nope exorsists are down to 125 and have a free searchlight

but agree about Immolators!

Love the Shrine

 Mr Morden wrote:
nope exorsists are down to 125 and have a free searchlight

but agree about Immolators!

Love the Shrine

Right you are, I was sure I read 135. Was even one of the first things I checked since my friends always cry about my exos.

And thanks!

Like I said, cheaper exorcists, and dirt cheap immolators. It's going to be fun seeing some of the lists that pop up.

Wonder if this is intentional: give the Mace of Valaan to a Priest, take Eldars as Allies with the Avatar as HQ and keep the two of them within 6" of each other. And the mace always have Fleshbane.

Done sent Codex Grey Knight have Daemon Hosts still? Ally a couple of those in, if you're disregard for the fluff is so strong that you're willing to bring an Avatar along...

My intial thoughts I posted for my club - hoping to get a game on Wednesday to test.

Overview
Its £20 and has lots of pretty pictures and some bits and pieces of new fluff.
Most importantly loads of huge changes to their rules - some good, some less good and some - well pretty awesome

Shield of Faith stays - but now we get Adamant Will as well - so +1 to all units with this to Deny the Witch Rolls.
Acts of Faith - totally different - its not a straight LD test and you normally only get one per game per unit, but you can get extra through Standards. Some have chnaged - perhapos the most important being Dominons - instead of Twin Linked their AOF allows they to Ignore Cover (of yes with their melta guns)

Units:
HQ
St Celestine - gone up 20pts and can now only come back once, but gains Hit and Run, her Sword is now S5 and master crafted, but still Ap3.
Canoness - Still over priced but with a variety of relics that can give her Eternal Warrior and various buffs to her self and other units
Priests - only 25pts gets you a model that can buff your units 1 of 3 ways in Close Combat (LD test like AOF but every fight phase) - so unit gains either re-roll ALL failed armour/Invuln saves, gain Smite or re-roll all failed to wound
Command Squad - much more flexible and every single Celestian can have special or heavy weapons - regardless of size of the unit - you start with 5 Celestians

Elite
Celestians - still difficult to use so seldom will be seen - an assault squad which is not great in Assault
Repentia - loose Feel No pain, but have powerfists, Fleet, Rage and Fearless and can now have transports

FA
Dominons - By the Emperor these are good - they keep Scout and change their AOF to allow them to ignore cover rather than TL BUT can now take up to 4 special weapons (Flamers or Meltaguns) per unit - even if there are only 5 of them. Plus Immolators went down in price............
Serpahim - Their AOF is the same pretty much and they have to buy the Superior - but otherwise the same except hand flamers are now cheaper at 10pts

Troops
Battle Sisters - still only one choice but now you can have units of 5 - 2 of whom can have special or 1 special and 1 heavy - sweet............

Vehicles
Rhino gets a free searchlight and goes up by 5pts - so its not free...........
Immolators go down and the TL Multi-Melta is now a straight swap - ie free - awesome, oh and free searchlight
Exorcists go down in price, get a free searchlight and stay the same rules wise - awesome.
Penitent Engines - remain walkers and a bit difficult to use perhaps

Looking forward to trying them out

So I posted this on the GW Digital Editions FB page and it got removed, not by me, within 5 minutes:

Quick question: Is there an error concerning Arch-Confessor Kyrinov's pseudo absence from the .epub/.mobi versions of Codex: Adepta Sororitas? Just after Uriah Jacobus' page there is a heading titled, "The Arch-Confessor" following with three paragraphs of "fluff" about Kyrinov, but no actual entry for him and the next page goes onto "Saint Celestine".

Well, the Mace of Valaan is now wargear for priests, so he got squatted I guess..

 Still Standing wrote:
Done sent Codex Grey Knight have Daemon Hosts still? Ally a couple of those in, if you're disregard for the fluff is so strong that you're willing to bring an Avatar along...

Fluff is not my strong side, but wasn't a Sister mentioned in the SoB thread in Tactics who fought with Eldar?

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, can anyone tell me what does Shred do ? I have a French rulebook, and I have no idea about the name of the rule in French. And I don't even have the rulebook with me right now. Is it any good ? What's the difference with rending ?

Look for découpage/déchiquetage/dépeçage, or look in the lightning claw entry.

In the french book its "Lacération".

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I've half-killed the battery in my iPad and have gotten down my initial thoughts over on TWG: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/10/codex-adepta-sororitas-review.html .

Onething about your assessment is that (I am being nitpicky here) Repentia don'tactually have fell no pain unless they use their Act of Faith. Repentia are still a miserable unit to run for assaults.

For my own opinion, I am a little disappointed in the codex, but that primarily because I got my hopes up that it would be great. Almost none of the things i hoped for happened. My guess is that have a lot of preiest models tjey want to sell.

Why are arcos so much better in this codex?

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
Why are arcos so much better in this codex?

They got cheaper. Take a look.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Condemer bolt guns. 24" S4 hits cause perils on the unit.

Bye bye jetSeers & ScreamerCouncils

i see alot of folks lauding the Condemner boltguns... I dont think people are reading the whole entry.

They are single use combi-bolter options, so its hardly an I win button folks are making it out as.

 edweird wrote:
They are single use combi-bolter options, so its hardly an I win button folks are making it out as.

Most other things the regular Superiors can use are combi-weapons, though. So it's not out of place. And I don't think anyone's saying it's an "I win button", just that it's good at dealing with psykers, which it is.

Also goes nicely with Adamantium Will.

My first thought of the condemner boltgun was shooting a grey knights land raider, since it has psychic pilot, and since it causes a perils on a hit, not a wound, would that be an easier way to strip off a hull point?

 Purifier wrote:

Oh, and the new missions? I am all over that. I made this shrine some months ago. It's like gw gave me a personal present with the Defend The Shrine mission

Spoiler:

Shrine is shrinetastic.

Also, why does everyone hate inferno pistols so much? Is it just that they're not worth 15 points apiece?

 SisterSydney wrote:
Also, why does everyone hate inferno pistols so much? Is it just that they're not worth 15 points apiece?

For me, its that, and the fact that they have a 3" Melta range. I don't consider them a 'never take' option, though, especially since Precision Shot plus Str 8 AP 2 is a great recipe for killing enemy warlords. But you're probably only going to use it once, so a Combimelta gives more range, and is cheaper.

I noticed that the Immolator no longer stipulates ot's restricted to units of 6 or less, so it would be possible to buy empty immolators alongside foot squads to use as fire support. 60 points for an IFV with AV 11, a 6++ and a TL Multimelta seems about right.

 Still Standing wrote:
Done sent Codex Grey Knight have Daemon Hosts still? Ally a couple of those in, if you're disregard for the fluff is so strong that you're willing to bring an Avatar along...

Daemon Hosts don't have the daemon special rule. Also, having to constantly take that desperate allies check because you are within 6" makes the Avatar ally concept kind of silly imho.

Condemnor Boltguns are pretty much the same from the white dwarf... except for the rules lawyering over if it affects an entire squad or just the model that suffers the would. I had the new edition on ebook and the entry reads as such:

"Psi-shock: Any unit with the Pskyer, Brotherhood of Psykers or Psychic Pilot special rules that is hit by a weapon with this special rule suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other damage"

the previous version(white dwarf) read as such: "Any psyker that takes an unsaved would from the stake-crossbow suffers the Perisl of the Warp in additon to any other affects"

I could easily see this being errata'd but we shall see.

As for the rest of the book I am fairly disappointed with it from a purely sisters gameplay aspect. It seems like they want us to hinge our gameplay on preists which obviously is upsetting to most of us long time SoB players. Keep this in mind, our faith system went from a 3rd ed book where any unit could, if lucky, choose from a list of potential abilities that ranged from 3++ for a turn, to AP2 shooting among many others. This system got traded in for a system that pigeon holed acts on specific unit types, which makes no sense since fluff wise sisters progress though the units as they go. The main complaints were that D6 faith per turn did not scale with armies as they grew and greatly limited large games power curve.

Personally I think cruddance botched this one again... and is now level of respect as the guy who thought up Jar Jar Binks.

i am giving this another read now that I have calmed down, about the ways they have completely screwed up my playstyle (Hvy bolter Rets were my bread and butter) and have to think about how I am going to adjust.

Since the most recent rule reads "unit", it applies to the whole unit.

Whether or not that's a typo and will be fixed, that's what I'd go with anyway.

Just got a game in using MSU and Immolator Spam against Drakespam.

The army is powerful, a little fragile and needs a little finesse to play.

If anyone has complaints about no Skyfire, I used three Exorcists. 3D6 shots a turn at Strength 8 AP1 is more than enough to destroy any flyer or FMC.

The MSU Sister units with twin flamers in an Immolator with TL MM was outstanding. I took four squads and tag teamed them into a pair with a Dominion Melta Squad in a TL MM Immolator.

Think of the army as a mid range alpha strike army and you won't go wrong.

Melissa I agree entirely...

however having used them for laughs with the white dwarf and finding it nearly impossible to finesse the stake wound on the psyker with wound allocation. Hopefully it stays this way and we can have a witch hunting army again.

Also I like how its also not requiring an unsaved wound, but a hit only. Quite interesting, although I wish it was not a combi-weapon but we cant have it all.

 Shandara wrote:
Well, the Mace of Valaan is now wargear for priests, so he got squatted I guess..

At least you can still get use out of the model.

Strangely the mace doesn't replace wargear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

andrewm9 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I've half-killed the battery in my iPad and have gotten down my initial thoughts over on TWG: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/10/codex-adepta-sororitas-review.html .

Onething about your assessment is that (I am being nitpicky here) Repentia don'tactually have fell no pain unless they use their Act of Faith. Repentia are still a miserable unit to run for assaults.

You're right, that was my mistake. I've fixed it so people in the future don't have to deal with it too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

andrewm9 wrote:

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
Why are arcos so much better in this codex?

They got cheaper. Take a look.

That and you can take a lot of them too.

So, a big drawback of the previous codex was its lack of flexibility. Generally, we were confined to a few specific builds in order to be competetive. I'm curious about the consensus of the flexibility of this new codex. To me, it seems like we've got some more flexibility, now?

Something I just noticed is that as written Martyrdom doesn't work on units with Priests in them as they do not have the Act of Faith rule but the War Hymns rule. Units affected by Martyrdom must be "wholly comprised of models with the Act of Faith special rule".

Slight concern - am I correct in thinking - RAW that we can;t ally or be allied with as the Ally Matrix does not talk about Adepta Sororitas and there is nothing official to say that you read one as the other.

It won't likely matter for pick up games but for those who get all up tight about RAW?

 Troike wrote:
To me, it seems like we've got some more flexibility, now?

Yes, there seem to be 2-4 good builds you can make not counting allies so far.

re: Allies, I think that it is clear who we can ally with, but people may get silly.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Slight concern - am I correct in thinking - RAW that we can;t ally or be allied with as the Ally Matrix does not talk about Adepta Sororitas and there is nothing official to say that you read one as the other.

It won't likely matter for pick up games but for those who get all up tight about RAW?

If someone claims you cannot ally because GW arbitrarily changed the name of the army I would strongly reconsider playing against that person. No TO is going to rule that Sisters cannot ally with anyone

quiestdeus wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Slight concern - am I correct in thinking - RAW that we can;t ally or be allied with as the Ally Matrix does not talk about Adepta Sororitas and there is nothing official to say that you read one as the other.

It won't likely matter for pick up games but for those who get all up tight about RAW?

If someone claims you cannot ally because GW arbitrarily changed the name of the army I would strongly reconsider playing against that person. No TO is going to rule that Sisters cannot ally with anyone

Have you read all those scary RAW threads

 Mr Morden wrote:

It won't likely matter for pick up games but for those who get all up tight about RAW?

That just saves time. A person who would have problem with this is not a person worth playing against in the first place.

You mean they didn't take the time to add two lines to the Army Special Rules section to make that crystal clear? Oh well, spot one of the earliest entries to the FAQ when it gets released.

Troike wrote:So, a big drawback of the previous codex was its lack of flexibility. Generally, we were confined to a few specific builds in order to be competetive. I'm curious about the consensus of the flexibility of this new codex. To me, it seems like we've got some more flexibility, now?

pretre wrote:

 Troike wrote:
To me, it seems like we've got some more flexibility, now?

Yes, there seem to be 2-4 good builds you can make not counting allies so far.

I'm going to disagree with pretre here. Overall, I'd say we lost flexibility.

1. CCS: I know few people ever took them before, but with the loss of Relentless from their AoF, there is no reason to take a heavy weapon based Celestian Command Squad now.
2. Heavy Support: Nerf to PEs (loss of attacks, loss of Battle Frenzy), and AoF nerf means Retributors are sidelined. HS at this point is Exorcist x3.
3. Dominions. AoF is pointless for FlamerMinions, and noone ever took Storm Bolters before (and still won't). I suspect most will be Melta x4.

Sure, some things have become more flexible. The canoness might actually take the field after the Celestein nerf. You can have a ton of Conclaves, Priests are grossly undercosted (free Rosarius for everyone!), and BSS can spam Immolaters in the era that killed RazorSpam. But for fielding actual Adeptus Sororitas? The army lost out.

 streamdragon wrote:
I'm going to disagree with pretre here. Overall, I'd say we lost flexibility.

I'm going to disagree with your disagreement.

 streamdragon wrote:
1. CCS: I know few people ever took them before, but with the loss of Relentless from their AoF, there is no reason to take a heavy weapon based Celestian Command Squad now.

We gained other options though, like the all power weapon wielding CCS who stacks nicely with the Canoness' ability. The AoF is more in line with what the Canoness does and since the AoF are in different phases both can be used in the same turn. This is actually a buff for the Canoness.

 streamdragon wrote:
2. Heavy Support: Nerf to PEs (loss of attacks, loss of Battle Frenzy), and AoF nerf means Retributors are sidelined. HS at this point is Exorcist x3.

Heavy support was already basically Exorcists x3. The loss of the D6+1 attacks means we lost one attack on average, but we're more consistent. Battle Frenzy disappearing was their real nerf but dropping 5 points makes that more consistent. I don't know many people who didn't run triple Exorcists as is, but I do want to point out that Retributors with rending Heavy Bolters were just too cheap. At least all three of their heavies are the same cost now so the Rending Heavy Flamer option is 40 points cheaper than it was before.

 streamdragon wrote:
3. Dominions. AoF is pointless for FlamerMinions, and noone ever took Storm Bolters before (and still won't). I suspect most will be Melta x4.

Most suggestions for Dominions I've seen where alpha-striking enemy tanks with them so this works fine for me. It just means that Leman Russ behind an Aegis can be more easilly killed now.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Heavy support was already basically Exorcists x3. […] but I do want to point out that Retributors with rending Heavy Bolters were just too cheap.

I just don't understand what you mean. You just seem to contradict yourself ! And I did play one exorcist and one heavy bolter squad.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Heavy support was already basically Exorcists x3. […] but I do want to point out that Retributors with rending Heavy Bolters were just too cheap.

I just don't understand what you mean. You just seem to contradict yourself ! And I did play one exorcist and one heavy bolter squad.

They were 19 points per Rending Heavy Bolter and you could have 4. That option was too cheap for what we were running and I'm pretty sure everyone knew it. If you took Retributors you didn't even look at the other options because of how dang inexpensive that was

As for the Exorcists, most lists I've seen, had at least 2 if not 3 of the things. They've been our go-to heavy support since C:WH and it's actually surprising it got cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Heavy support was already basically Exorcists x3. […] but I do want to point out that Retributors with rending Heavy Bolters were just too cheap.

I just don't understand what you mean. You just seem to contradict yourself ! And I did play one exorcist and one heavy bolter squad.

It's only a contradiction if the two statements are actually opposing each other. HB Retributors were too cheap for what they rocked and Exorcists have been the primary go-to Heavy Support for most players. No contradictions here.

I ran 3 Exorcists in 90% of my games, occasionally I ran a rending Heavy Bolter squad to shake it up... Not that it was much of a shakeup! Now my games will be 90% 3 Exorcists and a 4 Heavy Flamer squad occasionally.

Anyone who tried to play Sisters competitively since their chapter approved article when they got exorcists has run 3. The change to retributers is actually like their WD list pre-chapter approved

Even under Codex Witch Hunters most of us who tried to run competitive lists ran 3 Exorcists...

 streamdragon wrote:
I'm going to disagree with pretre here. Overall, I'd say we lost flexibility.

1. CCS: I know few people ever took them before, but with the loss of Relentless from their AoF, there is no reason to take a heavy weapon based Celestian Command Squad now.
2. Heavy Support: Nerf to PEs (loss of attacks, loss of Battle Frenzy), and AoF nerf means Retributors are sidelined. HS at this point is Exorcist x3.
3. Dominions. AoF is pointless for FlamerMinions, and noone ever took Storm Bolters before (and still won't). I suspect most will be Melta x4.

Sure, some things have become more flexible. The canoness might actually take the field after the Celestein nerf. You can have a ton of Conclaves, Priests are grossly undercosted (free Rosarius for everyone!), and BSS can spam Immolaters in the era that killed RazorSpam. But for fielding actual Adeptus Sororitas? The army lost out.

No one took CCS because they were expensive and had a canoness tax. Guess what? Canoness are good now and command squads can spam heavies or specials or power weapons and give great buffs to the army. Hence, much better.
PEs have always sucked. Retributors are more reliable and got the easy bake oven back. I can't tell you how many times I failed my 4+ or 5+ AOF for rets. Having it be on Ld 9 or higher depending on my army is awesome. Also, HS has almost always been Exo x3 except for rare corner cases like bastion lists.
Dominions aren't the flamer guys anymore. They are the ignore cover melta guys. We lost flexibility to gain power here. On the other hand, Seraphim and Celestians both make good flamers as do BSS since HF got cheap as hell And you got the easy bake oven in HQ and Heavy, if you want it. We are not lacking for flamers anymore.

Expand your ideas of what a good sisters list is. We just got a lot more options.

Hello,

I am writing to you to seek a refund for my purchase of the epub / mobi version of the new Codex Adepta Sororitas. I purchased this version in order to be able to view it in different formats, however having seen the low quality of the production I am utterly appalled and think this is the most unprofessional piece of penmanship I've ever seen from any company. In order to prove that I am not simply seeking a free download, please see the itunes receipt below. I was so disorientated by the various empty pages, tables crossing multiple pages and general low quality of the document I felt I had to spend an additional £25 just to view the Codex.

I purchased the eBook edition on 11/10/13 with order number ******. Please let me know how and when I will receive my refund.

Many thanks,

pretre wrote:Canoness are good now

Hum, what ? Did I miss something ?

@Still Standing: I'd put that in quote tags and give us some context to for that next time.

And I'm quite curious to hear the answer if there is one.

Makes me glad I got the iPad one.

Oddly enough I've found out that the ebook one doesn't include the Seraphim Superior in who can take an Eviscerator on the wargear list while she is included in the iPad's annotation for the same thing. (and her options is weird in the first place since she doesn't have real access to the melee weapons list anyways).

Lots of people are bitching about flamer dominions being nerfed.

IMO 5 dominions with 4 flamers and an unused ignore cover AoF better than 2 flamers with AoF TL that's unreliable.

Even though I consider flamer dominions improved 4 Ignore cover melta guns is even better. The problem isn't that the unit sucks, it's that it competes against something better in the force org slot.

The only bad thing I can say about dominions is they bleed kill points like crazy in the scouring if they are used for a suicidal alpha strike, but I guess they can always outflank instead.

That's a great point. 4 Flamers is better than 2 flamers twin linked.

schadenfreude wrote:IMO 5 dominions with 4 flamers and an unused ignore cover AoF better than 2 flamers with AoF TL that's unreliable.

4+ rerollable is not reallty unreliable, and 5 flamers 10 bolters twin-linked is WAY better to clear off an objective than just 5 flamers not twin-linked. I guess I could use two squads of 5 flame-throwers to get even better results but… oh wait, no, I have already burned up all my other FA choices. How strange ? On the other hand, I got plenty of room for Elite slots, HQ slots, and troops slot.

So what is the new fluff, that the ads spoke of?

 Still Standing wrote:
Hello,

I am writing to you to seek a refund for my purchase of the epub / mobi version of the new Codex Adepta Sororitas. I purchased this version in order to be able to view it in different formats, however having seen the low quality of the production I am utterly appalled and think this is the most unprofessional piece of penmanship I've ever seen from any company. In order to prove that I am not simply seeking a free download, please see the itunes receipt below. I was so disorientated by the various empty pages, tables crossing multiple pages and general low quality of the document I felt I had to spend an additional £25 just to view the Codex.

I purchased the eBook edition on 11/10/13 with order number ******. Please let me know how and when I will receive my refund.

Many thanks,

the reason for the empty pages is because that's how epub is. it makes its own page breaks depending on how much fits on the screen and the editor added page breaks also apparently. when you zoom out as far as you can (making the text as small as possible) you get a better idea what the the editor intended the page to look like.

 Kroothawk wrote:
So what is the new fluff, that the ads spoke of?

All the Sisters who died in the Bloodtide are now honored martyrs.

They expanded on the Major Orders and gave some lines about the flexibility of Minor Orders. They also listed some of their battles and victories. Minor stuff, but nice.

There were also some new quotes (at least I assume they were new). I liked the one where an Immolator fries some Warp Spiders while they were busy being arrogant behind some ruins. The units also had their fluff expanded a bit, a prime example being how Seraphim Superiors are highly respected within their Order.

 Troike wrote:
The units also had their fluff expanded a bit, a prime example being how Seraphim Superiors are highly respected within their Order.

Erm ... you consider that an expansion of fluff?
Well, maybe considering the lack of respect shown by GW: Seraphim Superiors still not available in Europe.

You know, Kroot would know these things if he'd read the book instead of waiting for people to tell him about it

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You know, Kroot would know these things if he'd read the book instead of waiting for people to tell him about it

Hey, I am not that dumb to buy this ... product.

And I don't own an IPad or tablet and won't take a computer to a gaming event. I wait until they get a real release.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Erm ... you consider that an expansion of fluff?

Read my post again. I was giving it as an example for my point about unit fluff being added to, and that in turn was meant as an addition to what others had posted above.

So yes, plenty of new fluff in there.

Troike wrote:So yes, plenty of new fluff in there.

I wouldn't say plenty. I would say tiny piece of new fluff sparkled around


This made me laugh :

 Kroothawk wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You know, Kroot would know these things if he'd read the book instead of waiting for people to tell him about it

Hey, I am not that dumb to buy this ... product.

And I don't own an IPad or tablet and won't take a computer to a gaming event. I wait until they get a real release.

Ones willingingness to purchase the current rules for their army is not a test of ones intelligence but their willingness to adapt and change with the times.

You can print the eBook, it's in the ToS so that is just an excuse anyways.

So after reading the codex, I think my next unit shall be a command squad. They seem to be a viable choice now, and I've just been itching to model and paint some Celestians. Ideally, I'm going to have them all helmeted with a fleur adorning the helmet, along with the helmet markings they had in Soulstorm. I may have to resort to gouging some heads off (if that's even possible to do well with these metal models), but I think I'll have a lot of fun making them.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I wouldn't say plenty. I would say tiny piece of new fluff sparkled around


This made me laugh :

Spoiler:

 Troike wrote:
There were also some new quotes (at least I assume they were new). I liked the one where an Immolator fries some Warp Spiders while they were busy being arrogant behind some ruins. The units also had their fluff expanded a bit, a prime example being how Seraphim Superiors are highly respected within their Order.

The Eldar BBQ story is from the 1997 Sisters of Battle Codex, page 47. It's a book worth looking out for.

 Troike wrote:

Regarding the picture, what's amusing is that from a fluff standpoint, it's the opposite way around. 5e Celestine became (and remains) immortal and unkillable in the fluff. Heck, Celestine herself even says that she won't die until the Emperor claims her, in this codex.

You mean people think she is immortal and she haven't died thus far. And obviously if she dies, people will say 'it was Emperor's will.' Now rules-wise she is about as much immortal as Yarrick.

Troike wrote:I dunno, I thought we got quite a meaty helping of fluff.

Not that much. There was more new stuff in WD293UK. Which was a 6-page-long WD article… and the single most interesting source of fluff for the Sisters, with the never-again-mentioned Sabines.

Troike wrote:5e Celestine became (and remains) immortal and unkillable in the fluff. Heck, Celestine herself even says that she won't die until the Emperor claims her, in this codex.

Well, that's what she says, yes. Vandire said he was too busy to die, too, and we know how that ended up. As far as we know, she is just lucky and very willing not to give up, not some magic undead.

 Crimson wrote:
You mean people think she is immortal and she haven't died thus far.

Nah, the fluff still says that she's immortal, IMO. It still talks about her magically showing up at times of need, and even says that every time she is dealt a mortal blow, she miraculously comes back to life.

And as I said, Celestine herself says so this time around, but I'm guessing that you're not going to see her as a reliable source?

 Crimson wrote:
Now rules-wise she is about as much immortal as Yarrick.

I think this was done out of a need for rules balance, though. The fluff still very much has her as unkillable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
not some magic undead.

She's very clearly magical. her fluff has her flying around on a "column of divine radiance", and instilling feelings of adoration or terror in people who look at her, depending on the purity of their souls.

And, of course, she is able to spontaneously appear and vanish again. Pretty magical, I'd say.

She is not said to 'magically' appear and vanish. She appears in times of need. That's not necessarily magical. People seem to have this idea that she pops out of thin air like Q in Star Trek but that is just an extrapolation and not actually stated in the fluff.

And even if her fluff, the description of her 'miraculous' resurrection starts with 'it is said...', ie. even the propaganda filled fluff states it as hearsay. Now of course she is described as supernatural, because that's what the people of the Imperium believe, but that in itself is no proof that she actually is. (I'm not saying that she can't be, though.)

 Troike wrote:
She's very clearly magical. her fluff has her flying around on a "column of divine radiance"

That may be the same kind of magical as Vandire's “magic immunity to lasgun shoot to the head” !

We know she has died at least once. She was a Sister Repentia, died. And came back as Saint Celestine (more or less). She's a cross between Mephiston and Jesus.

 Still Standing wrote:
We know she has died at least once. She was a Sister Repentia, died. And came back as Saint Celestine (more or less). She's a cross between Mephiston and Jesus.

You mean they thought she died.

 Crimson wrote:
eople seem to have this idea that she pops out of thin air like Q in Star Trek but that is just an extrapolation and not actually stated in the fluff.

So... What else happens? How else would she suddenly appear in desperate battles, only to vanish again afterwards? I know it's worded vaguely, but I'm not seeing any other explanation beyond magical shenanigans.

The Promethium War is a specific example of this, with her appearing and then vanishing again.

 Crimson wrote:
And even if her fluff, the description of her 'miraculous' resurrection starts with 'it is said...', ie. even the propaganda filled fluff states it as hearsay

Though the newest description for her Act of Faith does outright state that it's death that she's coming back from.


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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
That may be the same kind of magical as Vandire's “magic immunity to lasgun shoot to the head” !

Though we, the readers, know that he was cheating. With Celestine, I don't think that her abilities can be explained as results of technology or sheer willpower.

My personal theory is she's a "daemon prince" of the Star Child.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Troike wrote:
The units also had their fluff expanded a bit, a prime example being how Seraphim Superiors are highly respected within their Order.

Erm ... you consider that an expansion of fluff?
Well, maybe considering the lack of respect shown by GW: Seraphim Superiors still not available in Europe.

Very underwhelmed by the fluff in the codex, nothing I haven't seen before. Really like the fact that priests gain a much more important role, just feels right with priests leading Sisters into battle. My biggest gripe is that the codex seems to be based around stock levels. Kyrinov sold out? He gets dropped [leaving us with only 2! special characters]. 'Fine'cast sales not what they should be? Give the option to take 60 arco-flagellants/DCAs/Crusaders. Seraphim superior is, somewhat strangely, an optional upgrade. Is that because again she is sold out? Just leaves a bitter taste that decisions are taken due to whatever is not selling or is out of stock.

 Troike wrote:

So... What else happens? How else would she suddenly appear in desperate battles, only to vanish again afterwards? I know it's worded vaguely, but I'm not seeing any other explanation beyond magical shenanigans.

The Promethium War is a specific example of this, with her appearing and then vanishing again.

She wanders around the galaxy like a crazy person, hitchhiking on starships an occasionally stumbles into battles? I don't know, heroes, 'mysteriously appear and disappear' in fiction all the time, without them having any magical powers. It's a narrative conceit.

Though the newest description for her Act of Faith does outright state that it's death that she's coming back from.

As befits her legend. That doesn't mean that this is what actually happens. Is Yarrick magical undead too?

Though we, the readers, know that he was cheating. With Celestine, I don't think that her abilities can be explained as results of technology or sheer willpower.

Also luck. But I think they can be explained like that just fine, especially as we consider what other individuals in the same setting are capable of. Of course you don't have to. I personally prefer all that Sororita faith stuff, saints included, to be left vague. The Emperor might really be watching over them, or they could be just delusional fanatics.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Troike wrote:
The units also had their fluff expanded a bit, a prime example being how Seraphim Superiors are highly respected within their Order.

Erm ... you consider that an expansion of fluff?
Well, maybe considering the lack of respect shown by GW: Seraphim Superiors still not available in Europe.

Very underwhelmed by the fluff in the codex, nothing I haven't seen before. Really like the fact that priests gain a much more important role, just feels right with priests leading Sisters into battle. My biggest gripe is that the codex seems to be based around stock levels. Kyrinov sold out? He gets dropped [leaving us with only 2! special characters]. 'Fine'cast sales not what they should be? Give the option to take 60 arco-flagellants/DCAs/Crusaders. Seraphim superior is, somewhat strangely, an optional upgrade. Is that because again she is sold out? Just leaves a bitter taste that decisions are taken due to whatever is not selling or is out of stock.

I had my cynic hat on when I first saw the codex coming out and looking at the bundles I was thinking GW might have been wanting to try and shift some stale product before the new shiny plastics come in...

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Troike wrote:
The units also had their fluff expanded a bit, a prime example being how Seraphim Superiors are highly respected within their Order.

Erm ... you consider that an expansion of fluff?
Well, maybe considering the lack of respect shown by GW: Seraphim Superiors still not available in Europe.

Very underwhelmed by the fluff in the codex, nothing I haven't seen before. Really like the fact that priests gain a much more important role, just feels right with priests leading Sisters into battle. My biggest gripe is that the codex seems to be based around stock levels. Kyrinov sold out? He gets dropped [leaving us with only 2! special characters]. 'Fine'cast sales not what they should be? Give the option to take 60 arco-flagellants/DCAs/Crusaders. Seraphim superior is, somewhat strangely, an optional upgrade. Is that because again she is sold out? Just leaves a bitter taste that decisions are taken due to whatever is not selling or is out of stock.

Like I said, Codex: Priests (and their bitches)

Old faq has been pulled. Hopefully that means a new one is incoming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:
Like I said, Codex: Priests (and their bitches)

If you were aware of the history of the army, you would know that this is far from the first time that priests and ecclesiarchy were a central part of the list.

Keep flogging that talking point though.

 pretre wrote:
Old faq has been pulled. Hopefully that means a new one is incoming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:
Like I said, Codex: Priests (and their bitches)

If you were aware of the history of the army, you would know that this is far from the first time that priests and ecclesiarchy were a central part of the list.

Keep flogging that talking point though.

Some people just fail to understand what "Militant Arm of the Ecclesiarchy" means I suppose.

I think the new option to bring large amounts of Arco-Flagellants is kind of neat. We get a way to provide (relatively) cheap screening units, and the Conclaves give the army some nice combat counter punch without messing with the Sisters themselves too much. Even outside of that the Priests aren't a bad buff to the army either and they're points cost makes sense (10pt model + 15pt Rosarius). They're not too overpowered, provide some nice buffs and fit the army nicely. I think some people just have to be Negative Nancies about everything though.

Now I just need a cheap arcoflagellant counts-as. Hmm. Redemptionists? Or do you think the guns detract from that?

Oh and something I forgot: the Ecclesiarchy employing large numbers of Arco-Flagellants is pretty fluffy. Someone has to punish the damned and we use to only get them through bringing Priests before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:
Now I just need a cheap arcoflagellant counts-as. Hmm. Redemptionists? Or do you think the guns detract from that?

Just use regular Flagellants if you don't want Arco-Flagellants.

 Crimson wrote:
She wanders around the galaxy like a crazy person, hitchhiking on starships an occasionally stumbles into battles?

But I don't see how mere wandering, or hitchhiking, could continually get here right into the heart of an intense warzone, preciesely when she needed to be there.

 Crimson wrote:
As befits her legend. That doesn't mean that this is what actually happens. Is Yarrick magical undead too?

But does Yarrirck's ability say that it's him coming back from death?

 Crimson wrote:
The Emperor might really be watching over them, or they could be just delusional fanatics.

I'm of the opinion that the Emperor either doesn't really have a hand in all of the "miraculous" things that happen to the Sisters, or that he does have some small influence on things. For example, as Still Standing touched upon, it's very easy to view Celestine as a sort of Daemon Prince of the Emperor, if you're so inclined.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I think some people just have to be Negative Nancies about everything though.

I normally try to avoid making points like this... but yes, I think there's some truth in that, some people have gotten into an overly negative mindset regarding the Sisters, IMO. There were some people who were still throwing around "Squat" when this codex came out, and insisted that we only got this because for some reason GW isn't allowed to drop and army ever again and is thus "forced" to make updates for the SoB.

 pretre wrote:
Old faq has been pulled. Hopefully that means a new one is incoming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:
Like I said, Codex: Priests (and their bitches)

If you were aware of the history of the army, you would know that this is far from the first time that priests and ecclesiarchy were a central part of the list.

Keep flogging that talking point though.

And if you were a long-time fan of the army, you should know that this is far from the first time that at least some players have had a problem with GW "forcing" priests on players who would rather have a Sisters of Battle army that is composed of, well, Sisters of Battle and not all the other Ecclesiarchy freak show models...

Valete,


JohnS

They aren't forcing them on you. You can make a perfectly legal army without them. It makes sense that an army containing a wider variety of elements of the churches armies would be more powerful than one which is limited to a narrow spectrum.

 cygnnus wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Old faq has been pulled. Hopefully that means a new one is incoming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 streamdragon wrote:
Like I said, Codex: Priests (and their bitches)

If you were aware of the history of the army, you would know that this is far from the first time that priests and ecclesiarchy were a central part of the list.

Keep flogging that talking point though.

And if you were a long-time fan of the army, you should know that this is far from the first time that at least some players have had a problem with GW "forcing" priests on players who would rather have a Sisters of Battle army that is composed of, well, Sisters of Battle and not all the other Ecclesiarchy freak show models...

Valete,


JohnS

The Ecclesiarchy has been a part of the army since it was an army. I fail to see how this is something that's being forced when it's something that is such a deeply ingrained part of the army. It's like complaining that Spaces Marines have bolters.

 cygnnus wrote:
And if you were a long-time fan of the army, you should know that this is far from the first time that at least some players have had a problem with GW "forcing" priests on players who would rather have a Sisters of Battle army that is composed of, well, Sisters of Battle and not all the other Ecclesiarchy freak show models...

I'm assuming you're talking about the freak show backlash at C:WH. I'm talking about the fact that C:SOB (2nd edition), Codex Black Book (3rd edition rulebook), Codex Chapter Approved (3rd Edition WHite Dwarf) were all very priest centric and had priests and your 'freak show' models taking a major role.

Know your SOB history.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Now I just need a cheap arcoflagellant counts-as. Hmm. Redemptionists? Or do you think the guns detract from that?

Just use regular Flagellants if you don't want Arco-Flagellants.

I don't have 60 flagellants. I do have 60 redemptionists.

 pretre wrote:

 cygnnus wrote:
And if you were a long-time fan of the army, you should know that this is far from the first time that at least some players have had a problem with GW "forcing" priests on players who would rather have a Sisters of Battle army that is composed of, well, Sisters of Battle and not all the other Ecclesiarchy freak show models...

I'm assuming you're talking about the freak show backlash at C:WH. I'm talking about the fact that C:SOB (2nd edition), Codex Black Book (3rd edition rulebook), Codex Chapter Approved (3rd Edition WHite Dwarf) were all very priest centric and had priests and your 'freak show' models taking a major role.

Know your SOB history.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Now I just need a cheap arcoflagellant counts-as. Hmm. Redemptionists? Or do you think the guns detract from that?

Just use regular Flagellants if you don't want Arco-Flagellants.

I don't have 60 flagellants. I do have 60 redemptionists.

I'd just make sure your opponent knows what is what then.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
And if you were
I'd just make sure your opponent knows what is what then.

That's what I'm asking. If you were my opponent at a local store tournament, would that be cool or annoying.

And I only have 40 without special weapons.

 pretre wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
And if you were
I'd just make sure your opponent knows what is what then.

That's what I'm asking. If you were my opponent at a local store tournament, would that be cool or annoying.

And I only have 40 without special weapons.

Personally I'm pretty laid back about it, but I'd ask your local game store as I don't know what sorts of players they are.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Some people just fail to understand what "Militant Arm of the Ecclesiarchy" means I suppose.

Guess it means that the civilians (priests) accompanying them are the best unit with the most firepower

Funny 1850 List

Uriah
20 SIsters with MM/Flamer, VSS, Simulacrum
5 Priests, 1 With Litanies
Aegis with Quad
3x 8 Arcos/2 Crusaders
1 x 9 Arcos/1 Crusader
2 x 5 BSS with HF/F in TL-MM Immo
Dominions (6) with 4 Melta, VSS, Simulacrum in Rhino
3 x Exorcists

Uriah gives all of the Arcos Fearless and Counter Attack. He chills with the 20 sisters. Pass Priests around to either the arcos or the BSS/Doms. Wall of flesh charging forward.

Still Standing wrote:I'm talking about the fact that C:SOB (2nd edition), Codex Black Book (3rd edition rulebook), Codex Chapter Approved (3rd Edition WHite Dwarf) were all very priest centric and had priests and your 'freak show' models taking a major role.

They had the priests, but as far as I know, they had no freak show, i.e. no arcoflagellants, no DCA, no crusader, but some good old frateris militia instead. They were the Ecclesiarchy, not the Inquisitor The Game residue…

 Kroothawk wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Some people just fail to understand what "Militant Arm of the Ecclesiarchy" means I suppose.

Guess it means that the civilians (priests) accompanying them are the best unit with the most firepower

Guess the squeaky wheel doesn't shut up even when it gets greased.

Have to say, I'm a little annoyed at the gallery section. It promises to show us "miniatures showing the liveries of several different Orders Militant", yet all Sisters shown are in Martyred Lady colours, with the exception of one Sacred Rose Canoness. Was rather disappointed to not see any Argent Shroud or Valorous Heart minis.

Also, just to clarify- the melee weapons list says "power weapon", so I have the option of giving five Celestians in a Command Squad an axe, maul, sword or lance, right?

pretre wrote:If you were aware of the history of the army, you would know that this is far from the first time that priests and ecclesiarchy were a central part of the list.

Keep flogging that talking point though.

Because when Codex: Tau came out, and people called it "Codex: Markerlights", they were referring to markerlights being new!
To make it clear: Priests (and conclave spam) is the most inarguably buffed part of the book. Funnily enough, the part that is not "Sisters of Battle"

ClockworkZion wrote:
Some people just fail to understand what "Militant Arm of the Ecclesiarchy" means I suppose.

I think the new option to bring large amounts of Arco-Flagellants is kind of neat. We get a way to provide (relatively) cheap screening units, and the Conclaves give the army some nice combat counter punch without messing with the Sisters themselves too much. Even outside of that the Priests aren't a bad buff to the army either and they're points cost makes sense (10pt model + 15pt Rosarius). They're not too overpowered, provide some nice buffs and fit the army nicely. I think some people just have to be Negative Nancies about everything though.

1. See above. Some of us also prefer to stick to the "Sisters of Battle" roots, but that's a taste thing not an actual rules argument.

2. Arco-Flags are 10ppm for T3 with FnP (5+). Battle Sisters are 12ppm for T3 with 3+/6++. For just about every single weapon out there, Sisters are a far better screening unit than Arcos especially for 2ppm. Against anything S6+ BSS are better. Against anything AP<3 Sisters are better. The only weapon, off the top of my head, where Arcos are a better wrap is the Reaper Launcher. S5 AP3 means the 5+ FnP is better than the 6++ for Shield of Faith. Arcos don't even have squad size advantage over BSS because they're limited to 10. Their only advantage is not taking a force org slot, but when was the last time someone fielded 6 BSS squads?

3. "[Priests are] not too overpowered". "[Priests'] point cost makes sense". Are they overpowered, or appropriately costed? 25 points for a priest is a steal. 25 points to provide Fearless and Hatred (constantly, as opposed to once per game like the Canoness mind), on a model with a built in 4++. Absolute steal. No argument here.

I'm not simply wanting to be a negative nancy. Quite the opposite. I wanted this new book to be good. It's nice to want things.

Breakdown of badness:

Acts of Faith: I'll detail specific acts by unit. Once per game, per unit, is not scaling. It's stupid, especially with how weak most AoF are and how limited in scope they are. This is supposed to be the army defining ability. Well, I suppose in a way it does define the AS army: weak. IG Orders (as an example of another Army ability) are way more useful, and yet are used multiple times a turn. I'm sure there are others I can't think of, but the only other "Once Per Game" army ability I can think of (as opposed to unit abilities like a SM CM Orbital Strike) is the Ork Waaagh!. (Which is also widely considered weak...) I also suspect people will play their timing all wrong again, but we'll get to that below under the SCS. "But Stream, with certain wargear you can get 1 more AoF per game for a unit!" I'm glad you said that Other Stream, because that brings up point 1:

Imagifier: Lose the model, no acts of Faith at all for that unit anymore! Guess whose eating Barrage and Precision shots first? And she can't LoS! as she's not a character. It's dumb that an item we pay for to use weak abilities more than once per Game! also means we might lose them entirely.

Relics:

Blade of Admonition: SM Relic blade. Except the SM Relic Blade is not one per army, and is on a more durable, stronger, better CC model. Oh, it's also 5 points CHEAPER.
Cloak of Saint Aspira: 20 points to reroll armor saves is okay I guess. Because let's be real, a Priest probably isn't taking this and a Canoness isn't taking this without a Rosarius. (Which the cloak doesn't do anything for.)

Units:

Celestine: Her new AoF at least gets her up with full wounds, but she's still T3 with no Eternal Warrior. I guess at least the Ardent Blade is no longer a heavy flamer, so it can hurt an Avatar? I dunno, I'm stretching there. Not much nerf here actually. Oh, and while I understand RAW says if you opt not to use her AoF then opponents don't get points for Slay the Warlord and the like, but let's be real. That's probably not RAI.

Canoness: Still no jump pack option, so if you want a leader for your Seraphim you're forced to take Celestine. Her AoF gives Hatred, which priests have without a leadership test of any kind. Practically the definition of "weaksauce".

Sororitas Command Squad: As I said before, their new AoF is useless if you wanted to run Heavy Weapon SCS. I used to run one with 3 MMs, as Relentless made taking the MM actually an option. Fun Fact: According to RAW, their AoF does nothing to assist in a charge, as the AoF must be used immediately before they strike in CC! So Fleet, for example, can't be used to reroll when charging. You also have to use it before you know if you've won a CC, so the Sweeping Advance portion of Crusader is a bit of a gamble. Good times. Good times. (Before you go crazy, I suspect like the Celestine AoF that this is NOT RAI.)

BSS: No actual real complaints here. Losing the regroup portion of Light of the Emperor sucks, but meh. Smaller squads is nice, as at least if you do take a Canoness now you can fit her into a DT somewhere.

Celestians: You can get Furious Charge once per game! Go you! Still can't take power weapons, or anything to make you actually good in CC, but +1S if you pass a leadership test and didn't make a disorganized charge! Let's face it. If you take a Simulacrum in this unit, you probably won't get to use your AoF anyway. Even the option to swap bolters for CCWs would have been helpful, but that's not exactly a nerf since it's nice like they could before. So still bad.

Repentia: Remember that special rule you used to have all the time? Now you get a boosted version once per game, that you can't use against shooting at all (even Overwatch!). Best hope your opponents aren't I4 or better, or you don't get to use it against CC attacks either! If the Mistress dies, you don't get to use it until I1!

Seraphim: No real change to their AoF. Still no eviscerator, but also Power Sword only now for some stupid reason. Also kept the I3 nerf from the WD codex, which is just bad.

Dominions: Getting 4 special weapons in a 5 girl squad back? Yay! AoF next to pointless for most builds? Boo! We've covered that before though, and people assure me that Ignore Cover once per game is better than TLing their weapons to make sure meltas hit. I remain skeptical. Also I feel the need to bring back up the hilarious nerf to Storm Bolters by making them 2 points more per gun. They actually made a hilariously bad option worse.

Retributors: Rending is still nice, even once per game. Sidelines HBtributors, but HFtributor suicide squads will be back at least! Woo. *finger twirl*

PEs: Attack nerf on two fronts, but hey, who fielded them before anyway right? (Besides me, I mean.) At least you save a whole 15 points on a squad of 3!

Exorcists: Still love these things. Still get dirty looks for plopping down 2 of em. Can't imagine the looks I'll get for 3.


Synergy:

There is some new synergy to the book: Priests. That's about it. AoF don't really work with each other all that well, or at all, with the exception of Canoness + Celestians. Which is hilariously bad, because you have 2 CC AoF on two nonCC units. Canoness + SCS 'works' okay, but it really doesn't do enough to make all 6 models actually good in CC.

The new Warlord Traits are alright, but some are just laughable.
1: Fear? Really? One of, if not the MOST, pointless rules in the game.
2: If I only ever rolled up this Trait, I would be happy.
3: Useful against mostly Eldar, but they have buff options on most of their powers which would circumvent your DtW roll anyway.
4: Rage is so good for all our CC warlords! All... 0 of them?
5: Funnily enough, this does more for Priests than SoB. It's also worse than the Laud Hailer, IMO, as reroll 8/9 > one shot 10.
6: 12" stubborn bubble is decent enough.


Well there you go. Round 1 of my reasoning for why my SoB models will either be painted green and called Salamanders, or stay on their shelf next to Nids. 0 real problems fixed, AoF neutered, but hey! I can field a bunch of Priests and Conclaves for my SoB army!

Sounds like it to me, Troike.


Also, as far as I'm concerned, if I add priest models, I'll be adding sororitas from a non-militant order instead of an ecclesiarchy priest so meh. That's only IF I add priests.

Wow wall of text. I think you're missing a bunch but I've already covered th same points multiple times in this and the other thread so feth it. Use salamanders rules. Enjoy!

Amazing how little effort GW put in this. All of the fluff is more or less reposted from the WD codex save a few paragraphs (themselves old material). The Black Legion Codex Supplement had far more fluff than this, which is telling because this was meant to be a full codex.

All the WD fluff god tweaked though and includes details that were absent before (like which Orders were involved in which events).

A lot of people are upset there was no millitants in the book. I say to you any new rule for millitants wouldn't be better than a fearless + hatred + reroll to wound + reroll armor saves IG blob with power axes. The 1 army with battle brothers pretty much covers everything that AS is lacking in a codex, and blobs synergize crazy well with priests.

 schadenfreude wrote:
A lot of people are upset there was no millitants in the book. I say to you any new rule for millitants wouldn't be better than a fearless + hatred + reroll to wound + reroll armor saves IG blob with power axes. The 1 army with battle brothers pretty much covers everything that AS is lacking in a codex, and blobs synergize crazy well with priests.

Where are these "lot of people" because I haven't seen them online.

By militants do you mean "Frateris Militia"?

 pretre wrote:
Wow wall of text. I think you're missing a bunch but I've already covered th same points multiple times in this and the other thread so feth it. Use salamanders rules. Enjoy!

If you say so! Enjoy your Codex: Priests!

 streamdragon wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Wow wall of text. I think you're missing a bunch but I've already covered th same points multiple times in this and the other thread so feth it. Use salamanders rules. Enjoy!

If you say so! Enjoy your Codex: Priests!

Enjoy your life of bitterness and cynicism!

Just realized Repentia can take a dedicated transport now. Cool.

Of course you have to be fething careful to dismount close enough to charge next turn but out of the enemy's line of sight.... and somehow prevent the enemy from moving to get in LOS on their turn. Hmmm.

If only we had an assault vehicle for them.... Homebrewing time!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Overall, setting aside buffs vs nerfs for a moment, this Codex's rules seem a lot simpler than White Dwarf's, which to my mind is a good thing. Notably

- Acts of Faith as a straightforward leadership test gets rid of an entire sub-system and the need to list which characters give what bonus. (I do miss the ability to concentrate Faith on a key unit, though the Simulacrum sort of does that).

- Spirit of the Martyr is a lot simpler: it's a buffed FNP instead of a paragraph about turning models on their side. (Of course I miss having FNP all the time.)

- Penitent Engines not having... um... whatever rule it was that made them get extra hits is a lot simpler. A nerf, but simpler.

Cost for the Sacred Banner of the Order Militant? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

hate the think, who cares about rerolls to moral anyway?

Wwbushidow wrote:
Cost for the Sacred Banner of the Order Militant? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

Check the Sororitas Command Squad entry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shadowsfm wrote:
hate the think, who cares about rerolls to moral anyway?

Armies who don't have other good ways to mitigate break or pinning checks. And who want to be able to rally if they are broken.

Wwbushidow wrote:
Cost for the Sacred Banner of the Order Militant? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

Umm... err.. it costs the same as 3 1/3 Battle Sisters. It's in the entry for the SCS.

Oi! No posting points costs! You trying to tick off the mods?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Oi! No posting points costs! You trying to tick off the mods?

Oh the horror! I've maybe fixed it?

Amerikon wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Oi! No posting points costs! You trying to tick off the mods?

Oh the horror! I've maybe fixed it?

No need to get lippy just because I'm trying to help you not have mods breathing down your neck about that. Just pointing him at the SCS Squad (like I did) was frankly enough. He didn't know where to find it, now he does. From there he can read it on his own. He's happy, the mods are happy and GW's lawyers don't get upset.

So, the codex somehow ends up being worse than the previous effort from WD, so it doesn't sell well.

People don't buy the models because they're overpriced as gak: $80 for ten infantry has even diehard fanboys saying "lol, nope!", and the fact that lots of people absolutely hate metal models doesn't make things any better.

GW looks at said poor sales of both crappy digital-only rules and insanely-priced pewter sculpts more than a decade old and deduces that people just don't like Sisters of Battle, which clearly has nothing at all to do with them and is purely because Sisters an icky girl army, so they languish for another 10+ years without any updates, and are mainly kept around in the background because the studio doesn't want to write them out completely (and corporate doesn't care enough to ignore what the studio wants and drop them anyway).

And if by some miraculous Act of Faith they did get a proper update, the models would probably still be way too expensive: likely $60 for ten infantry (because as the DE witch elves and the rumors about technology making SoB plastic production difficult show, making girl models is apparently hard!), or they remain $80 because "more options, more detail, etc.", $25-30 Finecast characters, and $60+ tanks/flyers. Rules would probably still be crap because "they can never be Ultramarines."

Now how's that for bitterness and cynicism? Are you impressed?

How good is a priest? Math Hammer time.

50 blob 2 priests in counter attack range from Jacobus charged by 20 khorne hounds and a hatred herald book is being used by a screamer star .
Overwatch going to simply it by removing special weapons/flamers and have all guns in double tap of the lead model
95 shots 15.83 hits 5.27 wounds=3.51 wounds=1 dead dog 1 wounded dog.
Sergeant calls out the herald on a juggy with an etherblade and gets splattered.
57 attacks from 19 dogs with hatred=50.666 hits=33.777 wounds=15 unsaved wounds after rerollabe 5+ saves.
30 regular guardsmen and 2 priests 68 attacks with counter attack and hatred=51 hits=28.333 wounds=18.888 unsaved wounds.
4 sergeants with power axes 16 attacks=12 hits=9 wounds=6 unsaved wounds +18.888 for the rest of the squad=24.888 wounds=13 dead dogs because 1 dog was wounded from overwatch.
Combat resolution.
Dogs 15 v IG 25. The 6 remaining dogs and herald have to make a deamonic instability at -10
If the dogs had a 3+ invo there would be 14 surviving dogs winning by +2 combat resolution versus a fearless unit.
Not bad against one of the game's most fearsome fast cc units.


Now the same for 20 sisters and 2 priests.
39 over watch shots=11.5 hits=5.75 wounds=3.83 rounding up to 2 dead dogs.
Sister superior calls out the herald on a juggy with an etherblade and gets splattered.
54 attacks from 18 dogs with hatred=48 hits=32 wounds=3.555 dead sisters round up to 4
30 attacks from 15 sisters=22.5 hits=12.5 wounds=8.3325 round down to 8 for 4 dead dogs.
8 attacks from priests=6 hits=4.5 wounds=3 for 1 more dead dog.
Combat res is 11 to 5 in favor of the sisters, or about 5 dead even if the dogs had the book up.
Not as good as the blob but it's a less expensive unit.

on the bright side, if they ever update the current digi-dex, your copy would be automatically updated, without having to buy a new one

(it would be lame if they release a new $30 codex when they finish the plastic models)

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Amerikon wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Oi! No posting points costs! You trying to tick off the mods?

Oh the horror! I've maybe fixed it?

No need to get lippy just because I'm trying to help you not have mods breathing down your neck about that. Just pointing him at the SCS Squad (like I did) was frankly enough. He didn't know where to find it, now he does. From there he can read it on his own. He's happy, the mods are happy and GW's lawyers don't get upset.

My apologies. Any snark was not directed at you, but at the idea that giving the points cost of a single item (when we give the points costs of units and whatnot all the time in every other thread) should be worthy of moderation. I was mocking the policy, not your suggestion that I follow it.

In summary: My bad!

 Troike wrote:
There were also some new quotes (at least I assume they were new). I liked the one where an Immolator fries some Warp Spiders while they were busy being arrogant behind some ruins. The units also had their fluff expanded a bit, a prime example being how Seraphim Superiors are highly respected within their Order.

That quote at least isn't new. Its from the second edition sisters of battle codex page 47. While not completely dissappointing I was expecting a little more from the hype. I'm usually pessimistic by nature, so when something good happens I derive that much more enjoyment out of it. I ignored my better sense this time as I was infected by the optimism of others and now I feel let down by this codex in terms of fluff and units. I too feel that this is codex Priests and their illegal flunkies. Its not what i wavted or hoped for for my girls.

 schadenfreude wrote:
How good is a priest? Math Hammer time.

50 blob 2 priests in counter attack range from Jacobus charged by 20 khorne hounds and a hatred herald book is being used by a screamer star .
Overwatch going to simply it by removing special weapons/flamers and have all guns in double tap of the lead model
95 shots 15.83 hits 5.27 wounds=3.51 wounds=1 dead dog 1 wounded dog.
Sergeant calls out the herald on a juggy with an etherblade and gets splattered.
57 attacks from 19 dogs with hatred=50.666 hits=33.777 wounds=15 unsaved wounds after rerollabe 5+ saves.
30 regular guardsmen and 2 priests 68 attacks with counter attack and hatred=51 hits=28.333 wounds=18.888 unsaved wounds.
4 sergeants with power axes 16 attacks=12 hits=9 wounds=6 unsaved wounds +18.888 for the rest of the squad=24.888 wounds=13 dead dogs because 1 dog was wounded from overwatch.
Combat resolution.
Dogs 15 v IG 25. The 6 remaining dogs and herald have to make a deamonic instability at -10
If the dogs had a 3+ invo there would be 14 surviving dogs winning by +2 combat resolution versus a fearless unit.
Not bad against one of the game's most fearsome fast cc units.


Now the same for 20 sisters and 2 priests.
39 over watch shots=11.5 hits=5.75 wounds=3.83 rounding up to 2 dead dogs.
Sister superior calls out the herald on a juggy with an etherblade and gets splattered.
54 attacks from 18 dogs with hatred=48 hits=32 wounds=3.555 dead sisters round up to 4
30 attacks from 15 sisters=22.5 hits=12.5 wounds=8.3325 round down to 8 for 4 dead dogs.
8 attacks from priests=6 hits=4.5 wounds=3 for 1 more dead dog.
Combat res is 11 to 5 in favor of the sisters, or about 5 dead even if the dogs had the book up.
Not as good as the blob but it's a less expensive unit.

actually thats wrong, in blobs, 2/3 of the unit won't be in range and therefor can't engage (right?)

So I just found a few things buried in the iPad Glossary: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/10/codex-adepta-sororitas-speculations.html

Anyone have their own takes on these things?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
For anyone who is already sick of me posting Sisters stuff, I'm sorry.

<--- not sick of your insight

shadowsfm wrote:
<--- not sick of your insight

Is that aimed at anyone in particular? Without quotes or a name it's hard to know who that's for.

fixed

shadowsfm wrote:
fixed

Fair enough! I just don't want to overdo it and drive people off because all I post is Sisters stuff.

played a 1000 point game a few hours ago using the relic map. i was using space wolves, while my opponent the sisters. my drop pod terminators ruined her day on turn one, which was a good diversion as i claimed the relics

shadowsfm wrote:


actually thats wrong, in blobs, 2/3 of the unit won't be in range and therefor can't engage (right?)

Depends how spread out the blob is. Deamon lists are often very short on templates. So are Necrons time for part 2

How good is a priest? Math Hammer time part 2 Dlord + wraiths.

50 blob 2 priests in counter attack range from Jacobus charged by 6 wraiths and a Dlord
Overwatch going to simply it by removing special weapons/flamers and have all guns in double tap of the lead model
95 shots 15.83 hits 5.27 wounds=3.51 wounds=tanked by the Dlord
Grunt fails MSS 2 attacks 1.5 wounds=.83 dead round up to 1.
Sergeant calls out the Dlord and gets splattered.
3 whip coils snare 12 models.
32 guardsmen swing with 64 attacks 48 hits =26.666 wounds=8.888 unsaved wounds=4 dead wraiths and a wound.
8 attacks from the 6 wraiths=5.328 hits + .888 PE hits for 6.21 hits which will average out to 5 wounds and a rend with PE=2.77 failed saves round up to 3 add the rend 4 dead guardsmen taken from the whips.
8 regular guardsmen swing 8 is 1/4 of 32 previous attacks=2.2222=1 dead wraith.
4 sergeants with power axes 16 attacks=12 hits=9 wounds=3 unsaved wounds =all wraiths dead Dlord loses fearless
Combat resolution.
IG 12 to Necron 5 Dlord needs to pass ld on a 3 and is likely to get swept.


Now the same for 20 sisters and 2 priests.
39 over watch shots=11.5 hits=5.75 wounds=Tanked by the Dlord
Sister superior calls out the Dlord and gets splattered.
Grunt fails MSS 2 attacks 1.5 wounds=.16 dead round down to zero
Sergeant calls out the Dlord splattered.
3 whip coils snare 12 models.
6 sisters swing 12 attacks 9 hits 5 wounds 3.33 failed save. 1 dead wraith
8 attacks from 2 priests is half that of 8 guardsmen or 1/8th of 64 guardsmen attacks above 1.1111 more wounds.
total of 4.444=2 dead wraiths.
16 attacks from the 4 wraiths=10.6hits + 1.8 more Pe=12.6 hits=2.1 rends+ 0.35 PE rends and 8.4 + 1.75 PE regular wounds= 2.45 rends and 10.15 wounds=1.7 dead from the rends and regular wounds goes down to 1.12. Total of 2.82 dead add .16 from mss for 2.98 round up to 3.
10 sisters swing 20 attacks 15 hit 8.3 wounds 2.7 unsaved wounds for a total of 7.2 wounds caused so far
Combat res is 7.2 to 4 but both units are fearless and it's going to be a long drawn out slog.

We don't know who actually wrote the codex, do we?

Last page in the iBook version says it is written by Cruddace.

CoteazRox wrote:
Last page in the iBook version says it is written by Cruddace.

Thanks, couldn't find it in the Epub version.

shadowsfm wrote:
on the bright side, if they ever update the current digi-dex, your copy would be automatically updated, without having to buy a new one
(it would be lame if they release a new $30 codex when they finish the plastic models)

You can bet that there will be a new digital Codex, once the real thing is released: "Lame" is their middle name
Keep in mind they just invalidated the printed WD Codex after only 2 years.
On the bright side: Any time another miniature mould wears out, this Codex will be updated

Edit: Seems like 40 pages or about 20% of the Digital Codex are copy-paste pics from the webstore.
And there is basically only one order featured in all pics, The Order of the Martyred Lady. Only exceptions are one canoness and one heavy flamer sororitas miniature (with a black instead of red tabard), both uncredited for their order though. Only hint on other colour schemes is the description "red armour", "white armour" or "silver armour" in the paragraph on each order.
No pic of any order insignia.

SisterSydney wrote:Overall, setting aside buffs vs nerfs for a moment, this Codex's rules seem a lot simpler than White Dwarf's, which to my mind is a good thing. Notably

- Acts of Faith as a straightforward leadership test gets rid of an entire sub-system and the need to list which characters give what bonus. (I do miss the ability to concentrate Faith on a key unit, though the Simulacrum sort of does that).

Yeah, well, only if you are playing Warmachine and therefore have LOTS of token all around to remember everything that needs to be remembered (How many Acts do this unit with a Simulacrum and Jacobus have left ?)
I already used those to keep track of hull points and health points, now it's going to be Act of Faith too. Or, maybe, just Fury and Knockdown and all that, if that Codex doesn't feel pleasant to play.

schadenfreude wrote:50 blob 2 priests in counter attack range from Jacobus charged by 20 khorne hounds and a hatred herald book is being used by a screamer star .

Ok, so are we talking Codex: Priest or Codex: Imperial Guard with some allies from Codex: Priest ?

schadenfreude wrote:Now the same for 20 sisters and 2 priests.
39 over watch shots=11.5 hits=5.75 wounds=3.83 rounding up to 2 dead dogs.

Well, you need 6 to hit, and 39/6 is 6.5, so 3.25 wound, 2.16 unsaved, rounding down to 1 dead dog. I'm pretty sure Hate don't allow to reroll overwatch.

ClockworkZion wrote:So I just found a few things buried in the iPad Glossary: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/10/codex-adepta-sororitas-speculations.html

Anyone have their own takes on these things?

Armor of Faith looks like Saint Celestine's Armor of Saint Katherine. The Artillery seems like they took another book as a starting template and didn't properly cleaned everything up. I don't understand what you are trying to read into Kyrinov's disappearance, but I think it's just they thought we had too many different units, and needed some to be removed.

I would much rather a living Sisters character from the fluff rather than another male priest............

And yet you got neither .

Pity there was no more Ecclesiarchy stuff added. I know some people prefer pure Sisters, but I'd love a full Ecclesiarchy army involving all parts of it.

Though the new priests are just incredible.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I would much rather a living Sisters character from the fluff rather than another male priest............

Given that there have only ever been three SC with models released that would be compatible with this book (Celestine, Jacobus and Kyrinov), and there was no way GW were going to do anything silly like give you rules fir a SC without a model, that wasn't going to happen. I do find it weird that Kyrinov got pulled, mind you - and I think he's still a great sculpt.

I've dug out my 2nd ed Codex: SoB, and there were three SCs that didn't see a model released - Saint Praxedes (almost certainly dead), Helena the Virtuous (possibly still alive), and Cardinal Armandus Helfire.

Mind you, the third one is probably excluded by some posters' allergy to male members of the Ecclesiarchy in an admy which acts as their military arm...

I doubt that GW are bothered what people say on the forum - I didn't say it was going to happen - just that I would have prefered it.

A nuymber of SC's are dead - its makes no diffrence.

Plus you think its better to have more Priests - ie non Adepta Sororitas characters - in a Adepta Sororitas Codex.

You were the one who mentioned a "living Sisters character", Mr Morden, not me.

And I'm not making a value judgement as to the balance of AS characters versus those of other agencies in their books to date. I was just observing that it was odd to remove an existing chsrscter, with a model, from the book.

GW seems to do things 70% good, and 30% garbage or random.
Sisters are the army for the Ecclesiarchy. Shouldn't they have better equipment? Blessed bolts, or Inferno bolts should be available to all units for a price.. It is a shooty army, they should be able to shoot better. Instead all that is taken away. Acts of Faith once per battle, when other armies have abilities that they can use the whole game? Rending ONCE, maybe twice per battle ONLY if you pass your Ld, and then ONLY if you roll 6s, and that's it. Why? Why take Stormbolters? If half of your Battle Sister troops could replace their Bolters with Stormbolters, then that would be better.

Priests are leaders whose Ld(7) is less that a normal troop(8), and they get War Hymns that they test off their Ld? Why?

Celestians AoF is for close combat, and they don't have access to CC weapons? Why?

No Skyfire? Why?

Eviscerator 30 points that only a Cannoness or a Priest (WS 3) can use. Why?

Mace of Valaan only a Priest (WS 3) can use. Why?

$700 for a one click army, when others are half that price or less. Why?

GW doesn't understand games, gamers or how to run a business. Just my opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also no flyer and no assault vehicle. WHY?

They have Power Armour and Bolters. That is the best equipment available already.

I was hoping we'd see Ephrael Stern when I saw there is even a picture of her in the book...

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Armor of Faith looks like Saint Celestine's Armor of Saint Katherine.

Well statwise yes, but like I mentioned, the link on the page points to the Canoness page. I think its wargear that got pulled.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
The Artillery seems like they took another book as a starting template and didn't properly cleaned everything up.

Quite possible, yes.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I don't understand what you are trying to read into Kyrinov's disappearance, but I think it's just they thought we had too many different units, and needed some to be removed.

He was an HQ choice and taking him away didn't thin down our unit selection much. I think that someone in GW higher up decided to not approve a new Kyrinov mold, and the Dev team had to pull him out of the codex fairly late in their short development cycle, but changed things so we could still use the model if we have him.

 Still Standing wrote:
They have Power Armour and Bolters. That is the best equipment available already.

Artificer armor and stormbolter. The Celestians should have that. At least.

Still Standing,

Power Armor is great, but Bolters are standard equipment to all non-Imperial Guard units. Standard equipment for the emperor's "chosen" seems odd without some extra upgrade, like blessed bolts or something like that.

And the Canoness should at least get the option to take War Hymns -- it's in her fluff, for God-Emperor's sake! Also Artificer Armour. So I homebrewed them (and a lot of other stuff for her).

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Well statwise yes, but like I mentioned, the link on the page points to the Canoness page. I think its wargear that got pulled.

With the mantle, the cape and an eviscerator, that would have made for a powerful, even though expensive, canoness. How course, they had to remove it. Powerful character must be marines or xenos only.

Wwbushidow wrote:
Still Standing,

Power Armor is great, but Bolters are standard equipment to all non-Imperial Guard units. Standard equipment for the emperor's "chosen" seems odd without some extra upgrade, like blessed bolts or something like that.

So standard for the top 0.01% of the Imperiums armies?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Well statwise yes, but like I mentioned, the link on the page points to the Canoness page. I think its wargear that got pulled.

With the mantle, the cape and an eviscerator, that would have made for a powerful, even though expensive, canoness. How course, they had to remove it. Powerful character must be marines or xenos only.

You can only pick 1 relic so no it wouldn't have.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You can only pick 1 relic so no it wouldn't have.

They really, really, really want us to suck !


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Still Standing wrote:
So standard for the top 0.01% of the Imperiums armies?

Do you mean that Sisters having bolter really succeed in conveying the idea that they are the elite troops of the richest and most powerful of all the Imperium's organizations, with often two, three or more representatives among the High Lords of Terra ?
Does “My Canoness has a power armor and a bolter” convey in any way this idea ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You can only pick 1 relic so no it wouldn't have.

They really, really, really want us to suck !

Someone over on Faeit pointed out that Armor of Faith is from the Emperor's Champion entry. So perhaps a reused template and a failed to be deleted entry from the Glossary, or something they were considering adding to the army. Interesting either way.

Yes, because the only people who can afford such equipment are Sisters and Space Marines.

Any comments by the fans that no insignia and no pics of other orders than Martyred Lady are featured?
Can we agree that this is a major and uncalled for flaw?

ClockworkZion wrote:Someone over on Faeit pointed out that Armor of Faith is from the Emperor's Champion entry.

You have your explanation, then. Reusing the Marines template was logical, because of all the shared equipment.

Still Standing wrote:Yes, because the only people who can afford such equipment are Sisters and Space Marines.

Since half the armies in the game are space marine, AND space marines have, like, hundreds of better wargear than that, no. It doesn't. Maybe it does for you, but not for anyone else.
Not to mention that Inquisitors have access to power armor and bolter, along better wargear, so no, Sisters and Marines are not the only one to which they are available. Actually, the only one to which it's unavailable, as far as we can see, is the Imperial Guard.

 Still Standing wrote:
Yes, because the only people who can afford such equipment are Sisters and Space Marines.

Well apart from Inquisitors, their henchpeople, Rogue Traders and the Mechanicum - all of whom can have these or better

 Kroothawk wrote:
Any comments by the fans that no insignia and no pics of other orders than Martyred Lady are featured?
Can we agree that this is a major and uncalled for flaw?

It's a reoccurring problem frankly and extends beyond this book. It's like GW forgets other orders exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:Someone over on Faeit pointed out that Armor of Faith is from the Emperor's Champion entry.

You have your explanation, then. Reusing the Marines template was logical, because of all the shared equipment.

Still Standing wrote:Yes, because the only people who can afford such equipment are Sisters and Space Marines.

Since half the armies in the game are space marine, AND space marines have, like, hundreds of better wargear than that, no. It doesn't. Maybe it does for you, but not for anyone else.
Not to mention that Inquisitors have access to power armor and bolter, along better wargear, so no, Sisters and Marines are not the only one to which they are available. Actually, the only one to which it's unavailable, as far as we can see, is the Imperial Guard.

You're making a fallacy here. Just because half the armies we have available in the game are Marines it doesn't mean half the armies in the setting are which is what matters more for purposes of how it "feels".

Also, ain't it funny how all the feedback on GW Digital's page is extremely positive, while on every forum I go to, it ranges from mixed to very bad ? I remember seeing a very very negative one on their page, but it seems it somehow gone now .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Just because half the armies we have available in the game are Marines it doesn't mean half the armies in the setting are which is what matters more for purposes of how it "feels".

No. Really, it's what army we regularly face that determine how one feel when facing a new one. If one face bolters 70% of the time, when facing Sisters, one thinks “It's the same as usual, but really weaker”. Not “this is a very powerful and rare weapon”. It's really the other way around, the fact space marines are rare in the fluff doesn't mean anything when playing the game.
It's the reason why everything introduced in Inquisitor, the game, was before way way weaker in every aspect than a space marine, and became way way stronger when it made it into 40K. Just look at the arcoflagellant ! According to the Inquisitor profile, it would be some S3T3A1 model without feel no pain.

I can assure you no-one ever ever described my sisters as “elite”. They were just “space marine light”. And now our (only real) HQ the Canoness is more like “joke character”. Any other codex bar Imperial Guard can make HQ that will eat ours for breakfast, and IG HQ give a lot of very good boost to their army, while ours don't. Oh, that's so going to make our army feels elite and well equipped when EVERY OTHER ARMY bar Imperial Guard can bring better wargear for their HQ.

C:WH is where you should be looking for the old version of the Arco. For comparative purposes I mean.

And when it comes to what the army is equipped with fluff matters more than anyones feels based on what they see on the table top. Just because you see Botlers a lot doesn't make them the wide spread available option in the setting so it's still "elite". You're arguing that you think it needs to be elite AND needs to feel special on the tabletop which is something I think are two different things.

Sisters are BS4, Ld8, with Bolter and Power Armour. In 40K that's elite. And yes, most of the armies in the game are 'elite armies' so it makes sisters feel less fancy in the actual game, but that's how it is.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
C:WH is where you should be looking for the old version of the Arco.

Yeah, that's precisely what I was comparing : Damien 1427 vs C:WH arcoflagellant. One of them will be completely destroyed if Artemis glance in his general direction, the other one is worth many marines in close combat.
Same thing for Severina and Sevora Devout vs C:WH Death Cult Assassins.
If you don't see that, your are either deaf, blind and stupid, or you have never looked at the Inquisitor the game profile and won't admit it.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Just because you see Botlers a lot doesn't make them the wide spread available option in the setting so it's still "elite".

It is. But it doesn't feel elite. At all. And that's why they artificially upped the arcoflagellant, because how it feels matters a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, let me give extend my Inquisitor/C:WH exemples :

Inquisitor :
Death Custist is WS85 BS60 S65 T60 I90
Arcoflagellant is WS60 BS20 S80 T80 I50
Space marine is WS75 BS75 S200 T150 I85

C:WH :
Death cultist is WS5 BS4 S4 T3 W2 I5 A2 and a 5++ from their innate abilities
Arcoflagellant is WS4 BS0 S4 T5 WI I4 A1d6 and a 4++ from their innate abilities
Marine is WS4 BS4 S4 T4 WI I4 A1

See how the arcoflagellant went from having just slightly more than half of the marine toughness to having one more point of toughness AND a 4++? And that came WITHOUT A SINGLE CHANGE IN THE FLUFF AS JUSTIFICATION.
Why did they do that ? Because they wanted the arcoflagellant to feel in game like it did in the fluff : some man transformed into a killing machine that is very powerful but totally oblivious of its own security once unleashed. For that, they had to match his abilities against those of the standard enemies it will be facing. That required to change a lot from Inquisitors skirmishes to 40k large-scale battles.
It's pretty easy to do the same with Sisters : you give them lots of special wargear, small stuff with quite big game effect, and especially you get awesome wargear for the elite part of the armies, mostly the Canoness and the Celestians, and there, your army looks elite and wealthy again. Just like the huge buff the eviscerator got when it entered 40k.


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http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480007a&categoryId=6700005a§ion=&aId=21500020a
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1050291a_Codex__Witch_Hunters
For reference, in case you don't trust my numbers.

I'm just going to have to disagree with you HSoO, I think this is more in your head than it is real.

Also, Inquisitor is a roleplay system with a different approach to the stats then when compared to the table top. Seriously, just let it go. We're not going to get superbolters just to make you happy.

Okay then, keep going feeling like your Canoness with power armor, chainsword and boltgun has the very best wargear available to the most powerful and richest organization in the setting.
But don't pretend the number I posted are in my head. They are not. They are in the official PDF from the official GW website.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Okay then, keep going feeling like your Canoness with power armor, chainsword and boltgun has the very best wargear available to the most powerful and richest organization in the setting.
But don't pretend the number I posted are in my head. They are not. They are in the official PDF from the official GW website.

The numbers aren't but the "feelings" you have about how elite or not elite something is are. Seriously, we're not going to get some kind of magical booster just to match your "feelings" of how elite you think we should be on the table.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Also, Inquisitor is a roleplay system with a different approach to the stats then when compared to the table top.

Different approach means “This characteristic which is incredibly lower on that guy in this game is going to be incredibly higher on the other game” ?
lol.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Okay then, keep going feeling like your Canoness with power armor, chainsword and boltgun has the very best wargear available to the most powerful and richest organization in the setting.

And that's why she can have a rosarius, inferno pistol and a fancy relic sword, if you like. Feeling better?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The numbers aren't but the "feelings" you have about how elite or not elite something is are.

Oh, but the comparison to the other armies are not, right ? So, if I say that every other army bar Imperial Guard has access to way better wargear for their HQ than we do for the Canoness, it's completely objective, ain't it ?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Seriously, we're not going to get some kind of magical booster just to match your "feelings" of how elite you think we should be on the table.

Yeah, I noticed that with this release, but thank you for pointing it out. Did you get what you wanted from that release ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
And that's why she can have a rosarius, inferno pistol and a fancy relic sword, if you like. Feeling better?

Can I get an artificer armor, or a jump pack, or is my relic sword AP2 ?
Please remind me, what's the equipment of my most elite unit, the Celestians ? Power armor and bolters ?

Wwbushidow wrote:

Priests are leaders whose Ld(7) is less that a normal troop(8), and they get War Hymns that they test off their Ld? Why?

No Skyfire? Why?

Eviscerator 30 points that only a Cannoness or a Priest (WS 3) can use. Why?

Also no flyer and no assault vehicle. WHY?

I can answer some of these.

I sent a 30 page breakdown and suggestions booklet to Cruddace explaining the things I perceive as problems with the WD, if he took any of it into consideration I have no idea but some of the suggestions I made are in the new codex but that doesn't mean he even bothered to read the thing I sent him. I did get a reply from him in the form of a written letter but that still doesn't mean he actually read the thing.

The Faith system in the WD was 5+ with +1 bonus for having a VSS and +1 if you had taken casualties. This means the test was always done on 4+ (3+ if you had lost a model and VSS was still alive). A 4+ is a 50% chance of success. I suggested the system be changed to a Ld test because all other armies in the game use Ld for their abilities and it's less confusing/clunky to figure out. (IG Orders, Psychic powers etc).
A 2D6 Ld test has similar chances of success compared to the old D6 system.
4+ 50%
3+ 66,7%

7 or less on 2D6 58,3%
8 or less on 2D6 72,2%
9 or less on 2D6 83,3%
10 or less on 2D6 91,7%

It is likely that the same system form AoF and Hymns would have been the same, and using the WD system it would have been on a 4+ or 3+. I asked earlier if you use the Priest Ld for the test if he is in a unit and was told you use the units. If this is correct than you will always test on a min of 8 if he is with Sisters which is a 72,2% success rate which is allot better than it would have been using the old WD system.

I think this is balanced (though I think the Hymns are ALLOT better than AoF) and allot better than the old WD D6 system.


No skyfire means they probably have some new kit they want to sell that is designed for that job, Retributors and Exorcists are probably not meant for the job. Dominions have a really good chance to destroy a filer if they use their AoF but they just need to hit.


Eviscerators is a rather obvious one yet confusing at the same time, I suggested they be dropped to 15pts as that's what they cost in the IG and GK codex. A Powerfist is 25pts so an Eviscerators Armourbane should be worth the extra 5pts right? Problem is the wielder will be S6 Ap2 Armourbane instead of S8 Ap2. This means they are better at destroying armour than powerfists even at S6. Priests on the other hand can smash, giving them a S10 Ap2 Armourbane attack.
I believe they cost 30 points because of this, because as powerfists cost 25 they have to be more expensive (didn't take sisters S3 into consideration) and that priests can use them at S10 Ap2.
This does mean a Canoness is completely useless as she brings nothing to the table a Priest can't do, she brings Stubborn and Hatred AoF, a Priest gives the unit permanent Fearless and Hatred and for allot cheaper.


No flyer is obvious, why would they release a single plastic model for this WD release? This isn't the relaunch of the Sisters so it would bring about more anger than anything if all we got as a flyer kit.
GW probably wants to do a Dark Eldar type deal with Sisters, completely redo everything over a 2 month release schedule. There are already 2 FW fliers the Sisters can use (Avenger and the Arvus Lighter).
Sure they are more expensive (and the Arvus is more of an insult than anything) but they are options available right now.
No assault vehicle just means they didn't want to make the Rhino chassis into assault vehicles, this could mean that if Sisters get a flier it will be an assault vehicle or that they dont want Sisters to have assault vehicles at all.

These are just my own speculations so feel free to ignore

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The numbers aren't but the "feelings" you have about how elite or not elite something is are.

Oh, but the comparison to the other armies are not, right ? So, if I say that every other army bar Imperial Guard has access to way better wargear for their HQ than we do for the Canoness, it's completely objective, ain't it ?

You mean the Power Fists or the Sniper rifles they can take?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Seriously, we're not going to get some kind of magical booster just to match your "feelings" of how elite you think we should be on the table.

Yeah, I noticed that with this release, but thank you for pointing it out. Did you get what you wanted from that release ?

They didn't increase the points cost on the Exorcist and they made it so Celestine isn't an auto-include without really ruining her (now I don't have to hear bitching when I take her). So yes. Yes I did.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
And that's why she can have a rosarius, inferno pistol and a fancy relic sword, if you like. Feeling better?

Can I get an artificer armor, or a jump pack, or is my relic sword AP2 ?
Please remind me, what's the equipment of my most elite unit, the Celestians ? Power armor and bolters ?

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
I did get a reply from him in the form of a written letter but that still doesn't mean he actually read the thing.

What'd it say, just out of interest?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You mean the Power Fists or the Sniper rifles they can take?

Name an army other from IG. Then let's just try to build a character from this book that will be able to utterly destroy a Canoness.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So yes. Yes I did.

Good for you !

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Not even the Marines have an AP2 Relic Blade, theirs is AP3 as well.

Yes. The only difference is that on one hand we have a character which ends up with 4 HP, T5, a 2+ and a 3++, that will do 5 S6 AP3 attacks on the charge, and on the other hand we have, well, a Canoness that will instant die from said character.
See the difference now ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Can I get an artificer armor, or a jump pack, or is my relic sword AP2 ?

No. Still better than the chainsword you suggested, though. And I actually agree with you that Canoness is still lacklustre, though it's not because availibility of the gear, but because of the price of the items. 30p for Eviscerator on S3 model is ludicrous, for example. Oh, and her Act of Faith is useless. It's still like it used to be: if you want the command squad, you can take cheap canoness with little or not upgrades, if you want wharacter that can actually kill things you take Celestine. That disparity was lessened by Celestine nerf, but it's still there.

Please remind me, what's the equipment of my most elite unit, the Celestians ? Power armor and bolters ?

Yep. Celestians do suck, but that's because they're a CC unit without CC weapons. They should have given them an access to melee armoury or at least an option to swap bolters to chainswords.

You can have a box of tissues. Not even the Marines have an AP2 Relic Blade, theirs is AP3 as well.

Except that the Relic Blade is something more common than what can be expected for the sisters, while the "Relic Sword" is an Artifact which means its very, very rare.

Now if you were to compare it to something like say...The Space Marines Chapter Relics, like say...The Teeth of Terra, which is +2S, AP3, Rampage with Strikedown for only 5 points more...

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You mean the Power Fists or the Sniper rifles they can take?

Name an army other from IG. Then let's just try to build a character from this book that will be able to utterly destroy a Canoness.

Congrats, you can build a CC monster with books that have the model support to actually let you build said CC monster. Seriously now, stop being so bitter about this, we all knew this wasn't going to fix everything and if you really did your disappointment is your fault not GW's.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So yes. Yes I did.

Good for you !

Thanks. I attribute it to "realistic expectations".

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Not even the Marines have an AP2 Relic Blade, theirs is AP3 as well.

Yes. The only difference is that on one hand we have a character which ends up with 4 HP, T5, a 2+ and a 3++, that will do 5 S6 AP3 attacks on the charge, and on the other hand we have, well, a Canoness that will instant die from said character.
See the difference now ?

I do hope that when sisters comes around, they get all sorts of blessed weaponry, saint bones (not the big types, but little finger bones in those special pouches), flaming weapons like that awesome torch-maul thing (Why was it removed! That thing was awesome)

Though I'd love to see alotta of the stuff from FFG's RPG books for them, they had some sweet relics for those of the Holy Church of the Emporer.

 Crimson wrote:
And I actually agree with you that Canoness is still lacklustre

Good for you that you noticed !

 Crimson wrote:
if you want wharacter that can actually kill things you take Celestine.

Well, things without 2+ save then. And not vehicles. And without AP2, or S6. Not much, right ?

 Crimson wrote:
Celestians do suck, but that's because they're a CC unit without CC weapons.

Where exactly in their fluff does it says they are a CC unit ? I just checked, they are only described as elite. Yes, their rules have designed them for CC in the last three dex, but that was never explicitly told in the fluff, and they never were given CC weapons, so I say just give them good wargear (if blood angel can get whole units in artificer armor, why not sisters too ?) and be done with it !

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Yes. The only difference is that on one hand we have a character which ends up with 4 HP, T5, a 2+ and a 3++, that will do 5 S6 AP3 attacks on the charge, and on the other hand we have, well, a Canoness that will instant die from said character.
See the difference now ?

Yes, and that's why AS relic blade should cost less than it does. But you are basically complaining that Space Marine characters are better in CC than a Canoness. This is hardly surprising, and if it would be other way around, GW would have completely failed to represent the fluff in the rules. Problem with Canoness is not that she's worse in CC than a SM Captain; problem is that she doesn't bring anything that other choices in the book wouldn't do better (ie. priests buff better than her and Celestine is better at CC.)

 Crimson wrote:
but that's because they're a CC unit without CC weapons.

The Command Squad gets them, at least. All five Celestians in there can get power weapons, which is pretty cool. But yeah, really wish they'd done the same or a similar thing for regular Celestians. Really wanted to field some.

 Crimson wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Yes. The only difference is that on one hand we have a character which ends up with 4 HP, T5, a 2+ and a 3++, that will do 5 S6 AP3 attacks on the charge, and on the other hand we have, well, a Canoness that will instant die from said character.
See the difference now ?

Yes, and that's why AS relic blade should cost less than it does. But you are basically complaining that Space Marine characters are better in CC than a Canoness. This is hardly surprising, and if it would be other way around, GW would have completely failed to represent the fluff in the rules. Problem with Canoness is not that she's worse in CC than a SM Captain; problem is that she doesn't bring anything that other choices in the book wouldn't do better (ie. priests buff better than her and Celestine is better at CC.)

I agree that this is the real issue with the Canoness, not what the other books have, but rather her role in the army. She's gotten -better- but she's still not really working as a real option in the codex yet.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Congrats, you can build a CC monster with books that have the model support to actually let you build said CC monster.

I can build something that will kill the canoness with the Tau book, if it pleases you.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Mantle of Ophelia.

Which prevent us from taking any other relic. So, we are not getting this rerollable 4+. I'm pretty sure that means the canoness is going to die, likely before being able to do any damage.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Also the points cost difference between the two, one of those is really expensive, the other is a Canoness.

Yep. Precisely my point. The Ecclesiarchy is supposed to have a lot of relics everywhere, and a LOT of resources and influence to get rare and powerful wargear. Seems like it's not reflected on the tabletop. But you and other really wanted to disprove that by mentioning how Sisters got… bolters ! Shock and awe !

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You're right, the sword is lackluster and I agree, but I feel that this comes from the lack of model options more than anything.

Do you mean you can model a sword with lackluster rules, but you can't manage to model a sword with powerful rules ? Interesting. I'm perfectly able to model a winged sister with a very very very powerful lance. I've already done it already. Please give me rules for a very very very powerful lance. And keep in mind, I modeled it as very very very powerful, no less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
But you are basically complaining that Space Marine characters are better in CC than a Canoness.This is hardly surprising, and if it would be other way around, GW would have completely failed to represent the fluff in the rules.

Actually, I'm complaining a Space Marine character have access to so much more, and so much better wargear than a Canoness, which is NOT representing the fluff. Also, I mentioned Space Marine, but you could do the same with Tau, Orks, Eldars, Dark Eldars, …

 ClockworkZion wrote:
At least it's not two-handed like an actual Relic Blade is.

True, so you get an extra attack. It's also master crafted. Not too shabby weapon actually. But once you give Canoness that and a rosarius she is already 110 points, so you might as well pay those 25 extra points for Celestine to get :+2 to WS and BS, +3 to initiative, +1 attack, the resurrection, 2+ save, fearless, hit & run, jump pack and a heavy flamer... Now that is 25 points well spent, I think!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Congrats, you can build a CC monster with books that have the model support to actually let you build said CC monster.

I can build something that will kill the canoness with the Tau book, if it pleases you.

Can you do it without a Crisis Suit? Doubtful.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Mantle of Ophelia.

Which prevent us from taking any other relic. So, we are not getting this rerollable 4+. I'm pretty sure that means the canoness is going to die, likely before being able to do any damage.

You're not getting a rerollbale 4+ anyways. The Cloak only works on Armor and Shield of Faith saves.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Also the points cost difference between the two, one of those is really expensive, the other is a Canoness.

Yep. Precisely my point. The Ecclesiarchy is supposed to have a lot of relics everywhere, and a LOT of resources and influence to get rare and powerful wargear. Seems like it's not reflected on the tabletop. But you and other really wanted to disprove that by mentioning how Sisters got… bolters ! Shock and awe !

Points cost is your point? Seriously? I'm not even sure what you're on at this point but it's not Earth. You brought up a more expensive option, I pointed out that he pays for all that and you say that's your point. Seriously, what.

Just because something can do something else better than we can doesn't make us bad. It doesn't even make us bad that Bolters are our mainstay weapon. For every 6 Tactical Marines someone brings to the table we've got 7 models that shoot just as well. The bolter isn't even a bad standard weapon to have. S4, AP5 means it wounds most other infantry on a 4 or less and ignores the armor of a number of other troops in the game. You're just stuck on this idea that we need super special equipment to feel more super special awesome. By that note all Marines need AP2 Bolters with Rending because of how awesome they are.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You're right, the sword is lackluster and I agree, but I feel that this comes from the lack of model options more than anything.

Do you mean you can model a sword with lackluster rules, but you can't manage to model a sword with powerful rules ? Interesting. I'm perfectly able to model a winged sister with a very very very powerful lance. I've already done it already. Please give me rules for a very very very powerful lance. And keep in mind, I modeled it as very very very powerful, no less.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Can you do it without a Crisis Suit? Doubtful.

Ain't the commander in a Crisis suit by default ?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Points cost is your point?

Not being able to take a lot of cool relics and wargear that would make my point cost and power go up is my point. It just doesn't feel to me like a Canoness can be a respected and powerful leader inside one of the most powerful organizations, if not the single most powerful, of the Imperium. Does it feel like that to you, because she can take that crappy sword ?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Just because something can do something else better than we can doesn't make us bad. It doesn't even make us bad that Bolters are our mainstay weapon.

Bolters for basic Sisters is perfectly okay. Plain bolters and plain power armor for our “elite” (and really, elite rather than close combat, they have always been “elite battle sisters” rather than “sisters that decide they want to hit things with pointy stuff rather than shoot at things”) troops, not so much.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
By that note all Marines need AP2 Bolters with Rending because of how awesome they are.

Funny you mention that, because every marine flavour has its own elite unit with special wargear. Oh, except those that have two or three of these elite units with special wargear.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I was saying the sword is pants, but I can also understand why we didn't get a lot of other weapon options all things considered.

I seriously disagree, weapon swapping isn't that hard. Even I was able to do it without any difficulty.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Can you do it without a Crisis Suit? Doubtful.

Ain't the commander in a Crisis suit by default ?

I don't know, I do know that the Crisis Suit has that a weapon option that makes it decent in a challenge though. Besides if you want to compare likes, the Canoness would be fighting an Ethereal.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Points cost is your point?

Not being able to take a lot of cool relics and wargear that would make my point cost and power go up is my point. It just doesn't feel to me like a Canoness can be a respected and powerful leader inside one of the most powerful organizations, if not the single most powerful, of the Imperium. Does it feel like that to you, because she can take that crappy sword ?

No, but I never confuse wargear with what the model is either.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Just because something can do something else better than we can doesn't make us bad. It doesn't even make us bad that Bolters are our mainstay weapon.

Bolters for basic Sisters is perfectly okay. Plain bolters and plain power armor for our “elite” (and really, elite rather than close combat, they have always been “elite battle sisters” rather than “sisters that decide they want to hit things with pointy stuff rather than shoot at things”) troops, not so much.

You do know that even Veteran Marines wear normal Power Armor too, right? I mean even the Captain comes with basic Power Armor and has to pay for Artificer Armor.

Sternguard don't even use special bolters, just special ammo. And no, we don't need that special ammo to be "elite" either.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
By that note all Marines need AP2 Bolters with Rending because of how awesome they are.

Funny you mention that, because every marine flavour has its own elite unit with special wargear. Oh, except those that have two or three of these elite units with special wargear.

Odd, Vanguard Vets don't have any unique wargear that can't be found in the rest of the book in the codex I've read. And even Terminators use standard weapons, they just have Terminator Armor to stack on it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I was saying the sword is pants, but I can also understand why we didn't get a lot of other weapon options all things considered.

I seriously disagree, weapon swapping isn't that hard. Even I was able to do it without any difficulty.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't know, I do know that the Crisis Suit has that a weapon option that makes it decent in a challenge though.

So, then you have it. It kills a Canoness. Which codex do you want to do next ?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Not being able to take a lot of cool relics and wargear that would make my point cost and power go up is my point. It just doesn't feel to me like a Canoness can be a respected and powerful leader inside one of the most powerful organizations, if not the single most powerful, of the Imperium. Does it feel like that to you, because she can take that crappy sword ?

No, but I never confuse wargear with what the model is either.

So you do too find that the current list doesn't make you feel like the Canoness and the Celestians are respected and deeply honored member of one of the most powerful organizations. Good. Then why are you arguing otherwise ? That was my point from the start !

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You do know that even Veteran Marines wear normal Power Armor too, right?

Yes, but they have bolters with special ammunitions, and everyone of them can take special weapons or combi-bolters, AND they are not from a faction for which the fluff have always emphasized on RICHES and RELICS, are they ?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I mean even the Captain comes with basic Power Armor and has to pay for Artificer Armor.

I'm not arguing for an obligation to take a lot of powerful wargear, I'm arguing for a possibility to take it. If you want to play a minor Order from a very remote place with few access to shiner wargear, it's a good and fluffy choice. If you don't want wargear because you want to outnumber your opponent, it's a good gamemplay choice. Doesn't mean that taking a lot of wargear for fluff or gameplay reason is a bad choice though.
Last time I checked, we weren't given that option.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Odd, Vanguard Vets don't have any unique wargear that can't be found in the rest of the book in the codex I've read.

I said special, not unique. You should have noticed when you read I proposed to give Celestians artificer armor and stormbolters, which are certainly not unique, but apparently you didn't.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
And even Terminators use standard weapons, they just have Terminator Armor to stack on it.

Yes, it's true that terminators and celestians really show how marines and sisters are on a equal footing when it comes to access to powerful and rare wargear .

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Right, but thanks to CHS no model means not in the book.

It's not a model ! It's a weapon ! There isn't even a farseer on jetbike model, that didn't prevent them from adding the option to the codex, which is recent enough. So how can you argue the lack of a model for a relic was the problem when the lack of a model for a jetbike option was not ?

I think now you are just trying to contradict me no matter what I say.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't know, I do know that the Crisis Suit has that a weapon option that makes it decent in a challenge though.

So, then you have it. It kills a Canoness.

It's not that easy. I assume Onager Gauntlet is the item we're talking about. It allows the commander to substitute his attacks for one S10 AP1 attack. He has to hit with his WS4, wound (the easy part) and the Canoness has to fail her rosarius save.So that's about 20% chance to kill the Canoness per CC phase. And of course if Canoness has EW cloak, the Commander has to do that tree times; she has plenty of time to pummel the filthy xeno to death.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't know, I do know that the Crisis Suit has that a weapon option that makes it decent in a challenge though.

So, then you have it. It kills a Canoness. Which codex do you want to do next ?

I said "decent" not "it automatically wins everything". And no, I'm not playing this pity party game with you.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Not being able to take a lot of cool relics and wargear that would make my point cost and power go up is my point. It just doesn't feel to me like a Canoness can be a respected and powerful leader inside one of the most powerful organizations, if not the single most powerful, of the Imperium. Does it feel like that to you, because she can take that crappy sword ?

No, but I never confuse wargear with what the model is either.

So you do too find that the current list doesn't make you feel like the Canoness and the Celestians are respected and deeply honored member of one of the most powerful organizations. Good. Then why are you arguing otherwise ? That was my point from the start !

Your "point" has been "I don't think we feel elite enough and I'm going to disregard what everyone else says to the contrary because how I feel about the models on the table overrules all fluff".

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
You do know that even Veteran Marines wear normal Power Armor too, right?

Yes, but they have bolters with special ammunitions, and everyone of them can take special weapons or combi-bolters, AND they are not from a faction for which the fluff have always emphasized on RICHES and RELICS, are they ?

You're still looking at the Special Ammo which I mentioned we didn't need. And it's TWO Sternguard can take special weapons not ALL Sternguard.

And you're whining is starting to attract dogs. You're bitching that an army which has more codex support and more model support gets stuff that feels more special. I have have no idea how that could ever happen.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I mean even the Captain comes with basic Power Armor and has to pay for Artificer Armor.

I'm not arguing for an obligation to take a lot of powerful wargear, I'm arguing for a possibility to take it. If you want to play a minor Order from a very remote place with few access to shiner wargear, it's a good and fluffy choice. If you don't want wargear because you want to outnumber your opponent, it's a good gamemplay choice. Doesn't mean that taking a lot of wargear for fluff or gameplay reason is a bad choice though.
Last time I checked, we weren't given that option.

Finally a little bit more sensible. It doesn't matter what you're arguing though as it doesn't change what we have.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Odd, Vanguard Vets don't have any unique wargear that can't be found in the rest of the book in the codex I've read.

I said special, not unique. You should have noticed when you read I proposed to give Celestians artificer armor and stormbolters, which are certainly not unique, but apparently you didn't.

Not even Salamanders, an army of Artificers, can put all their elites in Artificer Armor and they have more of it than any chapter. While I want Celestians to be good, I feel there are other ways to do it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
And even Terminators use standard weapons, they just have Terminator Armor to stack on it.

Yes, it's true that terminators and celestians really show how marines and sisters are on a equal footing when it comes to access to powerful and rare wargear .

It was more to do with the weapon options and you know it. Quite pretending to be so thick. And if you're not pretending, try to be less thick.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Right, but thanks to CHS no model means not in the book.

It's not a model ! It's a weapon ! There isn't even a farseer on jetbike model, that didn't prevent them from adding the option to the codex, which is recent enough. So how can you argue the lack of a model for a relic was the problem when the lack of a model for a jetbike option was not ?

I think now you are just trying to contradict me no matter what I say.

Well, I'd need to book to look through all the option to give you a character that will be able to kill a Canoness, but I'm pretty sure it's possible. Especially since the Tau will have plenty of time to shoot the Canoness to death, with WAY superior range.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, I'd need to book to look through all the option to give you a character that will be able to kill a Canoness, but I'm pretty sure it's possible. Especially since the Tau will have plenty of time to shoot the Canoness to death, with WAY superior range.

Which is a different problem than "could totally take her in combat and win everytime" now isn't it? Stop moving the goal posts just so you can say "I'm right".

 Troike wrote:

 MadCowCrazy wrote:
I did get a reply from him in the form of a written letter but that still doesn't mean he actually read the thing.

What'd it say, just out of interest?

Here is the full letter for those interested.

"Dear Daniel,
I just wanted to drop you a quick line to thank you for your recent letter. Unfortunately
the number of letters I receive means that I can't reply personally to all of them, but I
did want to let you know that I had received and read yours, and really appreciated
the fact that you took the time to write. Please don't hesitate to get in touch again; I read
all of the mail I receive and find it really helps to keep me in touch with the grass
roots of the hobby. Rest assured, your ideas and suggestions have been 'added to
the melting pot'.

Sincerely
Robbin Cruddace (<-His signature)

PS. The Sisters of Battle are indeed one of my favourite armies and I completely
agree with you on your comments about them excelling in the 12-18" range. In my
mind they are typified as a close-ranged shooting army, and the Acts of Faith are
what helps to give an edge in a fight (and hence make them feel unique). I also think
you're 'on the money' in regards to not giving plasma, lascannons or rocket
launchers - in my opinion an army is as much defined by those weapons they do not
have as well as those they do.

PPS. I'd also like to think you for your kind gift of chocolate, something all Games
Developers appreciate whilst writing a codex."

I put a large brick of chocolate in the envelope I sent him, more as a bribe than anything else as I figure if he eats the chocolate the least he can do is read my codex breakdown and suggestions thing.

I can't post what I sent to him though as that is Games Workshop property now, everything you send them becomes their property as if it did not then they wouldn't be able to use any suggestions sent to them without fear of copyright claims and all that... and we all know how GW feels about copyright

I'll give a small synopsis though. Basically I see SoB as an army that should excel in the 12-18" range, this is their sweet spot so they should be damned good at that range since they aren't that good in assault.
I suggested they be able to use more special and heavy weapons than any other army as they only have the holy trinity and those weapons are pretty specialised. This was written before 6E even came out some 3 years ago if I'm not mistaken. I wanted to hand the thing over to Cruddace at Games Day UK the same year the WD came out but he wasn't there.
Like I said though, there is no way of knowing if he thought any of my ideas were any good. I'd like to think so but that's more of a vanity reason than anything else. It's probably just random chance that some of the things I figured would work better than the WD made it into this codex.


All in all I think this codex is allot better than the WD but there are still some really critical problems with it, like a Canoness being a rather disappointing option compared to what a Priest brings. I actually see no point in bringing a Canoness, I'd rather take Celestine or Uriah and 5 priests. Eviscerators is another thing that really bugs me, it's basically the only option if you want to go into CC but it costs too much and only the Canoness and Priests can take it. You'll never take a Canoness as you can get 1 priest with an Eviscerator for cheaper and he can become S10 Ap2 Armourbane with it. So Celestine or Uriah are the only warlord options.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So you do too find that the current list doesn't make you feel like the Canoness and the Celestians are respected and deeply honored member of one of the most powerful organizations. Good. Then why are you arguing otherwise ? That was my point from the start !

Your "point" has been "I don't think we feel elite enough and I'm going to disregard what everyone else says to the contrary because how I feel about the models on the table overrules all fluff".

If you pretend to know what I think better than I do, I don't think it's worth going on with this discussion.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Not even Salamanders, an army of Artificers, can put all their elites in Artificer Armor and they have more of it than any chapter.

And yet Blood Angels get Artificer Armor AND jump pack AND super-powerful weapon.
But hey, Blood Angel certainly are more wealthy and more influent than the Ecclesiarchy, right ? To the point Sisters can't even get artificer armor for their most important leaders !

 ClockworkZion wrote:
While I want Celestians to be good, I feel there are other ways to do it.

There are. There are many. I never pretended it was the only solution. I still think it was a possible solution, that involved no new model, and that give the right “richer than you” vibe to the army. You are welcome to give other solutions.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It was more to do with the weapon options and you know it.

Do you mean you talked about something that had nothing to do with what I thought was my point, and I answered about what I thought was my point, but still my point was something else completely unrelated ?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Farseer on a Jetbike predates CHS, so no it wasn't "added".

Ok. Retained. Please stay again your explanation about why Kyrinov was not retained ?
You are trying to make excuses for the fact your theory don't hold in front of the facts.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I'm not the one who is being completely unreasonable here and trying to claim that Sisters don't feel elite enough just because lots of people play Marines and those too have bolters and power armor.

I'm too lazy to check out who started using that word elite, but actually what I meant is all in my stated point above : having bolters and power armor is not enough to make it looks like they have access to very rare and powerful wargear. And that's because 11 out of 14 other armies can bring units with better, more powerful wargear, and the other ones are Imperial Guard (which has a horde and/or tanks theme, certainly not an elite infantry theme), and Tyranids and Deamons because neither has wargear in the strict sense of the term.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Learn to play this book and stay hopeful that the eventual proper update with sort things out better instead of being so fixated on problems that aren't nearly as severe as you're making them.

If you said it wasn't a big problem, it would be completely different. But from the start, rather than saying it the problem wasn't big, you pretended there was no problem, and I was an idiot (sorry, just “very thick”) for thinking there was one.
I still think there is one, I still hope it's going to be fixed in next upgrade, and I still know I can't do anything about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Stop moving the goal posts just so you can say "I'm right".

Okay. Goal : find any codex other than IG (because those are only support, they can't work on heir own) which can't field an HQ orders of magnitude stronger than a Canoness. Why this goal ? Almost every time, it's mostly the wargear as it is the profile that makes the HQ orders of magnitude more powerful than a Canoness, and that does support my point that we don't feel as an army with very very good access to powerful and rare wargear because of lots of riches and influence.

@HSoO: I'm just going to start ignoring your complaints now. I don't feel like going back and forth with you over and over again because you want to mope about what we all know was only going to be a partial update. As far as these things go, it's not bad. It's no game changer, but it's not bad. And that's all I'm going to say to you on it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
If you said it wasn't a big problem, it would be completely different. But from the start, rather than saying it the problem wasn't big, you pretended there was no problem, and I was an idiot (sorry, just “very thick”) for thinking there was one.
I still think there is one, I still hope it's going to be fixed in next upgrade, and I still know I can't do anything about it.

See that ? Never said the problem was new (it's been there since I started, at the release of C:WH, though maybe to a lesser degree), never said I ever expected it to be fixed with this upgrade, I just said it's still a problem, and provide some idea on how to fix it. You just went “Salamander can't have artificer armor units so we shouldn't have access to them either”, which seems very masochist to me.

if the army's captain can be better geared up then the army's named hero, then there is something wrong

What are you talking about, Shadowsfm ?

i got the impression you wanted the canoness to be better then st. celestine

I don't think anyone wants that - but some other upgrades / options would have made it a choice between the two - like how you consider the many HQ options for a Space Marine army each on their own merrits

shadowsfm wrote:
i got the impression you wanted the canoness to be better then st. celestine

I wouldn't mind if it was the case, as it's already been the case in C:WH if I remember. Special character are not supposed to be necessarily more powerful than generic ones, they are supposed to bring flavor and personality. I'm pretty sure there are several codex right now where it's possible to create a generic character stronger than many special character, and I have no problem with that. I don't especially want the Canoness to be better than Celestine though. I just would like the Canoness to have access to a lot of powerful, exotic, expensive wargear that makes her powerful, and I would like for Celestine to keep what gives her flavour : her capacity to come back from the dead, and to some lesser extent to shoot flames out of her sword. Apart from that, I don't really care which one is more powerful.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

shadowsfm wrote:
i got the impression you wanted the canoness to be better then st. celestine

I wouldn't mind if it was the case, as it's already been the case in C:WH if I remember. Special character are not supposed to be necessarily more powerful than generic ones, they are supposed to bring flavor and personality. I'm pretty sure there are several codex right now where it's possible to create a generic character stronger than many special character, and I have no problem with that. I don't especially want the Canoness to be better than Celestine though. I just would like the Canoness to have access to a lot of powerful, exotic, expensive wargear that makes her powerful, and I would like for Celestine to keep what gives her flavour : her capacity to come back from the dead, and to some lesser extent to shoot flames out of her sword. Apart from that, I don't really care which one is more powerful.

Special Characters should be about bringing "Unique" things to the army, rather then better, beatstick Special Characters are boring unless they are explicitly DESIGNED to be in that sort of manner, Abbadon for example.

Sure Typhus is probably one of the most recognizable Nurgle Heralds, but out there there is still plenty of other Nurgle Blessed Champions who have done great things and can kick as much as he could, but Typhus is special because he's a Chaos Lord Sorcerer (When they removed them for some arbitrary reason, They are not space marine captains! *grumble grumble*) with the Destroyer hive inside of him, along with zombies. Which makes him more unique.

So, basically we totally agree on what special character should be .

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, basically we totally agree on what special character should be .

Yeah was expanding that point out a bit.

shadowsfm wrote:
i got the impression you wanted the canoness to be better then st. celestine

I dont think there is much worry on the canoness being better than.. well anything :p

The canoness is arguably better in a mech list, once you include the command squad.

So WTF of the day goes to Combi-Plasma being on the Ranged Weapons list but not being restricted to only Priests. So who wants a command Squad of Combi-Plasmas?

We could always take Combi-plasma...

 Still Standing wrote:
We could always take Combi-plasma...

Sorry, I never noticed because I was running Combi-Melta or Combi-Flamers.

Well that just seems weird either way.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So who wants a command Squad of Combi-Plasmas?

Ohohoho, yes.

Six combi-plasmas, inside of a melta Immolator. What fun.

Do BSS or dominions have access to combi plas or plas?

Only their Superiors, and they can only take combi plasmas or plasma pistols.

Warmahordes has a term called Skornergy meaning anti synergy because one of their factions Skorne has a ton of anti synergy. The anti synergy is so bad every other faction calls anti synergy skornergy.

AS isn't that bad, but it does have a bit going. Anything with a 2+ would unstopable with a priest In cc.. PE BSS would be a nightmare with 2plas and combi plas. Dominion alpha strike with 10 ignore cover plasma shots would also be ugly

Arco flags and repentia with a priest can turn cc into a slaughterhouse, but are very fragile and have no access to an assault vehicle.

Over all I think AS is a well written book rules wise. There is a lot of good stuff that just needs to be used right And overcome anti synergy..

Ok, I don't particularly want to get involved in this argument, but a couple of things are really bugging the fluff bunny inside of me.

1. Blood Angels do not have access to artificer armour for anything more than their Sanguinary Guard. Which are the bodyguards of their Chapter Master and originally the personal bodyguard of their Primarch. So they can't equip loads of troops with it- they have 30. It's identical to normal SM, who can only equip the chapter master bodyguard with artificer armour.

2. Yes, the ecclesiarchy is powerful, but it still has nothing on the Inquisition, who basically has the power to do pretty much want they want in a military sense, so can request what they like equipment wise (and artificer armour is STILL super rare for them- only 2 special characters have it and normal inquisitors can't purchase it). The SM are also more powerful in terms of requisitioning military resources than the ecclesiarchy, because they have a lot of imperial decrees in their favour, such as the one restricting land raiders to only SM use, and they are effectivel the grandkids of the emperor. They are his finest troops, and therfore get the best military equipment, and that is the way it should be. and STILL they are lucky to have 30 suits of working artificer armour in a first founding chapter who probably still have suits from the time artificer armour was given out to squad sergeants!

The ecclesiarchy is rich, but there is only so much money can buy, and sisters still get far more than IG, even elite IG units like storm troopers. I agree they should have more exciting relics than they do have, but they shouldn't start getting whole units equipped with artificer armour! Canonesses should maybe, but certainly not Celestians. As for more ranged punch- storm bolters is fairly appropiate, but starting to hand out stuff which is super rare just seems off fluffwise.

Haighus wrote:
The ecclesiarchy is rich, but there is only so much money can buy, and sisters still get far more than IG, even elite IG units like storm troopers. I agree they should have more exciting relics than they do have, but they shouldn't start getting whole units equipped with artificer armour! Canonesses should maybe, but certainly not Celestians. As for more ranged punch- storm bolters is fairly appropiate, but starting to hand out stuff which is super rare just seems off fluffwise.

This. The Marine Chapters have suits of Terminator Armour and Artificier Armour because they have their own Techmarines making and maintaining them. It doesn't matter how much money the Ecclesiarchy can put up, they're not getting any armour from the Astartes, and while there certainly is some armour coming in from the AdMech it's not enough to equip entire units of Sisters with it, especially not when Inquisitors compete for the same source of Artificier Armour. Considering Artificier Armour is hand-made and every suit unique it's not that strange that the Sisters don't have that many suits. They take ages to make, after all.

Haighus wrote:
The SM are also more powerful in terms of requisitioning military resources than the ecclesiarchy, because they have a lot of imperial decrees in their favour, such as the one restricting land raiders to only SM use, and they are effectivel the grandkids of the emperor. They are his finest troops, and therfore get the best military equipment, and that is the way it should be

Actually, codex fluff has the SoB as well equipped as a Marine Chapter. See this quote from the WH codex:

"The Sisters of Battle are exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter."

If we're going off of that, we could easily assume that the SoB would have a similar number of Artificier Armour, were their future codexes to include it.

Well 30 suits spread over the whole of the SoB still wouldn't be enough to give them out to units

it's only 5 each for the major orders (unless one of the minor orders was founded by a wearer of a suit who took it with her)

Haighus wrote:
1. Blood Angels do not have access to artificer armour for anything more than their Sanguinary Guard. Which are the bodyguards of their Chapter Master and originally the personal bodyguard of their Primarch. So they can't equip loads of troops with it- they have 30. It's identical to normal SM, who can only equip the chapter master bodyguard with artificer armour.

Compare to Sisters where you can equip a grand total of ZERO model with artificer armor. lol.

Haighus wrote:
2. Yes, the ecclesiarchy is powerful, but it still has nothing on the Inquisition

Yes it does. It has one or two more representatives among the High Lord of Terra, for starter. Then, it has actual, lasting control and influence over many worlds. The Inquisitors just wander around investigating and solving problems. They don't rule stuff.
The Inquisition investigate and solve very specific problems, while the Ecclesiarchy actually rules a lot of world, and is very influential to the rulers of many many many more worlds. The Inquisition do on-purpose troops and wargear requisition, the Ecclesiarchy regularly collect tithes from billions of world. Not the same income. And not geared toward the same goals.
Inquisitors are independent super special agent, they have a bunch of different ways of dealing with problems but their role is not to be a military leader. A very in-your-face style Inquisitor which doesn't care about bringing attention to himself will just wear a terminator armor, because it's better than an artificer armor, but most Inquisitor will rely for protection on things that draw way less attention, like different flavours of power-field. Because running around in power armor is not going to be unnoticed.

Haighus wrote:
The SM are also more powerful in terms of requisitioning military resources than the ecclesiarchy, because they have a lot of imperial decrees in their favour, such as the one restricting land raiders to only SM use, and they are effectivel the grandkids of the emperor.

So, you have one. The Sisters have a similar one for exclusivity on the immolator. One each. As for being the grand-kids of the Emperor, shall I remember you about all the decree and laws and tithes they have to pay and obey because nobody trust them anymore ?
I'm sorry, I forgot to read all the parts in the fluff that emphasize how the marines are so rich and so influential. I also forgot the part where if an Order grow too big, they will be declared excomunicate traitoris and hunted for the rest of their lives.

Haighus wrote:
I agree they should have more exciting relics than they do have, but they shouldn't start getting whole units equipped with artificer armour!

Not only should they, but they should also get new high-tech grail-reliquaries-like tanks only made possible by the use of the rarest, most valued artifacts from the Dark Age of Technology, along with tons of other stuff to remind you of what they are : the most elite troop created by a megalomaniac madman without the slightest hint of sanity that happened to also have been the single most powerful individual of all of the Imperium's history apart from the Emperor. If that's not a pedigree good enough to get a unit in artificer armor, none is.

I'm just going to copy-paste something I just wrote on G+ about what is the defining identity of the Sisters against, for instance, the Black Templar, as they seem similar at first glance :
“Sisters are the “religious nutjob” faction. I bet you knew that, and will tell me how space marines are also religious extremists and black templars and yadda yadda yadda. But look at your black templar. What does he look like ? A colored marine, with maybe a bit more parchment here and there. Does his armor look like it's been designed by some half-mad lunatic ? No. It looks like it was first designed as a space marine (i.e. super-boring super-soldier mary sue) armor, with functionality being the focal point, and then superficially made “religious-like” by gluing a few bitz on top of it. The space marine armor have a very streamlined, industrially mass-produced look. And it's the same with their tanks. They look like they have been designed for efficiency first, and then the templars added a bunch of parchment over it.
The sisters embody and turn up to eleven the baroque excess of the Catholic church. That's why they have what is one of the best armor of the Imperium, but it still looks like a corset, and include fabric loincloth and sleeves. That's why their tanks include a tank-mounted organ that shoots missiles. That's why they turn people into killing machine that are kept into a total apathy (during which they will be more likely to die of starvation into their own feces than just eat the food that is in front of them) until the right word is uttered, at which point their pacifying helmet will stop, all kind of unsafe, highly dangerous combat drugs are put into their body, and they will start looking for enemies to kill until either they hear the pacifying word, or they die, possibly of exhaustion. And we are talking about something that can't even do something as simple as opening a door, because it has neither the hands (replaced by offensive bionics) nor the wits required to do so.
Basically, the Sisters are all about extreme lot of wealth, and equally extreme lack of sanity. They are even explicitly stated, in-universe, as the creation of the most powerful man ever in the Imperium, which happened to be a complete madman incapable to even understand what was happening when Alicia Dominica declared she was going to kill him.”
Can't keep that identity while at the same time being beggars compared to, well, almost all the army in the game.

 Troike wrote:

Haighus wrote:
The SM are also more powerful in terms of requisitioning military resources than the ecclesiarchy, because they have a lot of imperial decrees in their favour, such as the one restricting land raiders to only SM use, and they are effectivel the grandkids of the emperor. They are his finest troops, and therfore get the best military equipment, and that is the way it should be

Actually, codex fluff has the SoB as well equipped as a Marine Chapter. See this quote from the WH codex:

"The Sisters of Battle are exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter."

If we're going off of that, we could easily assume that the SoB would have a similar number of Artificier Armour, were their future codexes to include it.

Well naturally. That's why Sisters have Terminator armor right?

I think we're confusing "equal" with "identical" here.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
and while there certainly is some armour coming in from the AdMech it's not enough to equip entire units of Sisters with it

If the Adeptus Sororitas get one artificer armor from each world that pay tithes to them every hundred years, then that's billions of artificer armors. I think that's enough to equip a whole unit of Sisters .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I think we're confusing "equal" with "identical" here.

I think you are confusing “equal” with “I don't want sisters to have any good wargear and I'm going out of my way to prove to everyone why they shouldn't get anything better than a power armor and a bolter”. But maybe that's just me.

As this is now out and in the wild, we'll close this thread.

Feel free to discuss issues further in the appropriate 40k board.