I really don't get how the 2 barrels here are meant to work considering where the ammo is.
Or where the ejection port is, for that matter.
GW definitely aren't gunsmiths.
Well if it's a helical magazine that feeds aft to fore, it's... relatively in the right place. But two barrels? Yeah, that's something special. I'll probably give mine the ol' snip snip.
between the trike and these guys. I'm not sure about the guns. Its like they are taking 2 random guns and blending them weirdly.
I really don't get how the 2 barrels here are meant to work considering where the ammo is.
Or where the ejection port is, for that matter.
GW definitely aren't gunsmiths.
Yeah it’s like they saw a Calico pistol and thought “hey, let’s combine that with a Lawgiver” but completely forgot they aren’t dealing with Orks who have the option of literally teleporting the shell from the magazine to the chamber.
between the trike and these guys. I'm not sure about the guns. Its like they are taking 2 random guns and blending them weirdly.
I really don't get how the 2 barrels here are meant to work considering where the ammo is.
Or where the ejection port is, for that matter.
GW definitely aren't gunsmiths.
Yeah it’s like they saw a Calico pistol and thought “hey, let’s combine that with a Lawgiver” but completely forgot they aren’t dealing with Orks who have the option of literally teleporting the shell from the magazine to the chamber.
I really don't get how the 2 barrels here are meant to work considering where the ammo is.
Or where the ejection port is, for that matter.
GW definitely aren't gunsmiths.
Well if it's a helical magazine that feeds aft to fore, it's... relatively in the right place. But two barrels? Yeah, that's something special. I'll probably give mine the ol' snip snip.
The magazine could have two separate feeding ports side by side. Internally, the left side of the mag feeds the bottom barrel, the right side feeds the upper barrel. Two separate followers to push the round into the chamber. Honestly though, who cares? It's all fiction nonsense. If it's fun, go with it.
It's just odd that they'd do a 40k version of the fantasy dwarf archetype but take away/not bother with what is perhaps the most iconic element of the whole idea. I get that the original miniatures didn't really have them to a significant degree, but Grendlesen had a big beard and he was a great miniature that felt right for an update of the originals. To have the armour of the new ones in such a way that you can't have that sort of beard at all is baffling.
After looking at them more I do quite like these new Necromunda Squat miniatures (other than the double barrel weapon thing) but the lack of proper beards isn't a good thing.
between the trike and these guys. I'm not sure about the guns. Its like they are taking 2 random guns and blending them weirdly.
I really don't get how the 2 barrels here are meant to work considering where the ammo is.
Or where the ejection port is, for that matter.
GW definitely aren't gunsmiths.
Yeah it’s like they saw a Calico pistol and thought “hey, let’s combine that with a Lawgiver” but completely forgot they aren’t dealing with Orks who have the option of literally teleporting the shell from the magazine to the chamber.
That's not a thing with Orks, is it?
Yeah? I mean why not? The Adeptus Mechanicus keeps examining Ork gear and finding random weapons with no way for the bullet to leave the ammo hopper and get to the barrel so why not a micro tellyporta? Would explain why a bunch of their bullet spitters also have batteries. Orks do after all have the second highest tech base in the setting. After the Jokaero.
I swear it’s like da yoof dese days fergot Ork accountants exist.
between the trike and these guys. I'm not sure about the guns. Its like they are taking 2 random guns and blending them weirdly.
I really don't get how the 2 barrels here are meant to work considering where the ammo is.
Or where the ejection port is, for that matter.
GW definitely aren't gunsmiths.
Yeah it’s like they saw a Calico pistol and thought “hey, let’s combine that with a Lawgiver” but completely forgot they aren’t dealing with Orks who have the option of literally teleporting the shell from the magazine to the chamber.
That's not a thing with Orks, is it?
Yeah? I mean why not? The Adeptus Mechanicus keeps examining Ork gear and finding random weapons with no way for the bullet to leave the ammo hopper and get to the barrel so why not a micro tellyporta? Would explain why a bunch of their bullet spitters also have batteries. Orks do after all have the second highest tech base in the setting. After the Jokaero.
I swear it’s like da yoof dese days fergot Ork accountants exist.
So the verdict is out. Cash Wastes is too expensive and the Squat guns don´t work. Nobody will buy nothing then. What a relief. Turn off your computers people and go to sleep.
I like the Necromunda squats. I don't like the hover trike. I wish they weren't making a point of keeping the Necromunda squats out of Leagues of Votann armies.
Not sure why GW would want to do something that unnecessarily limits the size of a new range by depriving it of a perfectly reasonable kit.
blaktoof wrote: "While they’re not part of the Leagues, we’re sure they’d still get on with the Kin who are all grumbling about the Aeldari while sitting in the pub."
Seems like squats are not leagues of votann
The article seems to lay out their relationship. They are the descendants of explorers that left the home worlds and settled down on Necromunda (and maybe other worlds too?), and "gone native". Maybe their gear looks more beat up because they have had to get by without the help of their ancestor cores. A read of an unboxing video for the Ash Wastes also mentions how the terraforming structures called Needles were erected by itinerant clans of Squats, and now maintained by their descendants.
The magazine/barrel problem in the gun is one thing, but it has an iron sight front post that is lower than the gun casing immediately behind it, on a gun that is supposed to be fired from the hip. And is that supposed to be some kind of optical sight eyepiece at the back?
I really don't get how the 2 barrels here are meant to work considering where the ammo is.
Or where the ejection port is, for that matter.
GW definitely aren't gunsmiths.
Well if it's a helical magazine that feeds aft to fore, it's... relatively in the right place. But two barrels? Yeah, that's something special. I'll probably give mine the ol' snip snip.
The magazine could have two separate feeding ports side by side. Internally, the left side of the mag feeds the bottom barrel, the right side feeds the upper barrel. Two separate followers to push the round into the chamber. Honestly though, who cares? It's all fiction nonsense. If it's fun, go with it.
If it's a helical magazine, which it looks like, can't have two sides feeding two barrels. If it's three separate drums, you could have one feeding one barrel, one feeding another (and a third there for lulz) but then you need a second ejection port (maybe on left side?). I'm totally fine with the "if it's fun, go with it" but I think a single barrel fed by a large helical mag is just way more fun.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flinty wrote: The magazine/barrel problem in the gun is one thing, but it has an iron sight front post that is lower than the gun casing immediately behind it, on a gun that is supposed to be fired from the hip. And is that supposed to be some kind of optical sight eyepiece at the back?
No. GW does not know anything about guns.
Design Team: The front sight is too low, we need to raise the front sight.
The lore mentioned for these sounds like the sort of thing the Leagues themselves should have involved; being skilled miners and salvagers who roam around in absurdly huge mining machines and take everything they can from an area before leaving to set up elsewhere. Basically Dwarf Jawas.
between the trike and these guys. I'm not sure about the guns. Its like they are taking 2 random guns and blending them weirdly.
I really don't get how the 2 barrels here are meant to work considering where the ammo is.
Or where the ejection port is, for that matter.
GW definitely aren't gunsmiths.
Yeah it’s like they saw a Calico pistol and thought “hey, let’s combine that with a Lawgiver” but completely forgot they aren’t dealing with Orks who have the option of literally teleporting the shell from the magazine to the chamber.
That's not a thing with Orks, is it?
Yeah? I mean why not? The Adeptus Mechanicus keeps examining Ork gear and finding random weapons with no way for the bullet to leave the ammo hopper and get to the barrel so why not a micro tellyporta? Would explain why a bunch of their bullet spitters also have batteries. Orks do after all have the second highest tech base in the setting. After the Jokaero.
I swear it’s like da yoof dese days fergot Ork accountants exist.
Ah, I had assumed you were referring to the absurd "Orks can change reality to do anything they want" meme. Is that "finding no way for the bullet to leave the ammo hopper" actually a specific piece of lore somewhere though?
blaktoof wrote: "While they’re not part of the Leagues, we’re sure they’d still get on with the Kin who are all grumbling about the Aeldari while sitting in the pub."
Seems like squats are not leagues of votann
They shouldn´t be grumbling about Eldar (what does Aeldari even mean?!) but rather defend their Ash Wastes brewery from grot raids.
They should be helping Zargul defend their mines from McDeath.
Mentlegen324 wrote: The lore mentioned for these sounds like the sort of thing the Leagues themselves should have involved; being skilled miners and salvagers who roam around in absurdly huge mining machines and take everything they can from an area before leaving to set up elsewhere. Basically Dwarf Jawas.
between the trike and these guys. I'm not sure about the guns. Its like they are taking 2 random guns and blending them weirdly.
I really don't get how the 2 barrels here are meant to work considering where the ammo is.
Or where the ejection port is, for that matter.
GW definitely aren't gunsmiths.
Yeah it’s like they saw a Calico pistol and thought “hey, let’s combine that with a Lawgiver” but completely forgot they aren’t dealing with Orks who have the option of literally teleporting the shell from the magazine to the chamber.
That's not a thing with Orks, is it?
Yeah? I mean why not? The Adeptus Mechanicus keeps examining Ork gear and finding random weapons with no way for the bullet to leave the ammo hopper and get to the barrel so why not a micro tellyporta? Would explain why a bunch of their bullet spitters also have batteries. Orks do after all have the second highest tech base in the setting. After the Jokaero.
I swear it’s like da yoof dese days fergot Ork accountants exist.
Ah, I had assumed you were referring to the absurd "Orks can change reality to do anything they want" meme. Is that "finding no way for the bullet to leave the ammo hopper" actually a specific piece of lore somewhere though?
Sort of, there's several mentions of techpriests getting ahold of ork guns and them not capable of even functioning outside of ork hands. Like, you open it and there's not even a firing mechanism, just a tube. But the Orks think "It looks like a shoota, so it's a shoota, innit?" so it works in their hands and theirs alone. Apparently many just fall apart into pieces when someone grabs one.
Interesting small aspect of the article, mentions "grumbling about the Aeldari while sitting in the pub." which implies they might have the usual trope of Dwarfs enjoying drinking a lot.
Mentlegen324 wrote: The lore mentioned for these sounds like the sort of thing the Leagues themselves should have involved; being skilled miners and salvagers who roam around in absurdly huge mining machines and take everything they can from an area before leaving to set up elsewhere. Basically Dwarf Jawas.
between the trike and these guys. I'm not sure about the guns. Its like they are taking 2 random guns and blending them weirdly.
I really don't get how the 2 barrels here are meant to work considering where the ammo is.
Or where the ejection port is, for that matter.
GW definitely aren't gunsmiths.
Yeah it’s like they saw a Calico pistol and thought “hey, let’s combine that with a Lawgiver” but completely forgot they aren’t dealing with Orks who have the option of literally teleporting the shell from the magazine to the chamber.
That's not a thing with Orks, is it?
Yeah? I mean why not? The Adeptus Mechanicus keeps examining Ork gear and finding random weapons with no way for the bullet to leave the ammo hopper and get to the barrel so why not a micro tellyporta? Would explain why a bunch of their bullet spitters also have batteries. Orks do after all have the second highest tech base in the setting. After the Jokaero.
I swear it’s like da yoof dese days fergot Ork accountants exist.
Ah, I had assumed you were referring to the absurd "Orks can change reality to do anything they want" meme. Is that "finding no way for the bullet to leave the ammo hopper" actually a specific piece of lore somewhere though?
Sort of, there's several mentions of techpriests getting ahold of ork guns and them not capable of even functioning outside of ork hands. Like, you open it and there's not even a firing mechanism, just a tube. But the Orks think "It looks like a shoota, so it's a shoota, innit?" so it works in their hands and theirs alone. Apparently many just fall apart into pieces when someone grabs one.
That type of specific example is the sort of meme lore that gets commonly claimed about the idea as being a thing "somewhere" but no one is able to give a source, quote or seems to have actually read it themselves. It's how the Mechancus theorizes things work, but it's not actually how the the lore says Ork technology or their abilities works at all.
Sort of, there's several mentions of techpriests getting ahold of ork guns and them not capable of even functioning outside of ork hands. Like, you open it and there's not even a firing mechanism, just a tube. But the Orks think "It looks like a shoota, so it's a shoota, innit?" so it works in their hands and theirs alone. Apparently many just fall apart into pieces when someone grabs one.
Ork Hunters of Armageddon used Ork weapons successfully on a regular basis (and had rules as per the 3rd War for Armageddeon global campaign website). Ork weaponry does not work exclusively for Orks.
between the trike and these guys. I'm not sure about the guns. Its like they are taking 2 random guns and blending them weirdly.
I really don't get how the 2 barrels here are meant to work considering where the ammo is.
Or where the ejection port is, for that matter.
GW definitely aren't gunsmiths.
Yeah it’s like they saw a Calico pistol and thought “hey, let’s combine that with a Lawgiver” but completely forgot they aren’t dealing with Orks who have the option of literally teleporting the shell from the magazine to the chamber.
That's not a thing with Orks, is it?
Yeah? I mean why not? The Adeptus Mechanicus keeps examining Ork gear and finding random weapons with no way for the bullet to leave the ammo hopper and get to the barrel so why not a micro tellyporta? Would explain why a bunch of their bullet spitters also have batteries. Orks do after all have the second highest tech base in the setting. After the Jokaero.
I swear it’s like da yoof dese days fergot Ork accountants exist.
Ah, I had assumed you were referring to the absurd "Orks can change reality to do anything they want" meme. Is that "finding no way for the bullet to leave the ammo hopper" actually a specific piece of lore somewhere though?
Sort of, there's several mentions of techpriests getting ahold of ork guns and them not capable of even functioning outside of ork hands. Like, you open it and there's not even a firing mechanism, just a tube. But the Orks think "It looks like a shoota, so it's a shoota, innit?" so it works in their hands and theirs alone. Apparently many just fall apart into pieces when someone grabs one.
That type of specific example is the sort of meme lore that gets commonly claimed about the idea as being a thing "somewhere" but no one is able to give a source, quote or seems to have actually read it themselves. It's how the Mechancus theorizes things work, but it's not actually how the the lore says Ork technology or their abilities works at all.
Yeah, that’s just 4chan meme flanderisation; the one piece of actual lore that proposes the subconscious psychokinesis hypothesis is written from the perspective of a magos biologis who was studying orkoid reproduction and went off on a tangent into fields he was entirely unqualified to comment on. The Internet, desperate to grasp any straw that perpetuates the “Orks are incompetent apes” stereotype, jumped on it and blew it out of all proportion.
Ork guns do work for non-Orks, as do their vehicles (once you figure out that there’s two accelerator pedals and no brakes. Or clutch) and some other bits. Multiple lore segments and even in-game rules testify to that. Also, even if an Ork device falls apart in the hands of a non-Ork, is that because Meks are toddlers playing with craft glue and popsicle sticks or because that Mek decided he didn’t want anyone to loot his gear and get away with it so built it to self destruct?
between the trike and these guys. I'm not sure about the guns. Its like they are taking 2 random guns and blending them weirdly.
I really don't get how the 2 barrels here are meant to work considering where the ammo is.
Or where the ejection port is, for that matter.
GW definitely aren't gunsmiths.
Yeah it’s like they saw a Calico pistol and thought “hey, let’s combine that with a Lawgiver” but completely forgot they aren’t dealing with Orks who have the option of literally teleporting the shell from the magazine to the chamber.
That's not a thing with Orks, is it?
Yeah? I mean why not? The Adeptus Mechanicus keeps examining Ork gear and finding random weapons with no way for the bullet to leave the ammo hopper and get to the barrel so why not a micro tellyporta? Would explain why a bunch of their bullet spitters also have batteries. Orks do after all have the second highest tech base in the setting. After the Jokaero.
I swear it’s like da yoof dese days fergot Ork accountants exist.
Ah, I had assumed you were referring to the absurd "Orks can change reality to do anything they want" meme. Is that "finding no way for the bullet to leave the ammo hopper" actually a specific piece of lore somewhere though?
Sort of, there's several mentions of techpriests getting ahold of ork guns and them not capable of even functioning outside of ork hands. Like, you open it and there's not even a firing mechanism, just a tube. But the Orks think "It looks like a shoota, so it's a shoota, innit?" so it works in their hands and theirs alone. Apparently many just fall apart into pieces when someone grabs one.
That type of specific example is the sort of meme lore that gets commonly claimed about the idea as being a thing "somewhere" but no one is able to give a source, quote or seems to have actually read it themselves. It's how the Mechancus theorizes things work, but it's not actually how the the lore says Ork technology or their abilities works at all.
Yeah, that’s just 4chan meme flanderisation; the one piece of actual lore that proposes the subconscious psychokinesis hypothesis is written from the perspective of a magos biologis who was studying orkoid reproduction and went off on a tangent into fields he was entirely unqualified to comment on. The Internet, desperate to grasp any straw that perpetuates the “Orks are incompetent apes” stereotype, jumped on it and blew it out of all proportion.
Ork guns do work for non-Orks, as do their vehicles (once you figure out that there’s two accelerator pedals and no brakes. Or clutch) and some other bits. Multiple lore segments and even in-game rules testify to that.
Also, even if an Ork device falls apart in the hands of a non-Ork, is that because Meks are toddlers playing with craft glue and popsicle sticks or because that Mek decided he didn’t want anyone to loot his gear and get away with it so built it to self destruct?
firmlog wrote: I like it except for the handgun/revolver/slide shotgun. It just doesn't make sense to me, and made me feel uncomfortable looking at it.
Whoever designed it reminds me of politicians that say things like "it has a 30 caliber clipazine that can dispense 100 bullets in 8 seconds" or "we need to ban barrel shrouds and shoulder things that go up"
firmlog wrote: I like it except for the handgun/revolver/slide shotgun. It just doesn't make sense to me, and made me feel uncomfortable looking at it.
Whoever designed it reminds me of politicians that say things like "it has a 30 caliber clipazine that can dispense 100 bullets in 8 seconds" or "we need to ban barrel shrouds and shoulder things that go up"
I remember busting up laughing when she said that.
firmlog wrote: I like it except for the handgun/revolver/slide shotgun. It just doesn't make sense to me, and made me feel uncomfortable looking at it.
Whoever designed it reminds me of politicians that say things like "it has a 30 caliber clipazine that can dispense 100 bullets in 8 seconds" or "we need to ban barrel shrouds and shoulder things that go up"
I remember busting up laughing when she said that.
There's a good youtube remix where they splice that speech with a scene from Predator. You know, since he has "the shoulder thing that goes up."
Plastic accessory for sure I would guess.
I see these as the mine guards in hostile wastes.
They did say that other factions did not like them much due to the fact they stripped everything with their mining.
The only thing that is mildly annoying is that we will have only 8 in a box. The OCD in me needs 10.
On another note since we only just had the Ash wastes released when do we expect to have this expansion landing?
Judging by most terrain releases, most worlds are a thin layer of topsoil covering a layer of skulls. Squats have just come to realize that mining is therefore the fastest way of collecting them for khorne.
I got a chance last week to see these Ash Wastes releases in the flesh.
The game's 50/50. Figures are of course top tier, but the game seemed to me half finished. Its -Another rulebook, and the figures rules are in pamphlets that come as an added bonus. O.o The other beasts are yet to be talked about, so I'll hold that. As an obvious, The other gangs are supposed to get vehicles, as well, and there's something pretty big coming that they are going to put out in a couple of days/ weeks.
The Nomads are top notch, and I'll be jumping on them hard when they start showing up in the secondhand market.
With Knights, Horus heresy, Chaos marines, and AoS releases taking up the next few months, and Squats scheduled for "this year", I'm placing money on a November release. Second weekend of the month.
between the trike and these guys. I'm not sure about the guns. Its like they are taking 2 random guns and blending them weirdly.
I really don't get how the 2 barrels here are meant to work considering where the ammo is.
Or where the ejection port is, for that matter.
GW definitely aren't gunsmiths.
Yeah it’s like they saw a Calico pistol and thought “hey, let’s combine that with a Lawgiver” but completely forgot they aren’t dealing with Orks who have the option of literally teleporting the shell from the magazine to the chamber.
That's not a thing with Orks, is it?
Yeah? I mean why not? The Adeptus Mechanicus keeps examining Ork gear and finding random weapons with no way for the bullet to leave the ammo hopper and get to the barrel so why not a micro tellyporta? Would explain why a bunch of their bullet spitters also have batteries. Orks do after all have the second highest tech base in the setting. After the Jokaero.
I swear it’s like da yoof dese days fergot Ork accountants exist.
Ah, I had assumed you were referring to the absurd "Orks can change reality to do anything they want" meme. Is that "finding no way for the bullet to leave the ammo hopper" actually a specific piece of lore somewhere though?
Sort of, there's several mentions of techpriests getting ahold of ork guns and them not capable of even functioning outside of ork hands. Like, you open it and there's not even a firing mechanism, just a tube. But the Orks think "It looks like a shoota, so it's a shoota, innit?" so it works in their hands and theirs alone. Apparently many just fall apart into pieces when someone grabs one.
That type of specific example is the sort of meme lore that gets commonly claimed about the idea as being a thing "somewhere" but no one is able to give a source, quote or seems to have actually read it themselves. It's how the Mechancus theorizes things work, but it's not actually how the the lore says Ork technology or their abilities works at all.
Yeah, that’s just 4chan meme flanderisation; the one piece of actual lore that proposes the subconscious psychokinesis hypothesis is written from the perspective of a magos biologis who was studying orkoid reproduction and went off on a tangent into fields he was entirely unqualified to comment on. The Internet, desperate to grasp any straw that perpetuates the “Orks are incompetent apes” stereotype, jumped on it and blew it out of all proportion.
Ork guns do work for non-Orks, as do their vehicles (once you figure out that there’s two accelerator pedals and no brakes. Or clutch) and some other bits. Multiple lore segments and even in-game rules testify to that.
Also, even if an Ork device falls apart in the hands of a non-Ork, is that because Meks are toddlers playing with craft glue and popsicle sticks or because that Mek decided he didn’t want anyone to loot his gear and get away with it so built it to self destruct?
firmlog wrote: I like it except for the handgun/revolver/slide shotgun. It just doesn't make sense to me, and made me feel uncomfortable looking at it.
Whoever designed it reminds me of politicians that say things like "it has a 30 caliber clipazine that can dispense 100 bullets in 8 seconds" or "we need to ban barrel shrouds and shoulder things that go up"
With a compass in the stock and this thing that tells time
I really don't get how the 2 barrels here are meant to work considering where the ammo is.
Or where the ejection port is, for that matter.
GW definitely aren't gunsmiths.
Well if it's a helical magazine that feeds aft to fore, it's... relatively in the right place. But two barrels? Yeah, that's something special. I'll probably give mine the ol' snip snip.
The magazine could have two separate feeding ports side by side. Internally, the left side of the mag feeds the bottom barrel, the right side feeds the upper barrel. Two separate followers to push the round into the chamber. Honestly though, who cares? It's all fiction nonsense. If it's fun, go with it.
If it's a helical magazine, which it looks like, can't have two sides feeding two barrels. If it's three separate drums, you could have one feeding one barrel, one feeding another (and a third there for lulz) but then you need a second ejection port (maybe on left side?). I'm totally fine with the "if it's fun, go with it" but I think a single barrel fed by a large helical mag is just way more fun.
You could have a divided wall down the center that each magazine follower spring pushes off of, in opposite directions. Similar to half a drum mag on each side. Who cares though? If you want "factual" weapons play flames of war or some other historic game. Tyranids have guns that shoot electric slugs....magazines are the last things to worry about.
I'm really not a fan of the necromunda squats. It looks like the models had little to no creative thought put into their design.
I really don't get how the 2 barrels here are meant to work considering where the ammo is.
Or where the ejection port is, for that matter.
GW definitely aren't gunsmiths.
Well if it's a helical magazine that feeds aft to fore, it's... relatively in the right place. But two barrels? Yeah, that's something special. I'll probably give mine the ol' snip snip.
The magazine could have two separate feeding ports side by side. Internally, the left side of the mag feeds the bottom barrel, the right side feeds the upper barrel. Two separate followers to push the round into the chamber. Honestly though, who cares? It's all fiction nonsense. If it's fun, go with it.
If it's a helical magazine, which it looks like, can't have two sides feeding two barrels. If it's three separate drums, you could have one feeding one barrel, one feeding another (and a third there for lulz) but then you need a second ejection port (maybe on left side?). I'm totally fine with the "if it's fun, go with it" but I think a single barrel fed by a large helical mag is just way more fun.
I'm really not a fan of the necromunda squats. It looks like the models had little to no creative thought put into their design.[/size]
How? There are some odd choices I dislike like the lack of beards and double-barrel weapons, but they overall give a heavy duty industrial miner vibe, with a slight retro sci-fi feel and a callback to the original squats with their helmets.
Well they're an amalgam of a lot of GW's art style issues: hunchbacked, godawfully thick, especially in the arms, you could almost put a Cawdor torso through those massive sleeves, faction identity for some reason boiled down to an ornate belt buckle that doesn't gel with the rest of the design, and of course those mechanically utterly nonsensical guns.
the magazines are fine especially if you consider some of the cartridges may use consumable cases...
I really hope the gun does have at least 2 shot types though
and the unusable iron sight is just as dumb as others have pointed out.... if they'd wanted the extra detail there they could have just extended it back into the body of the gun and it would have become a reinforcing rib instead
lord_blackfang wrote: Well they're an amalgam of a lot of GW's art style issues: hunchbacked, godawfully thick, especially in the arms, you could almost put a Cawdor torso through those massive sleeves, faction identity for some reason boiled down to an ornate belt buckle that doesn't gel with the rest of the design, and of course those mechanically utterly nonsensical guns.
The lack of faction identity is definitely a big issue. It feels like the models lack unique stylization. They're just bland. I hope the same mistakes aren't made with the leagues of votann
lord_blackfang wrote: Well they're an amalgam of a lot of GW's art style issues: hunchbacked, godawfully thick, especially in the arms, you could almost put a Cawdor torso through those massive sleeves, faction identity for some reason boiled down to an ornate belt buckle that doesn't gel with the rest of the design, and of course those mechanically utterly nonsensical guns.
The lack of faction identity is definitely a big issue. It feels like the models lack unique stylization. They're just bland. I hope the same mistakes aren't made with the leagues of votann
These miniatures seem less bland than the one we've seen from the League.They at least have a callback to the original designs and some Dwarf-like Embellishments.
The Leagues don't seem to have any sort of noticeable theming, they come across as generic sci-fi.
I just don't get what they're doing with them at all. The Lack of proper Dwarf Beards, the decision to give them all big bulky suits of armour where their head is buried inside it and the collar comes up to their chin so you can't even really give them beards if you wanted to, the lack of Dwarf-themed elements or anything like that to add a sense of life and culture to the miniatures, the lack of a distinct styling overall beyond just sci-fi, how they're potentially all amputated, how we've now had 3 different versions of Squats....
Kanluwen wrote: Tweaked version looks like a happy meal toy. The original version is perfectly fine.
That “tweaked” one is exactly what did in the squats last time, they need to try new things with a nod to the past, not recreate a line that didn’t work before and wouldn’t again. Odd that changing the female head to male seems to appeal to so many, I mean I am sure there will be multiple head options but surely having females in a faction isn’t soo bad is it???
Kanluwen wrote: Tweaked version looks like a happy meal toy. The original version is perfectly fine.
That “tweaked” one is exactly what did in the squats last time, they need to try new things with a nod to the past, not recreate a line that didn’t work before and wouldn’t again. Odd that changing the female head to male seems to appeal to so many, I mean I am sure there will be multiple head options but surely having females in a faction isn’t soo bad is it???
No it wasn't. The reason the Squats were removed was because their theming in terms of tabletop miniatures revolved heavily around them being silly biker dwarfs with the name "Squats", rather than them having done the whole stoic hardy master-craftsmen fantasy Dwarf Archetype justice. They can have bikes and trikes, but making them overall an army of bikers was just too much. They didn't work because they weren't properly fantasy dwarfs. Jervis Johnson said the direction they'd gone for in Epic - Gryocopters, Landtrains, the Colossus - with their warmachines was said to be something that they should have done instead.
You just said the reason they didn’t work was because they themed as biker dwarves. That is the failed trope is was referring too. There was actually a lot more to 1st edition squats than the bikers. They were actually hardy miners and proud fantasy dwarf types. Bikers were just the engineer guild, one part of the faction.
I don’t think the term squat was too bad back then. I think it’s more with hindsight it seems silly.
Tyran wrote: The disconnect here is that the Leagues of Votann aren't fantasy Dwarves in space, but a sci fi civilization that happens to be made of dwarves.
I am hyped for the leagues of votann. I like how they are a new faction, but they have enough nods to the past to be nostalgic without being just a rehash of old ideas that didn’t work well last time round. The necromunda lot seem cool too, bit more industrial.
lord_blackfang wrote: Well they're an amalgam of a lot of GW's art style issues: hunchbacked, godawfully thick, especially in the arms, you could almost put a Cawdor torso through those massive sleeves, faction identity for some reason boiled down to an ornate belt buckle that doesn't gel with the rest of the design, and of course those mechanically utterly nonsensical guns.
The lack of faction identity is definitely a big issue. It feels like the models lack unique stylization. They're just bland. I hope the same mistakes aren't made with the leagues of votann
These miniatures seem less bland than the one we've seen from the League.They at least have a callback to the original designs and some Dwarf-like Embellishments.
The Leagues don't seem to have any sort of noticeable theming, they come across as generic sci-fi.
I just don't get what they're doing with them at all. The Lack of proper Dwarf Beards, the decision to give them all big bulky suits of armour where their head is buried inside it and the collar comes up to their chin so you can't even really give them beards if you wanted to, the lack of Dwarf-themed elements or anything like that to add a sense of life and culture to the miniatures, the lack of a distinct styling overall beyond just sci-fi, how they're potentially all amputated, how we've now had 3 different versions of Squats....
No noticeable theming?! They shown us two models so far. Hard to spot a theme from that sample size.
'They don't have a theme' (or rather, 'I don't see a theme because I'm viewing a piece of an elephant through a fence-hole') is why we get Flanderization of factions.
You could have a divided wall down the center that each magazine follower spring pushes off of, in opposite directions. Similar to half a drum mag on each side. Who cares though? If you want "factual" weapons play flames of war or some other historic game. Tyranids have guns that shoot electric slugs....magazines are the last things to worry about.
I'm really not a fan of the necromunda squats. It looks like the models had little to no creative thought put into their design.
Then stop grasping at straws just to argue, as I agree with you! It doesn't need to be "factual" though some sense of physical correctness is nice for factions/ weapons based closer to modern day tech. For example, I think storm bolters kick ass.
Btw, I do play FoW and I wouldn't call that exactly "factual" either
Also the irony of you being picky on their creative design in the same paragraph where you critized my pickiness of the weapon design was not lost on me.
I was thinking about the mags. Calico arms did functional helixical magazines, and the are some double barreled auto guns out the. What if the mags are a double helix? Think DNA strand, but with bullets. Each side of the helix feeding a different barrel.
Tyran wrote: The disconnect here is that the Leagues of Votann aren't fantasy Dwarves in space, but a sci fi civilization that happens to be made of dwarves.
I am hyped for the leagues of votann. I like how they are a new faction, but they have enough nods to the past to be nostalgic without being just a rehash of old ideas that didn’t work well last time round. The necromunda lot seem cool too, bit more industrial.
lord_blackfang wrote: Well they're an amalgam of a lot of GW's art style issues: hunchbacked, godawfully thick, especially in the arms, you could almost put a Cawdor torso through those massive sleeves, faction identity for some reason boiled down to an ornate belt buckle that doesn't gel with the rest of the design, and of course those mechanically utterly nonsensical guns.
The lack of faction identity is definitely a big issue. It feels like the models lack unique stylization. They're just bland. I hope the same mistakes aren't made with the leagues of votann
These miniatures seem less bland than the one we've seen from the League.They at least have a callback to the original designs and some Dwarf-like Embellishments.
The Leagues don't seem to have any sort of noticeable theming, they come across as generic sci-fi.
I just don't get what they're doing with them at all. The Lack of proper Dwarf Beards, the decision to give them all big bulky suits of armour where their head is buried inside it and the collar comes up to their chin so you can't even really give them beards if you wanted to, the lack of Dwarf-themed elements or anything like that to add a sense of life and culture to the miniatures, the lack of a distinct styling overall beyond just sci-fi, how they're potentially all amputated, how we've now had 3 different versions of Squats....
No noticeable theming?! They shown us two models so far. Hard to spot a theme from that sample size.
We have seen 4 units (excluding the prospectors) to some extent, enough to get an idea of what they're going for in terms of the Kyn themselves. Their vehicles may be another matter, but the Kyn don't look like they have a substantial, unique take on the Dwarf archetype in the same the Kharadron Overlords do with their steampunk-esque style and armoured beard helmets. Instead it's lots of big bulky suits of generic sci-fi armour and little in the way of Dwarf aesthetics. The coat and aviator theming on the Pioneer is good, but underneath it's again that bland armour and it just looks out of place with the clothing.
Grendlesen and to some extent the Ironhead prospectors both feel like a better take on them overall. They both feel a more interesting representation of Sci-fi Dwarfs.
cuda1179 wrote: I was thinking about the mags. Calico arms did functional helixical magazines, and the are some double barreled auto guns out the. What if the mags are a double helix? Think DNA strand, but with bullets. Each side of the helix feeding a different barrel.
Seems like a dreadful waste of space for very little gain considering Calico drives are already double-stacked.
Personally I think the ridiculously short barrel would be more of a hindrance than any funky feed issues.
Heck, why not double down on ridiculous OTT design and have the “drum” be a revolver-like set of paired barrels full of stacked ceaseless ammo, like Metal Storm?
That does make the ejection port 100% redundant though.
Still need an ejection port to clear dud rounds, although not in a metal storm style configuration I suppose. If something goes wrong there it just blows the thing apart…
Tyran wrote: The disconnect here is that the Leagues of Votann aren't fantasy Dwarves in space, but a sci fi civilization that happens to be made of dwarves.
I am hyped for the leagues of votann. I like how they are a new faction, but they have enough nods to the past to be nostalgic without being just a rehash of old ideas that didn’t work well last time round. The necromunda lot seem cool too, bit more industrial.
lord_blackfang wrote: Well they're an amalgam of a lot of GW's art style issues: hunchbacked, godawfully thick, especially in the arms, you could almost put a Cawdor torso through those massive sleeves, faction identity for some reason boiled down to an ornate belt buckle that doesn't gel with the rest of the design, and of course those mechanically utterly nonsensical guns.
The lack of faction identity is definitely a big issue. It feels like the models lack unique stylization. They're just bland. I hope the same mistakes aren't made with the leagues of votann
These miniatures seem less bland than the one we've seen from the League.They at least have a callback to the original designs and some Dwarf-like Embellishments.
The Leagues don't seem to have any sort of noticeable theming, they come across as generic sci-fi.
I just don't get what they're doing with them at all. The Lack of proper Dwarf Beards, the decision to give them all big bulky suits of armour where their head is buried inside it and the collar comes up to their chin so you can't even really give them beards if you wanted to, the lack of Dwarf-themed elements or anything like that to add a sense of life and culture to the miniatures, the lack of a distinct styling overall beyond just sci-fi, how they're potentially all amputated, how we've now had 3 different versions of Squats....
No noticeable theming?! They shown us two models so far. Hard to spot a theme from that sample size.
We have seen 4 units (excluding the prospectors) to some extent, enough to get an idea of what they're going for in terms of the Kyn themselves. Their vehicles may be another matter, but the Kyn don't look like they have a substantial, unique take on the Dwarf archetype in the same the Kharadron Overlords do with their steampunk-esque style and armoured beard helmets. Instead it's lots of big bulky suits of generic sci-fi armour and little in the way of Dwarf aesthetics. The coat and aviator theming on the Pioneer is good, but underneath it's again that bland armour and it just looks out of place with the clothing.
Grendlesen and to some extent the Ironhead prospectors both feel like a better take on them overall. They both feel a more interesting representation of Sci-fi Dwarfs.
So it sounds more you like you don’t like what you have seen already. You clearly want fantasy dwarves, but in space. But what we are getting is space dwarves, an new faction that will have their own identity and style. And by the looks of what we have seen, smaller beards.
They tried fantasy dwarves in space early in sending edition and it didn’t work, so badly that they never released them. It’s got to the stage where even fantasy dwarves aren’t that anymore, they are steam punk dwarves. So it doesn’t look like you are getting what you want. But that doesn’t mean they don’t have a theme, or a style, it’s just not one you like.
I have a really soft spot for squats, by squats I mean proper 1sr edition squats. I cut my teeth mostly playing against them. And they were so much more than fantasy dwarves in space, so much more than biker dwarves, in space. Not at all what the memes would have you believe now. And the leagues are looking like a fantastic re-imagining of that and what they could have become. The look is different but that’s good, the old look was very much “short imperial guard”. But the theme is still the same. A technologically advanced group who are outside but tolerated by the imperium, not so far outside and more advanced as to be a threat, just enough to be tolerated. A very precarious position given how intolerant the imperium is. That’s what I have got from the 2 actual models we have seen. Clearly not an imperial faction but with clear nods to it, and clear connections to it.
The miner vibe had already been taken by genestealer cultists, and would be a bit obvious and contrived for a space dwarf faction, but the link to that back ground is still evident. The necromunda squats look plenty like they would fit in with the two models we have seen form the leagues.
But that’s personal taste for you, I like what I have seen so far and would hate what you clearly want.
Guns -- being yet another Brit I don't really get guns, just like GW don't. But could the second barrel be a spare barrel for if you warp or overheat the first one? Easy to replace in the field because it's right there? Physically pull it out and replace? I guess in the real world you wouldn't do that because of the weight -- you'd carry it somewhere else -- but science fantasy superhumans blah blah.
As for "why do the miners have guns and not mining tools" -- presumably because they're depicted going to war, rather than mining? Unless there is a new resource-gathering minigame to add to your wargame.
Ian Sturrock wrote: But could the second barrel be a spare barrel for if you warp or overheat the first one? Easy to replace in the field because it's right there? Physically pull it out and replace?
No because putting a spare barrel next to a flaming, melting barrel would be pretty stupid.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Their visors are going over their eyes. They're oversized visors.
I don't see what the big deal is.
Well, with the design of the helmet, unless they look like this, they can't see either.
You can see the nose on the bottom there, so his nose would be there, and that’s where eyes go.
Because of the angle of the photo you can see we are looking from slightly above, I’d say that straight on they’d be in the exact right spot.
But I guess we will wait for the models
Tyran wrote: The disconnect here is that the Leagues of Votann aren't fantasy Dwarves in space, but a sci fi civilization that happens to be made of dwarves.
I am hyped for the leagues of votann. I like how they are a new faction, but they have enough nods to the past to be nostalgic without being just a rehash of old ideas that didn’t work well last time round. The necromunda lot seem cool too, bit more industrial.
lord_blackfang wrote: Well they're an amalgam of a lot of GW's art style issues: hunchbacked, godawfully thick, especially in the arms, you could almost put a Cawdor torso through those massive sleeves, faction identity for some reason boiled down to an ornate belt buckle that doesn't gel with the rest of the design, and of course those mechanically utterly nonsensical guns.
The lack of faction identity is definitely a big issue. It feels like the models lack unique stylization. They're just bland. I hope the same mistakes aren't made with the leagues of votann
These miniatures seem less bland than the one we've seen from the League.They at least have a callback to the original designs and some Dwarf-like Embellishments.
The Leagues don't seem to have any sort of noticeable theming, they come across as generic sci-fi.
I just don't get what they're doing with them at all. The Lack of proper Dwarf Beards, the decision to give them all big bulky suits of armour where their head is buried inside it and the collar comes up to their chin so you can't even really give them beards if you wanted to, the lack of Dwarf-themed elements or anything like that to add a sense of life and culture to the miniatures, the lack of a distinct styling overall beyond just sci-fi, how they're potentially all amputated, how we've now had 3 different versions of Squats....
No noticeable theming?! They shown us two models so far. Hard to spot a theme from that sample size.
We have seen 4 units (excluding the prospectors) to some extent, enough to get an idea of what they're going for in terms of the Kyn themselves. Their vehicles may be another matter, but the Kyn don't look like they have a substantial, unique take on the Dwarf archetype in the same the Kharadron Overlords do with their steampunk-esque style and armoured beard helmets. Instead it's lots of big bulky suits of generic sci-fi armour and little in the way of Dwarf aesthetics. The coat and aviator theming on the Pioneer is good, but underneath it's again that bland armour and it just looks out of place with the clothing.
Grendlesen and to some extent the Ironhead prospectors both feel like a better take on them overall. They both feel a more interesting representation of Sci-fi Dwarfs.
So it sounds more you like you don’t like what you have seen already. You clearly want fantasy dwarves, but in space. But what we are getting is space dwarves, an new faction that will have their own identity and style. And by the looks of what we have seen, smaller beards.
They tried fantasy dwarves in space early in sending edition and it didn’t work, so badly that they never released them. It’s got to the stage where even fantasy dwarves aren’t that anymore, they are steam punk dwarves. So it doesn’t look like you are getting what you want. But that doesn’t mean they don’t have a theme, or a style, it’s just not one you like.
No, i want the new army that's meant to be the settings representation of the Dwarf archetype to have the elements that make up the Dwarf archetype they're supposed to be and to have their own unique identity for it in the same way the Kharadron Overlords do. You just saying "These are Space Dwarfs, not fantasy Dwarfs in space!" seems as if you're for some reason focusing on the literal "Fantasy" and "Space" aspects which is quite meaningless to the point, as they're the same thing by virtue of being Dwarfs. It sounds like you just don't want Dwarfs to be Dwarfs because it doesn't matter what type of setting it is or what their extra theming involves, there isn't a distinction between a "Fantasy" and ""Space" Dwarf - they're both based on the Dwarf archetype; a set of common traits, themes and styles and those are what defines what they are in the first place. However the setting is they should still have enough of the elements that make up the idea of Dwarfs, and big beards are one of the most iconic aspects of them, but they've for some reason gone for a style of armour that stops you added them even if you want to.to, and combined with the lack of the usual ornamentation (which is helps show the whole master craftsmen with a proud heritage part of their identity) and such it takes away from the whole idea to a significant level. The setting has various stand ins for other tropes; Orcs in Space, Elfs in Space, Dark Elfs in Space, Halflings in Space, Ogres in Space etc and the setting overall to a heavy extent is based around a "Fantasy in Space" idea, but apparently something wanting the Dwarfs to still be noticeably Dwarf themed is suddenly something that shouldn't happen. If the Eldar weren't some variation of magical pointy-eared humanoids with elaborate elegant designs then you couldn't really say they'd be a very good representation of the Elf Archetype.
Saying the Kharadron Overlords aren't "Fantasy Dwarfs" but rather "Steampunk Dwarfs" is again irrelevant, because again the type of setting or their extra theming doesn't change their fundamental aspects and whether or not they have the traits that make up the concept of Fantasy Dwarfs, which they do. They're not the traditional fantasy setting style of them, but they are still firmly embedded in what they should be; They're short, stoic, stocky heavily-bearded humanoids with a theme of them being miners, engineers and industrialists, fondness for drinking, and have embellishments and ornamentation in-line with what you'd expect from them. They may have swapped their usual homes underground for being in the sky and have the Sky Pirate theming added too, but they are still Dwarfs with their own unique take on the concept. They're the Dwarf archetype with a Steampunk twist.
As for you saying "They tried fantasy Dwarfs in space, it didn't work", that keeps getting repeated for some strange reason, but no, that isn't why they were removed at all.
Quote from Jervis Johnson:
No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.
....
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.
They weren't removed for being "Fantasy Dwarfs in Space". They were removed because they weren't proper Dwarfs and they'd taken the Dwarf archetype and gone for a direction that turned them into a joke.
Oh man you are still debating the same "bland" no theme thing? Over and over again? Repeating the same things doesn't make them more visible or worth debating by the contrary just makes them easier to ignore.
The helmet would probably look better if the visor completely covered the face. I don't think the half visor look is doing the models any favors, and if you think about it miners and scavengers would want full face protection anyway.
We have seen 4 units (excluding the prospectors) to some extent, enough to get an idea of what they're going for in terms of the Kyn themselves. Their vehicles may be another matter, but the Kyn don't look like they have a substantial, unique take on the Dwarf archetype in the same the Kharadron Overlords do with their steampunk-esque style and armoured beard helmets. Instead it's lots of big bulky suits of generic sci-fi armour and little in the way of Dwarf aesthetics. The coat and aviator theming on the Pioneer is good, but underneath it's again that bland armour and it just looks out of place with the clothing.
Grendlesen and to some extent the Ironhead prospectors both feel like a better take on them overall. They both feel a more interesting representation of Sci-fi Dwarfs.
I disagree! I do like the new direction with clean armour, normal beards and more scifi feel. I wouldnt want the old theme being brought back with half-sized biker-dudes... This is soo much better imo!
That being said, the trike-lass in a trenchcoat over her armour do look good. Too good... (will have to get two, to convert one up to a dismounted leader/heroine... )
NAVARRO wrote: Oh man you are still debating the same "bland" no theme thing? Over and over again? Repeating the same things doesn't make them more visible or worth debating by the contrary just makes them easier to ignore.
New models were shown a few days ago, how they look is being discussed. You complaining doesn't add anything.
I'm enjoying the contrast between the soldiers and miners, different aesthetics suit them and the variety is more than welcome.
The full mask looks better than the visor as far as I'm concerned. That said I'll be crossing fingers and looking out for any third party bubble/dome style helmet for a more pulp feel. (I've seen some Intercessors on Dakka somewhere with said bubble helmets and they looked amazing.)
I also forsee some fun bits to be had from the Kharadron line as well, in terms of weapons and more eccentric and ornate helmet style that would fit a character or two. Gunhauler to trike conversion? Somebody more creative than I will surely get it done in a way that looks great!
Just gonna throw it out there that for the month of release, GW should (temporarily) change the name of their magazine to "White Squat" (or similar term of their choice). And one of the figures released later in the cycle should be the legendary commander "The White Squat".
Scrub wrote: I'm enjoying the contrast between the soldiers and miners, different aesthetics suit them and the variety is more than welcome.
The full mask looks better than the visor as far as I'm concerned. That said I'll be crossing fingers and looking out for any third party bubble/dome style helmet for a more pulp feel. (I've seen some Intercessors on Dakka somewhere with said bubble helmets and they looked amazing.)
I also forsee some fun bits to be had from the Kharadron line as well, in terms of weapons and more eccentric and ornate helmet style that would fit a character or two. Gunhauler to trike conversion? Somebody more creative than I will surely get it done in a way that looks great!
Try Bombshell Miniatures they have great bubble helms that fit GSC perfectly (might fit squats well too).
Tyran wrote: The disconnect here is that the Leagues of Votann aren't fantasy Dwarves in space, but a sci fi civilization that happens to be made of dwarves.
I am hyped for the leagues of votann. I like how they are a new faction, but they have enough nods to the past to be nostalgic without being just a rehash of old ideas that didn’t work well last time round. The necromunda lot seem cool too, bit more industrial.
lord_blackfang wrote: Well they're an amalgam of a lot of GW's art style issues: hunchbacked, godawfully thick, especially in the arms, you could almost put a Cawdor torso through those massive sleeves, faction identity for some reason boiled down to an ornate belt buckle that doesn't gel with the rest of the design, and of course those mechanically utterly nonsensical guns.
The lack of faction identity is definitely a big issue. It feels like the models lack unique stylization. They're just bland. I hope the same mistakes aren't made with the leagues of votann
These miniatures seem less bland than the one we've seen from the League.They at least have a callback to the original designs and some Dwarf-like Embellishments.
The Leagues don't seem to have any sort of noticeable theming, they come across as generic sci-fi.
I just don't get what they're doing with them at all. The Lack of proper Dwarf Beards, the decision to give them all big bulky suits of armour where their head is buried inside it and the collar comes up to their chin so you can't even really give them beards if you wanted to, the lack of Dwarf-themed elements or anything like that to add a sense of life and culture to the miniatures, the lack of a distinct styling overall beyond just sci-fi, how they're potentially all amputated, how we've now had 3 different versions of Squats....
No noticeable theming?! They shown us two models so far. Hard to spot a theme from that sample size.
We have seen 4 units (excluding the prospectors) to some extent, enough to get an idea of what they're going for in terms of the Kyn themselves. Their vehicles may be another matter, but the Kyn don't look like they have a substantial, unique take on the Dwarf archetype in the same the Kharadron Overlords do with their steampunk-esque style and armoured beard helmets. Instead it's lots of big bulky suits of generic sci-fi armour and little in the way of Dwarf aesthetics. The coat and aviator theming on the Pioneer is good, but underneath it's again that bland armour and it just looks out of place with the clothing.
Grendlesen and to some extent the Ironhead prospectors both feel like a better take on them overall. They both feel a more interesting representation of Sci-fi Dwarfs.
So it sounds more you like you don’t like what you have seen already. You clearly want fantasy dwarves, but in space. But what we are getting is space dwarves, an new faction that will have their own identity and style. And by the looks of what we have seen, smaller beards.
They tried fantasy dwarves in space early in sending edition and it didn’t work, so badly that they never released them. It’s got to the stage where even fantasy dwarves aren’t that anymore, they are steam punk dwarves. So it doesn’t look like you are getting what you want. But that doesn’t mean they don’t have a theme, or a style, it’s just not one you like.
No, i want the new army that's meant to be the settings representation of the Dwarf archetype to have the elements that make up the Dwarf archetype they're supposed to be and to have their own unique identity for it in the same way the Kharadron Overlords do. You just saying "These are Space Dwarfs, not fantasy Dwarfs in space!" seems as if you're for some reason focusing on the literal "Fantasy" and "Space" aspects which is quite meaningless to the point, as they're the same thing by virtue of being Dwarfs. It sounds like you just don't want Dwarfs to be Dwarfs because it doesn't matter what type of setting it is or what their extra theming involves, there isn't a distinction between a "Fantasy" and ""Space" Dwarf - they're both based on the Dwarf archetype; a set of common traits, themes and styles and those are what defines what they are in the first place. However the setting is they should still have enough of the elements that make up the idea of Dwarfs, and big beards are one of the most iconic aspects of them, but they've for some reason gone for a style of armour that stops you added them even if you want to.to, and combined with the lack of the usual ornamentation (which is helps show the whole master craftsmen with a proud heritage part of their identity) and such it takes away from the whole idea to a significant level. The setting has various stand ins for other tropes; Orcs in Space, Elfs in Space, Dark Elfs in Space, Halflings in Space, Ogres in Space etc and the setting overall to a heavy extent is based around a "Fantasy in Space" idea, but apparently something wanting the Dwarfs to still be noticeably Dwarf themed is suddenly something that shouldn't happen. If the Eldar weren't some variation of magical pointy-eared humanoids with elaborate elegant designs then you couldn't really say they'd be a very good representation of the Elf Archetype.
Saying the Kharadron Overlords aren't "Fantasy Dwarfs" but rather "Steampunk Dwarfs" is again irrelevant, because again the type of setting or their extra theming doesn't change their fundamental aspects and whether or not they have the traits that make up the concept of Fantasy Dwarfs, which they do. They're not the traditional fantasy setting style of them, but they are still firmly embedded in what they should be; They're short, stoic, stocky heavily-bearded humanoids with a theme of them being miners, engineers and industrialists, fondness for drinking, and have embellishments and ornamentation in-line with what you'd expect from them. They may have swapped their usual homes underground for being in the sky and have the Sky Pirate theming added too, but they are still Dwarfs with their own unique take on the concept. They're the Dwarf archetype with a Steampunk twist.
As for you saying "They tried fantasy Dwarfs in space, it didn't work", that keeps getting repeated for some strange reason, but no, that isn't why they were removed at all.
Quote from Jervis Johnson:
No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.
....
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.
They weren't removed for being "Fantasy Dwarfs in Space". They were removed because they weren't proper Dwarfs and they'd taken the Dwarf archetype and gone for a direction that turned them into a joke.
So we’re are back to a beard and a belt buckle again, that’s all you want!
Being a master craftsman in the 41st millennium might not look like you are dripping in horse brasses, it would mean modern clean looking armour that is better built than imperial stuff, sturdy weapons and functional equipment. All there. The beards is most likely a design choice, because when you take a short model and give it a massive beard you wind up with the models looking very similar from the front, ie, all beard. So from what we have seen they have beards for the most part (not the female one obvs) but smaller beards that allow yiu to have other details on the model.
The other races you mention are great examples of how just sticking guns on a “fantasy” archetype doesn’t work. Space ORKS (as they were actually known for a long time) are very different in appearance and theme to fantasy orcs.
The new leagues of votann so far, we know “ They're short, stoic, stocky heavily-bearded humanoids with a theme of them being miners, engineers and industrialists, fondness for drinking,” but you would like more beards (even though it limits design possibilities and the same themes can be portrayed with a rugged shorter beard style, as well as giving a nod to the few who remember the old biker squats fondly) and more horse brasses, because for some reason in 40000 years time that is how you would show off your engineering skills???
Instead of trying to say GW has got the theming wrong just admit that you want them to have bigger beards, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the designs (apart from maybe the miners guns) yiu just aren’t keen on them.
NAVARRO wrote: Oh man you are still debating the same "bland" no theme thing? Over and over again? Repeating the same things doesn't make them more visible or worth debating by the contrary just makes them easier to ignore.
Are you daring to imply news is more than 5% actual news and 95% mindless debate and counter debates and counter counter debates of people debating their previous debate? Heresy!
Mr_Rose wrote: They have the option of a full mask. It looks like the same visor with an additional armour section covering the lower face.
Yeah I quite like those two helmets - I wonder if there will be any options in the kit. They are quite fun- they look like a design concept that didn't make the cut for the full range but would work as an offshoot. I think they could be fun to kit bash with kharadron and probably the Votann kits when they arrive. In the meantime I might pick one set up to try out paint schemes for the Kin.
We have seen 4 units (excluding the prospectors) to some extent, enough to get an idea of what they're going for in terms of the Kyn themselves. Their vehicles may be another matter, but the Kyn don't look like they have a substantial, unique take on the Dwarf archetype in the same the Kharadron Overlords do with their steampunk-esque style and armoured beard helmets. Instead it's lots of big bulky suits of generic sci-fi armour and little in the way of Dwarf aesthetics. The coat and aviator theming on the Pioneer is good, but underneath it's again that bland armour and it just looks out of place with the clothing.
Grendlesen and to some extent the Ironhead prospectors both feel like a better take on them overall. They both feel a more interesting representation of Sci-fi Dwarfs.
I disagree! I do like the new direction with clean armour, normal beards and more scifi feel. I wouldnt want the old theme being brought back with half-sized biker-dudes... This is soo much better imo!
That being said, the trike-lass in a trenchcoat over her armour do look good. Too good... (will have to get two, to convert one up to a dismounted leader/heroine... )
Totally agree - I found Grendleson to be a bit of cliché and I'm so happy with how GW went somewhere new and fresh. I was thinking n the back of a "the squats will get a killteam eventually" rumour - we might see a Pioneers team on foot like scouts? Could be cool with portable tech and those long coats.
Not just the cloning (and super cloning without negative side effects or limitations on the genepool, because whatever. Necrontyr were just dummies, I guess), but
Such was the craft of the First Ancestors that even Kin souls are engineered - they shine more dimly against the tides of the warp than their distant human cousins, with no evidence of uncontrolled psychic mutation
what? Just... what?
'In the ancient past, someone entirely solved the one huge ginormous pressing problem of life, souls and the warp in the entire 40k universe.'
Job done guys.
Everything the Emperor ever did was pointless, because the squat engineers solved the psychic awakening of the species. No bigs, they just fixed it.
Fall of the Eldar? Nah. Should've gone with cloning. No problems, just turn down your glow.
Not just the cloning (and super cloning without negative side effects or limitations on the genepool, because whatever. Necrontyr were just dummies, I guess), but
Such was the craft of the First Ancestors that even Kin souls are engineered - they shine more dimly against the tides of the warp than their distant human cousins, with no evidence of uncontrolled psychic mutation
what? Just... what?
'In the ancient past, someone entirely solved the one huge ginormous pressing problem of life, souls and the warp in the entire 40k universe.'
Job done guys.
Everything the Emperor ever did was pointless, because the squat engineers solved the psychic awakening of the species. No bigs, they just fixed it.
Fall of the Eldar? Nah. Should've gone with cloning. No problems, just turn down your glow.
Hasn't that been how Dark Eldar do it though? If they die, their mates bring them back to the Haemonculi they bought insurance with.
I rather like the new background. It shines a light on humanity’s capabilities before Old Night. Not suited to a particular atmosphere, but still want to give it the old British Plundering? Just…tinker with your kiddo’s genetic make up so they are suited to the atmosphere etc.
Which also suggests the ancestors of Felinids were indeed just Space Weebs who wanted Cat Girls and it all got out of hand.
Not just the cloning (and super cloning without negative side effects or limitations on the genepool, because whatever. Necrontyr were just dummies, I guess), but
Such was the craft of the First Ancestors that even Kin souls are engineered - they shine more dimly against the tides of the warp than their distant human cousins, with no evidence of uncontrolled psychic mutation
what? Just... what?
'In the ancient past, someone entirely solved the one huge ginormous pressing problem of life, souls and the warp in the entire 40k universe.'
Job done guys.
Everything the Emperor ever did was pointless, because the squat engineers solved the psychic awakening of the species. No bigs, they just fixed it.
Fall of the Eldar? Nah. Should've gone with cloning. No problems, just turn down your glow.
Hasn't that been how Dark Eldar do it though? If they die, their mates bring them back to the Haemonculi they bought insurance with.
Not exactly. Dark eldar do... something to supress their psychic abilities and to avoid getting eaten they stuff their souls back into a copy of their own bodies. Dark eldar Bob is always Bob and every frantic murder-urge is to maintain his Bob-self in the face of a very hungry Entropy.
The squats apparently had the foresight to make themselves look unappetizing to the warp, stop uncontrolled psyker shenanigans from ever happening AND have clones with endless genetic diversity because SuperTech. (usually the trope with clones is genetic stagnation). They've basically solved the setting.
Sure, they solved the setting if one ignores the endless hungry hive fleets, the unbelievable advanced and pissed off Necrons, or the omnipresent Ork infestations.
At most they solved Chaos, except Chaos has only really been a problem for humanity and the Eldar, with everyone else being several degrees of resistant if not outright immune.
Tyran wrote: Sure, they solved the setting if one ignores the endless hungry hive fleets, the unbelievable advanced and pissed off Necrons, or the omnipresent Ork infestations.
At most they solved Chaos, except Chaos has only really been a problem for humanity and the Eldar, with everyone else being several degrees of resistant if not outright immune.
I've never seen someone dismiss the central conflict of the setting with 'but the normal, purely physical wars are the real problem' before. That's novel.
Also, necrons. Are they advanced? Not even 'unbelievably advanced,' are they even advanced at all anymore? Or are they stuck with some decent tech that pretty much everyone can match now? Tau can blow up daemons (and other opponents of the war in heaven) with chunks of super-fast iron, and have energy weapons and ships that can match necron tech. Humanity isn't quite there, but is close enough (and can rip open the warp if insane enough, which the necrons can't really deal with).
The squats, by comparison can safely make themselves psychically active, have warp travel ["only those with the appropriate psychically active cloneskein can activate the so-called barrier-tech the Kin employ to access the empyrean,"] two things the necrons have never, ever managed. And take a gander at that last image, of a planet being drawn into some sort of Stellar Forge array. Necrons, eh? Piffle.
Tyran wrote: Sure, they solved the setting if one ignores the endless hungry hive fleets, the unbelievable advanced and pissed off Necrons, or the omnipresent Ork infestations.
At most they solved Chaos, except Chaos has only really been a problem for humanity and the Eldar, with everyone else being several degrees of resistant if not outright immune.
Well, this clearly isn’t the whole of the thing.
Lose your Ancestor Core, lose your past and future. Even if you switch to regular baby making, your entire society is going to be heavily disrupted, as you’re down to rolling the old genetic dice, and hoping for the best.
And that’s without any other downside that may be yet to arrive.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I rather like the new background. It shines a light on humanity’s capabilities before Old Night. Not suited to a particular atmosphere, but still want to give it the old British Plundering? Just…tinker with your kiddo’s genetic make up so they are suited to the atmosphere etc.
Which also suggests the ancestors of Felinids were indeed just Space Weebs who wanted Cat Girls and it all got out of hand.
Man I am loving the direction they’re going with Kin. Can’t wait to see more!
I've never seen someone dismiss the central conflict of the setting with 'but the normal, purely physical wars are the real problem' before. That's novel.
Well if GW wanted it to be the central conflict of the setting, they shouldn't have included 3 purely physical factions, 2 of them with a "they win when the real hive fleet arrives/when all the tomb worlds wake up" theme.
And specially when one of them literally has an "I turn off the Warp" button.
Or you know, the Leagues of Votann who join the majority of the factions in the setting that don't particularly care about Chaos.
Someone was complaining that the Kin appear to be more "advanced" than Necrons in some aspects, but , well, Necrons have been asleep for millions of years and the rest of the galaxy hasn't.
I think some aren't seeing the forest for the trees. In every faction there's some kind of "advancement", but there's also grave costs they pay. That's what makes the setting "grimdark".
Every faction that seems to burn brightest for a time falls hard (see: Necrons, Eldar, and currently Imperium of Man).
I think some people are being a little overreactive, because we don't even know yet what their involvements were during Old Night, The Heresy or even why they dissapeared during the Age of the Imperium. We don't know their relationship with Chaos, nor with the other Races of the Galaxy. Heck we technically don't know why they are seperate from the Imperium yet.
I'm kind of dissapointed on one thing though, and that is that it kind of removes the Living Ancestor thing. I might be in the minority, but I liked the idea that the Psychic Gene was inherited in every Squat and that it manifested in old age. The new fluff kind of hints that's not the case anymore.
Segersgia wrote: I think some people are being a little overreactive, because we don't even know yet what their involvements were during Old Night, The Heresy or even why they dissapeared during the Age of the Imperium. We don't know their relationship with Chaos, nor with the other Races of the Galaxy. Heck we technically don't know why they are seperate from the Imperium yet.
I'm kind of dissapointed on one thing though, and that is that it kind of removes the Living Ancestor thing. I might be in the minority, but I liked the idea that the Psychic Gene was inherited in every Squat and that it manifested in old age. The new fluff kind of hints that's not the case anymore.
Maybe their psykers (or navigators) will be called living ancestors, because when they are cloned they use some more ancient human DNA to enable it or something.
Plus you are correct in that we've barely scratched the surface of fluff for the Kin.
I think you guys are forgetting; the Emperor didn’t want to make humanity “immune” to chaos - he wanted to defeat chaos utterly and return the warp to its state of calm before the old ones started screwing around, when the sufficiently skilled could walk between worlds without needing either ship or webway. For that, he needed a united, educated, rational, and strongly psychic humanity. The dulling of the kin is very much not that, whether or not you think his ambitions to have been foolish hubris.
Segersgia wrote: I think some people are being a little overreactive, because we don't even know yet what their involvements were during Old Night, The Heresy or even why they dissapeared during the Age of the Imperium. We don't know their relationship with Chaos, nor with the other Races of the Galaxy. Heck we technically don't know why they are seperate from the Imperium yet.
I'm kind of dissapointed on one thing though, and that is that it kind of removes the Living Ancestor thing. I might be in the minority, but I liked the idea that the Psychic Gene was inherited in every Squat and that it manifested in old age. The new fluff kind of hints that's not the case anymore.
Maybe their psykers (or navigators) will be called living ancestors, because when they are cloned they use some more ancient human DNA to enable it or something.
Plus you are correct in that we've barely scratched the surface of fluff for the Kin.
Or maybe the Living Ancestors are just direct clones of the actual First Ancestors?
Mr_Rose wrote: I think you guys are forgetting; the Emperor didn’t want to make humanity “immune” to chaos - he wanted to defeat chaos utterly and return the warp to its state of calm before the old ones started screwing around, when the sufficiently skilled could walk between worlds without needing either ship or webway. For that, he needed a united, educated, rational, and strongly psychic humanity. The dulling of the kin is very much not that, whether or not you think his ambitions to have been foolish hubris.
I haven't heard that specific interpretation of the Emperor's plan -- can you tell me where I can find this fluff?
A mystery involving them being artificially manufactured beings designed by another mysterious higher level being and created with souls that have a high level of warp resistance and the ability to colonize space? Sounds a lot like the Men of Stone.
Fascinating little article. I like the idea of all that, plus the artwork in that article is extremely cool.
The cloning is very interesting, makes sense from an ancient humanity idea. If you are planning to colonise the stars, you'd want to be able to give future generations certain traits that will benefit them in the cold darkness of the stars.
Very interested to see how the artwork transcribes into the models..
I'm guessing the Kin's weakness will be their AI gods/ancestors. Their veneration of them suggests a degree of dependence on them.
Perhaps as their ancestor cores die/grow slower/go insane, they have fewer cloneskeins available over time. Perhaps only the most common get made, with the more specialized ones becoming rarer and rarer to the point of going extinct. Maybe Living Ancestors are psychic and long lived cloneskeins that virtually stopped being made, so any survivors really are like ancestors from the distant past. While the existence of Necromunda Squats shows the possibility of natural reproduction of at least the "baseline" template, perhaps the more specialized stuff does not breed true and requires this genetic engineering, which may be DAoT tech and beyond the ability of current Kin to understand.
NAVARRO wrote: The different faces types and expressions is amazing there. Very Fresh ideas and I love it!
Yeah its like some of the recent Kharadron character art - looks fantastic! Very atmospheric and the art of the ship/massive machine looks amazing.
Loving all this - the idea that a race associated with making/engineering was made/engineered to survive/thrive in the environment is brilliant.
I'm betting Living Ancestors are still a thing and there will be some great stuff around the different Cloneskiens. So many questions around their history and have they been absent or what?
Mr_Rose wrote: I think you guys are forgetting; the Emperor didn’t want to make humanity “immune” to chaos - he wanted to defeat chaos utterly and return the warp to its state of calm before the old ones started screwing around, when the sufficiently skilled could walk between worlds without needing either ship or webway. For that, he needed a united, educated, rational, and strongly psychic humanity. The dulling of the kin is very much not that, whether or not you think his ambitions to have been foolish hubris.
I haven't heard that specific interpretation of the Emperor's plan -- can you tell me where I can find this fluff?
Wasn't it back in Realms of Chaos, where the Emperor wanted to evolve humanity into a fully psychic species? Extra dramatic irony that he now needs to devour psykers to stay alive, and the Ecclesiarchy acting 'in his name' hates witches.
I haven't read much of the Horus Heresy series though, so it may well have been retconned there.
NAVARRO wrote: The different faces types and expressions is amazing there. Very Fresh ideas and I love it!
Yeah its like some of the recent Kharadron character art - looks fantastic! Very atmospheric and the art of the ship/massive machine looks amazing.
Loving all this - the idea that a race associated with making/engineering was made/engineered to survive/thrive in the environment is brilliant.
I'm betting Living Ancestors are still a thing and there will be some great stuff around the different Cloneskiens. So many questions around their history and have they been absent or what?
Completely agree. So far, it seems like they're really knocked the ball out of the park on this one. This might be the first codex in many years that I'd be prepared to purchase for the background alone. Doesn't hurt that both of the models revealed so far have been fantastic.
I really like how the studio appears to be walking the line between technological mastery and fatal civilizational flaw. And honestly, it's just refreshing to see a human faction that's so distinct from the Imperium. Definitely didn't realize how much I'd missed that until now.
Aren't the Leagues of Votann just Necrontyr +1?
It would have been damned useful for the Necrontyr if they had that sort of genetic engineering with no downsides.
The cloneskein technology sounds an awful lot like the technology the Emperor used to create space marine geneseed and/or Thunderwarriors (who were also engineered to be psychically resistant too).
I dunno, didn't the Tau evolve crazy fast? Sounds like some bit of genetic shenanigans at play there.
Also, are the Votann dependent on cloning vats to reproduce, or can they do it the normal way? Could be an interesting distinction between them and the Squats in the case of the former.
Tyran wrote: Genetic engineering is not new to the setting. I mean, pretty much everyone except the Necrons, Chaos Daemons and Tau are engineered species.
There is speculation that one of the Eldar factions engineered the Tau to make them resistant to Chaos, and to make sure that they followed the Ethereals.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Aren't the Leagues of Votann just Necrontyr +1?
It would have been damned useful for the Necrontyr if they had that sort of genetic engineering with no downsides.
The Votann are a techy race too lead by AI.
We only have a single article to go by for now. Also GW shmucks at all their early drafts of background. It's the later follow ups that usually flesh things out. I wouldn't be surprised if all the cloning has made them mentally deranged, the sort of typical dwarf trope, that they live by obscure conservative rules and traditions that make no sense from an outsiders perspective. Also as I understand it, the cloning only happend 10.000 years ago and shaped their genetic foundations, with certain traits that are being passed by regular bonking, probably inbreeding bonking. That alone will come with all sorts of issues. That isn't too different from what the Tau did by selective breeding. So this will likely be their theme: Once great people, but created by a terrible flaw, now drift through space guided by their own mental challenges and their increasingly dementing AIs that they venerate as infailable gods. There will probably also be strife among the AIs, the casts and likely certain "Skiens" that are deemed intollerable by many, to justify Squat on Squat matches. So far, every faction in 40K got it's Grimdark at some point, even if we are running around with a staggering amount of Mary Sues.
I am pretty sure we are going to see the dark side of the League with the next Codex
while this time they are the new shiny good guys that have everything, the next Codex will give hints that not everything is good (as we had with Tau)
kodos wrote: I am pretty sure we are going to see the dark side of the League with the next Codex
while this time they are the new shiny good guys that have everything, the next Codex will give hints that not everything is good (as we had with Tau)
That's kind of backwards though, isn't it?
Wouldn't it save the community a lot of headache if they just had the dark bits in the current codex now instead of inserting them later in response to complaints that 40k isn't Grimdark anymore?
I can't believe that I am genuinely exited about bloody squats! I basically never like dwarf archetypes and I always thought that squatting the original silly bearded bikers was well deserved, but this new take has really got me intrigued. It actually seems to broaden the setting, explore the history of the humanity, and insert some cool old school scifi concepts. And the look is pretty solid too, albeit I like the new Necromunda miner squats more than the 40K ones. But this is like a breath of fresh air to the moldy setting that has gotten far too small and self referential.
I'm interested to see how Squats treat other races. I know it's been stated that they have traded with the Demiurge before, but that might be an extremely limited thing.
I somehow doubt that they would allow other races, even normal humans, to have more than the slightest access to their ships. Their homeworlds? Well, perhaps the minor colonies, but nothing mainstream.
kodos wrote: I am pretty sure we are going to see the dark side of the League with the next Codex
while this time they are the new shiny good guys that have everything, the next Codex will give hints that not everything is good (as we had with Tau)
In the first two lore articles alone they've explained that they're a tech-worshippers who solve problems by asking computer-orbs questions and then waiting 100 years for an answer, and that they employ eugenics.
If you're taking them as shiny good guys, I have questions.
Voss wrote: There is a practical limit to the number of armies running around, and 'This one, but chaos' is one of the most boring answers possible.
If you absolutely have to, throw a model or two into a renegade/traitor guard squad.
I think people want or think of chaos votann because there were chaos squats and chaos dwarves, so if they are bringing them back then bring the chaos ones too.
I for am not bothered and agree it would be lazy. Let’s just enjoys squats being back.
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Crimson wrote: I can't believe that I am genuinely exited about bloody squats! I basically never like dwarf archetypes and I always thought that squatting the original silly bearded bikers was well deserved, but this new take has really got me intrigued. It actually seems to broaden the setting, explore the history of the humanity, and insert some cool old school scifi concepts. And the look is pretty solid too, albeit I like the new Necromunda miner squats more than the 40K ones. But this is like a breath of fresh air to the moldy setting that has gotten far too small and self referential.
Apart for. The bit where yiu don’t like old squats I agree whole heartedly.
For chaos squats, I believe Dwarfs in Warhammer Fantasy were either highly resistant or immune to the warp, Chaos Dwarfs usually just wanted to join, to mess around with Chaos stuff for their inventions, but I want chaos guard and admech first.
I’m sure if someone wanted chaos Votann you will be able to convert to their hearts content and run it under some version of normal Votann rules. You can run a perfectly adequate traitor guard army using normal guard rules with a touch of counts as and some conversion work.
TheBestBucketHead wrote: For chaos squats, I believe Dwarfs in Warhammer Fantasy were either highly resistant or immune to the warp, Chaos Dwarfs usually just wanted to join, to mess around with Chaos stuff for their inventions, but I want chaos guard and admech first.
Highly resistant, since non-Dawi-Zharr Chaos Dwarfs did exist, but very rarely. The Actual Chaos Dwarfs never followed the big four, but a seperate entity called Hashut. They kind of made a "deal with the devil" in order to survive the coming of the first great chaos incursion of the Warhammer Fantasy world.
I could however see a Votann get corrupted by chaos and the Kin worshipping it regardless.
I do agree that Chaos-Kin is a little to early to wishlist as a faction, but atleast speculating on it won't do any harm. There are major factions in the lore that deserve a codex before this ever becomes a reality.
There was originally chaos squats but they appeared when there was chaos everything [gsc was another]. Want to convert them up? Absolutely fine . But its a dull idea that every thing just becomes an option for chaos- chaos necrons, chaos Tau, chaos Nids.. Absolutely as personal project army but chaos has plenty of other toys, plus that lore seems to fairly strongly imply they are designed to be highly resistant to chaos.
Anyway I was thinking about the Cloneskiens - they act a little like elder paths enabling specialism through genes rather than the eldar training. So maybe we might see different units have different in game abilities/stats? It also might have societal problems - individual Kin born and therefore stuck unspecific roles within the culture. Very interesting possibilities ..
I think that what has been demonstrated so far in this thread is that most people can't spell 'skein'
Jokes aside, very interested to see where they take the fluff. The art is gorgeous, and the gold decorative bits on one of the new portraits has that hint of dwarfishness that was missing a little from the others.
Segersgia wrote: I do agree that Chaos-Kin is a little to early to wishlist as a faction, but atleast speculating on it won't do any harm. There are major factions in the lore that deserve a codex before this ever becomes a reality.
It feels like we've skipped right to the endgame in this discussion, taking an interest in Chaos Squats to mean dedicated models and a codex.
I'd argue the possibility of Chaos corruption in the fluff is plenty good for all kinds of people who want a lore friendly Chaos Squat in their Kill Team, or Cultist squad, or anything along those lines. If Squats are now being mary sued into another faction unbothered by the warp is not helping the setting, in my opinion. It removes an option for both stories and models for no good reason.
So I hope the actual fluff is going to be a little more nuanced than that article made it out to be. Not that I actually expect today's writers to do nuance.
Rakoun wrote: I think that what has been demonstrated so far in this thread is that most people can't spell 'skein'
How hard can it be? I before e, except after k, right?
Mr_Rose wrote: They have the option of a full mask. It looks like the same visor with an additional armour section covering the lower face.
Yeah I quite like those two helmets - I wonder if there will be any options in the kit. They are quite fun- they look like a design concept that didn't make the cut for the full range but would work as an offshoot. I think they could be fun to kit bash with kharadron and probably the Votann kits when they arrive. In the meantime I might pick one set up to try out paint schemes for the Kin.
(...)
I am planning to use Kharadron, Prospectors and Votann (and primaris for some weapons) for kitbashing my Squats. Good times ahead!
Holy crap. There are times when I mutter darkly about GW and it's practices, but these new squats / Votanni are extremely awesome. I've got to say this looks aesthetically closer to the new Votann style which is interesting.
I would love there to be a cross over onto the leagues from the necromunda stuff but I don’t think there’s any precedent for it, or am I wrong, please tell me I am wrong.
(And I know, no precedent doesn’t mean it can’t happen).
Andykp wrote: I would love there to be a cross over onto the leagues from the necromunda stuff but I don’t think there’s any precedent for it, or am I wrong, please tell me I am wrong.
(And I know, no precedent doesn’t mean it can’t happen).
Theres a precedent of some specialist games units getting added to the main 2 GW core games?
I feel like it would have been better with a central canopy integrated into the body than just a head sticking out in the middle like on Terminators and Dreadnoughts though. This sort of thing:
That style of mech / armoured suit isn't something that there's much of in the setting, whereas what they've gone for feels a little uninspired at this point.
I feel like it would have been better with a central canopy integrated into the body than just a head sticking out in the middle like on Terminators and Dreadnoughts though. This sort of thing:
That's what I was thinking too. The head sticking out of the chest doesn't look right.
Andykp wrote: I would love there to be a cross over onto the leagues from the necromunda stuff but I don’t think there’s any precedent for it, or am I wrong, please tell me I am wrong.
(And I know, no precedent doesn’t mean it can’t happen).
The yellow helmet is all Necromunda, but the suit's colors are suspiciously close to the showcase colors on the 40k Squats. One might wonder if GW is trying to tell us something.
Necromunda doesn't really have a history of crossover models, though. But there's always the option to just use the Necromunda Squats as stand ins in your 40k army. There's bound to be a unit that's a close enough fit.
I feel like it would have been better with a central canopy integrated into the body than just a head sticking out in the middle like on Terminators and Dreadnoughts though. This sort of thing:
That's what I was thinking too. The head sticking out of the chest doesn't look right.
I'm not a fan of the helmeted Dreadnought designs so I don't find this Squat eggsiting either, but eh, it's firmly established as a 40k thing. May as well make 40k models with 40k designs instead of drawing on other sci-fi. Especially with how the new Squats have invited comments of being generic sci-fi.
Andykp wrote: I would love there to be a cross over onto the leagues from the necromunda stuff but I don’t think there’s any precedent for it, or am I wrong, please tell me I am wrong.
I feel like it would have been better with a central canopy integrated into the body than just a head sticking out in the middle like on Terminators and Dreadnoughts though. This sort of thing:
That's what I was thinking too. The head sticking out of the chest doesn't look right.
I'm not a fan of the helmeted Dreadnought designs so I don't find this Squat eggsiting either, but eh, it's firmly established as a 40k thing. May as well make 40k models with 40k designs instead of drawing on other sci-fi. Especially with how the new Squats have invited comments of being generic sci-fi.
It's something commonly seen on Imperial designs and not something that's really part of other non-Imperial armies though. They don't have to follow Imperial Aesthetics.
lord_blackfang wrote: Brace yourselves, everyone and their dog scrambling to do non IP infringing space dwarf miners before any plastics hit the shelves
Tbf, I'm willing to entertain the possibility these were supposed to be Deep Rock Galactic based, and the Squat look is just a coincidence. Or they got changed at the last minute.
Andykp wrote: I would love there to be a cross over onto the leagues from the necromunda stuff but I don’t think there’s any precedent for it, or am I wrong, please tell me I am wrong.
I feel like it would have been better with a central canopy integrated into the body than just a head sticking out in the middle like on Terminators and Dreadnoughts though. This sort of thing:
That's what I was thinking too. The head sticking out of the chest doesn't look right.
I'm not a fan of the helmeted Dreadnought designs so I don't find this Squat eggsiting either, but eh, it's firmly established as a 40k thing. May as well make 40k models with 40k designs instead of drawing on other sci-fi. Especially with how the new Squats have invited comments of being generic sci-fi.
It's something commonly seen on Imperial designs and not something that's really part of other non-Imperial armies though. They don't have to follow Imperial Aesthetics.
Squat and Imperial technology share their ancestry and it doesn't look like the new Squats are much more into innovation than the Imperium, what with that whole ancestor core worship. As much as it makes sense from an artistic point of view to give Squats a distinct faction identity, by the fluff there should be visible overlap. When it comes down to it a lot of Imperial technology is just skullified Dark Age technology. It may look different on the surface, but structure and inner workings wouldn't be different, really.
Yeah I would prefer it took design cues from older Imperial tech (which this does) than it looking totally different. They're recreating the whole lore and feel of this faction while simultaneously bringing them back from the dead. It's important to establish that they were once human and share similar weaponry and armour whilst also looking unique.
The more I look at that power suit, the more i think: Original Terminator Models and Definite Karman Influence.
It not only has the sweeping shoulder designs of the Saturnine suit (moved over a couple of inches), but the bulky-yet-sleek retro look of the Karman speeders. Yes, liking these more and more.
Sacredroach wrote: The more I look at that power suit, the more i think: Original Terminator Models and Definite Karman Influence.
It not only has the sweeping shoulder designs of the Saturnine suit (moved over a couple of inches), but the bulky-yet-sleek retro look of the Karman speeders. Yes, liking these more and more.
Retro-futuristic Dieselpunk-esque Dwarfs that evoke classic 80s sci-fi novel covers feels like a pretty cool direction and a nice contrast the the Mechanicus' more Pulp sci-fi / Raygun gothic style. Just a bit of a shame about the lack of much of the Dwarf side of things really.
I'm wondering if the Squats/LoV separation is a bit like comparing Craftworld Eldar to Dark Eldar. Same race, but slightly differing tech and traditions. Squats breeding in the normal fashion and simply making/improving superior versions of imperial technically as it is easier to obtain, while still having a bit of the LoV tech mixed in.
It would be like New York work crews in rural Amish Pennsylvania using both local instruments and vintage 80's power tools/ bulldozers. Less advanced than NY standards, but may as well be aliens to the locals.
Yeah.. not sure about it, not sure on the head specifically. Really hoping we see Kin exo suits soon since they've shown the new version of the trike, the exo suit is the other iconic unit that should be included in the update. Would make. nice foil to contrast this and the Votann Exos in the same week.
silverstu wrote: Yeah.. not sure about it, not sure on the head specifically. Really hoping we see Kin exo suits soon since they've shown the new version of the trike, the exo suit is the other iconic unit that should be included in the update. Would make. nice foil to contrast this and the Votann Exos in the same week.
I think we've already seen some of them in the background of the Votann art and in the Kyn head art shown last week.
silverstu wrote: Yeah.. not sure about it, not sure on the head specifically. Really hoping we see Kin exo suits soon since they've shown the new version of the trike, the exo suit is the other iconic unit that should be included in the update. Would make. nice foil to contrast this and the Votann Exos in the same week.
I'm beginning to wonder if they're peeling the old army apart and putting different aspects in different bins Votann gets trikes (antigrav because Dark Age tech), Necro Squats get Exosuits.
They mentioned during the stream that the Necromunda gang isn't part of the Votann army (which is consistent with other necromunda gangs), so... how big is this divide going to get?
Something is off scale wise with the Dreadnought. It seems to me to look smaller than a SM dreadnought. I think that is a 50mm base. It also seems very lightly armed for a dreadnought. I'm willing to be it's only the size of a SM Centurion.
cuda1179 wrote: Something is off scale wise with the Dreadnought. It seems to me to look smaller than a SM dreadnought. I think that is a 50mm base. It also seems very lightly armed for a dreadnought. I'm willing to be it's only the size of a SM Centurion.
Well, yeah. Its should be lightly armed 'for a dreadnought' because... it isn't. It's not a dedicated warmachine, it's a refitted mining suit for a small group of miners. Different game, different expectations.
That said, it has a fist and 'seismic crusher' which presumably is the launcher on the back that fires some sort of shells, and the heavy flamer or bolter. Which probably makes it a little too good, to be honest.
cuda1179 wrote: Something is off scale wise with the Dreadnought. It seems to me to look smaller than a SM dreadnought. I think that is a 50mm base. It also seems very lightly armed for a dreadnought. I'm willing to be it's only the size of a SM Centurion.
silverstu wrote: Yeah.. not sure about it, not sure on the head specifically. Really hoping we see Kin exo suits soon since they've shown the new version of the trike, the exo suit is the other iconic unit that should be included in the update. Would make. nice foil to contrast this and the Votann Exos in the same week.
I'm beginning to wonder if they're peeling the old army apart and putting different aspects in different bins Votann gets trikes (antigrav because Dark Age tech), Necro Squats get Exosuits.
They mentioned during the stream that the Necromunda gang isn't part of the Votann army (which is consistent with other necromunda gangs), so... how big is this divide going to get?
I think they are doing more school vibes with the Necromunda Squats but they have shown what looks like Exo suits in the artwork in the "What is a Votann" article. Looks like they did a bunch of concepts at the start of the project to bring back the squats - they went with the Votann concepts but picked up the miners for Necromunda. Good to have the variety [and I wonder if there are demiurg concepts as well], but I much prefer the Votann designs so far.
silverstu wrote: Yeah.. not sure about it, not sure on the head specifically. Really hoping we see Kin exo suits soon since they've shown the new version of the trike, the exo suit is the other iconic unit that should be included in the update. Would make. nice foil to contrast this and the Votann Exos in the same week.
I'm beginning to wonder if they're peeling the old army apart and putting different aspects in different bins Votann gets trikes (antigrav because Dark Age tech), Necro Squats get Exosuits.
They mentioned during the stream that the Necromunda gang isn't part of the Votann army (which is consistent with other necromunda gangs), so... how big is this divide going to get?
and I wonder if there are demiurg concepts as well]
The Leagues are quite clearly based around the piece of concept art that was made for the Demiurg years ago.
very interested where they take the lore for these guys. The models look great so far - makes me want to put together a space faring/comet mining army.
Voss wrote: That said, it has a fist and 'seismic crusher' which presumably is the launcher on the back that fires some sort of shells, and the heavy flamer or bolter. Which probably makes it a little too good, to be honest.
Nothing quite says "Mining Equipment" like a rapid fire .75 cal mass reactive explosive mini-missile launcher.
Voss wrote: That said, it has a fist and 'seismic crusher' which presumably is the launcher on the back that fires some sort of shells, and the heavy flamer or bolter. Which probably makes it a little too good, to be honest.
Nothing quite says "Mining Equipment" like a rapid fire .75 cal mass reactive explosive mini-missile launcher.
Yes, I know it's a refit, but still.
Not sure they’ve been referred to as competent miners yet?
Enthusiastic, sure. And what’s the point in honking great suits of armour if not to let you get silly?
Warhammer Community wrote: The Leagues of Votann are still a few months out from making first tabletop contact with the rest of the 41st Millennium, but after learning about the Ancestor Cores and the cloneskeins, we’re all agog for the main course – the guns.
As with more or less everything else in the Leagues, the collected technological knowledge of the Kin is contained within the Votann. These ancient minds are vast repositories of weapon schematics that would have just about every member of the Adeptus Mechanicus weighing up the merits of becoming a heretek. The Kin, you see, are sitting on a closely guarded network of functioning STCs – a fact reflected across their entire armoury.
An armoury which, mark you, they are perfectly permitted to improve over time. The Kin may move slowly, but they’re not stuck in technological stasis like some factions we could mention. Their engineers – called Brôkhyrs – command the auto-foundries of each Kin hold from their personal A.N-vyl terminals. But what are they forging?
From the Autoch-pattern bolter to the Etacarn plasma gun, many Kin weapons bear superficial similarities to Imperial weapons, but they’re superior in every respect. There’s a clear shared ancestry between the bolt revolver and bolt shotgun and the bolt weapons of the Adeptus Astartes, but Kin weapons simply work better and hit harder.
Then there are items like the volkanite disintegrators, which use technology since lost to the Imperium, or ion technology, which is proscribed by the Adeptus Mechanicus. That’s their loss – the T’au Empire certainly seemed to appreciate being taught how to harness it…
All these weapons are supported by smart tech integrated into Kin battlegear. The haptic utility nerve transmission recalibrator modules – HunTR for short – interface with their neural augmetics to establish a feedback loop between firearms and their users. This system projects minute gravitational pulses to maintain a stable firing platform even while running at full pelt – or zooming along on a flying trike.
The Leagues don’t just fight at range, either. The Kin recognise the need for hand-to-hand engagements – especially in the face of swarms of Orks or Tyranids occupying a perfectly good mineral-rich asteroid – and their melee weaponry is similarly high-tech. They make substantial use of plasma fields either to augment blades or extend them, while concussion weapons like hammers and mauls mount mass drivers to really make an impact.
Believe it or not, there’s still a heap of fresh info to come for the Leagues of Votann, which we’ll be dripping out over the next few months. Sign up for our newsletter to get all the info right as it’s published.
Warhammer Community wrote:Then there are items like the volkanite disintegrators, which use technology since lost to the Imperium, or ion technology, which is proscribed by the Adeptus Mechanicus. That’s their loss – the T’au Empire certainly seemed to appreciate being taught how to harness it…
Demiurge confirmed? Certainly some kind of relationship between the Leagues and Tau.
Warhammer Community wrote:Then there are items like the volkanite disintegrators, which use technology since lost to the Imperium, or ion technology, which is proscribed by the Adeptus Mechanicus. That’s their loss – the T’au Empire certainly seemed to appreciate being taught how to harness it…
Demiurge confirmed? Certainly some kind of relationship between the Leagues and Tau.
I'm betting that the Demiurg, are like the Necromunda Squats, in being an offshoot from the Leagues. The old Squat background had the Engineers Guild. Maybe the Demiurg are the new revamped version of that, or something like a trader subfaction that goes out and mines and trades with other races.
Votann guns are pretty cool, I don't see any that would need the round to teleport multiple times inside the gun for it to work, unlike the Ash Wastes squats' guns.
Viable mechanics aside, it seems like bolt shotguns are a bit redundant if you can already mass produce bolters. Necromunda bolt rounds were a stop gap measure when you are trying to bump up lethality but only have a simple tube.
And revolvers seem a bit limiting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also their engineers are bro’s? Really? As an engineer can I be a bit outraged on the behalf of the Kin?
zedmeister wrote: Glad to see the old lore that the Ion weapons were an ancient STC that were probably traded to the T'au
That was the Demiurg that were originally written as trading that tech with the Tau. So there's probably going to be some link between the Leagues and the Demiurg. It's not the first time that GW has mentioned the Demiurg and the Leagues of Votann in the same article.
Warhammer Community wrote:Then there are items like the volkanite disintegrators, which use technology since lost to the Imperium, or ion technology, which is proscribed by the Adeptus Mechanicus. That’s their loss – the T’au Empire certainly seemed to appreciate being taught how to harness it…
Demiurge confirmed? Certainly some kind of relationship between the Leagues and Tau.
Demirug all-but-confirmed. Suck it haters, I told you so.
Same. And it mentioned their "A.N-vyl terminals" (yeah anvil, so obvious), and how they are used to command the auto-foundries of each Kin hold. Sounds like a bunch of 3D printers/nano-fabricators to me.
I'm wondering whether their Votann cores will be the weakness that prevents the Kin from becoming total high tech gods and getting to Clarketech like the Necrons. Maybe the slowdown of the cores means production and/or research/download of new tech is throttled.
There’s also the eternal issue of STC reliance. You’re good at following instructions - but not necessarily innovation or problem solving.
Except the article also literally says
An armoury which, mark you, they are perfectly permitted to improve over time. The Kin may move slowly, but they’re not stuck in technological stasis like some factions we could mention.
Same. And it mentioned their "A.N-vyl terminals" (yeah anvil, so obvious), and how they are used to command the auto-foundries of each Kin hold. Sounds like a bunch of 3D printers/nano-fabricators to me.
I'm wondering whether their Votann cores will be the weakness that prevents the Kin from becoming total high tech gods and getting to Clarketech like the Necrons. Maybe the slowdown of the cores means production and/or research/download of new tech is throttled.
I think the answer to that lies in the first bit of fluff they put out that the cores are malfunctioning after tens of thousands of years taking decades or more to previously give answers for calculations that would have been spit out in minutes. Basically advanced computers with eons of bloatware and updates that have never been rebooted. That's likely preventing them from significantly advancing.
The difference between only being able to order up a Bolter, and ordering up a Bolter, but specifying you need it 5% lighter, with a scope capable of seeing into specific ranges of light etc, then letting the machine work out how to achieve that.
The difference between ordering a Choose Your Topping pizza from Dominos, and making a pizza from scratch in your own kitchen.
Fascinating little article, if nothing else I just enjoy this adding of new lore. I really like this idea of divergent evolution between the Imperium and the Votanni.
I'm assuming they will play very similar to fantasy Dwarves, tough and hard hitting with a powerful gunline but not very mobile, apart from a few key units like the copters.
Voss wrote: We're explicitly told they're improving and not in technological stasis. I don't know what more you need.
They better have a hell of dark side or weakness, because between this article and the last one, the Leagues are coming off as basically perfect.
They're improving but it states they move slowly, so something is throttling their progress. It may be a combination of conservatism, and maybe their ancestor cores. We've been told some have slowed down to the point of taking centuries to answer a question. If research and retooling somehow has to go through them, then that slowdown could explain why they are still at STC tech even after thousands of years.
Same. And it mentioned their "A.N-vyl terminals" (yeah anvil, so obvious), and how they are used to command the auto-foundries of each Kin hold. Sounds like a bunch of 3D printers/nano-fabricators to me.
I'm wondering whether their Votann cores will be the weakness that prevents the Kin from becoming total high tech gods and getting to Clarketech like the Necrons. Maybe the slowdown of the cores means production and/or research/download of new tech is throttled.
I think the answer to that lies in the first bit of fluff they put out that the cores are malfunctioning after tens of thousands of years taking decades or more to previously give answers for calculations that would have been spit out in minutes. Basically advanced computers with eons of bloatware and updates that have never been rebooted. That's likely preventing them from significantly advancing.
I wonder if they have the Excel version with the flight simulator included
GW: "The Ancestor Cores that are the literal technological, cultural and spiritual core of the Leagues are malfunctioning after millennia of continuous operation."
People on the internet: "Sheesh I hope they have some weakness."
I alos rather like some of the historic uses of "Broker"
broker (n.)
mid-14c. (mid-13c. in surnames), "commercial agent, factor," also "an agent in sordid business," from Anglo-French brocour "small trader," from abrokur "retailer of wine, tapster;" perhaps from Portuguese alborcar "barter," but more likely from Old French brocheor, from brochier "to broach, tap, pierce (a keg)," from broche (Old North French broke, broque) "pointed tool" (see broach (n.)), with an original sense of "wine dealer," hence "retailer, middleman, agent." In Middle English, used contemptuously of peddlers and pimps, "one who buys and sells public office" (late 14c. in Anglo-French), "intermediary in love or marriage" (late 14c.).
Voss wrote: They better have a hell of dark side or weakness, because between this article and the last one, the Leagues are coming off as basically perfect.
Their unshakable belief that revolvers are superior to automatic weapons may pass as one hell of a weakness. At least after the first six shots.
The squat lasgun is mislabelled as an autogun. It's got a standard lasgun muzzle with slanted cowl and power pack with diagonal indented stripe. The design intent is pretty clear. Wierd error to make. For reference: Lexicanum Lasgun and Autogun.
Voss wrote: They better have a hell of dark side or weakness, because between this article and the last one, the Leagues are coming off as basically perfect.
Their unshakable belief that revolvers are superior to automatic weapons may pass as one hell of a weakness. At least after the first six shots.
The squat lasgun is mislabelled as an autogun. It's got a standard lasgun muzzle with slanted cowl and power pack with diagonal indented stripe. The design intent is pretty clear. Wierd error to make. For reference: Lexicanum Lasgun and Autogun.
HyLAS Auto Rifle. Looks like a "squad automatic weapon" version of a lasgun to me.
The squat lasgun is mislabelled as an autogun. It's got a standard lasgun muzzle with slanted cowl and power pack with diagonal indented stripe. The design intent is pretty clear. Wierd error to make. For reference: Lexicanum Lasgun and Autogun.
You mean the thing called a HyLAS Auto Rifle? Pretty sure that's not a mislabelling.
The squat lasgun is mislabelled as an autogun. It's got a standard lasgun muzzle with slanted cowl and power pack with diagonal indented stripe. The design intent is pretty clear. Wierd error to make. For reference: Lexicanum Lasgun and Autogun.
KillerAngel wrote: HyLAS Auto Rifle. Looks like a "squad automatic weapon" version of a lasgun to me.
Ah, yeah. For some reason I read Hylas as "high-luss" instead of "high-laze" and just assumed it was a name or place.
The squat lasgun is mislabelled as an autogun. It's got a standard lasgun muzzle with slanted cowl and power pack with diagonal indented stripe. The design intent is pretty clear. Wierd error to make. For reference: Lexicanum Lasgun and Autogun.
HyLAS Auto Rifle. Looks like a "squad automatic weapon" version of a lasgun to me.
Yes, it's an automatic las rifle. For extra fun they spelled hi(gh) with a y, just to throw you off.
Geifer wrote: Yes, it's an automatic las rifle. For extra fun they spelled hi(gh) with a y, just to throw you off.
Ynd bycause GW ys clinycally yncapable yf spellyng wyrds wythout randymly replacyng vowyls wyth y.
GW lore being what it is, I'm still half-expecting a WarCom article explaining how the name "Hylas Auto Rifle" doesn't actually come from "high-capacity automatic laser rifle" but instead is named after its inventor Johnny Hylas.
So if there's the A.N.VIL terminals that control auto-foundry's and the Votann are their gunsmiths, their Engineers aren't actually forging the equipment? Hand-forging every weapon would obviously be a bit much but I enjoy the master craftsmen and innovation side of the Dwarf Archetype so I hope there's more to it than just a factory that automatically does it to a high standard for them.
The squat lasgun is mislabelled as an autogun. It's got a standard lasgun muzzle with slanted cowl and power pack with diagonal indented stripe. The design intent is pretty clear. Wierd error to make. For reference: Lexicanum Lasgun and Autogun.
HyLAS Auto Rifle. Looks like a "squad automatic weapon" version of a lasgun to me.
Yes, it's an automatic las rifle. For extra fun they spelled hi(gh) with a y, just to throw you off.
Geifer wrote: Yes, it's an automatic las rifle. For extra fun they spelled hi(gh) with a y, just to throw you off.
Ynd bycause GW ys clinycally yncapable yf spellyng wyrds wythout randymly replacyng vowyls wyth y.
GW lore being what it is, I'm still half-expecting a WarCom article explaining how the name "Hylas Auto Rifle" doesn't actually come from "high-capacity automatic laser rifle" but instead is named after its inventor Johnny Hylas.
The squat lasgun is mislabelled as an autogun. It's got a standard lasgun muzzle with slanted cowl and power pack with diagonal indented stripe. The design intent is pretty clear. Wierd error to make. For reference: Lexicanum Lasgun and Autogun.
HyLAS Auto Rifle. Looks like a "squad automatic weapon" version of a lasgun to me.
Yes, it's an automatic las rifle. For extra fun they spelled hi(gh) with a y, just to throw you off.
I'm trying to work out why one would ever make - outside of aesthetics or simple desire - a bolt revolver, or what advantages a bolt shotgun would ever have when you consider that bolt rounds are self-propelled and the true versatility of shotguns (via ammunition types) is something boltguns have inherently.
Geifer wrote: Yes, it's an automatic las rifle. For extra fun they spelled hi(gh) with a y, just to throw you off.
Ynd bycause GW ys clinycally yncapable yf spellyng wyrds wythout randymly replacyng vowyls wyth y.
I dislike it as well, because it's the same thing those companies that make weird milk alternatives do.
However! The sentence you wrote is correct from a middle english perspective so.. it works both ways.
It'd actually be pretty cool if they did the creative spellings more consistently, and for many more in-universe words, to show how language has changed over the millenia. Like Ye Olde Tyme Scrypt in space.
The squat lasgun is mislabelled as an autogun. It's got a standard lasgun muzzle with slanted cowl and power pack with diagonal indented stripe. The design intent is pretty clear. Wierd error to make. For reference: Lexicanum Lasgun and Autogun.
HyLAS Auto Rifle. Looks like a "squad automatic weapon" version of a lasgun to me.
Yes, it's an automatic las rifle. For extra fun they spelled hi(gh) with a y, just to throw you off.
Geifer wrote: Yes, it's an automatic las rifle. For extra fun they spelled hi(gh) with a y, just to throw you off.
Ynd bycause GW ys clinycally yncapable yf spellyng wyrds wythout randymly replacyng vowyls wyth y.
GW lore being what it is, I'm still half-expecting a WarCom article explaining how the name "Hylas Auto Rifle" doesn't actually come from "high-capacity automatic laser rifle" but instead is named after its inventor Johnny Hylas.
I'm sure the bolt revolver was invented by John Mosys Brownying.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Arguably their simpler mechanisms make them less maintenance intensive for prospecting etc?
I know bugger all about guns, hence the question mark.
A revolver would be easier to maintain than an automatic or semi automatic, yes.
It's just that the whole bolt system is already a little complex because of the rocket propelled round thing.
Giving an easy to maintain weapon ammunition that's complex seems counterintuitive to me. It would have made more sense if it just used high explosive rounds, Judge Dredd style.
I suppose making a bolt weapon would speed up the reload process as they are meant to be caseless, but the same effect could be achieved with speed loaders or caseless ammunition.
I dunno, giving them bolt weapons just feels like trying to make the Votann imperials +1 by giving them imperial weapons "but better" instead of giving them unique variations and evolutions of DAoT tech that matches their history and environment.
Geifer wrote: Yes, it's an automatic las rifle. For extra fun they spelled hi(gh) with a y, just to throw you off.
Ynd bycause GW ys clinycally yncapable yf spellyng wyrds wythout randymly replacyng vowyls wyth y.
GW lore being what it is, I'm still half-expecting a WarCom article explaining how the name "Hylas Auto Rifle" doesn't actually come from "high-capacity automatic laser rifle" but instead is named after its inventor Johnny Hylas.
I'm sure the bolt revolver was invented by John Mosys Brownying.
That'd be pretty on-brand, if the Rogue Trader squats are any guide. He could be Blish Browning's cousin!
Voss wrote: We're explicitly told they're improving and not in technological stasis. I don't know what more you need.
They better have a hell of dark side or weakness, because between this article and the last one, the Leagues are coming off as basically perfect.
Having a functioning STC allows for that. And still doesn’t mean they understand the science behind what’s being made.
Strip those STC’s away? And they’re, for a period at least, even more stuffed for tech than The Imperium. Because the ability to create and utilise advanced technology is not the same as understanding it.
I’m interested to know more about the Votann, as in terms of STC lore it’s suggested not all were equal.
Yes, each had the sum total of human knowledge within it when first made. But, they were not all made at the same time.
Some you described your problem and materials on hand, and it would give you a blueprint to fix the first using the second. Others would actively fabricate the goodies for you. Whether that was Star Trek style Replicator or a highly advanced and automated assembly line we don’t know. But it could well be both.
Generation upon generation depended upon STC’s for their tech and weapons etc. And that was fine until The Dark Age of Technology. When the STCs were lost (seemingly in the battle against The Men of Iron, but which side destroyed them and why is likely a complicated “well it was pretty much both for a variety of reasons” question. But the end result was when the dust settled, few worlds retained their STC`s beyond fragments, and even fewer had any understanding of the tools they were previously furnished with.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm trying to work out why one would ever make - outside of aesthetics or simple desire - a bolt revolver, or what advantages a bolt shotgun would ever have when you consider that bolt rounds are self-propelled and the true versatility of shotguns (via ammunition types) is something boltguns have inherently.
looking on the size of the rounds and the size of the magazins, a shotgun and revolver would have more ammo than those....
A revolver would be easier to maintain than an automatic or semi automatic, yes.
It's just that the whole bolt system is already a little complex because of the rocket propelled round thing.
Giving an easy to maintain weapon ammunition that's complex seems counterintuitive to me. It would have made more sense if it just used high explosive rounds, Judge Dredd style.
a Revolver is not necessarily easier than an automatic, the mechanics are more delicate
the main point for the revolver is that it is, it can be smaller (better concealed) suffer less from shooter failures, have less problem with ammunition quality and you can use stronger ammunition
meaning it also works with bad ammo, which would be a problem for a semi-auto but as the force for the "reload" comes from the operator, a bad bullet won't stop your gun
they fail less, but if they fail it is not a quick fix but you need to take them apart to clear it which you need a gunsmith (and secure workplace)
so talking about a revolver fire bolter round, stronger ammo is not a point (rocket propelled round), neither is concealment, so it would come down to LoV have problems with ammunition quality and are bad at shooting
not sure if this is the indented picture we should get
Voss wrote: We're explicitly told they're improving and not in technological stasis. I don't know what more you need.
They better have a hell of dark side or weakness, because between this article and the last one, the Leagues are coming off as basically perfect.
Having a functioning STC allows for that. And still doesn’t mean they understand the science behind what’s being made.
.
That was a lot of yadda yadda. Now, point in the article where it says or even implies that they don't understand, and reread the sentence where it explicitly says that they're improving tech and not in technological stasis.
Also go back to the article about cloning, and how they've avoided the usual pit-traps there (no diversity, limited gene pool), can add or subtract psychic ability, and come up with new genetic improvements.
I guess they could be technologically backwards like the Imperium, but everything GW has written on them so far (other than 'their AI cores are running on DOS') says the opposite. You're running based on something you've made up.
You’re assuming it’s the Squats, not the STC making the improvements. That is my point, and not in fact “a whole lot of yadda” as you so dismissively put it.
If you have a still functioning and complete STC system, depending on its hypothetical generation, then as you discover new minerals etc, and feed their properties in, it can devise ways to put them to use.
Let’s call one Sparklonium. You feed that into the STC, and it discovers (not you discover) that it allows for the creation of a heat resistant alloy, which in turn can be made to fabricate Lasweapons of a higher yield, or Bolt Weapons with a higher rate of fire.
That is an innovation. But at no point is it your innovation. It’s still the STC doing all the clevers.
Now from what little we known so far about the Votann specifically? They can still accept new data, and it’s implied it’s even capable of storing personalities of the deceased (I might be reading too much into it though). That to me suggest these are higher end, more advanced STCs.
If the Leagues truly understood their Votann, would we not reasonably expect them to be au fait with maintenance, or providing more RAM or disk space to stop them slowing down? Or even just be sensible and ask the Votann to create a new Votann, and split the files between them. One can be the Domestic/Industrial Votann, the other the Tactical/War Materiel Votann - networked together just in case with the capacity to access each other’s databanks.
That such a seemingly simple fix clearly hasn’t been implemented speaks rather strongly of just how little the Leagues actually understand their tech basis, no?
I think the Bolt Shotgun argument might be going in the wrong direction. Not just a pump-action bolt rifle like many seem to think, but possibly a large caliber shotgun round that shoots large high-velocity fragments in a pattern. The layman view of shotguns (ie GW) is that shotguns have a large spread patterns and doesn't need to be aimed (oh yes, they very much do in real life) and so are good close quarters assault weapons. So probably an Assault X with decent strength (5?) and limited AP. Just my off-the-cuff musings.
which would mean you put a rocket propelled grenade in it that explodes
there is no real point using a round, that splits off into multiple small rounds that are rocket propelled
Shotgun is fine, there is an idea in the lore what they should do and this is ok
but putting a bolt round in them just makes no sense
and if this is a very special bullet that can do things other bolt rounds can not, why call it bolt shotgun in the first place
I was going to say similar, i'd guess the bolt shotgun has many microbolt 'pellets' in each with it's own rocket so you get the extra punch of a bolt round with the spread of a shotgun
kodos wrote: which would mean you put a rocket propelled grenade in it that explodes
there is no real point using a round, that splits off into multiple small rounds that are rocket propelled
Tell that to Torgue But yeah, a bolt shot gun doesn't really make sense as the point of a bolt round is to have a projectile weapon that works at long range in space iirc.
This would be redundant with a weapon that's meant to be used in close quarters.
Bolt Shotguns have been a thing in lore for a long while, they've been rather popular among both Scouts and the Deathwatch. So clearly, there's a good reason to have them.
kodos wrote: which would mean you put a rocket propelled grenade in it that explodes
there is no real point using a round, that splits off into multiple small rounds that are rocket propelled
Shotgun is fine, there is an idea in the lore what they should do and this is ok
but putting a bolt round in them just makes no sense
and if this is a very special bullet that can do things other bolt rounds can not, why call it bolt shotgun in the first place
So you are now noticing that 40K tech doesn't make sense?
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Bolt Shotguns have been a thing in lore for a long while, they've been rather popular among both Scouts and the Deathwatch. So clearly, there's a good reason to have them.
Scout and Deathwatch shotguns don;t fire bolts though, do they? They have a range of other specialist ammo, but are specifically not firing bolts.
In the original Necromunda you could get bolt rounds for shotguns as a poor-mans bolter, but that was as an exception rather than a shotgun specifically designed to fire bolt ammo.
I have not looked close to 40k tech the last years
but it is not about making sense compared to real world, but being consistent and making sense inside the universe
like having a bolt revolver could make sense with some in-universe thing that makes it better, were in real life a revolver makes no sense at all for military use unless you want some very strong ammo (which falls flat for a bolt revolver as the gun does not care how the strong the rocket is)
and no, having 20 different bolt guns that all look different and therefore having different stats, makes no sense either as it is all about the special bolt round and every difference in stats would come from the bullet not the shape of the weapon
and as far as I know the Scout shotguns never used bolt rounds
I think the thing is though that really it's an aesthetic choice. The point is that they need something clearly different from an Imperial Boltpistol that evokes power and that looks like it can be handled by a tougher species. It also links to the prospector aspect in the Western movie sense. In film and games, a shotgun and a revolver says grizzled and hard arsed character. It's never about what a gun can do in real life because this isn't real life. It's what the gun says about the wielder and what we as the viewer extrapolate from that.
A bolt revolver says "Imperial" but clearly divergent. And that's the point.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Bolt Shotguns have been a thing in lore for a long while, they've been rather popular among both Scouts and the Deathwatch. So clearly, there's a good reason to have them.
Scout and Deathwatch shotguns don;t fire bolts though, do they? They have a range of other specialist ammo, but are specifically not firing bolts.
In the original Necromunda you could get bolt rounds for shotguns as a poor-mans bolter, but that was as an exception rather than a shotgun specifically designed to fire bolt ammo.
I believe the Adeptus Arbites could also fire bolter shells from shotguns. But yes, the point very much was that you have a shotgun for all your shotgun needs, but if you really, really need to mess someone up from the inside out, you could load bolter shells. It's an additional function, not the point behind the whole design like the Squat pump action revolver bolt shotgun.
Olthannon wrote: I think the thing is though that really it's an aesthetic choice. The point is that they need something clearly different from an Imperial Boltpistol that evokes power and that looks like it can be handled by a tougher species. It also links to the prospector aspect in the Western movie sense. In film and games, a shotgun and a revolver says grizzled and hard arsed character. It's never about what a gun can do in real life because this isn't real life. It's what the gun says about the wielder and what we as the viewer extrapolate from that.
A bolt revolver says "Imperial" but clearly divergent. And that's the point.
I hope the new Squats ride donkeys and wear funny hats. Nothing says prospector like riding a donkey while wearing a funny hat.
I guess everyone read "bolt shotgun" and assumed rocket powered bolter shell. I just pictured something like the old 40mm buckshot rounds from Vietnam (but bigger and more better). Even regular bolters have a small charge to get the round out of the barrel before the rocket motor kicks in, so maybe this is similar but less rocket.
Not that it actually has to make sense. Pump action revolver? Kinda removes the point of the pump action. Plus no slug changeovers.
The squat lasgun is mislabelled as an autogun. It's got a standard lasgun muzzle with slanted cowl and power pack with diagonal indented stripe. The design intent is pretty clear. Wierd error to make. For reference: Lexicanum Lasgun and Autogun.
You mean the thing called a HyLAS Auto Rifle? Pretty sure that's not a mislabelling.
It also looks rather similar to the Van Saar lascarbine from Necromunda which
1) is their equivalent of an autogun
2) was also made by a fully operational STC
LoV bolters are described as hitting harder, and being more stable than Imperial Bolters. Are we looking at Strength 5, assault 2 bolters?
If that's the case, I kinda hope the Hylas autorifle is an alternate basic weapon. Pure speculation on the stats, but S3, AP 3, assault 4 would be neat.
cuda1179 wrote: LoV bolters are described as hitting harder, and being more stable than Imperial Bolters. Are we looking at Strength 5, assault 2 bolters?
If that's the case, I kinda hope the Hylas autorifle is an alternate basic weapon. Pure speculation on the stats, but S3, AP 3, assault 4 would be neat.
With lethality creep and bolters hitting harder, I'm going to go out on a limb and say S4 for their mo-betta las weapons and S5 for their bolt weapons. AP TBD, but -3 isn't outrageous given the hotshot lasguns. As was mentioned previously, Van Saar lasguns do look very similar, so S3 isn't out of the picture yet, but LoV having hotshot lasgun equivalents doesn't seem to fit the theme.
Bit of a side note, but I'd love for Guard to get a las based squad automatic weapon. Something in the Rapid Fire 3, S3, AP0 ballpark, with a big fat old battery pack underneath where the belted bullets would normally go.
cuda1179 wrote: LoV bolters are described as hitting harder, and being more stable than Imperial Bolters. Are we looking at Strength 5, assault 2 bolters?
If that's the case, I kinda hope the Hylas autorifle is an alternate basic weapon. Pure speculation on the stats, but S3, AP 3, assault 4 would be neat.
With lethality creep and bolters hitting harder, I'm going to go out on a limb and say S4 for their mo-betta las weapons and S5 for their bolt weapons. AP TBD, but -3 isn't outrageous given the hotshot lasguns. As was mentioned previously, Van Saar lasguns do look very similar, so S3 isn't out of the picture yet, but LoV having hotshot lasgun equivalents doesn't seem to fit the theme.
Bit of a side note, but I'd love for Guard to get a las based squad automatic weapon. Something in the Rapid Fire 3, S3, AP0 ballpark, with a big fat old battery pack underneath where the belted bullets would normally go.
Wouldn't that be a multilaser? It is odd how HWS can't use multilasers.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Wouldn't that be a multilaser? It is odd how HWS can't use multilasers.
Multilaser is definitely in the heavy weapon category. What I'm thinking is more like a lasgun variant of the M249. So about the same size (tad bigger) as a lasgun, meant for sustained automatic fire. Like a hotshot volley gun, minus the hotshot part, and ideally not Heavy.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Wouldn't that be a multilaser? It is odd how HWS can't use multilasers.
Multilaser is definitely in the heavy weapon category. What I'm thinking is more like a lasgun variant of the M249. So about the same size (tad bigger) as a lasgun, meant for sustained automatic fire. Like a hotshot volley gun, minus the hotshot part, and ideally not Heavy.
Fair enough. That would be useful for IG squads to have.
If the bolt shotgun fires truly caseless rounds then the revolver mechanism makes a certain amount of sense; the main concerns with caseless guns are: ammunition fragility, flashover, and cookoff. Having a cylinder as an intermediary between the magazine and the breech solves the last two by leaving time for the chambers to cool before being reloaded and physically separating the round being fired from the rest of the stock.
You just have to deal with the other problems of revolver mechanisms as well as all the problems of pump mechanisms too.
So still pretty daft.
Personally I think they just wanted a Pancor Jackhammer and an H&K G11 to have a baby.
So people keep saying but I have gone through RT, the Compilation and sencond and third edition rule books and can find no mention of it. Do you have a reference?
Rihgu wrote: They really went and wrote "The squats have better bolters than space marines AND taught the Tau how to make ion weapons" and I'm kind of here for it.
Yep! I'm totally loving it! Need to see these weapons on some infantry!
Rihgu wrote: They really went and wrote "The squats have better bolters than space marines AND taught the Tau how to make ion weapons" and I'm kind of here for it.
I didn't. To me it felt really hamfisted, like the Primaris release or that time where they made the Nightbringer the reason why organisms are afraid of death. The weapon designs seem cool at least, but I don't like how they are imperials +1, oh and they also taught the Tau how to make their guns and don't afraid of anything.
Personally, I don't think the Squat weapons seem all that implausible. Definitely not any more so than what passes for normal with Eldar and Necron weapons (or Tyranids, for that matter). Don't really understand why people are fine with a faction whose main weapon "strips apart targets at the molecular level" using magic green death beams, but a bolter shotgun is now a bridge too far.
The weapons look chunky and convey a sense of power, and that's really about as much verisimilitude as I'm looking for in my game about space Catholics, robot Egyptians, and angry fungus.
Also regarding las saws, but here isn’t that much design space between lasguns and heavy Stubbers to fit a squad weapon in.
Sure there is. Something with the stats of the lasgun, but better ROF (rapid fire 3?) would help with firepower output (FRFSRF at half range anyone?). Add in an option for a single underbarrel grenade launcher (like for Space Marines) and we're in business.
"Bolt Shotgun is stupid. Gyrojet does not work like that. Either it is a regular shotgun yeeting out packed shot, or it is just a regular gyrojet slug in which case it is just a bolter."
It also has a cylinder and a pump-action. That... why would you ever do that?
"Bolt Shotgun is stupid. Gyrojet does not work like that. Either it is a regular shotgun yeeting out packed shot, or it is just a regular gyrojet slug in which case it is just a bolter."
It also has a cylinder and a pump-action. That... why would you ever do that?
Presumably when you pump it it rotates the cylinder. Which...works I guess, but it's not what I would call practical and seems needlessly complex. Which for a race of supposed advanced not-Dwarfs that does everything better than the Imperium in terms of engineering doesn't seem right.
Also, why is it Volkanite and not Volkite? Did GW think that volkite not good enough (even though the Imperium lost how to produce them), so they felt that they had to make volkite +1?
But why wouldn't your cylinder-based gun be double-action... and... uhh! It's frustrating seeing people who know nothing about guns design guns. I'm far from an expert, but even I know that that's stupid.
Ultimately I think they chose "Bolt Shotgun" just because it sounds cool, not thinking that the benefits of a shotgun aren't benefits in the world of bolt guns ('cause they already do the customised and specialist ammunition types) and because they wanted a 'pump action' gun, which is cool, even if the method is supremely outdated even today, to the point where it's not something that's really necessary (and certainly is becoming less and less common in military circles).
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Which...works I guess, but it's not what I would call practical and seems needlessly complex. Which for a race of supposed advanced not-Dwarfs that does everything better than the Imperium in terms of engineering doesn't seem right.
Exactly! Yes, you could make a pump action that turns a cylinder to the next chamber. I can't think of a reason why you ever would, especially given the purpose of a pump action is to push rounds down an internal magazine, which would, in theory, hold more than a cylinder and eject the casing of the previous round. More importantly, a you can not pump a shotgun and load a shell manually, thereby allowing you to slot a specific type of specialist round in, something a cylinder-based weapon would make difficult, if not impossible.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Also, why is it Volkanite and not Volkite? Did GW think that volkite not good enough (even though the Imperium lost how to produce them), so they felt that they had to make volkite +1?
Why did Necromunda Enforcers suddenly become "Palanite" Enforcers?
Actually most internal magazines in pump action shotguns tend to be pretty low capacity. On average it's about 4 shells I think? There are exceptions though. The Spas 12 can have 8 iirc.
Shotguns with revolver cylinders aren't all that outlandish either; the Russian MTs255 is a hunting shotgun that has a 5 round cylinder. However, it is not pump action.
There's at least one example of a pseudo-bolter shotgun. The redemption, from space hulk deathwing. Basic gist is that after exiting the barrel, the bolt rounds explode soon after leaving the barrel rather than once they penetrate/hit a target. Kind of like an airburst frag grenade, I suppose. But shaped forward.
Also the fragments ricochet. Video games. Also I wonder if the Volkanite implies that actual volkite was the equivalent of phosphor to phosphex.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Actually most internal magazines in pump action shotguns tend to be pretty low capacity.
On average it's about 4 shells I think?
There are exceptions though. The Spas 12 can have 8 iirc.
Actually, Kel-Tec KSG can hold up to 25 rounds, plus ability to load two different round types and switch them on the fly. Very compact DP-12 can hold 16, and that thing is tiny. Seeing shotguns with magazines only hold 5-10 rounds, internal magazine can very much be better choice unless you plan to have extended firefight.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It also has a cylinder and a pump-action. That... why would you ever do that?
Assuming it's really a pump action and not just people jumping to conclusions about standard bolter front grip, you could use the tube to top up your cylinder. Just pump in new bolt into empty chamber, done. You could even have two tubes alongside and choose which one to use, letting you use multiple kinds of ammunition. Doubly so with cylinder automatically rotating to whatever you need. Something standard bolters very much can't do (yes, DW ones somehow magically teleport right bolt from magazine but if anything, it's DW not squat gear that is unrealistic, and DW bolters are massive while this thing is pretty compact and far more durable).
Now, why you would want a cylinder? Besides the above mentioned ability to switch ammo types on the fly, cylinders have much bigger thermal mass than a automatic rifle chamber, meaning it takes more shots to warm them up (and it cools easier). Something rather important with caseless (or semi-cased, depending on bolt depictions) ammunition - you don't want it to cook off. It's possible you can fire hotter ammunition than any SM bolter is capable of for longer. Especially if it has some sort of recoil compensation. You also can't jam a revolver and can use much bigger range of ammunition, as with cylinders, only diameter matters, not the length, while self loading rifles can be pretty picky and even 1 mm too short or too long bolt can get stuck or misfire.
Now, the downside would be a harder reload, but speedloaders for both cylinders and tube mags exist, and that's assuming they don't have something automatically reloading it for them (see the Rogue Trader lady mini, even Imperium has that tech so squats surely have it too).
Flinty wrote: Scout and Deathwatch shotguns don;t fire bolts though, do they? They have a range of other specialist ammo, but are specifically not firing bolts.
No, it's the other way around, DW bolt ammunition is based on real life specialist shotgun shells. So is their new shotgun ammo (the types added to 7th edition Deathwatch book were funnily enough based on stuff developed for Iraq war, which is why they were not in any of earlier DW rules). So, yeah, in a way GW just went full circle with this if squat bolt SGs can now use what originally was shotgun concept to begin with
Does it say anywhere that it is a pump action shotgun?
I assumed it's the same weapon as the pioneer on the trike model and that just has a thick moulded grip. It's even screwed in place.
That's not a slide.
EDIT:
Same grip as that in fact.
I don't care either way, I like the idea of a revolving pump action shotgun. It's weird and a little different. It says 'archaic' which you want from a human/dwarf race that diverted.
I've been wondering whether GW are going all Norse on the Leagues of Votann linguistically to try and illustrate how they are branched off from the rest of humanity.
Remember, that in 40K, they don't really speak English. The common lingua franca of the Imperium is Low Gothic, which is rendered for the reader as English, while the older High Gothic is faux Latin to show their linguistic relationship. The use of Old Norse for the Leagues may be intended to show how distant they are. Even their ancestors' language is separate and distinct from the ancient Latin-related (High Gothic) languages.
@Olthannon - the shotgun grip is aesthetically similar to the Bolter grip you showed, but it also has a specifically modelled groove in front and behind it implying it’s a slide that bolters don’t have.
"Bolt Shotgun is stupid. Gyrojet does not work like that. Either it is a regular shotgun yeeting out packed shot, or it is just a regular gyrojet slug in which case it is just a bolter."
It also has a cylinder and a pump-action. That... why would you ever do that?
Dunno man... ask the russians xD
(joking, but hey, revolver shotgun!)
Only way I could see it is as a pump action pepperbox style:
I hope the new Squats ride donkeys and wear funny hats. Nothing says prospector like riding a donkey while wearing a funny hat.
"Donkyns" TM
You're my new hero.
cole1114 wrote: There's at least one example of a pseudo-bolter shotgun. The redemption, from space hulk deathwing. Basic gist is that after exiting the barrel, the bolt rounds explode soon after leaving the barrel rather than once they penetrate/hit a target. Kind of like an airburst frag grenade, I suppose. But shaped forward.
Also the fragments ricochet. Video games. Also I wonder if the Volkanite implies that actual volkite was the equivalent of phosphor to phosphex.
That's in the shell design, though, and therefore launcher agnostic. Which is one of the big things here. People saying GW doesn't understand guns are likely not wrong, but on top of that they don't even understand their own made up stuff. Overwhelmingly what makes a bolter work the way it does is in the shell. As long as the barrel is the right caliber it doesn't matter if the gun is a muzzleloader or breechloader or the latest in rotary design. Once the shell exits the barrel it does the same thing regardless of what fired it. Trying to sell fancy, outdated loading mechanisms on the gun as somehow superior to Imperial automatic design is completely backwards on a bolt weapon.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Actually most internal magazines in pump action shotguns tend to be pretty low capacity. On average it's about 4 shells I think? There are exceptions though. The Spas 12 can have 8 iirc.
Actually, Kel-Tec KSG can hold up to 25 rounds, plus ability to load two different round types and switch them on the fly. Very compact DP-12 can hold 16, and that thing is tiny. Seeing shotguns with magazines only hold 5-10 rounds, internal magazine can very much be better choice unless you plan to have extended firefight.
I see those types of shotguns are becoming more common then. Still don't have a cylinder though.
Assuming it's really a pump action and not just people jumping to conclusions about standard bolter front grip,
I considered it could just be a grip, but there does appear to be a grove that would imply a slide. It might just be detail though.
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Geifer wrote: Trying to sell fancy, outdated loading mechanisms on the gun as somehow superior to Imperial automatic design is completely backwards on a bolt weapon.
To make matters worse, GW wrote an article talking about how the Votann actually know how to engineer, and as an example of this superior engineering they reveal a gun that no gunsmith would make. Why would they make a pump action revolver when they know how to make double action revolvers?
Olthannon wrote: Does it say anywhere that it is a pump action shotgun?
I assumed it's the same weapon as the pioneer on the trike model and that just has a thick moulded grip. It's even screwed in place.
Spoiler:
That's not a slide.
EDIT:
Spoiler:
Same grip as that in fact.
I don't care either way, I like the idea of a revolving pump action shotgun. It's weird and a little different. It says 'archaic' which you want from a human/dwarf race that diverted.
I really don’t care about gun design apart from ‘does it look cool’ so I don’t have a dog in this fight, but you can see the slide on the shotgun.
Geifer wrote: That's in the shell design, though, and therefore launcher agnostic. Which is one of the big things here. People saying GW doesn't understand guns are likely not wrong, but on top of that they don't even understand their own made up stuff. Overwhelmingly what makes a bolter work the way it does is in the shell. As long as the barrel is the right caliber it doesn't matter if the gun is a muzzleloader or breechloader or the latest in rotary design. Once the shell exits the barrel it does the same thing regardless of what fired it. Trying to sell fancy, outdated loading mechanisms on the gun as somehow superior to Imperial automatic design is completely backwards on a bolt weapon.
I think that's really the main issue here.
If you want to make a pump-action revolver shotgun that fires self-propelled mini-missiles because it's "cool", then more power to you. But don't also tout the people building such a weapon as being so much more advanced than the people currently using the semi-/fully-automatic magazine-fed versions of the same gun. It'd be like saying that their Las-weaponry is leagues (of Votann) better than the Imperium, yet all their Las-weaponry has a manual hand-crank to charge it between shots.
Then again this is GW, that has modelled bolt weaponry with a rail system for ages, yet mount accessories anywherebuttherail.
Flinty wrote:@Olthannon - the shotgun grip is aesthetically similar to the Bolter grip you showed, but it also has a specifically modelled groove in front and behind it implying it’s a slide that bolters don’t have.
ImAGeek wrote:
I really don’t care about gun design apart from ‘does it look cool’ so I don’t have a dog in this fight, but you can see the slide on the shotgun.
Fair enough if so. But why is it screwed on to the barrel if it's meant to slide?
Fair enough if so. But why is it screwed on to the barrel if it's meant to slide?
I did notice that and thought it was peculiar too. Looking at various models of pump action shotguns, there does appear to be lack of rivets/screws on the pump mechanism.
So either it's just a grip, or GW really doesn't know how a pump is supposed to work. I guess we'll have to wait for a more detailed description of it.
This is inane. If people cannot handle bolt shotguns or whatever because it is not plausibly optimal weapon design they should have just walked away from 40K decades ago and never look back. Basically nothing in this setting makes sense, it runs 95% on the rule of cool.
I'm so tired of all these absurd generated grievances regarding everything.
Crimson wrote: This is inane. If people cannot handle bolt shotguns or whatever because it is not plausibly optimal weapon design they should have just waked away from 40K decades ago and never loo back. Basically nothing in this setting makes sense, it runs 95% percent on the rule of cool.
I'm so tired of all these absurd generated grievances regarding everything.
Except they're selling the Votann as a faction that makes sense and knows how to actually build things. We're not talking about Orks or IoM here. Also, it's not that it's a bolt shotgun, it's that its a revolver PUMP ACTION shotgun. That's the real issue. If it were just a pump action shotgun or a revolver shotgun it would have been fine. The "pump" + "revolver" part is a little too much.
The only real issue I have with them using bolt weapons is that I consider it to be lazy writing, where instead of diverging properly they just have the same stuff as the Imperium, except with better stats. If they wanted to go that route they should have introduced an evolution / variation of bolt weapon technology, that shows what it would have turned into had the Imperium not stagnated. I'm assuming that's meant to be the case with the "Volkanite" weapon, where its a derivation of old Volkite weapons.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Assumption being that it's screwed onto the receiver/barrel, which it does not appear to be.
there is a common theme for game designs here, this was also pointed out for FarCry 6, were most of the weapons got the equipment mounted on places were it would have been useless after the 1st shot with the actual mounting place being untouched for reasons
gun designers who have never seen a real life gun trying to make things up that looks cool
Crimson wrote:This is inane. If people cannot handle bolt shotguns or whatever because it is not plausibly optimal weapon design they should have just waked away from 40K decades ago and never loo back. Basically nothing in this setting makes sense, it runs 95% percent on the rule of cool.
I'm so tired of all these absurd generated grievances regarding everything.
And I am so tired of GW not even trying any more but making stupid stuff, asking a stupid amount of money for it and I have to believe into the immersion because they said so
The background is the only thing going for 40k at the moment, take it away and there is nothing worth buying any more
and now they are going advertise a new faction with superior technology, that is so much superior that even the most superior alien race until now learned from them how to buid guns
and this superiority is shown by using an already outdated gun design with state of the art ammunition, even a low level Necromunda gang member can have
I can totally dive into the background of the game because it is so well written that it makes up for all the bad things going on
Except though that 40k isn't anything to do with real life. It's not about how we see technology and how something should work but more what a weapon represents and the artistry of the model. You're looking at a bolt revolver shotgun. It says it's an F off big gun. It says it's archaic. And that in 40k reverso world means more technologically adept. That's what you have to remember. In 40k if a gun looks older it's better. That's why it's a revolver. It's got absolutely nothing to do with how a gun is supposed to function.
@crimson is right there's zero point getting your collective knickers in a twist about stuff like gun design because none of it makes sense. And also why should it? At what point has 40k ever even hinted that it's grounded in reality?
I mean at some point you have to accept that because it's one of the core concepts of the 40k setting or doom your life to writing out comments about how GW is dumb because they haven't made a gun look the way you want it to because that is more real life.
EDIT: PS I'm not saying you're wrong in any way for wanting the guns to look and function like real guns. It's just that's never been a thing in 40k that they really ascribe to. It's not the point of a model. It's more of an aesthetic representation.
I'm just saying, a pump action revolver shotgun would look more at home in an Ork army. Especially if its doubled barreled. With bayonets. Oh, and it also doubles as a grenade
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Olthannon wrote: It says it's archaic. And that in 40k reverso world means more technologically adept.
I was not aware that Necrons use arquebuses, Eldar use flintlocks and Tau use lever guns. Oh, and the Van Saar? Practically wearing loincloths.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I'm just saying, a pump action revolver shotgun would look more at home in an Ork army.
Especially if its doubled barreled. With bayonets.
Oh, and it also doubles as a grenade
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Olthannon wrote: It says it's archaic. And that in 40k reverso world means more technologically adept.
I was not aware that Necrons use arquebuses, Eldar use flintlocks and Tau use lever guns.
Oh, and the Van Saar? Practically wearing loincloths.
Specifically for an Imperial setting. Necromunda doesn't count because its 80s pulp.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I'm just saying, a pump action revolver shotgun would look more at home in an Ork army. Especially if its doubled barreled. With bayonets. Oh, and it also doubles as a grenade
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Olthannon wrote: It says it's archaic. And that in 40k reverso world means more technologically adept.
I was not aware that Necrons use arquebuses, Eldar use flintlocks and Tau use lever guns. Oh, and the Van Saar? Practically wearing loincloths.
Specifically for an Imperial setting. Necromunda doesn't count because its 80s pulp.
Necromunda is still set in the Imperium, no? So design wise it should still follow. Especially when Van Saar is specifically said to use tech from the DoAT, unless I'm mistaken about their fluff? Also, Volkite and grav weaponry doesn't look particularly low tech.
Right but Necromunda has a very specific 80s pulp art style that is recognisably different from the rest of 40k. And that's my point. None of it is about whether the guns work as they should it's about their look and that it gives an immediate recognisable motif to the carriers of the weapons. Van Saar kit is noticeably at odds to the wider Imperium. You see it and you immediately understand that it isn't normal and is associated with that group.
I'm not saying low tech either, I'm saying archaic. Archaic weaponry can still be advanced, either through craft or the skill in creating the object.
art for the new models in necromunda
