Yeah the idea that primaris are immune to the gene flaw of DA and SW is outdated. Corbulo thought it could find a solution to the blood rage in primaris DA and it seems primaris showed sign of black rage.
Shock assault is very interesting. Though there are few, there are a couple of very potent melee units across both loyal and chaos, they have just become even more deadly.
A big death company unit can all of a sudden give ork boys a run for their money in terms of number of attacks.
Crimson wrote: If SW, BA and DA can get all the contents of the vanilla codex, then I really do not see any point for them having their own codices instead of just being supplements.
Signature units, characters, lore--and all three have some unique vehicles that the main codex wouldn't.
Yes. And those can be in a supplement book.
Yep. And if the supplements are around 50-100 pages like it looks, that's more than enough for each Chapter's "Signature units, characters, lore--and unique vehicles".
I really just don't understand people's distain/disbelief that BAs/DAs/SWs can't easily fit into one of these supplements. It's not only possible, but hopefully likely at this point.
Each of those books is 144 pages. If you took out literally all lore/unit entries that are covered/shared in the Marine book, I'd be shocked if the remaining page count exceeded 100 pages, which would make them the idea size for supplements.
The ONLY complaint I can see being valid is the fact that all Chapters need 2 books now. But that's true of a ton of different armies right now.
I can see Bangles and Dangles being supplements, but as somebody else said the Space Wolves are too different. It would ruin them a bit if they suddenly had tactical squads.
NivlacSupreme wrote: I can see Bangles and Dangles being supplements, but as somebody else said the Space Wolves are too different. It would ruin them a bit if they suddenly had tactical squads.
Well, GW literally said that they can take all units in the new vanilla codex, so unless that was inaccurate (which is certainly possible) then they will have tacticals.
Crimson wrote: If SW, BA and DA can get all the contents of the vanilla codex, then I really do not see any point for them having their own codices instead of just being supplements.
Signature units, characters, lore--and all three have some unique vehicles that the main codex wouldn't.
Yes. And those can be in a supplement book.
Yep. And if the supplements are around 50-100 pages like it looks, that's more than enough for each Chapter's "Signature units, characters, lore--and unique vehicles". I really just don't understand people's distain/disbelief that BAs/DAs/SWs can't easily fit into one of these supplements. It's not only possible, but hopefully likely at this point. Each of those books is 144 pages. If you took out literally all lore/unit entries that are covered/shared in the Marine book, I'd be shocked if the remaining page count exceeded 100 pages, which would make them the idea size for supplements.
The ONLY complaint I can see being valid is the fact that all Chapters need 2 books now. But that's true of a ton of different armies right now.
-
All first founding chapters.
We'll see. I mean, I agree the supplements will most likely be for the First Founding (with Crimson Fists and Templars very likely rolled into the Imperial fist supplement) but as it's likely the Chapter customization rules suggested are not going to be for Matched Play, saying "all Chapters" in reference to "all first founding Chapters" is basically the same thing at that point. I guess you could get by with just the Marine Codex and Blood Ravens, but that still requires 2 books (Codex + White Dwarf)
Let's also keep in mind that this path is only available to GW for Marines because there are enough specific Chapter Marine players. I doubt we'll see Codex: Harlequins with Masque supplements, for example
NivlacSupreme wrote: I can see Bangles and Dangles being supplements, but as somebody else said the Space Wolves are too different. It would ruin them a bit if they suddenly had tactical squads.
Well, GW literally said that they can take all units in the new vanilla codex, so unless that was inaccurate (which is certainly possible) then they will have tacticals.
Using the Indexes as precedence, you can EASILY just include a chart in the SW supplement that says: The following units change their names and keywords to ______ and BAM! Tacticals = Grey Hunters, Librarians = Priests and so on. They did it in the Marines Index on like, 1 page. Imagine what they could do in a whole 50-100 page supplement. In most cases, the wargear options aren't THAT different. Blood claws, Thunder Wolves, etc would get their own datasheets easy enough
Going to have to grab one of the walkers and a box of snipers for sure.
Making a home brew primaris chapter, painted green with woodland camo pouches and holsters, called The Punishers, needless to say it’s not hard to guess what the chapter symbol will be.
Won’t be to most people’s tastes but hell im gonna have some fun making these realistic marines .
KurtAngle2 wrote: I think it's kinda insulting for other Xeno factions. I'm happy that Marines get an updated codex after 2 years (this sets a precedent for other codices updates I think) but the mere release of even new Marine models after only FIVE MONTHS from the last marine release whilst neglecting all Xenos factions that have received NOTHING in the last few years apart from their Codex is braindead at best.
What were the Genestealer Cults, the various Ork Buggies and the plastic Spiritseer then?
Presumably they, along with the Necron dude, would fall outside of the description of "all Xenos factions that have received NOTHING in the last few years apart from their Codex".
If we take that time period as 8th edition, I think that would mean Dark Eldar, Tau, Harlequins and Tyranids, off the top of my head, with two factions who have had exactly one character model (Necrons and Craftworlds).
Orks were, what, six or seven kits? GSC certainly got a decent release.
I repeat- IOW "Here you go, be happy with the scraps you've got. Be grateful we gave you anything."
What is it with people taking everything literally? Xenos, by comparison to SMs have gotten feth all this edition. Not literally, as they did get something but it is crumbs compared to the massive proverbial cake SMs got and are still getting.
Again, 2 waves of primaris releases. 1 wave of chaos marines if you want to be generous and include them, despite it being a refresh of 15+ year old core kits.
Otherwise we have:
Death guard (too diverse to be 'just marines')
Stealer cults
Custodes
Knights
Chaos knights
Orks
Daemons x2
Marines have a large volume of historic kits and needed a large sleuth to replace them, not that others don't. But you're just wrong I'm afraid.
Nope. Let's look what was in those releases shall we? Rather than by single blob of release as you'll see those SM kits outnumber the rest of the other Xenos kits combined. GSC I can give you, as that was a big release but everything else has either been nothing, one or two models or barely a blip of thing no player of the army asked for (Orks). Imperium as a whole is getting everything whilst everything else is languishing behind. Where are my auxiliaries for Tau? They have literally loads of client races working for them but we only have two on the tabletop. Where are new Aspect Warriors? Even new temples FFS. If GW can pull SM stuff out of their collective backsides then they should have no problem with other races.
What auxiliaries would you add to tau that are unique and the army needs? Aspect warriors I agree need a rehash. But you're moving the goal post from marines to imperium to fit your argument.
Marines until recently got (in their main wave):
Captain
Librarian
Chaplain
Apothecary
Redemptor
Repulsor
Inceptors
Intercessors
Hellblasters
Repulsor
Aggressors
Which admittedly is a fairly decent amount for what I'd essentially a brand new army. But it's still comparable to the stealer cults release, death guard release, chaos marine release and orks wasn't far behind (whether people asked for what they made is irrelevant).
Don't forget various Primaris Lieutenants - 2 of which are on general release, 2 more via specific boxes, and that's before we get to the LE ones.
And I notice we're getting another one in this wave, if you check the file name on the Reiver.
You're also discounting E2B versions of those kits, and the various models in Shadowspear. Oh, and in terms of boxes, the BA/DA/SW versions of kits...
Client races for the Tau? Well, new sculpts and options - possibly an entire Merc 'dex - for the Kroot would be a starting point. Additional Vespid options, perhaps? Demiurg are a possibility, though maybe less so now we're seeing Squats back in Necro. I don't think the Niccassar work on a planet. Gue'vasa have been an option Tau players have been after for years. And as we're talking client races for Tau, this is an option to bring in a squad or two of anything they feel like, and it can be justified as a newly weaponised race...
As an aside, if people are going to compare all the releases for Xenos to just the Primaris releases - which we've seen a number of times in this thread - then the comparison is off. You either compare individual factions to Primaris - in which case only the GSC measure up at all, for Xenos factions - or you compare Xenos releases to Chaos releases to Imperial releases.
And if you do that, one leg of the tripod is substantially shorter than the other two.
I'll not pursue this further beyond this statement, but you're happy to count duplicate releases of the same models (easy build > full kit, shadowspear marines > this release), you include one off lieutenant models for subfactions but decide the cryptek and spirit seer don't count.
For tau you listed some races, but what I asked was what roles and units do you want. Just insert x race or "whatever I want from other books" isn't a good answer.
Yes imperium gets more releases. But the entire conversation spouted from stating marines get more than anyone else, when they only have due to being the only faction with 2 full waves of support so far. I fully expect chaos marines will equal them with their next wave.
Xenos do need some more love, everyone knows that, but whinging about how unfair it is as a ratio of releases doesn't help anyone. It's well known the narrative for 8th was make chaos great and relevant again, which can only happen in a struggle against humanity as the protagonists for the bulk of the setting.
On topic - I'm quite excited for the scout walker, it's a bit clunky looking but I like the idea that none-corpses get to be inside of an armoured frame.
Dude, if you check my first response in here (it's in the quote pyramid within the spoiler tags), you'll note I did count the Cryptek and Spiritseer as 8th edition releases - just not substantial 8th edition releases.
I'm not a Tau player - heck, I don't even like them as a faction - so I'm not going to speculate on what they need from a gameplay perspective. I can, however, ruminate on known options from the background.
To date in 8th edition, Space Marines - well, Primaris Marines - have had the most releases. Aside from gripe about it on the internet, there isn't a great deal players of Xenos factions which haven't had releases can do about it.
The Reiver dude and the variant Eliminators look OK - if too tacticool - and Khan looks OK (aside from not being on a freaking bike), but the rest of the release is a miss. Especially the walker and the shoebox.
Crimson wrote: Dear Emperor and Nurgle, could 'this release is not a release for my army, waah!' complaints be a banned topic? It is utterly pointless and tiresome.
You're on a discussion forum - shocking, people are going to discuss things.
If you just want to lavish praise on GW without distractions, may I recommend their Facebook page?
Crimson wrote: Dear Emperor and Nurgle, could 'this release is not a release for my army, waah!' complaints be a banned topic? It is utterly pointless and tiresome.
You're on a discussion forum - shocking, people are going to discuss things.
If you just want to lavish praise on GW without distractions, may I recommend their Facebook page?
I just think it is pretty rude to come to a thread about a space marine release to complain that it is a space marine release. GW release schedule and priorities should be discussed in a separate thread.
Carnikang wrote: Collectors edition a for the Supplements is.... Well.
So if I'm reading it right, if you just want the FFC, you just buy that supplement right? No need to faff about with the main codex?
Until I get the book in hand, I can't say for certain, but it looks to me like you need the main 'dex and the supplement to play White Scars, say.
Items up for pre-order next week:
Codex: Space Marines (plus special edition)
Codex Supplement: Ultramarines (plus special edition)
Codex Supplement: White Scars (plus special edition)
Ultramarines Dice
Ultramarines Datacards
White Scars Dice
White Scars Datacards
Primaris Tigurius
Primaris Kor'sarro Khan
Wake the Dead Primaries Lieutenant
White Scars Primaris Upgrade Sprue
White Scars Primaris Transfers
Carnikang wrote: Collectors edition a for the Supplements is.... Well.
So if I'm reading it right, if you just want the FFC, you just buy that supplement right? No need to faff about with the main codex?
The supplements are just that: supplements.
The enormous background sections of each supplement will bring a new level of depth, with detailed breakdowns of Chapter organisation and iconography, as well as their full history and a bestiary of their unique Characters and units. The codex supplements will also include all of their associated Chapter’s named Characters and other units – such as Chief Librarian Tigurius, Kor’sarro Khan and a Khan on Bike – along with bespoke relics, psychic powers, Warlord Traits and many other abilities that help to define their character.
So codex, cards, supplements, their cards, WS specific sprue, and three characters. And more horrible and confusing specialty dice with multiple special faces.
Hmm. Less than I expected, but faster than I expected.
Presumably the actual models the following weekend.
Carnikang wrote: Collectors edition a for the Supplements is.... Well.
So if I'm reading it right, if you just want the FFC, you just buy that supplement right? No need to faff about with the main codex?
The supplements are just that: supplements.
The enormous background sections of each supplement will bring a new level of depth, with detailed breakdowns of Chapter organisation and iconography, as well as their full history and a bestiary of their unique Characters and units. The codex supplements will also include all of their associated Chapter’s named Characters and other units – such as Chief Librarian Tigurius, Kor’sarro Khan and a Khan on Bike – along with bespoke relics, psychic powers, Warlord Traits and many other abilities that help to define their character.
I get that the word Supplement means it's extra stuff for a baseline product, but are they really going to not include the base SM rules in the books to force you to buy the main codex to be able to play with all the new toys?
I wouldn't put it past them, and taking advantage of space marine players is what they do best....
" ** Yes, that includes Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels! Have you ever wanted to carry Bjorn the Fell-Handed or Murderfang to battle using a Stormraven Gunship? Well, now you can!"
So that clears some of the confusion. My guess is that the current BA, DA, and SW Codices will function as supplements for the time being while the other first founding chapters will be in the 6 announced supplements.
In the future I would expect those three chapters to use this supplement system.
I get that the word Supplement means it's extra stuff for a baseline product, but are they really going to not include the base SM rules in the books to force you to buy the main codex to be able to play with all the new toys?
Carnikang wrote: Collectors edition a for the Supplements is.... Well.
So if I'm reading it right, if you just want the FFC, you just buy that supplement right? No need to faff about with the main codex?
Until I get the book in hand, I can't say for certain, but it looks to me like you need the main 'dex and the supplement to play White Scars, say.
Items up for pre-order next week:
Codex: Space Marines (plus special edition)
Codex Supplement: Ultramarines (plus special edition)
Codex Supplement: White Scars (plus special edition)
Ultramarines Dice
Ultramarines Datacards
White Scars Dice
White Scars Datacards
Primaris Tigurius
Primaris Kor'sarro Khan
Wake the Dead Primaries Lieutenant
White Scars Primaris Upgrade Sprue
White Scars Primaris Transfers
It actually looks like you can play any Chapter, including UMs or White Scars, with just the main Codex. It appears that you can just swap keywords like now.
HOWEVER, if you want all the names Characters, strats, traits and relics that are Chapter specific, you need the supplements.
I also hope they throw in unique Troops again, I'd like to see White Scars with BIKE troops again
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Shock assault is very interesting. Though there are few, there are a couple of very potent melee units across both loyal and chaos, they have just become even more deadly.
A big death company unit can all of a sudden give ork boys a run for their money in terms of number of attacks.
Even a basic assault squad now has the potential to trade even with other melee equipped units. A full squad of 10 assault marines with jump packs gets you 22 ork slugga boyz. Since the AM will have the movement to get in without risk of getting shot with sluggers, they can down (on average) 1.85 boyz with their pistols (10*2/3*1/2*5/6), and then charge. They get overwatched against 20 sluggas (20*1/6*1/2* for .65 wounds on the marines. (we're rounding up for the sake of simplicity). Since the boy mob still has 20 models in it the ork player might be tempted to use counter attack to save the squad, but that's 2 CP being used to do that and orks lists are very CP hungry. Going first, the AM kill 7.78 orks (28*2/3*1/3*5/6), then the orks attacks for 4.26 dead marines. In total, that's 9.63 (10) dead boyz for 70 points vs 4.91 (5) dead marines for 80 points. This is still a trade down, but it's much better that they would have done previously against a unit that's generally considered a much heavier melee unit. And if there isn't a larger mob around to benefit from Mob Rule, another 1.7 gets lost to fleeing and now that's 11.33 (11) lost for 77 vs 80 trade off. Against something much lighter (shoota boyz, tau strike teams, guardsmen) or more expensive with worse melee (Necron warriors, sisters of battle, other space marines) and you're looking much better. And this is one of the worse choices in the codex.
Assuming no other buffs, Marine assault units are much more useful and Maine ranged units can threaten lighter units that get too close. If they do make Chapter Tactics better, or if there is other price drops, there could be a lot of hidden gems in this new codex.
Am wondering how easy it will be to make the walker pose like it’s running forward holding the Bolter like the AMP suits from Avatar. Yes I am that sad.
I don't get how this core codex + chapter supplements helps with the bloat. What happens when the first new Primaris unit is released? They'll all be out of date again.
So 8 Chapter tactics and 19 successor Tactics.... but weren't there 9 Legions split up once?
6 chapter tactics, BA, DA and Wolves will retain their own in their books as a guess. Leaves 21 successor tactics to pick from. Was it the 4th ed where you picked 2 and a drawback for the diy chapters?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Castor wrote: I don't get how this core codex + chapter supplements helps with the bloat. What happens when the first new Primaris unit is released? They'll all be out of date again.
It means the space marine codex gets updated and the supplements don't need reprinting or changing.
"Litanies of Faith that can be bellowed forth by the Chaplains" seems like SM Chaplains get access to prayers (equivalent) now, could be game changing for sure..
Grey Hunters are just Tactical Marines with Knives and trading a heavy for a special. Give tactical marines the options to take knives and the option of heavy/special or special/special.
I imagine the 'traits' for successor chapters will be pick two, and will be things like:
"Heroes among heroes: +1 LD" combined with things like "Combat Tactics: This unit may still shoot in the shooting phase if it retreats this turn" etc.
It'll be interesting to see if they blast Raven Guard into the ground or not.
So 8 Chapter tactics and 19 successor Tactics.... but weren't there 9 Legions split up once?
6 chapter tactics, BA, DA and Wolves will retain their own in their books as a guess. Leaves 21 successor tactics to pick from. Was it the 4th ed where you picked 2 and a drawback for the diy chapters?
warhammer community preview wrote:
Set 3 – 27 Chapter Tactics (8 Chapter Tactics, 19 Successor Tactics)
My question was: Either we don't have tactics per former Legion , thus 9 x Chapter tactics + successor tactics for SM sharing the same heritage but changing a little bit over time , or? Just curious.
Successor Tactics won't be chapter tactics + bonus, it'll be either use the Chapter Tactics of your daddy's chapter, or you went on a rebellious streak and built your own customs and traditions.
So 8 Chapter tactics and 19 successor Tactics.... but weren't there 9 Legions split up once?
6 chapter tactics, BA, DA and Wolves will retain their own in their books as a guess. Leaves 21 successor tactics to pick from. Was it the 4th ed where you picked 2 and a drawback for the diy chapters?
warhammer community preview wrote:
Set 3 – 27 Chapter Tactics (8 Chapter Tactics, 19 Successor Tactics)
My question was: Either we don't have tactics per former Legion , thus 9 x Chapter tactics + successor tactics for SM sharing the same heritage but changing a little bit over time , or? Just curious.
1 Ultramarines
2 White Scars
3 Iron hands
4 Raven Guard
5 Salamanders
6 Imperial Fists
probably...
7 Black Templars
8 Crimson Fists, because Pedro has a model and they won't cut existing material (this time)
Bans, Dans, and Woofers can still use their own codexes (thus keeping their CTs as is), until the regularly scheduled updates happen, and get permission to use the datasheets in here, which makes the update issue a little less messy.
Brother Castor wrote: I don't get how this core codex + chapter supplements helps with the bloat. What happens when the first new Primaris unit is released? They'll all be out of date again.
It means the space marine codex gets updated and the supplements don't need reprinting or changing.
Okay, but a 3rd or 4th SM codex within an edition, really?
Brother Castor wrote:So will this replace all existing SM codexes or will it be like CSM codex 2.0?
Litanies might be something that could actually make Chaplains useful which would be nice. The models have always been too cool to be sidelined for so long
Black Templars and Crimson Fists are not first founding chapters. So it's either warhammer community mistake, or we should look closer to those DA guys...
Automatically Appended Next Post: In addition to the freedom for the First Founding Chapters and their successors to make use of all 76 datasheets included in the codex,**
Silver144 wrote: In addition to the freedom for the First Founding Chapters and their successors to make use of all 76 datasheets included in the codex,**
Brother Castor wrote: I don't get how this core codex + chapter supplements helps with the bloat. What happens when the first new Primaris unit is released? They'll all be out of date again.
It means the space marine codex gets updated and the supplements don't need reprinting or changing.
Okay, but a 3rd or 4th SM codex within an edition, really?
Brother Castor wrote:So will this replace all existing SM codexes or will it be like CSM codex 2.0?
Anyone?
This will be the 2nd this edition, but depends how long the edition lasts. If it lasted 20 years and you only got 1 marine dex I'd guess you'd be upset.
Brother Castor wrote: I don't get how this core codex + chapter supplements helps with the bloat. What happens when the first new Primaris unit is released? They'll all be out of date again.
It means the space marine codex gets updated and the supplements don't need reprinting or changing.
Okay, but a 3rd or 4th SM codex within an edition, really?
Brother Castor wrote:So will this replace all existing SM codexes or will it be like CSM codex 2.0?
Anyone?
This will be the 2nd this edition, but depends how long the edition lasts. If it lasted 20 years and you only got 1 marine dex I'd guess you'd be upset.
Silver144 wrote: Black Templars and Crimson Fists are not first founding chapters. So it's either warhammer community mistake, or we should look closer to those DA guys...
Chapter does not necessarily equal First Founding Chapter when it comes to the Chapter Tactics. Outside the BA/DA/SW books, there are eight - or nine, I guess, if you include Spears of the Emperor - Chapter Tactics currently kicking around.
The Successor ones are probably the smaller ones you can mix & match to make your own Chapter from.
Silver144 wrote: Black Templars and Crimson Fists are not first founding chapters. So it's either warhammer community mistake, or we should look closer to those DA guys...
Automatically Appended Next Post: In addition to the freedom for the First Founding Chapters and their successors to make use of all 76 datasheets included in the codex,**
this was removed from the article...
Considering that Black Templars already have their own Chapter Tactics in Codex Space Marines and Crimson Fists are a famous enough Chapter (they have been on the cover of Rulebooks and Codexes) and have their own Chapter Tactics as well, I would place money on them being the two other CT.
Silver144 wrote: Black Templars and Crimson Fists are not first founding chapters. So it's either warhammer community mistake, or we should look closer to those DA guys...
Chapter does not necessarily equal First Founding Chapter when it comes to the Chapter Tactics. Outside the BA/DA/SW books, there are eight - or nine, I guess, if you include Spears of the Emperor - Chapter Tactics currently kicking around.
The Successor ones are probably the smaller ones you can mix & match to make your own Chapter from.
In community article they directly stated 8 first founding chapter tactic, maybe they already edited that.
In addition to the freedom for the First Founding Chapters and their successors to make use of all 76 datasheets included in the codex
So Space Wolves can use Tactical Marines now?
The current codex has 85 datasheets in it. If this one is adding the new stuff, Executioner, Rhinopulsor, Infiltrators, all that. . .then we're probably looking at at least 20 fewer data sheets than are in the current book.
Silver144 wrote: Black Templars and Crimson Fists are not first founding chapters. So it's either warhammer community mistake, or we should look closer to those DA guys...
Chapter does not necessarily equal First Founding Chapter when it comes to the Chapter Tactics. Outside the BA/DA/SW books, there are eight - or nine, I guess, if you include Spears of the Emperor - Chapter Tactics currently kicking around.
The Successor ones are probably the smaller ones you can mix & match to make your own Chapter from.
In community article they directly stated 8 first founding chapter tactic, maybe they already edited that.
Except they didn't. They said 8 Chapter Tactics.
Successor Tactics are something entirely different. The article yesterday says that you pick two of them to make your Chapter Tactic.
In addition to the freedom for the First Founding Chapters and their successors to make use of all 76 datasheets included in the codex
So Space Wolves can use Tactical Marines now?
The current codex has 85 datasheets in it. If this one is adding the new stuff, Executioner, Rhinopulsor, Infiltrators, all that. . .then we're probably looking at at least 20 fewer data sheets than are in the current book.
So I wonder what they cut?
All the named characters are likely pulled to the appropriate supplement. Same with crusader squads for templars I bet. And they might merge a few entries for characters with alternate wargear.
The current codex has 85 datasheets in it. If this one is adding the new stuff, Executioner, Rhinopulsor, Infiltrators, all that. . .then we're probably looking at at least 20 fewer data sheets than are in the current book.
So I wonder what they cut?
All the special characters and other chapter specific stuff. That goes into the supplements.
We have comfirmation that BA, DA and SW are not getting suppliments at this stage.
GW fb reply:
"Hey Michael,
They keep their codexes, and will get access to the new units and new special rules introduced in this book."
" ** Yes, that includes Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels! Have you ever wanted to carry Bjorn the Fell-Handed or Murderfang to battle using a Stormraven Gunship? Well, now you can!"
So that clears some of the confusion. My guess is that the current BA, DA, and SW Codices will function as supplements for the time being while the other first founding chapters will be in the 6 announced supplements.
In the future I would expect those three chapters to use this supplement system."
But we will be getting a PDF faq to update our codexes and hopefully an update to the digital copy.
But I am interested in making a custom Wolfspear successor from the new codex.
I'm also happy that instead of making marines cheaper they are making them better to retain the small number of elite warriors instead of making them horde.
lonewolf81 wrote: do sw,ba,da get access to the strats,powers of the main codex???
For the time being, I don't think there are any clear informations on that. I believe that DA, BA and SW, like DeathWatch and Grey Knight still don't get anything from this space marine release and will have to wait a little.
I'm also happy that instead of making marines cheaper they are making them better to retain the small number of elite warriors instead of making them horde.
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Yep. That certainly is an excellent thing. I'm really interested in knowing what those combat doctrines do. There was rumour earlier which said: "Marines will gain a rule included in the new Angel of Death rule, SM will gain +1A during the first fight phase or something like that. But that's not all, we have something like the Deathwatch Doctrine! At the start of each turn/round, we can choose one, and one of them is awesome, a bonus of -1 to AP in the shooting or fighting phase." As the extra attack part was correct, perhaps the rest of it is too?
lonewolf81 wrote: do sw,ba,da get access to the strats,powers of the main codex???
For the time being, I don't think there are any clear informations on that. I believe that DA, BA and SW, like DeathWatch and Grey Knight still don't get anything from this space marine release and will have to wait a little.
It was confirmed that frist founding chapters get access to all the datasheets from the new codex and will be FAQed in. We will be getting shock assault but no word on stratagems or powers yet.
I'm also happy that instead of making marines cheaper they are making them better to retain the small number of elite warriors instead of making them horde.
[/size]
Yep. That certainly is an excellent thing. I'm really interested in knowing what those combat doctrines do. There was rumour earlier which said: "Marines will gain a rule included in the new Angel of Death rule, SM will gain +1A during the first fight phase or something like that. But that's not all, we have something like the Deathwatch Doctrine! At the start of each turn/round, we can choose one, and one of them is awesome, a bonus of -1 to AP in the shooting or fighting phase." As the extra attack part was correct, perhaps the rest of it is too?
I hope so, doubtful but hopeful. I hope our chaplains and wolf priests get litanies
lonewolf81 wrote: do sw,ba,da get access to the strats,powers of the main codex???
For the time being, I don't think there are any clear informations on that. I believe that DA, BA and SW, like DeathWatch and Grey Knight still don't get anything from this space marine release and will have to wait a little.
It was confirmed that frist founding chapters get access to all the datasheets from the new codex and will be FAQed in. We will be getting shock assault but no word on stratagems or powers yet.
Does it means that, as a DA player, I can play centurions and Stormtalon ?
Brother Castor wrote:So will this replace all existing SM codexes or will it be like CSM codex 2.0?
Anyone?
Yea, this is something I want to know too.
CSM 2.0 was good, I got it free because I bought digital, although the GW flow chart failed to cover this properly.
Hopefully the main Codex book will be the same, SM 2.0, and then the additional chapter specific "books" will be low cost extra. Of course, by GW standards they're likely to be £20 a pop with a £30 Codex.
BrianDavion wrote: Have new chaplain litanies been confirmed then? if so crap it might make chaplains worth running!
Well, there are references to "Litanies of Faith that can be bellowed forth by the Chaplains", while one of the card decks with the LE book is described as "Set 2 – 48 cards (38 Stratagems, 3 Combat Doctrines, 7 Litanies of Battle)", so I guess so.
BrianDavion wrote: Have new chaplain litanies been confirmed then? if so crap it might make chaplains worth running!
Well, there are references to "Litanies of Faith that can be bellowed forth by the Chaplains", while one of the card decks with the LE book is described as "Set 2 – 48 cards (38 Stratagems, 3 Combat Doctrines, 7 Litanies of Battle)", so I guess so.
awesome! I've always loved the look of chaplains but they're very much a ".. yeah a Lt is better in every way" unit
How long do we think this new book will be good for?
Two years out of the last one seems a bit light to me. I was honestly just expecting a addendum Primaris codex from this release, not a whole new issue plus splat books. Is it going to last into 9th?
At least I bought mine at release, I imagine anyone who has bought it the last couple months is a mite annoyed.
argonak wrote: How long do we think this new book will be good for?
Two years out of the last one seems a bit light to me. I was honestly just expecting a addendum Primaris codex from this release, not a whole new issue plus splat books. Is it going to last into 9th?
I think the idea is that this is the last edition in their eyes, just revisions and consolidating the changes every few years. History tells us it probs won't work that way but I think that was the intent at least.
I really hope SW, DA and BA will not wait a year or two to get their codex updated too with strategems, doctrines and pray... ehm, I mean Litanies.
New unit entry is nice, but in this edition strategems and special rules makes an army good.
Crazyterran wrote: Grey Hunters are just Tactical Marines with Knives and trading a heavy for a special. Give tactical marines the options to take knives and the option of heavy/special or special/special.
I imagine the 'traits' for successor chapters will be pick two, and will be things like:
"Heroes among heroes: +1 LD" combined with things like "Combat Tactics: This unit may still shoot in the shooting phase if it retreats this turn" etc.
It'll be interesting to see if they blast Raven Guard into the ground or not.
Nah I think they will still let the Snowflake Chapters pretend all their units are sooooo unique.....
Are the other SW/DA/BA players really saying - "we want all of our own super special toys that only we can use plus everything every other Marine gets" cos thats not stupid is it?
Having both old DA/SW armies - little of the new wolfy wolf wolfier crap - I am happy that other Chapters, ESPECIAlLLY the neglected First Foundings like Salmanders White Scars and Iron Hands are finally getting some interest but a bit worried about them getting flanderised
of the new units: not sure about the stripped down Dreadnought...Rhino suffers from the new "must glue on more guns" Tigerius and Khan are not bad.
Snipers are good (although Anvil Industries ones are as good)
Reiver guy is cool
the marine squad I also like
Crazyterran wrote: Grey Hunters are just Tactical Marines with Knives and trading a heavy for a special. Give tactical marines the options to take knives and the option of heavy/special or special/special.
I imagine the 'traits' for successor chapters will be pick two, and will be things like:
"Heroes among heroes: +1 LD" combined with things like "Combat Tactics: This unit may still shoot in the shooting phase if it retreats this turn" etc.
It'll be interesting to see if they blast Raven Guard into the ground or not.
Nah I think they will still let the Snowflake Chapters pretend all their units are sooooo unique.....
Are the other SW/DA/BA players really saying - "we want all of our own super special toys that only we can use plus everything every other Marine gets" cos thats not stupid is it?
Having both old DA/SW armies - little of the new wolfy wolf wolfier crap - I am happy that other Chapters, ESPECIAlLLY the neglected First Foundings like Salmanders White Scars and Iron Hands are finally getting some interest but a bit worried about them getting flanderised
of the new units: not sure about the stripped down Dreadnought...Rhino suffers from the new "must glue on more guns" Tigerius and Khan are not bad.
I'm pretty happy with the first founding having more choice, but as an old DA player, I will be a little disappointed if that leads to a stream lining of the entire space marine range with the disappearance of what constituted the specificity of the chapter I was playing. And I don't see how that is stupid or snowflake.
To be honest I have no prolem with GW making gray hunters just a tactical marines, long fangs just a devastators, wolf guards - sternguards and vanguards.
Maybe they could add some flavor there - like "SW tacticals could take ccw", but only to not obsolete current minis. I mean they still sell this SWGH boxes with chainsword for everyone.
Maybe they should let all tactical marines take combat knives, a little buff for underdog unit.
IMHO the thing about "all unnits in this book are usable by the other first founding chapters" I think is more GW saying "yeah the vanguard stuff is avaliable to space wolves, dark angels etc" expect a ".. no we didn't mean THAT" clarification to be issued if people start trying to take Gulliman in space wolf colours
BrianDavion wrote: IMHO the thing about "all unnits in this book are usable by the other first founding chapters" I think is more GW saying "yeah the vanguard stuff is avaliable to space wolves, dark angels etc" expect a ".. no we didn't mean THAT" clarification to be issued if people start trying to take Gulliman in space wolf colours
Oh, that would be neat. And fluffy too. I mean, he is the Lord Commandor and Son of God, he should hang out the best of the best.
Crazyterran wrote: Grey Hunters are just Tactical Marines with Knives and trading a heavy for a special. Give tactical marines the options to take knives and the option of heavy/special or special/special.
I imagine the 'traits' for successor chapters will be pick two, and will be things like:
"Heroes among heroes: +1 LD" combined with things like "Combat Tactics: This unit may still shoot in the shooting phase if it retreats this turn" etc.
It'll be interesting to see if they blast Raven Guard into the ground or not.
Nah I think they will still let the Snowflake Chapters pretend all their units are sooooo unique.....
Are the other SW/DA/BA players really saying - "we want all of our own super special toys that only we can use plus everything every other Marine gets" cos thats not stupid is it?
Having both old DA/SW armies - little of the new wolfy wolf wolfier crap - I am happy that other Chapters, ESPECIAlLLY the neglected First Foundings like Salmanders White Scars and Iron Hands are finally getting some interest but a bit worried about them getting flanderised
of the new units: not sure about the stripped down Dreadnought...Rhino suffers from the new "must glue on more guns" Tigerius and Khan are not bad.
I'm pretty happy with the first founding having more choice, but as an old DA player, I will be a little disappointed if that leads to a stream lining of the entire space marine range with the disappearance of what constituted the specificity of the chapter I was playing. And I don't see how that is stupid or snowflake.
Good job I didn;t say that then isn't it.
What I said was stupid was some people saying "WAHHHH we should have all the basic Marine toys AND our own that no one else can have because...........we are special"
Unless they get rid of bikes and Terminators as an Old DA player then what else do you see as a DA specaility. And even then its only recently that the models became "special" - paint colour and some heraldry was enought was it not?
Before GW restorted to sticking the word Blood, Wolf or Dark in front of everything.
To be honest I have no prolem with GW making gray hunters just a tactical marines, long fangs just a devastators, wolf guards - sternguards and vanguards.
Maybe they could add some flavor there - like "SW tacticals could take ccw", but only to not obsolete current minis. I mean they still sell this SWGH boxes with chainsword for everyone.
Maybe they should let all tactical marines take combat knives, a little buff for underdog uni
Giving Tacticals the chainsword/CCW option only allows many more Chapters to actually reflect their own lore and just removes a pretend special element of the Wolves but not any game play options.
BrianDavion wrote: IMHO the thing about "all unnits in this book are usable by the other first founding chapters" I think is more GW saying "yeah the vanguard stuff is avaliable to space wolves, dark angels etc" expect a ".. no we didn't mean THAT" clarification to be issued if people start trying to take Gulliman in space wolf colours
I'm pretty sure the big G will be in the Ultramarines supplement, not the main book
BrianDavion wrote: IMHO the thing about "all unnits in this book are usable by the other first founding chapters" I think is more GW saying "yeah the vanguard stuff is avaliable to space wolves, dark angels etc" expect a ".. no we didn't mean THAT" clarification to be issued if people start trying to take Gulliman in space wolf colours
That's a non-problem, since he has Ultramarine keyword and not <chapter>.
You can soup him, same as now, but a Wolfy Roboute isn't possible either way.
Mr Morden wrote: Unless they get rid of bikes and Terminators as an Old DA player then what else do you see as a DA specaility. And even then its only recently that the models became "special" - paint colour and some heraldry was enought was it not?
Before GW restorted to sticking the word Blood, Wolf or Dark in front of everything.
Can't speak to the Deathwing off the top of my head, but the Ravenwing have had distinctive options/loadouts/rules since 2nd edition - so hardly "recently".
In addition to the freedom for the First Founding Chapters and their successors to make use of all 76 datasheets included in the codex
So Space Wolves can use Tactical Marines now?
The current codex has 85 datasheets in it. If this one is adding the new stuff, Executioner, Rhinopulsor, Infiltrators, all that. . .then we're probably looking at at least 20 fewer data sheets than are in the current book.
So I wonder what they cut?
Characters and Chapter specific items most likely.
Ultramarines -Guilliman
-Calgar
-Victrix Guard
-Chronus
-Tigurius
-Telion
-Cassius
-Sicarius
Black Templars -Grimaldus
-Helbrecht
-Emperor's Champion
-Crusader Squad
-Cenobyte Servitors
White Scars -Kor'sarro Khan
Raven Guard -Kayvaan Shrike
Salamanders -Vulkan He'stan
Imperial Fists -Captain Lysander
Crimson Fists -Pedro Kantor
That's 18 items right there.
The Vanguard side of things brought 3 units(Infiltrators, Suppressors, and Eliminators) and 3 character 'variants'(Lt, Captain, Librarian in Phobos). Given that we've seen another Lieutenant in Phobos Armor that we know will be coming out I don't think it unreasonable to believe that Primaris Captains, Librarians, and Lieutenants will be getting options baked into their profiles rather than individual datasheets.
Here’s the thing with the whole DA, BA, SW argument..
As someone said, remove all the SM rules stuff from their codexes, and they are down to 100 ish pages, so should fit in a supplement. Yeah I agree, they Would fit.
But take DA, 20 odd units unique to them in there, I believe someone said spanning 17 pages for the unit entries..
So their supplement would get 20% of it as rules/unit entries etc.
But then White Scars, they are going to get what 3/4 pages of rules - they just don’t have the units/characters to fill it up.
So either they get loads more fluff or something, either way it doesn’t balance out.
I would imagine each supplement will be of a similar set up, units and characters, fluff, rules, etc etc in the same quantities..
It just doesn’t make sense as a move really.
And the other thing, assuming you want to play competitively/have a full army list/whatever. They make more money:
You play SM, you buy the Codex.
You play UM/WS or one of them, you buy Codex AND a supplement.
You play DA, BA, SW, you buy your Codex, and the SM Codex
Mr Morden wrote: Unless they get rid of bikes and Terminators as an Old DA player then what else do you see as a DA specaility. And even then its only recently that the models became "special" - paint colour and some heraldry was enought was it not?
Before GW restorted to sticking the word Blood, Wolf or Dark in front of everything.
Can't speak to the Deathwing off the top of my head, but the Ravenwing have had distinctive options/loadouts/rules since 2nd edition - so hardly "recently".
As I said the MODELS were pretty much ALL standard Marines - Looking at old codexs right now. Again AS I Said - there were a few bits of heraldy here and there.
They had a couple of rules - so a line or two - thats it. So Ravenguard were standard Bikes and Speeders a bit harder to hit and Deathwing were immune to Psycology. Not hard to put as a unit option for those unit entries?
Crazyterran wrote: Grey Hunters are just Tactical Marines with Knives and trading a heavy for a special. Give tactical marines the options to take knives and the option of heavy/special or special/special.
I imagine the 'traits' for successor chapters will be pick two, and will be things like:
"Heroes among heroes: +1 LD" combined with things like "Combat Tactics: This unit may still shoot in the shooting phase if it retreats this turn" etc.
It'll be interesting to see if they blast Raven Guard into the ground or not.
Nah I think they will still let the Snowflake Chapters pretend all their units are sooooo unique.....
Are the other SW/DA/BA players really saying - "we want all of our own super special toys that only we can use plus everything every other Marine gets" cos thats not stupid is it?
Having both old DA/SW armies - little of the new wolfy wolf wolfier crap - I am happy that other Chapters, ESPECIAlLLY the neglected First Foundings like Salmanders White Scars and Iron Hands are finally getting some interest but a bit worried about them getting flanderised
of the new units: not sure about the stripped down Dreadnought...Rhino suffers from the new "must glue on more guns" Tigerius and Khan are not bad.
I'm pretty happy with the first founding having more choice, but as an old DA player, I will be a little disappointed if that leads to a stream lining of the entire space marine range with the disappearance of what constituted the specificity of the chapter I was playing. And I don't see how that is stupid or snowflake.
Good job I didn;t say that then isn't it.
What I said was stupid was some people saying "WAHHHH we should have all the basic Marine toys AND our own that no one else can have because...........we are special"
Unless they get rid of bikes and Terminators as an Old DA player then what else do you see as a DA specaility. And even then its only recently that the models became "special" - paint colour and some heraldry was enought was it not?
Before GW restorted to sticking the word Blood, Wolf or Dark in front of everything.
To be honest I have no prolem with GW making gray hunters just a tactical marines, long fangs just a devastators, wolf guards - sternguards and vanguards.
Maybe they could add some flavor there - like "SW tacticals could take ccw", but only to not obsolete current minis. I mean they still sell this SWGH boxes with chainsword for everyone. Maybe they should let all tactical marines take combat knives, a little buff for underdog uni
Giving Tacticals the chainsword/CCW option only allows many more Chapters to actually reflect their own lore and just removes a pretend special element of the Wolves but not any game play options.
So you're saying it's okay if GW streamline the SM line and thus gives the ravenwing black knight, the darkshroud and the dark talon to everyone, or just make those units disappear ? ... duh ...
Mr Morden wrote: Unless they get rid of bikes and Terminators as an Old DA player then what else do you see as a DA specaility. And even then its only recently that the models became "special" - paint colour and some heraldry was enought was it not?
Before GW restorted to sticking the word Blood, Wolf or Dark in front of everything.
Can't speak to the Deathwing off the top of my head, but the Ravenwing have had distinctive options/loadouts/rules since 2nd edition - so hardly "recently".
As I said the MODELS were pretty much ALL standard Marines - Looking at old codexs right now. Again AS I Said - there were a few bits of heraldy here and there.
They had a couple of rules - so a line or two - thats it. So Ravenguard were standard Bikes and Speeders a bit harder to hit and Deathwing were immune to Psycology. Not hard to put as a unit option for those unit entries?
Back then, like in the third edition (when DA had a codex supplement, like BA) the SM codex was thin as hell (I have it next to me it had 48 pages ! and only 8 pages of unit datasheets), because overall most armies had less possibilities. So I don't get your argument.
PS : the predator baal and the furioso already existed in the 3rd ed., so yeah differences in units is old.
Danny76 wrote: Here’s the thing with the whole DA, BA, SW argument..
As someone said, remove all the SM rules stuff from their codexes, and they are down to 100 ish pages, so should fit in a supplement. Yeah I agree, they Would fit.
But take DA, 20 odd units unique to them in there, I believe someone said spanning 17 pages for the unit entries..
And how many of them could or would not be represented by a similar unit in another Chapter....
So one thing no one seems to be discussing is the sucessor tactics. I admit to some excitement over this as it'll likely really add some character to "your dudes" I think we saw how this'll work (sort of) in the blood ravens supplement. as they mention two abilities, and the BRs neatly divided into two distinct abilities. looking forward to seeing howe this'll work, and getting my storm crows ultima founding chapter painted up
Crazyterran wrote: Grey Hunters are just Tactical Marines with Knives and trading a heavy for a special. Give tactical marines the options to take knives and the option of heavy/special or special/special.
I imagine the 'traits' for successor chapters will be pick two, and will be things like:
"Heroes among heroes: +1 LD" combined with things like "Combat Tactics: This unit may still shoot in the shooting phase if it retreats this turn" etc.
It'll be interesting to see if they blast Raven Guard into the ground or not.
Nah I think they will still let the Snowflake Chapters pretend all their units are sooooo unique.....
Are the other SW/DA/BA players really saying - "we want all of our own super special toys that only we can use plus everything every other Marine gets" cos thats not stupid is it?
Having both old DA/SW armies - little of the new wolfy wolf wolfier crap - I am happy that other Chapters, ESPECIAlLLY the neglected First Foundings like Salmanders White Scars and Iron Hands are finally getting some interest but a bit worried about them getting flanderised
of the new units: not sure about the stripped down Dreadnought...Rhino suffers from the new "must glue on more guns" Tigerius and Khan are not bad.
I'm pretty happy with the first founding having more choice, but as an old DA player, I will be a little disappointed if that leads to a stream lining of the entire space marine range with the disappearance of what constituted the specificity of the chapter I was playing. And I don't see how that is stupid or snowflake.
Good job I didn;t say that then isn't it.
What I said was stupid was some people saying "WAHHHH we should have all the basic Marine toys AND our own that no one else can have because...........we are special"
Unless they get rid of bikes and Terminators as an Old DA player then what else do you see as a DA specaility. And even then its only recently that the models became "special" - paint colour and some heraldry was enought was it not?
Before GW restorted to sticking the word Blood, Wolf or Dark in front of everything.
To be honest I have no prolem with GW making gray hunters just a tactical marines, long fangs just a devastators, wolf guards - sternguards and vanguards.
Maybe they could add some flavor there - like "SW tacticals could take ccw", but only to not obsolete current minis. I mean they still sell this SWGH boxes with chainsword for everyone.
Maybe they should let all tactical marines take combat knives, a little buff for underdog uni
Giving Tacticals the chainsword/CCW option only allows many more Chapters to actually reflect their own lore and just removes a pretend special element of the Wolves but not any game play options.
So you're saying it's okay if GW streamline the SM line and thus gives the ravenwing black knight, the darkshroud and the dark talon to everyone, or just make them disappear ? ... duh ...
#
Its ok by me as I think they look like crap, same with Thunder Wolves, Wolfen and a load of other stuff - but I see you want to immediately scream and go to extremes
Do you really think that the lore and game will break if the generic tactical Squad includes the Grey Hunter options - REALLY
However again - many of these units would be represented by a similar unit in another Chapter - so Black Dragons have similar mutation problems to Wolves
@Kanluwen - And some of those characters will feature multiple datasheets, too. Calgar is on, what, three different ones in 8th now? And anyone who is getting attacked with a bicycle pump while already having a profile is going to need two entries.
BrianDavion wrote: So one thing no one seems to be discussing is the sucessor tactics. I admit to some excitement over this as it'll likely really add some character to "your dudes" I think we saw how this'll work (sort of) in the blood ravens supplement. as they mention two abilities, and the BRs neatly divided into two distinct abilities. looking forward to seeing howe this'll work, and getting my storm crows ultima founding chapter painted up
Eh. Not much to discuss until we know what they are.
I like the idea in theory for more support for DYI chapters rather than the weird overspecialization without actually being specialized and dogmatic silliness that plagues the big chapters. Almost all of them are complete wackadoodles rather than professional soldiers, and personally I find that untenable.
But realistically, this sort of 'pick from a list' thing doesn't go well. Some are nigh game-breakingly good, and others are damp squibs.
But realistically, this sort of 'pick from a list' thing doesn't go well. Some are nigh game-breakingly good, and others are damp squibs.
¨
Almost certainly, but the same is true for current faction traits as well, and with a much larger selection there is a chance that there will be several that are viable.
But realistically, this sort of 'pick from a list' thing doesn't go well. Some are nigh game-breakingly good, and others are damp squibs.
¨
Almost certainly, but the same is true for current faction traits as well, and with a much larger selection there is a chance that there will be several that are viable.
also since it's "pick two from a list" chances are you'll be able to do a "pick one that keeps you compeitive, and pick one that's reasonably fluffy"
It's good, and a little annoying, that there'll be a load of new releases so soon. Annoying because I'm going to the London GT in mid September, and these guys will be out just in time for me to need to do a ton of painting for it! Boo to that.
On the other hand though, I do like how my marines keep getting better. Maybe one day they'll actually be a viable army to take to tournaments. You never know.
ulfhednir86 wrote: I'm also happy that instead of making marines cheaper they are making them better to retain the small number of elite warriors instead of making them horde.
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Yeah, I think this is a really good move on their part.
Insectum7 wrote: I hope one Chapter trait is "Does not trust/have Primaris"
I don't think you need a trait for that. Just don't include them in your army.
yeah, given what we've been told it looks like each sucessor chapter will be able to take two "traits" that will be chapter tactic rules. so the list might include things like..
1:any weapon that rolls 1 or 2 on wound rolls fails to wound
2: Psykers can re-roll 1s.
3: all units have +1 leadership
4: all units can re-roll charges
etc. so you mix and match, and are like "well my chapter are a buncha tough bastards who never say die, we also are reknowned for our psykers. so I'm gonna take option 1 and option 2. And call my new chapter... eh the blood ravens. yeah tyhats it!"
I like special snowflake stuff, even though it does contribute to rules bloat. They had reasons to focus on Ultras, BA, DA and SW at first, but in my opinion they have gone too far and been neglecting other chapters like White Scars and Iron Hands.
It would be cool if instead of cutting stuff from BA, DA and SW they gave stuff to the others, but I can see how they might see that as being way too much stuff to support.
I think a lot of stuff can be done through stratagems, including "upgrade" stratagems that turn a unit of X into a unit of Y without having to have a separate model.
I'm not as familiar with normal SM, but when it comes to CSM I often see the argument that "Legion X shouldn't get a book because they don't have anything special." The thing I've noticed is that when you dig into the fluff for them they have tons of special stuff, it just never gets rules or models because they don't get as much attention as the more favored Legions. I'm guessing the same is true for many chapters like Salamanders and Raven Guard but I don't know for certain.
I'm not saying that everything needs its own stand-alone codex and model range, I think a lot can be done with supplements and rules rather than models, I just think it would be cool to see some of those factions get a turn in the spotlight.
They literally have said that these supplements include:
-A unique Librarius discipline
-Special characters
-"Bespoke Relics"(the "Relics" part is important I feel! Right now there's just 1 per Chapter if they don't have a Codex)
-Warlord Traits -Objectives
-Stratagems -"many other abilities that help to define their character"
We don't know exactly what the last one means but there's a lot of love coming their way.
Not read whole thread but there are 6 listed supplements in the picture.
Chapter Tactics is listed in the following order.
Ultrammarines > White Scars > Imperial Fists > Black Templars > Salamanders > Raven Guard.
RIP Iron Hands.
Not sure if one of above is getting their own codex?
I kinda see the redacted is P obviously the first 6 of the above.. Iron Hands being not as well known/played.
Also wanted to mentioned all successor chapters will be covered by player choice at the back of the new SM Codex 2.0. This reminds me of the rules chaos got for Renegade Chapters in Vigilus Ablaze.
Expect Black Templars to be part of a "Sons of Dorn" book, since they're really the odd ones out with Crimson Fists, Black Templars, and the Imperial Fists having their own schticks.
NivlacSupreme wrote: Does anybody else find it funny that the enormous transhuman in a suit of power armour still wears a leather glove in order for his bird to sit on his arm?
Assuming no one answered this, it's for the bird's sake, not the Marine.
About 30 people answered this...
Yeah, I answered it when I thought there was one page, because I forgot to refresh before posting.
The other aspect is I wondering if they are going to cut datasheets.
E.g. SM Codex 2.0 will contain only generic <Chapter> datasheets.
Ultramarines Supplement
will include all named characters
-new models (Tyranid War Vets coming back?)
-new strat/relics/warlord traits/etc
-unique psychic discipline.
Insectum7 wrote: I hope one Chapter trait is "Does not trust/have Primaris"
I don't think you need a trait for that. Just don't include them in your army.
No no, I get that. I just think it would be cool if it were one of the traits, and there was some bonus or something to go along with it. It would just be a fun acknowledgement by GW that some people aren't on all aboard the Primaris train.
Insectum7 wrote: I hope one Chapter trait is "Does not trust/have Primaris"
I don't think you need a trait for that. Just don't include them in your army.
No no, I get that. I just think it would be cool if it were one of the traits, and there was some bonus or something to go along with it. It would just be a fun acknowledgement by GW that some people aren't on all aboard the Primaris train.
Putting feelings about them aside, that makes for terrible rule design and balance.
'Get bonuses for not having X' is pure gravy, especially if its something people would design an army around not having in the first place.
Its exactly the kind of thing that went wrong with the DYI chapters and guard companies way back when, and the design problems they caused largely why they vanished into the ether.
Insectum7 wrote: I hope one Chapter trait is "Does not trust/have Primaris"
I don't think you need a trait for that. Just don't include them in your army.
No no, I get that. I just think it would be cool if it were one of the traits, and there was some bonus or something to go along with it. It would just be a fun acknowledgement by GW that some people aren't on all aboard the Primaris train.
GW wont acknowledge that though, because theyve been going around in all the books giving them to everyone, even the chapters that dont want them. They make those that dont want them take them at gunpoint essentially.
Insectum7 wrote: I hope one Chapter trait is "Does not trust/have Primaris"
I don't think you need a trait for that. Just don't include them in your army.
No no, I get that. I just think it would be cool if it were one of the traits, and there was some bonus or something to go along with it. It would just be a fun acknowledgement by GW that some people aren't on all aboard the Primaris train.
Putting feelings about them aside, that makes for terrible rule design and balance.
'Get bonuses for not having X' is pure gravy, especially if its something people would design an army around not having in the first place.
Its exactly the kind of thing that went wrong with the DYI chapters and guard companies way back when, and the design problems they caused largely why they vanished into the ether.
People already design their armies around not having things, so making that their draw back is fine. Kinda the whole point.
the problem is, if you design your army around not having X. and you can abuse the traits system (maybe getting a third trait in return for you army not having X) it could be pretty imbalanced because many killer lists could be designed without said unit. "I can't take primaris" realisticly isn't much of a disadvantage.
GW wont acknowledge that though, because theyve been going around in all the books giving them to everyone, even the chapters that dont want them. They make those that dont want them take them at gunpoint essentially.
indeed, basicly the custodes show up and say "this is a gift from the emperor.. only heretics would refuse a gift from the emperor"
BrianDavion wrote: the problem is, if you design your army around not having X. and you can abuse the traits system (maybe getting a third trait in return for you army not having X) it could be pretty imbalanced because many killer lists could be designed without said unit. "I can't take primaris" realisticly isn't much of a disadvantage.
Kind of like the old "You can have an extra Heavy Support but you can only take one Fast Attack" restriction that wasn't a restriction at all for gunline players?
BrianDavion wrote: the problem is, if you design your army around not having X. and you can abuse the traits system (maybe getting a third trait in return for you army not having X) it could be pretty imbalanced because many killer lists could be designed without said unit. "I can't take primaris" realisticly isn't much of a disadvantage.
Kind of like the old "You can have an extra Heavy Support but you can only take one Fast Attack" restriction that wasn't a restriction at all for gunline players?
exactly. I mean restrictions like that is fun to use to design chapters in house sometimes, but... in a compeitive enviroment it breaks down fast
Bonuses based around giving things up never work. CSM 3.5, Guard Doctrines and 4th Ed Marine Chapter Traits are all wonderful examples of that. It almost worked with the Marine Chapter Traits, because some of the disadvantages were pretty harsh, but then they went and added the "Cannot take allies!" downside, and if you weren't going to take Inquisition/GKs/SoBs, then it wasn't a disadvantage.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: People already design their armies around not having things, so making that their draw back is fine. Kinda the whole point.
Not what he's saying. He's specifically saying that giving bonuses to an army for not taking something is a bad way to write rules, because the people who never intended to take the thing they're "giving up" lose nothing as a result, and only gain something.
The simplest example is CSM 3.5 Iron Warriors. To get a 4th Heavy they had to give up 2 Fast Attack slots. Most people didn't take Fast Attack slots in CSM armies anyway (Raptors and Bikers... yay?), so 'giving up' those units to get another Defiler was not a disadvantage in any way.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: ... theyve been going around in all the books giving them to everyone, even the chapters that dont want them. They make those that dont want them take them at gunpoint essentially.
Insectum7 wrote: I hope one Chapter trait is "Does not trust/have Primaris"
I don't think you need a trait for that. Just don't include them in your army.
No no, I get that. I just think it would be cool if it were one of the traits, and there was some bonus or something to go along with it. It would just be a fun acknowledgement by GW that some people aren't on all aboard the Primaris train.
Putting feelings about them aside, that makes for terrible rule design and balance.
'Get bonuses for not having X' is pure gravy, especially if its something people would design an army around not having in the first place.
Its exactly the kind of thing that went wrong with the DYI chapters and guard companies way back when, and the design problems they caused largely why they vanished into the ether.
:shrug: I understand that, too. But I loved the DIY stuff, and think that's more important to the overall game then strict competetive balancing. People already swap factions for competition anyways (playing Deathwatch units instead of Space Marine ones) so, whatevs, imo.
I don't understand why the "Space Wolf Tactical Squad" thing is such a big deal. Black Templars can already take Tactical Squads despite such things explicitly not existing in the fluff. Just like a Tactical Squad is worse than a Crusader Squad, so a Tactical Squad is worse than a Grey Hunter squad anyway, so you wouldn't take them.
I hope this means i can have very powerful melee / ranged armies.
I want to see what they do and what units are benefited the most. Hopefully theey also give us access to paragon blades of some kind. and remove thunderhammers from the top.
BrianDavion wrote: I tend to view the "first founders can all take this" as being with a major cavet.
They already removed that line.
no suprise there. now I do remember when the last space Marine codex came out they told SW/BA/DA players they can buy it and use the new primaris in it./ I'd expect that to remain the case
H.B.M.C. wrote: Because Space Wolves are a non-Codex Chapter, and therefore should (and do) have a completely unique organisation.
Yeah, because both Index SM and HH books didn't demonstrated already how easy it is to make SW army list by just swapping names, adding a few options, and generally resorting to wolfwolfwolf only in the case of the most special snowflake units. Oh wait, they did, and nothing stops them doing it once again.
And yeah, sooo "unique", no other chapter has companies led by captains-- oh wait Salamanders, Iron Hands, Sons of Medusa, Star Phantoms, and dozens of others also have just as "unique", nonstandard numbers of companies or marines per company yet somehow fit neatly into Codex: SM. Go figure...
So as well as the transport with no doors, I was just looking at the sniper marines and I noticed that they went to the effort of sculpting top rails on the rifles for scopes etc.
However the rifles with scopes all seem to have the scopes not attached to the rail, I know it’s minor but it still bugs me.
SeanDrake wrote: However the rifles with scopes all seem to have the scopes not attached to the rail, I know it’s minor but it still bugs me.
I noticed that yesterday. They're very cool looking minis, but why have a rail mount if you're going to attach your scope above the... whatever that round thing is. I'd say cylinder, but it has a magazine...
I guess that's the inherent problem with trying to make Marine weapons "TactiCool". You end up with things that don't make sense. I expect that their grenades will have silencers soon enough.
SeanDrake wrote: However the rifles with scopes all seem to have the scopes not attached to the rail, I know it’s minor but it still bugs me.
I noticed that yesterday. They're very cool looking minis, but why have a rail mount if you're going to attach your scope above the... whatever that round thing is. I'd say cylinder, but it has a magazine...
I guess that's the inherent problem with trying to make Marine weapons "TactiCool". You end up with things that don't make sense. I expect that their grenades will have silencers soon enough.
Adjustable scope? where it sometimes rides on the side instead if you wish to use the iron sights? don't know. Who knows with 40k
Though i am interested what the white scars rules will be.
My biggest hope is that people will not be able to us any chapters army and jump around to any faction they want using the same characters from all across the chapters as their own.
Like Carachadons, and unknown foundings being forced to use their own rules or successor rules. Know of some people who abuse the space marine rules to jump chapter to chapter.
My biggest hope is that people will not be able to us any chapters army and jump around to any faction they want using the same characters from all across the chapters as their own.
Like Carachadons, and unknown foundings being forced to use their own rules or successor rules.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: And Black Templars, the example I explicitly used, aren't and shouldn't?
The problem with BTs is that they have fewer units.
I mean they lose Tac Squads, Scout Squads, Sternguard, Librarians and Dev Squads, and get Crusader Squads, Emp's Champs, and Sword Brethren back as a replacements. They keep Assault Squads, the two flavours of Terminator units, Bikers and I guess you could have Vanguard Sword Brethren. I'm fine with them inventing new things to give 'em a proper Codex, but as it stands they end up losing more than they gain, which makes giving them a whole book harder.
My biggest hope is that people will not be able to us any chapters army and jump around to any faction they want using the same characters from all across the chapters as their own.
Like Carachadons, and unknown foundings being forced to use their own rules or successor rules.
But why?
But why what?
You want someone to be able to use the same chapter and somehow have Robute Gulliman, then the Lion, then Calgar all in the same army with the same paint scheme? And just say "Oh yeah its all the same chapter." I've seen it happen not against the rules currently just really unflavorful.
You want someone to be able to use the same chapter and somehow have Robute Gulliman, then the Lion, then Calgar all in the same army with the same paint scheme?
I want people to be free to paint their models whatever way they like and use whichever rules they like. Calgar and Guilliman are both Ultramarines and Lion doesn't exist, so I'm really not sure where this example is going.
And just say "Oh yeah its all the same chapter." I've seen it happen not against the rules currently just really unflavorful.
If you're meaning to talk about mixing special characters from different chapters in one detachment, then that absolutely is against the rules currently and will indubitably remain so.
So I’m a little confused because I’m blind, can Blood Angels use stuff like the new Shock Assault rule and Litanies from the new marine book, but still use all the unit entries from their own book?
Tiberius501 wrote: So I’m a little confused because I’m blind, can Blood Angels use stuff like the new Shock Assault rule and Litanies from the new marine book, but still use all the unit entries from their own book?
We don't know. They removed the line about "all first founding" chapters getting access to the book.
Let's hope the create your own character aspects and chapters also are fun and interesting.
Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)
Though i am interested if they will finally give us a first company vets for primaris.
The new Angel's of death rule is going to affect all adeptus astartes and heretic astartes. Regardless of book. Units, harder to say. I can see the ba da and sw getting the new primaris stuff, but rather some things stay vanilla only like the thunder fire cannon and storm talon. There should be a trade off for getting the various other codex units.
Asherian Command wrote: Let's hope the create your own character aspects and chapters also are fun and interesting.
Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)
Though i am interested if they will finally give us a first company vets for primaris.
not yet, we're getting vanguard marines. we'll likely get veterns the NEXT marine release after this
Asherian Command wrote: Let's hope the create your own character aspects and chapters also are fun and interesting.
Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)
Though i am interested if they will finally give us a first company vets for primaris.
not yet, we're getting vanguard marines. we'll likely get veterns the NEXT marine release after this
Asherian Command wrote: Let's hope the create your own character aspects and chapters also are fun and interesting.
Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)
Though i am interested if they will finally give us a first company vets for primaris.
not yet, we're getting vanguard marines. we'll likely get veterns the NEXT marine release after this
So another codex for 8th edition?
that depends how long 8th edition lasts, however GW's got a very firm trend dating back a few editions now of putting out campaign books that introduce new units and then releasing a updated codex that collects the material. That said, primaris is essentially a new space marines line, and I expect they'll keep putting them out until they complete the line, the obvious hole after the vanguard release will be a heavy armor gravis focused release likely aimed at elites.
Asherian Command wrote: Let's hope the create your own character aspects and chapters also are fun and interesting.
Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)
Though i am interested if they will finally give us a first company vets for primaris.
not yet, we're getting vanguard marines. we'll likely get veterns the NEXT marine release after this
So another codex for 8th edition?
that depends how long 8th edition lasts, however GW's got a very firm trend dating back a few editions now of putting out campaign books that introduce new units and then releasing a updated codex that collects the material. That said, primaris is essentially a new space marines line, and I expect they'll keep putting them out until they complete the line, the obvious hole after the vanguard release will be a heavy armor gravis focused release likely aimed at elites.
Still could use a bike and non-transport tank option (to replace the Predator) as well.
I have mixed feeling about the new units, mostly not interested in except perhaps the rhino replacement and I'd rather stick with Dreadnoughts instead of the AMP suit. Figures this would come out a couple months after I finally buy the SM codex.
Also, I'm assuming with these new codexes you're supposed to buy the base Space Marine codex + appropriate chapter upgrade? If so, I wonder if they'll go back to give the same treatment to the next round of BA, DA & SW - background, characters & unique units only?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Because Space Wolves are a non-Codex Chapter, and therefore should (and do) have a completely unique organisation.
Just like all the many Chapters that do the same.....
what other chapters deviate as widely as the space Wolves though? the sueal space Marine chapter has a scout -> devestator -> assault marine -> tac marine progression,
the space wolves have blood claw, grey hunter, long fang. with scouts being something those with the apptitude are moved into.
this differant progression is pretty important. we see black templars likewise have a bit of a differant approuch, but few chapters are as divergant. most tend to be like the blood angels, or dark angels, mostly codex compliant with some oddities.
Tiberius501 wrote: So I’m a little confused because I’m blind, can Blood Angels use stuff like the new Shock Assault rule and Litanies from the new marine book, but still use all the unit entries from their own book?
We don't know. They removed the line about "all first founding" chapters getting access to the book.
Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)
So you want the rules to say how people can paint their models?
Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)
So you want the rules to say how people can paint their models?
Tournaments already do that. Some GTs limit factions with established color schemes to their rules. With no official GW ruling, other tournaments don't. It's open to them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Because Space Wolves are a non-Codex Chapter, and therefore should (and do) have a completely unique organisation.
Just like all the many Chapters that do the same.....
what other chapters deviate as widely as the space Wolves though? the sueal space Marine chapter has a scout -> devestator -> assault marine -> tac marine progression,
the space wolves have blood claw, grey hunter, long fang. with scouts being something those with the apptitude are moved into.
this differant progression is pretty important. we see black templars likewise have a bit of a differant approuch, but few chapters are as divergant. most tend to be like the blood angels, or dark angels, mostly codex compliant with some oddities.
Pretty much any that have had any kind of lore written about them.
Take the Iron Hands - a FIRST FOUNDING Chapter with loads of interesting lore stuff, none of which is in the rules
or the Salamanders, another FIRST Founding
Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)
So you want the rules to say how people can paint their models?
Tournaments already do that. Some GTs limit factions with established color schemes to their rules. With no official GW ruling, other tournaments don't. It's open to them.
and GW will never make that ruling. limiting the creative aspect of the hobby is bad
Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)
So you want the rules to say how people can paint their models?
Tournaments already do that. Some GTs limit factions with established color schemes to their rules. With no official GW ruling, other tournaments don't. It's open to them.
Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)
So you want the rules to say how people can paint their models?
Tournaments already do that. Some GTs limit factions with established color schemes to their rules. With no official GW ruling, other tournaments don't. It's open to them.
House rules are house rules.
keep in mind an offical ruling from GW would limit creativity. for every case of "an donkey-cave is just running his Ultramarines as space wolves to take advantage of space wolves being better this edition" there are proably 3 guys running a army that is a "blood angels run as ultramarines with gulliman converted into an awesome Sanguinius"
Asherian Command wrote: Let's hope the create your own character aspects and chapters also are fun and interesting.
Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)
Though i am interested if they will finally give us a first company vets for primaris.
So you think it's ok to punish the player for painting his army in wrong color, because GW can't make a decent subfaction balance?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Because Space Wolves are a non-Codex Chapter, and therefore should (and do) have a completely unique organisation.
Just like all the many Chapters that do the same.....
what other chapters deviate as widely as the space Wolves though? the sueal space Marine chapter has a scout -> devestator -> assault marine -> tac marine progression,
the space wolves have blood claw, grey hunter, long fang. with scouts being something those with the apptitude are moved into.
this differant progression is pretty important. we see black templars likewise have a bit of a differant approuch, but few chapters are as divergant. most tend to be like the blood angels, or dark angels, mostly codex compliant with some oddities.
Pretty much any that have had any kind of lore written about them.
Take the Iron Hands - a FIRST FOUNDING Chapter with loads of interesting lore stuff, none of which is in the rules or the Salamanders, another FIRST Founding
or yeah pretty much ANY chapter
All chapters are unique, that's true. Now how does that fact leads some of you to want from GW that they cut stuff from DA/SW/BA and streamline them is what I don't understand ? Just let GW gives some content to all first founding chapter and to some non first founding chapter, like the emperor spear or the black templar ...
I posted a little before that in the DA codex, about 33% of the units datasheets are specific to the DA. If you think the DA, BA and SW are comparable to the BT or the IH in any way today, you're delusional. Going back on all that GW built around those three chapter is stupid, and a little less salt would help you understand it imo.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Because Space Wolves are a non-Codex Chapter, and therefore should (and do) have a completely unique organisation.
Just like all the many Chapters that do the same.....
what other chapters deviate as widely as the space Wolves though? the sueal space Marine chapter has a scout -> devestator -> assault marine -> tac marine progression,
the space wolves have blood claw, grey hunter, long fang. with scouts being something those with the apptitude are moved into.
this differant progression is pretty important. we see black templars likewise have a bit of a differant approuch, but few chapters are as divergant. most tend to be like the blood angels, or dark angels, mostly codex compliant with some oddities.
Pretty much any that have had any kind of lore written about them.
Take the Iron Hands - a FIRST FOUNDING Chapter with loads of interesting lore stuff, none of which is in the rules
or the Salamanders, another FIRST Founding
or yeah pretty much ANY chapter
Iron Hands had some unique elements I'll agree (terminator sergents) but salamnders last I checked where, outside of some company orginizational differances pretty much codex aren;t they?
BrianDavion wrote: Iron Hands had some unique elements I'll agree (terminator sergents) but salamnders last I checked where, outside of some company orginizational differances pretty much codex aren;t they?
Pretty much.
The Salamanders organize themselves in Great Companies rather than the typical codex companies, with 6 companies of 120+ warriors each in addition to a smaller scout "company" of roughly 60 men and their officers. Of the six companies, the first is a veteran company, the second through fourth are battle companies, and the fifth and sixth are reserve companies.
Other than that they are pretty much codex compliant outside of giving each battle brother training in the maintenance of their weapons rather than getting the techmarines to do it.
Asherian Command wrote: Let's hope the create your own character aspects and chapters also are fun and interesting.
Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)
Though i am interested if they will finally give us a first company vets for primaris.
So you think it's ok to punish the player for painting his army in wrong color, because GW can't make a decent subfaction balance?
Things certainly were better when there weren't these snowflake rules which just shoehorn armies into certain forms and funnily enough are totally against fluff. Jump packing blood angels as core of army and all bike white scars...sheesh that's such a destroying fluff. Bikes aren't white scar's core. Tacticals are. There's 60 of those per company with 20 bikes at most. 3 to 1 ratio.
Asherian Command wrote: Let's hope the create your own character aspects and chapters also are fun and interesting.
Plus I hope they get rid of the grey area of someone being able to choose the promigentor chapter rules from established canon chapters. (so people don't switch the rules every time a new rule comes out that is the most 'optimal'.)
Though i am interested if they will finally give us a first company vets for primaris.
So you think it's ok to punish the player for painting his army in wrong color, because GW can't make a decent subfaction balance?
Things certainly were better when there weren't these snowflake rules which just shoehorn armies into certain forms and funnily enough are totally against fluff. Jump packing blood angels as core of army and all bike white scars...sheesh that's such a destroying fluff. Bikes aren't white scar's core. Tacticals are. There's 60 of those per company with 20 bikes at most. 3 to 1 ratio.
So agree with you here. The game would be better should they just remove all those subfaction.
Want to play narrative army and don't care about effectiveness? Just take those fluffy units. Want to play competitive, take best units and paint them whatever color you want.
Right now it's - love iron hand? Oh, their subfaction suck, play them count as raven guard.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Because Space Wolves are a non-Codex Chapter, and therefore should (and do) have a completely unique organisation.
Just like all the many Chapters that do the same.....
what other chapters deviate as widely as the space Wolves though? the sueal space Marine chapter has a scout -> devestator -> assault marine -> tac marine progression,
the space wolves have blood claw, grey hunter, long fang. with scouts being something those with the apptitude are moved into.
this differant progression is pretty important. we see black templars likewise have a bit of a differant approuch, but few chapters are as divergant. most tend to be like the blood angels, or dark angels, mostly codex compliant with some oddities.
Pretty much any that have had any kind of lore written about them.
Take the Iron Hands - a FIRST FOUNDING Chapter with loads of interesting lore stuff, none of which is in the rules
or the Salamanders, another FIRST Founding
or yeah pretty much ANY chapter
All chapters are unique, that's true. Now how does that fact leads some of you to want from GW that they cut stuff from DA/SW/BA and streamline them is what I don't understand ? Just let GW gives some content to all first founding chapter and to some non first founding chapter, like the emperor spear or the black templar ...
I posted a little before that in the DA codex, about 33% of the units datasheets are specific to the DA. If you think the DA, BA and SW are comparable to the BT or the IH in any way today, you're delusional. Going back on all that GW built around those three chapter is stupid, and a little less salt would help you understand it imo.
Because the blind focuss on those three Chapters has IMO has not only massively skewed the reosources and sadly horribly flandersised them. Sticking Wolf, Dark or Blood in front of every second work is not lore building.
And how many of those units could not be represented by a generic unit or a couple of line options which also allow players to represent the other 997+ Chapters rather than three.
Name a unit that would not be present in another Chapter in a similar form and could be represented by the rules.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Because Space Wolves are a non-Codex Chapter, and therefore should (and do) have a completely unique organisation.
Just like all the many Chapters that do the same.....
what other chapters deviate as widely as the space Wolves though? the sueal space Marine chapter has a scout -> devestator -> assault marine -> tac marine progression,
the space wolves have blood claw, grey hunter, long fang. with scouts being something those with the apptitude are moved into.
this differant progression is pretty important. we see black templars likewise have a bit of a differant approuch, but few chapters are as divergant. most tend to be like the blood angels, or dark angels, mostly codex compliant with some oddities.
Pretty much any that have had any kind of lore written about them.
Take the Iron Hands - a FIRST FOUNDING Chapter with loads of interesting lore stuff, none of which is in the rules
or the Salamanders, another FIRST Founding
or yeah pretty much ANY chapter
All chapters are unique, that's true. Now how does that fact leads some of you to want from GW that they cut stuff from DA/SW/BA and streamline them is what I don't understand ? Just let GW gives some content to all first founding chapter and to some non first founding chapter, like the emperor spear or the black templar ...
I posted a little before that in the DA codex, about 33% of the units datasheets are specific to the DA. If you think the DA, BA and SW are comparable to the BT or the IH in any way today, you're delusional. Going back on all that GW built around those three chapter is stupid, and a little less salt would help you understand it imo.
Because the blind focuss on those three Chapters has IMO has not only massively skewed the reosources and sadly horribly flandersised them. Sticking Wolf, Dark or Blood in front of every second work is not lore building.
And how many of those units could not be represented by a generic unit or a couple of line options which also allow players to represent the other 997+ Chapters rather than three.
Name a unit that would not be present in another Chapter in a similar form and could be represented by the rules.
Blood Angels just stick “blood” in front of every word? I’ll give Sanguinary Guard and Sanguinary Priests, but it still isn’t as blatant. Sanguinary Guard are also pretty different than any other unit. Their weapons are bespoke. Librarian dreadnoughts are unique but would kind of make sense for other chapters (I have never really understood why they’re BA specific). I suppose you could proxy Death Company as an assault squad.
Peeps need to chill, nobody has said people shouldn't get white scars armies with lots of bikes, or blood angels with jump packs.
An understandable concern is a player who paints rainbow marines and uses them as the best subfaction for 3 months, then when newer, better, marine subfactions come out, suddenly they use those rules for 3 months etc.
Having a custom chapter with custom fluff = consistency, using 5 different codex with the same models to game the system isn't right.
Saying "You can just use Death Company models as an Assault Squad" entirely misses the point that the Death Company are not Assault Squads.
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Dudeface wrote: Peeps need to chill, nobody has said people shouldn't get white scars armies with lots of bikes, or blood angels with jump packs.
An understandable concern is a player who paints rainbow marines and uses them as the best subfaction for 3 months, then when newer, better, marine subfactions come out, suddenly they use those rules for 3 months etc.
Having a custom chapter with custom fluff = consistency, using 5 different codex with the same models to game the system isn't right.
You mean that thing people have been doing since forever? What people do with their army is none of your concern.
Mr Morden wrote: No but with Blood Angels - they have always been described as a Codex Compliant Chapter.....
None of the First Founding Legions outside the Ultramarines have ever been 100% codex compliant. They have always had some remnants of their pre-heresy traditions, if not simply outright ignoring the Codex. Even the Ultramarines stopped being fully codex compliant after the Tyranic Wars. The problem is that GW only ever gave attention to Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves. By all rights Iron Hands should have had their own codex a long time ago. For decades now it's been far more lore accurate to use Space Wolf rules to represent Iron Hands.
Even the Imperial Fists, who in their Dorn-inspired moping adopted the Codex pretty much to the letter, don't follow it completely (The Last Wall Protocol and all that jazz).
Dudeface wrote: Peeps need to chill, nobody has said people shouldn't get white scars armies with lots of bikes, or blood angels with jump packs.
An understandable concern is a player who paints rainbow marines and uses them as the best subfaction for 3 months, then when newer, better, marine subfactions come out, suddenly they use those rules for 3 months etc.
Having a custom chapter with custom fluff = consistency, using 5 different codex with the same models to game the system isn't right.
I’m baffled by this complaint. If I play a guy at a tournament and he’s got a wysiwyg blood angels army, what the hell do I care if he played them as dark angels three months ago? What difference does it make to me? So long as his sanguinary guard aren’t being represented by deathwing terminators or something, all is good.
This is just a complete non-issue, which is why no tournament has ever ruled out homebrew marines, or homebrew anything else.
Mr Morden wrote: No but with Blood Angels - they have always been described as a Codex Compliant Chapter.....
None of the First Founding Legions outside the Ultramarines have ever been 100% codex compliant. They have always had some remnants of their pre-heresy traditions, if not simply outright ignoring the Codex. Even the Ultramarines stopped being fully codex compliant after the Tyranic Wars. The problem is that GW only ever gave attention to Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves. By all rights Iron Hands should have had their own codex a long time ago. For decades now it's been far more lore accurate to use Space Wolf rules to represent Iron Hands.
Even the Imperial Fists, who in their Dorn-inspired moping adopted the Codex pretty much to the letter, don't follow it completely (The Last Wall Protocol and all that jazz).
Agreed - but they are usually described as broadly codex complaint - like the Blod Ravens in the latest White Dwarf?
hence my point that many many Chapters have units that are currently not represented...... Now hopefully the new Supplement codexes will have moe lore, interesting models and a few new units each. The other major problem was/is GW's insistance of all units having models and not conversions - excpet if you want a Grandmaster Baby carrier of course.
The very most that BA/DA/W need is a few pages in White Dwarf (or preferably) a free pdf like Chaos Nights had.
Then maybe we could have subfaction supplements for non Marines - who are already a subfaction.....
So if you are going to play a custom chapter that isn’t a heavily daddy influenced successor (only using base codex) you are only paying 25 pounds. Add a supplement means add 17.50 pounds.
To get the same rules you'll now need to spend £130. GW Clearly knows a good milking cow when they see one! Having to pay £42.50 to be able to play your Ultramarines army when everyone else only has to pay £25 is going to piss a lot of people off.
Roger. All in USD, tentatively based upon price brackets:
So Khan, Tigurius, Codex: $40
Supplement: $30
Dice: $35
Datacards: $15
Faction Datacards: $19.25(probably will end up being $20)
Upgrade Kit & Transfers: $25
Not too bad on the upgrade kit to be honest. The Ultramarines one was $15 and the others were $12.50. Depends on the size of the transfer sheet though.
Supplements are $5 more than I thought the high end would be, but the codex dropping to $40 isn't a surprise.
To get the same rules you'll now need to spend £130. GW Clearly knows a good milking cow when they see one! Having to pay £42.50 to be able to play your Ultramarines army when everyone else only has to pay £25 is going to piss a lot of people off.
They said you could still play those first Founding Chapters without supplement, right? That’s what the those chapter tactics were for. You just wouldn’t be using characters and the extra options in the supplement.
We’ve reached the most fascinating and predictable part of the Codex Space Marines discussion, where we argue whether the rules or lore support multiple books for the different “big” Chapters, the Ultramarines, the Dark Angels, the Space Wolves, and the Blood Angels.
Which is only fitting as 2019 marks the 25th anniversary of the first Codex released for Warhammer 40,000, Space Wolves.
But it is also silly, as the company makes these decisions on the basis of a consistent business case. Not whether it makes “sense” to shove 4 of their best sellers into a single release window for reasons of “fairness” or “faction balance.”
Space Marines sell more. The other bigs are reliable sellers on their own. Furthermore, because of the design similarities, other Chapters also require less work per release than, say, the Orks or Necrons.
Of course, Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, Tau, Guard...those armies need some new models. But McDonalds isn’t getting rid of Big Macs so they can try and sell more Filet-O-Fish. Dance with who brung ya.
dienekes96 wrote: We’ve reached the most fascinating and predictable part of the Codex Space Marines discussion, where we argue whether the rules or lore support multiple books for the different “big” Chapters, the Ultramarines, the Dark Angels, the Space Wolves, and the Blood Angels.
Which is only fitting as 2019 marks the 25th anniversary of the first Codex released for Warhammer 40,000, Space Wolves.
But it is also silly, as the company makes these decisions on the basis of a consistent business case. Not whether it makes “sense” to shove 4 of their best sellers into a single release window for reasons of “fairness” or “faction balance.”
Space Marines sell more. The other bigs are reliable sellers on their own. Furthermore, because of the design similarities, other Chapters also require less work per release than, say, the Orks or Necrons.
Of course, Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Eldar, Tau, Guard...those armies need some new models. But McDonalds isn’t getting rid of Big Macs so they can try and sell more Filet-O-Fish. Dance with who brung ya.
Another thing, whether a chapter should deserve a book or supplement depends on how GW wants to flesh out books. All of these supplements have their own psychic discipline and stratagems.
BaconCatBug wrote:Saying "You can just use Death Company models as an Assault Squad" entirely misses the point that the Death Company are not Assault Squads.
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Dudeface wrote: Peeps need to chill, nobody has said people shouldn't get white scars armies with lots of bikes, or blood angels with jump packs.
An understandable concern is a player who paints rainbow marines and uses them as the best subfaction for 3 months, then when newer, better, marine subfactions come out, suddenly they use those rules for 3 months etc.
Having a custom chapter with custom fluff = consistency, using 5 different codex with the same models to game the system isn't right.
You mean that thing people have been doing since forever? What people do with their army is none of your concern.
It is if I'm sat opposite them, my options are - have a civil chat and game and agree what rules are in use, or decide they're just trying to spam ultra efficient lists and screw any sense of continuity or fluff then not play them. It's a personal choice and I would always advocate the first option.
Mandragola wrote:
Dudeface wrote: Peeps need to chill, nobody has said people shouldn't get white scars armies with lots of bikes, or blood angels with jump packs.
An understandable concern is a player who paints rainbow marines and uses them as the best subfaction for 3 months, then when newer, better, marine subfactions come out, suddenly they use those rules for 3 months etc.
Having a custom chapter with custom fluff = consistency, using 5 different codex with the same models to game the system isn't right.
I’m baffled by this complaint. If I play a guy at a tournament and he’s got a wysiwyg blood angels army, what the hell do I care if he played them as dark angels three months ago? What difference does it make to me? So long as his sanguinary guard aren’t being represented by deathwing terminators or something, all is good.
This is just a complete non-issue, which is why no tournament has ever ruled out homebrew marines, or homebrew anything else.
It's not tourney related, which is why you're baffled by it. I'm not talking about a big organised event, just when a guy in your local groups has the same army representing 4-5 sets of rules just to optimise 1 unit. It's hard to track against game to game and can be seen as overly gaming the system, stripping some of the story out of the games.
It's not tourney related, which is why you're baffled by it. I'm not talking about a big organised event, just when a guy in your local groups has the same army representing 4-5 sets of rules just to optimise 1 unit. It's hard to track against game to game and can be seen as overly gaming the system, stripping some of the story out of the games.
On what planet are you letting someone take four or five chapter tactics?
What GW has been doing with SW/DA/BA and now with those supplement codexes is the result of a strategy that touch all factions (cult with the tyranids, ynnari with eldari, thousand sons and death guard for CSM, knights, custodes for the imperium). I think the idea that GW overall focus too much on space marine and should use more ressources to develop xenos factions is a valid critic, and has been a valid critic for a long time (even if SM are always a commercial success) but the idea that the core of the problem is that GW has been giving too much to SW/DA/BA and not to other chapter just comes off as a salty comment coming from people that are discontent with the fact that their own chapter has been giving less toys that those three.
It's not tourney related, which is why you're baffled by it. I'm not talking about a big organised event, just when a guy in your local groups has the same army representing 4-5 sets of rules just to optimise 1 unit. It's hard to track against game to game and can be seen as overly gaming the system, stripping some of the story out of the games.
On what planet are you letting someone take four or five chapter tactics?
Jeez, not all at once, say over the course of 10 games.
Not a 40% price increase over most existing (and already overpriced) clampack boyos.
They're not selling a ton of Khan at any price. White Scars players are pretty thin on the ground - maybe getting their own Codex will change that, but most folks take a hard pass at all white armies. This is one case where I think GW will take a long while to recoup mold costs.
Tiggy, OTOH, should sell well enough. Ultrasmurfs are common as many Xenos races.
Jeez, not all at once, say over the course of 10 games.
So a player playing difference forces, using different playstyles, over different games, utilizing different chapter tactics to do so is now problematic?
This is literally the situation that the ruleset is designed to encourage, and you're gaking on it. Well done.
Jeez, not all at once, say over the course of 10 games.
So a player playing difference forces, using different playstyles, over different games, utilizing different chapter tactics to do so is now problematic?
This is literally the situation that the ruleset is designed to encourage, and you're gaking on it. Well done.
Day 1, my sons of Uranus live fighting in close confines and duel orks, they get ccw on tac marines for their traits since your army is weak against melee.
Day 2, my sons of Uranus had close combat and have specialist ranged training with extra ap on their bolters because you're weak to shooting.
Have we gotten any confirmation that any Successor Chapter will get its own supplement (looking a BT & CF). I thought I read that each supplement will contain 1 First founding chapter AND a few of their successors.
So the Imperial Fist supplement is very likely going to have the rules for BTs & CFs, which I like and hope happens.
It would also be good if this new Codex format plays around with keywords a bit, counting Successor chapters as their 1st founding for special rules.
For example, taking Crimson fists "unlocks" not only their successor trait, but also any Imperial Fists WL traits, relics, stratagems, etc.
This could also mean that Imperial Fists characters would be able to benefit CF/BT units, which would make total sense.
Absolutely. Especially since you're trying to pass off different equipment as different chapter tactics, then gak on the latter but making a royal mess of the whole thing.
The fewer barriers to entry you can put between players and a game, the better. And demanding no holds barred "YOU MUST PAINT AND MODEL YOUR MINIS TO EXACTING 41st MILLENIUM REALISM STANDARDS" is a massive barrier to entry.
Galef wrote: Have we gotten any confirmation that any Successor Chapter will get its own supplement (looking a BT & CF). I thought I read that each supplement will contain 1 First founding chapter AND a few of their successors.
Right now the only thing we have is this:
Codex: Space Marines enables you to field armies belonging to any Chapter (or even one of your own creation). However, if you seek to take your dedication to the First Founding Chapters (and their successors) to the next level, that’s where the codex supplements come in…
So the Imperial Fist supplement is very likely going to have the rules for BTs & CFs, which I like and hope happens.
It would also be good if this new Codex format plays around with keywords a bit, counting Successor chapters as their 1st founding for special rules.
For example, taking Crimson fists "unlocks" not only their successor trait, but also any Imperial Fists WL traits, relics, stratagems, etc.
This could also mean that Imperial Fists characters would be able to benefit CF/BT units, which would make total sense.
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I wouldn't expect that to happen frankly. We know they've made a big deal about old characters "crossing the Rubicon Primaris", so I'd expect at least one Primaris character for each Successor book and then some 'generic but unique' character for each faction that uses a generic kit.
Absolutely. Especially since you're trying to pass off different equipment as different chapter tactics, then gak on the latter but making a royal mess of the whole thing.
The fewer barriers to entry you can put between players and a game, the better. And demanding no holds barred "YOU MUST PAINT AND MODEL YOUR MINIS TO EXACTING 41st MILLENIUM REALISM STANDARDS" is a massive barrier to entry.
Chainswords on tactical was a chapter tactic back in an older edition, it's not plucked totally out of thin air. But the issue there isn't how they're painted, it's how someone can list tailor on the fly and change their stuff based on whatever will suit their game on the day. Which is crap when you want any form of narrative for an army.
Chainswords on tactical was a chapter tactic back in an older edition, it's not plucked totally out of thin air. But the issue there isn't how they're painted, it's how someone can list tailor on the fly and change their stuff based on whatever will suit their game on the day. Which is crap when you want any form of narrative for an army.
Here's the fatal flaw in your logic:
A cohesive narrative isnt necessary for a game to happen. Or an army to happen.
If you want one, work it out with your match partner. Its not incumbent upon the ruleset to enforce.
Chainswords on tactical was a chapter tactic back in an older edition, it's not plucked totally out of thin air. But the issue there isn't how they're painted, it's how someone can list tailor on the fly and change their stuff based on whatever will suit their game on the day. Which is crap when you want any form of narrative for an army.
Here's the fatal flaw in your logic:
A cohesive narrative isnt necessary for a game to happen. Or an army to happen.
If you want one, work it out with your match partner. Its not incumbent upon the ruleset to enforce.
Which is exactly what I said about 6 posts back, 2 options, talk to them and agree what's reasonable for your games, or opt not to play them if you dont like their mannerisms, but always advocate option 1.
It's certainly dubious to change your Chapter Tactics once you know what force your opponent has brought, I would say, but changing beforehand when you choose your list seems fine to me, when some of them are so much better than others, but all cost the same points.
Stormonu wrote: I’m just happy Salamanders are getting a codex of their own.
Now, I’m just waiting for my Beil-Tan, Behemoth and Bork’an Codexes...
Reserving judgement until we see how in-depth these new codices are, but if they're substantial I would adore everyone getting the same treatment.
Relics, Psyker lores, Warlord Traits, and Stratagems...yeah, they seem kinda substantial.
I don't think some factions would benefit from them without being exactly what some claim they are("needless bloat" would, IMO, be a Bork'an or Vior'la Sept book when they're not really known for anything substantially different) but would be perfect for others(Craftworlds are known for specializing and Farsight Enclaves would be a 100% fit here).
With Space Wolves being the first faction I ever started with I have a soft spot for them. So I am really hoping to see Ragnar get the primaris treatment.
Chainswords on tactical was a chapter tactic back in an older edition, it's not plucked totally out of thin air. But the issue there isn't how they're painted, it's how someone can list tailor on the fly and change their stuff based on whatever will suit their game on the day. Which is crap when you want any form of narrative for an army.
Is this an issue for only Space Marines for you, or all armies?
Is my custom Hive Fleet an issue? I use several different Hive Fleet traits over the course of several games, fluffing them as a remnant fleet that has absorbed several different other splinter fleets or individual ships to accumulate a vast array of tactical knowledge. Basically they're versatile and I don't have to conform to a single fleet because I like playing different builds and strategeys in different situations.
List tailoring is a thing in pick up or pre-planned games when you know who you're playing. But usually both of you know what your playing and can tailor your lists. That or you talk to your opponent and come up with a narrative for the fight and work out who should be what. Which is something you've pointed out but is a fair meeting place for people.
Stormonu wrote: I’m just happy Salamanders are getting a codex of their own.
Now, I’m just waiting for my Beil-Tan, Behemoth and Bork’an Codexes...
Reserving judgement until we see how in-depth these new codices are, but if they're substantial I would adore everyone getting the same treatment.
Relics, Psyker lores, Warlord Traits, and Stratagems...yeah, they seem kinda substantial.
I don't think some factions would benefit from them without being exactly what some claim they are("needless bloat" would, IMO, be a Bork'an or Vior'la Sept book when they're not really known for anything substantially different) but would be perfect for others(Craftworlds are known for specializing and Farsight Enclaves would be a 100% fit here).
Another way they might go about it for some factions is to have supplements that aren't tied to sub-factions but rather to organizations/builds that are present in the lore.
For instance IG might get supplements for Light Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, Armored Companies, etc. Kind of like the a more expanded version of the Vigilus detachments. They could still have different Regimental Doctrines, so that we could have the Tallarn take on an Armored Company and the Cadian take on an Armored Company, but the inclusion of a large variety of stratagems and relics could be useful just like it was for Knights.
I think that it would also work for Orks (Dread Mob, Kult of Speed, Blitz Brigade, etc.) and Tau (different kinds of Cadres). Maybe Tyranids too. I'm not sure about other factions as I'm not as familiar with them.
This model could lead to a lot of rules bloat though, as with the way they're doing SM a player might only ever need a codex and supplement where an IG player wanting to run Infantry, Armored and Artillery detachments might need their codex and three supplements. On the other hand plenty of people are running IG + Knight + Vigilus and maybe Assassins, which is a comparable number of books.
(Hopefully I'm making some sort of sense, it's early here and the words aren't coming easily. )
Stormonu wrote: I’m just happy Salamanders are getting a codex of their own.
Now, I’m just waiting for my Beil-Tan, Behemoth and Bork’an Codexes...
Reserving judgement until we see how in-depth these new codices are, but if they're substantial I would adore everyone getting the same treatment.
Relics, Psyker lores, Warlord Traits, and Stratagems...yeah, they seem kinda substantial.
I don't think some factions would benefit from them without being exactly what some claim they are("needless bloat" would, IMO, be a Bork'an or Vior'la Sept book when they're not really known for anything substantially different) but would be perfect for others(Craftworlds are known for specializing and Farsight Enclaves would be a 100% fit here).
Another way they might go about it for some factions is to have supplements that aren't tied to sub-factions but rather to organizations/builds that are present in the lore.
For instance IG might get supplements for Light Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, Armored Companies, etc. Kind of like the a more expanded version of the Vigilus detachments. They could still have different Regimental Doctrines, so that we could have the Tallarn take on an Armored Company and the Cadian take on an Armored Company, but the inclusion of a large variety of stratagems and relics could be useful just like it was for Knights.
I think that it would also work for Orks (Dread Mob, Kult of Speed, Blitz Brigade, etc.) and Tau (different kinds of Cadres). Maybe Tyranids too. I'm not sure about other factions as I'm not as familiar with them.
This model could lead to a lot of rules bloat though, as with the way they're doing SM a player might only ever need a codex and supplement where an IG player wanting to run Infantry, Armored and Artillery detachments might need their codex and three supplements. On the other hand plenty of people are running IG + Knight + Vigilus and maybe Assassins, which is a comparable number of books.
(Hopefully I'm making some sort of sense, it's early here and the words aren't coming easily. )
Riiiiight... I don't think it'll happen because everyone else isn't Space Marines.
Chainswords on tactical was a chapter tactic back in an older edition, it's not plucked totally out of thin air. But the issue there isn't how they're painted, it's how someone can list tailor on the fly and change their stuff based on whatever will suit their game on the day. Which is crap when you want any form of narrative for an army.
Is this an issue for only Space Marines for you, or all armies?
Is my custom Hive Fleet an issue? I use several different Hive Fleet traits over the course of several games, fluffing them as a remnant fleet that has absorbed several different other splinter fleets or individual ships to accumulate a vast array of tactical knowledge. Basically they're versatile and I don't have to conform to a single fleet because I like playing different builds and strategeys in different situations.
List tailoring is a thing in pick up or pre-planned games when you know who you're playing. But usually both of you know what your playing and can tailor your lists. That or you talk to your opponent and come up with a narrative for the fight and work out who should be what. Which is something you've pointed out but is a fair meeting place for people.
For me personally not an issue, you're able to explain that you're doing it for a reason that's not just "it's the best one" with a decent fluff reason. You're engaging a narrative rather than simply power gaming which was the crux of my issue.
Either way I think it's sufficiently covered in here and everyone agrees it's a social contract and speaking to your opponent is key. Different people want different stuff!
Chainswords on tactical was a chapter tactic back in an older edition, it's not plucked totally out of thin air. But the issue there isn't how they're painted, it's how someone can list tailor on the fly and change their stuff based on whatever will suit their game on the day. Which is crap when you want any form of narrative for an army.
Is this an issue for only Space Marines for you, or all armies?
Is my custom Hive Fleet an issue? I use several different Hive Fleet traits over the course of several games, fluffing them as a remnant fleet that has absorbed several different other splinter fleets or individual ships to accumulate a vast array of tactical knowledge. Basically they're versatile and I don't have to conform to a single fleet because I like playing different builds and strategeys in different situations.
List tailoring is a thing in pick up or pre-planned games when you know who you're playing. But usually both of you know what your playing and can tailor your lists. That or you talk to your opponent and come up with a narrative for the fight and work out who should be what. Which is something you've pointed out but is a fair meeting place for people.
For me personally not an issue, you're able to explain that you're doing it for a reason that's not just "it's the best one" with a decent fluff reason. You're engaging a narrative rather than simply power gaming which was the crux of my issue.
Either way I think it's sufficiently covered in here and everyone agrees it's a social contract and speaking to your opponent is key. Different people want different stuff!
Why are you boring us with this discussion ? If you want to play fluff, then find people that play fluff and makes guidelines with them beforehand to prevent "power gaming" or whatever you dislike. As for others, they can do whatever they want and if they desire to paint a rainbow space marine force (even if that's usually ugly as hell) and change their chapter tactic from one game to another then so be it.
Chainswords on tactical was a chapter tactic back in an older edition, it's not plucked totally out of thin air. But the issue there isn't how they're painted, it's how someone can list tailor on the fly and change their stuff based on whatever will suit their game on the day. Which is crap when you want any form of narrative for an army.
Is this an issue for only Space Marines for you, or all armies?
Is my custom Hive Fleet an issue? I use several different Hive Fleet traits over the course of several games, fluffing them as a remnant fleet that has absorbed several different other splinter fleets or individual ships to accumulate a vast array of tactical knowledge. Basically they're versatile and I don't have to conform to a single fleet because I like playing different builds and strategeys in different situations.
List tailoring is a thing in pick up or pre-planned games when you know who you're playing. But usually both of you know what your playing and can tailor your lists. That or you talk to your opponent and come up with a narrative for the fight and work out who should be what. Which is something you've pointed out but is a fair meeting place for people.
For me personally not an issue, you're able to explain that you're doing it for a reason that's not just "it's the best one" with a decent fluff reason. You're engaging a narrative rather than simply power gaming which was the crux of my issue.
Either way I think it's sufficiently covered in here and everyone agrees it's a social contract and speaking to your opponent is key. Different people want different stuff!
Why are you boring us with this discussion ? If you want to play fluff, then find people that play fluff and makes guidelines with them beforehand to prevent "power gaming" or whatever you dislike. As for others, they can do whatever they want and if they desire to paint a rainbow space marine force (even if that's usually ugly as hell) and change their chapter tactic from one game to another then so be it.
Because I keep drawing a line under it, agreeing it's down to mutual decision with others, then people keep responding to it with more opinions.
I'm done on the topic, but if it's boring you don't respond.
Chainswords on tactical was a chapter tactic back in an older edition, it's not plucked totally out of thin air. But the issue there isn't how they're painted, it's how someone can list tailor on the fly and change their stuff based on whatever will suit their game on the day. Which is crap when you want any form of narrative for an army.
Is this an issue for only Space Marines for you, or all armies?
Is my custom Hive Fleet an issue? I use several different Hive Fleet traits over the course of several games, fluffing them as a remnant fleet that has absorbed several different other splinter fleets or individual ships to accumulate a vast array of tactical knowledge. Basically they're versatile and I don't have to conform to a single fleet because I like playing different builds and strategeys in different situations.
List tailoring is a thing in pick up or pre-planned games when you know who you're playing. But usually both of you know what your playing and can tailor your lists. That or you talk to your opponent and come up with a narrative for the fight and work out who should be what. Which is something you've pointed out but is a fair meeting place for people.
The difference is you are staying inside one codex. Some space marine players will jump between various vanilla marines, dark angels, blood angels, and wolves under the guise of 'it's a custom chapter' which is just kinda crummy.
Stormonu wrote: I’m just happy Salamanders are getting a codex of their own.
Now, I’m just waiting for my Beil-Tan, Behemoth and Bork’an Codexes...
Reserving judgement until we see how in-depth these new codices are, but if they're substantial I would adore everyone getting the same treatment.
Relics, Psyker lores, Warlord Traits, and Stratagems...yeah, they seem kinda substantial.
I don't think some factions would benefit from them without being exactly what some claim they are("needless bloat" would, IMO, be a Bork'an or Vior'la Sept book when they're not really known for anything substantially different) but would be perfect for others(Craftworlds are known for specializing and Farsight Enclaves would be a 100% fit here).
Another way they might go about it for some factions is to have supplements that aren't tied to sub-factions but rather to organizations/builds that are present in the lore.
For instance IG might get supplements for Light Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, Armored Companies, etc. Kind of like the a more expanded version of the Vigilus detachments. They could still have different Regimental Doctrines, so that we could have the Tallarn take on an Armored Company and the Cadian take on an Armored Company, but the inclusion of a large variety of stratagems and relics could be useful just like it was for Knights.
I think that it would also work for Orks (Dread Mob, Kult of Speed, Blitz Brigade, etc.) and Tau (different kinds of Cadres). Maybe Tyranids too. I'm not sure about other factions as I'm not as familiar with them.
This model could lead to a lot of rules bloat though, as with the way they're doing SM a player might only ever need a codex and supplement where an IG player wanting to run Infantry, Armored and Artillery detachments might need their codex and three supplements. On the other hand plenty of people are running IG + Knight + Vigilus and maybe Assassins, which is a comparable number of books.
(Hopefully I'm making some sort of sense, it's early here and the words aren't coming easily. )
Really need a Militarum Tempestus supplement. They operate completely different than guard in most every way.
buddha wrote: Chapter tactics are good and no one seems better than the others. Glad my Iron Hands get a good boost there.
Mmm. My first reaction is fists and hands are a fair bit better than others, depending on the type of army being played. (Red fists are msu to an absurd degree, irons are vehicle heavy, yellows are fairly general if you cherrypick units with bolt weapons)
Sallies are a little more solid
Ultras and ravens are...OK
templars and scars are good for charge armies (scars also like bikes but notably the CT and example don't agree about intercessors and assault shooting), but offer very little otherwise.
The big surprise is stalker bolt rifles, CT applying to all the things and oldmarines in some of the pictures!
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warboss wrote: Are any of those different from the equivalent chapter tactics in the original 8th edition codex? I haven't followed them too closely.
Almost all of them got an additional ability. Ultras are pretty close, raven got changed, an additional bonus but more restrictive to the original modifier.
warboss wrote: Are any of those different from the equivalent chapter tactics in the original 8th edition codex? I haven't followed them too closely.
Ultramarines is unchanged. The rest have been extensively modified.
Yes and no. The wording of Ultramarines is unchanged. But ... the Guilliman car park can now hit reverse out of cc and still shoot. For what it's worth.
Ooh iron hands over watch on 5+ and vehicle wounds count as double on the degrading charts is pretty big. Like really big actually. You take Repulsor variants for fly keyword and resistance to charge and it’s gonna be a bad day trying to melee their vehicles.
AND with the stalker bolter change, we now see GW is not afraid to modify profiles or data sheets with this update. This could in fact be the “sweeping changes” marines need.
Would be nice. I do like how this entire time they kept all the non-codex/CSM armies at the same artificially low power bar, and now they're releasing just the codex armies with a total redesign, which arbitrarily makes them way better.
Until, of course, we SLOG through another 6 fething months of nothing but marine codex after marine codex to get them all up to date.
so instead of fixing the problem when it was evident...oh...four months after the beginning of the edition? They've decided to do it in the worst possible way, because it sells the most possible books.
Malkyr wrote: This is a surprisingly huge shot in the arm for Marines. Kinda sad that Chaos came before this now
Why? Chaos is easily the No. 1 army at the moment. No other army has won anywhere near as many big tournaments as Chaos has in the past couple of months. With the exception of the usual harebrained FW pay-to-win, Chaos is pretty much the 2019 version of the 2018 Castellan and the 2017 Ynnari.
You know, I am just going to point at people who pretended Blood Raven chapter tactic was any good and laugh. It was bad compared to old chapters, compared to new ones, it's unanimously 1000% pure, unfiltered garbage. Never even mind buffs, the fact they now apply to everything while BR is useless on anything but T4 infantry unless someone brings a titan in makes it 'below the bottom' tier tactic. Ok, maybe new psychic powers will-- buahahaha, nope, not even that will help, seeing vast majority of new psychic powers are locked to supplements so no cigar there either.
It's especially shocking considering the fact that BR writers had to know what is coming less than two weeks later, and they still had the gall to print that gak (which has to have record on fastest time to be completely obsolete after publishing in the whole SM history) and demand good money for it. Balancing it for new codex was minimum acceptable level, and they failed to even do it for old one
Yes, Bolter Discipline, ATSKNF and Angels of Death will all be included in the new codex. I think they said it on one of the articles.
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Irbis wrote: You know, I am just going to point at people who pretended Blood Raven chapter tactic was any good and laugh. It was bad compared to old chapters, compared to new ones, it's unanimously 1000% pure, unfiltered garbage. Never even mind buffs, the fact they now apply to everything while BR is useless on anything but T4 infantry unless someone brings a titan in makes it 'below the bottom' tier tactic. Ok, maybe new psychic powers will-- buahahaha, nope, not even that will help, seeing vast majority of new psychic powers are locked to supplements so no cigar there either.
It's especially shocking considering the fact that BR writers had to know what is coming less than two weeks later, and they still had the gall to print that gak (which has to have record on fastest time to be completely obsolete after publishing in the whole SM history) and demand good money for it. Balancing it for new codex was minimum acceptable level, and they failed to even do it for old one
godardc wrote: It's was so fething time that the vehicles got CA ! Gonna keep to the Ultramarines then
Hopefully they will do the same for Genestealer Cults and Sisters as well.
I donlt think anyone is going to object to CT's now working for vehicles....
It was dumb as feck to begin with. They HAVE to update all codices not having their chapter applied to Vehicles (GSC are even worse in this aspect since they have half the codex not benefitting from the Creeds i.e. Vehicles, Brood Brother Units and Genestealer KEYWORDS)
These are really good to see. We're getting some of the small firepower and/or defense boosts that were needed for SM. And lets hope they're fixing the other intercessor assault bolter too.
I'm going to assume that Chaos will get a round of Legion Trait updates as well. If they get those, then we can expect to see Chaos Marines actually used, not just HQs+Daemons. Alpha Legion and IW especially being mirrors of Ravenguard and Fists.
Irbis wrote: You know, I am just going to point at people who pretended Blood Raven chapter tactic was any good and laugh. It was bad compared to old chapters, compared to new ones, it's unanimously 1000% pure, unfiltered garbage. Never even mind buffs, the fact they now apply to everything while BR is useless on anything but T4 infantry unless someone brings a titan in makes it 'below the bottom' tier tactic. Ok, maybe new psychic powers will-- buahahaha, nope, not even that will help, seeing vast majority of new psychic powers are locked to supplements so no cigar there either.
It's especially shocking considering the fact that BR writers had to know what is coming less than two weeks later, and they still had the gall to print that gak (which has to have record on fastest time to be completely obsolete after publishing in the whole SM history) and demand good money for it. Balancing it for new codex was minimum acceptable level, and they failed to even do it for old one
I am really liking the Crimson Fists tactics. Best thing is that it doesn't really do anything to my army composition (as of yet). I ran tons of bolt weapons and MSU.
I’m mostly interested in what this new Codex + Supplement system might do for Guard. If they do a similar system for the Guard regiments with new plastics for them.... god help me. Only reason I didn’t buy a bunch of the Made to Order Vostroyans is because I hate working with metal models. Love the weight behind them, but nothing else.
Also I don’t understand why Flavor of the Month Marine players expected a White Dwarf index chapter to be the top sauce of Marine factions. It was a $10 magazine that they put in it just to throw a bone to fans of the chapter, it was never intended to be a top tier chapter tactic for flavor of the month players to bandwagon onto. If they release a (presumably) expensive Blood Raven supplement, and it still has gak rules, then your complaints will be validated.
godardc wrote: It's was so fething time that the vehicles got CA ! Gonna keep to the Ultramarines then
Hopefully they will do the same for Genestealer Cults and Sisters as well.
I donlt think anyone is going to object to CT's now working for vehicles....
It was dumb as feck to begin with. They HAVE to update all codices not having their chapter applied to Vehicles (GSC are even worse in this aspect since they have half the codex not benefitting from the Creeds i.e. Vehicles, Brood Brother Units and Genestealer KEYWORDS)
It's actually over 2/3rds of the entries in the codex.
godardc wrote: It's was so fething time that the vehicles got CA ! Gonna keep to the Ultramarines then
Hopefully they will do the same for Genestealer Cults and Sisters as well.
I donlt think anyone is going to object to CT's now working for vehicles....
It was dumb as feck to begin with. They HAVE to update all codices not having their chapter applied to Vehicles (GSC are even worse in this aspect since they have half the codex not benefitting from the Creeds i.e. Vehicles, Brood Brother Units and Genestealer KEYWORDS)
It's actually over 2/3rds of the entries in the codex.
You know, in case anyone's counting
Amazing how the Cult codex was handled really well (tons of excellent rules and feeling like an army that can be truly unique, all on top of neat Cult traits) and then in some ways handled terribly.
BrianDavion wrote: Iron Hands had some unique elements I'll agree (terminator sergents) but salamnders last I checked where, outside of some company orginizational differances pretty much codex aren;t they?
Pretty much.
The Salamanders organize themselves in Great Companies rather than the typical codex companies, with 6 companies of 120+ warriors each in addition to a smaller scout "company" of roughly 60 men and their officers. Of the six companies, the first is a veteran company, the second through fourth are battle companies, and the fifth and sixth are reserve companies.
Other than that they are pretty much codex compliant outside of giving each battle brother training in the maintenance of their weapons rather than getting the techmarines to do it.
Stormonu wrote:I’m just happy Salamanders are getting a codex of their own.
Now, I’m just waiting for my Beil-Tan, Behemoth and Bork’an Codexes...
Salamanders are codex indifferent, so it'll be nice to see what cool legion stuff carries over from 30k. I hope all the first founding chapters get cool scheiss.
I gotta say, I was expecting simply a CSM style update to this... so I am very excited.
course the part of me that does my chaos army is a bit annoyed they didn't do this with chaos. I'm hoping they'll massivly FAQCSMs space wolves, blood angels and dark angels. make the snowflake chapters bonus apply to everything and give CSMs a re-work. as it is, if an iron warriors player asked to use the Imp fists CT I'd be happy to let em
Crazyterran wrote: Where are you seeing the new upgrade frames? I'm seeing decals. Unless there is ahead im not seeing?
They're raised Iron Hands icons on the left pad rather than the other.
They've done an awesome job of not drawing attention to them in that pic!
I'm wondering how long they've been done for. Because the Raven Guard one doesn't have them on the Inceptors and the Salamanders, Crimson Fists, Black Templars, and White Scars don't really feature Primaris in them and have models turned away from the camera.
BrianDavion wrote: course the part of me that does my chaos army is a bit annoyed they didn't do this with chaos.
Honestly, I'd say give it a year. Whenever the remaining multi-part kits get released I would be less than surprised to see a new chaos codex more along these lines.
the_scotsman wrote: Would be nice. I do like how this entire time they kept all the non-codex/CSM armies at the same artificially low power bar, and now they're releasing just the codex armies with a total redesign, which arbitrarily makes them way better.
Until, of course, we SLOG through another 6 fething months of nothing but marine codex after marine codex to get them all up to date.
What now?
One, from yesterday's article, we're told point blank that they get access to the new datasheets.
Two, from today's article, we're told point blank that the variant marine codexes are getting a free update:
** If you’re a fan of the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Deathwatch, don’t worry – you can look forward to official rules updates coming soon via free PDF download. And remember, you Heretic Astartes players out there will also be gaining Shock Assault for your units in a similar update!
the_scotsman wrote: Would be nice. I do like how this entire time they kept all the non-codex/CSM armies at the same artificially low power bar, and now they're releasing just the codex armies with a total redesign, which arbitrarily makes them way better.
Until, of course, we SLOG through another 6 fething months of nothing but marine codex after marine codex to get them all up to date.
What now?
One, from yesterday's article, we're told point blank that they get access to the new datasheets. Two, from today's article, we're told point blank that the variant marine codexes are getting a free update:
** If you’re a fan of the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Deathwatch, don’t worry – you can look forward to official rules updates coming soon via free PDF download. And remember, you Heretic Astartes players out there will also be gaining Shock Assault for your units in a similar update!
Your complaints are invalid.
But that implies that the Chaos Marines are stuck with their mostly inferior Legion Tactics now until there is a CSM v3.0 book. Unless its yet another mistake from the webcrew, who only mention the update being for Shock Assault, and there is a Legion Tactics update coming.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: But that implies that the Chaos Marines are stuck with their mostly inferior Legion Tactics now until there is a CSM v3.0 book. Unless its yet another mistake from the webcrew, who only mention the update being for Shock Assault, and there is a Legion Tactics update coming.
Maybe they'll update CSM 2.0 with a PDF and give each of the Legions better traits through supplement books?
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: But that implies that the Chaos Marines are stuck with their mostly inferior Legion Tactics now until there is a CSM v3.0 book. Unless its yet another mistake from the webcrew, who only mention the update being for Shock Assault, and there is a Legion Tactics update coming.
Maybe they'll update CSM 2.0 with a PDF and give each of the Legions better traits through supplement books?
once they finish codex supplements for the first founding loyalists, I can see them doing it for the various chaos legions.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: But that implies that the Chaos Marines are stuck with their mostly inferior Legion Tactics now until there is a CSM v3.0 book. Unless its yet another mistake from the webcrew, who only mention the update being for Shock Assault, and there is a Legion Tactics update coming.
Maybe they'll update CSM 2.0 with a PDF and give each of the Legions better traits through supplement books?
Man I hope so, just so that CSM 2.0 can be updated for like the 5th time to show they really don't plan this all out and books dont "go to the printers a year in advance". This was obviously planned with Shadowspear yet CSM simply didn't get any of the new rules.
the_scotsman wrote: Would be nice. I do like how this entire time they kept all the non-codex/CSM armies at the same artificially low power bar, and now they're releasing just the codex armies with a total redesign, which arbitrarily makes them way better.
Until, of course, we SLOG through another 6 fething months of nothing but marine codex after marine codex to get them all up to date.
What now?
One, from yesterday's article, we're told point blank that they get access to the new datasheets.
Two, from today's article, we're told point blank that the variant marine codexes are getting a free update:
** If you’re a fan of the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Deathwatch, don’t worry – you can look forward to official rules updates coming soon via free PDF download. And remember, you Heretic Astartes players out there will also be gaining Shock Assault for your units in a similar update!
Your complaints are invalid.
I missed that last bit. Deathwatch is decent but they'll definitely want something after this update.
Really hammers home how much it sucks to play an NPC race in 40K. Chaos gets to live with their sub-standard Legion traits for, what, another half-decade?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Really hammers home how much it sucks to play an NPC race in 40K. Chaos gets to live with their sub-standard Legion traits for, what, another half-decade?
some people are saying chaos is topping tournies right now so it's not so bad, but how many of those armies run anything more then 17 red cosrairs from the CSM dex?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Really hammers home how much it sucks to play an NPC race in 40K. Chaos gets to live with their sub-standard Legion traits for, what, another half-decade?
some people are saying chaos is topping tournies right now so it's not so bad, but how many of those armies run anything more then 17 red cosrairs from the CSM dex?
Tournament armies don't equal Fluff armies. Not every Chaos player wants to play "Slaanesh Alpha Legion", "Slaanesh Red Corsairs", or whatever exploit is the flavor this month. This Edition I've bought the: Chaos Index, 8th Ed Codex, Vigilis Ablaze and a 2.0 Codex; and they just now realize that the Chapter and Legion Traits weren't balanced? They should have dropped theses changes in a free PDF.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Really hammers home how much it sucks to play an NPC race in 40K. Chaos gets to live with their sub-standard Legion traits for, what, another half-decade?
some people are saying chaos is topping tournies right now so it's not so bad, but how many of those armies run anything more then 17 red cosrairs from the CSM dex?
Tournament armies don't equal Fluff armies. Not every Chaos player wants to play "Slaanesh Alpha Legion", "Slaanesh Red Corsairs", or whatever exploit is the flavor this month. This Edition I've bought the: Chaos Index, 8th Ed Codex, Vigilis Ablaze and a 2.0 Codex; and they just now realize that the Chapter and Legion Traits weren't balanced? They should have dropped theses changes in a free PDF.
ohh I agree. they need to give CSMs updated traits. especially as some of their traits are direct mirrors IW and AL for example
One issue here is that there doesn't seem to be anything to fix the current problems with running 10 man squads. 10 mans are already not good due to how Morale works. ATSKNF does basically nothing for them. Hopefully they change how it works in some way. And of course, Salamanders and Crimson Fists are both incentivizing MSU squads too.
But really the morale system itself needs an overhaul. It is silly that it impacts 10 man heavy infantry the hardest, and barely matters against hordes as they all have mitigating mechanics. And if they do make ATSKNF good, then Chaos just gets left out in the cold. 10 Man marine squads should be one of the least efficient units in the game to kill with morale, not the easiest.
Yeah, the damage aspect of morale isn't great. They should have just made it into debuffs instead of taking losses.
That way large squads of elite infantry won't be as severely impacted, as in theory they should have the base stats to mitigate any debuff, whereas cannon fodder would be severely impacted, as their terrible stats just got worse.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: They should have just made it into debuffs instead of taking losses.
That way large squads of elite infantry won't be as severely impacted, as in theory they should have the base stats to mitigate any debuff, whereas cannon fodder would be severely impacted, as their terrible stats just got worse.
This is a pretty cool idea. Making it debuffs instead of losses might even make anti-Ld armies like Night Lords fun to play. Successfully inflicting "terror" on your enemies by reducing their Ld to the point where they have a high chance of failing morale would be similar to passing a psychic test on an offensive warlock spell, except it does better against low Ld units. Sounds pretty fluffy.
Very annoyed that CSM didn't get updated tactics which applied to vehicles when SM did a few months after our book came out. They better give us an update ASAP.
I don't mind morale being losses per se. The problem is that it doesn't effect the proper units, and doesn't make distinctions between cowardly and stalwart units.
Generally what you'd expect is that most types of infantry will be less cowardly the more of them there are. This bonus would be larger for more elite units. But currently in the base system, the size of your unit makes no difference to your cowardliness, except that you have more models to lose, and thus can take a bigger morale penalty.
What we should see is that small units ought to be more likely to have someone run, and big units less likely. And it makes no sense to have the amount be only based on the unit itself. Why does 1 squad of 10 marines get hit harder than 2 squads of 5?
In other words, I think the system should be based around leadership mattering, but squad size not mattering, and perhaps giving a leadership buff similar to how orks get. The number of models lost should probably be a percentage of the whole squad, not an absolute number. A horde failing morale should lose a bunch, a marine squad shouldn't, otherwise the morale mechanic will always punish elite units harder than hordes, which is the opposite of what it ought to do.
Hordes should be harder to break the larger they are, but when they break, they break hard. Marines should be harder to break the larger they are, but never lose all that much to breaking.
Or we could just get back the pre-8th style where morale breaks force you to move back, and you can get sweeping advanced. I liked that system more.
i personally feel the moral system just needs to be deleted from the game. It has no relevence in the 40k setting. It only exists because of a World War table top game design concept for moral. "fearless blobs" can be handled easily if there are game concerns. 40k is no surrender no retreat (for every faction not just marines.)
ThatMG wrote: i personally feel the moral system just needs to be deleted from the game. It has no relevence in the 40k setting. It only exists because of a World War table top game design concept for moral. "fearless blobs" can be handled easily if there are game concerns. 40k is no surrender no retreat (for every faction not just marines.)
Off topic but I agree as well. Whether it is a genetically engineered supper soldier, to a Warp infused creature, to an unknowable xenos, to a steely guardsman the setting of 40k is so insane it makes morale seem silly. If they are on the table top it should be assumed it is kill or be killed.
On topic very happy with the Iron Hands trait but I think you'll see crimson fists as the go to competitive option. The extra +1 to hit is so useful in the meta.
aracersss wrote: ... new IH upgrade frame
... probably in conjunction with feirros coming later this month
Called it. I’d put money on each supplement having an upgrade come out with it or shortly before/after.
And possibly even special character to run with those Supplements. Or have everyone forgotten this one;
Please please please be kardan stronos....
Also does this mean that certain vehicles be more powerful in other marine armies?
Like will land raiders be better with iron hands or will they be better with imperial fists (with ignoring cover)
Actually thinking about it now, imperial fist one with a crusader is freaking insane. Along with making Deredo Dreadnoughts and Leviathan Dreads.
? Yes, some units are better depending on which tactic you take? That's basically been the case for the entire history of the game :p
Genuinely asking a question but yes, I don't know if predators are better with salamanders over the other tactics. AS raven guard seem to be great with infantry like Devastators.
I DOO like that CTs are no longer infantry bikes and dread only yes. it'll make some chapters naturally my synergistic with certain things. Ironhands are going to be a god too choice for ehavy armor lists. for example
I am very keen to see the updated rules for the BA in the free PDF, I’m hoping it includes the changes to their CT. Though unfortunately my prediction would be that they’ll get terbo charged engines built in for vehicles, and I play mainly Primaris, so if that’s the case it won’t affect me which is no fun! Even if this is what they do (just a guess anyway), I’m loving the extra attack on the charge, that’s tasty.
BrianDavion wrote: Honestly BA, DA and SW's base ability is pretty solid.
No I agree, it’s more that it doesn’t overly stack well with vehicles. I wouldn’t have expected anything more for the base ability, more something a bit more comfortable on their metal boxes. That said it doesn’t matter anyway if they said it won’t be included in the PDF on Facebook.
well keep in mind odds are good we'll see a 2.0 space wolf, BA etc codex sometime next year. the blood angels where notably absent from Vigilius, and vigilius ablaze mentions Terra Sanguinius under attack. I dunno, seems a little too pat. My guess is we'll see a defence lead by the blood angels, and maybe the rest of Ragnar's great company (as only a small strike force was present on Vigilius which was IIRC fluffed as one that answered the call on their way back from a battle zone)
So blood angels get a detachment. and we see a plastic Dante and Ragnar released. as well as a codex BA and SW 2.0
following that we eventually get something involving the dark angels. maybe GW has the flesh tearer present as well, and we get a primaris gabriel seth, as well as a codex supplement flesh tearers
but I admit thats just wishful thinking/spitballing
As a Crimson fist player with a fairly large fully painted Primaris army I'm delighted at the changes. Repulsors firing into blobs of infantry are basically lawn mowers now.
Also might actually use my intercessors with stalker's now!
I do like the slight improvement to the Salamander trait. I wonder if that wording to trying to get around it being used with banners though? That was always a stupid interaction.
Also might actually use my intercessors with stalker's now!
Nobody commented this change before. Now stalkers seem worth it (depending on cost).
Plinking at heavy infantry/monsters/light tanks from 36 with damage 2 seems like a nice bonus for objective-sitting squads.
