Still Standing wrote: Valkyries are not general Imperial, they are Imperial Navy only. They are exactly the same as Avenger Strike Fighters and Emperor class battleships.
Lynata wrote: Lots of people apparently think the Navy and the Marines are the only factions that have spaceships. Hell, even the Space Cops have their own cruisers.
Yeah, it sounds like a fan-theory that's taken root and become "fact", to me. Like how people said the Templars weren't religious.
I've seen people claim that an SoB flyer would "break the fluff", and these same people often just disregard 2e fluff saying the Sisters had ships as "too old". It looks to me like us getting a flyer would be no real transgression against the fluff, really. The starship thing aside, as a large military force, the Sisters would really need access to flyers.
Troike wrote:I've seen people claim that an SoB flyer would "break the fluff", and these same people often just disregard 2e fluff saying the Sisters had ships as "too old".
I'd like them to point out where it was ever retconned. In the only place that talks about the Ecclesiarchy armies and fleets being disbanded during Thor's reforms, the SoB are said to be the exception. Sure, one could say they only count as an army. One could also say they count as both.
Also, how the hell are our Seraphim supposed to Deep-Strike without a flyer to airlift them? It's Jump Packs, not Jet Packs!
SisterSydney wrote:See, we totally need a thread to start exchanging cool soundtrack ideas for the Sisters of Battle movie....
I vote aye.
Mr Morden wrote:Don't start me thinking about the divine Kate Beckinsale kicking ass as a Sister - oh wait...........
I nominate Rhona Mitra for the role of Sister Miriya.
Can a mod please change the thread title into "Anything but the Adepta Sororitas Digital Codex" as no poster seems to care about the original topic anymore?
Kroothawk wrote: Can a mod please change the thread title into "Anything but the Adepta Sororitas Digital Codex" as no poster seems to care about the original topic anymore?
It's a discussion forum. You'd complain if we made a thread for every line of thought, and you complain if we keep it all in one place. Go find your own thread.
Kroothawk wrote: Can a mod please change the thread title into "Anything but the Adepta Sororitas Digital Codex" as no poster seems to care about the original topic anymore?
Can you stop making it worse by adding to the off-topicness?
I've got my fingers crossed that the Evicerator makes it into the Melee wargear list.
Still Standing wrote: We aint Witch Hunters anymore, we're just the army of the Church. Anti-Psycher stuff would make no sense these days, so no Null Rods.
Not so! Sisters still kill witches! And the big rulebook claims we still work with the Ordos Hereticus so...yeah.
Yeah, work with... They are the personal army of the Ecclesiarch. Sometimes they work for the Inquisition. Sometimes Space Marines and Imperial Guard do too, but they ain't Witch Hunters either. I am not saying they don't kill witches, the background is just much better if they are able to stand on their own as a legitimate fighting force without leaning on the Inquisition.
Still Standing wrote: We aint Witch Hunters anymore, we're just the army of the Church. Anti-Psycher stuff would make no sense these days, so no Null Rods.
ClockworkZion wrote:I've got my fingers crossed that the Evicerator makes it into the Melee wargear list.
If it wasn't on the melee wargear list… where would it be ? Certainly not on the shooting wargear list. Or maybe you can now throw your eviscerators with an eviscerator-thrower ! Or use squirrels to ride eviscerators into the enemy !
http://youtu.be/RgpU-SWEna0?t=2m17s
Still Standing wrote:We aint Witch Hunters anymore, we're just the army of the Church. Anti-Psycher stuff would make no sense these days, so no Null Rods.
Adamantium will still makes perfect sense, though.
Still Standing wrote: Yeah, work with... They are the personal army of the Ecclesiarch. Sometimes they work for the Inquisition. Sometimes Space Marines and Imperial Guard do too, but they ain't Witch Hunters either. I am not saying they don't kill witches, the background is just much better if they are able to stand on their own as a legitimate fighting force without leaning on the Inquisition.
Space Marines serve on Death Watch and still fight Xenos...and Guard are basically everyone's lackies.
That said, Sisters can and do root out heresy in all it's forms on a regular basis even without the Inquisition, this means dealing with psykers from time to time too (not to mention fighting them in Wars of Faith too), so having access to anti-psyker weapons would be more prudent than not.
ClockworkZion wrote:I've got my fingers crossed that the Evicerator makes it into the Melee wargear list.
If it wasn't on the melee wargear list… where would it be ? Certainly not on the shooting wargear list. Or maybe you can now throw your eviscerators with an eviscerator-thrower ! Or use squirrels to ride eviscerators into the enemy !
Locked away to unit specific entries like GW has done before.
Kroothawk wrote: Can a mod please change the thread title into "Anything but the Adepta Sororitas Digital Codex" as no poster seems to care about the original topic anymore?
Conversations diverge sometimes. Not like there's much else to say about the Digital Codex right now anyway. We picked apart all of the information we got on it.
Don't worry, I gurantee that tomorrow night, we will be discussing the Digital Codex in extreme detail.
Mr Morden wrote: So anyone hope Matrydom does not mean that you replace the dead Cannoness with St Celestine!
That'd be an... interesting fluff change. Celestine now appears by emerging from slain Sisters.
ClockworkZion wrote: I've got my fingers crossed that the Evicerator makes it into the Melee wargear list.
I'm really hoping it gets a points reduction too. A reduction of 10 would be nice, like the Rosarius. Then I can be miore justified in fielding my Canoness with one.
ClockworkZion wrote:I've got my fingers crossed that the Evicerator makes it into the Melee wargear list.
If it wasn't on the melee wargear list… where would it be ? Certainly not on the shooting wargear list. Or maybe you can now throw your eviscerators with an eviscerator-thrower ! Or use squirrels to ride eviscerators into the enemy !
http://youtu.be/RgpU-SWEna0?t=2m17s
If that weapon is not in the book SOMEBODY MUST PAY!
ClockworkZion wrote:I've got my fingers crossed that the Evicerator makes it into the Melee wargear list.
If it wasn't on the melee wargear list… where would it be ? Certainly not on the shooting wargear list. Or maybe you can now throw your eviscerators with an eviscerator-thrower ! Or use squirrels to ride eviscerators into the enemy !
http://youtu.be/RgpU-SWEna0?t=2m17s
If that weapon is not in the book SOMEBODY MUST PAY!
This squirrel is from a French children show. It's how we make sure our children all end up being flying rodent gak crazy. You can watch a bunch of episodes on YouTube, it's called Kaeloo, and I guess a bunch of episodes are translated in English. It's really, really, really mad. Especially for children. And that comes from someone who is used to Japanese movies like “Alien versus Ninja”, “Robo-Geisha”, “Machine-girl”, “Vampire girl versus frankenstein girl” and all that.
ClockworkZion wrote:Locked away to unit specific entries like GW has done before.
Then the Canoness won't have access to it, since we've seen her entry. How probable is that ? I mean, that would suck to extreme degree !
The canoness have access to it. It's extremely expensive, though. And the canoness will likely die before being able to use it. But still, she can pay for one.
Mr Morden wrote: Don't start me thinking about the divine Kate Beckinsale kicking ass as a Sister - oh wait...........
I have already bought tickets to this movie and it doesn't exist yet.
With Cate Blanchett as The Canoness, Helen Mirren and Gina Torres with an eyepatch as the Palatines, Anna Paquin and Keira Knightley as the Seraphim, Milla Johovich as the Celestian Superior, and Chloe Grace Moretz as the Novice.
Special guest appearance by Summer Glau as the Sister Repentia because psycho girl with bare feet.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: The canoness have access to it. It's extremely expensive, though. And the canoness will likely die before being able to use it. But still, she can pay for one.
Ah, forgot. I remembered that for some reason Seraphim have the only Superior with access to one at the moment, but forgot about the Canoness.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wrong thread Sydney!
SisterSydney wrote:With Cate Blanchett as The Canoness, Helen Mirren and Gina Torres with an eyepatch as the Palatines, Anna Paquin and Keira Knightley as the Seraphim, Milla Johovich as the Celestian Superior, and Chloe Grace Moretz as the Novice.
Special guest appearance by Summer Glau as the Sister Repentia because psycho girl with bare feet.
ClockworkZion wrote:I remembered that for some reason Seraphim have the only Superior with access to one at the moment, but forgot about the Canoness.
So, how come you never considered using an eviscerator on your canoness ?
Oh, wait, I know, it's because, like all of us, you never even considered taking a canoness given how much GW made her BAD ! That's a surprise .
Well I hope they get Eviscerators, Power Axes and a Jump Pack for the Cannoness, but GW does odd things, as we all know.
Supposedly Sisters get the "best" war gear, but we know better.
Also, in the new Space Marine codex it says, "...the Black Templars have gone to war alongside the devout Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas, and a complex web of mutual obligation and honour has evolved." However, Sisters and Black Templars are listed as "desperate allies" on the allies matrix? Don't they even read their own books??
Wwbushidow wrote: Well I hope they get Eviscerator, Power Axes and a Jump Pack for the Cannoness, but GW does odd things, as we all know.
Supposedly Sisters get the "best" war gear, but we know better.
Also, in the new Space Marine codex it says, "...the Black Templars have gone to war alongside the devout Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas, and a complex web of mutual obligation and honour has evolved." However, Sisters and Black Templars are listed as "desperate allies" on the allies matrix? Don't they even read their own books??
You know you can take a Power Axe -now- right? Anytime a book says "Power Weapon" you refer to what they have, and use that ruleset.
With Cate Blanchett as The Canoness, Helen Mirren and Gina Torres with an eyepatch as the Palatines, Anna Paquin and Keira Knightley as the Seraphim, Milla Johovich as the Celestian Superior, and Chloe Grace Moretz as the Novice.
Special guest appearance by Summer Glau as the Sister Repentia because psycho girl with bare feet.
I actually have a file of these...
i like the way you think! ha, ha!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wwbushidow wrote: Well I hope they get Eviscerators, Power Axes and a Jump Pack for the Cannoness, but GW does odd things, as we all know.
Supposedly Sisters get the "best" war gear, but we know better.
Also, in the new Space Marine codex it says, "...the Black Templars have gone to war alongside the devout Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas, and a complex web of mutual obligation and honour has evolved." However, Sisters and Black Templars are listed as "desperate allies" on the allies matrix? Don't they even read their own books??
what they mean is that they were "desperate allies," but black templars are now counted as generic space marines, therefor they are now "allies of convenience"
The Allies with Black Templars was/is a huge debate. The thread got locked in YMDC after both sides kept repeated the same info of their interpretation of the little "authors note" (Me being for allies of convenience) So probably for the best it doesn't get started again.
I expect her to be moved up by perhaps 25 points. Hopefully her rules stay the same. If she gains eternal warriors I'd pay closer to 180 points for her.
Lynata wrote: To be fair - as effective as she was, it always seemed a bit odd as an option ...
(would be cool for the Palatine, though - hypothetically speaking - and make her a more popular choice)
Historically, I felt a Jump Pack HQ fed into the idea that the Sisters are to jump packs the way Space Marines are to Terminator Armor. I.E. it's a special assignment generally given to veterans and such. The Seraphim are the iconic "Sisters+" int he same waya Terminator Squad is "Space Marine+" buy taking a lot of the core traits and turning them up to 11.
troy_tempest wrote:What do people think about Celestines future? Is she likely to be nerfed, or upped in points?
Given GW's track record, we could also see it happen the other way around, with the canoness being even more nerfed, and Celestine being made even better or cheaper. That's what fun with GW, you never know !
Indeed - she appears to be still in the codex in some form as she is part of the 1 click deals etc and a HQ choice.
The Cannoness has not got worse (depending on how Faith works and her Matrydom ability) but has only had a very minor improvement - Rosarius is cheaper (should have been part of her basic build but hey) and missed on things to make her really good choice - Artifcer Armour, Jump Pack etc . Alot depends on the Relics..........
I still think there is a very good Allies unit for people if stuff is mostly same or better (like Battle Sisters Squad)
St Celestine,
Dominon Squad (5) (2 Meltas),
Battle Sister Squad (5) (2 Meltas or Melta, Flamer),
2 Immolators
Exorcist.
Well at least there is one good thing about being in Australia, Codex gets released tomorrow morning for me so unlike you guys don't have to spend the next ten hours waiting around .
Madcat87 wrote: Well at least there is one good thing about being in Australia, Codex gets released tomorrow morning for me so unlike you guys don't have to spend the next ten hours waiting around .
I'm in a similar boat, as I'm busy this evening until late at night, so if I'm smart when I stumble home i'll just go to bed, and not download the codex and quickly glance at it.
If I say it enough times, I might even believe it .
Madcat87 wrote: Well at least there is one good thing about being in Australia, Codex gets released tomorrow morning for me so unlike you guys don't have to spend the next ten hours waiting around .
Are you so sure that you won'tbe locked to the release at the UK first, like the previews? It's not like OZ got those early.
J.Black wrote: I think he's just referring to the time difference: He can get some sleep and wake up to the codex, whereas we have to stay up late :(
Ah, fair enough. Well where I'm at I should be seeing the iTunes version no later than 10pm since the US releases are on EST time. So not so late for me.
Or, you know, we could exercise some sort of self-control... oh feth it, I know I'd start reading as soon as it popped myself, I'm just on US East Coast time.
SisterSydney wrote: Or, you know, we could exercise some sort of self-control... oh feth it, I know I'd start reading as soon as it popped myself, I'm just on US East Coast time.
I need to go get my credit card today so I can buy it when it comes out… or not buy it if your feedback says it sucks. And I won't have to stay up late because I'm going out for some movies anyway tonight, and I won't be back before midnight. The movies end around 11:30, but the way home is quite long, especially so late at night !
After midnight would someone kindly post a heads up of the changes to the old codex. I'm not asking for specific details. Something more along the lines of "some of the point costs changed, and they added flakk missiles" type of thing. I don't play sisters I'm just curious.
So we're having a countdown for... the ability to purchase almost the exact same codex you already own for an additional 35$ and that you can now buy the same models you already own but in a non-optimized over-costed boxset on the GW store?..
Kirasu wrote: So we're having a countdown for... the ability to purchase almost the exact same codex you already own for an additional 35$ and that you can now buy the same models you already own but in a non-optimized over-costed boxset on the GW store?..
Sign me up!
Almost the exact same codex except for:
- Points changes
- unit changes
- New relics
- Warlord Traits
- New Fluff
- New Artwork
- Apocalypse Formations
- Missions
- Changes to the faith mechanic
So yeah, almost exactly the same except for those major changes.
Oh and no one is forcing you to buy models through 1-click. The separate models are still there if you don't like the 1-click loadouts. Don't let that keep you from grinding that axe though!
Kirasu wrote: So we're having a countdown for... the ability to purchase almost the exact same codex you already own for an additional 35$ and that you can now buy the same models you already own but in a non-optimized over-costed boxset on the GW store?..
Sign me up!
Quit being dense Kirasu, it's not "almost the exact same" codex, it's a lot longer for one.
And that box set is the same cost as the models already are, so they aren't anymore overcosted then they already where.
So would you kindly stuff it? We've already been hounded about all of that and really don't care. We're getting something which tends to be a lot better than the nothing we've been getting. GW is at least trying to show us some level of support (when is the last time Sisters got to hog the front page of the website again? I know it wasn't in 2011 as that was focused on the Fantasy release that came out at the same time). So please take your rainy parade somewhere else, we're allowed to be excited and if we end up depressed and morose because if it, then it's just our fault.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And we're now in the range of "4 hours and less". Weeeee.
Thank god I'm in school. Gives me something to pass the time while I wait.
Downloading now. And you guys laughed at my constant refreshing.
There goes any work I was hoping to do for the rest of the day.
I'll start live blogging in a second.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Warlord Traits
1) Fear
2) 5+ Shield of Faith for Warlord's Unit
3) Reroll DTW
4) Rage
5) 12" Warlord Leadership bubble for Act of Faith or War Hymns
6) Stubborn
Army Special Rules: Acts of Faith are Leadership Test now. All units with Shield of Faith have Adamantium Will If a Martyrdom unit dies, all units with Act of Faith special rule pass all Leadership tests until end of your next turn.
No mention of faith points. You can just do your act every turn for a leadership test.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Canoness AOF is Hatred in either Assault Phase.
AoF not limited to your turn.
Command Squad gets Fleet, Crusader, MTC AOF.
Priests can use War Hymns at beginning of Sub Phase for one effect
- Priest and unit Reroll all failed armor and invul until end of phase
- Smash special rule for priest
- Priest and unit gets reroll to wound
Automatically Appended Next Post: Holy gak, priests are good?
Acts of Faith are Leadership Test now. [...] If a Martyrdom unit dies, all units with Act of Faith special rule pass all Leadership tests until end of your next turn.
No mention of faith points. You can just do your act every turn for a leadership test.
Now THAT is a pretty powerful rule, compared to the previous Martyrdom rule. And people said my fandex's rules were overpowered! They were tame compared to this
Neural Whips are S User, AP3, and get Shred against units with Ld 8 or less.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Blessed standard is 12" reroll morale fear and pinning.
Laud hailer is reroll AoF rolls within 12"
Simulacrum allows 2 AOF for one unit. One per phase. If you lose the Simulacrum from casualties, no more AOF for the rest of the battle.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Litanies of Faith. Bearer and unit automatically pass Aof or War Hymns.
Cloak of StA - Reroll all failed Armour and SoF invuls
Mantle of Ophelia - Eternal Warrior
Blade of Admonition - S+2 AP3, Master Crafter
Book of St Lucius - All friendly within 12" auto pass Fear or Regroup
Sacred Banner of the order - All friendly within 12" have +1 att and reroll failed morale, fear and pinning
Mace of Valaan - S+2 AP4, Melee, Chaos-Bane, Concussive, Master Crafter, Gets fleshbane and armourbane when wielder is within 6" of one or more models wityh the Daemon Special Rule
Automatically Appended Next Post: Eviscerator is on Melee list for 30. Power weapon for 15
Inferno Pistol on Ranged Weapon but is canoness only.
Combis are still 10
PP are still 15
Specials are 5 for Storm, 5 for Flamer, 10 for melta
Heavies are Bolter 10, Flamer 10, MM 10
Vehicles - SB 5, Dozer 5, EA 10, HK 10, Laud 10
Relics
BOSL - 5!!!
Litanies - 15
Cloak - 20
Mace - 25 (Priest only)
Mantle - 25
Blade of A - 30 (canoness only, replaces one weapon)
Celestine 20 point increase Uriah 10 point increase, drop in WS/BS and Ld by 1
EBC is 3 Arcos for 30, extra arcos are 10 each. DCA or Crusader cost 5 to replace. Rhino or Immo DT. Requires a Priest to take.
Kyrinov is nowhere to be seen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shandara wrote: So all AOF are for a full game turn now at least?
Celestine big hit, ouch.
Phase but can be used on opponent's turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: SCS - 50 point drop! Hospitaller costs 10, Dialogous costs 5. Dialogous can take relics. Can take standards for 15/40. Simulacrum 10. Any Celestian can take Melee, Ranged, Special or Heavy!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: BSS - Sups can take Melee so Eviscerators are back. 30 points.
Immo 60 points. 20 point decrease from MM version!!! Free mult-melta, not fast or anything like that. No fire points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Celestians - 10 point decrease for squad, 1 decrease for each additional. 1 Special and 1 Special or heavy. Superior can take melee or ranged. Still means they have the wrong act of faith.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Repentia, 5 pt decrease for squad. 3 pts less for each additional. May take a dedicated transport.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Repentia do not have FNP naturally. but have SoF, fleet, rage, fearless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seraphim. 5 pts decrease for base squad. Hand flamers 10 point decrease per. Inferno pistols same. Does not come with superior. Sup costs 10 points. Sup can only buy chainsword, power sword, or plasma pistol.
pretre wrote: Celestine 20 point increase
Uriah 10 point increase, drop in WS/BS and Ld by 1
EBC is 3 Arcos for 30, extra arcos are 10 each. DCA or Crusader cost 5 to replace. Rhino or Immo DT. Requires a Priest to take.
Kyrinov is nowhere to be seen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shandara wrote: So all AOF are for a full game turn now at least?
Celestine big hit, ouch.
Phase but can be used on opponent's turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: SCS - 50 point drop! Hospitaller costs 10, Dialogous costs 5. Dialogous can take relics. Can take standards for 15/40. Simulacrum 10. Any Celestian can take Melee, Ranged, Special or Heavy!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: BSS - Sups can take Melee so Eviscerators are back. 30 points.
Whoa wait a sec.. it can be 10 arcos for 100? That's a huge decrease in the cost of arcos.
Dominions, 5 point decrease. 10 point vet sup. Simulacrum 10. Four dominions can take specials. No size requirement.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Exorcist, 10 point decrease. Skyfire, Interceptor, Ignores Cover.
Spoiler:
Okay, now that you shat yourself, that part was a lie. 10 point decrease is true though. 13/11/10, 3 HP, Free Searchlight and Smoke
Automatically Appended Next Post: Penitent Engine, 5 point decrease per. 3 attacks, no more D6+1. Rage, SoF, Unstoppable (ignore shaken and stunned). Still Open Topped.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rets. 5 Point decrease. 10 pts for Vet. Simulacrum for 10. four get heavies. So more expensive by 25 for 4 HB in one squad.
5 Rets - 60
Simulacrum - 10
4 HB - 40
Vet - 10
120 Yuck. They got worse for 2 AOF per game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Only one AoF per unit per phase. You can only use AoF if all models have AoF or War Hymns.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 3 Missions: Recover the Relics (check objectives for holy relics to get bonus VP), Defend the Shrine (defend a center thing that gives all units with AOF reroll invuls and +1 leadership), Purge the Arch Heretic (Kill Points with bonus for enemy warlord)
Yeah, definitely seems playable, just very, very different from before.
Everything reads as an alpha-strike/suicide unit to me right now... setup, then burn all your AOF in one turn and hopefully do enough damage that there is not enough left for a scary retaliation.
Of course, this is why having acts of faith specific to only certain units isn't going to work when one of the acts of faith is an assault unit and we don't have any assault units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Pretre:
Any Celestian can take Melee, Ranged, Special or Heavy!!!
Simulacrum allows 2 AOF for one unit. One per phase. If you lose the Simulacrum from casualties, no more AOF for the rest of the battle.
2 AoF per game with PE being the main one for troops unit is pretty nice, it front loads all of the extra dakka fro m faith into the first couple of turns.
So units with AoF only have it once per game or twice with the Simulacrum. How are faith points generated or are they gone?
Dominions ignore cover AoF is well tailored for melta shots to vehicles with a jink.
Seraphin hand flamers dropping from 20 to 10 and the AoF being shred is pretty fierce. The unit is still fragile but what is it 8 s3 flamers on a squad of 5 for 115?
3+FNP on an act of faith seems better than striking after being killed. Repentia seem like a very tricky unit to use, but have gone down in price.
Retributors can go on the shelf for a few years until sisters get their 8th edition codex. 10 point decrease in the av13 exorcist in a meta that has a lot of s7 dakka. Triple exorcists will be as common in a sisters list as triple annihilation barges are with necrons.
Feth it, I told myself I wouldn't come here until I'd read the thing fully (and I've averted my eyes from all of your spoiler-laden posts), but I just have to highlight something- our fluff numbers have been retconned up! Minor Orders can now be up to a thousand strong! Very, very pleasantly surprised to see this. The relatively low numbers of Sisters in the fluff never quite made sense to me, so this was very positive to see.
Priests look like a mistake, they're a little too good for 25pts. That said, it looks like War Hymns is rolled against Ld7 so it's not going to be a very reliable act.
As has already been noticed, HB Retributors are no longer a worthwhile choice (in any configuration) which is a real bummer.
Wow. I hope you guys are pulling my leg. Sisters got me back into 40k, and these rules might get me out of it again. Why didn't GW just Squat the girls and kill them swiftly instead of the slow, painful death?
AoF was one of the only thing that made SoB viable as an army. So now only once per game for Rending, and ONLY if you roll 6s? That really stinks!! I may not even buy this now.
Amerikon wrote: Priests look like a mistake, they're a little too good for 25pts. That said, it looks like War Hymns is rolled against Ld7 so it's not going to be a very reliable act.
Litanies of Faith, 15 points, autopass all faith checks and war hymns.
Damn, one per army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Uriah gets War Hymns though and is stupid good now.
Wwbushidow wrote: Wow. I hope you guys are pulling my leg. Sisters got me back into 40k, and these rules might get me out of it again. Why didn't GW just Squat the girls and kill them swiftly instead of the slow, painful death?
AoF was one of the only thing that made SoB viable as an army. So now only once per game for Rending, and ONLY if you roll 6s? That really stinks!! I may not even buy this now.
You're judging a ruleset that hasn't seen one game outside of GW headquarters how can you really be 100% sure that this ruleset is that bad?
Trying to figure out if the Canoness is viable now. The "re-roll armor saves" that the Cloak of St Aspira grants, I'm guessing doesn't apply to the Rosarius, because that would be pretty strong.
Her act is pretty weak given that cheap priests allow for "Hatred spam" which is also disappointing given that you couldn't have some cool synergy with a Canoness + Priest + Celestian unit.
My gut says that the Canoness is an "ok" second HQ choice but Celestine is still a stronger choice if you're only taking one. We'll have to be a lot more careful with Celestine as well.
Amerikon wrote: Trying to figure out if the Canoness is viable now. The "re-roll armor saves" that the Cloak of St Aspira grants, I'm guessing doesn't apply to the Rosarius, because that would be pretty strong.
It says Shield of Faith invuls only, but normal armor
Her act is pretty weak given that cheap priests allow for "Hatred spam" which is also disappointing given that you couldn't have some cool synergy with a Canoness + Priest + Celestian unit.
My gut says that the Canoness is an "ok" second HQ choice but Celestine is still a stronger choice if you're only taking one. We'll have to be a lot more careful with Celestine as well.
Yep. Seraphim bodyguard is probably required now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Jacobus is just badass. Holy crap.
Celestine's Warlord Trait is interesting. In an army with a lot of Priests, she makes a 12" bubble of Ld10 for War Hymns. Maybe Celestine 3.0 is no longer an in-your-face harassment unit and more of a support/counter-charge unit?
Amerikon wrote: Trying to figure out if the Canoness is viable now. The "re-roll armor saves" that the Cloak of St Aspira grants, I'm guessing doesn't apply to the Rosarius, because that would be pretty strong.
It says Shield of Faith invuls only, but normal armor
So the save granted by a Rosarius is not considered an "armor saving throw", correct?
Amerikon wrote: Celestine's Warlord Trait is interesting. In an army with a lot of Priests, she makes a 12" bubble of Ld10 for War Hymns. Maybe Celestine 3.0 is no longer an in-your-face harassment unit and more of a support/counter-charge unit?
Amerikon wrote: Trying to figure out if the Canoness is viable now. The "re-roll armor saves" that the Cloak of St Aspira grants, I'm guessing doesn't apply to the Rosarius, because that would be pretty strong.
It says Shield of Faith invuls only, but normal armor
So the save granted by a Rosarius is not considered an "armor saving throw", correct?
Radish wrote: Dominion's AoF is that they ignore cover? isn't that really redundant?
Meltaguns.
Yeah, that has really reinforced that Dominions take meltas, and Seras take flamers. The points drop for Heavy Flamers means that I'll probably auto-include one in every BSS.
Yeah but the ability is totally useless for flamers so it would be nice if they had something both could benefit from. I will admit I haven't played 40k in 2-3 years so I have no idea how the meta is anymore so maybe it's not a big deal.
Gonna wait for some people to think up army lists to see if I should go and get my Sisters army out of the box I put all my warhammer stuff in that I was planning on selling. The book looks pretty nice but I have lost the ability to judge how decent stuff is.
Thanks for the summary, pretre. A lot of changes, a lot of to digest. I'll have to do a lot of thinking over the following weeks. The army looks like it will be fun/easy? to synergise/units synergies well, I like that.
Well, when I think about it, I guess I LIKE AoF changes for the following reasons (from my personal experience):
- Simulacrum is useful now, almost mandatory, grants double the amount of AoF (not really a +)
- AoF tests now are more reliable to pass
- AoF once per game and twice with Simulacrum aren't such a big nerf. I usually only make one-two successful tests per game
Way more changes than I expected. A points drop for the exorcist - wtf? Celestine now has hit and run - amazing. I'm actually relieved she can only ressurect once.
I agree with Pretre.. priests are just unbelievably good.. cheapest HQ in the game too? And they are still 0-5 and take up no slot!
On the downside - PEs and retributors hit with a nerf stick. WIll still take em though Once per game AOF does slightly sadden me as well, but its probably time to accept we now have a new codex.. 1st game on Sunday *bring it on*!
S'jet wrote: You can take 1 battle conclave for each priest/jacobus. 6 Battle Conclaves anyone?
Arco-spam!
What is that 625 points for 50 Arcos and 5 Priests which take up no slots?
It's just that, sadly, Immo is only 11/11/10 with 6++. And with all the AoE abilities we seem to have gotten and buffinf units I'll try to build a foot list. It's probably because it was carhammer in 5 edition and I want something totally different.
- Simulacrum is useful now, almost mandatory, grants double the amount of AoF (not really a +)
I'm not sure how many Acts of Faith are even worth the 10pts for a second attempt. Naturally, it seems that the Seras have the Act that I'd most like to use twice, but unfortunately they're the one unit that can't take a Simulacrum. It might turn out that the plain-Jane Battle Sisters "re-roll ones" act is the one most worth buying the Simulacrum for.
Tried getting the eBook version and it won't accept my card. I think my bank is keeping it from going through. I'll just wait for the iTunes version instead then.
Wow alot to take in from the dex. Interesting 'fix' on the AoF, although I suppose it does scale now.
Anyone notice rhinos actually went up? And we lost the inferno rounds on the Immo HB...shame I liked them.
Pretty impressed overall. I must say i'm glad AoF are just a ld test, working out what I had to roll did feel like a real pain. Not sure it's worth losing the ability to try every turn, but it is more fluffy in the one-use aspect. HB Rets are dead sadly.
Are people gonna take stormbolters on their doms or has it gotta be melta all the way? The ignore cover for against Wave Serpents will be pretty sweet...
S'jet wrote: As priests are looking pretty awesome, how would you guys equip them do you think? keep them cheap, or gear 'em up?
They're probably best cheap and hiding in the back of their squad. +1 pt for a bolt pistol might be worth it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
evildrcheese wrote: Anyone notice rhinos actually went up? And we lost the inferno rounds on the Immo HB...shame I liked them.
I did notice the 5pt bump. It's a pretty silly change, since it doesn't seem to line up at all with the recosting of other vehicles. And the removal of the special HB rounds makes the HB Immo even more absurd. Now it's what, 20 pts more than an identical SM Razorback?
In the WD list, The MM Immo was the only one worth taking and now that they (inexplicably) slashed 20pts off the price, it's even more of a bargain. MM Immo spam with 5 lady BSSs packing Flamer/Hvy Flamer? That could be a pretty slick list.
Nice, we got Adamantium Will back. Every unit with Shield of Faith has it now!
One interesting thing I noticed is that Seraphim squads are not required to take a Superior, who is now an upgrade. Something to do with their models being gone, I guess.
To convert... I literally just used: http://www.zamzar.com and it came out beautifully. High-rez and everything I could want. I duplicated the pdf and trimmed out everything but the reference pages and am good to go. One full-sized, 208 page codex, and one 10 page reference file to print and laminate.
Sounds like some of my favorites got hit with the nerf bat. Nice that Rets can take a bloody transport now though! Saves me load'em turn one. Be good if we had something they could actually assault out of though.
I suppose it's time to start digging up models that can be used as female priests. And DCA. Lots and lots and lots of DCA.
So just want to throw this out there, I finished fixing up my excel sheet, haven't double checked it but using a list I fielded last night and not upgrading to Veterans my list dropped by 58 points. If I did upgrade everyone to Veterans Army cost went down by 8 points.
My list for those interested.
Spoiler:
HQ
Celestine - 135 (+20 points)
Troops -
BSS w/ melta, flamer, rhino - 175 (No Change)
BSS w/ melta, flamer, rhino - 175 (No Change)
Fast -
8 x Seraphim w/ 2xDual hand flamer, Superior - 150 (-15 points)
5 x dominion w/ 2 x flamer, Combi-flamer, Immolator w/TL-MM - 145 (-25 points)
5 x dominion w/ 2 x melta, Combi-melta, melta bombs, Immolator w/TL-MM - 160 (-25 points)
Heavy-
Exorcist - 125 (-10 points)
Exorcist - 125 (-10 points)
6 x Retributor - 4 x HB, Simulacrum, Stormbolter - 127 (+7 points)
BSS - upgraded, ashame they're still the only troop choice but I guess I wasn't expecting much
Fast
Seraphim were nerfed some due to the change in faith system.
Dominion - upgrade by a long shot. I see these as the biggest upgrade
Heavy
Exorcists -- about the same
Rets -- heavy bolter version is nerfed, but the heavy flamer version has been upgraded
Pen engines -- nerfed, but noone will notice because noone used them anyway
Special
celestians -- upgrade, but i'm not sure its enough for my tastes
Repentia -- upgrade, better faith ability and better due to transports
others
the priests were upgraded but still are independent characters, so you'll be giving up on any game with kill points if you use them
- conclaves were nerfed because 'power weapon' was changed to 'power sword'
- cannoness was sorta upgraded by default, she's cheap and is useful when she dies
-St Celestine -- nerfed, now limited in usefulness. I'm not sure what i'll do against MC's now but I guess she's better at killing SM's
-Uriah -- greatly upgraded. He'll be my go-to-guy now
-command squads -- actually don't look too bad at first glance
-rhinos -- nerf due to more expensive
-immolators -- upgraded, significantly cheaper. will be using them MUCH more now
We'll see if the upsides balance out the nerf bat. I'm
holy crap faith just got worse...
"Unless stated otherwise, a unit can only attempt to use an Act of Faith once per game and a unit cannot attempt to use more than one Act of Faith in the same phase."
Uh... Did I miss something? I thought for sure the iBooks version was listed at $32.99 like the ebook version. But now it's $39.99!?!??!? That *really* sticks in my craw. GW, you're really treading on thin ice there...
So someone on the fansite for GW Facebook page is saying Immolator's can only snapshot if they move at all. I'm having a hard time believing this, I would think it would be the same as any other tank, full BS at combat speed and snapshots at cruising speed. I pre-ordered digital edition so I have to wait until midnight to read for myself. Can anyone please confirm or deny this?
edweird wrote: holy crap faith just got worse...
"Unless stated otherwise, a unit can only attempt to use an Act of Faith once per game and a unit cannot attempt to use more than one Act of Faith in the same phase."
You get two per game if you have a Standard................and theres some other stuff to finese this a bit
@ Spidie its ready now Immolator, can't see anything that marks it as not the same as a normal vehicle - now with free upgrade to multimelta and searchlight...........
So seems like reactions are mixed, but on the whole, people are mostly happy with what we got? That's the impression I'm getting. I'm pretty happy with it, but I'm probably not as discriminating as some of you.
What I'm really eager to see is some battle reports with this.
cygnnus wrote: Uh... Did I miss something? I thought for sure the iBooks version was listed at $32.99 like the ebook version. But now it's $39.99!?!??!? That *really* sticks in my craw. GW, you're really treading on thin ice there...
Valete,
JohnS
iBooks version was always more expensive than the ebook version in UK currency. Sure you're not remembering it wrong?
Troike wrote: So seems like reactions are mixed, but on the whole, people are mostly happy with what we got? That's the impression I'm getting. I'm pretty happy with it, but I'm probably not as discriminating as some of you.
Right now, Sisters kick the crap out of a lot of meta lists.
Wraithknights and Riptides? Good luck with that. My ignores cover scouts and exorcists ahve something to say.
Screamerstar and Jetseers? Yeah, so I have a 10 point piece of wargear that kills your unit.
cygnnus wrote: Uh... Did I miss something? I thought for sure the iBooks version was listed at $32.99 like the ebook version. But now it's $39.99!?!??!? That *really* sticks in my craw. GW, you're really treading on thin ice there...
Valete,
JohnS
You missed soemthing. The eBook one is always cheaper.
Troike wrote: So seems like reactions are mixed, but on the whole, people are mostly happy with what we got? That's the impression I'm getting. I'm pretty happy with it, but I'm probably not as discriminating as some of you.
Right now, Sisters kick the crap out of a lot of meta lists.
Wraithknights and Riptides? Good luck with that. My ignores cover scouts and exorcists ahve something to say.
Screamerstar and Jetseers? Yeah, so I have a 10 point piece of wargear that kills your unit.
It's delicious.
Exorcists don't ignore cover?
Being a bit slow I bet but whats the 10pt Wargear?
Troike wrote: So seems like reactions are mixed, but on the whole, people are mostly happy with what we got? That's the impression I'm getting. I'm pretty happy with it, but I'm probably not as discriminating as some of you.
Right now, Sisters kick the crap out of a lot of meta lists.
Wraithknights and Riptides? Good luck with that. My ignores cover scouts and exorcists ahve something to say.
Screamerstar and Jetseers? Yeah, so I have a 10 point piece of wargear that kills your unit.
It's delicious.
Exorcists don't ignore cover?
Being a bit slow I bet but whats the 10pt Wargear?
Troike wrote: So seems like reactions are mixed, but on the whole, people are mostly happy with what we got? That's the impression I'm getting. I'm pretty happy with it, but I'm probably not as discriminating as some of you.
Right now, Sisters kick the crap out of a lot of meta lists.
Wraithknights and Riptides? Good luck with that. My ignores cover scouts and exorcists ahve something to say.
Screamerstar and Jetseers? Yeah, so I have a 10 point piece of wargear that kills your unit.
It's delicious.
Sooooo much this... ^
Uriah + a couple priests with eviscerators and Litanies in a guard blob is stupid. Just insane... going to move this over to the Tatica thread.
Things have certainly changed, but the sky is far from falling
Ok, so :
- Still no skyfire in the whole codex.
- The most non-sensical, unexpected, idiotic, uncalled for, useless nerf ever : storm bolter actually got more expensive now. Nobody noticed, because nobody cares, but still : STUPID !
Troike wrote: So seems like reactions are mixed, but on the whole, people are mostly happy with what we got? That's the impression I'm getting. I'm pretty happy with it, but I'm probably not as discriminating as some of you.
Right now, Sisters kick the crap out of a lot of meta lists.
Wraithknights and Riptides? Good luck with that. My ignores cover scouts and exorcists ahve something to say.
Screamerstar and Jetseers? Yeah, so I have a 10 point piece of wargear that kills your unit.
It's delicious.
It is very powerful ATM, I agree.
It's a lot better than I thought it would be and it has enough changes in it to be worth buying.
I can't see a long time SoB player being upset with this. Finally this army has a Codex that works.
Three things I am really glad about:
Smaller Sisters Squads - I don't have to fork out nearly £75 for one squad. Five guys (inc as many flamer weapons as I can pack in) and an Immolator with TLMM for just under £50. I'm ok with that. My Marine squads with custom Shoulder Pads were £35 a squad of ten, plus the Rhino for £55 in total.
Dominions having 4 Special Weapons in minimum squads - Just YES!!!
Good tweeking of rules and updates all round - except PE and the slight nerf to Retributor Squads.
As for the AoF on Ret Squads - isn't more reliable to get one off with them now? At most I only ever saw a Ret squad pulling an AoF once in the WD book.
I also agree that the layout is gak. Any way to change it?
So, can anyone tell me what does Shred do ? I have a French rulebook, and I have no idea about the name of the rule in French. And I don't even have the rulebook with me right now. Is it any good ? What's the difference with rending ?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So, can anyone tell me what does Shred do ? I have a French rulebook, and I have no idea about the name of the rule in French. And I don't even have the rulebook with me right now. Is it any good ? What's the difference with rending ?
Why not just saying reroll wounds like before then .
I don't get all the hype about Jacobus. I can see two way to use him. Might work on a Sororitas Command Squad with a lot of power weapons, because everyone with rerollable 3+ or 5++ can be quite cool… but it's still Celestians we are talking about, and the extra Act of Faith don't look that useful there. Or, he could join a heavy bolter retributor squad, for improved shield of faith, fearless, and extra Act of Faith. Neither strike me as all that good, for his high point cost.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'm confused about the Condemnor word-up. For it to work, the whole unit must have the psyker rule ? Does that mean that a unit joined by a psyker doesn't get any Perils ?
Why not just saying reroll wounds like before then .
I don't get all the hype about Jacobus. I can see two way to use him. Might work on a Sororitas Command Squad with a lot of power weapons, because everyone with rerollable 3+ or 5++ can be quite cool… but it's still Celestians we are talking about, and the extra Act of Faith don't look that useful there. Or, he could join a heavy bolter retributor squad, for improved shield of faith, fearless, and extra Act of Faith. Neither strike me as all that good, for his high point cost.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'm confused about the Condemnor word-up. For it to work, the whole unit must have the psyker rule ? Does that mean that a unit joined by a psyker doesn't get any Perils ?
Jacobus and a Ret squad with a Simulacrum is three turns of Rending HB.
That makes them really good, if a little expensive.
Jacobus, 12" Fearless and counter attack bubble, Hatred to his unit and boost shield of faith to a 5+ invul, rosarius and big f off shotgun. Plus war hymns and a bonus act once per game. Not exactly bad.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: So, can anyone tell me what does Shred do ? I have a French rulebook, and I have no idea about the name of the rule in French. And I don't even have the rulebook with me right now. Is it any good ? What's the difference with rending ?
Look for découpage/déchiquetage/dépeçage, or look in the lightning claw entry.
Puscifer wrote:Jacobus and a Ret squad with a Simulacrum is three turns of Rending HB.
That makes them really good, if a little expensive.
I had the same for way less point before .
S'jet wrote:Jacobus, 12" Fearless and counter attack bubble, Hatred to his unit and boost shield of faith to a 5+ invul, rosarius and big f off shotgun. Plus war hymns and a bonus act once per game. Not exactly bad.
Of all you listed, only Fearless, 5+ shield of Faith, and one extra Act are useful for shooting. And we all know what Sisters are worth in close combat. So, I guess I'll have a simple Priest lead my conclave, now .
I take it that when using War Hymns you use the Priests LD and not the highest in the unit if he is part of one?
The Emperors Strength also makes all the priests attacks Ap2, if you Smash you get 2 S6 Ap2 attacks (2A base, +1 for 2CCW so he always has 2 Smash attacks minimum with standard loudout). Yet here we have to pay 30pts for an Eviscerator to basically get the same thing?
Inferno Pistols are bad. Just take hand flamers
Get specials/heavies for the 5 sisters
You need more rides. Girls out in the open are dead girls. Especially the 5 girl squad. Or take a Bastion.
Drop the combis on the Doms for more points. SSV is > Combi. Heck Simulacrum > Combi
Drop the Rets and take another Exorcist.
I was afraid that was the correct reading. Boo. I never had much luck getting AoF off when I needed a 3 or 4. Needing an 8 or less is going to be rough.
pretre wrote: A big solid scoring 20 girl blob is now a great unit. Being fearless with a priest and being able to reroll saves in h2h makes for a really good unit.
Hmm. Thinking about this one.
Probably only worth taking one of those though considering the expense....... Would be a really annoying unit to shift from an ADL though
Looks like we are now an alpha strike army (with the added stress of getting into position for the strike). Priests look amazing but, without a reliable delivery system, I think their potential is somewhat limited to counter charge threats QQ
Seems to me that very little was improved, while many things were nerfed. Retributors are out, I mean AoF only once and you get Rending IF you roll 6s. No inferno bolts for Immolators, and they don't have better armor, so they will die fast. More expensive Rhinos? Celestine is more, but only gets up once.
pretre wrote: Inferno Pistols are bad. Just take hand flamers
Maybe, I used to love the inferno pistols, never tried the hand flamers.
pretre wrote: Get specials/heavies for the 5 sisters
You need more rides. Girls out in the open are dead girls. Especially the 5 girl squad.
The five-girl-squad is the “Leave behind a wall next to an objective and completely forget about” unit. They just have a SSV to make it less likely they flee. At my FLGS, in tournament, every mission involves two objective, which are taken from Kill points, Relic, the 1d3+3 objectives and the 1 objective for each player. So it's very frequent I get to place at least one objective, which I can leave in some place where it will be hard for my opponent to draw a line of sight.
pretre wrote: Drop the combis on the Doms for more points. SSV is >; Combi. Heck Simulacrum > Combi
Since Immolator means no shooting from inside the vehicle, I don't expect my dominion to survive one more turn. So Simulacrum is useless. And I took an SSV for the melta, but it seems very useless for the flamers, which don't need the AoF, so they have no use for the extra Ld.
pretre wrote: Drop the Rets and take another Exorcist.
No model for that . Else I would either do that, or try the 4 rending heavy flamer squad just for fun !
Wwbushidow wrote: Seems to me that very little was improved, while many things were nerfed. Retributors are out, I mean AoF only once and you get Rending IF you roll 6s. No inferno bolts for Immolators, and they don't have better armor, so they will die fast. More expensive Rhinos? Celestine is more, but only gets up once.
the 4 heavy flamer Ret squad is tempting isn't it. There's going to be so much melta on the field that the H.flamer squad may be much better than even an exorcist.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I can take a 20 Sister unit, put 5 priests in it and 2 HQs.
Priests: Ecclesiarchy Relic: Litanies of Faith: Autopass AoF and Hymn Zealot gives unit Fearless and Hatred The Emperor Protects (reroll armour and inv). The Righteousness of the Emperor (reroll To Wound) Any that are left do The Emperor's Strength (3 S3 Ap2 attacks (4 on charge or Smash for 2 S6 Ap2 attacks)
Uriah Jacobus: If Warlord Indomitable Belief: Shield of Faith 5+ The Emperor's Strength for 4 S3 Ap2 attacks (or 5 on charge or 2 S6 Ap2 attacks, 3 on charge) Banner gives Counter-attack
Saint Celestine: If Warlord Beacon of Faith: 12" AoF and Hymns on Ld10 Hit and Run
So I could have a unit that has: Fearless Hatred Counter Attack Hit and Run Reroll armour and Inv saves Reroll to wound 3+ 5++(If Uriah Warlord) on all Battle Sisters Auto passes all AoF or Hymn tests with a Priest that has Litanies of Faith.
pretre wrote: Read it again. Almost everything got better.
Celestine got worse, Jacobus got worse, Conclave got worse (except for arcoflagellants, that got way better), rhinos got worse (well, the same but more expensive), heavy bolter retributor got worse, flamers dominions got worse, seraphim got worse (less options, you need to pay extra if you want to get a veteran, no more reroll the act of faith), …
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah, multiple priest is an awesome idea for a conclave. Rerolling those 3++ and rerolling both to hit and to wound with those sweet DCA !
(Except we can't do anything in CC against any unit/MC with a 2+ save now )
I didn't noticed first time, but if you don't take the paying upgrade, Seraphim don't get a leader. Which means Celestine has to either accept the challenge from that nasty character with a 2+ save which she can't harm in any way, and get crushed, or just not do anything at all.
Sad !
pretre wrote: Read it again. Almost everything got better.
Celestine got worse
She's still verrrrrry good, just need to be more careful
Jacobus got worse
not sure about this as I didn't use him under the last codex update
Conclave got worse (except for arcoflagellants, that got way better)
Not really..... They still lack an effective delivery system, but we had that under the old rules :S They still make a fine backfield unit to camp on an objective
rhinos got worse (well, the same but more expensive)
Agreed..... can't see any reason for this excepting that we can now use immo's for our smaller BSS squads
heavy bolter retributor got worse
Yeah.... but they filled a niche role anyway.... and HF celestians kinda make up for this
flamers dominions got worse
Just take melta doms instead? throw in a flamer if you like but the ability to ignore cover on melta shots is a massive perk
seraphim got worse (less options, you need to pay extra if you want to get a veteran, no more reroll the act of faith), …
These girls now fill an entirely different role in the army..... having 'shred' with their flamers means they take over crowd control duties from the dominions (freeing them up to take out armoured targets)
There's gonna be a real sea change in how the army plays: Looks like we can put out one of the best alpha strikes in the game but, it's going to require alot of tactical thinking to pull it off. Veteran SoB players are going to be used to that though. As much as i'm pleased to get some new rules and a bit more variety I think this codex is going to put off new players
MadCowCrazy wrote: I take it that when using War Hymns you use the Priests LD and not the highest in the unit if he is part of one?
The Emperors Strength also makes all the priests attacks Ap2, if you Smash you get 2 S6 Ap2 attacks (2A base, +1 for 2CCW so he always has 2 Smash attacks minimum with standard loudout). Yet here we have to pay 30pts for an Eviscerator to basically get the same thing?
Is it just me or are Hymns better than AoF?
I don't think so. You would just follow the normal rules for Leadership Test:
pg 7
At certain times, a model or unit might be called upon to take a Leadership test. This usually represents them drawing upon their courage to face disheartening circumstances.
To take a Leadership test, use the following procedure:
Roll 2D6 and compare the result to the models leadership.
If the result is equal to or less than the model's Leadership value, then the test has been passed.
If the result is greater than the models Leadership value, a suitably dire consequence will occur, as detailed in the rule that called for the test.
If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them.
not sure about this as I didn't use him under the last codex update
Lost giving Feel no Pain, and +1 attack. Gained stuff that don't work with the Conclave.
J.Black wrote:Not really.....
THEY CAN'T DEAL WITH 2+ SAVE ANYMORE ! How is that not a huge nerf ?
J.Black wrote:Just take melta doms instead?
So, it was nerfed, as I said.
J.Black wrote:These girls now fill an entirely different role in the army..... having 'shred' with their flamers means they take over crowd control duties from the dominions
Do you mean, like, having Shred instead of Reroll to wound ? I'm sorry, I fail to see how that can be in any way new…
I do perfectly see how they went from rerollable 3+ with Celestine, 2+ if they took a casualty, to pass the act of faith available EVERY TURN is worse than passing a command test to get the act working on one unique turn.
I've read through it, and am still digesting it. My initial verdict?
The Good: Priests, Command Squads, Multimelta Immolators, and Battle Sister Squads seem to be the big winners here. Celestine seems to be an appropriate price for what you get, and still strikes me as a solid choice. Seraphim and Exorcists are pretty similar to their previous incarnation, and Dominions are still good, particularly against MCs that can get good cover saves. Faith requires a leadership test, which makes it a bit more reliable than before. Jacobius and some of the Relics have potential. The Warlord Trait Table seems balanced and appropriate, though on my first readthrough I misread 'Beacon of Faith' as 'Bacon of Faith', and I'd much prefer the latter to the former. Heavy Flamer Retributors might be the new Heavy Bolter Retributors.
The Bad: Canonesses, Celestians, Battle Conclaves, Flamer Immolators, and Penitent Engines all seem to come up a bit short. Most of them are really missed opportunities, moreso that decidedly bad units. Faith is probably, in the long run, a bit worse. Every unit can only use Faith once (or twice) a battle, but, realistically, in the previous codex few units would ever use their faith more than twice a game anyway. Eviscerators should be cheaper- it's only a chainfist on an S3 model, there's no need for it to be 30 points!
The Ugly: Repentia lost FnP and are going to get shot to ribbons before they ever get a chance to swing. Penitent Engines get less attacks. Heavy Bolter Retributors got nerfed, and Heavy Bolter Immolators are terribly outclassed by, well, everything. We didn't get any new units and actually lost two more (Confessor, Kyrinov). No sign of the Repressor, Avenger, Zealots, etc. Every unit still only has one faith power- I really would have liked to see a few 'generic' powers, like we had in the Witch Hunter days.
So, a few things got better, everything else got either worse, or more expensive, or both. I think we're going to see another decade of the Sisters of Battle having one good/competative build, and a lot of fun and fluffy units that only come out of the multicase for fun games. Oh well, better luck next time eh?
And, unit by unit: HQ- Sororitas Saint Celestian still seems pretty good, but is more fairly priced for what she delivers. The vanilla Canoness still seems underwhelming. I feel like they just shuffled around points costs and rules without any meaningful changes. What she gains from the cheaper Rosarius, she loses to more expensive weapon options. Her Act of Faith grants Hatred instead of Preferred Enemy and +1 Initiative, etc. But the changes all seem superficial- she's still a good 20 points overpriced. Martyrdom seems cool, but I suspect by the time the Canoness dies (turn three or so), I'll have already burned through a good chunk of my faith and won't be able to make the most of it. The Command Squad's enormous drop in points is noteworthy. I'm not sold on their ability to make for a good close combat unit, but I think there's a lot of potential in there with the right builds.
Battle Conclaves are pretty much the same; Arco-Flagellants got a lot cheaper and Assassins and Crusaders are restricted to Swords. However, they still suffer from their inability to last long enough to get into combat. In 5th, when they could charge out of a Rhino, they were much better. I think they might have taken another small hit, in that they can no longer benefit from adding the old 'FnP, +1A' Jacobus. The new Jacobus is sort of a mash-up of his former self, and some of Kyrinov's stuff (the Icon of Chiros' bubble of courage). So, he loses the FnP and +1A buff I used to love putting in my Battle Conclave, and instead gets a Warlord Trait that doesn't help the Conclave in the least, and a special rule that enhances Acts of Faith. So, the new Jacobus seems to be a good fit for a unit that makes the most of its Faith- I'm just not sure what unit that is yet, or whether it's worth his pricetag. But I suspect that Jacobus will prove his worth in the weeks to come. The Confessor and Kyrinov are gone, though generic Priests got way cheaper and way better. It's also worth noting that you can now take 9 Sisters and a Priest, and squeeze them all in a Rhino (Repressor), and still get the two special weapons. I think the Priest might be an auto-include.
Elites Celestians are pricey Battle Sisters who can't score. The fact that BSS can come in squads of five, coupled with the fact that the Celestians really haven't gotten anything but a price cut, means that they're still pretty useless. Repentia lost Feel No Pain. Despite their price drop, and their ability to take a dedicated transport, I think they got worse- they're going to get shot off the table before they get into assault.
Troops Battle Sister Squads are a little more expensive than before- despite the lower sticker price, you'll end up spending more points if you grab the Veteran Superior or the Simulacrum Imperialis; you'll need both of them to approximate the in game value of the old WD codex's squad. Heavy Flamers got much better, Heavy Bolters and Stormbolters got inexplicable price bumps. They can only use their Act of Faith once per game, now, which is worse than before. Superior options are pretty similar to before, though the Contemptor Boltgun seems to have gotten better. Squads of 5 Sisters are now possible, complete with two special weapons, though they don't have much in the way of staying power. Squads of 9 are much more important, in my opinion, since you can now grab 9 Sisters, 2 meltas or flamers, a priest, and cram them all in a Rhino, and make your Space Wolf friends green with envy. Squads of 20 sisters, reinforced by a Priest, could be another way to go. I think that a lot of good Sisters lists are going to work by synergizing Battle Sister Squads with Priests. Zealots/Frateris Militia, which I'd really hoped to see, didn't make the book.
Dedicated Transports The Rhino got a 5 point bump; I guess that's to cover Shield of Faith, and the Searchlight that now comes standard. The Repressor saw more meaningful changes. It got marginally cheaper, though the real winner is the fact that the Multimelta upgrade is now free. Heavy Bolter Immolators lost Inferno Bolts, though, with the price reduction on the Multi-Melta, I really can't see myself ever running it with the flamers or the bolters again. The Repressor was not included in the book.
Fast Attack Seraphim are pretty much unchanged, except for the change to Acts of Faith. Hand Flamers got a little cheaper, Angelic Visage got a little worse. Dominions are superficially similar to their previous incarnation, though they now enjoy the benefit of 4 special weapons, regardless of squad size. However, their Act of Faith no longer grants Twin-Linked: it now grants Ignore Cover. Whether or not this is a good thing is dependent upon your meta and playstyle; I personally would have preferred Twin Linked.
Heavy Support The Exorcist is virtually unchanged, except for a small points reduction. Retributors got worse: between the fact that Heavy Bolters doubled in price, and the changes to Faith, Retributors have lost most of their luster. Heavy Flamer Retributors might be destined to make a comeback, though- time and experimentation will tell. Penitent Engines got a little worse as well; they have 3 attacks rather than d6, and no longer gain bonus attacks for delivering unsaved wounds. They're probably balanced with the new Retributors, but both can't compete with the Exorcist. The Avenger Strike Fighter is not included in the book.
J.Black wrote: Yes, by your exacting standards stuff got nerfed. I agree.
Try to think of other styles of playing and you'll be pleasantly surprised
I was answering to :
Almost everything got better.
Don't you see that not almost everything got better ? A few things got better, many things got worse. Maybe we can find new ways to overuse the things that got better. Still not true that “almost everything” got better.
MadCowCrazy wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but I can take a 20 Sister unit, put 5 priests in it and 2 HQs.
Priests:
Ecclesiarchy Relic: Litanies of Faith: Autopass AoF and Hymn
Zealot gives unit Fearless and Hatred
The Emperor Protects (reroll armour and inv).
The Righteousness of the Emperor (reroll To Wound)
Any that are left do The Emperor's Strength (3 S3 Ap2 attacks (4 on charge or Smash for 2 S6 Ap2 attacks)
Uriah Jacobus:
If Warlord Indomitable Belief: Shield of Faith 5+
The Emperor's Strength for 4 S3 Ap2 attacks (or 5 on charge or 2 S6 Ap2 attacks, 3 on charge)
Banner gives Counter-attack
Saint Celestine:
If Warlord Beacon of Faith: 12" AoF and Hymns on Ld10
Hit and Run
So I could have a unit that has:
Fearless
Hatred
Counter Attack
Hit and Run
Reroll armour and Inv saves
Reroll to wound
3+ 5++(If Uriah Warlord) on all Battle Sisters
Auto passes all AoF or Hymn tests with a Priest that has Litanies of Faith.
a unit cannot attempt to use more than one Act of Faith in the same phase
Not really.... when you quote someone else 5 times you give the impression that you are responding to them
Regardless: 5 Strong BSS squads are massive. It effectively halves the 'tax' we had to pay for putting an army on the table whilst retaining all the utility of having a special + heavy weapon in the squad. That alone gives us a big enough boost to counter the nerfs handed out to other units!
MadCowCrazy wrote: So I could have a unit that has:
Fearless (From Jacobus banner)
Hatred (From the priest Zealot rule)
Counter Attack(From Jacobus banner)
Hit and Run(From Celestine special rule)
Reroll armour and Inv saves(From the priest War hymns)
Reroll to wound(From Jacobus War hymns)
3+ 5++(If Uriah Warlord) on all Battle Sisters(From Uriah Warlord trait)
Auto passes all AoF or Hymn tests with a Priest that has Litanies of Faith.
a unit cannot attempt to use more than one Act of Faith in the same phase
J.Black wrote: Not really.... when you quote someone else 5 times you give the impression that you are responding to them
Do you still think “almost everything got better”, or is it just “the few things that got better make up for all that went worse” now ?
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pretre wrote: War Hymns do stack, which is pretty nasty. 3 Priests in a squad means you get all three.
Except only two war hymns applies to the unit, the last one only applies to the priest. If that one would also apply to the unit, it would be beastly ! “Hey, look, all my DCA decide to smash, they only get 3 CC5 S8 AP2 attacks at I6 each. U mad ?”
Furyou Miko wrote: I guess Priests weren't selling well enough or something, since now we pretty much have to fill our army with dirty old men for our Sisters to be even near as effective as they used to be!
Priestesses. I don't recall any fluff saying the Ecclesiarchy is men-only...
Just downloaded the book (it popped at 11pm Eastern) and saw
“Male Progena may become Commissars or soldiers in the Imperial Guard, petty officers in the Imperial Navy or enter the priesthood of the Adeptus Ministorum. Female Progena may well be entered into the Adepta Sororitas. Progena of both sexes may be recruited into the Inquisition or even the Officio Assassinorum."
That strongly implies there are no female priests -- or Commissars for that matter. (Sorry, Raege).
Of course, it also implies no female Progena join the Imperial Guard or Navy, but those two organizations don't recruit exclusively or even primarily from the Scholae as the Commissariat and the Sisterhood do, so that doesn't contradict the female Guard and Navy officers that show up in various sources.
Now, it's entirely possible that the Ministorum recruits clergy who aren't Progena -- in fact given its size it would probably have to -- but it's hard to imagine them thinking a non-Progena female was worthy to join when Progena ones aren't.
But never fear! I can still justify female models in those priest slots. Death Cult Assassins are (all? Almost all?) female, and who better to lead the Sororitas screaming into battle than a veteran Death Cultist who is considered a priestess by her cult and (grudgingly) recognized as equivalent-to-ordained by the Ministorum?
Alternatively, you can just say these are Sisters from some militant or even non-militant order with leadership skills (and perhaps de facto ordination) that lets them count-as Priests. But ordained DCA are funnier.
The extra priests are there only for their Eviscerator wannabe attacks. 3 priests with 2 S6 Ap2 attacks each is pretty nasty.
CSM pay 25 points for the Icon of Vengeance that gives Fearless... AS pay 25 points for a model that gives Fearless, Hatred and can give his unit rerollable armour and inv saves, or reroll To Wounds.
If neither of those are needed he can make his own close combat attacks S3 AP2 (models with Smash always count their CC as AP2) or smash for S6 AP2.
And on top of this an Eviscerator costs 30pts... You dont even need to buy one for a priest as he can give himself the same thing (without Armourbane).
WHY ARE EVISCERATORS 30 POINTS!!!
Hurpa Durpa! But Power Fists cost 25pts in the SM codex, the armourbane has to be worth an extra 5pts right?
SM are S4 so they get S8 AP2 attacks, Sisters get S6 Ap2 with Armourbane... we all know you'd pop vehicles with Melta and not Eviscerators!
Just noticed that the War of Faith section mention the horrible, horrible, very horrible Blood Tide fluff from a Sister of Battle point of view. Which is “Some Khorne greater daemon arrived here, Sisters battled his force, some Grey Knights arrived, and then the Sisters were all dead, but we just made them Martyr and never suspected anything wrong here.
J.Black wrote: Not really.... when you quote someone else 5 times you give the impression that you are responding to them
Do you still think “almost everything got better”, or is it just “the few things that got better make up for all that went worse” now ?
No, but I do.
Almost everything got better and the things that didn't get better got different, but still about the same. Celestine even got better in some ways. Can you do the exact same things with every unit that you could before? No. Can you do equally cool things with almost every unit?
Celestine? Lost infinite regen. Gained Hit and Run and army synergy. adamantium will and martyrdom. Fun fact? You can deny your opponent Slay the Warlord by not using Miraculous Intervention. THe wording of her rule says she only counts if she fails her act or dies the second time. Oh and she got master crafted, lost poison but got +2 strength. I would say this is a wash.
Jacobus? Lost FNP, +1 Attack. Gained 5++ for his unit, fearles and counter attack bubble, auto faith power, his rerolls work when he gets charged now, he is fearless instead of stubborn on his unit, he gets martyrdom and adamantium will. This is all gain.
Seraphim inferno pistols? I'm sorry but if you use them you really don't have much to complain about. THey have always been bad and complaining that they are still bad is just silly. Yes, Seraphim pay for their VSS and don't get a Simulacrum. Cheaper hand flamers help out a lot though. about even here.
Conclave? I'm sorry, because I used the Power WEapon thing, but no one should really have expected that we got to keep the 'pick your own weapon' rule. Now they get reroll wounds and/or reroll saves from their priest. Either way, they are still bad because of no delivery system. About even.
Flamer Doms? Yes, these are no longer valid. Melta doms are so much better now though. This is a gain for Doms. 4 specials in 5? Holy crap is it a gain.
Really, what got worse?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Canoness is much cooler now, too bad she got such a dud act of faith.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Playing with lists and it is crazy:
Celestine
Jacobus
20 Sisters with Simulacrum, VSS, MM,Flamer
2 x 5 BSS with HF/Melta in TL-MM Immo
2 Dominions (6) with 4 Meltas, Simulacrum, VSS in TL-MM Immo
3 Exorcists
Aegis with Quad
4 Priests with 1 Litany, 4 Plasma Guns
1836
20 Sisters with Fearless, 5++ Save, Hit and Run, Counter-Attack, all of the goodies from 2 priests, Jacobus and Celestine. Put the two other priests with the BSS. Yikes. Sit them behind the aegis and laugh.
Celestine? Lost infinite regen. Gained Hit and Run and army synergy. adamantium will and martyrdom. Fun fact? You can deny your opponent Slay the Warlord by not using Miraculous Intervention. THe wording of her rule says she only counts if she fails her act or dies the second time. Oh and she got master crafted, lost poison but got +2 strength. I would say this is a wash.
Really, what got worse?
I'm not sure how I feel about St Celestine as she is still terribly easy to kill, but lets call it a wash for now. There are a lot of weapons in the game that will just kill her ~13% of the time still. I would have happily paid up to 175 for a better version.
As for what really got worse, I feel Acts of Faith are a little improved in some areas, but once a game each makes them terrible IMO. Since most of the units lack special rules to set them apart, Acts should be the defining characteristic and they supply too little in most cases to do that.
andrewm9 wrote: I'm not sure how I feel about St Celestine as she is still terribly easy to kill, but lets call it a wash for now. There are a lot of weapons in the game that will just kill her ~13% of the time still. I would have happily paid up to 175 for a better version.
As for what really got worse, I feel Acts of Faith are a little improved in some areas, but once a game each makes them terrible IMO. Since most of the units lack special rules to set them apart, Acts should be the defining characteristic and they supply too little in most cases to do that.
Celestine is more of a buffer now. Which is pretty awesome and more characterful than the Emperor's Daemon Prince.
As for acts of faith, I like that it is more reliable now. And everyone can use them in one turn without having to have Jacobus in your army.
Moving onto the Apoc section its almost like these were developed seperately from the rest of the codex. The one that really stands out. to me is the Repentant Host. One of its special rules give you the ability to reroll failed Feel No Pain rolls is somewhat laughable given that Repentia can only use it once per game, but have the potential to fail to get it at all. Still they get Rampage which suppose is likely ro come into effect given that Repentia will fly off the table in Apocalypse.
The Purge Squadron might be awesome until you realize it takes 6 units firing as one to use its special attack. Still given that every unit has relentless makes it somewhat interesting, but somewhat limited by every unit having a mix of heavy weapons.
MadCowCrazy wrote: The extra priests are there only for their Eviscerator wannabe attacks. 3 priests with 2 S6 Ap2 attacks each is pretty nasty.
CSM pay 25 points for the Icon of Vengeance that gives Fearless...
AS pay 25 points for a model that gives Fearless, Hatred and can give his unit rerollable armour and inv saves, or reroll To Wounds.
If neither of those are needed he can make his own close combat attacks S3 AP2 (models with Smash always count their CC as AP2) or smash for S6 AP2.
And on top of this an Eviscerator costs 30pts... You dont even need to buy one for a priest as he can give himself the same thing (without Armourbane).
WHY ARE EVISCERATORS 30 POINTS!!!
Hurpa Durpa! But Power Fists cost 25pts in the SM codex, the armourbane has to be worth an extra 5pts right?
SM are S4 so they get S8 AP2 attacks, Sisters get S6 Ap2 with Armourbane... we all know you'd pop vehicles with Melta and not Eviscerators!
Combine smash and eviscerators and now you are str 10. Also you can use the other war hymns and use the evis to give you a strong punch.
pretre wrote: I think the Apocs are cut and paste from old ones, but I didn't have the old ones.
I think the Celestine formation is new, or at least I'd never seen it. They left out the Exorcist formation though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
streamdragon wrote: Bahahahahaha I can't believe I wasted $33 bucks on this. I knew better. I knew better, but that didn't stop me from crapping money down the drain.
Codex: Priests (and their bitches). That's my name for this book.
I'm so glad to see people are taking this update so well and actually playing it before condemning it. Oh wait.
Having done a cover to cover read through, I have to say I like this book. Nothing screams "terrible" at me, and the only thing I really feel is lacking is some form of skyfire. However, with the silly amount of melta and cheaper exorcists, it isnt going to be too tough to snap fire most things down. Plus, should the codex sell well, I imagine a flyer being added later on, which will be easy to do in a digital only book.
One thing I like about this book is it is very much reliant on synergy with the AoF and buffs the leaders give. There are all sorts of scary combinations bouncing through everyones heads at this point, and I'm sure we are going to fair pretty well on the table top.
Well here is my 2,000 point List w Grey Knight Inquisitor allies I threw together using the new dex. Compared to what I was running with the white dwarf codex this just seems way better. OMG all the Immolators now.
Spoiler:
St. Celestine - 135
5 Seraphim - 75
2x two hand flamers - 20
Total - 95
5 Sisters - 60
melta - 10
heavy flamer - 10
combi-melta - 10
Immolator w MM - 60
Priest - 25
Total - 175
5 Sisters - 60
melta - 10
heavy flamer - 10
combi-melta - 10
Immolator w MM - 60
Priest w boltgun - 26
Total - 176
5 Sisters - 60
melta - 10
heavy flamer - 10
combi-melta - 10
Immolator w MM - 60
Priest w boltgun - 26
Total - 176
5 Sisters - 60
melta - 10
heavy flamer - 10
combi-melta - 10
Immolator w MM - 60
Priest w boltgun - 26
Total - 176
5 Dominions - 65
4 Meltaguns - 40
Immolator w MM - 60
Total - 185
Exorcist - 125
Exorcist - 125
Avenger Strike Fighter - 150
Aegis w Quad Gun - 100
** Grey Knight Allies **
Inquisitor Coteaz - 100
Henchmen warband
3 Heavy Bolter Servators - 30
Jokaru Weaponsmith - 35
Chimera - 55
Total - 120
Leadership test to activate and it only works during the assault phase. How long does it last? is it roll on each assault phase to activate or is 1 roll good for both your assault phase and the enemy assault phase?
Leadership test to activate and it only works during the assault phase. How long does it last? is it roll on each assault phase to activate or is 1 roll good for both your assault phase and the enemy assault phase?
You can take the leadership test at the beginning of each fight sub-phase in which he is locked in combat.
Condemner Boltgun - Yup, this is still in, and now it forces a model with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psykers or Psychic Pilot rule to suffer a Perils of the Warp upon being hit, in addition to any other damage. Not a bad improvement.
reading the grey knight book, only the unit sergeant takes the peril of the warp wound (if he is dead then its random between the remaining psykers) plus the initial damage
as for thousand sons, only the sergeant is a psyker (or any independent character psyker for example), i have no idea if i can, using his unit, hide him from the condemner bolt or if the guy in front gets hit, while the psyker suffers a perils of the warp wound
Regardless of the rules, the layout of this file is upsetting my calm. This is the most unprofessional, badly designed piece of crap I've ever had the misfortune to spend money on. Without exaggerating it could have been put together a child in high school.
schadenfreude wrote: Wonder what happens when a unit with multiple psychers is hit with a comdemner boltgun.
Well the unit takes a peril.. but usually models only do. Either you interpret that as all the models in the unit take one (where applicable) or none.
Pre so FAQRAW every psycher in the unit takes one unless they have the brotherhood of psychers ability. Farseers can laugh it off with 3 fresh warp tokens for their ghost helm at the start of the sisters turn, while screamer star just curls up into a ball and implodes if it gets shot with 2 of them.
riburn3 wrote: the silly amount of melta and cheaper exorcists
Exorcists are still 135, just like they used to be.
Melta immos went down to 60 from 80, though. Which is incredible for us. I can't see any reason to ever not throw in as many immos as yiu can now. I'm buying more models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looky Likey wrote: As characters can do precision shots could they force the physic test against a particular model of our choice on a 6?
I'd say no, since the rules state that the unit has to take the chack, so it should be by bop rules, which is the sarge, or whichever the controlling player chooses if the sarge is dead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and the new missions? I am all over that. I made this shrine some months ago. It's like gw gave me a personal present with the Defend The Shrine mission
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