Tsagualsa wrote:
Their wording was 'these Dreadnoughts in Legion Imperialis stand a little bit shorter than a Spacemarine in Warhammer 40.000'. It's in the part of the video where they show each individual unit, when they show the Contemptors.

I have to assume they got the sized mixed up, as those Contemptors look to be about 20mm tall, if that.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Their wording was 'these Dreadnoughts in Legion Imperialis stand a little bit shorter than a Spacemarine in Warhammer 40.000'. It's in the part of the video where they show each individual unit, when they show the Contemptors.

I have to assume they got the sized mixed up, as those Contemptors look to be about 20mm tall, if that.

It sure seems like it.

we hope
otherwise this will be a 15mm game and not 8mm

 kodos wrote:
we hope
otherwise this will be a 15mm game and not 8mm

Nah, it's 8mm allright, they just used a expression that is a bit ambiguous ('a bit smaller' meaning 'half as big'), that's not evidence they got the whole scale off by a factor of two The armywide shots with the known-size Warhounds show that everything is broadly the right scale. The Contemptors are also just slightly bigger than the Charonite Ogryns (which are huge, way bigger than normal Ogryns), so that matches as well.

 Matrindur wrote:
Confirmed in the article it will launch in August

Guess I need to get off my arse and put the old stuff up on eBay so I can afford all the new hotness.

Wow. Epic, Brets, and Skaven all in the same preview.

 Breotan wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
Confirmed in the article it will launch in August

Guess I need to get off my arse and put the old stuff up on eBay so I can afford all the new hotness.

Wow. Epic, Brets, and Skaven all in the same preview.

True. My wallet is ready as I didn´t order the Leviathan box set.

Those aren't 25mm bases, if you look at the army photo you can see that there's some smaller bases in the group photo (like the contemptors)

Dont know i was expecting...at least a box with two armys the size old epic...this box is kinda for one...and that one wont have an "epic" size army...so is an excuse to buy more boxes. I mean for the crazy 3D people they will only expect the manual...but for the ones who wanted something like the old but dont have nothing...this is meh.

Even it could grab more players if it was 40k and not 30k....but nope...this is an stand alone game....unless you want to crazy print things.

Dont know you but right now i am in Peru, in lima to be exact...there is only one store that sells warhammer just by order (they dont have things in shelves) there is a community of like 30 playing 40k most in homes....in the store more play kill team. Havent seen AoS or other games....so this new epic...wont be apealling here...even if i get one i wont have no one to play lol not even by myself unless i obligate myself to claim that the box is 2 armys and play just like 40k in mini size :(

I was surprisingly meh about this preview, and I couldn’t work out why.

I use to love a bit of epic and still have four large armies.

Maybe it was the round bases, or the bland paint schemes. Then it hit me, the armies in that box set are tiny.

Like less stuff than a 3000 point HH game tiny. In old epic I’d run detachments larger than that. The whole point of epic is to use armies that are totally impractical to use at 28mm because they have so many units in them. This box set doesn’t deliver that.

 Pacific wrote:
Some GREAT news for the existing community.

I hope he doesn't mind me posting this here, but Ian Wood (one of the main pillars of the Epic community) has done some Geometry on the photos, based on the size of a Warhound and base, and worked out an approx size of the new infantry. In summary, they are bigger than classic Epic, but not excessively so and should match well with existing proxy ranges.

One thing I forgot to say: if those are 25mm bases, they are thinner than the current regular ones.

 Kiiroitori wrote:
Dont know i was expecting...at least a box with two armys the size old epic...this box is kinda for one...and that one wont have an "epic" size army...so is an excuse to buy more boxes. I mean for the crazy 3D people they will only expect the manual...but for the ones who wanted something like the old but dont have nothing...this is meh.

Even it could grab more players if it was 40k and not 30k....but nope...this is an stand alone game....unless you want to crazy print things.

Dont know you but right now i am in Peru, in lima to be exact...there is only one store that sells warhammer just by order (they dont have things in shelves) there is a community of like 30 playing 40k most in homes....in the store more play kill team. Havent seen AoS or other games....so this new epic...wont be apealling here...even if i get one i wont have no one to play lol not even by myself unless i obligate myself to claim that the box is 2 armys and play just like 40k in mini size :(

Exactly, in old epic £10 would buy you a space marine battle group that was a whole company of marines. There’s less than that in this box, which will probably cost £100.

Technical, the Set includes two Crusade Era Companies;

each with
>1 Command Staff
>3 Tactical Squads
>1 Tactical Support Squad

 Albertorius wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Some GREAT news for the existing community.

I hope he doesn't mind me posting this here, but Ian Wood (one of the main pillars of the Epic community) has done some Geometry on the photos, based on the size of a Warhound and base, and worked out an approx size of the new infantry. In summary, they are bigger than classic Epic, but not excessively so and should match well with existing proxy ranges.

Spoiler:

One thing I forgot to say: if those are 25mm bases, they are thinner than the current regular ones.

Yeah they said the bases are thinner, as they’re less distracting/smaller proportionally with smaller models.

RazorEdge wrote:
Technical, the Set includes two Crusade Era Companies;

each with
>1 Command Staff
>3 Tactical Squads
>1 Tactical Support Squad

seem to remember the intro scenarios for 1st edition had more than that, something like three squads per side, with transports, and whirlwinds etc (though yay proxy Rhino as whirlwinds and a flagpole for the commander)

what was it? 16 Land Raiders, 32 Rhinos and 64 stands of infantry?

oh yes and a range of buildings

 Tamereth wrote:

Exactly, in old epic £10 would buy you a space marine battle group that was a whole company of marines. There’s less than that in this box, which will probably cost £100.

Yeah, but also the tabletop market was much, much smaller then so they needed to sell 'in bulk' to get started and also attract customers. If buyers during the 90's also needed to spend £100's on extra lead blister pack add-ons in order to have a barely-playable game, then these product ranges would have died off long before Epic 40,000.

Now GW have an established market built on existing AT/AI models and a lot of nostaligia. There's absolutely no incentive for them to take the same approach. These days GW can put out thousands of new boxes for a game and have them sell out in minutes. They're also operating on longer design & production schedules that mean dozens more Epic-scale products are in the pipeline, with hefty investments into injection mold tooling. If they sell you a full sized army on day one, what will you want to buy in six months time?

 xttz wrote:

 Tamereth wrote:

Exactly, in old epic £10 would buy you a space marine battle group that was a whole company of marines. There’s less than that in this box, which will probably cost £100.

Yeah, but also the tabletop market was much, much smaller then so they needed to sell 'in bulk' to get started and also attract customers. If buyers during the 90's also needed to spend £100's on extra lead blister pack add-ons in order to have a barely-playable game, then these product ranges would have died off long before Epic 40,000.

Now GW have an established market built on existing AT/AI models and a lot of nostaligia. There's absolutely no incentive for them to take the same approach. These days GW can put out thousands of new boxes for a game and have them sell out in minutes. They're also operating on longer design & production schedules that mean dozens more Epic-scale products are in the pipeline, with hefty investments into injection mold tooling. If they sell you a full sized army on day one, what will you want to buy in six months time?

Also, by inflation alone, £10 from back in '97 are the equivalent of £25 today (probably more like £30, it's an average rate after all). I know it's hard to accept, but 1997 was 26 years ago

Just got back from a game of Killteam, and what have they revealed? A new "Epic scale" game system, as many of us expected. I bet this will be used to test the waters, and if things go according to plan, a 40K Epic scale game will follow suit..

I dont know what to think about the contents of the box tbh.. seems stingy in terms of intantry. Will have to see what sort of pricepoints this stuff will settle into. Seems quite likely this new game will be significantly more expensive to get into than the Epics of olde..

In any case, I will buy this box and some AI models at the bare minimum. I want to get a feel for how the game plays with titans, infantry, armour and flyers, combined arms warfare FTW

One thing became a certainty though - HH 2.0 is a no-go for me after this. I will only be getting HH models to use in 40K & KT21, and otherwise prioritize Legion Inperialis stuff. My shelves are full of 28mm stuff already, I will not be getting much more..

 tauist wrote:

I dont know what to think about the contents of the box tbh.. seems stingy in terms of intantry. Will have to see what sort of pricepoints this stuff will settle into. Seems quite likely this new game will be significantly more expensive to get into than the Epics of olde..
.

On the other hand, Epic scale infantry is absolutey dirt cheap to put out in huge numbers, it's possible that they do a compeitively priced Space Marine infantry box that gets you a hundred bodies or whatever, and they just wanted to use the space in the starter box for more interesting things. People will buy Space Marines anyway, so the e.g. Company Box is a given, and probably a good way to expand your starter force.

 tauist wrote:
One thing became a certainty though - HH 2.0 is a no-go for me after this. I will only be getting HH models to use in 40K & KT21, and otherwise prioritize Legion Inperialis stuff. My shelves are full of 28mm stuff already, I will not be getting much more..

I was very tempted by the HH revamp last summer and almost pulled the trigger on the AoD boxed set. The main thing that stopped me was realising that the next logical step for Epic scale was a HH game, and that the current drought in AT releases was probably building up to that. I didn't like the idea of painting up a '28mm' marine army only to repeat the process again for Epic.

The only surprise here is that it only took a year! I thought they would let HH breathe for a bit longer first and release for Christmas or early 2024.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 tauist wrote:

I dont know what to think about the contents of the box tbh.. seems stingy in terms of intantry. Will have to see what sort of pricepoints this stuff will settle into. Seems quite likely this new game will be significantly more expensive to get into than the Epics of olde..
.

On the other hand, Epic scale infantry is absolutey dirt cheap to put out in huge numbers, it's possible that they do a compeitively priced Space Marine infantry box that gets you a hundred bodies or whatever, and they just wanted to use the space in the starter box for more interesting things. People will buy Space Marines anyway, so the e.g. Company Box is a given, and probably a good way to expand your starter force.

I will bet hard currency right now that Christmas 2024 sees one (or more) Epic-scale bundle boxes with a bunch of infantry and tanks. There's also a chance they do smaller bundle sets for just marines or IA before that.

 xttz wrote:



I will bet hard currency right now that Christmas 2024 sees one (or more) Epic-scale bundle boxes with a bunch of infantry and tanks. There's also a chance they do smaller bundle sets for just marines or IA before that.

We'll see what their release model is - and what material most of the stuff outside of the big boxes come in. I can see company-level boxes of plastic infantry and the most common vehicle hulls, with the chunkier stuff like heavy tanks and such coming in resin, and turrets being essentially upgrades for the standard hulls. But apparently there will be more information shortly, so we'll have to wait and see for now.

Known about this for some time now when I was told not to sell off my epic stuff, the new stuff looks very nice.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I suspect the game is Warhammer The Horus Heresy Legions, and the Imperialis bit is the box set name.

So that leaves the door open for future releases like Legions: Aeldari..?

 Tamereth wrote:

 Kiiroitori wrote:
Dont know i was expecting...at least a box with two armys the size old epic...this box is kinda for one...and that one wont have an "epic" size army...so is an excuse to buy more boxes. I mean for the crazy 3D people they will only expect the manual...but for the ones who wanted something like the old but dont have nothing...this is meh.

Even it could grab more players if it was 40k and not 30k....but nope...this is an stand alone game....unless you want to crazy print things.

Dont know you but right now i am in Peru, in lima to be exact...there is only one store that sells warhammer just by order (they dont have things in shelves) there is a community of like 30 playing 40k most in homes....in the store more play kill team. Havent seen AoS or other games....so this new epic...wont be apealling here...even if i get one i wont have no one to play lol not even by myself unless i obligate myself to claim that the box is 2 armys and play just like 40k in mini size :(

Exactly, in old epic £10 would buy you a space marine battle group that was a whole company of marines. There’s less than that in this box, which will probably cost £100.

When did 10 pound get 40 stand infantry, 11 tanks, 8 dreadnoughts and 2 titans?

Less hyperbole tyvm. That's getting ridiculous.

 xttz wrote:

 Tamereth wrote:

Exactly, in old epic £10 would buy you a space marine battle group that was a whole company of marines. There’s less than that in this box, which will probably cost £100.

Yeah, but also the tabletop market was much, much smaller then so they needed to sell 'in bulk' to get started and also attract customers. If buyers during the 90's also needed to spend £100's on extra lead blister pack add-ons in order to have a barely-playable game, then these product ranges would have died off long before Epic 40,000.

Now GW have an established market built on existing AT/AI models and a lot of nostaligia. There's absolutely no incentive for them to take the same approach. These days GW can put out thousands of new boxes for a game and have them sell out in minutes. They're also operating on longer design & production schedules that mean dozens more Epic-scale products are in the pipeline, with hefty investments into injection mold tooling. If they sell you a full sized army on day one, what will you want to buy in six months time?

Yes although a lot of the starter boxes are relative good value (compared to GWs own single boxes). Once you factor in an FLGS discount, it will probably be the cheapest way to get a 'core' army. How cheap that is exactly though remains to be seen!

As I expected with the modern detail level multi part models, Epic is far from the bang for your buck it used to be.

If the "223 miniatures" didn't count each stand as 5 models it would have been a nice box.

I’m wondering how detailed the rules are going to be.

I say this due to the Tanks having a choice of Sponsons. Which could be suggestive the guns on your models will matter on the board.

Tsagualsa wrote:
Also, by inflation alone, £10 from back in '97 are the equivalent of £25 today (probably more like £30, it's an average rate after all). I know it's hard to accept, but 1997 was 26 years ago

To be clear, £10 from 1997 are £18.74 from today's money, according to the Bank of England:

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator

They might only be £25 or even £30 in GW-land.

Also, I can pretty much guarantee you're not going to get a full not-Epic SM company for £30.

 Albertorius wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Also, by inflation alone, £10 from back in '97 are the equivalent of £25 today (probably more like £30, it's an average rate after all). I know it's hard to accept, but 1997 was 26 years ago

To be clear, £10 from 1997 are £18.74 from today's money...

They might only be £25 or even £30 in GW-land.

Fun fact, most of the inflation occurred in 1997!

I bought a Tyranid infantry box in 1995 and got five identical sprues for £5. Picked up the same box in 1997 when Epic 40k released and it had two sprues for the same price.

 xttz wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Also, by inflation alone, £10 from back in '97 are the equivalent of £25 today (probably more like £30, it's an average rate after all). I know it's hard to accept, but 1997 was 26 years ago

To be clear, £10 from 1997 are £18.74 from today's money...

They might only be £25 or even £30 in GW-land.

Fun fact, most of the inflation occurred in 1997!

I bought a Tyranid infantry box in 1995 and got five identical sprues for £5. Picked up the same box in 1997 when Epic 40k released and it had two sprues for the same price.

The Epic 40k were the only ones we got to see over here. After that it all went Specialist Games and prices skyrocketed.

 xttz wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Also, by inflation alone, £10 from back in '97 are the equivalent of £25 today (probably more like £30, it's an average rate after all). I know it's hard to accept, but 1997 was 26 years ago

To be clear, £10 from 1997 are £18.74 from today's money...

They might only be £25 or even £30 in GW-land.

Fun fact, most of the inflation occurred in 1997!

I bought a Tyranid infantry box in 1995 and got five identical sprues for £5. Picked up the same box in 1997 when Epic 40k released and it had two sprues for the same price.

I remember those small boxes, in 1st edition when the one that had the stompa with "only" five sprues was one I thought was naff, IIRC the Space Marine & Imperial Guard ones had ten (I ended up with ten plastic land speeders and it was only one per frame)

Seem to remember picking up 1st edition Space Marine, the boxed game for about £20 as well (got it, Mighty Empires and something else for £50)

Looking good.

So...

Some of the Aeronautica Imperialis stuff is explicity *not* available during the Horus Heresy era (the Tau stuff, for instance). Do all of the AI Imperial aircraft date back to the Heresy? Or are some of them post-Heresy, and thus probably not usable with this new game (yet)?
.

Lightning fighters are post-Heresy as the designs were recovered from a STC fragment and spent 500 years being deliberated upon by the Adeptus Mechanicus before being cleared for production.

Iracundus wrote:
Lightning fighters are post-Heresy as the designs were recovered from a STC fragment and spent 500 years being deliberated upon by the Adeptus Mechanicus before being cleared for production.

The Voss pattern was Heresy Era, but too complex for unaugmented pilots.

I don't play AI, but have got some of the Ork Bombers, which are just wonderfully characterful. Hopefully they will release a Stormbird!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m wondering how detailed the rules are going to be.

I say this due to the Tanks having a choice of Sponsons. Which could be suggestive the guns on your models will matter on the board.

That's interesting - it could mean Armageddon, as the EpicAU rules have that sort of granularity ( and the distinction between anti-armour and anti-infantry weaponry).

Eumerin wrote:
So...

Some of the Aeronautica Imperialis stuff is explicity *not* available during the Horus Heresy era (the Tau stuff, for instance). Do all of the AI Imperial aircraft date back to the Heresy? Or are some of them post-Heresy, and thus probably not usable with this new game (yet)?
.

Flipping through the Horus Heresy: Aeronautica Imperialis rulebook in front of me, the following are all allowed during Heresy era games (I'm assuming they will also be allowed in Legions Imperialis):


Legiones Astartes

Xiphon Interceptor
Storm Eagle Assault Craft
Fire Raptor Gunship
Thunderhawk Gunship


Divisio Aeronautica

Thunderbolt
Thunderbolt Fury
Avenger Strike Fighter
Lighting and Lightning Strike Fighter
Marauder Bomber
Marauder Destroyer
Marauder Colossus
Marauder Pathfinder
Arvus Lighter


Legio Custodes

Ares Gunship


The only two 40K Imperial craft missing from the Horus Heresy rules are the Vulture and Valkyrie.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I suspect the game is Warhammer The Horus Heresy Legions, and the Imperialis bit is the box set name.

So that leaves the door open for future releases like Legions: Aeldari..?

Aeronautica Imperialis already left the door wide open for Aeldari... and Orks.

Also, probably more like, Great Crusade: Aeldari...

artific3r wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I suspect the game is Warhammer The Horus Heresy Legions, and the Imperialis bit is the box set name.

So that leaves the door open for future releases like Legions: Aeldari..?

Aeronautica Imperialis already left the door wide open for Aeldari... and Orks.

Also, probably more like, Great Crusade: Aeldari...

Aeronautica Imperialis isn't a Horus Heresy game. They have one book devoted to the Horus Heresy, but the rest are standard 40k material. I'm pretty sure they did this because there just weren't enough Imperial aircraft designs to support a standalone game specifically for the Horus Heresy.

There might eventually be other races introduced but don't hold your breath. After all, Adeptus Titanicus was released in 2018 and we have yet to see anything new aside from "yet another set of guns" for a model that already exists.

There is a big difference between saying the door is open for xenos and saying xenos are confirmed. Aeronautica shows that GW has already been thinking about forward compatibility with Epic scale xenos armies. Nobody is saying it’s going to happen, only that GW has considered it and has planned for it as a potential (but not guaranteed) eventuality.

We can only observe what paths GW is laying out for themselves. Whether or not they will take those paths remains to be seen.

...now I get what rubbed me the wrong way.

Not a single fething transport in sight. On a melon-fething EPIC game. Do they really expect everything to just footslog? What are those, orks?

I really like those new sculpts.

I wonder how many units you need and how good the rules are. Okay, will never play it, like I don't get to play everything else. But a good ruleset - or higher attention for older editions - might push me to paint the units and vehicles I already...found.

It’s been a long weekend, so my maths might be off, but the numbers in the WarCom article don’t seem right.

They say there’s 106 marines and walkers and 104 Auxilia and walkers.
But counting the minis in the image and in the article description I get 94 marines and 102 Auxilia.

Anyone willing to double check that for me?

 Albertorius wrote:
...now I get what rubbed me the wrong way.

Not a single fething transport in sight. On a melon-fething EPIC game. Do they really expect everything to just footslog? What are those, orks?

Having separate transport kits, like rhinos, Land Raiders, dracosians and aurox make for easy upsells to the core box, which shows off the killy stuff.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
...now I get what rubbed me the wrong way.

Not a single fething transport in sight. On a melon-fething EPIC game. Do they really expect everything to just footslog? What are those, orks?

Having separate transport kits, like rhinos, Land Raiders, dracosians and aurox make for easy upsells to the core box, which shows off the killy stuff.

Ahh, Aurox and Carnodons. Really looking forward to see detachments of them rolling up the field. Also looking forward to the ordinatus.

One thing that occurs to me is that, with the new 40k and the removal of Forgeworld units to legends, they’ve mentioned things like blight drones and brass scorpions being heresy era units. If so, I hope we see them appearing in Epic alongside other Dæmon Engines. Combine them with Ruinstorm Dæmons and you could have an old school ish Epic Chaos army.

twentypence wrote:
It’s been a long weekend, so my maths might be off, but the numbers in the WarCom article don’t seem right.

They say there’s 106 marines and walkers and 104 Auxilia and walkers.
But counting the minis in the image and in the article description I get 94 marines and 102 Auxilia.

Anyone willing to double check that for me?

Yep, you are correct.

Trying to figure out how army construction could work. I’m taking a guess that it may be like Epic: A.

I’m guessing, from the box photo, you select a Tactical Detachment with command + upgrades (Cataphractii Terminators, Assault Sqaud, etc) and then support detachments (Predators, Sicarans or Contemptors) with Titans and Aircraft being a Max of 25% of army total?

Same for Solar Auxilia - Lasrifle Section and command + upgrades (Storm Squad, Veletaris, Charonites) and then support of Leman Russ, Malacodors and Sentinels.

Thoughts?

 Pacific wrote:
I don't play AI, but have got some of the Ork Bombers, which are just wonderfully characterful. Hopefully they will release a Stormbird!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m wondering how detailed the rules are going to be.

I say this due to the Tanks having a choice of Sponsons. Which could be suggestive the guns on your models will matter on the board.

That's interesting - it could mean Armageddon, as the EpicAU rules have that sort of granularity ( and the distinction between anti-armour and anti-infantry weaponry).

It could also just be purely aesthetic. A “we can, so we should” type thing.

Now, hopes and dreams stuff. On account what follows is stuff we just don’t know right now.

1. Orders System from 2nd Ed. This was an important part of the experience. Different orders let your unit do different things, and indeed dictated when. You had to consider your own options and try to second guess your opponent. With alternating activation, it prevented an opponent simply reacting their way out of trouble.

2. One Blister = One Unit. This is an absolute must. If we’re tied to a basic unit composition (so X stands, Y Predators etc) then the relevant miniatures must be sold in that minimum.

3. Anything but Epic 40,000’s firepower chart. Whilst it worked nicely for BFG, Epic 40,000 was crap. Yes I would of course prefer the more granular 2nd Ed where every unit had its own weapon profile, but I think for speed of play and indeed better variety, Epic Armageddon AP/AT is probably what we’ll get.

4. I suppose Blast Markers, as with cunning play you could at least suppress your opponent someone even if you did little to no damage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zedmeister wrote:
Trying to figure out how army construction could work. I’m taking a guess that it may be like Epic: A.

I’m guessing, from the box photo, you select a Tactical Detachment with command + upgrades (Cataphractii Terminators, Assault Sqaud, etc) and then support detachments (Predators, Sicarans or Contemptors) with Titans and Aircraft being a Max of 25% of army total?

Same for Solar Auxilia - Lasrifle Section and command + upgrades (Storm Squad, Veletaris, Charonites) and then support of Leman Russ, Malacodors and Sentinels.

Thoughts?

Sounding like a borked record, but 2nd Ed was for me the pinnacle of army design.

Company Card + 0-5 Detachment Cards + 0-1 Special Cards.

Formalised military structures. Different rules for different armies as to exactly how those interacted (Orks for instance were essentially building ever bigger mobs, Space Marines could all act fully independently, IG needed a command web etc)

 Shadow Walker wrote:

twentypence wrote:
It’s been a long weekend, so my maths might be off, but the numbers in the WarCom article don’t seem right.

They say there’s 106 marines and walkers and 104 Auxilia and walkers.
But counting the minis in the image and in the article description I get 94 marines and 102 Auxilia.

Anyone willing to double check that for me?

Yep, you are correct.

Those will probably be sergeant options, for example in the images you can see the Solar Auxilia Tactical Command Section has a Legate Commander on one base and a Augury scanner? on the other. That choice would cover the two additional auxilia bodies.

I agree MDG, list building 2nd edition style makes sense for me, and makes sense in Epic scale. Epic Armageddon was more about trying to field various typical 28mm scale armies together, which just didn’t sit well with me. I want full Companies on the table, with whatever extra support they wish to bring.

Currently lounging in my pit enjoying some Judy Justice.

When I’m up, I’ll grab my Armies of the Imperium expansion and do some sample pics of how 2nd Ed worked.

Zedmeister - I think you could well be right there. Another hint towards Armageddon-type rules perhaps.

 Albertorius wrote:
...now I get what rubbed me the wrong way.

Not a single fething transport in sight. On a melon-fething EPIC game. Do they really expect everything to just footslog? What are those, orks?

Haha yes I see what you mean! The BIG strength of marines, in pretty much every edition of Epic, was the mobility. So this is a departure from every other version!

I am guessing, as posted above, a box of rhinos is going to be one of the day one additional boxes.

 Albertorius wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Also, by inflation alone, £10 from back in '97 are the equivalent of £25 today (probably more like £30, it's an average rate after all). I know it's hard to accept, but 1997 was 26 years ago

To be clear, £10 from 1997 are £18.74 from today's money, according to the Bank of England:

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator

They might only be £25 or even £30 in GW-land.

Also, I can pretty much guarantee you're not going to get a full not-Epic SM company for £30.

In the interest of fairness, i used another calculator that put out £23,67, which i rounded out to £25. I suppose the difference is rooted in the method used, measuring inflation is a as much a question of definitions as of actual measurement - i did not intend any white-knighting or whatever, i literally used the first calculator i found

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
3. Anything but Epic 40,000’s firepower chart. Whilst it worked nicely for BFG, Epic 40,000 was crap. Yes I would of course prefer the more granular 2nd Ed where every unit had its own weapon profile, but I think for speed of play and indeed better variety, Epic Armageddon AP/AT is probably what we’ll get.

I love how opinion is so easily expressed as fact >_>

Epic Armageddon, where you have to roll 4 dice for every single fething Leman Russ is certainly... a preference. But try to do that for a battle with the amount of stuff you actually field on an Epic 40k battle and well... "speed of play" is not something that comes up.

It does work for E:A, but that's more because you don't actually play that big of a batlle. A bigass 3k points E:A battle is barely 1.500 points in E:40k... and we frequently play 3-4.000 as a "regular" game.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
3. Anything but Epic 40,000’s firepower chart. Whilst it worked nicely for BFG, Epic 40,000 was crap. Yes I would of course prefer the more granular 2nd Ed where every unit had its own weapon profile, but I think for speed of play and indeed better variety, Epic Armageddon AP/AT is probably what we’ll get.

I love how opinion is so easily expressed as fact >_>

Epic Armageddon, where you have to roll 4 dice for every single fething Leman Russ is certainly... a preference. But try to do that for a battle with the amount of stuff you actually field on an Epic 40k battle and well... "speed of play" is not something that comes up.

I would bet that default game size is shrinking significantly to account for the 50x or whatever increase in price per model.

Better than “count up your total firepower, then consult the chart, then consult the chart modifiers, then grab that many dice, then roll them”.

It was a horrendous system for Epic, spesh coming off the back of 2nd Ed.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
3. Anything but Epic 40,000’s firepower chart. Whilst it worked nicely for BFG, Epic 40,000 was crap. Yes I would of course prefer the more granular 2nd Ed where every unit had its own weapon profile, but I think for speed of play and indeed better variety, Epic Armageddon AP/AT is probably what we’ll get.

I love how opinion is so easily expressed as fact >_>

Epic Armageddon, where you have to roll 4 dice for every single fething Leman Russ is certainly... a preference. But try to do that for a battle with the amount of stuff you actually field on an Epic 40k battle and well... "speed of play" is not something that comes up.

I would bet that default game size is shrinking significantly to account for the 50x or whatever increase in price per model.

More or less a given, yeah. At some point you'll feel like playing mini-30k


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Better than “count up your total firepower, then consult the chart, then consult the chart modifiers, then grab that many dice, then roll them”.

It was a horrendous system for Epic, spesh coming off the back of 2nd Ed.

Not better at all, no. You just like "check your units, count them up, then check how many weapons they have. Then check how many of those are AP weapons, and how many of those are AT. Then check up the actual roll needed for each, and split it in however many different pools you need, then roll each pool" more.

Also?

Capitol Imperialis or i riot. And a Leviathan.

Of course, as soon as I decry it isn't going to happen, they release it...

I still have my old beetlebacks & epic stuff from the original Space Marine set, are the infantry from that old stuff going to look silly small next to the new?

As much as I like the look of the new models, sadly I haven't played a game of Epic since the 90's, so at best I might get a box of the new marine models. If I were to get serious, I imagine I'll be firing up the 3D printer for vehicles & such.

 Pacific wrote:
Zedmeister - I think you could well be right there. Another hint towards Armageddon-type rules perhaps.

No blast markers though. Pity, as the 4th edition suppression and crossfire rules were just ace. You didn’t need to kill to suppress or break and it really rewarded smart tactical gameplay. Never know, though…

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Better than “count up your total firepower, then consult the chart, then consult the chart modifiers, then grab that many dice, then roll them”.

It was a horrendous system for Epic, spesh coming off the back of 2nd Ed.

Epic 40000 was my favourite version of epic to play, It actually felt right for the scale. Loved it.

So... how many "Legions Imperialis" points would y'all think something like this would be? Do you think this would be playable for a single side of a battle? How about with added titans/knights?

At least 3 points.

 Pacific wrote:


Haha yes I see what you mean! The BIG strength of marines, in pretty much every edition of Epic, was the mobility. So this is a departure from every other version!

I am guessing, as posted above, a box of rhinos is going to be one of the day one additional boxes.

Apart from Marine Dreadnoughts. From what I remember, they were slow and ended up dragging back the more mobile elements of a detachment. You had to drop them in somewhere and they’d end up pretty much stuck in that location unless you used your aircraft to redeploy them.

 Pacific wrote:
Haha yes I see what you mean! The BIG strength of marines, in pretty much every edition of Epic, was the mobility. So this is a departure from every other version!

I am guessing, as posted above, a box of rhinos is going to be one of the day one additional boxes.

Yay [/s] Hopefully at least the box will be like, ten Rhinos each or something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zedmeister wrote:
Apart from Marine Dreadnoughts. From what I remember, they were slow and ended up dragging back the more mobile elements of a detachment. You had to drop them in somewhere and they’d end up pretty much stuck in that location unless you used your aircraft to redeploy them.

Being walkers they did work well defending objectives, though, so there's that. But yes, dreads tended to drag units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
At least 3 points.

Hey, maybe each detachment is a point ^^

Oh, hey, a somewhat decent comparison:

3k points of space marines, Epic Armageddon:



3k points of space marines, Epic 40.000:



Rhinos, Rhinos everywhere.... xD

 Albertorius wrote:

Yay [/s] Hopefully at least the box will be like, ten Rhinos each or something.

I fully expect box and sprue style to match Aeronautica.



Basic sprue is tiny and has 2-3 intricately detailed multi part models, two copies in a 40€ box.

That'd be kinda gak, IMHO. But to be expected, yes.

Looking at Etsy, first set of 3d printed Rhinos I found were £6.99 for 3, including postage.
Interested to see if that shop gets shut down, and how much GW will charge for plastic.

Andykp wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Better than “count up your total firepower, then consult the chart, then consult the chart modifiers, then grab that many dice, then roll them”.

It was a horrendous system for Epic, spesh coming off the back of 2nd Ed.

Epic 40000 was my favourite version of epic to play, It actually felt right for the scale. Loved it.

Same. If I have any intention of buying into this release, it will only be for using with E40k anyway. Much like how I cherry picked from the AT range.

lord_blackfang wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Yay [/s] Hopefully at least the box will be like, ten Rhinos each or something.

I fully expect box and sprue style to match Aeronautica.



Basic sprue is tiny and has 2-3 intricately detailed multi part models, two copies in a 40€ box.

Yeah this is exactly what I'm expecting as well. I just hope that it isn't just 4 tanks to a €40 box. I suspect it will be 4-6 to a box and that is a huge increase to the price scales of Epic of the past. You will be looking at a couple of grand for one set of tanks alone for the sort of games you should be able to play at this scale!

My biggest wish/hope for this (if the marines are close enough in scale to the most recent 3rd party ones) is that we can get a battleforce/starter set cheap enough to bulk up on basic stuff. If I buy into this new version, I have no intention of treating it just like a 'smaller scale 40k'.

 zedmeister wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Zedmeister - I think you could well be right there. Another hint towards Armageddon-type rules perhaps.

No blast markers though. Pity, as the 4th edition suppression and crossfire rules were just ace. You didn’t need to kill to suppress or break and it really rewarded smart tactical gameplay. Never know, though…

'They shall be my Space Marines, and they shall know no tactics!'

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
...now I get what rubbed me the wrong way.

Not a single fething transport in sight. On a melon-fething EPIC game. Do they really expect everything to just footslog? What are those, orks?

Having separate transport kits, like rhinos, Land Raiders, dracosians and aurox make for easy upsells to the core box, which shows off the killy stuff.

Could be like 40k 4th(?), where a large proportion of your army's monetary cost was in the obligatory, and surprisingly expensive, transports.

No_Marines_Here wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
...now I get what rubbed me the wrong way.

Not a single fething transport in sight. On a melon-fething EPIC game. Do they really expect everything to just footslog? What are those, orks?

Having separate transport kits, like rhinos, Land Raiders, dracosians and aurox make for easy upsells to the core box, which shows off the killy stuff.

Could be like 40k 4th(?), where a large proportion of your army's monetary cost was in the obligatory, and surprisingly expensive, transports.

Heh. It's funny... with the years, regular 40k has been balooning, with ever bigger armies and units... while apparently at the same time Epic seems to be shrinking in number of units fielded.

Kinda looks like GW wants them to interesect in Apocalypse xD

 Albertorius wrote:
So... how many "Legions Imperialis" points would y'all think something like this would be? Do you think this would be playable for a single side of a battle? How about with added titans/knights?

Spoiler:

Nice squad markings on the Rhinos. You will be able to play right away unlike those unfortunates like me who sold their Epic collection back in the day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albertorius wrote:
...now I get what rubbed me the wrong way.

Not a single fething transport in sight. On a melon-fething EPIC game. Do they really expect everything to just footslog? What are those, orks?

No, you are supposed to build trenches and put your models into them. Then at the sound of the whistle everybody frantically climbs up and charges into no man´s land to die a horrible death.

 RexHavoc wrote:


Yeah this is exactly what I'm expecting as well. I just hope that it isn't just 4 tanks to a €40 box. I suspect it will be 4-6 to a box and that is a huge increase to the price scales of Epic of the past. You will be looking at a couple of grand for one set of tanks alone for the sort of games you should be able to play at this scale!

My biggest wish/hope for this (if the marines are close enough in scale to the most recent 3rd party ones) is that we can get a battleforce/starter set cheap enough to bulk up on basic stuff. If I buy into this new version, I have no intention of treating it just like a 'smaller scale 40k'.

As I said a few pages ago, Epic won't be directly comparable to Aeronautica in terms of pricing. The latter is more like Necromunda or Blood Bowl, and the products are priced based on the fact that people won't buy them in any huge volume. One or two boxes are typically enough to play a game with any given faction.

I definitely think we'll likely see a few tiers of Epic pricing that mirror how Titanicus and last year's Heresy game worked:

The core set will offer an initial discount over individual purchases. Once the range has been expanded we may also see this refreshed with a new starter box after 1-2 years, like Titanicus did.

I would expect the staple units like rhino transports to be priced based on a high volume of sales, much like how several of the new HH vehicles released with lower prices than their 40k equivalents. Many of these kits can potentially be sold to every single Epic player, rather than like say Aeronautica where only Eldar players buy Eldar planes.

There will inevitably be some kind of bundle deals in parallel to the core set, packaging several units for marines, imperial army, or knights into a single box with a discount. That might take the form of permanent 'combat patrol' style faction starter boxes, temporary one-off products like the AT titan maniple and knight boxes, or Xmas 'battleforce' sets. It should be possible to build a large army with a limited number of core units relatively cheaply through this.

More rarely used or specialist units like aircraft and centrepiece superheavies will be sold at a premium price like Aeronautica.

I have high hope the one in charge of this game read the horus heresy rulebook as well as lore from google so they don't make blatantly mistakes like Aeronautica Imperialis books.

Price will be very important on this one

EBay currently has a lot of rhinos on it. Also the 1990s marine infantry/ transport sprue for less than £20. Grab them while they are available

Also also also?

Maybe we’ll see Heresy Era Squats. Leagues of Votann confirm they were part of it. And I’d love to see updates to their old gear. Spesh properly put through the Resizeograph.

Looking at the box contents, with infantry all in either 2 or 4 bases, I suspect that each side has one large infantry sprue doubled up that includes the dreadnoughts and sentinels respectively. Then aeronauticus sized sprues for 3 predators, 2 sicarans, 2 malcadors, 4 russes with the various options that will be doubled up for individual releases.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Looking at the box contents, with infantry all in either 2 or 4 bases, I suspect that each side has one large infantry sprue doubled up that includes the dreadnoughts and sentinels respectively. Then aeronauticus sized sprues for 3 predators, 2 sicarans, 2 malcadors, 4 russes with the various options that will be doubled up for individual releases.

We just know too little to make reasonable guesses about how it will work out. Will their main method of sale be Detachment Boxes with a variety of things? Blisters/Clampacks? Direct-only resin tank? Will much of this line be available in-store, or is it a mostly direct-only affair? What about the rules? How big are games going to be? Will stuff like Warlord titans and equal/greater power level show up regularly? If it will, will it be the majority of one side, or more like a third/quarter of typical game points? And so on and so on.

Well by going how infantry is in that set I am going with this set up:

- 1 Big box of basic troopsm, which I say you can make 3 troops with command, may include some upgrades.
- 1 Or more specialist sets that have more upgrade options.

Andykp wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Better than “count up your total firepower, then consult the chart, then consult the chart modifiers, then grab that many dice, then roll them”.

It was a horrendous system for Epic, spesh coming off the back of 2nd Ed.

Epic 40000 was my favourite version of epic to play, It actually felt right for the scale. Loved it.

Indeed. It's the only version of Epic my group plays. And since we're stating opinion as fact, Epic 40,000 3rd is one of the best rulesets ever written. I have a snowball's chance in hell of this game being based on Epic 40,000 but it sure would be nice. If anything, this game will enter my group is a game we play occasionally but will will almost certainly continue to play Epic 40,000 as our defacto large-scale game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flinty wrote:
EBay currently has a lot of rhinos on it. Also the 1990s marine infantry/ transport sprue for less than £20. Grab them while they are available

The sprues with mk6 marines? I would highly advise against that. Those marines were undersized upon release and, while charming, just look awful. One major issue with all four editions of og Epic is that the internal scaling between infantry, tanks, fliers, titans, were completely off, including infantry within armies _on the same sprue_. Hell, Imperial Guardsmen were taller than those mk6 Space Marines and termagants are somehow significantly larger than orks.

I think the older Epic models weren't ever intended to be scaled correctly, they're more like those little abstract representations you, as a general, would push around on a table/holotable so the exact scale wasn't important

Legiones Imperialis looks like they are actually trying to keep everything in scale with each other, so mixing old & new won't really work. I could maybe see it with new titans & old tanks/infantry (in fact lots of people have put old epic minis on titan bases and they look great)

 zedmeister wrote:
No blast markers though.

Looks like it does have them afterall.

Blast Markers aren’t Blast Templates

They were cardboard standees put next to units that had been shot up, and if memory serves were how you kept track of break points for a formation.

Charax wrote:
I think the older Epic models weren't ever intended to be scaled correctly, they're more like those little abstract representations you, as a general, would push around on a table/holotable so the exact scale wasn't important

Epic scale in the 80's and 90's was heavily restricted by the production technology of the time. Both the original Warlord titan and later Imperator set records within GW for being the largest and most ambitious plastic kits of their generation. However in both cases they couldn't be nearly as large as intended because plastic tooling was relatively far more expensive than it is now. Other designs of titan originally cast with lead would have been similarly far too costly (and too heavy) to release at full size.

Epic infantry models were often made just large enough so that you could tell similar units apart, resulting in guardsmen at the same size as space marines. In order to support the needed details things like greater daemon equivalents initially had to be much larger than their 28mm counterparts, who were themselves made smaller than intended due to the cost of lead models.

With modern CAD-developed plastics most of those limitations are all gone. Plastic can support the tiniest details up to the very largest models, and the only restriction is how confident GW are for any given kit to sell enough units to turn a profit.

Yep blast markers effectively kept track of how much fire a unit had taken and was used for various morale-like effects

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Blast Markers aren’t Blast Templates

They were cardboard standees put next to units that had been shot up, and if memory serves were how you kept track of break points for a formation.

In Epic Armageddon blast markers also suppressed units and hindered them from shooting. You got one BM everytime you were under fire (regardless of any casualties) and one per unit destroyed. Some weapons, and large barrage attacks, could also give you additional markers. If the amount of markers reached the number of units in your formation, the formation was broken. The designer notes put it like this:

Blast markers are an attempt to show in a simple and
playable manner that the psychological effect of fire is
every bit as important, if not more important, than the
actual number of casualties caused. Blast markers
represent a whole range of personal disasters occurring
to the units in a formation: things being damaged,
squads being scattered, breaking or fleeing, and so on.
They are a vital part of Epic so don’t overlook their
importance. The rules for Blast markers reflect the fact
that most troops will tend to grind to a halt and seek
cover when they come under even quite a small amount
of fire (that’s why a single sniper can slow down many
times his own number of enemy troops), but will only
withdraw when a combination of casualties and
sustained enemy pressure convinces them that their
position is untenable and they should withdraw (which
is why a single sniper will rarely drive the enemy off)

You could get rid of BM by rallying or regrouping.

Crossfire also added blast markers. If you could draw a line between two of your formations through an enemy formation, they’d suffer additional blast markers. Encourages outflanking and positioning as well as air assaults to put enemy formations under pressure.

wondering if what you will get is blocky "fixed" formations, with a card that records damage and stats

keep in mind Adeptus Titanicus is basically totally different to what it used to be

may well go the route of "the contents of this box includes the card to deploy it", with only a few weapon swaps.

I'd love it to have the flavour and detail the 1st edition had but not holding my breath

the models look nice, this will stand or fall on pricing and the rules

I was pretty excited for the return of Epic, but 30K doesn't really do it for me.

 dreadblade wrote:
I was pretty excited for the return of Epic, but 30K doesn't really do it for me.

Same for me. Although I like 30k as a setting, I wanted to play Tyranids, and unless this version will get super popular, and thus alowing for 40k version, it will not be possible very soon or maybe even never.

Can't see any order dice either

 Tastyfish wrote:
Can't see any order dice either

Orders may still exist an be marked in some other way, e.g. with cards; also, it's hard to make out anything distinctly in that pixelated shot. It might also be possible that some of the accessories are sold separately because they're not strictly necessary for play and easy to make another handful of pounds from for GW.

Wonder if we might end up seeing Emperor Class Titans now.

They didn’t make sense for AT, as they’d basically be your Maniple. But within Epic? Still a significant part of your force, sure. But far from the only thing you took.

Plus I want to get scuttling into legs and blowing them off again. That was always good for a laugh.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Tastyfish wrote:
Can't see any order dice either

Orders may still exist an be marked in some other way, e.g. with cards; also, it's hard to make out anything distinctly in that pixelated shot. It might also be possible that some of the accessories are sold separately because they're not strictly necessary for play and easy to make another handful of pounds from for GW.

It might even more be more like Warmaster or Titanicus's repair roles (roll x dice per unit, some orders are trickier than others), but no visible order dice and blast markers whilst having visible templates and range rulers says to me that it's not a straight port over of Epic: Armageddon that had been rumoured at one point.

Might even be something more directly compatible with Titanicus...with that game slotting in as advanced rules if you have a lot of Titans.
Fingers crossed we get a vague outline next week.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wonder if we might end up seeing Emperor Class Titans now.

They didn’t make sense for AT, as they’d basically be your Maniple. But within Epic? Still a significant part of your force, sure. But far from the only thing you took.

Plus I want to get scuttling into legs and blowing them off again. That was always good for a laugh.

Yeah it was pretty hard to justify models like Imperators under AT rules because half of their functionality was designed around Epic; weapon systems for all kinds of targets, troop transport capacity, etc.

I think the same idea applies to other units like Rapier scout titans too. They lend themselves to lighter weapons more suited for clearing infantry and tanks. Hopefully they show up as part of Epic, with rules ported for AT.

Still I can't see GW wanting to make Emperor-class titan models until near the end of this release cycle, much like how the Warmaster released 3 years into AT. It's a lot of production resources that could go into multiple other kits, including terrain.

leopard wrote:
wondering if what you will get is blocky "fixed" formations, with a card that records damage and stats

keep in mind Adeptus Titanicus is basically totally different to what it used to be

may well go the route of "the contents of this box includes the card to deploy it", with only a few weapon swaps.

I'd love it to have the flavour and detail the 1st edition had but not holding my breath

the models look nice, this will stand or fall on pricing and the rules

That's basically how 1st, 2nd, and 4th editions were - you bought formations and had a little bit of customizability. Epic 40k introduced the "make your own detachment" for maximum flexibility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:


Epic infantry models were often made just large enough so that you could tell similar units apart, resulting in guardsmen at the same size as space marines. In order to support the needed details things like greater daemon equivalents initially had to be much larger than their 28mm counterparts, who were themselves made smaller than intended due to the cost of lead models.

The inconsistency was often within the same frame. The 1997 Space Marine frame had Scouts and characters towering over the mk7 tacticals. The original metal daemon infantry (not even greater daemons, but the horrors and bloodletters) were so large (like, larger than dreadnoughts) that they were based one per unit base (these were eventually corrected with the 1998 plastic Chaos frame - but then the Chaos Marines on that frame were larger than Space Marine Terminators lol). This always bugged me because they produced metal infantry during the Titanicus / Epic 1st era that were sized well but somehow completely went insane with Epic 2nd edition metal releases

If you played Epic during the nineties like myself (started with 2nd ed) you just had to shrug because nothing matched anything else

The only version of Epic I have ever played was Epic Armageddon, and it is absolutely one of my favorite games of all time. Its take on suppression, via Blast Markers is just perfection to me for representing a battle at this scale.

It sounds like all the other versions of Epic were functionally a different game altogether, though?

 judgedoug wrote:

leopard wrote:
wondering if what you will get is blocky "fixed" formations, with a card that records damage and stats

keep in mind Adeptus Titanicus is basically totally different to what it used to be

may well go the route of "the contents of this box includes the card to deploy it", with only a few weapon swaps.

I'd love it to have the flavour and detail the 1st edition had but not holding my breath

the models look nice, this will stand or fall on pricing and the rules

That's basically how 1st, 2nd, and 4th editions were - you bought formations and had a little bit of customizability. Epic 40k introduced the "make your own detachment" for maximum flexibility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:


Epic infantry models were often made just large enough so that you could tell similar units apart, resulting in guardsmen at the same size as space marines. In order to support the needed details things like greater daemon equivalents initially had to be much larger than their 28mm counterparts, who were themselves made smaller than intended due to the cost of lead models.

The inconsistency was often within the same frame. The 1997 Space Marine frame had Scouts and characters towering over the mk7 tacticals. The original metal daemon infantry (not even greater daemons, but the horrors and bloodletters) were so large (like, larger than dreadnoughts) that they were based one per unit base (these were eventually corrected with the 1998 plastic Chaos frame - but then the Chaos Marines on that frame were larger than Space Marine Terminators lol). This always bugged me because they produced metal infantry during the Titanicus / Epic 1st era that were sized well but somehow completely went insane with Epic 2nd edition metal releases

If you played Epic during the nineties like myself (started with 2nd ed) you just had to shrug because nothing matched anything else

yes but in 1st you bought say a "Tactical detachment", six stands and three Rhino, my concern is the "detachment" will now be closer to a company with support units as one "thing"

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
The only version of Epic I have ever played was Epic Armageddon, and it is absolutely one of my favorite games of all time. Its take on suppression, via Blast Markers is just perfection to me for representing a battle at this scale.

It sounds like all the other versions of Epic were functionally a different game altogether, though?

Epic had some wild variation between editions - it started out very detailled, with stuff like detailled hit and damage charts for different superheavies, detailled weapon rules and so on, then the 'Epic 40k' edition changed a lot of that, reducing shooting basically to a single firepower chart, barrage weapons and a handful of special rules instead, that tanked pretty hard and support was cut soon after the release, and then Epic: Armaggedon restored a lot of the complexity, but not the point of detail the earliest editions had. And of course Epic:Armaggedon came at the time when Specialist Games were banished to their own, undersupported niche and withered on the vine (at least considering official support) as a consequence.

1st edition was detailed, but good and it worked

2nd edition streamlined a few bits, slightly simplified force creation, changed how titans worked and consolidated some profiles

from what I saw after that GW tried to make a "pure" game with firepower ratings etc but at the same time completely killed the flavour of it

Net Epic seems to be a decent compromise though

Epic Armageddon was probably the best refinement.

Its immediate predecessor took all the flavour out the game, but introduced some new and interesting things, like blast marker suppression and crossfire adding to that.

Epic Armageddon took the best bits of that and 2nd Ed and produced a pretty decent game. Sadly by then Epic 40K had wreaked it’s havoc and it proved too little, too late.

suspect also GW were worried about it taking sales from 40k in 28mm

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/02/sunday-preview-a-primarch-a-rebel-and-a-kommando-walk-into-a-warhammer-store/

Next week on Warhammer Community we will be revealing a new Star Player for Blood Bowl, and taking a much closer look at Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis, including a look at the core concepts, and answers to your burning questions.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Epic Armageddon took the best bits of that and 2nd Ed and produced a pretty decent game. Sadly by then Epic 40K had wreaked it’s havoc and it proved too little, too late.

It was not only that Epic 40k was not a good game, it was also that weird ghetto the Specialist Games were put in. I have no idea how it was handled in the UK, but in Germany at that time it meant that anything Specialist Games might as well not have existed - all content was put into (english) magazines that got no translation (unlike White Dwarf, which had it's own editorial staff that made translations and produced their own content in German as well), were a hassle to order and obtain (you basically had to do mail order in the UK, with added charges for currency exchange and whatnot) and so a lot of people who would have been interested in it were actively pushed out of that particular game because GW literally constructed obstacles on the way to their product. It was just about bearable if you were fluent in english, had an internet connection and either a bank that was good at doing international stuff or a credit card (all of that not very common in Germany at that time), but it definitely absolutely killed the visibility of the game, impulse purchases and FLGS gaming.

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/02/sunday-preview-a-primarch-a-rebel-and-a-kommando-walk-into-a-warhammer-store/

Next week on Warhammer Community we will be revealing a new Star Player for Blood Bowl, and taking a much closer look at Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis, including a look at the core concepts, and answers to your burning questions.

excellent, should be reasonably clear quickly if its a reheat of something old or a ground up re-write, plus how it links to Titanicus (if it links to Titanicus)

Ooh there we go, so hopefully not too long to wait on the rules front.

Mozzamanx wrote:Looking at Etsy, first set of 3d printed Rhinos I found were £6.99 for 3, including postage.
Interested to see if that shop gets shut down, and how much GW will charge for plastic.

There are tons of the original Epic rhinos still about on eBay, usually reasonably priced as lots of the things sold across editions. Vanguard also do a nice 'not Rhino, which looks close enough to an M113.. sorry, to a Rhino

judgedoug wrote:

Andykp wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Better than “count up your total firepower, then consult the chart, then consult the chart modifiers, then grab that many dice, then roll them”.

It was a horrendous system for Epic, spesh coming off the back of 2nd Ed.

Epic 40000 was my favourite version of epic to play, It actually felt right for the scale. Loved it.

Indeed. It's the only version of Epic my group plays. And since we're stating opinion as fact, Epic 40,000 3rd is one of the best rulesets ever written. I have a snowball's chance in hell of this game being based on Epic 40,000 but it sure would be nice. If anything, this game will enter my group is a game we play occasionally but will will almost certainly continue to play Epic 40,000 as our defacto large-scale game.

It might have more than a snowballs chance! The lack of blast markers in the photos makes me think Armageddon -style rules are less likely, as they are an integral part of how that game plays. Jervis Johnson said the Epic 40,000 rules were the best rules he ever wrote, if this was indeed the last game he was involved.in before retirement, that sounds a bit more likely.
But then I look at the number of minis, and it seems too small for Epic 40,000, and for that to be any sort of meaningful game size..

Maybe it is something new? Maybe they have decided, hey I know we have two of the finest rulesets produced during GW's golden age by legends of the company in our back catalogue, with community feedback which has honed those games into perfectly balanced, characterful games, but we can do better than that?.. .
That will be some barry-big-balls decision right there if they have!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wonder if we might end up seeing Emperor Class Titans now.

They didn’t make sense for AT, as they’d basically be your Maniple. But within Epic? Still a significant part of your force, sure. But far from the only thing you took.

Plus I want to get scuttling into legs and blowing them off again. That was always good for a laugh.

Eh no. Warmaster would be for game where you can field multiple warlords with ease. When epic had multiples of warlords? Epic armageddon even 1 was tough to fit.

 Pacific wrote:


It might have more than a snowballs chance! The lack of blast markers in the photos makes me think Armageddon -style rules are less likely, as they are an integral part of how that game plays. Jervis Johnson said the Epic 40,000 rules were the best rules he ever wrote, if this was indeed the last game he was involved.in before retirement, that sounds a bit more likely.
But then I look at the number of minis, and it seems too small for Epic 40,000, and for that to be any sort of meaningful game size..

Maybe it is something new? Maybe they have decided, hey I know we have two of the finest rulesets produced during GW's golden age by legends of the company in our back catalogue, with community feedback which has honed those games into perfectly balanced, characterful games, but we can do better than that?.. .
That will be some barry-big-balls decision right there if they have!

This is my main problem with this review really- the set looks nothing more than about what I'd expect the average 40k scale gamer to have as part of their army (perhaps minus the warhounds) It certainly doesn't cry out 'Epic Scale Battles!'. Its more like 'Play games of normal Heresy just very slightly cheaper'.

I'm also surprised they put two warhounds in the set. I know they are playing this off as a '2 player starter', but honestly they should have just done away with that. Would have improved it immensely had there been some knights, a super heavy tank or two, or way more infantry (either marine or human). This feels more like someone in the warehouse had excess stock and decided that would bulk the set up.

I suspect this is an entirely new ruleset. I honestly suspect the rules will support a game size of about 4th Ed size at most. I suspect anyone wanting to play truly epic scale games will have to look to 3rd ed, or pick up the most recent version of apocalypse 40k that was about a few years ago.

If the model scale works for me, and I buy into the range I'll probably play it safe and stockpile everything I'd want for at least two full 3rd Ed size forces rather than risk the range being removed at any time.

1st edition would have handled it fine, had games with half a dozen warlords, and the same again in smaller classes on a side backed by 10-20 companies of troops and vehicles

 Pacific wrote:

It might have more than a snowballs chance! The lack of blast markers in the photos makes me think Armageddon -style rules are less likely, as they are an integral part of how that game plays. Jervis Johnson said the Epic 40,000 rules were the best rules he ever wrote, if this was indeed the last game he was involved.in before retirement, that sounds a bit more likely.
But then I look at the number of minis, and it seems too small for Epic 40,000, and for that to be any sort of meaningful game size..

Maybe it is something new? Maybe they have decided, hey I know we have two of the finest rulesets produced during GW's golden age by legends of the company in our back catalogue, with community feedback which has honed those games into perfectly balanced, characterful games, but we can do better than that?.. .
That will be some barry-big-balls decision right there if they have!

If there are no blast markers, then it's not Epic 40,000 rules. That was the edition that introduced the blast markers / suppression rules.

And (as I said many pages back) I doubt Jervis would risk using the Epic 40K ruleset again even if he were involved. He acknowledged it wasn't the kind of game the fanbase wanted to play. It's a great game, but maybe not a great Games Workshop game, if you see what I mean ...

Maybe the Space Marines will use Armageddon rules, the ordinary guys will use Epic 40K rules and the Titans will use 2nd edition SM/TL rules, so we can go all meta and have the ancient and bitter Epic fanbase civil war represented on the tabletop. Legions Imperialis: The Jervis Heresy.

yes it was a good "pure" game in an abstract sense, what it lacked was a reason to play it, for me there was zero draw into it as against any other game. the 40k connection was at best a thin skin. could have been WW1, could have been an ancients set or rules, could have been modern day

the earlier versions felt constrained to at least try to represent the universe if that makes sense, written around elements of it, not just adding some names as an afterthought

had they actually marketed it under a different brand specifically as a more abstract strategy and tactics game it could have done better

 RexHavoc wrote:

This is my main problem with this review really- the set looks nothing more than about what I'd expect the average 40k scale gamer to have as part of their army (perhaps minus the warhounds) It certainly doesn't cry out 'Epic Scale Battles!'. Its more like 'Play games of normal Heresy just very slightly cheaper'.

So small starter set that contains only small part of average game is average 40k army? Okay sounds like they will be bigger battles than 40k then.

tneva82 wrote:

 RexHavoc wrote:

This is my main problem with this review really- the set looks nothing more than about what I'd expect the average 40k scale gamer to have as part of their army (perhaps minus the warhounds) It certainly doesn't cry out 'Epic Scale Battles!'. Its more like 'Play games of normal Heresy just very slightly cheaper'.

So small starter set that contains only small part of average game is average 40k army? Okay sounds like they will be bigger battles than 40k then.

well as noted apart from the warhounds many 40k armies are larger, especially if thats both sides

if its typical GW an actual game with "only" the starter box will feel very bland and it will be written for a lot more - to be honest I'd prefer the box with that at a reasonable price over twice that at twice the likely price

as long as you can get more, and as long as you can use the marines and infantry alongside each other as a single force

leopard wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 RexHavoc wrote:

This is my main problem with this review really- the set looks nothing more than about what I'd expect the average 40k scale gamer to have as part of their army (perhaps minus the warhounds) It certainly doesn't cry out 'Epic Scale Battles!'. Its more like 'Play games of normal Heresy just very slightly cheaper'.

So small starter set that contains only small part of average game is average 40k army? Okay sounds like they will be bigger battles than 40k then.

well as noted apart from the warhounds many 40k armies are larger, especially if thats both sides

if its typical GW an actual game with "only" the starter box will feel very bland and it will be written for a lot more - to be honest I'd prefer the box with that at a reasonable price over twice that at twice the likely price

as long as you can get more, and as long as you can use the marines and infantry alongside each other as a single force

Imho it's clear they wanted to have at least some sort of centerpiece in form of the titans, and with the rest: they can't really win. If they just had added more Marines, the people that hate everything centering on Marines would have complained, and if it was just Army everybody would have asked 'where are my Marines?'. And if the starter box was too good of a deal, it would have led to problems with it selling out too fast (it will sell out anyway, probably). Keep in mind it's a true starter, with book and everything, not just the box of the week. It's not intended to be an almost-complete force that you don't need to add on stuff to.

Tsagualsa wrote:
I have no idea how it was handled in the UK, but in Germany at that time it meant that anything Specialist Games might as well not have existed..

I remember the UK launch very well. Epic was initially being pushed as GW's third main game system and something they had invested heavily into. Following the initial boxed game release (that I picked up on release day) there were monthly follow-up waves with White Dwarf with a good chunk of the magazine showing off Epic content including updated core units each of the major factions; marines, then orks, tyranids, eldar and guard. Everything was available to buy in stores until near the end of 1997.

However the game clearly did not sell anywhere near their expectations. It took a few months for the sales figures to factor into new issues of White Dwarf, but once they did the change was stark. Any new releases melted away even despite Chaos still not recieving any support for the new edition. Those models finally dropped a full year after Epic 40k first dropped, and was clearly put out to try and recoup some of the investment.

After that GW did something you rarely see these days; a firesale. Not a surprise in hindsight given what we know now. Any remaining Epic 40k stock in stores was unloaded at a 50% discount. I naively picked up a second copy of the boxed game for £25 without realising what that sale actually meant.

I think GW taking what had been injection plastic models in 1st edition and literally recasting them into metal at higher prices didn't help

leopard wrote:
as long as you can get more, and as long as you can use the marines and infantry alongside each other as a single force

It was said on the stream that the entire box can be used as one army.

leopard wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 RexHavoc wrote:

This is my main problem with this review really- the set looks nothing more than about what I'd expect the average 40k scale gamer to have as part of their army (perhaps minus the warhounds) It certainly doesn't cry out 'Epic Scale Battles!'. Its more like 'Play games of normal Heresy just very slightly cheaper'.

So small starter set that contains only small part of average game is average 40k army? Okay sounds like they will be bigger battles than 40k then.

well as noted apart from the warhounds many 40k armies are larger, especially if thats both sides

if its typical GW an actual game with "only" the starter box will feel very bland and it will be written for a lot more - to be honest I'd prefer the box with that at a reasonable price over twice that at twice the likely price

as long as you can get more, and as long as you can use the marines and infantry alongside each other as a single force

And even with warhounds this isn't even close to typical army size in epic.

And what 40k army has 100 marines and 100 ig? The list i made to spam infantry has around 75. So above box has more plus ig and 2 titans and still isn't even close to average game size.

 Gert wrote:

leopard wrote:
as long as you can get more, and as long as you can use the marines and infantry alongside each other as a single force

It was said on the stream that the entire box can be used as one army.

thats good at least, which means you likely have the ability to get a box to try it, and then if others get a box you both have a semi decent sized force

expecting a few Titan heavy games at first, use what you have etc.

hopefully its flexible, but on the plus side, not too long to find out

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Epic Armageddon was probably the best refinement.

It was also the only game in GW's history with public development and playtesting, right? Funny that.

 xttz wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
I haven´t seen any gaming aids for the game so far such as dice, measuring tape (cm or inches?) templates and specific markers. So what about them?

The video in the article shows the back of the box, and includes a photo of the box contents. The classic 3 templates are shown along with whippy stick rulers and some white dice. There's also a sheet of card tokens that are hard to make any details on.

By checking the back of the box, everything cries out as based in 2nd edition (the worst for big Epic battles):

- Flamer template
- No blast markers
- Lots of tokens
- Also the Close Assault Factor (CAF) joke

What a dissaster. But seeing that the size of the battle is going to shrink (bigger and more expensive minis)... it makes kind of sense...

Sunday preview says that we are going to see an article on the core concepts of W:HH:IL

"taking a much closer look at Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis, including a look at the core concepts, and answers to your burning questions"

the flamer template could be an artefact of wanting the 3" & 5" round ones, or even just the 3" one and its easier for GW to use the sprue they have

that said its likely going to be used for Titan flamers and similar big stuff

wonder if we will be back to "issue orders in secret"?

 Tastyfish wrote:
W:HH:IL

The acronym is actually horrible!

I think I'm just going to adopt Epic 5th Ed, or Epic:Legions(E:L) as the name going forwards! I don't have enough time to paint all my minis, let alone try and get along with the new naming scheme!

The bigger problem is....how much this gak will cost lol

Should be $40? Or $50? That way one could buy more boxes...but if they say $100....$150....then one will spend as if it was 40k

tneva82 wrote:

And even with warhounds this isn't even close to typical army size in epic.

And what 40k army has 100 marines and 100 ig? The list i made to spam infantry has around 75. So above box has more plus ig and 2 titans and still isn't even close to average game size.

While we have little to base speculation on for Epic right now, what we do have are two other established HH boxed games where models can all be grouped into one side:

Age of Darkness contains around 1500-2000pts of units for what's typically (I believe) a 3000pt HH game. So 50-66%

The Adeptus Titanicus starter contains approx. 1200-1300pts for one side, around 60% of a typical game.

It's probably fair to assume for now that this box is in the same ballpark. You can double up on it to get a full size army on day one, add new Epic-specific units like Land Raiders or Baneblades as they appear, and/or just round out a more flexible list using the titans, knights, and aircraft already available.

Epic has usually scaled fairly well, and certainly I always enjoyed putting its name into reality with quite grand sized battles.

In terms of complexity? For resource management, there’s AT. For care of positioning, there’s AI. Epic will, hopefully, stick to its roots and not be a particularly complex game for shooting and hitting each other in.

2nd Ed’s complexity and nuance came from Orders and how the different forces had exceptions, and the Alternating Activation method. Plus the Goal was “first to X VPs”, with X being determined by the points size of the game. Objectives gave 5 a piece, and you could typically bag a good chunk of the target just from taking Objectives. Certainly it then meant you could annihilate some smaller enemy units to get you over the top. Plus tanks had lesser saves for rear and possibly side shots - I’d need to refresh my memory to be sure though.

E40k and Armageddon were about using your attacks strategically to suppress enemy units, and how you could mitigate the same happening to you. I don’t recall how you scored VPs or otherwise won the game.

But either way, with the actual Horrible Deplorable Violkns being straight forward, you really had to be playing huuuuuge games before the respective systems started freaking under their own weight.

 judgedoug wrote:
The inconsistency was often within the same frame. The 1997 Space Marine frame had Scouts and characters towering over the mk7 tacticals. The original metal daemon infantry (not even greater daemons, but the horrors and bloodletters) were so large (like, larger than dreadnoughts) that they were based one per unit base (these were eventually corrected with the 1998 plastic Chaos frame - but then the Chaos Marines on that frame were larger than Space Marine Terminators lol). This always bugged me because they produced metal infantry during the Titanicus / Epic 1st era that were sized well but somehow completely went insane with Epic 2nd edition metal releases

If you played Epic during the nineties like myself (started with 2nd ed) you just had to shrug because nothing matched anything else

Case in point: regular space marine and scout from the same frame:

I'm going to be calling the game Epic Imperialis myself until a general consensus for a more compact name arrives

The guesstimate of the box contents amounting to ~60% of forces for a typical game sounds about right.. But I'm also thinking this box will go for preorder alongside other SKUs, so people can splurge and impulse buy their way to a larger army off the bat (buying several boxes to do it doesn't sound customer friendly for a new game, all those surplus books etc would be redundant)

I was at a LGS today buying primer, and almost impusle bought a Warlor Titan and a Reaver in anticipation of this game LOL! Terrain set was 55€ for a bunch of stuff, seemed ok considering how many hundos I've had to spend on my 28mil terrain collection

It may be because limited contact due to pre-internet, but I don’t recall anyone being terribly fussed at the time that the scale was obviously a bit wonky.

Modern day of course we do expect and will hopefully receive better

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It may be because limited contact due to pre-internet, but I don’t recall anyone being terribly fussed at the time that the scale was obviously a bit wonky.

Modern day of course we do expect and will hopefully receive better

The minis were markers and we were generals overseeing a bigass battle. That was good enough. And still is.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It may be because limited contact due to pre-internet, but I don’t recall anyone being terribly fussed at the time that the scale was obviously a bit wonky.

Modern day of course we do expect and will hopefully receive better

Basically correct (though the mk6 tactical were so tiny that my group at the time referred to them as baby marines) but what is interesting is that despite the just absolutely horrible scaling in releases, especially during Epic 2nd edition, the rose-tinted glasses brigades are out in full force all over facebook claiming that the new game is an abomination because Ian Wood's scale picture shows marines being 8mm tall. These same chuckleheads of course have been buying 8mm tall forumware marines since the mid 2000's...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It may be because limited contact due to pre-internet, but I don’t recall anyone being terribly fussed at the time that the scale was obviously a bit wonky.

Modern day of course we do expect and will hopefully receive better

It will be a lot better but still kinda abstract - take a look at that optional Hvy stubber on one of the Solar Auxilia tanks for example (its way to big). Seems like they have taken some effort in ensuring the bits are still rugged enough not to break during the first game, this will skew the scale of some things a bit

 judgedoug wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It may be because limited contact due to pre-internet, but I don’t recall anyone being terribly fussed at the time that the scale was obviously a bit wonky.

Modern day of course we do expect and will hopefully receive better

Basically correct (though the mk6 tactical were so tiny that my group at the time referred to them as baby marines) but what is interesting is that despite the just absolutely horrible scaling in releases, especially during Epic 2nd edition, the rose-tinted glasses brigades are out in full force all over facebook claiming that the new game is an abomination because Ian Wood's scale picture shows marines being 8mm tall. These same chuckleheads of course have been buying 8mm tall forumware marines since the mid 2000's...

We had to ban some people and warn others to stop being bad eggs in the wider 6mm wargaming group. This was a year ago when it was only AT models, or people using vanguard stuff. I fully expect it to blow up the first time anyone shares any of the new models, and the woodworms crawl out their planks and try to get us to ban GW games as its not really '6mm scale'. I can't wait to explain again that '6mm' is a size, not a scale and carry on sharing Epic models in the general group

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

E40k and Armageddon were about using your attacks strategically to suppress enemy units, and how you could mitigate the same happening to you. I don’t recall how you scored VPs or otherwise won the game.

E40k's system is quite frankly the best system I have ever played. IF you played a scenario that used Army Morale (as there was a near infinite number of scenarios, including asymmetric battles with true strategic fog of war, and some scenarios did not use Morale), then you began with Morale based on the size of your army. Taking or holding or completing different types of Objectives increased your Morale, or decreased your enemy's Morale. Detachments breaking and being destroyed reduced your morale. Blast markers that remain on your detachments reduce your Morale. If you reach zero Morale your army automatically disengages. This extraordinarily flexible system allows for a tremendous variety in game outcomes and it is not rare to have an asymmetric battle with an army being wiped out while still winning the scenario due to having held or completed the objectives dictated by the scenario, or by the Fog of War mission.

The Fog of War mission still remains my favorite way of playing any game ever. Each player has their xxxx points army, let's say 2000 points, already built and organized into their detachments. The infantry or vehicle detachment that is the lowest points overall in your army is the Vanguard. Each player receives a secret mission (randomly chosen from a total of thirteen) as well as what your commander tells you you can use to accomplish this mission. Each player also deployed a set number of objectives which may or may not actually matter. So one player may get:

Vanguard +25% You are ordered to move out and grab a new strongpoint, and then dig in and stop any possible enemy assault. Casualties are of no consequence! If you hold one Take & Hold objective and your Cleanse objective is clear of the enemy at the end of the 4th or any subsequent turn, then you have achieved your mission.
(so this player would get their Vanguard detachment plus 500 points of other detachments)

while another player may get:

Entire army The enemy forces on your front must be crushed. You must either wipe out one enemy detachment or reduce any two to below half strength. In addition, your own losses (in number of units and/or Damage Capacity lost) must not exceed those of the enemy. If you have achieved these objectives at the end of any turn then you have achieved your mission.
(so this player would get their entire army at their disposal)

Nobody knows what the other player's objects nor their final committed army size is as only Vanguards are deployed and all remaining forces will enter as reserves at your own discretion. Based on your opponent's actions you have to try to ascertain what their mission is to prevent them from completing it all the while attempting to complete your own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Its immediate predecessor took all the flavour out the game

I have never understood this argument. Epic 2nd was wild, every unit had it's own special rules and everything from lascannons to bolters and whatnot had their own statline and it took FOREVER to play. And it was still my favorite GW game growing up. But the player scale was all wrong. You are ostensibly the commander of a thousand figures on the table, so why do you as a general care about autocannons versus lascannons versus heavy bolters?
Epic 40k correctly repositions the player as the army commander so that you don't give a crap about autocannons and heavy bolters, you just care if units are good at assaults, firefights, fire support, antitank. It frees you up to make tactical decisions based on how you've designed your detachments and every unit works as advertised.
As someone with multiple 2nd edition armies and a ton of playtime I can absolutely tell you that Epic 40k's armies play _completely differently_ to each other while Epic 2nd was primarily a difference in weapon statlines, and that "flavor" argument went right out the window. What happened was it became less granular (and sped up gameplay tremendously) and the rules focused on how units and detachments performed (and sped up your decision making tremendously). Epic 40k _added_ the flavor and the playstyles of each army actually feels right.

Don't get me wrong though if having a 2nd ed company card firing four different weapons profiles that took 10 minutes to resolve is your thing, then by all means play it and enjoy it

In any discussion about Epic, the probability that it will turn into an argument aboit scale reaches 1 the longer it goes on

SU-152 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
I haven´t seen any gaming aids for the game so far such as dice, measuring tape (cm or inches?) templates and specific markers. So what about them?

The video in the article shows the back of the box, and includes a photo of the box contents. The classic 3 templates are shown along with whippy stick rulers and some white dice. There's also a sheet of card tokens that are hard to make any details on.

By checking the back of the box, everything cries out as based in 2nd edition (the worst for big Epic battles):

- Flamer template
- No blast markers
- Lots of tokens
- Also the Close Assault Factor (CAF) joke
...

Yes, although that volume of units would last one or two turns in Epic SM with them attacking each other, I don't think it is enough for that rule system.

1st in theory had a scale, thats while the Hellbore and Capitol Imperialis were huge, with 2nd they gave up which is why the squat land train wasn't huge and why the Leviathan, meant to be larger than the Imperialis, was smaller

they sort of went with "its a token saying that is roughly there, don't think about it too much".

in effect the game board became a virtual representation of a battlefield as presented to a commander more than an actual battlefield

pay your money, make your choice, it works either way really, though for me a set scale looks better as then you have a basic IG trooper next to "OMG thats huge"

 RexHavoc wrote:

We had to ban some people and warn others to stop being bad eggs in the wider 6mm wargaming group. This was a year ago when it was only AT models, or people using vanguard stuff. I fully expect it to blow up the first time anyone shares any of the new models, and the woodworms crawl out their planks and try to get us to ban GW games as its not really '6mm scale'. I can't wait to explain again that '6mm' is a size, not a scale and carry on sharing Epic models in the general group

Time to post the picture Aeronautica Grot Bommer pilot next to the 1997 plastic Epic gretchin that are mysteriously the same size LOL

 Pacific wrote:
In any discussion about Epic, the probability that it will turn into an argument aboit scale reaches 1 the longer it goes on
.

As soon as someone manages to work out how to harness Epic scale threads into generating power, we'll see unlimited clean energy!

 judgedoug wrote:

 RexHavoc wrote:

We had to ban some people and warn others to stop being bad eggs in the wider 6mm wargaming group. This was a year ago when it was only AT models, or people using vanguard stuff. I fully expect it to blow up the first time anyone shares any of the new models, and the woodworms crawl out their planks and try to get us to ban GW games as its not really '6mm scale'. I can't wait to explain again that '6mm' is a size, not a scale and carry on sharing Epic models in the general group

Time to post the picture Aeronautica Grot Bommer pilot next to the 1997 plastic Epic gretchin that are mysteriously the same size LOL

Ha yes! Or the fact that the doors and balcony on the back of the warlord titan is exactly the right shape and size for a 6mm human!

 judgedoug wrote:

I have never understood this argument. Epic 2nd was wild, every unit had it's own special rules and everything from lascannons to bolters and whatnot had their own statline and it took FOREVER to play. And it was still my favorite GW game growing up. But the player scale was all wrong. You are ostensibly the commander of a thousand figures on the table, so why do you as a general care about autocannons versus lascannons versus heavy bolters?
Epic 40k correctly repositions the player as the army commander so that you don't give a crap about autocannons and heavy bolters, you just care if units are good at assaults, firefights, fire support, antitank. It frees you up to make tactical decisions based on how you've designed your detachments and every unit works as advertised.
As someone with multiple 2nd edition armies and a ton of playtime I can absolutely tell you that Epic 40k's armies play _completely differently_ to each other while Epic 2nd was primarily a difference in weapon statlines, and that "flavor" argument went right out the window. What happened was it became less granular (and sped up gameplay tremendously) and the rules focused on how units and detachments performed (and sped up your decision making tremendously). Epic 40k _added_ the flavor and the playstyles of each army actually feels right.

Don't get me wrong though if having a 2nd ed company card firing four different weapons profiles that took 10 minutes to resolve is your thing, then by all means play it and enjoy it

It makes perfect sense once you grok that GW's version of 'flavour' basically just means having details that are one 'level' of resolution deeper than would be healthy/usual at that type of game. That's how you get platoon-level wargames where you keep track of individual grenades and individual troopers jammed guns, company-level wargames where you care about different kinds of rapid-fire battle rifles on your basic squads, and in the case of epic, ostensibly a battalion-level wargame at least, the situation that you described above. Reducing that to a firepower table and a handful of special rules at most indeed felt like sucking out the flavour, because in the GW-brand definition it was.

 Kiiroitori wrote:
The bigger problem is....how much this gak will cost lol

Should be $40? Or $50? That way one could buy more boxes...but if they say $100....$150....then one will spend as if it was 40k

You only have to look at Aeronautica to take a guess at how this is going to priced. Using an example, in Aeronautica, 6x Xiphons in a box (3 per sprue, 2 sprues) is $50, and 2x Storm Eagles (1 per sprue, 2 sprues) in a box is $50.

Looking at the contents of the Legion Imperialis game, I'm predicting that:

* Each of the Marine infantry detachments is on its own sprue, with 2x Dreadnaughts on the sprue. You're getting two sprues worth (4x Dreadnaughts). I predict they'll sell two sprues seperately as a box for $50.
* The same for the Solar Auxilia infantry, with two sprues/detachments to a box, so another $50 there.
* The Predators will be 3 to a sprue like the Xiphons, with 2 sprues to a $50 box (6 tanks). So that's $25.
* The Sicarans looks middle sized, so maybe 4 to a box, 2 per sprue. So another $25.
* Similar logic with the Auxilia tanks, with two half boxes, making up $50.
* Finally the Warhounds - that's easy, a box of two costs $75.

So that's $275 of miniatures, then you have the rules, dice etc on top. A slight discount and I reckon it's a $200-250 box.

thing is though, I never did get why people said the earlier editions took so long, take 1st which probably had the most granular effects

this tactical marine stand shoots at that one

1. measure range
2. check range for a range modifier
3. check target for a target modifier
4. check for an orders modifier (e.g. first fire was +1, charge was -1)
5. roll to hit
6. if hit, check save modifier
7. roll to save

and in practice you knew the modifiers so it tended to be "I fire at that detachment with this detachment, I have 6 dice, 4+ to hit, down to a 3+ for short range" *rolls dice* "3 hits, 3 saves, no modifier"

but then 1st had remarkably few "special rules", it was just weapon profiles and the unit profiles, then have at it

of course you did have assault marines who went into battle chanting "equipped with jump packs" which neither they nor they enemy understood but its just what you did

The game's really going to use the old templates? They take on a whole new meaning at a game of this scale. I take it they're for use with Titans?

Also: two HQs, two squads of Terminators, 4 Squads of Marines, a Heavy Weapon Squad, a Special Weapon Squad, an Assault Squad, 3 Predators, 2 Sicarians and 4 Dreads.

Seems... not epic. To me. Feels more like a a big game of 40k (or 30k).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Better than “count up your total firepower, then consult the chart, then consult the chart modifiers, then grab that many dice, then roll them”.

It was a horrendous system for Epic, spesh coming off the back of 2nd Ed.

It was FANTASTIC. Love that system.

I'm most excited about the new plastic weapon sprue for Warhounds with new weapons and rules for AT. A melta weapon has some great potential.

I'm not interested in the Legions game, though. I have my toes in enough game systems already and having some AT Titans doesn't feel like much of a head start. There are cheaper alternatives for Epic SM minis, but I already have a Epic Tyranid army and someone can wake me when those get rules.

 gorgon wrote:
I'm most excited about the new plastic weapon sprue for Warhounds with new weapons and rules for AT. A melta weapon has some great potential.

I'm not interested in the Legions game, though. I have my toes in enough game systems already and having some AT Titans doesn't feel like much of a head start. There are cheaper alternatives for Epic SM minis, but I already have a Epic Tyranid army and someone can wake me when those get rules.

I'm pretty confident that there will be reasonably well-balanced unofficial rules out for the Xenos before long. So even if you're not personally interested in the Imperial stuff, I'd say that there's a fair chance that you'll have some new potential opponents before long if the game is decent.

Looking at the picture of the box contents they appear to break down like this:

• 2x Marine infantry sprues (5 HQ, 10 Assault Marines, 10 Cataphractii Terminators, 40 Tactical Marines, and 2 Dreadnaughts)
• 1x Predator sprue (3 Predators)
• 1x Sicaran sprue (2 Sicarans)
• 2x Solar Auxilia sprue (5 HQ, 10 Flamer Auxiliaries 20 Lasrifle Auxiliaries, 10 Veletarii Shock Troops, and 4 Charonite Ogryns)
• 1x Aethon Heavy Sentinel sprue (4 Sentinels)
• 1x Leman Russ sprue (4 Leman Russ Tanks)
• 1x Malcador sprue = (2 Malcadors)
• 3x Warhound Titan sprues (2 Warhounds)

 Breotan wrote:
Looking at the picture of the box contents they appear to break down like this:

I came to the same conclusion a few posts above, though I’m not sure on the Sentinels having their own sprue. I think it’s more likely there’s two on each Solar Auxilia sprue.

MrHobbles wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Looking at the picture of the box contents they appear to break down like this:

I came to the same conclusion a few posts above, though I’m not sure on the Sentinels having their own sprue. I think it’s more likely there’s two on each Solar Auxilia sprue.

I thought this at first, but I think the Ogrins are actually taking that spot. The Sentinals are also appear to be a lot more complex than the Dreadnaughts, requiring more pieces on a sprue.

There are 10 terminators, 10 assault marines, 10 plasma support marines and 10 missile launcher devastators, so 5 of each on a sprue.

2 contemptors or sentinels per sprue make sense. Ogryn are smaller, and make up for the fact that the solar troops are slightly smaller than the astertes, so take up less total sprue space.

For other units, I would guess 4 rhinos per sprue, a support tank sprue with 2 vindicators and a scorpios, Land Raiders 2 per sprue, and Spartans as one per sprue but options for cerberus or typhon.

 Breotan wrote:

I thought this at first, but I think the Ogrins are actually taking that spot. The Sentinals are also appear to be a lot more complex than the Dreadnaughts, requiring more pieces on a sprue.

On the other hand, the Ogryns, despite having 3 less per base, don't seem all that bigger than standard infantry. They may be one or two pieces more but I think space on sprue is negligible.

 judgedoug wrote:
As someone with multiple 2nd edition armies and a ton of playtime I can absolutely tell you that Epic 40k's armies play _completely differently_ to each other while Epic 2nd was primarily a difference in weapon statlines, and that "flavor" argument went right out the window. What happened was it became less granular (and sped up gameplay tremendously) and the rules focused on how units and detachments performed (and sped up your decision making tremendously). Epic 40k _added_ the flavor and the playstyles of each army actually feels right

So very much this... in my own experience, Epic 40k armies are the ones that play more like the fluff say they should. It's really cool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MrHobbles wrote:
So that's $275 of miniatures, then you have the rules, dice etc on top. A slight discount and I reckon it's a $200-250 box.

That price, to me, would be on the "fething bonkers" level for what you get there. No way no how I'd buy in at that price.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The game's really going to use the old templates? They take on a whole new meaning at a game of this scale. I take it they're for use with Titans?

Also: two HQs, two squads of Terminators, 4 Squads of Marines, a Heavy Weapon Squad, a Special Weapon Squad, an Assault Squad, 3 Predators, 2 Sicarians and 4 Dreads.

Seems... not epic. To me. Feels more like a a big game of 40k (or 30k).

Jut so, yeah. The contents of the box simply don't feel Epic.

Epic 40k is my favourite because it's fun to build an army, but when it actually comes to playing the game each model feels as inconsequential as it should for a game of that scale.

It just wasn't the game the community wanted unfortunately.

Anyway, I can't decide whether I'm excited or not.

1. Mould lines, argh, I can't imagine how much of a nightmare they'll be. Back as an 11 year old building my Epic force back in the 90's I didn't care enough to bother cleaning off the mould lines. 30-something me will not be able to endure the mould lines, but I can already feel my hands cramping.

The model detail doesn't seem any better than the 3D prints I have sitting here on my desk, and the 3D prints require so little clean up, just clip off the base support and maybe 1 or 2 supports on each squad and it's ready to paint.

2. 2x Warhounds in the box? Really? They couldn't have given us more new Epic stuff instead?

3. It's probably going to be insanely priced.

4. I just don't trust modern GW not to screw up the rules.

5. If it sucks, I hope it doesn't splinter the already small community.

6. Did we really want to see Solar Auxilia? Of all the options of a starter set, they never even crossed my mind. Not saying they should never have done them, but probably would have preferred them flesh out the Marines more. I don't really know the fluff behind Solar Auxilia, did a lot of them turn to Chaos such that they can be used in either loyalist or traitor armies?

7. For all my half-completed armies, do I start basing them with the new (25mm?) round bases or stick to the 40mm strips... I'll probably put my armies on halt until it comes out and I decide whether to go with the new rules or stick with the old rules.

I dunno, I'll probably buy it unless it's insanely expensive because I'm a sucker for the tiny dudes, but I'm reserving my excitement for now.

My issue is, GW already has logistics issues plaguing support for now what are supposed to be 3 mainline games. 40k, AoS and HH. This is another one and then we have ToW aswell.

Is further diversifying the right call here?

Not Online!!! wrote:
My issue is, GW already has logistics issues plaguing support for now what are supposed to be 3 mainline games. 40k, AoS and HH. This is another one and then we have ToW aswell.

Is further diversifying the right call here?

They're different team with separated production line. Games that would likely be affected by LI hogging the production slots would be Necromunda, Blood Bowl, and MESBG.

Chopstick wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
My issue is, GW already has logistics issues plaguing support for now what are supposed to be 3 mainline games. 40k, AoS and HH. This is another one and then we have ToW aswell.

Is further diversifying the right call here?

They're different team with separated production line. Games that would likely be affected by LI hogging the production slots would be Necromunda, Blood Bowl, and MESBG.

Are you sure about that?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


6. Did we really want to see Solar Auxilia? Of all the options of a starter set, they never even crossed my mind. Not saying they should never have done them, but probably would have preferred them flesh out the Marines more. I don't really know the fluff behind Solar Auxilia, did a lot of them turn to Chaos such that they can be used in either loyalist or traitor armies?

Yeah there were traitor Solar Auxilia (and personally I’m very glad to see them here).

 Albertorius wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The game's really going to use the old templates? They take on a whole new meaning at a game of this scale. I take it they're for use with Titans?

Also: two HQs, two squads of Terminators, 4 Squads of Marines, a Heavy Weapon Squad, a Special Weapon Squad, an Assault Squad, 3 Predators, 2 Sicarians and 4 Dreads.

Seems... not epic. To me. Feels more like a a big game of 40k (or 30k).

Jut so, yeah. The contents of the box simply don't feel Epic.

This below is an 3000 points Imperial Guard army for Epic Armaggedon :



Doesn't feel Epic too, does it ?

I played a lot of EA games even after the support ended. Regular ones usually played at 3000 points (which already is a lot). There weren't that many more miniatures on the table in most of them. The "Epic feel" you have in mind were usually much huger collections put together, but rarely in a single game (like 6000 or 10000 points).

In this new edition, the box include 2 Titans (they costed a lot in EA as well) and some Malcadors...who could be considered as Super Heavy Tanks as well (they're the ancestors of the Baneblade, after all).

More over, it's a starter box. You know starter boxes aren't the endgame for list buildings, don't you ?

Wait for the rules and the costs before saying it "doesn't feel Epic". That's how previous iterations of the game worked too.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Epic 40k is my favourite because it's fun to build an army, but when it actually comes to playing the game each model feels as inconsequential as it should for a game of that scale.

It just wasn't the game the community wanted unfortunately.

Anyway, I can't decide whether I'm excited or not.

1. Mould lines, argh, I can't imagine how much of a nightmare they'll be. Back as an 11 year old building my Epic force back in the 90's I didn't care enough to bother cleaning off the mould lines. 30-something me will not be able to endure the mould lines, but I can already feel my hands cramping.

The model detail doesn't seem any better than the 3D prints I have sitting here on my desk, and the 3D prints require so little clean up, just clip off the base support and maybe 1 or 2 supports on each squad and it's ready to paint.

2. 2x Warhounds in the box? Really? They couldn't have given us more new Epic stuff instead?

3. It's probably going to be insanely priced.

4. I just don't trust modern GW not to screw up the rules.

5. If it sucks, I hope it doesn't splinter the already small community.

6. Did we really want to see Solar Auxilia? Of all the options of a starter set, they never even crossed my mind. Not saying they should never have done them, but probably would have preferred them flesh out the Marines more. I don't really know the fluff behind Solar Auxilia, did a lot of them turn to Chaos such that they can be used in either loyalist or traitor armies?

7. For all my half-completed armies, do I start basing them with the new (25mm?) round bases or stick to the 40mm strips... I'll probably put my armies on halt until it comes out and I decide whether to go with the new rules or stick with the old rules.

I dunno, I'll probably buy it unless it's insanely expensive because I'm a sucker for the tiny dudes, but I'm reserving my excitement for now.

1. I've been building some of the more modern 40k/AoS daemon kits this week (Pink horrors & Blue horrors in fact) and the mould lines are bizarrely almost none existent! I would be hoping these kits would be on par with the blue horrors, as they are tiny in comparison to other modern kits!

2- I agree the warhounds are a bad choice. I suspect they will be the model that everyone that buys into this will end up with too many off as they will be package in every big set or owned already by existing AT players. I will probably end up finding a way to give them rush paint jobs to get through how I would end up with, or end up with a lot of crashed warhound terrain!

3. This set alone will be the same cost as a decent sized full army from somewhere like vanguard!

4. I agree with you- it would be lovely if they put out some good rules for this. But I've seen the mess of necromunda, kill team, warcry...and I just know they won't be able to resist piecemealing the rules out over a load of books.

5. I don't think this will affect the community as much as GW might think it would. I don't think the target audience is really anyone that has played Epic before, its really aiming for those AT players that want a 'pure GW' hobby experience. If they had wanted to reach the wider community, I'd have thought they would have gone for a more diverse release than HH only and not changed bases/size of minis yet again.

6. I was surprised by how much I like these, but I do think including Solar Auxilia is the one thing that shows they have no interest in moving this past 30k even if it is popular. I'm very behind in my reading of the HH, but I never really noticed their inclusion to the setting prior to the forgeworld minis release.

7. I'm sticking with my 40mm! If the new minis don't fit on the 3rd ed bases, then I might move up to using warmaster bases for the new stuff!

Not Online!!! wrote:
My issue is, GW already has logistics issues plaguing support for now what are supposed to be 3 mainline games. 40k, AoS and HH. This is another one and then we have ToW aswell.

Is further diversifying the right call here?

Yeah....I don't see them being able to keep this in stock and fully supported in a way that makes it the success GW will want it to be to keep it going more than a year or two!

They have enough trouble keeping the games they have already in stock right now. I suspect the old world will take up a huge amount of resources as well!

I'm honestly expecting to have to treat this as a limited release, order from multiple sources and cancel orders last minute if they manage to keep stock levels available! I don't think this will be a game where you can balance buying an army bit by bit, I might have to hoard anything I think I will want early on!

Malcadors are heavy tanks nowadays, sizecreep has conditioned the average 40k player well

In terms of Traitors? Remember during the Crusade, each Compliance Fleet was a hodge podge of different wings of the Imperial Armies.

Not every fleet necessarily had the same mix, true. But when a Legion turned coat, so did its supporting forces, with any remaining loyalists either fleeing or being purged.

As for cost? Age of Darkness contains £345.00 RRP of goodies, including the rulebooks, for a £185 RRP.

So eyeballing around a 45% discount before we go looking for an online discount from our favoured crack dealer.

We can also see that Heresy stuff seems to have a more favourable (no that is not a synonym for cheap) price than 40K. Not massively so, but lower is lower (hey look, I’m deliberating not using the word cheap or cheaper).

Not Online!!! wrote:
Malcadors are heavy tanks nowadays, sizecreep has conditioned the average 40k player well

Who says they will have the same role in this new game than in 40 ? You, so far, apparently.

Albertorius - yes if it's that price I think it will be dead in the water. Some of us will still get it as we're into Epic enough already, but for the average casual fan that will be too much.
I am really hoping (considering it's not a bumper box of contents and stuff like the WH are already produced) for £100-120 for the starter set, and that to be closer to £80 with FLGS discount.
If it goes for that much, it has a chance to get kick-started.

Not Online!!! wrote:
My issue is, GW already has logistics issues plaguing support for now what are supposed to be 3 mainline games. 40k, AoS and HH. This is another one and then we have ToW aswell.

Is further diversifying the right call here?

I guess it depends what perspective you take. If GW have capacity to produce what seems like 19 different types of Warcry starter sets of slightly different humans a year (borrowing a joke from Painty Men, using the classic fantasy trope of guys with cages on their heads) then they should probably manage this too

Sarouan wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Malcadors are heavy tanks nowadays, sizecreep has conditioned the average 40k player well

Who says they will have the same role in this new game than in 40 ? You, so far, apparently.

Well, it certainly is no leman russ mbt. and neither is it a chimera

Depends how big the sprues end up (hazy memory is of one approx half current standard sprue size) and how many to a unit box (was it two or four typically in the olden days?).

Because one of the joys of Epic is low production cost and time because you can squeeze so much on to a sprue.

Prediction because I’m looking at one right now with my eyes? Infantry will come on a Leviathan Termagant Sized Sprue.

Sarouan wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The game's really going to use the old templates? They take on a whole new meaning at a game of this scale. I take it they're for use with Titans?

Also: two HQs, two squads of Terminators, 4 Squads of Marines, a Heavy Weapon Squad, a Special Weapon Squad, an Assault Squad, 3 Predators, 2 Sicarians and 4 Dreads.

Seems... not epic. To me. Feels more like a a big game of 40k (or 30k).

Jut so, yeah. The contents of the box simply don't feel Epic.

This below is an 3000 points Imperial Guard army for Epic Armaggedon :



Doesn't feel Epic too, does it ?

I played a lot of EA games even after the support ended. Regular ones usually played at 3000 points (which already is a lot). There weren't that many more miniatures on the table in most of them. The "Epic feel" you have in mind were usually much huger collections put together, but rarely in a single game (like 6000 or 10000 points).

In this new edition, the box include 2 Titans (they costed a lot in EA as well) and some Malcadors...who could be considered as Super Heavy Tanks as well (they're the ancestors of the Baneblade, after all).

More over, it's a starter box. You know starter boxes aren't the endgame for list buildings, don't you ?

Wait for the rules and the costs before saying it "doesn't feel Epic". That's how previous iterations of the game worked too.

I'd also point out 40k is a lot bigger now as well, back then 1500 was the designed game size and the guard army shown wold be at least twice the size of a 40k army by headcount, never mind the fact it includes a lot of bigger units than guard had access to at 40k scale generally back then.

As a new player entering a new game I'd prefer a smaller table with fewer units on to begin with so I'm not financially crippled by none of my existing GW products being easily transferrable to a new scale. It can still be "epic" without "spam a million bases" I agree.

 Pacific wrote:
Albertorius - yes if it's that price I think it will be dead in the water. Some of us will still get it as we're into Epic enough already, but for the average casual fan that will be too much.
I am really hoping (considering it's not a bumper box of contents and stuff like the WH are already produced) for £100-120 for the starter set, and that to be closer to £80 with FLGS discount.
If it goes for that much, it has a chance to get kick-started.

You guys are naive. If Adeptus Titanicus managed to sell madly with those prices for single titans and boxes of Knights, it's simply because people compared it with FW prices for actual titans in 40k.

What do you think this game will compare to ? That's right, actual 40k (or more accurately, Horus Heresy - yes, it's still 40k to me, I don't care if it's supposed to be "10000 years before").

So as long as customers will see it as lower enough in comparison to a collection of equivalent in 32mm, it can be enough. Still, it's GW, we know its prices and it won't be cheap anyway, that's for sure.

As for supporting this game, it has the same advantage of HH : it's basically the same miniatures for all factions involved (traitors and loyalists). So you can release a box of miniature that can be used for either side. This is not The Old World situation where you have to release totally different boxes for each faction. This is something a side game can use for a long time by itself.

And of course, since it can use what's already existing for aircraft (AI) and titans (AT)...that's already easier.

Sarouan wrote:

This below is an 3000 points Imperial Guard army for Epic Armaggedon :



Doesn't feel Epic too, does it ?

Honestly? No, not really. This, again, was a 3000 points Space Marines army for Epic 40.000. IG would be between twice and thrice this:

I played a lot of EA games even after the support ended. Regular ones usually played at 3000 points (which already is a lot). There weren't that many more miniatures on the table in most of them. The "Epic feel" you have in mind were usually much huger collections put together, but rarely in a single game (like 6000 or 10000 points).

No, as I said, Epic 40k was literally designed to play with really Epic armies in the regular allotment of time. From the get go. 3k was a regular game, and you played with a gak ton of stuff.

In this new edition, the box include 2 Titans (they costed a lot in EA as well) and some Malcadors...who could be considered as Super Heavy Tanks as well (they're the ancestors of the Baneblade, after all).

More over, it's a starter box. You know starter boxes aren't the endgame for list buildings, don't you ?

No, this is a "launch box" as they have decided to call them right now. Like the AT one, back then, or the HH one, or Leviathan. You know launch boxes, don't you? On those, particularly the ones where you can field everything in the same army, you are expected to have enough gak to play a regular sized game.

Hence the pic should be just about a regular sized army.

Wait for the rules and the costs before saying it "doesn't feel Epic". That's how previous iterations of the game worked too.

As said above, no it doesn't. That is just E:A, which is a bit like mini Epic already.

 Kiiroitori wrote:
The bigger problem is....how much this gak will cost lol

Should be $40? Or $50? That way one could buy more boxes...but if they say $100....$150....then one will spend as if it was 40k

Wtf is with people and their unrealistic ideas? 2 titans, marines, humans and rulebook for less than 2 titans alone?

Wtf?

On army sizes. From 2nd Ed. And a peak inside one of my Holy of Holies, Space Marine Battles. No your eyes probably aren’t worthy, but this is for education so it’s probably ok

Battle Report between Andy Chambers and Richard Halliwell (RIP). 4,000 point battle. Which seems about the average. Certainly the size I used to play. Until Titan Legions came along with its 2,250 point Imperator

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On army sizes. From 2nd Ed. And a peak inside one of my Holy of Holies, Space Marine Battles. No your eyes probably aren’t worthy, but this is for education so it’s probably ok

Battle Report between Andy Chambers and Richard Halliwell (RIP). 4,000 point battle. Which seems about the average. Certainly the size I used to play. Until Titan Legions came along with its 2,250 point Imperator

Funny, I seem to still see a gak ton more stuff there than in the new launch box

For reference: the games I've seen played for Epic: 40.000 usually were a thousand points for learning games, three to four thousand for regular games to be played in 3-4 hours.

 Pacific wrote:
I am really hoping (considering it's not a bumper box of contents and stuff like the WH are already produced) for £100-120 for the starter set, and that to be closer to £80 with FLGS discount.
If it goes for that much, it has a chance to get kick-started.

I reckon this is about right and it'll be around £105 before discount. I'd compare to the current Titanicus starter as well as the Necromunda Hive War box

 Albertorius wrote:

No, this is a "launch box" as they have decided to call them right now. Like the AT one, back then, or the HH one, or Leviathan. You know launch boxes, don't you? On those, particularly the ones where you can field everything in the same army, you are expected to have enough gak to play a regular sized game.
.

Hahaha.

A) leviathan is launch box. Even if you added points together not average game.
B) are you sure this is launch box? Or not just starter. Or you expect gw do another starter set for this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On army sizes. From 2nd Ed. And a peak inside one of my Holy of Holies, Space Marine Battles. No your eyes probably aren’t worthy, but this is for education so it’s probably ok

Battle Report between Andy Chambers and Richard Halliwell (RIP). 4,000 point battle. Which seems about the average. Certainly the size I used to play. Until Titan Legions came along with its 2,250 point Imperator

Funny, I seem to still see a gak ton more stuff there than in the new launch box

For reference: the games I've seen played for Epic: 40.000 usually were a thousand points for learning games, three to four thousand for regular games to be played in 3-4 hours.

Funny. This box is not going to have normal size. Maybe half if that.

MrHobbles wrote:
You only have to look at Aeronautica to take a guess at how this is going to priced. Using an example, in Aeronautica, 6x Xiphons in a box (3 per sprue, 2 sprues) is $50, and 2x Storm Eagles (1 per sprue, 2 sprues) in a box is $50.

Looking at the contents of the Legion Imperialis game, I'm predicting that:

* Each of the Marine infantry detachments is on its own sprue, with 2x Dreadnaughts on the sprue. You're getting two sprues worth (4x Dreadnaughts). I predict they'll sell two sprues seperately as a box for $50.
* The same for the Solar Auxilia infantry, with two sprues/detachments to a box, so another $50 there.
* The Predators will be 3 to a sprue like the Xiphons, with 2 sprues to a $50 box (6 tanks). So that's $25.
* The Sicarans looks middle sized, so maybe 4 to a box, 2 per sprue. So another $25.
* Similar logic with the Auxilia tanks, with two half boxes, making up $50.
* Finally the Warhounds - that's easy, a box of two costs $75.

So that's $275 of miniatures, then you have the rules, dice etc on top. A slight discount and I reckon it's a $200-250 box.

Again while some models will be similarly priced to Aeronautica I strongly think that the key units for Epic will be more affordable. A good benchmark is the fact that other specialist game core boxes with a similar amount of content are priced at £105 - £110 ($170 USD), and I don't see them going too far above that.

Rather than selling individual squads for £30-35 like in other games, last year's HH tactical squads are pushed more aggressively at 20 for £50. I believe we'll see a similar approach for Epic, with the core units bundled together and 'discounted'. For example rather than two infantry sprues for £30 they can sell them together with transports for ~£40.

I also believe GW will continue with the SKU consolidation they've done for other product ranges recently. Several kits have seen alternative sprues repackaged in the main box for a minor price bump. For example; I bet Reavers go from £37.50 to £40, but include the new style base, both weapon sprues, and thin card AT accessories so they're no longer stocked separately.

Feel free to quote this post and we'll see next month how my prediction pans out.

 RexHavoc wrote:

Yeah....I don't see them being able to keep this in stock and fully supported in a way that makes it the success GW will want it to be to keep it going more than a year or two!

They have enough trouble keeping the games they have already in stock right now. I suspect the old world will take up a huge amount of resources as well!

I'm honestly expecting to have to treat this as a limited release, order from multiple sources and cancel orders last minute if they manage to keep stock levels available! I don't think this will be a game where you can balance buying an army bit by bit, I might have to hoard anything I think I will want early on!

Yeah even though Leviathan is done now, I still have concerns about GW keeping up with demand. However the best case scenario for future Epic support would be this game selling out on release. The last thing we want is another Dominion or Dreadfleet situation, where GW are literally begging people to take excess stock.

Regardless of the stock situtation I doubt the core set will be a limited release though. They normally use clear terms like "launch box" for limited items, and everyone made the same assumption for the Age of Darkness box too but that remained available.

 Albertorius wrote:

More over, it's a starter box. You know starter boxes aren't the endgame for list buildings, don't you ?

No, this is a "launch box" as they have decided to call them right now. Like the AT one, back then, or the HH one, or Leviathan. You know launch boxes, don't you? On those, particularly the ones where you can field everything in the same army, you are expected to have enough gak to play a regular sized game.

Incorrect on both counts I'm afraid.

Firstly they avoided the term 'launch box' during the stream and instead it's described as a "core set". That implies it will remain in print like Age of Darkness.

Also literally none of the launch boxes or core sets had enough models for a regular sized game, even if you do field them all one side. This was broken down a couple of pages ago, with both other Heresy core boxes giving you around 50-60% of a typical army list.

Which is why it's useless to talk about "feelings of Epic" without knowing the rules and the point cost of involved units.

The "Epic feeling" is not an out of context thing ; it's always linked to the game system it comes from.

Also it's always subjective.

Besides :

 Albertorius wrote:


Honestly? No, not really. This, again, was a 3000 points Space Marines army for Epic 40.000. IG would be between twice and thrice this:

The point is, all of the armies shown in these pictures were never built from a single box, be it core, starter or launch. It's a collection built with time (and lot of money too).

Comparing it with that new box that will be obviously NOT the endgame of your collection is futile.

 Albertorius wrote:

No, this is a "launch box" as they have decided to call them right now. Like the AT one, back then, or the HH one, or Leviathan. You know launch boxes, don't you? On those, particularly the ones where you can field everything in the same army, you are expected to have enough gak to play a regular sized game.

A launch box is meant to be that, a launch of the new product. Book, accessories, assortment of new models. Nowhere is it said or even implied that it is meant to be an entire army in a box. Even Age of Darkness box is only around 1200 points or so, when hh is most suited for 2.5 to 3k

tneva82 wrote:
B) are you sure this is launch box? Or not just starter. Or you expect gw do another starter set for this?

I can't really say. The warhammer community page calls it a "huge Core Set containing a massive collection of exquisite epic scale miniatures".

Which, OTOH, is more or less the same they said for the Age of Darkness box, which gets you about 1900 points of stuff for a single army, which... yeah, it's about regular size full army, I'd say. So maybe that is coloring my expectations, here.

Funny. This box is not going to have normal size. Maybe half if that.

Time will certainly tell. Still, the actual stuff you get in the box doesn't seem to me like all that much, so price point will be the deciding point.

Albertorius - (said in Australian accent) "You call that an Epic Army?"

(Now fully expecting the same done back to me!)

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

No, this is a "launch box" as they have decided to call them right now. Like the AT one, back then, or the HH one, or Leviathan. You know launch boxes, don't you? On those, particularly the ones where you can field everything in the same army, you are expected to have enough gak to play a regular sized game.

A launch box is meant to be that, a launch of the new product. Book, accessories, assortment of new models. Nowhere is it said or even implied that it is meant to be an entire army in a box. Even Age of Darkness box is only around 1200 points or so, when hh is most suited for 2.5 to 3k

Age of Darkness box seems to be basically a full army, though:

You can get to around 1900 points.

- 2 20-man tacticals with lots of kit come to about 500-550 points. If you do 4 10-man tacticals instead, it could be more because the most pricy stuff is on the sergeant, but it isn't tactically that good, so I wouldn't.

- 1 10-man Cataphractii unit comes to around 450 points, but you should get plasma blasters or reaper autocannons somewhere, the heavy flamers don't really cut it, imo.

- Spartan is 400 points minimum, because you always take that flare shield.

- Dreadnought is around 200 points.

- The two praetors can be made into one praetor and some sort of Centurion Consul, which will get you to around 300 points for both of them.

So in total, around 1900 points.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pacific wrote:
Albertorius - (said in Australian accent) "You call that an Epic Army?"

(Now fully expecting the same done back to me!)

Spoiler:

See I would fully expect to field that in an E:40k battle and play it over an afternoon


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarouan wrote:
The point is, all of the armies shown in these pictures were never built from a single box, be it core, starter or launch. It's a collection built with time (and lot of money too).

Comparing it with that new box that will be obviously NOT the endgame of your collection is futile.

And still, the last boxed set had two full armies . On the smaller size, but each one about 2-3 times as big as the ones in the new box ^^

 Albertorius wrote:

Which, OTOH, is more or less the same they said for the Age of Darkness box, which gets you about 1900 points of stuff for a single army, which... yeah, it's about regular size full army, I'd say. So maybe that is coloring my expectations, here.

HH games are typically played at 3000pts.

Age of Darkness also varies depending on how you deploy and equip units (e.g. 20 man units are cheaper than 2x10 man), so can vary from 1500-2000pts.

 xttz wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Which, OTOH, is more or less the same they said for the Age of Darkness box, which gets you about 1900 points of stuff for a single army, which... yeah, it's about regular size full army, I'd say. So maybe that is coloring my expectations, here.

HH games are typically played at 3000pts.

Age of Darkness also varies depending on how you deploy and equip units (e.g. 20 man units are cheaper than 2x10 man), so can vary from 1500-2000pts.

Are they? The games I've been seeing over here cap at two thousand.

Then again, regular 40k is frequently played at one thousand points in my region, partially to avoid a bit of the "parking lot 40k" visuals.

 Pacific wrote:
Albertorius - (said in Australian accent) "You call that an Epic Army?"

(Now fully expecting the same done back to me!)

Spoiler:

This looks like the game size I'd want from an Epic game

I think no matter what the cost of the starter set/launch box is, the real issue is getting people to buy into a whole new scale.

The cost of the starter set includes no terrain. Game size/rules is also going to dictate just how much terrain you will want. The AT terrain is not cheap.

I assuming we will see the bigger city set that had multiple sets for cheap get a reboxing, probably along with the roof set.

Thankfully there are cheaper plastic terrain options out there.

xttz wrote:


Yeah even though Leviathan is done now, I still have concerns about GW keeping up with demand. However the best case scenario for future Epic support would be this game selling out on release. The last thing we want is another Dominion or Dreadfleet situation, where GW are literally begging people to take excess stock.

haha actually, I just brought a copy of dreadfleet about two weeks ago

Perhaps if I hold off, I can buy into Legions in about 10 years on the cheap

One thing that I appreciate from the WHC article is this:

...all of your Adeptus Titanicus and Heresy-relevant Aeronautica Imperialis miniatures can be used in Legions Imperialis thanks to rules and unit profiles found in the massive Legions Imperialis Rulebook.

So it seems the rules will cover quite a bit more than the initial boxed set minis.

I just hope that this new game won't mean the end of Adeptus Titanicus. I was still hoping for some new Titan and Knight designs.

 Malika2 wrote:
I just hope that this new game won't mean the end of Adeptus Titanicus. I was still hoping for some new Titan and Knight designs.

I can't link it due to recent Twitter shenanigans, but the official Warhammer account replied to someone yesterday to confirm that the new Warhound weapons will get AT weapon cards.

That seems promising for any new AT content.

 Malika2 wrote:
I just hope that this new game won't mean the end of Adeptus Titanicus. I was still hoping for some new Titan and Knight designs.

Like others in this thread remarked, making new models cross-compliant for both systems requires minimal investment, and with Legions you now have a reason for some of the stuff on newer titans, like Anti-Air weaponry or Anti-Infantry stuff, to exist, so it's not a given that this system will have negative consequences for AT.

Yeah, Corvus Assault Pods for Warlords will now make sense


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Malika2 wrote:
I just hope that this new game won't mean the end of Adeptus Titanicus. I was still hoping for some new Titan and Knight designs.

Like others in this thread remarked, making new models cross-compliant for both systems requires minimal investment, and with Legions you now have a reason for some of the stuff on newer titans, like Anti-Air weaponry or Anti-Infantry stuff, to exist, so it's not a given that this system will have negative consequences for AT.

I think Titanicus will be relaunched with the Epic Scale badge and some repackaging.

Lets hope GW will then start to develop those.

Well, looks like a rebranding is definitely in the works - loads of Titanicus items have gone sold out:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Boxed-Games?N=3281529261+2699001548&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AGB_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_GB_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord%5Bproduct.startDate+%3C%3D+1688379480000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1688379480000%5D&view=all

Edit - Aeronautica as well:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Boxed-Games?N=3281529261+1588562439&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AGB_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_GB_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord%5Bproduct.startDate+%3C%3D+1688379600000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1688379600000%5D&view=all

 zedmeister wrote:
Well, looks like a rebranding is definitely in the works - loads of Titanicus items have gone sold out:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Boxed-Games?N=3281529261+2699001548&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AGB_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_GB_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord%5Bproduct.startDate+%3C%3D+1688379480000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1688379480000%5D&view=all

We also heard of SKU-number shenanigans a couple of weeks ago, seems to point in the same direction.

I just want my updated Imperator Titan

 Albertorius wrote:

And still, the last boxed set had two full armies . On the smaller size, but each one about 2-3 times as big as the ones in the new box ^^

This new game's box also has two full armies, actually : the SM part and the guard part. Both Warhound can easily be put one to each side as well.

Previous Epic 40k box had no Titan. just a carboard of a gargant for the orks to "balance the armies". That counts too, like it or not.

And the most important point : previous Epic 40k had indeed two armies, but of factions that can't be used together. So if you wanted to focus on only one of them, you had to sell the other / find someone else to exchange the miniatures you don't want to.

Here with the new game ? Both parts can be used in the same faction (traitors or loyalists). So you can still exchange the guard or SM part if you only want to play that part, but you can also keep it and still use it in your games.

That's actually more clever, IMHO. More options for the customer than before.

when Space Marine 1st came out it was more or less the end of Adeptus Titanicus, instead to play Titans you had SM & "Codex Titanicus" which also had the Ork & Eldar base rules IIRC

though the systems were similar they were not identical, and I wonder if similar will happen here with the AT rules merged in some way.

given the current AT while I don't think its as good as the earlier versions is actually a good game (though not as versatile in titan customisation) I would hope its broadly compatible so titans firing at titans is essentially as they are now, how they move is as they are now etc, just with ways for them to interact with the smaller stuff when not smacking each other about

Hoping for some good info today on how it plays.

Mostly because an impatient sod.

If it's really out in August we should be optimistic about getting some info. This might have to be a two-boxer situation for me

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hoping for some good info today on how it plays.

Mostly because an impatient sod.

^^^^ this, oh so much this

 zedmeister wrote:
Well, looks like a rebranding is definitely in the works - loads of Titanicus items have gone sold out:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Boxed-Games?N=3281529261+2699001548&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AGB_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_GB_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord%5Bproduct.startDate+%3C%3D+1688379480000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1688379480000%5D&view=all

Edit - Aeronautica as well:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Boxed-Games?N=3281529261+1588562439&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AGB_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_GB_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord%5Bproduct.startDate+%3C%3D+1688379600000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1688379600000%5D&view=all

Only TBolt was out, likely rebox to have epic base.

Titanicus stuff that sold out has been like that for a while, like 6 months.

A whole range rebox with epic base would be nice.

it would make a lot of sense for all the stuff in "8mm" to have common branding

Billicus wrote:
If it's really out in August we should be optimistic about getting some info. This might have to be a two-boxer situation for me

They’ve said to expect more info this and coming weeks.

leopard wrote:
it would make a lot of sense for all the stuff in "8mm" to have common branding

Yeah, they'll probably move to a generic Epic Scale branded box and then you just pick up what you need depending on the game you're playing

leopard wrote:
it would make a lot of sense for all the stuff in "8mm" to have common branding

They are calling it "Epic Scale" so people can stop arguing over 6mm vs 8mm vs whatever

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

leopard wrote:
it would make a lot of sense for all the stuff in "8mm" to have common branding

They are calling it "Epic Scale" so people can stop arguing over 6mm vs 8mm vs whatever

best way to do it, since its hardly a scale they will stick to anyway

Honestly if it's 300$ usd like age of darkness I don't think it will do well. At 200$ I'm in but i would like to see more agreesive pricing to start as this will basically be trying to start a new community from the ground up.

Old epic players might give it a try but they really need new blood from the start as old epic players likely already have all the models they will ever need.

And they have kinda hamstrung themselves appeal wise, they really should have had at least orks that way the zenos crowd would have been in on it also ( me included) if it had been a ork vs space marine box at thos size I think the appeal would have been far larger.

for me for the contents the ideal price point is that of the "Hive War" and current Adeptus Titanicus boxes, £105 uk

there isn't that much in the box really, they will likely aim higher with a HH big hard back book so likely closer to Age of Darkness but to be honest there isn't that much in the box to be worth it

It needs to be considerably less than the price of Age of Darkness for me to consider it.

I am weirdly excited about this release. I'm reading through the Horus Heresy novels so have a much better appreciation for internal imperial conflict!

I am a bit stumped as to why we have marines vs humans though. Granted I'm only like 8 or 9 books in the series but so far the only human armies I've read about are from the legion home worlds/systems? I haven't seen or heard much of anything about these Solar folk. I get that the idea is probably to have a full starter set as an army rather than split it in to 2 factions but still, I just feel the marines would stomp the meat bags.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It needs to be considerably less than the price of Age of Darkness for me to consider it.

yes same here, if its pricy I may wait for a few reviews and if its good just get the book, I've got Warhounds and can print marines, vehicles etc, if the price is decent, and for me thats circa £100, I'd get it, closer to £150 and I won't bother

I can still play 1st edition since I have that electronically, can likely find 2nd edition the same and have the Net Epic stuff as well so hardly short on rule systems for this

slightly disappointed there isn't a terrain box included, would be a simple way to increase the value

 Tabletop_Magpie wrote:

I am a bit stumped as to why we have marines vs humans though. Granted I'm only like 8 or 9 books in the series but so far the only human armies I've read about are from the legion home worlds/systems? I haven't seen or heard much of anything about these Solar folk. I get that the idea is probably to have a full starter set as an army rather than split it in to 2 factions but still, I just feel the marines would stomp the meat bags.

We've seen nothing to suggest you're ever supposed to play the Marine part vs the Solar Aux part. The unit list on the back of the box doesn't even have separate columns for the two "factions"

Well we can make an estimate based on what already exists. We know a box of 2 warhound currently cost 75$. There's another sprue and special bases for Epic, so it's possible it's sold actually higher, but let's base ourselves on the current one.

For the vehicles, let's say there a box of 4 / 3 and a box of 2 (the Leman Russ / Predator, and the super heavies). We can make a comparison with Aeronautica Imperialis that tend to sell 50$ a box (number varies, depends of the size from 6 to 2). Let's assume it's somewhat 25-35$ the box.

For the infantry, based on what I see and the options, I'd say they sell the different faction parts together with the dreadnoughts / sentinels ( I don't see them sold separately, it feels a bit too small for that but maybe I'm wrong). Let's say 50$ each set , maybe 60 ?

The book itself is likety to be sold like a regular rulebook from other games. I'd say 60-70$, given its size.

It arrives at a 365$ together (assuming there's nothing else).

Now if we make a bundle price...I guess we could go down to 250-300$. 200, I'm not sure if it's really accurate to current GW pricing and (likely) upper inflation.

I suppose I'm just so used to seeing a two player starter/core set for most systems. After reading the preview article properly, yep, I agree this looks more like one unified force.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Tabletop_Magpie wrote:

I am a bit stumped as to why we have marines vs humans though. Granted I'm only like 8 or 9 books in the series but so far the only human armies I've read about are from the legion home worlds/systems? I haven't seen or heard much of anything about these Solar folk. I get that the idea is probably to have a full starter set as an army rather than split it in to 2 factions but still, I just feel the marines would stomp the meat bags.

We've seen nothing to suggest you're ever supposed to play the Marine part vs the Solar Aux part. The unit list on the back of the box doesn't even have separate columns for the two "factions"

Also every other box where the contents are supposed to go against each other, the factions are oriented looking at each other. Even for the HH Age of Darkness box where the contents where also advertised as a single army that is still the case.
But for this both the SM and the SA look in the same direction so I don't think they are meant to be played against each other.

0% chance of that happening so just take it as my rambling but everything in that box is potentially painted traitor right now. SM as Death Guard, Titans as Legio Mortis and while I don't know about SA paint schemes, for them any kind of scheme would work both for loyalists and traitors. So what if we might see another box with different contents painted as loyalists that is meant to go against this one for a dual starter set launch? Maybe that one could even be Mechanicum and Custodes against this box with SM and SA.
But again while that would be great so chance of it being true.

 Matrindur wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Tabletop_Magpie wrote:

I am a bit stumped as to why we have marines vs humans though. Granted I'm only like 8 or 9 books in the series but so far the only human armies I've read about are from the legion home worlds/systems? I haven't seen or heard much of anything about these Solar folk. I get that the idea is probably to have a full starter set as an army rather than split it in to 2 factions but still, I just feel the marines would stomp the meat bags.

We've seen nothing to suggest you're ever supposed to play the Marine part vs the Solar Aux part. The unit list on the back of the box doesn't even have separate columns for the two "factions"

Also every other box where the contents are supposed to go against each other, the factions are oriented looking at each other. Even for the HH Age of Darkness box where the contents where also advertised as a single army that is still the case.
But for this both the SM and the SA look in the same direction so I don't think they are meant to be played against each other.

0% chance of that happening so just take it as my rambling but everything in that box is potentially painted traitor right now. SM as Death Guard, Titans as Legio Mortis and while I don't know about SA paint schemes, for them any kind of scheme would work both for loyalists and traitors. So what if we might see another box with different contents painted as loyalists that is meant to go against this one for a dual starter set launch? Maybe that one could even be Mechanicum and Custodes against this box with SM and SA.
But again while that would be great so chance of it being true.

Solar Auxilia seem to match the colours of the Cthonian Head Hunters, so definitely traitor.

25mm bases just confirmed on the Forgeworld social media page!

This means most of my collection is now entirely usable and whilst I'm 99.99% sure no one in my group will want to swap from using Epic40k rules, this does mean my wallet is likely to take quite the beating over the next 6 months!



Edit for screenshot:

Nice! Considering that, these look smaller than the resin Armigers. Speaking of which, I expect them to be re-worked into plastic now...

10 Things You Need To Know About Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis (WarCom)

Hidden Orders & Alternating Activation mentioned, but a bit light on actual details...

Sounding a lot like 2nd with other edition rules mixed in.

Also, ruined terrain!




Also, note new base on Warbringer:

New ruins looks nice, waaay better than the AT building.

hidden orders is what 1st edition had, Advance, First Fire or Charge, with a Fall Back order you could be forced to issue

then split phases with alternating activations

sounds decent

the terrain looks.. odd, but ok

Sarouan wrote:
Well we can make an estimate based on what already exists. We know a box of 2 warhound currently cost 75$. There's another sprue and special bases for Epic, so it's possible it's sold actually higher, but let's base ourselves on the current one.

For the vehicles, let's say there a box of 4 / 3 and a box of 2 (the Leman Russ / Predator, and the super heavies). We can make a comparison with Aeronautica Imperialis that tend to sell 50$ a box (number varies, depends of the size from 6 to 2). Let's assume it's somewhat 25-35$ the box.

For the infantry, based on what I see and the options, I'd say they sell the different faction parts together with the dreadnoughts / sentinels ( I don't see them sold separately, it feels a bit too small for that but maybe I'm wrong). Let's say 50$ each set , maybe 60 ?

The book itself is likety to be sold like a regular rulebook from other games. I'd say 60-70$, given its size.

It arrives at a 365$ together (assuming there's nothing else).

Now if we make a bundle price...I guess we could go down to 250-300$. 200, I'm not sure if it's really accurate to current GW pricing and (likely) upper inflation.

Sounds plausible. Unfortunately 300$ after leviathan just launched at 250$ means it's dead on arrival. I think GW understands this and it will be closer to 200$ if not I don't see it getting very far. Granted this is just my thoughts with some of the folks I play witgn and would like to play epic with thoughts on the subject. 150$ would be solid gold for this. Maybe after discount.

Or if they price it like ash wastes (necromunda big box) then I'll just wait untill it's droped hard by the community and pick it up at 166$ on ebay (the same price I grabbed ash wastes for)

 zedmeister wrote:
Sounding a lot like 2nd with other edition rules mixed in.

Also, ruined terrain!




Also, note new base on Warbringer:

If they rebox that terrain with just an extra sprue of ruins and then double the price of the set, I will complain loudly on the internet!

Still, I'm a sucker for Epic and I'd still likely buy a set or 10!

Looking again, it's hard to pin down exactly, but seems like a Hybrid edition:

- Alt Activation - that's a given
- Hidden orders - 1st/2nd edition
- Terrain rules with roads being faster - 3rd edition
- Detachment and army building rules sound like 4th edition
- Weapon rules sound like 4th (Anti-Infantry, Anti-Tank, Macro Weapons)

Excuse me.

I need to go have a wipe down and change my grundies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

leopard wrote:
hidden orders is what 1st edition had, Advance, First Fire or Charge, with a Fall Back order you could be forced to issue

then split phases with alternating activations

sounds decent

the terrain looks.. odd, but ok

The kit behind the terrain is terrific. It takes an age to build big buildings, but boy can you build Big Buildings!

1st had anti tank and anti infantry weapons, guns having different stats depending what you shot them at as well

IIRC a lascannon was pants shooting at infantry for example


Automatically Appended Next Post:
rescaled some 6mm land raiders to 8mm, will print later and see how they look alongside warhounds.

mostly "just because", not the old style ones, a 40k style one as I have a nice model of it

 RexHavoc wrote:
25mm bases just confirmed on the Forgeworld social media page!

This means most of my collection is now entirely usable and whilst I'm 99.99% sure no one in my group will want to swap from using Epic40k rules, this does mean my wallet is likely to take quite the beating over the next 6 months!

That should take care of all the Epic FB group people complaining about the size! (it won't)

Time for a Reasonably Unreasonable Demand.

Land Raiders had best remain a proper Jack of All Trades!

looking at the infantry pictures in the wider view, thinking, what harm is there in that?

looks like they have arranged it as two units, I hope the units are a bit more flexible and they have not abstracted it to be "marine detachment" etc.

we appear to have two marine units, the first being

- 1x command stand
- 2x heavy weapon stands
- 6x tactical stands?

the second looks like

- 1x command stand
- 2x terminator stands
- 2x assault stands
- 4x tactical stands

the question mark on the first is because I think its six tactical, it could be four and two of something else

tanks are obviously a unit of two and a unit of three, and at a guess the dreadnoughts are also a unit, of four

the infantry I wonder about, will that be a unit of four tactical stands and a commander, to which others can be added? or have they just grouped models that can be used otherwise

e.g. is the first a tactical squad of four stands, then a heavy weapons squad of two stands and maybe a tactical support squad of two stands?

the second is more curious with the terminators in two stands as a squad sort of making sense but the assault unit of two stands is a bit small.

this suggests you will either have quite a granular level as to how forces are built - assemble a command from multiple squads, or it largely doesn't matter and the unit will be a "thing" with its own stats and maybe a card terminal for its weapons and damage track ala Knights?

hard to imagine you will be issuing orders to individual squads at this scale but you never know I guess

Can somebody shed some light on this, what edition is NetEpic primarily based on? Local Epic community primarily playes a mix of E:A and NetE, and so far the reaction to the new announcement has been mixed. People like new models, but are afraid GW will butcher the rules.