All of Wh40k Vs All of starwars, Heres the scenario.
The imperium of man Has Recently launced an crusade into some newly discovered space, only to discover several habitable planets are filled with filthy xenos, heretics and traitors to the human race, The tau have an race untainted bye the imperium so they see an chance to expand their empire and spread the greater good. The ork's find the new race and see an chance of mass lootin,the tyranid scourge sees an opportunity to consume more biomass so an mysterious hive fleet appears,an necron fleet has been dispatched to claim more souls and ravage the new galaxys life, the worshippers of chaos undivided see an chance to add more to the slaughter and claim more souls for their dark gods, the eldar take notice to their old enimes the necrons and chaos so they jump in, and lastly the dark eldar jump in for some nasty fun and souls to feed off of. ........................................
Meanwhile the entire universe of star wars sets aside their petty differences to realize the greater threats so they temporarly join and amass all of their resources and decide to defend and counter attack the new threats faced upon them.
No. Just no. This sort of thing has been done to death.
The necessary numbers cannot be calculated for Warhammer due to the massive difference in fluff.
Chaos corrupts the comparatively libertine societies of Star Wars in quick order and civil strife leaves the Star Wars alliance weakened for the 40k Alliance to sweep aside.
Alternatively: The united, fully awakened Necrons solo all of Star Wars.
The SW galaxy is smaller than the Milky Way by orders of magnitude.
However, there is no Warp in SW, just as there is no Force in 40K. These are not one and the same thing. There needs to be established which setting this war is taking place in.
Also, what era of SW? Old Republic? New Sith Wars? Army of Light? NJO? Vong Invasion?
Psienesis wrote: The SW galaxy is smaller than the Milky Way by orders of magnitude.
However, there is no Warp in SW, just as there is no Force in 40K. These are not one and the same thing. There needs to be established which setting this war is taking place in.
Also, what era of SW? Old Republic? New Sith Wars? Army of Light? NJO? Vong Invasion?
The latest versions of both universes,somewhere near each galxy border, and no all 40k universes are not united, they are looking for their own agendas so this battle will be an utter free for all, however all factions of the imperium are united, and have no disputes.
Psienesis wrote: Then 40K takes it in a landslide, since the SW galaxy is *fethed* following the Vong invasion.
After Darth Vader was ass kicked a little, they found him worthy of service, and invited him to a random Space Marine chapter as a recruit.
End of story.
Psienesis wrote: The SW galaxy is smaller than the Milky Way by orders of magnitude.
However, there is no Warp in SW, just as there is no Force in 40K. These are not one and the same thing. There needs to be established which setting this war is taking place in.
Also, what era of SW? Old Republic? New Sith Wars? Army of Light? NJO? Vong Invasion?
The Milky Way is approximately 100,000 light years across. This gives us an area of roughly 7.85 x10^9 light years squared. The Star Wars Galaxy is 120,000 light years across, for an area of roughly 1.1304 x 10^10 light years squared, This means the Star Wars galaxy is almost 150% the size of the Milky Way. Additionally we have no idea how the Force works. It is possible it would still work in our galaxy.
The other problem is numbers. While we have no idea how fast Star Wars ships travel in hyperspace, the fact that ships repeatedly cross half the galaxy in a matter of hours (as demonstrated in A New Hope, The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones) requires speeds in the range of 10 million to 100 million times c. Meanwhile Warhammer 40K ships (if travelling in the Milky Way) travel at the speed of plot.
Singularity678 wrote: its not over done its fun, not to metion the starwars universe is very large,and some can even say could hold its own.
The Necrons at full throttle can go boxing with Metroid's Chozo and Halo's forerunners and hold their own and possibly even win.
Star Wars doesn't have that kind of Chutzpah.
Are you sure, as i said every one has their own agenda, if the necrons run into the imperium of man they will not team up, instead they would literaly attack each other,while star wars united would be stuck inbetween it all, actually if you think of it i think the tau would eventually join the star wars universe.
cox.dan2 wrote: I think it would be fun to watch a gunfight between Orks and Stormtroopers.
I bet the Orks have better aim.
Probably not, seeing as Stormtroopers have very good aim. You realize how hard it is to hit something the size of R2-D2 from 30 yards without aiming, right? Additionally does nobody watch the opening assault on the Tantive IV in A New Hope, where the Stormtroppers are slaughtering the rebels?
cox.dan2 wrote: I think it would be fun to watch a gunfight between Orks and Stormtroopers.
I bet the Orks have better aim.
Probably not, seeing as Stormtroopers have very good aim. You realize how hard it is to hit something the size of R2-D2 from 30 yards without aiming, right? Additionally does nobody watch the opening assault on the Tantive IV in A New Hope, where the Stormtroppers are slaughtering the rebels?
Rebel Fighters failed their morale check, because of Darth Vader
cox.dan2 wrote: I think it would be fun to watch a gunfight between Orks and Stormtroopers.
I bet the Orks have better aim.
Probably not, seeing as Stormtroopers have very good aim. You realize how hard it is to hit something the size of R2-D2 from 30 yards without aiming, right? Additionally does nobody watch the opening assault on the Tantive IV in A New Hope, where the Stormtroppers are slaughtering the rebels?
But wait what about inquisitorial storm troopers vs storm troopers of starwars.
Star Wars. The math in it is just so much higher. It would wipe the floor with 40k.
A light turbolaser puts out unimaginable more firepower than some of the heaviest of super heavy guns on 40k ships. It is fairly unimpressive armament by all accounts in the Star Wars universe. Something that even the tiny Corellian Corvette has several of. You know in A New Hope the ship the ISD is chasing in the opening scene? Yea that little ship could blow apart most of the ships in the Imperium solo and not even break a sweat.
Now imagine what an Imperial Star Destroy II would do. Or a Super Star Destroyer. No such ships of that firepower wouldn't be needed. Even the smaller Victory I class Star Destroyers would have its way with pretty much any Imperium ship.
The manufacturing output, speed, firepower, and the force all give the Star Wars galaxy an insane edge over the 40k one.
Gamgee wrote: Star Wars. The math in it is just so much higher. It would wipe the floor with 40k.
A light turbolaser puts out unimaginable more firepower than some of the heaviest of super heavy guns on 40k ships. It is fairly unimpressive armament by all accounts in the Star Wars universe. Something that even the tiny Corellian Corvette has several of. You know in A New Hope the ship the ISD is chasing in the opening scene? Yea that little ship could blow apart most of the ships in the Imperium solo and not even break a sweat.
Now imagine what an Imperial Star Destroy II would do. Or a Super Star Destroyer. No such ships of that firepower wouldn't be needed. Even the smaller Victory I class Star Destroyers would have its way with pretty much any Imperium ship.
The manufacturing output, speed, firepower, and the force all give the Star Wars galaxy an insane edge over the 40k one.
Oh boy "calcs".
Is this from the Incredible Cross Sections which tries to have me believe that the acclamator's blasters which show less firepower than a mortar round in the Clone Wars cartoon (which is canon), are supposed to have the firepower rating of 200 gigatons?
All the wankery from the EU was dropped and all that's left are starships that aren't considerably more impressive than supersized WW2 era battleships in space.
Gamgee wrote: Star Wars. The math in it is just so much higher. It would wipe the floor with 40k.
A light turbolaser puts out unimaginable more firepower than some of the heaviest of super heavy guns on 40k ships. It is fairly unimpressive armament by all accounts in the Star Wars universe. Something that even the tiny Corellian Corvette has several of. You know in A New Hope the ship the ISD is chasing in the opening scene? Yea that little ship could blow apart most of the ships in the Imperium solo and not even break a sweat.
Now imagine what an Imperial Star Destroy II would do. Or a Super Star Destroyer. No such ships of that firepower wouldn't be needed. Even the smaller Victory I class Star Destroyers would have its way with pretty much any Imperium ship.
" im afraid you dont understand, i didnt just say the imperium, it's all races of 40k in an free for all to expand their empires or for personal gain,not to mention the imperium travels in huge numbers, as do the orks all though the 40k universe would probaly tear each other an new one as they all hate each other and are at constant war.
Gamgee, the problem with your statement, is that the power output of Warmhammer weapons is unknown. When a Lasgun can simultaneously burn through flesh but is stopped by a piece of paper (hyperbole there) it is impossible to calculate the actual power.
Of course the last time I looked it was stated that the lasguns power output was something like 19 Megathules (whatever those are).
Happyjew wrote: Gamgee, the problem with your statement, is that the power output of Warmhammer weapons is unknown. When a Lasgun can simultaneously burn through flesh but is stopped by a piece of paper (hyperbole there) it is impossible to calculate the actual power.
Of course the last time I looked it was stated that the lasguns power output was something like 19 Megathules (whatever those are).[/quote
Well to answer that it depends,the lasgun is an complex weapon that is used in many ways, it just depends on its fireing setting, for example if the lasgun can be used to stun and subdue targets or it can be usedm to blow holes through concrete.They can also fireautomatic or semi however the more powerful the setting the more ammo it uses.
Verviedi wrote: 40k... No... The fething TAU godstomp the entire SW Galaxy (assuming original series)
Tau? LoL, Just gimme a random IG regiment and I take out the Republic in couple of Months
I love the guard and all, but im not sure one guard regiment is not enough,this is not the imperium vs my little pony. As for the tau they would probaly have peace talks and gain tons of auxilary in both human and alien form.
Verviedi wrote: 40k... No... The fething TAU godstomp the entire SW Galaxy (assuming original series)
Tau? LoL, Just gimme a random IG regiment and I take out the Republic in couple of Months
Harldly. the Old Sith Empire, Mandalorians, Galactic Empire, and Fel Empire could all solo the entire IoM by themselves.
The Tau would be slaughtered in a fight with any faction star wars presents.
If people want to claim EU doesn't count then you cannot claim that the exaggerated power levels of the 40k levels exist considering 40k doesn't even have a 'canon'.
In the entire SW galaxy, there are only ~20 million planets that developed sentient life. Some of those planets are like Tattooine and Ryloth, both of which are Very Gakky, but for different reasons... neither of them offer anything that can support a total war effort.
The IoM, alone, has ~1 million worlds, give or take. The Orks hold massively more than this. There's an unknown number of Tomb Worlds. Chaos has a literally-inexhaustible supply of Daemons. Tyranids out-populate every other faction in this war, on both sides, combined. When your two-dozen or so advance fleets stretch up to 75,000 light-years back to the edge of the galactic disc, with the bulk of your troops yet to arrive behind them, nothing opposes your war of numbers, not even close.
Never mind the fact that the approach of a Hive Fleet to a planet causes massive tectonic disruptions that act as a "softening up" of its defenses before the Fleet arrives. In a settings a xeno-rich as SW, no one would bat an eye at Genestealers. Or Hrud, for that matter.
The Tantive IV, incidentally, was equipped with a pair of dual turbolasers and a quartet of single turbolasers. It was not, in any way, an actual threat to the Devastator (which carried roughly 10 times the number of turbolasers, and 60 Ion Cannons on top of that), as the Tantive IV could not hope to penetrate the multiple banks of deflector shields on the Star Destroyer.
Last but not least? There's far more Psykers in 40K than there are Force Sensitives in SW. And of those Force Sensitives, only a relatively small percentage are combat-oriented, compared to the Psykers in use by the IG and the Space Marines.
40K is also in greater possession of planet-destroying weapons than the SW universe currently is.
Psienesis wrote: In the entire SW galaxy, there are only ~20 million planets that developed sentient life. Some of those planets are like Tattooine and Ryloth, both of which are Very Gakky, but for different reasons... neither of them offer anything that can support a total war effort.
The IoM, alone, has ~1 million worlds, give or take. The Orks hold massively more than this. There's an unknown number of Tomb Worlds. Chaos has a literally-inexhaustible supply of Daemons. Tyranids out-populate every other faction in this war, on both sides, combined. When your two-dozen or so advance fleets stretch up to 75,000 light-years back to the edge of the galactic disc, with the bulk of your troops yet to arrive behind them, nothing opposes your war of numbers, not even close.
Never mind the fact that the approach of a Hive Fleet to a planet causes massive tectonic disruptions that act as a "softening up" of its defenses before the Fleet arrives. In a settings a xeno-rich as SW, no one would bat an eye at Genestealers. Or Hrud, for that matter.
The Tantive IV, incidentally, was equipped with a pair of dual turbolasers and a quartet of single turbolasers. It was not, in any way, an actual threat to the Devastator (which carried roughly 10 times the number of turbolasers, and 60 Ion Cannons on top of that), as the Tantive IV could not hope to penetrate the multiple banks of deflector shields on the Star Destroyer.
Last but not least? There's far more Psykers in 40K than there are Force Sensitives in SW. And of those Force Sensitives, only a relatively small percentage are combat-oriented, compared to the Psykers in use by the IG and the Space Marines.
40K is also in greater possession of planet-destroying weapons than the SW universe currently is.
Verviedi wrote: 40k... No... The fething TAU godstomp the entire SW Galaxy (assuming original series)
Tau? LoL, Just gimme a random IG regiment and I take out the Republic in couple of Months
I love the guard and all, but im not sure one guard regiment is not enough,this is not the imperium vs my little pony. As for the tau they would probaly have peace talks and gain tons of auxilary in both human and alien form.
Yep, I agree. Taking down the Republic or the Empire will take more than just a couple of regiments, but. But in terms of Technology I Think Tau can really give SW galaxy one hell of a fight. And also, let's don't forget that according to SWEU they have some pretty bad ass stuff inviding from foreign galaxy - the Yuuzhan Vong. They remind me of humanoid genestealers.
Verviedi wrote: 40k... No... The fething TAU godstomp the entire SW Galaxy (assuming original series)
Tau? LoL, Just gimme a random IG regiment and I take out the Republic in couple of Months
Harldly. the Old Sith Empire, Mandalorians, Galactic Empire, and Fel Empire could all solo the entire IoM by themselves.
The Tau would be slaughtered in a fight with any faction star wars presents.
If people want to claim EU doesn't count then you cannot claim that the exaggerated power levels of the 40k levels exist considering 40k doesn't even have a 'canon'.
In short. No gimping.
Except that Disney itself said that the EU doesn't count.
And there is absolutely not a single way you can reconcile the incredible cross section's figures with anything that happens.
Every time Star Wars is put on a visual medium, we see ships broadsiding each other with barrages that wouldn't impress an iowa class battleship. There's none of this "teratunz!" wankery.
Then theres the avatar of kain or demons of chaos that the forces of chaos and eldar bring onto the field. Also remember the necrons have the essence of the night bringer and the sob have the living saint.
The Vong really kind of sucked though, they only did as well as they did because of the disruption in the New Republic and the fact they'd been through so many crippling wars recently.
A united Necron Empire would wipe the floor with the New Republic. Remember that Necron ships have combat FTL and pinpoint turning capability. They regenerate damage faster than living tissue heals. Their main guns disintegrate the target outright and will flat-out ignore deflector shields because of the weapon's mechanics.
As for not knowing how the Force works: You need a certain midichlorian count to access the universal energy field :p
Verviedi wrote: 40k... No... The fething TAU godstomp the entire SW Galaxy (assuming original series)
Tau? LoL, Just gimme a random IG regiment and I take out the Republic in couple of Months
Harldly. the Old Sith Empire, Mandalorians, Galactic Empire, and Fel Empire could all solo the entire IoM by themselves.
The Tau would be slaughtered in a fight with any faction star wars presents.
If people want to claim EU doesn't count then you cannot claim that the exaggerated power levels of the 40k levels exist considering 40k doesn't even have a 'canon'.
In short. No gimping.
Except that Disney itself said that the EU doesn't count.
And there is absolutely not a single way you can reconcile the incredible cross section's figures with anything that happens.
Every time Star Wars is put on a visual medium, we see ships broadsiding each other with barrages that wouldn't impress an iowa class battleship. There's none of this "teratunz!" wankery.
Yet GW also maintains a non-canon policy as well. So I assume that Star Wars wins since the entire 40k universe doesn't exist?
The barrages you mentioned do indeed pack that much energy. Surely you wouldn't deny the existing fluff because it doesn't look like it? The lack of results is mainly due to high efficiency of shielding and armor on the ships.
Talys wrote: 40k. The death star, most powerful platform of the Empire, was something special. But eldar blew up planets for fun, at a whim. Hell, stars.
Indeed and is it not funny that the death star was destoyed with one hit because they decided to leave the most vital part's ungarded.
Talys wrote: 40k. The death star, most powerful platform of the Empire, was something special. But eldar blew up planets for fun, at a whim. Hell, stars.
I think that just one of those is enuff to deal with the Death Star:
Verviedi wrote: 40k... No... The fething TAU godstomp the entire SW Galaxy (assuming original series)
Tau? LoL, Just gimme a random IG regiment and I take out the Republic in couple of Months
Harldly. the Old Sith Empire, Mandalorians, Galactic Empire, and Fel Empire could all solo the entire IoM by themselves.
The Tau would be slaughtered in a fight with any faction star wars presents.
If people want to claim EU doesn't count then you cannot claim that the exaggerated power levels of the 40k levels exist considering 40k doesn't even have a 'canon'.
In short. No gimping.
Except that Disney itself said that the EU doesn't count.
And there is absolutely not a single way you can reconcile the incredible cross section's figures with anything that happens.
Every time Star Wars is put on a visual medium, we see ships broadsiding each other with barrages that wouldn't impress an iowa class battleship. There's none of this "teratunz!" wankery.
Yet GW also maintains a non-canon policy as well. So I assume that Star Wars wins since the entire 40k universe doesn't exist?
The barrages you mentioned do indeed pack that much energy. Surely you wouldn't deny the existing fluff because it doesn't look like it? The lack of results is mainly due to high efficiency of shielding and armor on the ships.
GW's policy is that "canon is anything you want it to be, it's not our job to curate it".
Groxgak. Barring mystical force concentration energy doesn't just disappear like that. It radiates outwards in various directions. If the ICS was telling the truth, the battle of coruscant would have vaporized all life on the planet from nothing more than the excess radiant heat. And it wouldn't have looked like an ancient era naval battle with hundreds of ships in a tightly constrained clusterfeth, it would look like a whited out constantly mess.
Also; according to the ICS, these missiles are 100 kiloton detonations.
Verviedi wrote: 40k... No... The fething TAU godstomp the entire SW Galaxy (assuming original series)
Tau? LoL, Just gimme a random IG regiment and I take out the Republic in couple of Months
Harldly. the Old Sith Empire, Mandalorians, Galactic Empire, and Fel Empire could all solo the entire IoM by themselves.
The Tau would be slaughtered in a fight with any faction star wars presents.
If people want to claim EU doesn't count then you cannot claim that the exaggerated power levels of the 40k levels exist considering 40k doesn't even have a 'canon'.
In short. No gimping.
Except that Disney itself said that the EU doesn't count.
And there is absolutely not a single way you can reconcile the incredible cross section's figures with anything that happens.
Every time Star Wars is put on a visual medium, we see ships broadsiding each other with barrages that wouldn't impress an iowa class battleship. There's none of this "teratunz!" wankery.
Yet GW also maintains a non-canon policy as well. So I assume that Star Wars wins since the entire 40k universe doesn't exist?
The barrages you mentioned do indeed pack that much energy. Surely you wouldn't deny the existing fluff because it doesn't look like it? The lack of results is mainly due to high efficiency of shielding and armor on the ships.
GW's policy is that "canon is anything you want it to be, it's not our job to curate it".
Groxgak. Barring mystical force concentration energy doesn't just disappear like that. It radiates outwards in various directions. If the ICS was telling the truth, the battle of coruscant would have vaporized all life on the planet from nothing more than the excess radiant heat. And it wouldn't have looked like an ancient era naval battle with hundreds of ships in a tightly constrained clusterfeth, it would look like a whited out constantly mess.
Also; according to the ICS, these missiles are 100 kiloton detonations.
100 kilotons of poprocks maybe.
Listen if you want to ignore the officially cqnon power output of SW weapons that's your choice.
GW saying 'everything is canon' is the same as saying nothing is canon at all since we have conflicting facts on all sides.
Verviedi wrote: 40k... No... The fething TAU godstomp the entire SW Galaxy (assuming original series)
Tau? LoL, Just gimme a random IG regiment and I take out the Republic in couple of Months
Harldly. the Old Sith Empire, Mandalorians, Galactic Empire, and Fel Empire could all solo the entire IoM by themselves.
The Tau would be slaughtered in a fight with any faction star wars presents.
If people want to claim EU doesn't count then you cannot claim that the exaggerated power levels of the 40k levels exist considering 40k doesn't even have a 'canon'.
In short. No gimping.
Except that Disney itself said that the EU doesn't count.
And there is absolutely not a single way you can reconcile the incredible cross section's figures with anything that happens.
Every time Star Wars is put on a visual medium, we see ships broadsiding each other with barrages that wouldn't impress an iowa class battleship. There's none of this "teratunz!" wankery.
Yet GW also maintains a non-canon policy as well. So I assume that Star Wars wins since the entire 40k universe doesn't exist?
The barrages you mentioned do indeed pack that much energy. Surely you wouldn't deny the existing fluff because it doesn't look like it? The lack of results is mainly due to high efficiency of shielding and armor on the ships.
GW's policy is that "canon is anything you want it to be, it's not our job to curate it".
Groxgak. Barring mystical force concentration energy doesn't just disappear like that. It radiates outwards in various directions. If the ICS was telling the truth, the battle of coruscant would have vaporized all life on the planet from nothing more than the excess radiant heat. And it wouldn't have looked like an ancient era naval battle with hundreds of ships in a tightly constrained clusterfeth, it would look like a whited out constantly mess.
Also; according to the ICS, these missiles are 100 kiloton detonations.
100 kilotons of poprocks maybe.
Listen if you want to ignore the officially cqnon power output of SW weapons that's your choice.
GW saying 'everything is canon' is the same as saying nothing is canon at all since we have conflicting facts on all sides.
It was only ever C canon at most, and is now non-canon.
The c-list canon offers numbers that made the story blatantly not work and also contradicts the visuals shown in the movies and the clone wars and rebel cartoons (which are higher canon) unless the entire story was the fever dream of a dying Anakin skywalker as a crashed pod-racer blew up all of Mos Eisley. Ergo, it is wrong and is to be ignored.
Actually a thought. Since the whole mitichlorians thing is canon (stupid as it is)...wouldn't that mean that Tyranids would assimilate them? Force-sensitive Nids!
Got to give it to the 40k forces if only for the potential for Exterminatus. Star Wars factions have been known to glass planets given enough time, but a well-stocked battle barge does it in a single salvo. Star Wars ships can be anywhere at any time though, so provided they had enough intel, teams of assassins/demolitionists could probably wreck most priority targets without a problem. That said, a lack of intel regarding safe hyperspace routes in the Imperium would make it too dangerous to move FTL for the Star Wars guys.
On the ground, I'm giving the advantage to the 40k guys. More numbers. Bigger explosions. Jedi are among the scariest things the SW forces can muster, and they're basically just reliable mostly telekinetic psykers with plasma swords. Which is impressive and all, but I'm pretty sure any given faction in 40k can deal with a S7 Ap 2 melee weapon and a guy with some divination buffs up.
I think the 40k guys would eat/enslave planets at their leisure with the only real problems being guerilla strikes made by the SW guys on key locations (assuming they can get their FTL to work). A given Star Wars personal fighter ship can be used to zip around the galaxy in no time at all, and it has the power to blow up some pretty large ships given enough time and ammo. I'm also pretty sure 40k ship weapons are cumbersome enough to have trouble hitting one of them. So minor, annoying advantage to SW in space, but they lack the oomph to do any real damage on the ground. Look at a given tank from the SW animated cartoon. Now remember that orbital strikes d-cannons, and eldritch storms are a thing in 40k. And if that doesn't do it for you, remember the cyclone missiles. Or the glass plague. Or that psychic plague that travels through screams.
The one and only suncrusher? Wasn't that destroyed by sending it flying into a black hole? Something that a couple of 40k factions seem to be able to contain if not spontaneously create?
Yes, it would undoubtedly be a giant pain in the ass for the likes of the Imperium, Orks, Tau, etc. But I'm fairly certain that Necrons, Eldar - maybe just dark but inclined to say nigh all, and Chaos would have little problem in the way of obliterating such a craft.
Star Wars has better defensive capabilities. Shields that protect cities, moons, and planets are shown to be nothing special in the SW movies and books. These include the shields around the first Death Star, which prevents large ships from approaching. The shield they were constructing around Hoth, which would have stopped meteor showers and landing parties. The shields around the second Death Star and Endor, which fighters were described as crashing against. Finally there were those shields used by the Gungans which could stop cannon laser fire.
In 40K, void shields are only given to the most important vehicles and personal shields are relics only given to SM veterans.
Not sure if it would change anything but it is something to consider.
the Signless wrote: Star Wars has better defensive capabilities. Shields that protect cities, moons, and planets are shown to be nothing special in the SW movies and books. These include the shields around the first Death Star, which prevents large ships from approaching. The shield they were constructing around Hoth, which would have stopped meteor showers and landing parties. The shields around the second Death Star and Endor, which fighters were described as crashing against. Finally there were those shields used by the Gungans which could stop cannon laser fire.
In 40K, void shields are only given to the most important vehicles and personal shields are relics only given to SM veterans.
Not sure if it would change anything but it is something to consider.
As in SW on SW fights, those shields would probably be more of a speedbump than anything though. You can literally walk right through a lot of those bigger shields (if not all of them). Every faction has some infiltrator types that won't have a problem dismantling those shields.
My interest was piqued on something, so I decided to look up the relative size of every army. This is quick and dirty research, so it lacks some detail, but I think it is telling enough to talk about the differences in scale.
The Imperial army has ~20 sector armies as its largest level of organization. Each sector army is composed of 262,144-1,572,864 troopers, creating a standing ground pounding force of 5,242,880 - 31,457,280 men.
The Grand Army of the Republic, the clone army, is around 3,000,000 I think. The reading is a little unclear on the exact count.
I could not find any accurate numbers on the Rebel Alliance army.
The biggest army though (if we're counting everything) is the Droid Separatist army, and this starts to run into a vague "hundreds of millions".
Those are big armies to be sure. But the Imperial Guard alone runs into the billions. The biggest threat in terms of numbers would be the Droid army, and I think in an army-vs-army fight, it could be a close run thing. But the Guard would do what the Guard always does, drown the enemy in numbers and simply out-quantity them.
Singularity678 wrote: its not over done its fun, not to metion the starwars universe is very large,and some can even say could hold its own.
The Necrons at full throttle can go boxing with Metroid's Chozo and Halo's forerunners and hold their own and possibly even win.
Star Wars doesn't have that kind of Chutzpah.
Are you sure, as i said every one has their own agenda, if the necrons run into the imperium of man they will not team up, instead they would literaly attack each other,while star wars united would be stuck inbetween it all, actually if you think of it i think the tau would eventually join the star wars universe.
Every 40k faction would beat 7 shades of gak out of the entire SW galaxy. Its full of soft squeemish people who can't stand violence in any form.
Nids win. No force in SW is capable of the levels of exterminatus needed to curtail the Nid hive fleets. No planet in SW has the orbital or planetary defenses needed to stop a invasion. The sheer amount of wide spread biomass devoured will vastly swell the hive fleets numbers. The rest of 40k is fethed by the galaxy bolstered fleet.
Also, the hive fleet would devourer force sensitives, including the mediclorines (Sp?) which would be adapted to the fleet and you would end up with force sensitive nids. Done and done.
I will throw my vote for 40k as always in these discussions.
But I will refrain from bringing up cold hard facts of either end of the conflict as they will be ignored by fans of both universes. Regardless of which universe the facts would support.
I think those non existent Alpha Legionnaires would screw the SW universe over so hard, what with all of the galactic peace always being held together by tiny threads. Not to mention what happens when you really get the depraved chaos stuff in on it.
You have to remember though, if the fight happens outside the Milky Way, there may not be a Warp for the Warhammer ships to travel through. Since most of the key planets are towards the center of the Star Wars galaxy, anything that cannot travel faster than 1.1c, will be taking 50,000+ years to reach there.
Happyjew wrote: You have to remember though, if the fight happens outside the Milky Way, there may not be a Warp for the Warhammer ships to travel through. Since most of the key planets are towards the center of the Star Wars galaxy, anything that cannot travel faster than 1.1c, will be taking 50,000+ years to reach there.
Similarly, Star Wars ships cannot travel without pre-established hyperspace routes (these tend to be thousands of years old) or else they have this habit of bumping into the mass shadow of a black hole or a planet or really anything of substantial size and going kersplat enroute.
6 months to build a single ISD II from start to finish in a dry dock. The space docks in lore are represented as building dozens of ISD II's at any given time at a single dock area. There are countless untold planets given to producing ISD II's.
Where as the Imperium of man can never build anything new except in a hundred years or more.
So not only can the ISD II's cross the galaxy in days or weeks at most but they can be built and replenished at an astonishing rate. Not to mention they out power any ship the Imperium could hope to send against them.
I won't even waste my time getting into the various super ships and weapons Emperor Palpatine was working on. He was even working on a vessel so large it would be the spearhead of a fleet to conquer another galaxy.
Gamgee wrote: 6 months to build a single ISD II from start to finish in a dry dock. The space docks in lore are represented as building dozens of ISD II's at any given time at a single dock area. There are countless untold planets given to producing ISD II's.
Where as the Imperium of man can never build anything new except in a hundred years or more.
So not only can the ISD II's cross the galaxy in days or weeks at most but they can be built and replenished at an astonishing rate. Not to mention they out power any ship the Imperium could hope to send against them.
I won't even waste my time getting into the various super ships and weapons Emperor Palpatine was working on. He was even working on a vessel so large it would be the spearhead of a fleet to conquer another galaxy.
The ENTIRE 40k galaxy is fethed.
Browsing spacebattles, the consensus there is that the Necrons run over Star Wars like a speed bump with about the same speed Halo's Forerunners would (which is; "The nations of Star Wars die as fast as the Necrons can reach them).
Also, Star Wars is a libertine society with permissive attitudes towards freedom of religion and action. Chaos loves these kinds of societies and tends to tear them down very quickly when they find that their souls are tasty enough to be worth eating.
Ratius wrote: What about the Necron World Engine? That was pretty hardcore.
Starforge was gaking out around 6+ Sith Interdictor Cruisers in the KOTOR timeline in a few minutes. So triple that for the ISD II's because they are bigger ships from a more modern time of SW. I'm talking fully loaded and equipped cruisers to.
Six Star Destroyers II in about 10 minutes. We'll say. Since they are about triple the size of the mentioned cruisers.
That's 60 ISD II's in a minute. 3600 ISD II's in an hour. 86400 in a day. 604800 in a week. 2419200 in a month. 14515200 in half a year. 29,030,400 in a year. It could also at the same time keep pace with producing droids internally to be used as crew for these vessels. Each one has 20 AT-AT and 72 Tie Fighters. The Emperor was known to love blasting planets to glass if they didn't fall in line.
The Imperium can't possibly hope to match that kind of output. It simply can't. The entire 40k universe. Necrons included would be hard pressed to match its output.
Ratius wrote: What about the Necron World Engine? That was pretty hardcore.
Starforge was gaking out around 6+ Sith Interdictor Cruisers in the KOTOR timeline in a few minutes. So triple that for the ISD II's because they are bigger ships from a more modern time of SW. I'm talking fully loaded and equipped cruisers to.
So a bunch of warships with the demonstrated firepower of WW2 era battleships you mean? Because every visually depicted figure of firepower puts it at "world war two battleships in space".
Similarly, Star Wars is incredibly stagnant in technology. There has been precious little concrete improvement in technology from the Old Republic era to the Original trilogy era, with all advancements being incremental at best and nothing revolutionary being discovered.
Given what is actually shown and not what the ICS spanks to, the United Necrons bulldoze through the entire galaxy and never even notice it.
The War in Heaven era Necrons don't even slow down appreciably as they tear apart whole solar systems with casual ease and deploy weapons that can shake the very universe itself to its core.
The forces in the star wars universe enjoy superior technology. However those in 40k have more brute force.
It's a similar conclusion when you compare the forces of the Imperium to the Tau or Eldar. Both alien races enjoy superior targeting systems, mobility, stealth systems and firepower. The imperium evens up their shortfallings with crude but effective approaches like metres of armour plating and brutal massed firepower. In essence its brute force vs finesse.
thegreatchimp wrote: The forces in the star wars universe enjoy superior technology. However those in 40k have more brute force.
It's a similar conclusion when you compare the forces of the Imperium to the Tau or Eldar. Both alien races enjoy superior targeting systems, mobility, stealth systems and firepower. The imperium evens up their shortfallings with crude but effective approaches like metres of armour plating and brutal massed firepower. In essence its brute force vs finesse.
With the presence of the Necrons, Eldar, Dark age of Technology humanity and so on, I doubt star wars has any advantage in technology.
The Necrons can easily match the technology of the Celestials in Star Wars with things like the Celestial Orrery or fething Time Travel. And the Celestials are like; unknowable godlike figures in Star Wars whose motives and methods no one in the Star Wars setting can even comprehend.
Ratius wrote: What about the Necron World Engine? That was pretty hardcore.
Starforge was gaking out around 6+ Sith Interdictor Cruisers in the KOTOR timeline in a few minutes. So triple that for the ISD II's because they are bigger ships from a more modern time of SW. I'm talking fully loaded and equipped cruisers to.
Yes but most battle is fough on ground, and once the imperiel guard land on an planet they never let go unless theres something on the planet that is causing it to litrally tear apart.
Bobthehero wrote: Star Wars can blow up solar systems with a single fighter-sized ship that's tougher than a planet, make that of what you will.
What weapon is this?
The Suncrusher. Its armour survived a glancing blow from a Death Star laser, and more tellingly allowed it to survive using its weapon: the ability to force nearby stars to instantly go supernova.
It was a one-of-a-kind weapon though - Seeing as 'crons can mass produce them, well...
Bobthehero wrote: Star Wars can blow up solar systems with a single fighter-sized ship that's tougher than a planet, make that of what you will.
What weapon is this?
The Suncrusher. Its armour survived a glancing blow from a Death Star laser, and more tellingly allowed it to survive using its weapon: the ability to force nearby stars to instantly go supernova.
It was a one-of-a-kind weapon though - Seeing as 'crons can mass produce them, well...
It was also made out of literally the rarest materials in the galaxy FFA and was considered freakishly expensive to the point of being folly to try to make again.
(It was also emblematic of all the worst of the EU; people trying to one up the movies with increasingly stupid and contrived superweapons and characters)
It gets to the point of "why the feth did the Empire even bother with the death star when they have all this nonsensical insanity?" It really just felt like the whole post-ROTJ EU was dedicated to making all the effort expended in the OT feel like a huge waste of time. "Yay we beat the empire, except no the war's just really beginning!" Among a huge conga-line of ridiculous things that makes me glad that Disney flushed the whole thing down the drain.
Kain wrote: Also I'm going to go ahead and label Gamgee a coward until he stops dodging my points and answers them.
I'm calling you out broski.
You have to provide a source for me to refute. That's how it works. Simply making a point is just a pissing contest. No my dick is longer say I. No my dick is longer say you. And so on and so forth until someone antes up and starts linking. So sure.
Edit
Or if you would rather I could just call all of your sources non-canon and be done with it. Since GW doesn't have a "canon" either. In the absence of any sort of canon on either side all we can do is go with the numbers we have.
Kain wrote: Also I'm going to go ahead and label Gamgee a coward until he stops dodging my points and answers them.
I'm calling you out broski.
You have to provide a source for me to refute. That's how it works. Simply making a point is just a pissing contest. No my dick is longer say I. No my dick is longer say you. And so on and so forth until someone antes up and starts linking. So sure.
Sooo you get to make a bunch of claims without backing them up and then duck behind a site relying on outdated and invalidated canon, but I have to slog through Micheal Wong's wankery again?
No bro you were making the positive claims that go against Star Wars' current canon.
Happyjew wrote: You have to remember though, if the fight happens outside the Milky Way, there may not be a Warp for the Warhammer ships to travel through. Since most of the key planets are towards the center of the Star Wars galaxy, anything that cannot travel faster than 1.1c, will be taking 50,000+ years to reach there.
Similarly, Star Wars ships cannot travel without pre-established hyperspace routes (these tend to be thousands of years old) or else they have this habit of bumping into the mass shadow of a black hole or a planet or really anything of substantial size and going kersplat enroute.
It's not that hard. I mean with the exception of one region of space, Star Wars had their galaxy mapped out pretty early on. To determine routes in the Milky Way, it would be a simple matter of launching thousands of hyper-space equipped probes to map the galaxy. Even then, on the off-chance a ship traveling through hyperspace does bounce to close to a super-nova, the safeties kick in and drag the ship out of hyperspace.
Bobthehero wrote: Star Wars can blow up solar systems with a single fighter-sized ship that's tougher than a planet, make that of what you will.
What weapon is this?
The Suncrusher. Its armour survived a glancing blow from a Death Star laser, and more tellingly allowed it to survive using its weapon: the ability to force nearby stars to instantly go supernova.
It was a one-of-a-kind weapon though - Seeing as 'crons can mass produce them, well...
Oh, that was a space station that fired a torpedo that had the capability of entering hyperspace to traverse the cosmos to the targeted system. Said torpedoes were also heavily-shielded and fast, so once in-system were nigh-unstoppable.
The Sun-Crusher was also devoured by the black holes of the Maw, and so no longer exists.
I was looking for a "fighter-sized ship" with this capability, based on the post mentioning it.
Bobthehero wrote: Star Wars can blow up solar systems with a single fighter-sized ship that's tougher than a planet, make that of what you will.
What weapon is this?
The Suncrusher. Its armour survived a glancing blow from a Death Star laser, and more tellingly allowed it to survive using its weapon: the ability to force nearby stars to instantly go supernova.
It was a one-of-a-kind weapon though - Seeing as 'crons can mass produce them, well...
Oh, that was a space station that fired a torpedo that had the capability of entering hyperspace to traverse the cosmos to the targeted system. Said torpedoes were also heavily-shielded and fast, so once in-system were nigh-unstoppable.
The Sun-Crusher was also devoured by the black holes of the Maw, and so no longer exists.
I was looking for a "fighter-sized ship" with this capability, based on the post mentioning it.
You're mixing up your phallic symbols superweapons.
You're describing the galaxy gun (which attacked planets and was shaped like a giant space penis), the suncrusher was fighter sized.
Kain wrote: Also I'm going to go ahead and label Gamgee a coward until he stops dodging my points and answers them.
I'm calling you out broski.
You have to provide a source for me to refute. That's how it works. Simply making a point is just a pissing contest. No my dick is longer say I. No my dick is longer say you. And so on and so forth until someone antes up and starts linking. So sure.
Sooo you get to make a bunch of claims without backing them up and then duck behind a site relying on outdated and invalidated canon, but I have to slog through Micheal Wong's wankery again?
No bro you were making the positive claims that go against Star Wars' current canon.
So the movies are no longer considered canon? I mean maybe I missed it (on a brief perusal) but it appeared to me that the linked article was using pretty much just the movies.
Kain wrote: Also I'm going to go ahead and label Gamgee a coward until he stops dodging my points and answers them.
I'm calling you out broski.
You have to provide a source for me to refute. That's how it works. Simply making a point is just a pissing contest. No my dick is longer say I. No my dick is longer say you. And so on and so forth until someone antes up and starts linking. So sure.
Sooo you get to make a bunch of claims without backing them up and then duck behind a site relying on outdated and invalidated canon, but I have to slog through Micheal Wong's wankery again?
No bro you were making the positive claims that go against Star Wars' current canon.
So the movies are no longer considered canon? I mean maybe I missed it (on a brief perusal) but it appeared to me that the linked article was using pretty much just the movies.
Most of its references to star wars industrial capacity (including things like duplicator droids) are based on EU material.
The only solid thing is the Death Star and I'm fairly strongly convinced that's a case of "no sense of scale" rather than any solid indication of industrial capacity.
Particularly as its entirely incongruous with a setting where 3,000,000 unaugmented clones were considered a military worthy of fighting a galactic scale war.
Kain wrote: Also I'm going to go ahead and label Gamgee a coward until he stops dodging my points and answers them.
I'm calling you out broski.
You have to provide a source for me to refute. That's how it works. Simply making a point is just a pissing contest. No my dick is longer say I. No my dick is longer say you. And so on and so forth until someone antes up and starts linking. So sure.
Sooo you get to make a bunch of claims without backing them up and then duck behind a site relying on outdated and invalidated canon, but I have to slog through Micheal Wong's wankery again?
No bro you were making the positive claims that go against Star Wars' current canon.
So the movies are no longer considered canon? I mean maybe I missed it (on a brief perusal) but it appeared to me that the linked article was using pretty much just the movies.
Most of its references to star wars industrial capacity (including things like duplicator droids) are based on EU material.
The only solid thing is the Death Star and I'm fairly strongly convinced that's a case of "no sense of scale" rather than any solid indication of industrial capacity.
Particularly as its entirely incongruous with a setting where 3,000,000 unaugmented clones were considered a military worthy of fighting a galactic scale war.
The topic says ALL of Star Wars. Not the parts of Star Wars you don't want. So too bad son. Up the ante kid. Your too easy. Sloppy debate work.
Similarly, Wong's calculations draw almost entirely from high end demonstrations of power while ignoring a lot of low ends (such as aforementioned broad sides not being more impressive than what the USS Iowa could pull in Movie VI or Blaster's being less impressive than the AK-74 I was trained with when they shot R2D2) or wishy washily trying to handwave them away before going right back to the spanking without considering the implications it actually has.
If star destroyers had actual gigatons of firepower, then everyone in TCW cartoon would have been ashes from their "Full power!" bombardment on a bunch of droids on land that once again, failed to surpass World war 2 era battleships in firepower.
Kain wrote: Also I'm going to go ahead and label Gamgee a coward until he stops dodging my points and answers them.
I'm calling you out broski.
You have to provide a source for me to refute. That's how it works. Simply making a point is just a pissing contest. No my dick is longer say I. No my dick is longer say you. And so on and so forth until someone antes up and starts linking. So sure.
Sooo you get to make a bunch of claims without backing them up and then duck behind a site relying on outdated and invalidated canon, but I have to slog through Micheal Wong's wankery again?
No bro you were making the positive claims that go against Star Wars' current canon.
So the movies are no longer considered canon? I mean maybe I missed it (on a brief perusal) but it appeared to me that the linked article was using pretty much just the movies.
Most of its references to star wars industrial capacity (including things like duplicator droids) are based on EU material.
The only solid thing is the Death Star and I'm fairly strongly convinced that's a case of "no sense of scale" rather than any solid indication of industrial capacity.
Particularly as its entirely incongruous with a setting where 3,000,000 unaugmented clones were considered a military worthy of fighting a galactic scale war.
The topic says ALL of Star Wars. Not the parts of Star Wars you don't want. So too bad son. Up the ante kid. Your too easy. Sloppy debate work.
"All of star wars" Means "The movies, The Clone Wars Cartoon, the current Marvel Comic, and Rebels" right now if you're going to play that game.
Similarly, if we play that game, we also play with the War in Heaven and the Dark Age of Technology.
Kain wrote: Similarly, Wong's calculations draw almost entirely from high end demonstrations of power while ignoring a lot of low ends (such as aforementioned broad sides not being more impressive than what the USS Iowa could pull in Movie VI or Blaster's being less impressive than the AK-74 I was trained with when they shot R2D2) or wishy washily trying to handwave them away before going right back to the spanking without considering the implications it actually has.
If star destroyers had actual gigatons of firepower, then everyone in TCW cartoon would have been ashes from their "Full power!" bombardment on a bunch of droids on land that once again, failed to surpass World war 2 era battleships in firepower.
And nothing you just said refutes my evidence. It's almost like your being some sort of chicken gak coward. Your all bark, and no bite.
Edit
You don't seem to get how this prodivind evidence thing works. SO clearly I win. I'm not wasting any more of my time with you. I cited an actual source. You've barked like some squawking kid who had his testicles stepped on. So I'm out. If and when someone shows up to have an actual debate instead of a pissing contest I'll come back.
Kain wrote: Similarly, Wong's calculations draw almost entirely from high end demonstrations of power while ignoring a lot of low ends (such as aforementioned broad sides not being more impressive than what the USS Iowa could pull in Movie VI or Blaster's being less impressive than the AK-74 I was trained with when they shot R2D2) or wishy washily trying to handwave them away before going right back to the spanking without considering the implications it actually has.
If star destroyers had actual gigatons of firepower, then everyone in TCW cartoon would have been ashes from their "Full power!" bombardment on a bunch of droids on land that once again, failed to surpass World war 2 era battleships in firepower.
And nothing you just said refutes my evidence. It's almost like your being some sort of chicken gak coward. Your all bark, and no bite.
Except it does. It shows his methodology for deriving his calculations are at best, deeply flawed and at worst make the story not work, ergo; like in most fictional debates, they are to be discarded whenever firepower is concerned, leaving us with what actually makes the setting work. Which is what we're shown, I.E World war 2 in space.
Bobthehero wrote: Star Wars can blow up solar systems with a single fighter-sized ship that's tougher than a planet, make that of what you will.
What weapon is this?
The Suncrusher. Its armour survived a glancing blow from a Death Star laser, and more tellingly allowed it to survive using its weapon: the ability to force nearby stars to instantly go supernova.
It was a one-of-a-kind weapon though - Seeing as 'crons can mass produce them, well...
Oh, that was a space station that fired a torpedo that had the capability of entering hyperspace to traverse the cosmos to the targeted system. Said torpedoes were also heavily-shielded and fast, so once in-system were nigh-unstoppable.
The Sun-Crusher was also devoured by the black holes of the Maw, and so no longer exists.
I was looking for a "fighter-sized ship" with this capability, based on the post mentioning it.
You're mixing up your phallic symbols superweapons.
You're describing the galaxy gun (which attacked planets and was shaped like a giant space penis), the suncrusher was fighter sized.
Fair enough. When a system is filled with phallic symbol superweapons in a pile of books taller than I am, it's easy to confuse one for another.
Verviedi wrote: 40k... No... The fething TAU godstomp the entire SW Galaxy (assuming original series)
Tau? LoL, Just gimme a random IG regiment and I take out the Republic in couple of Months
Harldly. the Old Sith Empire, Mandalorians, Galactic Empire, and Fel Empire could all solo the entire IoM by themselves.
The Tau would be slaughtered in a fight with any faction star wars presents.
If people want to claim EU doesn't count then you cannot claim that the exaggerated power levels of the 40k levels exist considering 40k doesn't even have a 'canon'.
In short. No gimping.
You seem to not understand the difference in firepower between the IOM and the Galactic Empire.
Powered up turbolaser shots by the ICS unleash 200 gigatons per shot. This level of firepower in 40K is not only common, but child's play. With 40k, firepower on ships commonly stretches into the terratons, IE "what continent" levels of firepower. The Imperium of Mankind doesn't NEED Exterminatus weaponry or a Death Star to blow up a planet. They can and have destroyed worlds by simply dumping lance batteries into the planet to completely annihilate the world and scatter its remnants across several hundred lightyears in the course of merely ten thousand years. In the Night Lords books, Talos and friends discover a piece of Nostramo at LEAST one sector away from the original location of Nostramo. This would mean that the asteroid was accelerated to near the speed of light when Nostramo was destroyed in order to end up over two hundred lightyears away from its original location, and that's being generous. For all we know it could have been hundreds.
40K utterly annihilates Star Wars so hard it isn't even funny. Monsters like fully formed C'tan, the Chaos Gods lacking restriant, or Tyranids declaring a full strength invasion would simply wipe their galaxy off the map. The 40k universe united only results in the complete destruction of the Galaxy of far, far away. Even the fricken' Tau could do a number on Star Wars, and they're an utterly pathetic minor xenos race.
You don't seem to get how this providing evidence thing works. SO clearly I win. I'm not wasting any more of my time with you. I cited an actual source. You've barked like some squawking kid who had his testicles stepped on. So I'm out. If and when someone shows up to have an actual debate instead of a pissing contest I'll come back.
I give you the porkins badge of try hard debate. Keep it up and you might actually threaten someone someday.
Gamgee wrote: You don't seem to get how this providing evidence thing works. SO clearly I win. I'm not wasting any more of my time with you. I cited an actual source. You've barked like some squawking kid who had his testicles stepped on. So I'm out. If and when someone shows up to have an actual debate instead of a pissing contest I'll come back.
Gamgee wrote: 6 months to build a single ISD II from start to finish in a dry dock. The space docks in lore are represented as building dozens of ISD II's at any given time at a single dock area. There are countless untold planets given to producing ISD II's.
Where as the Imperium of man can never build anything new except in a hundred years or more.
So not only can the ISD II's cross the galaxy in days or weeks at most but they can be built and replenished at an astonishing rate. Not to mention they out power any ship the Imperium could hope to send against them.
I won't even waste my time getting into the various super ships and weapons Emperor Palpatine was working on. He was even working on a vessel so large it would be the spearhead of a fleet to conquer another galaxy.
The ENTIRE 40k galaxy is fethed.
You really should make a better attempt at trolling. You're blatantly obvious.
Verviedi wrote: 40k... No... The fething TAU godstomp the entire SW Galaxy (assuming original series)
Tau? LoL, Just gimme a random IG regiment and I take out the Republic in couple of Months
Harldly. the Old Sith Empire, Mandalorians, Galactic Empire, and Fel Empire could all solo the entire IoM by themselves.
The Tau would be slaughtered in a fight with any faction star wars presents.
If people want to claim EU doesn't count then you cannot claim that the exaggerated power levels of the 40k levels exist considering 40k doesn't even have a 'canon'.
In short. No gimping.
You seem to not understand the difference in firepower between the IOM and the Galactic Empire.
Powered up turbolaser shots by the ICS unleash 200 gigatons per shot. This level of firepower in 40K is not only common, but child's play. With 40k, firepower on ships commonly stretches into the terratons, IE "what continent" levels of firepower. The Imperium of Mankind doesn't NEED Exterminatus weaponry or a Death Star to blow up a planet. They can and have destroyed worlds by simply dumping lance batteries into the planet to completely annihilate the world and scatter its remnants across several hundred lightyears in the course of merely ten thousand years. In the Night Lords books, Talos and friends discover a piece of Nostramo at LEAST one sector away from the original location of Nostramo. This would mean that the asteroid was accelerated to near the speed of light when Nostramo was destroyed in order to end up over two hundred lightyears away from its original location, and that's being generous. For all we know it could have been hundreds.
40K utterly annihilates Star Wars so hard it isn't even funny. Monsters like fully formed C'tan, the Chaos Gods lacking restriant, or Tyranids declaring a full strength invasion would simply wipe their galaxy off the map. The 40k universe united only results in the complete destruction of the Galaxy of far, far away. Even the fricken' Tau could do a number on Star Wars, and they're an utterly pathetic minor xenos race.
( Im pretty sure the jokero could do it by hemselves , anyways your right the planet caliban was literally torn apart by lance blasts from imperial ships, not to mention the warhammer godsplitter was rumored to have destroyed planets with one strike.)
Kain wrote: "All of star wars" Means "The movies, The Clone Wars Cartoon, the current Marvel Comic, and Rebels" right now if you're going to play that game.
Similarly, if we play that game, we also play with the War in Heaven and the Dark Age of Technology.
How do you figure? Either we stick to the canon, in which case SW is stuck using the movies, clone war cartoon and current marvel comic (as well as rebels) and Warhammer is stuck with nothing, or we throw canon out the window, and Star Wars (and 40K) gets all the toys, including the suncrusher, the galaxy gun, the yuuzhan vong (though I have no idea why anyone would want them).
However, we still have no idea how much power Warhammer 40K weapons put out.
Kain wrote: "All of star wars" Means "The movies, The Clone Wars Cartoon, the current Marvel Comic, and Rebels" right now if you're going to play that game.
Similarly, if we play that game, we also play with the War in Heaven and the Dark Age of Technology.
How do you figure? Either we stick to the canon, in which case SW is stuck using the movies, clone war cartoon and current marvel comic (as well as rebels) and Warhammer is stuck with nothing, or we throw canon out the window, and Star Wars (and 40K) gets all the toys, including the suncrusher, the galaxy gun, the yuuzhan vong (though I have no idea why anyone would want them).
However, we still have no idea how much power Warhammer 40K weapons put out.
( Yes but that would mean we get the god emporer of mankind wouldnt it. I do however understand where your coming from using starwars films etc as cannon,but that also means dawn of war games are cannon.)
Kain wrote: "All of star wars" Means "The movies, The Clone Wars Cartoon, the current Marvel Comic, and Rebels" right now if you're going to play that game.
Similarly, if we play that game, we also play with the War in Heaven and the Dark Age of Technology.
How do you figure? Either we stick to the canon, in which case SW is stuck using the movies, clone war cartoon and current marvel comic (as well as rebels) and Warhammer is stuck with nothing, or we throw canon out the window, and Star Wars (and 40K) gets all the toys, including the suncrusher, the galaxy gun, the yuuzhan vong (though I have no idea why anyone would want them).
However, we still have no idea how much power Warhammer 40K weapons put out.
Warhammer is not stuck with nothing. GW's policy is that everything is valid, and that's where their care ends. Star Wars meanwhile has always had a rigid canon formula. Even under the old system the ICS was not valid, not any of the high calcs. Books like the ICS under the old canon were over-ruled by the movies and clone wars cartoon (G and T canon levels respectively). However as 200 gigatons are nothing being thrown around either in the movies or the clone wars show, and only occasionally popping up in other books, C canon. And even that was rare.
40K meanwhile has extremely clear levels of firepower from the destruction of Nostramo, where a fleet of ships annihilated a planet with a crust made of solid adamantium, with the resulting explosion being so potent that pieces of the planet ended up in neighboring sectors of space in a mere ten thousand years. That is extremely crazy.
The OP, in response to my question, stated that this bit of mental masturbation takes place during the "current" era for each setting. So we have 13th Black Crusade 40K vs Post-Vong Invasion SW.
.... SW is right fethed sideways and backwards.
I mean, I like SW, a lot. It's one of my favorite settings for adventuring in... but even if you gave them 10x the number of Jedi as have ever been in the setting, they're fethed.
That's the point of 40K. It's OTT. It's designed to be OTT. It is, in fact, designed to be ridiculouslyOTT when compared to every other sci-fi and fantasy setting that was popularly known in the late 1980s... and that definitely included Star Wars!
SW: We built 3 million Clones to fight the Clone Wars!
40K: We suffered 3 million deaths establishing a beach-head... and then the rest of the military arrived.
Wyzilla wrote: GW's policy is that everything is valid, and that's where their care ends.
I'm curious if you have a quote for that. The only thing I can find regarding 40K canon is on 1d4chan, which states
Games Workshop's official stance is that all of the fluff is told by an unreliable narrator, and is therefore true and false at the same time. This is so they can sell you multiple stories and products without having to wade through 25 years worth of bs. This frustrates and annoys fa/tg/uys, who pull a fit every time their comic book collection gets even slightly out of order.
However, it's pretty common practice in most large franchises. This stance actually allows individuals to have their own 'personal canon', but of course, people don't see it that way and instead want their galaxy sweeping, massively scaled space opera to be detailed right down to how many pubic hairs Roboute Guilliman has.
Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 have continuity and consistency, but nothing can be truly described as canon, as the powers that be never set anything in stone. Or to put it another way, Space Marines look a certain way and behave along certain guidelines, but exact details change depending on who is telling the story. On the other hand, some authors have truly taken the piss with this policy, such as Captain C.S. MULTI-LAZOR.
Thanks. For what its worth, I do believe that 40K would win, as it is intended to be completely over the top, however, I also believe that 40K is one of the very few universes, that SW would struggle with.
You gotta love how the SW guys begin to grasp at straws, pulling out all manner of 1-off, totally obscure super weapons that most of which are no longer considered valid or canon.
One thing I like to point out. Take a picture (to scale) of a Star Destroyer and an Imperial Retribution Class Battleship (as they are equivalent ships in their role). Look at the giant holes in the side of the Retribution. Those are Macro Cannons. Each of those fires a shell that is that wide (and about as long as a fairly large building). Now compare the Macro Cannons to the Star Destroyer.... A Retribution wouldn't even need a full broadside to tear a star destroyer in half. That and there are "light" cruisers and smaller craft with equally as large weapons on board. This is not even counting the HUGE Lance batteries mounted dorsally.
I like finding pictures that have all the ships to scale side by side. You can clearly see the majority of the weapons mounted on 40k ships due to their incredible SIZE. You can't actually see the SW ships weapons they are so small. Hell the Nova Cannon mounted under the prow of some Imperial ships is longer than some of the SW ships.
Not to mention the sheer endless numbers of Guard, Orks, Tyranids, The power of Chaos, The Eldar, Necrons, The God Emperor of Mankind, The Chaos Gods themselves, The Old Ones, Dark Age of Technology tech and the list goes on.
Oh we made 3 million clone troopers!
That's Tuesdays losses.... Send the Next wave....
On the Ground, In Space, Or even in whatever plane the gods exist on. 40k wins.
It will be an epic slugfest of apocalyptic proportions (another day at the office for 40k, a horror show for SW) but 40k will come out on top.
Ep VII is set AFTER the chronological events of those books and Chewie is STILL ALIVE. Ergo, it didn't happen.
Ep 7 hasn't happened yet and, in actuality, seems to place the SW galaxy in an even worse-off position, as Skywalker has not (so far as we know yet) re-established the Jedi Order, and the Galactic Republic still seems to be flailing about ineffectually (so is basically the same as it's always been).
Look, for all its size and population, the Galactic Republic got its ass kicked by a bunch of pirates from a tiny-ass sector of space until one guy said "Feth that!" and went and took the fight to the pirates.
That was, of course, Revan's opening move in what would become the Jedi Civil War. As a result of his actions, of course, the Jedi Order is all but wiped out, the Republic brought to the brink of destruction (again) and a major ecumenopolis blasted to slag by a single starship. Worse, this paves the way for Emperor Vitiate to become, basically, the embodiment of the Dark Side and go roaming about the galaxy, eating planets as strikes his fancy. It also leads to a series of wars that sees Coruscant raided, the Jedi Temple destroyed, the Order's ranks infiltrated by agents of the Sith (some of whom come to sit on the Council, ffs!) and billions of lives lost in a galaxy-spanning conflict.
Starwars loses due to being unable to fight off an invasion.
40k is epic in scale. There weapons are massive and can splinter entire moons and ships that are created from adamantium or some other mythical metal.
Often this discussion comes up and most times unless this is brought up on a starwars fanwebsite 40k Wins.
I remember as a joke I made a halo vs 40k thread. And clearly people took it very seriously and saw that 40k would lose because space marines are not trained like spartans. (Yet they were, never mind)
40k Wins by landslide. There is no way to defeat a science fiction universe that has lost itself in its grim darkness and being comic bookish. Unless you bring up the culture and screw those books and the creator as those stories are boring and the race that is in it are literally gods.
40k is epic in scale. There weapons are massive and can splinter entire moons and ships that are created from adamantium or some other mythical metal.
Often this discussion comes up and most times unless this is brought up on a starwars fanwebsite 40k Wins.
I remember as a joke I made a halo vs 40k thread. And clearly people took it very seriously and saw that 40k would lose because space marines are not trained like spartans. (Yet they were, never mind)
40k Wins by landslide. There is no way to defeat a science fiction universe that has lost itself in its grim darkness and being comic bookish. Unless you bring up the culture and screw those books and the creator as those stories are boring and the race that is in it are literally gods.
Wasnt the ONLY one that could possible stand was the marvel universe which also literally was full of gods?
Pretty sure the HHGttG setting could win, too, simply because of the Improbability Drive.
It's like I said earlier, I like Star Wars, a lot, but there is simply no competition here against the 40k universe. Even if the various factions of 40k don't work together and all the SW factions do, it's a no-brainer. Between Chaos, the Imperium, the Necrons and the Tyranid, the SW galaxy is fethed. They could divide it into four sections and each take one, and that would be that. The SW universe simply lacks the numbers and the production rate to counter the overwhelming firepower that 40k presents. What is a rare/unique and *huge* starship in SW is pretty much your run-of-the-mill battleship in 40k.
The greatest combatants in SW have no guaranteed defense against the common weapon of 40k's signature factions (sorry, a lightsaber cannot parry a Gauss Flayer, or a bolter for very long). SW has almost no answer for Titans. They definitely don't have an answer for Daemons.
In terms of high powered SciFi, Galactic Civilizations can probably take home the gold with using the materials for literal black holes as armor and infantry weapons and instant matter to energy beams. But Gal Civ is incredibly silly and makes no pretensions at being anything other than silly.
Strike legion probably can also win with shenanigans like Pistols that can provide orbital bombardment and planet busting hand grenades. But that's also a pretty flatly ridiculous universe (it has talking space squirrels for one thing) and one that parodies 40k pretty heavily at that (the most iconic bad guys are a human dominated Imperium with an immortal psychic Empress).
In more serious works there's the culture with it's "zip around at superluminal velocities firing blasts that make supernovas seem like firecrackers" hilarity (though given how libertine and hedonistic it is it might just be Slaanesh fodder), and the Xeeleeverse with its time travel and starbursting handguns.
40k is epic in scale. There weapons are massive and can splinter entire moons and ships that are created from adamantium or some other mythical metal.
Often this discussion comes up and most times unless this is brought up on a starwars fanwebsite 40k Wins.
I remember as a joke I made a halo vs 40k thread. And clearly people took it very seriously and saw that 40k would lose because space marines are not trained like spartans. (Yet they were, never mind)
40k Wins by landslide. There is no way to defeat a science fiction universe that has lost itself in its grim darkness and being comic bookish. Unless you bring up the culture and screw those books and the creator as those stories are boring and the race that is in it are literally gods.
Wasnt the ONLY one that could possible stand was the marvel universe which also literally was full of gods?
No wonder why I don't like universes with literal gods who can destroy all life and have no limit to their powers. And are just there to be there and they can literally do anything. Because there is no reason to make that universe at all interesting.
Marvel was also written a bit better than say the Culture books. As it is just what I would call science spank fiction. There is no reason to read it other than its interesting technologies the races have and then there is no counter for it.
In terms of universes 40k would most likely not like to engage in a ground war with;
Metal Gear.
That Metal Gear Ray weighs over five hundred tons and Raiden proceeds to play hop skotch on a literal stream of maverick missiles. And then he gets a massive upgrade to his Cyborg body. How much stronger does he get?
Psienesis wrote: Of course they can. So long as a sentient creature with the belief that they exist goes somewhere so, too, does the Warp go with them.
Um I don't think that's correct. If that were true than every species in 40k with a pantheon would literally have their own warp gods as well. As well as embodiments of ideals such as the sith and jedi( rule of emotions vs strict control over onesconscious))
Here's the thing I think of, biggest gun (That' I'm aware of, as I've only heard of the Sun Crusher and haven't read a book or actually SEEN it...) is the Death Star in Star Wars
On 40k's side...there is a metric feth ton of planet busters, but excluding the Blackstone Fortress for a sec, I'd have to point out Abaddon's Planet Killer.
Now the Death Star, is point at something, charge up, fire, something explodes.
The Planet Killer on the other hand fires a ship, cuts it in half, hits the next ship cuts it in half, and THEN hits a planet and tears it's core out in a massive explosion.
Plus the Planet Killer is a like a ballerina compared to the Death Star.
Not to mention the SIZE of just the Imperium's ship alone is redonkulessly big compared to the Star Wars ships.
Star Wars can hold it's own, but I think their universe would burn in the flames of war just like every other faction.
That said on the side of HEROES I think most the Jedi and Sith can beat most of the characters in 40k. I'll take Luke Skywalker over Draigo, and though there is temptation I'd take Vader over Abby.
Psienesis wrote: Of course they can. So long as a sentient creature with the belief that they exist goes somewhere so, too, does the Warp go with them.
Um I don't think that's correct. If that were true than every species in 40k with a pantheon would literally have their own warp gods as well. As well as embodiments of ideals such as the sith and jedi( rule of emotions vs strict control over onesconscious))
You are correct, technically everyone in 40k has their own pantheon. Although this pantheons are part of the larger Chaos gods (example, Khaine is part of Khorne).
The outcome would be simple.
Both universes would be utterly annihilated by a distortion in space-time continuum caused by the impossibility of two seperate dimensions with completely different and incompatible realities colliding.
Asherian Command wrote: Unless you bring up the culture and screw those books and the creator as those stories are boring and the race that is in it are literally gods.
You officially have no taste. The Culture novels are better than 40k's fluff by almost as much of a margin as a Culture civilian transport beats the entire 40k setting.
As for the OP, it really depends on which version of 40k you're using. If it's the version where WWII-level equipment is god-like lost tech then Star Wars wins by an obscene margin. If it's the high-end version then it's pretty close numbers-wise but Star Wars still wins because they aren't a bunch of insane religious zealots who believe that thinking like a reasonable person is heresy.
Asherian Command wrote: Unless you bring up the culture and screw those books and the creator as those stories are boring and the race that is in it are literally gods.
You officially have no taste. The Culture novels are better than 40k's fluff by almost as much of a margin as a Culture civilian transport beats the entire 40k setting.
As for the OP, it really depends on which version of 40k you're using. If it's the version where WWII-level equipment is god-like lost tech then Star Wars wins by an obscene margin. If it's the high-end version then it's pretty close numbers-wise but Star Wars still wins because they aren't a bunch of insane religious zealots who believe that thinking like a reasonable person is heresy.
Umm...
I think you missed the part where he said all of the 40k universe. All of it. Necrons, Eldar, Tau, Space Marines, Tyranids, Orks.
There is no way that a bunch of panzies with energy swords can beat a tyranid hive fleet. Hell the Necrons would destroy everything they had.
The Imperium would just ransack each planet and bombard it.
See Peregrine this is where most people just look at that though and think nope. That isn't 40k. You keep coming up with this bogus that there is ww2 equipment in the 40k arsenal when they aren't. You keep bringing that argument up but every-time people will shut you down on that.
Because you are literally just speaking out of your butt.
Also the bit about the culture. It is a stupid series of books to me. And it doesn't fit what I would call good science fiction. I don't particular enjoy science fiction or fiction for that matter where the main characters have access to incredibly powerful weaponry that only gods can use. If a character has the power to literally think something into existance there is no conflict there is no interest, there is nothing that ties me to those characters. Hence why I hate any book like that.
It Is my desicion the mighty op to give starwars an chance, they gain the following as allies. all of the forces from any stargate movie or t.v series and they also gain all of starcraft
Psienesis wrote: Of course they can. So long as a sentient creature with the belief that they exist goes somewhere so, too, does the Warp go with them.
Um I don't think that's correct. If that were true than every species in 40k with a pantheon would literally have their own warp gods as well. As well as embodiments of ideals such as the sith and jedi( rule of emotions vs strict control over onesconscious))
They do. Every sentient species in the galaxy that believes in gods has created those gods in the Warp.
There's the Great Four, there's the Eldar Gods (those that are still alive, anyway), there's the God-Emperor of Mankind, there's the "lesser" Chaos gods, like Malal, there's Gork and Mork... and a bazillion Xenos gods that we may know as various Daemon Princes or guises of Tzeentch or other names for Khorne or any one of a million other things.
Those embodiments of ideals? They call them Daemons in 40k. The most-powerful of those ideals? They become the Gods of the Warp.
I don't understand how some of you guys can even compare the two universes. I have been an avid reader and movie watcher of star wars and I have just started getting into warhammer and I can tell y ou right now. Star Wars does not stand a chance..First and foremost let's compare the normal human forces. The Astra Militarum wins on sheer numbers alone and their firepower is rediculous. the empire and the rebel alliance could not stand a chance. But let's say for the sake of argument that they give the imperial guard a run for their money. Now we bring in the special forces. Let's pit the forces of Chaos against the Sith Army. Tell me guys... When was the last time a Sith Lord summoned a Demon. We could pit the space marines against the Jedi. I think the space marines would run through them because from what I have seen, the Force is truly no comparison to the powers of the warp. But let's give the Jedi the benefit of the doubt and say they can hold their own against the Astartes. what will they do against the Grey Knights who are essentially space marine Jedi. A grey knight is a super soldier with vast psionic powers. Picture the strength of the hulk, with the mental powers of Prof. X and Jean grey and the tactical genius of Batman. and on top of that. THEY KNOW NO FEAR!!! I'm sorry, Warhammer vs. Star Wars. Not even a match. Maybe if star wars teamed up with Halo and battlestar galactica they would stand a small chance. And that was just 2 forces of the imperium. I didn't mention the Sisters of battle, the adeptus machanicus, the inquisition. and all the heretics and xenos WH40k can throw at them. No contest.
KingmanHighborn wrote: Here's the thing I think of, biggest gun (That' I'm aware of, as I've only heard of the Sun Crusher and haven't read a book or actually SEEN it...) is the Death Star in Star Wars
On 40k's side...there is a metric feth ton of planet busters, but excluding the Blackstone Fortress for a sec, I'd have to point out Abaddon's Planet Killer.
Now the Death Star, is point at something, charge up, fire, something explodes.
The Planet Killer on the other hand fires a ship, cuts it in half, hits the next ship cuts it in half, and THEN hits a planet and tears it's core out in a massive explosion.
Plus the Planet Killer is a like a ballerina compared to the Death Star.
Not to mention the SIZE of just the Imperium's ship alone is redonkulessly big compared to the Star Wars ships.
Star Wars can hold it's own, but I think their universe would burn in the flames of war just like every other faction.
That said on the side of HEROES I think most the Jedi and Sith can beat most of the characters in 40k. I'll take Luke Skywalker over Draigo, and though there is temptation I'd take Vader over Abby.
Wat
Star Wars characters are laughably compared to their 40K counterparts. Unlike Jedi, 40K psykers go straight for the "melt the enemy down to goo" attack, while due to ethical concerns Jedi almost never jump to such violent attacks. Skywalker for example would be pasted by pretty much any Grey Knight in the opening exchange of attacks, with Luke probably heading for a powerful, but nonlethal kinetic push while the Grey Knight skips right to boiling all the blood in his body or vaporiizng him with an intense burst of heat.
Lruss40k wrote: I don't understand how some of you guys can even compare the two universes. I have been an avid reader and movie watcher of star wars and I have just started getting into warhammer and I can tell y ou right now. Star Wars does not stand a chance..First and foremost let's compare the normal human forces. The Astra Militarum wins on sheer numbers alone and their firepower is rediculous. the empire and the rebel alliance could not stand a chance. But let's say for the sake of argument that they give the imperial guard a run for their money. Now we bring in the special forces. Let's pit the forces of Chaos against the Sith Army. Tell me guys... When was the last time a Sith Lord summoned a Demon. We could pit the space marines against the Jedi. I think the space marines would run through them because from what I have seen, the Force is truly no comparison to the powers of the warp. But let's give the Jedi the benefit of the doubt and say they can hold their own against the Astartes. what will they do against the Grey Knights who are essentially space marine Jedi. A grey knight is a super soldier with vast psionic powers. Picture the strength of the hulk, with the mental powers of Prof. X and Jean grey and the tactical genius of Batman. and on top of that. THEY KNOW NO FEAR!!! I'm sorry, Warhammer vs. Star Wars. Not even a match. Maybe if star wars teamed up with Halo and battlestar galactica they would stand a small chance. And that was just 2 forces of the imperium. I didn't mention the Sisters of battle, the adeptus machanicus, the inquisition. and all the heretics and xenos WH40k can throw at them. No contest.
( I gave them all of the stargate universe and starcraft, i might add my little pony for bright colourful meat shields.)
Wyzilla wrote: GW's policy is that everything is valid, and that's where their care ends.
I'm curious if you have a quote for that. The only thing I can find regarding 40K canon is on 1d4chan, which states
Games Workshop's official stance is that all of the fluff is told by an unreliable narrator, and is therefore true and false at the same time. This is so they can sell you multiple stories and products without having to wade through 25 years worth of bs. This frustrates and annoys fa/tg/uys, who pull a fit every time their comic book collection gets even slightly out of order.
However, it's pretty common practice in most large franchises. This stance actually allows individuals to have their own 'personal canon', but of course, people don't see it that way and instead want their galaxy sweeping, massively scaled space opera to be detailed right down to how many pubic hairs Roboute Guilliman has.
Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 have continuity and consistency, but nothing can be truly described as canon, as the powers that be never set anything in stone. Or to put it another way, Space Marines look a certain way and behave along certain guidelines, but exact details change depending on who is telling the story. On the other hand, some authors have truly taken the piss with this policy, such as Captain C.S. MULTI-LAZOR.
Asherian Command wrote: I think you missed the part where he said all of the 40k universe. All of it. Necrons, Eldar, Tau, Space Marines, Tyranids, Orks.
No, I saw that, and my original comments are still accurate. Low-end 40k loses horribly, high-end 40k puts up a fight but eventually loses because of idiotic leadership. High-end 40k hardware can match Star Wars stuff 1v1, but doesn't have enough of an advantage to offset the fact the sheer incompetence that those weapons are used with.
There is no way that a bunch of panzies with energy swords can beat a tyranid hive fleet.
And your point is? The jedi are just symbolic warrior-monks, not a major military force. Unlike the Imperium the Star Wars factions would not be stupid enough to lose to an enemy that is easily killed by WMDs.
You keep coming up with this bogus that there is ww2 equipment in the 40k arsenal when they aren't.
I didn't say there was WWII equipment, I said there was equipment that makes WWII equipment look like god-like magic. AKA 90% of the imperial guard, most space marine vehicles, space battleships with slave crews hauling on ropes to aim the cannons, etc. Giving most IG armies WWII tanks/artillery/etc would be a pretty significant improvement.
Also the bit about the culture. It is a stupid series of books to me. And it doesn't fit what I would call good science fiction. I don't particular enjoy science fiction or fiction for that matter where the main characters have access to incredibly powerful weaponry that only gods can use. If a character has the power to literally think something into existance there is no conflict there is no interest, there is nothing that ties me to those characters. Hence why I hate any book like that.
And, I repeat, you have no taste. And if you think there is no conflict in the books because they have really big guns then you clearly never read them.
Wasn't the Empire Defeated by a bunch of teens dropping a bomb into a small thermal exhaust port?
Prior to that wasn't the republic backed by an army of 3 million - 18 billion clone troopers and possibly a hundred or so Jedi?
How does that defeat the limitless armies of the IoM, Orks, Tyranids, Demons?
When you have the Eldar/Necron who have advanced weapons that manipulate the universe itself? I don't see any scenario where Yoda's skull isn't hanging on a lucky stick or Darth Vader isn't turned into a servitor.
Even if we give the Sith/Jedi the force and keep the Warp. It's more or less the same thing. If anything the warp is more violent and deadly as you can bend reality/the universe.
The only way SW can hold it's own (not even win) would be if there was infighting within the 40k forces. Otherwise ANY one faction can destroy the entire Star wars universe.
Would love the see a simulation done though based on cannon (or as best as one can get) numbers/facts based on the lore and stories of both.
Inkubas wrote: Wasn't the Empire Defeated by a bunch of teens dropping a bomb into a small thermal exhaust port?
Prior to that wasn't the republic backed by an army of 3 million clone troopers and possibly a hundred or so Jedi?
How does that defeat the limitless armies of the IoM, Orks, Tyranids, Demons?
When you have the Eldar/Necron who have advanced weapons that manipulate the universe itself? I don't see any scenario where Yoda's skull isn't hanging on a lucky stick or Darth Vader isn't turned into a servitor.
Even if we give the Sith/Jedi the force and keep the Warp. It's more or less the same thing. If anything the warp is more violent and deadly as you can bend reality/the universe.
The only way SW can hold it's own (not even win) would be if there was infighting within the 40k forces. Otherwise ANY one faction can destroy the entire Star wars universe.
Would love the see a simulation done though based on cannon (or as best as one can get) numbers/facts based on the lore and stories of both.
Inkubas wrote: Wasn't the Empire Defeated by a bunch of teens dropping a bomb into a small thermal exhaust port?
No. One weapon was destroyed, but the Empire built another one within a few years.
Prior to that wasn't the republic backed by an army of 3 million - 18 billion clone troopers and possibly a hundred or so Jedi?
No. The clones supplemented the Republic's existing military, but that's it. And the jedi were leaders and religious/political symbols, not common soldiers. Plus, if you want to talk about scale issues, remember how the Imperium has about a million space marines (smaller than the all-volunteer peacetime US military of 2015)?
How does that defeat the limitless armies of the IoM, Orks, Tyranids, Demons?
By shooting them from orbit? Having limitless armies doesn't help much if your enemy has no reason to fight those armies. Remember that, unlike the various 40k factions, Star Wars has reliable FTL capable of crossing the entire galaxy within hours, days at most. It doesn't matter how many guardsmen you have if a fleet of star destroyers is busy turning all of your key planets into spheres of glass.
When you have the Eldar/Necron who have advanced weapons that manipulate the universe itself?
Given that the Eldar and Necrons are regularly defeated by much less advanced factions it's a safe assumption that the supposed "manipulating the universe itself" and other high-end claims are arrogant boasting, not truth.
Inkubas wrote: Wasn't the Empire Defeated by a bunch of teens dropping a bomb into a small thermal exhaust port?
No. One weapon was destroyed, but the Empire built another one within a few years.
Prior to that wasn't the republic backed by an army of 3 million - 18 billion clone troopers and possibly a hundred or so Jedi?
No. The clones supplemented the Republic's existing military, but that's it. And the jedi were leaders and religious/political symbols, not common soldiers. Plus, if you want to talk about scale issues, remember how the Imperium has about a million space marines (smaller than the all-volunteer peacetime US military of 2015)?
How does that defeat the limitless armies of the IoM, Orks, Tyranids, Demons?
By shooting them from orbit? Having limitless armies doesn't help much if your enemy has no reason to fight those armies. Remember that, unlike the various 40k factions, Star Wars has reliable FTL capable of crossing the entire galaxy within hours, days at most. It doesn't matter how many guardsmen you have if a fleet of star destroyers is busy turning all of your key planets into spheres of glass.
When you have the Eldar/Necron who have advanced weapons that manipulate the universe itself?
Given that the Eldar and Necrons are regularly defeated by much less advanced factions it's a safe assumption that the supposed "manipulating the universe itself" and other high-end claims are arrogant boasting, not truth.
Necrons regularly defeated? You're not serious are you?
The Clones didn't "supplement" any pre-existing military. The GAR was the clones with some small number of non-clone logistical personnel, and that was it. The Jedi also were peaceful diplomats no longer during the Clone Wars, with the Knights and Masters taking up titles as Generals and Commanders of the various Clone Trooper battalions and legions.
Wyzilla wrote: The Clones didn't "supplement" any pre-existing military.
So you're seriously going to try to argue that the Republic had no military until the clones were delivered? TBH that means that 40k is even more hopelessly screwed, since the Star Wars side has the ability to manufacture whole fleets of ships overnight and can easily win a battle of attrition.
Wyzilla wrote: The Clones didn't "supplement" any pre-existing military.
So you're seriously going to try to argue that the Republic had no military until the clones were delivered? TBH that means that 40k is even more hopelessly screwed, since the Star Wars side has the ability to manufacture whole fleets of ships overnight and can easily win a battle of attrition.
They did, but it was utterly minimal and did not play a major part in the Clone Wars. At best they were behind the scenes supplying everyone and sitting in offices while keeping the paperwork flowing. At worst they simply didn't exist.
Also, those ships weren't manufactured overnight, nor were the ships. The entire plot and point of AOTC was that Palpatine set into motion the creation of the GAR a decade or more in advance.
I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you, but if war broke out between the warhammer 40,000 universe and the star wars universe there could be only one true winner:
Wyzilla wrote: They did, but it was utterly minimal and did not play a major part in the Clone Wars. At best they were behind the scenes supplying everyone and sitting in offices while keeping the paperwork flowing. At worst they simply didn't exist.
Also, those ships weren't manufactured overnight, nor were the ships. The entire plot and point of AOTC was that Palpatine set into motion the creation of the GAR a decade or more in advance.
The Grand Army of the Republic (GAR), also known as the Grand Army and the Clone Army, was a major branch of the Galactic Republic Military composed entirely of clone troopers
Plus, the situation should be obvious from the first few minutes of the prequel trilogy, when the jedi arrive and don't immediately say "OH THEY HAVE BATTLESHIPS WE'RE SCREWED PLEASE DEAR GOD NEGOTIATE WITH US" like they would if the Republic had no significant military of its own. And then the Republic debates whether or not to grant the main characters' request to intervene, they don't immediately say "sorry, but we can't do anything because they have guns and we don't". It's very clear that the Republic doesn't want a war, but the blockade fleet isn't a crisis that threatens its existence. So the Republic must have its own fleet that is capable of ending the blockade by force, even if it is reluctant to use that fleet for political reasons.
Torga_DW wrote: I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you, but if war broke out between the warhammer 40,000 universe and the star wars universe there could be only one true winner:
Wyzilla wrote: They did, but it was utterly minimal and did not play a major part in the Clone Wars. At best they were behind the scenes supplying everyone and sitting in offices while keeping the paperwork flowing. At worst they simply didn't exist.
Also, those ships weren't manufactured overnight, nor were the ships. The entire plot and point of AOTC was that Palpatine set into motion the creation of the GAR a decade or more in advance.
The Grand Army of the Republic (GAR), also known as the Grand Army and the Clone Army, was a major branch of the Galactic Republic Military composed entirely of clone troopers
Plus, the situation should be obvious from the first few minutes of the prequel trilogy, when the jedi arrive and don't immediately say "OH THEY HAVE BATTLESHIPS WE'RE SCREWED PLEASE DEAR GOD NEGOTIATE WITH US" like they would if the Republic had no significant military of its own. And then the Republic debates whether or not to grant the main characters' request to intervene, they don't immediately say "sorry, but we can't do anything because they have guns and we don't". It's very clear that the Republic doesn't want a war, but the blockade fleet isn't a crisis that threatens its existence. So the Republic must have its own fleet that is capable of ending the blockade by force, even if it is reluctant to use that fleet for political reasons.
Except there is no numbers to the fleet to begin with, not to mention most information on the Republic Navy (scant information at that), is from Legends.
How does that defeat the limitless armies of the IoM, Orks, Tyranids, Demons?
By shooting them from orbit? Having limitless armies doesn't help much if your enemy has no reason to fight those armies. Remember that, unlike the various 40k factions, Star Wars has reliable FTL capable of crossing the entire galaxy within hours, days at most. It doesn't matter how many guardsmen you have if a fleet of star destroyers is busy turning all of your key planets into spheres of glass.
When you have the Eldar/Necron who have advanced weapons that manipulate the universe itself?
Given that the Eldar and Necrons are regularly defeated by much less advanced factions it's a safe assumption that the supposed "manipulating the universe itself" and other high-end claims are arrogant boasting, not truth.
Neither of these actually make any sense at all in the 40k universe. You would think that the way every space marine commander would start a battle with the Orks would be to point at them and say, "Ok, drop 100 orbital bombardments there." For that matter, "drop 200 empty drop pods on top of those Orks!" Or remote-operated DWMLs. Or drone Vindicators squadrons! And you'd think the way Eldar would fight would be to fly to Terra, snuff out the Terran star and tell the humands to stick it where the sun don't shine.
And all species in 40k have Warp travel (or the Webway) so you'd think they'd all be a lot more mobile with their battleforces instead these planetary garrisons.
The Star Wars universe actually makes much more sense, from the perspective of "why do they do what they do"?
Evidence is always the other guy's responsibility on this forum. Yeesh. That is no way to have a real discussion.
Kain wrote: It gets to the point of "why the feth did the Empire even bother with the death star when they have all this nonsensical insanity?" It really just felt like the whole post-ROTJ EU was dedicated to making all the effort expended in the OT feel like a huge waste of time. "Yay we beat the empire, except no the war's just really beginning!" Among a huge conga-line of ridiculous things that makes me glad that Disney flushed the whole thing down the drain.
Be a little kinder, its not all gak. The Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy was an awesome bit of world-building.
Interesting discussions but the issue isn't worth losing sleep over. We're talking about 2 universes that are pretty inconsistent. The power levels of various things are quoted with great disparity so which of these value do you even use when pitting say a Star Destroyer against a Battle Barge. Screwed if I know...
Wow. When I say limitless I mean limitless. Beyond scope of comprehension. Even with star destroyers you have things like ammo, equipment and morale that are finite. They run out. Each ship destroyed would be a crippling loss while nids, orks and demons can endure. The only reason that I believe you are adamant some storm troopers and PDF can win is because there hasent been a full scale invasion from any faction. Its always been a splitter fleet. I'll use the nids because its easier to explain. Say you are in peak physical condition, training all your life in a heavily military environment. You are learned in all forms of tactics and equipped by the best weapons around.
You walk into a room and you see this small child. You are instructed to not leave until the child is dead. Simple. You walk up to this creature and execute it with a shot to the head. Done. No wait. It regenerated and now there are two teen sized creatures. You point your gun and fire. They know your going for headshots and proceed to dodge. However your skill is superb and you shoot through the heart. Now there are four. They are man sized. You shoot but they are impervious to bullets. Must have adapted to your fighting style. OK straight combat you break necks and snap spines. There are now eight fully grown men. Bullets no longer work and you are out of ammo. You manage to kill them in hand to hand but only nearly because you ate so tired. You look up in a sweaty gaze as exhaustion is kicking in. You see they move faster then you can comprehend and have claws. They parry and block each blow that you make with weary limbs. You start to realize that this is hopeless and despair starts to creep in. That is what the nids are. They are an unstoppable force of nature that learns and evolves and is only held back because it is not unified.They will blot out the sun with their bodies, adapt to surpass your best admiral, know no fear or mercy and are only ONE faction. I haven't even mentioned a near indestructible Necron force who also is always at partial strength because when they were at full strength they owned the universe and trapped real God like beings.But your right somehow a fleet of star destroyers piloted by some storm troopers marksmen can not only hold off the Nids, Orks, Necrons, Eldar, chaos, and the IoM but win against that threat. Because as far as I know, they (40k universe) aren't lead by a brilliant fish man and a militant teenage princess and have access to a fleet of 22 X-wing, 8 Y-wing, and 2 R-22 Spearhead starfighters to knock out the only thing holding the empire's authority... A deathstar
I've got to say Star Wars. They don't mess around in Star Wars man.
Exterminatus takes multiple bombardments, virus bombs etc, and even then the planet is still there.
Death Star. BOOM. Planet gone. No muss. No fuss.
FTL Travel in Star Wars takes, at most, a week? Warp travel takes FOREVER and is inherently risky, because Warp.
The Sith are not madmen, they are calculating, patient and strike with overwhelming force.
Chaos is just that, Chaos. The Sith empire only needed 1 try each time to get the galaxy to bow to them, what number black crusade are we on?
Furthermore. The Sith "Big Bads" actually have arms, Abaddon.
The big names in Star Wars will most likely win V 40K big names most of the time. As powerful as the Primarchs were, I don't think they could stand up against Revan, Mace Windu, Yoda, Malgus, Grievous, Obi-Wan, Anakin (Both versions), Satele Shan, Basila Shan, Boba Fett etc.
Besides, all this is besides the point. We all know what we'd pay to see.
The heroes in Star Wars are all roughly equivalent in ability to a Temple Assassin. Even the most powerful jedi rule-breakers can barely cast living lightning.
Going up against an Alpha-plus psyker like Tiggie or Ahriman? Just not going to go in the Jedi's favour.
Izural wrote: I've got to say Star Wars. They don't mess around in Star Wars man.
Exterminatus takes multiple bombardments, virus bombs etc, and even then the planet is still there.
Death Star. BOOM. Planet gone. No muss. No fuss.
FTL Travel in Star Wars takes, at most, a week? Warp travel takes FOREVER and is inherently risky, because Warp.
The Sith are not madmen, they are calculating, patient and strike with overwhelming force.
Chaos is just that, Chaos. The Sith empire only needed 1 try each time to get the galaxy to bow to them, what number black crusade are we on?
Furthermore. The Sith "Big Bads" actually have arms, Abaddon.
The big names in Star Wars will most likely win V 40K big names most of the time. As powerful as the Primarchs were, I don't think they could stand up against Revan, Mace Windu, Yoda, Malgus, Grievous, Obi-Wan, Anakin (Both versions), Satele Shan, Basila Shan, Boba Fett etc.
Besides, all this is besides the point. We all know what we'd pay to see.
Rancor V Carnifex.
Fanboy alert.
Primarchs which are literal gods are somehow defeated by a guy with a light saber. Yep totally sounds legit. Sorry let me check the lore for one second. Oh yes it says here that everytime a human were to.. face a Primarch they would A. Instantly die, B. Get extremely fearful C. get mindblasted and have their head literally explode. D. Get ripped limb from limb. E. Get killed in an ambush that was set up somehow.
In a universe where literal gods are walking around. The STarwars universe wouldn't survive against Life eater virus or any of the deadlier weapons the imperium or hell what the eldar have.
Star Wars is deeply rooted in reality, 40k is not.
Ahriman at his best casts whole solar systems into the warp.
Disney canon Star Wars characters are considered impressive when they can throw a few tons of rock around and slowly redirect incoming large projectiles.
Kain wrote: Ahriman at his best casts whole solar systems into the warp.
Disney canon Star Wars characters are considered impressive when they can throw a few tons of rock around and slowly redirect incoming large projectiles.
I think Ahriman's got everyone in SW beat.
Agreed. Ahriman is basically if you combined darth sidious or starkiller together forty five times over.
Izural wrote: I've got to say Star Wars. They don't mess around in Star Wars man.
Exterminatus takes multiple bombardments, virus bombs etc, and even then the planet is still there.
Death Star. BOOM. Planet gone. No muss. No fuss.
FTL Travel in Star Wars takes, at most, a week? Warp travel takes FOREVER and is inherently risky, because Warp.
The Sith are not madmen, they are calculating, patient and strike with overwhelming force.
Chaos is just that, Chaos. The Sith empire only needed 1 try each time to get the galaxy to bow to them, what number black crusade are we on?
Furthermore. The Sith "Big Bads" actually have arms, Abaddon.
The big names in Star Wars will most likely win V 40K big names most of the time. As powerful as the Primarchs were, I don't think they could stand up against Revan, Mace Windu, Yoda, Malgus, Grievous, Obi-Wan, Anakin (Both versions), Satele Shan, Basila Shan, Boba Fett etc.
Besides, all this is besides the point. We all know what we'd pay to see.
Rancor V Carnifex.
Fanboy alert.
Primarchs which are literal gods are somehow defeated by a guy with a light saber. Yep totally sounds legit. Sorry let me check the lore for one second. Oh yes it says here that everytime a human were to.. face a Primarch they would A. Instantly die, B. Get extremely fearful C. get mindblasted and have their head literally explode. D. Get ripped limb from limb. E. Get killed in an ambush that was set up somehow.
In a universe where literal gods are walking around. The STarwars universe wouldn't survive against Life eater virus or any of the deadlier weapons the imperium or hell what the eldar have.
Star Wars is deeply rooted in reality, 40k is not.
40k wins due to how ridiculous it is.
Well, there was that one Lucifer Black at the end of Legion who manages to stab Alpharius/Omegon in one of his hearts in a duel... But yeah, he still gets krumped.
The Life Eater kills all biological life. I am talking about why waste valuable resources when you could just drop a bomb and let the life eater virus kill everything on the station?
I'd love to see what trouble Iori Delta Tove would cause. And since it is ALL of 40k, how about the Tyrant Star? Suddenly I hear a parody of Mulan's "I'll make a man out of you", except it's"I'll make a cultist out of you" and your consent is a nonissue.
Note: Star Wars requires a small moon sized space station to blow up a planet. (Im not counting the 1 off super weapons)
Warhammer 40k prefers not to blow up the planet completely (because planets are valuable to the Emperor/Imperium) so they like annihilating everyone on the surface.. BUT if they want to make the planet go away they will use a standard ship-of-the-line battleship (or even smaller craft like Cruisers or even smaller could possibly do it). The standard Imperial "no more planet at all" method is to use the standard issue cyclonic torpedo (a really BIG nuke/missile) then they will strap a Melta charge on the front of it (a nuclear reaction gone meltdown x 10000) to bore to the planets core and go BOOM.
A STANDARD SHIP OF THE LINE can do what the Death Star can. That's like if a Standard Abrams Tank could launch nukes....
THis of course does not cover the total oblideration the Necrons, Eldar, Tyranids, and so on.
Also with hyperspace travel available to small civilian craft, Nurgle can release a plague that will quickly spread to the entirety of the galaxy FFA and kill massive portions of the population with ease. With no ability to understand the warp, Star Wars can not hope to cure Nurgle's gift as the plague lord laughs and massive sections of the galaxy FFA are dragged into the warp as the Lord of Decay claims much of their galaxy. Planets like coruscant will be screwed over within days as people drop dead en masse from the all pervasive rot that should spread like wildfire.
This only leaves the droids left standing, and IA12 shows that the Necrons can completely screw over technology with simple signals like "Maynarkh comes!" that causes all systems to start crashing and failing upon so much as hearing the transmission with the only way to save affected technology to be galvinic purges that heavily damage the affected electronics anyway.
In a one two punch of Nurgle to kill the living and the Necrons to kill the machines; nothing is left standing.
Similarly, Darth Vader is incredibly emotionally insecure. People with deep seated insecurities are exactly the kind of people that Chaos likes to twist and corrupt to bring down empires they find problematic. You could very well see a Vader heresy crippling the Galactic Empire.
And yet 40k would lose if it took on Hulk, Superman and Magneto. Three individuals that would wreck the entirety of 40k. Hell, we'll add Thor in there too and make the numbers a bit more balanced.
timetowaste85 wrote: And yet 40k would lose if it took on Hulk, Superman and Magneto. Three individuals that would wreck the entirety of 40k. Hell, we'll add Thor in there too and make the numbers a bit more balanced.
I can count the number of non-obscure franchises that can handle Superman or Thor at full tilt with my hands.
Hulk can be fairly easily dealt with because he can't fly though. Just ignore the planet he's on and you're golden.
timetowaste85 wrote: I'm pretty sure 40k plot law refuses their ability to ignore a planet. Blowing the planet up that he's on will only make him angrier.
On the other hand, Deadpool killed the Hulk in an AU by simply waiting for him to turn into Banner again and decapitating Banner before he could finish hulking out. Sounds like a job for a Vindicaire.
The Life Eater kills all biological life. I am talking about why waste valuable resources when you could just drop a bomb and let the life eater virus kill everything on the station?
The post you were replying to was part of a discussion on whether Necrons alone could defeat the Star Wars galaxy. Therefore 'the life-eater virus' is not an applicable answer.
Besides, one spark on the station after the virus has run its course and BOOM, no more station.
timetowaste85 wrote: I'm pretty sure 40k plot law refuses their ability to ignore a planet. Blowing the planet up that he's on will only make him angrier.
On the other hand, Deadpool killed the Hulk in an AU by simply waiting for him to turn into Banner again and decapitating Banner before he could finish hulking out. Sounds like a job for a Vindicaire.
Yeah, cuz ''Deadpool Kills the Marvel Universe'' is totally not bias, PIS writing. This is the same comic series were Deadpool simply pulls a Gun on Spiderman and shoots him and explodes the Avengers building, because no one has ever tried that before...
Yeah, don't use this as an example. It is a very, very bad PIS-lanced comic.
sonic ordinus. In the movie, Hulk goes down to sonic weapons on a SMALL scale. and an uparmoured version, properly positioned would be able to kill him.
Mageto is obvious. just send a couple of platoons of unarmed ogyrns at him
Superman, Tyrant star or any other red star. Oh. OR alternatively just hit him with psychic powers, stated he's weak to magic. Or have a naviator give him the third eye.
Thor. Take him down from orbit with either mass drivers, OR energy beams. Whilst his hammer can travel through space, He cannot.
Gamgee wrote: Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann would destroy all of them and even the Q Consortium. So this is all moot really.
TTGL can't defeat Lord English from Homestuck or Unicron in his "destroyer of universes" incarnation.
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Doctadeth wrote: sonic ordinus. In the movie, Hulk goes down to sonic weapons on a SMALL scale. and an uparmoured version, properly positioned would be able to kill him.
Mageto is obvious. just send a couple of platoons of unarmed ogyrns at him
Superman, Tyrant star or any other red star. Oh. OR alternatively just hit him with psychic powers, stated he's weak to magic. Or have a naviator give him the third eye.
Thor. Take him down from orbit with either mass drivers, OR energy beams. Whilst his hammer can travel through space, He cannot.
The movie versions of Marvel and DC characters would be pretty easy to take out given how nerfed they are from the comics.
I wouldn't give the MCU avengers good odds against a few bloodthirsters.
There was a great thread on this a few months back but it either got locked or deleted. General consensus was that these things would obliterate most of what 40k could throw at it
There was a great thread on this a few months back but it either got locked or deleted. General consensus was that these things would obliterate most of what 40k could throw at it
#ponder
The main way to deal with Bolos is to blast them from orbit.
Bolos peter out in the double digit megaton range and so would be largely helpless against capital ships.
They would annihilate everything on the ground short of Imperator titans, C'tan, and war in heaven era gubbinz to be sure though.
There was a great thread on this a few months back but it either got locked or deleted. General consensus was that these things would obliterate most of what 40k could throw at it
#ponder
Just one of those monsters would require something along the lines of orbital bombardment. I doubt even an Imperator Titan could stand up to a MK33.
So, since we've just spent the past couple pages talking about all the stupid high-end stuff in 40k: if all of that really exists then how does an army of normal humans with WWI-level equipment win battles?
I like how on the starwars side of this people keep bringing up weapons and characters from all across the timeline to offer up as proof that SW could win. While on the 40k side everyone has stuck pretty much with just what is on offer during 40k. Star wars doesn't have a single chance against the 41st millennium, I laugh about how bad the SW galaxy is screwed if they went up against humans from the dark age of technology, as well as eldar and/or necrons at their full strength during the war in heaven. or even all the primarchs and every space marine legion during the great crusade.
Peregrine wrote: So, since we've just spent the past couple pages talking about all the stupid high-end stuff in 40k: if all of that really exists then how does an army of normal humans with WWI-level equipment win battles?
Why is anyone in the prequel trilogy still alive after a full power bombardment from an acclamator on some droids in the clone wars cartoon when the ICS says this should be enough to cause a mass extinction event? Or when somebody blithers out a figure of "one hundred megatons" for an artillery bombardment that wouldn't even impress Gorbachev's red army? Or "hundred kiloton" missiles from Republic gunships that are maybe hellfire missile grade in firepower while two armies shoot each other in giant massed blobs just getting for an artillery bombardment.
And the answer is; they lose a lot.
The Imperium lost the battle for the Orpheus sector and barely even slowed the Maynarkh dynasty down, with only one major setback occuring at all when the Death Korps threw itself in a suicide charge at the biggest Necron megalith they could find to nuke it. The Imperial Guard was never even relevant to Ahriman in his pursuit for the power of the black library and if they tried to get involved he'd have incinerated them anyway. Generally speaking, either you find some way to handle Nurgle's sector rotting plagues or you auto-lose.
And similarly if you take from high end feats you get leman russ's with recoil so extreme it'd rip the T-72s I drove in the Russian army in half and lasguns that hit harder than the machine guns on that very self same tank mixed with power swords that could carve that tank of mine like butter and terajoule multimeltas.
Similarly, the Chaos Gods are quite happy with the status quo where everyone lives a life of futility that feeds them endlessly. The Star Wars galaxy's invaders represent a smorgasboard of delicious mortals to corrupt and drag down into the same misery of their chosen playground. That the Empire is filled with hilariously insecure and/or Power Hungry people and that the societies in Star Wars allow for religious freedom would make it trivially easy to cripple Star Wars with Chaos incited civil war.
Kain wrote: Why is anyone in the prequel trilogy still alive after a full power bombardment from an acclamator on some droids in the clone wars cartoon when the ICS says this should be enough to cause a mass extinction event? Or when somebody blithers out a figure of "one hundred megatons" for an artillery bombardment that wouldn't even impress Gorbachev's red army? Or "hundred kiloton" missiles from Republic gunships that are maybe hellfire missile grade in firepower while two armies shoot each other in giant massed blobs just getting for an artillery bombardment.
Because Star Wars fluff is also inconsistent?
The Imperium lost the battle for the Orpheus sector and barely even slowed the Maynarkh dynasty down, with only one major setback occuring at all when the Death Korps threw itself in a suicide charge at the biggest Necron megalith they could find to nuke it.
But the point is the Necrons still lost to a WWI army. If they were as powerful as the high-end fluff claims then the DKoK shouldn't have been able to accomplish anything. But the fact that they did demonstrates that, while the Necrons are clearly better than the WWI-in-space DKoK, their margin of superiority isn't that big.
Necron weaponry is super-advanced, but it still has the basic profile of any projectile weapon. It has an effective range, it has a maximum range, and it has a (theoretically) finite amount of energy with which to kill things with (though every time it kills something it recharges a little bit).
That a Gauss Flayer packs enough power to kill a regular human being 10,000 times over is irrelevant. It's a weapon designed for fighting much, much tougher things than regular humans... so what you end up with is a weapon that is massive overkill when used against WW1-in-space humans, and 99% of your Flayer's killing power is lost in simply making that dead guy even more dead.
Psienesis wrote: That a Gauss Flayer packs enough power to kill a regular human being 10,000 times over is irrelevant. It's a weapon designed for fighting much, much tougher things than regular humans... so what you end up with is a weapon that is massive overkill when used against WW1-in-space humans, and 99% of your Flayer's killing power is lost in simply making that dead guy even more dead.
But that doesn't make much sense. If the gauss flayer is such massive overkill then it shouldn't stop when it hits a single human target and neatly dump all of its energy into overkilling the human without damaging anything nearby. It should tear through the human target and keep going, obliterating whole formations of guardsmen with a single shot. But what we actually see is that Necron weapons are roughly equivalent to Imperial weapons. They're better, but not orders of magnitude better.
Psienesis wrote: That a Gauss Flayer packs enough power to kill a regular human being 10,000 times over is irrelevant. It's a weapon designed for fighting much, much tougher things than regular humans... so what you end up with is a weapon that is massive overkill when used against WW1-in-space humans, and 99% of your Flayer's killing power is lost in simply making that dead guy even more dead.
But that doesn't make much sense. If the gauss flayer is such massive overkill then it shouldn't stop when it hits a single human target and neatly dump all of its energy into overkilling the human without damaging anything nearby. It should tear through the human target and keep going, obliterating whole formations of guardsmen with a single shot. But what we actually see is that Necron weapons are roughly equivalent to Imperial weapons. They're better, but not orders of magnitude better.
The Adeptus Mechanicus in Xenology, one of the portrayals where the Mechanicus is shown as deeply scientifically knowledgeable, gave up trying to figure out how Gauss Flayers work besides "It tears things apart and doesn't correspond to the laws of physics as we understand them". Ergo it's probably a magic gun that works on magical processes that cannot be quantified beyond it's ability to affect tank armor as easily as organic tissue. It's like trying to reconcile a Star Trek phaser's ability to completely vaporize a person with the fact that that much energy should char grill everyone in the room as well. It's a futile gesture.
Kain wrote: The Adeptus Mechanicus in Xenology, one of the portrayals where the Mechanicus is shown as deeply scientifically knowledgeable, gave up trying to figure out how Gauss Flayers work besides "It tears things apart and doesn't correspond to the laws of physics as we understand them". Ergo it's probably a magic gun that works on magical processes that cannot be quantified beyond it's ability to affect tank armor as easily as organic tissue.
So if it's all magic then how do you know how effective it is? Maybe the magic only works on enemies that are native to the 40k universe, and it would be completely useless against anything from Star Wars.
Kain wrote: The Adeptus Mechanicus in Xenology, one of the portrayals where the Mechanicus is shown as deeply scientifically knowledgeable, gave up trying to figure out how Gauss Flayers work besides "It tears things apart and doesn't correspond to the laws of physics as we understand them". Ergo it's probably a magic gun that works on magical processes that cannot be quantified beyond it's ability to affect tank armor as easily as organic tissue.
So if it's all magic then how do you know how effective it is? Maybe the magic only works on enemies that are native to the 40k universe, and it would be completely useless against anything from Star Wars.
In versus debate parlence from Spacebattles.com, all faction's powers are assumed to still work to still allow a debate to take place. Ergo, a Star Trek Phaser, even though it's ability to completely disintegrate a person when doing so should release enough heat to char grill everyone in the room at least, still works on a B1 battle droid even though the only reason the phaser can work at all is "treknobabble magic".
I vote that the groovieness of the canteena band would create peace in the 41st millennium, then they would be swarmed by endless storm troopers in a battle that never ends because they are bs0.
Psienesis wrote: That a Gauss Flayer packs enough power to kill a regular human being 10,000 times over is irrelevant. It's a weapon designed for fighting much, much tougher things than regular humans... so what you end up with is a weapon that is massive overkill when used against WW1-in-space humans, and 99% of your Flayer's killing power is lost in simply making that dead guy even more dead.
But that doesn't make much sense. If the gauss flayer is such massive overkill then it shouldn't stop when it hits a single human target and neatly dump all of its energy into overkilling the human without damaging anything nearby. It should tear through the human target and keep going, obliterating whole formations of guardsmen with a single shot. But what we actually see is that Necron weapons are roughly equivalent to Imperial weapons. They're better, but not orders of magnitude better.
What you expect "reality" to be and what "reality" is are apparently not in synch.
Kain wrote: In versus debate parlence from Spacebattles.com, all faction's powers are assumed to still work to still allow a debate to take place.
Why do I care about the debating rules for some other random forum? That's a sensible rule for something like a Star Wars blaster, which kills you by the conventional approach of blowing holes in your body until something important is destroyed, since even if its operating principles aren't understood all that really matters is how much energy the shot delivers. But if you're going to resort to "it's magic" then you don't get to make assumptions about how that magic works.
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jhe90 wrote: And barely any race equals a space marine boarding action of a entire chapter plus ramming with a full battlebarge.
Probably because no sensible faction bothers with boarding a ship (outside of rare situations where a ship needs to be taken intact), they just shoot it until it is destroyed.
Psienesis wrote: What you expect "reality" to be and what "reality" is are apparently not in synch.
Alternatively, absurd claims like "10,000 times more powerful than any other gun" are simply outliers or empty boasting and shouldn't be taken seriously. If a Necron character brags about how awesome his gun is and how it can destroy everything and then, when he shoots something with it, the effect is barely more than a lasgun or bolter the obvious conclusion is that the Necron's claim is false.
Kain wrote: In versus debate parlence from Spacebattles.com, all faction's powers are assumed to still work to still allow a debate to take place.
Why do I care about the debating rules for some other random forum? That's a sensible rule for something like a Star Wars blaster, which kills you by the conventional approach of blowing holes in your body until something important is destroyed, since even if its operating principles aren't understood all that really matters is how much energy the shot delivers. But if you're going to resort to "it's magic" then you don't get to make assumptions about how that magic works.
Because people want to talk about something even if it's as blatantly nonsensical and hard to quantify as a spell of flesh to stone or a wraith's touch of constitution drain? You can't even guess on what mechanics power that and yet the reasonable assumption is that a Lich's army of the undead from Faerun isn't going to be incapable of working if pitted against the Lannisters from Game of Thrones because that setting has nothing like Faerun's magic system. Otherwise there's no point in the thread and everyone should just go home.
Kain wrote: In versus debate parlence from Spacebattles.com, all faction's powers are assumed to still work to still allow a debate to take place.
Why do I care about the debating rules for some other random forum? That's a sensible rule for something like a Star Wars blaster, which kills you by the conventional approach of blowing holes in your body until something important is destroyed, since even if its operating principles aren't understood all that really matters is how much energy the shot delivers. But if you're going to resort to "it's magic" then you don't get to make assumptions about how that magic works.
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jhe90 wrote: And barely any race equals a space marine boarding action of a entire chapter plus ramming with a full battlebarge.
Probably because no sensible faction bothers with boarding a ship (outside of rare situations where a ship needs to be taken intact), they just shoot it until it is destroyed.
Boarding actions happen all the time in SW. The Tantive IV, the Endar Spire, the Esseles, the Black Talon... just to name a few.
If its a vs match with total cooperation of the 40k forces vs the same in Star Wars then Star Wars loses...
I think a crossover in Darth Vade Emperor Palpatine era Empire would bear much better results.
FYI. ( I've kinda mapped this out in my head. Palpatine would willingly become a daemon prince and half the Galactic Empire would fall into chaos as his servants and he would replace Failbaddon as the "True" Emperor of Mankind and create 14th Black Crusade.
Darth Vader would not allow himself to become a servant of chaos( as he does not want to replace palpatine with yet another master) but would seek an alliance with the IoM forces in order to overthrow the emperor with intentions of ruling it for himself ( of course lying and claiming imperial compliance.)
The Admech would agree to allow the star wars empire to use their own technology in exchange for the secrets to safe faster than light travel and various other tech.
Awesomeness ensues.
Of course they'd have to promise to purge every other species in the Star Wars universe. You know imperial truth and all that.
Doctadeth wrote: sonic ordinus. In the movie, Hulk goes down to sonic weapons on a SMALL scale. and an uparmoured version, properly positioned would be able to kill him.
Mageto is obvious. just send a couple of platoons of unarmed ogyrns at him
Superman, Tyrant star or any other red star. Oh. OR alternatively just hit him with psychic powers, stated he's weak to magic. Or have a naviator give him the third eye.
Thor. Take him down from orbit with either mass drivers, OR energy beams. Whilst his hammer can travel through space, He cannot.
Ogryns suddenly learned how to fly?! And penetrate forcefields with nothing more than thrown rocks? Holy crap!! Clearly, I'm calling that argument ridiculous.
Doctadeth wrote: sonic ordinus. In the movie, Hulk goes down to sonic weapons on a SMALL scale. and an uparmoured version, properly positioned would be able to kill him.
Mageto is obvious. just send a couple of platoons of unarmed ogyrns at him
Superman, Tyrant star or any other red star. Oh. OR alternatively just hit him with psychic powers, stated he's weak to magic. Or have a naviator give him the third eye.
Thor. Take him down from orbit with either mass drivers, OR energy beams. Whilst his hammer can travel through space, He cannot.
Ogryns suddenly learned how to fly?! And penetrate forcefields with nothing more than thrown rocks? Holy crap!! Clearly, I'm calling that argument ridiculous.
He's talking about the Movie versions.
I don't remember if Movie Magneto had a force-field, but he was taken down with a plastic bullet.
Kain wrote: Because people want to talk about something even if it's as blatantly nonsensical and hard to quantify as a spell of flesh to stone or a wraith's touch of constitution drain?
That's nice. But I don't see why your desire to avoid letting the magic-using army lose horribly because its magic doesn't work should be relevant here. "Necrons get punched to death by naked ewoks because their magic guns don't work against anything from outside 40k" is still an answer to the question of who would win, it just isn't the answer you want to have.
Kain wrote: Because people want to talk about something even if it's as blatantly nonsensical and hard to quantify as a spell of flesh to stone or a wraith's touch of constitution drain?
That's nice. But I don't see why your desire to avoid letting the magic-using army lose horribly because its magic doesn't work should be relevant here. "Necrons get punched to death by naked ewoks because their magic guns don't work against anything from outside 40k" is still an answer to the question of who would win, it just isn't the answer you want to have.
Because then there's no point to the debate?
It's like asking if Yoda could beat Mike Tyson in a fist fight but then saying "he doesn't get the force or lightsabers, and he's dead because no animal has lived as long as he did". Or asking if Zeus could defeat the Roman Army only to say "only Zeus isn't in the fight because he's not real."
It's a worthless answer. Much as your contribution to the thread has been. In essence, you're gak posting.
Psienesis wrote: Boarding actions happen all the time in SW. The Tantive IV, the Endar Spire, the Esseles, the Black Talon... just to name a few.
That would be the rare case where a ship needs to be taken intact. Obviously the star destroyer could have killed the Tantive IV without much effort, but the goal was to capture a specific passenger alive. When the goal is to destroy an enemy ship (Endor, for example) Star Wars ships simply shoot each other until one side wins. Space marines, on the other hand, use boarding as a primary method of attacking the enemy even when the goal is simply to destroy the ship.
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Konrax wrote: Especially if getting weapons through powerful shielding.
Why are you assuming that boarding ships can break through shields when bullets/lasers/etc can't? Sending over a transport full of angry guys with chainsaws doesn't help very much if they just bounce off the shields.
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Kain wrote: Because then there's no point to the debate?
Sure there is. For example, a LRBT uses a conventional cannon and we can expect its shells to work just fine against targets from Star Wars. Refusing to grant all of your assumptions about how magic works just means that the Necrons won't be contributing much to this hypothetical war. And, again, not getting the "40k wins" answer that you want to have doesn't mean that there's no point to having the debate. A single Culture civilian transport effortlessly slaughters the entire 40k universe, but the fact that the outcome is a one-sided massacre doesn't mean that we can't have the debate.
Alternatively you could just abandon the "it's magic" claim and accept that gauss weapons are just somewhat more effective bolters/lasguns (based on their demonstrated effects), not magic guns that have 10,000 times the firepower of everything else but always neatly focus it on killing a single human instead of annihilating everything nearby and killing whole squads with a single shot.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: If its a vs match with total cooperation of the 40k forces vs the same in Star Wars then Star Wars loses...
I think a crossover in Darth Vade Emperor Palpatine era Empire would bear much better results.
FYI. ( I've kinda mapped this out in my head. Palpatine would willingly become a daemon prince and half the Galactic Empire would fall into chaos as his servants and he would replace Failbaddon as the "True" Emperor of Mankind and create 14th Black Crusade.
Darth Vader would not allow himself to become a servant of chaos( as he does not want to replace palpatine with yet another master) but would seek an alliance with the IoM forces in order to overthrow the emperor with intentions of ruling it for himself ( of course lying and claiming imperial compliance.)
The Admech would agree to allow the star wars empire to use their own technology in exchange for the secrets to safe faster than light travel and various other tech.
Awesomeness ensues.
Vitiate was a far more terrifying Emperor than Palpatine could ever dream of being. The dude's a chump, and not particularly strong in the Force. Further, he has nothing to offer the Ruinous Power to justify Princedom. He'll need to walk the Path of Glory, the same as any other would-be Champion.
Sure there is. For example, a LRBT uses a conventional cannon and we can expect its shells to work just fine against targets from Star Wars. Refusing to grant all of your assumptions about how magic works just means that the Necrons won't be contributing much to this hypothetical war. And, again, not getting the "40k wins" answer that you want to have doesn't mean that there's no point to having the debate. A single Culture civilian transport effortlessly slaughters the entire 40k universe, but the fact that the outcome is a one-sided massacre doesn't mean that we can't have the debate.
Alternatively you could just abandon the "it's magic" claim and accept that gauss weapons are just somewhat more effective bolters/lasguns (based on their demonstrated effects), not magic guns that have 10,000 times the firepower of everything else but always neatly focus it on killing a single human instead of annihilating everything nearby and killing whole squads with a single shot.
Ah you're one of those people who try to deny that Phasers are allowed to work against Star Wars because Phasers don't make any sense by conventional physics.
We know what a Gauss Gun does, which is arbitrarily disintegrate an arbitrary amount of matter and make it arbitrarily disappear into the ether to never be seen again. It's as arbitrary and physics breaking as a star wars disruptor, or the Sun crusher's magical sunbursting torpedoes, or the complete nonsense of the "Nucleonic chain reactions" of the galaxy gun's torpedoes. Simply because it does not work according to normal physics doesn't invalidate it's usage anymore than Mjolnir not making a lick of sense mean that Thor's not allowed to party with Sauron or that the One Ring is forbidden from corrupting the Dragonborn who isn't allowed to use his shouts either.
And would you stop cowardly quoting only the sections you wish to respond to? Nitpicking is, as I would hope you are aware of; poor debate form. Engage the whole point or do not engage at all. Refusal to do so will be taken as a concession that you are unwilling to properly contribute to the thread as per the parameters set by the OP and thus a concession that you have forfeited the debate.
Kain wrote: Ah you're one of those people who try to deny that Phasers are allowed to work against Star Wars because Phasers don't make any sense by conventional physics.
That depends on what the explanation for phasers is. If you want to claim that phasers neatly disintegrate a single person because that's the upper limit of their energy per shot then fine, we can speculate about how much damage they'd do against Star Wars targets. But if you try to claim that phasers magically have massively more firepower and could easily kill a star destroyer with a single shot then I can just as legitimately claim that the magic would only work on Star Trek targets because it depends on the target having Star Trek DNA.
We know what a Gauss Gun does, which is arbitrarily disintegrate an arbitrary amount of matter and make it arbitrarily disappear into the ether to never be seen again.
And you're missing the point there. The claim was that the gauss weapon is massive overkill against a single guardsman and dumps thousands of times more firepower than necessary into that overkill without doing any damage outside of that single target. IOW, "infantry gauss weapons have the firepower of a titan's main gun, they just choose to limit its effectiveness to somewhat more than a bolter because magic". The obvious conclusion here is that infantry gauss weapons are slightly more effective than a bolter, and Necron bragging about how awesome they are is just empty boasting.
And would you stop quoting only the sections you wish to respond to?
No. I will continue quoting only the parts I'm actually responding to and not generate pointless walls of text, just like I removed your rule #1 violation from the quote above. Feel free to leave this thread if you don't like it.
Actually, I recall reading somewhere that Gauss isn't the beam going from the gun to the target, it's the beam going from the target to the gun, thereby preventing the overkill effect of going through other guys.
Gotta give it to 40k. The have more consistently higher tier fluff than SW, and a lot of SW stuff has been invalidated by the new movie coming out. And besides, what stops the SW universe suffering the blatant handicaps Peregrine is putting on the 40k universe?
Lightsabers? Nope. Doesn't exist in 40k.
Force? Lol.
Laser blasters? Good luck hitting with the poor accuracy Storm Troopers seem to demonstrate. Or are the films not canon?
The only way this works is by why Kain has said: all parties get all assets described, with certain traits that are frequently mentioned, regardless of real-world-physics, being of paramount importance.
It's not really empty boasting, since those very same weapons were used to kill star-gods and who-knows-what-else in the War in Heaven.
You're conflating the rules of the table-top and the fact that this has to be a game where all factions have a chance against the other factions with whatever it is they pack with the fluff provided for the faction (which more than justifies its claims, taking, what, 30 planets in 100 days or something crazy?).
Otherwise, Codex: Necrons would be a very short book: "One day, the Necrons woke up and ended all life in the galaxy. Now, the only sound heard amongst the dim stars is the screech of Gauss weapons as the mad Phaerons send endless tides of their nigh-immortal troops against their rivals. The end."
Lightsabers? Nope. Doesn't exist in 40k.
Those do, actually. Sollex-pattern powersword. It does away with the physical blade entirely and has just a blade-shaped field of matter-destabilizing energy.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: If its a vs match with total cooperation of the 40k forces vs the same in Star Wars then Star Wars loses...
I think a crossover in Darth Vade Emperor Palpatine era Empire would bear much better results.
FYI. ( I've kinda mapped this out in my head. Palpatine would willingly become a daemon prince and half the Galactic Empire would fall into chaos as his servants and he would replace Failbaddon as the "True" Emperor of Mankind and create 14th Black Crusade.
Darth Vader would not allow himself to become a servant of chaos( as he does not want to replace palpatine with yet another master) but would seek an alliance with the IoM forces in order to overthrow the emperor with intentions of ruling it for himself ( of course lying and claiming imperial compliance.)
The Admech would agree to allow the star wars empire to use their own technology in exchange for the secrets to safe faster than light travel and various other tech.
Awesomeness ensues.
Vitiate was a far more terrifying Emperor than Palpatine could ever dream of being. The dude's a chump, and not particularly strong in the Force. Further, he has nothing to offer the Ruinous Power to justify Princedom. He'll need to walk the Path of Glory, the same as any other would-be Champion.
Nay my friend it is not his power that would make him the face of chaos but rather his influence. As an already established"emperor" he has the ability to lead astray both those who blindly follow the empire of the star wars universe as well as being able to claim that he is the emperor returned w
Show the true path to imperial truth and lead the simple faithed imperium inhabitants of 40k. The resulting split would be very pleasurable to dark gods as they have thrown their own universe even further into the far, and created endless war in another galaxy as well.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Actually, I recall reading somewhere that Gauss isn't the beam going from the gun to the target, it's the beam going from the target to the gun, thereby preventing the overkill effect of going through other guys.
So why not aim at a target at the back of the formation of infantry?
And besides, what stops the SW universe suffering the blatant handicaps Peregrine is putting on the 40k universe?
I'm not putting any handicaps on 40k, I'm just limiting 40k weapons to what they have demonstrated, not exaggerated fanboy claims about how awesome they are. And by that standard infantry gauss weapons are somewhat more effective than other 40k infantry weapons, but not orders of magnitude better. But if you want to claim that gauss weapons are magically 10,000 times better than their demonstrated firepower against guardsmen and just magically limit themselves to only killing a single guardsman per shot then I could just as easily claim that gauss magic only works against 40k targets. "It's magic, it does whatever I want it to" works both ways.
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Psienesis wrote: Otherwise, Codex: Necrons would be a very short book: "One day, the Necrons woke up and ended all life in the galaxy. Now, the only sound heard amongst the dim stars is the screech of Gauss weapons as the mad Phaerons send endless tides of their nigh-immortal troops against their rivals. The end."
Well yes, that's exactly what it would be if the high-end claims of Necron power were true. The fact that the fluff doesn't show this happening means that those claims must be false. After all, which is more likely: that the Necrons could effortlessly end all non-Necron life but choose to kill stuff the hard way, or that Necrons simply aren't capable of doing the things they boast about.
Psienesis wrote: ... until he gets Wrathed like Vandire did. You think the Sisters are going to follow Palpatine? The Templars?
Hell, Bjorn could be like "*sniff* Nope, not him."
Obviously no( except actually there might be an order or two that would follow him. Never know.)
It would some of the main populace, some less careful SM chapters, and guard regiments . That would be fooled not the inquisition, grey knights, etc.
It would be almost be as bad for 40k as the Horus Heresy was. It certainly would be for the Star Wars galaxy.
Remember chaos enjoys the fight as it is part of the great game they play. The fact that both sides were equally swelled with proponents from the star wars galaxy when it was discovered was a + in their eyes.
Well, most SM Chapters (not all, but most) don't worship the Emperor as a god. They really wouldn't care.
Two, the average battle-psyker or Librarian is leaps and bounds more powerful than Palpatine when it comes to doing magic tricks. For a guy supposedly the most powerful psyker to ever exist, Palpatine doesn't have the cred to pose as the Emperor Reborn.
Three, they have tests that can determine if someone is corrupted, as well as psykers that can simply yank the info out of someone's head.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: If its a vs match with total cooperation of the 40k forces vs the same in Star Wars then Star Wars loses...
I think a crossover in Darth Vade Emperor Palpatine era Empire would bear much better results.
FYI. ( I've kinda mapped this out in my head. Palpatine would willingly become a daemon prince and half the Galactic Empire would fall into chaos as his servants and he would replace Failbaddon as the "True" Emperor of Mankind and create 14th Black Crusade.
Darth Vader would not allow himself to become a servant of chaos( as he does not want to replace palpatine with yet another master) but would seek an alliance with the IoM forces in order to overthrow the emperor with intentions of ruling it for himself ( of course lying and claiming imperial compliance.)
The Admech would agree to allow the star wars empire to use their own technology in exchange for the secrets to safe faster than light travel and various other tech.
Awesomeness ensues.
Of course they'd have to promise to purge every other species in the Star Wars universe. You know imperial truth and all that.
Hyperspace isn't guaranteed to be better than Warp Travel. There is Hyperspace in 40K, the Necrons have access to it, only they avoid it like the plague as it has been infested with Daemons.
If you can think of something brilliant that makes the Imperium look completely idiotic for not attempting, the answer is almost always "daemons".
Also, Palpatine in 40K is not a significantly notable individual. He reached his peak in Dark Empire where through a Sith Artifact he could unleash force storms that ravaged entire fleets... but this isn't even close to the power level of an Alpha Psyker. By this logic, every Alpha Psyker should instantly become a Daemon Prince if Palpatine's fairly humble powers in comparison were enough to warrant instantaneous exaltation. And better yet, he can't even control those force storms with any level of finesse. Remember he died thanks to one.
Those do, actually. Sollex-pattern powersword. It does away with the physical blade entirely and has just a blade-shaped field of matter-destabilizing energy.
Ah, forgot about that! Still, it shouldn't count it as a lightsaber unless we count lasguns as blaster rifles in SW. Which I don't think we were doing. My point was that if certain devices in 40K are moot, why are SW stuff still legit?
Peregrine wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Actually, I recall reading somewhere that Gauss isn't the beam going from the gun to the target, it's the beam going from the target to the gun, thereby preventing the overkill effect of going through other guys.
So why not aim at a target at the back of the formation of infantry?
You still need LOS? Or, it's just spess-magic which doesn't require knowledge of how it works, only that it does?
And besides, what stops the SW universe suffering the blatant handicaps Peregrine is putting on the 40k universe?
I'm not putting any handicaps on 40k, I'm just limiting 40k weapons to what they have demonstrated, not exaggerated fanboy claims about how awesome they are. And by that standard infantry gauss weapons are somewhat more effective than other 40k infantry weapons, but not orders of magnitude better. But if you want to claim that gauss weapons are magically 10,000 times better than their demonstrated firepower against guardsmen and just magically limit themselves to only killing a single guardsman per shot then I could just as easily claim that gauss magic only works against 40k targets. "It's magic, it does whatever I want it to" works both ways.
Have 40k weapons not demonstrated abilities that would utterly outclass whatever SW can throw at it? Yes. Necrons, Chaos, Tyranids. And that is assuming that the AM don't do it first.
Gauss has been described as "stripping a target down to nothing molecule by molecule, reducing it to its constituent atoms in a matter of seconds" and "known to hurt monstrous creatures that similar weapons have no hope of even scratching, and have also been documented tearing at the armour of even the most heavily armoured of tanks and starship hulls with ease". They are noted by the AdMech to be "a seeming mathematical impossibility". I think that would suffice?
If we want to use the "It's magic, it does whatever I want it to" approach, I could invalidate SW in exactly the same way. So let's not do that, shall we?
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Psienesis wrote: Otherwise, Codex: Necrons would be a very short book: "One day, the Necrons woke up and ended all life in the galaxy. Now, the only sound heard amongst the dim stars is the screech of Gauss weapons as the mad Phaerons send endless tides of their nigh-immortal troops against their rivals. The end."
Well yes, that's exactly what it would be if the high-end claims of Necron power were true. The fact that the fluff doesn't show this happening means that those claims must be false. After all, which is more likely: that the Necrons could effortlessly end all non-Necron life but choose to kill stuff the hard way, or that Necrons simply aren't capable of doing the things they boast about.
World Engine and Orpheus Sector. Fine examples of Necrons steamrolling Imperial forces.
Many Necrons Lords are very reclusive, not taking advantage of their strength unless threatened. Others, like Nemesor Zahndrekh, don't see humanity as something to kill mercilessly, but treat them as equals.
There can be no denying that Necrons are leagues above SW forces. The War in Heaven is proof of this. Has any force in SW (and I would honestly like to know as it would be awesome) killed a race of Gods?
Wyzilla wrote: Hyperspace isn't guaranteed to be better than Warp Travel.
So the ability to cross the galaxy in a few hours (days at most) with no randomly misplaced (in space and/or time) ships isn't guaranteed to be better? That's a huge strategic advantage, allowing the Star Wars forces to put their fleets wherever they need to be and run circles around the 40k side.
If you can think of something brilliant that makes the Imperium look completely idiotic for not attempting, the answer is almost always "daemons".
So the Imperium doesn't design a new version of the LRBT with a proper suspension and more than an inch of ground clearance because of demons? Sorry, but the unavoidable conclusion is that the Imperium is really stupid.
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Sgt_Smudge wrote: Or, it's just spess-magic which doesn't require knowledge of how it works, only that it does?
And what it does is kill people a bit more effectively than a lasgun or bolter. The bizarre claims of "10,000 times more powerful" are entirely based on "how it works" arguments about Necron technology being clearly superior.
Gauss has been described as "stripping a target down to nothing molecule by molecule, reducing it to its constituent atoms in a matter of seconds" and "known to hurt monstrous creatures that similar weapons have no hope of even scratching, and have also been documented tearing at the armour of even the most heavily armoured of tanks and starship hulls with ease".
So what? Dead is dead, whether you're stripped down molecule by molecule or just incinerated by a laser shot. Whatever fancy technology might be behind those gauss shots the end result is roughly equivalent to everyone else's weapons.
World Engine and Orpheus Sector. Fine examples of Necrons steamrolling Imperial forces.
You mean the same Orpheus where the Necrons lost a battle to a suicide charge from a WWI army? If they were really as powerful as you claim then the DKoK would not have won that battle.
The Star Wars universe of fiction is premised upon, "factions that have the potential to conquer the entire galaxy", whereas the 40k universe is premised on "factions that have the potential to end all other sentient life in the galaxy". Where Star Wars antagonists are sociopathic megalomaniacs enshrined in the "Cult of Me", 40k antagonists are full-on genocidal psychopaths that just want to end life as we all know it. Hell, half of the protagonists are totally indifferent to the lives of the common folk.
In Star Wars, the bad guys use weapons of mass destruction to intimidate the rest of the galaxy to fall in line. In 40k, the bad guys use weapons of mass destruction to kill off the rest of the galaxy, so they don't have to worry about anyone falling in line.
The way the fluff is written, by the way, ultimately, the Necron will all wake up and this galaxy will no longer be at war (because they'll just kill everyone else), except perhaps the Eldar who will futz off somewhere in their fancy craftworlds and in the Webway. It might seem like a long time for them to wake up, but it's all in the relative scope of things. They've been asleep for millions of years, right? So what's another thousand or two of yawning.
I think to avoid needless arguments we should find a common ground between the SW universe and the 40k universe. If I had to throw my vote, I'd put it towards 40k but let's come up with a standard.
What time period are we talking about in both universes?
Who is participating in these battles? Heroes/Characters
How large are the estimated fleets? Ships/army forces
How formidable are the weapons?
Let's also stick to 'facts' regarding how powerful something is based on the agreed upon fluff and not speculative. For example: The Emperor winning an arm wrestling contest with Khorne because he's so l33t. There is no reference anywhere of that. It doesn't stand.
With that said let's come up with the 'grunts'/foot soldiers of each faction. Who would step forth?
IoM - Imperial Guard
Eldar - Guardians
Orks - Boyz
Tyranids - Guants
etc.
Also, I find it hilarious how Peregrine is foaming at the mouth over 40K's "WWI tactics' (when such armies are a literal drop in the ocean), when Star Wars does one even worse and is often caught practicing Napoleonic Warfare.
And this isn't even endemic to the EU. This pops up in the TCW, with only at the end of the war the Republic beginning to understand the concept of something called "cover".
Wyzilla wrote: Hyperspace isn't guaranteed to be better than Warp Travel.
So the ability to cross the galaxy in a few hours (days at most) with no randomly misplaced (in space and/or time) ships isn't guaranteed to be better? That's a huge strategic advantage, allowing the Star Wars forces to put their fleets wherever they need to be and run circles around the 40k side.
And what if they can't use their hyperspace in the 40k universe? What then?
If you can think of something brilliant that makes the Imperium look completely idiotic for not attempting, the answer is almost always "daemons".
So the Imperium doesn't design a new version of the LRBT with a proper suspension and more than an inch of ground clearance because of demons? Sorry, but the unavoidable conclusion is that the Imperium is really stupid.
Or the AdMech are dicks. Also,
Spoiler:
"The Mechanicus does NOT have the technology. They haven't been living on some fancy paradise planet since pre-Fall. Mars is an anarchic nightmare shithole the moment you leave the safe zones into the kilometres of labyrinthine corridors beneath it full of rogue machinery, self-aware and malevolent AI from before the Fall, and the daemon programs of the Heresy. EVERYTHING in the databases is fethed. The databases are fragmented over the entire surface to the extent that it would be impossible to see one tenth of the total files in the ludicrously extended life of a Magos even assuming that they are completely safe to visit. And they are not.
The files have been corrupted into madness by the Fall, and the unleashing of the most potent informational warfare systems ever to exist to defeat the Iron Men. Nearly all of Mars was rendered uninhabitable, what they live in now is built on the top of the ruins. They send archeotech expeditions in to find gak, nearly all of them never come back. The sheer number of rogue war machine running around in there is sufficient to rape the mind. Then came the Heresy, which was not earth-exclusive. Mars as the second most critical planet in the Imperium was the site of fighting nearly as ferocious as on Terra, with Mechanicus loyalists and Hereteks fighting tooth, nail, and mechadendrite everywhere. Ancient machines were unleashed, viruses both normal and daemonic unleashed into all the computer systems. Nearly every single stored record on Mars was rendered unusable, and those that survived are half the time self-aware and don't like you, or daemonic and actively try to kill you.
If you come back with a schematic, it is almost certainly gibberish, and if it isn't, it's probably corrupted into uselessness. If it does come back whole it was probably malevolently fethed with so that instead of a Lasgun power cell it's a fething grenade set to detonate the second you finish building it. Why do you think they want off-world STCs so damned much if they had them all here? The fething Heresy is why. Off-world they only have to contend with the Fall's war and its effects on the machinery plus twenty thousand years of degradation with no maintenance. But at least off-world it'll probably just not work instead of actively seeking to kill you.
Why do you think they seek to placate the Machine Spirit? It's because it exists. The fragments of trillions of self-aware programs, flourishing during the Dark Age of Technology and shattered by Man in his war with the Iron men, imprisoning the few who had not set themselves irrevocably into the machinery, a prison smashed wide open by the Heresy. Everything that can hold programming in the Imperium has a shard of a program in it. EVERYTHING. And you'd better fething please it or it will do everything in its power to make your day gak. Sure, if it's a Lasgun it'll just not work or start shooting off rounds by itself, but if you piss off a Land Raider you can say bye-bye to half a continent. They apply these principles to things without spirits by habit, since they're so used to dealing with tanks that if not talked to just right might go rogue and annihilate the Manufactorum before they can be killed.
This is why they do not like ANYONE fething with technology, because it is so rare to find anything that just works it is critical it not be compromised. That, and they do not have the actual knowledge to feth with it intelligently, just through experimentation, which inevitably leads to slaughter. Pressing buttons to see what works is fine in a 21st century computer, but it is a very stupid thing to do at the helm of a 410th century starship with the destructive power to end solar systems. The entire knowledge base of humanity was lost. Not forgotten, but outright lost. Everything at all, poof. Nobody knows anything because the Fall fethed everything up and the Heresy double-fethed it. To rebuild the theoretical framework needed to design new technologies that don't kill everyone near them would require starting from the ground up. They don't have the time, they never have, and they never will.
This gets on to the point of war and what it does to technology. Someone will parrot that it makes it go much faster. Yes, it makes practical applications of technology go much faster. It also utterly stops all research on the scientific theories behind those technologies. This means that when war chugs along for a decade or two things get done. It means when it goes on too long you run out of theories to turn into technologies, and then you run out of technologies to apply. You stagnate. When you have been fighting in a war for survival in a drastically overextended empire, this is what happens. You are desperate for any extra materiel that can possibly be produced. Half your entire fething military might went rogue, smashed the half that stayed, leaving you with the tattered shreds of a war machine to keep hold of an empire that was reaching straining point with an army far larger. There is no time for the sort of applied research programs that took Man twenty five thousand years to develop, in a time of unprecedented growth and prosperity.
This is also why the Adeptus Mechanicus insists on cargo cultism. It's because when you are dealing with things you barely understand because everything you knew about them was destroyed it is the safest and most reliable option. The rituals do not exists for mysticism, they exist because they are the most practical means of building, repairing and maintaining the equipment they have with the knowledge surviving. You don't understand why pressing that button makes it go, because the manual tried to take over your brain and the copies are all unreadable and the research base that would let you reverse-engineer it does not exist and cannot be built.
Why are the Tau doing so well with their technology? Because they had peace. Eight thousand years unmolested by any enemy and they were helped the entire time by the most advanced biological race in the galaxy. Give the Imperium eight thousand years of peace and I can guarantee you it will be harder than it was during the Great Crusade.
Since some still don't get the idea, try this:
Build a library, fill it with all human knowledge. You take it elsewhere when you need a book from it, but the book is only a simplified copy. You don't understand the real book, and you don't need to. Nobody takes the real books anywhere because why would you, when there's a whole library there?
Now that library goes rogue and the maintenance machinery starts killing everyone any-fething-where near it. Where the feth did they all come from, you swear to god there weren't this many, and there weren't because they're using the library's information to fight their war. The government fights a battle that destroys the planet against these robots and tears apart the library to stop them using it, only to be destroyed in the process. The library is leveled, cast into flames, every book burned and every computer virus-laden.
Then comes a man who worked there. He talks to the few surviving library workers, assembles their information, and starts rebuilding a city around the library and expanding it as the librarians find little scraps of paper and fragmented bits of files that stuck together just right read something. They rebuild a library from scrap on the ashes of the old. It isn't a shadow on the glory of the old, but it is all they have.
Then the city turns on itself, kills its master, and the librarians turn to rage. Half of them kill the other half and destroy the remnants of the library because where they're going they won't need science. Everything burns, and the city is left to a scattered few survivors, walls open to the world, with the hungry predators circling.
The Adeptus Mechanicus is the sole surviving librarian, desperately scrabbling through the ashes of paper and splinters of hard drives for anything to help him and the city he needs to survive just a second longer.
The Imperium isn't grim because things suck by choice and could be fine if a sensible person came along. That sensible person wouldn't survive fifty seconds of the reality. The Imperium is grim because every single gak decision, every single sacrifice, every single death, every single man woman and child suffering a gak life in the worst conditions imaginable, is the absolute best that can be done. It is a study of the worst happening to everyone and what part of your humanity must be sacrificed today just to stand a chance of survival, and all it asks is whether or not it would have perhaps been better to die."
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Sgt_Smudge wrote: Or, it's just spess-magic which doesn't require knowledge of how it works, only that it does?
And what it does is kill people a bit more effectively than a lasgun or bolter. The bizarre claims of "10,000 times more powerful" are entirely based on "how it works" arguments about Necron technology being clearly superior.
Did you not read my evidence of Gauss Flayers, basic Necron weapons, stripping targets down on the molecular level? That seems rather more powerful than laser weapons and explosive bolt rounds.
Gauss has been described as "stripping a target down to nothing molecule by molecule, reducing it to its constituent atoms in a matter of seconds" and "known to hurt monstrous creatures that similar weapons have no hope of even scratching, and have also been documented tearing at the armour of even the most heavily armoured of tanks and starship hulls with ease".
So what? Dead is dead, whether you're stripped down molecule by molecule or just incinerated by a laser shot. Whatever fancy technology might be behind those gauss shots the end result is roughly equivalent to everyone else's weapons.
So humans are the only things fighting in this situation? And anything over that strength is useless? Right. So according to that logic, lascannons have the same strength as blaster rifles as they can both kill humans.
What makes Gauss better is that it can kill targets tougher than other rifles of a similar type, beating blaster rifles hands down.
World Engine and Orpheus Sector. Fine examples of Necrons steamrolling Imperial forces.
You mean the same Orpheus where the Necrons lost a battle to a suicide charge from a WWI army? If they were really as powerful as you claim then the DKoK would not have won that battle.
Meat grinder DKoK. There so many Kriegsmen and they were using a tactic which the Necrons would've deemed suicidal, so wouldn't have prepared for it. No force in SW can muster the suicidal nature to do what the DKoK did, and the manpower to do it.
Psienesis wrote: Boarding actions happen all the time in SW. The Tantive IV, the Endar Spire, the Esseles, the Black Talon... just to name a few.
That would be the rare case where a ship needs to be taken intact. Obviously the star destroyer could have killed the Tantive IV without much effort, but the goal was to capture a specific passenger alive. When the goal is to destroy an enemy ship (Endor, for example) Star Wars ships simply shoot each other until one side wins. Space marines, on the other hand, use boarding as a primary method of attacking the enemy even when the goal is simply to destroy the ship.
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Konrax wrote: Especially if getting weapons through powerful shielding.
Why are you assuming that boarding ships can break through shields when bullets/lasers/etc can't? Sending over a transport full of angry guys with chainsaws doesn't help very much if they just bounce off the shields.
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Kain wrote: Because then there's no point to the debate?
Sure there is. For example, a LRBT uses a conventional cannon and we can expect its shells to work just fine against targets from Star Wars. Refusing to grant all of your assumptions about how magic works just means that the Necrons won't be contributing much to this hypothetical war. And, again, not getting the "40k wins" answer that you want to have doesn't mean that there's no point to having the debate. A single Culture civilian transport effortlessly slaughters the entire 40k universe, but the fact that the outcome is a one-sided massacre doesn't mean that we can't have the debate.
Alternatively you could just abandon the "it's magic" claim and accept that gauss weapons are just somewhat more effective bolters/lasguns (based on their demonstrated effects), not magic guns that have 10,000 times the firepower of everything else but always neatly focus it on killing a single human instead of annihilating everything nearby and killing whole squads with a single shot.
Depends on the factors that make up shielding. I'm assuming that because the pods move at a much lower velocity and aren't energy based it will be ignored by shielding (common in 40k).
Star wars has no shielding so there is no debate there.
Star trek does and theirs I believe will allow no objects through, however their ships seem far more fragile once shields are down.
Difficult to say because a star trek shield and a 40k void shield seem to behave differently..
The difference is that SW ships are practically made of glass once their shields drop, while wh40k ships still can take a beating after their shields drop.
As for boarding SW ships, teleporting will bypass SW shields.
Tyran wrote: The difference is that SW ships are practically made of glass once their shields drop, while wh40k ships still can take a beating after their shields drop.
As for boarding SW ships, teleporting will bypass SW shields.
Well they don't have any counter measures thats for sure to teleporting. The crews of the ships will be doing fine but once the imperial or whatever fleet the starwars fleets are facing would meet their ships would be torn apart by the fighters of the imperium which are are as large as normal starwars ships. Not to mention that the gravity wells that the imperial vessels would probably create would cause most of the starwars fleets to have to rapidly recalculate. Not to mention also that star ship battles in 40k are over hundreds of thousands of kilometers. As presented in battle field gothic, and the artwork yet again being shown to be propaganda while the battlefleet gothic battles are over kilometres while the starwars ships are up close and personal. Which is something the Imperium only does if it is completely desperate.
Not to also mention the Nova Cannons or the various weapons that a single ship in an imperial fleet has.
Also forgetting to mention the attack craft that are basically part of the arsenal of almost every single ship in the imperium having flight decks for various fighters. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Attack_Craft)
From Star Hawks to Fury Inteceptors to Shark Assualt Boats the imperiums defense network for defending their ships are various.
Tyran wrote: The difference is that SW ships are practically made of glass once their shields drop, while wh40k ships still can take a beating after their shields drop.
As for boarding SW ships, teleporting will bypass SW shields.
SW ships also engage each other at quite literally point blank range, relative to space. I mean, they can see each other out the viewports for crying out loud. Heck, sometimes they even come to within a few hundred feet.
40k ships engage each other at hundreds of thousands of kilometers.
Interesting that the significantly automated Executor Star Destroyer still has three times the crew of the mostly pulley-power Mars-class Battlecruiser.
Furyou Miko wrote: Interesting that the significantly automated Executor Star Destroyer still has three times the crew of the mostly pulley-power Mars-class Battlecruiser.
What?
You mean apart from the fact that there is only three executor class star ships that the Imperial Empire has?
While there are more giant ships in the imperium such as the star forts, or the more ancient Cult Mechanicus worldships.
Furyou Miko wrote: Interesting that the significantly automated Executor Star Destroyer still has three times the crew of the mostly pulley-power Mars-class Battlecruiser.
Probably due to Galactic Empire ships counting troops among the crew. The GE doesn't separate the Navy from the Army in the same manner as the Imperium.
Furyou Miko wrote: Interesting that the significantly automated Executor Star Destroyer still has three times the crew of the mostly pulley-power Mars-class Battlecruiser.
What?
You mean apart from the fact that there is only three executor class star ships that the Imperial Empire has?
While there are more giant ships in the imperium such as the star forts, or the more ancient Cult Mechanicus worldships.
That has absolutely nothing to do with the number of crew it requires.
The Executor is three times the size of the Mars class. You'd expect it to need three times the crew... if both ships used a similar level of automation.
However, far more of the Executor's systems are going to be automated than the Mars', because the Galactic Empire employs droids and targeting computers and automated loading sequences, while the Mars class does most everything by slave labour.
Wyzilla probably has a point regarding troops - the Mars' crew probably includes its fighter pilots, but the Mars isn't a troop transport and doesn't have a complement of marines aboard, while the Executor has a dedicated security/landing force aboard.
Can I first just say thank you, this thread is getting me through a long night at work better than red bull!
Im gonna throw my opinion out because I know nothing about SWtbh :/... after abit of googling, it seems that the SW armies would run and hide if faced with a determined SM drop pod assault, or IG invasion.
If you read any codex the level of violence that the 40k armies put out in a fight seems too much for the SW soldiers to handle. especially as they seem to only be armed with laser guns and have a serious lack of close combat ability compared to the 8ft superhuman killing machine of the SMs.
Then that picture is wrong, because the Mars is ten miles long (the nova cannon is 1/10th the length of the ship, and the nova cannon is 1 mile long)... and it shows the Executor as being three times that. Thirty miles is not nineteen kilometres.
Furyou Miko wrote: Then that picture is wrong, because the Mars is ten miles long (the nova cannon is 1/10th the length of the ship, and the nova cannon is 1 mile long)... and it shows the Executor as being three times that. Thirty miles is not nineteen kilometres.
Well it's not like Imperial ship length is nailed down. A "battleship" can range anywhere in 40k from a seven kilometer respectable frigate to some ungodly twenty kilometer long behemoth flagship of a Primarch.
Also those scale pictures are almost never correct.
Depends on who and when you ask. This ship has been rated between 8 and 80km since its first appearance (at one point, it was stated to be 10 times longer than the Star Destroyers escorting it, which were said to be 8km each.).
Psienesis wrote: Well, the Executor-class ships *are* 15km long. That it has a crew complement six digits high does not, in any way, surprise me.
However, they only ever built something like 4 of these, and at least 1 has been destroyed.
Executor Class Star Destroyers are nineteen kilometers long. Not fifteen.
There's more like 15 or 20 of them over the span of the novels. As for the length there has been 3 different figures for their lengths quoted in technical manuals and the novels! I remember a lengthy thread bout it years ago because it was the point that I realised Star Wars was tripping up over its own facts -inevitable result of too many authors working on a universe that is constantly being increased. 40k isn't much better for that matter.
Psienesis wrote: Well, the Executor-class ships *are* 15km long. That it has a crew complement six digits high does not, in any way, surprise me.
However, they only ever built something like 4 of these, and at least 1 has been destroyed.
Executor Class Star Destroyers are nineteen kilometers long. Not fifteen.
There's more like 15 or 20 of them over the span of the novels. As for the length there has been 3 different figures for their lengths quoted in technical manuals and the novels! I remember a lengthy thread bout it years ago because it was the point that I realised Star Wars was tripping up over its own facts -inevitable result of too many authors working on a universe that is constantly being increased. 40k isn't much better for that matter.
Which aren't canon anymore. See the novels turned into spank fiction where it was trying to be bigger and better and try to outdo the movies and such. I don't trust the novels of starwars at all.
Honestly if you wanted a non-biased answer you would have to ask this on a site that is not mainly devoted to 40k fans. But then again looking in my sig you can see my Star Wars Imperial codex which probably means Im biased towards star wars too.
L
Re: Star Dreadnoughts ...and can withstand firepower from half a fleet, or be crippled by 2 starfighters...take your pick. I always say enjoy sci-fi for what it is, because a considerable amount of it doesn't hold up under scrutiny.
Psienesis wrote: Well, the Executor-class ships *are* 15km long. That it has a crew complement six digits high does not, in any way, surprise me.
However, they only ever built something like 4 of these, and at least 1 has been destroyed.
Executor Class Star Destroyers are nineteen kilometers long. Not fifteen.
There's more like 15 or 20 of them over the span of the novels. As for the length there has been 3 different figures for their lengths quoted in technical manuals and the novels! I remember a lengthy thread bout it years ago because it was the point that I realised Star Wars was tripping up over its own facts -inevitable result of too many authors working on a universe that is constantly being increased. 40k isn't much better for that matter.
I probably didn't read those novels. I have to admit that I left the EU behind a long, long time ago (shut it!), before the release of the prequels, even, after having read... gods, I don't even remember what it was, I think one of the Young Jedi series my housemate had laying around, and it was 8-year-olds just repeating the famous one-liners of their parents. Seriously. 8-year-olds, dude.
I'm told that the YJ series got better once they weren't so young anymore, but I had stopped caring before that point and didn't touch anything SW related until the prequels. And those were horrible. It wasn't until TCW that some modicum of interest in the franchise was rekindled.
FFG works (which have a much bleaker and pragmatic view of 40k) angle more so towards the idea that machine spirits exist on the highest level of technology (I.e. land raiders, cogitators) but aren't present in the more mundane things.
ADB's book depict most high level machine spirits as being A.I. with a different name.
FFG works (which have a much bleaker and pragmatic view of 40k) angle more so towards the idea that machine spirits exist on the highest level of technology (I.e. land raiders, cogitators) but aren't present in the more mundane things.
ADB's book depict most high level machine spirits as being A.I. with a different name.
Most times yes.
Hence why I do not use novels as a source. Unless everyone agrees it is lore. ADB's usually falling in my category of lore that is trustworthy.
Psienesis wrote: Though even ADB will tell you that he will ignore the writings of another BL author if said writings don't line up with how ADB views the setting.
True. Which is what I do. I mean CS Goto is as a narrator is terrible and boring.
As someone who has not read a single SW novel and has only experienced SW in what has shown up in film and animated TV. Also whos only experience with 40K is the lore in the codexs and main rule book I think its safe to say 40K universe would kick starwars universe butt.
However, all that really happens is that the universe of conflict gets bigger. As the OP said, all of 40K is invading SW, but all of 40K has the same infighting as it always has. Thus more planets get obliterated, more ork spores invade SW planets, more Necron solar system destroying buttons are found on the big control panel of fate. The SW universe fights bravely, but how can anyone hope to fight on 12 different fronts and win, even when the other guys stop shooting at you for a short time. Its just too much, and probably the only reason it gets dragged out as long as it does.
I still find it hilarious guardsmen armed with ironswords and muskets hold the line while clone troopers for example cant. I also dont understand why clone troopers wear that armor,if an ewok can kill them then anyone can while flak armor can stop shrapnel and stubber rounds.
Remember when all the clone troopers just sort of ... got out of their transports on geonosis and then them and the droids just walked toward eachother shooting wildly?
A wraithknights will kill it's own mother to stick a toe into a ruin at least.
Singularity678 wrote:I still find it hilarious guardsmen armed with ironswords and muskets hold the line while clone troopers for example cant. I also dont understand why clone troopers wear that armor,if an ewok can kill them then anyone can while flak armor can stop shrapnel and stubber rounds.
Because they're level two nonheroics, and only heroic characters get their level as a bonus to their armour class.
Star Wars wins, 40k armies die of laughther seeing the elite soldiers and their huge reflective helmets on tiny legs running like ducks and shooting the ceiling. Well maybe Calgar and Swarmlord could hold hands and withstand the comedy but it would be futile anyway as super menace Lord Vader and his cringeworthy chest panel are coming and cannot be stopped as rofl follow their every step. Those are the supposedly coolest thing in Star Wars btw and they still have superweapons in form of ewoks, admiral Ackbar, Yoda and the music bands.
Inkubas wrote: But your right somehow a fleet of star destroyers piloted by some storm troopers marksmen can not only hold off the Nids, Orks, Necrons, Eldar, chaos, and the IoM but win against that threat. Because as far as I know, they (40k universe) aren't lead by a brilliant fish man and a militant teenage princess and have access to a fleet of 22 X-wing, 8 Y-wing, and 2 R-22 Spearhead starfighters to knock out the only thing holding the empire's authority... A deathstar
Hahaha this not to mention I just tried to rewatch the trilogy because of the incoming movie (with very open mind btw, didnt help heh) and the Empire is dumb as bricks. Han Solo almost made them crash two star destroyers (!) and later landed on the hack of the bridge. Tip of the iceberg really and the foundation is empire's usage of lights, 40k gets flak for skulls but the lights beat them 100:1.
I am 99% sure that in every "Who would win" the 40k universe comes out on top.
In this case, first we have the vastly superior firepower and armaments of the imperium, and the TERRIFYING horrible crap they face on an every day basis.
The enemies in 40k are not venture brothers henchmen, or poorly made droids, they are millenia old super intelligent species that have battled gods and won. They are infinite swarms of beasts and brutes who cannot be bartered or bargained with and only live to kill. We have chaos and daemons, which when gazed upon by the naked untrained eye, will drive a person insane.
The last straw in the who would win, is always magic.
It's the Force, Vs 40k Psykers. This is where 40k comes really far ahead. Psykers in 40k are balls up hands down disgustingly powerful. The force is childplay compared to the inside out boiling blood, gateway into the infinite abyss that sucks part of the planet and anything nearby into a hole of infinite damnation crazypants that is Vortex.
I love Star Wars with passion, but 40k is serious grimdark. It's whole selling point is, "We fight against gak your nightmare are afraid of. Hell is real, and we cut through it to save gas money".
You have the normal stuff (such as the stormtroopers etc.) which are underpowered compared to the 40k Universe and wouldn't be able to stop virtually any race from 40k.
Then you have the Super Doomsday weapons and on that point, Star Wars has feth-tons whereas 40k has the odd few.
Now, saying everything versus everything .... I'm going to have to say it's a draw. The Star Wars Universe is filled with so many Doomsday weapons that even if the 40k Universe was steaming away and capturing every planet from the Star Wars Universe --- the Star Wars Universe would just go "feth it" and start blowing up everything. It would be mutual annihilation.
You have the normal stuff (such as the stormtroopers etc.) which are underpowered compared to the 40k Universe and wouldn't be able to stop virtually any race from 40k.
Then you have the Super Doomsday weapons and on that point, Star Wars has feth-tons whereas 40k has the odd few.
Now, saying everything versus everything .... I'm going to have to say it's a draw. The Star Wars Universe is filled with so many Doomsday weapons that even if the 40k Universe was steaming away and capturing every planet from the Star Wars Universe --- the Star Wars Universe would just go "feth it" and start blowing up everything. It would be mutual annihilation.
Then you have the Super Doomsday weapons and on that point, Star Wars has feth-tons whereas 40k has the odd few.
lol No! You are very ignorant of 40k lore if you think they are lacking in doomsday weapons.
40k is bristling with doomsday weapons. Any ship that can fire torpedos can deliver Life Eater virus or Cyclonic torpedos. All the SW doomsday weapons can be counted on 2 hands, and there were never more than 2-3 in existence at once.
A half dozen Cyclonic torpedoes turn planets into asteroid fields.
A single canister of life eater virus can, over a few weeks, turn a planet into a lifeless husk. Dozens of canisters accomplish the same in mere hours.
Then there is the Nova Cannon. A standard armament for one of the most common Cruiser designs. It fires a projectile at near the speed of light which explodes with the force of a small super Nova, covering a hundreds of thousands of square kilometers radius around the point of detonation.
Plus, any 40k fleet boasts enough firepower to simply glass a planet with their mundane weaponry. As opposed to SW ships which have firepower comparable to century old battleships.
On the rarity level of SW super weapons, there are some truly terrifying things. There is an Ark Mechanicus which has a gun that shoots black holes.
40K has plenty of doomsday weapons (Exterminatus devices, Blackstone Fortresses, the Celestial Orrery, Orks, Tyranids, Space Wolf keggers, Assholetep...) while SW has them being awe-inspiring and terrible, they generally only exist 1 at a time.
Now, that said, certain aspects of the SW universe do give them a slight edge. The 40K folks, of course, lose out on the element of surprise and ambush at every turn, because SW has Admiral Ackbar, and Admiral Ackbar always knows when it's a trap.
You have the normal stuff (such as the stormtroopers etc.) which are underpowered compared to the 40k Universe and wouldn't be able to stop virtually any race from 40k.
Then you have the Super Doomsday weapons and on that point, Star Wars has feth-tons whereas 40k has the odd few.
Now, saying everything versus everything .... I'm going to have to say it's a draw. The Star Wars Universe is filled with so many Doomsday weapons that even if the 40k Universe was steaming away and capturing every planet from the Star Wars Universe --- the Star Wars Universe would just go "feth it" and start blowing up everything. It would be mutual annihilation.
What doomsday weapons? [/quote
He's probably thinking EU with the Galaxy Gun, Sun Crusher, multiple Death Stars, super ships, and all that jazz.
Alot of pre-retcon every star wars book that exists VS debates were based on the fact that the Star Wars galaxy had the ability to make as many of these as they wanted given time( at least true of the big ass ships and death stars... Not so much the others)
Unfortunately even if that were true this debate is run solely off the two official clone wars series and the movies. So yeah in its current iteration Star Wars has no chance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And again since we don't have EU backing up the enormous firepower if Star Wars weapons and fleets we have no choice but to go off of the visuals we get in the movies. Which of course only had one visually impressive weapon of note: The death Star laser.
If EU were a thing then the firepower actually outperforms 40k
If we were to look at before the current era of star wars, we would also have to look at the previous era of 40k, which outside of 30k, we know very little about.
Does the SW universe have any sort of defense against teleporters? If Logan Grimnar can teleport himself and his personal guard onto a greyknight ship, slaughter everyone and leave, I doubt many ships in the SW universe would stand a chance from that sort of boarding party.
In 40k, that's just another armament on most capitol ships.
They actually suggest how long it would take the *entire* imperial fleet to glass a planet. Child's play for most individual capital ships in 40k, even without using their rounds designed to do just that in a single shot.
Jedi might be scary, but all 40k are prepared for facing Psykers, which are like Jedi, but much, much stronger.
Whatever SW can do, 40k can do better.
Aside from a happily-ever-after, of course.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If its all eras of SW, why only the 30k and 40k era of 40k? Eldar Empire, War in Heaven, Old Ones? The last 10k years are probably the *weakest* the universe has ever been!
Also the only real chance SW would have against things like the Tyranids would be World Eater Droids.
In fact the more I look at it all of SWs advantages are Gteater maneuvering/travel, the ability to create fleets of star craft easily, and the ability to mass-produce war droids if various types.
Seriously if SWs wasn't so A.I. Phobic they probably could win easily within a matter of years.
Ill type up 2 scenarios using only The movies as my sources of the battle and let you say what you will.
(P.S. You forgot one BIG detail of the battle that might be your downfall the void between galaxies is huge. It takes SWs ships to traverse it. Any fleet from the Milky Ways would take 100s I not 1,000s to cross)
Then you have the Super Doomsday weapons and on that point, Star Wars has feth-tons whereas 40k has the odd few.
lol No! You are very ignorant of 40k lore if you think they are lacking in doomsday weapons.
40k is bristling with doomsday weapons. Any ship that can fire torpedos can deliver Life Eater virus or Cyclonic torpedos. All the SW doomsday weapons can be counted on 2 hands, and there were never more than 2-3 in existence at once.
A half dozen Cyclonic torpedoes turn planets into asteroid fields.
A single canister of life eater virus can, over a few weeks, turn a planet into a lifeless husk. Dozens of canisters accomplish the same in mere hours.
Then there is the Nova Cannon. A standard armament for one of the most common Cruiser designs. It fires a projectile at near the speed of light which explodes with the force of a small super Nova, covering a hundreds of thousands of square kilometers radius around the point of detonation.
Plus, any 40k fleet boasts enough firepower to simply glass a planet with their mundane weaponry. As opposed to SW ships which have firepower comparable to century old battleships.
On the rarity level of SW super weapons, there are some truly terrifying things. There is an Ark Mechanicus which has a gun that shoots black holes.
There are quite a few of 40k weapons that are terrifying not all forgetting how powerful the Eldar are as well.
Also the only real chance SW would have against things like the Tyranids would be World Eater Droids.
In fact the more I look at it all of SWs advantages are Gteater maneuvering/travel, the ability to create fleets of star craft easily, and the ability to mass-produce war droids if various types.
Seriously if SWs wasn't so A.I. Phobic they probably could win easily within a matter of years.
Ill type up 2 scenarios using only The movies as my sources of the battle and let you say what you will.
(P.S. You forgot one BIG detail of the battle that might be your downfall the void between galaxies is huge. It takes SWs ships to traverse it. Any fleet from the Milky Ways would take 100s I not 1,000s to cross)
EU isn't canon and is just fan spank.
WE established this pretty early on that the EU was pretty dumb.
The Webway cares not one whit about how distant things are. Sure, there won't be gates in the SW galaxy at the start, but SW is by no means faster at travel than *all* 40k forces.
EU isn't canon and is just fan spank.
WE established this pretty early on that the EU was pretty dumb
Yeah your right so what is this whole "all eras " thing? EU doesn't exist so the only in-universe "real star wars stuff is the clone wars and the galactic empire which is only 30years apart.
Someone said something about all of 30k + 40k + war in heaven. That is millions of years difference.
But just to be sure I'm on track before I start any real counterarguments.
We are in the post-republic mid-empire era in which luke and gang are still around and the first death star is already destroyed correct/ the eve of 13th Black Crusade correct?
I brought up the point that, if we're comparing the 2 settings in their "current" incarnation, even restricting SW to the on-screen presentation....
... SW is significantly fethed, because the Force is becoming weaker, the Jedi less-talented, and the devastation of what amounts to (in the end) something like 40 years of war have stretched resources in major population centers to their limits.
I was a little inspired by this crossover concept, so I've put my answer in the form of a lil' story - wall of text to follow:
Spoiler:
Fade in post-opening sequence. A night sky filled with strange stars is lit by bursts of streaking light and distant explosions. Pan down to the ground, where we see an impressive gathering of the Galactic Imperial military - AT-ATs, flanked by smaller scout walkers for support, with numerous foot soldiers and armoured transports scurrying around their feet as they advance across an ashen plain.
Cut to inside the cockpit of the lead AT-AT, the acting Imperial commander scanning the dark horizon through the viewport as his mighty walker lurches forward. He reviews his orders on a dimly lit screen - engage advancing enemy ground forces on open terrain, and break the heart of their formation before they can move to threaten the planet's shielded orbital weaponry. His support is limited due to the rapid nature of his army's deployment, not to mention the colossal battle raging in orbit. Despite this, the sheer size of the force he commands is considerable, and he expects the enemy to be caught unawares by the counter-attack. It's hardly the first battle he has fought against an unknown foe, although the fact that his forward scouts failed to check in after confirming the enemy's position in the valley ahead troubles him.
A warning klaxon sounds - he snaps from his reverie and demands a report. A pilot stammers back that there is a return contact on long-range sensors. The commander demands a visual, and the viewport zooms to the horizon, switching to night-vision for a clear view of the enemy.
The commander's face goes white, sweat beading on his forehead. Through the viewport he sees an upright walker, illuminated in hazy green and white. It is easily twenty metres taller than his own AT-AT and considerably more bulky. The vaguely humanoid machine seems to leer back at him, it's 'face' styled in the grim visage of a leering skull. Coming into better focus, he sees it's hull is festooned with baroque adornments and religious iconography, a stark contrast to the spartan trappings of the Imperial walkers. He also sees it's armament - it's left arm a cannon barrel that could span several city blocks, the right a gatling weapon of equally monstrous size, in addition to a multitude of other cannon and missile launchers scattered across it's hull. It was far from the biggest war machine he'd seen - he had the privilege of seeing a super star destroyer in dry dock once - but it was certainly one of the most intimidating military land engines he had laid eyes on.
And it was not alone. A pair of similarly monstrous walkers flanked it to either side, smaller and more squat but sporting similar weaponry to their larger companion. And around their feet, a horde of men - nay, a tide - surged forwards in a near-solid mass that could have been hundreds of thousands of soldiers at a glance, though the commander feared the darkness obscured the true vastness of the enemy's infantry. Behind them came columns of almost crude-looking, boxy tanks, and long barrelled artillery platforms moving into place.
The comms in the cockpit became a flurry of noise as the other officers in the task force began desperately demanding orders from their commander. Their resolve was clearly shaken, as was his own. He paused a moment, as he shook away the terror creeping up from the back of his mind. Grasping the comm relay, he started to signal the attack.
Before he could speak, a flash of light flickered in the giant walker's left arm, sprouting outwards to become an incandescent beam so bright the valley was lit as if day had broken for but a moment. It lanced into the AT-AT to his right, which was immediately swallowed whole by the beam. A shockwave followed, the sound catching up to the energy blast a heartbeat later, and the cockpit was bucked and rattled by the colossal report of the weapon. After the initial shock passed, the commander grabbed his comms relay off the floor and turned to his companion walker to demand a damage report - but quickly saw there was no need. All that remained was the hollowed core of it's rear end, it's armour melted and peeled back like burning paper, hot red liquid running in rivulets down what remained of the legs. The rest was simply gone, atomized by the energy of the blast. There was no secondary explosion - any fuel had simply disintegrated without ever igniting - but the impact of the attack had still left a good portion of his battle line utterly flattened. At a glance, it appeared hundreds of his soldiers had died from the engine's opening volley.
As if exulting in it's kill, the enemy colossus emitted an booming roar, a bestial noise like the keening wail of a bloodthirsty bird of prey, so loud the commander could feel his bones rattle even inside the cockpit. The comms were practically screaming now, all semblance of order lost in the face of weaponry of such magnitude, and the terror of such a war machine bearing down on them reducing even his most reliable veterans to quivering cowards.
Regaining his composure, the commander saw the prudence in retreat. But with such a force bearing down on them, he knew his army would be obliterated were it to flee wholesale. Resigned to his fate, he signalled what remained of his heavy walkers and ordered an attack, though not all of his officers complied. They would sell themselves dearly to these beast machines and, with a bit of luck, maybe the larger part of the task force could be salvaged to fight under the defences at the orbital weapons platforms.
Cut to the command post of the Warlord titan, it's princeps drumming his fingers on his control panel. He sighs, feeling the satisfaction of his engine at taking first blood creep into his consciousness. As his sensori reports the enemy forces to be in retreat, the princeps scoffs. "Fleeing after a single shot from the volcano cannon! Their collaboration with the foul Xenos has clearly weakened their resolve. This will be even easier than I thought."
"Princeps, several of the enemy engines still advance on us. They are firing!"
The crew braces for impact. A moment of silence follows as the red energy blasts pulse harmlessly against the crackling void shields.
A little embarassed, the princeps rights himself and adjusts his collar. "Admirable bravery from these ones, I'll give them that. Moderati, let's wrap this up, I'm going to put the kettle on."
Hardly a fair matchup in this case but I couldn't help myself
I'm more than a bit biased to be fair, but I'm with the 40k crowd on this one.
Ok so our technology is pretty limited compared to the OPness that is EU fanon Er I mean fiction, but never fear! We have a chance yet at not being utterly annihilated. This is typed up on my phone so don't judge too harshly!
Scenario 1: Star Wars invasion of the 40k galaxy.
Spoiler:
Now since we don't have any real idea of how long it would take for the hyperdrive capable ships to traverse the galaxy span but 1-2 years sounds about right.
First contact: First contact would undoubtedly occur from an imperial exploratory fleet that would relay the information of the furthest edges of the milky way. After these ships come back reporting the relatively undefended and easily convinced populations of agri-worlds and lowly populated planets ripe for the picking with promises if an entire
The emperor then would hastily decide to send a fleet of about 5 or 6 Star Destroyers to conquer the system.
The results are disastrous.
After several relatively easy campaigns the Imperial fleet eventually was detected by the Imperium of Man's forces and eventually several guard regiments and a locally stationed Space Marine chapter were activated in order to stop and destroy the forces. The battle is hard fought in both the ground and space with hard-fought ground siege-warfare betweenheavily entrenched forces and with "point-blank" space maneuvers making the IoM ships less than optimally effective.
However the Star Wars fleet is outmatched and sent scurrying back with tales of men who can charge your lines in the blink of an eye and of whispers of the horrors and monsters that lie within the far away galaxy.
The Emperor would then be faced with a decision: Either to give up and admit defeat or to dedicate fully to the effort with every resource available.
If the first option is picked then nothing happens. No further conflict ever erupts and the IoM declares the the Empire to have been destroyed.
If the second option is chosen first the Emperor would have to end the war between the Rebellion and the Empire at least temporarily. He can use propaganda to his advantage and claim that the " barbarians" were planning an invasion force to conquer all of the known galaxy and to exterminate them all.( which of course isn't really stretching the truth that far).
The war efforts would move to create new death star platforms in order to help with the war effort and to patrol the SW galaxies' borders. ( we can average about 1 death star fully built every 3 years so not sure very large number).
Massive ships such as the Super Star Destroyer would be needed to be built Just to help TRANSPORT the armies safely inter-galactically.
Cheaper methods of mass produced troops would be necessary in order to even think of competing with the numbers 40k has so the galactic wide construction of B-2, B-3, and Super Batyle Droids would begin in order to supplement the flesh and blood soldiers fighting on the ground at a much more cost / time efficient rate.
The build at this point is massive, and the drafting of almost entire species into the Imperial navy/army has begun to show just how huge the SW universe is.
By the time the first wave of forces is complete and sent over the pond the SW forces have returned to their initial scouting location nearly 10 years later with over 1,000 Star Destroyers, Several Billion battle droids, 1 Death Star(mkii) 1 or 2 Super Star Destroyers, and over 500million flesh and blood Stormtroopers with support.
These same numbers can be expected to come in at an interval of every 1 to 2 years minus the death star which would be every 3 years.
Despite all these forces the SW army would only manage to capture a few dozen systems before the IoM , Tau, Tyranids, etc. puts a hard stop on their progress. Droid foundaries would be built on captured planets in order to supplement the fast dwindling invasion forces troops using enslaved IoM humans to work/build them as well as forcing them into military service.
Undoubtedly there will be a large number of SW forces that would be corrupted by chaos and would further halt any ongoing operations.
Results:
Stalemate: The Star Wars galaxy is only able to take a very small piece of the Milky Way before being stopped in their tracks by the various factions they face. This is 40k at its core, it takes everything you got to gain even the slightest bit if ground and even though you've devoted everything you got into it your still just barely holding on.
Pt2 coming up: The 40k invasion of the Star Wars universe( here's a hint they are fethed)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well I'm exhausted for now I will try to write the ROFL stomp that is 40k invading star wars later. Star Wars would have no chance without some kind of massive military buildup.
The EU is not fanon. They were, once upon a time, published under the blessing of LucasArts. Only recently have they been deemed non-canon... but, then, so has just about everything else other than the movies and 2 TV shows.
It was a joke. I was personally against the decision Disney made as I loved many of the books personally. Just trying to keep things light hearted that's all.
Also the only real chance SW would have against things like the Tyranids would be World Eater Droids.
In fact the more I look at it all of SWs advantages are Gteater maneuvering/travel, the ability to create fleets of star craft easily, and the ability to mass-produce war droids if various types.
Seriously if SWs wasn't so A.I. Phobic they probably could win easily within a matter of years.
Ill type up 2 scenarios using only The movies as my sources of the battle and let you say what you will.
(P.S. You forgot one BIG detail of the battle that might be your downfall the void between galaxies is huge. It takes SWs ships to traverse it. Any fleet from the Milky Ways would take 100s I not 1,000s to cross)
They could have a hundred World Eaters, it wouldn't matter. Star Wars' level of firepower is pathetic compared to 40k, along with their engagement ranges. Plus Tyranids would be liable to consume the World Eaters themselves for the iron inside them.
And no, the firepower in the EU doesn't even remotely surpass 40K. FFS, do you even know what the difference between kilotons, megatons, gigatons, and teratons are?
DoomShakaLaka wrote: (hastily googles all the terms you just listed including FFS)
Yes of course I do!
Then you would understand Star Wars is far behind the yields of 40k ships lol. A fleet of strike cruisers can mass-scatter a planet sans cyclonic torpedoes, simply by dumping lance fire into it.
Asherian Command wrote: EU isn't canon and is just fan spank.
WE established this pretty early on that the EU was pretty dumb.
So then what exactly is your justification for including 40k's equivalent of the EU? After all, all the novels in 40k are just "fan spank" and the only official source is the tabletop game. So looks like all the high-end 40k stuff is gone and Star Wars wins by almost as much of a margin as that Culture civilian ship.
Asherian Command wrote: EU isn't canon and is just fan spank.
WE established this pretty early on that the EU was pretty dumb.
So then what exactly is your justification for including 40k's equivalent of the EU? After all, all the novels in 40k are just "fan spank" and the only official source is the tabletop game. So looks like all the high-end 40k stuff is gone and Star Wars wins by almost as much of a margin as that Culture civilian ship.
You might actually want to bother looking up GW's stance before spouting nonsense. The TT isn't "official", everything and nothing is, simultaneously. Star Wars meanwhile has a rigid system that has punted the EU into an alternate universe and by and large rendered the material irrelevant, as it is no longer being updated.
Asherian Command wrote: EU isn't canon and is just fan spank.
WE established this pretty early on that the EU was pretty dumb.
So then what exactly is your justification for including 40k's equivalent of the EU? After all, all the novels in 40k are just "fan spank" and the only official source is the tabletop game. So looks like all the high-end 40k stuff is gone and Star Wars wins by almost as much of a margin as that Culture civilian ship.
Not true. BL is a part of GW, so BL are as official as they come. Besides, GW's stance on canon is that canon does not matter and you should make up your own mind. BL novels are far from being 40k's equivalent to the Star Wars EU (this would be more the Dawn of War games etc.)
But even if you take away the novels, 40k wins by such a huge landslide it isn't even funny. As said, In SW, a weapon capable of destroying a planet is the most destructive weapon ever built and has to be built in a huge, unwieldy and vulnerable space station. In 40k, a single spaceship is enough to destroy planets and this happens quite often. Furthermore, 40k factions such as the Dark Eldar or Necrons have the capability to destroy not just planets, but to extinguish entire stars like it is nothing.
40k is on a much higher power level than SW. After all, over the top is what 40k is all about. Just compare a SW laser blaster with a 40k autorifle for example.
Wyzilla wrote: You might actually want to bother looking up GW's stance before spouting nonsense. The TT isn't "official", everything and nothing is, simultaneously. Star Wars meanwhile has a rigid system that has punted the EU into an alternate universe and by and large rendered the material irrelevant, as it is no longer being updated.
I'm not talking about the stance of the publishers, I'm talking about Asherian Command's dismissal of the EU as "fan spank" and "pretty dumb" as if his dislike of it has anything to do with whether or not it is canon.
As for the supposed "removal" of the EU in Star Wars, that's kind of overstated. Disney has specifically said that they won't be following the story of the EU and consider themselves free to contradict EU material, but it still exists. For example, FFG continues to use EU material in their Star Wars games.
Official =/= canon. For example, Star Trek canon policy (set by the IP owner) is that the movies and TV shows are canon and nothing else is. So there are lots of officially-licensed Star Trek novels but they often contradict each other and there's very little attempt to incorporate them into a single unified world. Each author gets their own little non-canon copy of the universe to work with, and the canon IP ignores all of them.
Besides, GW's stance on canon is that canon does not matter and you should make up your own mind.
Sure, which means that "the novels are non-canon and only the tabletop game matters" is just as legitimate as "the novels are canon". If Asherian Command can dismiss the Star Wars EU as "fan spank" and reject the evidence for firepower/ship counts/etc in the EU then I can do the same for the high-end stuff in 40k.
In 40k, a single spaceship is enough to destroy planets and this happens quite often.
Really? I haven't ever seen this happen in the tabletop game. Are you sure you aren't thinking of non-canon fanfiction here?
Furthermore, 40k factions such as the Dark Eldar or Necrons have the capability to destroy not just planets, but to extinguish entire stars like it is nothing.
And yet even in the novels they rarely, if ever, use this power. Necrons supposedly have all of this god-like power, but then they lose battles against WWI armies like the DKoK. The obvious conclusion here is that when a Necron character or a novel/codex/etc from the Necron point of view talks about having the ability to extinguish stars with a trivial effort it's just empty boasting.
Wyzilla wrote: You might actually want to bother looking up GW's stance before spouting nonsense. The TT isn't "official", everything and nothing is, simultaneously. Star Wars meanwhile has a rigid system that has punted the EU into an alternate universe and by and large rendered the material irrelevant, as it is no longer being updated.
I'm not talking about the stance of the publishers, I'm talking about Asherian Command's dismissal of the EU as "fan spank" and "pretty dumb" as if his dislike of it has anything to do with whether or not it is canon.
As for the supposed "removal" of the EU in Star Wars, that's kind of overstated. Disney has specifically said that they won't be following the story of the EU and consider themselves free to contradict EU material, but it still exists. For example, FFG continues to use EU material in their Star Wars games.
Official =/= canon. For example, Star Trek canon policy (set by the IP owner) is that the movies and TV shows are canon and nothing else is. So there are lots of officially-licensed Star Trek novels but they often contradict each other and there's very little attempt to incorporate them into a single unified world. Each author gets their own little non-canon copy of the universe to work with, and the canon IP ignores all of them.
Besides, GW's stance on canon is that canon does not matter and you should make up your own mind.
Sure, which means that "the novels are non-canon and only the tabletop game matters" is just as legitimate as "the novels are canon". If Asherian Command can dismiss the Star Wars EU as "fan spank" and reject the evidence for firepower/ship counts/etc in the EU then I can do the same for the high-end stuff in 40k.
In 40k, a single spaceship is enough to destroy planets and this happens quite often.
Really? I haven't ever seen this happen in the tabletop game. Are you sure you aren't thinking of non-canon fanfiction here?
Furthermore, 40k factions such as the Dark Eldar or Necrons have the capability to destroy not just planets, but to extinguish entire stars like it is nothing.
And yet even in the novels they rarely, if ever, use this power. Necrons supposedly have all of this god-like power, but then they lose battles against WWI armies like the DKoK. The obvious conclusion here is that when a Necron character or a novel/codex/etc from the Necron point of view talks about having the ability to extinguish stars with a trivial effort it's just empty boasting.
Mother of God.... I am starting to believe all these theories of Peregrine's. It's as if all the high end fluff pieces from the codexes are just there to make the faction look good to the player.
I can feel the warp mutating my body even as I type this heresy....
BL have actually come out and said that all their stories are true, lies, and personal opinions of the narrator. So which one is right? Peregrine and I are just as entitled to say that they are all lies within the background as you are to say they are true. As for the figures being quoted with regard to the damage, sorry no. Nice math, no backing. Each sum has been created within the vacuum of a story/descriptive narration. Lances can level continents? yet in game terms it misses 3 out of 4 attempts.
If you want us to take these seriously, then don't point to someone elses' work, justifiy it yourself please.
AndrewC wrote: BL have actually come out and said that all their stories are true, lies, and personal opinions of the narrator. So which one is right? Peregrine and I are just as entitled to say that they are all lies within the background as you are to say they are true. As for the figures being quoted with regard to the damage, sorry no. Nice math, no backing. Each sum has been created within the vacuum of a story/descriptive narration. Lances can level continents? yet in game terms it misses 3 out of 4 attempts.
If you want us to take these seriously, then don't point to someone elses' work, justifiy it yourself please.
Hell a single lance accidently destroyed a whole planet.
The next time the Night Haunter returned to Nostramo would be the last. Word had reached the legion that Imperial governor Basileus's regime allowed crime to run rampant once again. The Night Haunter's entire fleet arrived in orbit and aimed their weapons at their home world. Countless lance barrages and orbital torpedoes pummeled the surface. The bombardment reached the planet's core, possibly through a weakness left in the crust by Curze's landing or the extensive adamantium mining, and the planet burst apart[1][3].
Then we have Nova Cannons (Very similar to the deathstar in terms of how powerful they are and how hard it is to operate them)
ecause of the destruction it can cause over a vast area, a Nova Cannon projectile is not armed until a fraction of a second after firing, though by that time it will have already traveled tens of thousands of kilometers through space.[2a] Nova Cannons are also notoriously difficult to operate and inaccurate, which is why many Naval captains prefer to use traditional torpedoes instead. For those captains which do mount them, a well-used Nova Cannon can be a terrifying weapon and psychological tool.[2a]
Torpedos are basically used to destroy targets from far away often finding their target pretty easy. And are extremely deadly.
Some are used in local planetary defence networks[2c] while others can be launched from the planet surface, although they are required to traverse the planet's atmosphere.[2d] Anti-ship torpedoes are up to 200 feet in length and are powered by a plasma reactor, which makes up part of the warhead as well as the method of propulsion. Standard torpedoes move in a straight line and have limited sensing and targeting abilities, turning to intercept if they come within a few thousand kilometres of their target, although often they will still miss.[1] Torpedoes are highly effective weapons in space combat. They are so small and fast that only defence turrets and fighters can catch and destroy them easily before they impact, although using weapons batteries, lances and Nova cannons can prove effective if the captain is desperate enough.[1]
Weapon batteries are on every single Imperial Naval ship
From Plasma Projectors, Laser cannons, Missile Launchers, Rail Guns, Fusion Beamers and Graviton Pulsars. The Imperial Navy smaller ships are extremely powerful. That and also how quickly the Imperium can move.
According to the lore there is another weapon Called the Macrocannon
The macro cannon are a type of Macroweapon and the largest form of auto-weaponry, much heavier even than the autocannon. They fire massive and explosive shells at a maximum range of around 40 km. Although it is possible to mount them on heavy vehicles, they are more suited for use in emplacements and static defence due to their considerable size and potency.[1] They are a Standard Template Construct, and often form the primary weapon of starships.[2]
Atlas Class warheads basically destroyed titans that have void shields. Which Starwars vechiles lack on their basic vechiles on the ground. Their starships have shields on their regular ships but are easily destroyed by rockets and fire from small turrets. (Check the movies for that one)
The Atlas-class was a heavy thruster-powered bomb of Imperial manufacture, designed for air-to-ground bombardment. It was typically deployed against large ground targets, such as hardened bunkers, citadels, Titans, or Super Heavy Tanks.[1] Atlas warheads were in production as far back as the Great Crusade; at the time of the Horus Heresy, several Atlas-class warheads were adapted for space-to-surface operations in order to disperse the Life Eater virus on Istvaan III.[2]
Often times Space battles in the 40k universe are over hundreds of kilometres. While in starwars the are up close and personal.
Star Wars is used to upclose and personal battles, they are not used to having a fleet from the otherside of a planet or from worlds away blowing them all to hell. They are not used to be deployed at a galatic scale to them 2 million clones is a ton of troops. For 40k the average regiment is around give or take 16 million strong. (Though this was dependent on which regiment we are talking about)
We are talking about all of the imperium. The Whole Imperium. Versus the Starwars Galaxy. Starwars only benefit is their strength in terms of hope and research. But by the time they are able to counteract against say the Imperial Navy's Scout Fleets. The chances are extremely high that the Imperium has already killed most of the major leaders of the Star Wars Forces. Caldiux assassins and Assassins transforming and just killing every member of the Upper Ranks and then sowing chaos throughout the ranks. Sadly the star wars universe does not have an answer to the Assassins of the Imperium. Nor do they have answer to the unity that the imperium bostlers.
Also lies? Lies? You mean what Aaron Demboswaki said? Yes has anyone actually quoted a novel from 40k yet? No.... None have. They have been from the core books of the 40k universe. Codexes, the rules, and the many older writings of 40k which talk about actual weapon power.
40k is a universe where logic is somewhat devoid within this universe. But that doesn't mean that it loses to starwars. Which though popular does not mean it is better or havae more powerful weaponry. It is clear that it is not as strong as the 40k universe.
Not also to forget that I and many others have only talked about the Imperium so far. The Imperium That is the only group we have siginificantly covered. As we have other races such as the Eldar who are so technologically advanced that it is by this they continue to survive. They bring back the dead, and their dead are far more powerful than their normal forms.
Imagine it an Eldar Craftworld in the star wars universe. Sowing chaos and destroying any race secretly. They can make any thing seem like an accident.
I bet the Orks have better aim. 
THEY HAVE BATTLESHIPS 
