For those with the codex (I am going without it for a bit, buying the next 6 codex's in bulk with a "next purchase" discount card). The max unit size for a Bladeguard Veteran squad is 3, right? Also, what is the max unit size of the ATV?
cuda1179 wrote: For those with the codex (I am going without it for a bit, buying the next 6 codex's in bulk with a "next purchase" discount card). The max unit size for a Bladeguard Veteran squad is 3, right? Also, what is the max unit size of the ATV?
Max unit size of BGV is actually 6 the Invader ATV (I'm just gonna shorter it to iATV as I try to make that a thing) is 3
Now we have a window to look at release cadence, I think we can safely say that the marine kits will be spread over the course of the supplements now, so a smattering of 2-4 marine kits every month.
Eh, I'm just happy for the DA players who actually get to fiddle with their signature wings instead of having to play a greenwing castle hugging Azrael to have a chance of winning.
Jidmah wrote: Eh, I'm just happy for the DA players who actually get to fiddle with their signature wings instead of having to play a greenwing castle hugging Azrael to have a chance of winning.
Aye.. This.
The overtuning atm can be easily lowered back down but the less marine castles the better.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think anyone bandwagoning with Dark Angels thanks to their get-you-by Index is going to be in for a rude shock come their actual supplement.
I think anybody expecting marines to get nerfed are in for rude shock. Main codex already wasn't actually nerf but rather improvement. Just what is best changed but overall power curve went UP.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think anyone bandwagoning with Dark Angels thanks to their get-you-by Index is going to be in for a rude shock come their actual supplement.
I think anybody expecting marines to get nerfed are in for rude shock. Main codex already wasn't actually nerf but rather improvement. Just what is best changed but overall power curve went UP.
Yeah, Dark Angels can use the Deathwing Deepstrike off the ATVs and/or the Primaris Biker Chaplain.
Normally, I'd assume the index rules would be identical to the printed supplement, but GW did change things like the Judiciar, Eradicators, etc.. (and not just unit size, also Necron stuff) between Indomitus and the Marines Codex (which surely was already printed by the time Indomitus hit the shelves), so I wouldn't be surprised to see things change from Index to Codex supplement again (and possibly an FAQ to make the ATV ineligible for the Apothecary / possibly a vehicle).
Does anyone have any guesses(or rumor sources with info) about what the xenos codex coming in January might be? Is there any info hinting at what the other January release will be?
There is some art shown in the little preview picture, but I don't know if that is really any indication of the codex subject matter or not.
It’s generic Xenos art from the rulebook. I’d hope Orks seeing as Ghaz is still not available by himself and Ragnar may be released alongside the Wolves Codex.
The other “redacted” book for that month shows Dark Angel Chapter iconography so I really hope my Angels aren’t waiting too long for their supplement.
Nostromodamus wrote: It’s generic Xenos art from the rulebook. I’d hope Orks seeing as Ghaz is still not available by himself and Ragnar may be released alongside the Wolves Codex.
The other “redacted” book for that month shows Dark Angel Chapter iconography so I really hope my Angels aren’t waiting too long for their supplement.
They already confirmed dark angels for January don't worry.
It could be any Xenos race except Necrons. There's also rumour that it could be a "new" Xenos race or an expansion of a theme (eg Tau xenos allied forces). That said its really impossible to tell right now, its just a generic Xenos symbol that's only been seen before in the current big rule book.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think anyone bandwagoning with Dark Angels thanks to their get-you-by Index is going to be in for a rude shock come their actual supplement.
I think anybody expecting marines to get nerfed are in for rude shock. Main codex already wasn't actually nerf but rather improvement. Just what is best changed but overall power curve went UP.
Not convinced, whats the reasoning?
We are talking about marines aka gw cashcow. People thought 9e codex would nerf them. Instead power went up. Who still thinks gw now starts putting nerfs to next marine books?
Gw has went all speed full with marine favouritism. You need to deliberately turn blind eye pretty hard to miss it.
But sure. Keep on telling yourself marine nerfs incoming. People said same thing about 9e core rules. When that didn'' pan out it was "codex will fix it". Well guess gw thought marines underperformed since codex upped power curve...
Most codex/battletomes for a new edition are not nerfed but powered up because they now work with new mechanics which makes them more powerful then previous edition versions. That's almost universal if you compare previous to current codex.
What varies is if the codex is broken or balanced within the new edition rather than comparing back and forward.
Also I'd note that whilst marines are a cash-cow for GW; GW's balancing is almost at random. Sometimes Marines are on top sometimes they are not. Lots of other armies have been brokenly powerful at various stages despite not being "GWs Cash Cow". If anything GW's somewhat random balancing means that they've never really had a clear pattern in what becomes overpowered.
Marines were mid to low tier most of 7th until Battle Company formations and the same with 6th, with their only strong play being Grav cents with Loth/Tigurius. The battle company still didn’t make marines the top of the pile even with free razorbacks for everyone - that one went for our pointy eared and hatted army.
In Fifth they were overshadowed by Crons, GK, and Guard, With only BA razorspam lists being close.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think anyone bandwagoning with Dark Angels thanks to their get-you-by Index is going to be in for a rude shock come their actual supplement.
I think anybody expecting marines to get nerfed are in for rude shock. Main codex already wasn't actually nerf but rather improvement. Just what is best changed but overall power curve went UP.
Not convinced, whats the reasoning?
We are talking about marines aka gw cashcow. People thought 9e codex would nerf them. Instead power went up. Who still thinks gw now starts putting nerfs to next marine books?
Gw has went all speed full with marine favouritism. You need to deliberately turn blind eye pretty hard to miss it.
But sure. Keep on telling yourself marine nerfs incoming. People said same thing about 9e core rules. When that didn'' pan out it was "codex will fix it". Well guess gw thought marines underperformed since codex upped power curve...
That's not what I asked, I'm wanting to know how you think the new book is better than the last one please. To me it seems the same or maybe sightly lower overall.
Does GW consider Demons to be a "xenos" faction or are they chaos? Im wondering if they would make that differentiation at a high level when talking about what codexes are next.
Edit: Answered my own question by looking at the GW website
Crazyterran wrote: Marines were mid to low tier most of 7th until Battle Company formations and the same with 6th, with their only strong play being Grav cents with Loth/Tigurius. The battle company still didn’t make marines the top of the pile even with free razorbacks for everyone - that one went for our pointy eared and hatted army.
In Fifth they were overshadowed by Crons, GK, and Guard, With only BA razorspam lists being close.
Marines being #1 is relatively new in GW land.
Space Wolves were a top army in 5th, but yeah, Codex Vanilla marines have rarely been that strong through 40k lifetime.
Crazyterran wrote: Marines were mid to low tier most of 7th until Battle Company formations and the same with 6th, with their only strong play being Grav cents with Loth/Tigurius. The battle company still didn’t make marines the top of the pile even with free razorbacks for everyone - that one went for our pointy eared and hatted army.
In Fifth they were overshadowed by Crons, GK, and Guard, With only BA razorspam lists being close.
Marines being #1 is relatively new in GW land.
Space Wolves were a top army in 5th, but yeah, Codex Vanilla marines have rarely been that strong through 40k lifetime.
To the point that people were using their CSM as Counts As Space Wolves.
cuda1179 wrote: So, Suppressors (the jumppack autocannon primaris guys) are still stuck at squads of 3, right?
Yes - as the only way to get them is the Vanguard Start Collecting! box. It'll change when (if!) the multi-part box comes out (and there was fluff in the last codex about a las(?) variant).
cuda1179 wrote: So, Suppressors (the jumppack autocannon primaris guys) are still stuck at squads of 3, right?
Yep. Their points entry is rather odd as well.
Most units are 'X pts/model.' Suppressors are '100 pts' flat, which generally is how single entity units are written (characters and vehicles). Even other squads with a fixed unit size (Outriders and Eliminators) are X pts/model.
Its a weird formatting quirk, and it makes me wonder if they had planned a full kit at some point, but it got bumped late in the process, and they changed the points entry in a hurry and didn't normalize it.
cuda1179 wrote: So, Suppressors (the jumppack autocannon primaris guys) are still stuck at squads of 3, right?
Yes - as the only way to get them is the Vanguard Start Collecting! box. It'll change when (if!) the multi-part box comes out (and there was fluff in the last codex about a las(?) variant).
Ugg... I liked the idea of suppressors a lot. I even converted 6 of them with hopes they would compliment my Inceptor squad. Being stuck at 3 guys means they don't have enough shots to either cripple a tank or a blob squad.
GW may have lost the plot, the Hammerstrike Turret is AUD $98. For context, that is the same price as an Intercessor Squad here. I was expecting to pay double that at least!
diepotato47 wrote: GW may have lost the plot, the Hammerstrike Turret is AUD $98. For context, that is the same price as an Intercessor Squad here. I was expecting to pay double that at least!
cuda1179 wrote: So, Suppressors (the jumppack autocannon primaris guys) are still stuck at squads of 3, right?
Yes - as the only way to get them is the Vanguard Start Collecting! box. It'll change when (if!) the multi-part box comes out (and there was fluff in the last codex about a las(?) variant).
Ugg... I liked the idea of suppressors a lot. I even converted 6 of them with hopes they would compliment my Inceptor squad. Being stuck at 3 guys means they don't have enough shots to either cripple a tank or a blob squad.
They only have to hit in order to prevent overwatch now. So they can still cripple a unit, sort of. They are more for keeping Tau at bay.
Still no sign of the Chaplain Biker or Hexmark either.
I’m beginning to legitimately believe that the ship carrying them must have shed part of its load in a storm or something. So somewhere out there is a whole stack of free monoliths floating around on the pacific currents…
Still no sign of the Chaplain Biker or Hexmark either.
I’m beginning to legitimately believe that the ship carrying them must have shed part of its load in a storm or something. So somewhere out there is a whole stack of free monoliths floating around on the pacific currents…
*quickly pays heaps of money for scuba gear to get free monoliths*
*gets eaten by sharks*
*dies smiling while hugging free monoliths*
Still no sign of the Chaplain Biker or Hexmark either.
I’m beginning to legitimately believe that the ship carrying them must have shed part of its load in a storm or something. So somewhere out there is a whole stack of free monoliths floating around on the pacific currents…
Or they've all floated to the bottom, and now Cthulhu is constructing his own Necron army in R'lyeh. Seems apt.....
They probably ended up in the same place as all the Australia bound Doctor Stranges for the Marvel game. I’ve heard they’re missing some of their recent releases as well.
Tavis75 wrote: Is it just me, or is the Monolith in the 360 degree view on the GW site a bit droopy, hope that's just poor assembly rather than a common fault!
It does look a bit on the wonk, then again the angle of the shot is not helping either. At least it is not on a flying base like The Tesseract Vault that always looks a bit droopy as well. With the low centre of gravity on the monolith it should not be too big an issue.
GW display models are sometimes not fully assembled with glue and often have parts held on by bluetack. You can often see it with weapon arms around the shoulders on some models (and one set of eldar wraiths got released without the guns on the card board cover of their box one time).
I can't see a reason for it to be droopy, unlike the Obilisk, it doesn't look like there's any big segments held at distance on tiny plastic joins. It should be pretty solid. From what I can see the droop is the whole model being at a tiny bit of an angle to the base; which looking at the thickness of the custom base underneath it should just be assembly rather than an actual model flaw.
Still no sign of the Chaplain Biker or Hexmark either.
I’m beginning to legitimately believe that the ship carrying them must have shed part of its load in a storm or something. So somewhere out there is a whole stack of free monoliths floating around on the pacific currents…
assuming the shipment was lost around africa those mololiths should show up around new gueini, antartica or.. africa..
Still no sign of the Chaplain Biker or Hexmark either.
I’m beginning to legitimately believe that the ship carrying them must have shed part of its load in a storm or something. So somewhere out there is a whole stack of free monoliths floating around on the pacific currents…
Or they've all floated to the bottom, and now Cthulhu is constructing his own Necron army in R'lyeh. Seems apt.....
I guess that depends on whether the container burst or not. The boxes are shipped shrink-wrapped so they should float on their own and only degrade slowly. Of course if the steel container stayed closed and the interior filled with water then they’re on the bottom by now.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Or they've all floated to the bottom, and now Cthulhu is constructing his own Necron army in R'lyeh. Seems apt.....
It's Necrons, though. It's gonna take at LEAST 50,000 years for them to awaken again. No need to panic.
Cthulhu is a lazy bugger anyway. He probably has a backlog dating back to the dawn of time. Now Nyarlothotep, he's the one you need to be worried about
Still no sign of the Chaplain Biker or Hexmark either.
I’m beginning to legitimately believe that the ship carrying them must have shed part of its load in a storm or something. So somewhere out there is a whole stack of free monoliths floating around on the pacific currents…
So they're with the first shipment of Eldar Falcons from the 90's?
I feel the "it fell off the boat" joke works better when that isn't a thing that's legitimately happened to GW before...
Voss wrote: Ok then. I was hoping they'd finish out the necron release this month. But I guess the crypteks and flayed ones will wait until... later.
But it better not wait until the kill team release next year!
The dumb preview video is making me wonder...
The pile of SM kits can be parceled out with the various supplements.
And people were telling me there's no way it's not multi-wave release and that it will be one Sisters had 3 waves with 2 months between wave 2 and 3 and they had similar # of kits. And that was with army that was in bigger need of all kits fast(being new army with no existing kits to bolster forces).
I can easily see some being left to next year for necrons.
Voss wrote: Ok then. I was hoping they'd finish out the necron release this month. But I guess the crypteks and flayed ones will wait until... later.
But it better not wait until the kill team release next year!
The dumb preview video is making me wonder...
The pile of SM kits can be parceled out with the various supplements.
The Marine release being spread over 3+ months is absurd.
A bit. I was thinking more along the lines of with SW and DW next month. They front-loaded the necrons and the marine ETB kits, and with 6 multipart kits and a character still to come*, it would make sense to release some along with the first two supplements.
*(assault ints, heavy ints, eradicators, bladeguard, tanks, skimmers plus the heavy rifle gravis captain) and also probably ETB outrider bikes in a separate box, like the skorpekhs. Jamming all that into October would have been difficult- its at least two weeks of releases yet. With supplements at least keeps them on point.
But stopping just short of finishing the necron range is dumb. 2 characters and what's probably a 5-model box of flayed ones. Just do it. Finish the range.
Voss wrote: Ok then. I was hoping they'd finish out the necron release this month. But I guess the crypteks and flayed ones will wait until... later.
But it better not wait until the kill team release next year!
The dumb preview video is making me wonder...
The pile of SM kits can be parceled out with the various supplements.
The Marine release being spread over 3+ months is absurd.
You must be new to 40k...
this is a relatively nerw development, one that first popped up with codex 8.5 and no one was partiucularly happy with it eaither. Casval isd 100% right that the result last time was to heighten the perception of GW releasing nothing but Marines
Nothing has said GW has stopped - they just did 3 weeks of solid necron releases. A break is not bad and even if you had an extensive necron force before there's ample new things to pick up and fill the time.
Yes I want it all done and out too, but at the same time I'm happy for other lines to get their share in the light as well.
Heck we've still got one more pre-order window for October to go so that could easily be more Necron/Marine content, esp when you consider that most of what we know coming out now is AoS stuff that's set for November and likely just 1 week of November (Morathi book; new duel army pack).
Voss wrote: Ok then. I was hoping they'd finish out the necron release this month. But I guess the crypteks and flayed ones will wait until... later.
But it better not wait until the kill team release next year!
The dumb preview video is making me wonder...
The pile of SM kits can be parceled out with the various supplements.
The Marine release being spread over 3+ months is absurd.
You must be new to 40k...
this is a relatively nerw development, one that first popped up with codex 8.5 and no one was partiucularly happy with it eaither. Casval isd 100% right that the result last time was to heighten the perception of GW releasing nothing but Marines
From Rogue Trader on to 5th edition or so releases for an army were quite spread out, much more than anything in the last decade. There was also the real possibility that you would have models that were never released.
Voss wrote: Ok then. I was hoping they'd finish out the necron release this month. But I guess the crypteks and flayed ones will wait until... later.
But it better not wait until the kill team release next year!
The dumb preview video is making me wonder...
The pile of SM kits can be parceled out with the various supplements.
The Marine release being spread over 3+ months is absurd.
You must be new to 40k...
this is a relatively nerw development, one that first popped up with codex 8.5 and no one was partiucularly happy with it eaither. Casval isd 100% right that the result last time was to heighten the perception of GW releasing nothing but Marines
From Rogue Trader on to 5th edition or so releases for an army were quite spread out, much more than anything in the last decade. There was also the real possibility that you would have models that were never released.
Yeah before Chapterhouse GW kept adding things that never got models; both full models and things like weapon upgrades that weren't in kits. I recall Tyranids getting quite a few really cool unique model rule sets that never got a model. Every release event you'd be crossing your fingers and you'd get disappointed. You'd get a new codex and there was the model again and yet still no model appeared. For those happy to convert it was fine; but for those who were waiting/couldn't or didn't want too it was an annoying time. Whilst Chapterhouse lost us those concepts unless they got reinvented or added as models; I think it also cleaned house and stopped GW going down the path of "rules no models". Which to be fair was something almost only they were doing (most other companies have models for their rules unless they hit hard times and can't keep up production). GW was abnormal in having all the resources, but still adding things as concepts only.
Much as some dislike it, I welcome "no models no rules" as a standard practice. Plus GW has already shown that they are willing to add new model rules outside of the Codex for things released between codex editions.
Voss wrote: Ok then. I was hoping they'd finish out the necron release this month. But I guess the crypteks and flayed ones will wait until... later.
But it better not wait until the kill team release next year!
The dumb preview video is making me wonder...
The pile of SM kits can be parceled out with the various supplements.
The Marine release being spread over 3+ months is absurd.
You must be new to 40k...
this is a relatively nerw development, one that first popped up with codex 8.5 and no one was partiucularly happy with it eaither. Casval isd 100% right that the result last time was to heighten the perception of GW releasing nothing but Marines
You say perception.. I say reality lol Theres been a constant release of marines since i started playing again in 8th 2 years ago. Like every month has at least 1 marine thing.
Voss wrote: Ok then. I was hoping they'd finish out the necron release this month. But I guess the crypteks and flayed ones will wait until... later.
But it better not wait until the kill team release next year!
The dumb preview video is making me wonder...
The pile of SM kits can be parceled out with the various supplements.
The Marine release being spread over 3+ months is absurd.
You must be new to 40k...
this is a relatively nerw development, one that first popped up with codex 8.5 and no one was partiucularly happy with it eaither. Casval isd 100% right that the result last time was to heighten the perception of GW releasing nothing but Marines
From Rogue Trader on to 5th edition or so releases for an army were quite spread out, much more than anything in the last decade. There was also the real possibility that you would have models that were never released.
Yeah before Chapterhouse GW kept adding things that never got models; both full models and things like weapon upgrades that weren't in kits. I recall Tyranids getting quite a few really cool unique model rule sets that never got a model. Every release event you'd be crossing your fingers and you'd get disappointed. You'd get a new codex and there was the model again and yet still no model appeared. For those happy to convert it was fine; but for those who were waiting/couldn't or didn't want too it was an annoying time. Whilst Chapterhouse lost us those concepts unless they got reinvented or added as models; I think it also cleaned house and stopped GW going down the path of "rules no models". Which to be fair was something almost only they were doing (most other companies have models for their rules unless they hit hard times and can't keep up production). GW was abnormal in having all the resources, but still adding things as concepts only.
Much as some dislike it, I welcome "no models no rules" as a standard practice. Plus GW has already shown that they are willing to add new model rules outside of the Codex for things released between codex editions.
That really stifles any kind of creative rules imo. We now have relics and traits which do exactly the same thing.. do why cant genestealers take sxything talons anymore?
Even most die hard try hards will turn blind eye on Wysiwyg if its something that makes sense and is minor thing.
Voss wrote: Ok then. I was hoping they'd finish out the necron release this month. But I guess the crypteks and flayed ones will wait until... later.
But it better not wait until the kill team release next year!
The dumb preview video is making me wonder...
The pile of SM kits can be parceled out with the various supplements.
The Marine release being spread over 3+ months is absurd.
You must be new to 40k...
this is a relatively nerw development, one that first popped up with codex 8.5 and no one was partiucularly happy with it eaither. Casval isd 100% right that the result last time was to heighten the perception of GW releasing nothing but Marines
You say perception.. I say reality lol Theres been a constant release of marines since i started playing again in 8th 2 years ago. Like every month has at least 1 marine thing.
not true at all. Primaris Marines came out with the start of 8th edition, dark Imperium hit in June 2017 with codex space marines and the first primaris kits out in July. Death Guard came out in september, followed by blood angels and dark angels in december, each getting a single primaris Leuitenant. that was the last marine release until augest 2018 saw tooth and claw give us the space wolves Leuintenat. we didn't see any other marine releases until 2019 when shadowspear hit.
So no we have not been getting "marine releases every month" I won't lie we've gotten a LOT of them, a lot are, as has been noted, big releases stretched out, but try and refrain from the hyperbole.
Overread wrote: Much as some dislike it, I welcome "no models no rules" as a standard practice. Plus GW has already shown that they are willing to add new model rules outside of the Codex for things released between codex editions.
The problem is GW have taken that concept to an absurd degree, changing the very way their models are designed (lack of options) and writing wargear sections in Codices that are just insane, from the smallest example (a Necron Overlord cannot have a Hyperphase Glaive and a Res Orb, as the model with the Res Orb has a Warscythe), to the utterly bonkers (the fact that there is a Codex entry entitled "Captain with Master-Crafted Heavy Bolt Rifle").
I've said it before: GW didn't lose the CHS case, we did.
Lack of options isn't really anything to do with "no models no rules" that's a design ethos choice that's totally separate. GW can give models options in the box or not; just as we've seen with mono-option models we've also seen kits like Necromunda with a vast array of options and optional weapon packs.
The two are not directly related save in the initial period where we lots options because they weren't weapons in the box. Though many would argue they didn't lose much as unless you converted you didn't have those weapons to model anyway.
I agree not everything after Chapterhouse was good - we got random name changes and other things that weren't great for us; but I'd say at its core no-model-no-rules was a net gain for us. If GW chooses to abandon optional parts then that's on them; but I tihnk that's more "easy build" pushing in a bit
(even though I find easy build a bit silly as a concept since most GW models are darn easy builds anyway and some of the easy builds are harder to build )
Overread wrote: Lack of options isn't really anything to do with "no models no rules" that's a design ethos choice that's totally separate.
I completely reject that on every level. One only has to look at the new Outrider kit to see how no model/no rule affects options. Their aim is to stifle third parties. That's why Marines went from being designed likethis, to being designed likethis. How we went from this, to this or this. Why rules like this existed, and why entries like this persist. And there are far more examples in the two latest Codices.
They design their kits to be as unfriendly to third parties as possible. They limit options within kits so that there's no reason to go elsewhere for parts. They even limit the way kits go together.
The two are directly related. They are inherent to one another. Intrinsic.
Not really, "No models no rules" is just a policy to not have rules in the book that GW doesn't make a model for. They can make a billion options or no options, all that matters is if the parts are within the kit that is sold. Or in the case of several specialist games - parts sold in expansion kits by GW.
What you're looking at is the greater impact of Chapterhouse which wasn't just GW stopping putting stuff in codex that they didn't make, but also now perhaps taking a design choice to make designs less easily converted/added too with 3rd party parts.
That said in this day and age if that were their intent it would be wasted effort since those wanting 3rd party parts would just start getting whole 3rd party models. Instead of buying a GW model (GW gets money) and then buying after market parts (costs the gamer more).
Instead I think some of their parting designs are because of CAD. Instead of someone having to manually cut parts off a master model, they instead have a computer program. It allows them to create angles and shapes within plastic casting that previously were near impossible or very hard to design. Undercuts and the like in shape and form which just would not work with plastic injection moulding. Some of the creative shapes are because GW is shifting toward far more dynamic model sculptures, which are generally proving popular at making models look really fancy.
Models have gone from that blocky "one cast sculpt" of metal to dynamic dancing/cavorting poses. Of course that comes with downsides (thin connection points; odd casting parting designs; less modularity etc....); but it has the upside that you get impressive models quicker.
Overread wrote: What you're looking at is the greater impact of Chapterhouse which wasn't just GW stopping putting stuff in codex that they didn't make, but also now perhaps taking a design choice to make designs less easily converted/added too with 3rd party parts.
That's part of no model = no rule. You cannot separate them, no matter how much you try.
"No models, no rules" would be fine if they just had stopped making anymore datasheets with no models to match or with options that require you to buy third party bits or require decent modelling skills to create.
What it did though was delete dozens of things which have been around for years, some clearly intended and even advertised kit-bashes, some had official upgrade sprues or models in the past which simply aren't sold anymore, up to the point of crippling entire armies without providing replacements for the entries lost.
And the worst part of it all is that their pet armies got exceptions from the rule, while others were losing options that actually do have models, even to this day.
No matter what the concept could have been, there is nothing good to say about how GW implemented it.
To bring this back to Necrons - I see that process very much in what happened to Crypteks - where we has all these awesome Cryptek varieties - and all they had to do was make a nice plastic kit like the old Warhammer Empire Wizard kit. They didn't - they made just one flavor of Cryptek in "Fine"cast - and the next codex all the crypteks were gone. They're only now coming back out.
Ironically they resin cryptek was a Cryptek of Destrcution back in the day - somewhat analogous to a Plasmancer. Then for 2 editions he was a generic Technomancer essentially. But now he's technically a Chronomancer because he's carrying a Chronomotron.
GW went from one extreme, were the best units of book got no model at all and there was no chance to buy something from the GW line up to convert it (looking at Thunderwolves in 5th were the only possible GW model was the Fantasy Metal Khorne General on Juggernaut, also a reason why Khorne Berserker armies using the SW rules was a thing as "Red" Wolves was a much easier conversion)
to the other extreme were everything gets a model but if the weapon option is not present there are no rules for it (or there are options that make no sense because an old model ist still around)
GW cannot even find a balance for their model design.....
Jidmah wrote: "No models, no rules" would be fine if they just had stopped making anymore datasheets with no models to match or with options that require you to buy third party bits or require decent modelling skills to create.
What it did though was delete dozens of things which have been around for years, some clearly intended and even advertised kit-bashes, some had official upgrade sprues or models in the past which simply aren't sold anymore, up to the point of crippling entire armies without providing replacements for the entries lost.
And the worst part of it all is that their pet armies got exceptions from the rule, while others were losing options that actually do have models, even to this day.
No matter what the concept could have been, there is nothing good to say about how GW implemented it.
Nothing to add to that except , that GW also used it as an club for internal polticking on top of it.
In essence the only ones really hurt from it, Monetarily and in the freedom of adaptability is the playerbase.
Jidmah wrote: "No models, no rules" would be fine if they just had stopped making anymore datasheets with no models to match or with options that require you to buy third party bits or require decent modelling skills to create.
What it did though was delete dozens of things which have been around for years, some clearly intended and even advertised kit-bashes, some had official upgrade sprues or models in the past which simply aren't sold anymore, up to the point of crippling entire armies without providing replacements for the entries lost.
And the worst part of it all is that their pet armies got exceptions from the rule, while others were losing options that actually do have models, even to this day.
No matter what the concept could have been, there is nothing good to say about how GW implemented it.
Nothing to add to that except , that GW also used it as an club for internal polticking on top of it.
In essence the only ones really hurt from it, Monetarily and in the freedom of adaptability is the playerbase.
top down interventions in favour of sales f.e. (wraithknight debacle...)
Certainly the constant bickering between FW and GW.
The fact that over the whole edition FW units handled by the gw rulesteam got blatantly ignored in regards to FAQ or CA...
That is either politicking or incompetence of a massive magnitutde. and even though i don't think highly of GW's rules department that incompetent they are not.
Not Online!!! wrote: top down interventions in favour of sales f.e. (wraithknight debacle...)
Certainly the constant bickering between FW and GW.
The fact that over the whole edition FW units handled by the gw rulesteam got blatantly ignored in regards to FAQ or CA...
That is either politicking or incompetence of a massive magnitutde. and even though i don't think highly of GW's rules department that incompetent they are not.
dude, what's going on with forgeworld has absolutely nothing to do with the chapter house Fiasco. if you wanna pin the blame on anything there, blame the sucess of the Horus Heresy leading GW to refocus Forgeworld on specialist games, instead of "botique minis" truthfully I expect them to slowly phase out any 40k and AOS mini's they currently sell as the molds age, unless the minis are in use for HH or another specialist game.
When Primaris were near their beginning and different chapter’s Intercessor Sergeants got different melee weapon options depending on what was in that particular chapter’s upgrade bits pack.
I hate stuff like the Captains though where there’s not a list of options, there’s a list of load outs. Want a plasma pistol? You have to take a power fist, because that’s what was on the one model they sold. Ect.
I don’t mind “No model no rules” for like a entry in its entirety. I just hate the finagled weapon options.
AduroT wrote: When Primaris were near their beginning and different chapter’s Intercessor Sergeants got different melee weapon options depending on what was in that particular chapter’s upgrade bits pack.
Near the beginning? It's still happening.
The Primaris Captain has a host of "loadouts" as so you accurately put them, but one of them is, and I quote:
"If this model is from the Dark Angel Chapter (or one of its successor Chapters), its master-crafted auto bolt rifle can be replaced with 1 special issue bolt carbine."
Same applies to the Necron Overlord. You want an Overlord with a Resurrection Orb and a Hyperphase Glaive? Too bad! The model with the Hypherphase Glaive has a Tachyon Arrow, and the model with the Resurrection Orb has a Warscythe.
Because we, as 40k players, lack the brainpower and the imagination to ever enter a world where an Overlord can wield a Hyperphase Glaive a Res Orb at the same time without confusing himself, or a land where a non-Dark Angel Captain might have a special issue bolt carbine... whatever the feth that is!
It. Is. So. Damned. Asinine.
And there are people here trying to separate this from no model = no rule. I've got so many bridges to sell y'all. Get in line!
AduroT wrote: When Primaris were near their beginning and different chapter’s Intercessor Sergeants got different melee weapon options depending on what was in that particular chapter’s upgrade bits pack.
Near the beginning? It's still happening.
The Primaris Captain has a host of "loadouts" as so you accurately put them, but one of them is, and I quote:
"If this model is from the Dark Angel Chapter (or one of its successor Chapters), its master-crafted auto bolt rifle can be replaced with 1 special issue bolt carbine."
Same applies to the Necron Overlord. You want an Overlord with a Resurrection Orb and a Hyperphase Glaive? Too bad! The model with the Hypherphase Glaive has a Tachyon Arrow, and the model with the Resurrection Orb has a Warscythe.
Because we, as 40k players, lack the brainpower and the imagination to ever enter a world where an Overlord can wield a Hyperphase Glaive a Res Orb at the same time without confusing himself, or a land where a non-Dark Angel Captain might have a special issue bolt carbine... whatever the feth that is!
It. Is. So. Damned. Asinine.
And there are people here trying to separate this from no model = no rule. I've got so many bridges to sell y'all. Get in line!
Yeah, I remember in earlier editions where you can kit out your model how you want, not this arbitrary cookie cutter crap. They are even doing it to Orks, an army is that supposed to be all about customization due to how anarchic they are, and its bs.
If GW was smart they would have all of the options in the kit and allow the player to do what he wants, but apparently that's beyond their competence.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: They are even doing it to Orks, an army is that supposed to be all about customization due to how anarchic they are, and its bs.
Orks are the gold standard for this nonsense actually.
They released six - count 'em - six different buggies. No options. No alternate builds. Nothing. The Orks received 6 different buggy kits, rather than a buggy (or two) with lots of mix'n'match. The same people who designed kits like the Battlewagon, Flash Gitz, and even the basic Trukk or Mek Gunz are not the same people who gave the Orks 6 monopose option-less vehicles. The Orks, FFS.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: They are even doing it to Orks, an army is that supposed to be all about customization due to how anarchic they are, and its bs.
Orks are the gold standard for this nonsense actually.
They released six - count 'em - six different buggies. No options. No alternate builds. Nothing. The Orks received 6 different buggy kits, rather than a buggy (or two) with lots of mix'n'match. The same people who designed kits like the Battlewagon, Flash Gitz, and even the basic Trukk or Mek Gunz are not the same people who gave the Orks 6 monopose option-less vehicles. The Orks, FFS.
i miss those kits.
I remember when the GW ork planes came out, such nice models. so many options to customize...
Nowadays you have to be happy if you even get the full barebones loadout for customizable squads ...
CthuluIsSpy wrote: They are even doing it to Orks, an army is that supposed to be all about customization due to how anarchic they are, and its bs.
Orks are the gold standard for this nonsense actually.
They released six - count 'em - six different buggies. No options. No alternate builds. Nothing. The Orks received 6 different buggy kits, rather than a buggy (or two) with lots of mix'n'match. The same people who designed kits like the Battlewagon, Flash Gitz, and even the basic Trukk or Mek Gunz are not the same people who gave the Orks 6 monopose option-less vehicles. The Orks, FFS.
I agree with you in general, and I know this is a popular example, but it's just wrong.
I have build and painted every single one of the ork buggies. I'd even wager that most of them were made by the same guy who originally designed the trukk because the way the motor, the drivers, the wheels and the rollcages are made is extremely similar in style. The megatrakk scrapjet is comparable in style to the jets and just as pose-able as them. The squig buggy actually allows you to put some of the passengers, a pile of squigs and the only snotling model currently available in 40k anywhere you wish. The SJD can be modified by removing or replacing parts of it.
What options does the trukk have? A wrekkin' ball and the now defunct boarding planks, otherwise it's just as posable as the kustom boosta blasta.
If you really want to build your own ramshackle fleet of buggies, they seem to be made with just that in mind. Wheels can be freely switched across them, the tubes for rollcages can be partially assembled and fit into pieces of other buggies and motors are separate bits with detail all around so you can put them in exposed places without looking at blank plastic.
Death Guard vehicles don't have that luxury, every single piece has to be in the right place or they look like gak.
On top of that, if you had only one or two different kits with options, an army of nine buggies+wartrike would definitely look less diverse than it does now. Just look at any army running 4-5 battlewgons, 6+ trukks, 9 kanz or 12-18 mek guns how much difference options and posable crew makes.
I do understand and agree with your gripe for the modern infantry models with one leg attached to a weapon (fethin' plague marines), but ork buggies are by far the worst example to pick. They are perfectly fine models that can easily compare with classics like trukks or battlewagons.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: They are even doing it to Orks, an army is that supposed to be all about customization due to how anarchic they are, and its bs.
Orks are the gold standard for this nonsense actually.
They released six - count 'em - six different buggies. No options. No alternate builds. Nothing. The Orks received 6 different buggy kits, rather than a buggy (or two) with lots of mix'n'match. The same people who designed kits like the Battlewagon, Flash Gitz, and even the basic Trukk or Mek Gunz are not the same people who gave the Orks 6 monopose option-less vehicles. The Orks, FFS.
I agree with you in general, and I know this is a popular example, but it's just wrong. I have build and painted every single one of the ork buggies. I'd even wager that most of them were made by the same guy who originally designed the trukk because the way the motor, the drivers, the wheels and the rollcages are made is extremely similar in style. The megatrakk scrapjet is comparable in style to the jets and just as pose-able as them. The squig buggy actually allows you to put some of the passengers, a pile of squigs and the only snotling model currently available in 40k anywhere you wish. The SJD can be modified by removing or replacing parts of it. What options does the trukk have? A wrekkin' ball and the now defunct boarding planks, otherwise it's just as posable as the kustom boosta blasta. If you really want to build your own ramshackle fleet of buggies, they seem to be made with just that in mind. Wheels can be freely switched across them, the tubes for rollcages can be partially assembled and fit into pieces of other buggies and motors are separate bits with detail all around so you can put them in exposed places without looking at blank plastic. Death Guard vehicles don't have that luxury, every single piece has to be in the right place or they look like gak.
On top of that, if you had only one or two different kits with options, an army of nine buggies+wartrike would definitely look less diverse than it does now. Just look at any army running 4-5 battlewgons, 6+ trukks, 9 kanz or 12-18 mek guns how much difference options and posable crew makes.
I do understand and agree with your gripe for the modern infantry models with one leg attached to a weapon (fethin' plague marines), but ork buggies are by far the worst example to pick. They are perfectly fine models that can easily compare with classics like trukks or battlewagons.
I was not aware that the wheels were interchangeable between kits. Interesting. The Dethkilla Wartrike is still kind of dull though, and the whole nonsense in the 8th ed book where you don't have a Mega Armored Warboss and no generic mek option because there isn't a current model for it is still a load of crap. Of course, in true GW fashion they give you back the mek option, but only if you buy a campaign book for it
GW just isn't friendly to proper kitbashing that goes beyond a simple headswap anymore. Which means they aren't friendly towards how Orks are supposed to be. Its why for the longest time Orks were missing some of their options, because you were expected to make your own (see: Looted Wagon, which is still Open Play only for some stupid reason), and the new policy punishes them for it.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: (see: Looted Wagon, which is still Open Play only for some stupid reason), and the new policy punishes them for it.
I doubt this is the reason. Every additional orks rule is open play only, even if the model is currently sold by GW(Grukk Face-Rippa) and all other factions do get to use the models from the same source in matched play (BSF).
Not coming. App replaced digital books. Not even way to buy for app only like in aos(well that's basically ebook anyway but only readable inside app and cheaper than reqular ebook
Solidcrash wrote: Did anyone heard anything about digital enchanted edition Codex? There are only physical book only with datasheet code for w40k app so far.
Solidcrash wrote: Did anyone heard anything about digital enchanted edition Codex? There are only physical book only with datasheet code for w40k app so far.
I agree with you in general, and I know this is a popular example, but it's just wrong.
I have build and painted every single one of the ork buggies. I'd even wager that most of them were made by the same guy who originally designed the trukk because the way the motor, the drivers, the wheels and the rollcages are made is extremely similar in style.
Since GW uses Renders to design their Minis, and uses a lot of Copy&Paste to save time, this does not proof that it is the same designer
just that they used existing files as base for the new vehicles instead of making new ones
Did you guys ever consider that maybe, 40K is just too big of a game, with far too many models and far too many factions + subfactions?
It took me a while, but since I've put all my stuff in boxes and put them away for a year while I try other games, I'm finding a whole world of much better designed and fun to play games out there, most of them for half the buy in.
Togusa wrote: Did you guys ever consider that maybe, 40K is just too big of a game, with far too many models and far too many factions + subfactions?
It took me a while, but since I've put all my stuff in boxes and put them away for a year while I try other games, I'm finding a whole world of much better designed and fun to play games out there, most of them for half the buy in.
Maybe Warhammer is just too big.
This thought has occurred to me a couple of times, and I agree. It could do with a way of consolidating factions somehow... like, maybe some kind of core faction book for its worst culprit and then supplements for those that want to dive deeper into a particular subfaction.
...oh, wait.
Togusa wrote: Did you guys ever consider that maybe, 40K is just too big of a game, with far too many models and far too many factions + subfactions?
It took me a while, but since I've put all my stuff in boxes and put them away for a year while I try other games, I'm finding a whole world of much better designed and fun to play games out there, most of them for half the buy in.
Maybe Warhammer is just too big.
This thought has occurred to me a couple of times, and I agree. It could do with a way of consolidating factions somehow... like, maybe some kind of core faction book for its worst culprit and then supplements for those that want to dive deeper into a particular subfaction.
...oh, wait.
The supplements exist solely to milk the playerbase.
If the core book would've had customizable units, depending upon your subfaction choice, you'd need non of that BS...
but that would require an investment into somewhat diminished returns because the whales are going to buy anyways.
yes Warhammer is too big
at least for what it wants to be
in a game like Kill Team, having lots of Mini-Factions that are similar with just different models would be no problem
but having mini-factions in the large game gets difficult as not just 5 different models are needed but different units
it works for Necromunda, yet if every Necromunda faction would need to be playable at 2000 points 40k, you get the same result
Jidmah wrote: Nonsense. They vehicles are completely distinct, yet of similar style. There is exactly zero copy&paste going on.
You are trying too hard to find a problem where there is none.
you said it must be the same designer because those parts are similar
yet GW uses renders for design and copy&pastes to make work easier, hence why a lot of large models have the same basic pose
than you tell me that this is not the case because the designs are completely distinct and just a similar style
so it is again not a proof that it is the same designer
you made a claim because of the specific design of some parts, yet that does not proof anything
Jidmah wrote: Nonsense. They vehicles are completely distinct, yet of similar style. There is exactly zero copy&paste going on.
You are trying too hard to find a problem where there is none.
you said it must be the same designer because those parts are similar
yet GW uses renders for design and copy&pastes to make work easier, hence why a lot of large models have the same basic pose
than you tell me that this is not the case because the designs are completely distinct and just a similar style
so it is again not a proof that it is the same designer
you made a claim because of the specific design of some parts, yet that does not proof anything
I don't need to prove anything. I know what I have seen and experienced when building and painting these models and your theory is easily proven wrong, just have a look at the wheels. A style cannot be copy&pasted. At worst, another designer has mimicked the design of old popular vehicles, which is a good thing, not a bad one.
A trukk, a KBB and a snazzwagon have the same style. They way the wheels are done, the way certain parts of the motors look and their bits are cut, the wheels, the rollcages, the same odd way driver seats are made, as well as the steering wheel, exhausts, chains and metal teeth ornaments. The bits or part are neither copies nor rescales of each other, and you can clearly tell the difference of the technology used to create those models, but they still feel very similar.
If I had to guess, there are 3-4 different designers/teams creating ork vehicles - the person who did the naut, battlewagon, kans, dreads and the squig buggy, one person who made the trukk, KBB and snazzwagon, one who created the bommers, dakka jets, wartrike, warbikers and the scrapjet and one who created the wazzbom, mek guns, SJD, SAG and MANz.
H.B.M.C. wrote: They probably have a library of assets they can re-use for 3D sculpting. I mean, why remake a bolt pistol again when it's already done?
Sure, and they also do that with the buggies - for example, multiple of them have very similar suspension (that's why you can mix&match wheels), the saw blades on the squig buggy and the SJD are the same and all the big shootas are very similar.
The stuff I'm talking about has nothing to do with that though. An asset library doesn't create six completely differently shaped exhaust pipes or creates scrapjet hull which looks completely different but builds exactly like a dakkajet.
H.B.M.C. wrote: They probably have a library of assets they can re-use for 3D sculpting. I mean, why remake a bolt pistol again when it's already done?
To be fair they did plenty of that when actually sculpting the models, too. There's plenty of pics in White Dwarf of new mini greens that are half a plastic Marine cut up with new details. I actually pulled out the issue where the plastic Giant debuted recently and there's an article touting it as one of the last 'traditionally sculpted' models with a little spread by Jervis about the new digital sculpting technology they were using. What a trip.
Did anyone else Preorder a Necron codex from GW directly?
My order has been on "pending" with no change since I put it in.
I waited the pre-requisite 7 business days after the Monday when the codex was released to contact customer support and I got an auto-generated message back that it would take them 10 business days to respond to my message.
Didn't preorder the Necron Codex, but did order a Faramir, Madril, and Damrod set from them at the same time you're mentioning. It took a good chunk of time.
My tracking info came via UPS instead of FedEx as usual...so there might be something going on that end.
Did anyone else Preorder a Necron codex from GW directly?
My order has been on "pending" with no change since I put it in.
I waited the pre-requisite 7 business days after the Monday when the codex was released to contact customer support and I got an auto-generated message back that it would take them 10 business days to respond to my message.
Anyone else having a similar experience?
not with 9th Edi Codex but previous ones
GW explained it to me that Pre-Orders are proceeded into an Order the Monday after the release weekend and if the initial stock at the local GW depot runs out of books before your pre-order proceeds you have to wait for restock which can take up to 6 months
and was told that it was my fault as I did not use "pick up at GW store" for my pre-order and they can do nothing about it
so good luck to you and hope that it is something different
Did anyone else Preorder a Necron codex from GW directly?
My order has been on "pending" with no change since I put it in.
I waited the pre-requisite 7 business days after the Monday when the codex was released to contact customer support and I got an auto-generated message back that it would take them 10 business days to respond to my message.
Anyone else having a similar experience?
Mine didn't leave their warehouse until the tuesday or wednesday afterwards, then took over a week to get to me. (And maddeningly, the Doomstalker I also ordered wasn't in the box, though I've been charged for it, so now I'm waiting on their currently horrible customer service (no phone calls, emails have an estimated 10 day wait time for a response). I'm a bit hacked off about the whole thing to be honest. I get the Covid-distancing delays in the warehouse, but not customer service. At least not to the point of killing phone service entirely and limiting email service to this degree. Those jobs can be naturally socially distanced.
And when I checked the customer service page, all of this (no phone calls, 10 day response time) was up front, and blamed on Covid.
But honestly there is zero utility in 'preordering' if it takes this long and is this messed up.
Call centres aren't easily socially distanced because originally they were tightly packed rooms full of operators. Suddenly going down to a fraction of staff and not always having the facilities to allow home phone-ins to work (even if you can get it setup to dial their home number, they might not have an online computer system setup that allows the operator to be able to deal with your problem).
Online could be the same thing in that yes staff can work from home, but the software isn't built to work from home.
Another aspect is that GW's customer service system is likely getting WAY more calls/contacts than normal. So its a double hit of far more use of something that is operating under-staffed.
Plus GW is likely hoping to ride it out without having to invest a huge amount rebuilding their customer service system when in a year or so going back to the "old way" is perfectly safe and normal.
That's their problem to figure out. And at six months into the pandemic, it should have been.
'Screw it, we'll just dump staff and continue to make customer service worse for the customer' isn't an acceptable strategy at this point. And certainly won't be for the next year or so it will take to clean up this mess.
Did anyone else Preorder a Necron codex from GW directly?
My order has been on "pending" with no change since I put it in.
I waited the pre-requisite 7 business days after the Monday when the codex was released to contact customer support and I got an auto-generated message back that it would take them 10 business days to respond to my message.
Anyone else having a similar experience?
not I but I had my copy shipped to my local GW store
Overread wrote: Call centres aren't easily socially distanced because originally they were tightly packed rooms full of operators. Suddenly going down to a fraction of staff and not always having the facilities to allow home phone-ins to work (even if you can get it setup to dial their home number, they might not have an online computer system setup that allows the operator to be able to deal with your problem).
Online could be the same thing in that yes staff can work from home, but the software isn't built to work from home.
This might have been a valid excuse for the first 2, maybe 3 months. But I can confidently say that if GW haven't gotten their call centre IT sorted to work remotely by now, they're either grossly incompetent at it (or their third party is), or they just don't care enough.
I'd be willing to bet it's a combination of the two.
Speaking from my experience working for an IT services provider in the UK - with an office of our own in Nottingham, no less! - that had all of our customers' servicedesks up and running to full service again in a matter of weeks.
I third this. Having the majority of people in a call center operate from homeoffice is not a hard thing to do at all, and there has been more than enough time to find, buy and implement a solution by now.
I think the actual reason for the call center is going under might be an unprecedented amount of problems with the release and that they might simply not be staffed for such a huge amount of issues. My last company had a decent support team which usually managed to clear out all issues by the end of the day, but if there was a major problem with the software it usually took them a week or two to catch up.
eosgreen wrote: no chronomancer this week... im so heartbroken
\sadly necrons are proably linked to the space marine release, so expect a slow ass release schedule over the next 3-4 months. welcome to our hell :(
Its two characters and a 5 man box (wish it were ten, but given the unit size is still 5-20, I expect 5). That's literally all that's left. It doesn't need to be 'linked' to anything. They can just put this codex to bed.*
The 'week 4' necron releases are small enough to be tossed in with anything else.
*[If they'd gone all out and redone the c'tan and basic destroyers, they honestly could've taken a couple years hiatus]
eosgreen wrote: no chronomancer this week... im so heartbroken
\sadly necrons are proably linked to the space marine release, so expect a slow ass release schedule over the next 3-4 months. welcome to our hell :(
It's everyone's hell. They should have released all the loyalists and Necrons stuff quickly and gotten on to other factions. I can at least understand the models, but the loyalist supplements should have been dropped in one go, that way all loyalist chapters would be on roughly equal footing from the get go instead of being forced to wait, and they could have moved up the release schedule for everyone else. Instead everyone has to wait, wait, wait.....
That goes against gw's goal of getting impulse buys from players. If they release all at once there are people who can"t afford to buy all at once. If you spread it people have time to recharge wallet and gets hit by hype at full strength and buy more than intended. Majority of sales come in first few months. They don't want to weaken that
tneva82 wrote: That goes against gw's goal of getting impulse buys from players. If they release all at once there are people who can"t afford to buy all at once. If you spread it people have time to recharge wallet and gets hit by hype at full strength and buy more than intended. Majority of sales come in first few months. They don't want to weaken that
No, most people wouldn't buy all the supplements at once. They'd buy the one for their primary chapter, then the one for their other chapter a month or so later. So, same results. Flawed logic.
tneva82 wrote: That goes against gw's goal of getting impulse buys from players. If they release all at once there are people who can"t afford to buy all at once. If you spread it people have time to recharge wallet and gets hit by hype at full strength and buy more than intended. Majority of sales come in first few months. They don't want to weaken that
No, most people wouldn't buy all the supplements at once. They'd buy the one for their primary chapter, then the one for their other chapter a month or so later. So, same results. Flawed logic.
sure except if they release supplement space wolves, supplement blood angels, blade guard veterns, invader ATVs, the chaplain etc all at once, a guy who might otherwise have picked up a supplement for an army he doesn't play "for the lore" might not.
that said as a Lore Monkey who was inclined to get all the supplements, I gotta say if the supplements take the same approuch to lore the new marines codex does, forget buying extras I'll just buy what I need
tneva82 wrote: That goes against gw's goal of getting impulse buys from players. If they release all at once there are people who can"t afford to buy all at once. If you spread it people have time to recharge wallet and gets hit by hype at full strength and buy more than intended. Majority of sales come in first few months. They don't want to weaken that
No, most people wouldn't buy all the supplements at once. They'd buy the one for their primary chapter, then the one for their other chapter a month or so later. So, same results. Flawed logic.
sure except if they release supplement space wolves, supplement blood angels, blade guard veterns, invader ATVs, the chaplain etc all at once, a guy who might otherwise have picked up a supplement for an army he doesn't play "for the lore" might not.
that said as a Lore Monkey who was inclined to get all the supplements, I gotta say if the supplements take the same approuch to lore the new marines codex does, forget buying extras I'll just buy what I need
As I said, I can understand spreading out the model releases, but not rules. Four straight months of almost nothing but loyalist marines, with only a single chaos codex (which is, after all, just more marines, just with spikes and some Nurgeling up) and one Xenos codex is going to cause more complaints of marine bias, which I think we've all heard enough of by now, while also forcing loyalist players of some chapters to wait for their rules. Other factions need updating, stretching out the release of the loyalist rules just pushes those updates further back.
BrianDavion wrote: ... that said as a Lore Monkey who was inclined to get all the supplements, I gotta say if the supplements take the same approuch to lore the new marines codex does, forget buying extras I'll just buy what I need
Can you elaborate? Did the writing get worse? Did they drop background to fit in more rules?
BrianDavion wrote: ... that said as a Lore Monkey who was inclined to get all the supplements, I gotta say if the supplements take the same approuch to lore the new marines codex does, forget buying extras I'll just buy what I need
Can you elaborate? Did the writing get worse? Did they drop background to fit in more rules?
the writings fine, but... there feels like there's less lore. for example, in previous codices we'd get a page or so of lore for each unit, but that's gone now :(
BrianDavion wrote: ... that said as a Lore Monkey who was inclined to get all the supplements, I gotta say if the supplements take the same approuch to lore the new marines codex does, forget buying extras I'll just buy what I need
Can you elaborate? Did the writing get worse? Did they drop background to fit in more rules?
the writings fine, but... there feels like there's less lore. for example, in previous codices we'd get a page or so of lore for each unit, but that's gone now :(
Yeah I was very sad not to see the lore page for units. I hope its a complaint that filters back to GW because over the years I've loved seeing the quantity and depth of the lore of the codex increase through the Tyranids and I'd hate to think of it going backwards.
BrianDavion wrote: ... that said as a Lore Monkey who was inclined to get all the supplements, I gotta say if the supplements take the same approuch to lore the new marines codex does, forget buying extras I'll just buy what I need
Can you elaborate? Did the writing get worse? Did they drop background to fit in more rules?
the writings fine, but... there feels like there's less lore. for example, in previous codices we'd get a page or so of lore for each unit, but that's gone now :(
Yeah I was very sad not to see the lore page for units. I hope its a complaint that filters back to GW because over the years I've loved seeing the quantity and depth of the lore of the codex increase through the Tyranids and I'd hate to think of it going backwards.
agreed. I'm a little concerned that this is the result of "feedback" from the tourny players they have working with their playtest team now. :(
BrianDavion wrote: ... that said as a Lore Monkey who was inclined to get all the supplements, I gotta say if the supplements take the same approuch to lore the new marines codex does, forget buying extras I'll just buy what I need
Can you elaborate? Did the writing get worse? Did they drop background to fit in more rules?
the writings fine, but... there feels like there's less lore. for example, in previous codices we'd get a page or so of lore for each unit, but that's gone now :(
Its varied quite a bit over the decades- and alot was copy paste edition after edition or repeated info. I think there is more lore in total than in most editions, its def quite wide ranging.
Alot of it seems to be still present but in the main lore pages on the different Chapter elements which I actually like better - it also means the data slates are less cluttered - again which I like.
Just been putting the Monolith together, one thing I found a bit annoying was the way the guns were fitted, clamped between the two halves of the exterior. Obviously you really need to paint the guns before fitting them (this is even suggested in the instructions), especially if you want to leave them to move, but then that means that you're either having to paint the exterior before putting the two sides together which will leave a nasty join line, or messing about with a load of tricky masking around the guns.
Seems like it would have been really easy to have the guns push through from the back and then have a piece glued over the back of them to keep them in place. I ended up hacking the gun sockets up with a knife so I could just glue the guns in from behind later.
BrianDavion wrote: ... that said as a Lore Monkey who was inclined to get all the supplements, I gotta say if the supplements take the same approuch to lore the new marines codex does, forget buying extras I'll just buy what I need
Can you elaborate? Did the writing get worse? Did they drop background to fit in more rules?
the writings fine, but... there feels like there's less lore. for example, in previous codices we'd get a page or so of lore for each unit, but that's gone now :(
Its varied quite a bit over the decades- and alot was copy paste edition after edition or repeated info. I think there is more lore in total than in most editions, its def quite wide ranging.
Alot of it seems to be still present but in the main lore pages on the different Chapter elements which I actually like better - it also means the data slates are less cluttered - again which I like.
keep in mind you say "copypasta" because you've been around for awhile, but remember new players don't have 4 editions of space marine codices to go back. so repeats of stuff is honestly not a bad thing. If, for example, I was coming into 40k fresh with this codex I'd not be able to tell you what the organs in a marine all where, etc. which I felt was a pretty signficigent "missing" bit of lore.
Honestly, for new players a fluff page to the store or a dedicated GW page for this purpose and maybe a beginner's guide leaflet would do the job just as well.
I really like reading the fluff of units, but the plague marines entry in the DG codex is exactly the same one as in 4th edition's CSM codex. Printing it over and over again is just a waste of money for everyone.
Jidmah wrote: Honestly, for new players a fluff page to the store or a dedicated GW page for this purpose and maybe a beginner's guide leaflet would do the job just as well.
I really like reading the fluff of units, but the plague marines entry in the DG codex is exactly the same one as in 4th edition's CSM codex. Printing it over and over again is just a waste of money for everyone.
In my experience if you make fluff optional fewer people engage with it. Ask yourself how many friends and even if you yourself read Black Library books. Because I'd wager many don't, or might have read the odd one or two.
Warmachine hit the same issues, separation of fluff from rules resulted in a fast dwindling uptake of the fluff.
Essentially we each have a budget and we budget around the game. So components essential to the game - models, tools, paints, rules - become necessary purchases. When we are really into the game our purchasing goes up (as our budget allows); but at the same time because we are playing we are more likely to want to invest into rules to use the models and into models to use on the tabletop. So fluff gets pushed to the side. Meanwhile if we start to slow down and focus on other things, we are focusing on other things so we aren't likely to pick up fluff then either.
At the same time fluff sells an army and it also helps reinforce that sale and enthusiasm. There are many who "come back" to 40K because of the fluff; many who enjoy the game and the little bits of fun it helps instil in us. We do like fluff; its often something people complain about smaller games and other brands is that the fluff isn't that well developed or isnt' that accessible or just isn't really there beyond a few mentions on a store page.
My view is fluff and rules should not be separated. Codex should remain a fountain of lore as much as they are for rules. It helps reinforce the connection. Sure pros dont' want all the fluff that they've read for years; they might want the few pages of new stuff, but the rest is repeated. Thing is the codex isn't just for them, its for those brand new to an army who have been gaming for years; its for those who are brand new to the entire game itself. It's a multi-purpose document and should remain so. Weakening/reducing/cutting out the lore would be a very very bad idea. It would appease the few who just want rules, but is it.
Jidmah wrote: Honestly, for new players a fluff page to the store or a dedicated GW page for this purpose and maybe a beginner's guide leaflet would do the job just as well.
I really like reading the fluff of units, but the plague marines entry in the DG codex is exactly the same one as in 4th edition's CSM codex. Printing it over and over again is just a waste of money for everyone.
What changed? 4th ed market target was new players, 2020 market target is new players. Old players are insignificant side bonus for gw. Main target is timmy 12yo buying army. Once that army is sold focus goes to next timmy 12yo
Anybody from 4th ed is whatever for gw. So far from their focus not even same country
The vast of majority of players that joined our group during 8th and 9th have not read the fluff in their codices either. They read things on their phones, tablets and pcs. They read wikis, blogs or listen to youtube videos and podcasts. Most of the veteran player haven't read their codices' fluff because it has been the same for decades. They literally use their books for rules only, some even don't use their codices at all outside of rules arguments or for checking if battlescribe is correct. Some of the marine players are even wondering whether they should buy books at all, considering how fast their hardbacks are invalidated and that there is no more digital version they can put on their tablet.
People don't suddenly start reading the fluff because it happens to be stuck to the same outdated release mechanism as their rules, especially not when it's mostly low-effort reprints.
I don't think it helps that there have been so many Marine Codexes with the exact same info - so much was new in the Sisters Dex because its been so rare they get anything.
I enjoyed the new dex and presentation style of the lore info.
I am also pleased there was a lot of lore pages - pgs 3-89 even with the huge amount of rules and datasheets (sooo many datasheets) from 90-201 (!)
What changed? 4th ed market target was new players, 2020 market target is new players. Old players are insignificant side bonus for gw. Main target is timmy 12yo buying army. Once that army is sold focus goes to next timmy 12yo
Anybody from 4th ed is whatever for gw. So far from their focus not even same country
Not sure? There are lot of us older players with lots of money to spend on product - even if its also for kids...
It's one thing to not read something that is there; its much harder to read something that isn't there.
People keep saying books are out-dated and yet GW seems to have no problem selling them. Yes apps and such exist, but not every gamer uses them; plus they have their own hurdles and pitfalls. I'd also say that besides the Big Rule Books, the Battletomes and Codex are not that big even when fully loaded with fluff.
The real issue we had before was not the fluff, it was that GW had setup the rules in a very confusing and messy way for several generations of codex. There was a LOT of breakup of information which meant a single unit required a lot of flipping back and forth on pages to find the information you needed. It wasn't that the fluff got in the way, it was that GW's layout of information was flawed.
The new Necron codex is FAR simpler than before and reminds me of the more classic codex where all information for each model was basically on the same page.
I do enjoy the fluff sections in the books, but I had found myself skim-reading a lot of the last couple of Marine books. On the other hand, because the new book had a lot of different stuff in there instead, I found myself reading the entire thing, front to back.
The reduction in fluff is likely a simple result of how much the rest of the marine book has expanded. 178? Datasheets take up a lot of space (even if some could have been easily merged like the predators, gladiators, gravis captains and storm speeders). The Marine book is already near twice the size of the necron codex. Trimming some of the fluff means no need for an extra 16 or 32 page block making the book even bigger, heavier, and more expensive to produce and ship.
Overread wrote: Aye but the Necron Codex is smaller and is also missing the fluff pages for units as well.
How does it compare to previous editions - they do vary quite a lot - the early one was quite lite on lore and some of that was setting up mysteries but it was very evocative with the images.
The Necron lord has vanished entirely from GWs website. And in the codex there is also no picture (except for the unit profiles) of any unit with the green rods. I wonder if there will be a second wave of necrons in this edition to replace at least the old destroyers, their lord and the normal lord.
Shas O Ores wrote: The Necron lord has vanished entirely from GWs website. And in the codex there is also no picture (except for the unit profiles) of any unit with the green rods. I wonder if there will be a second wave of necrons in this edition to replace at least the old destroyers, their lord and the normal lord.
The Lokhust Destroyer kit (as the old Destroyers are now known) has been reworked with blank plastic rods on the sprue. They're not going away anytime soon.
Yes I know of the new heavy destroyer kit.
But has GW ever removed a unit completly from it's website (the past 2 weeks it was only market as permanently sold out) and did not replace it with a new kit, especially since the "lord" is still in the new codex?
Shas O Ores wrote: Yes I know of the new heavy destroyer kit.
But has GW ever removed a unit completly from it's website (the past 2 weeks it was only market as permanently sold out) and did not replace it with a new kit, especially since the "lord" is still in the new codex?
Yeah, this is a good catch. The Old lord is what is in the datasheet in the dex too.
I suspect there will be replacements eventually, but I'd be suprised if it's anytime soon.
Shas O Ores wrote: Yes I know of the new heavy destroyer kit.
But has GW ever removed a unit completly from it's website (the past 2 weeks it was only market as permanently sold out) and did not replace it with a new kit, especially since the "lord" is still in the new codex?
I'm not talking about the new Lokhust Heavy Destroyer kit. I'm talking about the kit for this model...
It's the Lokhust Destroyer kit now and it's sprue has been recut to have four grey plastic rods to replace the green rods.
Shas O Ores wrote: Yes I know of the new heavy destroyer kit.
But has GW ever removed a unit completly from it's website (the past 2 weeks it was only market as permanently sold out) and did not replace it with a new kit, especially since the "lord" is still in the new codex?
I'm not talking about the new Lokhust Heavy Destroyer kit. I'm talking about the kit for this model...
It's the Lokhust Destroyer kit now and it's sprue has been recut to have four grey plastic rods to replace the green rods.
I dunno what you're on about. On the US site it's listed as 'Necron Destroyer' and advertised as including four green Necron Rods.
Destroyer Lord still appears on the USA and UKGW stores - out of stock but still there.
For some reason GW has recut the destroyer sprue, but hasn't put any updated photos online for the product. Likely because the recut means its not changed its product code so its not prompted them. An oversight perhaps or just that they've recut and no one has painted up one for display for the net.
That and/or they are keeping the old ones up till they run out of green rod stocks.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: I dunno what you're on about. On the US site it's listed as 'Necron Destroyer' and advertised as including four green Necron Rods.
That may well be how it's advertised on the US site, because the US still has some stock of them to sell? I also wouldn't be surprised if the missing entries will reappear once their kits have been recut with grey plastic instead too.
Shas O Ores wrote: Yes I know of the new heavy destroyer kit.
But has GW ever removed a unit completly from it's website (the past 2 weeks it was only market as permanently sold out) and did not replace it with a new kit, especially since the "lord" is still in the new codex?
I'm not talking about the new Lokhust Heavy Destroyer kit. I'm talking about the kit for this model...
It's the Lokhust Destroyer kit now and it's sprue has been recut to have four grey plastic rods to replace the green rods.
I dunno what you're on about. On the US site it's listed as 'Necron Destroyer' and advertised as including four green Necron Rods.
Other posters on Dakka have received the recut kit without the green rods, and that is the kit used for Lokhust Destroyers and is even pictured with the datasheet in the new codex (there is no 'Necron Destroyer' or 'Destroyer' datasheets in the new codex).
It sounds like they are either replacing or complimenting Start Collecting sets going forward. We don't know prices and probably will not until Tuesday.
Huh. That Deathwatch box might make for a decent generic starter, as it slips in an apothecary and lieutenant. (price dependent, of course)
For anyone wondering why the article was late, britain had its fall time change. So its going to be out of sync with people in the US for the next week.
At least theyre launching the November stuff pretty quickly. Means we will likely know more about the upcoming Jan codexs sooner. FW compendium coming out is a big plus though
The Combat Patrol boxes will be more expensive then the SC for sure but could also be a way better starting point as they are basically an army out of the box not like some of the SC sets
Honestly, they should have made a new upgrade sprue, strictly for the Hounds of Morkai. Wolf skull helmets would have been popular as hell. And it could be a good call back to the Horus Heresy unit, the Deathsworn.
Admech got their Start Collecting refreshed not too long ago so if they actually replace the SCs going forward we can expect a long wait until Admech get their codex
It sounds like it is an upgrade sprue strictly for them, which is what pisses me off.
Raven Guard have their First Company regularly utilizing Phobos armor and we didn't get a special unit.
Shrike has a dedicated bodyguard unit called Shrike's Wing...no unit.
Space Wolves come out and get a special unit? Ridiculous.
Is it just me or is that not just a Reiver squad with an upgrade sprue thrown in?
Yes. So I don't get why the article says that they're getting a kit.
Because there's no upgrade parts currently for Phobos.
That's the already existing SW upgrade sprue. The bits from all the upgrade kits fit the phobos too, but inexplicably the rules don't let them take any of the weapons.
Kanluwen wrote: It sounds like it is an upgrade sprue strictly for them, which is what pisses me off.
Raven Guard have their First Company regularly utilizing Phobos armor and we didn't get a special unit.
Shrike has a dedicated bodyguard unit called Shrike's Wing...no unit.
Space Wolves come out and get a special unit? Ridiculous.
Ones a real snowflake chapter getting a new book, and the other is... in the list of first founding chapters.
No surprises here.
GaroRobe wrote:Since the DW and SW: Primaris start collectings are gone, are these going to replace them? And cost hopefully less than (or no more than) $100?
That would be worrying trend if these are really gone, price depending, yes. Kind of pity, wanted more Venerables
EDIT - Scratch that. As pointed out, the "Hounds of Morkai" appear to be nothing more than Reivers plus existing Primaris upgrade sprue, going by that pic.
I guess the wording does omit the word "new", so I shouldn't be too surprised...
Quasistellar wrote: They need a venerable equivalent to the redemptor if they're going to phase out the original box venerable from start collecting boxes
...that would require fixing the Redemptor so it doesn't destroy the pilot.
Is it just me or is that not just a Reiver squad with an upgrade sprue thrown in?
Its not just you unfortunately. As GaroRobe said, wolf skull helms would have been such a good fit. Especially if they were paired with sculpted Phobos shoulders.
*shrug*
I guess this means the DA will probably get a new Primaris unit as well. Anyone want to take bets on it involving Gravis armour and bone white paint?
Dysartes wrote: Looking at that picture, I wouldn't be too excited - I see two heads, one chest plate, and a belt icon. Aside from the two heads, it took me a little while to realise that two of the others weren't stock Reivers.
Having said that, they are a nice pair of unhelmeted heads.
Could just be the angle he's posed at, but the guy in the top right on the picture doesn't appear to have any Wolfy components added to him.
It's just the current space wolf primaries upgrade sprue. Which they can only benefit from getting the unhelmeted heads (two of them), the necklace, and some wolf icons. The helmeted head doesn't work for the set, and neither does the chainsword arm. I guess its fine, since you can use the bits later, but still. Kind of bland
Dysartes wrote: EDIT - Scratch that. As pointed out, the "Hounds of Morkai" appear to be nothing more than Reivers plus existing Primaris upgrade sprue, going by that pic.
I guess the wording does omit the word "new", so I shouldn't be too surprised...
Just a few bits off that upgrade sprue as well- necklace, icon, 'drawing the knife' arm and two heads. No breastplate or shoulder pads at all, but then the upgrade sprue doesn't have a chest piece.
Its amazingly low effort.
Crimson wrote: That's the already existing SW upgrade sprue. The bits from all the upgrade kits fit the phobos too, but inexplicably the rules don't let them take any of the weapons.
Actually, they don't, not really. Phobos have pads with cut corners and slightly different arms. You can, funnily enough, see it on the "fangs" photo - the reiver drawing knife has different, slightly thicker arm without sensor because it was meant for intercessor. All the new bits on this squad are from SW intercessor pack, which is why arms, trinkets, and heads look slightly off. They funnily enough didn't use SW pads for whatever reason though, instead of opting for transfers.
But yeah, it's downright idiotic the reivers can't use upgrade weapons. Power fist replaces arm entirely, so there is no issue of mismatching, even, and the thunder hammer can easily go into the arm meant for knife making it more fluffy and accurate than the above SW knife arm...
Kanluwen wrote: It sounds like it is an upgrade sprue strictly for them, which is what pisses me off.
Raven Guard have their First Company regularly utilizing Phobos armor and we didn't get a special unit.
Shrike has a dedicated bodyguard unit called Shrike's Wing...no unit.
Space Wolves come out and get a special unit? Ridiculous.
Ones a real snowflake chapter getting a new book, and the other is... in the list of first founding chapters.
No surprises here.
The only surprise is that someone might not understand this, or maybe just pretend not to.
I'm very happy we're getting Combat Patrol boxes. The Start Collecting boxes are absolutely my favourite products from GW, I've bought so many for various armies that I didn't previously collect, the only downside for me was the limited scope of the current SC boxes. I really hope these new Combat Patrol boxes offer comparable value, if so I can see myself buying a half dozen or more of these.
Kanluwen wrote: It sounds like it is an upgrade sprue strictly for them, which is what pisses me off.
Raven Guard have their First Company regularly utilizing Phobos armor and we didn't get a special unit.
Shrike has a dedicated bodyguard unit called Shrike's Wing...no unit.
Space Wolves come out and get a special unit? Ridiculous.
Ones a real snowflake chapter getting a new book, and the other is... in the list of first founding chapters.
No surprises here.
The only surprise is that someone might not understand this, or maybe just pretend not to.
I'm very happy we're getting Combat Patrol boxes. The Start Collecting boxes are absolutely my favourite products from GW, I've bought so many for various armies that I didn't previously collect, the only downside for me was the limited scope of the current SC boxes. I really hope these new Combat Patrol boxes offer comparable value, if so I can see myself buying a half dozen or more of these.
I do like boxes in general (especially for getting characters at reasonable prices).... but I can't see getting multiples of these.
The DW one looks like it might be great for getting an apothecary, an LT, and some core primaris units, but there is a limit of how many of those characters are needed.
The SW one... eh. Reivers, that SW guy and even the not-a-dreadnought, I simply don't care. Utility value seems really low.
Kanluwen wrote: It sounds like it is an upgrade sprue strictly for them, which is what pisses me off.
Raven Guard have their First Company regularly utilizing Phobos armor and we didn't get a special unit.
Shrike has a dedicated bodyguard unit called Shrike's Wing...no unit.
Space Wolves come out and get a special unit? Ridiculous.
Ones a real snowflake chapter getting a new book, and the other is... in the list of first founding chapters.
No surprises here.
The only surprise is that someone might not understand this, or maybe just pretend not to.
I'm very happy we're getting Combat Patrol boxes. The Start Collecting boxes are absolutely my favourite products from GW, I've bought so many for various armies that I didn't previously collect, the only downside for me was the limited scope of the current SC boxes. I really hope these new Combat Patrol boxes offer comparable value, if so I can see myself buying a half dozen or more of these.
I do like boxes in general (especially for getting characters at reasonable prices).... but I can't see getting multiples of these.
The DW one looks like it might be great for getting an apothecary, an LT, and some core primaris units, but there is a limit of how many of those characters are needed.
The SW one... eh. Reivers, that SW guy and even the not-a-dreadnought, I simply don't care. Utility value seems really low.
Yeah I don't think I'll buy either of these, but looking ahead, I'd love it if we get a GSC patrol to go with my GSCSC, an AdMech Patrol to go with my AMSC, etc etc.
Kanluwen wrote: It sounds like it is an upgrade sprue strictly for them, which is what pisses me off.
Raven Guard have their First Company regularly utilizing Phobos armor and we didn't get a special unit.
Shrike has a dedicated bodyguard unit called Shrike's Wing...no unit.
Space Wolves come out and get a special unit? Ridiculous.
Ones a real snowflake chapter getting a new book, and the other is... in the list of first founding chapters.
No surprises here.
Both are Founding Legions.
One's known for their usage of stealth and ambush tactics and fields multiple Companies at a time in Phobos gear...and the other is Space Wolves.
The only real surprise here is that we're pretending it makes perfect sense. First we got the Raven Guard's new Chapter Master with no bodyguard unit unlike that second place chump Marneus Calgar and now Space Wolves just get a new Primaris unit thrown at them, rocking Phobos gear to match up with Ragnar in Phobos. Coolcoolcool.
GaroRobe wrote: So, what are we thinking the price of Outriders will be?
My gut is saying 55USD, given the price of the destroyers and every other release.
But I'm hoping it'll be like $35.
Almost certainly whatever the Skorpekhs are, so $55. ie, go buy whichever starter box instead.
If only those starter prices were like their Dark Imperium equivalents. I think the "cheapest" box with outsiders is $100.
Probably $55 for 3 models, or $99 for those 3 models, plus all the rest of it (another 24 models). I can't get around 3 models at $17 each, or 27 models at <$4 each, almost all of which are useful.
Even the SM commander should be an easy conversion to 'gravis captain with heavy rifle' when that multibox comes out. If you want one of those, that model will be ~$35ish alone.
Theory: GW is moving from Start Collecting boxes to Combat Patrols because Start Collecting boxes have actually really nice discounts sometimes and Combat Patrols will be barely discounted.
One's known for their usage of stealth and ambush tactics and fields multiple Companies at a time in Phobos gear...and the other is Space Wolves.
The only real surprise here is that we're pretending it makes perfect sense. First we got the Raven Guard's new Chapter Master with no bodyguard unit unlike that second place chump Marneus Calgar and now Space Wolves just get a new Primaris unit thrown at them, rocking Phobos gear to match up with Ragnar in Phobos. Coolcoolcool.
It does make perfect sense. One is a chapter that GW has made tons of money on for ~30 years, the other is an also-ran that happens to exist. This isn't a background argument- that isn't even relevant. This is how GW sells models.
The fact that you're pretending that the chapter master of the posterboy chapter for 20+ years is a 'second place chump' makes it difficult to take any argument you make seriously. (and I say that as someone with no use for special characters)
It may not be 'fair,' but its perfectly in line with GW's approach to selling models.
Honestly, they should have made a new upgrade sprue, strictly for the Hounds of Morkai. Wolf skull helmets would have been popular as hell. And it could be a good call back to the Horus Heresy unit, the Deathsworn.
One's known for their usage of stealth and ambush tactics and fields multiple Companies at a time in Phobos gear...and the other is Space Wolves.
Not like Space Wolves Scouts exists, the one company that uses ambush and stealth to stay hidden for years on a planet if needed until the Wolves strikes
with all Scouts now being the same, it makes more than perfect sense for Wolves to get the Elite Flair Ambush Primaris Scouts back
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Theory: GW is moving from Start Collecting boxes to Combat Patrols because Start Collecting boxes have actually really nice discounts sometimes and Combat Patrols will be barely discounted.
Quite possible. I have a hard time believing the SC boxes have been anything other than wildly successful but I still wouldn't put it past them. They don't mention any discount in this vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63K46bOGYp0&ab_channel=Warhammer , which is something you'd think they might do, but to be fair I went and checked a random current SC box (Craftworld) on the GW site and they don't seem to mention a discount in the description. It does say "Great value", but that could be seen as general marketing speak and it's nothing as explicit as "The stuff in this box is more expensive if you buy it all separately".
It does make perfect sense. One is a chapter that GW has made tons of money on for ~30 years, the other is an also-ran that happens to exist. This isn't a background argument- that isn't even relevant. This is how GW sells models.
It's 100% relevant. Shrike could have just been dropped entirely and nobody would have been the wiser, thanks to the previous Chapter Master being offed in the most patently idiotic manner imaginable.
But no. They upped him to Chapter Master status(which, BTW, makes him and Calgar the only two Primaris Chapter Masters currently available) but gave him zero bodyguard units unlike the stupid Ultrascrubs who they saw fit to give the dumb Honor Guard crap.
And now, Sphess Wolves get a fricking Phobos unit to accompany some character equivalent to a fricking Captain!
So no. It makes zero sense.
Raven Guard, as per usual, get screwed.
The fact that you're pretending that the chapter master of the posterboy chapter for 20+ years is a 'second place chump' makes it difficult to take any argument you make seriously. (and I say that as someone with no use for special characters)
Calgar is a second-place chump now. Guilliman's back. Calgar's just there still. Dude coulda died on the Primarisifying table and nobody would likely have batted an eyelash.
It may not be 'fair,' but its perfectly in line with GW's approach to selling models.
Fun fact: With Raven Guard not actually having a dedicated book, you can't actually make definitive statements like you have been. Not if you conveniently forget about garbage like the people who played 'counts as' CSM/Black Templar/whatever Sphess Wolves in previous editions.
My take on the new Wolves unit is that they've had to hastily shonk something together to go with the new book - but didn't have much production space to actually make a completely new unit. Or perhaps they thought the existing special Wolves units were enough, given they now have access to the rest of the (massive) Marine Codex as well as their pre-existing variants.
It could also be a replacement for previously-special Wolf Scouts. It's probably also a way to offload some of those Reiver kits that perhaps haven't been selling as well as hoped.
In any case - it strikes me as an "easy fix" for a Chapter that already has enough. I don't think Raven Guard players would be satisfied by being treated with a quick-fix approach, but I understand the annoyance as that's what they've already had, to date.
Not like Space Wolves Scouts exists, the one company that uses ambush and stealth to stay hidden for years on a planet if needed until the Wolves strikes
I highly suggest you look into how Shrike became a Captain to begin with, if this is your metric.
with all Scouts now being the same, it makes more than perfect sense for Wolves to get the Elite Flair Ambush Primaris Scouts back
It does make perfect sense. One is a chapter that GW has made tons of money on for ~30 years, the other is an also-ran that happens to exist. This isn't a background argument- that isn't even relevant. This is how GW sells models.
It's 100% relevant. Shrike could have just been dropped entirely and nobody would have been the wiser, thanks to the previous Chapter Master being offed in the most patently idiotic manner imaginable.
But no. They upped him to Chapter Master status(which, BTW, makes him and Calgar the only two Primaris Chapter Masters currently available) but gave him zero bodyguard units unlike the stupid Ultrascrubs who they saw fit to give the dumb Honor Guard crap.
And now, Sphess Wolves get a fricking Phobos unit to accompany some character equivalent to a fricking Captain!
JC. So do you want Shrike to have a bodyguard or not? Kind of hard to tell from this mad screed. The next logical question would be do you want total homogenization across all chapters, or just in this fringe case of dumb crap, but I don't even wanna go there tbh.
It does make perfect sense. One is a chapter that GW has made tons of money on for ~30 years, the other is an also-ran that happens to exist. This isn't a background argument- that isn't even relevant. This is how GW sells models.
It's 100% relevant. Shrike could have just been dropped entirely and nobody would have been the wiser, thanks to the previous Chapter Master being offed in the most patently idiotic manner imaginable.
But no. They upped him to Chapter Master status(which, BTW, makes him and Calgar the only two Primaris Chapter Masters currently available) but gave him zero bodyguard units unlike the stupid Ultrascrubs who they saw fit to give the dumb Honor Guard crap.
And now, Sphess Wolves get a fricking Phobos unit to accompany some character equivalent to a fricking Captain!
So no. It makes zero sense.
It makes perfect sense. There was never any chance that Raven Guard would be getting a unique unit, they would only ever go down that road if they were doing a unique unit for every first founding loyalist chapter which while possible in the future i still think would be very unlikely.
Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultramarines are the big 4 Chapters and will always get the overwhelming attention and support that the Space Marine line receives with Black Templars being the next in line for attention.
As others have pointed out this can be seen as a Primaris replacement for the Space Wolves specialist Wolf Scouts.
And that 'frickin' Captain is Ragnar Blackmane, basically the 'Main Character' of the Space Wolves and has been since 2nd edition before Logan Grimnar even had a model.
There was as much of a chance for Raven Guard to get a unique unit as there was for Ultramarines to get the only Honor Guard unit for a Chapter Master.
And no, it can't be seen "as a Primaris replacement for the Space Wolves specialist Wolf Scouts". Anyone who actually knows about the Wolf Scouts would understand why that statement falls flat on its face before ever stating it.
And that 'frickin' Captain is Ragnar Blackmane, basically the 'Main Character' of the Space Wolves and has been since 2nd edition before Logan Grimnar even had a model.
Only by virtue of having outdated fiction still lingering around. This is like saying that Gaunt is 'the main character' of the Imperial Guard.
Maybe this will be the one time Reivers don't blow ass. I would love for retroactive includes of unique Primaris units for each other Chapter though. That seems like something they could stick in a White Dwarf.
Kanluwen wrote: There was as much of a chance for Raven Guard to get a unique unit as there was for Ultramarines to get the only Honor Guard unit for a Chapter Master.
And no, it can't be seen "as a Primaris replacement for the Space Wolves specialist Wolf Scouts". Anyone who actually knows about the Wolf Scouts would understand why that statement falls flat on its face before ever stating it.
And that 'frickin' Captain is Ragnar Blackmane, basically the 'Main Character' of the Space Wolves and has been since 2nd edition before Logan Grimnar even had a model.
Only by virtue of having outdated fiction still lingering around. This is like saying that Gaunt is 'the main character' of the Imperial Guard.
Ultramarines have a precedent for getting Honor Guard, thay have had models for this in the past, they had a FAR greater chance of getting unique units than Raven Guard.
I've been collecting Space Wolves for about 20 years but feel free to enlighten me as im obviously missing something when it comes to Wolf Scouts.
Ragnar has always been the most important Character the Space Wolves have. He is their Dante/Calgar/Azrael, perhaps not in terms of rank but he is in terms of importance to the lore. He has also been a focal point of more recent background material and another novel that was released in December 2016.
Gaunt is a poor comparison, where are his models and rules? Ragnar is more akin to Dante/Calgar/Azrael and likely has more written about him than those 3 combined.
No I got it, you problem is that there is no new Raven Guard Supplement and you are pissed that the new Space Wolves Supplement get those toys which should be coming first in a Raven Guard Supplement and that SW get unique stuff but don't deserve it because those are RG exclusives
So I just tell you, wait for your new Supplement or a new Space Marines Codex, whatever comes first
don't see a big problem here, just accept that your Chapter has to wait, while all others get the stuff that you want
you can always play a different faction if GW does not make the one you play the way you like it (or play a different game instead)
I've been collecting Space Wolves for about 20 years but feel free to enlighten me as im obviously missing something.
Melta and plasma guns. That was the biggest, most unique thing that Wolf Scouts had in comparison to the others.
Ragnar has always been the most important Character the Space Wolves have. He is their Dante/Calgar/Azrael, perhaps not in terms of rank but he is in terms of importance to the lore. He has also been a focal point of more recent background material and another novel that was released in December 2016.
Gaunt is a poor comparison, where are his models and rules? Ragnar is more akin to Dante/Calgar/Azrael and likely has more written about him than those 3 combined.
Thanks for actually proving my point. People love to use Gaunt or Cain as 'exemplars' of the Guard...yet neither have rules or models available right now. Gaunt had rules & a model in the Doctrines book, but since then? Nada. There's a huge difference between "this character has a lot written about them" and "this character is actually extremely important to the lore".
Ragnar is less akin to Dante or Calgar or Azrael and more akin to Uriel Ventris: a Captain with unbelievably strong plot armor.
No I got it, you problem is that there is no new Raven Guard Supplement and you are pissed that the new Space Wolves Supplement get those toys which should be coming first in a Raven Guard Supplement and that SW get unique stuff but don't deserve it because those are RG exclusives
So I just tell you, wait for your new Supplement or a new Space Marines Codex, whatever comes first
don't see a big problem here, just accept that your Chapter has to wait, while all others get the stuff that you want
you can always play a different faction if GW does not make the one you play the way you like it (or play a different game instead)
Since yes, you did miss the point:
I'm pissed that GW didn't do the correct thing and spend some time on those supplements that are now outshone by sheer afterthoughts thanks to the setup for the new stuff. Deathwatch get new Kill Teams, Wolves get a new unit. DA and BA will probably get new units too.
The First Founding Chapters got...well, a new character? Unless you're Ultras, in which case you got three(Guilliman, Tigurius, and Calgar Primicus with Bodyguard) since the runup to 8th launched.
Thanks for actually proving my point. People love to use Gaunt or Cain as 'exemplars' of the Guard...yet neither have rules or models available right now. Gaunt had rules & a model in the Doctrines book, but since then? Nada.
So why did you bring Gaunt up as analogous to Ragnar in terms of importance, when Ragnar has had rules and a model in every incarnation of the game since the second edition? This doesn't prove your point in the slightest. You're flailing badly here.
I'm pissed that GW didn't do the correct thing and spend some time on those supplements that are now outshone by sheer afterthoughts thanks to the setup for the new stuff. Deathwatch get new Kill Teams, Wolves get a new unit. DA and BA will probably get new units too.
The First Founding Chapters got...well, a new character? Unless you're Ultras, in which case you got three(Guilliman, Tigurius, and Calgar Primicus with Bodyguard) since the runup to 8th launched.
and this is different from anything that GW has done since end of 4th?
I don't get it, GW has done what they always do and at no point there was any hint that it will be different this time
if you are now pissed how GW writes Marines, it must be you first Marine Codex update
It's Kan just being Kan, kinda like him saying adamantly that DW would not get Phobos kill teams...uh-huh.
SW had elite scouts for the longest time, therefore if any army is going to get an elite Reiver unit...it would be Space Wolves, not Raven Guard.
Would I like a Phobos jump unit to accompany Shrike as a bodyguard? Sure, but there is no kit for that, just as there is no new Reiver kit for the Wolves. Besides, assault intercessors with JPs and claws work great as a VanVet guard for Shrike.
Ragnar is less akin to Dante or Calgar or Azrael and more akin to Uriel Ventris: a Captain with unbelievably strong plot armor.
You are missing part of the point. Ragnar has always had rules and a model as well. He is far closer to the former and not the latter in your statement.
As for that SW Combat Patrol. Why are they trying to foist Reivers off on us again? What garbage. Hard pass in my opinion. Intercessors are good troops. But Assault Intercessors would have been more in line with SW. The Warsuit is a pass for me, but I can see where some people might like it. Seems like a garbage, hey what do we need to get rid of because no one buys it anymore, box set.
Tonight on Dakka, guy is angry that Space Wolves have better upkeep than Raven Guard. Next week on Dakka he's gonna find out that Blood Angels will definitely absolutely certainly be getting more screen time than Salamanders, be sure not to miss the fireworks
SW had elite scouts for the longest time, therefore if any army is going to get an elite Reiver unit...it would be Space Wolves, not Raven Guard.
Would I like a Phobos jump unit to accompany Shrike as a bodyguard? Sure, but there is no kit for that, just as there is no new Reiver kit for the Wolves. Besides, assault intercessors with JPs and claws work great as a VanVet guard for Shrike.
Codex Supplement: Space Wolves includes the rules for a brand-new unit, the Hounds of Morkai, who are also getting a multipart plastic kit. This is a dedicated psyker-hunting pack equipped with runic totems to protect them from evil magicks before they close in and slay the witch.
Sorry, what was it you were saying?
Did the kit exist before? No? Did the unit exist before? No?
Melta and plasma guns. That was the biggest, most unique thing that Wolf Scouts had in comparison to the others.
From a gameplay perspective perhaps, from a background perspective it's the fact that Chapter Scouts are recruits whereas Wolf Scouts are vets. If they were to be represented in a Primaris style unit i would expect them to be in Phobos armour; hence why i can see this as some form of replacement to them.
Kanluwen wrote: Thanks for actually proving my point. People love to use Gaunt or Cain as 'exemplars' of the Guard...yet neither have rules or models available right now. Gaunt had rules & a model in the Doctrines book, but since then? Nada. There's a huge difference between "this character has a lot written about them" and "this character is actually extremely important to the lore".
Ragnar is less akin to Dante or Calgar or Azrael and more akin to Uriel Ventris: a Captain with unbelievably strong plot armor.
You think Ragnar is more akin to Ventris? Remind me, when was the last time Ventris had rules?
Like it or not Ragnar is the 'main character' of the Space Wolves and always has been. He has featured in every Codex release since 2nd edition as well as having numerous novels and short stories about him. He was the one who had model representation at the same time as Dante, Calgar and Azrael when Grimnar was no more than a sketch next to a paragraph of text. The only character that would dislodge Ragnar from that position would be Leman Russ who i hope we don't see returning because i think it would diminish the other Space Wolves place in the lore, just like Gulliman has done with Calgar.
Melta and plasma guns. That was the biggest, most unique thing that Wolf Scouts had in comparison to the others.
From a gameplay perspective perhaps, from a background perspective it's the fact that Chapter Scouts are recruits whereas Wolf Scouts are vets. If they were to be represented in a Primaris style unit i would expect them to be in Phobos armour; hence why i can see this as some form of replacement to them.
Raven Guard, Dark Angels, Raven Guard Successors all featured 'veteran scouts' as well--they just didn't have rules because reasons.
Kanluwen wrote: Thanks for actually proving my point. People love to use Gaunt or Cain as 'exemplars' of the Guard...yet neither have rules or models available right now. Gaunt had rules & a model in the Doctrines book, but since then? Nada. There's a huge difference between "this character has a lot written about them" and "this character is actually extremely important to the lore".
Ragnar is less akin to Dante or Calgar or Azrael and more akin to Uriel Ventris: a Captain with unbelievably strong plot armor.
You think Ragnar is more akin to Ventris? Remind me, when was the last time Ventris had rules? Like it or not Ragnar is the 'main character' of the Space Wolves and always has been. He has featured in every Codex release since 2nd edition as well as having numerous novels and short stories about him. He was the one who had model representation at the same time as Dante, Calgar and Azrael when Grimnar was no more than a sketch next to a paragraph of text. The only character that would dislodge Ragnar from that position would be Leman Russ who i hope we don't see returning because i think it would diminish the other Space Wolves place in the lore.
Who the hell cares about him having rules? YOU brought up the fluff perspective to start with.
Ragnar has always been the most important Character the Space Wolves have. He is their Dante/Calgar/Azrael, perhaps not in terms of rank but he is in terms of importance to the lore. He has also been a focal point of more recent background material and another novel that was released in December 2016.
That is literally why I responded the way that I did. YOU brought up his importance to the lore. That is why I chose MY response to be couched the way I did, explicitly using a character(Ibram Gaunt) that is touted as 'important to the lore' by people yet has no model or rules and has not for years.
Importance to the lore does not mean diddly equating to the actual game.
Kanluwen wrote: Only by virtue of having outdated fiction still lingering around. This is like saying that Gaunt is 'the main character' of the Imperial Guard.
Says someone pushing also-ran, has been faction getting so much love that chapter master got offed off screen in dumbest trap possible (then Shrike got the title just because he had model, in lazy retcon peeing all over the SM fluff stating such low ranking captain would never get the nod over 1st or 2nd company captains, dwarfing him in prestige and experience) as important. Claiming RG are anywhere near in importance to Gaunt and should get their own super special units is like saying these third grade Cadians deserve no mention in Codex IG and the lead faction should be SUPER IMPORTANT Kanak Skull Takers regiment with array of unique super heavy tanks...
Melta and plasma guns. That was the biggest, most unique thing that Wolf Scouts had in comparison to the others.
And multiple power weapons per squad sir. And Outflank sir. SW Scouts used to be badass.
Must have been nice to actually have a frigging unit that's supposed to be emblematic of your Chapter that does something.
Wouldn't know unfortunately, because apparently it's too frigging hard to come up with them when you name a fricking sniper rifle after the new Chapter Master and then give him melee weapons and a jump pack.
Who the hell cares about him having rules? YOU brought up the fluff perspective to start with.
He said that Ragnar is very important in the lore. You said that was like saying Gaunt is quintessential Guard. Then he said Gaunt doesn't even have rules, and you replied that this is very important, crucial in fact, and proves your non-point (even though it actually does the opposite).
SW had elite scouts for the longest time, therefore if any army is going to get an elite Reiver unit...it would be Space Wolves, not Raven Guard.
Would I like a Phobos jump unit to accompany Shrike as a bodyguard? Sure, but there is no kit for that, just as there is no new Reiver kit for the Wolves. Besides, assault intercessors with JPs and claws work great as a VanVet guard for Shrike.
Codex Supplement: Space Wolves includes the rules for a brand-new unit, the Hounds of Morkai, who are also getting a multipart plastic kit. This is a dedicated psyker-hunting pack equipped with runic totems to protect them from evil magicks before they close in and slay the witch.
Sorry, what was it you were saying?
Did the kit exist before? No? Did the unit exist before? No?
hate to burst your fragile bubble, but that boxset is just reivers and an upgrade sprue...not a new kit, these models already exist. If there was a Phobos jump unit in existence, then Raven Guard could have got a new bodyguard unit for shrike....but that doesn't exist.
Wouldn't know unfortunately, because apparently it's too frigging hard to come up with them when you name a fricking sniper rifle after the new Chapter Master and then give him melee weapons and a jump pack.
But the Shrike pattern Sniper Rifle was named after Tech-Magus Erzimiah Shrike. Who in the 38th Millennium invented it and gifted it to the Raven Guard. (No I don't know the fluff of the Shrike Rifle, I'm just making fun of GW's naming convention for many items. Arkham Land designed the Land Raider and Land Speeder, etc).
Must have been nice to actually have a frigging unit that's supposed to be emblematic of your Chapter that does something.
The scouts were not emblematic of SW. All of the SW units were, before the 5th edition Flanderization.
Importance to the lore does not mean diddly equating to the actual game.
This thing is 80% models and 20% fluff. The remainder is rules. That's approximately how much the rules are worth. I know you agree, since you're squealing all up and down this thread about Fluff travesties connected to your chosen faction. Something about a Chapter Master dying? And a rifle named after some guy? A bunch of other stuff. They seem to be fluff concerns. Your cognitive dissonance is reaching critical levels.
Raven Guard, Dark Angels, Raven Guard Successors all featured 'veteran scouts' as well--they just didn't have rules because reasons.
Raven Guard to my knowledge has had practically no special units in the past. What made you think this would change now? Dark Angels on the other hand already have a plethora of specialist units so im not surprised to see them not get any special Scouts. Whereas Wolf Scouts have been a thing since 3rd edition (20 years ago). If anybody was going to get a Phobos specialist unit the Space Wolves were a strong contender and in fact potentially the only contender given Raven Guard, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands and White Scars have generally never received any special treatment like the big 4 Chapters have.
Raven Guard are simply one of the 'other' Chapters and if you are honestly expecting them to receive unique units like the 4 main Chapters then i think you are only setting yourself up for disappointment.
Who the hell cares about him having rules? YOU brought up the fluff perspective to start with.
The players do. Cain isn't the most prominent Commisar from when we think about 40k, Yarrick is. Not everyone reads the Ventris novels and most Ultramarines even among those that do (pre Gulliman) would still name Calgar as their more prominent character, likewise Blood Angels would name Dante and Dark Angels would name Azrael (or Cypher). Space Wolves would not name Grimnar. They would name Ragnar as the most prominent character.
Kanluwen wrote: Cool, so what unit was the Ultramarines Honor Guard based off of for Primaris?"
Sorry, i must confess i have not purchased the new Space Marine Codex. Do Ultramarines have another unique Honour Guard Unit? If so that's not unexpected, they've had them in the past afterall:
Though i'm guessing these guys were what partly inspired the creation of the Bladeguard Vets.
Melta and plasma guns. That was the biggest, most unique thing that Wolf Scouts had in comparison to the others.
And multiple power weapons per squad sir. And Outflank sir. SW Scouts used to be badass.
Must have been nice to actually have a frigging unit that's supposed to be emblematic of your Chapter that does something.
Wouldn't know unfortunately, because apparently it's too frigging hard to come up with them when you name a fricking sniper rifle after the new Chapter Master and then give him melee weapons and a jump pack.
Kan, please calm down and stop wailing. Come back when chaos have drop pods, ynnari actually have a range for their 3 model army and heretics & renegades are un-squatted.
Marines have more than enough toys, raven guard don't need special treatment beyond what they have and whilst wolves don't either, they're sure as hell back of the bus for needing new crap.
Watching Kan lose his mind because a Chapter he doesn't play got something is amusing. As is his insistence that Ragnar ain't no thang.
Ragnar's one of the oldest characters in the game. Of course he's important.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Theory: GW is moving from Start Collecting boxes to Combat Patrols because Start Collecting boxes have actually really nice discounts sometimes and Combat Patrols will be barely discounted.
Sounds about right to me.
Ghaz wrote: Other posters on Dakka have received the recut kit without the green rods, and that is the kit used for Lokhust Destroyers and is even pictured with the datasheet in the new codex (there is no 'Necron Destroyer' or 'Destroyer' datasheets in the new codex).
Try reading. The comment I replied to said that there's no Phobos jump unit for them to have been based off of.
DivineVisitor wrote:The players do. Cain isn't the most prominent Commisar from when we think about 40k, Yarrick is.
Go on social media and ask that question. Can basically guarantee that Cain and Gaunt will be just as heavily mentioned as Yarrick.
Not everyone reads the Ventris novels and most Ultramarines even among those that do (pre Gulliman) would still name Calgar as their more prominent character
Yeah, more likely it would have been Sicarius.
likewise Blood Angels would name Dante
Or Mephiston. Or Lemartes.
and Dark Angels would name Azrael (or Cypher).
Ezekiel or Asmodai are just as likely to crop up. Or Belial. Or Sammael.
Space Wolves would not name Grimnar. They would name Ragnar as the most prominent character.
Or Bjorn. Or Lukas the Trickster.
Sorry, i must confess i have not purchased the new Space Marine Codex. Do Ultramarines have another unique Honour Guard Unit? If so that's not unexpected, they've had them in the past afterall:
Everyone had them in the past at one point. The unit did not start out as Ultramarines only, but rather only Ultramarines had models for them.
Once again though, try reading. Bullyboy's comment:
If there was a Phobos jump unit in existence, then Raven Guard could have got a new bodyguard unit for shrike....but that doesn't exist.
Upon the release of Marneus Calgar and his two bodyguards? We had zero Power Sword and Shield wielding Primaris. Those two models were literally made to accompany Calgar only.
Yet for some reason it's "unacceptable" to have expected similar treatment for the only other fricking Chapter Master to get a new model in recent memory?
Ventris was a bit of a unique situation, being he was Graham McNeil's pet character and when he wrote the 4th Ed. Marines Codex, he basically turned it into the Ventris / Ultramarine-Codex with all unit depictions bearing Ultramarine symbols, basically all little quotes and anecdotes in the boxes being Ventris, etc.., etc..
Not sure it ever was an "organically" super-popular character, more a BL-author-turned-codex-author going a bit overboard with the Ultramarine hype and self-promotion.
Contrary to popular perception, the 5th Ed. Marines Codex actually turned down the Ultramarine focus quite a bit and added a lot more meat to things like Salamanders, Raven Guard, etc..,
I guess it might be the same if, say, Abnett wrote a Guard Codex (and had the impulse to shamelessly plug his Gaunt novels on every page to boost sales of his previous work). You'd get a similar product.
Questionable list there. Lukas the Trickster is prominent, but Ragnar is bordering on obscure. Sure.
It's like you're just spoiling for a fight.
Nowhere have I said Ragnar is "obscure". People have different characters that stick out to them. If you asked me about Ultramarines, Telion would be the foremost character to me--while Sergeant Naaman would be the standout Dark Angel.
It's funny though that apparently it's super, super demandy to have wanted something special for Raven Guard yet Wolf players are complaining that they didn't get a "new kit" while they did get a new unit.
Kanluwen wrote: Go on social media and ask that question. Can basically guarantee that Cain and Gaunt will be just as heavily mentioned as Yarrick.
Doubtful. It would be relying on those who have read their books, ask 100 40k players to name a Commissar off the cuff and Yarrick is going to be the number one pick. I know players who don't even know who Gaunt or Cain are but they all know who Yarrick is.
Kanluwen wrote: Yeah, more likely it would have been Sicarius.
Bjorn you could almost make an argument for but he is still not as storied or as represented as much as Ragnar has been. But Lukas... Lukas? Get off the Koolaid.
Kanluwen wrote: Upon the release of Marneus Calgar and his two bodyguards? We had zero Power Sword and Shield wielding Primaris. Those two models were literally made to accompany Calgar only.
Yet for some reason it's "unacceptable" to have expected similar treatment for the only other fricking Chapter Master to get a new model in recent memory?
Yes, because quite frankly; the Raven Guard are a footnote. They are not one of the main Chapters that get blessed with unique unit releases, the best they can expect is a character thrown their way every now and then like some sort of consolation prize. That is their lot in life and always has been. Will it change in the future? Possibly, but they will never receive the kind of attention that is lavished on the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. It is simply never going to happen.
P.s. Don't feel bad, despite being some "fricking Captain"; Ragnar is more prominent than most Chapter Masters, Shrike included. He is also the defacto Chapter Champion of the Space Wolves. The Thor to Logan's Odin.
Once again though, try reading. Bullyboy's comment:
If there was a Phobos jump unit in existence, then Raven Guard could have got a new bodyguard unit for shrike....but that doesn't exist.
Upon the release of Marneus Calgar and his two bodyguards? We had zero Power Sword and Shield wielding Primaris. Those two models were literally made to accompany Calgar only.
Yet for some reason it's "unacceptable" to have expected similar treatment for the only other fricking Chapter Master to get a new model in recent memory?
No, you were pissed that SW got a new "unit" even though Raven Guard didn't get one. The counterpoint being presented is that the unit maybe new, but it's not a new kit produced for the SW...it already exists and is just getting a new package. It has been shown why Wolves instead of Guard got this new unit, but you are still pissed. Phobos JP troops would have to be an entirely new kit, one does not currently exist. You can use vanvets to make a bodyguard now if you want, but don't get upset about Wolves getting a new unit when it's really just a Primaris replacement for their old unique scout unit (which is pretty much the same as every codex one now).
By all means get pissed about a unique Ultra bodyguard unit, but this SW hill you chose to die on seems odd indeed.
Questionable list there. Lukas the Trickster is prominent, but Ragnar is bordering on obscure. Sure.
It's like you're just spoiling for a fight.
Maybe. But you seem to be unusually whiny and antagonistic in this thread, and also quite wrong, and I'm apparently feeling contentious too, leading to this
Nowhere have I said Ragnar is "obscure".
Hyperbole from me.
It's funny though that apparently it's super, super demandy to have wanted something special for Raven Guard yet Wolf players are complaining that they didn't get a "new kit" while they did get a new unit.
The SW complaints are in the mode of "I find that very lame" though, whereas your posts since this article dropped have been leaning more towards "feth GW and feth every marine that's not Ravenguard and honestly JUST feth THEM"
lord_blackfang wrote: I see Reivers were such a massive success that we are now getting variant versions taking up shelf space!
Combat Patrol just sounds like a sneaky way to raise prices on Start Collecting again.
The optimist might say that Combat Patrols sound like a sneaky way to offer a legal detachment now.
Space Wolf fans complaining about the new unit are really bumming us all out. You guys get what everyone wants and you can't even be happy about it. Sound more like whining terriers than wolves.
Once again though, try reading. Bullyboy's comment:
If there was a Phobos jump unit in existence, then Raven Guard could have got a new bodyguard unit for shrike....but that doesn't exist.
Upon the release of Marneus Calgar and his two bodyguards? We had zero Power Sword and Shield wielding Primaris. Those two models were literally made to accompany Calgar only.
Yet for some reason it's "unacceptable" to have expected similar treatment for the only other fricking Chapter Master to get a new model in recent memory?
No, you were pissed that SW got a new "unit" even though Raven Guard didn't get one. The counterpoint being presented is that the unit maybe new, but it's not a new kit produced for the SW...it already exists and is just getting a new package. It has been shown why Wolves instead of Guard got this new unit, but you are still pissed. Phobos JP troops would have to be an entirely new kit, one does not currently exist. You can use vanvets to make a bodyguard now if you want, but don't get upset about Wolves getting a new unit when it's really just a Primaris replacement for their old unique scout unit (which is pretty much the same as every codex one now).
By all means get pissed about a unique Ultra bodyguard unit, but this SW hill you chose to die on seems odd indeed.
Because as you mentioned it's not a new kit produced for the SW. It is a new unit however, which is the point that seemingly is getting ignored.
Again though, Phobos JP troops don't have to exist in order for them to have been released as a bodyguard for Shrike. Why? Because they would have been in the box with him just like Calgar got his bodyguard unit in the box with him.
I'm kinda livid right now in that frigging Space Wolves are getting a Phobos specialty unit before frigging Raven Guard do.
Also Forge World Compendium, Outriders, Ghazghkull and Ragnar all are coming out too. New "Combat Patrol" boxes too.
So am I allowed to talk about the Compendium now Kan?
You don't need my permission to do so. It just got irritating that every preview weekend we had going, you would inevitably be clamoring over the lack of news for it. We knew it was coming. We never had a firm date for it, just "it's coming!".
It does make me wonder what happened to the full on books that they previewed last year though.
If it makes you feel any better, I'm all ranted out now about the Phobos thing. It's just extremely irritating that they talk and talk and talk it up in the Raven Guard book and now Space Wolves get the first 'named' Space Wolf unit? It's like the first named Harlequin unit being a Sisters of Battle unit--bizarre.
Space Wolf fans complaining about the new unit are really bumming us all out. You guys get what everyone wants and you can't even be happy about it. Sound more like whining terriers than wolves.
The only one complaining is Kan about Raven Guard not getting this 'new' unit. SW players are just saying its Reivers with the SW Primaris Upgrade sprue, nothing to get excited about one way or the other. If the new unit stats come out and they completely suck, or are completely OP then its time to complain. Complaining about GW trying to stick SW players with their obviously over manufactured Reiver kits is pretty dumb.
I guess we are going to see more rant if the Wolves get their old Behind Enemy Lines back and make Primaries their prime Ambush unit (well question is if we see Primaris Sky-Claws)
So we can expect a price increase. With how good were SC! to get soooo many people in the game. From 65€ to 80€ and now I'll be suprised if this boxes cost less than 100€
Galas wrote: So we can expect a price increase. With how good were SC! to get soooo many people in the game. From 65€ to 80€ and now I'll be suprised if this boxes cost less than 100€
Spoiler:
I believe in the integrity of Games Workshop.
To their shareholders.
regarding rhe hounds I am... holding my tongue on them my HOPE is that there guys will have some sort of psyker protection aura. if so there'll at least be a niche for em, put em with carbines and use em to protect important stuff
Space Wolf fans complaining about the new unit are really bumming us all out. You guys get what everyone wants and you can't even be happy about it. Sound more like whining terriers than wolves.
The only one complaining is Kan about Raven Guard not getting this 'new' unit. SW players are just saying its Reivers with the SW Primaris Upgrade sprue, nothing to get excited about one way or the other. If the new unit stats come out and they completely suck, or are completely OP then its time to complain. Complaining about GW trying to stick SW players with their obviously over manufactured Reiver kits is pretty dumb.
Yeah, no. My complaint is that in an already packed supplement, they made an effort to add a 'new' Primaris unit...yet no such effort was made for the supplements that basically consist of a single character and relics.
Welp, I need 6 Blood Angels Start Collecting for my 30K BA. I better get on that quick before its gone forever, like real quick since BA are next yes? I despise this company sometimes.
Oh! Guess whats been out of stock for like three weeks!
I’m curious if the blood angels will get a new unit entry in their supplement or if Primaris DC are theirs.
And I wonder if they’ll try and give us Reivers in our new Combat Patrol box. I will certainly miss Start Collecting! boxes and their awesome value. It’s a shame they feel the need to up the prices again on everything, I really want to enjoy 40K but they just keep making it harder.
I mean, no stand alone, cheap PDF for codexes anymore, and now Start Collecting!s are getting changed to a more expensive alternative, just to make sure new players don’t have any cheap way of getting in anymore.
Anyway, I don’t mean to be a downer, those new SW dice look nice, I hope BAngels get some new ones too.
Space Wolf fans complaining about the new unit are really bumming us all out. You guys get what everyone wants and you can't even be happy about it. Sound more like whining terriers than wolves.
The only one complaining is Kan about Raven Guard not getting this 'new' unit. SW players are just saying its Reivers with the SW Primaris Upgrade sprue, nothing to get excited about one way or the other. If the new unit stats come out and they completely suck, or are completely OP then its time to complain. Complaining about GW trying to stick SW players with their obviously over manufactured Reiver kits is pretty dumb.
Yeah, no. My complaint is that in an already packed supplement, they made an effort to add a 'new' Primaris unit...yet no such effort was made for the supplements that basically consist of a single character and relics.
But Ravenguard don't exactly need super Reivers, they fit better for the Wolves as the primaris replacement for thier elite scouts. RG "need" a phobos jump unit with claws as a bodyguard for Shrike. Since GW deemed not to make that kit right now (if ever), why settle for a lesser specific "unit"? Now, when they do get around to doing jump assault troops for Primaris, it will be a perfect time to add these for ravenguard. However, I would not expect them to be Phobos.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So am I allowed to talk about the Compendium now Kan?
No this thread's about why Raven Guard aren't getting attention.
Eh, I can understand his frustration. It's like if they made a character who was "The Lord of the Raptors" and he was Black Legion instead of Night Lords.
Anyway, think they'll do any previews for the rules in the Compendium this week? Just giving Dreadclaws and the Kharibdis the loyalist drop pod rules would probably have csm players clamoring for the book.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Anyway, think they'll do any previews for the rules in the Compendium this week? Just giving Dreadclaws and the Kharibdis the loyalist drop pod rules would probably have csm players clamoring for the book.
Maybe they'll give us a big downloadable "Legends" document for all the things that didn't make the cut.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Anyway, think they'll do any previews for the rules in the Compendium this week? Just giving Dreadclaws and the Kharibdis the loyalist drop pod rules would probably have csm players clamoring for the book.
Maybe they'll give us a big downloadable "Legends" document for all the things that didn't make the cut.
That would be nice. Especially if they fixed some of the R&H stuff in it.
bullyboy wrote: It's Kan just being Kan, kinda like him saying adamantly that DW would not get Phobos kill teams...uh-huh.
SW had elite scouts for the longest time, therefore if any army is going to get an elite Reiver unit...it would be Space Wolves, not Raven Guard.
Would I like a Phobos jump unit to accompany Shrike as a bodyguard? Sure, but there is no kit for that, just as there is no new Reiver kit for the Wolves. Besides, assault intercessors with JPs and claws work great as a VanVet guard for Shrike.
The problem with Wolf Scouts is they really weren't elite units. They simply changed how their Infiltrate worked and they got some Special Weapons. They didn't have Vet stats for Pete's sake.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So am I allowed to talk about the Compendium now Kan?
No this thread's about why Raven Guard aren't getting attention.
Eh, I can understand his frustration. It's like if they made a character who was "The Lord of the Raptors" and he was Black Legion instead of Night Lords.
Anyway, think they'll do any previews for the rules in the Compendium this week? Just giving Dreadclaws and the Kharibdis the loyalist drop pod rules would probably have csm players clamoring for the book.
The real frustration with that stupid Raptor character was that he couldn't even use his fething stupid Spear in fething melee for a fething multi damage weapon because feth GW.
bullyboy wrote: It's Kan just being Kan, kinda like him saying adamantly that DW would not get Phobos kill teams...uh-huh.
SW had elite scouts for the longest time, therefore if any army is going to get an elite Reiver unit...it would be Space Wolves, not Raven Guard.
Would I like a Phobos jump unit to accompany Shrike as a bodyguard? Sure, but there is no kit for that, just as there is no new Reiver kit for the Wolves. Besides, assault intercessors with JPs and claws work great as a VanVet guard for Shrike.
The problem with Wolf Scouts is they really weren't elite units. They simply changed how their Infiltrate worked and they got some Special Weapons. They didn't have Vet stats for Pete's sake.
But they were different to any other scout unit in marine armies and occupied the Elite slot. It's obvious that this new unit is the primaris equivalent of that classic, even if it functions differently.
It's not my job to say whether or not it was necessary, but it certainly fits better than a specific reiver unit for Raven Guard.
So the Imperial Armour Compendium is listed as "New From Forge World". Does that mean it'll only be available from fw? So even though the main studio rules team wrote it, it still won't be available at gw stores and flgs?
HEY! They use bolt weapons and that's our bread and butter...yeah...it was bullcrap.
Honestly, like I said earlier, I would like to see unique units for all of the Chapters based around a particular unit. Perhaps give Imperial Fists Aggressors can get the ability to advance without penalty back (or the double shoot when stationary ability, but that is unlikely). The maybe White Scars can have a special Outrider unit. I don't know. I would like to see this applied to everyone.
Kanluwen wrote: If it makes you feel any better, I'm all ranted out now about the Phobos thing. It's just extremely irritating that they talk and talk and talk it up in the Raven Guard book and now Space Wolves get the first 'named' Space Wolf unit? It's like the first named Harlequin unit being a Sisters of Battle unit--bizarre.
...why is it bizarre for Space Wolves to get the first named Space Wolf unit, again?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The problem with Wolf Scouts is they really weren't elite units. They simply changed how their Infiltrate worked and they got some Special Weapons. They didn't have Vet stats for Pete's sake.
They may not have had Veteran stats, but at the various points Scouts had sub-marine (not submarine, though that would be amusing) stat lines, Wolf Scouts did at least have the same stat line as full Marines.
CMLR wrote: So, are the new Combat Patrols permanent additions to the range? If that's the case, I'm pumped up. I can never get enough Wolves.
I believe someone on the previous page had a screenshot from GW Facebook indicating this would be the case, as a replacement for the current Start Collecting boxes.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So the Imperial Armour Compendium is listed as "New From Forge World". Does that mean it'll only be available from fw? So even though the main studio rules team wrote it, it still won't be available at gw stores and flgs?
Well at least this was written by the gw rules team, so good or bad, it should finally shut up all of that "Gw didn't write these rules" crap. Hope they show us some previews.
Hey folks, just went through a load of alerts generated in this thread and I would kindly ask one and all to stay on topic and to be excellent to one another, because rule #1 is not optional.
Well at least this was written by the gw rules team, so good or bad, it should finally shut up all of that "Gw didn't write these rules" crap. Hope they show us some previews.
And if fw had written them...well they would have been told of weapon changes likely when book was already printed and done. Gw studio doesn't share info to fw
New Deathwatch Combat Patrol £85
Intercessors £35
Aggressors £30
Apothecary £22.50
Lieutenant £20
2x Upgrade Sprues? £18 (Maybe a new upgrade sprue as there isn't a "Primaris" upgrade pack and there are only 2 Terminator/Aggressor shoulder pads on the old one)
Total £125.5
Savings £40.5
Old Deathwatch SC: £60
Artemis £17.50
2 Kill Teams £50
Venerable Dreadnaught £35
Upgrade Sprue £9
Total £111.50
Savings £51.50
New Space Wolves Combat Patrol £85
Invictor £37.50
Intercessors £35
1/2 Reivers £17.50
SW Battle Leader £20? (Expect him to be the same as other Lieutenants)
2x Upgrade Sprues £18 (the Reivers only got transfers as far as I can see)
Total £128
Savings £43
Old Primaris SWSC £60
Intercessors £35
Aggressors £30
SW Battle Leader £20? (Expect him to be the same as other Lieutenants)
2x Upgrade Sprues £18
Total £103
Savings £43
So the Deathwatch have a new savings of 32% to the old one of 46%
and Space Wolves have a new savings of 33.5% to the old one of 41%
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the Hounds of Morkai costs 35€ but 5 Reivers and an upgrade sprue only costs 31€ so maybe there is more to this kit than we know
85 for Combat Patrol is rather steep even if there are savings. Feels like it would be prudent to buy the old Start Collectings while they last. Was kinda hoping Combat Patrol would stick around the 60-65 pound mark.
They're really pushing what's affordable in a starting box aren't they?
I was considering the DW one because it's got some great units in there and there's the potential to flog the upgrade sprues but I am not feeling the price.
They appear to be offering a smaller size game to allow people to get started cheaper into the hobby - ergo the Combat Patrol. At the same time they are then increasing the Getting Started packs to £85 which is a big cost. Instead of the old £50 or the grumbled £60 brackets they are pushing for £85.
The two policies seem totally at odds to each other. I can understand it at pitching them to people already in GW's hobby bubble because then they are just starting a second army or third or whatever so a higher sticker price shouldn't be a barrier. But for new people with 0 models it seems rather daft to be pushing the starting price for the hobby up.
Esp when you consider that GW tools are not cheap. That £50 getting started set easily ends up over £100 once you add codex, paints. clippers and such. So pushing that price another £25 higher seems odd. I could get behind it if they slashed their accessory prices (I consider £21 for a pair of clippers to be nuts).
It does seem that GW is slipping back into some rather less than desirable old habits even when they are trying to offer discount on bundled goods.
Yet at the same time the new Warcy sets are far cheaper and aimed at exactly the same market segment of new gamers.
They made a bigger box with worse savings when It should had been the contrary. And the deathwatch one has 2 overpriced primaris characters inflating the price
The truth is,no Matter because they are gonna sell this like hotcakes, but asking a new player 2 years ago for 65€ to start playing was something. But to ask basically the double now? GW has started full greeddy Mode again. A shame.
The new price means you won't be buying them unless you intend to fully commit to the army. I liked to buy the SC as they often had good units for a nice price that you could impulse buy. The new CP boxes are too expensive for potential impulse buys in my opinion.
With the new pricing we've been seeing I am dreading to see the price on the Christmas Battleforce boxes.
I'll say this though. If the new Start Collecting Deathguard will be 85 pounds and only contain what was in the Dark Imperium box they will be charging more for that part of Death Guard than they did in the entire run of Dark Imperium. For 85 pounds CPDG better have the full kits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galas wrote: They made a bigger box with worse savings when It should had been the contrary. And the deathwatch one has 2 overpriced primaris characters inflating the price
The truth is,no Matter because they are gonna sell this like hotcakes, but asking a new player 2 years ago for 65€ to start playing was something. But to ask basically the double now? GW has started full greeddy Mode again. A shame.
I agree. The worst part is that with the new boxes, especially DW, you won't have much reason to buy more than one as all the savings are caught up in those characters you rarely, if ever, need duplicates of.
tneva82 wrote: Well gamers are to blame for buying into nuGW hype. There was never nuGW. Just same one except more adept at smoke screens
Well it was still having a tangible effect on prices, so it wasn’t exactly just smoke screens. Game starters that were great value, start collecting sets etc. Between £120 not-even-that-big giants, a %25 price increase for a Warcry starter with less contents and now swapping start collecting sets for these with a ~£25 price increase, even the good deals aren’t fthat good anymore.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm kinda livid right now in that frigging Space Wolves are getting a Phobos specialty unit before frigging Raven Guard do.
Poor Raven Guards . They have so few options! Barely any datasheet to choose from. Real sad.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: GW can't even be bothered to make a new upgrade sprue lmao
Ahah GW can't event be bothered to remake the, what, one year old kit for marines!
*look at eldar aspect warriors*
Not redoing that upgrade sprue is so low effort really!
ImAGeek wrote: I’m almost impressed with how much of my personal Games Workshop good will they’ve managed to erode in the space of a few weeks.
Same here if I am to be honest. I've been currently eyeing Star Wars Legion due to the price increases at GW.
I am surprised to say that this has happened to me too. I know GW's pricing is generally par for the course, but they've been shocking recently. Especially after picking up the deal that was Indomitus, I was looking forward to more of the same but the new prices are a shocker.
Same here if I am to be honest. I've been currently eyeing Star Wars Legion due to the price increases at GW.
me too but selling second hand is tricky at the moment, hence why I am looking more into Warpath again as well for using the existing 40k collection instead of starting something new
So these CP boxes are going to vary wildly in value, depending on your perspective. I agree that the DW box isn't good at all with those two characters totalling £42 retail, and also notice that there aren't any substantive complaints about the SW box, which doesn't surprise me as it seems decent, so there is still hope that future products in this line will offer good value.
It's a shame though that the upgrade sprues are part of the savings. It means, for example, that if you wanted to buy the SW box for the Reivers and the Warsuit, but you don't actually play SW, you have to find a buyer for the upgrade sprues to realise full value, or just chuck them in the bits box and potentially never use them.
HEY! They use bolt weapons and that's our bread and butter...yeah...it was bullcrap.
Honestly, like I said earlier, I would like to see unique units for all of the Chapters based around a particular unit. Perhaps give Imperial Fists Aggressors can get the ability to advance without penalty back (or the double shoot when stationary ability, but that is unlikely). The maybe White Scars can have a special Outrider unit. I don't know. I would like to see this applied to everyone.
Mmmmm. I want a special Salamanders unit of Eradicators with some new buff.
