JWBS wrote: So these CP boxes are going to vary wildly in value, depending on your perspective. I agree that the DW box isn't good at all with those two characters totalling £42 retail, and also notice that there aren't any substantive complaints about the SW box, which doesn't surprise me as it seems decent, so there is still hope that future products in this line will offer good value.
for the SW Box we need more details about the rules, as if the Walker sucks in a SW army it less of a value with a model you would never use
Gadzilla666 wrote: Anyway, think they'll do any previews for the rules in the Compendium this week? Just giving Dreadclaws and the Kharibdis the loyalist drop pod rules would probably have csm players clamoring for the book.
Maybe they'll give us a big downloadable "Legends" document for all the things that didn't make the cut.
That would be nice. Especially if they fixed some of the R&H stuff in it.
Knowing GW, we get one, but it'll be PL only like last time.
Wow those prices are crazy. I couldn't find anything 85 pounds on the site, but 80 pounds = 130$, so we are looking at 140$ probably. It wouldn't be too big a deal if these were complementary "Next Step" bundles for after a Start Collecting set, but to replace it? That is too steep for my taste, and seems like a lot to buy in for the hobby.
JWBS wrote: So these CP boxes are going to vary wildly in value, depending on your perspective. I agree that the DW box isn't good at all with those two characters totalling £42 retail, and also notice that there aren't any substantive complaints about the SW box, which doesn't surprise me as it seems decent, so there is still hope that future products in this line will offer good value.
It's a shame though that the upgrade sprues are part of the savings. It means, for example, that if you wanted to buy the SW box for the Reivers and the Warsuit, but you don't actually play SW, you have to find a buyer for the upgrade sprues to realise full value, or just chuck them in the bits box and potentially never use them.
OTOHapoc is the current hot cheese so anybody who doesn't have one wants one. For 1 purchase it's good enough(though mostly directed for existing players. For new players steep starting price). Less so for multiples but unsurprisingly GW doesn't like when you can get too much with discount boxes. Expect lot less flesh eater court and beastclaw raider thing where you pretty much need to only buy start collecting boxes
I'm all set with my marine lists currently, so GW prices are not a high priority, but......and it's a big but, if they redo the Eldar line and we're looking at current banshee prices, my pockets will need to be deep!
Shame for others though, I think I must have bought 3 Deathwatch SC sets.
kurhanik wrote: Wow those prices are crazy. I couldn't find anything 85 pounds on the site, but 80 pounds = 130$, so we are looking at 140$ probably. It wouldn't be too big a deal if these were complementary "Next Step" bundles for after a Start Collecting set, but to replace it? That is too steep for my taste, and seems like a lot to buy in for the hobby.
The Keeper of Secrets is £85, so whatever that is in dollars.
kurhanik wrote: Wow those prices are crazy. I couldn't find anything 85 pounds on the site, but 80 pounds = 130$, so we are looking at 140$ probably. It wouldn't be too big a deal if these were complementary "Next Step" bundles for after a Start Collecting set, but to replace it? That is too steep for my taste, and seems like a lot to buy in for the hobby.
The Keeper of Secrets is £85, so whatever that is in dollars.
We’ll be taking a closer look at the forces of Krieg later in the week, but it’s not just these stoic warriors that are featured in the book though, there are also datasheets for some of the Space Marines Chapters of Renown – Red Scorpions, Minotaurs, Blood Ravens, Astral Claws, and Carcharodons. This means that you’ll be able to field such legendary warriors as Carab Culln the Risen and Asterion Moloc in your games of Warhammer 40,000.
* If a unit exists but doesn’t have a datasheet in this book, don’t worry! It will be getting a Warhammer Legends datasheet so that you can continue to use it in your games.
Also, the table of contents is not insignificant...
We’ll be taking a closer look at the forces of Krieg later in the week, but it’s not just these stoic warriors that are featured in the book though, there are also datasheets for some of the Space Marines Chapters of Renown – Red Scorpions, Minotaurs, Blood Ravens, Astral Claws, and Carcharodons. This means that you’ll be able to field such legendary warriors as Carab Culln the Risen and Asterion Moloc in your games of Warhammer 40,000.
* If a unit exists but doesn’t have a datasheet in this book, don’t worry! It will be getting a Warhammer Legends datasheet so that you can continue to use it in your games.
Also, the table of contents is not insignificant...
Spoiler:
I wonder if theres any significance to the Leviathan losing "Relic" other than not having to pay the unit tax
Can't wait for the Legends document. If we see flamer-type weapons at Range 8" in that document then we'll finally know how much GW cares about FW units.
We’ll be taking a closer look at the forces of Krieg later in the week, but it’s not just these stoic warriors that are featured in the book though, there are also datasheets for some of the Space Marines Chapters of Renown – Red Scorpions, Minotaurs, Blood Ravens, Astral Claws, and Carcharodons. This means that you’ll be able to field such legendary warriors as Carab Culln the Risen and Asterion Moloc in your games of Warhammer 40,000.
* If a unit exists but doesn’t have a datasheet in this book, don’t worry! It will be getting a Warhammer Legends datasheet so that you can continue to use it in your games.
Also, the table of contents is not insignificant...
Spoiler:
I wonder if theres any significance to the Leviathan losing "Relic" other than not having to pay the unit tax
For a long time, the Start Collecting! boxes have been a great way to begin a Warhammer 40,000 army or to add to an existing one. Now, as new codexes and codex supplements come out, they will start to be replaced with Combat Patrol boxes instead. The Combat Patrol kits are an entire army in a box. As the name implies, each one contains a complete Combat Patrol-sized force of 25 Power or 500 points. That makes them perfect for getting started with the smaller-sized games of Warhammer 40,000, which are full of fast-paced action and a great way to learn the rules for your new army.
Combat Patrol sets are also ideal as a base for building a larger army. So, once you’ve played a few games at Combat Patrol level, you can easily expand to an Incursion-sized force and beyond. If you like to play a rapid mobility game, add some extra Fast Attack options to your force. Prefer to unleash devastating firepower? You can pick up Heavy Support units and blast your enemies into oblivion! Here’s a couple of ideas of how to upgrade the Deathwatch and Space Wolves Combat Patrols into deadly Incursion-sized armies.
"The Start Collecting! range offers too much of a discount. Now we have more expensive boxes with slightly more product in them. Enjoy."
The best pat about the Deathwatch box is that it has no Deathwatch minis in there. No special character, no boxed mixed Kill Team, and no DW Veterans. Just Primaris Marines.
Matrindur wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the Hounds of Morkai costs 35€ but 5 Reivers and an upgrade sprue only costs 31€ so maybe there is more to this kit than we know
Or Geedubs wants to suck more money out of people and hopes nobody notices.
The best pat about the Deathwatch box is that it has no Deathwatch minis in there. No special character, no boxed mixed Kill Team, and no DW Veterans. Just Primaris Marines.
That indeed is the best part. Every model is usable and the box is not saddled with old and ugly models. (Granted, the DW are the best of the minimarines, but they're still misshapen compared to the primaris.)
Billagio wrote: I wonder if theres any significance to the Leviathan losing "Relic" other than not having to pay the unit tax
Nothing has "relic" in its name. No hellforged either, interesting. It looks like csm are getting Sicaran Punishers too. Nice.
Edit: Whoops! Missed the Relic Contemptor.
I'm definitely thinking that it's going to be a keyword function then.
Yeah, and I'm definitely thinking Machine Malifica is going to be DOA. Making it a keyword would make it similar to how "Relics" and "Infernal Relics" worked in 7th though. I think any keywords on the non-loyalists datasheets will be interesting, they could give us hints to how other codexes could work.
Also the Hounds of Morkai costs 35€ but 5 Reivers and an upgrade sprue only costs 31€ so maybe there is more to this kit than we know
For context, the "Combat Squad" boxes they did for Hellblasters, Reivers, and Intercessors were not "half" of the price of a regular box. It was a little over--because the $60 sets are a permanent fixture while the Combat Squads were a splash release.
Is there even a point in buying the Hounds of Morkai? Just buy a reiver box. The set itself has several heads with mohawks, and even the bald heads could pass for space wolves. Since they're not going to get special shoulder pads, that's not an issue either. Plus, I'd imagine any space wolf player, whether they have primaris or firstborn, would have plenty of bits to decorate the marines.
I cannot understand why GW keeps changing boxes styles each 6 months... I mean... they re-released a ton of stuff in a new box for 8th just to change again mid 8th and now again in 9th?
Don't they know this stuff ahead of time or are just improvising on the march?
Galas wrote: I cannot understand why GW keeps changing boxes styles each 6 months... I mean... they re-released a ton of stuff in a new box for 8th just to change again mid 8th and now again in 9th?
Don't they know this stuff ahead of time or are just improvising on the march?
I don't remember seeing a mid-8th change, but it's really all about the branding. I think they felt the decision to change given the new 40k banner and approach to instructions/condensed data sheets was worth the headache of printing a bit more cardboard.
Galas wrote: I cannot understand why GW keeps changing boxes styles each 6 months... I mean... they re-released a ton of stuff in a new box for 8th just to change again mid 8th and now again in 9th?
Don't they know this stuff ahead of time or are just improvising on the march?
I don't remember seeing a mid-8th change, but it's really all about the branding. I think they felt the decision to change given the new 40k banner and approach to instructions/condensed data sheets was worth the headache of printing a bit more cardboard.
Sometimes its just about art design or marketing people (or committees) ticking a box on 'produce something tangible for the company' for personnel evaluations.
Galas wrote: I cannot understand why GW keeps changing boxes styles each 6 months... I mean... they re-released a ton of stuff in a new box for 8th just to change again mid 8th and now again in 9th?
Don't they know this stuff ahead of time or are just improvising on the march?
I don't remember seeing a mid-8th change, but it's really all about the branding. I think they felt the decision to change given the new 40k banner and approach to instructions/condensed data sheets was worth the headache of printing a bit more cardboard.
The thing is... they never finish a box rebranding before starting the next one
Galas wrote: I cannot understand why GW keeps changing boxes styles each 6 months... I mean... they re-released a ton of stuff in a new box for 8th just to change again mid 8th and now again in 9th?
Don't they know this stuff ahead of time or are just improvising on the march?
I don't remember seeing a mid-8th change, but it's really all about the branding. I think they felt the decision to change given the new 40k banner and approach to instructions/condensed data sheets was worth the headache of printing a bit more cardboard.
The thing is... they never finish a box rebranding before starting the next one
Completing something under the same design paradigm has never been GW's strong suit.
Geifer wrote: Guess incomplete reboxings fit right in...
You know, I am puzzled now why they started killing SC with DW/SW. Why not start with Space Marines? Their SC is really old and ugly, and you'd think they would ride on hype generated by Codex release to push a few of them. And why leave old SWSC alive? You'd think they would sell more of newoverpricedbox if they removed alternative, and if anything, SW squat box is one of the few uglier and older than SM ones.
I am also puzzled why they made Primaris SWSC only to squt it what, half a year later? That has to be some new record. Why even bother?
As much as I loved Lias, I'm fine with him being gone.
I'm not since I'm not gonna use that particular model for literally anything else. Narvaez is just as obnoxious too since I gave him a Shotgun to represent his weapon and that just won't work for anything else either. They removed a bunch of other stuff because NO MODEL NO RULES is apparently a thing for FW now. Thanks GW rules team. Super stellar work.
Geifer wrote: Guess incomplete reboxings fit right in...
You know, I am puzzled now why they started killing SC with DW/SW. Why not start with Space Marines? Their SC is really old and ugly, and you'd think they would ride on hype generated by Codex release to push a few of them. And why leave old SWSC alive? You'd think they would sell more of newoverpricedbox if they removed alternative, and if anything, SW squat box is one of the few uglier and older than SM ones.
I am also puzzled why they made Primaris SWSC only to squt it what, half a year later? That has to be some new record. Why even bother?
Not that I actually know GW's reasons, but if I had to guess:
They have large stock levels for those old Marine boxes they keep selling and enough confidence that they'll sell through that they won't just scrap them. Because realistically those old Marines won't sell anymore outside of discount bundles to any appreciable degree.
Old Space Wolves have significant rules support and since GW doesn't want to keep rules for models they no longer sell, and they don't feel confident to scrap 90% of the Space Wolves rules, they keep the old Space Wolves kits around, and preferably in a shape that sells.
Space Wolves start collecting may have simply been the last box to be greenlit before the new boxes were decided on, with Space Marines being released too early to make a new style box for after that decision and Space Wolves and Deathwatch having the honor instead. GW's production is an ongoing process and there has to be a cutoff point somewhere.
I am also puzzled why they made Primaris SWSC only to squt it what, half a year later? That has to be some new record. Why even bother?
In 6 month new kit has sold most of it's life time expectancy. If sc not much different no real loss
While I obviously have no hard data to back this up, I´d have to imagine that of all the kits they have put out the SC series might be the ones with the most tail sales. The quality of what you get tends to vary a bit between the factions but in most cases they are an ideal and affordable way to start an army. These new boxes however, I dunno 110 euros is steep especially since you would still realistically need at the very least a codex and probably some paints too.
Mr Insomniac wrote: Am I reading that price list correctly? 45 Euros for the easy to build, no options outrider squad? Eeesh.
Same story as the Skorpekh's.
The Skorpekh at least have the option to swap the different torsos between the sets of legs, giving them a little variation, even if some of the non-default poses are kinda goofy. Oh and you can have more than three in a squad.
With the bikes the closest you get to pose variation without resorting to clippers and saws is the angle the guys holding weapons have their arms sticking out at.
Mr Insomniac wrote: Am I reading that price list correctly? 45 Euros for the easy to build, no options outrider squad? Eeesh.
Same story as the Skorpekh's.
The Skorpekh at least have the option to swap the different torsos between the sets of legs, giving them a little variation, even if some of the non-default poses are kinda goofy. Oh and you can have more than three in a squad.
With the bikes the closest you get to pose variation without resorting to clippers and saws is the angle the guys holding weapons have their arms sticking out at.
You can do a bit more than that. Swap weapons and heads with assault intercessor bits from the same box. Its not hard to take things off at the shoulder and cover the joins with a new pauldron.
Geifer wrote: Guess incomplete reboxings fit right in...
You know, I am puzzled now why they started killing SC with DW/SW. Why not start with Space Marines? Their SC is really old and ugly, and you'd think they would ride on hype generated by Codex release to push a few of them. And why leave old SWSC alive? You'd think they would sell more of newoverpricedbox if they removed alternative, and if anything, SW squat box is one of the few uglier and older than SM ones.
I am also puzzled why they made Primaris SWSC only to squt it what, half a year later? That has to be some new record. Why even bother?
Because nothing primaris is built to last. They're the Iphone 11 of space mar-sorry, Iphone 12 now, it's Iphone 12 for the metaphor.
You're not going to get any kind of long term rules support buying into primaris. You'll only get splash release to get excited and buy product. Sad your SW special character got squatted? Don't be, just get excited for and buy New Product Fangs of Morkai! Will it make it to the next codex? Hell naw, but the next one will have New Product To Buy!
Now that's new level. People have been predicting old marines being squatted yet hasn't happened and already people are claiming primaris units are getting squatted when none so far has?
(btw discount boxes changing isn'" same as primaris unit losing support)
And units going back and forth in power is standard for gw. Aggressors god in 8e, 9e nerfed. 10e could be arch-gods. Gw keeps changing what's good and bad all the time. Unit getting nerfed doesn't mean it sucks forever. Yesterday's junk is tomorrow's cheese
I didn’t really say anything with the pushfit releases even though that means poor poseability for multiple extra-heavy destroyers and doomstalkers, but this week, I definitely have some complaints.
1: The only options on the void dragon are the face. I’d let that slide because it’s a character model, but still part of the trend so it gets a note here.
2: The only options in the monolith are the guns and whether you want a warrior emerging from them eternity gate. In addition, the model is smaller than the old monolith despite the box it comes in being double sized and priced as a superheavy. It’s also layered up in a way that looks a nightmare to paint and makes it look more fragile than the old ominous floating pyramid did. The mandatory single pose canoptek passenger has no rules representation, nor does the fact that the visible interior of the vehicle is about more 40% blackstone. There’s some pros to this model and it should look pretty good with a good paint job, but the cons are more than I’d expect.
3: This is the biggest and most notable one: Ophydians have no spare parts whatsoever, barring three spare heads. (One of which is missing a lower jaw and thus kind useless unless you really want to model a unit with sophisticated self repair battle damaged) I was hoping for some parts that would help me convert the pushfit Skorpekhs into more poses, but I was shocked to discover that an elite unit released in 2020 with a unit size of 6 only comes with three poses and no alternative compotents. Instead of 12 hard to repose destroyers, I now have 24.
robbienw wrote: The Combat Patrol boxes appear to be stuffed full of initial release primaris stuff that GW over produced and nobody wants to buy anymore
eh not really, most of the units in those boxes are pretty solid ones that Marines will have a use for, Space Wolves have the 5 man reiver/Hounds of Morkai squad and yeah no one wants reivers, but given they're eistablishing those guys as the space wolves "thing" and for all we know Hounds are going to end up being some god tier unit that is a staple of every space wolf list (I doubt it but you never know)
The whole "GW uses bundle boxes to sell overstocked kits" I think is almost like a meme. I don't think people appreciate that GW doesn't sit there with vast amounts of stock just hanging around. Asides this year alone we stripped GW of most of their stock of everything and then continued to keep buying even when GW got some of their factory and warehouse setup once more.
If anything I'd wager GW's regular stocks are very much on the short end not the high end right now.
Besides opening, unpacking and repacking stock takes time and money. When GW's stock is going to sell unless they pull a kit from sale; why pay staff to work harder to unbox and rebox when they can just keep the existing stock; cast more; pack more and have the older stock sit till it gets sold.
Besides opening, unpacking and repacking stock takes time and money. When GW's stock is going to sell unless they pull a kit from sale; why pay staff to work harder to unbox and rebox when they can just keep the existing stock; cast more; pack more and have the older stock sit till it gets sold.
Then there is even less reason for the stupid named Reivers.
Overread wrote: The whole "GW uses bundle boxes to sell overstocked kits" I think is almost like a meme. I don't think people appreciate that GW doesn't sit there with vast amounts of stock just hanging around. Asides this year alone we stripped GW of most of their stock of everything and then continued to keep buying even when GW got some of their factory and warehouse setup once more.
If anything I'd wager GW's regular stocks are very much on the short end not the high end right now.
Besides opening, unpacking and repacking stock takes time and money. When GW's stock is going to sell unless they pull a kit from sale; why pay staff to work harder to unbox and rebox when they can just keep the existing stock; cast more; pack more and have the older stock sit till it gets sold.
I mean intercessors in the box are explainable by the fact that they're pretty much the iconic troop of space marines. (before anyone interjects with "tactical marines" I'm gonna note GW clearly wants intercessors to be the new "face man" of the marine line. weather you think it or not GW has decided they're the "iconic troop" now)
changemod wrote: I didn’t really say anything with the pushfit releases even though that means poor poseability for multiple extra-heavy destroyers and doomstalkers, but this week, I definitely have some complaints.
1: The only options on the void dragon are the face. I’d let that slide because it’s a character model, but still part of the trend so it gets a note here.
2: The only options in the monolith are the guns and whether you want a warrior emerging from them eternity gate. In addition, the model is smaller than the old monolith despite the box it comes in being double sized and priced as a superheavy. It’s also layered up in a way that looks a nightmare to paint and makes it look more fragile than the old ominous floating pyramid did. The mandatory single pose canoptek passenger has no rules representation, nor does the fact that the visible interior of the vehicle is about more 40% blackstone. There’s some pros to this model and it should look pretty good with a good paint job, but the cons are more than I’d expect.
3: This is the biggest and most notable one: Ophydians have no spare parts whatsoever, barring three spare heads. (One of which is missing a lower jaw and thus kind useless unless you really want to model a unit with sophisticated self repair battle damaged) I was hoping for some parts that would help me convert the pushfit Skorpekhs into more poses, but I was shocked to discover that an elite unit released in 2020 with a unit size of 6 only comes with three poses and no alternative compotents. Instead of 12 hard to repose destroyers, I now have 24.
I'm a little surprised by the Ophydians, but not the other two. The new monolith looked like a pain in pictures, just a completely different kind of pain from the old one.
From the shots I've seen it is about the same rough size. That said its clearly way more sprue parts because its a far more complex model. The old one is basically four flat sheets of plastic with some detail on the top; the new one has a much chunkier and more layered design for the lower half that likely adds a few more sprue to the setup.
So yes its not so much that its a bigger kit, but a more complex and detailed on.
Lord Damocles wrote: So much for the 'ThE pRicE is jUsTifIed beCaUSe it'S So bIG!' claims...
in fairness no one has claimed that, they've claimed it's a size/complexity thing. and it is a much more COMPLICATED kit then the original one (weather you think that's an improvement is entirely subjective)
I assumed it was bigger, and would therefore be more expensive because of that and because it was a newer kit. What I did not expect is for it to be smaller.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I assumed it was bigger, and would therefore be more expensive because of that and because it was a newer kit. What I did not expect is for it to be smaller.
Lord of War my ass...
Thanks for the pic, Ghaz.
Remember you're comparing an empty plastic box to a plastic box with a fully detailed interior as well.
I think I prefer the original design, but the new one certainly benefits from 20 years of tech improvement leading to better detailing.
There’s pros and cons to both. I’d have preferred a more solid or less visible interior and for the canoptek model to be optional (I like canoptek, but it’s pretty visually distracting and replaces the central strut from the top of the old monolith).
It being slightly smaller rather than slightly larger absolutely strikes me as silly though.
My only problem with all the interior of the new one is the amount of staged building and painting you basically need/want/have to do. Sometimes a lot of GW's older models at least let you build them up and then paint when you want. Quite a lot of the newer designs are approaching high complexity, but at the same time are blocking off large areas to get the brush in easily.
Y'know, price concerns aside - it's actually refreshing that a new model hasn't invalidated the old one on the basis of size alone. Everyone that already had a Monolith will have absolutely no issues continuing to use it.
That gate is an amazingly unimpressive thing. It looks... cheap.
The detail overall is obviously an improvement, but I just don't like the design. The layers, the giant bug, the golf ball, I just don't see the point.
Certainly not cost-worthy or worth the LoW penalty.
I personally love it, but even with 20% off I paid £80 odd, so basically double the price of what the original one cost by the end of its retail life.
How many sprues was the old one? The old one also had those green transparent bits. The new Monolith is 4 big ones ( of those 4 it is 2 of the same sprues repeated twice) and a smaller one to build the Canoptek construct on the rear of the Monolith.
I did say that when we first saw it I dreaded the price, and that came to pass. I am wondering if the LOW classification came before or after the price was worked out within GW?
GW decided to cut the Gordian Knot of whether to try to sell people more expensive FW resin or less expensive GW plastic...by just selling them GW plastic at FW resin prices?
I'm normally not one to complain about prices, I've been buying a ton of Necron stuff lately, but it sure does seem like GW has really escalated their prices on stuff this year.
Hounds of Morkai are $45, Ragnar's $40, Ghazghkull is $65, both DW+SW supplements are $30 each. Outriders are, from what I'm seeing, $60 not $55.
As for why those two boxes are different...Apothecaries are $35 or $47.50 for the Deathwatch version that came with a DW upgrade sprue.
SC: Wolves comes out to:
-$35 for the Battle Leader
-$50 for the Aggressors
-$60 for the Intercessors
-$14 for the upgrade sprues...unless it was being counted as part of the Wolf Aggressor or Intercessor boxes when they first packaged everything.
So either $145 or $159, depending on that bit.
Deathwatch one is:
-$35 for the LT
-$35 for the Apothecary
-$50 for the Aggressors
-$60 for the Intercessors
-$14 for the upgrade frames...although in their case I think it's actually two sets of frames rather than just one set(which is one sprue duplicated), which would put it at $28.
Comes out to
$194 if just one set of upgrade frames, $208 if two sets of upgrade frames.
For sake of argument though, the Combat Patrol for Wolves is:
-$35 for Battle Leader
-$60 for Intercessors
-$45 for Wolves of Morkai
-$60 for Invictor
-$14 for Intercessors' upgrade frame
Comes out to $214 individually.
The now defunct Start Collecting Deathwatch was:
-Artemis at $30
-Venerable Dreadnought at $59
-2x Deathwatch Veteran boxes at $38 each.
Came out to $165 if bought individually for 2 min sized squads, an overpriced Dreadnought that was showing its age, and a Special Character that kills you wanting duplicates.
I was comparing the Wolf Start Collecting and the DW Combat Patrol. Don't even try to move the goalposts here in your endless attempts to defend GW.
I am comparing the Wolf SC and DW Combat Patrol because the two are the same bar an Apothecary, and the price has jumped US$45. The Apothecary is a US$35 kit. Why have they added one more miniature and a further $10?
I didn't see a defence of it, I just saw him doing the math, and he's right, more or less, the price is "Explained" by the addition of the extra mini. which is always a more expensive elite.
the new combat patrol boxes SEEM to have a formula to their contents in them.
1 HQ (so far always a Lt)
10 troops.
1 elite troops squad (reivers in the SW's case, agressors in the death watches case)
1 "special elite" eaither a character or a dreadnought.
tyhe take away from here is "the apocathary, like all 40k characters, is insanely expensive"
And save your freakouts about 'goalposts' for elsewhere. I posted prices for other things as I found them from a US retailer. That's why it was just those items. Hounds of Morkai are $45USD, which puts them in line with the Combat Squads which had been $35 during the initial splash release years ago if a half set of upgrades gets added.
Despite the price being higher the savings(real or imagined) are floating around the same spot, by virtue of simple number-crunching. $66.50 on the new DW set if the DW Primaris Apothecary is the one picked out. $68 on the new DW set if they counted the upgrade sets(of which there would be two, since it only contains 10) separately. $64 on the old Space Wolf set...and that's with assigning a price($35) to a model that as far as I know has not been sold individually(The Primaris Wolf Guard Battle Leader)
I still don’t get how people complain to this extent about the prices on a voluntary purchase.
If I can’t afford something? I don’t buy it and move on
If I can afford it, but it’s not worth it? I don’t buy it and move on.
If I can afford it, and it’s worth it? I buy it and move on
If I can’t afford it, and have an extra kidney? I buy it and move on.
I just seems weird for this much vitriol over a voluntary luxury good. Everyone wants things to be cheaper so that arguement doesn’t really hold water since it applies to everything.
It's just a worse deal all round. You are not getting much more for the cost (especially the deathwatch one). 2 overpriced characters are not doing the box any favours. Not to mention putting the cost above the $100 threshold is not smart. I'd take the current Start Collecting Vanguard over any of these 2 every day of the week.
Leth wrote: I still don’t get how people complain to this extent about the prices on a voluntary purchase.
If I can’t afford something? I don’t buy it and move on
If I can afford it, but it’s not worth it? I don’t buy it and move on.
If I can afford it, and it’s worth it? I buy it and move on
If I can’t afford it, and have an extra kidney? I buy it and move on.
I just seems weird for this much vitriol over a voluntary luxury good. Everyone wants things to be cheaper so that arguement doesn’t really hold water since it applies to everything.
If you can't understand something, why don't you move on? What makes this different than the rest of your enunciated life strategy?
It's a bit ironic. Especially given that "this is too expensive" is literally the easiest complaint to understand in the whole world. What you really mean is you don't agree, not that you don't "get it."
Yes you do. You understand completely. You are not naive, nor are you ignorant, nor are you stupid.
You know perfectly well why people would be unhappy with two boxes with almost the same content going up in price by more than the single addition to said box actually costs on its own.
"This is too expensive" is something that is effectively an opinion, seeing as people will value things differently.
I hold zero interest in these boxes as they aren't things I like for my Raven Guard. Just like if a Combat Patrol set comes out for AdMech and it's Electropriests and Kataphron with a Techpriest--I'll have no interest. Things that don't interest me have zero value.
And save your freakouts about 'goalposts' for elsewhere. I posted prices for other things as I found them from a US retailer. That's why it was just those items. Hounds of Morkai are $45USD, which puts them in line with the Combat Squads which had been $35 during the initial splash release years ago if a half set of upgrades gets added.
Despite the price being higher the savings(real or imagined) are floating around the same spot, by virtue of simple number-crunching.
$66.50 on the new DW set if the DW Primaris Apothecary is the one picked out.
$68 on the new DW set if they counted the upgrade sets(of which there would be two, since it only contains 10) separately.
$64 on the old Space Wolf set...and that's with assigning a price($35) to a model that as far as I know has not been sold individually(The Primaris Wolf Guard Battle Leader)
I like how you're trying to sneak in bundles of both characters and squads to inflate "savings" of new box (for the record, DW Apothecary in the link above isn't even a box, just regular ass Apothecary and clam pack of DW sprue taped together). You'd maybe have a point if new box had 4 upgrade sprues it would need to have if you put said bundles on top of SWCS box, but seeing it still only has 2, you have none. Unless GW is now insane enough to inflate prices based on non-existent plastic, which would be equally bad on its own...
Kanluwen wrote: "This is too expensive" is something that is effectively an opinion, seeing as people will value things differently.
I hold zero interest in these boxes as they aren't things I like for my Raven Guard. Just like if a Combat Patrol set comes out for AdMech and it's Electropriests and Kataphron with a Techpriest--I'll have no interest. Things that don't interest me have zero value.
Ok, if nothing matters to you except your army, just stop posting on any other subject.
If you have no interest, prove it by not arguing with people who actually do care about things that affect them and/or people other than them.
It doesn't revolve around you and you don't care. We get it.
Kanluwen wrote: "This is too expensive" is something that is effectively an opinion, seeing as people will value things differently.
I hold zero interest in these boxes as they aren't things I like for my Raven Guard. Just like if a Combat Patrol set comes out for AdMech and it's Electropriests and Kataphron with a Techpriest--I'll have no interest. Things that don't interest me have zero value.
Ok, if nothing matters to you except your army, just stop posting on any other subject.
If you have no interest, prove it by not arguing with people who actually do care about things that affect them and/or people other than them.
I'm not abiding by any rules that nobody else has to. Given the amount of time people spend whining about GW on here, in GW threads--I think you should start there before throwing rocks my way...and I seem to do a fairly good job of not spending time in chunks of the forum at large that hold no interest to me. And threads for that matter.
But anyways: I posted the price breakdowns. People don't like the prices. That's between them and GW. You'll notice I didn't actually defend or say anything about the prices, beyond what the breakdowns were and that the savings seem to be roughly similar. Some folks chose to interpret that as a defense? That's for them to get over.
Kanluwen wrote: "This is too expensive" is something that is effectively an opinion
Of course it's an opinion. My point was that everyone "gets it." You may not agree in this particular instance. But the sentiment that "this costs too much, especially compared to before" is universally comprehensible by anyone who understands the concept of money.
Your breakdown was flawed because going from, say, a discount box that is $50 for what normally costs $100, to something that is $100 for what normally costs $150, is not offering comparable value, just because in both cases you're getting a $50 "discount," any more than saying $50 off the purchase price of a $20,000 car is equivalent to saving $50 off a radio that costs $90. Hence my comment about the old "buy more and save!" scam. This is a classic example of that. The value being offered by these boxes has been substantially downgraded.
Super Ready wrote: Y'know, price concerns aside - it's actually refreshing that a new model hasn't invalidated the old one on the basis of size alone. Everyone that already had a Monolith will have absolutely no issues continuing to use it.
Yep. Size being about same is good. If for nothing else less MFA claims with people using older models which would be easier to hide.
Price and LOW status is another thing. But size wise if new one would dwarf old one we would have inevitable complains about people using their old models. "You must buy the new one! That's MFA!"
Try hard pretend tournaments are causing so much trouble.
Leth wrote: Nothing I need from it so I wont be buying it.
Still a decent value for the people who want them over retail prices
It's okay if you know what you are getting yourself into, but this price point will not help get new players into the fold or get people to impulse buy. By adding another character to the DW box they've also stunted any chance of rebuys of the box so you effectively got a large army box that someone new to the army might buy, but will also not result in multiple buy-ins. This is also a box that is going to take up a lot of shelf space so this box kinda hits all the negatives on all fronts. The SW box fares slightly better as you're only getting one repeat character and that character can now be converted rather effectively into an Assault Intecessor.
Leth wrote: Nothing I need from it so I wont be buying it.
Still a decent value for the people who want them over retail prices
It's okay if you know what you are getting yourself into, but this price point will not help get new players into the fold or get people to impulse buy. By adding another character to the DW box they've also stunted any chance of rebuys of the box so you effectively got a large army box that someone new to the army might buy, but will also not result in multiple buy-ins. This is also a box that is going to take up a lot of shelf space so this box kinda hits all the negatives on all fronts. The SW box fares slightly better as you're only getting one repeat character and that character can now be converted rather effectively into an Assault Intecessor.
Less multibuys discount boxes is what GW wants. 1 box per player is what they want to sell.
tneva82 wrote: Less multibuys discount boxes is what GW wants. 1 box per player is what they want to sell.
That would be all fine and great if a single box would actually help you get your army off the ground. I can easily see that being the case for Death Guard or Custodes, but not for guard, orks or nids.
It's no surprise that everyone is starting with marines when other armies require so much more money to start.
tneva82 wrote: Less multibuys discount boxes is what GW wants. 1 box per player is what they want to sell.
That would be all fine and great if a single box would actually help you get your army off the ground. I can easily see that being the case for Death Guard or Custodes, but not for guard, orks or nids.
It's no surprise that everyone is starting with marines when other armies require so much more money to start.
indeed the pts / $£EUROCHF in starters is really in favour of elites and not the more "substantial" factions...
Then there are also boxes that are.. limited in their capacity to make an army of said faction... f.e. the CSM starter has for fluff players a rate of up to 2/5 or even 3/5 options in the box that are for some subfactions not wanted... because of the daemonkin theme. (not to mention the extremely arbitrary equipement options on the csm ...
Less multibuys discount boxes is what GW wants. 1 box per player is what they want to sell.
If these boxes were Direct Order only I'd agree with that assessment, but as big boxes that are going to take a lot of retail space they are atrocious. The old SC have a decent turnover in my FLGS, but these new ones are going to be a harder sell and people are not going to rebuy them, which means the FLGS will probably not want to order them to keep in stock.
That is also the problem people need to realize. Not only are the new boxes customer adverse, but they are also retail adverse.
you know GW makes more money per box if they sell it online and not via 3rd party stores
so a more expensive box that is more often sold via their own network gives more profit and GW can still claim that it is a lot cheaper than buying the stuff without the box
regarding the difference of the SWSC Box and DWCP Box, the argument will be that the DW Upgrade Sprue is double the SW sprue and therefore you still save a lot
Galas wrote: The new is much cooler. Not double the price cooler but...
I don't like the new fractured (?) design of Necron vehicles as I prefer the clean and closed surface that keeps its mysterious interiors hidden and does not show it off for everyone and were a good hit might go thru and kill it from the insight
it is part of the flair of Necrons that you cannot see anything
tneva82 wrote: Less multibuys discount boxes is what GW wants. 1 box per player is what they want to sell.
That would be all fine and great if a single box would actually help you get your army off the ground. I can easily see that being the case for Death Guard or Custodes, but not for guard, orks or nids.
It's no surprise that everyone is starting with marines when other armies require so much more money to start.
indeed the pts / $£EUROCHF in starters is really in favour of elites and not the more "substantial" factions...
Then there are also boxes that are.. limited in their capacity to make an army of said faction... f.e. the CSM starter has for fluff players a rate of up to 2/5 or even 3/5 options in the box that are for some subfactions not wanted... because of the daemonkin theme. (not to mention the extremely arbitrary equipement options on the csm ...
in starters? the points per dollars favor elite armies PERIOD.
A Guard player is proably buying twice as many Minis as Space Marines, just to equal points cost.
A Guard player is proably buying twice as many Minis as Space Marines, just to equal points cost.
hence why boxes with fixed point costs are a good thing in general, yet other manufacturer price their stuff according to models needed in general and don't sell 10 models boxes at the same price no matter if you need 20 or 60
A Guard player is proably buying twice as many Minis as Space Marines, just to equal points cost.
hence why boxes with fixed point costs are a good thing in general, yet other manufacturer price their stuff according to models needed in general and don't sell 10 models boxes at the same price no matter if you need 20 or 60
That still doesn't work when one army can get a usable unit from a single box, while others need three to four boxes of models to make a useful unit.
if those 4 boxes together cost the same, yes it works
GW just stopped doing it a long time ago, for the main reason that the numer of models for a working units changes over each edition and it is cheaper for them to make one box than adjust it with each new edition and army book
He's already said he would price by points. So if Lootas cost 100pts for 3 models and Aggressors cost 200pts for 3 models, the Lootas would be half the price of the Aggressors.
/Edit - If I read him right (might not be)
JWBS wrote: He's already said he would price by points. So if Lootas cost 100pts for 3 models and Aggressors cost 200pts for 3 models, the Lootas would be half the price of the Aggressors.
/Edit - If I read him right (might not be)
exactly, price it by Powerlevel to be more in line with GW as points change more often, but overall this should solve some problems
It's lootas/burnas though, burnas are half the points of lootas.
In addition, an aggressor is 40 points, a loota 20. So, if aggressors remain at $50 points, a box of lootas would go to $83.33, or $250 for a single unit.
No matter how you cut it, points/PL are not a decent metric to make price units.
Jidmah wrote: It's lootas/burnas though, burnas are half the points of lootas.
In addition, an aggressor is 40 points, a loota 20. So, if aggressors remain at $50 points, a box of lootas would go to $83.33, or $250 for a single unit.
No matter how you cut it, points/PL are not a decent metric to make price units.
See , i rekon the pricing is not only also an issue in regards to price overall but also in regards to which factions are getting played and more importantly why GW has such issues with piracy, well beyond obvious service problems....
Man looking at the old monolith next to the new makes the old one look like a player made cardboard version lol.
I was expecting the new one to be much bigger but I’m pleasantly surprised that it’s the same size. Definitely getting me one whenever they decide to show up in Aus.
tneva82 wrote: Less multibuys discount boxes is what GW wants. 1 box per player is what they want to sell.
That would be all fine and great if a single box would actually help you get your army off the ground. I can easily see that being the case for Death Guard or Custodes, but not for guard, orks or nids.
It's no surprise that everyone is starting with marines when other armies require so much more money to start.
Well maybe (but probably not) these boxes will reverse that trend. What do you even put in the guard box to get to a combat patrol (500ish points?) 2 tanks, 20 infantry and 2 characters? That box would be a steal at the new price point. Of course I personally don't think that will be the case knowing GW but we will have to wait and see.
That would be a great idea and I really hope that they will do such boxes.
The pessimist in me sees them just doing repeats of all the boxes in the past, which means guard will get characters, an infantry squad a heavy weapon squad, a sentinel, a chimera and a LRBT if you're lucky. Just like orks are going to get a dread, kanz, nobz and/or 3 warbikers like they always do.
Hmm yeah, good point. There's nothing stopping them having a tiered pricing system for CP boxes like they have with SC boxes but I guess they'd want to avoid large disparities which would somewhat limit the ceiling if that were the case. Maybe rig the points in some way? Or, hopefully, just offer great value boxes for horde armies, like you say. I'd love to see a big GSC combat patrol box with a ton of stuff in there for cheap.
Yeah, they are ho hum maybe if they had better than pistols and knives. Also nerfing the crap out of Wolf Priests was not really needed. The Frost Weapon relic is a slightly better master crafted so that isn't bad. I like that the Saga's seem to be different and easier to trigger. And the Black Death is a damage 1 weapon you might actually take. Maybe, probably not.
So now one can only include a single frost weapon in their army? Seems kinda dumb. The obvious choice is to put it on twin lightning claws for a ton of attacks.
So now one can only include a single frost weapon in their army? Seems kinda dumb. The obvious choice is to put it on twin lightning claws for a ton of attacks.
I can see arguments for the Power Sword, it has better AP. But yes, my first thought was claws as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh well. Dead unit unless the meta changes, nobody's going to take a unit that's total, complete junk against the majority of armies.
I will continue to maintain that this is an attempt to foist off poor selling models on those dumb SW players.
You.....you are aware there’s a fair chunk of the player base to whom such things as the meta aren’t really a massive consideration?
But as a fluffy player, who only reads about meta, who also plays SW, I think this unit is a travesty. Phobos guys don't fit SW aesthetically imo. Their special rules are neat. But not enough to get me to play Reivers, even if I converted non-phobos guys to represent them. Its a waste of rules development time. I don't see any reason other than the one I have stated to make the unit in the first place. Give special Phobos units to Raven Guard they seem to want them.
We're all competitors here man. Top level competitors. I don't even paint my minis. I'm just in this to dominate the competition in this deep, complex, finely balanced cognitive challenge that is 40K.
JWBS wrote: We're all competitors here man. Top level competitors. I don't even paint my minis. I'm just in this to dominate the competition in this deep, complex, finely balanced cognitive challenge that is 40K.
...the needle in my sarcasm detector just got bent again. I only just got the damned thing fixed!
casvalremdeikun wrote: So now one can only include a single frost weapon in their army? Seems kinda dumb. The obvious choice is to put it on twin lightning claws for a ton of attacks.
Seems great to me. It seems odd that they'd wait this long to realize they've got way too many super-special-variant-subtype weapons running around, but any cleaning up of the clutter helps.
Answer is much more simple, Thousand Sons are the Arch Enemy of Wolves, and every Thousand Sons is a Psyker
hence why Wolves need much more anti-psyker units so that TS have no chance fighting them
who cares if Wolves would play against any other faction, that is not fluffy and no one plays battles that are not according to the background
Meh. I’ve got an unassembled reiver sprue from a boxed set, and a Primaris upgrade sprue. Might as well make some of these guys - definitely not buying the box for them though.
JWBS wrote: We're all competitors here man. Top level competitors. I don't even paint my minis. I'm just in this to dominate the competition in this deep, complex, finely balanced cognitive challenge that is 40K.
Well technically, if you truly want to dominate the competition you are forced to paint your minis now but I digress.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So now one can only include a single frost weapon in their army? Seems kinda dumb. The obvious choice is to put it on twin lightning claws for a ton of attacks.
Seems great to me. It seems odd that they'd wait this long to realize they've got way too many super-special-variant-subtype weapons running around, but any cleaning up of the clutter helps.
It allows you to give Primaris stuff Frost weapons, which is neat. I don't like that an army is limited to only one Frost weapon now is all.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So now one can only include a single frost weapon in their army? Seems kinda dumb. The obvious choice is to put it on twin lightning claws for a ton of attacks.
Look on the bright side: They didn't turn Frost weapons into a Strat.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So now one can only include a single frost weapon in their army? Seems kinda dumb. The obvious choice is to put it on twin lightning claws for a ton of attacks.
Look on the bright side: They didn't turn Frost weapons into a Strat.
This is true. Though it might as well be since there are likely better relics to chose from, making the strat for multiple relics all but necessary. I will miss being able to take multiple frost weapons in a list. Oh well. One can now kitbash a frost axe on that SW Lieutenant.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So now one can only include a single frost weapon in their army? Seems kinda dumb. The obvious choice is to put it on twin lightning claws for a ton of attacks.
Seems great to me. It seems odd that they'd wait this long to realize they've got way too many super-special-variant-subtype weapons running around, but any cleaning up of the clutter helps.
It allows you to give Primaris stuff Frost weapons, which is neat. I don't like that an army is limited to only one Frost weapon now is all.
I get that.
I'm just saying that its good that the SW armory isn't 10 entries of 'Frost <weapon type>,' because that's pointless bloat.
I half expected the Hounds to have 'special null bolt pistols' and 'ice knives' to add to the pile of special weapons.
You are asumming that there won't be another frost weapon when this is the same as the "master crafted" b-tier relic but in SW form, and you have still a ton of master crafted weapons in many units profiles.
kodos wrote: Answer is much more simple, Thousand Sons are the Arch Enemy of Wolves, and every Thousand Sons is a Psyker
hence why Wolves need much more anti-psyker units so that TS have no chance fighting them
who cares if Wolves would play against any other faction, that is not fluffy and no one plays battles that are not according to the background
if a 1K player is now suddenly unable to win against space wolves because of that one unit then I'd argue that unit really isn't what the problem is
kodos wrote: Answer is much more simple, Thousand Sons are the Arch Enemy of Wolves, and every Thousand Sons is a Psyker hence why Wolves need much more anti-psyker units so that TS have no chance fighting them
who cares if Wolves would play against any other faction, that is not fluffy and no one plays battles that are not according to the background
if a 1K player is now suddenly unable to win against space wolves because of that one unit then I'd argue that unit really isn't what the problem is
But what if he takes 30 reavers and combat squads them into 6 units and puts them into impulsors and rams them forward + DS them?
You now have like up to -6 to cast as a 1k son palyer..
I'm not saying this is what you would commonly see, but if you really wanted to toilor then thats a bad day for psyker armies...
If stacking to hit modifiers are a problem, all stacking modifiers should be a problem.
Again im not saying this like some sort of meta shattering thing and is oviously a gimmick ... But the fact it can be a thing just shows how silly it is..
kodos wrote: Answer is much more simple, Thousand Sons are the Arch Enemy of Wolves, and every Thousand Sons is a Psyker
hence why Wolves need much more anti-psyker units so that TS have no chance fighting them
who cares if Wolves would play against any other faction, that is not fluffy and no one plays battles that are not according to the background
if a 1K player is now suddenly unable to win against space wolves because of that one unit then I'd argue that unit really isn't what the problem is
But what if he takes 30 reavers and combat squads them into 6 units and puts them into impulsors and rams them forward + DS them?
You now have like up to -6 to cast as a 1k son palyer..
I'm not saying this is what you would commonly see, but if you really wanted to toilor then thats a bad day for psyker armies...
If stacking to hit modifiers are a problem, all stacking modifiers should be a problem.
Again im not saying this like some sort of meta shattering thing and is oviously a gimmick ... But the fact it can be a thing just shows how silly it is..
this is assuming it stacks, I'm inclined to say it doesn't given the SOS special ability specificly states theirs stack but the Hounds do not.
kodos wrote: Answer is much more simple, Thousand Sons are the Arch Enemy of Wolves, and every Thousand Sons is a Psyker
hence why Wolves need much more anti-psyker units so that TS have no chance fighting them
who cares if Wolves would play against any other faction, that is not fluffy and no one plays battles that are not according to the background
if a 1K player is now suddenly unable to win against space wolves because of that one unit then I'd argue that unit really isn't what the problem is
But what if he takes 30 reavers and combat squads them into 6 units and puts them into impulsors and rams them forward + DS them?
You now have like up to -6 to cast as a 1k son palyer..
I'm not saying this is what you would commonly see, but if you really wanted to toilor then thats a bad day for psyker armies...
If stacking to hit modifiers are a problem, all stacking modifiers should be a problem.
Again im not saying this like some sort of meta shattering thing and is oviously a gimmick ... But the fact it can be a thing just shows how silly it is..
this is assuming it stacks, I'm inclined to say it doesn't given the SOS special ability specificly states theirs stack but the Hounds do not.
RAW doesn't say it doesn't stack so.. Who knows.. As stands under RAW I don't see why it wouldn't stack until FAQ'd otherwise.
Its kind of cool how in my head they would circle the target psyker cordoning them off while they have a seisure clawing their face off.
But I think its silly and unnecessary. Surely you just take runepriests and the relics for anti psyker stuff for characters rather than choppy stuff if you want the "fluff" of anti psyker tools... It just seems another case of having cake and eating it too. :
JWBS wrote: We're all competitors here man. Top level competitors. I don't even paint my minis. I'm just in this to dominate the competition in this deep, complex, finely balanced cognitive challenge that is 40K.
Well technically, if you truly want to dominate the competition you are forced to paint your minis now but I digress.
Only if you're a total scrub that can't outscore above the tiebreaker points.
kodos wrote: Answer is much more simple, Thousand Sons are the Arch Enemy of Wolves, and every Thousand Sons is a Psyker
hence why Wolves need much more anti-psyker units so that TS have no chance fighting them
who cares if Wolves would play against any other faction, that is not fluffy and no one plays battles that are not according to the background
if a 1K player is now suddenly unable to win against space wolves because of that one unit then I'd argue that unit really isn't what the problem is
But what if he takes 30 reavers and combat squads them into 6 units and puts them into impulsors and rams them forward + DS them?
You now have like up to -6 to cast as a 1k son palyer..
I'm not saying this is what you would commonly see, but if you really wanted to toilor then thats a bad day for psyker armies...
If stacking to hit modifiers are a problem, all stacking modifiers should be a problem.
Again im not saying this like some sort of meta shattering thing and is oviously a gimmick ... But the fact it can be a thing just shows how silly it is..
this is assuming it stacks, I'm inclined to say it doesn't given the SOS special ability specificly states theirs stack but the Hounds do not.
RAW doesn't say it doesn't stack so.. Who knows.. As stands under RAW I don't see why it wouldn't stack until FAQ'd otherwise.
Its kind of cool how in my head they would circle the target psyker cordoning them off while they have a seisure clawing their face off.
But I think its silly and unnecessary. Surely you just take runepriests and the relics for anti psyker stuff for characters rather than choppy stuff if you want the "fluff" of anti psyker tools... It just seems another case of having cake and eating it too. :
Fyi core rule says same named aura abilities don't stack.
If it was non-aura "pick unit, it suffers -1 to cast" that would stack.
So unless datasheet specifically says they stack(overriding core rules) no -6.
kodos wrote: Answer is much more simple, Thousand Sons are the Arch Enemy of Wolves, and every Thousand Sons is a Psyker
hence why Wolves need much more anti-psyker units so that TS have no chance fighting them
who cares if Wolves would play against any other faction, that is not fluffy and no one plays battles that are not according to the background
if a 1K player is now suddenly unable to win against space wolves because of that one unit then I'd argue that unit really isn't what the problem is
But what if he takes 30 reavers and combat squads them into 6 units and puts them into impulsors and rams them forward + DS them?
You now have like up to -6 to cast as a 1k son palyer..
I'm not saying this is what you would commonly see, but if you really wanted to toilor then thats a bad day for psyker armies...
If stacking to hit modifiers are a problem, all stacking modifiers should be a problem.
Again im not saying this like some sort of meta shattering thing and is oviously a gimmick ... But the fact it can be a thing just shows how silly it is..
this is assuming it stacks, I'm inclined to say it doesn't given the SOS special ability specificly states theirs stack but the Hounds do not.
RAW doesn't say it doesn't stack so.. Who knows.. As stands under RAW I don't see why it wouldn't stack until FAQ'd otherwise.
Its kind of cool how in my head they would circle the target psyker cordoning them off while they have a seisure clawing their face off.
But I think its silly and unnecessary. Surely you just take runepriests and the relics for anti psyker stuff for characters rather than choppy stuff if you want the "fluff" of anti psyker tools... It just seems another case of having cake and eating it too. :
Fyi core rule says same named aura abilities don't stack.
If it was non-aura "pick unit, it suffers -1 to cast" that would stack.
So unless datasheet specifically says they stack(overriding core rules) no -6.
So, comparing them to SOS, (which is IMHO the only really comparable unit)
SOS has M7, W3, BS3. S3, T3, W1 A2,
Wargear wise the unit has 5 bolt guns, or 5 flamers, or 5 Greatswords (+2S, AP -3, D3 damage)
they have psyk out grenades (S2 grenades, with d3 attacks that deal a mortal wound to a psyker or deamon on a 6 to hit)
their special rules are: re-roll wounds vs Psykers
and psykic abominations: subtract 1 from psykic tests or deny the witch for enemy models within 18 inch of the sisters (this stacks to a max of -4) and they themselves can't be targeted for psykic attacks.
over all, I'd say they are VERY VERY comparable. the sisters range in price from 12-18 PPM depending on wargear.
now, I'll preface this by noting unless I was in a heavy psyker meta I'd proably not bother with EAITHER of these two units, unless I wanted some cheap bodies for my custodes. as for what's better... honestly, assuming the Hounds have a reivers points cost and GW's not asking us to pay a stupid points cost for them, reivers are the same cost as the great sword SOS.
I THIIIINK for their points the sisters hit slightly harder on average,
the ability to switch up doctrines is pretty big news IMHO.
Agreed, but everything else seems to be anti-Xenos centric, which is what many DW players complain about. Hopefully they have some other strategems etc. that will be good against non-Xenos factions.
the ability to switch up doctrines is pretty big news IMHO.
Agreed, but everything else seems to be anti-Xenos centric, which is what many DW players complain about. Hopefully they have some other strategems etc. that will be good against non-Xenos factions.
Isn't the whole point of the Deathwatch to be anti-Xenos???
the ability to switch up doctrines is pretty big news IMHO.
Agreed, but everything else seems to be anti-Xenos centric, which is what many DW players complain about. Hopefully they have some other strategems etc. that will be good against non-Xenos factions.
well they do get access to all the core SM strats. my guess is they'll get a handfull of generic strats and a strat that can be used agaisnt each xenos race to address what is perceived as that races "thing" (apparently -1 to hits is seen as an eldar thing.. if thats the case hopefully GW'll give their core troops some basic ways to increase their penalties to hit in their codex)
the ability to switch up doctrines is pretty big news IMHO.
Agreed, but everything else seems to be anti-Xenos centric, which is what many DW players complain about. Hopefully they have some other strategems etc. that will be good against non-Xenos factions.
Isn't the whole point of the Deathwatch to be anti-Xenos???
Yes, but not having much to deal with other factions is a common complaint from DW players. I can see how that would be frustrating.
BrianDavion wrote:well they do get access to all the core SM strats. my guess is they'll get a handfull of generic strats and a strat that can be used agaisnt each xenos race to address what is perceived as that races "thing" (apparently -1 to hits is seen as an eldar thing.. if thats the case hopefully GW'll give their core troops some basic ways to increase their penalties to hit in their codex)
That's a good point, and might fix the problem, but DW players will have to decide on that.
What I find interesting is that the anti- Eldar strategem specifically calls out penalties to hit as well as "BS modifiers". Could that be how gw is going to get around the cap of -1 for minuses to hit? Give Eldar abilities that change their opponents units BS?
yukishiro1 wrote: More anti-Xenos rules for Space Marines is just what the game needs! Bravo GW, you nailed that one.
I mean, I wouldn't call it "More" as those are both modified (weakened) versions of stratagems that deathwatch already had.
the anti-eldar one used to be "shoot at an eldar unit that moved near you out of phase" and the anti-necron one was "pick one unit that you attacked to not get to make a RP roll"
the ability to switch up doctrines is pretty big news IMHO.
Agreed, but everything else seems to be anti-Xenos centric, which is what many DW players complain about. Hopefully they have some other strategems etc. that will be good against non-Xenos factions.
Isn't the whole point of the Deathwatch to be anti-Xenos???
Yes, but to use another example, an ability like this:
-This unit Re-rolls wound rolls against DAEMON units
Is much worse to add to the game than this:
-When enemy units take invulnerable saves against this unit's attacks, successful save rolls must be re-rolled
^the former rule is useless against 95% of the armies in the game, so most likely it'lll be super OP against the one army it works against. The latter rule provides you with organic strength against Daemons, who all have invulnerable saves.
Stuff that does things like:
-Ignore to-hit modifiers
-kills light infantry
-counters fast-moving or deep striking enemy units
etc
these are good ways to make Deathwatch particularly good against xenos without just giving them "reroll to hit vs xenos" on some dumb thing.
I hope stormbolters don't get SIA, they just shouldn't.
I'm also surprised that people are shocked that DW got better at killing Xenos....really?
They don't look OP which will keep the meta chasers away (hopefully), and still look interesting to run as a mono dex. Im sure there will still be a few nuggets inside the supplement.
I'm also surprised that people are shocked that DW got better at killing Xenos....really?
I didn't see shock, but I did see salt, and frankly, The salt over Hounds of Morkai is all the proof we need that some people WANT to be salty about Space Marines and will take ANY excuse they can get.
I'm also surprised that people are shocked that DW got better at killing Xenos....really?
I didn't see shock, but I did see salt, and frankly, The salt over Hounds of Morkai is all the proof we need that some people WANT to be salty about Space Marines and will take ANY excuse they can get.
I'll not derail too much but there's a handful of fairly legitimate reasons to be salty about the hounds.
Lazy kit - combat squad with a few heads
Not really needed - SW didn't really have a niche or weakness covered by them
Treads on the identity of other factions - psyker hunters in the wolves but not other armies who exist to hunt the impure/psykers/daemons
Unusual application - they're a unit that might smoke a random hq once in a while then proceed to be expensive reivers without their rules
It was just an odd move by GW that seemed a little out of touch with what people expected/wanted.
The deathwatch stuff seems fine, I think special issue ammo may end up a series of strats as a gut feeling.
And what other factions would those be whose toes the Wolves are treading on?
Assassins have the Culexus, Sisters of Silence are a full faction whose whole schtick is their anti-Psyker stuff, and that's basically all there is aside from Inquisitors from Ordo Hereticus and the Black Templars with their massive hate-boner for Witches...but they have a massive hate-boner for practically anything.
^the former rule is useless against 95% of the armies in the game, so most likely it'lll be super OP against the one army it works against. The latter rule provides you with organic strength against Daemons, who all have invulnerable saves.
.
It is super op only if gw writers are idiots. Which albeit could be case. Nothing requires stratagem to be op here. You are paying nothing for stratagem you don't use. Necrons don't get worse if they face faction they can't use all stratagems either. They are free toolboxes you use if you need. If not you are no worse than if you didn't have that stratagem.
Another thing if you have special rule on unit. That runs into worthless/too good issue
Edit: The anti psyker reavers being excelent example.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The new Phobos Killteam implies that Deathwatch can get more than three Eliminators in a squad. We can't have that here! There's only THREE in a box!
Unless things drastically change for the Codex the primary draw of Kill Teams is to circumvent model or FoC restrictions. You can put up to five Eliminators or Eradicators into a single troops slot for instance.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The new Phobos Killteam implies that Deathwatch can get more than three Eliminators in a squad. We can't have that here! There's only THREE in a box!
Same can be said for Outriders in Fortis Kill Teams.
People is allready discussing about spamming <infantry> keyword outriders with obsect after Combat Squating them to separate them from intercessors so... doubt it.
Kanluwen wrote: And what other factions would those be whose toes the Wolves are treading on?
Assassins have the Culexus, Sisters of Silence are a full faction whose whole schtick is their anti-Psyker stuff, and that's basically all there is aside from Inquisitors from Ordo Hereticus and the Black Templars with their massive hate-boner for Witches...but they have a massive hate-boner for practically anything.
Sisters of battle are the militant arm for the ordo hereticus but don't have any dedicated psychic hunters, nor do grey knights. Two factions based around hunting psykers/mutants. As you say black templars hate psykers more and would be a better target for an anti psyker unit given they can't have their own from a design space perspective.
Even if you disagree, it serves to stand wolves certainly have no more reason for a dedicated psyker shut down unit than any other, which still leaves it somewhat odd.
Galas wrote: People is allready discussing about spamming <infantry> keyword outriders with obsect after Combat Squating them to separate them from intercessors so... doubt it.
What's interesting is that there isn't anything in the article saying such a thing is a definite option - at least, not that I saw. There's a box confirming new units as available, but not necessarily new Kill Team members.
We do have an "unknown" Kill Team at this point, admittedly - possibly a Gravis one, given the introduction of the Spectrus KT for Phobos armour. I also wonder in the Reiver will get pulled from the... Fortis(?) KT (sorry, my book is in another room) so it can sit in the Spectrus one.
Question - is "Xenopurge" the worst name for a psychic discipline to date?
Slayer - It wouldn't surprise me if there is a 3 model cap on the number of Eliminators in a Spectrus KT.
Galas wrote: People is allready discussing about spamming <infantry> keyword outriders with obsect after Combat Squating them to separate them from intercessors so... doubt it.
The english never let foreigners play their game An english person is like..."Well it's a bike...so It can not be infantree you wanka."
Why are people honestly expecting a cap? There is zero indication that anything of the like is in the pipes. It would be odd to release the index and then suddenly have additional restrictions on unit composition.
I feel like the people commenting never read the index, it has 4 kill teams in it.
Well considering the rules specifically say that they are infantry I would ask the English what the words in their language actually mean.
Kanluwen wrote: And what other factions would those be whose toes the Wolves are treading on?
Assassins have the Culexus, Sisters of Silence are a full faction whose whole schtick is their anti-Psyker stuff, and that's basically all there is aside from Inquisitors from Ordo Hereticus and the Black Templars with their massive hate-boner for Witches...but they have a massive hate-boner for practically anything.
Sisters of battle are the militant arm for the ordo hereticus but don't have any dedicated psychic hunters, nor do grey knights. Two factions based around hunting psykers/mutants. As you say black templars hate psykers more and would be a better target for an anti psyker unit given they can't have their own from a design space perspective.
Even if you disagree, it serves to stand wolves certainly have no more reason for a dedicated psyker shut down unit than any other, which still leaves it somewhat odd.
Wolves are the ones who enforced the Nikea Edict. There's literally two whole novels about it in the Horus Heresy line. They certainly have just as much reason to be anti-psyker as the Sisters of Battle do.
Grey Knights don't have dedicated psychic hunters...but they're based around hunting daemons. Once things reach a point that the Grey Knights are there? It's basically endgame.
Sisters of Battle are the militant arm for Ordo Hereticus--but they aren't dedicated witchhunters. There's definitely an argument to be made that they do have a bit of flavor there, but it seems to be more in the Condemnor Boltgun than anything else.
Kanluwen wrote: And what other factions would those be whose toes the Wolves are treading on?
Assassins have the Culexus, Sisters of Silence are a full faction whose whole schtick is their anti-Psyker stuff, and that's basically all there is aside from Inquisitors from Ordo Hereticus and the Black Templars with their massive hate-boner for Witches...but they have a massive hate-boner for practically anything.
Sisters of battle are the militant arm for the ordo hereticus but don't have any dedicated psychic hunters, nor do grey knights. Two factions based around hunting psykers/mutants. As you say black templars hate psykers more and would be a better target for an anti psyker unit given they can't have their own from a design space perspective.
Even if you disagree, it serves to stand wolves certainly have no more reason for a dedicated psyker shut down unit than any other, which still leaves it somewhat odd.
Space Wolves have a pretty big grudge with Magnus and the Thousand Sons...
Kanluwen wrote: And what other factions would those be whose toes the Wolves are treading on?
Assassins have the Culexus, Sisters of Silence are a full faction whose whole schtick is their anti-Psyker stuff, and that's basically all there is aside from Inquisitors from Ordo Hereticus and the Black Templars with their massive hate-boner for Witches...but they have a massive hate-boner for practically anything.
Sisters of battle are the militant arm for the ordo hereticus but don't have any dedicated psychic hunters, nor do grey knights. Two factions based around hunting psykers/mutants. As you say black templars hate psykers more and would be a better target for an anti psyker unit given they can't have their own from a design space perspective.
Even if you disagree, it serves to stand wolves certainly have no more reason for a dedicated psyker shut down unit than any other, which still leaves it somewhat odd.
Space Wolves have a pretty big grudge with Magnus and the Thousand Sons...
And WE/BT have a big grudge against all psykers period. Were are their special units?
Kanluwen wrote: And what other factions would those be whose toes the Wolves are treading on?
Assassins have the Culexus, Sisters of Silence are a full faction whose whole schtick is their anti-Psyker stuff, and that's basically all there is aside from Inquisitors from Ordo Hereticus and the Black Templars with their massive hate-boner for Witches...but they have a massive hate-boner for practically anything.
Sisters of battle are the militant arm for the ordo hereticus but don't have any dedicated psychic hunters, nor do grey knights. Two factions based around hunting psykers/mutants. As you say black templars hate psykers more and would be a better target for an anti psyker unit given they can't have their own from a design space perspective.
Even if you disagree, it serves to stand wolves certainly have no more reason for a dedicated psyker shut down unit than any other, which still leaves it somewhat odd.
Space Wolves have a pretty big grudge with Magnus and the Thousand Sons...
And WE/BT have a big grudge against all psykers period. Were are their special units?
In their unreleased 9th edition codex/supplement...
Kanluwen wrote: And what other factions would those be whose toes the Wolves are treading on?
Assassins have the Culexus, Sisters of Silence are a full faction whose whole schtick is their anti-Psyker stuff, and that's basically all there is aside from Inquisitors from Ordo Hereticus and the Black Templars with their massive hate-boner for Witches...but they have a massive hate-boner for practically anything.
Sisters of battle are the militant arm for the ordo hereticus but don't have any dedicated psychic hunters, nor do grey knights. Two factions based around hunting psykers/mutants. As you say black templars hate psykers more and would be a better target for an anti psyker unit given they can't have their own from a design space perspective.
Even if you disagree, it serves to stand wolves certainly have no more reason for a dedicated psyker shut down unit than any other, which still leaves it somewhat odd.
Space Wolves have a pretty big grudge with Magnus and the Thousand Sons...
Ultramarines have a grudge with word bearers who summon lots, with nids who have a psychic blanket. Death guard have a grudge against the thousand sons, magnus and generally dislike psykers. Black templars hate psykers. World eaters and khorne daemons view sorcery as cowardly and hate it. Sisters hunt down rogue psykers in imperial populace under the Inquisitors guidance.
Lots of armies hate various psykers, none of them really have a unit devoted to it, it doesn't make sense.
If they'd just been primaris wolf scouts with some random special rules around hunting, that would raise far fewer eyebrows.
Kanluwen wrote: Sisters of Battle are the militant arm for Ordo Hereticus--but they aren't dedicated witchhunters. There's definitely an argument to be made that they do have a bit of flavor there, but it seems to be more in the Condemnor Boltgun than anything else.
lol that thing . Now do Black Templars and World Eaters, I'm all hears .
Kanluwen wrote: Sisters of Battle are the militant arm for Ordo Hereticus--but they aren't dedicated witchhunters. There's definitely an argument to be made that they do have a bit of flavor there, but it seems to be more in the Condemnor Boltgun than anything else.
lol that thing .
Now do Black Templars and World Eaters, I'm all hears .
why ? the answer's clear, we are allready back to seeing WE players play red painted SW because frankly that is about the only way you'd get something decent as a WE player...
We are at a point were the supposed unorderly individualistic and narcistic CSM have less customizability and options to play according to the respective subfactions background then SM , a supposedly far more homogenous faction overall with subfaction deviancy in there even getting lowered considering all accepted primaris.
Kanluwen wrote: Sisters of Battle are the militant arm for Ordo Hereticus--but they aren't dedicated witchhunters. There's definitely an argument to be made that they do have a bit of flavor there, but it seems to be more in the Condemnor Boltgun than anything else.
lol that thing .
Now do Black Templars and World Eaters, I'm all hears .
why ? the answer's clear, we are allready back to seeing WE players play red painted SW because frankly that is about the only way you'd get something decent as a WE player...
We are at a point were the supposed unorderly individualistic and narcistic CSM have less customizability and options to play according to the respective subfactions background then SM , a supposedly far more homogenous faction overall with subfaction deviancy in there even getting lowered considering all accepted primaris.
yeah, we are at that point again once more.
I chuckled at this, but I dare say you're probably right.
Leth wrote: Why are people honestly expecting a cap? There is zero indication that anything of the like is in the pipes. It would be odd to release the index and then suddenly have additional restrictions on unit composition.
I feel like the people commenting never read the index, it has 4 kill teams in it.
Well considering the rules specifically say that they are infantry I would ask the English what the words in their language actually mean.
Actually, that's a fair point - I didn't read the DW Index, especially not looking for new units when they had a Supplement coming up. At best, I thought it'd maintain existing units, not add new ones.
I'm doubly surprised to find Cassius as a character in there - that's a gap I didn't think they'd ever fill.
Kill Teams read oddly in there - I think I need to grab my copy of the DW Codex and read them next to each other to see if I'm following it.
Also, wow - Kill Team Cassius, with both characters, is 23 PL on its own? Ouch.
Kanluwen wrote: Sisters of Battle are the militant arm for Ordo Hereticus--but they aren't dedicated witchhunters. There's definitely an argument to be made that they do have a bit of flavor there, but it seems to be more in the Condemnor Boltgun than anything else.
lol that thing .
Now do Black Templars and World Eaters, I'm all hears .
why ? the answer's clear, we are allready back to seeing WE players play red painted SW because frankly that is about the only way you'd get something decent as a WE player...
We are at a point were the supposed unorderly individualistic and narcistic CSM have less customizability and options to play according to the respective subfactions background then SM , a supposedly far more homogenous faction overall with subfaction deviancy in there even getting lowered considering all accepted primaris.
yeah, we are at that point again once more.
I chuckled at this, but I dare say you're probably right.
i mean it isn't even a new phenomenon, WE players were some years ago in the same situation --> 5th broken SW or 4th CSM dex isn't even a choice.
except longterm it damages a faction and it's identity, leads to further player conglomeration AND by virtue of that to a more boring more restricted game.
Kanluwen wrote: And what other factions would those be whose toes the Wolves are treading on?
Assassins have the Culexus, Sisters of Silence are a full faction whose whole schtick is their anti-Psyker stuff, and that's basically all there is aside from Inquisitors from Ordo Hereticus and the Black Templars with their massive hate-boner for Witches...but they have a massive hate-boner for practically anything.
Sisters of battle are the militant arm for the ordo hereticus but don't have any dedicated psychic hunters, nor do grey knights. Two factions based around hunting psykers/mutants. As you say black templars hate psykers more and would be a better target for an anti psyker unit given they can't have their own from a design space perspective.
Even if you disagree, it serves to stand wolves certainly have no more reason for a dedicated psyker shut down unit than any other, which still leaves it somewhat odd.
Space Wolves have a pretty big grudge with Magnus and the Thousand Sons...
Ultramarines have a grudge with word bearers who summon lots, with nids who have a psychic blanket. Death guard have a grudge against the thousand sons, magnus and generally dislike psykers. Black templars hate psykers. World eaters and khorne daemons view sorcery as cowardly and hate it. Sisters hunt down rogue psykers in imperial populace under the Inquisitors guidance.
Lots of armies hate various psykers, none of them really have a unit devoted to it, it doesn't make sense.
If they'd just been primaris wolf scouts with some random special rules around hunting, that would raise far fewer eyebrows.
Ultramarines have been more defined by their grudge with Tyranids over the past few editions then with the word bearers. and specificly where given an anti-tyranid unit in the form of tyrannic war veterns.
If they'd just been primaris wolf scouts with some random special rules around hunting, that would raise far fewer eyebrows.
Why can't they have some new fluff that happens to give them an anti-psyker unit though? Fluff evolves, and if they can't make a slight course change left or right sometimes, and have to be tunnelled further into whatever their existing lore is, so that the psykeriest armies are always the guys that get psykers, and the shooty armies are always expanded with big guns, that means the wolfiest armies just get to a point where they literally have guys riding around on giant wolves. That would be hilariously stupid and bad, wouldn't it? It also leads to stuff like Matt Wards legendary Codex BA which included, quote -
Ward devises new weapons and abilities for the blood angels, giving them evocative names like blood fists, blood talons, blood reavers, blood croziuses, blood lances, blood boil, bloodshard bolts, and bloodstrike missiles.
How about we don't do that, and let the Wolves have some Psyker hunters, and maybe give the Imperial Fists, I dunno, an decent assault unit occasionally? (I'm not saying they don't have this already, frankly I don't know, but your argument seems to preclude the possibility of this, based on established lore and an apparent preference for Flanderisation).
Kanluwen wrote: And what other factions would those be whose toes the Wolves are treading on?
Assassins have the Culexus, Sisters of Silence are a full faction whose whole schtick is their anti-Psyker stuff, and that's basically all there is aside from Inquisitors from Ordo Hereticus and the Black Templars with their massive hate-boner for Witches...but they have a massive hate-boner for practically anything.
Sisters of battle are the militant arm for the ordo hereticus but don't have any dedicated psychic hunters, nor do grey knights. Two factions based around hunting psykers/mutants. As you say black templars hate psykers more and would be a better target for an anti psyker unit given they can't have their own from a design space perspective.
Even if you disagree, it serves to stand wolves certainly have no more reason for a dedicated psyker shut down unit than any other, which still leaves it somewhat odd.
Space Wolves have a pretty big grudge with Magnus and the Thousand Sons...
Ultramarines have a grudge with word bearers who summon lots, with nids who have a psychic blanket. Death guard have a grudge against the thousand sons, magnus and generally dislike psykers. Black templars hate psykers. World eaters and khorne daemons view sorcery as cowardly and hate it. Sisters hunt down rogue psykers in imperial populace under the Inquisitors guidance.
Lots of armies hate various psykers, none of them really have a unit devoted to it, it doesn't make sense.
If they'd just been primaris wolf scouts with some random special rules around hunting, that would raise far fewer eyebrows.
Ultramarines have been more defined by their grudge with Tyranids over the past few editions then with the word bearers. and specificly where given an anti-tyranid unit in the form of tyrannic war veterns.
Whilst true, they've recently been pitching the wolves against orks in the fluff and releases for the last few years as much as anything else.
If they'd just been primaris wolf scouts with some random special rules around hunting, that would raise far fewer eyebrows.
Why can't they have some new fluff that happens to give them an anti-psyker unit though? Fluff evolves, and if they can't make a slight course change left or right sometimes, and have to be tunnelled further into whatever their existing lore is, so that the psykeriest armies are always the guys that get psykers, and the shooty armies are always expanded with big guns, that means the wolfiest armies just get to a point where they literally have guys riding around on giant wolves. That would be hilariously stupid and bad, wouldn't it? It also leads to stuff like Matt Wards legendary Codex BA which included, quote -
Ward devises new weapons and abilities for the blood angels, giving them evocative names like blood fists, blood talons, blood reavers, blood croziuses, blood lances, blood boil, bloodshard bolts, and bloodstrike missiles.
How about we don't do that, and let the Wolves have some Psyker hunters, and maybe give the Imperial Fists, I dunno, an decent assault unit occasionally? (I'm not saying they don't have this already, frankly I don't know, but your argument seems to preclude the possibility of this, based on established lore and an apparent preference for Flanderisation).
Of course they can, but it would seem more prudent to put those sorts of units in armies whose existing fluff supports it but don't have them surely?
Either way I don't want to derail further, different strokes for different folks.
I'm saying it's by no means an egregious addition, it's supported by fluff, and if we only accept witch hunters into the actual Ordo Hereticus, we eventually end up with Thunderwolf cavalry.
Did anyone else notice that that new DW psychic power lowers attacks of an enemy unit, but does NOT have a cap on it? If the unit you are using it on only has one attack, they go down to ZERO attacks.
cuda1179 wrote: Did anyone else notice that that new DW psychic power lowers attacks of an enemy unit, but does NOT have a cap on it? If the unit you are using it on only has one attack, they go down to ZERO attacks.
general rules note you can only reduce something down to 1. IIRC
cuda1179 wrote: Did anyone else notice that that new DW psychic power lowers attacks of an enemy unit, but does NOT have a cap on it? If the unit you are using it on only has one attack, they go down to ZERO attacks.
general rules note you can only reduce something down to 1. IIRC
Specific stats, but correct for attacks.
Page 203 main rule book, Modifying Characteristics; "Regardless of the source, the Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Leadership characteristics of a model can never be modified below 1."
Which realistically leaves Movement that can be modified below 0 (and Wounds, but that's obvious).
So, biggest thing i am waiting on more detail for now, is the Mission Tactics rule.
How does it work when you have 1 DW detachment and 1 SM detachment... Because the way i am reading how it affects your "army" is making me think it is going to be busted for things like DW/WS and DW/RG mixes.
Kdash wrote: So, biggest thing i am waiting on more detail for now, is the Mission Tactics rule.
How does it work when you have 1 DW detachment and 1 SM detachment... Because the way i am reading how it affects your "army" is making me think it is going to be busted for things like DW/WS and DW/RG mixes.
If the Deathwatch specific modification to Doctrines is worded analogously to the parent Doctrines rule, it will only work if all your detachments are Deathwatch. So a combined generic/custom chapter and Deathwatch would still be all-Astartes and so get normal Doctrines but no Deathwatch switcheroo.
Yeah, seems like Mission Tactics is the Death Watch "super-doctrine".
Ultramarines get "counts as stationary" in tactical
White Scars get "+1 cc-damage if charging" in assault
Death Watch get "you can do doctrine-switcheroo".
Sunny Side Up wrote: Yeah, seems like Mission Tactics is the Death Watch "super-doctrine".
Ultramarines get "counts as stationary" in tactical
White Scars get "+1 cc-damage if charging" in assault
Death Watch get "you can do doctrine-switcheroo".
I haven't gotten to play since 9th edition, but based on what I've seen in batreps, being able to move Devastator Doctrine to turn 2 or Assault to turn 1 or 2 is pretty sweet, and the more I think about it, the more I believe it's even better than some (not all) of the other chapters' super doctrines.
There's so many times where I've seen turn 1 devastator be wasted due to line of sight or range, or 1st/2nd turn charges that could have really used assault doctrine.
dan2026 wrote: I wonder if Slannesh busting loose in AoS will coinside with a new Daemons codex.
Given that the Slaaneshi stuff we've seen so far appears to be for mortals, not daemons, I think EC making their long-overdue appearance is more likely
Yikes... so other than the codexes which are 8 copies every one of the upcoming stuff this weekend is limited to 2 copies per store. Combat Patrol, Outriders, Ghaz, etc. a store will only get 2 of each.
Wayniac wrote: Yikes... so other than the codexes which are 8 copies every one of the upcoming stuff this weekend is limited to 2 copies per store. Combat Patrol, Outriders, Ghaz, etc. a store will only get 2 of each.
Wayniac wrote: Yikes... so other than the codexes which are 8 copies every one of the upcoming stuff this weekend is limited to 2 copies per store. Combat Patrol, Outriders, Ghaz, etc. a store will only get 2 of each.
Yeah, they're trying to fight shortages. The necron codex is out of stock in the US.
Doomstalkers, too, which is personally aggravating. I preordered one, and... it didn't show up (everything else did, it just wasn't in the box). Its now out of stock so they couldn't send a replacement. [Got a 'voucher refund' which isn't ideal, but works for a future order and gets me out of dealing with their Custserv shortfalls, so I can live with them not taking my money and telling me to go feth myself]
Anyway, Hexmarks have been in and out of stock (currently back in), several other new kits are out (void dragon, techmarine and bike chaplain), and they never did get all the older necron stuff back into stock... its kind of a mess. And apparently only the gods of the sea know what's happening to Australian shipments.
So limits make a lot of sense to me. It isn't great, but their system is clearly stretched.
changemod wrote: Would special issue ammo being reduced in both effect and not applied universally to (non heavy) bolt weapons be another example of GW overbalancing?
The existence of a 2 wound ammo is a buff amongst the other reductions mind you.
There's a few things to note here that I'd say makes the SIA better overall:
You no longer have to choose between Bolter Discipline and SIA
Dragon Fire bolts ignore ALL cover, rather than just a +1 to hit to enemies in cover. That's much better, especially against anything with camo cloaks
The range increase for kraken rounds is no longer shorter for pistols, so if you want to cap a guardsman with a bolt pistol outside of their double tap range you can
There's no longer a AP cap for Kraken rounds, so you can get a bolt rifle up to ap -3 in Tac doctrine
There's no longer a AP cap for Kraken rounds, so you can get a bolt rifle up to ap -3 in Tac doctrine
Which would be nice if Bolt Rifles could actually use SIA. They sacrifice their rate of fire to get to that AP level because the new strat makes the weapon Heavy 1.
Quasistellar wrote: Yeah overall SIA seems better for those that can use it.
Which is the fundamental problem. Only one datasheet in the entire army can make use of SIA in any meaningful capacity.
This in particular, combined with the doctrine-choosing shenanigans, I feel is going to be huge in what is still currently very much a Marine meta.
It really wont be. The Veteran Stalker Boltgun does the anti-marine job far better, and doesnt consume gobs of CP to operate. Outside of niche Heavy Intercessor or Phobos Captain shenanigans, you're not going to see primaris SIA.
changemod wrote: Would special issue ammo being reduced in both effect and not applied universally to (non heavy) bolt weapons be another example of GW overbalancing?
The existence of a 2 wound ammo is a buff amongst the other reductions mind you.
There's a few things to note here that I'd say makes the SIA better overall:
You no longer have to choose between Bolter Discipline and SIA
Dragon Fire bolts ignore ALL cover, rather than just a +1 to hit to enemies in cover. That's much better, especially against anything with camo cloaks
The range increase for kraken rounds is no longer shorter for pistols, so if you want to cap a guardsman with a bolt pistol outside of their double tap range you can
There's no longer a AP cap for Kraken rounds, so you can get a bolt rifle up to ap -3 in Tac doctrine
The only nerf is the hellfire round
Unless there are units that actually have the rule, the really big nerf is its two CP each time you want to use it, and makes the guns heavy 1.
On that note, do we have any idea of what actually gets SIA natively?
On that note, do we have any idea of what actually gets SIA natively?
So far as we know, basic boltguns, the Stalker Pattern Boltgun (not the Stalker Bolt Rifle) and the boltgun profile of combi-weapons taken by Veterans or Proteus Kill Teams.
On that note, do we have any idea of what actually gets SIA natively?
So far as we know, basic boltguns, the Stalker Pattern Boltgun (not the Stalker Bolt Rifle) and the boltgun profile of combi-weapons taken by Veterans or Proteus Kill Teams.
I take it veterans can’t take the simpler special issue gun sternguard get?
I’m glad that they’ve at least kept the “Deathwatch veterans (the unit) can be made from any combination of deathwatch veterans (the kit) and sternguard veteran wargear” so that everyone’s storm bolter conversions haven’t been erased from existence.
Even if they don’t like that lots of people were taking those storm bolters on relatively cheap and efficient veterans for spec ammo purposes though, that still leaves more uppriced terminators kinda in the lurch without it.
So they screwed up Special Ammo again. Nice to know Intercessors were just TOO broken with it. I bet Storm Bolters won't get it now either because of complainers mad that Deathwatch actually did something.
Is GW having production issues again? I've seen two different retailers make posts about limited availability of the releases for next week. Both said they're limited to eight copies of the SW and DW codex, and two boxes of Combat Patrol and the other model releases.
It seems odd to have such low limits on a launch day. I know Nottingham is going under stricter lockdowns again, but presumably, these products have been in the channel for months already.
flaherty wrote: Is GW having production issues again? I've seen two different retailers make posts about limited availability of the releases for next week. Both said they're limited to eight copies of the SW and DW codex, and two boxes of Combat Patrol and the other model releases.
It seems odd to have such low limits on a launch day. I know Nottingham is going under stricter lockdowns again, but presumably, these products have been in the channel for months already.
Any sense for what's going on?
A global pandemic
GW's factory and packing had several months shutdown earlier in the year and a huge stock dry-up during that same time. So they had a huge hump just to get what was out back on the shelf. Additionally with the covid work restrictions they can't produce at full capacity (a capacity that as having issues before lockdown). They also committed to a second print of Indomitus and they might well have Christmas bundle boxes in production as well. Both eating up big production slots. Coupled to that its clear that there's some international issues with shipping product out. So even if they can produce more stock it appears to be taking longer to ship world wide. This might well mean they've had to push things like Christmas bundles earlier for overseas regions to get the stock there in time for that winter sales period.
So stock is being limited. The system just can't cope with the high demand and lower packing/shipping/production aspects. So yep limits are bound to happen as is stuff running out of stock more quickly than normal. It's likely a situation we will remain in until such time as Corona work restrictions are lifted. So likely for the rest of 2020 and a good portion of 2021 (I'm aware that several major UK events have already cancelled 2021 mid-year events).
flaherty wrote: Is GW having production issues again? I've seen two different retailers make posts about limited availability of the releases for next week. Both said they're limited to eight copies of the SW and DW codex, and two boxes of Combat Patrol and the other model releases.
It seems odd to have such low limits on a launch day. I know Nottingham is going under stricter lockdowns again, but presumably, these products have been in the channel for months already.
Any sense for what's going on?
It certainly seems that way.
I contacted customer services this afternoon to see if Blackstone Fortress had been discontinued, and they said that they are making more copies and hopefully ready before Christmas. Making an educated guess, I would say that meeting demand for back orders of Indomitus is taking its toll. For example, Adeptus Titanicus' newest expansion book has had no plastic kit release to accompany it, so sacrifices are being made.
That's not what happened, and it has nothing to do with the recent lockdown changes. They didn't announce till the last minute that they weren't giving stores as many copies as they asked for, and provided no explanation in the email announcing that they weren't going to be delivering a lot of what stores had requested.
The amount of product in the GW warehouse didn't change between opening the stuff up for stores to order and then saying they weren't going to actually let stores have as much as they wanted, that was just GW deciding to keep more of it for itself to push people to use its web store.
It's basically the same thing as happened for Indomitus, GW used the store orders to gauge interest then decided to keep stuff back for itself because it'd rather get the higher profit margin from selling from its own web store.
GW is definitely having trouble keeping stuff in stock, and that is indirectly related to why they decided to limit orders. But it's not as innocent as "we just couldn't make enough," if it was they would have known that ahead of time and limited store orders ahead of time, not at the last minute.
Wow! The budding Deathwatch and Space Wolf newbie only has to pay £132.50 to get up and running with a small game. Oh! Must not also forget a copy of the rule book for the amazing price of £40!
Games Workshop, you've done it again. What is the secret to your success?
SamusDrake wrote: Wow! The budding Deathwatch and Space Wolf newbie only has to pay £132.50 to get up and running with a small game. Oh! Must not also forget a copy of the rule book for the amazing price of £40!
Games Workshop, you've done it again. What is the secret to your success?
SamusDrake wrote: Wow! The budding Deathwatch and Space Wolf newbie only has to pay £132.50 to get up and running with a small game. Oh! Must not also forget a copy of the rule book for the amazing price of £40!
Games Workshop, you've done it again. What is the secret to your success?
Best miniature wargaming rules on the market.
Of course!
I'm so glad that they are tightly written and there will be no need for erratas or faqs. Why, Games Workshop should advertise them as a "highly detailed rule book by Games Workshop" to be inline with their models from Citedal Miniatures!
Mr_Rose wrote: Yeah, Nottingham just went into Level 3 restrictions which isn’t quite as bad as full lock-down but does drop a big hammer on factory work.
Tier 3 does not effect work if you can not work from home - you go as normal.
It may reduce the stupid selfish idiots going out and getting drunk but alot of people will be working as "normal"
SamusDrake wrote: Wow! The budding Deathwatch and Space Wolf newbie only has to pay £132.50 to get up and running with a small game. Oh! Must not also forget a copy of the rule book for the amazing price of £40!
Games Workshop, you've done it again. What is the secret to your success?
Best miniature wargaming rules on the market.
Of course!
I'm so glad that they are tightly written and there will be no need for erratas or faqs. Why, Games Workshop should advertise them as a "highly detailed rule book by Games Workshop" to be inline with their models from Citedal Miniatures!
No rules set is error free, its impossible for anything to be perfect on release.
Mr_Rose wrote: Yeah, Nottingham just went into Level 3 restrictions which isn’t quite as bad as full lock-down but does drop a big hammer on factory work.
Tier 3 does not effect work if you can not work from home - you go as normal.
It may reduce the stupid selfish idiots going out and getting drunk but alot of people will be working as "normal"
UK is considering Tier 4 national which might well see a lot of additional restrictions. Though its more likely to focus on retail and the highstreet and social gathering events. So most likely we'll see all non-essential shops close like last time, but we might not see business close down. Which would make sense since it seems that we are getting more infection rising from people going out and doing social things rather than through work and where it is work related its often at factories where staff distance at work, but are then bussed home and live in very dense communities. At least most of the factory situations seem to have gone that way
So GW might or might not be ok, their stores will likely close; the factory side might keep going; but at the same time we might well see shipping and such heavily impacted once again like before.
SamusDrake wrote: Wow! The budding Deathwatch and Space Wolf newbie only has to pay £132.50 to get up and running with a small game. Oh! Must not also forget a copy of the rule book for the amazing price of £40!
Games Workshop, you've done it again. What is the secret to your success?
Best miniature wargaming rules on the market.
Of course!
I'm so glad that they are tightly written and there will be no need for erratas or faqs. Why, Games Workshop should advertise them as a "highly detailed rule book by Games Workshop" to be inline with their models from Citedal Miniatures!
No rules set is error free, its impossible for anything to be perfect on release.
Of course nobody is asking perfect. But even 20% to perfect is too much to ask from gw. But guess since perfect is impossible you are happy regardless of quality. Gw can but out totally unreadable book and you buy anyway.
SamusDrake wrote: Wow! The budding Deathwatch and Space Wolf newbie only has to pay £132.50 to get up and running with a small game. Oh! Must not also forget a copy of the rule book for the amazing price of £40!
Games Workshop, you've done it again. What is the secret to your success?
Best miniature wargaming rules on the market.
Of course!
I'm so glad that they are tightly written and there will be no need for erratas or faqs. Why, Games Workshop should advertise them as a "highly detailed rule book by Games Workshop" to be inline with their models from Citedal Miniatures!
No rules set is error free, its impossible for anything to be perfect on release.
Of course nobody is asking perfect. But even 20% to perfect is too much to ask from gw. But guess since perfect is impossible you are happy regardless of quality. Gw can but out totally unreadable book and you buy anyway.
Please quantify what 20% perfect is in this context. But if you struggle to read GW publications you may have visual impediments.
Instead I buy books that I use, enjoy and allow me to partake in a hobby that is dear to me. If I don't buy them I can't play with the latest rules and struggle to get games in.
That doesn't lower the ammount of criticism that should be levelled against GW's ruleswriting though...
If anything it should throw up questions wether we should be okay paying more for rules that didn't increase in quality.
Not Online!!! wrote: That doesn't lower the ammount of criticism that should be levelled against GW's ruleswriting though...
If anything it should throw up questions wether we should be okay paying more for rules that didn't increase in quality.
That's a fair and reasonable statement, but having a faq or errata free release isn't a fair benchmark for a good release. Being free of typos, obvious errors etc. Is an increase of quality in one sense. The quality of the rules is a different topic.
It can be a high quality book with low quality content and vice versa. People seem to think that it has to be cheap, perfectly balanced rules wise and error free to even be considered reasonable.
Not Online!!! wrote: That doesn't lower the ammount of criticism that should be levelled against GW's ruleswriting though...
If anything it should throw up questions wether we should be okay paying more for rules that didn't increase in quality.
That's a fair and reasonable statement, but having a faq or errata free release isn't a fair benchmark for a good release. Being free of typos, obvious errors etc. Is an increase of quality in one sense. The quality of the rules is a different topic.
I use translated books, let^s just say, that an editor would go a long way, regardless off content OR quality of the writing, stuff like missing warlord traits should not happen.
It can be a high quality book with low quality content and vice versa. People seem to think that it has to be cheap, perfectly balanced rules wise and error free to even be considered reasonable.
The issue is, imo atleast, that GW is one of the last TG companies selling you rules, rules which mechanically aren't superior for the price, comparatively to free rules downloads other companies offer.
I also don't think the demand is for flawless, as pointed out.
I even think especially the more competitve minded players wouldn't mind to pay for the ruleset , if it indeed were better balanced. With the price beeing associated with a more thourough playtesting phase.
Also i find it unacceptable that GW can sell what is a balance patch in the form of CA.
So yes , as a custommer that also is lucky and has a diverse TG scene, opportunity cost becomes an issue especially in regards to rules quality, some may not have that luxury, since 40k is all that is played locally, but that doesn't change what is now industry standard with the exception of GW and therefore the demmands that creates.
Not Online!!! wrote: That doesn't lower the ammount of criticism that should be levelled against GW's ruleswriting though...
If anything it should throw up questions wether we should be okay paying more for rules that didn't increase in quality.
That's a fair and reasonable statement, but having a faq or errata free release isn't a fair benchmark for a good release. Being free of typos, obvious errors etc. Is an increase of quality in one sense. The quality of the rules is a different topic.
I use translated books, let^s just say, that an editor would go a long way, regardless off content OR quality of the writing, stuff like missing warlord traits should not happen.
It can be a high quality book with low quality content and vice versa. People seem to think that it has to be cheap, perfectly balanced rules wise and error free to even be considered reasonable.
The issue is, imo atleast, that GW is one of the last TG companies selling you rules, rules which mechanically aren't superior for the price, comparatively to free rules downloads other companies offer.
I also don't think the demand is for flawless, as pointed out.
I even think especially the more competitve minded players wouldn't mind to pay for the ruleset , if it indeed were better balanced. With the price beeing associated with a more thourough playtesting phase.
Also i find it unacceptable that GW can sell what is a balance patch in the form of CA.
So yes , as a custommer that also is lucky and has a diverse TG scene, opportunity cost becomes an issue especially in regards to rules quality, some may not have that luxury, since 40k is all that is played locally, but that doesn't change what is now industry standard with the exception of GW and therefore the demmands that creates.
All very correct and fair, nobody will disagree that an increase is quality of rules and reductions of errors is bad. I just take objection to the usual dakka kneejerking like tneva did with the "omg rules are horrid go pirate, they're illegible burning dumpster fires you gw white knight shill" style reaction.
other companies have realised that it is easier and cheaper for them to have online rules and keep them up to date
for the main reason that GW is the only company that is able to sell those things were other companies already get bad press for giving them away for free
anyone else is bad because they needed to add a free update in the first place to fix issues that were impossible to track in the beginning
with GW, people are happy to pay to get mistakes corrected that were obvious from the start and praise them for selling the stuff
Mr_Rose wrote: Yeah, Nottingham just went into Level 3 restrictions which isn’t quite as bad as full lock-down but does drop a big hammer on factory work.
Tier 3 does not effect work if you can not work from home - you go as normal.
It may reduce the stupid selfish idiots going out and getting drunk but alot of people will be working as "normal"
It's still likely that GW has imposed limitations of their own on how their workers in production are working, like my company has. Not everyone is fine with having their entire production line infected with COVID-19, be it because of having a conscience or because of financial reasons.
Not Online!!! wrote: That doesn't lower the ammount of criticism that should be levelled against GW's ruleswriting though...
If anything it should throw up questions wether we should be okay paying more for rules that didn't increase in quality.
That's a fair and reasonable statement, but having a faq or errata free release isn't a fair benchmark for a good release. Being free of typos, obvious errors etc. Is an increase of quality in one sense. The quality of the rules is a different topic.
I use translated books, let^s just say, that an editor would go a long way, regardless off content OR quality of the writing, stuff like missing warlord traits should not happen.
It can be a high quality book with low quality content and vice versa. People seem to think that it has to be cheap, perfectly balanced rules wise and error free to even be considered reasonable.
The issue is, imo atleast, that GW is one of the last TG companies selling you rules, rules which mechanically aren't superior for the price, comparatively to free rules downloads other companies offer.
I also don't think the demand is for flawless, as pointed out.
I even think especially the more competitve minded players wouldn't mind to pay for the ruleset , if it indeed were better balanced. With the price beeing associated with a more thourough playtesting phase.
Also i find it unacceptable that GW can sell what is a balance patch in the form of CA.
So yes , as a custommer that also is lucky and has a diverse TG scene, opportunity cost becomes an issue especially in regards to rules quality, some may not have that luxury, since 40k is all that is played locally, but that doesn't change what is now industry standard with the exception of GW and therefore the demmands that creates.
All very correct and fair, nobody will disagree that an increase is quality of rules and reductions of errors is bad. I just take objection to the usual dakka kneejerking like tneva did with the "omg rules are horrid go pirate, they're illegible burning dumpster fires you gw white knight shill" style reaction.
i mean as kneejerky as the reactions are, and i am myself guilty of some in regards to GW, i don't think they are "wrong".
GW having been frankly terrible recently torwards customers is a fact.
GW hiking prices during a pandemic with the corresponding depression is a fact.
GW seemingly not caring about most factions is also a fact.
That people turn angry and therefore ready pitchforks and questionable russian PDF sites is understandable for what else is their option; criticism get's more or less ignored by GW and voting by wallet is through sunk cost, local community for TG gaming and IP law not really possible.
Personally GW's edition cycle especially that nowadays faster and faster turning of said cycle is in my opinion extremely close to planned obsolesence...
For comparison's sake, everyone knows that Bethesda games are buggy messes at launch, yet people will be lined up around the block to buy the next Elder Scrolls game.
While I agree that GW could do a better job with its rules writing, the fact is they can't catch everything because inevitably there are things they can't predict. Smash Captains and Chaplain Dreadnoughts anyone?
Not Online!!! wrote: That doesn't lower the ammount of criticism that should be levelled against GW's ruleswriting though...
If anything it should throw up questions wether we should be okay paying more for rules that didn't increase in quality.
That's a fair and reasonable statement, but having a faq or errata free release isn't a fair benchmark for a good release. Being free of typos, obvious errors etc. Is an increase of quality in one sense. The quality of the rules is a different topic.
I use translated books, let^s just say, that an editor would go a long way, regardless off content OR quality of the writing, stuff like missing warlord traits should not happen.
It can be a high quality book with low quality content and vice versa. People seem to think that it has to be cheap, perfectly balanced rules wise and error free to even be considered reasonable.
The issue is, imo atleast, that GW is one of the last TG companies selling you rules, rules which mechanically aren't superior for the price, comparatively to free rules downloads other companies offer.
I also don't think the demand is for flawless, as pointed out.
I even think especially the more competitve minded players wouldn't mind to pay for the ruleset , if it indeed were better balanced. With the price beeing associated with a more thourough playtesting phase.
Also i find it unacceptable that GW can sell what is a balance patch in the form of CA.
So yes , as a custommer that also is lucky and has a diverse TG scene, opportunity cost becomes an issue especially in regards to rules quality, some may not have that luxury, since 40k is all that is played locally, but that doesn't change what is now industry standard with the exception of GW and therefore the demmands that creates.
All very correct and fair, nobody will disagree that an increase is quality of rules and reductions of errors is bad. I just take objection to the usual dakka kneejerking like tneva did with the "omg rules are horrid go pirate, they're illegible burning dumpster fires you gw white knight shill" style reaction.
i mean as kneejerky as the reactions are, and i am myself guilty of some in regards to GW, i don't think they are "wrong".
GW having been frankly terrible recently torwards customers is a fact.
GW hiking prices during a pandemic with the corresponding depression is a fact.
GW seemingly not caring about most factions is also a fact.
That people turn angry and therefore ready pitchforks and questionable russian PDF sites is understandable for what else is their option; criticism get's more or less ignored by GW and voting by wallet is through sunk cost, local community for TG gaming and IP law not really possible.
Personally GW's edition cycle especially that nowadays faster and faster turning of said cycle is in my opinion extremely close to planned obsolesence...
Two of those "facts" are actually opinions, as they are completely subjective or based only upon limited information.
Not Online!!! wrote: That doesn't lower the ammount of criticism that should be levelled against GW's ruleswriting though...
If anything it should throw up questions wether we should be okay paying more for rules that didn't increase in quality.
That's a fair and reasonable statement, but having a faq or errata free release isn't a fair benchmark for a good release. Being free of typos, obvious errors etc. Is an increase of quality in one sense. The quality of the rules is a different topic.
I use translated books, let^s just say, that an editor would go a long way, regardless off content OR quality of the writing, stuff like missing warlord traits should not happen.
It can be a high quality book with low quality content and vice versa. People seem to think that it has to be cheap, perfectly balanced rules wise and error free to even be considered reasonable.
The issue is, imo atleast, that GW is one of the last TG companies selling you rules, rules which mechanically aren't superior for the price, comparatively to free rules downloads other companies offer.
I also don't think the demand is for flawless, as pointed out.
I even think especially the more competitve minded players wouldn't mind to pay for the ruleset , if it indeed were better balanced. With the price beeing associated with a more thourough playtesting phase.
Also i find it unacceptable that GW can sell what is a balance patch in the form of CA.
So yes , as a custommer that also is lucky and has a diverse TG scene, opportunity cost becomes an issue especially in regards to rules quality, some may not have that luxury, since 40k is all that is played locally, but that doesn't change what is now industry standard with the exception of GW and therefore the demmands that creates.
All very correct and fair, nobody will disagree that an increase is quality of rules and reductions of errors is bad. I just take objection to the usual dakka kneejerking like tneva did with the "omg rules are horrid go pirate, they're illegible burning dumpster fires you gw white knight shill" style reaction.
i mean as kneejerky as the reactions are, and i am myself guilty of some in regards to GW, i don't think they are "wrong".
GW having been frankly terrible recently torwards customers is a fact.
GW hiking prices during a pandemic with the corresponding depression is a fact.
GW seemingly not caring about most factions is also a fact.
That people turn angry and therefore ready pitchforks and questionable russian PDF sites is understandable for what else is their option; criticism get's more or less ignored by GW and voting by wallet is through sunk cost, local community for TG gaming and IP law not really possible.
Personally GW's edition cycle especially that nowadays faster and faster turning of said cycle is in my opinion extremely close to planned obsolesence...
Again, you're not wrong and I agree they've made some questionable choices, but tneva in this example attacked me for making the simple observation that a perfect book release is essentially impossible and shouldn't be expected.
Both were somewhat obvious and if an honest attempt at playtesting would've happened we'd had a lot less of these things, just like we'd not have had index Brimstone malefic spam and working soup rules, without the need for the bb change later on....
Sure never would've been everything caught, but the Soup limitations and implementation initially in the index era would've been easily catachable
Not Online!!! wrote: That doesn't lower the ammount of criticism that should be levelled against GW's ruleswriting though...
If anything it should throw up questions wether we should be okay paying more for rules that didn't increase in quality.
That's a fair and reasonable statement, but having a faq or errata free release isn't a fair benchmark for a good release. Being free of typos, obvious errors etc. Is an increase of quality in one sense. The quality of the rules is a different topic.
I use translated books, let^s just say, that an editor would go a long way, regardless off content OR quality of the writing, stuff like missing warlord traits should not happen.
It can be a high quality book with low quality content and vice versa. People seem to think that it has to be cheap, perfectly balanced rules wise and error free to even be considered reasonable.
The issue is, imo atleast, that GW is one of the last TG companies selling you rules, rules which mechanically aren't superior for the price, comparatively to free rules downloads other companies offer.
I also don't think the demand is for flawless, as pointed out.
I even think especially the more competitve minded players wouldn't mind to pay for the ruleset , if it indeed were better balanced. With the price beeing associated with a more thourough playtesting phase.
Also i find it unacceptable that GW can sell what is a balance patch in the form of CA.
So yes , as a custommer that also is lucky and has a diverse TG scene, opportunity cost becomes an issue especially in regards to rules quality, some may not have that luxury, since 40k is all that is played locally, but that doesn't change what is now industry standard with the exception of GW and therefore the demmands that creates.
All very correct and fair, nobody will disagree that an increase is quality of rules and reductions of errors is bad. I just take objection to the usual dakka kneejerking like tneva did with the "omg rules are horrid go pirate, they're illegible burning dumpster fires you gw white knight shill" style reaction.
i mean as kneejerky as the reactions are, and i am myself guilty of some in regards to GW, i don't think they are "wrong".
GW having been frankly terrible recently torwards customers is a fact.
GW hiking prices during a pandemic with the corresponding depression is a fact.
GW seemingly not caring about most factions is also a fact.
That people turn angry and therefore ready pitchforks and questionable russian PDF sites is understandable for what else is their option; criticism get's more or less ignored by GW and voting by wallet is through sunk cost, local community for TG gaming and IP law not really possible.
Personally GW's edition cycle especially that nowadays faster and faster turning of said cycle is in my opinion extremely close to planned obsolesence...
Again, you're not wrong and I agree they've made some questionable choices, but tneva in this example attacked me for making the simple observation that a perfect book release is essentially impossible and shouldn't be expected.
I agree, i think his ire would be better focussed at GW
Again, you're not wrong and I agree they've made some questionable choices, but tneva in this example attacked me for making the simple observation that a perfect book release is essentially impossible and shouldn't be expected.
not the perfect book, but something worth the price that lasts longer than 6 months
Again, you're not wrong and I agree they've made some questionable choices, but tneva in this example attacked me for making the simple observation that a perfect book release is essentially impossible and shouldn't be expected.
not the perfect book, but something worth the price that lasts longer than 6 months
Well that would be nice, but worth the price is entirely subjective.
"worth it" is subjective I agree
but releasing a gaming aid booklet that is obsolete after 6 months and the other stuff inside nothing new if you bought the same Codex in the past, should be a softcover at a lower price point and not an expensive hardcover
for a hardcover with a premium price I expect no recycled fluff and artwork and that it last the whole edition and is not replaced by an updated book after a year
kodos wrote: "worth it" is subjective I agree
but releasing a gaming aid booklet that is obsolete after 6 months and the other stuff inside nothing new if you bought the same Codex in the past, should be a softcover at a lower price point and not an expensive hardcover
for a hardcover with a premium price I expect no recycled fluff and artwork and that it last the whole edition and is not replaced by an updated book after a year
We are nowhere near the level of overpriced recycled content nonsense that academic textbooks pull at least.
kodos wrote: "worth it" is subjective I agree
but releasing a gaming aid booklet that is obsolete after 6 months and the other stuff inside nothing new if you bought the same Codex in the past, should be a softcover at a lower price point and not an expensive hardcover
for a hardcover with a premium price I expect no recycled fluff and artwork and that it last the whole edition and is not replaced by an updated book after a year
We are nowhere near the level of overpriced recycled content nonsense that academic textbooks pull at least.
not to be mean, but at this stage such textbooks do have a similar lifespan.. or need i remind you of the last PA which was supposedly written with 9th in mind or the (in)famous traitor legend supplement at the end of 7th...
kodos wrote: "worth it" is subjective I agree
but releasing a gaming aid booklet that is obsolete after 6 months and the other stuff inside nothing new if you bought the same Codex in the past, should be a softcover at a lower price point and not an expensive hardcover
for a hardcover with a premium price I expect no recycled fluff and artwork and that it last the whole edition and is not replaced by an updated book after a year
We are nowhere near the level of overpriced recycled content nonsense that academic textbooks pull at least.
funny thing, my books for chemical tables and calculations is 20 years old and some stuff we use in the company 60 year or older
because the important stuff did not change so it is not worth buying the new books for minor updates
Manfred von Drakken wrote: For comparison's sake, everyone knows that Bethesda games are buggy messes at launch, yet people will be lined up around the block to buy the next Elder Scrolls game.
While I agree that GW could do a better job with its rules writing, the fact is they can't catch everything because inevitably there are things they can't predict. Smash Captains and Chaplain Dreadnoughts anyone?
Does Bethesda also have the gall to charge you for fixing bugs or balance patches?
Also literally anyone here can predict that stuff. People were breaking each codex as we got leaks, and that's bare fething minimum info. It isn't difficult like you're making it, so stop using the "they can't catch everything" defense because if those obvious holes made it through you need to wonder what didn't.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: For comparison's sake, everyone knows that Bethesda games are buggy messes at launch, yet people will be lined up around the block to buy the next Elder Scrolls game.
While I agree that GW could do a better job with its rules writing, the fact is they can't catch everything because inevitably there are things they can't predict. Smash Captains and Chaplain Dreadnoughts anyone?
Does Bethesda also have the gall to charge you for fixing bugs or balance patches?.
No, they instead want to charge you for community made content instead. Without any curation or quality control filtering on what you pay for. Ergo a very loose/open ended paid mods system
Noting that I think paid mods is not a bad idea in concept, but having the main delivery system being paid for promoted and then having no curation/validation/quality control by the host company means that its ripe for abuse.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: For comparison's sake, everyone knows that Bethesda games are buggy messes at launch, yet people will be lined up around the block to buy the next Elder Scrolls game.
While I agree that GW could do a better job with its rules writing, the fact is they can't catch everything because inevitably there are things they can't predict. Smash Captains and Chaplain Dreadnoughts anyone?
Does Bethesda also have the gall to charge you for fixing bugs or balance patches?
Also literally anyone here can predict that stuff. People were breaking each codex as we got leaks, and that's bare fething minimum info. It isn't difficult like you're making it, so stop using the "they can't catch everything" defense because if those obvious holes made it through you need to wonder what didn't.
Also you can't (unless they allow it and you can actually do it to get what you want), modify games - you can adjust the rules and narrative of tabletop games to suit as long as you can persude your mates to play with you.
gotta say the space wolves sound like they're in a good position, I am somewhat sad to see that "WE EAT YOU FOR THE CPS!" strat gone, simply because uit was such a zany strat.
In other news (at least it's new to me), this reads like confirmation that (as some of us speculated) Flayed Ones won't be released until the new Kill Team that comes early next year:
As you can see 2020 has been a pretty spooky year for models, and 2021 is going to be just as good. We’ve already had a look at the terrifying Flayed Ones, and now we’re going to tease one more tantalising glimpse of the future…
Geifer wrote: In other news (at least it's new to me), this reads like confirmation that (as some of us speculated) Flayed Ones won't be released until the new Kill Team that comes early next year:
As you can see 2020 has been a pretty spooky year for models, and 2021 is going to be just as good. We’ve already had a look at the terrifying Flayed Ones, and now we’re going to tease one more tantalising glimpse of the future…
Geifer wrote: In other news (at least it's new to me), this reads like confirmation that (as some of us speculated) Flayed Ones won't be released until the new Kill Team that comes early next year:
As you can see 2020 has been a pretty spooky year for models, and 2021 is going to be just as good. We’ve already had a look at the terrifying Flayed Ones, and now we’re going to tease one more tantalising glimpse of the future…
Dudeface wrote: No rules set is error free, its impossible for anything to be perfect on release.
Yeah. It's not like they've had nine editions and over twenty-five years or anything...
Irrelevant, they haven't been reprinting the same book for 25 years to Iron out every little thing.
than maybe they should change the advertising and make clear that those are not different Editions of the same Game, but each time a new stand alone game, so that people don't expect that GW has 25 years to iron out everything but write the rules each time from scratch and therefore get each time different errors
as long as GW advertise this as one game that was developed over 25 years people are legit to complain that they did not manage to erase all mistakes over those 25 years
its is their fault for the wrong advertising it, so no excuse here that it is not the same book reprinted
Dysartes wrote: *confiscates yukishiro's supply of tin foil*
Well, that's a very effective rebuttal.
Look, I'm the first one to generally go with the "GW are just incompetent, not evil." But this is twice now that they've let stores order a lot, then at the last minute, with no explanation, cut their allocations. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what's going on here. The amount of models in their warehouse didn't change in either case. They are clearly not making a decision on how much product to release to independents until they see how many total orders they get from those independents. What purpose would there be for doing that besides not making a decision on how much to hold back for themselves for the web store until they had a sense of how much demand there was from stores?
Dysartes wrote: *confiscates yukishiro's supply of tin foil*
Well, that's a very effective rebuttal.
Look, I'm the first one to generally go with the "GW are just incompetent, not evil." But this is twice now that they've let stores order a lot, then at the last minute, with no explanation, cut their allocations. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what's going on here. The amount of models in their warehouse didn't change in either case. They are clearly not making a decision on how much product to release to independents until they see how many total orders they get from those independents. What purpose would there be for doing that besides not making a decision on how much to hold back for themselves for the web store until they had a sense of how much demand there was from stores?
the most likely answer is that GW's gotten more orders then expected and had to dial it back at the last minute.
and yes GW is proably taking steps to ensure they can meet sales needs at their local stores first, that's as much likely a branding thing as it is a money thing.
Dysartes wrote: *confiscates yukishiro's supply of tin foil*
Well, that's a very effective rebuttal.
Look, I'm the first one to generally go with the "GW are just incompetent, not evil." But this is twice now that they've let stores order a lot, then at the last minute, with no explanation, cut their allocations. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what's going on here. The amount of models in their warehouse didn't change in either case. They are clearly not making a decision on how much product to release to independents until they see how many total orders they get from those independents. What purpose would there be for doing that besides not making a decision on how much to hold back for themselves for the web store until they had a sense of how much demand there was from stores?
Your hypothesis falls flat when you come to the incredibly obvious realisation that this is entirely non-standard for GW. They never do this. Never ever ever. They could, they could do this all the time. This could be their business model. But they don't. Your theory is nonsense. This is the result of very obvious and easily explained external pressures, and that's it.
But that's the point. They knew how many kits they had in their warehouse. If they were committed to shipping X kits to independents ahead of time, they would have just used that as their base for orders, and stopped taking orders when they reached that number.
Instead, just like with Indomitus, they're letting independents submit pre-orders then, at the last minute, deciding whether to actually give them what they pre-ordered. Leaving independents with people who pre-ordered product through them that the independents can't actually deliver on because their allocations got cut at the last minute with no explanation. Meanwhile the web store is still there tempting people to just buy direct...selling products that were preordered by the independents, which GW simply decided not to give them.
Dysartes wrote: *confiscates yukishiro's supply of tin foil*
Well, that's a very effective rebuttal.
Look, I'm the first one to generally go with the "GW are just incompetent, not evil." But this is twice now that they've let stores order a lot, then at the last minute, with no explanation, cut their allocations. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what's going on here. The amount of models in their warehouse didn't change in either case. They are clearly not making a decision on how much product to release to independents until they see how many total orders they get from those independents. What purpose would there be for doing that besides not making a decision on how much to hold back for themselves for the web store until they had a sense of how much demand there was from stores?
Your hypothesis falls flat when you come to the incredibly obvious realisation that this is entirely non-standard for GW. They never do this. Never ever ever. They could, they could do this all the time. This could be their business model. But they don't. Your theory is nonsense. This is the result of very obvious and easily explained external pressures, and that's it.
They did it with Indomitus. This is the second time. It must be interesting to live in a world where "twice in three months" is "never ever ever."
What "very obvious and easily explained external pressures" made GW have a different amount of kits in their warehouse between when they opened pre-orders for independents and a week later when they decided, with zero explanation, to not deliver on those pre-orders? If there were "very obvious and easily explained external pressures," don't you think GW would have, well, explained them in their messages telling retailers they weren't getting what they had ordered?
They ran out of Indomitus double quick time on the official GW site. It's because they didn't have enough, because of, you know, the pandemic. If they wanted to sell millions of copies direct, copies that they hoarded and withheld, at the expense of their business partners, they failed miserably.
yukishiro1 wrote: But that's the point. They knew how many kits they had in their warehouse. If they were committed to shipping X kits to independents ahead of time, they would have just used that as their base for orders, and stopped taking orders when they reached that number.
Instead, just like with Indomitus, they're letting independents submit pre-orders then, at the last minute, deciding whether to actually give them what they pre-ordered. Leaving independents with people who pre-ordered product through them that the independents can't actually deliver on because their allocations got cut at the last minute with no explanation. Meanwhile the web store is still there tempting people to just buy direct...selling products that were preordered by the independents, which GW simply decided not to give them.
Dysartes wrote: *confiscates yukishiro's supply of tin foil*
Well, that's a very effective rebuttal.
Look, I'm the first one to generally go with the "GW are just incompetent, not evil." But this is twice now that they've let stores order a lot, then at the last minute, with no explanation, cut their allocations. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what's going on here. The amount of models in their warehouse didn't change in either case. They are clearly not making a decision on how much product to release to independents until they see how many total orders they get from those independents. What purpose would there be for doing that besides not making a decision on how much to hold back for themselves for the web store until they had a sense of how much demand there was from stores?
Your hypothesis falls flat when you come to the incredibly obvious realisation that this is entirely non-standard for GW. They never do this. Never ever ever. They could, they could do this all the time. This could be their business model. But they don't. Your theory is nonsense. This is the result of very obvious and easily explained external pressures, and that's it.
They did it with Indomitus. This is the second time. It must be interesting to live in a world where "twice in three months" is "never ever ever."
What "very obvious and easily explained external pressures" made GW have a different amount of kits in their warehouse between when they opened pre-orders for independents and a week later when they decided, with zero explanation, to not deliver on those pre-orders? If there were "very obvious and easily explained external pressures," don't you think GW would have, well, explained them in their messages telling retailers they weren't getting what they had ordered?
thats likely because those pre-orders all come in then someone goes through and says "hey bob, we won;t be able to fill these numbers." "ok, so to be fair lets give each store the same amount"
thats likely because those pre-orders all come in then someone goes through and says "hey bob, we won;t be able to fill these numbers." "ok, so to be fair lets give each store the same amount"
That's not how things work. Not even GW is incompetent enough not to know how many kits they have in their warehouse before taking orders. They don't just take 100k orders and then go look at how many they can ship and then cut everybody's allocation by half if they only have 50k. They know how many units they have in the warehouse and they know how many orders are coming in. If orders exceed stock, they stop taking orders. A normal business would have allocated a certain portion of their warehouse for independent sales, and stopped taking orders from independents if those orders were exceeded. If for some reason they radically misestimated demand, they would eat that cost themselves by opening a larger allocation for a second round of orders, with purchase limits. If they had concerns about demand to begin with because of a pandemic, they would have initially limited orders to X from each retailer, then opened up a further allocation if they had the amount. These are all basic principles of inventory management.
At the very least, if something truly weird happens and they are left in a situation where they can't deliver on the preorders they took, a company is going to provide a thorough explanation for why they're defaulting on those preorders. Not just send around an email literally a day or two before the product is supposed to arrive that "sorry, you're not getting what you ordered" with no explanation.
If there was a good explanation for why this happened for Indomitus, they would have given it. If there was a good explanation for why this happened again now, they would have given it. Instead, in both cases, they just slashed allocations to independents without explanation.
A businessman I see. I, too, as a fellow businessman, expect multi-nationals to thoroughly dissect their failures, in real time, in the public eye. That's just what we call good business.
Funniest thing about this is that it's two codices and a couple of Start Collecting releases. I can kinda see the appeal with the Indomitus debacle, that was an exciting time and and event well worth unpacking the tinfoil for. This though, is just sad (funny sad).
If you actually do business and when you screw up and can't deliver on the orders you took you just say "you're not getting what you ordered and LOL if you think we're going to give you an explanation because that would be admitting failure," you aren't going to be in business for very long.
Except if you're in the plastic crack business, apparently. Then people will come out of the woodwork to attack anybody suggesting it's really bad business to take preorders and then not deliver on them with no explanation.
It's literally mind-boggling that anyone would be trying to defend a company telling retailers that they weren't getting what they had pre-ordered, with no explanation whatsoever, while those products are still available for sale on the webstore. It would be one thing if there literally weren't enough copies in the warehouse and they weren't taking pre-orders on the webstore either. But that isn't the case. They cut the orders of independents while they are still have product available for sale through their webstore. That isn't a company that took too many orders and can't deliver on all of them, it's a company that decided to cut the allocation to independents after seeing the order numbers, so they can sell more of them themselves.
Well Deathwatch are largely pointless now outside interactions with Combat Squading stuff. Garbage rules writing. No more Special Ammo Storm Bolters, even for Terminators? No Aggressor synergy with Assault Bolt Rifle and Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessors, which also lost their Special Ammo? Who the feth wrote this thing?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well Deathwatch are largely pointless now outside interactions with Combat Squading stuff.
This is demonstrably false. Kill Team Specialisms and the ability to crib abilities from every other non-GK marine chapter alone make them hellaciously versatile, but when you layer on the new WLTs, Psyker discipline (you're easily going to see one, maybe two Librarians in a majority of DW lists I'd wager), relics and strats that are actually worth a damn they're orders of magnitude improved over their 8th edition standing.
SIA is an issue, and one I think GW vastly overreached on. Losing mixed squad abilities (to an extent) on Proteus and Fortis teams is also a change that I'm not happy with. But everything else in the supplement is gold.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well Deathwatch are largely pointless now outside interactions with Combat Squading stuff. Garbage rules writing. No more Special Ammo Storm Bolters, even for Terminators? No Aggressor synergy with Assault Bolt Rifle and Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessors, which also lost their Special Ammo? Who the feth wrote this thing?
what? a barn door is quite big....how the heck are you missing it?
Dudeface wrote: No rules set is error free, its impossible for anything to be perfect on release.
Yeah. It's not like they've had nine editions and over twenty-five years or anything...
Irrelevant, they haven't been reprinting the same book for 25 years to Iron out every little thing.
than maybe they should change the advertising and make clear that those are not different Editions of the same Game, but each time a new stand alone game, so that people don't expect that GW has 25 years to iron out everything but write the rules each time from scratch and therefore get each time different errors
as long as GW advertise this as one game that was developed over 25 years people are legit to complain that they did not manage to erase all mistakes over those 25 years
its is their fault for the wrong advertising it, so no excuse here that it is not the same book reprinted
You've lost it guardsperson, report to the nearest commissar for... cleansing.
Pretty sure that if you change the contents one way or another you're increasing risk of errors, doesn't matter how or where. Nobody anywhere has ever suggested they expect 9th edition of 40k to be a reprint of rogue trader. It even has a different name.
Likewise GW have never suggested they've amended rogue trader 8 times.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well Deathwatch are largely pointless now outside interactions with Combat Squading stuff.
This is demonstrably false. Kill Team Specialisms and the ability to crib abilities from every other non-GK marine chapter alone make them hellaciously versatile, but when you layer on the new WLTs, Psyker discipline (you're easily going to see one, maybe two Librarians in a majority of DW lists I'd wager), relics and strats that are actually worth a damn they're orders of magnitude improved over their 8th edition standing.
SIA is an issue, and one I think GW vastly overreached on. Losing mixed squad abilities (to an extent) on Proteus and Fortis teams is also a change that I'm not happy with. But everything else in the supplement is gold.
Those specialisms only work well when you're tailoring, so quite frankly they might as well not exist, and the Warlord Traits are overall not changed. How anyone could see this as a positive compared to the last codex is just blatantly wrong. They lost a TON of killing power.
The old DW was basically just one gimmick with SIA. It was a very powerful, distinctive gimmick, but it was pretty one-note.
The gimmick got toned down for the new supplement, but there are also other things going on now. Killing power may have dropped, but flexibility increased substantially.
How anyone could see this as a positive compared to the last codex is just blatantly wrong. They lost a TON of killing power.
Again, false. They lost widespread access to SIA. The army's lethality is significantly improved.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: The old DW was basically just one gimmick with SIA. It was a very powerful, distinctive gimmick, but it was pretty one-note
This is incorrect as well. Mixed squads in 8th granted seriously powerful abilities. The primary issue was that they were relatively overcosted for what they could do, and markedly fragile. They were also seriously handicapped by a lack of rules updates through the entirety of the edition.
We were talking about killing power; obviously mixed squads are a big thing for DW generally. SIA used to be the big gimmick DW got its killing power from.
That isn't the case so much any more, but overall I think the killing power is pretty similar, if not increased, in the new book.
yukishiro1 wrote: We were talking about killing power; obviously mixed squads are a big thing for DW generally. SIA used to be the big gimmick DW got its killing power from.
Again, incorrect. Mixed squad rules were exceptionally powerful for allowing the army to deal consistent damage.
That isn't the case so much any more, but overall I think the killing power is pretty similar, if not increased, in the new book.
This is also inaccurate. With the capacity to choose their prey, and multiple options for powering up to selectively combat said prey, mixed Kill Teams still have a prominent role to play for the faction.
How anyone could see this as a positive compared to the last codex is just blatantly wrong. They lost a TON of killing power.
Again, false. They lost widespread access to SIA. The army's lethality is significantly improved.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: The old DW was basically just one gimmick with SIA. It was a very powerful, distinctive gimmick, but it was pretty one-note
This is incorrect as well. Mixed squads in 8th granted seriously powerful abilities. The primary issue was that they were relatively overcosted for what they could do, and markedly fragile. They were also seriously handicapped by a lack of rules updates through the entirety of the edition.
1. When you're paying 35 points, or half a Leuitenant, that's REALLY steep for basically a Character giving the same aura. So yes, it would be strictly about tailoring whether you want to admit it or not.
2. Half the Warlord Traits are basically the same. I did read the new rules thanks.
3. SIA WAS their killing power. Tacking on points to attempt to list tailor is not going to increase your killing power when your dudes only have a couple shots to begin with. 2 Extra shots via a Storm Bolter with SIA is always going to win out, as will the Assault Bolt Rifle using SIA.
That was the core of the army, the SIA. Not only did a bunch of units and guns lose it, but then there was a half asked attempt at Specialisms you're somehow trying to defend. The Supplement is garbage. Just accept that.
That isn't the case so much any more, but overall I think the killing power is pretty similar, if not increased, in the new book.
This is also inaccurate. With the capacity to choose their prey, and multiple options for powering up to selectively combat said prey, mixed Kill Teams still have a prominent role to play for the faction.
Er, that's what I just said. SIA itself got toned down, but in conjunction with other stuff that got buffed, it's still got a role for sure.
1. When you're paying 35 points, or half a Leuitenant, that's REALLY steep for basically a Character giving the same aura. So yes, it would be strictly about tailoring whether you want to admit it or not.
Incorrect. It's full wound rerolls when you play your cards correctly. And that's very, very easy to do. Also only two of the Specialisms cost 35 points.
3. SIA WAS their killing power. Tacking on points to attempt to list tailor is not going to increase your killing power when your dudes only have a couple shots to begin with. 2 Extra shots via a Storm Bolter with SIA is always going to win out, as will the Assault Bolt Rifle using SIA.
Not only did a bunch of units and guns lose it, but then there was a half asked attempt at Specialisms you're somehow trying to defend. The Supplement is garbage. Just accept that.
I'm not for a second defending SIA, so thanks for putting words in my mouth. I've explicitly called it out here, in the Deathwatch thread, and elsewhere as a stupidly restrictive change.That does not change the fact that the supplement is decidedly not garbage, but youre more than welcome to continue to not play, or understand, an army you clearly dont play or understand. You wont be missed.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well Deathwatch are largely pointless now outside interactions with Combat Squading stuff. Garbage rules writing. No more Special Ammo Storm Bolters, even for Terminators? No Aggressor synergy with Assault Bolt Rifle and Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessors, which also lost their Special Ammo? Who the feth wrote this thing?
the only units with SIA are the ones in their own supplement, the ones shared with the core SM codex seem to have lost it. I mean.......... people predicted some chapters risked loosing special rules if they did this kind of consolidation.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well Deathwatch are largely pointless now outside interactions with Combat Squading stuff. Garbage rules writing. No more Special Ammo Storm Bolters, even for Terminators? No Aggressor synergy with Assault Bolt Rifle and Stalker Bolt Rifle Intercessors, which also lost their Special Ammo? Who the feth wrote this thing?
the only units with SIA are the ones in their own supplement, the ones shared with the core SM codex seem to have lost it. I mean.......... people predicted some chapters risked loosing special rules if they did this kind of consolidation.
They're not a Chapter though. They're basically an Inquisition martial force. They and Grey Knights should've been rolled into an Inquisition codex and retained their damned Ammo.
SIA was a crutch, its now reigned in and I will glady take 2D ammo with combat doctrines and bolter discipline, plus the extra rules that have been thrown on top. With the codex wide open to DW, you can't have armywide SIA too, that would be garbage rules design.
This codex supplement is close to what most DW players dreamt about.....if you don't see that, then you don't know DW. The fortis team might have taken a hit, but I can see people taking 5 stalker intercessors with 5 Outriders. Other teams will work great combined.
I truly hope most people think its garbage... Keeps the bandwagoners away.
Oh ww. It's like they really don't want to sell any. I was looking forward to this one too, as I'll actually have a use for the upgrade sprues for BA. Maybe I can convince myself to get one, but I can imagine I'll more likely be waiting to see what's in UM / DA / whatever else instead.
bullyboy wrote: SIA was a crutch, its now reigned in and I will glady take 2D ammo with combat doctrines and bolter discipline, plus the extra rules that have been thrown on top. With the codex wide open to DW, you can't have armywide SIA too, that would be garbage rules design.
This codex supplement is close to what most DW players dreamt about.....if you don't see that, then you don't know DW. The fortis team might have taken a hit, but I can see people taking 5 stalker intercessors with 5 Outriders. Other teams will work great combined.
I truly hope most people think its garbage... Keeps the bandwagoners away.
The most amusing thing about it, is that DW better fits my conception of how marines should work _anyway_. The kill teams are almost perfect. A variety of specialists geared up for the mission, all troops, and thumbing their noses at the bizarre kludge that the Force Org chart has become. Doctrines too are so much better, almost as if someone was in command and making tactical decisions.
Even Reivers sneak in with an actual purpose, and no one is lining up 10 33 point plasma models to die like idiots, and eradicators are basically the special weapon troops they should have been.
Only weirdness is the bikes and jump packs mixed in, but combat squads solve that.
There are probably a lot of exploits in there, but it makes for a much more interesting take on an SM army.
And loads better than SW supplement looks (character spam + wolf spam attached to an otherwise perfectly normal SM force)
yukishiro1 wrote: No, they're really stringing them out for some reason.
That is extremely annoying. I'm trying to buy all the models I want in one shot because I get a discount from my LGS. Need 2x canoptek Doomstalkers, 3x lokhust heavies, 1 psychomancer, 1 chronomancer, 1 monolith, 1 silent king, codex, data cards
yukishiro1 wrote: No, they're really stringing them out for some reason.
Well the pandemic and all has hit GW's production system hard. Plus they are backed up with releases for other systems too. Heck I suspect we got what was originally going to be two separate waves of Necron releases in one go already. I suspect starter sets, codex, terrain and such would have originally landed closer to Indomitus; then around September we'd have had the second wave and then a third wave later; instead we got waves one and two in one go and now there's a gap for the last which is likely going to be into next year.
It might even be that Indomitus wave 2 has pushed the new models further along as well.
The good side of it is that we've got time to buy and build without getting too overwhelmed in one go.
The english never let foreigners play their game 
