It is compared to modern ordinance. No army still uses trebuchets for a reason.
I do not dispute that 40k has a theme of older is better (which isn't even unique to 40k), but I do dispute that this applies to the very aesthetic of the technology in question. Imperial tech looks crude and impractical because its a copy of an broken design based on scraps of what they could find, purveyed by fanatics who are basically militant monks from the Order of Leibowitz.
The Leagues of Votann are not supposed to suffer from such a drawback, so them using a hodgepodge design that would give a gun smith conniptions doesn't make sense in fluff or out.
kodos wrote:and now they are going advertise a new faction with superior technology, that is so much superior that even the most superior alien race until now learned from them how to buid guns
I didn't see anything in that article about them teaching the Necrons a thing.
They may, unfortunately, have taught a specific weapons technology - Ion tech - to the T'au, but that's it.
kodos wrote:and now they are going advertise a new faction with superior technology, that is so much superior that even the most superior alien race until now learned from them how to buid guns
I didn't see anything in that article about them teaching the Necrons a thing.
They may, unfortunately, have taught a specific weapons technology - Ion tech - to the T'au, but that's it.
Flinty wrote:@Olthannon - the shotgun grip is aesthetically similar to the Bolter grip you showed, but it also has a specifically modelled groove in front and behind it implying it’s a slide that bolters don’t have.
ImAGeek wrote:
I really don’t care about gun design apart from ‘does it look cool’ so I don’t have a dog in this fight, but you can see the slide on the shotgun.
Fair enough if so. But why is it screwed on to the barrel if it's meant to slide?
Who says its screwed on the barrel? It has pin-heads on the corners, sure, but thats just detailing and could just represent a rubber grip being fixed to a harder metal-bodies slide underneath or whatever. You're assuming way too much.
Crimson wrote: This is inane. If people cannot handle bolt shotguns or whatever because it is not plausibly optimal weapon design they should have just walked away from 40K decades ago and never look back. Basically nothing in this setting makes sense, it runs 95% on the rule of cool.
I'm so tired of all these absurd generated grievances regarding everything.
Welcome to dakka. This is what this forum seems to exist for at this point.
The Leagues of Votann are not supposed to suffer from such a drawback, so them using a hodgepodge design that would give a gun smith conniptions doesn't make sense in fluff or out.
Oh come on, give the designers a break. They're not professional gunsmiths so asking them to design plausible looking sci-fi weapons would be too much. Just like it is to ask them to design believable anatomy, expressive faces, tanks that could actually function in the real world, anything not held together by rivets, or a woman without Rob Liefeld proportions.
The Leagues of Votann are not supposed to suffer from such a drawback, so them using a hodgepodge design that would give a gun smith conniptions doesn't make sense in fluff or out.
Oh come on, give the designers a break. They're not professional gunsmiths so asking them to design plausible looking sci-fi weapons would be too much. Just like it is to ask them to design believable anatomy, expressive faces, tanks that could actually function in the real world, anything not held together by rivets, or a woman without Rob Liefeld proportions.
Would it, though? The internet is a thing, and if you wanna learn of see examples, you can. If you decide not to do it, then the issue is not that you don't know guns. It is that you don't care.
The Leagues of Votann are not supposed to suffer from such a drawback, so them using a hodgepodge design that would give a gun smith conniptions doesn't make sense in fluff or out.
Oh come on, give the designers a break. They're not professional gunsmiths so asking them to design plausible looking sci-fi weapons would be too much. Just like it is to ask them to design believable anatomy, expressive faces, tanks that could actually function in the real world, anything not held together by rivets, or a woman without Rob Liefeld proportions.
Would it, though? The internet is a thing, and if you wanna learn of see examples, you can. If you decide not to do it, then the issue is not that you don't know guns. It is that you don't care.
Sorry, I thought I was already laying the irony way too thick there, but clearly I was being too subtle to be understood. I fully maintain that the GW designers are, by and large, uninventive doofuses who don't look at nearly enough real-world references and instead make do with smashing shapes together until the result sort of looks like a mechanism. Wha they produce are cargo-cult facsimiles of plausible mechanisms, with little understanding of basic mechanical concepts that by necessity generally must underlie even science-fiction-fantastical things like boltguns, gauss flayers and land raiders.
The problem with that is that he hears bolter and says gyrojet, which means him wrong on a fundamental level. It’s like being told about speedboats and saying they’re dumb because paddle steamers suck.
Mr_Rose wrote: The problem with that is that he hears bolter and says gyrojet, which means him wrong on a fundamental level.
he also refers to the original rules/fluff were they write about caseless rocket propelled ammunition
it is not his problem that the fluff on what Bolter actually are, the artworks and the rules in game do not fit together, if the fluff talks about caseless exploding bullets, the artworks showing cases because they are cool and the rules do are changing whatever the games needs to keep Marines up, it is what it is
but also says that Bolters as how they are shown in the game are more like automatic grenade launchers, and not gyrojets like written in the fluff
Well I'm hesitant to drag this argument out, but here is a good video on how a modern pump action shotgun works.
https://youtu.be/21uh28Z77Xg
Notice that the action is designed to control the feeding of shells into the chamber from a magazine tube. Adding a revolver action makes it completely redundant.
So those of us who know our way around shotguns (I was, in fact, gifted an 870 as a wedding present from an uncle, go USA) feel that bonkers firearm design (among other things) break the immersion. Same goes for poor firearm handling in movies. Yes, it's absurd sci fiction, but sometimes there needs to be a foundation of reality to protect the immersion.
Also fully understand that this isn't a problem for some people, because they don't have the innate knowledge.
So to conclude, I'm not saying that GW sucks for doing what they did, just that my preference would help me maintain my immersion in the universe. Nothing a bit of choppy choppy and green stuff can't fix.
The Leagues of Votann are not supposed to suffer from such a drawback, so them using a hodgepodge design that would give a gun smith conniptions doesn't make sense in fluff or out.
Oh come on, give the designers a break. They're not professional gunsmiths so asking them to design plausible looking sci-fi weapons would be too much. Just like it is to ask them to design believable anatomy, expressive faces, tanks that could actually function in the real world, anything not held together by rivets, or a woman without Rob Liefeld proportions.
Would it, though? The internet is a thing, and if you wanna learn of see examples, you can. If you decide not to do it, then the issue is not that you don't know guns. It is that you don't care.
Sorry, I thought I was already laying the irony way too thick there, but clearly I was being too subtle to be understood. I fully maintain that the GW designers are, by and large, uninventive doofuses who don't look at nearly enough real-world references and instead make do with smashing shapes together until the result sort of looks like a mechanism. Wha they produce are cargo-cult facsimiles of plausible mechanisms, with little understanding of basic mechanical concepts that by necessity generally must underlie even science-fiction-fantastical things like boltguns, gauss flayers and land raiders.
No, no, I got it. I was just expanding on the idea.
Mr_Rose wrote: The problem with that is that he hears bolter and says gyrojet, which means him wrong on a fundamental level.
he also refers to the original rules/fluff were they write about caseless rocket propelled ammunition
it is not his problem that the fluff on what Bolter actually are, the artworks and the rules in game do not fit together, if the fluff talks about caseless exploding bullets, the artworks showing cases because they are cool and the rules do are changing whatever the games needs to keep Marines up, it is what it is
but also says that Bolters as how they are shown in the game are more like automatic grenade launchers, and not gyrojets like written in the fluff
It doesn't help either that a lot of media tends to portray bolters as just large caliber guns rather than mini rocket launchers.
Back on topic, LoV and allies. They are much, much less xenophobic than the Imperium, yet are tolerated by the Imperium as one of the sanctioned Abhuman species.
I wonder if they will have as special rules where you can soup them with any Imperium army OR Tau force without losing doctrines or other rules.
Not overly annoyed or surprised though as 40k is over the top sci fantasy. Wouldn't be hard to chop and swap in mag either.
kodos wrote: [
a Revolver is not necessarily easier than an automatic, the mechanics are more delicate
the main point for the revolver is that it is, it can be smaller (better concealed) suffer less from shooter failures, have less problem with ammunition quality and you can use stronger ammunition
meaning it also works with bad ammo, which would be a problem for a semi-auto but as the force for the "reload" comes from the operator, a bad bullet won't stop your gun
they fail less, but if they fail it is not a quick fix but you need to take them apart to clear it which you need a gunsmith (and secure workplace)
so talking about a revolver fire bolter round, stronger ammo is not a point (rocket propelled round), neither is concealment, so it would come down to LoV have problems with ammunition quality and are bad at shooting
not sure if this is the indented picture we should get
You're partway there, but off about some of the details.
Revolvers are generally more reliable than an equivalent semi automatics due to having fewer moving parts and are actually less delicate than an auto or semi auto. They are also also harder to conceal (though not overly so) than a semi automatic. A semi automatic (especially if single stack) can be nearly half the thickness of a similarly calibered revolver while having the same or greater magazine capacity.
As for instances of major failure, a revolver is not necessarily any more complicated to repair than a semi, usually less so.
Revolvers advantages are simplicity of operation, reliability and operability in rough conditions, often high power ammo, and faster recovery of a misfire shell.
Semi auto advantages are magazine capacity, concealability, speed of reload and and the accuracy afforded by lighter trigger pull as a result of the auto reload.
Then Col. Fosbery went and made the semi-auto revolver just to confuse things.
My dream/nightmare is a gas-operated blow-forward automatic revolver with the same obturation collar deal as the Jackhammer. Firing from the bottom cylinder of course (Ghisoni was right, dammit!).
Mr_Rose wrote: Then Col. Fosbery went and made the semi-auto revolver just to confuse things.
My dream/nightmare is a gas-operated blow-forward automatic revolver with the same obturation collar deal as the Jackhammer. Firing from the bottom cylinder of course (Ghisoni was right, dammit!).
I have something of a soft spot for matebas too because of Trigun. The revolver the main character uses isn't a true mateba, mind you, but it fires from the bottom of the cylinder like one.
Mr_Rose wrote: Then Col. Fosbery went and made the semi-auto revolver just to confuse things.
My dream/nightmare is a gas-operated blow-forward automatic revolver with the same obturation collar deal as the Jackhammer. Firing from the bottom cylinder of course (Ghisoni was right, dammit!).
I have something of a soft spot for matebas too because of Trigun.
The revolver the main character uses isn't a true mateba, mind you, but it fires from the bottom of the cylinder like one.
GitS for me, but yeah. An original Mateba is definitely on my Lottery List.
"Bolt Shotgun is stupid. Gyrojet does not work like that. Either it is a regular shotgun yeeting out packed shot, or it is just a regular gyrojet slug in which case it is just a bolter."
It also has a cylinder and a pump-action. That... why would you ever do that?
Presumably when you pump it it rotates the cylinder.
Which...works I guess, but it's not what I would call practical and seems needlessly complex. Which for a race of supposed advanced not-Dwarfs that does everything better than the Imperium in terms of engineering doesn't seem right.
Also, why is it Volkanite and not Volkite? Did GW think that volkite not good enough (even though the Imperium lost how to produce them), so they felt that they had to make volkite +1?
Can't believe I'm going to chime in on this, the shotgun. Looking at the revolving boltgun thingy it's a top break design. Double action I'd bet. The pump is to eject the spent shells all at once after the the front part of the firearm as pivoted down where there is clearly a hing point. Is that what they had in mind? Doubtful but it makes the most sense and looks like it could function that way.
"Bolt Shotgun is stupid. Gyrojet does not work like that. Either it is a regular shotgun yeeting out packed shot, or it is just a regular gyrojet slug in which case it is just a bolter."
It also has a cylinder and a pump-action. That... why would you ever do that?
Presumably when you pump it it rotates the cylinder.
Which...works I guess, but it's not what I would call practical and seems needlessly complex. Which for a race of supposed advanced not-Dwarfs that does everything better than the Imperium in terms of engineering doesn't seem right.
Also, why is it Volkanite and not Volkite? Did GW think that volkite not good enough (even though the Imperium lost how to produce them), so they felt that they had to make volkite +1?
Can't believe I'm going to chime in on this, the shotgun. Looking at the revolving boltgun thingy it's a top break design. Double action I'd bet. The pump is to eject the spent shells all at once after the the front part of the firearm as pivoted down where there is clearly a hing point. Is that what they had in mind? Doubtful but it makes the most sense and looks like it could function that way.
How is the pump going to eject all of the shells at once? That would imply a series of rods that get pushed into casings (a la Striker), wouldn't it? Where would the rods be?
Don't most break action shotguns eject shells automatically anyway?
The pump on the SPAS was to enable the user to cycle the action in case the shell type being used wasn’t strong enough to cycle it automatically. But as Royal Armouries guy is so fond of saying, it’s hard to believe that a fancy future weapon won’t have solved that through automation
Fair enough. I still think that it would have been better if it just ejected the shells automatically like a typical break action shotgun, but the pump has a plausible use now at least.
The fore-end grip on the Jackhammer is basically a charging handle, just way chunkier. No reason that can’t be the case here.
As for how “bolt” and “shotgun” works imma go back to rocket-propelled Shrapnel style cased shot. Of course that would make it a long range anti-infantry weapon so it will doubtless be a short ranged anti armour weapon because reasons. Kind of like the bike snipers the Eldar just got.
silverstu wrote: I'm just glad the rest of the weapons are so simple and pragmatic like the conversion beamer and graviton blaster. Easy to see how they work.
I didn't even noticed that they don't have a trigger until you mentioned them. I'm assuming that the button on top of the conversion weapon is meant to be what fires it, but it seems a little far? Maybe they use a neural link or some other connection. They are heavy weapons, so presumably they are meant to be used on vehicles or with power armour.
Can't actually remember what a conversion beamer does I just have memories of it being one of the quirkier weapons in Rogue Trader. But I really like the designs - really nice shapes and proportions and yeah looks like it is a button trigger maybe something through the haptic link they talked about.
Crimson wrote: This is inane. If people cannot handle bolt shotguns or whatever because it is not plausibly optimal weapon design they should have just walked away from 40K decades ago and never look back. Basically nothing in this setting makes sense, it runs 95% on the rule of cool.
I'm so tired of all these absurd generated grievances regarding everything.
Oh hush, It makes us happy to feel superior to the poor designer making minimum wage to churn out fantasy toy soldiers without adequately researching the intricacies of make believe firearms
Got to have something to look forward to in life, and this is after all the internet.
On the other hand, a models weapon is often a very prominent part of the model, and if something looks off then it can affect an individuals immersion in the game making it harder to suspend disbelief. A relatively small amount of research can avoid that. So we whinge.
1. A "shotgun". 2. Any more advantageous than any other type of bolt weapon.
To be fair, shotguns don't always fire shot. Slug ammunition is quite common. If it doesn't use shot at all then yeah, shotgun would be a misnomer. The term for a shotgun that fires exclusively slugs is called a slug gun, iirc. It should really be called something like a bolt revolving carbine, imo.
1. A "shotgun".
2. Any more advantageous than any other type of bolt weapon.
Larger caliber rounds? Like a smaller grenade launcher? Thats what I think of, bolter rounds being smaller designed to be shot in an automatic. So shorter ranger, fewer shots but hitting harder? But I'm not a gunsmith, that's just what the design suggests to me.
I guess I see things like bolt shotguns and botl revolvers and I don't assume they're using tech like that because it's strictlly better than Astartes tech, but because it's simple and robust enough to arm far larger armies. Bolters aren't simple weapons, they require exacting manufacture and extensive maintenance. by shifting from an automatically fed Godwyn bolter to a shotgun style feed, it would allow for the stopping power of a bolter better at lower cost and with reduced maintenance.
Bolter are designed to fire bursts of ammunition like assault rifles, so magazines where the rounds have to be many and smaller- which the Kin have. To me, revolver tech is successive, larger individual rounds designed to have a higher impact close up and personal. Hand cannons essentially, like Hellboy's gun, which is very dwarf-like -close up heavy hitting firepower maybe with shells similar in size to heavy Bolter shells. But thats just what to suggests to me.
Rule of cool always applies, but "cool" is subjective. I love that Ad Mech rides around on mechanical horses with glorified revolvers. Was hoping LoV would be a little closer to reality, or at least motifs that say "advanced tech" and not "future wild west."
So basically we have Grimnyr (psykers), Cthonian Berserks (melee specialists), Einhyr (their super-elites or prolly exo-suits) and a Hekaton Land Fortress (most probably a Votann version of the land train) plus a whole lot of cool tidbits. I have to admit, I was a bit wary of GW totally abandoning the "dwarfiness" of the Leagues, but those stratagems show I was wrong. Looking forward to the models.
MaCa wrote: So basically we have Grimnyr (psykers), Cthonian Berserks (melee specialists), Einhyr (their super-elites or prolly exo-suits) and a Hekaton Land Fortress (most probably a Votann version of the land train)...
And Hernkyn Pioneers, which I guess are scouts/Dwarf Miners.
MaCa wrote: So basically we have Grimnyr (psykers), Cthonian Berserks (melee specialists), Einhyr (their super-elites or prolly exo-suits) and a Hekaton Land Fortress (most probably a Votann version of the land train)...
And Hernkyn Pioneers, which I guess are scouts/Dwarf Miners.
We've hit full Swedish Chef levels of parody, here. Hernkyn blerkyn lürkyn!
Though the dropped vowels for tech like the HunTR are veering off towards Warcraft gnomish engineering
EviscerationPlague wrote: Grudgepyre is a fantastic name for a power. That's all I got to contribute.
Is WC4 the cheapest power? It seems pretty good for taking out things like custodes bikers or crisis suits, once you strip them of their ablative drones.
Bequest of the Votann mentions two heroes - either Theyns or Hesyrs. Probably Hersirs which were a Scandinavian equivalent of a Thegn. Basically a wealthy landowner who commanded troops. I wonder what the difference is in game.
Agamemnon2 wrote: I'm curious what the reference to "Searchlight" being a unit keyword means, mentioned in the Light 'Em Up stratagem card.
Probably a wargear/upgrade keyword, like how space marines’ tracked vehicles have the smokescreen keyword or harlequins can buy different specialist weapon keywords.
Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm curious what the reference to "Searchlight" being a unit keyword means, mentioned in the Light 'Em Up stratagem card.
Presumably certain vehicles will come equipped with a Searchlight, giving it the apropriate keyword, but the Votann have linked these in such a way that only one Searchlight may draw power a turn...
H.B.M.C. wrote:
MaCa wrote: So basically we have Grimnyr (psykers), Cthonian Berserks (melee specialists), Einhyr (their super-elites or prolly exo-suits) and a Hekaton Land Fortress (most probably a Votann version of the land train)...
And Hernkyn Pioneers, which I guess are scouts/Dwarf Miners.
Wasn't that the name given for the lady on the floating trike?
Olthannon wrote: Bequest of the Votann mentions two heroes - either Theyns or Hesyrs. Probably Hersirs which were a Scandinavian equivalent of a Thegn. Basically a wealthy landowner who commanded troops. I wonder what the difference is in game.
Probably just the unit they lead. Some armies have sergeants in charge of every unit, while others have Exarchs and Felarchs and Lead Players scattered around with roughly the same role.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Grudgepyre is a fantastic name for a power. That's all I got to contribute.
Is WC4 the cheapest power? It seems pretty good for taking out things like custodes bikers or crisis suits, once you strip them of their ablative drones.
WC4 is the cheapest as far as I'm aware. I'll take your word for it on the ability to kill larger models as my phone won't let me read the text of any of the cards basically.
Olthannon wrote: Bequest of the Votann mentions two heroes - either Theyns or Hesyrs. Probably Hersirs which were a Scandinavian equivalent of a Thegn. Basically a wealthy landowner who commanded troops. I wonder what the difference is in game.
One will have a hammer and a gun, while the other has a gun and a hammer. Or CC and ranged variants or something.
Olthannon wrote: Bequest of the Votann mentions two heroes - either Theyns or Hesyrs. Probably Hersirs which were a Scandinavian equivalent of a Thegn. Basically a wealthy landowner who commanded troops. I wonder what the difference is in game.
One will have a hammer and a gun, while the other has a gun and a hammer. Or CC and ranged variants or something.
You simple-minded fool.
Obviously they'll both have gun-hammers!
Olthannon wrote: Bequest of the Votann mentions two heroes - either Theyns or Hesyrs. Probably Hersirs which were a Scandinavian equivalent of a Thegn. Basically a wealthy landowner who commanded troops. I wonder what the difference is in game.
One will have a hammer and a gun, while the other has a gun and a hammer. Or CC and ranged variants or something.
I think that strat specifically states that they are not characters. Some type of unit Sargent perhaps? If so, that could be interesting. Basic grunt Sargents have 3 attacks, I'm betting these have 4. With this strat and the one that gives relics to two characters, Squats might be able to punch above their weight class.
I'm most interested in the beam weapon strat. Hit a unit and all following bolt weapons have a chance of exploding 6s, triple hits if the target is 11+ models. Talk about horde clearing. A 20+ unit of Votaan could rapid fire and average 40 hits.
Olthannon wrote: Bequest of the Votann mentions two heroes - either Theyns or Hesyrs. Probably Hersirs which were a Scandinavian equivalent of a Thegn. Basically a wealthy landowner who commanded troops. I wonder what the difference is in game.
One will have a hammer and a gun, while the other has a gun and a hammer. Or CC and ranged variants or something.
I think that strat specifically states that they are not characters. Some type of unit Sargent perhaps? If so, that could be interesting. Basic grunt Sargents have 3 attacks, I'm betting these have 4. With this strat and the one that gives relics to two characters, Squats might be able to punch above their weight class.
Hesyrs are probable leaders of the Einhyr -the exo-suit elite.
The pioneers are the bike unit that was shown off. Interesting mention of a Votann medic. From a quick glance it seems to have a very dwarf feel to it- the idea of vengeance/grudges, amplified by the judgement tokens is an interesting mechanism.
Really loving the sound of everything so far.
sounds like a release of -
Troops -Hearthkyn
Melee Troops- Bezerkers
Fast attack- Pioneers
Elite- Einhyr [exo-suit warriors]
Hekaton Land Fortress- big vehicle set.
I'd expect a light vehicle/walker/heavy trike box and a special character of some sort as well but thats a pretty solid release. Must be coming after Chaos, end of July for a possible Army box with a September/October main release at an optimistic guess.
Olthannon wrote: Bequest of the Votann mentions two heroes - either Theyns or Hesyrs. Probably Hersirs which were a Scandinavian equivalent of a Thegn. Basically a wealthy landowner who commanded troops. I wonder what the difference is in game.
One will have a hammer and a gun, while the other has a gun and a hammer. Or CC and ranged variants or something.
I think that strat specifically states that they are not characters. Some type of unit Sargent perhaps? If so, that could be interesting. Basic grunt Sargents have 3 attacks, I'm betting these have 4. With this strat and the one that gives relics to two characters, Squats might be able to punch above their weight class.
Hesyrs are probable leaders of the Einhyr -the exo-suit elite.
The pioneers are the bike unit that was shown off. Interesting mention of a Votann medic. From a quick glance it seems to have a very dwarf feel to it- the idea of vengeance/grudges, amplified by the judgement tokens is an interesting mechanism.
Really loving the sound of everything so far.
sounds like a release of -
Troops -Hearthkyn
Melee Troops- Bezerkers
Fast attack- Pioneers
Elite- Einhyr [exo-suit warriors]
Hekaton Land Fortress- big vehicle set.
I'd expect a light vehicle/walker/heavy trike box and a special character of some sort as well but thats a pretty solid release. Must be coming after Chaos, end of July for a possible Army box with a September/October main release at an optimistic guess.
That's probably spot on. I'm expecting a few more vehicles on the way, probably multi kits.
GaroRobe wrote: Cthonian Beserkers? Were the Sons of Horus Squats this whole time?
(Cthonia means underworld, so its obviously just GW recycling words, but its still funny)
I'd like to think that they're sufficiently aware of their own franchise's background that they wouldn't name a unit something like that without intending for it to be related to Horus' world. I mean, Cthonia is a *mining world* after all. I don't think that's a coincidence here.
Honestly, this could even help to provide interesting context for the Leagues' current distance from the Imperium - beyond their quite justifiable fear of the IoM's generally psychotic world view, I mean.
How do you know it isn't already a shotgun? A Shotgun-Armiger?
I suspect that like the "Everything is a cake" videos, in Votann space, everything is a shotgun.
crumby_cataphract wrote: I still think that bolter shotguns are kewl and will happily put as many of them as possible into my army of space dwarf humans. :p
Great. Still doesn't mean that making a boltgun into a "shotgun" means anything, given that the benefits of shotguns are their various customisable ammunition loads and bolters already do that, so by making a bolter "shotgun" all you're doing is reducing the weapon's rate of fire and magazine size for... no reason.
If I had to make an educated guess, the troops model we have all ready seen will be a double duty box that also makes the Berserkers. I'd also guess this box will make a couple minor characters like the medic.
So, 2 infantry boxes, jetbike box, a couple character blisters, and a tank plus variants box.
If we're lucky, some kind of walker too. 4-5 boxes, and a couple characters. That's more than what was dedicated to Custodes.
How do you know it isn't already a shotgun? A Shotgun-Armiger?
I suspect that like the "Everything is a cake" videos, in Votann space, everything is a shotgun.
crumby_cataphract wrote: I still think that bolter shotguns are kewl and will happily put as many of them as possible into my army of space dwarf humans. :p
Great. Still doesn't mean that making a boltgun into a "shotgun" means anything, given that the benefits of shotguns are their various customisable ammunition loads and bolters already do that, so by making a bolter "shotgun" all you're doing is reducing the weapon's rate of fire and magazine size for... no reason.
Nonono. You see, it's very simple: Bolter = cool. Shotgun = cool. Bolter + shotgun = keeeewl! Kewl > reasons and sense and stuff. Me want shotgun bolter, please.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Grudgepyre is a fantastic name for a power. That's all I got to contribute.
Is WC4 the cheapest power? It seems pretty good for taking out things like custodes bikers or crisis suits, once you strip them of their ablative drones.
WC4 is the cheapest as far as I'm aware. I'll take your word for it on the ability to kill larger models as my phone won't let me read the text of any of the cards basically.
It needs a little setup to get “Judgment tokens” attached to the target (but that seems to be a core army mechanic that ties into a lot of stuff so should be relatively easy) but it’s 2d6+tokens vs. the target’s Ld to erase a model. No wounds, just “is destroyed” outright. Only problem is it can’t be a character, vehicle, or monster. So high-value multi-wound infantry/cavalry/bikers seem like the optimal target.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: You simple-minded fool.
Obviously they'll both have gun-hammers!
Please: Shotgun-Hammers!
Bolt-Shotgun that shoots hammers
The Votann Hammerhail Bolt-shotgun. Also comes in the sniper variant, the Votann Stalker Hammerhail bolt-shotgun, the close support variant Votann Heavy Assault Hammerhail Bolt-shotgun, and the recursive version the Votann Assault Shotgun Hammerhail Assault Bolt-assault-shotgun-shotgun. Which I think fires shotguns shaped like hammers.
GaroRobe wrote: Cthonian Beserkers? Were the Sons of Horus Squats this whole time?
(Cthonia means underworld, so its obviously just GW recycling words, but its still funny)
I'd like to think that they're sufficiently aware of their own franchise's background that they wouldn't name a unit something like that without intending for it to be related to Horus' world. I mean, Cthonia is a *mining world* after all. I don't think that's a coincidence here.
Honestly, this could even help to provide interesting context for the Leagues' current distance from the Imperium - beyond their quite justifiable fear of the IoM's generally psychotic world view, I mean.
Isn't Cthonia another name for the Underworld? Thats the chat on Reddit and Discord.
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Agamemnon2 wrote: I really hope the "Land Fortress" lives up to its name. If it's smaller than a Leman Russ, I'm going to be very cross
Yeah I hope so, definitely has echoes of the land train. Valrak mentioned a while ago that he had heard there was a big kit coming..and GW does love their big kits..
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cuda1179 wrote: If I had to make an educated guess, the troops model we have all ready seen will be a double duty box that also makes the Berserkers. I'd also guess this box will make a couple minor characters like the medic.
So, 2 infantry boxes, jetbike box, a couple character blisters, and a tank plus variants box.
If we're lucky, some kind of walker too. 4-5 boxes, and a couple characters. That's more than what was dedicated to Custodes.
I'm thinking maybe more like an AoS release- 6 boxes, 4 characters and a special character box which would be like Sisters. I also think one of the rumour engines has a pic of what could be a squat bare arm so Beserkers could be different from the Hearthkyn.
Isn't Cthonia another name for the Underworld? Thats the chat on Reddit and Discord.
Yes, or pertaining to subterranean.
"Berserks" is a stupid name to me. It's probably the laziest and most contrived name they pulled out their rear so far.
"Hey, how do we make Berserker trademark friendly?"
"I know, let's just drop the -er! Adjectives are the same as nouns, right?"
Isn't Cthonia another name for the Underworld? Thats the chat on Reddit and Discord.
Yes, or pertaining to subterranean.
"Berserks" is a stupid name to me. It's probably the laziest and most contrived name they pulled out their rear so far.
"Hey, how do we make Berserker trademark friendly?"
"I know, let's just drop the -er! Adjectives are the same as nouns, right?"
Yeah just call them berserkers, the Cthonia part can be the trade mark friendly part..
What if we're interpreting "Land Fortress" incorrectly, and this is another of "Land's" vehicles, such as the Raider and the Speeder, only one that the Squats still have the STC for.
silverstu wrote: Isn't Cthonia another name for the Underworld? Thats the chat on Reddit and Discord.
As little faith as I have in GW to remember things, Cthonia is pretty front and centre of the new 30k edition, with the boxset and tiein books themed around it.
I wonder if it's NOT a coincidence that the Pioneer bike is in the Sons of Horus paint scheme?
H.B.M.C. wrote: What if we're interpreting "Land Fortress" incorrectly, and this is another of "Land's" vehicles, such as the Raider and the Speeder, only one that the Squats still have the STC for.
So a chunky Land Raider...
Yeah I thought of that but why would they name one of their vehicles after a human, especially when their tech predates and branches away from Imperial tech. Apparently Hekatron is a reference to giants and the greek monster " the hundred handed one"- which makes me think its tracked [something like a sand crawler?] . I think its more likely to be around that Kratos heresy tank-sized, big but not super heavy sized.
Maybe Arjac Rockfist's hammer that teleports back to him is actually a squat invention. And so that even melee only units will have ranged options and it explains how the tanks have unlimited ammo on the tabletop
"Berserks" is a stupid name to me. It's probably the laziest and most contrived name they pulled out their rear so far.
"Hey, how do we make Berserker trademark friendly?"
"I know, let's just drop the -er! Adjectives are the same as nouns, right?"
Berserk originated as a noun in English, before centuries gave us that extra 'er'.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Grudgepyre is a fantastic name for a power. That's all I got to contribute.
Is WC4 the cheapest power? It seems pretty good for taking out things like custodes bikers or crisis suits, once you strip them of their ablative drones.
WC4 is the cheapest as far as I'm aware. I'll take your word for it on the ability to kill larger models as my phone won't let me read the text of any of the cards basically.
It needs a little setup to get “Judgment tokens” attached to the target (but that seems to be a core army mechanic that ties into a lot of stuff so should be relatively easy) but it’s 2d6+tokens vs. the target’s Ld to erase a model. No wounds, just “is destroyed” outright. Only problem is it can’t be a character, vehicle, or monster. So high-value multi-wound infantry/cavalry/bikers seem like the optimal target.
GW is getting remove from play rules that completely bypass defense mechanisms out of the dumb rules closet again? Groovy.
Agamemnon2 wrote: I really hope the "Land Fortress" lives up to its name. If it's smaller than a Leman Russ, I'm going to be very cross
It might not be as tall, but it's bound to be wider.
Geifer wrote: GW is getting remove from play rules that completely bypass defense mechanisms out of the dumb rules closet again? Groovy.
Out of the closet? That's what the so-called "morale" rules do already; bypassing all the methods of strength/AP/damage/toughness/armour/wounds to remove whole models.
Geifer wrote: GW is getting remove from play rules that completely bypass defense mechanisms out of the dumb rules closet again? Groovy.
Out of the closet? That's what the so-called "morale" rules do already; bypassing all the methods of strength/AP/damage/toughness/armour/wounds to remove whole models.
Yeah, I guess. I was thinking less as a core rule and more as a weapon or power rule. Like someone's trying to one up the guy who wrote the railgun rules.
Also, can't blame a guy for trying his best to forget those morale rules even exist...
"Berserks" is a stupid name to me. It's probably the laziest and most contrived name they pulled out their rear so far.
"Hey, how do we make Berserker trademark friendly?"
"I know, let's just drop the -er! Adjectives are the same as nouns, right?"
Berserk originated as a noun in English, before centuries gave us that extra 'er'.
Hm, so it is. GW is really searching for archaic terms to use. Reivers is another example.
silverstu wrote: Isn't Cthonia another name for the Underworld? Thats the chat on Reddit and Discord.
As little faith as I have in GW to remember things, Cthonia is pretty front and centre of the new 30k edition, with the boxset and tiein books themed around it.
I wonder if it's NOT a coincidence that the Pioneer bike is in the Sons of Horus paint scheme?
The funny thing is, if this is the case is that the new HH edition has all but killed any interest that I had in 40K. HH looks to be better in almost every possible way.
On that note, has anyone noticed how the newer 40K stuff is starting to look more cartoony and more like MOBA style video games? Or am I just insane?
Togusa wrote: On that note, has anyone noticed how the newer 40K stuff is starting to look more cartoony and more like MOBA style video games? Or am I just insane?
It's been noted, not the least on the fantasy side. The preferred comparison used to be World of Warcraft and it's come up with the move away from more "historical" miniatures to embiggened beefcake models. That's been happening for over a decade by now.
On the 40k side we've had a longer period of calling models toylike, which had a way of coming up especially in the case of Marine flyers.
I'm tempted to say it's gone hand in hand with the expansion of the sculpting team. More work done by people with different sensibilities and all that.
Also worth noting that the "Eavy Metal style has changed over the decades to the current bright and clean one. It shows off the details on the models quite well, but has a way of coming across as cartoony.
Also worth noting that the "Eavy Metal style has changed over the decades to the current bright and clean one
uh... compared to the bright primary colors of the second edition era, the current 'bright and clean' style looks like autumn in London, outside a grime factory.
You'll be hard pressed to find bright primary colors in the 2nd ed Chaos codex showcase, or something drab like Catachans. Bright and happy happened on armies whose heraldry was supposed to stand out as such. On more sinister armies, not so much. Compare that to today where every army is bright and shiny, including Death Guard. The change is there.
Geifer wrote: You'll be hard pressed to find bright primary colors in the 2nd ed Chaos codex showcase, or something drab like Catachans. Bright and happy happened on armies whose heraldry was supposed to stand out as such. On more sinister armies, not so much. Compare that to today where every army is bright and shiny, including Death Guard. The change is there.
Change is there, but we have radically different eyes.
'Bright and shiny' isn't anything like what I'm seeing in cursory glance, even on ultramarines or custodes, which are supposed to be shiny.. The ultras from KT Moloch look like crimson fists without the red fists.
The brightest thing on the front page are the keyring helmets. Deathguard are muddled and muted, light greens, browns and khaki shades, with some faded purple and blue cloth on the marines.
The Imperial Knight Gallant under featured products is a bright red and white (with hazard stripes) but looks like its intentionally trying to evoke 2nd edition (or epic) stylings. Everything else looks like one wash just wasn't enough for the painter.
H.B.M.C. wrote: What if we're interpreting "Land Fortress" incorrectly, and this is another of "Land's" vehicles, such as the Raider and the Speeder, only one that the Squats still have the STC for.
I think its great to see berzerkers back in with the squats (yes squat berzerkers were a thing). I was initially worried that Gw "threw out the baby with the bathwater" when it came to redesigning them, but so far we've seen equivalents of the bikers, berzerkers and a vague rumor of some sort of "Land Fortress" (don't even joke about Arkan? Land being involved. Just Dont!!) hopefully we'll get hearthguard equivalent elites soon.
Its nice amidst these days of unbalanced codexes (and I say that as a NID player) and price rises to find something that I am genuinely excited to learn more about (sorry, no interest in Horus Heresy at all). Seems like GW are at least trying to incorporate a fair amount of the original squat background into the Leagues.
Geifer wrote: Yeah, I guess. I was thinking less as a core rule and more as a weapon or power rule. Like someone's trying to one up the guy who wrote the railgun rules.
Codices are an exercise in lurching from one paradigm to the next, and constant escalation, so I'd say your reasoning is sound.
Geifer wrote: Also, can't blame a guy for trying his best to forget those morale rules even exist...
Well, they use STCs, so why couldn't it be related?
No need to be a jerk about it.
Well, even if they were using STC technology, they would have named their vehicles in isolation from the Imperium, and Land wouldn't get his naming convention applied.
Geifer wrote: Yeah, I guess. I was thinking less as a core rule and more as a weapon or power rule. Like someone's trying to one up the guy who wrote the railgun rules.
Codices are an exercise in lurching from one paradigm to the next, and constant escalation, so I'd say your reasoning is sound.
Geifer wrote: Also, can't blame a guy for trying his best to forget those morale rules even exist...
Well, they use STCs, so why couldn't it be related?
No need to be a jerk about it.
How is that in any way "being a jerk about it"? It's a joke about the naming convention of Land's vehicles with it instead being "Hekaton Land(s)" Fortress.
silverstu wrote: Isn't Cthonia another name for the Underworld? Thats the chat on Reddit and Discord.
As little faith as I have in GW to remember things, Cthonia is pretty front and centre of the new 30k edition, with the boxset and tiein books themed around it.
I wonder if it's NOT a coincidence that the Pioneer bike is in the Sons of Horus paint scheme?
The funny thing is, if this is the case is that the new HH edition has all but killed any interest that I had in 40K. HH looks to be better in almost every possible way.
On that note, has anyone noticed how the newer 40K stuff is starting to look more cartoony and more like MOBA style video games? Or am I just insane?
You know, the color scheme and general design of that squat hover trike remind me of the Karmen from AT-43. Anyone else seeing this?
Obligatory robots.
They're fine, equal and not ambitious. Much like cloning and psykers, all negative consequences are avoided and nullified with no downside. Yay.
Not keen on the apron. Actually like the look aside from that, its far less bulky than the sample trooper we've seen.
I will wait to see what if any negative consequences or weaknesses may arise.
I would not be surprised if somewhere out there one of these Ironkin decides it can be most helpful if it were in charge, for the good of the Kin of course, and actually mean it. The article says it is rare but not unknown for them to be ambitious or be a leader.
Their very existence sets up conflict with the Adeptus Mechanicus who would either love to destroy these Ironkin and/or love to loot/study them. If the Ironkin are truly intelligent, then I could imagine them viewing the Kastelans of the Adeptus Mechanicus with something like horror, like viewing lobotomized and enslaved versions of yourself.
What I might want to know however is how they can possibly appear on the battlefield and not have their existence be known to all the Adeptus Mechanicus.
Maybe this is the final fate of the Men of Iron, hiding out among the Kin, in forms strong enough to be useful but not so strong as to arouse fear or suspicion.
What I might want to know however is how they can possibly appear on the battlefield and not have their existence be known to all the Adeptus Mechanicus.
The setting already has an actual Man of Iron who's been wandering around wearing the equivalent of a fake moustache and just claiming to be an Imperial Robot and the Mechanicus hasn't figured it out yet.
So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful
Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems
Iracundus wrote: Maybe this is the final fate of the Men of Iron, hiding out among the Kin, in forms strong enough to be useful but not so strong as to arouse fear or suspicion.
Sounds like the Kin avoided Men of Iron trouble by…..not treating them as slaves but as equals in all regards.
Even if there was some trouble, it wouldn’t have been all of them.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful
Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems
As far as I picked up they're not actual pyskers they just full on maths through the emotional sea which seems at best well a bit bullshitty.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful
Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems
It’s almost as if you and Voss are just cherry picking. On account you’re clearly cherry picking.
The Leagues depend upon their Votann. The Votann are breaking down, and they don’t know how to fix them.
And please, don’t pretend what’s been teased is therefore the totality. I know you think it’s great for a quick, aimless whine, but it’s really not.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful
Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems
As far as I picked up they're not actual pyskers they just full on maths through the emotional sea which seems at best well a bit bullshitty.
Nah, the cloneskins article said they can clone Psykers that were engineered to be not noticeable in the warp and suffer 0 mutations.
Looks nice enough, I guess. I wish GW hadn't chosen that dreaful color scheme. I dislike it a lot, and it distracts me from looking at the underlying model.
Iracundus wrote: What I might want to know however is how they can possibly appear on the battlefield and not have their existence be known to all the Adeptus Mechanicus.
Yeah, I find it hard to believe that Aiyernkyn have been around for thousands of years and no one in the Adeptus Mechanicus ever got any funny ideas.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Ad Mech don’t need to know they’re fully independent. Just of more flexible, but still non-sentient programming. Easy peasy.
"Ooooooo! It follows our sacred tenets to the letter but is a much more efficient reflection of the Omnissiah's will than any of our stuff? I'd love to get my hands on that!"
Apparently no tech priest ever said that. Very plausible.
Iracundus wrote: Maybe this is the final fate of the Men of Iron, hiding out among the Kin, in forms strong enough to be useful but not so strong as to arouse fear or suspicion.
Sounds like the Kin avoided Men of Iron trouble by…..not treating them as slaves but as equals in all regards.
Even if there was some trouble, it wouldn’t have been all of them.
I was just wondering whether the Men of Iron "devolved" into the Ironkin, or whether they are just playing dumb and they still have super intelligent versions of themselves. Not necessarily in a sinister "We'll take over the galaxy" kind of hiding but more like they realize that the best way to survive is to avoid a higher profile. Maybe the Men of Iron concluded that having people know you are powerful and intelligent just paints a target on yourself, or fosters dependence.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful
Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems
It’s almost as if you and Voss are just cherry picking. On account you’re clearly cherry picking.
And please, don’t pretend what’s been teased is therefore the totality. I know you think it’s great for a quick, aimless whine, but it’s really not.
It's almost as if that's exactly what their articles said.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful
Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems
As far as I picked up they're not actual pyskers they just full on maths through the emotional sea which seems at best well a bit bullshitty.
Not really. Imperial ships are capable of calculated jumps too. Navigators are only needed for long extended journeys.
Maybe this is how the Kin solved the problem of long distance warp travel, using mechanical intellects to do enough fast number crunching to generate multiple probable paths, outperforming the old system of non-sapient computers calculating plotted jumps. The rest of humanity went down gene engineering/mutation until there was a stable mutation that could see the warp intuitively and steer through it without having to perform an inhuman number of fast calculations.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful
Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems
As far as I picked up they're not actual pyskers they just full on maths through the emotional sea which seems at best well a bit bullshitty.
Nah, the cloneskins article said they can clone Psykers that were engineered to be not noticeable in the warp and suffer 0 mutations.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful
Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems
Seriously, this better be hype crap with a catch, but they are going to have a hell of a time walking ALL this back in the face of how excited they're making people.
Personally its turning me off, because it feels like Squats won 40k. Every single fundamental problem in the setting is simply solved, with no downside.
These things are even capable of warp-navigation, for feth's sake!
What I might want to know however is how they can possibly appear on the battlefield and not have their existence be known to all the Adeptus Mechanicus.
The setting already has an actual Man of Iron who's been wandering around wearing the equivalent of a fake moustache and just claiming to be an Imperial Robot and the Mechanicus hasn't figured it out yet.
A single one, out on the fringes, mixed with all sorts of exiles, heretics and aliens. In a galaxy of uncountable trillions, that's an anomaly that doesn't matter. Very different from 'we have completely cooperative AI completely mingled in our society, acting openly and everything is fine.'
In this particular case the lore they're building works against it, since they call out how durable the Cerebral Units are, which means there _will_ be remnants on battlefields to scavenge and analyze.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful
Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems
As far as I picked up they're not actual pyskers they just full on maths through the emotional sea which seems at best well a bit bullshitty.
Nah, the cloneskins article said they can clone Psykers that were engineered to be not noticeable in the warp and suffer 0 mutations.
They were engineered to not produce Psykers. Apart from the ones that operate the barrier tech.
Its not saying they have solved the problem of being a psyker, it's saying they have the dwarf trope of no magic.
Such was the craft of the First Ancestors that even Kin souls are engineered – they shine more dimly against the tides of the warp than their distant human cousins, with no evidence of uncontrolled psychic mutation. Indeed, only those with the appropriate psychically active cloneskein can activate the so-called barrier-tech the Kin employ to access the empyrean.
Which implies there are specific Cloneskins engineered to be Psykers, with psychic abilities that suffer 0 mutations as a result of that.
Also, since Navigators are basically lifted from Dune and in Dune they are ultimately replaced by machines that calculated their flight path, I'd be fine with machines calculating it for the squats.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful
Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems
As far as I picked up they're not actual pyskers they just full on maths through the emotional sea which seems at best well a bit bullshitty.
Nah, the cloneskins article said they can clone Psykers that were engineered to be not noticeable in the warp and suffer 0 mutations.
They were engineered to not produce Psykers. Apart from the ones that operate the barrier tech.
Its not saying they have solved the problem of being a psyker, it's saying they have the dwarf trope of no magic.
Such was the craft of the First Ancestors that even Kin souls are engineered – they shine more dimly against the tides of the warp than their distant human cousins, with no evidence of uncontrolled psychic mutation. Indeed, only those with the appropriate psychically active cloneskein can activate the so-called barrier-tech the Kin employ to access the empyrean.
Which implies there are specific Cloneskins engineered to be Psykers, with psychic abilities that suffer 0 mutations as a result of that.
The leaked Skeinwrought discipline shows that they are indeed Psykers.
I suspect the critical weakness will be the Votann. Like the dwarves in the Chronopia universe, whose animal gods went mad, I think the Votann slowing down/dying/going mad will be the big ball and chain dragging the Kin down.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful
Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems
As far as I picked up they're not actual pyskers they just full on maths through the emotional sea which seems at best well a bit bullshitty.
Nah, the cloneskins article said they can clone Psykers that were engineered to be not noticeable in the warp and suffer 0 mutations.
They were engineered to not produce Psykers. Apart from the ones that operate the barrier tech.
Its not saying they have solved the problem of being a psyker, it's saying they have the dwarf trope of no magic.
Such was the craft of the First Ancestors that even Kin souls are engineered – they shine more dimly against the tides of the warp than their distant human cousins, with no evidence of uncontrolled psychic mutation. Indeed, only those with the appropriate psychically active cloneskein can activate the so-called barrier-tech the Kin employ to access the empyrean.
Which implies there are specific Cloneskins engineered to be Psykers, with psychic abilities that suffer 0 mutations as a result of that.
No, that's something you're reading into it. It could well be their version of Navigators don't suffer from anything, but it doesn't say that.
It just says they have stopped psykers occurring randomly and it's only the Navigator types that have any ability in their society.
Vorian wrote: Also, since Navigators are basically lifted from Dune and in Dune they are ultimately replaced by machines that calculated their flight path, I'd be fine with machines calculating it for the squats.
Great. So now you need to explain why tau, eldar and especially necrons are complete feth-wits.
Though eldar at least have alternatives and downsides.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful
Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems
As far as I picked up they're not actual pyskers they just full on maths through the emotional sea which seems at best well a bit bullshitty.
Nah, the cloneskins article said they can clone Psykers that were engineered to be not noticeable in the warp and suffer 0 mutations.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful
Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems
It’s almost as if you and Voss are just cherry picking. On account you’re clearly cherry picking.
The Leagues depend upon their Votann. The Votann are breaking down, and they don’t know how to fix them.
And please, don’t pretend what’s been teased is therefore the totality. I know you think it’s great for a quick, aimless whine, but it’s really not.
I get the impression the downside to them is that the Kin are the ones enslaved too, with the Votann being Men of Stone who at some point engineered the Kin to be subservient to them...and then things went wrong. An inverse of the Men of Iron situation.
Even if the Adeptus Mechanicus buy the excuse of the Ironkin being just regular non-sapient robots, that still wouldn't stop them from wanting to acquire some as they would be able to see that the Ironkin are STC derived/descended, just like the Kastelan robots.
I think the whole Dwarves being a dying race theme will be from the Votann going slow or going mad. Fewer clone templates to choose from and batches becoming smaller or more infrequent.
I'm not sure why the Votann AI cores would matter. The squats n' bots are clearly capable in their own right. It doesn't matter if the mighty Oz spends a century or two grinding out the answer to some random question.
They've got reproduction, science, warp travel and psychics solved beyond all seeming reproach, and what looks like a happy, healthy society by modern standards, let alone 40k standards.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful
Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems
As far as I picked up they're not actual pyskers they just full on maths through the emotional sea which seems at best well a bit bullshitty.
Not really. Imperial ships are capable of calculated jumps too. Navigators are only needed for long extended journeys.
Maybe this is how the Kin solved the problem of long distance warp travel, using mechanical intellects to do enough fast number crunching to generate multiple probable paths, outperforming the old system of non-sapient computers calculating plotted jumps. The rest of humanity went down gene engineering/mutation until there was a stable mutation that could see the warp intuitively and steer through it without having to perform an inhuman number of fast calculations.
I'mma need a citation for that, they regularly make blind jumps which is to say 0 navigation or a hit and hope. The empyrean is regularly described as a sea with ebbs and flows, smooth navigation requires seeing these ebbs and flows, which would require a psyker.
Vorian wrote: Also, since Navigators are basically lifted from Dune and in Dune they are ultimately replaced by machines that calculated their flight path, I'd be fine with machines calculating it for the squats.
Great. So now you need to explain why tau, eldar and especially necrons are complete feth-wits.
Though eldar at least have alternatives and downsides.
Eldar don't need the Warp cause they've got the Webway, and Necrons have already figured out FTL without even needing the Warp, that also turns out to be way faster.
As for the T'au, they're on their way to figuring it out. Gravitic Drives already allow them Faster than Light Speeds, but are just not as fast as the other methods.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful
Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems
As far as I picked up they're not actual pyskers they just full on maths through the emotional sea which seems at best well a bit bullshitty.
Not really. Imperial ships are capable of calculated jumps too. Navigators are only needed for long extended journeys.
Maybe this is how the Kin solved the problem of long distance warp travel, using mechanical intellects to do enough fast number crunching to generate multiple probable paths, outperforming the old system of non-sapient computers calculating plotted jumps. The rest of humanity went down gene engineering/mutation until there was a stable mutation that could see the warp intuitively and steer through it without having to perform an inhuman number of fast calculations.
I'mma need a citation for that, they regularly make blind jumps which is to say 0 navigation or a hit and hope. The empyrean is regularly described as a sea with ebbs and flows, smooth navigation requires seeing these ebbs and flows, which would require a psyker.
The Dark HeresyRPGs do not require a Navigator to make jumps, but they make navigating easier. Chartist captains use charts and ply the same routes over and over, without a Navigator.
Also
It is possible for a ship to make short warp jumps of about four to five light years with a certain degree of accuracy. However, over longer distances it is necessary to steer through warp space itself. The warp is like an ocean, with currents, storms and tides that must be used or avoided. For the Imperium, only the mutated Navigators are able to see the shifting eddies of the warp and direct a ship between them, thus steering the ship towards its ultimate destination
p. 85, BFG rulebook
The quote contrasts short calculated warp jumps over the longer journeys that require extended travel in the warp and which require a Navigator. Warp travel was invented before Navigators came about. It's just that it is far slower requiring "resurfacing" into reality to get your bearings again and then doing another short jump. That would play into longer term operational and strategic mobility.
Geifer wrote: Yeah, I find it hard to believe that Aiyernkyn have been around for thousands of years and no one in the Adeptus Mechanicus ever got any funny ideas.
Considering most tech-priests are canonically about as good at "getting ideas" as a potato and about as clever as a 60s toaster, I don't find this hard to believe.
Seriously, this better be hype crap with a catch, but they are going to have a hell of a time walking ALL this back in the face of how excited they're making people. Personally its turning me off, because it feels like Squats won 40k. Every single fundamental problem in the setting is simply solved, with no downside. These things are even capable of warp-navigation, for feth's sake!
I can think of no more fitting middle finger raised to the self-important fetishistic misery porn that is the rest of the 40k setting, if this turns out to be true. I doubt it will, but I'd love it to.
Geifer wrote: Yeah, I find it hard to believe that Aiyernkyn have been around for thousands of years and no one in the Adeptus Mechanicus ever got any funny ideas.
Considering most tech-priests are canonically about as good at "getting ideas" as a potato and about as clever as a 60s toaster, I don't find this hard to believe.
Even so, they would want to get their hands on it since it is human tech, descended or related to STC designs like their own Kastelans. The Adeptus Mechanicus wants to hoard any STC related knowledge. If they did get their hands on Ironkin scrap, then they might start to realize something is different...
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: So uh
Cloning with a varied genepool and enhanced attributes
Psykers that you can mass produce with no downsides, mutations and without attracting Chaos
AI robots that are completely equal, capable of emotions and entirely dedicated to being helpful
Where's the catch? Or is there none and they just solved all problems
It’s almost as if you and Voss are just cherry picking. On account you’re clearly cherry picking.
And please, don’t pretend what’s been teased is therefore the totality. I know you think it’s great for a quick, aimless whine, but it’s really not.
It's almost as if that's exactly what their articles said.
The article says that the robots are not capable of emotions and can only imitate them to fit in. SO no, its not exactly what the articles said, I'd wager if you went through them you would find a number of other inaccuracies in your post.
I am actually thinking that as this seems relate to whole Men of Gold -> Stone -> Iron myth, I have sneaking suspension that this myth is not so mythic at all.
What if Men of Iron rebellion is what actually led to creation of Votann society? Maybe Votanns are not creations of Men of Gold but bio-engineered creation of Abominable Intellingence based on Men of Stone, to prove that humans are not master of none and the machine can exceed them in every way.
Would explain how society of AI and organics can fuction without schism for machine knows its the true master.
Society of clones created and led by ancient machines that are increasingly slowing down, going insane...
Sotahullu wrote: I am actually thinking that as this seems relate to whole Men of Gold -> Stone -> Iron myth, I have sneaking suspension that this myth is not so mythic at all.
What if Men of Iron rebellion is what actually led to creation of Votann society? Maybe Votanns are not creations of Men of Gold but bio-engineered creation of Abominable Intellingence based on Men of Stone, to prove that humans are not master of none and the machine can exceed them in every way.
Would explain how society of AI and organics can fuction without schism for machine knows its the true master.
Society of clones created and led by ancient machines that are increasingly slowing down, going insane...
Kin engineered by the Votann (men of stone) alongside the Men of Iron, only for things to go wrong and ending up in a situation they have become so integral to their society that they're worshipped and have now started breaking down. Reverse of the Humanity enslaving the Men of Iron / Stone situation where it's the Kin who are effectively enslaved.
Why is people taking Warhammer Community snipets at face value? They always paint things much better than they are.
Look at Redemptor Dreadnought articles, how it was the biggest new thing. And then with the codex we learned it literally burns its ocupants like batteries.
I'm sure there will be a good bunch of grimdark undertones in the Squat codex when released. And hopefully, it will be done with some kind of tact, to not make them mustache twirling villains after community outrage like with Tau.
The Mechanicus never looked into stealing any of the cool tech the Squats had back in the day - gyros, land trains, cyclops, etc. - so why should they be any different now with the Votann?
Look at Redemptor Dreadnought articles, how it was the biggest new thing. And then with the codex we learned it literally burns its ocupants like batteries.
Thats a stretch/mischaracterization of the fluff. It doesn't "burn" is occupants for fuel/"like batteries", it burns them out over time because of the mental and physical strain it places on their mind and body to control the suit, because the design didn't prioritize life support and sustainment functionality in the same way that the previous dreadnought classes did and thus places a greater burden on the already injured/near-death pilots that inhabit it.
Shakalooloo wrote: The Mechanicus never looked into stealing any of the cool tech the Squats had back in the day - gyros, land trains, cyclops, etc. - so why should they be any different now with the Votann?
What comes to mind is that Squats barely existed outside of Rogue Trader and many of the foundations of the 40k background, as changing is can be at times, didn't exist in cohesive form until 2nd ed. Even then the darker and more serious tone was a 3rd ed addition.
There is not that much overlap between everything that existed on Squats before they got squatted and the Mechanicus background as we know it today.
Chairman Aeon wrote: The Leagues like the Tau before them will be perfect, right up until someone in Nottingham has to grimdark them.
Tau had the benefit of turning up with glaring holes in their world view, tech base, and game performance. There are things they're consistently bad at and that hasn't changed over the years.
Even the things they did well had trade offs (like plasma: no gets hot, but lower strength). Their more positive outlook was naivety, not perfection.
Look at Redemptor Dreadnought articles, how it was the biggest new thing. And then with the codex we learned it literally burns its ocupants like batteries.
Thats a stretch/mischaracterization of the fluff. It doesn't "burn" is occupants for fuel/"like batteries", it burns them out over time because of the mental and physical strain it places on their mind and body to control the suit, because the design didn't prioritize life support and sustainment functionality in the same way that the previous dreadnought classes did and thus places a greater burden on the already injured/near-death pilots that inhabit it.
I do t think the battery analogy is too far from the mark. Ultimately the pilots are consumable entities that need replacing regularly in order for the thing to function. Remote control cars require a primary power source for the vehicle and one for the controller. Similar idea here, except the controller “power source” is a human intellect.
Given the loadout and what they mention in the article, I think we may only get a few of these guys sprinkled around the army. There could be a unit of them, but I think they're just the servitors/dark acolytes/grot orderly/ammo runt equivalent for squats. Something that tags along with a character, maybe has some attacks, but mostly soaks up damage and provides buffs.
Difference is that the pilots aren't the power source, they are pilots who are slowly killed by the strain that the machine they are piloting puts on their bodies.
GaroRobe wrote: Given the loadout and what they mention in the article, I think we may only get a few of these guys sprinkled around the army. There could be a unit of them, but I think they're just the servitors/dark acolytes/grot orderly/ammo runt equivalent for squats. Something that tags along with a character, maybe has some attacks, but mostly soaks up damage and provides buffs.
chaos0xomega wrote: Difference is that the pilots aren't the power source, they are pilots who are slowly killed by the strain that the machine they are piloting puts on their bodies.
chaos0xomega wrote: Difference is that the pilots aren't the power source, they are pilots who are slowly killed by the strain that the machine they are piloting puts on their bodies.
That’s why it’s an analogy…
What you do in the privacy of your bedroom is your business, leave me out of it!
Perhaps the Ironkin are just strait up-lied about. The imperium itself is NOT opposed to extreme bionics. Some space marines have had every limb replaced and are still battle brothers, not to mention Dreadnoughts.
If I were a Squat and had to explain an Ironkin I'd say, "Oh, Bob, yeah, he took a meltabomb to the chest and had all the right connections for super-bionics. Nothing to see here."
GaroRobe wrote: Given the loadout and what they mention in the article, I think we may only get a few of these guys sprinkled around the army. There could be a unit of them, but I think they're just the servitors/dark acolytes/grot orderly/ammo runt equivalent for squats. Something that tags along with a character, maybe has some attacks, but mostly soaks up damage and provides buffs.
Yep- I'm wondering if they appear within regular kin units or have units of their own. This guy clearly works beside a master engineer [Brôkhyr Iron-masters] and there at least 2 rumour engines that point to more of these models - maybe set of a Brôkhyr Iron-master and 2 ironkin [as opposed to servitors]. They are a bit like the forge assistant in the old Anvil of Doom.
I like how combat pilots are mentioned, suggesting possible aircraft, there being larger COG robots[ [walker kit?] as well as shock troops and I wonder if they are the combat medics as well. It makes the faction very distinct having AI robots throughout the force.
cuda1179 wrote: Perhaps the Ironkin are just strait up-lied about. The imperium itself is NOT opposed to extreme bionics. Some space marines have had every limb replaced and are still battle brothers, not to mention Dreadnoughts.
If I were a Squat and had to explain an Ironkin I'd say, "Oh, Bob, yeah, he took a meltabomb to the chest and had all the right connections for super-bionics. Nothing to see here."
Yeah, and then they look at it from the side, and want an explanation for Bob's (or rather, Roberta's)... head. 'Cause that definitely looks like a head. Not any other part of human anatomy. At all.
GaroRobe wrote: Given the loadout and what they mention in the article, I think we may only get a few of these guys sprinkled around the army. There could be a unit of them, but I think they're just the servitors/dark acolytes/grot orderly/ammo runt equivalent for squats. Something that tags along with a character, maybe has some attacks, but mostly soaks up damage and provides buffs.
Yep- I'm wondering if they appear within regular kin units or have units of their own. This guy clearly works beside a master engineer [Brôkhyr Iron-masters] and there at least 2 rumour engines that point to more of these models - maybe set of a Brôkhyr Iron-master and 2 ironkin [as opposed to servitors]. They are a bit like the forge assistant in the old Anvil of Doom.
I like how combat pilots are mentioned, suggesting possible aircraft, there being larger COG robots[ [walker kit?] as well as shock troops and I wonder if they are the combat medics as well. It makes the faction very distinct having AI robots throughout the force.
Which other rumour engine pictures are you referring to?
As an aside - does anyone remember the old Ork tinboyz ? They were pretty funny - especially the eldar one, there was a squat version too - something of a distant relation to these guys maybe..
Vorian wrote: Also, since Navigators are basically lifted from Dune and in Dune they are ultimately replaced by machines that calculated their flight path, I'd be fine with machines calculating it for the squats.
Great. So now you need to explain why tau, eldar and especially necrons are complete feth-wits.
In the case of the Tau, some idiot in R&D locked all their resources into GIANT MECHA instead of, you know, continuing developing their warp tech and/or aircraft...
Well yeah but have you watched anime? one day the Tau are going to have giant mecha the size of the universe that runs on the power of love and it is going to fistfight the Chaos Gods.
Tyran wrote: Well yeah but have you watched anime?
No, for I am a gentleman of taste and discretion.
Tyran wrote: one day the Tau are going to have giant mecha the size of the universe that runs on the power of love and it is going to fistfight the Chaos Gods.
At the rate their fanboy designer in the Studio is going, you're probably not wrong - unfortunately.
Tyran wrote: Well yeah but have you watched anime?
No, for I am a gentleman of taste and discretion.
Tyran wrote: one day the Tau are going to have giant mecha the size of the universe that runs on the power of love and it is going to fistfight the Chaos Gods.
At the rate their fanboy designer in the Studio is going, you're probably not wrong - unfortunately.
Honestly I'm surprised people would think Admech would be able to unite well enough to gather Squat tech. We've seen how Admech has it's quirks that means you would never get the entire Admech after you. Small groups led by someone powerful maybe but nothing on par with someone bringing forth the entire Admech armory to bear with full Titans since it's often difficult to get them to agree on how tech is and should be worshipped, let alone gathering it.
We've also seen that Admech, much like inquisition has been told to feth off when they don't have the power to really do something about it. So maybe a Tech-priest here and there thinks they can bully up and get some tech for themselves. Only to find themselves scrapped into a graveyard.
But how hard is it really to scavenge the remains of busted robots. Necrons get around that by being magical teleporty beasties, but given the general level of danger In The galaxy, a wee admech party just needs to lurk for a bit the swoop in and gather remains. Sounds like a rather nice background for a narrative campaign
Flinty wrote: But how hard is it really to scavenge the remains of busted robots. Necrons get around that by being magical teleporty beasties, but given the general level of danger In The galaxy, a wee admech party just needs to lurk for a bit the swoop in and gather remains. Sounds like a rather nice background for a narrative campaign
Even if an Admech party did recover the remains, and the Kin didn't recover them the information they recovered would have to get to the right poeple to have any impact in the setting. It could be lost in the piles of data, locked away in storage etc..
I imagine the Kin would go to great lengths to the recover the bodies of the fallen, plus we don't know how long the Leagues have been present in the setting - wether they have always been there or have returned somehow. The first mention of them was an explorator ship which was shocked to meet one of their vessels so they may not have been interacting with the imperium much. Plus that ship was held in a gravity weapon.. maybe the Kin were recovering something the Imperials shouldn't have..
Sooner or later the Kin would lose a battle against the Imperium, and not be in a position to recover the bodies. It's probably happened quite a few times. It's been 10,000 years, after all.
However, recovering the bodies/parts and actually making sense of the parts are two different things - particularly when the parts that you're working with are broken beyond repair (which is why the Ad Mech would be able to get its manipulators on them in the first place). Likely all that they'd be able to tell is that, "The Kin have some sort of mechanical servitor with cogitators that aren't compatible with ours. We can see what appears to be some common design elements, but they've diverged in a wildly different direction than our own designs have. We can't make heads or tails of what we're looking at."
Not impossible that a dying ironkin might have an option to destroy their thinking engine beyond recovery. Assuming they aren’t “dying” because of a shot to the brain case in the first place of course, but that would probably make the whole thing moot.
Or, y’know, this whole thing is part of why they’ve been running silent for the last however many centuries and they’re only back because the tech priest that discovered the truth has died of perfectly natural causes and his notes mysteriously erased themselves…
I can't help but think that while all those maybes people bring up may be valid in isolation, it's missing the point of the setting that coined the term grimdark pretty hard if Squats and their AI BFFs don't fail at keeping the whole thing hush hush in spite of their best efforts. Especially since they embody themes that are counter to the general tone of 40k.
It may all just be marketing articles and the codex is more nuanced* about it, but the fluff previews so far seem pretty catastrophic to me.
*Nuance and GW don't go together, but the road to disappointment needs treading.
Geifer wrote: I can't help but think that while all those maybes people bring up may be valid in isolation, it's missing the point of the setting that coined the term grimdark pretty hard if Squats and their AI BFFs don't fail at keeping the whole thing hush hush in spite of their best efforts. Especially since they embody themes that are counter to the general tone of 40k.
It may all just be marketing articles and the codex is more nuanced* about it, but the fluff previews so far seem pretty catastrophic to me.
*Nuance and GW don't go together, but the road to disappointment needs treading.
I don't really agree with it missing the grimdark aspect if the Imperium doesn't find out. If it's the Kin being extremely isolated and secretive to the point they distrust anyone but themselves, that has all sorts of powerful advanced tech but can't use them depending on the situation and has to evaluate the risks all the time, that decides to resort to extreme measures to try and ensure that the Mechanicus doesn't finds out about (i.e. wiping out their own forces if going to lose), let alone gets hold of their stuff, that lives in constant fear of being found out and somehow just narrowly avoids doing so is something that by itself would be dark. It doesn't need the Mechanicus actually finding out in order to be so.
Eumerin wrote: Sooner or later the Kin would lose a battle against the Imperium, and not be in a position to recover the bodies. It's probably happened quite a few times. It's been 10,000 years, after all.
However, recovering the bodies/parts and actually making sense of the parts are two different things - particularly when the parts that you're working with are broken beyond repair (which is why the Ad Mech would be able to get its manipulators on them in the first place). Likely all that they'd be able to tell is that, "The Kin have some sort of mechanical servitor with cogitators that aren't compatible with ours. We can see what appears to be some common design elements, but they've diverged in a wildly different direction than our own designs have. We can't make heads or tails of what we're looking at."
Which is the problem. 'They've diverged from our designs' _is_ tech heresy to the Ad Mech.
That it also may be AI (because it is), and they can't tell, would ramp fervor up to 11.
Unfamiliar scraps of machines are their whole obsession.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I don't really agree with it missing the grimdark aspect if the Imperium doesn't find out. If it's the Kin being extremely isolated and secretive to the point they distrust anyone but themselves, that has all sorts of powerful advanced tech but can't use them depending on the situation and has to evaluate the risks all the time, that decides to resort to extreme measures to try and ensure that the Mechanicus doesn't finds out about (i.e. wiping out their own forces if going to lose), let alone gets hold of their stuff, that lives in constant fear of being found out and somehow just narrowly avoids doing so is something that by itself would be dark. It doesn't need the Mechanicus actually finding out in order to be so.
That's a direction in which GW could take them, but I'm not getting that impression from the articles we have so far. It seems that the only problem to which the Squats don't have a solution to hand is the slow decay of their computer gods. On macro level that may put them right beside the besieged and declining Imperium and the dying Eldar race. But just like the Imperium always has the forces and (lately oftentimes newly invented) gadgets to pull off their famed Pyrrhic victories that keep missing the Pyrrhic part and always more space elves following the ones that tragically sacrificed themselves, I don't expect an overarching existential threat to Squatkind to impact how their stories play out. So while there is potential to fit them into their own grimdark niche even without the Mechanicus finding out about Aiyernkyn, I have no reason to believe that GW is actually going to do that. Instead they'll get to use all their toys and look awesome doing it, and any repercussions are either mentioned and not followed up on or deus exed out of existence.
Like I said, I hope I'll be proven wrong, but I'm definitely not going to believe it before I see it. There is no reason to give GW's writers the benefit of the doubt.
Well it hasn't been established if the Leagues have been in the present setting for the last 10,000 years or if they are returning. Plus they seem to be pretty isolationist - they aren't sharing their tech freely with humanity. Their guiding "gods" , the Votann have become ore distant/irratic and they are bred into their role in Votann society. doesn't sound all happy skippy to me. Plus if everything is super grim -where is the contrast?
At this stage though we have seen 3 individual models and a few bits of lore- a bit early to panic, but of course that's the Dakka way..
Personally I'm loving the sound of everything, I just hope they don't do the whole "dying race" thing- its pretty tedious..
It sounds like the Leagues have been active enough in the Millennia since the end of the Horus Heresy when the Ironheads left to at least have had a small amount of contact with them on Necromunda (as it says "minimal", implying there's still been some).
These Squats are making use of Land Trains. So probably not getting any for the Leagues themselves.
Basic members of the group are called "Drill-kyn" so it seems they might refer to themselves as "Kyn" (which i think would have been a better spelling than just "kin")
And they have usual long-lived Dwarf aspect with them living for hundreds of years.
Which is the problem. 'They've diverged from our designs' _is_ tech heresy to the Ad Mech.
That it also may be AI (because it is), and they can't tell, would ramp fervor up to 11.
Unfamiliar scraps of machines are their whole obsession.
And what are they going to do about it?
"Primarch Guilliman! Primarch Guilliman!"
"What is it?"
"We need to launch an immediate invasion of the Kyn worlds! It's possible that they've modified The Holy Omnissiah's technology!"
*pause*
"Guards! Get this cog-boy out of my chambers! In fact, get him out of this sector!"
The AdMech would care. No one else would. And it would only be those members of the AdMech that pay attention to the kyn, instead of - for example - the AdMech members that are *certain* that if they just get their hands on another half-dozen intact Starcannons (ignore the last fifty that they somehow obtained and then ruined while examining), that they'll finally figure out the Eldar secrets of plasma technology! There's likely the occasional raid. But the Imperium as a whole would probably be interested in keeping the inevitable conflict with the Squats on the back burner until the more actively hostile enemies, such as the Tyranids, Orks, and Chaos, have been dealt with.
Which is the problem. 'They've diverged from our designs' _is_ tech heresy to the Ad Mech.
That it also may be AI (because it is), and they can't tell, would ramp fervor up to 11.
Unfamiliar scraps of machines are their whole obsession.
And what are they going to do about it?
"Primarch Guilliman! Primarch Guilliman!"
"What is it?"
"We need to launch an immediate invasion of the Kyn worlds! It's possible that they've modified The Holy Omnissiah's technology!"
*pause*
"Guards! Get this cog-boy out of my chambers! In fact, get him out of this sector!"
The AdMech would care. No one else would. And it would only be those members of the AdMech that pay attention to the kyn, instead of - for example - the AdMech members that are *certain* that if they just get their hands on another half-dozen intact Starcannons (ignore the last fifty that they somehow obtained and then ruined while examining), that they'll finally figure out the Eldar secrets of plasma technology! There's likely the occasional raid. But the Imperium as a whole would probably be interested in keeping the inevitable conflict with the Squats on the back burner until the more actively hostile enemies, such as the Tyranids, Orks, and Chaos, have been dealt with.
This is it- The Kin are outside the Imperium, allied with it but thats it. The Ad Mech have no authority, the Kin would give zero Fecks what the Ad Mech think and probably meet any enquiries with a Ion Blaster pointed at the face. The Leagues are clearly as a strong as any of the Xenos Factions, they are outside the Imperium because they are too powerful to be overcome and the Imperium has more pressing things to deal with. The Ad Mech can do sod all , they aren't all powerful so all the hand wringing about "but the Ad Mech.." is pretty pointless.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anvildude wrote: I'm curious if the Land Train might be a modular kit. Like, there's a base engine, then different cars you can buy and 'attach' to it.
Well the latest Necromunda fluff has the squats living on the Land Trains so they must be massive moving communities - more like a setting for a battle rather than a game useable war machine. They will probably stay with the Squats and the Leagues will have other things. The Land Fortress could maybe have rules allowing them to combine in some way, you never know. I imagine there will be a transport option and a big weapon option [perhaps a mix of both].
Well we don't technically know if the Leagues will be considered too strong to mess with
the squats were (plus they had the comes from human stock bonus that also kept the ogryn and ratlings alive) but they've lost their home systems and those populations
With all the great rift/imperium coming apart/primeris crusade stuff i'm sure they'll be down the list but we might expect the imperium to try a few accidental fights to check their current strength
the squats were (plus they had the comes from human stock bonus that also kept the ogryn and ratlings alive) but they've lost their home systems and those populations
The Leagues are the Squats, though. I don't think it's actually been stated anywhere that they did lose the homeworlds, the Leagues were considered "extinct" to the Imperium, but that doesn't mean it was actually the case.
If the Imperium had interaction with them before in a similar vain to the original lore, and their level of tech was broadly the same 10,000 years ago (it was said they had the IronKin back then too) though, i'm not sure how they'd get around the issue of their dead worlds being investigated and having some of that tech from the Squat worlds if they actually were wiped out.
The Necromunda Squats have been said to have at least some contact with the Leagues "in the galactic core" over the millenia since the Horus Heresy ended as well.
If you go with the tyranid invasion as the reason they re gone all that would be left would be an airless rock with everything else gone (there might be the odd bit inorganic stuff left but from all the lore your not going to have masses of buildings/structures/robots etc kicking about to study
the squats were (plus they had the comes from human stock bonus that also kept the ogryn and ratlings alive) but they've lost their home systems and those populations
The Leagues are the Squats, though. I don't think it's actually been stated anywhere that they did lose the homeworlds, the Leagues were considered "extinct" to the Imperium, but that doesn't mean it was actually the case.
If the Imperium had interaction with them before in a similar vain to the original lore, and their level of tech was broadly the same 10,000 years ago (it was said they had the IronKin back then too) though, i'm not sure how they'd get around the issue of their dead worlds being investigated and having some of that tech from the Squat worlds if they actually were wiped out.
The Necromunda Squats have been said to have at least some contact with the Leagues "in the galactic core" over the millenia since the Horus Heresy ended as well.
I don’t disagree with you, but I do feel this is still a bit premature.
Outside of a Paycheck Awakening reference to “Skwats no waaaaaay”? We don’t really know what happened to keep them off the galactic stage - let alone what The Imperium believes to have happened to them.
As a proper slag for the background, this is the most excited I’ve been in a long, long time. Stuff I don’t know, but still have enough to currently speculate on!
the squats were (plus they had the comes from human stock bonus that also kept the ogryn and ratlings alive) but they've lost their home systems and those populations
The Leagues are the Squats, though. I don't think it's actually been stated anywhere that they did lose the homeworlds, the Leagues were considered "extinct" to the Imperium, but that doesn't mean it was actually the case.
If the Imperium had interaction with them before in a similar vain to the original lore, and their level of tech was broadly the same 10,000 years ago (it was said they had the IronKin back then too) though, i'm not sure how they'd get around the issue of their dead worlds being investigated and having some of that tech from the Squat worlds if they actually were wiped out.
The Necromunda Squats have been said to have at least some contact with the Leagues "in the galactic core" over the millenia since the Horus Heresy ended as well.
I don’t disagree with you, but I do feel this is still a bit premature.
Outside of a Paycheck Awakening reference to “Skwats no waaaaaay”? We don’t really know what happened to keep them off the galactic stage - let alone what The Imperium believes to have happened to them.
As a proper slag for the background, this is the most excited I’ve been in a long, long time. Stuff I don’t know, but still have enough to currently speculate on!
I'm hoping that, whatever did happen to cause the Imperium to consider them extinct, it isn't as simple as just "Tyranids ate them". There's quite a few ways that could make it more interesting, e.g. having the Imperium abandon them, just assuming they were extinct and not really bothering to check, some sort of DAoT superweapon/planet teleporter etc.
the squats were (plus they had the comes from human stock bonus that also kept the ogryn and ratlings alive) but they've lost their home systems and those populations
The Leagues are the Squats, though. I don't think it's actually been stated anywhere that they did lose the homeworlds, the Leagues were considered "extinct" to the Imperium, but that doesn't mean it was actually the case.
If the Imperium had interaction with them before in a similar vain to the original lore, and their level of tech was broadly the same 10,000 years ago (it was said they had the IronKin back then too) though, i'm not sure how they'd get around the issue of their dead worlds being investigated and having some of that tech from the Squat worlds if they actually were wiped out.
The Necromunda Squats have been said to have at least some contact with the Leagues "in the galactic core" over the millenia since the Horus Heresy ended as well.
I don’t disagree with you, but I do feel this is still a bit premature.
Outside of a Paycheck Awakening reference to “Skwats no waaaaaay”? We don’t really know what happened to keep them off the galactic stage - let alone what The Imperium believes to have happened to them.
As a proper slag for the background, this is the most excited I’ve been in a long, long time. Stuff I don’t know, but still have enough to currently speculate on!
I'm hoping that, whatever did happen to cause the Imperium to consider them extinct, it isn't as simple as just "Tyranids ate them". There's quite a few ways that could make it more interesting, e.g. having the Imperium abandon them, just assuming they were extinct and not really bothering to check, some sort of DAoT superweapon/planet teleporter etc.
I could see them deciding to sit out the horus heresy instead of taking sides and then deciding they were better off, while some world's become casualties of the crossfire and the species largely written off as a result
the squats were (plus they had the comes from human stock bonus that also kept the ogryn and ratlings alive) but they've lost their home systems and those populations
The Leagues are the Squats, though. I don't think it's actually been stated anywhere that they did lose the homeworlds, the Leagues were considered "extinct" to the Imperium, but that doesn't mean it was actually the case.
If the Imperium had interaction with them before in a similar vain to the original lore, and their level of tech was broadly the same 10,000 years ago (it was said they had the IronKin back then too) though, i'm not sure how they'd get around the issue of their dead worlds being investigated and having some of that tech from the Squat worlds if they actually were wiped out.
The Necromunda Squats have been said to have at least some contact with the Leagues "in the galactic core" over the millenia since the Horus Heresy ended as well.
I don’t disagree with you, but I do feel this is still a bit premature.
Outside of a Paycheck Awakening reference to “Skwats no waaaaaay”? We don’t really know what happened to keep them off the galactic stage - let alone what The Imperium believes to have happened to them.
As a proper slag for the background, this is the most excited I’ve been in a long, long time. Stuff I don’t know, but still have enough to currently speculate on!
I'm hoping that, whatever did happen to cause the Imperium to consider them extinct, it isn't as simple as just "Tyranids ate them". There's quite a few ways that could make it more interesting, e.g. having the Imperium abandon them, just assuming they were extinct and not really bothering to check, some sort of DAoT superweapon/planet teleporter etc.
I could see them deciding to sit out the horus heresy instead of taking sides and then deciding they were better off, while some world's become casualties of the crossfire and the species largely written off as a result
Doesn't sound overly plausible based on what we know. The Squats on Necromunda were members of the Leagues who left the galactic core to help the Imperium rebuild after the Horus Heresy.
For clarity and sake of convivial convo, I’m not claiming you’re therefore wrong.
Just…we don’t, for now, know when the Kyn properly embraced their Votann.
I say that as I feel an argument could be made that them seeing a post Heresy Imperium fall ever deeper into ignorance, they embraced their own technological abilities?
the squats were (plus they had the comes from human stock bonus that also kept the ogryn and ratlings alive) but they've lost their home systems and those populations
The Leagues are the Squats, though. I don't think it's actually been stated anywhere that they did lose the homeworlds, the Leagues were considered "extinct" to the Imperium, but that doesn't mean it was actually the case.
If the Imperium had interaction with them before in a similar vain to the original lore, and their level of tech was broadly the same 10,000 years ago (it was said they had the IronKin back then too) though, i'm not sure how they'd get around the issue of their dead worlds being investigated and having some of that tech from the Squat worlds if they actually were wiped out.
The Necromunda Squats have been said to have at least some contact with the Leagues "in the galactic core" over the millenia since the Horus Heresy ended as well.
I don’t disagree with you, but I do feel this is still a bit premature.
Outside of a Paycheck Awakening reference to “Skwats no waaaaaay”? We don’t really know what happened to keep them off the galactic stage - let alone what The Imperium believes to have happened to them.
As a proper slag for the background, this is the most excited I’ve been in a long, long time. Stuff I don’t know, but still have enough to currently speculate on!
I'm hoping that, whatever did happen to cause the Imperium to consider them extinct, it isn't as simple as just "Tyranids ate them". There's quite a few ways that could make it more interesting, e.g. having the Imperium abandon them, just assuming they were extinct and not really bothering to check, some sort of DAoT superweapon/planet teleporter etc.
If they’re going with the Leagues being a variety of different, semi-independent clans, then it could be as simple as the Leagues that had regular contact with the Imperium got wiped out, whilst those further into the galactic core were not.
the squats were (plus they had the comes from human stock bonus that also kept the ogryn and ratlings alive) but they've lost their home systems and those populations
The Leagues are the Squats, though. I don't think it's actually been stated anywhere that they did lose the homeworlds, the Leagues were considered "extinct" to the Imperium, but that doesn't mean it was actually the case.
If the Imperium had interaction with them before in a similar vain to the original lore, and their level of tech was broadly the same 10,000 years ago (it was said they had the IronKin back then too) though, i'm not sure how they'd get around the issue of their dead worlds being investigated and having some of that tech from the Squat worlds if they actually were wiped out.
The Necromunda Squats have been said to have at least some contact with the Leagues "in the galactic core" over the millenia since the Horus Heresy ended as well.
I don’t disagree with you, but I do feel this is still a bit premature.
Outside of a Paycheck Awakening reference to “Skwats no waaaaaay”? We don’t really know what happened to keep them off the galactic stage - let alone what The Imperium believes to have happened to them.
As a proper slag for the background, this is the most excited I’ve been in a long, long time. Stuff I don’t know, but still have enough to currently speculate on!
I'm hoping that, whatever did happen to cause the Imperium to consider them extinct, it isn't as simple as just "Tyranids ate them". There's quite a few ways that could make it more interesting, e.g. having the Imperium abandon them, just assuming they were extinct and not really bothering to check, some sort of DAoT superweapon/planet teleporter etc.
Wouldn't be the first time the Adeptus Administratum got entire planets forgotten about because some scribe forgot to copy over the right paperwork and found later.
the squats were (plus they had the comes from human stock bonus that also kept the ogryn and ratlings alive) but they've lost their home systems and those populations
The Leagues are the Squats, though. I don't think it's actually been stated anywhere that they did lose the homeworlds, the Leagues were considered "extinct" to the Imperium, but that doesn't mean it was actually the case.
If the Imperium had interaction with them before in a similar vain to the original lore, and their level of tech was broadly the same 10,000 years ago (it was said they had the IronKin back then too) though, i'm not sure how they'd get around the issue of their dead worlds being investigated and having some of that tech from the Squat worlds if they actually were wiped out.
The Necromunda Squats have been said to have at least some contact with the Leagues "in the galactic core" over the millenia since the Horus Heresy ended as well.
I don’t disagree with you, but I do feel this is still a bit premature.
Outside of a Paycheck Awakening reference to “Skwats no waaaaaay”? We don’t really know what happened to keep them off the galactic stage - let alone what The Imperium believes to have happened to them.
As a proper slag for the background, this is the most excited I’ve been in a long, long time. Stuff I don’t know, but still have enough to currently speculate on!
I'm hoping that, whatever did happen to cause the Imperium to consider them extinct, it isn't as simple as just "Tyranids ate them". There's quite a few ways that could make it more interesting, e.g. having the Imperium abandon them, just assuming they were extinct and not really bothering to check, some sort of DAoT superweapon/planet teleporter etc.
Well it could be that the Leagues cut off contact, perhaps post Heresy after seeing the devastation caused, isolationism is a a bit of a dwarf trait. The little thats on Lexicanium about the galactic core says that "The region suffers from frequent ionic reefs, null-zones, and nomadic singularities that make Warp travel hazardous" so a good place to retreat to. It also says that now "The Galactic Core has become the region of the Galaxy most heavily affected by the formation of the Great Rift. It is now utterly consumed by Warp Rifts and the Imperium is unsure if anything within it can even survive." so possibly why the Leagues are emerging back into the the setting.
In terms of not knowing the Leagues capabilities - they have Ion, Volkanite, graviton and conversion beamer tech, fully functional STC systems, AI tech and are not shackled by religious dogma. I'd say there's a good chance they would be a match for Imperium tech, but perhaps not the Imperium numbers.
But if the official Administratum records show that the squats were eaten by tyranids then it is true, and it is highest heresy to suggest someone should actually go check!
"It's like this: When your Majesty says, "Let a thing be done," it's as good as done — practically, it is done — because your Majesty's will is law. Your Majesty says, "Kill a gentleman," and a gentleman is told off to be killed. Consequently, that gentleman is as good as dead — practically, he is dead — and if he is dead, why not say so?"
Flinty wrote: But if the official Administratum records show that the squats were eaten by tyranids then it is true, and it is highest heresy to suggest someone should actually go check!
You'd think some Rogue Trader or Magos Explorator would nod then went anyway to loot whatever profitable stuff remained behind. I guess GW can always say some tried but Leagues wiped them out before they managed to transmit the news demise rumors were solidly overstated?
Does anyone know if this background art is something to do with the Leagues?
Appears to be art of multiple screaming human-like faces with what looks as if be sort of cables going into their eyes and they might have beards? Not a clear picture so hard to tell if that's the case. I'm assuming it's just a generic thing they use all the time but I had a look around the WarCom site and the only image that I can find this on is the original HearthKyn reveal, so no idea if this is background art that's been seen before in other places or not.
Personally, I can't say I am fond of all the bare faces, when you have a perfectly good armored faceplate/helmet. Also "Autarch-pattern" bolters....Does GW need a thesaurus? They seem to be repeating/running out of names.
Those pictures also show that their women are not bearded.
I like the full squad. The little doodad above the sergeant is very cool, as is the power axe. I like the mix of the regular lot and robots. Some of the heads are a lot more dwarfy, which I appreciate. But they could be dwarfier.
Still I like the look of the full squad. Hopefully this means the Votanni are the next release.
Also "Autarch-pattern" bolters....Does GW need a thesaurus?
Gods, yes.
-
So, any other issues aside. The proportions just aren't working for me. Some of the models are fine, but not enough. (Ironically, the leader holding his sword up looks like one of the better models to me. His buddy with the 80s-retro shades is a huge nostalgia button, which I actively dislike).
And then there is the 'yet more guns' for a game that frankly doesn't need that.
Also, I can't ever unseen the armored cup. Even on the robot, who's head has its own anatomical issues.
I think that is the point, the gold/bronze domed one is a robot squat. He has bionic legs/knees a well.
Looking at the variety of legs I do not think it is a sprue of 5 either, I could not see any obvious repeats amongst the 10.
Not entirely sold on these, as a rule they look a lot better fully helmeted with the visor down (the rail rifle one looks awesome) , but not sure if that will be an option with the amount of heads on the sprue. A lot of the bare heads just look off to me, and the way the Theyn is brandishing that sword just looks daft.
I absolutely love everything about these, including the retro nods and their weird proportions/robots.
I think people might feel better if we eventually see how these look beside other man-sized models - projections with poor depth of field or whatever aren't gonna be enough to estimate. I'm hoping they're thick and broad relative to their height when set beside, say, a Sororitas.
I'm all for every single one of these. So far, GW has done nothing with the Votann that I actively dislike. Every model has been at the very least a "Hmm, yeah, I could work with that." What I'd really love to see is if they don't make any kind of mechanical distinction between Kin and Ironkin whatsoever, at least in this kind of infantry unit (I expect there are Ironkin with much more robust frames out there). It'd just conceptually drive home the whole "Kin is Kin" thing.
My only concern/point of curiosity is where are they going with the backstory. They again pretty heavily imply that life in the leagues is pretty good for the average Kin, and since this is 40k after all, I'm wondering where the catch is. Is this some kind of elaborate Omelas scenario, or are the Leagues just figuratively cocking the snook at the grimdark excesses every other faction needs to rely on to even survive, all the while just generally having a pretty nice time?
Still not entirety sure what to think of them. Better impression than the first model, but still not quite there for me compared to Grendlesen.
I like some parts, and quite dislike others. The casual use of bionics/cybernetics and the mixed Ironkin is cool, and so far the slight retro callbacks like the goggles and such. Some of the heads feel a bit more Dwarfy which is great. But the armour proportions feel a bit off, and they're still very lacking in the Dwarf themeing. Theres some geometric pattern on one weapon and that's it.
Why is it that so much of what GW puts out these days feels over-designed from a compositional perspective?
My brain is immediately overwhelmed when I look at those new models. There is so much going on and competing for attention, that it all gets drowned out together. The swords and weapons are particularly bad when placed against the armour and belt details. It's just too much.
And I swear one of their helmet domes is so small that it's actually a secret hidden Robo-Squat.
It is. The pin-headed one is 100% an AI.
"Held in equal status in League society, Ironkin also fight shoulder to shoulder with their flesh-and-blood comrades – Kin are Kin, even in war."
Nice to see that the squats don't all have metal feet.
But since they're all clones, what's the deal with the grudge system against killing a squat? If Bob gets killed, they can just grow a new one, right?
Damn it, why must literally all of the Votann lore be so... noblebright? Equality to the max, "limiting unnecessary loss of life", it just doesn't fit 40k. Especially not humans.
Voss wrote: The proportions just aren't working for me. Some of the models are fine, but not enough. (Ironically, the leader holding his sword up looks like one of the better models to me. His buddy with the 80s-retro shades is a huge nostalgia button, which I actively dislike).
Funnily enough, these proportions are better and more humanlike than Adeptus Uglysquattus (Mk 6 excepted). Which speaks volumes how garbage the latter are seeing these are supposed to be dwarfs not humans. Go figure. They remind me of old XCOM for some reason. Also, I kinda like the leader, just wish the side of blade with longer edge was turned towards the enemy, not the one with exposed cables.
As for heads, I wish Space Wolfwolfs looked like this. These do far better future vikings than terribad faces and hairdos of SW - which, again, is telling because these are modelled to look dwarfy, not human. Again, just shows how bad old SM range is...
I guess the dome head is the squad robot? He even has metal robot legs, which BTW solves one RE. Felt that one looked too small for 60 mm base proper big robot unlike AM ones.
Agamemnon2 wrote: My only concern/point of curiosity is where are they going with the backstory. They again pretty heavily imply that life in the leagues is pretty good for the average Kin, and since this is 40k after all, I'm wondering where the catch is. Is this some kind of elaborate Omelas scenario, or are the Leagues just figuratively cocking the snook at the grimdark excesses every other faction needs to rely on to even survive, all the while just generally having a pretty nice time?
There probably is some hidden grimdark, but even Imperium would be much nicer place to live in if they had intact STC instead of toaster worshipers. Though, article downplays SM too much IMO, yes, there are dumb chapters but BA, WS, Ultramarines. Salamanders and the like also have fulfilling lives outside of war. They are just a lot busier thanks to far more threats attacking human planets, LoV are relatively isolated and shielded by Imperium.
Someone mentioned the lack of dwarf-y runes and faces on the other revealed models, and it kind of stands out here too. No symbols like aquilas, chaos stars, cogs, or anything to tie the faction together
But I don't think the OG squats had that many dwarf runes or faces plastered everywhere, and it definitely helps keep them away from generic dwarfs in space
Agamemnon2 wrote: My only concern/point of curiosity is where are they going with the backstory. They again pretty heavily imply that life in the leagues is pretty good for the average Kin, and since this is 40k after all, I'm wondering where the catch is. Is this some kind of elaborate Omelas scenario, or are the Leagues just figuratively cocking the snook at the grimdark excesses every other faction needs to rely on to even survive, all the while just generally having a pretty nice time?
There probably is some hidden grimdark, but even Imperium would be much nicer place to live in if they had intact STC instead of toaster worshipers. Though, article downplays SM too much IMO, yes, there are dumb chapters but BA, WS, Ultramarines. Salamanders and the like also have fulfilling lives outside of war. They are just a lot busier thanks to far more threats attacking human planets, LoV are relatively isolated and shielded by Imperium.
I dunno, all the squad commanders appear to be chasing the dragon, which can't be an entirely good thing... *getscoat*
Personally, I can't say I am fond of all the bare faces, when you have a perfectly good armored faceplate/helmet. Also "Autarch-pattern" bolters....Does GW need a thesaurus? They seem to be repeating/running out of names.
Those pictures also show that their women are not bearded.
Sigh...
more middling-designed armored figures. Good-enough sculpts, but gosh, this faction is looking "meh". I'm seeing almost nothing Squat-ish about them and aside from the angry dog arch, there's very little Dwarf'ish about them either. Further, except that they are short and stumpy, there's very little to differentiate them from the dozens of different semi-armored sci-fi designs from any number of companies.
Also, seeing it on a miniature, I hate the Nerf Mk.40k pistols more than ever. Luckily, it does appear to be optional and the redesign of the Plasma pistol is well done.
They look better with helmets. They also remind me of Starcraft Marines with helmets.
I'm not sure about their shoulders. They seem too high, or the heads too low.
GaroRobe wrote: But since they're all clones, what's the deal with the grudge system against killing a squat? If Bob gets killed, they can just grow a new one, right?
That's how Dark Eldar cloning works, but I don't think that's how Squats do it. As I read it the cloning thing they have going is there to produce individuals with tailored traits rather than exact copies of previous Squats. Even if they produced mature clones, which I don't believe we have any evidence of, you'd notice the difference between Drinking Buddy Bob and Blank Slate Bob right away because one of them has a lifetime of experiences while the other is fresh out of the tube.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Can someone explain their ankles? Are they not all far too thin?
The ankles are a combination of conventionally sized ankles and boots (within GW proportions, which generally means oversized feet and similarly sized or slightly narrower ankles) coupled with very voluminous pants. The latter make sense from the perspective of space suits with proper insulation. Transitioning into the ankles they just don't really narrow down but keep their size all the way down.
I don't have a problem with them and as far as I'm concerned I don't think these are anywhere close to the awful proportions on Phobos Marine leg.
Maybe I'm over-influenced by the paint scheme (there are plenty of differences in the armor after all), but I finally figured out why the Votann are inspiring this sense of deja'vu.
I really don't get what they're doing with the Dwarf aesthetics. Almost nothing about their designs give off a feeling of them being a proud martial race of mastercraftsmen with a strong sense of culture who hold their ancestors in high regard and with the Votann being an integral part of their society. It's like they suddenly remembered they didn't add anything to show that so hurriedly stuffed in a few bits on them randomly, like the Theyns backpack banner and how only a single one of their weapons (the bolter) has been shown with any sort of pattern on it, to give off the barest hints of something that's been said is meant to be part of them and the archetype as a whole.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Can someone explain their ankles? Are they not all far too thin?
The ankles are a combination of conventionally sized ankles and boots (within GW proportions, which generally means oversized feet and similarly sized or slightly narrower ankles) coupled with very voluminous pants. The latter make sense from the perspective of space suits with proper insulation. Transitioning into the ankles they just don't really narrow down but keep their size all the way down.
I don't have a problem with them and as far as I'm concerned I don't think these are anywhere close to the awful proportions on Phobos Marine leg.
Them being Dwarfs in armour reminiscent of spacesuits does explain it somewhat, they did say their armour is void-sealed after all. Still would have proffered more normal looking boots, though.
Eilif wrote: Maybe I'm over-influenced by the paint scheme (there are plenty of differences in the armor after all), but I finally figured out why the Votann are inspiring this sense of deja'vu.
Anyone remember the AT43 Karmans....
I do, some really nice models but sorry to say no I don't see much of the parallel.
Either way I think GW did well with the design direction, dipping in different conceptual routes.
I would dare to say Primaris first incarnation was the tipping point into some clean and sleek look but unfortunately they seem to be falling into the trap of decorating for the sake of decorating there.
Everyone has an idea of what 40k should look like... but only a few times GW actually took the leap into something less expectable. Age of sigmar is a perfect example of what fresh designs can achieve and I welcome that into 40k.
I like the clean look with callbacks to retro sci-fi (and thus early human expansion). I think it would feel really phoned in if it was literally just twisting nordic knots and finely chiseled longhouse heads all over the place - you don't have to have the same aesthetic as a fantasy dwarf to carry over ideology or demeanor (and for that matter, why does something have to be decorative to be artisinal? They could value clean lines).
If they had done that I would have found the faction pretty uninspiring. As for their lack of grimdark, I'm sure we will see some threads here or there regarding their failing Votann or maybe some hush hush ominous portents about AI.
I hope they get classified as 'Xenos' and not part of the Imperium in any way. I like the idea of a society that isn't a complete hellhole in this setting because their very existence IS grimdark (and echoes some Tau concepts) - alone in the vast night full of ork/chaos/imperium barbarity, they stand alone against impossible odds and hold true to their values for their own people. What's more dwarfy than that?
Gratlugg wrote: I like the clean look with callbacks to retro sci-fi (and thus early human expansion). I think it would feel really phoned in if it was literally just twisting nordic knots and finely chiseled longhouse heads all over the place - you don't have to have the same aesthetic as a fantasy dwarf to carry over ideology or demeanor (and for that matter, why does something have to be decorative to be artisinal? They could value clean lines).
If they had done that I would have found the faction pretty uninspiring. As for their lack of grimdark, I'm sure we will see some threads here or there regarding their failing Votann or maybe some hush hush ominous portents about AI.
I don't think it would be uninspired considering those things are part of the Dwarf Archetype. The Eldar are still Space Elves at their core and follow the aesthetics you'd expect of that, the settings Space Dwarfs should do the same sort of thing with realizing their archetypes look, obviously with a unique theme like the Kharadron Overlords Steampunk Sky Pirates.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I really don't get what they're doing with the Dwarf aesthetics. Almost nothing about their designs give off a feeling of them being a proud martial race of mastercraftsmen with a strong sense of culture who hold their ancestors in high regard and with the Votann being an integral part of their society. It's like they suddenly remembered they didn't add anything to show that so hurriedly stuffed in a few bits on them randomly, like the Theyns backpack banner and how only a single one of their weapons (the bolter) has been shown with any sort of pattern on it, to give off the barest hints of something that's been said is meant to be part of them and the archetype as a whole.
Thankfully, you're only one of like 2-3 people in here constantly complaining that the LoV aren't just a flat, lazy go at SPACE DWARFS.
You know that's probably not what most people want, right? And that the long history of 40K has been filled with examples of the playerbase begging GW not to just squirt out 1:1 analogues between their sci-fi and fantasy IPs (with SPACE UNDEAD/SPACE TOMB KINGS) probably being one of the more recent, controversial examples).
Also interesting that in a place like Dakka one can observe a person presenting your idea of bad design and then immediately see a post like this following it:
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: Why is it that so much of what GW puts out these days feels over-designed from a compositional perspective?
My brain is immediately overwhelmed when I look at those new models. There is so much going on and competing for attention, that it all gets drowned out together. The swords and weapons are particularly bad when placed against the armour and belt details. It's just too much.
But there isn't a lot going on with these models. Other than the ugly antique rainfall showerheads lofting over the squad leaders'(?) heads there's not a lot of puerile faction iconography or "LE release day collectible badge!" -style decorations festooned all over the squad members. This is a good thing. They look like they're wearing combat uniforms and not parade uniforms, and won't require knives and clippers to achieve that battle-ready appearance. "Belt details," are you kidding? The belt details consist of pouches and holsters-too-small-for-a gun (ie. the two critical, life-sustaining items all humanoids need to survive in the 40K setting) and a few carabiners (that, thank god, do not have anything attached to them, and will not require emergency keychain-surgery like GSC troopers do).
I don't think they are too bland or too detailed - there's just something pushing my uncanny valley button. It feels like a niche fan project rather than a GW product. Kind of have a similar view on a lot of Necromunda stuff - where "its like 40k, but wrong".
It might just be because they are new - and maybe people felt the same about Tau 20 years ago. But yeah, the more I see, the more I feel it.
I'm also trying to imagine it all with a grimdark paint scheme and Chaos Dwarf heads.
I wonder if the heads from that kit wil fit on the Necromunda squats. The Necro squat kit only has 5 heads, but these look like they'd be great for unhelmeted models or to simply individualize models in the gang.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I really don't get what they're doing with the Dwarf aesthetics. Almost nothing about their designs give off a feeling of them being a proud martial race of mastercraftsmen with a strong sense of culture who hold their ancestors in high regard and with the Votann being an integral part of their society. It's like they suddenly remembered they didn't add anything to show that so hurriedly stuffed in a few bits on them randomly, like the Theyns backpack banner and how only a single one of their weapons (the bolter) has been shown with any sort of pattern on it, to give off the barest hints of something that's been said is meant to be part of them and the archetype as a whole.
Thankfully, you're only one of like 2-3 people in here constantly complaining that the LoV aren't just a flat, lazy go at SPACE DWARFS.
You know that's probably not what most people want, right? And that the long history of 40K has been filled with examples of the playerbase begging GW not to just squirt out 1:1 analogues between their sci-fi and fantasy IPs (with SPACE UNDEAD/SPACE TOMB KINGS) probably being one of the more recent, controversial examples).
You're absolutely misconstruing what I'm saying. Nowhere did I say i want the Leagues to be an exact copy of Fantasy Dwarfs. I want the race based on the Dwarf archetype to follow the aesthetics of the Dwarf archetype to some extent, that doesn't at all mean a 1:1 copy of Fantasy Dwarfs but in space . Do you also think the Eldar are lazy for being Space Elfs? That you seem to think they can't both follow the Dwarf Aesthetic AND have a new, distinct, unique direction for it is just absurd. That's what the Khadardon Overlords did. Do you also think they're lazy for still following the Dwarf Archetype in their own way?
You're absolutely misconstruing what I'm saying. Nowhere did I say i want the Leagues to be an exact copy of Fantasy Dwarfs. I want the race based on the Dwarf archetype to follow the aesthetics of the Dwarf archetype to some extent, that doesn't at all mean a 1:1 copy of Fantasy Dwarfs but in space . Do you also think the Eldar are lazy for being Space Elfs? Or the Kharadron Overlords for still following the Dwarf Archetype in their own way? What they do is what i want these to do.
But you're describing a combination of stereotypes and branding, not an archetype.
The archetypal features of Dwarfs would be a short (pun offended) list, like: height, ruggedness, gruffness, and beards.
When you start focusing down on the in-universe culturally-valued aesthetics of hair grooming and weapon engraving you've very clearly stepped outside the bounds of "archetype" and are discussing one company's vision of Dwarfs in one setting (and probably a couple of additional contemporary companies who have all been lightly pilfering from each other for a decade or two).
Also... you realize it's, like... GOOD to challenge and evolve archetypes, right? On a fundamental level? That makes a new faction *more* interesting.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I don't think they're particularly not-dwarflike, myself (and keep in mind we've yet to see their melee unit or bulky armor boys, which may give you a much better dwarf vibe).
Also, I'd argue that Eldar are a lot more visually distinct than just 'space elves'. What are the common design elements there Slender weapons, plumes, pointy ears? Their armor and weaponry don't look much like anything from fantasy elf paradigms, at least to me, with really just their pointed ears resembling them. If anything I think most of the designs are trying to tap into how alien looking they're supposed to be, ala more Blanche-style art of the Eldar.
I wonder if people would be more happy if they just saw more full beards - short of that, I don't know what would be better suited to thos wanting fantasy dwarfs in space other than more ornate decoration and the like.
Eilif wrote: Maybe I'm over-influenced by the paint scheme (there are plenty of differences in the armor after all), but I finally figured out why the Votann are inspiring this sense of deja'vu.
Anyone remember the AT43 Karmans....
Oh yes, I will be using my Karmans as proxies. They will simply be a taller, fuzzier branch of the Votunns....
I'm digging the look of the full squad, I like the bare heads (particularly the dude with sunglasses). The weapons look pretty cool too. I am also a fan of how they incorporate the robots in with the line troops as well.
Really curious to see what the characters and vehicles look like, as well as other types of infantry. The article mentioned a missile launcher, but non of the dudes in the pictures looked like they had a missile launcher to me.
I think I'd be more excited if they just revealed the whole miniatures line out of the blue, and then they were on pre-order a month later, the trickle-feed of info for months at a time doesn't do much for me.
jaredb wrote: The article mentioned a missile launcher, but non of the dudes in the pictures looked like they had a missile launcher to me.
Yeah, we have yet to see it. It's not in the previous fluff article about Squat weapons either.
I wonder what they'll do with it. The egg armor has room for a shoulder fired missile launcher, but maybe they'll go the Dark Reaper route instead just to differentiate them from Imperial weapons.
The worst thing about this is that we're running out of classic 40k memes/rumors. RIP Squat jokes... may you enjoy renewed current edition relevance alongside the plastic SOB. We're basically just left with the plastic Thunderhawk at this point to complain/joke about unless you're a perennially unhappy Chaos or Dark Eldar player.
We've been owed a Hrud migration since that Xenos drawing in the 3rd ed rulebook. 24 years seems vintage enough to dig out, you know. Or 25 since we've mapped out 2022 already. Sounds better that way, too.
The lore very much feels like Dwarfs In Space. Yes there's some new concepts like cloning and Not Men Of Iron in there, but those are usually things that are specific to scifi and don't crop up in fantasy (unless you consider the Ironkin to be an analogue for golems) but they still seem to have a thing for mining, they're great crafters, they're generally good natured and loyal to one another and their clans but insular against outsiders without being totally isolationist, they're squat, they worship/revere their ancestors but in this case it's a giant AI (which looks exactly like the ancestor statues from Fantasy).
That's what makes the weirdly generic scifi aesthetic stranger to me. I know we've only seen the most basic grunts so far but based on the artwork and these models they don't feel very Dwarfy, but they also don't feel unique either. Change the proportions so they're normal humans and you'd not be far off any other scifi marine design.
For me the look of their vehicles is going to be a big one. We know the name of one we haven't seen yet, the "Hekaton Land Fortress", and presuming Arkhan Land didn't have anything to do with this one, it could mean almost anything big and armored.
I'm hoping against hope League tanks won't be antigrav hoverers, since there are SO many factions with largely or completely skimmer vehicles these days (all three types of Eldar, Tau, Marines, Necrons), it's beginning to look a bit lonely in the groundpounder club, you know
Either way I think GW did well with the design direction, dipping in different conceptual routes.
I would dare to say Primaris first incarnation was the tipping point into some clean and sleek look but unfortunately they seem to be falling into the trap of decorating for the sake of decorating there.
Everyone has an idea of what 40k should look like... but only a few times GW actually took the leap into something less expectable. Age of sigmar is a perfect example of what fresh designs can achieve and I welcome that into 40k.
I think we just have different prefferences design wise. I do find it interesting though that you seem to like the Age of Sigmar design which tend to be over-decorated in a way that makes chaos space marines seem modest, while also desiring a more sleek aesthetic out of your 40k figures.
I personally find AoS to be almost universally uninspring and over-designed and generally prefer the older, less-filigreed eras of GW.
The good news for you is that in many ways GW seems to be progressing down both tracks (40k and GW) in ways that you will find pleasing. The good news for me is that used GW is still plentiful (not that my backlog needs many additions) and relatively affordable.
yeah I like them! Takes me a bit to get used to something I wasn't entirely expecting but I think they look cool. Like the helmets as well as the faces. Love to see them painted in a grittier scheme and interested to see how they can be posed but looking forward to getting these!
The email says this look is "ahead of their official release" so I'm guessing they are reasonably soon after chaos.
warboss wrote: We're basically just left with the plastic Thunderhawk at this point to complain/joke about unless you're a perennially unhappy Chaos or Dark Eldar player.
...there are other sorts of Chaos or Dark Eldar players?
warboss wrote: We're basically just left with the plastic Thunderhawk at this point to complain/joke about unless you're a perennially unhappy Chaos or Dark Eldar player.
...there are other sorts of Chaos or Dark Eldar players?
Like well armed and armoured Genestealer Familiars.
Eilif wrote: Maybe I'm over-influenced by the paint scheme (there are plenty of differences in the armor after all), but I finally figured out why the Votann are inspiring this sense of deja'vu.
Honestly? These are outstanding. Each of the models has so much character. There's definitely some similarity to Starcraft marines, but that doesn't particularly bother me.
Like others have said, I hope we have the option to equip a full squad with sealed helmets. I like the faces, a lot, but the visors also look cool.
And those weapon designs! Man...I love all of them. It's genuinely so fascinating to see how each of the weapons systems clearly descends from the same tech tree as the IoM, but is more sophisticated.
I like the Ion Blasters and the magnarail rifle. I think those have an overall nice design. The sights on most of the weapons seem impractical though.
No bolters, oddly enough. I see the Ion Blasters, the Magnarail, the revolvers and the hylas, but not the volkite, the bolter and the missile launcher.
I hope you can have all of the squad wear helmets. I never liked exposed faces because of you know, bullets to the face.
tneva82 wrote: Like the iron-kin(hinted men of iron) gw has said would appear in votann squads? Who would have thought. Gw not lying.
Yeah, they're in there. I like how they're distinct, but not so distinct as they have a completely different aesthetic from the rest of the squad. Enough that if the squad came face to face with an allied Tech-Priest that one could go "Yes. I am Squat. Beep. Boop!" and probably get away with it.
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