindur wrote:

When Can I Buy an Epic Scale Primarch?
Wouldn’t that be something?

Also nice to get confirmation they will be coming

Hopefully they do them in a smart way, i.e. in resin, and possibly with their specific bodyguard units (especially Perturabo with his Iron Circle) and maybe even their unique vehicles, some of them have command Stormbirds etc. mentioned in the background.

Ya price really will be such a huge part of if this game is successful. I see a lot of intrest online and locally but almost everyone agrees they want to try it but it comes down to price, and rules.

Oh, I see now the box is a "launch box". Interesting.

We keep seeing them talk about Titans on new bases and now Aeronautica on new bases, but the question is, will we be able to get these bases separate for existing units?

ccnick22 wrote:
We keep seeing them talk about Titans on new bases and now Aeronautica on new bases, but the question is, will we be able to get these bases separate for existing units?

I'd be seriously amazed if you could not, GW seem to flog every other base they make in packs, may also see themed versions

ccnick22 wrote:
We keep seeing them talk about Titans on new bases and now Aeronautica on new bases, but the question is, will we be able to get these bases separate for existing units?

They answered this question yesteday, but unfortunately the answer was just 'Highly likely, but we do not have confirmation yet'

 Matrindur wrote:

Will we ever see Warhammer 40,000 factions?

GW rarely ever says if it will expand something until it actually happens so that doesn't have to mean anything, just that it won't happen for now.

Have they ever left something open for expansion like that, and then actually done it though? It didn't happen with Titanicus, Aeronautica didn't get all the army options finished, and even The Old World is having only a portion of WHFB with no plans to expanding it.

 Albertorius wrote:
Oh, I see now the box is a "launch box". Interesting.

Well that's a bit disappointing, but I've just been to Element Games and they had like 50 Leviathan out on the shelves so if I miss a pre-order there's a good chance I can pick it up on release day.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:

Will we ever see Warhammer 40,000 factions?

GW rarely ever says if it will expand something until it actually happens so that doesn't have to mean anything, just that it won't happen for now.

Have they ever left something open for expansion like that, and then actually done it though? It didn't happen with Titanicus, Aeronautica didn't get all the army options finished, and even The Old World is having only a portion of WHFB with no plans to expanding it.

Aeronautica seemed to be a pretty big bust. Since it's launch I've lived in two pretty major cities and outside of the original release have seen almost no one pick it up or play it. As for Titanicus never expanding into 40k, I think they planned to roll that up into this from the start. With the Space Marine Aeronautic release being only 30k aircraft despite them having new flyers in current 40k and the fact it was the same scale as Titanicus, is seems logical that the plan all along was to expand out into a 30k Epic Scale game. If LI doesn't crash and burn like Aeronautica and actually takes off and maintains a player base then I think we will see a 40k version in a few years maybe. Likely after a 30k BFG so that they can complete out this HH timeline.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tsagualsa wrote:

ccnick22 wrote:
We keep seeing them talk about Titans on new bases and now Aeronautica on new bases, but the question is, will we be able to get these bases separate for existing units?

They answered this question yesteday, but unfortunately the answer was just 'Highly likely, but we do not have confirmation yet'

Posted the question on their post today and they responded that the bases will be available separately so that answers my question.

ccnick22 wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

ccnick22 wrote:
We keep seeing them talk about Titans on new bases and now Aeronautica on new bases, but the question is, will we be able to get these bases separate for existing units?

They answered this question yesteday, but unfortunately the answer was just 'Highly likely, but we do not have confirmation yet'

Posted the question on their post today and they responded that the bases will be available separately so that answers my question.

Good to know, for once they seem to have actually checked back with higher up to answer some community question, they clarified that the Dire Wolf will include the AT terminals as well today. Actual customer service in this day and age!

Pretty disappointing to see that the launch box doesn't give you a decent sized force even if you use everything as a single army and that you'll be needing twice as much stuff.

...I mean, I like that the game is meant to feel more epic than that, with proper sized armies, but... that box is pretty naff, for a launch box. The AT launch box amounted to a full AT army (even if not optimized). So did the HH one. This one is about half as much? Ah well.

If the individual boxes' price is not too steep, it might not be that much of an issue... but if they are the price of the AI ones, it will be a pricey game.

At the end of the day, feels like prices will be the ones to make or break this.

 Albertorius wrote:
Pretty disappointing to see that the launch box doesn't give you a decent sized force even if you use everything as a single army and that you'll be needing twice as much stuff.

...I mean, I like that the game is meant to feel more epic than that, with proper sized armies, but... that box is pretty naff, for a launch box. The AT launch box amounted to a full AT army (even if not optimized). So did the HH one. This one is about half as much? Ah well.

If the individual boxes' price is not too steep, it might not be that much of an issue... but if they are the price of the AI ones, it will be a pricey game.

At the end of the day, feels like prices will be the ones to make or break this.

The HH box is at best 2/3 of an army.

Dudeface wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Pretty disappointing to see that the launch box doesn't give you a decent sized force even if you use everything as a single army and that you'll be needing twice as much stuff.

...I mean, I like that the game is meant to feel more epic than that, with proper sized armies, but... that box is pretty naff, for a launch box. The AT launch box amounted to a full AT army (even if not optimized). So did the HH one. This one is about half as much? Ah well.

If the individual boxes' price is not too steep, it might not be that much of an issue... but if they are the price of the AI ones, it will be a pricey game.

At the end of the day, feels like prices will be the ones to make or break this.

The HH box is at best 2/3 of an army.

The HH box is about 2000 points. But okay. Still not less than half . Also, as I was told here, not a launch box either.

Tsagualsa wrote:
LI now got its own website, with better pictures of box contents and more:

https://thehorusheresy.com/legions-imperialis



Can anyone identifiy the decals in the upper-right corner of the sheet?

I can make out some of them as Death Guard, and Iron Hands.
Then I remembered where I'd seen some of them before: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/p22gW3fVQgn0kKWo.jpg

Ya it all comes down to price.

 Albertorius wrote:
Pretty disappointing to see that the launch box doesn't give you a decent sized force even if you use everything as a single army and that you'll be needing twice as much stuff.

...I mean, I like that the game is meant to feel more epic than that, with proper sized armies, but... that box is pretty naff, for a launch box. The AT launch box amounted to a full AT army (even if not optimized). So did the HH one. This one is about half as much? Ah well.

If the individual boxes' price is not too steep, it might not be that much of an issue... but if they are the price of the AI ones, it will be a pricey game.

At the end of the day, feels like prices will be the ones to make or break this.

The HH box is 1500-2000pts for £180 (though HH is typically played at 3000pts)
The AT launch box was ~1300pts plus a bunch of plastic terrain for £180
The AT starter set was ~1200pts for £105

This Epic box will most likely be priced closer to £105-110. It doesn't have nearly as much plastic as HH Age of Darkness or the AT launch box.

 xttz wrote:

The HH box is 1500-2000pts for £180 (though HH is typically played at 3000pts)
The AT launch box was ~1300pts plus a bunch of plastic terrain for £180
The AT starter set was ~1200pts for £105

This Epic box will most likely be priced closer to £105-110. It doesn't have nearly as much plastic as HH Age of Darkness or the AT launch box.

Hoping it's that or less, certainly.

Same price as current AT starter would feel about right. Same price as Age of Darkness would be absurd.

Age of darkness price would = dead on arrival.

This is about as good as I could expect it to get. GW will milk the hell out of this, and it sounds like its very very unlikely we will ever see 40k era epic again now. However, this does leave room for other companies to keep the 40k era market open much like it always has been. Marine sales might drop, but these 3rd parties can replace marines with cheaper terrain options, new style bases and other bits that will replace sales lost on marines, and can keep turning over things like xenos races without much hassle.

Its the best outcome I could have hoped for, other than there being the announcement of 'Sike! Orks are getting released next month!'.

The only change here is we now have a 5th version of Epic rules to try and there are new plastic marines (instead of 3D prints of official designs)

Even if they stick to 30k I think if the game does well eventually we will get orks.

I mean honestly the setting just isent the same withought orks.

Found on B&C.

so, the FAQ gives aus 2 informations about the size

100+ pieces for a standard game and the launch box is a small force
depending on how you count or what is a piece there are 60 bases+models without base (which is already stupid having infantry and titans on bases but not tanks) meaning 2 times the launch box will be the standard game size or the lower end of the standard game size

paying 250€ (2 time AT level Starter) for a heavily discounted army, would mean ~400€ if you don't need or want 2 times the same stuff

Iracundus wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Long-ish FAQ article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/07/legions-imperialis-your-burning-questions-answered/

Looks like GW has no plans to expand to xenos factions. Guess my wallet will remain closed and I'll be sitting this game out then just as I sat out most of AT. GW keeps leaving money on the table.

If the cost of acquiring the money you are leaving on the table is greater than the cost to acquire other money on the table, then its not worth going for your money.

GW could invest say $200k into producing Orks for the game, and in turn make $500k in revenue, for example... or they could invest that same $200k into, I dunno like new 40k space marine kits or something and make $5 million instead.

GWs decision making is being driven by operational and financial efficiency and nothing more.

It's not like the Heresy hasn't proven popular though. It's a fan-favourite setting and HH2 was both received well by the community and proved to be a big seller for GW. The crowd that goes for things like HH also tends to be the crowd that goes for specialist games like Necromunda or Titanicus so I'd wager GW is marketing to them because it can reasonably make money off them. For mainline 40k players, they will be focussed on 10th for at least the next year and most likely never pick up another ancillary system unless they can use the models they already have like Kill Team.

Rare middle ground for me.

GW may well have plans in place to bring Epic to 40K.

But. Those plans may be merely sketched out (as in, if this does well, we’ll make investment) or more optimistically for all, already being actively worked on.

The game isn’t even out. We’ve not even got our grubby digits on it, or looked at it’s pretty words with our own eyes.

Despite it still somehow being a surprise it some, GW are a For Profit company. As such, there’s little sense in telling people what will or might happen years into the future. They like any company don’t want your Potential Future Munneh. They want your now Munneh.

To day “yes we are” or “we’re thinking about it” can discourage immediate spending.

Like it or lump it? Immediate money is the currency of the realm.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Long-ish FAQ article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/07/legions-imperialis-your-burning-questions-answered/

Looks like GW has no plans to expand to xenos factions. Guess my wallet will remain closed and I'll be sitting this game out then just as I sat out most of AT. GW keeps leaving money on the table.

If the cost of acquiring the money you are leaving on the table is greater than the cost to acquire other money on the table, then its not worth going for your money.

GW could invest say $200k into producing Orks for the game, and in turn make $500k in revenue, for example... or they could invest that same $200k into, I dunno like new 40k space marine kits or something and make $5 million instead.

GWs decision making is being driven by operational and financial efficiency and nothing more.

Exactly. Let's not forget that unlike us (making guesses based on what we've seen in stores), GW have near-perfect data on how the various parts of their product range performs. They know how often Adeptus Titanicus & HH products have met or exceeded sales forecasts. They know how quickly restocks have sold through. They also know how each specific 40k faction performs against each other and what proportion of their customers are interested in orks versus marines versus eldar, etc.

The fact that a kit released in resin only 12 months ago is already getting a plastic version speaks volumes about their confidence with this setting and this scale.

None of this precludes Epic xenos releases in future of course, it just means GW believe this is the least risky path to growing a new range of products.

GW uses date that Marines sell because they are only doing Marines
well.....

yet no Orcs on HH, ok it is the Heresy and not the Great Crusade

not doing a Great Crusade option for epic would be a missed opportunity

What stands out for me is that GW had an opportunity to be remarkably gakky towards the existing Epic community and hasn't done so:
- New game is base size and shape agnostic (i.e. existing collectors aren't expected to rebase their collections)
-We now have it in writing that old/classic minis are 'legal' (as much as that counts for anything, but will stop officious snobs at tournaments complaining)
- at time of writing, no C&D or anything else towards any of the NetEpic, Net Armageddon or other community rule hubs. (Whether a challenge would have any merit at all is beside the point, quite often a threatening email is all it needs).
-The fact that they are even communicating these things at all, rather than holding it all until day of release, as though their customers are peasants waiting for scraps to be thrown from the dinner table.

This for me is really heartening and shows how GW has grown as a company, in terms of how it interacts with its fanbase, since the early 10s when it felt like all all out war.
I know the potential still remains for the game to be a sack of balls, but for the effort of engagement at least and mindfulness towards the guys who have worked so hard to keep the Epic community running all these years, I am appreciative.

 Gert wrote:
It's not like the Heresy hasn't proven popular though. It's a fan-favourite setting and HH2 was both received well by the community and proved to be a big seller for GW. The crowd that goes for things like HH also tends to be the crowd that goes for specialist games like Necromunda or Titanicus so I'd wager GW is marketing to them because it can reasonably make money off them. For mainline 40k players, they will be focussed on 10th for at least the next year and most likely never pick up another ancillary system unless they can use the models they already have like Kill Team.

Hh yes.

Non-hh was demanded though.

Is non-marine going to sell enough to not produce more hh stuff?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
GW uses date that Marines sell because they are only doing Marines
well.....

yet no Orcs on HH, ok it is the Heresy and not the Great Crusade

not doing a Great Crusade option for epic would be a missed opportunity

For players.

But for company what matters is profit.

The guys they have hired to do job deem marines bring more profit.,

Without good reason i'm inclined to believe those whose job it is over random internet never-heard-of. After all gw is making millions while these net-guys claiming gw is making huge mistake are making...how much?

tneva82 wrote:
Hh yes.

Non-hh was demanded though.

Is non-marine going to sell enough to not produce more hh stuff?

Of course not because time and time again it's proven that human armies, more specifically Marines sell more than any other individual faction. GW could have put not a single non-Marine figure in that box and it would still get lapped up because people like Space Marines.
Solar Auxilia aren't also going to be considered in the same way they are for regular HH as the core of the army for Legions Imperialis are all plastic. They are essentially Guard with a fancy skin, which might just be equal to the popularity of a Xenos faction but come at less cost for GW to produce because everything Imperial can all be fielded as one army. The only consideration anyone has to make for Legions Imperialis is whether they are going to play Loyalist or Traitor, which is a purely narrative choice.

These releases are following the same pattern as the original releases back in the day. The original "Epic Scale" game was Adeptus Titanicus, which also pretty much introduced the HH. This was followed by 1st Ed Space marine, also taking place during HH, but after 1st was successful they did add some Ork and Eldar units to both Adeptus Titianicus and Space Marine. These games proved popular and profitable enough for GW to release 2nd Ed Space Marine which took place in 40K I think people are forgetting that the first two editions of "Epic Scale" were literally called "Space Marine" not Epic Scale!

Its a huge commitment to jump straight into the 40K universe without a guaranteed seller. Remember the last few times GW went full in on Epic scale...the results were lack luster. When 1st, and even 2nd edition Epic scale were released even 40k was a much simpler game. "Here are some orks and battle wagons, here are eldar and ........grab that wedge of cheese and and invent the falcon." Most of the 40ks diversity didn't even exist when those editions were launched. It was easy to create those starter sets. It will be much more difficult now. If you look at the 2nd ed box there are a lot of miniatures, but there is only one space marine (as in all the marines are exactly the same, not even one cool leader guy....here is a plastic flagpole to designate a commander), there is one rhino, there is one landraider, one eldar, one falcon, one ork, one battlewagon.....just repeated over and over, and they weren't even new! The 2nd ed box was just a release of already existing miniatures as all of those miniatures had already been released for 1st edition, GW has already designed more molds for Legion Imperialis than they did for the launch of 2nd Ed which had to be their most successful and profitable "Epic Scale" Edition.

It wasn't until after 2nd Ed took off that more diverse plastic units and boxes started showing up.

I think the way they are doing this is actually pretty smart. Test the waters and see how it goes. I'm actually amazed they are allowing legacy models to be used (see how long that lasts). With the abundance of Epic models out there still, not to mention the ease of 3D printing epic scale miniatures....GW is taking a risk with this game in the first place, they are not going to commit to making all the 40k armies until they know they have a successful game. People saying they are not going to buy in until its 40k are pretty much dooming it to never happen. I could be wrong but if Legion Imperialis doesn't sell well.....that pretty much guarantees there will be no 40K version. Support it and maybe it will come. I just hope the rules are good enough to establish it as a good game.

I dont know how well AT sold, but I get the feeling that it never expanded to include classic and established Ork and Eldar designs because GW just didn't think the sales of regular AT were good enough to justify adding more factions....again I could be wrong.

My theory as to why Adeptus Titanicus hasn’t moved to 40K is because GW wanted to introduce Epic 30K first. Who knows, maybe AT will get a 40K expansion before Epic does.

My concern with Epic 40K is that GW has created a behemoth in 28mm scale. We have fliers, super heavy tanks, artillery, we can even buy Titans from Forgeworld if we really want to. All things that (in my opinion) should never have made the transition from 6mm to 28mm. Personally I’d be happy if GW discontinued a lot of 40K’s 28mm range to make room for the same models in 6mm. That won’t happen though of course.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
These releases are following the same pattern as the original releases back in the day. The original "Epic Scale" game was Adeptus Titanicus, which also pretty much introduced the HH. This was followed by 1st Ed Space marine, also taking place during HH, but after 1st was successful they did add some Ork and Eldar units to both Adeptus Titianicus and Space Marine. These games proved popular and profitable enough for GW to release 2nd Ed Space Marine which took place in 40K I think people are forgetting that the first two editions of "Epic Scale" were literally called "Space Marine" not Epic Scale!

Its a huge commitment to jump straight into the 40K universe without a guaranteed seller. Remember the last few times GW went full in on Epic scale...the results were lack luster. When 1st, and even 2nd edition Epic scale were released even 40k was a much simpler game. "Here are some orks and battle wagons, here are eldar and ........grab that wedge of cheese and call it a falcon." Most of the 40ks diversity didn't even exist when those editions were launched. It was easy to create those starter sets. It will be much more difficult now. If you look at the 2nd ed box there are a lot of miniatures, but there is only one space marine (as in all the marines are exactly the same), there is one rhino, there is one landraider, one eldar, one falcon, one ork, one battlewagon.....just repeated over and over, and they weren't even new! The 2nd ed box was just a release of already existing miniatures as all of those miniatures had already been released for 1st edition, GW has already designed more molds for Legion Imperialis than they did for the launch of 2nd Ed which had to be their most successful and profitable "Epic Scale" Edition.

It wasn't until after 2nd Ed took off that more diverse plastic units and boxes started showing up.

I think the way they are doing this is actually pretty smart. Test the waters and see how it goes. I'm actually amazed they are allowing legacy models to be used (see how long that lasts). With the abundance of Epic models out there still, not to mention the ease of 3D printing epic scale miniatures....GW is taking a risk with this game in the first place, they are not going to commit to making all the 40k armies until they know they have a successful game. People saying they are not going to buy in until its 40k are pretty much dooming it to never happen. I could be wrong but if Legion Imperialis doesn't sell well.....that pretty much guarantees there will be no 40K version. Support it and maybe it will come. I just hope the rules are good enough to establish it as a good game.

I dont know how well AT sold, but I get the feeling that it never expanded to include classic and established Ork and Eldar designs because GW just didn't think the sales of regular AT were good enough to justify adding more factions....again I could be wrong.

Thank You! it doesn't take a business degree to figure out their release strategy here, it just takes some pattern recognition and a little knowledge of GW's history:

Big Stompy Robots set in the HH lets you use the same molds on both sides. Easy to produce, easy to balance, small number of sculpts

Success of Big Stompy Robots funds and justifies the creation of Mass Combat Tiny Game, also set in the HH - more sculpts, but still less than developing multiple different ranges, everyone can use everything (and Space marines are popular, so you have an almost guaranteed player base)

[You are here]

Success of Mass Combat Tiny Game justifies Mass Combat Tiny Game with More Races, catering to the players of less popular factions by using the profits of previous iterations (and continued sales of Tiny Space Marines and Big Stompy Robots

If LI does well you'll get your tiny orks and mini Eldar

tneva82 wrote:

For players.
But for company what matters is profit.
The guys they have hired to do job deem marines bring more profit.,
Without good reason i'm inclined to believe those whose job it is over random internet never-heard-of. After all gw is making millions while these net-guys claiming gw is making huge mistake are making...how much?

now I am curious, how is GW not making Millions if they bring in Orcs for new Epic?
you really think GW would not make profit but lose money if the bring anything but Marines?
anything to back that up except "GW knows what they are doing"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charax wrote:
If LI does well you'll get your tiny orks and mini Eldar

and which of the above indicates that?
what makes GW think that people are buying Xenos in Horus Heresy if Marines sell well?
would the conclusion not be to make more Marines because those are selling?

how did the success of Space Marines in 40k lead to Xenos get more units?

 kodos wrote:


how did the success of Space Marines in 40k lead to Xenos get more units?

Financial buffer from the marines allows extra budget to take the risks and tooling on less popular factions, GW even said this at some point.

if IL sells we see Xenos, in one post while the other claims GW won't make millions of the release a single xenos factions

well if losing money is the reason why they don't do it, it will always be the reason and no matter how much money something else makes, they won't do it because they lose money with it

and the financial backup from GW is big enough that Orcs on release would not have got them into any financial trouble

this is not an indy company were releasing a plastic kit that won't sell well is going to ruin them
this is a multi million company were the question is just if it sells well or sells out no matter what they release

Charax wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
These releases are following the same pattern as the original releases back in the day. The original "Epic Scale" game was Adeptus Titanicus, which also pretty much introduced the HH. This was followed by 1st Ed Space marine, also taking place during HH, but after 1st was successful they did add some Ork and Eldar units to both Adeptus Titianicus and Space Marine. These games proved popular and profitable enough for GW to release 2nd Ed Space Marine which took place in 40K I think people are forgetting that the first two editions of "Epic Scale" were literally called "Space Marine" not Epic Scale!

Its a huge commitment to jump straight into the 40K universe without a guaranteed seller. Remember the last few times GW went full in on Epic scale...the results were lack luster. When 1st, and even 2nd edition Epic scale were released even 40k was a much simpler game. "Here are some orks and battle wagons, here are eldar and ........grab that wedge of cheese and call it a falcon." Most of the 40ks diversity didn't even exist when those editions were launched. It was easy to create those starter sets. It will be much more difficult now. If you look at the 2nd ed box there are a lot of miniatures, but there is only one space marine (as in all the marines are exactly the same), there is one rhino, there is one landraider, one eldar, one falcon, one ork, one battlewagon.....just repeated over and over, and they weren't even new! The 2nd ed box was just a release of already existing miniatures as all of those miniatures had already been released for 1st edition, GW has already designed more molds for Legion Imperialis than they did for the launch of 2nd Ed which had to be their most successful and profitable "Epic Scale" Edition.

It wasn't until after 2nd Ed took off that more diverse plastic units and boxes started showing up.

I think the way they are doing this is actually pretty smart. Test the waters and see how it goes. I'm actually amazed they are allowing legacy models to be used (see how long that lasts). With the abundance of Epic models out there still, not to mention the ease of 3D printing epic scale miniatures....GW is taking a risk with this game in the first place, they are not going to commit to making all the 40k armies until they know they have a successful game. People saying they are not going to buy in until its 40k are pretty much dooming it to never happen. I could be wrong but if Legion Imperialis doesn't sell well.....that pretty much guarantees there will be no 40K version. Support it and maybe it will come. I just hope the rules are good enough to establish it as a good game.

I dont know how well AT sold, but I get the feeling that it never expanded to include classic and established Ork and Eldar designs because GW just didn't think the sales of regular AT were good enough to justify adding more factions....again I could be wrong.

Thank You! it doesn't take a business degree to figure out their release strategy here, it just takes some pattern recognition and a little knowledge of GW's history:

Big Stompy Robots set in the HH lets you use the same molds on both sides. Easy to produce, easy to balance, small number of sculpts

Success of Big Stompy Robots funds and justifies the creation of Mass Combat Tiny Game, also set in the HH - more sculpts, but still less than developing multiple different ranges, everyone can use everything (and Space marines are popular, so you have an almost guaranteed player base)

[You are here]

Success of Mass Combat Tiny Game justifies Mass Combat Tiny Game with More Races, catering to the players of less popular factions by using the profits of previous iterations (and continued sales of Tiny Space Marines and Big Stompy Robots

If LI does well you'll get your tiny orks and mini Eldar

How many times has GW ramped up and released a full version of Epic Scale only to lose their ass when it doesn't sell well? I remember buying blisters of later epic editions from the discount rack pretty quickly after their release. If the rules are not good, or the sales aren't there the game just dies. Leaving GW and retailers holding a bad bag of product. I can't think of another GW game Ive seen fail so many times. GW games usually goes from edition to edition....Epic just dies! Only 1st and 2nd ed were actually successful if I am remembering correctly. The rest I dont think lasted more than a single cycle. Thats a significant risk made even more so by 3D printing. People that demand instant Epic 40k have probably never seen racks upon racks of discount product sitting on shelves.

That's true, last editions of Epic didn't sell that well.

Makes perfect sense to focus on Horus Heresy, which is basically just the same armies thrown against each other with different color schemes (civil war sure has it good on that matter).

Also, if both sides have exactly the same ressources at their disposal, it helps a lot for balance. One side can't complain they don't have access to OP unit if the other has the exact same on their own.

Let's trust GW on this one, we'll see how it goes on long term.

 kodos wrote:
if IL sells we see Xenos, in one post while the other claims GW won't make millions of the release a single xenos factions

well if losing money is the reason why they don't do it, it will always be the reason and no matter how much money something else makes, they won't do it because they lose money with it

and the financial backup from GW is big enough that Orcs on release would not have got them into any financial trouble

this is not an indy company were releasing a plastic kit that won't sell well is going to ruin them
this is a multi million company were the question is just if it sells well or sells out no matter what they release

Tell that to the other editions of Epic Scale where GW and retailers lost their asses.....at this point if GW releases as Epic in 40K...they cant just add one more faction....people would lose their minds. People are losing their minds right already when the background of HH actually fits just marines. If epic in 40k was released with just marines and Eldar.......people would go crazy. Marines are easy. How many different ork sculpts would it take to make an army?

 kodos wrote:

well if losing money is the reason why they don't do it, it will always be the reason and no matter how much money something else makes, they won't do it because they lose money with it

It's not that simple. GW doesn't know if they will lose money or make money with anything they release. That's the nature of business. To some degree, every new product is a gamble. The more novel the product, the bigger the bet. There is no reason for a healthy business to make huge risky bets when they have the option to bet conservatively. Which do you think is more risky, trying to sell space marines or trying to sell space marines + xenos?

While I realize that some folks are heresy heads who don't care about the 40K setting and its associated factions...it's not hard to understand that 40K non-SM factions have far larger followings than 30K non-SM factions. And those followings represent a certain amount of potential sales that just won't happen with this approach.

What GW doing isn't brilliant or risk-free. It just shifts the risk. They've reduced their risk of overreaching with the risk of underreaching. You can say that it's better this way, but it isn't necessarily good in business to underperform the opportunity. Especially with a launch, IMO. Now is when you want to crush it with sales, not just make a little money and see how it goes.

Doesn't matter -- it is what it is. But I'll say it again that the folks hoping for a slew of 30K factions for LI should really pay attention to how conservatively GW is playing it here.

Tbh Solar Auxilia out the gate is already far less conservative than I was expecting.

 kodos wrote:
if IL sells we see Xenos, in one post while the other claims GW won't make millions of the release a single xenos factions

well if losing money is the reason why they don't do it, it will always be the reason and no matter how much money something else makes, they won't do it because they lose money with it

and the financial backup from GW is big enough that Orcs on release would not have got them into any financial trouble

this is not an indy company were releasing a plastic kit that won't sell well is going to ruin them
this is a multi million company were the question is just if it sells well or sells out no matter what they release

Nobody said Xenos would have to make millions, it would just need to generate enough interest which chances are it won't. Every single Imperial unit be it Space Marine, Solar Auxilia, Titan, Mechanicum, or Knight can be bought and used by every single player in Legions Imperialis. Not every single non-Imperial unit can be bought and used by every non-Imperial player in a hypothetical scenario.
With the launch of a brand new game, presenting a smaller option of choices that maximise player choice and spending is the better choice for GW, a choice made easier by having a setting ready-made for such a thing.
It's not about a Xenos release for LI crashing the company, it's about the longevity of a product line and the hard truth is that humans sell better than Xenos.

artific3r wrote:

 kodos wrote:

well if losing money is the reason why they don't do it, it will always be the reason and no matter how much money something else makes, they won't do it because they lose money with it

It's not that simple. GW doesn't know if they will lose money or make money with anything they release. That's the nature of business. To some degree, every new product is a gamble. The more novel the product, the bigger the bet. There is no reason for a healthy business to make huge risky bets when they have the option to bet conservatively. Which do you think is more risky, trying to sell space marines or trying to sell space marines + xenos?

Would it be "safe" or "risky" to try to open an ice cream stand but only offer vanilla and chocolate? With the idea being that if the vanilla and chocolate are popular, maybe later add other flavors like peach or rocky road or whatever.

The risk of course is that the stand never gets off the ground the way that you want, because a fair amount of potential customers want more than vanilla and chocolate. It's a different risk, not less risk.

 gorgon wrote:

artific3r wrote:

 kodos wrote:

well if losing money is the reason why they don't do it, it will always be the reason and no matter how much money something else makes, they won't do it because they lose money with it

It's not that simple. GW doesn't know if they will lose money or make money with anything they release. That's the nature of business. To some degree, every new product is a gamble. The more novel the product, the bigger the bet. There is no reason for a healthy business to make huge risky bets when they have the option to bet conservatively. Which do you think is more risky, trying to sell space marines or trying to sell space marines + xenos?

Would it be "safe" or "risky" to try to open an ice cream stand but only offer vanilla and chocolate? With the idea being that if the vanilla and chocolate are popular, maybe later add other flavors like peach or rocky road or whatever.

The risk of course is that the stand never gets off the ground the way that you want, because a fair amount of potential customers want more than vanilla and chocolate. It's a different risk, not less risk.

Space marines are not a risk.
In any game system.

When at one point a faction accounts for half your sales (not half your 40k sales, half of all sales), they become your de facto first faction for any game setting they fit in because if even a minuscule fraction of their 40k player base follow them to another system, they'll pay for their development costs (and probably the costs for the next couple of factions too)

artific3r wrote:

 kodos wrote:

well if losing money is the reason why they don't do it, it will always be the reason and no matter how much money something else makes, they won't do it because they lose money with it

It's not that simple. GW doesn't know if they will lose money or make money with anything they release. That's the nature of business. To some degree, every new product is a gamble. The more novel the product, the bigger the bet. There is no reason for a healthy business to make huge risky bets when they have the option to bet conservatively. Which do you think is more risky, trying to sell space marines or trying to sell space marines + xenos?

It's not even about selling space marines. It's about having several distinct ranges of models that people can pick and choose from at will:

Imperial Titans

Imperial Knights

Space Marines

Solar Auxillia

Imperial Navy

Likely Mechanicum & Custodes in future

Players can take space marines, sure. But they can also cherry pick their favourite models from the same pool as everyone else in essentially any combination and still play the game without looking at a space marine. It's Warhammer pick n mix. The same isn't possible by putting the same resources into 1 or 2 xenos factions.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Tbh Solar Auxilia out the gate is already far less conservative than I was expecting.

That, plus new Warhound weapons & putting Dire Wolves straight into plastic.

 gorgon wrote:


Would it be "safe" or "risky" to try to open an ice cream stand but only offer vanilla and chocolate? With the idea being that if the vanilla and chocolate are popular, maybe later add other flavors like peach or rocky road or whatever.

The risk of course is that the stand never gets off the ground the way that you want, because a fair amount of potential customers want more than vanilla and chocolate. It's a different risk, not less risk.

So do you just think ice cream is free? Losing your investment in 1-2 flavors is the same as losing your investment in 5 flavors?

Charax wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

artific3r wrote:

 kodos wrote:

well if losing money is the reason why they don't do it, it will always be the reason and no matter how much money something else makes, they won't do it because they lose money with it

It's not that simple. GW doesn't know if they will lose money or make money with anything they release. That's the nature of business. To some degree, every new product is a gamble. The more novel the product, the bigger the bet. There is no reason for a healthy business to make huge risky bets when they have the option to bet conservatively. Which do you think is more risky, trying to sell space marines or trying to sell space marines + xenos?

Would it be "safe" or "risky" to try to open an ice cream stand but only offer vanilla and chocolate? With the idea being that if the vanilla and chocolate are popular, maybe later add other flavors like peach or rocky road or whatever.

The risk of course is that the stand never gets off the ground the way that you want, because a fair amount of potential customers want more than vanilla and chocolate. It's a different risk, not less risk.

Space marines are not a risk.
In any game system.

When at one point a faction accounts for half your sales (not half your 40k sales, half of all sales), they become your de facto first faction for any game setting they fit in because if even a minuscule fraction of their 40k player base follow them to another system, they'll pay for their development costs (and probably the costs for the next couple of factions too)

Vanilla and chocolate aren't risky flavors to pick either, lol. They're likely big sellers for ice cream stands. It's just a risk to open ONLY with vanilla and chocolate. Thought the analogy, if imperfect, was pretty clear.

It's possible to be happy about the release of LI *and* also think the appeal is limited with 1.5 factions. Doesn't have to be one or the other. I mean, what's the sound argument here that having fewer options for the players is a positive for the players? It's not your money at risk, it's GW's money.

 gorgon wrote:

Charax wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

artific3r wrote:

 kodos wrote:

well if losing money is the reason why they don't do it, it will always be the reason and no matter how much money something else makes, they won't do it because they lose money with it

It's not that simple. GW doesn't know if they will lose money or make money with anything they release. That's the nature of business. To some degree, every new product is a gamble. The more novel the product, the bigger the bet. There is no reason for a healthy business to make huge risky bets when they have the option to bet conservatively. Which do you think is more risky, trying to sell space marines or trying to sell space marines + xenos?

Would it be "safe" or "risky" to try to open an ice cream stand but only offer vanilla and chocolate? With the idea being that if the vanilla and chocolate are popular, maybe later add other flavors like peach or rocky road or whatever.

The risk of course is that the stand never gets off the ground the way that you want, because a fair amount of potential customers want more than vanilla and chocolate. It's a different risk, not less risk.

Space marines are not a risk.
In any game system.

When at one point a faction accounts for half your sales (not half your 40k sales, half of all sales), they become your de facto first faction for any game setting they fit in because if even a minuscule fraction of their 40k player base follow them to another system, they'll pay for their development costs (and probably the costs for the next couple of factions too)

Vanilla and chocolate aren't risky flavors to pick either, lol. They're likely big sellers for ice cream stands. It's just a risk to open ONLY with vanilla and chocolate. Thought the analogy, if imperfect, was pretty clear.

It's possible to be happy about the release of LI *and* also think the appeal is limited with 1.5 factions. Doesn't have to be one or the other. I mean, what's the sound argument here that having fewer options for the players is a positive for the players? It's not your money at risk, it's GW's money.

Having fewer options that lead to the game being stable for longer and eventually getting more stuff is preferable to another straw fire that starts with too many options for its own good and gets dumped shortly after the release, like it happened with Epic in several incarnations.

artific3r wrote:

 gorgon wrote:


Would it be "safe" or "risky" to try to open an ice cream stand but only offer vanilla and chocolate? With the idea being that if the vanilla and chocolate are popular, maybe later add other flavors like peach or rocky road or whatever.

The risk of course is that the stand never gets off the ground the way that you want, because a fair amount of potential customers want more than vanilla and chocolate. It's a different risk, not less risk.

So do you just think ice cream is free? Losing your investment in 1-2 flavors is the same as losing your investment in 5 flavors?

Yeah...I'm not sure that I follow you here. You're saying it's better to harm your ice cream stand's chances of being successful...in the name of lowering your overall investment into the business?

See, then I'd ask why you're trying to open an ice cream stand in the first place.

 gorgon wrote:

artific3r wrote:

 kodos wrote:

well if losing money is the reason why they don't do it, it will always be the reason and no matter how much money something else makes, they won't do it because they lose money with it

It's not that simple. GW doesn't know if they will lose money or make money with anything they release. That's the nature of business. To some degree, every new product is a gamble. The more novel the product, the bigger the bet. There is no reason for a healthy business to make huge risky bets when they have the option to bet conservatively. Which do you think is more risky, trying to sell space marines or trying to sell space marines + xenos?

Would it be "safe" or "risky" to try to open an ice cream stand but only offer vanilla and chocolate? With the idea being that if the vanilla and chocolate are popular, maybe later add other flavors like peach or rocky road or whatever.

The risk of course is that the stand never gets off the ground the way that you want, because a fair amount of potential customers want more than vanilla and chocolate. It's a different risk, not less risk.

That different risk can still be less risk. I agree with the premise that there is some risk of the game not doing well because it has limited its audience too much. I don’t agree it’s the same level of risk of the game failing because they over invested in multiple extra factions. And GW have more data on the levels of risk than any of us here, between things like the 32mm heresy game, Xenos in AI etc, and they chose to go with Heresy only to start with.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

artific3r wrote:

 kodos wrote:

well if losing money is the reason why they don't do it, it will always be the reason and no matter how much money something else makes, they won't do it because they lose money with it

It's not that simple. GW doesn't know if they will lose money or make money with anything they release. That's the nature of business. To some degree, every new product is a gamble. The more novel the product, the bigger the bet. There is no reason for a healthy business to make huge risky bets when they have the option to bet conservatively. Which do you think is more risky, trying to sell space marines or trying to sell space marines + xenos?

Would it be "safe" or "risky" to try to open an ice cream stand but only offer vanilla and chocolate? With the idea being that if the vanilla and chocolate are popular, maybe later add other flavors like peach or rocky road or whatever.

The risk of course is that the stand never gets off the ground the way that you want, because a fair amount of potential customers want more than vanilla and chocolate. It's a different risk, not less risk.

That different risk can still be less risk. I agree with the premise that there is some risk of the game not doing well because it has limited its audience too much. I don’t agree it’s the same level of risk of the game failing because they over invested in multiple extra factions. And GW have more data on the levels of risk than any of us here, between things like the 32mm heresy game, Xenos in AI etc, and they chose to go with Heresy only to start with.

Also, you have to take into account that while the risks look superficially same-ish (being fundamentally a percentage chance of that risk happening) the costs, results and consequences associated with them could be very different. Failing by underreaching can still be less bad for you than failing by overreaching, because the second option comes with more upfront investments and opportunity costs because you wasted a lot of tooling and production slots that could have been used for more profitable ventures, while the first mostly means leaving money on the table. Which is hard to quantify anyway, and not automatically bad for your bottom line as long as the projects you realized met expectations.

Whether or not more flavors increases or decreases your chances of turning a profit is complete conjecture. That's not risk you can quantify and it's not worth discussing.

Conversely, the amount of cold hard cash you fork over to build your ice cream factories is very quantifiable. You make business decisions around facts (as much as it's possible), not conjecture.

Tsagualsa wrote:
Having fewer options that lead to the game being stable for longer and eventually getting more stuff is preferable to another straw fire that starts with too many options for its own good and gets dumped shortly after the release, like it happened with Epic in several incarnations.

Two points:

1) Personally I don't see a very conservative approach/limited investment as a strong sign for long-term stability. Says strongly *to me* that they're looking to hit singles with LI, not doubles/triples/HRs. And that's fine. But again, hitting singles doesn't really suggest a product that will stick around. More like a profitable little side hustle that you'll move on from.

2) It wasn't customer choice that did in Epic 40K and sent the Epic line from more or less core game status into Specialist Games hell. It would have bombed with 2 factions or 10. The issue there was not GW not having its finger on the pulse of its customers. Doesn't matter if it was a well-conceived product in a vacuum. It wasn't what the customers wanted, and any product will fail if they miss that mark so spectacularly.