The main reason why 40K vs ANYTHING else is a 40K win is because while other Sci-fi universes sometimes take a single person/plot/ship/etc and dial it up to 11, in 40K the dial starts at 12.
The logistics behind 40K are just colossally absurd. The entire concept relies on the idea that you just don't think about it too hard. All other Sci-Fi setting try to be human first so that the reader/watcher can hope to relate to what is going on and draw them deeper into the story on a personal level. Hell in Star Wars one of the main heros is an average Joe with a blaster and a pretty fast ship. Nothing in 40K is relatable to the average reader, heck the most average Joe in 40K is a guardsman who grew up in a death world and was being taught to fight since birth.
Ok - I take it back the Zentrti and/or Robotech Masters of Macross could curb stomp the imperium. But thats a special case.
Jayden63 wrote: The main reason why 40K vs ANYTHING else is a 40K win is because while other Sci-fi universes sometimes take a single person/plot/ship/etc and dial it up to 11, in 40K the dial starts at 12.
The logistics behind 40K are just colossally absurd. The entire concept relies on the idea that you just don't think about it too hard. All other Sci-Fi setting try to be human first so that the reader/watcher can hope to relate to what is going on and draw them deeper into the story on a personal level. Hell in Star Wars one of the main heros is an average Joe with a blaster and a pretty fast ship. Nothing in 40K is relatable to the average reader, heck the most average Joe in 40K is a guardsman who grew up in a death world and was being taught to fight since birth.
No, 40k isn't actually that powerful on the scale of scifi as a whole. Sure, they're good compared to the average generic "WWII in space" scifi setting that's popular with TV and movies, but scifi as a whole has settings that make 40k's accomplishments look like a joke. I've said it before, but a single Culture civilian ship could effortlessly slaughter everything in 40k, and 40k's only hope would be that it gets bored of killing stuff and moves on to something more interesting.
Sadly the star wars universe does not have an answer to the Assassins of the Imperium.
I'm going to single this out because it's the textbook example of the "look at my gimmick" approach to this kind of debate. You haven't said anything about why assassins are effective at winning a galaxy-scale war or why Star Wars would be unable to counter them (whatever "counter" means in this context), you've just declared that assassins are awesome and therefore they must be an advantage. This is a really bad way to argue for a side.
As we have other races such as the Eldar who are so technologically advanced that it is by this they continue to survive. They bring back the dead, and their dead are far more powerful than their normal forms.
And they lose wars against WWI-in-space armies. I think the claims of Eldar superiority are greatly exaggerated.
Hell a single lance accidently destroyed a whole planet.
The next time the Night Haunter returned to Nostramo would be the last. Word had reached the legion that Imperial governor Basileus's regime allowed crime to run rampant once again. The Night Haunter's entire fleet arrived in orbit and aimed their weapons at their home world. Countless lance barrages and orbital torpedoes pummeled the surface. The bombardment reached the planet's core, possibly through a weakness left in the crust by Curze's landing or the extensive adamantium mining, and the planet burst apart[1][3].
Bolded the relevant part. So exactly how many weapons did it take to destroy the planet? An unknown number of ships and an unknown number of weapons. That does not transfer to a single weapon capable of causing a ELE.
Then we have Nova Cannons (Very similar to the deathstar in terms of how powerful they are and how hard it is to operate them)
ecause of the destruction it can cause over a vast area, a Nova Cannon projectile is not armed until a fraction of a second after firing, though by that time it will have already traveled tens of thousands of kilometers through space.[2a] Nova Cannons are also notoriously difficult to operate and inaccurate, which is why many Naval captains prefer to use traditional torpedoes instead. For those captains which do mount them, a well-used Nova Cannon can be a terrifying weapon and psychological tool.[2a]
An unsubstantiated claim in terms of how powerful they are, one seems to be a conventional shell that other a 50' cube of plasma. Neither, in todays physics capable to achieving the effects claims. Effects not claimed in your source material.
And onto the other materials used. Thank you for providing the info, we are then coming into a circular argument. If lances do this amount of damage then missiles which do the same damage in a game therefore have the same 'real-life' effects,
Often times Space battles in the 40k universe are over hundreds of kilometres. While in starwars the are up close and personal.
This is my personal view, so please accept it as such. This is as a result of presentation. Long distance battles do not work well in a visual media. I think I can guarantee that should 40K ever make it to a screen, the battles will be represented in the exact same way. Also, in some of the source materials Imperial ships only had ranges of thousands of km and were targeted using an optical telescope. But this has been discounted in preference to the 100,000 km ranges.
Also lies? Lies? You mean what Aaron Demboswaki said? Yes has anyone actually quoted a novel from 40k yet? No.... None have. They have been from the core books of the 40k universe. Codexes, the rules, and the many older writings of 40k which talk about actual weapon power.
There has only ever been one book in which weapon power was discussed and that was the original Spacehulk, in which a missile was listed as having 122 warheads at 5gt each. There is no other writing in which actual weapon power is discussed.
40k is a universe where logic is somewhat devoid within this universe. But that doesn't mean that it loses to starwars. Which though popular does not mean it is better or havae more powerful weaponry. It is clear that it is not as strong as the 40k universe.
Not also to forget that I and many others have only talked about the Imperium so far. The Imperium That is the only group we have siginificantly covered. As we have other races such as the Eldar who are so technologically advanced that it is by this they continue to survive. They bring back the dead, and their dead are far more powerful than their normal forms.
Imagine it an Eldar Craftworld in the star wars universe. Sowing chaos and destroying any race secretly. They can make any thing seem like an accident.
I'm not arguing that, I'm just fed up of the numerous facts and figures being thrown about as to the uber weaponry used by the imperial fleet as to being the reason for 40K success.
Bolded the relevant part. So exactly how many weapons did it take to destroy the planet? An unknown number of ships and an unknown number of weapons. That does not transfer to a single weapon capable of causing a ELE.
Nostrodomo outer core and crusts were made out of adamantium layers.
That is how I know you didn't read it or take the time to look through the history of Nostrodomo. A planet that was famed for that.
I'm not arguing that, I'm just fed up of the numerous facts and figures being thrown about as to the uber weaponry used by the imperial fleet as to being the reason for 40K success.
Well in the modern world force projection and force movability is often the most key to winning a war. Hence why the romans won many of their wars is because they built roads ahead of time and were able to use those to get to locations rather quickly. (So did the germans and many others throughout history)
40k in it's construction has an infaminable amount of force projection. The Power that the adminstration of the imperium has is uncalculated and incredible. Imagine for a second what would happen if all of a sudden the wars in the imperium were ceased and the imperium had one target?
The Imperials (Star Wars) for all their genius could not correlate or be equal to the combined strength of the Imperium's War Machine. Orders would be sent, the Imperium of Man would surround quickly and their fleets would destroy them.
You are not dealing with a single battleship. The point being is that everytime these starwars universes have faced a foe they have had one major fleet.
The Imperium has Six Major fleets. Segemtus, Solar, Pacificus, Obscurous, etc. All six major fleets are pretty fething big, the Segementus fleet when fully brought together destroyed one of the largest hive fleets known to the Imperium. Their fleets are uncountable their armies are massive, their logistics are borderline inhuman, and their leaders are countless years old.
You aren't talking about a single dying old man, we are talking about a space bound empire that rules the stars. Fanatics, super humans, demihumans, and saints are within the Imperium. The star wars universe in the face of such a threat would be smart to do one thing. Flee.
There is no other way to stop a force that does not yield, that does not stop. You killed one fleet, oh here is another. Is the idea of the Imperium. The Star Wars universe values life and their forces. The Imperium lacks that frame of mind. Their goal is only to win.
There has only ever been one book in which weapon power was discussed and that was the original Spacehulk, in which a missile was listed as having 122 warheads at 5gt each. There is no other writing in which actual weapon power is discussed.
Space hulk was produced by Games workshop so. That is technically canon.
This is my personal view, so please accept it as such. This is as a result of presentation. Long distance battles do not work well in a visual media. I think I can guarantee that should 40K ever make it to a screen, the battles will be represented in the exact same way. Also, in some of the source materials Imperial ships only had ranges of thousands of km and were targeted using an optical telescope. But this has been discounted in preference to the 100,000 km ranges.
Oh yeah I know! I know that is what happens in movies. For dramatic effect, the same reason why in game of thrones they have everyone with swords, when swords are extremely expensive and not everyone in the middle ages could actually afford one, the most common weapon in Europe at the tame was an axe or a pole arm. I understand that is what happens and even in the artwork of 40k you could see this.
I mean they have in some artwork showing that bolters have cases for their bullets. Which isn't the case in the lore. (As described in codex space marine)
And onto the other materials used. Thank you for providing the info, we are then coming into a circular argument. If lances do this amount of damage then missiles which do the same damage in a game therefore have the same 'real-life' effects,
You didn't quite read it correctly did you? Just going to say it. It is more accurate to use missles, but the Nova cannon is still superior in terms of fire power.
The Missles are more accurate, but that doesn't mean they can do more damage than a Nova Cannon as a nova cannon as stated fires a small sun that then explodes over a hundred thousand kilometres (or upon impact) That amount of plasma in 40k is pretty effective. In real life as I have stated 40k is devoid of logic. So trying to apply logic in 40k, where there are demons, pyskers and fantasy creatures is incredibly... Well short sighted. You can apply metaphors and alliteration and other literary tricks but real life physics in a universe where physics seems to have taken the back seat is something that doesn't quite mesh together.
Too bad none of that is canon.
That is canon actually that is all from the Rouge Trader books form WAAAYYYY back. And are still canon to this day as the lore has not been changed or moved. And most of it is from Battle Fleet Gothic which was run by Gamesworkshop.
I mean if we are in the KOTOR universe where they have access to the starforge then the imperium (Granted that the starwars universe can mass produce enough people to pilot the ships of the starforge) will have a good fight ahead of them.
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Jayden63 wrote: The main reason why 40K vs ANYTHING else is a 40K win is because while other Sci-fi universes sometimes take a single person/plot/ship/etc and dial it up to 11, in 40K the dial starts at 12.
The logistics behind 40K are just colossally absurd. The entire concept relies on the idea that you just don't think about it too hard. All other Sci-Fi setting try to be human first so that the reader/watcher can hope to relate to what is going on and draw them deeper into the story on a personal level. Hell in Star Wars one of the main heros is an average Joe with a blaster and a pretty fast ship. Nothing in 40K is relatable to the average reader, heck the most average Joe in 40K is a guardsman who grew up in a death world and was being taught to fight since birth.
Ok - I take it back the Zentrti and/or Robotech Masters of Macross could curb stomp the imperium. But thats a special case.
Or Starships troopers (book not the movie) Or The Culture or The Old Man's War universe Where everyone has a plasma rifle and their ships and their crews are so powerful it is kind of insane. (That and every member is over 75 years in age and most often they have already served in war). Or the Dragon Ball universe. Or the Sins of a Solar Empire Universe. Those all have a pretty good chance (around 60%, except for the culture one which is around 1812350581% because every member of the culture is basically a god)
Asherian Command wrote: Orders would be sent, the Imperium of Man would surround quickly and their fleets would destroy them.
Alternatively, the Imperium's armies/fleets/etc would all be lost in the warp. And those orders would be sent, arrive 10,000 years in the past, and change the outcome of the Heresy so that the Imperium never exists, because warp travel is like that. Or maybe it just takes 1,000 years to organize all of those fleets, another 1,000 years to get where they need to be, and then the Tau kill everything because they turned into the grimdark version of the Culture while the Imperium was off trying to beat Star Wars. That's the problem with depending on the warp, you never know what you're going to get.
The point being is that everytime these starwars universes have faced a foe they have had one major fleet.
Once again you're making a big deal out of random facts and gimmicks. Who cares how many major fleets a faction has fought? Is there really a huge difference between ten fleets of ten ships each and a single fleet of a hundred? What about a single fleet of a hundred ships vs. ten fleets of a hundred ships that each have 10% of the power of the ships in the hundred-ship fleet? Talking about "six major fleets" is meaningless until you can quantify the total firepower/defense/etc of those six fleets.
Their fleets are uncountable their armies are massive, their logistics are borderline inhuman, and their leaders are countless years old.
You aren't talking about a single dying old man, we are talking about a space bound empire that rules the stars. Fanatics, super humans, demihumans, and saints are within the Imperium. The star wars universe in the face of such a threat would be smart to do one thing. Flee.
And none of that is quantified at all, so it's just meaningless fluff.
Space hulk was produced by Games workshop so. That is technically canon.
No it isn't. GW does not have any canon policy that says "games we produce are canon". Space Hulk has no special canon status compared to 40k, licensed games in the 40k setting like DoW, or even my own personal fanfiction.
So trying to apply logic in 40k, where there are demons, pyskers and fantasy creatures is incredibly... Well short sighted. You can apply metaphors and alliteration and other literary tricks but real life physics in a universe where physics seems to have taken the back seat is something that doesn't quite mesh together.
Except trying to apply logic is exactly what you're doing. If you genuinely don't believe that logic applies at all then you can't say things like "40k has more powerful guns than Star Wars". What you're actually doing is selectively applying logic/physics/etc to 40k when it's an example of 40k being powerful and saying "logic doesn't apply" when you need to dismiss a weakness.
That is canon actually that is all from the Rouge Trader books form WAAAYYYY back.
Rogue Trader is not canon.
And most of it is from Battle Fleet Gothic which was run by Gamesworkshop.
BFG is not canon.
Or Starships troopers (book not the movie)
Actually, Starship Troopers gets massacred effortlessly by 40k. Even without considering firepower/defense/etc the sheer size advantage of 40k gives them an easy win.
The Old Man's War universe Where everyone has a plasma rifle and their ships and their crews are so powerful it is kind of insane.
What exactly was so powerful about that universe? I don't remember anything that suggested it was anything other than an average mid-level scifi setting with nothing particularly impressive about it.
What exactly was so powerful about that universe? I don't remember anything that suggested it was anything other than an average mid-level scifi setting with nothing particularly impressive about it.
They had a few plant busters, they were able to conquer entire alien species rather quickly their ships moved incredibly quickly and the killed many other alien races.
Their soldiers were all biomechanical constructs, that and they had a limitless supply of them back on earth and many of the colonies. Their armies were basically all super humans with mechanical bionics.
Giving that to every soldier and having the amount of technology they have is pretty awe inspiring.
The point is that the Imperium of Man, the Tau, Necrons, whatever.... CANT devote all their resources into destroying a single faction. The war is on all sides and if they were to fully devote into destroying any single faction then they would be destroyed by the other forces exploiting their weakness.
The Star Wars galaxy is massive and has already been shown to have HUGE production capabilities. Not only this but they also have easy access to cheap and effective Droid armies to fight their wars for them.
The same production capabilities that spits out 1,000+ star destroyers a year can also be used to produced an incredible amount of war droids in that same time. We are talking billions perhaps trillions a year.
You might ask why the empire doesn't just do this to destroy the rebellion. The reason of course being that they are generally A.I phobic and that the guerrilla warfare the rebels practiced was more easily dealt with by living forces. Not too mention that the they were originally not seen as a threat
Bolded the relevant part. So exactly how many weapons did it take to destroy the planet? An unknown number of ships and an unknown number of weapons. That does not transfer to a single weapon capable of causing a ELE.
Nostrodomo outer core and crusts were made out of adamantium layers.
That is how I know you didn't read it or take the time to look through the history of Nostrodomo. A planet that was famed for that.
And what is the chemical and material properties of adamantium? I did look and then dismissed it as being irrelevant and unsupportable. Again, people keep quoting the gt and tt damage outputs of starship weaponry. Using your info above we have an unknown number of weapons firing at an unknown substance and that according to you equals a single lance is capable of destroying a planet. You don't think that your original statement is off?
Well in the modern world force projection and force movability is often the most key to winning a war. Hence why the romans won many of their wars is because they built roads ahead of time and were able to use those to get to locations rather quickly. (So did the germans and many others throughout history)
40k in it's construction has an infaminable amount of force projection. The Power that the adminstration of the imperium has is uncalculated and incredible. Imagine for a second what would happen if all of a sudden the wars in the imperium were ceased and the imperium had one target?
The Imperials (Star Wars) for all their genius could not correlate or be equal to the combined strength of the Imperium's War Machine. Orders would be sent, the Imperium of Man would surround quickly and their fleets would destroy them.
You are not dealing with a single battleship. The point being is that everytime these starwars universes have faced a foe they have had one major fleet.
The Imperium has Six Major fleets. Segemtus, Solar, Pacificus, Obscurous, etc. All six major fleets are pretty fething big, the Segementus fleet when fully brought together destroyed one of the largest hive fleets known to the Imperium. Their fleets are uncountable their armies are massive, their logistics are borderline inhuman, and their leaders are countless years old.
You aren't talking about a single dying old man, we are talking about a space bound empire that rules the stars. Fanatics, super humans, demihumans, and saints are within the Imperium. The star wars universe in the face of such a threat would be smart to do one thing. Flee.
There is no other way to stop a force that does not yield, that does not stop. You killed one fleet, oh here is another. Is the idea of the Imperium. The Star Wars universe values life and their forces. The Imperium lacks that frame of mind. Their goal is only to win.
There has only ever been one book in which weapon power was discussed and that was the original Spacehulk, in which a missile was listed as having 122 warheads at 5gt each. There is no other writing in which actual weapon power is discussed.
Space hulk was produced by Games workshop so. That is technically canon.
This is my personal view, so please accept it as such. This is as a result of presentation. Long distance battles do not work well in a visual media. I think I can guarantee that should 40K ever make it to a screen, the battles will be represented in the exact same way. Also, in some of the source materials Imperial ships only had ranges of thousands of km and were targeted using an optical telescope. But this has been discounted in preference to the 100,000 km ranges.
Oh yeah I know! I know that is what happens in movies. For dramatic effect, the same reason why in game of thrones they have everyone with swords, when swords are extremely expensive and not everyone in the middle ages could actually afford one, the most common weapon in Europe at the tame was an axe or a pole arm. I understand that is what happens and even in the artwork of 40k you could see this.
I mean they have in some artwork showing that bolters have cases for their bullets. Which isn't the case in the lore. (As described in codex space marine)
And onto the other materials used. Thank you for providing the info, we are then coming into a circular argument. If lances do this amount of damage then missiles which do the same damage in a game therefore have the same 'real-life' effects,
You didn't quite read it correctly did you? Just going to say it. It is more accurate to use missles, but the Nova cannon is still superior in terms of fire power.
The Missles are more accurate, but that doesn't mean they can do more damage than a Nova Cannon as a nova cannon as stated fires a small sun that then explodes over a hundred thousand kilometres (or upon impact)
I didn't say that I said that the figures used to support the 'über ness' of starship weaponry uses circular logic referencing the damage output of one weapon to directly extrapolating the output of other weapons. And the main culprit of that is the starship battles website that a lot of people reference
Your other points are all matters of debate, and are variable enough upon which to have a discussion. However claiming real life values for unknown weapons firing at unknown materials is one that I completely disagree with.
Cheers
Andrew
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DoomShakaLaka wrote: The point is that the Imperium of Man, the Tau, Necrons, whatever.... CANT devote all their resources into destroying a single faction. The war is on all sides and if they were to fully devote into destroying any single faction then they would be destroyed by the other forces exploiting their weakness.
The Star Wars galaxy is massive and has already been shown to have HUGE production capabilities. Not only this but they also have easy access to cheap and effective Droid armies to fight their wars for them.
The same production capabilities that spits out 1,000+ star destroyers a year can also be used to produced an incredible amount of war droids in that same time. We are talking billions perhaps trillions a year.
You might ask why the empire doesn't just do this to destroy the rebellion. The reason of course being that they are generally A.I phobic and that the guerrilla warfare the rebels practiced was more easily dealt with by living forces. Not too mention that the they were originally not seen as a threat
The threat of a bogie man is also good for keeping a population under control. A civilisation at peace will balk at civil liberty restriction that a wartime population will accept without comment. Eg food rationing, movement restrictions, centralisation of powers, implementation of new laws without consultation. A dictatorship works better when you are at war and can direct the anger of the populace against a third party.
Cheers
Andrew
Not too mention that the vaccum warfare practiced by droids is very brutal against those that actually need air to live.
Someone mentioned that the Eldar would be able to overcome the distance between galaxies and that they would just be able to come and destroy the Star Wars universe soley. Not going to debate the claim quite yet, but why WOULD they do this? They are a dying race which is barely holding on at the moment. Risking a craft world and its denizens for no reason seems highly out of character.
The IoM can neither afford to fight the SW universe and they also cannot physically bridge the gap between any galaxy in less then a 1000 years. By which time the crew would be so many generations removed and possibly not even remember why they left for the SW galaxy in the first place...
Sigvatr wrote: The C'tan would single-handedly swipe the entire Star Wars universe off the map in a single strike.
All the C'Tan are withered husks of their former strength though. I'll also point out that in current fluff the necrons are not all awoken and that many of the slumbering tombs have been broken and corrupted by madness. There is still a long time before you can even claim that they would all awake.
I don't see the Eldar getting involved at all unless they the galactic Empire would fall to chaos or they had settled on a ton of maiden worlds or something along those lines. Any force the IoM sends will not be strong enough to handle the Star Wars universe as it could not even be the size of even 1 fleet since they are already fighting at full capacity. The force sent out would never be heard from again and be a complete waste of imperial resources
.
Besides that is WAY outside the light of the astronomiccum and relatively safe travel.
Both universes are populated with drooling morons and both are written by authors bad at science. It's a draw, as they create a vortex of ineptitude that breaks time and space.
Jayden63 wrote: The main reason why 40K vs ANYTHING else is a 40K win is because while other Sci-fi universes sometimes take a single person/plot/ship/etc and dial it up to 11, in 40K the dial starts at 12.
The logistics behind 40K are just colossally absurd. The entire concept relies on the idea that you just don't think about it too hard. All other Sci-Fi setting try to be human first so that the reader/watcher can hope to relate to what is going on and draw them deeper into the story on a personal level. Hell in Star Wars one of the main heros is an average Joe with a blaster and a pretty fast ship. Nothing in 40K is relatable to the average reader, heck the most average Joe in 40K is a guardsman who grew up in a death world and was being taught to fight since birth.
Ok - I take it back the Zentrti and/or Robotech Masters of Macross could curb stomp the imperium. But thats a special case.
Oh please there are many things that are far stronger than 40k.
Oh please there are many things that are far stronger than 40k.
Pokemon VS 40k.
Go.
Perhaps I should have said anything fron a movie or tv. I do realize that there are some pretry out there sci-fi stuff from various authors, but. Still unknown the the majority mass of humanity. Lets face it while not everyone has read ton f books, most have watched a movie or tv show or two.
Oh please there are many things that are far stronger than 40k.
Pokemon VS 40k. Go.
Perhaps I should have said anything fron a movie or tv. I do realize that there are some pretry out there sci-fi stuff from various authors, but. Still unknown the the majority mass of humanity. Lets face it while not everyone has read ton f books, most have watched a movie or tv show or two.
Doctor Who is far above anything in 40k (and also far above the Culture mentioned before), and it is practically a cultural thing in the UK.
Oh please there are many things that are far stronger than 40k.
Pokemon VS 40k.
Go.
Perhaps I should have said anything fron a movie or tv. I do realize that there are some pretry out there sci-fi stuff from various authors, but. Still unknown the the majority mass of humanity. Lets face it while not everyone has read ton f books, most have watched a movie or tv show or two.
Doctor Who is far above anything in 40k (and also far above the Culture mentioned before), and it is practically a cultural thing in the UK.
There's also Star Trek. The Federation may be a joke, but their huge collection of conceptual entities sure aren't.
So for the purposes of this discussion what are we considering canon for 40k? Some hard facts on both sides of production capabilities, numbers, tendencies, and advanced technology would be very useful for a direct comparison.
Perhaps I should have said anything fron a movie or tv. I do realize that there are some pretry out there sci-fi stuff from various authors, but. Still unknown the the majority mass of humanity. Lets face it while not everyone has read ton f books, most have watched a movie or tv show or two.
I was just kidding.
Theres a boatload of Universes that would likely crush 40k, I just picked Pokemon as a jest
Also, that Captain should be subbed for Smash fether. He rides a bike afterall.
Psienesis wrote: Then 40K takes it in a landslide, since the SW galaxy is *fethed* following the Vong invasion.
Which never happened, technically everything that isn't in the movies is now non canon...unless i've got my info wrong.
I do have full confidence in the 40k universe though, if the Ewoks could kill stormtroopers...well..
I think a space marine tactical squad may be able to single handedly breach and storm the hallways of a star destroyer and take it over without too much effort.
I think Q in Star Trek could clap his hands and wipe out either Star Wars or 40k invaders too.
Yes, because a sensei who's traded his immortality for a power sword is a really good choice to take on an entire galaxy of uberpsykers who have traded control for power.
Yes, because a sensei who's traded his immortality for a power sword is a really good choice to take on an entire galaxy of uberpsykers who have traded control for power.
Jedi aren't known for being all powerful they are balanced.
Unlike Pyskers who are technically balanced but their powers are more akin to magic than actual pyschic abilities.
Jedi are still, physically, just normal human(oids). Some can augment their physical capabilities with the Force, but its always been relatively limited.
Assassins on the other hand are super-human in their reflexes.
Given that Jedi are regularly trounced by non-force sensitive individuals who themselves are just above average in terms of physical abilities I think most Jedi and Sith would get shredded by assassins.
Jedi are still, physically, just normal human(oids). Some can augment their physical capabilities with the Force, but its always been relatively limited.
Assassins on the other hand are super-human in their reflexes.
Given that Jedi are regularly trounced by non-force sensitive individuals who themselves are just above average in terms of physical abilities I think most Jedi and Sith would get shredded by assassins.
Now I am just imagining a Caldiux assassin vs the Emperor's Dark Troopers.... Ah man that is an image to savor.
Jedi are still, physically, just normal human(oids). Some can augment their physical capabilities with the Force, but its always been relatively limited.
Assassins on the other hand are super-human in their reflexes.
Given that Jedi are regularly trounced by non-force sensitive individuals who themselves are just above average in terms of physical abilities I think most Jedi and Sith would get shredded by assassins.
Um. Reflexes that are able to reliably deflect blaster shots?
Jedi are still, physically, just normal human(oids). Some can augment their physical capabilities with the Force, but its always been relatively limited.
Assassins on the other hand are super-human in their reflexes.
Given that Jedi are regularly trounced by non-force sensitive individuals who themselves are just above average in terms of physical abilities I think most Jedi and Sith would get shredded by assassins.
Um. Reflexes that are able to reliably deflect blaster shots?
No, but fast enough to where you'll almost never get shot at in the first place.
Jedi reflection is also not totally reliable. They can't reflect every bolt, and they die to blaster fire all the time.
Jedi are still, physically, just normal human(oids). Some can augment their physical capabilities with the Force, but its always been relatively limited.
Assassins on the other hand are super-human in their reflexes.
Given that Jedi are regularly trounced by non-force sensitive individuals who themselves are just above average in terms of physical abilities I think most Jedi and Sith would get shredded by assassins.
Um. Reflexes that are able to reliably deflect blaster shots?
No, but fast enough to where you'll almost never get shot at in the first place.
Jedi reflection is also not totally reliable. They can't reflect every bolt, and they die to blaster fire all the time.
Only time I've seen them die to blaster fire was from overwhelming amounts. The ability to deflect (and regularly return to sender) blaster fire is an achievement most -normal- humans would never be able to do. Not to mention against trained shooters.
The point is, I'd wager assassins reflexes aren't better than a regular Jedi, much less a master. And Jedi can sense danger..
There's also 0 evidence the anti psyker assassin would effect Jedi in any way
Only time I've seen them die to blaster fire was from overwhelming amounts. The ability to deflect (and regularly return to sender) blaster fire is an achievement most -normal- humans would never be able to do. Not to mention against trained shooters.
The point is, I'd wager assassins reflexes aren't better than a regular Jedi, much less a master. And Jedi can sense danger..
There's also 0 evidence the anti psyker assassin would effect Jedi in any way
....
What?
Assassins are genetically modified in the 40k universe.
Example one:
For reasons still unknown, in 546.M32 Drakan would act against the High Lords of Terra. Deploying his elite assassins, the High Lords were slain to a man. A Space Marine strike force drawn from the Halo Brethren, Sable Swords, and Imperial Fists Chapters was scrambled to stop Vangorich. Storming the Assassinorum Temple on Terra, the force was assailed by a hundred Eversor Assassins. A sole Space Marine survived to reach Vangorich and slay the mad Grand Master with his Bolt Pistol. Afterwards, the Imperium descended into a period of anarchy
This particular battle lasted for three hours. Hundreds of Marines fell to the overwhelming Ork forces. Sniper fire rained down from the mountain sides, relentlessly targeting the Apothecaries. It should be noted that the sniper fire was not Ork in origin. Imperial issued longlas laser sniper rifles were used, burning holes straight through the helmet and eye-lenses of Chapter officers. Finally, a small company was able to break through the Ork lines and fight their way back to the Hive. Only ninety-six Marines survived and, to make matters worse, the last Apothecary was shot in the head within hours of arriving at the Hive; he was found slumped against his Rhino transport with a las burn straight through his temple. Their gene-seed lies unharvested on the surface of Armageddon and the remaining brothers have sworn to die alongside their fallen brothers, fighting to the last.[3]
All of these are highly trained individuals that have extended life spans and weapons that make lightsabers look like jokes.
A vindicare asassin would kill the enemy warleader with one shot. An Eversor Assassin would slaughter everything in sight. Including the jedi. We are talking about individuals who kill Astartes and even Xenos with ease.
Those quotes don't say anything about genetic modification.
All of these are highly trained individuals that have extended life spans and weapons that make lightsabers look like jokes.
And until you quantify "highly trained" or give some evidence for those weapons "making lightsabers look like jokes" this is a meaningless statement.
A vindicare asassin would kill the enemy warleader with one shot.
No, because the enemy warleader is actually a Culture drone in disguise and the vindicare's shot is dumped into hyperspace. And then the knife missile that was hovering behind the vindicare takes a photo of the vindicare's horrified expression before teleporting an antimatter bomb into the vindicare's brain. See how much fun it is when we make unsupported claims about how things will automatically go a particular way?
An Eversor Assassin would slaughter everything in sight.
No, because within sight is a Culture drone that traps the eversor in a containment field and takes it back home to join the drone's collection of primitive artifacts.
We are talking about individuals who kill Astartes and even Xenos with ease.
So what? Killing space marines is nothing special, even the WWI-in-space DKoK can do that.
I don't know enough about SW to put much sway in so just made a funny.
I also feel like people are underestimating Jedi, even if they wouldn't make that much more of a difference.
That's the thing - 40k actually has a Jedi-equivalent.
The Sensei were, in addition to being the Emperor's children in one way or another, a kind of psyker who could draw on 'untainted warp energy, the power of living things in an emotionally balanced state'. However, due to their limited (if completely safe) power source, their abilities were also limited - they could only use their power to enhance themselves (strength, reflexes, battle precognition, persuasiveness) - if they attempted to use offensive powers (warp lightning, for example) they would draw on tainted warp energy to do so and thus invite daemons in the usual manner... sound familiar?
Those quotes don't say anything about genetic modification.
All of these are highly trained individuals that have extended life spans and weapons that make lightsabers look like jokes.
And until you quantify "highly trained" or give some evidence for those weapons "making lightsabers look like jokes" this is a meaningless statement.
A vindicare asassin would kill the enemy warleader with one shot.
No, because the enemy warleader is actually a Culture drone in disguise and the vindicare's shot is dumped into hyperspace. And then the knife missile that was hovering behind the vindicare takes a photo of the vindicare's horrified expression before teleporting an antimatter bomb into the vindicare's brain. See how much fun it is when we make unsupported claims about how things will automatically go a particular way?
An Eversor Assassin would slaughter everything in sight.
No, because within sight is a Culture drone that traps the eversor in a containment field and takes it back home to join the drone's collection of primitive artifacts.
We are talking about individuals who kill Astartes and even Xenos with ease.
So what? Killing space marines is nothing special, even the WWI-in-space DKoK can do that.
What the hell does the culture have to do with this discussion?
also on the genetically modified
In addition, specialized use of genetics and human biology result in the Eversors' modification to be more efficient killers making them almost superhuman. Their bodies are modified to make them superb killing machines and include augmentations that strain the limits of their human physiology through the use of bionics and genetic alterations; the assassin is implanted with adrenal ducts, which speed up the brain's higher functions, allowing the Eversor to make complex calculations and tactical decisions in seconds. The adrenal ducts are also able to feed the brain, allowing the assassin to work briefly in a hard vacuum. In addition, a secondary heart is implanted in order to help the assassin's body cope with the various changes and to act as a fail-safe in case the primary heart is damaged in combat.
The Culexus Assassin is a creature that rivals the eldar in speed
Jedi don't, and the comparison was assassin vs. jedi.
Assassins from 40k are meant to take out targets there is without a doubt that the jedi can kill them, but the assassins would of done their job.
Do you have any evidence to support your assumption that the 40k assassin can take out their target? When you answer this question keep in mind the fact that Star Wars has things like security droids, weapon scanners, personal shields, etc and high-value targets are going to have that protection.
Jedi don't, and the comparison was assassin vs. jedi.
Assassins from 40k are meant to take out targets there is without a doubt that the jedi can kill them, but the assassins would of done their job.
Do you have any evidence to support your assumption that the 40k assassin can take out their target? When you answer this question keep in mind the fact that Star Wars has things like security droids, weapon scanners, personal shields, etc and high-value targets are going to have that protection.
Yes and the fact is that Assassins have killed Space Marines in droves Take the Age of Apostasy where the Assassins of the Imperium went rouge, they killed every member of the Highlords of Terra, and 10 different chapters were deployed against the Assassins and only one Astartes was able to get through and kill the Usurper. Considering Astartes are well known killers and move at super human speed. And are super humans. The fact is they almost lost to the Assassins. Assassins of the Imperium work by themselves. The fact is that even when you think that this person of high importance is unable to be defeated but a few weeks later, this man of importance is acting similarly but making some really bad decisions. In truth the Assassins of the imperium are so good at their job they can even impersonate their target.
The Callidius Assassins being famous for this. As some have even been able to impersonate Genestealers... GENESTEALERS. You can keep yelling on about how the 40k universe is ww2. But there is quite a bit of impressive tech in the Assassin's of the Imperium who take down empires on a regular basis.
They can have as many defenses as they can but the Imperium will just widdle them down till their command structure is nothing those persons of interests. AKA The Senate and members of the Star Wars Universe are somehow able to all be protected? Say. One day the senate is in secession over the imperium of man and the various enemies they are now facing. What would happen if one of those senators was say a Callidus Assassin with a bomb attached to her chest or maybe she placed it in the senate chambers. Or maybe she has posioned every one there. It doesn't matter what species you are or how much protection you have. If a small little green midget is somehow able to sneak up on the universe's most powerful dictator, I think someone who kills politicians and military commanders for a living has got a much better chance.
Oh the first attempt didn't succeed the imperium has got a billion more where that came from.
The Imperium unlike the common conception behind them they do not just needlessly throw away men and resources. They will look for subtler means and often seek the best and most efficient way possible. Send someone who will succeed in those attempts. If it is a high value target, then the imperium will send a team that will spend months developing a way to be as efficient and brutal as possible.
]546.M32 - The High Lords of Terra are killed to a man on the orders of the rebellious Grand Master of Assassins Drakan Vangorich.[11]
990.M32 - Culexus Assassin Dranos slays the Sorcerer Xantaka.[11]
340.M33 - The Callidus Assassin Mother Gullet steals away the son of the dangerously self-centered Governor Thygmus van Spracht.[11]
452.M34 - A Culexus Assassin assassinates the Eldar Farseer Lithandros-Esmanthil.[11]
372.M35 - Six Eversor Assassins massacre the Abhuman Thugrock Goliath blood cult of Thugrock Secundus[11]
501.M37 - Cardinal Jerome the Unsaintly is killed by a Vindicare Assassin after trying to secede from the Imperium[11]
563.M37 - Venenum Temple Assassin Urhua Thereaux, originally targeting the renegade Governor Yawell Morisha, instead finds him dead and replaced by an anti-Imperial democratic committee. Thereaux kills every committee member over the next three days.[11]
003.M38 - The progressive astrologer Lenas Scard is declared heretical and killed by the Vindicare Assassin Erasmus Menst.[11]
386143.M38 - A Callidus Assassin manages to end the rebellion on Orlenza Triartes by replacing the rebellious lords chief military advisor[11]
209.M38 - Callidus Assassin Militzia Scarvelli is able to impersonate a Gretchin, infiltrate the Ork mob of Big Mek Oilguzla, and assassinate him[11]
243.M39 - Dark Eldar pirate pilot Skyknife is killed by the Vindicare Assassin Dejedris Garamach after the sniper waited in position for six years[11]
353.M41 - The Culexus Assassin known as the Revoker kills a group of Rogue Psykers known as The Gestalt[11]
ca. 809.M41 - A Vindicare Assassin fails to neutralize Cardinal-Astral Xaphan on Vraks Prime, precipitating several days of civil disorder and ultimately the Siege of Vraks.[12]
886.M41 - An Eversor Assassin massacres the Tech-Priests of the lubricant-worshiping Lubricae Cult[11]
These are the famous ones. Each one is insane and skillful, always successful, Except if you are a primarch or you live in the eye of terror that is. (Which are impossible to get or kill without the act of god)
Not to mention the thousands of assassin droids they could build..
We have evidence of Jedi not only reflecting blaster shots, (which move about as fast as a fired projectile }
But also being able to deflect them so as they hit the firer.
We also have evidence that Jedi can fight in the air/falling.
Light sabers can basically absorb electricity and or "magic"
We also have proof of Jedi being able to sense danger from another room, with something as small as a large centipede.
Also, another note, SW has the technology to basically REGROW a hand to fully functional and feeling capacity.
(All of this is from the movie series)
Now then.
Let me use your argument. A Jedi can single handedly whoop a captain, and half his company because he is a master.
Assassin vs Jedi. As emotionally uninvested as I am in this discussion, I'd have to say my money's on the Jedi. Reasons:
1) An assassin is a rarely skilled, highly trained human. A Jedi on the other hand possesses skills that exceed the normal parameters of their species.
2) Assassin may have super fast reflexes, but a Jedi one-ups him by having similar reflexes AND being able to psychically pre-empt attacks and counter them with ease. Hell (s)he'd probably sense the disturbance in the force as a Calidus assassin sets up his sniper rifle 2 blocks away....then mind trick him into shooting himself in the face.
3) Jedi have been seen throughout the films engaging dozens, sometimes hundreds of enemies simultaneously and come out victorious.Now just to be clear I'm not claiming an assassin can't do that, just that I haven't seen or read about it...
4) It's been stated that Jedi die to massed blaster fire. This isn't a testament to their inferiority, but their phenomenal resiliance -the situations in which they died they were hopelessly outnumbered., and even then slew many foes! It may be that hey are too few to form an effective army, but that doesn't count against their individual power.
FWIW, all but like 5 jedi were killed by order 66(?) so I'd say they are good, just not war god good. (Also, how the feth did they not sense the danger then? I mean aniken was supposed to be a prodigy, but still.)
2) You haven't quantified any of those claims. A modern army will beat a WWI army of equal size, but both of them lose to a Culture warship. You're doing the equivalent of listing all of the feats the modern army is capable of against WWI-level enemies and then trying to use it as evidence that the modern army beats the Culture ship. Whether or not an assassin can kill a 40k target is irrelevant, unless you can first establish that the 40k target is a tougher opponent than the Star Wars equivalent. And you haven't done that.
raiden wrote: Not to mention the thousands of assassin droids they could build..
We have evidence of Jedi not only reflecting blaster shots, (which move about as fast as a fired projectile } But also being able to deflect them so as they hit the firer.
We also have evidence that Jedi can fight in the air/falling.
Light sabers can basically absorb electricity and or "magic"
We also have proof of Jedi being able to sense danger from another room, with something as small as a large centipede.
Also, another note, SW has the technology to basically REGROW a hand to fully functional and feeling capacity.
(All of this is from the movie series)
Now then.
Let me use your argument. A Jedi can single handedly whoop a captain, and half his company because he is a master.
And? What does that prove? An Assassin will just wait, An astartes is a super human, if they have difficulty killing them? How would a jedi fair? Not very well.
The Callidus assassins will just wait to the jedi are vulnerable slaughter them in the middle of the night. If a bunch of jedi are killed by an army of clones, what would happen if an army of Assassins just came in?
Well for one. Eversor Assassins would after death explode and kill everything in their vincity, we have seen their effectiveness by wiping out an entire planet to killing an entire host of spacemarines to a man. Sure you could bring out that jedi can fight against super humans, one yeah maybe a master could defeat a space marine, but a hundred? By themselves? A single normal jedi, outside of Anakin, Luke, Obiwan and Starkiller would not far well. As 200 jedi warriors attacked a genosian planet and less than three dozen survived. Against droids.... DROIDS
You know those machines that are held together by rusty bolts and are heavy reliant on their commanders. Its like as if jedi aren't good at massed battles. Its like as if their job is not to fight in wars as soldiers. The jedi would fair well against an assassin, that is. If an Assassin was dumb enough to tangle upfront with a jedi master. Likelihood is pretty low of a direct confrontation with the other Assassin Temples. The only ones that are upfront are Eversors.
And they are rarely deployed unless it is to terrify their opponents so most likely they would be deployed in areas that heavy resistance and are critical locations. (Such as the Kamino labs)
If a bunch of idiotic droids are able to kill jedi, what would a super human with extremely quick reflexes do to a jedi? Well the answer is pretty simple. The Jedi gets bolts slice all the way through them. Oh you cut the bolt in half, the weapon is still traveling at super sonic the fragments would get scattered and explode. Jedi do not do well against explosive rounds or anything explosive. You can't block an explosion unless your name is Yoda.
Assassin droids wouldn't do anything to an Imperium which hates robots with any sort of intelligence. How would an Assassin droid travel to holy terra or the Crusade Fleet high command? Somehow bypass the imperium's defenses and vast ships?
Assassin droids in the starwars universe do not have cloaking devices, or can shapeshift into their targets, they use brute force similar to the Eversor assassin. (As that has already been shown is more of a terror use, over the upfront and kill a single target.)
So what would the Assassin droid do? It would face, assassins that are human, and have one thing the droids lack. Creativity. Everything in the Imperium of man is human. Run by human brains. The Assassin droids can't hack the network like R2-D2 could.
Though I would pay to see an Assassin versus an Assassin War. The Star wars universe as vast and powerful as it is cannot fight against something that is under one banner. The Imperium is no stranger to alien races, or even human races that have more advanced weaponry. They have shown that their replicated arms and training of their troops is more valuable than pricy tech.
Granted a single jedi could kill a spacemarine, but it would depend on the jedi and the space marine. If it was say Rogal Dorn, then the jedi loses. If it was Ragnar Blackmane, the Jedi would lose, If it was a Pysker, the jedi would lose.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Also, how the feth did they not sense the danger then?
Act of plot. IIRC the clones were programmed to betray the jedi on a level that they weren't aware of until they received the order and opened fire, so their jedi targets had no hostile intent to notice until it was too late.
thegreatchimp wrote: Assassin vs Jedi. As emotionally uninvested as I am in this discussion, I'd have to say my money's on the Jedi. Reasons:
1) An assassin is a rarely skilled, highly trained human. A Jedi on the other hand possesses skills that exceed the normal parameters of their species.
2) Assassin may have super fast reflexes, but a Jedi one-ups him by having similar reflexes AND being able to psychically pre-empt attacks and counter them with ease. Hell (s)he'd probably sense the disturbance in the force as a Calidus assassin sets up his sniper rifle 2 blocks away....then mind trick him into shooting himself in the face.
3) Jedi have been seen throughout the films engaging dozens, sometimes hundreds of enemies simultaneously and come out victorious.Now just to be clear I'm not claiming an assassin can't do that, just that I haven't seen or read about it...
4) It's been stated that Jedi die to massed blaster fire. This isn't a testament to their inferiority, but their phenomenal resiliance -the situations in which they died they were hopelessly outnumbered., and even then slew many foes! It may be that hey are too few to form an effective army, but that doesn't count against their individual power.
Problem Callidius Assassins don't use sniper rifles.
Vindicare Assassins set up from miles upon miles away. Unless this jedi can sense a disturbance from I don't know. Thirty five miles away. I think the Vindicare Assassin would be fine.
Eversor wouldn't do well against jedi, neither would many others but the other assassins Culexus and Calldius would fair quite a bit. I mean can they sense that someone is shapeshifted? When even people who have heightened senses some how can't smell the different or tell the difference or someone who can predict the future somehow can't see that the assassin standing right behind them?
We are not talking about emano vs emano. We are talking about an Assassin who doesn't fight like that. That isn't their job in the imperium it is to go in and kill their target. The Eversors do that not the Calldius or Vindicare.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Also, how the feth did they not sense the danger then?
Act of plot. IIRC the clones were programmed to betray the jedi on a level that they weren't aware of until they received the order and opened fire, so their jedi targets had no hostile intent to notice until it was too late.
And thats where we get into the territory of. "Well then thats a flaw."
I am pretty sure they would have difficulty finding out who is an Assassin and who is not.
Asherian Command wrote: An astartes is a super human, if they have difficulty killing them? How would a jedi fair? Not very well.
{Citation needed.}
Jedi are far above normal human levels.
The Callidus assassins will just wait to the jedi are vulnerable slaughter them in the middle of the night.
And the jedi will just wait until the callidus assassins are vulnerable and slaughter them in the middle of the night. See how much fun it is to make up unsupported claims about how things will go?
If a bunch of jedi are killed by an army of clones, what would happen if an army of Assassins just came in?
The jedi would sense the threat and fight back, since the assassins don't have the plot-device "we're loyal until our hidden 'stab you in the back' programming is activated" option to conceal their intent. And who knows if the assassins' disguises would even fool Star Wars security systems.
As 200 jedi warriors attacked a genosian planet and less than three dozen survived. Against droids....
Against huge numbers of droids. This is like saying that modern soldiers are less effective than medieval knights because the knights can win at 1000:1 odds.
Oh you cut the bolt in half, the weapon is still traveling at super sonic the fragments would get scattered and explode.
Alternatively, the bolt is incinerated by the lightsaber's blade and nothing is left to hit the jedi. Or the jedi uses the force to push the bullet away. You keep looking for all these gimmicks for 40k to win but you never make the same assumptions about the other side.
I don't know. But since you're making the assumption that the jedi can't sense that someone is shapeshifted (or an assassin trying to kill them) I'm assuming you have some evidence to support your claim? Perhaps some canon examples of jedi failing to detect callidus assassins?
And thats where we get into the territory of. "Well then thats a flaw."
It's a flaw that only works if you have the plot device gimmick available, and 40k doesn't.
I am pretty sure they would have difficulty finding out who is an Assassin and who is not.
Asherian Command wrote: An astartes is a super human, if they have difficulty killing them? How would a jedi fair? Not very well.
{Citation needed.}
Jedi are far above normal human levels.
The Callidus assassins will just wait to the jedi are vulnerable slaughter them in the middle of the night.
And the jedi will just wait until the callidus assassins are vulnerable and slaughter them in the middle of the night. See how much fun it is to make up unsupported claims about how things will go?
If a bunch of jedi are killed by an army of clones, what would happen if an army of Assassins just came in?
The jedi would sense the threat and fight back, since the assassins don't have the plot-device "we're loyal until our hidden 'stab you in the back' programming is activated" option to conceal their intent. And who knows if the assassins' disguises would even fool Star Wars security systems.
As 200 jedi warriors attacked a genosian planet and less than three dozen survived. Against droids....
Against huge numbers of droids. This is like saying that modern soldiers are less effective than medieval knights because the knights can win at 1000:1 odds.
Oh you cut the bolt in half, the weapon is still traveling at super sonic the fragments would get scattered and explode.
Alternatively, the bolt is incinerated by the lightsaber's blade and nothing is left to hit the jedi. Or the jedi uses the force to push the bullet away. You keep looking for all these gimmicks for 40k to win but you never make the same assumptions about the other side.
I don't know. But since you're making the assumption that the jedi can't sense that someone is shapeshifted (or an assassin trying to kill them) I'm assuming you have some evidence to support your claim? Perhaps some canon examples of jedi failing to detect callidus assassins?
And thats where we get into the territory of. "Well then thats a flaw."
It's a flaw that only works if you have the plot device gimmick available, and 40k doesn't.
I am pretty sure they would have difficulty finding out who is an Assassin and who is not.
And this has turned into a SW vs Imperium debate, aren't we forgetting about all the other races? Even tau (the most peaceful race, that dislikes civilian causalities) have tech that supernovas stars (albeit, in their case, accidentally at first), and the warriors of all of the races (other than humans and tau) are super-humanly skilled/strong, tau have their tech and tactics, and the imperial guard has reserves ( ).
Now that being said, I don't think it would be one-sided, the SW universe unified would stand up pretty well, but would be brought down by the pure volume of troops the 40k universe can pump out if nothing else.
Co'tor Shas wrote: And this has turned into a SW vs Imperium debate, aren't we forgetting about all the other races? Even tau (the most peaceful race, that dislikes civilian causalities) have tech that supernovas stars (albeit, in their case, accidentally at first), and the warriors of all of the races (other than humans and tau) are super-humanly skilled/strong, tau have their tech and tactics, and the imperial guard has reserves ( ).
Now that being said, I don't think it would be one-sided, the SW universe unified would stand up pretty well, but would be brought down by the pure volume of troops the 40k universe can pump out if nothing else.
Yeah sadly that is what peregrine does he always just points at one thing and only targets that because he knows he is fighting a futile debate, a meaningless one at that. Which has been debated....
The thing is that we are talking about two universes with completely different rules. I mean Peregrine for all his wisdom believes that the tabletop is law. Forgetting that game mechanics are neverly actually comparable to what the fluff is. As has been stated the fluff is more of a subisidary to go by. As game mechanics are game mechanics. because according to certain game mechanics which are there for balance reasons. If we followed that then jedi would have 100 HP, 10 attack and 12 defense and a space marine would have 1 hp, 1 attack, 3 defense. See the issue here? we are trying to compare two rulesets in terms of gameplay. No matter what we do we can't actually prove our points as the two universes have never crossed over. Its just fans throwing slurs at each other to try and prove that their universe is better than the other. I personally love star wars, and I hate warhammer 40k. Infact I was in support of 40k for a long time till I learned about the technology the imperium actually had and then I realized that the star wars stuff is more inline with reality while 40k was not. Meaning that starwars technology was technically inferior.
I mean look at dark souls some of the models are just placeholders to the actual lore characters, who were much stronger than their gamey form. Everything in dark souls has to be killable though that is the rule. Similar to 40k where everything is put down to numbers so that way the game is fair and somewhat balanced. Game Mechanics do not equate to how powerful a weapon is. What the hell does strength four mean in the starwars universe? Literally nothing. You can spout out how that the game mechanics are supposed to represent 40k, but that is forgetting that many of the time that isn't true. If we went by that then 40k would be very different. And There would be alot more space marines than their currently is in the fluff.
Which has been the majority of posts been pointing too.
Which is "Oh you killed that army, heres another one."
The Star wars universe has never been good at wars of attrition. I mean look at the clone wars and how much havoc that still laid upon the starwars universe.
raiden wrote: Pretty sure your assassins would be brought down in with much less than those 200 Jedi fought. (Hell, id wager it was 5000:1 that fight.)
You ever wonder how many marines died from the assassin explosions after being best to death with bolters?
Bolter rounds being disintigrated by light sabers is actually a highly probable outcome.
Bolters are explosive rounds. They wouldn't be disintergrated, light sabers don't disintergrate they are a heat source, and bolters are made from ceramite which is highly resistant to heat.
The thing is that you are throwing assassins in a war like situation that isn't how assassins work. Space marines would slaughter the jedi if it came to that. Jedi are warriors pure and simple. Against an organized military who not only have thousands of troops and subsidiaries the jedi would lose.
raiden wrote: Pretty sure your assassins would be brought down in with much less than those 200 Jedi fought. (Hell, id wager it was 5000:1 that fight.)
You ever wonder how many marines died from the assassin explosions after being best to death with bolters?
Bolter rounds being disintigrated by light sabers is actually a highly probable outcome.
I'm pretty sure it takes less than 5000 clones, or fething droids to kill jedi. I think you are seriously over-estimating jedi here. They are good, but nowhere near that good.
And light sabers could just disintegrate bolt round, or they cause them to detonate, meaning a shrapnel grenade going off less than a foot away from them.
Asherian Command wrote: Yeah sadly that is what peregrine does he always just points at one thing and only targets that because he knows he is fighting a futile debate, a meaningless one at that. Which has been debated....
No, I target one thing because going through every single unsupported claim you make would be a tedious waste of time. I pick the worst offenders to deal with and ignore the other subtle variations of that same claim (all with the same flaws).
I mean Peregrine for all his wisdom believes that the tabletop is law. Forgetting that game mechanics are neverly actually comparable to what the fluff is.
You know why I said that? To point out the absurdity of your "I hate the EU therefore it isn't canon" approach. If you can dismiss all of that inconvenient EU evidence then I can do the same with everything outside of the 40k tabletop game.
As game mechanics are game mechanics. because according to certain game mechanics which are there for balance reasons. If we followed that then jedi would have 100 HP, 10 attack and 12 defense and a space marine would have 1 hp, 1 attack, 3 defense. See the issue here?
I don't see any issue at all. That analysis overwhelmingly favors the jedi, but "40k loses horribly" is a perfectly acceptable answer. The biggest issue here seems to be the fact that you really want 40k to win and any analysis that doesn't give you the conclusion you want must be wrong.
No matter what we do we can't actually prove our points as the two universes have never crossed over.
We can prove our points by quantifying them. Don't just say "superhuman reflexes", provide some numbers on how fast a jedi/assassin/etc can react. Don't just say "lance batteries are really powerful", give specific numbers for how much energy they deliver per shot and compare them to Star Wars firepower and defense. Etc.
Game Mechanics do not equate to how powerful a weapon is.
Why not? When you answer this question remember that GW does not have any policy on what is or isn't canon.
raiden wrote: Pretty sure your assassins would be brought down in with much less than those 200 Jedi fought. (Hell, id wager it was 5000:1 that fight.)
You ever wonder how many marines died from the assassin explosions after being best to death with bolters?
Bolter rounds being disintigrated by light sabers is actually a highly probable outcome.
Bolters are explosive rounds. They wouldn't be disintergrated, light sabers don't disintergrate they are a heat source, and bolters are made from ceramite which is highly resistant to heat.
The thing is that you are throwing assassins in a war like situation that isn't how assassins work. Space marines would slaughter the jedi if it came to that. Jedi are warriors pure and simple. Against an organized military who not only have thousands of troops and subsidiaries the jedi could lose.
A Jedi would wreck a regular space marine, a master would put up a good fight, and have a high chance of beating a chapter master. Especially if that chapter master is fighting with a hammer or fist. (Which even in the fluff are slower than other weapons)
I agree, Jedi are not soldiers they are elite warriors, and, as stated in the cannon, keepers of the peace. They can't fight a war by themselves, but they can most assuredly stand against your assassins, and I'd wager agaisnt marines as well.
A light saber is condensed plasma, I'm pretty sure plasma even cuts through terminator armor...
Asherian Command wrote: They wouldn't be disintergrated, light sabers don't disintergrate they are a heat source, and bolters are made from ceramite which is highly resistant to heat.
" The weapon consisted of a blade of pure plasma emitted from the hilt and suspended in a force containment field. The field contained the immense heat of the plasma, protecting the wielder, and allowed the blade to keep its shape. The hilt was almost always self-fabricated by the wielder to match his or her specific needs, preferences and style. The hilt was also built similarly to his or her master's lightsaber as a mark of respect. Due to the weightlessness of plasma and the strong gyroscopic effect generated by it, lightsabers required a great deal of strength and dexterity to wield, and it was extremely difficult—and dangerous—for the untrained to attempt using.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber
The 40k universe is too divided by to defeat Star Wars and at this point you must remember:
1. The Necrons are not all awoken yet and will likely not to do so for several 1,000 years. They don't have the numbers (currently) to compete on the level that is necessary to beat an entire galaxy.
2. Tau dont have the numbers to compete and are considered to be the least powerful faction in 40k as their empire is tiny in comparison to the aimperium and their tech is not as good as orks, and eldar.
3. The Eldar is a dying race and although extremely powerful they would neither be able to defeated the star wars galaxy nor would they want to.
4. The Imperium is beset on all sides and it cannot focus its war machine on the SW galaxy or else they will fall.
5. The orks would be a major threat that would require burning entire planets in order to stop their advances. The SW galaxy would probably suffer defeats before learning the hard way how to keep them down.
6. Tyranids have a variable amount of numbers with range from a fleet the size of star systems to much smaller( with some claiming artistic represention and not actual facts, but its up for debate) . The tyranisa would regardless be a massive threat and require specially adopted tactics and the employment of non-organic soldiers in a deep-space environment ( as to limit bio mass) to fight them.
7. Chaos corrupts those who allow it bur those affected would just as likely fight 40k forces as much as the SW ones. Except now empowered by chaos.
It will be a hard fight but its actually pretty good chances for either sides success.
raiden wrote: Pretty sure your assassins would be brought down in with much less than those 200 Jedi fought. (Hell, id wager it was 5000:1 that fight.)
You ever wonder how many marines died from the assassin explosions after being best to death with bolters?
Bolter rounds being disintigrated by light sabers is actually a highly probable outcome.
Bolters are explosive rounds. They wouldn't be disintergrated, light sabers don't disintergrate they are a heat source, and bolters are made from ceramite which is highly resistant to heat.
The thing is that you are throwing assassins in a war like situation that isn't how assassins work. Space marines would slaughter the jedi if it came to that. Jedi are warriors pure and simple. Against an organized military who not only have thousands of troops and subsidiaries the jedi could lose.
A Jedi would wreck a regular space marine, a master would put up a good fight, and have a high chance of beating a chapter master. Especially if that chapter master is fighting with a hammer or fist. (Which even in the fluff are slower than other weapons)
I agree, Jedi are not soldiers they are elite warriors, and, as stated in the cannon, keepers of the peace. They can't fight a war by themselves, but they can most assuredly stand against your assassins, and I'd wager agaisnt marines as well.
A light saber is condensed plasma, I'm pretty sure plasma even cuts through terminator armor...
Erm. its been theorized it is plasma. But it has never been stated it is plasma in the movies. Which it hasn't ever. In the EU it has been. But the EU is not canon so that throws that theory out the box.
Marines are rarely on their own. Jedi would not know that they would be fighting an assassin until it was too late. An assassin is given a task they will do it. Kill the assassin then the imperium sends another one and probably send in the Culex Assassin in which would slaughter every jedi in the vinicity. As according to the 40k side of things JEdi would technically be pyskers. And would die by the near presence of one.
The thing is that you are discounting that a space marine would ever be by themselves. Why would a military leader? AKA a chapter master ever be on the frontline? They are never on the frontline. They send their company captains in with a hundred astartes. Super humans vs supposed super humans won't go the way you would want them to.
I am seeing now that the two of you are just so obessed with the starwars universe it is quite useless to even talk to you.
Then without a doubt. With the gods of the warp and ctan working together. Then the starwars universe is dead in the blink of an eye as chaos warp portals open all over corsuant and nurgle sends the plague of zombies in. By the time the imperium or any of the others arrive. The starwars universe will be dead, being swallowed whole by the warp and a new eye of terror twice the size of the old eye of terror will be born.
There is no winning in this fight for star wars. It only ends with them dying valiantly or dying killing each other as they are destroyed from within.
A jedi would be lured to chaos or any pysker in the star wars universe would shift to the side of chaos with the simple promise of power.
Yep the imperium wouldn't even lift a hand by the time they arrive chaos would of done the job for them.
Neither is anything in 40k except my personal fanfiction about a single guardsman surviving in the ruins of the final war. So clearly 40k loses because a single naked guardsman (all of his weapons and armor are gone) can't win against a whole galaxy-scale empire.
See how much fun it is when we invent our own canon policies that just happen to support the side we want to win?
Jedi would not know that they would be fighting an assassin until it was too late.
Alternatively, the jedi would sense a threat through the force, move to stop the assassin, and discover that the local security droids have already identified the assassin and killed it.
An assassin is given a task they will do it.
And when a jedi is given a task they will do it, so once someone says "go kill 40k" that's what will happen.
As according to the 40k side of things JEdi would technically be pyskers.
No they wouldn't be.
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Asherian Command wrote: Then the starwars universe is dead in the blink of an eye as chaos warp portals open all over corsuant and nurgle sends the plague of zombies in.
Kind of like how chaos opens warp portals in every important location in the Imperium and instantly wins? Oh wait, that doesn't happen, so I guess chaos isn't actually capable of that.
Since when are they unified? That doesn't make even the slightest bit of sense. The 40k factions rarely collaborate together and some of them would never collaborate( I.e necrons and chaos, imperium and chaos, eldar and necrons, (most) eldar and chaos)
Also to say that the dark gods would 'crush' star wars is facetious. They have directly intervened before why would they now? They prefer to play the great game and getting an entire galaxy of beings to join in the fun would be more on their agenda.
Also Jedi are not psykers. They do not draw power from the warp. That is merely a theory of yours.
raiden wrote: Pretty sure your assassins would be brought down in with much less than those 200 Jedi fought. (Hell, id wager it was 5000:1 that fight.)
You ever wonder how many marines died from the assassin explosions after being best to death with bolters?
Bolter rounds being disintigrated by light sabers is actually a highly probable outcome.
Bolters are explosive rounds. They wouldn't be disintergrated, light sabers don't disintergrate they are a heat source, and bolters are made from ceramite which is highly resistant to heat.
The thing is that you are throwing assassins in a war like situation that isn't how assassins work. Space marines would slaughter the jedi if it came to that. Jedi are warriors pure and simple. Against an organized military who not only have thousands of troops and subsidiaries the jedi could lose.
A Jedi would wreck a regular space marine, a master would put up a good fight, and have a high chance of beating a chapter master. Especially if that chapter master is fighting with a hammer or fist. (Which even in the fluff are slower than other weapons)
I agree, Jedi are not soldiers they are elite warriors, and, as stated in the cannon, keepers of the peace. They can't fight a war by themselves, but they can most assuredly stand against your assassins, and I'd wager agaisnt marines as well.
A light saber is condensed plasma, I'm pretty sure plasma even cuts through terminator armor...
Erm. its been theorized it is plasma. But it has never been stated it is plasma in the movies. Which it hasn't ever. In the EU it has been. But the EU is not canon so that throws that theory out the box.
Marines are rarely on their own. Jedi would not know that they would be fighting an assassin until it was too late. An assassin is given a task they will do it. Kill the assassin then the imperium sends another one and probably send in the Culex Assassin in which would slaughter every jedi in the vinicity. As according to the 40k side of things JEdi would technically be pyskers. And would die by the near presence of one.
The thing is that you are discounting that a space marine would ever be by themselves. Why would a military leader? AKA a chapter master ever be on the frontline? They are never on the frontline. They send their company captains in with a hundred astartes. Super humans vs supposed super humans won't go the way you would want them to.
I am seeing now that the two of you are just so obessed with the starwars universe it is quite useless to even talk to you.
Funny thing, I actually know more about the 40k universe than starwars. (I know a fair bit about SW though)
Um, have you ever read 40k fluff? I'm ANY major engagement the chapter master is almost always present, and fighting. Some lead the charge others don't, I never said they would be on the front lines, but the Jedi would reach them. After disposing of those pesky captains.
No, the force =\= to the warp, I doubt they would even effect the Jedi in any way.
Jedi> any assassin in a frontal confrontation, its like comparing a ninja to a samurai.
EU is as much cannon as it ever was, Disney didn't say it wasnt, they simple said that they arent obligated to not contradict it at times.
raiden wrote: Pretty sure your assassins would be brought down in with much less than those 200 Jedi fought. (Hell, id wager it was 5000:1 that fight.)
You ever wonder how many marines died from the assassin explosions after being best to death with bolters?
Bolter rounds being disintigrated by light sabers is actually a highly probable outcome.
Bolters are explosive rounds. They wouldn't be disintergrated, light sabers don't disintergrate they are a heat source, and bolters are made from ceramite which is highly resistant to heat.
The thing is that you are throwing assassins in a war like situation that isn't how assassins work. Space marines would slaughter the jedi if it came to that. Jedi are warriors pure and simple. Against an organized military who not only have thousands of troops and subsidiaries the jedi could lose.
A Jedi would wreck a regular space marine, a master would put up a good fight, and have a high chance of beating a chapter master. Especially if that chapter master is fighting with a hammer or fist. (Which even in the fluff are slower than other weapons)
I agree, Jedi are not soldiers they are elite warriors, and, as stated in the cannon, keepers of the peace. They can't fight a war by themselves, but they can most assuredly stand against your assassins, and I'd wager agaisnt marines as well.
A light saber is condensed plasma, I'm pretty sure plasma even cuts through terminator armor...
Erm. its been theorized it is plasma. But it has never been stated it is plasma in the movies. Which it hasn't ever. In the EU it has been. But the EU is not canon so that throws that theory out the box.
Marines are rarely on their own. Jedi would not know that they would be fighting an assassin until it was too late. An assassin is given a task they will do it. Kill the assassin then the imperium sends another one and probably send in the Culex Assassin in which would slaughter every jedi in the vinicity. As according to the 40k side of things JEdi would technically be pyskers. And would die by the near presence of one.
The thing is that you are discounting that a space marine would ever be by themselves. Why would a military leader? AKA a chapter master ever be on the frontline? They are never on the frontline. They send their company captains in with a hundred astartes. Super humans vs supposed super humans won't go the way you would want them to.
you mean the same superhumans who died in droves to assassins which are clearly outmatched by Jedi?
I am seeing now that the two of you are just so obessed with the starwars universe it is quite useless to even talk to you.
obviously you are so obsessed with 40k that it is useless to talk to you. See I can make a baseless and edged post too.
Then without a doubt. With the gods of the warp and ctan working together.
you mean the things that want nothing other than to destroy each other and act as anathema in to each other in their respective realms. Also chaos gods don't directly involve themselves and the c'tan are shattered.
Then the starwars universe is dead in the blink of an eye as chaos warp portals open all over corsuant and nurgle sends the plague of zombies in. By the time the imperium or any of the others arrive. The starwars universe will be dead, being swallowed whole by the warp and a new eye of terror twice the size of the old eye of terror will be born.
Really? I must of missed when that happened in the 40k universe and chaos rofl stomped everyone else.
There is no winning in this fight for star wars. It only ends with them dying valiantly or dying killing each other as they are destroyed from within.
A jedi would be lured to chaos or any pysker in the star wars universe would shift to the side of chaos with the simple promise of power.
your totally right. I forgot that the dark side of the force totally isn't a thing that already exists/ offers that and Jedi still dont choose it. Silly me.
Yep the imperium wouldn't even lift a hand by the time they arrive chaos would of done the job for them.
Neither is anything in 40k except my personal fanfiction about a single guardsman surviving in the ruins of the final war. So clearly 40k loses because a single naked guardsman (all of his weapons and armor are gone) can't win against a whole galaxy-scale empire.
See how much fun it is when we invent our own canon policies that just happen to support the side we want to win?
Everything in 40k is canon.
Meanwhile in Star Wars, the EU is definitely non-canon. George Lucas has made it very clear that only the movies (including the Clone Wars) are canon. Who are you to argue against the creator of Star Wars himself?
Official =/= canon. For example, Star Trek canon policy (set by the IP owner) is that the movies and TV shows are canon and nothing else is. So there are lots of officially-licensed Star Trek novels but they often contradict each other and there's very little attempt to incorporate them into a single unified world. Each author gets their own little non-canon copy of the universe to work with, and the canon IP ignores all of them.
Star Trek has a very strict canon policy, 40k doesn't. Besides, BL novels are not just officially licensed, they are written by GW itself (BL just being the name of GW's book store, they are one and the same company). BL novels are as official and canon as you could possibly get.
Besides, GW's stance on canon is that canon does not matter and you should make up your own mind.
Sure, which means that "the novels are non-canon and only the tabletop game matters" is just as legitimate as "the novels are canon". If Asherian Command can dismiss the Star Wars EU as "fan spank" and reject the evidence for firepower/ship counts/etc in the EU then I can do the same for the high-end stuff in 40k.
Really? That is your argument? I know we are all playing with toy soldiers here, but that doesn't mean your arguments should be childish as well.
The EU can be dismissed as non-canon because this is the official stance of the current IP owners. Meanwhile, in 40k, a BL novel is the same level of canon as a codex. You should give good reasons for using one source but not the other.
In 40k, a single spaceship is enough to destroy planets and this happens quite often.
Really? I haven't ever seen this happen in the tabletop game. Are you sure you aren't thinking of non-canon fanfiction here?
Either you know little about 40k background or you are just back to being your usual self again.
It happens a lot in canon 40k background, and no, there are no spaceships on the tabletop so obviously it doesn't happen there. Your argument is like saying people in the Star Wars universe all die of constipation because you never see them take a gak in the movies.
Furthermore, 40k factions such as the Dark Eldar or Necrons have the capability to destroy not just planets, but to extinguish entire stars like it is nothing.
And yet even in the novels they rarely, if ever, use this power. Necrons supposedly have all of this god-like power, but then they lose battles against WWI armies like the DKoK. The obvious conclusion here is that when a Necron character or a novel/codex/etc from the Necron point of view talks about having the ability to extinguish stars with a trivial effort it's just empty boasting.
First of all, DKoK are not a WWI army. They use WWI tactics, but their weapons are far more powerful. Also, the fact that the Necrons rarely if ever use their most powerful weapons doesn't mean they don't have them. They could very well have many different reasons for not using such weapons.
Star Wars weapons are ridiculously underpowered compared to those in 40k. Compare the AT-AT to a Warhound Titan, a blaster to a gaussflayer, a Star Destroyer to a Mars Class Battlecruiser or the Star Destroyer to Cyclonic Torpedoes and you will see.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: Since when are they unified? That doesn't make even the slightest bit of sense. The 40k factions rarely collaborate together and some of them would never collaborate( I.e necrons and chaos, imperium and chaos, eldar and necrons, (most) eldar and chaos)
Since the first post. That's the entire premace. "All of Wh40k Vs All of starwars."
DoomShakaLaka wrote: Since when are they unified? That doesn't make even the slightest bit of sense. The 40k factions rarely collaborate together and some of them would never collaborate( I.e necrons and chaos, imperium and chaos, eldar and necrons, (most) eldar and chaos)
Also to say that the dark gods would 'crush' star wars is facetious. They have directly intervened before why would they now? They prefer to play the great game and getting an entire galaxy of beings to join in the fun would be more on their agenda.
Also Jedi are not psykers. They do not draw power from the warp. That is merely a theory of yours.
You did say all starwars vs all of wh40k.
We are including everything
Starwars has no gods to speak of that are as intervening as the chaos gods are they intervene all the time in 40k they ressurect random chaos space marines for lulz and they create demons.
We haven't even gotten to the more powerful beings.
The Star Wars canon is what is officially regarded as "canonical", or officially part of a story, in the Star Wars media franchise.
The official Star Wars canon consists of the six released Star Wars theatrical feature films, the Star Wars animated film and television series The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels, and any expanded universe material released after April 25, 2014. The upcoming feature film Star Wars: The Force Awakens (along with the untitled Episode VIII and Episode IX) will also be a part of the official canon.[1]
On April 25, 2014, Lucasfilm officially revised and solidified the canon, stating that all previously released Expanded Universe works would be rebranded under the new Star Wars Legends banner, in order to ensure a flowing timeline with the release of the Star Wars sequel trilogy. They also announced that all future Star Wars stories will be considered C-canon or above, with guidance coming from the Star Wars story group.[2]
raiden wrote: The Star Wars canon is what is officially regarded as "canonical", or officially part of a story, in the Star Wars media franchise.
The official Star Wars canon consists of the six released Star Wars theatrical feature films, the Star Wars animated film and television series The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels, and any expanded universe material released after April 25, 2014. The upcoming feature film Star Wars: The Force Awakens (along with the untitled Episode VIII and Episode IX) will also be a part of the official canon.[1]
On April 25, 2014, Lucasfilm officially revised and solidified the canon, stating that all previously released Expanded Universe works would be rebranded under the new Star Wars Legends banner, in order to ensure a flowing timeline with the release of the Star Wars sequel trilogy. They also announced that all future Star Wars stories will be considered C-canon or above, with guidance coming from the Star Wars story group.[2]
So the EU isn't canon we are all in agreement here.
With that I have to agree.
Its a half baked theory. I was reading through previous threads that were talking about this and I found that one. But if we had to do a comparision is very similar to 40k so if the two universes ever collided, the force is basically the warp just unrefined.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: Since when are they unified? That doesn't make even the slightest bit of sense. The 40k factions rarely collaborate together and some of them would never collaborate( I.e necrons and chaos, imperium and chaos, eldar and necrons, (most) eldar and chaos)
Also to say that the dark gods would 'crush' star wars is facetious. They have directly intervened before why would they now? They prefer to play the great game and getting an entire galaxy of beings to join in the fun would be more on their agenda.
Also Jedi are not psykers. They do not draw power from the warp. That is merely a theory of yours.
You did say all starwars vs all of wh40k.
We are including everything
Starwars has no gods to speak of that are as intervening as the chaos gods are they intervene all the time in 40k they ressurect random chaos space marines for lulz and they create demons.
We haven't even gotten to the more powerful beings.
And by removing the background, allegiances, tendencies, etc of the factions is ALL of 40k how? I'm confused. If it can't happen by fluff then irs not 40k. That's not 40k that's you making some weird fanfic ultimate team up.
Resurrecting random chaos Marines, and creating daemons is hardly the same level of interference as destroying the entire inhabitants of a galaxy and creating a new eye of terror. Besides the Chaos Gods "could not kill or corrupt" Draigo who is literally one person ( that's right hate the story all you wantbut it us canon) . If they can't do that then how can you claim they can do it to the heroes and denizens of SW?
What more powerful beings? All of the "big hitters" I 40k are dead/ shattered/ lost/ severely injured / unknown.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: The 40k universe is too divided by to defeat Star Wars and at this point you must remember:
1. The Necrons are not all awoken yet and will likely not to do so for several 1,000 years. They don't have the numbers (currently) to compete on the level that is necessary to beat an entire galaxy. 2. Tau dont have the numbers to compete and are considered to be the least powerful faction in 40k as their empire is tiny in comparison to the aimperium and their tech is not as good as orks, and eldar. 3. The Eldar is a dying race and although extremely powerful they would neither be able to defeated the star wars galaxy nor would they want to. 4. The Imperium is beset on all sides and it cannot focus its war machine on the SW galaxy or else they will fall. 5. The orks would be a major threat that would require burning entire planets in order to stop their advances. The SW galaxy would probably suffer defeats before learning the hard way how to keep them down. 6. Tyranids have a variable amount of numbers with range from a fleet the size of star systems to much smaller( with some claiming artistic represention and not actual facts, but its up for debate) . The tyranisa would regardless be a massive threat and require specially adopted tactics and the employment of non-organic soldiers in a deep-space environment ( as to limit bio mass) to fight them. 7. Chaos corrupts those who allow it bur those affected would just as likely fight 40k forces as much as the SW ones. Except now empowered by chaos.
It will be a hard fight but its actually pretty good chances for either sides success.
I would disagree. There is still no way they could combat the Necrons or hell even the tyranids. The Tyranids will just keep coming. Tyranids eat all biomatter. Not just organic. Biomatter is basically everything. Except rock without iron or other minerals or materials.
Though combined all these forces would wipe the floor of the starwars universe.
One faction by themselves is not enough to conquer a galaxy. But combined probably they could. The Imperium could not defeat the entire galaxy of star wars, but they could pacify it in three hundred years given enough time and resources. That and they are not at war with the other groups. Resistance would stay but it wane in time, as the Imperium would probably just wipe the floor of the Star Wars Universe.
I think alot of people forget that the 40k universe has FTL outside of the Warp. Its just not as powerful nor as quick a the warp is. Think of Warp Travel as faster than FTL. It is very common in the imperium of man and if Peregrine tells me to source I am going to tell him to read the Armaggedon Books and every piece of 40k fluff that points to this.
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raiden wrote: Force is in no way the warp, the force is part of the material realm, the warp is not.
Also remember we are using the same fluff with guardsman killing marines, your "super humans" with massed lasers.
Erm you mean the lore where it took a hundred las rifles? Or the one where one las rifle from an extremely skilled guardsmen who has been fighting chaos spacemarines all his life killed one with a well placed shot?
Yeah I remember that part of the fluff. Yes I know who killed the astartes.
Yes Astartes can die and are mortal. They are super humans and do die. But star wars is not facing their foes in a line one at a time. We are talking about full out war. Where the imperium has a crusade fleet vs a major star wars fleet. The star wars fleet would be smashed by the sheer size and scale of the imperium's fleet. We are talking about the ground war between the imperium and the star wars universe's armies. We are talking about the might of Titan legions, grey knights, assassins, planet killers, black stone fortresses (mind you those could wipe out the entire starwars fleets in miliseconds) we would see space marines, guardsmen, white shields, knight legions, everything the imperium has to offer, in one battlefield in one galaxy. That would be the might of the imperium. The Full Might mind you, The entire imperium's hammer falling down one location with no interfance with any other race. The Imperium I think would do fine. If the great crusade had finished the imperium would of rained ceasely and the tyranid hive fleets would of been destroyed instantly.
WE are also talking about a universe where a single clone trooper killed a jedi, a bunch of clone troopers killed most of them in their own stronghold mind you. A storm trooper is called the best shots in the galaxy and yet can't hit luke skywalker or a barn for that matter.
We are also talking about a universe where the most elite troops the empire had was beaten by a bunch of natives with sticks. So please tell me how the 40k universe doesn't stand a chance
No, the concept of "canon" in 40k simply does not exist. GW has refused to offer any kind of public canon policy, even one as broad as "40k material is canon if and only if it is published by GW". You personally might believe that a 40k novel published by GW is canon and my fanfiction isn't, but that's not a position endorsed by GW.
Meanwhile in Star Wars, the EU is definitely non-canon. George Lucas has made it very clear that only the movies (including the Clone Wars) are canon. Who are you to argue against the creator of Star Wars himself?
I can argue against the creator because the creator no longer owns the IP rights to the thing he created.
Besides, BL novels are not just officially licensed, they are written by GW itself (BL just being the name of GW's book store, they are one and the same company). BL novels are as official and canon as you could possibly get.
Again, GW has never said that BL novels are canon. Nor have they said "material written by GW employees is canon".
The EU can be dismissed as non-canon because this is the official stance of the current IP owners.
No it can't, because Disney's policy is not a straightforward "movies only" rule. They've stated that they are willing to contradict the EU, but licensed products (FFG's games, for example) are still using EU material.
Meanwhile, in 40k, a BL novel is the same level of canon as a codex.
And both are the same level of canon as my personal fanfiction, according to GW.
It happens a lot in canon 40k background
And we'll stop right here, because there is no such thing as "canon 40k background". The material you're referring to is no more or less canon than my fanfiction where 40k happens on a single planet and spaceships don't exist.
First of all, DKoK are not a WWI army.
You're right, they fall short of being a WWI army in many ways. At least WWI armies had functional tanks, while the LRBT is a broken mess that would instantly immobilize itself and only "works" because the authors and artists in 40k don't know anything about tank design.
Also, the fact that the Necrons rarely if ever use their most powerful weapons doesn't mean they don't have them. They could very well have many different reasons for not using such weapons.
They could have them, but the most likely answer is "they don't have them and they're just bragging". The alternative is "we didn't want to win that battle anyway" absurdity where the Necrons deliberately lose to much weaker enemies instead of winning the battle with their superior weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In the future a medium of fluff should be specified. As in, from codices only, from novel series X, from RPG game X. For 40k its the only way to do it
DoomShakaLaka wrote: Since when are they unified? That doesn't make even the slightest bit of sense. The 40k factions rarely collaborate together and some of them would never collaborate( I.e necrons and chaos, imperium and chaos, eldar and necrons, (most) eldar and chaos)
Also to say that the dark gods would 'crush' star wars is facetious. They have directly intervened before why would they now? They prefer to play the great game and getting an entire galaxy of beings to join in the fun would be more on their agenda.
Also Jedi are not psykers. They do not draw power from the warp. That is merely a theory of yours.
You did say all starwars vs all of wh40k.
We are including everything
Starwars has no gods to speak of that are as intervening as the chaos gods are they intervene all the time in 40k they ressurect random chaos space marines for lulz and they create demons.
We haven't even gotten to the more powerful beings.
And by removing the background, allegiances, tendencies, etc of the factions is ALL of 40k how? I'm confused. If it can't happen by fluff then irs not 40k. That's not 40k that's you making some weird fanfic ultimate team up.
Resurrecting random chaos Marines, and creating daemons is hardly the same level of interference as destroying the entire inhabitants of a galaxy and creating a new eye of terror. Besides the Chaos Gods "could not kill or corrupt" Draigo who is literally one person ( that's right hate the story all you wantbut it us canon) . If they can't do that then how can you claim they can do it to the heroes and denizens of SW?
What more powerful beings? All of the "big hitters" I 40k are dead/ shattered/ lost/ severely injured / unknown.
THAT'S WHAT THE ENTIRE PREMISE OF THE THREAD IS
If you read that, you would realize that it's not galactic empire vs imperium it's unified starwars universe vs unified 40k universe.
On the draigo side, it's bad fluff, but the grey knights train to resist chaos, so it's not wholly unreasonable (still really stupid though). There was this one thing from the fire warrior, before the non-warp fluff for the tau was written, where an etheral's emotions were so in check, that a greater deamon could not find a single way in, and I'd imagine jedi master's are rather like that, although we certainly wold have jedi like Aniken or Luke, full of emotion. All sith too for that matter.
Out of the big hitters, all the chaos primarchs are still alive AFAIK, just not entering the mortal realm (as that would require GW to advance the setting). And there are plenty of heroes out there. Now people like the empy are out of the fight (assuming we're operating from only "current" 40k), but there are still powerful people.
raiden wrote: On the topic, any setting vs an entirely allied 40k setting is fethed. -any-
Not really. A single Culture civilian ship could slaughter the entire 40k setting if it didn't get bored first and move on to something more challenging. And the Culture isn't even at the top of the scifi power scale.
raiden wrote: On the topic, any setting vs an entirely allied 40k setting is fethed. -any-
Not really. A single Culture civilian ship could slaughter the entire 40k setting if it didn't get bored first and move on to something more challenging. And the Culture isn't even at the top of the scifi power scale.
Necrons. They literally shoot dead stars as ammo, and tell our physics to go feth itself.
raiden wrote: Necrons. They literally shoot dead stars as ammo, and tell our physics to go feth itself.
And yet they lose to the other 40k factions. If Necrons were even close to the level of the Culture then a single Necron ship would have already slaughtered the entire Imperium.
raiden wrote: Necrons. They literally shoot dead stars as ammo, and tell our physics to go feth itself.
And yet they lose to the other 40k factions. If Necrons were even close to the level of the Culture then a single Necron ship would have already slaughtered the entire Imperium.
Except they don't lose. As you said, they don't care enough to do it. It would bore them.
Jedi are still, physically, just normal human(oids). Some can augment their physical capabilities with the Force, but its always been relatively limited.
Assassins on the other hand are super-human in their reflexes.
Given that Jedi are regularly trounced by non-force sensitive individuals who themselves are just above average in terms of physical abilities I think most Jedi and Sith would get shredded by assassins.
Um. Reflexes that are able to reliably deflect blaster shots?
No, but fast enough to where you'll almost never get shot at in the first place.
Jedi reflection is also not totally reliable. They can't reflect every bolt, and they die to blaster fire all the time.
Only time I've seen them die to blaster fire was from overwhelming amounts. The ability to deflect (and regularly return to sender) blaster fire is an achievement most -normal- humans would never be able to do. Not to mention against trained shooters.
The point is, I'd wager assassins reflexes aren't better than a regular Jedi, much less a master. And Jedi can sense danger..
There's also 0 evidence the anti psyker assassin would effect Jedi in any way
Assassins are able to dodge supersonic bullets. Not because they have precog or anything, but because they're actually fast enough to dodge bullets.
They tear Jedi a new one in any engagement, especially the Eversors.
raiden wrote: On the topic, any setting vs an entirely allied 40k setting is fethed. -any-
Not really. A single Culture civilian ship could slaughter the entire 40k setting if it didn't get bored first and move on to something more challenging. And the Culture isn't even at the top of the scifi power scale.
Necrons. They literally shoot dead stars as ammo, and tell our physics to go feth itself.
40K Space Battles take place over several minutes at least, several hours or days at most.
Culture ship-to-ship warfare lasts for a fraction of a second. It literally is so fast that it takes god-computers so large that their CPU's stretch into multiple dimensions to even comprehend them. To Humans it looks like they ended just as they began. Their warfare operates by them flinging black holes at a fraction of C or teleporting them right into the enemy. Their ships can also erase an entire flotilla of NECRON ships by braking. Culture ships use something called the "grid" for FTL travel, a dimension tied to the Big Bang that is made of infinite energy. By stopping abruptly, they rip a hole in space that dumps ungodly amounts of energy into realspace that would simply erase a Necron armada with little fuss, even planets or stars would get wiped.
To put into perspective how powerful the Culture is, the Culture Minds, their god-computers, are so advanced, so fast, and so massive that they would be effectively immune to all Chaos Corruption as they would be able to destroy parts of their minds touched by Scrap-Code faster than Scrap Code is physically capable of spreading. Culture Minds are so powerful that they could contain and manage Chaos Corruption, allowing their citizens to worship and receive Chaos Boons without the slaughter, taint, or daemonic invasions.
They couldn't kill the Chaos Gods, but they are fully capable of muzzling their presence in the Materium. Even the ability of Daemons to possess and blow up stars wouldn't impress Culture Minds much.
raiden wrote: Except they don't lose. As you said, they don't care enough to do it. It would bore them.
Necrons absolutely lose. They win more than they lose and are only defeated with heavy losses, but they do lose sometimes. And when they win they still have to fight a conventional battle, they don't just press a button and instantly annihilate the entire Imperial force. They're clearly superior to the Imperium (individually at least) but not by the kind of obscene margin that the Culture and similar high-end civilizations have. You could literally assemble the Imperium's entire fleet in one place and a Culture warship would probably kill the whole thing in less than a second. Necron ships don't do that.
raiden wrote: Except they don't lose. As you said, they don't care enough to do it. It would bore them.
Necrons absolutely lose. They win more than they lose and are only defeated with heavy losses, but they do lose sometimes. And when they win they still have to fight a conventional battle, they don't just press a button and instantly annihilate the entire Imperial force. They're clearly superior to the Imperium (individually at least) but not by the kind of obscene margin that the Culture and similar high-end civilizations have. You could literally assemble the Imperium's entire fleet in one place and a Culture warship would probably kill the whole thing in less than a second. Necron ships don't do that.
If anything the Imperium would splinter upon contact with the Culture, with large chunks of the Adeptus Mechanicus flocking to the Culture by mistaking the Culture Minds for the Omnissiah in shear scope. The Culture would likely end up dismantling much of the 40K galaxy, with many races such as Tau, Eldar, and Humans being assimilated into their culture (har har) while factions like the Necrons and Orks are completely obliterated. Unlike the Eldar, the Culture could maintain their hedonistic society without having to worry about being nommed by Slaanesh thanks to Minds purging taint as it appears on a per-second basis.
You do realize that dead stars are basically black holes right?
The book literally states that they fire this at speeds of a fraction under the speed of light, and their ships can not only move at that same speed in real space, they can do it from a "still" position, and even reverse direction in a second. They also "fade" when shot at, having most enemy fire -pass through them- as if they weren't there, and any fire that hits (coming form an entire imperium fleet) leave scratches and dents at the most
Wyzilla wrote: If anything the Imperium would splinter upon contact with the Culture, with large chunks of the Adeptus Mechanicus flocking to the Culture by mistaking the Culture Minds for the Omnissiah in shear scope. The Culture would likely end up dismantling much of the 40K galaxy, with many races such as Tau, Eldar, and Humans being assimilated into their culture (har har) while factions like the Necrons and Orks are completely obliterated. Unlike the Eldar, the Culture could maintain their hedonistic society without having to worry about being nommed by Slaanesh thanks to Minds purging taint as it appears on a per-second basis.
True, and that's a far more interesting story than the "one ship slaughters everything in 40k" outcome that the Culture is capable of. A Special Circumstances operation to fix the 40k universe would be interesting to see.
(Of course in my personal fanfiction, which is just as canon as anything else in 40k, the Tau ethereals were a Special Circumstances intervention to manipulate the Tau into eventually fixing 40k. So the real answer to the OP is that Star Wars loses because once they threaten the Tau the Culture steps in to protect their investment.)
raiden wrote: Necrons never lose, they win, or decide to leave.
You do realize that dead stars are basically black holes right?
The book literally states that they fire this at speeds of a fraction under the speed of light, and their ships can not only move at that same speed in real space, they can do it from a "still" position, and even reverse direction in a second. They also "fade" when shot at, having most enemy fire -pass through them- as if they weren't there, and any fire that hits (coming form an entire imperium fleet) leave scratches and dents at the most
Which are repaired quickly by the metal itself.
This is where I pull out another quote of mine.
"You can't beat the Culture it is so powerful that even DBZ would lose to it."
This is one of those fights you could never win.
The Culture are incredibly powerful and I don't even know how they were brought up as they aren't even apart of any of these two universes though.
raiden wrote: Pretty sure your assassins would be brought down in with much less than those 200 Jedi fought. (Hell, id wager it was 5000:1 that fight.)
You ever wonder how many marines died from the assassin explosions after being best to death with bolters?
Bolter rounds being disintigrated by light sabers is actually a highly probable outcome.
Lightsabers wouldn't work on physical objects like bullets. Even if you vaporize a bullet, there's now a several thousand degree cloud of vapor traveling at the same speed. A Jedi blocking a hail of bullets, let alone bolters, would just end up covered in third degree burns, screaming as parts of his skin melt off and his robe fuses to his flesh.
raiden wrote: Necrons never lose, they win, or decide to leave.
Against 40k factions, maybe. Against the Culture (or other high-end civilizations) they lose, even if it means obliterating every Necron planet to prevent them from respawning.
The book literally states that they fire this at speeds of a fraction under the speed of light, and their ships can not only move at that same speed in real space, they can do it from a "still" position, and even reverse direction in a second. They also "fade" when shot at, having most enemy fire -pass through them- as if they weren't there, and any fire that hits (coming form an entire imperium fleet) leave scratches and dents at the most
And yet the Imperium's ships can hit Necron ships and can destroy them. Contrast this with Culture warships that fight battles in fractions of a second at high FTL speeds and consider "planet-destroying firepower" a lol-worthy estimate of their capabilities.
Asherian Command wrote: The Culture are incredibly powerful and I don't even know how they were brought up as they aren't even apart of any of these two universes though.
Actually they are part of 40k now. To quote myself:
Of course in my personal fanfiction, which is just as canon as anything else in 40k, the Tau ethereals were a Special Circumstances intervention to manipulate the Tau into eventually fixing 40k. So the real answer to the OP is that Star Wars loses because once they threaten the Tau the Culture steps in to protect their investment.
Asherian Command wrote: The Culture are incredibly powerful and I don't even know how they were brought up as they aren't even apart of any of these two universes though.
Actually they are part of 40k now. To quote myself:
Of course in my personal fanfiction, which is just as canon as anything else in 40k, the Tau ethereals were a Special Circumstances intervention to manipulate the Tau into eventually fixing 40k. So the real answer to the OP is that Star Wars loses because once they threaten the Tau the Culture steps in to protect their investment.
Okay stop it you have only entered that into your own no please go away you aren't adding anything your just trying to get this thread closed.
Asherian Command wrote: Okay stop it you have only entered that into your own no please go away you aren't adding anything your just trying to get this thread closed.
Why should I stop it? According to GW my fanfiction is just as canon (or not canon) as anything else in 40k. Why should we follow your policies about what is and isn't canon instead of GW's?
The Hrud though would prove to be a massive problem for Star Wars if they were bloodlusted. They're teleporting entropic aliens who may be tied to the warp, can kill anything by commanding entropy itself. Enough Hrud can even kill a planet by aging the core until it rots and the planet is destroyed.
Star Wars has no way to counter bloodlusted wandering swarms of the Xenos, who just show up on your world, burrow, and demolish it. With the more recent fluff on them, I'm not even certain you can truly kill them. They may be daemonic in nature regarding their entropic powers.
Wyzilla wrote: The Hrud though would prove to be a massive problem for Star Wars if they were bloodlusted. They're teleporting entropic aliens who may be tied to the warp, can kill anything by commanding entropy itself. Enough Hrud can even kill a planet by aging the core until it rots and the planet is destroyed.
Star Wars has no way to counter bloodlusted wandering swarms of the Xenos, who just show up on your world, burrow, and demolish it. With the more recent fluff on them, I'm not even certain you can truly kill them. They may be daemonic in nature regarding their entropic powers.
Since the original point of the "my fanfiction is canon" argument seems to have been forgotten, I'll post it again:
The biggest problem in analyzing 40k is deciding what sources to use. Currently it's a mess of contradictory sources and GW's policy is "canon is a stupid question, we're not going to tell you how to play with your toys". So before you can answer questions like "who wins in 40k vs. Star Wars" you have to decide which version of 40k you're talking about. And if you want any credibility you have to do it in a way that isn't just "40k is really awesome" fanboyism. So far, Asherian Command, you haven't done this at all.
Asherian Command wrote: Okay stop it you have only entered that into your own no please go away you aren't adding anything your just trying to get this thread closed.
Why should I stop it? According to GW my fanfiction is just as canon (or not canon) as anything else in 40k. Why should we follow your policies about what is and isn't canon instead of GW's?
And in my fan fiction your culture ship went back in time (they had help from the necrons) and murdered your great great great grandparents before you were born and then decided to off themselves so all of this trolling can end.
Now, with that said, I do agree with the main point of it, which seems to be that without a reasonable set of guidelines/acceptable canon that all can work withon, and avoiding hyperbole and rediculous exaggerations/assumptions, any discussion is fairly pointless...well more so than any x vs y discussion is in the first place.
Although even if you came up with something fairly simple like only material from SW movies and only material from current 40k codexes, you are not going to get "weapon A produces X amount of energy which will vaporize Y inches of material B".
Yes and the fact is that Assassins have killed Space Marines in droves Take the Age of Apostasy where the Assassins of the Imperium went rouge, they killed every member of the Highlords of Terra, and 10 different chapters were deployed against the Assassins and only one Astartes was able to get through and kill the Usurper.
That was the Beheading, the Age of Apostasy was four thousand years later and had nothing to do with the Assassins, who stayed well clear of the whole mess because they were scared of the Brides of the Emperor.
The Callidius Assassins being famous for this. As some have even been able to impersonate Genestealers... GENESTEALERS. You can keep yelling on about how the 40k universe is ww2. But there is quite a bit of impressive tech in the Assassin's of the Imperium who take down empires on a regular basis.
That Callidus needed surgery, and was told she'd never be able to turn into anything else ever again. And she only impersonated a hybrid.
]
209.M38 - Callidus Assassin Militzia Scarvelli is able to impersonate a Gretchin, infiltrate the Ork mob of Big Mek Oilguzla, and assassinate him[11]
243.M39 - Dark Eldar pirate pilot Skyknife is killed by the Vindicare Assassin Dejedris Garamach after the sniper waited in position for six years[11]
353.M41 - The Culexus Assassin known as the Revoker kills a group of Rogue Psykers known as The Gestalt[11]
ca. 809.M41 - A Vindicare Assassin fails to neutralize Cardinal-Astral Xaphan on Vraks Prime, precipitating several days of civil disorder and ultimately the Siege of Vraks.[12]
886.M41 - An Eversor Assassin massacres the Tech-Priests of the lubricant-worshiping Lubricae Cult[11]
These are the famous ones. Each one is insane and skillful, always successful, Except if you are a primarch or you live in the eye of terror that is. (Which are impossible to get or kill without the act of god)
Oh, you have no idea how funny that was to read. You disproved your own argument!
Wyzilla wrote: The Hrud though would prove to be a massive problem for Star Wars if they were bloodlusted. They're teleporting entropic aliens who may be tied to the warp, can kill anything by commanding entropy itself. Enough Hrud can even kill a planet by aging the core until it rots and the planet is destroyed.
Star Wars has no way to counter bloodlusted wandering swarms of the Xenos, who just show up on your world, burrow, and demolish it. With the more recent fluff on them, I'm not even certain you can truly kill them. They may be daemonic in nature regarding their entropic powers.
I think there are canon examples of guard regiments defeating the Hrud, but I'm not sure. Where does their fluff cone from?
The Hrud fluff only really appeared in Xenology, AFAIK, until a handful of them made an appearance at the end of the Forge of Mars trilogy and basically nearly caused the end of the galaxy by exiting the building too quickly.
raiden wrote: Necrons. They literally shoot dead stars as ammo, and tell our physics to go feth itself.
And yet they lose to the other 40k factions. If Necrons were even close to the level of the Culture then a single Necron ship would have already slaughtered the entire Imperium.
Except they don't lose. As you said, they don't care enough to do it. It would bore them.
Even more than Tau, Necrons seem to win the overwhelming majority of the encounters they have with IoM. Off the top of my head, the DoW expansions Dark Crusade and Soulstorm are the only times the IoM managed to annihilate significant necron forces
DoomShakaLaka wrote: Yes usually the IoM's victories actually means that they lost a significant amount of forces and cost them just as much as the enemy.
What victories? Other than the two THQ games, I've never read any fluff where the necrons actually -lost-, unless it was a small reference to a tomb world gone mad and taken over by an AI.
The cannon endings are considered cannon. (As all 40k fluff is cannon)
*spoiler*
So, necrons lost DoW Dar crusade by not being killed, but buried under teratons of rubble and planet crust, (sacrificing several companies in the process) and most likely only killed about half or more of the necrons. (As their main "base" was probably unharmed.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: So what you're saying is that all we need to beat (sorta) the necrons is to drop a continent on them.
Well then....
It's the equivalent of a guardsman killing a space marine with a single lasgun shot.
1 in a billion.
Maybe, maybe not. I do also seem to remember that Some Necrons were enslaved to some savage humans who believed themselves to be scrawny orks. GorkaMorka FTW
Maybe, maybe not. I do also seem to remember that Some Necrons were enslaved to some savage humans who believed themselves to be scrawny orks. GorkaMorka FTW
More like they were in an alliance, or the Necrons treated the humans as slaves. The word 'necron' was never uttered in that fluff, and the Necrons were never seen directly - its just that when the Orks tried to invade the Digga tombs, they were wiped out by metal skeletons that spat green lightning.
Star Wars is a kiddie adventure tale of an empire of pewpewing ceramite teapot helmeted soldiers fighting some puny rebellion of teddy bears, 2 leged dogs, fishmen and adolescents. Between the two most evil guys in the universe one is a good guy waiting to come out and the second sees future except where it would matter. Good prevails etc.
40k is a formerly 15+ nasty, chainsaw to the guts billions on the boarding ramp soul rape no hope universe.
Star Wars wouldnt even know what hit them, no matter the actual strenght of a turbolaser or chewba a fur resistance.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: If EU Star Wars can be a thing, so can C'Tan.
C'Tan win.
Also, serious question, why all the Culture references? I believe the thread is about
All of Wh40k Vs All of starwars.
I don't believe that the Culture have ever been mentioned in either canons?
Well according to peregrine it is part of his interpretation of the lore.. And that he doesn't believe in that so it doesn't exist. As he sees all 40k lore is unreliable and cannot be believed at all. instead he says that ever since gw does not have a canon policy that none of it is canon. Which is completely false. I mean he might be taking that Aaron Dembowski quote a bit too far. As he did say interpretation to minor degrees. (Not Peregrine, Aaron, who is an accreditted author, but he is not part of GW's main writing core so we take that with a grain of salt.)
Please post GW's canon policy, with direct quotes from GW.
So basically this:
Yep, that's exactly what you're doing. You really don't like the fact that GW doesn't care about having a sensible canon policy, so you refuse to accept it and pretend that your personal opinions about what is and isn't canon have official authority behind them.
It boils down to what in SW can fight off both the C'tan AND the Nids when they start to eat all the worst things in the SW universe and make nids based on them?
Moving Sarlacs with guns.
Force Sensitive Nids (once they nom some mediclorines (which all living things have in SW) they will start breeding nids with mediclorines to the max).
Those things that eat Rancors .... with guns.
I mean... seriously. The nids would probably just breed a giant mouth that force pulls everything into it's razor toothed gaping maw. Everything is fethed.
What happens when the Bioships get a Mediclorine infusion? They stop needing to send things down to a planet. The ship itself just force pulls chunks of the planet off into their mouths so large they eat ships.
Well Peregrine, if you've admitted that what you've done is treated your headcanon as canon, and assuming logically that all headcanons are equal (as I see no reason why yours or anyone else's should be more valid), then why is Asherian wrong? They are right... in their own headcanon. Just as much as you are. Or I am. Or anyone else who has an opinion.
Great. Now there is no canon, no right/true intepretation and no way to quantify anything beyond "what I say goes." Which then removes any point and purpose of this whole thread. Great job.
If we are to have ANY decent results, maybe we could settle on universal ground rules such as time periods, what is and is not canon/valid, and other details which bog down this thread, perhaps set by the OP?
Wyzilla wrote: The Hrud though would prove to be a massive problem for Star Wars if they were bloodlusted. They're teleporting entropic aliens who may be tied to the warp, can kill anything by commanding entropy itself. Enough Hrud can even kill a planet by aging the core until it rots and the planet is destroyed.
Star Wars has no way to counter bloodlusted wandering swarms of the Xenos, who just show up on your world, burrow, and demolish it. With the more recent fluff on them, I'm not even certain you can truly kill them. They may be daemonic in nature regarding their entropic powers.
I think there are canon examples of guard regiments defeating the Hrud, but I'm not sure. Where does their fluff cone from?
End of McNeil's Mechanicum series. Upgrades the Hrud from "incredibly dangerous" to "Worse house guests than Orks. All of them."
Because he believes that his personal interpretation is objectively true, not merely his personal opinion.
Great. Now there is no canon, no right/true intepretation and no way to quantify anything beyond "what I say goes." Which then removes any point and purpose of this whole thread. Great job.
What's your point? If 40k's canon issues get in the way of answering the OP's question then that's just how it is. Don't blame me for pointing out the inconvenient truth.
If we are to have ANY decent results, maybe we could settle on universal ground rules such as time periods, what is and is not canon/valid, and other details which bog down this thread, perhaps set by the OP?
The problem is that if you try to create a 40k canon policy based only on source type (codices are canon, FFG games aren't, etc) you still have contradictions everywhere. To turn those conflicting sources into a coherent whole you have to throw stuff out based on its contents, and that ends up being subjective preference. If source A says that weapon X has Y firepower and source B gives a much lower number then which one do you consider canon? Do you throw out the low number or the high number? There's no way to decide objectively, so the answer is determined entirely by whether you want 40k to have high firepower or low firepower.
So, in the case of 40k vs. Star Wars, determining 40k canon policy essentially means deciding which side wins the fight and then selecting the 40k evidence that supports your conclusion to be "canon".
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Well Peregrine, if you've admitted that what you've done is treated your headcanon as canon, and assuming logically that all headcanons are equal (as I see no reason why yours or anyone else's should be more valid), then why is Asherian wrong? They are right... in their own headcanon. Just as much as you are. Or I am. Or anyone else who has an opinion.
Great. Now there is no canon, no right/true intepretation and no way to quantify anything beyond "what I say goes." Which then removes any point and purpose of this whole thread. Great job.
If we are to have ANY decent results, maybe we could settle on universal ground rules such as time periods, what is and is not canon/valid, and other details which bog down this thread, perhaps set by the OP?
Well I think there is canon as that has not be said no to yet. By GW at all. We have writers have said that but what is their say on it if they aren't the primary IP holders? 40k's fluff for alot of people is only from GW and the black libarary, and many disregard FFG because it isn't part of GW. But just using it in a discussion and saying no that doesn't count because it doesn't fit my world head canon is well, not a great way to have a discussion. That is just simple dismisal and use of quite a few fallacies in this case, just saying "NO MY OPINION IS RIGHT LOOK AT ME I AM RIGHT." Is completely childish, I don't anyone would listen to someone who just argues over and over deliver the same point with no evidence other than they believe themselves to be right, saying No I don't believe in that, only my opinion is right is not exactly how one would debate in these threads. Of course knowing peregrine he will point to me using it and then using a fallacy to try to prove his point. AS he alway does, then using a argumentive fallacy to prove his point by doing the same thing he is talking about. Is it ironic I am doing the same thing or am I doing it purposeful is more of the question at hand.
We have had some people who have interesting points of view weigh on it, but it doesn't mean their opinion is any more credible than someone elses. Unless they are dismissive and are arguing for the sake of arguing or they are just acting like an elitist believing their opinion higher than others.
There is a difference between the authors literally saying this is no longer canon to your own intrepretation of something you legally don't own. If you legally own any IP what you say is law. And Peregrine and all of us really can't say anything like that, because none of us own the IP. We really can't say our headcanon is law because it isn't most times it is an agreement between most of the people in the hobby. Such is history in a galaxy as large as 40k there is bound to be contradictions (AS there are in real life). Historical views and views in general on particular events are going to be skewed as most history is based on first hand accounts, and most times we read the bias of a first hand (primary) source. Journals of soldiers are just going to be as skewed as the oppposite side's view. A knights view of a certain time period will be skewed as well. As they see things differently than other people.
The thing is that our world is built up on interpretations of history and events. Similar to the 40k universe, where it is interpreted by various peoples. Each weighing in on events with their own opinions. You can see this with the difference between the inqusitior books vs the Imperial Guard, the Inqusition is more upfront, while the IG one is more propaganda. (Similar to the space marines in a manner) They are all points of view or looking glasses we use to see into this universe.
We only follow what the IP says, we know its limits but we do know that any other writing outside of GW is only interpretation and does not equal canon, its fanfiction.
Except in the starwars universe the EU doesn't exist anymore it is a parrell dimension outside of the starwars universe.
Meaning the EU is not in the star wars universe at all.
(as the current IP Holder has stated that it is no longer canon it is no longer canon)
We really can't say if the 40k universe is trustworthy as it is hidden behind layers upon layers of fog, sometimes the narrator is not trustworthy in writing we refer to them as unreliable narrators. (Similar to the great gatsby). Where they speak in half truths and falsify certain parts of history to make it sounds better, or because they want the story to be exciting.
Asherian Command wrote: 40k's fluff for alot of people is only from GW and the black libarary.
That's nice. That's not GW policy though, so I don't see why it is relevant.
And Peregrine and all of us really can't say anything like that, because none of us own the IP.
You're right, which is why I'm not saying that I have any authority to decide what is and isn't canon according to GW. I'm just pointing out that GW has no (public) canon policy and my canon policy is just as legitimate as yours. You can't say "novels are canon" because I can just as easily say "novels aren't canon".
but we do know that any other writing outside of GW is only interpretation and does not equal canon, its fanfiction.
No we do not know that. Please stop acting like you have authority to decide what is and isn't canon. According to GW fanfiction has the exact same canon status as a codex or BL novel.
(as the current IP Holder has stated that it is no longer canon it is no longer canon)
I've told you several times already that this is not true. Disney has said that they are willing to contradict the story of the EU, but they haven't said "none of the EU exists at all". In fact, licensed Star Wars products (FFG's games, for example) continue to use EU material.
Asherian Command wrote: 40k's fluff for alot of people is only from GW and the black libarary.
That's nice. That's not GW policy though, so I don't see why it is relevant.
And Peregrine and all of us really can't say anything like that, because none of us own the IP.
You're right, which is why I'm not saying that I have any authority to decide what is and isn't canon according to GW. I'm just pointing out that GW has no (public) canon policy and my canon policy is just as legitimate as yours. You can't say "novels are canon" because I can just as easily say "novels aren't canon".
but we do know that any other writing outside of GW is only interpretation and does not equal canon, its fanfiction.
No we do not know that. Please stop acting like you have authority to decide what is and isn't canon. According to GW fanfiction has the exact same canon status as a codex or BL novel.
(as the current IP Holder has stated that it is no longer canon it is no longer canon)
I've told you several times already that this is not true. Disney has said that they are willing to contradict the story of the EU, but they haven't said "none of the EU exists at all". In fact, licensed Star Wars products (FFG's games, for example) continue to use EU material.
Let me dig up a quote....
The Star Wars canon is what is officially regarded as "canonical", or officially part of a story, in the Star Wars media franchise.
The official Star Wars canon consists of the six released Star Wars theatrical feature films, the Star Wars animated film and television series The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels, and any expanded universe material released after April 25, 2014. The upcoming feature film Star Wars: The Force Awakens (along with the untitled Episode VIII and Episode IX) will also be a part of the official canon.[1]
On April 25, 2014, Lucasfilm officially revised and solidified the canon, stating that all previously released Expanded Universe works would be rebranded under the new Star Wars Legends banner, in order to ensure a flowing timeline with the release of the Star Wars sequel trilogy. They also announced that all future Star Wars stories will be considered C-canon or above, with guidance coming from the Star Wars story group.[2]
I am pretty sure it is no longer canon as Disney released this. They have official stances on it. Meaning Disney did say that but you are being selective and ignoring what has already been stated.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: What do you mean the hrud nearly destroyed the galaxy by "leaving too fast"?
What exactly did they do and how did they know it almost destroyed the galaxy?
Here
According to the record-keeping of the Hrud, they were an ancient race that predated the time when Mankind became the masters of space and their tribes have been living a parasitic existence for longer than what was known to humans.[1b] The Imperium of Man first encountered the Hrud as far back as the era of the Great Crusade and during the early era the noisome warrens of these aliens were cleansed by the Emperor according to the Liber Historica Vangelia.[5a] During this time, the Iron Warriors Adeptus Astartes were in the midst of a cleansing of Hrud warrens on Gugann.[9a] After the formation of the Inquisition, it became an institution that became the first to become aware of emergent menaces to the Imperium which they have proven with Necron awakenings, the arrival of the Tyranid hive fleets and the advent of Hrud Migrations along with other similar events.[11] Numerous Hrud infestations are known to had plagued the region of the Maelstrom alongside more than twenty Ork empires and countless human pirate strongholds.[5b] At some point, the Hrud are known to had infested Mortenken's World until they were driven from the holy city by the hands of Daenyathos who was a legendary philosopher soldier of the Soul Drinkers.[19] Around seven hundred and thirty years ago, the Ultramarines battled the Hrud in the Battle of Ortecha IX which saw Battle Brother Olfric perish though he would be avenged by his comrades that ate the heart of his killer.[3]
In 980[23].M35, a major Hrud war against the Imperium took place known as the Hrud Rising.[20] The infestations led to the Dark Angels Chapter being deployed against them but after clearing two of the designated three sectors they withdraw for their own mysterious reasons. [21]
In 101.M40, a Hrud migration forced an Ork Freeboota Klan from the Edge Void to desperately send their forces at the world of Haakonath where they engaged the Star Phantoms Chapter. The Space Marine forces fought against the Ork attackers and eliminated them thus believing that they had achieved a victory in the defence of their homeworld. However, the Hrud threat began to manifest with a vast temporal-warp rift that was surging into the star system from the outer void. At its vanguard came the massive Hrud migration force that were trapped within the rifts event horizon. Despite putting up a valiant defence, the Star Phantoms ended fighting a lost cause as every Hrud-thing that coalesced from the shadows which was struck down was replaced by another dozen misshapen forms that distorted space with their very presence. The presence of the Hrud had notable impacts on Haakonath that forced the Astartes to evacuvate their homeworld and they remain one of only a handful of Chapters who survived a full-scale Hrud migration alone.[9b] A number of Hrud were present on Es'Tau and were encountered by the Last Chancers when they infiltrated the Tau Empire as mercenaries.[2]
During M41, the Cinchare Hrud Infestation led to engagements with the 39th Cadian "Xenobane" regiment of the Imperial Guard on Cinchare.[10a] This conflict saw the Hrud engage the 1st Company of the Dark Hands Chapter.[14] A notable engagement with the Hrud came in 783.M41 during the Infestation of Ursula Spinal where an agri-world became subject to a migration. It quickly became infested with its plantations of hydro-crops turning to dust and its defenders aging fifty years over the span of a few months due to the Hrud's innate entropic fields. To combat the threat, six regiments of Valhallan Ice Warriors make planetfall in order to purge the colony from the infestation. However, a full half of the regiments suffer from premature aging due to contact with the Hrud and are declared unfit for further duty.[8] Between 938-5.M41, Commander Ursarkar E. Creed is known to had fought throughout a Hrud migration.[10b] At some point, Hrud infested the Delphic mines of Mordant Prime leading to the conflict known as the The Plague of Delphic where the 303rd Mordant Acid Dogs engaged the aliens and managed to eliminate them but they suffered heavy losses in the process.[15]
In 0.257.790.M41, a Hrud managed to infest the Emperor Class Battleship Paternus Gloriem where indentured crewman Selebor Mathias managed to knock it unconscious whereupon he was interrogated by the Inquisition with the specimen taken for study.[1a] Farseer Eldrad Ulthran is known to have participated in the prevention of a Hrud infestation of Craftworld Saim-Hann which would have reduced the proud vessel to rotten mulch.[13] The Ordo Xenos Inquisitor Helynna Valeria is known to have treated with Eldar, Ulumeathi, Draxians, Hrud and scores of other xenos species in order to expand humanity's stores of knowledge.[12]
How bout this then: Star wars LEGENDS vs 40k set at the galactic empire era and the 41st millennium respectively?
Common ground needs to be found on what constitutes for canon in 40k as well. To settle Peregrines stance Im calling it D-verse 40k 'canon' since there is no official one. When direct conflicts arrive we can settle them by declaring the true answer to be somewhere in between the two polars.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: How bout this then: Star wars LEGENDS vs 40k set at the galactic empire era and the 41st millennium respectively?
Common ground needs to be found on what constitutes for canon in 40k as well. To settle Peregrines stance Im calling it D-verse 40k 'canon' since there is no official one. When direct conflicts arrive we can settle them by declaring the true answer to be somewhere in between the two polars.
Sure. I am fine with that. But peregrine will use the same argument as ever.
Let me dig up a quote, from the original source instead of a wikipedia article:
While the universe that readers knew is changing, it is not being discarded. Creators of new Star Wars entertainment have full access to the rich content of the Expanded Universe. For example, elements of the EU are included in Star Wars Rebels. The Inquisitor, the Imperial Security Bureau, and Sienar Fleet Systems are story elements in the new animated series, and all these ideas find their origins in roleplaying game material published in the 1980s.
IOW, exactly what I said: Disney considers themselves free to contradict EU material in the new films, but the EU still exists.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DoomShakaLaka wrote: Common ground needs to be found on what constitutes for canon in 40k as well.
Good luck with that. As I said previously, because of all the conflicting sources picking a "canon" for 40k essentially means deciding whether 40k or Star Wars should win the fight and then selecting whichever 40k sources support that position.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: What do you mean the hrud nearly destroyed the galaxy by "leaving too fast"?
What exactly did they do and how did they know it almost destroyed the galaxy?
Here
According to the record-keeping of the Hrud, they were an ancient race that predated the time when Mankind became the masters of space and their tribes have been living a parasitic existence for longer than what was known to humans.[1b] The Imperium of Man first encountered the Hrud as far back as the era of the Great Crusade and during the early era the noisome warrens of these aliens were cleansed by the Emperor according to the Liber Historica Vangelia.[5a] During this time, the Iron Warriors Adeptus Astartes were in the midst of a cleansing of Hrud warrens on Gugann.[9a] After the formation of the Inquisition, it became an institution that became the first to become aware of emergent menaces to the Imperium which they have proven with Necron awakenings, the arrival of the Tyranid hive fleets and the advent of Hrud Migrations along with other similar events.[11] Numerous Hrud infestations are known to had plagued the region of the Maelstrom alongside more than twenty Ork empires and countless human pirate strongholds.[5b] At some point, the Hrud are known to had infested Mortenken's World until they were driven from the holy city by the hands of Daenyathos who was a legendary philosopher soldier of the Soul Drinkers.[19] Around seven hundred and thirty years ago, the Ultramarines battled the Hrud in the Battle of Ortecha IX which saw Battle Brother Olfric perish though he would be avenged by his comrades that ate the heart of his killer.[3]
In 980[23].M35, a major Hrud war against the Imperium took place known as the Hrud Rising.[20] The infestations led to the Dark Angels Chapter being deployed against them but after clearing two of the designated three sectors they withdraw for their own mysterious reasons. [21]
In 101.M40, a Hrud migration forced an Ork Freeboota Klan from the Edge Void to desperately send their forces at the world of Haakonath where they engaged the Star Phantoms Chapter. The Space Marine forces fought against the Ork attackers and eliminated them thus believing that they had achieved a victory in the defence of their homeworld. However, the Hrud threat began to manifest with a vast temporal-warp rift that was surging into the star system from the outer void. At its vanguard came the massive Hrud migration force that were trapped within the rifts event horizon. Despite putting up a valiant defence, the Star Phantoms ended fighting a lost cause as every Hrud-thing that coalesced from the shadows which was struck down was replaced by another dozen misshapen forms that distorted space with their very presence. The presence of the Hrud had notable impacts on Haakonath that forced the Astartes to evacuvate their homeworld and they remain one of only a handful of Chapters who survived a full-scale Hrud migration alone.[9b] A number of Hrud were present on Es'Tau and were encountered by the Last Chancers when they infiltrated the Tau Empire as mercenaries.[2]
During M41, the Cinchare Hrud Infestation led to engagements with the 39th Cadian "Xenobane" regiment of the Imperial Guard on Cinchare.[10a] This conflict saw the Hrud engage the 1st Company of the Dark Hands Chapter.[14] A notable engagement with the Hrud came in 783.M41 during the Infestation of Ursula Spinal where an agri-world became subject to a migration. It quickly became infested with its plantations of hydro-crops turning to dust and its defenders aging fifty years over the span of a few months due to the Hrud's innate entropic fields. To combat the threat, six regiments of Valhallan Ice Warriors make planetfall in order to purge the colony from the infestation. However, a full half of the regiments suffer from premature aging due to contact with the Hrud and are declared unfit for further duty.[8] Between 938-5.M41, Commander Ursarkar E. Creed is known to had fought throughout a Hrud migration.[10b] At some point, Hrud infested the Delphic mines of Mordant Prime leading to the conflict known as the The Plague of Delphic where the 303rd Mordant Acid Dogs engaged the aliens and managed to eliminate them but they suffered heavy losses in the process.[15]
In 0.257.790.M41, a Hrud managed to infest the Emperor Class Battleship Paternus Gloriem where indentured crewman Selebor Mathias managed to knock it unconscious whereupon he was interrogated by the Inquisition with the specimen taken for study.[1a] Farseer Eldrad Ulthran is known to have participated in the prevention of a Hrud infestation of Craftworld Saim-Hann which would have reduced the proud vessel to rotten mulch.[13] The Ordo Xenos Inquisitor Helynna Valeria is known to have treated with Eldar, Ulumeathi, Draxians, Hrud and scores of other xenos species in order to expand humanity's stores of knowledge.[12]
Have fun.
I saw nothing about them nearly destroying the galaxy, although it seems that they are pretty scary. Entropic aging monsters that come in huge swarms is pretty crazy.
I saw nothing about them nearly destroying the galaxy, although it seems that they are pretty scary. Entropic aging monsters that come in huge swarms is pretty crazy.
There is also the Pale Wastings incident where 20 chapters were destroyed except for one chapter (The aurora marines)
ore like individual SM vets have the option to use multilasers if they so choose.
Well why would you trade a bolter for an automatic las rifle?
DoomShakaLaka wrote:What do you mean the hrud nearly destroyed the galaxy by "leaving too fast"?
What exactly did they do and how did they know it almost destroyed the galaxy?
Hrud constantly project an entropic field that puts Nurgle to shame. The more Hrud you have, the stronger the field. The more upset the Hrud are, the stronger the field. Hrud technology is all based around manipulating this field. When the Hrud want to travel FTL, they use their entropy field to fudge the rules and make here decay to the point where it would be there due to galactic drift, or something like that. Basically, they caused massive entropic destabilisation in the heart of a magitek device designed to reset entropy and turn planets backwards in time. The Hrud FTL nearly overloaded the system and, well... made the galaxy rot. The machine broke first - the Hrud entropic field broke the machine before it went critical - but the effects deleted an astrological anomaly millenia old that stretched around the rim of half the galaxy.
Peregrine wrote: According to GW fanfiction has the exact same canon status as a codex or BL novel.
Black Library books are just licensed fanfiction anyway. Kind of like Todd McCaffrey's pern novels.
Why not? Do you have any evidence from GW's official policies for rejecting CS Goto's work, or is this just another case of you setting your canon policy based on what you want the outcome of the debate to be?
DoomShakaLaka wrote:What do you mean the hrud nearly destroyed the galaxy by "leaving too fast"?
What exactly did they do and how did they know it almost destroyed the galaxy?
Hrud constantly project an entropic field that puts Nurgle to shame. The more Hrud you have, the stronger the field. The more upset the Hrud are, the stronger the field. Hrud technology is all based around manipulating this field. When the Hrud want to travel FTL, they use their entropy field to fudge the rules and make here decay to the point where it would be there due to galactic drift, or something like that. Basically, they caused massive entropic destabilisation in the heart of a magitek device designed to reset entropy and turn planets backwards in time. The Hrud FTL nearly overloaded the system and, well... made the galaxy rot. The machine broke first - the Hrud entropic field broke the machine before it went critical - but the effects deleted an astrological anomaly millenia old that stretched around the rim of half the galaxy.
Peregrine wrote: According to GW fanfiction has the exact same canon status as a codex or BL novel.
Black Library books are just licensed fanfiction anyway. Kind of like Todd McCaffrey's pern novels.
I usually dismiss the black library as fanfiction anyway. Except for the collected visions which was written by the Original IP holders of 40k. Who wrote the original works.
Also on the Hrud they aren't ones to be messed with.
I saw nothing about them nearly destroying the galaxy, although it seems that they are pretty scary. Entropic aging monsters that come in huge swarms is pretty crazy.
There is also the Pale Wastings incident where 20 chapters were destroyed except for one chapter (The aurora marines)
ore like individual SM vets have the option to use multilasers if they so choose.
Well why would you trade a bolter for an automatic las rifle?
I keep reading about these incidents where a crazy amount of space Marines have died to the enemy they were fighting and it always makes me wonder: How are these guys still around?
Anyways I guess the veteran got tired of bolter recoil or something.
I saw nothing about them nearly destroying the galaxy, although it seems that they are pretty scary. Entropic aging monsters that come in huge swarms is pretty crazy.
There is also the Pale Wastings incident where 20 chapters were destroyed except for one chapter (The aurora marines)
ore like individual SM vets have the option to use multilasers if they so choose.
Well why would you trade a bolter for an automatic las rifle?
I keep reading about these incidents where a crazy amount of space Marines have died to the enemy they were fighting and it always makes me wonder: How are these guys still around?
Anyways I guess the veteran got tired of bolter recoil or something.
Well those events are far between over thousands of years. They are usually against threats that are pretty huge and need the attention of super humans. Most space marine chapters are well above 1000 and they typically are needing more troops for various actions such as maintance neyphotes, and various other staff. So usually what happens is that when a chapter is 'wiped out' its remnants are sent to build a new chapter. Astartes are fairly easy to create in the imperium if the highlords of terra know that a certain chapter was destroyed. Investing in a chapter is well worth it
Why not? Do you have any evidence from GW's official policies for rejecting CS Goto's work, or is this just another case of you setting your canon policy based on what you want the outcome of the debate to be?
Because they have been rewritten from another author with the same characters and stories. Meaning he is no longer part of canon that has been agreed upon!
Asherian Command wrote: Because they have been rewritten from another author with the same characters and stories. Meaning he is no longer part of canon that has been agreed upon!
{citation needed}
Could you provide some evidence from GW that new versions of characters/stories replace older ones? Or is this just another case of you inventing your own canon policies and pretending that they have official support from GW?
Asherian Command wrote: Because they have been rewritten from another author with the same characters and stories. Meaning he is no longer part of canon that has been agreed upon!
{citation needed}
Could you provide some evidence from GW that new versions of characters/stories replace older ones? Or is this just another case of you inventing your own canon policies and pretending that they have official support from GW?
What if two quotes contradict eachother?
Such as Alpharius once being the tallest Primarch, to now being the shortest?
In these situations, it is sensible to follow the most recent source of canon, adhering closer to that, but, for example, in the case of Necrons, you could still use OldCron fluff, as long as facets of your dudes' fluff fitted certain guidelines. Here, logic and sensibility prevail. Unless you are just trying to be obtuse for no reason other than to sate a personal bias.
Also, if I were to write a fanfiction outlining how the 40k universe destroys and conquers the SW universe, perhaps using only my personal AM regiment, would that not be canon, since you accept fanfiction as valid 40k canon as GW don't have a stance? If so, that would settle this argument.
I can write a 40k fanfiction (of varying quality, but it couldn't be worse than Goto, eh? ) which is treated as canon, using your logic, which wins this argument according to my whim. SW fanfiction, due to a rigid canon code, does not have this quality.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: What if two quotes contradict eachother?
Such as Alpharius once being the tallest Primarch, to now being the shortest?
Then you have to either pick one source and discard the other or find some way of resolving the contradiction ("Alpharius is short is an insulting lie spread by his enemies"). My point is that there is no official answer to the problem and it comes down to personal preference: do you want Alpharius to be short or tall? You can answer that question for yourself, but you can't answer it for everyone else.
In these situations, it is sensible to follow the most recent source of canon
Why? You could just as easily argue that the original source is canon and the newer source is a case of a marginally-talented author not bothering to pay attention to canon details of the setting they're working with. For example, if CS Goto wrote another volume in his multilaser obsession and had space marines with multilasers fighting against Tyranids with mutilasers would you really believe that the most recent source is canon? Or would you say "this is stupid" and throw it out, despite it being newer than the previous sources where those armies don't have multilasers?
Also, if I were to write a fanfiction outlining how the 40k universe destroys and conquers the SW universe, perhaps using only my personal AM regiment, would that not be canon, since you accept fanfiction as valid 40k canon as GW don't have a stance?
You're missing the point of the fanfiction argument. I never said that fanfiction is canon, I said that it's just as canon as anything else in 40k. That is, it exists, but has never been given any canon or non-canon status from GW.
If so, that would settle this argument.
No, because it just goes back to the original point I made many pages ago: that answering the "who wins" question requires figuring out which version of 40k to use. We could certainly settle the argument that Sgt_Smudge-40k crushes Star Wars, but that says nothing about 40k in general.
No, because it just goes back to the original point I made many pages ago: that answering the "who wins" question requires figuring out which version of 40k to use. We could certainly settle the argument that Sgt_Smudge-40k crushes Star Wars, but that says nothing about 40k in general.
Which is EXACTLY my point, which I believe I mentioned.
Instead of going over and debating all the myriad interpretations of both universes, we want someone, preferably someone with no bias or the OP of this thread to dictate what is, and what is not, canon for both universes and canon clashes, such as Alpharius' height, or if a Jedi could survive a bolter round. We need to be given a single, universal canon purely for the sake of this argument and leave everything else out, but this would be in no way definitive, as everyone has their own thoughs on the various universe power levels.
It sucks that this is the case, but hey, it sucks.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Instead of going over and debating all the myriad interpretations of both universes, we want someone, preferably someone with no bias or the OP of this thread to dictate what is, and what is not, canon for both universes and canon clashes, such as Alpharius' height, or if a Jedi could survive a bolter round. We need to be given a single, universal canon purely for the sake of this argument and leave everything else out, but this would be in no way definitive, as everyone has their own thoughs on the various universe power levels.
And this is never going to happen, because there is no unbiased authority to provide it. And even if you could find one the scope of the project is probably way beyond anyone's ability to handle.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Instead of going over and debating all the myriad interpretations of both universes, we want someone, preferably someone with no bias or the OP of this thread to dictate what is, and what is not, canon for both universes and canon clashes, such as Alpharius' height, or if a Jedi could survive a bolter round. We need to be given a single, universal canon purely for the sake of this argument and leave everything else out, but this would be in no way definitive, as everyone has their own thoughs on the various universe power levels.
And this is never going to happen, because there is no unbiased authority to provide it. And even if you could find one the scope of the project is probably way beyond anyone's ability to handle.
As far as the people saying that ligjtsabers not being able to block solid projectiles. In Jedi power battles the playstation game the tusken raiders used "bullet" type snipers that could be blocked but not projected back at the enemy. Probably not canon, but its something. Plus its the only game I know of where you can unlock a minigame that involves electrocuting Jar Jar better than your opponent in order to score points.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: As far as the people saying that ligjtsabers not being able to block solid projectiles. In Jedi power battles the playstation game the tusken raiders used "bullet" type snipers that could be blocked but not projected back at the enemy. Probably not canon, but its something. Plus its the only game I know of where you can unlock a minigame that involves electrocuting Jar Jar better than your opponent in order to score points.
Classic
Well they could block it, but unless it also is accompanied with a shield the shrapnel will not be blocked, that will go straight into the jedi, and the sharpnel will just tear apart the jedi's body and the explosion from the bolter round would shatter his arms with the amount of force that would travel through the lightsaber. As much as jedi are that strong I don't think kinetic force would agree with them.
Bolts aren't the problem they are the problem when there are six of them being shot at the same time. You can block easily but still remember the shards and other bullets accompanying them..
Bobthehero wrote: Bolts don't explode that hard, either, except when they're in you
Its not the explosion its the kinetic force behind something the size of a 45' caliber weapon hitting you at super sonic. That would probably be enough to break a few bones just by the sheer force.
Bobthehero wrote: Bolts don't explode that hard, either, except when they're in you
Depends on the caliber. The idea that all bolters are .75 caliber has been demonstrated false again and again, and heavier calibers can inflict serious damage even without internal explosion.
Has it? AFAIK, the godwin pattern bolter is .75 and most heavy bolters are 1.0? Or did I miss some fluff. But at that point, I don't think it really matters though, if its .75 or 2.5, it's still dead jedi.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And even at .75, it's still a small grenade going off less than a foot away, if you're not dead, you're seriously hurt.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Has it? AFAIK, the godwin pattern bolter is .75 and most heavy bolters are 1.0? Or did I miss some fluff. But at that point, I don't think it really matters though, if its .75 or 2.5, it's still dead jedi.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And even at .75, it's still a small grenade going off less than a foot away, if you're not dead, you're seriously hurt.
Its been debated for a long time. But most of the wiki's I have gone through point to it being a standard .75 caliber bolt. I think it is around .55 to .65 but eh details. Sharpnel from anything is usually lethal or extremely disabilitating. It is better to try and get behind cover than actual just charge out with a close combat weapon.
It is similar to how the british were able to defeat the french. The french being great horsemen could deal with a single archer, but a whole line of archers was basically suicide. Hence why the british beat the french so much in terms of warefare until platemail was invented. (Then the crossbow came and made knights obsolete)
This would be a similar situation, yes jedi are close ccombat specialists but an astartes and guardsmen would know anyone charging at you with a close combat weapon is close to dead. Hence why when berserkers of khorne are charging there around 10-30 of them all charging plus the aid of having power armor is quite helpful as well. Anyone engaging in close combat against a ranged opponent are just committing suicide.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Has it? AFAIK, the godwin pattern bolter is .75 and most heavy bolters are 1.0? Or did I miss some fluff. But at that point, I don't think it really matters though, if its .75 or 2.5, it's still dead jedi.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And even at .75, it's still a small grenade going off less than a foot away, if you're not dead, you're seriously hurt.
.75 is a common one, but early Great Crusade had lower calibers (.60 for bolters and .75 for HBs) and there's plenty of material suggesting later Astartes bolters (Phobos pattern for instance, and quite possibly Godwyn as well - though that pattern tends to be contradiction-heavy) fire significantly bigger bolts.
Nice. However you forget that Jedi are not 'supposed' to be front line soldiers. They are best used as spec-ops teams, generals, etc.
Jedi are extremely good at defeating foes ranging from 1-10 enemies at once and being successful, but they can be overwhelmed by far superior numbers and walls of blaster fire.
You have to wonder about the other weapons though. Can plasma be blocked in the same way as blaster? I personally doubt it. And what about melta and flamers? Or even more exotic weapons, such as necron or eldar/DE weapons?
DoomShakaLaka wrote: As far as the people saying that ligjtsabers not being able to block solid projectiles. In Jedi power battles the playstation game the tusken raiders used "bullet" type snipers that could be blocked but not projected back at the enemy. Probably not canon, but its something. Plus its the only game I know of where you can unlock a minigame that involves electrocuting Jar Jar better than your opponent in order to score points.
Classic
Game mechanics are not canon, ever. Also, basic logic dictates that the electromagnetically jacketed blade of plasma is not going to deflect solid projectiles, and I do not know what flawed line of logic could ever be drawn to come to such a conclusion. It would vaporize either the entire/part of the projectile depending on its mass. But as stated previously you'd still have an extremely hot vapor cloud giving you third degree burns and melting your clothes. The only way to block solid projectiles is for them to erect a force barrier.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Co'tor Shas wrote: Has it? AFAIK, the godwin pattern bolter is .75 and most heavy bolters are 1.0? Or did I miss some fluff. But at that point, I don't think it really matters though, if its .75 or 2.5, it's still dead jedi.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And even at .75, it's still a small grenade going off less than a foot away, if you're not dead, you're seriously hurt.
Also, the round may be wider than the blade itself, meaning there's still shrapnel (which you superheated with your lightsaber) screaming at you at supersonic speeds and is now tumbling. Not only would a lightsaber probably detonate a bolt, but attempting to "block" it will only ensure you death. And probably the people behind you with anything overpenetrates.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Co'tor Shas wrote: You have to wonder about the other weapons though. Can plasma be blocked in the same way as blaster? I personally doubt it. And what about melta and flamers? Or even more exotic weapons, such as necron or eldar/DE weapons?
True but they are different type of plasma apparently as plasma in 40k explodes. Where in starwars they are just energy.
Spoiler:
Wut.
Plasma neither is exclusively explosive in Warhammer, nor do blasters always overpenetrate.
Upon impact tremendous energy is released akin to a small sun, destroying the target through searing heat and explosive shock in an almighty explosion.[1][2a]
True but they are different type of plasma apparently as plasma in 40k explodes. Where in starwars they are just energy.
Blasters are more like tau plasma, its slightly weaker, safer, and less extreme.
Not even, tau plasma is still very destructive, melting holes in people, with the damage to unarmored targets similar to the damage plasma weapons do, just smaller. You get hit in the arm with tau plasma, and you are losing an arm.
True but they are different type of plasma apparently as plasma in 40k explodes. Where in starwars they are just energy.
Blasters are more like tau plasma, its slightly weaker, safer, and less extreme.
Not even, tau plasma is still very destructive, melting holes in people, with the damage to unarmored targets similar to the damage plasma weapons do, just smaller. You get hit in the arm with tau plasma, and you are losing an arm.
A higher powered blaster isn't much different than that...
True but they are different type of plasma apparently as plasma in 40k explodes. Where in starwars they are just energy.
Blasters are more like tau plasma, its slightly weaker, safer, and less extreme.
Not even, tau plasma is still very destructive, melting holes in people, with the damage to unarmored targets similar to the damage plasma weapons do, just smaller. You get hit in the arm with tau plasma, and you are losing an arm.
A higher powered blaster isn't much different than that...
Maybe in how the damage is dealt but, unless blasters got a lot more powerful when I turned my back, they would be about the damage of a lasgun, maybe a bit more. Less than a bolter, certainly, and much less than pulse weaponry.
raiden wrote: Not to mention the thousands of assassin droids they could build..
Assassins require the ability to stealthily infiltrate the target location. Assassin droids can do this because droids are common and mundane in Star Wars. Such a machine would however be found out immediately by any 40k faction however.
We have evidence of Jedi not only reflecting blaster shots, (which move about as fast as a fired projectile }
But also being able to deflect them so as they hit the firer.
Sure, but they have also been demonstrated to not be able to deflect solid matter as easily. And much of 40k still uses solid projectile weaponry. Jedi also are pretty limited in how much they can deflect.
We also have evidence that Jedi can fight in the air/falling.
Light sabers can basically absorb electricity and or "magic"
So? this is useless when the electricity just goes around your blade. Or you just have your brain boiled from the inside.
We also have proof of Jedi being able to sense danger from another room, with something as small as a large centipede.
Unimpressive. A psyker with precognition would have known the bugs were coming and intercepted the droid or assassin before they got there. By the time Anakin sensed the danger it would normally have been far too late.
I think Star Wars blasters are a lot more powerful than people.give them credit.
Acvording to wookiepedia (with the primary sources being some very old books), it's almost impossible to penetrate stormtrooper armor with slugthrowers (Star Wars projectile weapons), while it offers way less protection against blaster bolts.
This means that, in Star Wars, blasters are likely significantly more powerful than projectile weapons. Depending on how Star Wars projectile weapons compare to 40k projectile weapons, this might mean blasters are also significantly more powerful than lasguns (since lasguns are roughly equivalent in power to autoguns).
LordBlades wrote: I think Star Wars blasters are a lot more powerful than people.give them credit.
Acvording to wookiepedia (with the primary sources being some very old books), it's almost impossible to penetrate stormtrooper armor with slugthrowers (Star Wars projectile weapons), while it offers way less protection against blaster bolts.
This means that, in Star Wars, blasters are likely significantly more powerful than projectile weapons. Depending on how Star Wars projectile weapons compare to 40k projectile weapons, this might mean blasters are also significantly more powerful than lasguns (since lasguns are roughly equivalent in power to autoguns).
Well most weapons in 40k are developed to rip to shreds targets, a concentrated lasgun is pretty deadly, as it has been stated that the armor both the imperial guard wear and the storm troopers wear are pretty similar. They are both well trained, except the guardsmen have tanks and artillery while the Storm troopers lack that in spades.
True but they are different type of plasma apparently as plasma in 40k explodes. Where in starwars they are just energy.
Blasters are more like tau plasma, its slightly weaker, safer, and less extreme.
Not even, tau plasma is still very destructive, melting holes in people, with the damage to unarmored targets similar to the damage plasma weapons do, just smaller. You get hit in the arm with tau plasma, and you are losing an arm.
A higher powered blaster isn't much different than that...
Maybe in how the damage is dealt but, unless blasters got a lot more powerful when I turned my back, they would be about the damage of a lasgun, maybe a bit more. Less than a bolter, certainly, and much less than pulse weaponry.
Just from the movies, blaster firepower can range anywhere from 7.62 NATO equivalent to double digit megajoules depending on how you calc it.
True but they are different type of plasma apparently as plasma in 40k explodes. Where in starwars they are just energy.
Blasters are more like tau plasma, its slightly weaker, safer, and less extreme.
Not even, tau plasma is still very destructive, melting holes in people, with the damage to unarmored targets similar to the damage plasma weapons do, just smaller. You get hit in the arm with tau plasma, and you are losing an arm.
A higher powered blaster isn't much different than that...
Maybe in how the damage is dealt but, unless blasters got a lot more powerful when I turned my back, they would be about the damage of a lasgun, maybe a bit more. Less than a bolter, certainly, and much less than pulse weaponry.
Just from the movies, blaster firepower can range anywhere from 7.62 NATO equivalent to double digit megajoules depending on how you calc it.
So....? Lasguns are actually quite strong you know, the only reason they are referred to as weak is that there are so many more deadly things out there.
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LordBlades wrote: I think Star Wars blasters are a lot more powerful than people.give them credit.
Acvording to wookiepedia (with the primary sources being some very old books), it's almost impossible to penetrate stormtrooper armor with slugthrowers (Star Wars projectile weapons), while it offers way less protection against blaster bolts.
This means that, in Star Wars, blasters are likely significantly more powerful than projectile weapons. Depending on how Star Wars projectile weapons compare to 40k projectile weapons, this might mean blasters are also significantly more powerful than lasguns (since lasguns are roughly equivalent in power to autoguns).
But I think we can safely deduce that they are less powerful than bolters, so it puts them in the more powerful than a lasgun, less powerful than a bolter range. Not sure about there penetrating power though, as we don't really know how good imperial storm trooper armour is compared to carapace armour, tau combat armour, ect. Probably better than flak armour, for the fact that it's full cover if nothing else.
raiden wrote: I'd rate storm trooper armor at 4+ like the more elite of the imperium.
If forced to put into TT stats...
Jedi- ws7, BS 5, str4, T4, W3, A4, I7 sv6+ LD 9
Ofc their lightsaber is ap2 fleshbane/armor bane
4++
3++ in close combat.
Master Jedi- WS 9 BS 5, str4, T4-5, W4, A6, I8, sv6+ LD10
3++ rerolling in close combat.
Unfortunately, there are very very few true Jedi Master..
For storm.troopers...
WS3, BS4 S3 T3 W1 A2 I3 sv4+ ld8
Imperial army trooper-
WS2 BS2 S3 T3 W1 A1 I3 sv5+ LD7 (8 for vet Sgts )
I get strength 4, but toughness 4? How does having a aptitude with the force make them as tough as armoured space marines and battlesuits? And BS 4 for storm troopers? BS3 is the trained human norm.
raiden wrote: I'd rate storm trooper armor at 4+ like the more elite of the imperium.
If forced to put into TT stats...
Jedi- ws7, BS 5, str4, T4, W3, A4, I7 sv6+ LD 9
Ofc their lightsaber is ap2 fleshbane/armor bane
4++
3++ in close combat.
Master Jedi- WS 9 BS 5, str4, T4-5, W4, A6, I8, sv6+ LD10
3++ rerolling in close combat.
Unfortunately, there are very very few true Jedi Master..
For storm.troopers...
WS3, BS4 S3 T3 W1 A2 I3 sv4+ ld8
Imperial army trooper-
WS2 BS2 S3 T3 W1 A1 I3 sv5+ LD7 (8 for vet Sgts )
I get strength 4, but toughness 4? How does having a aptitude with the force make them as tough as armoured space marines and battlesuits? And BS 4 for storm troopers? BS3 is the trained human norm.
raiden wrote: I'd rate storm trooper armor at 4+ like the more elite of the imperium.
If forced to put into TT stats...
Jedi- ws7, BS 5, str4, T4, W3, A4, I7 sv6+ LD 9
Ofc their lightsaber is ap2 fleshbane/armor bane
4++
3++ in close combat.
Master Jedi- WS 9 BS 5, str4, T4-5, W4, A6, I8, sv6+ LD10
3++ rerolling in close combat.
Unfortunately, there are very very few true Jedi Master..
For storm.troopers...
WS3, BS4 S3 T3 W1 A2 I3 sv4+ ld8
Imperial army trooper-
WS2 BS2 S3 T3 W1 A1 I3 sv5+ LD7 (8 for vet Sgts )
I get strength 4, but toughness 4? How does having a aptitude with the force make them as tough as armoured space marines and battlesuits? And BS 4 for storm troopers? BS3 is the trained human norm.
Maybe I'm looking too far into this
Jedi take some pretty nasty bumps, their power over the force enhances all aspects of their phsycial prowess, or so it would seem.
Veterans/stormtroopers (AM)/are the elite of the imperium, they are BS4
Stormtroopers (SW) are the elite of the empire, ergo BS4, at least.
Imperial army troopers (very equivalent to regular guardsman) are BS3
raiden wrote: I'd rate storm trooper armor at 4+ like the more elite of the imperium.
If forced to put into TT stats...
Jedi- ws7, BS 5, str4, T4, W3, A4, I7 sv6+ LD 9
Ofc their lightsaber is ap2 fleshbane/armor bane
4++
3++ in close combat.
Master Jedi- WS 9 BS 5, str4, T4-5, W4, A6, I8, sv6+ LD10
3++ rerolling in close combat.
Unfortunately, there are very very few true Jedi Master..
For storm.troopers...
WS3, BS4 S3 T3 W1 A2 I3 sv4+ ld8
Imperial army trooper-
WS2 BS2 S3 T3 W1 A1 I3 sv5+ LD7 (8 for vet Sgts )
I get strength 4, but toughness 4? How does having a aptitude with the force make them as tough as armoured space marines and battlesuits? And BS 4 for storm troopers? BS3 is the trained human norm.
Maybe I'm looking too far into this
To me it's BS2.
They just made their cover/plot armor saves. Nothing to do with shooting ability
Good stats, except the lightsaber save. If it were true to the films It'd be more like 2++ on D100 for even a novice jedi. A master would be more like 2++ on D1000. Somewhat "unfun" for a tabletop game I know!
Furyou Miko wrote: Black Library books are just licensed fanfiction anyway. Kind of like Todd McCaffrey's pern novels.
Do you have any backup for this at all?
Black Library is a division of Games Workshop.
This is at the bottom of their website.
Yes. The Black Library tag means its licensed. The fact it was written by people other than the original author of the setting makes it fanfiction, especially given that all black library authors are fans of the setting.
This isn't a value debate. It's a linguistic one. The Black Library publish fiction written by fans of the setting. It is fan fiction.
Sometimes, they even edit it for cohesion with the rest of the published works.
The closest thing Black Library has to an "official author" is C.Z. Dunn, and that's because he happens to be on GW's bankroll as something other than a writer.
Furyou Miko wrote: Black Library books are just licensed fanfiction anyway. Kind of like Todd McCaffrey's pern novels.
Do you have any backup for this at all?
Black Library is a division of Games Workshop.
This is at the bottom of their website.
Yes. The Black Library tag means its licensed. The fact it was written by people other than the original author of the setting makes it fanfiction, especially given that all black library authors are fans of the setting.
This isn't a value debate. It's a linguistic one. The Black Library publish fiction written by fans of the setting. It is fan fiction.
Sometimes, they even edit it for cohesion with the rest of the published works.
The closest thing Black Library has to an "official author" is C.Z. Dunn, and that's because he happens to be on GW's bankroll as something other than a writer.
Its not a linguistic fight, we are not talking about things are pronounced or where their language comes from.
This a debate between 40k and starwars.
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raiden wrote: I'd rate storm trooper armor at 4+ like the more elite of the imperium.
If forced to put into TT stats...
Jedi- ws7, BS 5, str4, T4, W3, A4, I7 sv6+ LD 9
Ofc their lightsaber is ap2 fleshbane/armor bane
4++
3++ in close combat.
(No +6)
Master Jedi- WS 9 BS 5, str4, T4-5, W4, A6, I8, sv6+ LD10
3++ rerolling in close combat. (++3? Okay that is ridicilious no.
+5)
Unfortunately, there are very very few true Jedi Master..
For storm.troopers...
WS3, BS4 S3 T3 W1 A2 I3 sv4+ ld8
Imperial army trooper-
WS2 BS2 S3 T3 W1 A1 I3 sv5+ LD7 (8 for vet Sgts )
Umm ws9 is impossible for a mortal being.
Also
It would mean their weapon skill is greater than a being that is over several thousand years old. WS of 9 is pretty fething high.
A4? No. A2 for a normal jedi Ballistic skill is skill with a rifle or long range. Most jedi do not use guns. How the helk would they be better than men who have trained for years in combat service?
Toughness 4 means that they have a hardened shell around them. No that doesn't mean that at all. T3, they are not super humans with higher bone density and exoskeletons.
Good stats, except the lightsaber save. If it were true to the films It'd be more like 2++ on D100 for even a novice jedi. A master would be more like 2++ on D1000. Somewhat "unfun" for a tabletop game I know!
What. a ++2 save? so a Harliquen and an Autarch of the Eldar are worse than a jedi master? umm. No.
The Chosen One- Darth Vader may re-roll any failed attempts to manifest powers during the Psychic phase. In addition 'remove from play' abilites instead causes one ap2 wound. Look out Sirs cannot be taken for these wounds. In addition rules that lower leadership or treat leadership as lower do not affect Darth Vader.
Lightsabers are s- user, ap1, armorbane, melta, and fleshbane a a 4+ save to those equipped with them or allow rerolls of failed invulnerable saves if they already had one.
-"Toughness" - T3 base. FnP 5+ when focusing on it.
-Lightsaber - 4++ parry (invuln), with Precog up its rerollable. Masters have a 3++ instead.
-WS - Superhuman. 5 for Jedi, 6 for Jedi Masters.
They're basically Farseers with access to a wider variety of much weaker powers. But in a universe where having said powers are rare.
(Fully cybernetic'ed up Sith would be Librarian a equivalents.)
-"Toughness" - T3 base. FnP 5+ when focusing on it. -Lightsaber - 4++ parry (invuln), with Precog up its rerollable. Masters have a 3++ instead. -WS - Superhuman. 5 for Jedi, 6 for Jedi Masters.
They're basically Farseers with access to a wider variety of much weaker powers. But in a universe where having said powers are rare.
(Fully cybernetic'ed up Sith would be Librarian a equivalents.)
Their invulnerability saves are better than normal shields. You are comparing another game mechanic with another.
ugh So a galaxy far in the future where armor is a must for anyone someone a guy in a robe has a better chance of survival than a soldier or an Assassin?
Yep totally believable.
Or helk how they are just as good as Farseers. You know that is not fanboyism right there
I highly doubt that Jedi can conjure up storms and grip their hands through the warp and kill people with just a thought. Or predict the future to such a degree that they are always correct, and then being able to change it.
not even yoda or Luke Skywalker could do that. They are not precogs.
Good stats, except the lightsaber save. If it were true to the films It'd be more like 2++ on D100 for even a novice jedi. A master would be more like 2++ on D1000. Somewhat "unfun" for a tabletop game I know!
What. a ++2 save? so a Harliquen and an Autarch of the Eldar are worse than a jedi master? umm. No.
As I said "if it were true to their abilities as depicted in the films." I'm not suggesting a 2+ on a 100 sided dice would be practical for application in 40k, just that that is a more accurate representation of their abilities. They don't deflect 50% of incoming shots ( which woud constitute a 4+ save), its more like 99.5%. and that's just the regular Jedi. So ummmm. Yes!
The only time I've seen them die to blaster blaster fire is
a) when they have so many shots coming at them at once that it's impossible to block
b) when they're unaware of the danger, or otherwise distracted, which is a rare thing.
They are however vulnerable to explosive munitions, and waves of energy like the Geonisians sonic guns seen in episode 2,
In summary they should have an amazing base save and a worse invulnerable, the represent them being able to deflect massed small arms fire.
We have rules in game for just what precognition does.
What's so wrong about that?
Honestly, they just don't feel so alien to 40k.
They aren't precogs though. They can't predict the future they may have prophecies but never ever is it sshown that jedi can see into the far future, and predict events to such a degree that it parrells what will happen. They have visions yes but they are hazy and filled with smoke it is not to the degree of an Alien race that has been doing it for centuries.
As I said "if it were true to their abilities as depicted in the films." I'm not suggesting a 2+ on a 100 sided dice would be practical for application in 40k, just that that is a more accurate representation of their abilities. They don't deflect 50% of incoming shots ( which woud constitute a 4+ save), its more like 99.5%. and that's just the regular Jedi. So ummmm. Yes!
The only time I've seen them die to blaster blaster fire is a) when they have so many shots coming at them at once that it's impossible to block b) when they're unaware of the danger, or otherwise distracted, which is a rare thing. They are however vulnerable to explosive munitions, and waves of energy like the Geonisians sonic guns seen in episode 2,
In summary they should have an amazing base save and a worse invulnerable, the represent them being able to deflect massed small arms fire.
You are talking about their heroes right? Because yes their heroes and maincharacters always will do better than their expendable red shirt it is a writing trope.
Regular jedi?
You mean these jedi:
Or these jedi?
Notice how easily they are defeated? Notice how the master in the first one was able to not handle his own against a robotic foe? And how that even a master struggles against a foe that is more trained and better in combat. They were defeated in the first one. That was a full on retreat against the droids and super droids. The Imperium has had that happened once and that was 10k years ago. Called the drop site massacre.
SO yes I do find it dumb that you all believe that somehow beings that have lived for thousands of years are worse than beings that have studied for less than 10!
Harliquens and Autarchs are beings that have studied for centuries and have been in war after war. That is another thing. 40k is constantly at war. While Star wars is not. The Astartes, Eldar, every race of 40k has more combat experiencce and war experience than the jedi could ever hope to have. If a bunch of veterans from various wars fought together against all people who rarely seen any type of war what do you think would happen? The veterans would win by a large margin. As seen during the Roman times when Caesar brought his army over and all of his troops having constantly fought in battles fighting against the Prateor guard who had rarely fought any battle.
Re-read my post Asherian, particularly point (b). Your second video depicts an exact example of what I discussed there...
Grevous has had Jedi training (from Dooku I believe) -those knights are up against another force wielding individual -so that fight says as much for Jedi abilities as it does against them. Grevous was the better combatant, whether from raw skill, additional cybernetics or having 6 arms I do not know...
In any case -you found a few videos in which Jedi are shown to be underwhelming. Here's an even worse one that I laugh at from time to time! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MTvtKptWRw I've seen glaciers move faster than those 3 jedi masters! Now if you If you were to formulate the stats of Jedi from this scene, they'd be absolutely pathetic .But one badly choreographed fight scene is hardly a decisive thing is it? I could likewise post videos of Jedi smashing their way through hundreds of droids, stormtroopers and Geonosians. Or some very underwhelming depictions of space marines (the Dawn of War 2 intro where a pair of terminators die like chumps, or the entire Ultramarines film are 2 examples that spring to mind). My point being: you should take the measure of the abilities of Jedi, space marines and everything else in sci-fi from what is consistently depicted across all media in which they feature, not from one or 2 overly good or bad examples. You know what I mean?
Grevous has had Jedi training (from Dooku I believe) -those knights are up against another force wielding individual -so that fight says as much for Jedi abilities as it does against them. Grevous was the better combatant, whether from raw skill, additional cybernetics or having 6 arms I do not know...
In any case -you found a few videos in which Jedi are shown to be underwhelming. Here's an even worse one that I laugh at from time to time! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MTvtKptWRw I've seen glaciers move faster than those 3 jedi masters! Now if you If you were to formulate the stats of Jedi from this scene, they'd be absolutely pathetic .But one badly choreographed fight scene is hardly a decisive thing is it? I could likewise post videos of Jedi smashing their way through hundreds of droids, stormtroopers and Geonosians. Or some very underwhelming depictions of space marines (the Dawn of War 2 intro where a pair of terminators die like chumps, or the entire Ultramarines film are 2 examples that spring to mind). My point being: you should take the measure of the abilities of Jedi, space marines and everything else in sci-fi from what is consistently depicted across all media in which they feature, not from one or 2 overly good or bad examples. You know what I mean?
Grevious wasn't a force user though. He never used the force. Ever.
I am pointing out that you are giving the stats of super humans to beings that are not super humans. They may wield the force but that doesn't mean they would be greater in power or in strength. It may aid them but it doesn't mean their stats are increased by ten fold it is increased from normal but compared to an Astartes or an Eldar that is nothing.
They maybe great warriors but they are not stronger than a being that is constructed for war. Jedi are trained but their training does not circumvent any who are super humans. AS normal beings in the starwars universe have been shown to kill jedi. (IE Jango Fett and Boba Fett) JEdi are not greater than individuals who have fought for years and have seen war and are genetically modified and given armor that is heat resistant. and blast resistant.
A laughably small force, with the element of surprise, killed he majority of the Jedi in the entire galaxy, almost simultaneously.
If other Imperial forces could force the few remaining Jedi into hiding, and said Imperial forces are so laughably outmatched by a fraction of the IoM, then how could Jedi threaten the IoM substantially?
A laughably small force, with the element of surprise, killed he majority of the Jedi in the entire galaxy, almost simultaneously.
If other Imperial forces could force the few remaining Jedi into hiding, and said Imperial forces are so laughably outmatched by a fraction of the IoM, then how could Jedi threaten the IoM substantially?
WEll not with the stats you guys gave them XD
Those are stats of Harliquens who have been living for centuries and are so deadly they make Assassins of the Imperium look laughably bad.
There are at least some places in the Star Wars EU where the Jedi combat training is suggested to be ridiculously effective. There's one instance I recall, in the Clone Wars novel 'The Cestus Deception', Obi Wan shows a Clone Trooper the very basics of Jedi training. The result is that, later on in the story, this Clone Trooper has little issue overwhelming his bretheren in hand-ti-hand combat.
So you have a bunch of super elite troopers, born and bred to fight, trained from birth in a programme designed by one of the most lethal fighters in the galaxy and a Jedi teaching one of them some moves is enough to drastically improve his skills.
In the end, I think Jedi abilities in the fluff vary about as much as marine abilities.
Grevious wasn't a force user though. He never used the force. Ever.
I often wondered about that,. Just looked it up and seems you're correct on that count.
Asherian Command wrote: I am pointing out that you are giving the stats of super humans to beings that are not super humans. They may wield the force but that doesn't mean they would be greater in power or in strength. It may aid them but it doesn't mean their stats are increased by ten fold it is increased from normal but compared to an Astartes.
We're not in disagreement on that: The only stat I was advocating was that their save should be far better than 4+ (vs small arms shoots anyway) as they certainly deflect a hell of a lot more than 50% of what's fired at them. Though now that you mention it, I believe a high WS and Initiative would be appropriate too.
Asherian Command wrote: As normal beings in the starwars universe have been shown to kill jedi. (IE Jango Fett and Boba Fett) JEdi are not greater than individuals who have fought for years and have seen war and are genetically modified and given armor that is heat resistant. and blast resistant.
There are excpeptional individuals who could go toe to toe with a Jedi but they're far and few between. As you'll probably agree Jango and Boba aren't average veteran soldiers, in fact they're (arguably)the best non-Jedi human warriors of their times.
Grevious wasn't a force user though. He never used the force. Ever.
I often wondered about that,. Just looked it up and seems you're correct on that count.
Asherian Command wrote: I am pointing out that you are giving the stats of super humans to beings that are not super humans. They may wield the force but that doesn't mean they would be greater in power or in strength. It may aid them but it doesn't mean their stats are increased by ten fold it is increased from normal but compared to an Astartes.
We're not in disagreement on that: The only stat I was advocating was that their save should be far better than 4+ (vs small arms shoots anyway) as they certainly deflect a hell of a lot more than 50% of what's fired at them. Though now that you mention it, I believe a high WS and Initiative would be appropriate too.
Asherian Command wrote: As normal beings in the starwars universe have been shown to kill jedi. (IE Jango Fett and Boba Fett) JEdi are not greater than individuals who have fought for years and have seen war and are genetically modified and given armor that is heat resistant. and blast resistant.
There are excpeptional individuals who could go toe to toe with a Jedi but they're far and few between. As you'll probably agree Jango and Boba aren't average veteran soldiers, in fact they're (arguably)the best non-Jedi human warriors of their times.
But WS 9 and Ws7?
thats a bit extreme.
Ws5 and WS6 Maybe. But WS9? Thats asinine.
It depends on how you look at it: I'd personally say WS5 and WS6 is a little underwhelming. An assassin has 8 and as both they and experienced Jedi Knight have a lifetime of devotion to blade training, then I wouldn't think 8 is unbefitting a Jedi Knight. Then again I consider the whole WS / hit chart to be somewhat a load of bo**ox to begin with -a defending model needing more than 2x the WS of an attacker to gain any bonus whatsoever to avoid being struck always struck me as questionable. But I won't go on that tangent... Jedi are pretty much the most skilled blade fighters in their universe so I believe a high WS is befitting them.
I'd say a Jedi Master -between his finesse with a blade, augmented by his attunement to the force- has more skill in close combat than a marine captain. The captain has the advantage of much greater resliience and strength. Speed is debatable as I'm unsure for whether the force actually increases a Jedi's reactions past the humanly capable, or whether it's it all just incredible bu still human precision and reaction allowed by Then of course there's their gear and how it stands up. Does a lightsabre cleave through power armour (I imagine it does as it's at least the equivalent of a power sword). Would the sabre brean a power weapon or does the power field stop it dead? I imagine a force weapon would. But screwed if I know for sure! Guess that's where our own imagination and forging a narrative comes in handy...
Well weapon skill is determinant of how well skilled they are in combat not just with a blade. You can be the best swordsmen, but someone like lucius who was perfect with the blade has ws of 7. And I highly doubt that a jedi would be able to defeat lucius in a sword fight.
Furyou Miko wrote: Lucius isn't perfect with a sword, lol. He spends far too much time grandstanding and admiring his reflection in the blade.
He was considered the greatest swordsmen of his time and now he is a demon. He is rarely defeated and he can't be killed.
Actually that is an interesting thing, what would a jedi do in front of a demon? Would they flee? I know the masters would fight but a regular jedi would probably lose their mind as they aren't trained to deal with the warp. Or warp suggestion.
They are trained to resist dark side corruption and basically everything that the warp is, but I could see an apprentice losing his mind and rushing forward blindly(or running from) the daemon in question. As seen in the same SW cartoon above when Grievous attacks.
Furyou Miko wrote: They are trained to master their own emotions, however, so they'd probably be OK.
Demons are suggestors of things that even jedi would find tempting. They often lead the best intentioned down the path of damnation.
I mean they are free thinkers and that is will probably the death of their kind is their free thinking.
I am pretty sure they will not be okay. The Masters will be but regular knights. I think will have extremely difficult. Padawans will fall pretty easily.
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DoomShakaLaka wrote: They are trained to resist dark side corruption and basically everything that the warp is, but I could see an apprentice losing his mind and rushing forward blindly(or running from) the daemon in question. As seen in the same SW cartoon above when Grievous attacks.
Not exactly as the demons don't use normal methods that say the dark side uses they cover your mind and make you dothings they possess people easily they will do anything to weaken their enemies.
A normal Astartes has psychic conditioning before becoming an Astartes, and very few survive. And most are scarred after fighting demons.
Demons of Khorne they are easy. But demons of tzeench, demons of nurgle, and slannesh? These are pretty encompassing emotions they gain power from. I don't think they will because they are not the zealots that 40k are.
Furyou Miko wrote: Black Library books are just licensed fanfiction anyway. Kind of like Todd McCaffrey's pern novels.
Do you have any backup for this at all?
Black Library is a division of Games Workshop.
This is at the bottom of their website.
Yes. The Black Library tag means its licensed. The fact it was written by people other than the original author of the setting makes it fanfiction, especially given that all black library authors are fans of the setting.
This isn't a value debate. It's a linguistic one. The Black Library publish fiction written by fans of the setting. It is fan fiction.
Sometimes, they even edit it for cohesion with the rest of the published works.
The closest thing Black Library has to an "official author" is C.Z. Dunn, and that's because he happens to be on GW's bankroll as something other than a writer.
Its not a linguistic fight, we are not talking about things are pronounced or where their language comes from.
This a debate between 40k and starwars.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
raiden wrote: I'd rate storm trooper armor at 4+ like the more elite of the imperium.
If forced to put into TT stats...
Jedi- ws7, BS 5, str4, T4, W3, A4, I7 sv6+ LD 9
Ofc their lightsaber is ap2 fleshbane/armor bane
4++
3++ in close combat.
(No +6)
Master Jedi- WS 9 BS 5, str4, T4-5, W4, A6, I8, sv6+ LD10
3++ rerolling in close combat. (++3? Okay that is ridicilious no.
+5)
Unfortunately, there are very very few true Jedi Master..
For storm.troopers...
WS3, BS4 S3 T3 W1 A2 I3 sv4+ ld8
Imperial army trooper-
WS2 BS2 S3 T3 W1 A1 I3 sv5+ LD7 (8 for vet Sgts )
Umm ws9 is impossible for a mortal being.
Also
It would mean their weapon skill is greater than a being that is over several thousand years old. WS of 9 is pretty fething high.
A4? No. A2 for a normal jedi Ballistic skill is skill with a rifle or long range. Most jedi do not use guns. How the helk would they be better than men who have trained for years in combat service?
Toughness 4 means that they have a hardened shell around them. No that doesn't mean that at all. T3, they are not super humans with higher bone density and exoskeletons.
Good stats, except the lightsaber save. If it were true to the films It'd be more like 2++ on D100 for even a novice jedi. A master would be more like 2++ on D1000. Somewhat "unfun" for a tabletop game I know!
What. a ++2 save? so a Harliquen and an Autarch of the Eldar are worse than a jedi master? umm. No.
Jedi are the super beings of the SW universe, so yes master Jedi would indeed have weapon skill of 8-9, their movements are arguably more fluid and precise than an autarchs.
Jedi(not masters) are shown to down 3-4 droids in a second or with one strike in the MOVIES. So easily 3-4 attacks base.
T4, Luke had his hand sliced off and was still able to function/think
Anakin survived being sliced to bits by obi-wan AND being burned Alive from the heat of lava
Yoda falls several Stories and doesn't break ANYTHING. He gets up and walks off.
T4, YES.
We have evidence from the MOVIES with Jedi being proficient with blasters/other ranged weapons. I'd hear an argument for BS3-4 though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The invulnerable save is fine and the other idea was a tad ridiculous. Considering droids probably have ws1/2
Aherian, a trained knight would only have issues with corruption of the warp if they were already being corrupted by the dark side. Its the same people who would eventually leave and become Sith. EDIT or grey Jedi
Also many sith( such as Vader) would not accept chaos as he does not want to simply replace his master with another but to be his own master and rule the galaxy.
Furyou Miko wrote: They are trained to master their own emotions, however, so they'd probably be OK.
Demons are suggestors of things that even jedi would find tempting. They often lead the best intentioned down the path of damnation.
I mean they are free thinkers and that is will probably the death of their kind is their free thinking.
I am pretty sure they will not be okay. The Masters will be but regular knights. I think will have extremely difficult. Padawans will fall pretty easily.
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DoomShakaLaka wrote: They are trained to resist dark side corruption and basically everything that the warp is, but I could see an apprentice losing his mind and rushing forward blindly(or running from) the daemon in question. As seen in the same SW cartoon above when Grievous attacks.
Not exactly as the demons don't use normal methods that say the dark side uses they cover your mind and make you dothings they possess people easily they will do anything to weaken their enemies.
A normal Astartes has psychic conditioning before becoming an Astartes, and very few survive. And most are scarred after fighting demons.
Demons of Khorne they are easy. But demons of tzeench, demons of nurgle, and slannesh? These are pretty encompassing emotions they gain power from. I don't think they will because they are not the zealots that 40k are.
I agree on some points, masters would have none of it though,
Knights would likely resist,
Why?
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
(There is no chaos, there is harmony.)(*)
There is no death, there is the Force.
—The Jedi Code (Based on the meditations of Odan-Urr)
Padawans would be targets, but would quickly be put under closer scrutiny,
Jedi are free thinkers in that they are very libral, except towards ideas that cause chaos/disharmony/war/etc.
Sith recognize that they are slaves to anyone they aren't strong enough to overthrow.
They may not want a new master, but they will recognize those stronger than them.
As for weapon skill, WS5/6 *IS* superhuman.
As for being faster than an Autarch, what are you basing that on? Fanboyism? Autarchs aren't just "pinnicle of humanity". They aren't even human. They are well beyond Human in such measures.
Again, what makes a Jedi more skilled than Jain Zar or Asurmen?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the Jedi have spent their lives hardening themselves against the primal corruption's of the Dark Side. As sinister as it is, it is still unfocused, unplanning. The Warp equivalent is now driven by some of the most devious, calculating entities known to either galaxy. Most will stay strong, but such an abrupt context shift will cause many to break.
Bharring wrote: Sith recognize that they are slaves to anyone they aren't strong enough to overthrow.
They may not want a new master, but they will recognize those stronger than them.
As for weapon skill, WS5/6 *IS* superhuman.
As for being faster than an Autarch, what are you basing that on? Fanboyism? Autarchs aren't just "pinnicle of humanity". They aren't even human. They are well beyond Human in such measures.
Again, what makes a Jedi more skilled than Jain Zar or Asurmen?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the Jedi have spent their lives hardening themselves against the primal corruption's of the Dark Side. As sinister as it is, it is still unfocused, unplanning. The Warp equivalent is now driven by some of the most devious, calculating entities known to either galaxy. Most will stay strong, but such an abrupt context shift will cause many to break.
To tackle the argument on chaos
Korne/nurgle/slaanesh would likely corrupt none, save the young ones.
Tzeetnch... Is dangerous. Because Jedi -do- seek knowledge, I beleive tzeetnch would be able to corrupt a few of the non masters, and even tempt some masters, however, once the threat is discovered, they would implement counter measures.
One of the biggest things Jedi have to fight corruption is the force, and the fact they pretty much know what the force is. (No chaos claiming force is their power)
As for asurman and other pheonix lords, I am quite content to agree they should have a higher WS. So point taken.
So, masters having WS7/8 I suppose would be better. Just the fact that they can deflect several blaster fire rounds at once and hit the ones that shot at them is crazy.
Sith would be... A strange child. Many would bend a knee if shown the other is stronger, however, they always will be seeking to take out their master in devious ways.
To sith, betrayal, plots, plans, plans within plans is also power. +tzeetnch play ground here)
As for the Jedi vs Daemon, all I mean is that they probably won't panic or turn to gibbering wrecks upon witnessing them.
I don't think they would fair well though. Chaos corruption happens everywhere even the beings that are sworn to hunt them down.
Also I read this :
Jedi are the super beings of the SW universe, so yes master Jedi would indeed have weapon skill of 8-9, their movements are arguably more fluid and precise than an autarchs.
What. You do realize an Autarch has traveled several paths before he/she became an Autarch right? Autarch are what Chapter masters are to Imperial Guardsmen. They are literal gods on the battlefield. These guys are such good commanders that people like Yriel are counted among their number, they are sometime princes of the old eldar, the path of the leader for Eldar is one that is won through sheer skill and grace. AS such is the eldar race.
WS7 is equalvent to an Eldar Exarch. Who are centuries of years old.
They are held with high esteem by both Seers and warriors alike with each Autarch having mastered many paths across their centuries-long lifespans. This includes one or more facets of the Warrior Paths and at some point in their lives, they begin to show a passion for the intricacies of command as well as strategy. They do not believe in victory being achieved by simple martial excellence in the heat of the battlefield but that the true path lies in holding a wider vision whilst directing a warhost in achieving the most lethal as well as efficient manner. Thus, they walk the Path of Command which leads to a burning obsession where they see each mission and battle being part of a much grander battle plan. Inspiration and guidance comes to them from the mythical leaders of the ancient Houses such as Eldanesh, Ulthanash and Bierellian.[1a] The insight of an Autarch provides them with unparalleled strategic capability as they know of each specialty of the Eldar way of war to such an extent that even an Exarch cannot match them. This is because an Exarch is obsessed with only one facet of a conflict and thus forever bound to it, which prevents them from ever hoping to achieve the heights of an Autarch. Under their guidance, an Eldar warhost can turn out to be a well-honed machine where each component works in perfect synchornisity with its other parts. Though serving as generals, Autarchs are not relegated to simple command and when the bloodlust calls to them, they are quite capable of entering into the battlefield in order to spearhead assaults, duel with enemy leaders or destroy the war machines of their foes with contemptuous ease. In such times, winged Autarchs soar at the head of their forces where they swoop down into the battlefield in order to change the course of the battlefield with a well-placed strike.[1a] This makes them different from Seers who act as a Craftworld's guides and counselors; Autarchs are looked to during the times when the Eldar seek powerful leaders as well as masters. They are sought when the Seers deem the Eldar's fate being led to war and Autarchs are called upon for to their wartime leadership. Their skill, cunning and experience are unrivalled and they lead their fellows into battle where they impart to them every lesson of war. They are great leaders on the field of battle, which is the only place where they lead the Eldar as they have nothing but fire coursing through their veins. This means that Autarchs do not permanently retain their rank; when the time for was has passed, they return to their traditional rank of Exarch, and their traditional place as leaders of their Aspect shrines. Autarchs only ever assume power when they believe their path calls them towards war. It is only through sheer exertion of their will that they assume the Autarchy and gather warriors about them to follow this path. Among most Eldar, the Autarchy is considered a horrifying and dangerous concept as any of their kind can be entirely consumed by it. Thus, at best, an Autarch is guided by the Seers and at worst, they are guided only by the Path of War.[3a]
Read that again... Many paths of the Warrior. Think Of Jedi training and make that ten fold more effective.
These guys have been doing it for centuries get rid of that fanboyism as all eldar are pyskers, meaning think of jedi but with more powers and more control. The Eldar are a very powerful race. Nor should they be messed with. Jedi Masters would be slaughtered by an Exarch leveled Eldar. The Knights would have their hands full with a normal eldar warrior of any shrine, but an Autarch would lead from the front and would be terrifying for any foe to face.
Bharring wrote: Again, what makes a Jedi more skilled than Jain Zar or Asurmen?
Before you ask that question you have to quantify just what exactly Jain Zar and Asurmen are capable of. And I mean quantify in specific terms, not just "they're really awesome".
Autarchs have practiced many paths of war, but not devoted themselves to mastering any of them.
An Autarch isn't a combat monster, he's a leader/tactical type who happens to know eight or nine martial arts to a proficient degree, so a Jedi Guardian (combat specialist) might have a chance of taking him in a straight up fight on the condition that the Jedi's battle precognition, which is based on reading the disturbances caused by their opponent's intentions colouring their force signature, works on the Autarch.
Since the Autarch has no Force Presence (having no midichlorians and thus being the star wars equivalent to a psychic blank), its highly likely that the Jedi's battle precognition won't work, meaning that all the Jedi's force power combat trickery won't help him defend himself or get past the Autarch's defences either.
So really, it depends how much the Jedi in question has practiced their pure sword forms, as opposed to their Jedi martial arts. An Echani adept might have a better chance against an Autarch than any Jedi, since they're more pure martial artists.
Furyou Miko wrote: Autarchs have practiced many paths of war, but not devoted themselves to mastering any of them.
An Autarch isn't a combat monster, he's a leader/tactical type who happens to know eight or nine martial arts to a proficient degree, so a Jedi Guardian (combat specialist) might have a chance of taking him in a straight up fight on the condition that the Jedi's battle precognition, which is based on reading the disturbances caused by their opponent's intentions colouring their force signature, works on the Autarch.
Since the Autarch has no Force Presence (having no midichlorians and thus being the star wars equivalent to a psychic blank), its highly likely that the Jedi's battle precognition won't work, meaning that all the Jedi's force power combat trickery won't help him defend himself or get past the Autarch's defences either.
So really, it depends how much the Jedi in question has practiced their pure sword forms, as opposed to their Jedi martial arts. An Echani adept might have a better chance against an Autarch than any Jedi, since they're more pure martial artists.
There is also sometimes to suggest that they are sometimes Exarchs as well. As they are known to return to their shrines. As detailed in the codex quite often. As they 'ascend' to the duty of leadership. There is no shrine to the Autarchs they are just a leadership position that is ascended to.
Plus the eldar in combat are devoid of emotion according to some sources. But eldar are never traveling by themselves and most likely this would be an ambush on a very important leader of the Jedi. As the eldar would strike at the heart of their enemy or any who might have a chance at harming their manipulation game they are playing.
Before you ask that question you have to quantify just what exactly Jain Zar and Asurmen are capable of. And I mean quantify in specific terms, not just "they're really awesome".
They are phoenix Lords.
Literal Demigods who are just reborn after they die.
The Phoenix Lords are immortal, after a fashion. When a Phoenix Lord is slain in battle, his place is taken by another Eldar who assumes his costume and identity. In this way the Phoenix Lord is reborn into a fresh cycle of existence. His suit includes a spirit stone which contains the spirits of all the Eldar who have become that Phoenix Lord. Yet, no matter how many different individuals a Phoenix Lord may have been, his mind is forever the same, driven by the dominant personality of the first and greatest warrior to wear the suit.
The Eldar sourcees by the way are quite trustworthy compared to imperial ones. As there is no propganda from the Eldar apart from their legends which are just legends.
The Eldar Phoenix Lords are the greatest warriors of their shrines, Dire Avenger, Banshees, and Scorpions. These are the greatest powers of the Eldar race. That are still living.
I don'T buy that, Eldars could very well try to strike fear into the mind of ''lesser being'' or there could be tales of scared civies and defeated guardsmen and marines.
Bobthehero wrote: I don'T buy that, Eldars could very well try to strike fear into the mind of ''lesser being'' or there could be tales of scared civies and defeated guardsmen and marines.
They are alot more trustworthy because most of the records of the eldar are assumed penned by the Ordo Xenos and Inqusitiors (hence why there are many quotes to Inqusitiors of the Ordo Xenos)
I mean I highly doubt a xenophobic Guardsmen would know anything other than what a space marine is. Remember in the imperium space marines are a rare site, hell most don't even know what an inqusitior is. They maybe familar with the Ordo Xenos, but the other ordos they know nothing about.
They are certainly more trustworthy than space marine or imperial guard sources. As most don't live on to write about their encounters with other xenos. Some chapters do have records of other xenos.
There is also sometimes to suggest that they are sometimes Exarchs as well. As they are known to return to their shrines. As detailed in the codex quite often. As they 'ascend' to the duty of leadership. There is no shrine to the Autarchs they are just a leadership position that is ascended to.
They can't be exarchs. Exarchs are't capable of taking command roles because they're lost in their aspect.
Furyou Miko wrote: Since the Autarch has no Force Presence (having no midichlorians and thus being the star wars equivalent to a psychic blank), its highly likely that the Jedi's battle precognition won't work, meaning that all the Jedi's force power combat trickery won't help him defend himself or get past the Autarch's defences either.
Counter-point. Battle precognition works when dealing with droids (see opening of Episode 1 for reference). Droids cannot have midichlorians, and as such would have no Force presence. Supposedly battle precog is kind of like Spidermans spidey-sense, only instead of "tingling" it says "put blade here."
Literal Demigods who are just reborn after they die.
That's not quantifying anything, it's just more useless fluff. Give some specific numbers on speed, reaction time, etc.
The Eldar Phoenix Lords are the greatest warriors of their shrines, Dire Avenger, Banshees, and Scorpions. These are the greatest powers of the Eldar race. That are still living.
So what? Being the best Eldar doesn't mean they're better than jedi, just like it doesn't mean they're better than Culture combat drones.
There is also sometimes to suggest that they are sometimes Exarchs as well. As they are known to return to their shrines. As detailed in the codex quite often. As they 'ascend' to the duty of leadership. There is no shrine to the Autarchs they are just a leadership position that is ascended to.
They can't be exarchs. Exarchs are't capable of taking command roles because they're lost in their aspect.
This means that Autarchs do not permanently retain their rank; when the time for was has passed, they return to their traditional rank of Exarch, and their traditional place as leaders of their Aspect shrines. Autarchs only ever assume power when they believe their path calls them towards war. It is only through sheer exertion of their will that they assume the Autarchy and gather warriors about them to follow this path. Among most Eldar, the Autarchy is considered a horrifying and dangerous concept as any of their kind can be entirely consumed by it. Thus, at best, an Autarch is guided by the Seers and at worst, they are guided only by the Path of War.[3a]
Autarchs are selected from the exarchs. Exarchs become Autarchs and leave behind their path and combine it for the path of leadership.
Literal Demigods who are just reborn after they die.
That's not quantifying anything, it's just more useless fluff. Give some specific numbers on speed, reaction time, etc.
The Eldar Phoenix Lords are the greatest warriors of their shrines, Dire Avenger, Banshees, and Scorpions. These are the greatest powers of the Eldar race. That are still living.
So what? Being the best Eldar doesn't mean they're better than jedi, just like it doesn't mean they're better than Culture combat drones.
Culture is not involved, get out of this thread with this logical loop you are making.
If you want numbers they are shown
WS and BS of 7
Strength and Toughness of 4
3 Wounds
Initiative of 7
4 Attacks base
10 Leadership
Phoenix Armor: 2+ armor save
Meaning they are quite damn powerful with Game mechanics but in terms of lore....
Being the greatest among their kind means one thing they are greater than space marines, they can kill demons fairly easily. And out of all the phoeinx lords.
Now you are just acting like a fanboy though saying that a literal demigod would struggle against a being with a bathrobe a light saber.
Furyou Miko wrote: Since the Autarch has no Force Presence (having no midichlorians and thus being the star wars equivalent to a psychic blank), its highly likely that the Jedi's battle precognition won't work, meaning that all the Jedi's force power combat trickery won't help him defend himself or get past the Autarch's defences either.
Counter-point. Battle precognition works when dealing with droids (see opening of Episode 1 for reference). Droids cannot have midichlorians, and as such would have no Force presence. Supposedly battle precog is kind of like Spidermans spidey-sense, only instead of "tingling" it says "put blade here."
Counter point. Eldar are known precogs as well. As everyone in their race can predict the future and they are all pyskers.
Bharring wrote: And Eldar are perhaps the weakest head-to-head enemy of all the major factions in 40k.
The Eldar's speed is what gets most people. They move pretty damn quickly. That is what initiative means after all in terms of ingame.
Interms of the lore they move so quickly that astartes have trouble handling them. Hence why howling banshees kill space marines so quickly its because they are moving quickly and slicing through power armor like jelly.
I'm not doubting that that is the fluff in some places, but it contradicts a bunch of other fluff.
I think this is one more candidate for head canon. Autarchs may have walked multiple paths - may even be walking one when called to battle - but they certainly weren't lost on more than one path! Canon makes some dumb claims some times. Another fork for my personal head canon.
Asherian Command wrote: Culture is not involved, get out of this thread with this logical loop you are making.
You're completely missing the point. The Culture combat drone is just a clear example of something that will defeat any Eldar in a 1v1 fight. It indisputably proves my point that saying "X is better than some other thing in its own setting" doesn't mean "X is better than something in a different setting", because the greatest Eldar ever still loses to the drone. So it's quite possible that the greatest Eldar ever still loses to a jedi, because you haven't yet provided any direct comparison between the two.
If you want numbers they are shown
I said numbers, not game mechanics. For example, what is their reaction time in seconds?
Being the greatest among their kind means one thing they are greater than space marines, they can kill demons fairly easily. And out of all the phoeinx lords.
What's your point? As I said, being the best in 40k doesn't necessarily mean that they're better than things from other universes.
Now you are just acting like a fanboy though saying that a literal demigod would struggle against a being with a bathrobe a light saber.
Irony, thy name is Asherian Command. Your arguments here are textbook fanboyism, you talk a lot about how {thing from 40k} is really awesome but that's about it. You never quantify anything or prove that it wins, you just assume it by default because you want 40k to win.
Bharring wrote: I'm not doubting that that is the fluff in some places, but it contradicts a bunch of other fluff.
I think this is one more candidate for head canon. Autarchs may have walked multiple paths - may even be walking one when called to battle - but they certainly weren't lost on more than one path! Canon makes some dumb claims some times. Another fork for my personal head canon.
Well they walked down several paths before hand, doesn't mean they got lost in all of them, they got lost on one and then later ascended to the rank of Autarch. That is probably what is happening. They don't say they got lost on all the paths as an eldar can only ever get lost on one path.
Also can you guys stop saying headcanon there is canon, so stop using that argument. You are not peregrine.
You're completely missing the point. The Culture combat drone is just a clear example of something that will defeat any Eldar in a 1v1 fight. It indisputably proves my point that saying "X is better than some other thing in its own setting" doesn't mean "X is better than something in a different setting", because the greatest Eldar ever still loses to the drone. So it's quite possible that the greatest Eldar ever still loses to a jedi, because you haven't yet provided any direct comparison between the two.
You know I can't take you seriously at this point right? Your opinion is just as convulted as ever and only trying to make someones argument pointless to try to make yourself feel better. Get out of this thread and learn how to debate. Stop insulting people and saying "OH THIS IS MY HEADCANON THOUGH! SO IN MY UNIVERSE THE CULTURE EXIST!" That doesn't help the debate nor does it aide in anything. You are just trying to show yourself off as some intellectual with no backing, no lore, no fluff, nothing. You bring no evidence to the table PERIOD. Why the helk would I listen to your opinion if you have not offered anything to this discussion?
I said numbers, not game mechanics. For example, what is their reaction time in seconds?
You do it yourself I don't have to pull out numbers when that doesn't suit the argument. nor does the starwars universe have that! You know how I know! because I checked!
Irony, thy name is Asherian Command. Your arguments here are textbook fanboyism, you talk a lot about how {thing from 40k} is really awesome but that's about it. You never quantify anything or prove that it wins, you just assume it by default because you want 40k to win.
What Asherian is one of my characters from a short story I wrote set in a medevil world. Its part of a Statement "Asherian commands thee."
AS in the world that the character asherian is from is a sorta of matyr in the world that character is in.
Seen more as a god than a man.
Also that is incredibly insulting and there is no point in arguing with you if you degrade me so because of your high opinion of yourself constituting as the only correct opinion on the planet.
Asherian Command wrote: You know I can't take you seriously at this point right? Your opinion is just as convulted as ever and only trying to make someones argument pointless to try to make yourself feel better. Get out of this thread and learn how to debate.
Alternatively, you spend a few moments to try to understand what I'm saying instead of reflexively thinking "OMG HE SAID THE C WORD". Here is what you're saying:
X > Y therefore X > Z
What you actually need to have a valid argument:
X > Y and Y > Z therefore X > Z
You've completely skipped the "Y > Z" part and just assumed that if one Eldar is better than other Eldar they must be better than jedi. And that's a completely broken argument. The example of the Culture drone just demonstrates why it is broken.
You do it yourself I don't have to pull out numbers when that doesn't suit the argument.
IOW, all you have is "EDAR ARE REALLY AWESOME!!!!!!!!!" fanboyism, not quantifiable evidence that they beat jedi.
What Asherian is one of my characters from a short story I wrote set in a medevil world. Its part of a Statement "Asherian commands thee."
AS in the world that the character asherian is from is a sorta of matyr in the world that character is in.
Seen more as a god than a man.
...
I think I speak for everyone when I say "huh?". What are you trying to say here?
Also that is incredibly insulting and there is no point in arguing with you if you degrade me so because of your high opinion of yourself constituting as the only correct opinion on the planet.
I don't have the only correct opinion on the planet, I just don't think that your opinion is valid. Pointing out how terrible your arguments are doesn't mean that I think everyone else is wrong too.
So let me get this straight. You claim Jedi can't precog movement of the Eldar because they don't have midichlorians but Jedi can be corrupted/ affected by the warp even though they don't "have a warp presence" as the warp does not exist in SW.
Are you some kind of fanboy? Either it works for both or it works for neither.
Furyou Miko wrote: They are trained to master their own emotions, however, so they'd probably be OK.
No. All Jedi still feel emotions such as triumph, love, hate, pride, etc. Simply having slight twitch of pride or glee at taking down Lucius leads to you decorating his armor.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: So let me get this straight. You claim Jedi can't precog movement of the Eldar because they don't have midichlorians but Jedi can be corrupted/ affected by the warp even though they don't "have a warp presence" as the warp does not exist in SW.
Are you some kind of fanboy? Either it works for both or it works for neither.
Warp prescene happens to all souls. If you lack a soul you are a pariah or a black pariah. But Jedi are not this, they are just jedi, they have souls. They have a presence in the warp no matter where they are, what universe you are in if 40k invades your universe.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: Aherian, a trained knight would only have issues with corruption of the warp if they were already being corrupted by the dark side. Its the same people who would eventually leave and become Sith. EDIT or grey Jedi
Also many sith( such as Vader) would not accept chaos as he does not want to simply replace his master with another but to be his own master and rule the galaxy.
You can't resist Chaos by simply being strong willed unless you're unique in nature (like a Primarch who is warp spawn to begin with). Otherwise you need very specific training or warding such as the training of Sanctioned Psykers or warding on Grey Knight Aegis Armor. Especially when Jedi have zero experience with such warp abominations that can possess your body after simply thinking angry thoughts. Especially in the long term when Chaos can corrupt them by manipulating emotions such as love.
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Bobthehero wrote: The long gun used by clones can hit targets at 10 km away. See my comments about the 35 miles thing.
Still, it means that range is a non issue for e'm.
And wherever you saw that bolter had longer range than lasguns?
Yet Clones never used their weapons in such a manner. It doesn't matter if something is hypothetically capable of something- the US is hypothetically capable of nuking the entire middle east, but just like Clones suddenly growing a brain and realized they have a ten kilometer sniper rifle, it's irrelevant unless they demonstrate a willingness to use it. Sith are likewise hypothetically capable of rupturing all your organs (as are Jedi), yet almost never use such powers when it would have very well saved their lives.
Please provide evidence that jedi have "souls" as defined by 40k. And when you do, remember that not all living beings (or even humans) in 40k have souls, so "they're humans of course they have souls" is not an acceptable answer.
LordBlades wrote: I think Star Wars blasters are a lot more powerful than people.give them credit.
Acvording to wookiepedia (with the primary sources being some very old books), it's almost impossible to penetrate stormtrooper armor with slugthrowers (Star Wars projectile weapons), while it offers way less protection against blaster bolts.
This means that, in Star Wars, blasters are likely significantly more powerful than projectile weapons. Depending on how Star Wars projectile weapons compare to 40k projectile weapons, this might mean blasters are also significantly more powerful than lasguns (since lasguns are roughly equivalent in power to autoguns).
FFS, stop taking things on the wiki for fact. As a bit of a warsie, it's quite often full of gak. Plasotid armor, the carapace gear worn by Clones and Stormtroopers, has been penetrated by spears on two occasions (TCW episode on an ice world where xenos riddled clones with spears and Endor in ROTJ) and completely shredded by a spike pit styled like Indiana Jones. Now unless the Talz, Ewoks, and stone pit were generating more energy with the spears (or the stormtroopers falling into the pit) generated more energy than a supersonic bullet, it's more likely the bullets that failed to penn their armor were complete garbage rounds.
Additionally, there are slugthrowers capable of sundering Plastoid armor and are famous for it in the first place.
Wyzilla wrote: You can't resist Chaos by simply being strong willed unless you're unique in nature (like a Primarch who is warp spawn to begin with). Otherwise you need very specific training or warding such as the training of Sanctioned Psykers or warding on Grey Knight Aegis Armor.
So why doesn't chaos corrupt everything? Why is anyone in the Imperium still loyal and uncorrupted? People who get that specific training are incredibly rare, so chaos should be able to corrupt the vast majority of the Imperium and then slaughter the few who can't be corrupted with overwhelming military power.
Please provide evidence that jedi have "souls" as defined by 40k. And when you do, remember that not all living beings (or even humans) in 40k have souls, so "they're humans of course they have souls" is not an acceptable answer.
Everything has a soul by default. The only way you don't is if you're a genetically engineered blank by the Necrons. Otherwise all other organic life possesses it, even (possibly) some machines.
Wyzilla wrote: FFS, stop taking things on the wiki for fact. As a bit of a warsie, it's quite often full of gak. Plasotid armor, the carapace gear worn by Clones and Stormtroopers, has been penetrated by spears on two occasions (TCW episode on an ice world where xenos riddled clones with spears and Endor in ROTJ) and completely shredded by a spike pit styled like Indiana Jones. Now unless the Talz, Ewoks, and stone pit were generating more energy with the spears (or the stormtroopers falling into the pit) generated more energy than a supersonic bullet, it's more likely the bullets that failed to penn their armor were complete garbage rounds.
Actually this isn't a very good argument because in the real world body armor designed to stop bullets isn't very good at stopping knives. So it's quite possible to have armor that is able to stop a bullet but can be penetrated by a spear.
Additionally, there are slugthrowers capable of sundering Plastoid armor and are famous for it in the first place.
And that fame is a pretty good argument that bullets in general are very poor at penetrating stormtrooper armor and these guns are a special exception. Otherwise being able to penetrate stormtrooper armor wouldn't be something to brag about.
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Wyzilla wrote: Everything has a soul by default. The only way you don't is if you're a genetically engineered blank by the Necrons. Otherwise all other organic life possesses it, even (possibly) some machines.
In 40k everything has a soul. This is not necessarily true outside of 40k, especially since even in 40k there are living things without souls. If you can genetically engineer a blank then the obvious conclusion is that having a soul is also genetic, and someone from Star Wars probably isn't going to have the same genes as someone from 40k.
Wyzilla wrote: You can't resist Chaos by simply being strong willed unless you're unique in nature (like a Primarch who is warp spawn to begin with). Otherwise you need very specific training or warding such as the training of Sanctioned Psykers or warding on Grey Knight Aegis Armor.
So why doesn't chaos corrupt everything? Why is anyone in the Imperium still loyal and uncorrupted? People who get that specific training are incredibly rare, so chaos should be able to corrupt the vast majority of the Imperium and then slaughter the few who can't be corrupted with overwhelming military power.
They don't want to. You have to remember that the number one thing Chaos does not want to do is win- it wants entertainment. Remember the entire Horus Heresy was a perfectly executed plot by Chaos to plunge the galaxy into a war lasting ten millennia (which may stretch on for far longer if Curze's prophecies are correct). Chaos overplaying its hand and crushing the Imperium would fly right in the face of the all events in the past and end the game the gods have been playing. Chaos can only exist if there is Order to oppose.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: Aherian, a trained knight would only have issues with corruption of the warp if they were already being corrupted by the dark side. Its the same people who would eventually leave and become Sith. EDIT or grey Jedi
Also many sith( such as Vader) would not accept chaos as he does not want to simply replace his master with another but to be his own master and rule the galaxy.
You can't resist Chaos by simply being strong willed unless you're unique in nature (like a Primarch who is warp spawn to begin with). Otherwise you need very specific training or warding such as the training of Sanctioned Psykers or warding on Grey Knight Aegis Armor. Especially when Jedi have zero experience with such warp abominations that can possess your body after simply thinking angry thoughts. Especially in the long term when Chaos can corrupt them by manipulating emotions such as love.
yeah so the training they received to resist dark forces won't work because it wasn't the specific dark force were talking about. Sure
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Bobthehero wrote: The long gun used by clones can hit targets at 10 km away. See my comments about the 35 miles thing.
Still, it means that range is a non issue for e'm.
And wherever you saw that bolter had longer range than lasguns?
Yet Clones never used their weapons in such a manner. It doesn't matter if something is hypothetically capable of something- the US is hypothetically capable of nuking the entire middle east, but just like Clones suddenly growing a brain and realized they have a ten kilometer sniper rifle, it's irrelevant unless they demonstrate a willingness to use it. Sith are likewise hypothetically capable of rupturing all your organs (as are Jedi), yet almost never use such powers when it would have very well saved their lives.
So lets see: In the SW universe the force is what bonds all life and the universe together. Everything living, dead, past, present, and future.
Now in the 40k universe all beings have souls and as such are affected by the warp.
You claim that because "midichlorians do not exist in 40k" that the force and precog do not work against them. YET even though there is NO mention of the warp, or souls in SW that they are still affected by the warp anyways.
Bulls*t
Also would like to point out that though midichlorians are found in large quantities in force users that this doesn't necessarily mean that they " make" you force sensitive. In fact midichlorians very well could be a by-product created by force sensitive individuals body systems reaction to the force flowing through them.
Autarchs are warriors that have travelled almost every path of the warrior. BUT they "mastered it" without losing themselves to it. Autarchs are NOT selected from exarchs, (see path of the warrior)
Phoenix lords die alot, kharandras lost to a space marine dreadnaught. His rebirth was only done by absorbing the souls/life force of the striking scorpions exarch(S).
I know plenty of eldar fluff, one of my top 3 fav. Factions in 40k.
However, just as imperial propaganda uplifts people, myths and legend about the Phoenix lords do the same.
(Hell even star wars has licensed books with a sith lord literally sucking the life out of an entire planet, turning -everything- with life force into dust, to become immortal), and the Jedi masters have the ability to live on after death with at least interaction on a communication level.(episode 6)
As for.points made about love-
No, Jedi do not love, only the grey Jedi love, the Jedi order prohibits marriage or love. Their teachings SAY it can lead down dark paths. So no, sorry chaos.
Chaos is about feeding the person, it takes their desires and leads them breadcrumb down the path of no return, Jedi are, oddly enough, much like buddist monks. They won't take the bait 99/100 times. (Not saying none would fall, just very few... And I'd wager no true Jedi Master would fall)
Given I though pheonix lords based on melee were WS8... I'll lower the Jedi Master to 7, Jedi knight 6.
The idea that the resistance is different between Dark Side and the Gods of Chaos isn't that the name is different. Its that they behave very, very differently.
If you brace yourself against a force coming straight at you, hand hold it back for a lifetime, you're not prepared for a force to push you sideways.
Likewise, Jedi are practiced in resisting primal calls towards the dark side. But there is no intelligence or plan behind them. They are just a primal force. Perhaps Khorne might have trouble swaying Jedi, but the other three are nothing like what Jedi have resisted.
So lets see: In the SW universe the force is what bonds all life and the universe together. Everything living, dead, past, present, and future.
Now in the 40k universe all beings have souls and as such are affected by the warp.
You claim that because "midichlorians do not exist in 40k" that the force and precog do not work against them. YET even though there is NO mention of the warp, or souls in SW that they are still affected by the warp anyways.
Bulls*t
Also would like to point out that though midichlorians are found in large quantities in force users that this doesn't necessarily mean that they " make" you force sensitive. In fact midichlorians very well could be a by-product created by force sensitive individuals body systems reaction to the force flowing through them.
Midichlorians don't exist in 40k because there is no force, There is only the warp and pyskers. Every being that has a soul can be effected by the warp that is what binds 40k. Those that don't are usually outcasts and cause disturbances that even those who are not pyskers can feel.
Midichlorians are also within the blood stream according to the phantom menace.
They don't work because these individuals have a different basis. If it was all described as magic that would be a different matter but each universe has its own rules and things that bind the universe.
I'm not saying most will fall - probably between 5% and 30% in the first decade. Fairly evenly split between all ranks except Master, which would be lower.
7 for a Master I could see. 6 or below for others, I would think.
So lets see: In the SW universe the force is what bonds all life and the universe together. Everything living, dead, past, present, and future. Now in the 40k universe all beings have souls and as such are affected by the warp.
You claim that because "midichlorians do not exist in 40k" that the force and precog do not work against them. YET even though there is NO mention of the warp, or souls in SW that they are still affected by the warp anyways.
You might want to check your contacts, as I never stated such. The training Jedi receive does not prepare them remotely for facing entities such as Daemons, which are hellspawn from a completely different universe lacking any physical laws as we understand them. You need very specific training to protect against poessession against wards. As there are no Daemons in Star Wars (or at least of the likes, there are some funky Force monters like Abeloth), Jedi or Sith have not received the proper training to protect against such possession or corruption and thus are incredibly vulnerable. If they received the same training as an Inquisitor they'd be alright when exposed to the Warp.... but they haven't.
Don't understand what the hell you're rambling on about.
Also would like to point out that though midichlorians are found in large quantities in force users that this doesn't necessarily mean that they " make" you force sensitive. In fact midichlorians very well could be a by-product created by force sensitive individuals body systems reaction to the force flowing through them.
No gak Sherlock.
Also on the subject of Phoenix Lords, they are immortal. They're gestalt consciousness stored inside their armor. The host that wears the armor can be killed, but the armor and the entity it contains cannot. You can of course lose said armor, but even then it sometimes will teleport out and reappear somewhere else. Either way death is just a temporary inconvenience for a Phoenix Lord.
The fact that Jedis and Seths, if indeed are psykers, never became chaos portals by using their power, should show just enough of the fact that they are fundamentally different. Not to mention, even if the warp can be swapped for the force, since the "Warp Space" in 40K is not filled with Demons (in fact, they have an utterly peaceful afterlife), the Force users would easily succumb to demonic incursion should they cross into the 40K universe.
As for the Stormtrooper range... well, I still have problems with their laser weapons shooting short, sub-light speed light bolts.
So lets see: In the SW universe the force is what bonds all life and the universe together. Everything living, dead, past, present, and future.
Now in the 40k universe all beings have souls and as such are affected by the warp.
You claim that because "midichlorians do not exist in 40k" that the force and precog do not work against them. YET even though there is NO mention of the warp, or souls in SW that they are still affected by the warp anyways.
You might want to check your contacts, as I never stated such. The training Jedi receive does not prepare them remotely for facing entities such as Daemons, which are hellspawn from a completely different universe lacking any physical laws as we understand them. You need very specific training to protect against poessession against wards. As there are no Daemons in Star Wars (or at least of the likes, there are some funky Force monters like Abeloth), Jedi or Sith have not received the proper training to protect against such possession or corruption and thus are incredibly vulnerable. If they received the same training as an Inquisitor they'd be alright when exposed to the Warp.... but they haven't.
Don't understand what the hell you're rambling on about.
Also would like to point out that though midichlorians are found in large quantities in force users that this doesn't necessarily mean that they " make" you force sensitive. In fact midichlorians very well could be a by-product created by force sensitive individuals body systems reaction to the force flowing through them.
No gak Sherlock.
In 40k it is also suggested that even beings that have no soul still can be possessed (AKA the Black Pariah being the only noted example.) The problem is not whether they can resist the warp or not is that if they are able to handle it and the demons that come from the warp.
Demons, Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, The Imperium, and Necrons vs the Star Wars with its extended universe, in the end after defeating one threat the other threat will devour the last threat and add to their army. The Orks would be an eternal fued with the star wars universe they wouldn't kill everyone they would just want to fight "W'ere da fighting is getun gud!"
raiden wrote: Autarchs are warriors that have travelled almost every path of the warrior. BUT they "mastered it" without losing themselves to it. Autarchs are NOT selected from exarchs, (see path of the warrior)
Phoenix lords die alot, kharandras lost to a space marine dreadnaught. His rebirth was only done by absorbing the souls/life force of the striking scorpions exarch(S).
I know plenty of eldar fluff, one of my top 3 fav. Factions in 40k.
However, just as imperial propaganda uplifts people, myths and legend about the Phoenix lords do the same.
(Hell even star wars has licensed books with a sith lord literally sucking the life out of an entire planet, turning -everything- with life force into dust, to become immortal), and the Jedi masters have the ability to live on after death with at least interaction on a communication level.(episode 6)
As for.points made about love-
No, Jedi do not love, only the grey Jedi love, the Jedi order prohibits marriage or love. Their teachings SAY it can lead down dark paths. So no, sorry chaos.
Chaos is about feeding the person, it takes their desires and leads them breadcrumb down the path of no return, Jedi are, oddly enough, much like buddist monks. They won't take the bait 99/100 times. (Not saying none would fall, just very few... And I'd wager no true Jedi Master would fall)
Given I though pheonix lords based on melee were WS8... I'll lower the Jedi Master to 7, Jedi knight 6.
All Jedi love. The entire idea of the Light Side of the Force is based on love. It's what drives them to protect the meek from factions such as Sith, indeed it is only the TOR Jedi that refuse to take mates... which in the end blew up completely in their face and led to the order being slaughtered. The Jedi Order set up by the Skywalkers meanwhile suffered no such issues, and snipped in the bud any chance of characters like Anakin Skywalker popping up and leading the near extinction of the Jedi again.
But I really have to laugh if you think Jedi don't feel any love at all, in which case means their entire ideology just blew over your head. They're warrior monks. They hold no possessions so that nothing may ail them with self interests. That doesn't stop them from feeling the emotion, and it certainly doesn't stop them from having flings. Even Obi-Wan Kenobi, posterboy perfect Jedi, had several romantic flings throughout his life.
Also just to highlight the inconsistency in WS stats, a human assassin with presumably a few decades of experience has superior WS than the aforementioned centuries-old Phoenix Lords.
Furyou Miko wrote: Since the Autarch has no Force Presence (having no midichlorians and thus being the star wars equivalent to a psychic blank), its highly likely that the Jedi's battle precognition won't work, meaning that all the Jedi's force power combat trickery won't help him defend himself or get past the Autarch's defences either.
And this:
Asherian Command wrote: .
Warp prescene happens to all souls. If you lack a soul you are a pariah or a black pariah. But Jedi are not this, they are just jedi, they have souls. They have a presence in the warp no matter where they are, what universe you are in if 40k invades your universe.
And many other posts like it. People are just positing ideas they have as facts and then dismissing everything else.
Also me mentioning that midichlorians are not necessarily the cause of force sensitivity is to combat the claims that Tyranids just need to munch on a few Jedi and then be jedi-nids because reasons.
Keep in mind Chaos only cares about the material universe because the Emperor screwed them over.
Even then the Chaos Gods only give a fraction of their attention to the material universe and even then it's basically a past time for them.
Therefore I suspect Chaos will gain little in the way of a foothold in the SW universe since they might not even notice it.
I doubt the Imperium will send SM to the SW universe since they pose very little actual threat to them compared to the other 40k factions (same with assassins, too little payoff).
Tau would try diplomacy but little else.
Orks would wreck vast portions of the star wars universe, especially since they would quickly co opt hyper space technology and just throw themselves all over the place.
Necrons have presumably no tomb worlds in SW, so I imagine they won't care either.
Most factions would be severely inhibited by possible lack of warp travel, especially Tyranids.
Imperial Guard are a much bigger threat though. There are so many IG they don't even bother counting them, so the Imperium won't think twice about sending a few dozen regiments and naval support at them. 40K ships munitions are larger than most SW craft, so barring large fleets that won't be a problem.
Even a Feral world regiment would quickly drown most SW planets with bodies, artillery and orbital strikes. And I doubt a Jedi can handle swarms of fanatical IG and artillery.
I don't think either universe could beat the other but a few regiments of IG would certainly carve a path through them.
Furyou Miko wrote: Since the Autarch has no Force Presence (having no midichlorians and thus being the star wars equivalent to a psychic blank), its highly likely that the Jedi's battle precognition won't work, meaning that all the Jedi's force power combat trickery won't help him defend himself or get past the Autarch's defences either.
And this:
Asherian Command wrote: . Warp prescene happens to all souls. If you lack a soul you are a pariah or a black pariah. But Jedi are not this, they are just jedi, they have souls. They have a presence in the warp no matter where they are, what universe you are in if 40k invades your universe.
And many other posts like it. People are just positing ideas they have as facts and then dismissing everything else.
Also me mentioning that midichlorians are not necessarily the cause of force sensitivity is to combat the claims that Tyranids just need to munch on a few Jedi and then be jedi-nids because reasons.
Oh, that is bs. Not only does everything have a presence in the force (unless you forcibly remove it), even Clones being able to manifest slight force abilities under some advice from Yoda. Especially when Droids were fought by Jedi all the time, lack an organic connection to it, and often got their asses kicked.
Well, unless those droids were HK-47, IG-88, an IG-100, or other various assassin models.
raiden wrote: Autarchs are warriors that have travelled almost every path of the warrior. BUT they "mastered it" without losing themselves to it. Autarchs are NOT selected from exarchs, (see path of the warrior)
Phoenix lords die alot, kharandras lost to a space marine dreadnaught. His rebirth was only done by absorbing the souls/life force of the striking scorpions exarch(S).
I know plenty of eldar fluff, one of my top 3 fav. Factions in 40k.
However, just as imperial propaganda uplifts people, myths and legend about the Phoenix lords do the same.
(Hell even star wars has licensed books with a sith lord literally sucking the life out of an entire planet, turning -everything- with life force into dust, to become immortal), and the Jedi masters have the ability to live on after death with at least interaction on a communication level.(episode 6)
As for.points made about love-
No, Jedi do not love, only the grey Jedi love, the Jedi order prohibits marriage or love. Their teachings SAY it can lead down dark paths. So no, sorry chaos.
Chaos is about feeding the person, it takes their desires and leads them breadcrumb down the path of no return, Jedi are, oddly enough, much like buddist monks. They won't take the bait 99/100 times. (Not saying none would fall, just very few... And I'd wager no true Jedi Master would fall)
Given I though pheonix lords based on melee were WS8... I'll lower the Jedi Master to 7, Jedi knight 6.
All Jedi love. The entire idea of the Light Side of the Force is based on love. It's what drives them to protect the meek from factions such as Sith, indeed it is only the TOR Jedi that refuse to take mates... which in the end blew up completely in their face and led to the order being slaughtered. The Jedi Order set up by the Skywalkers meanwhile suffered no such issues, and snipped in the bud any chance of characters like Anakin Skywalker popping up and leading the near extinction of the Jedi again.
But I really have to laugh if you think Jedi don't feel any love at all, in which case means their entire ideology just blew over your head. They're warrior monks. They hold no possessions so that nothing may ail them with self interests. That doesn't stop them from feeling the emotion, and it certainly doesn't stop them from having flings. Even Obi-Wan Kenobi, posterboy perfect Jedi, had several romantic flings throughout his life.
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
—The Jedi Code (Based on the meditations of Odan-Urr)
I'll just repost this. Jedi don't love, they care about others, brotherly love, etc. Friendship/kinship. They don't "love". Or at the least, the masters don't, and their code says they arent supposed to, so please, make sure you understand my statement before assuming things, and make sure you understand the Jedi code before stating what it is.
However, I've read little on what Skywalker set up after the empire collapsed... So if he changed things I'll withdraw my statement about not being supposed to " love".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
thegreatchimp wrote: Also just to highlight the inconsistency in WS stats, a human assassin with presumably a few decades of experience has superior WS than the aforementioned centuries-old Phoenix Lords.
This is another reason I gave Jedi masters WS8 and with that, I'll hold that Jedi Masters WS would be either 7/8.
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
—The Jedi Code (Based on the meditations of Odan-Urr)
I'll just repost this. Jedi don't love, they care about others, brotherly love, etc. Friendship/kinship. They don't "love". Or at the least, the masters don't, and their code says they arent supposed to, so please, make sure you understand my statement before assuming things, and make sure you understand the Jedi code before stating what it is.
However, I've read little on what Skywalker set up after the empire collapsed... So if he changed things I'll withdraw my statement about not being supposed to " love".
Ya see, there's a difference between what one says... and what one does
raiden wrote: Autarchs are warriors that have travelled almost every path of the warrior. BUT they "mastered it" without losing themselves to it. Autarchs are NOT selected from exarchs, (see path of the warrior)
Phoenix lords die alot, kharandras lost to a space marine dreadnaught. His rebirth was only done by absorbing the souls/life force of the striking scorpions exarch(S).
I know plenty of eldar fluff, one of my top 3 fav. Factions in 40k.
However, just as imperial propaganda uplifts people, myths and legend about the Phoenix lords do the same.
(Hell even star wars has licensed books with a sith lord literally sucking the life out of an entire planet, turning -everything- with life force into dust, to become immortal), and the Jedi masters have the ability to live on after death with at least interaction on a communication level.(episode 6)
As for.points made about love-
No, Jedi do not love, only the grey Jedi love, the Jedi order prohibits marriage or love. Their teachings SAY it can lead down dark paths. So no, sorry chaos.
Chaos is about feeding the person, it takes their desires and leads them breadcrumb down the path of no return, Jedi are, oddly enough, much like buddist monks. They won't take the bait 99/100 times. (Not saying none would fall, just very few... And I'd wager no true Jedi Master would fall)
Given I though pheonix lords based on melee were WS8... I'll lower the Jedi Master to 7, Jedi knight 6.
All Jedi love. The entire idea of the Light Side of the Force is based on love. It's what drives them to protect the meek from factions such as Sith, indeed it is only the TOR Jedi that refuse to take mates... which in the end blew up completely in their face and led to the order being slaughtered. The Jedi Order set up by the Skywalkers meanwhile suffered no such issues, and snipped in the bud any chance of characters like Anakin Skywalker popping up and leading the near extinction of the Jedi again.
But I really have to laugh if you think Jedi don't feel any love at all, in which case means their entire ideology just blew over your head. They're warrior monks. They hold no possessions so that nothing may ail them with self interests. That doesn't stop them from feeling the emotion, and it certainly doesn't stop them from having flings. Even Obi-Wan Kenobi, posterboy perfect Jedi, had several romantic flings throughout his life.
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
—The Jedi Code (Based on the meditations of Odan-Urr)
I'll just repost this. Jedi don't love, they care about others, brotherly love, etc. Friendship/kinship. They don't "love". Or at the least, the masters don't, and their code says they arent supposed to, so please, make sure you understand my statement before assuming things, and make sure you understand the Jedi code before stating what it is.
However, I've read little on what Skywalker set up after the empire collapsed... So if he changed things I'll withdraw my statement about not being supposed to " love".
Those weren't the original words. Also, the Skywalker Order only imploded thanks to a gigantic invasion of Sith Lords with a full army the likes of hadn't been seen since around a thousand years. And even then Cade Skywalker still annihilated the One Sith and shot Krayt into a star.
Yes, hundreds of centuries. Asurmen himself was a champion of the Eldar people before the Fall even.
But yes, that always pissed me off.
Hence why game mechanics are never great quantifiers or representation of the lore.
Similar to how in dark souls you can kill a god like being with a single strike of the thunder lance. it is there to be apart of the game mechanics everything has to fit that. If it doesn't then it is unplayable and is just apart of the background.
Would shatter point work against a daemon? Do they retain old wounds and the like from former battles?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the Jedi could flow walk ( i think thats the name) and learn the history/tactics of the 40k universe by witnessing it firsthand. Not really game changing but nifty nonetheless
DoomShakaLaka wrote: Would shatter point work against a daemon? Do they retain old wounds and the like from former battles?
No. They aren't corporeal and only Luke was able to use that ability if I remember correctly. Their wounds heal pretty quickly. And pain is something they are used to. They don't feel true pain till a pysker gets near or a pariah.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: Would shatter point work against a daemon? Do they retain old wounds and the like from former battles?
No. They aren't corporeal and only Luke was able to use that ability if I remember correctly. Their wounds heal pretty quickly. And pain is something they are used to. They don't feel true pain till a pysker gets near or a pariah.
* waves hand* " this isn't the universe you're looking for"
DoomShakaLaka wrote: Would shatter point work against a daemon? Do they retain old wounds and the like from former battles?
No. They aren't corporeal and only Luke was able to use that ability if I remember correctly. Their wounds heal pretty quickly. And pain is something they are used to. They don't feel true pain till a pysker gets near or a pariah.
* waves hand* " this isn't the universe you're looking for"
That... That won't work on a demon. They would be like "oh how cute." you know before boiling the jedi alive in blood.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: Would shatter point work against a daemon? Do they retain old wounds and the like from former battles?
No. They aren't corporeal and only Luke was able to use that ability if I remember correctly. Their wounds heal pretty quickly. And pain is something they are used to. They don't feel true pain till a pysker gets near or a pariah.
* waves hand* " this isn't the universe you're looking for"
I wouldn't call the Daemons "weak-minded". Man you really oughta watch the movies...
Automatically Appended Next Post: But If you want to argue it, weak minded could mean anyone without any training in using the force. Ergo, deamons fall under it.
In this thread it is sorta hard to discern from a joke or someone actually making a claim like that. Though I do see slaanesh cults happening with jabba the hut!
But If you want to argue it, weak minded could mean anyone without any training in using the force. Ergo, deamons fall under it.
Hahaha
Now thats funny. A Being that has lived millions of years somehow gets under the perssuasion of a jedi. And yet Queen Amadla is somehow uneffected. Seems legit.
Asherian Command wrote: They are both well trained, except the guardsmen have tanks and artillery while the Storm troopers lack that in spades.
40k might have some silly tank designs, but the AT-AT is even worse.
It doesn't even have the shields or the mobility that Titans can use as an excuse for their viability. Its just a slow, clunky, underpowered, undergunned transport that is the biggest possible target you could possible have. Titans are at least moderately fast and agile, and have shields.
But If you want to argue it, weak minded could mean anyone without any training in using the force. Ergo, deamons fall under it.
*Sign* All it would take is for you to leave it at "I kid", and I'd have let it slide...
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
More to the point, using a power of a similar function, human psykers in 40K can temporarily (the duration, however, could vary extremely widely in the fluff) take control of virtually all but the most admantium-willed individuals. Can Jedis do the same? Not according to the movies nor Kenobi himself.
Asherian Command wrote: They are both well trained, except the guardsmen have tanks and artillery while the Storm troopers lack that in spades.
40k might have some silly tank designs, but the AT-AT is even worse.
It doesn't even have the shields or the mobility that Titans can use as an excuse for their viability. Its just a slow, clunky, underpowered, undergunned transport that is the biggest possible target you could possible have. Titans are at least moderately fast and agile, and have shields.
The funny thing this is their transport is stupidly easy to see and is designed by a moron.
But If you want to argue it, weak minded could mean anyone without any training in using the force. Ergo, deamons fall under it.
*Sign* All it would take is for you to leave it at "I kid", and I'd have let it slide...
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
More to the point, using a power of a similar function, human psykers in 40K can temporarily (the duration, however, could vary extremely widely in the fluff) take control of virtually all but the most admantium-willed individuals. Can Jedis do the same? Not according to the movies nor Kenobi himself.
Lol. Quite true, I was never making a real claim just speaking for anyone that might try to use the ambiguity. (Which as has been stated even 40k people have done this thread)
I'd wager weak willed people would fall under low self control/discipline. Or just people with no goal/motivation?
Which brings up the question, are chaos beings/followers/cultist lacking in self control/discipline? I've read fluff stating yes and no.
Of course this is all subjective and has no real evidence behind either way. Just a little fun thought line I had.
Asherian Command wrote: They are both well trained, except the guardsmen have tanks and artillery while the Storm troopers lack that in spades.
40k might have some silly tank designs, but the AT-AT is even worse.
It doesn't even have the shields or the mobility that Titans can use as an excuse for their viability. Its just a slow, clunky, underpowered, undergunned transport that is the biggest possible target you could possible have. Titans are at least moderately fast and agile, and have shields.
The funny thing this is their transport is stupidly easy to see and is designed by a moron.
Titans and the like are even more absurd from a design standpoint. Obviously the walkers there have armor that is immune to most conventional weapons in SW because it is that strong/thick lol.
Asherian Command wrote: Now thats funny. A Being that has lived millions of years somehow gets under the perssuasion of a jedi. And yet Queen Amadla is somehow uneffected. Seems legit.
Perhaps, like 40k warp resistance/immunity, immunity to jedi mind control is a genetic thing. So some people in Star Wars have it, but presumably nobody in 40k has it since the force doesn't exist. And in that case it's entirely plausible that a demon, no matter how old, would be weak-minded and easily mind controlled by a jedi. After all, we seem to be assuming that nobody in Star Wars can resist warp corruption, so why assume that anyone in 40k can resist the force?
Titans and the like are even more absurd from a design standpoint. Obviously the walkers there have armor that is immune to most conventional weapons in SW because it is that strong/thick lol.
Not true as in the battlefront trailer a Y-wing can destroy it with an ion bomb.
Titans and the like are even more absurd from a design standpoint. Obviously the walkers there have armor that is immune to most conventional weapons in SW because it is that strong/thick lol.
Not true as in the battlefront trailer a Y-wing can destroy it with an ion bomb.
A Y-wing is a bomber IIRC, so that's not "conventional weaponry" I'd wager the AT-AT would be something like 14AV all around or more. (save the neck area)
However I was merely showing that, rule of cool > pragmatism in sci-fi settings like these.
Also, whoever said something about the slaanesh cult with the huts. That would be terrifyingly terrific.
Titans and the like are even more absurd from a design standpoint. Obviously the walkers there have armor that is immune to most conventional weapons in SW because it is that strong/thick lol.
Not true as in the battlefront trailer a Y-wing can destroy it with an ion bomb.
A Y-wing is a bomber IIRC, so that's not "conventional weaponry" I'd wager the AT-AT would be something like 14AV all around or more. (save the neck area)
However I was merely showing that, rule of cool > pragmatism in sci-fi settings like these.
Also, whoever said something about the slaanesh cult with the huts. That would be terrifyingly terrific.
Thank you I thought tof that.
The land raider is a better design than the at at.
No it isn't. The AT-AT should have terrible armor for its size and complexity and massive stability problems, but at least it can function in theory. The Land Raider, on the other hand, would instantly immobilize itself on anything but a high-quality paved road because of its inexcusably bad track design. Even the average parking lot speed bump is a terrifying obstacle for a Land Raider.
Going back to a few ideas a few pages ago about Jedi reflexs and precog.
In Episode 1 - Qui Gon Jin catches Jar Jars tongue in mid flight, during its inital acceleration to target. Assuming its anything like a frogs tongue its an action that takes 15/100 of a second to complete. Not only was the Jedi able to forsee the complete travel of the tongue, but reacted in time to catch it on the launch. Which means he forsaw, reacted, and moved in less than 8/100 of a second.
He also says that the only reason why Anikin can drive a pod is because he can sense the future. It may not be far into the future, but its enough to get a very fast pod in and around obstacle.
During the fight at the beginning of the movie, both the jedi were able to deflect all the blaster bolts from the destroyers back at them, the only reason it was a stale mate was because the blaster shots couldn't prenetrate their own shielding. Thats a lot of control in the fashion of both angle of impact and reflection from moving targets (though not moving very fast)
In Episode 2 during the bar scene while hunting the assassin, Obiwan sense and reacts to the presence of the assassin in which he knew nothing of what they looked like.
In addition in Episode 2 Anikin jumps out of a car knowing the exact path the assassin was going to travel probably before the guy even knew where he was going in the first place. He was able to see distance, speeder speed, fall distance, fall speed, and vector trajectory to land on his target. It also wasn't just a lucky guess as it would appear that he had done it multiple times given Obiwans reaction to him jumping out of the car.
In Episode 5 Luke has a vision of the future in which his friends on Bespin are threatened. While it wasnt a very clear picture for him, Yoda was able to tune into the exact same vision, see a little more, but who knows exactly how much he really did share from what he saw. This shows that Jedi can see the future as a collective as well, its not just individual glimpes and maybes.
And while its hard to show in film or story books in the old Star Wars RPG I used to play as a Jedi advances in level they can raise their battle focus ability, its a passive ability that requires no expenditure on their part. It raises their To Hit modifier and their defense modifier. Just by being there. If we translate that to 40K it would raise their WS, Toughness, and probably save just by personal growth and attunment in the force. So yeah, Masters could easily have higher stat values because the force passively augments them to super human levels. Levels that may take centuries to achieve by slogging through actual combat experience alone.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But If you want to argue it, weak minded could mean anyone without any training in using the force. Ergo, deamons fall under it.
Numerous species in Star Wars are outright immune to mind tricks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: Shouldn't the square-cube law instantly kill the AT-AT dead?
Not really. What's going to be worse for an AT-AT is its mass and inability for its legs to counter for any wobble in the transport.
Blizzard One sat on cliff
Blizzard One had a great fall
All the Sith Lord's AT-ST's and all the Sith Lord's Snowtroopers
Ashiraya wrote: Shouldn't the square-cube law instantly kill the AT-AT dead?
It would be a significant engineering challenge to overcome (just like it would be for 40k walkers), but it's not an impossible one if you have strong enough materials to build it.
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) which is treated as canon, using your logic, which wins this argument according to my whim. 
