Not Online!!! wrote: Do we know if CSM also get a verhaul for the questionable traits design?
proably not anytime soon. It'd be nice if they did but they JUST got a enw codex, if they where going to get a massive overhaul I would have expected it then
Not Online!!! wrote: Do we know if CSM also get a verhaul for the questionable traits design?
proably not anytime soon. It'd be nice if they did but they JUST got a enw codex, if they where going to get a massive overhaul I would have expected it then
What new CSM codex.
The dex 2.0 is not new, it has a terminator price adjustment and nothing else beyond the shadowspear stuff.
That is not new, or good.
It's bs
Not Online!!! wrote: Do we know if CSM also get a verhaul for the questionable traits design?
proably not anytime soon. It'd be nice if they did but they JUST got a enw codex, if they where going to get a massive overhaul I would have expected it then
What new CSM codex.
The dex 2.0 is not new, it has a terminator price adjustment and nothing else beyond the shadowspear stuff.
That is not new, or good.
It's bs
I 100% agree it's bs. but I doubt GW'll publish a new CSM codex this soon. fingers crossed for a FAQ update but.. not holding my breath.
that said I expected the marine index to be like CSM 2.0 so... I'm naturally a pessimist.
So here is a thought, will "successor chapters" still be able to use the parent tactic, or will it be a case of only the correct keyword can use the parent tactic and successors must use the new successor build your own rules?
Obviously rules-wise it doesn't matter what you paint your dudes as, but for the 0.01% of people who might actually care...
And how does this affect the Forge World chapters like Raptors or Red Scorpions?
BaconCatBug wrote: So here is a thought, will "successor chapters" still be able to use the parent tactic, or will it be a case of only the correct keyword can use the parent tactic and successors must use the new successor build your own rules?
Obviously rules-wise it doesn't matter what you paint your dudes as, but for the 0.01% of people who might actually care...
And how does this affect the Forge World chapters like Raptors or Red Scorpions?
I will think it be like a previous edition that allowed you to apply effects to chapter creation.
You have the (8 Chapter Tactics, 19 Successor Tactics)
Meaning at army creation you say
"My dudes are" [Insert Name] they can choose one of the Chapter Tactics OR choose Two Successor Tactics.
Question: With the change to the Stalker Bolt Rifle, did they forget the Master Crafted Version?
Meaning it should be 3 Damage now....because of the buff. As MC is +1 dmg from standard.
ThatMG wrote: Question: With the change to the Stalker Bolt Rifle, did they forget the Master Crafted Version?
Meaning it should be 3 Damage now....because of the buff. As MC is +1 dmg from standard.
On their current listing, only Purge, Scourged, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Death Guard would really gain any benefit on their vehicles. Maybe some of the offensive traits like WE and RC on Daemon engines.
Nightlord1987 wrote: On their current listing, only Purge, Scourged, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Death Guard would really gain any benefit on their vehicles. Maybe some of the offensive traits like WE and RC on Daemon engines.
Pretty much just Purge and Death guard, yes. Big winners would be walkers like the demon engines.
Read a BoLS article (ya I know) that broke down the number of unit entries and how it doesn't quite add up. Basically it said the current SM codex has 85 datasheets and if you add in all the new units we've seen (11) you get 96 entries. But the new SM codex is confirmed to only have 76. But if you remove all the Chapter specific characters and units, it's less than the 20 entry difference.
So it's possible a handful of units are either getting squatted, or HOPEFULLY condensed. Dread/Ven Dread for example can exist on the same datasheet, as could Terminators/Assault Termies. Maybe even Captains can be condensed to 2 datasheets (instead of 5)
Galef wrote: Read a BoLS article (ya I know) that broke down the number of unit entries and how it doesn't quite add up.
Basically it said the current SM codex has 85 datasheets and if you add in all the new units we've seen (11) you get 96 entries.
But the new SM codex is confirmed to only have 76. But if you remove all the Chapter specific characters and units, it's less than the 20 entry difference.
So it's possible a handful of units are either getting squatted, or HOPEFULLY condensed.
Dread/Ven Dread for example can exist on the same datasheet, as could Terminators/Assault Termies. Maybe even Captains can be condensed to 2 datasheets (instead of 5)
Possibly, although with LRs, they have differing transport capacities, so they may stay separate entries. But Personally, I'd be 100% ok with a single LR variant with capacity 10 and more weapon swap choices. You could always put the Crusader back in the BT supplement
Galef wrote: Possibly, although with LRs, they have differing transport capacities, so they may stay separate entries. But Personally, I'd be 100% ok with a single LR variant with capacity 10 and more weapon swap choices. You could always put the Crusader back in the BT supplement
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I'd rather just a straight capacity of 14 and then you put the guns on the chassis. It's REALLY just easier that way.
Galef wrote: Possibly, although with LRs, they have differing transport capacities, so they may stay separate entries. But Personally, I'd be 100% ok with a single LR variant with capacity 10 and more weapon swap choices. You could always put the Crusader back in the BT supplement
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Why would you want the worse transport capacity? Marine players really should aim a bit higher :p 10 models in 8th ed is awful considering how characters buffs work. Minimum capacity for a LR to be useful is 12, and it sucks that most marine vehicles are 10.
Geez, sure 12 Capacity if fine. I just pulled 10 out of my brain (isn't that the Lascannon LR's capacity). My point was that you can combine all non-Crusader/Terminus LRs into 1 datasheet with a single capacity (12), but split the Terminus into the UM supplement and the Crusader (capacity 16) into the Imperial fist supplement (for BTs)
Galef wrote: Geez, sure 12 Capacity if fine. I just pulled 10 out of nowhere. My point was that you can combine all non-Crusader/Terminus LRs into 1 datasheet with a single capacity, but split the Terminus into the UM supplement and the Crusader into the Imperial fist supplement (for BTs)
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Not allowing non-BT to use the Crusader after a decade+ of allowing them to use it isn't going to go over well
Its not a trivial difference. The capacity to put a full squad plus HQ support in a single boat is a major selling point for the best transports.
I agree, but the number was hardly the thesis of my suggestion.
BaconCatBug wrote: Not allowing non-BT to use the Crusader after a decade+ of allowing them to use it isn't going to go over well
Probably not, but considering people hardly use LRs anyway, the outcry would be minimal. Plus, you could easily give the same weapon options to the shared LR datasheet, but only the capacity 16 to Imperial/Crimson fists and BTs
The whole reason that the Crusader has more transport capacity is because it doesn't have the Lascannon capacitors. It makes no sense for a normal Land Raider with Hurricane Bolters to have lower transport cap.
While I hope I'm just doom-and-glooming, is there any confirmation that all of the RealMarine line is still in there? I doubt they'd do this, but they could drop Tacs, Devs, and ASM from the book (Among others).
There have been lots of LandRaider references, and at least one Rhino reference, so we know it can't be a wholesale "Anything old is Index-only". But I'd like to see some confirmation that they're not (yet) dropping the core units.
If there’s an update today what is it usually for codexpreviews? Units or stratagems? I’m incredibly curious if they are going to adjust any of the marines base profiles.
Really stoked about some of the changes. I was going to start building a Death Eagles army but now I can wait for the new Codex and make decisions based on that. Stalker Bolt Rifles going to 2 damage definitely makes them more attractive option, especially when combined with the Indomitus Strategems, and I wonder if Veteran Intercessors will make its way into the Codex proper.
Bharring wrote: I doubt they'd do this, but they could drop Tacs, Devs, and ASM from the book (Among others).
Oh, you meant those guys. They will definitely still be there too.
And hopefully with better options/lower points cost Tacticals, for example, might be able to take 2 special/heavy weapons per unit regardless of size, and maybe a third at 10-man. And maybe Devs get T5 to match Havocs
John Prins wrote: Really stoked about some of the changes. I was going to start building a Death Eagles army but now I can wait for the new Codex and make decisions based on that. Stalker Bolt Rifles going to 2 damage definitely makes them more attractive option, especially when combined with the Indomitus Strategems, and I wonder if Veteran Intercessors will make its way into the Codex proper.
Ooo, yes please. My Blood Angels would thank them for it.
Bharring wrote: While I hope I'm just doom-and-glooming, is there any confirmation that all of the RealMarine line is still in there? I doubt they'd do this, but they could drop Tacs, Devs, and ASM from the book (Among others).
There have been lots of LandRaider references, and at least one Rhino reference, so we know it can't be a wholesale "Anything old is Index-only". But I'd like to see some confirmation that they're not (yet) dropping the core units.
All, without exception? No, there's no such confirmation at this time. But considering there's over 70 datasheets (I forgot the exact number) in the main codex and Primaris are by far not that numerous yet, there's a good chance that nothing that's in plastic has been dropped.
I could see GW taking the opportunity to get rid of the odd Finecast kit, especially if they redo characters as Primaris for the respective chapter supplements, but that's only speculation at this point.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: With the buff to the stalker, surely the auto rifle version will gain a buff also?
Fingers crossed for Assault 3 on Auto BRs. That would make me 2 for 2 as I suggested D2 on Stalkers less than a week before it was confirmed, along with a suggestion on Assault 3 Auto BRs.
I think at some point soon (like in the next 2 years) the old marine plastics will move to "online only" sales. If that happens, it's just a matter of time before they are discontinued. I think the Primaris model is supposed to represent the "true" size of a space marine, so all of the old models will have to go. You will know the coming of the end times when GW makes Primaris Assault and Devastator squads, and the end times are upon you if you see Primaris Terminators!
Bharring wrote: I doubt they'd do this, but they could drop Tacs, Devs, and ASM from the book (Among others).
Oh, you meant those guys. They will definitely still be there too.
And hopefully with better options/lower points cost
Tacticals, for example, might be able to take 2 special/heavy weapons per unit regardless of size, and maybe a third at 10-man.
And maybe Devs get T5 to match Havocs
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Jesus, way to kick chaos in the nuts, 3 specials/heavies at 10 would be a bit much and theres not reay any justification for t5 devastators.
Chaos marines remained the same points so I doubt they'll drop tacs, could be wrong!
Jesus, way to kick chaos in the nuts, 3 specials/heavies at 10 would be a bit much and theres not reay any justification for t5 devastators.
For clarity, I want the same thing for Chaos Marines too, it's just that they aren't getting an updated Codex right now. And if Havoc got T5 because the bulk of the weapon, Dev should too.
And hopefully with better options/lower points cost
Tacticals, for example, might be able to take 2 special/heavy weapons per unit regardless of size, and maybe a third at 10-man.
And maybe Devs get T5 to match Havocs
And hopefully with better options/lower points cost
Tacticals, for example, might be able to take 2 special/heavy weapons per unit regardless of size, and maybe a third at 10-man.
And maybe Devs get T5 to match Havocs
Not happening.
Yeah, probably not. Which is why they'll continue to not be taken over Primaris units (just as planned)
Shaping up to potentially make some tailored lists if there are 19 to pick that's what 361 combinations?
I'v got a funny feeling when the FF chapter supplements come out though they'll be so plastered with decent chapter specific relics and strategems it might relegate the custom chapter stuff to 'meh'
Jesus, way to kick chaos in the nuts, 3 specials/heavies at 10 would be a bit much and theres not reay any justification for t5 devastators.
For clarity, I want the same thing for Chaos Marines too, it's just that they aren't getting an updated Codex right now. And if Havoc got T5 because the bulk of the weapon, Dev should too.
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Havocs are t5 due to being all warp infused and frankly massive compared to a marine, the squad leader is t5 armed with a bolter.
The mix and match seems good and it looks like they haven't gone too wild with it either which is good.
Latro_ wrote: Shaping up to potentially make some tailored lists if there are 19 to pick that's what 361 combinations?
AFAIK the most common etiquette is to decide on traits and keywords at the army list stage. Yes, some people will try and abuse things like the Preferred Enemy trait but people did so anyway back in 4th and always will so no point in stressing about it.
Assuming it's 19 including Inheritors of the Primarch, it would be (18*17)+1=306 Combos, since you can't take the same trait twice and Inheritors of the Primarch is on it's lonesome.
The mix and match has me worried, it's very hard to balance 19 different bonuses with no cost attached and very likely there are some bonkers combinations.
As it seems like you'll be able to take the different parts of the main chapters as bonuses a couple that immediately jump out are:
Advance and charge + reroll any charge dice, makes for super reliable charges.
Fallback and shot/overwatch on 5 etc + reroll a single hit and wound, the salamanders have a great half a tactic, swapping the ignore ap1 for something better seems like a winner.
With that many combos and the model range for space marines there is a massive swathe of list tailoring to specifc combos e.g. like you example 11" flamers... go made on agressors.
expect some will crop up to be the 'best' its gonna take some time though! might not be that painful to milk out the competitive juice if a few of them are 'meh' like the xenos race one
Yes, so 153 combinations if the Inheritors of the Primarch is one of the 19 options, and assuming you can just select the two component parts of the first founding tactics with the other 18 options.
WisdomLS wrote: The mix and match has me worried, it's very hard to balance 19 different bonuses with no cost attached and very likely there are some bonkers combinations.
As it seems like you'll be able to take the different parts of the main chapters as bonuses a couple that immediately jump out are:
Advance and charge + reroll any charge dice, makes for super reliable charges.
Fallback and shot/overwatch on 5 etc + reroll a single hit and wound, the salamanders have a great half a tactic, swapping the ignore ap1 for something better seems like a winner.
I don't think you can do this. 18 tactics would logically suggest you can pick each 'half' of every founding legion, but since there are new 'half' traits, some of the legion tactics must be off the list for mix and matching. Doubly so because this would render the 'copy father legion tactic' trait useless, so my guess will be that half of every (or at worst most of them) single legion tactic is off the table...
Being able to create your own chapter tactic is super awesome. I really hope that doing so doesn't lock you out from terribly many stratagems and relics.
WisdomLS wrote: The mix and match has me worried, it's very hard to balance 19 different bonuses with no cost attached and very likely there are some bonkers combinations.
As it seems like you'll be able to take the different parts of the main chapters as bonuses a couple that immediately jump out are: Advance and charge + reroll any charge dice, makes for super reliable charges. Fallback and shot/overwatch on 5 etc + reroll a single hit and wound, the salamanders have a great half a tactic, swapping the ignore ap1 for something better seems like a winner.
I don't think you can do this. 18 tactics would logically suggest you can pick each 'half' of every founding legion, but since there are new 'half' traits, some of the legion tactics must be off the list for mix and matching. Doubly so because this would render the 'copy father legion tactic' trait useless, so my guess will be that half of every (or at worst most of them) single legion tactic is off the table...
They might have added the Father Legion tactic simply because they knew some people wouldn't understand and get upset, but we don't know if you can identically replicate every fixed tactic yet.
Also, due to the "Look at the fluff" rule in the current SM codex, I don't think it was legal to have a "successor" of the BT or CF use their tactics, but now it's super duper not allowed. You'll need to use the BLACK TEMPLAR or CRIMSON FISTS keyword now.
wasn't there a huge point of contention about the creation of primarus marines and how they are all vat grown and such
well with tiggy and KHAAAAANNNN being upgraded seems like the doors have opened for story and other models.
would love to see what happens to lysander.
Isn't he dead?
AFAIK no.
In 998.M41, Lysander defeated the Iron Warriors Warsmith Shon'tu once more in the Battle for the Endeavour of Will, saving the Imperial Fists starfort Endeavour of Will from being captured by Shon'tu and earning the Warsmith's eternal emnity as a result.
Lysander also apprehended the mutant Sarpedon, the Chapter Master of the tragic Renegade Soul Drinkers Chapter.
I really hope the first part of the White Scars tactic is something you can choose. I really like it, but as Primaris do not (yet) have (jet) bikes, the last part of the full WS tactic is utterly wasted,
The wording on Bolter Fusillades is odd. It seems to be that a model can only re-roll a single hit roll of 1. So if it has a multiple shot weapon, you can't re-roll them all. Which also means that when having a whole unit fire, you need to keep their dice separate from each other, which will be a massive hassle.
The wording on Bolter Fusillades is odd. It seems to be that a model can only re-roll a single hit roll of 1. So if it has a multiple shot weapon, you can't re-roll them all. Which also means that when having a whole unit fire, you need to keep their dice separate from each other, which will be a massive hassle.
I though the wording meant you can only ever reroll 1 hit roll of a 1.
The wording on Bolter Fusillades is odd. It seems to be that a model can only re-roll a single hit roll of 1. So if it has a multiple shot weapon, you can't re-roll them all. Which also means that when having a whole unit fire, you need to keep their dice separate from each other, which will be a massive hassle.
Its just the new wording for what an attack is. A weapon with 3 shots isn't 3 separate attacks, it's a single attack with 3 rolls to hit.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The wording on Bolter Fusillades is odd. It seems to be that a model can only re-roll a single hit roll of 1. So if it has a multiple shot weapon, you can't re-roll them all. Which also means that when having a whole unit fire, you need to keep their dice separate from each other, which will be a massive hassle.
That isn't how it works. A Heavy Bolter has 3 Attacks, and each attack is resolved one at a time, so each attack gets to re-roll 1's.
It's stupid wording that's going to cause arguments, but it does technically work.
Eh, other rules with re-rolling 1's clearly state "re-roll hit rolls of 1"....it is worded poorly and does indeed sound like you re-roll only one shot.
Elbows wrote: Eh, other rules with re-rolling 1's clearly state "re-roll hit rolls of 1"....it is worded poorly and does indeed sound like you re-roll only one shot.
It's writen that way so only Bolt Weapons get to benefit. I agree it's clunky and should be worded better.
wasn't there a huge point of contention about the creation of primarus marines and how they are all vat grown and such
well with tiggy and KHAAAAANNNN being upgraded seems like the doors have opened for story and other models.
would love to see what happens to lysander.
Isn't he dead?
Oh...
I wonder if the fists will get a new boi.
Nah, Lysander's not dead. Death came for him once. It was Death's last mistake.
...
I'd love it if we got primaisized Lysander as the first Primaris Terminator. Knowing GW they'll probably stick him in fatboy Mk.X, though.
I'm currently excited about the prospect of getting Imperial Fists dice. The character coming with the supplement, I'll just wait and see. Not even hope for the best. Just wait and see. Maybe GW surprises me.
wasn't there a huge point of contention about the creation of primarus marines and how they are all vat grown and such
well with tiggy and KHAAAAANNNN being upgraded seems like the doors have opened for story and other models.
would love to see what happens to lysander.
Isn't he dead?
Oh...
I wonder if the fists will get a new boi.
I might be mistaken - happens a lot! - or it might be one of those things where he was dead and now...he's not?
Either way, you might be OK, and everyone's favorite yellow armor clad loonie with a hammer might "Cross The Rubicon Primaris" after all!
The 4th ed codex introduced (Captain) Lysander as a historical character, speaking of him only in the past tense and suggesting that he was dead in 999M.41. Suggested, but not confirmed.
Ward era Lysander brought him into modern 40k after breaking out of a Iron Warriors prison (while he was naked and the Iron Warriors were not - wimps!).
I'm not aware that he got killed off in the meantime, but given his history it's understandable that he's a bit confusing in that regard.
Elbows wrote: Eh, other rules with re-rolling 1's clearly state "re-roll hit rolls of 1"....it is worded poorly and does indeed sound like you re-roll only one shot.
"Re-roll a hit roll of 1" is very specifically a singular hit roll of 1 each time the model makes a ranged attack. Wording is clear but application is clunky and hard to use. Rolling those rapid fire shots per model etc.
Nah, Lysander's not dead. Death came for him once. It was Death's last mistake.
...
I'd love it if we got primaisized Lysander as the first Primaris Terminator. Knowing GW they'll probably stick him in fatboy Mk.X, though.
I'm hoping we get the Primaris equivalent of Terminator Armor too - that and getting more options for existing Primaris units, so we can finally field all Primaris armies all the time!
Elbows wrote: Eh, other rules with re-rolling 1's clearly state "re-roll hit rolls of 1"....it is worded poorly and does indeed sound like you re-roll only one shot.
"Re-roll a hit roll of 1" is very specifically a singular hit roll of 1 each time the model makes a ranged attack. Wording is clear but application is clunky and hard to use. Rolling those rapid fire shots per model etc.
Did you not see my explanation? Each attack is made one at a time. A heavy bolter makes 3 attacks, and each of those attacks can be re-rolled if 1.
Elbows wrote: Eh, other rules with re-rolling 1's clearly state "re-roll hit rolls of 1"....it is worded poorly and does indeed sound like you re-roll only one shot.
"Re-roll a hit roll of 1" is very specifically a singular hit roll of 1 each time the model makes a ranged attack. Wording is clear but application is clunky and hard to use. Rolling those rapid fire shots per model etc.
Did you not see my explanation? Each attack is made one at a time. A heavy bolter makes 3 attacks, and each of those attacks can be re-rolled if 1.
As much as I like the "add 3" to your ranged weapons" trait, I do not like what it's going to do to Melta & Rapid fire weapons. 27" RF being 13.5" at half range is gonna be awkward
catbarf wrote: I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.
For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.
Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.
Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.
But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.
I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.
Well free access to a 6++ for a 5 point model is a bit much don't you think?
Also that extra hit only works with Bolt Weapons.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well free access to a 6++ for a 5 point model is a bit much don't you think?
Also that extra hit only works with Bolt Weapons.
I don't see how the points value is relevant. A 17% increase in durability is a 17% regardless of what it's on. It's not like I get any extra bonus if my troops are 20+pt Warriors instead.
That's fair on the bolt weapon requirement, though. At least it's not bonus hits for Hellblasters.
catbarf wrote: I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.
For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.
Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.
I take you never seen ork book then? They also have 2 traits each, hell, ork 'salamanders' are still better than SM ones, even with this buff.
Also storm troopers have better weapons than most marines, plus orders to boot. Their doctrine is more useful, plus, you ignore all the examples where SM are still worse. For example, the -1 to hit Ultramarines have after falling back is dumb, IG and Orks (maybe more, these two just came to mind) can do it too with no penalties...
Galef wrote: As much as I like the "add 3" to your ranged weapons" trait, I do not like what it's going to do to Melta & Rapid fire weapons. 27" RF being 13.5" at half range is gonna be awkward
It's also a nice way to sell more Drop Pods & Devastators
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well free access to a 6++ for a 5 point model is a bit much don't you think?
Also that extra hit only works with Bolt Weapons.
I don't see how the points value is relevant. A 17% increase in durability is a 17% regardless of what it's on. It's not like I get any extra bonus if my troops are 20+pt Warriors instead.
That's fair on the bolt weapon requirement, though. At least it's not bonus hits for Hellblasters.
Point values are relevant because cheaper models get more out of needing to roll a 6+++.
Imagine Cultists or Infantry getting it for no requirement. At least Poxwalkers pay for their 5+++ and morale, and they don't get an armor save (in the open) either.
You know, now that we have seen the new half-traits, I wonder if Blood Raven ones are on the mixing table too. Hopefully you can take the useless garbage that is first half of their trait and replace it with anything else. But then again, even librarian buff won't be that good unless new psychic tables are fixed...
After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.
casvalremdeikun wrote: After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.
Well it always gets the bonus against vehicles
Also if the squad is already diminished then does the bonus really matter.
casvalremdeikun wrote: After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.
Well it always gets the bonus against vehicles
Also if the squad is already diminished then does the bonus really matter.
It never gets a bonus against vehicles. Only Crimson Fists vehicles count as 5 models. Enemy vehicles are unaffected. Characters used to be able to go after smaller squads, now they don't get any bonus.
Galef wrote: As much as I like the "add 3" to your ranged weapons" trait, I do not like what it's going to do to Melta & Rapid fire weapons. 27" RF being 13.5" at half range is gonna be awkward
27" RF gets to shoot to 14". Modifying Characteristics Sidebar, BRB 175. The range of a weapon is a Charactertistic, also as per page 175, section "8. Weapons"
However the melta effect is not a Characteristic, so you would use the real value of 13.5" imho.
catbarf wrote: I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.
For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.
Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.
Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.
But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.
I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.
It needs to be this way because the marine statline is bad. Marines are less efficient per point compared to these other units. The more powerful trait is a way to make them viable with blanket rules. Otherwise GW would have to go and change the statline on pretty much every marine datasheet, which means reprinting half their books or more.
Even with the +1 attack from shock assault and these double traits, its still pretty likely that regular marines will not be worth fielding. Primaris may work now. More likely we'll see a situation like what Chaos is in where some marine vehicles and characters are now good due to getting traits, but we still don't see regular marine infantry on the field.
Galef wrote: As much as I like the "add 3" to your ranged weapons" trait, I do not like what it's going to do to Melta & Rapid fire weapons. 27" RF being 13.5" at half range is gonna be awkward
27" RF gets to shoot to 14". Modifying Characteristics Sidebar, BRB 175. The range of a weapon is a Charactertistic, also as per page 175, section "8. Weapons"
However the melta effect is not a Characteristic, so you would use the real value of 13.5" imho.
casvalremdeikun wrote: After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.
Well it always gets the bonus against vehicles
Also if the squad is already diminished then does the bonus really matter.
It never gets a bonus against vehicles. Only Crimson Fists vehicles count as 5 models. Enemy vehicles are unaffected. Characters used to be able to go after smaller squads, now they don't get any bonus.
catbarf wrote: I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.
For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.
Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.
I take you never seen ork book then? They also have 2 traits each, hell, ork 'salamanders' are still better than SM ones, even with this buff.
Also storm troopers have better weapons than most marines, plus orders to boot. Their doctrine is more useful, plus, you ignore all the examples where SM are still worse. For example, the -1 to hit Ultramarines have after falling back is dumb, IG and Orks (maybe more, these two just came to mind) can do it too with no penalties...
Half the Ork Clans have single traits, but those single traits tend to be pretty good (except maybe Snakebites).
I like how the Ork book made a lot of things quite a bit better rather than just making them cheaper, and I'm especially happy that the new SM book is doing this since they are supposed to be an elite army. I'm hoping some of the earlier books will also get multi-part faction abilities.
I'm wondering what the new Imperial Fists stratagem will be since the old one got rolled into their Chapter Tactic?
Galef wrote: As much as I like the "add 3" to your ranged weapons" trait, I do not like what it's going to do to Melta & Rapid fire weapons. 27" RF being 13.5" at half range is gonna be awkward
27" RF gets to shoot to 14". Modifying Characteristics Sidebar, BRB 175. The range of a weapon is a Charactertistic, also as per page 175, section "8. Weapons"
However the melta effect is not a Characteristic, so you would use the real value of 13.5" imho.
Sweet, thanx
-
So I just re-read the Rapid Fire rules, I think I was wrong here. I think that it's going to be 13.5" for both.
A model firing a Rapid Fire weapon doubles the number of attacks it makes if its target is within half the weapon’s maximum range.
Same wording as the Melta rule. Since you're not modifying the characteristic of the weapon itself, you use the real value of 13.5" for both.
casvalremdeikun wrote: After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.
Well it always gets the bonus against vehicles
Also if the squad is already diminished then does the bonus really matter.
It never gets a bonus against vehicles. Only Crimson Fists vehicles count as 5 models. Enemy vehicles are unaffected. Characters used to be able to go after smaller squads, now they don't get any bonus.
A read that wrong.
Yep a bit brutal of a nerf.
Especially when IH got a huge boost and Successor Tactics are shaping up to be amazing.
Galef wrote: As much as I like the "add 3" to your ranged weapons" trait, I do not like what it's going to do to Melta & Rapid fire weapons. 27" RF being 13.5" at half range is gonna be awkward
27" RF gets to shoot to 14". Modifying Characteristics Sidebar, BRB 175. The range of a weapon is a Charactertistic, also as per page 175, section "8. Weapons"
However the melta effect is not a Characteristic, so you would use the real value of 13.5" imho.
So Sternguard would get their Rapid Fire at 17" basically.
That's a bit much but they're still expensive so...
catbarf wrote: I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.
For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.
Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.
Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.
But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.
I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.
Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.
casvalremdeikun wrote: After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.
Well it always gets the bonus against vehicles
Also if the squad is already diminished then does the bonus really matter.
It never gets a bonus against vehicles. Only Crimson Fists vehicles count as 5 models. Enemy vehicles are unaffected. Characters used to be able to go after smaller squads, now they don't get any bonus.
A read that wrong.
Yep a bit brutal of a nerf.
Especially when IH got a huge boost and Successor Tactics are shaping up to be amazing.
casvalremdeikun wrote: After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.
Well it always gets the bonus against vehicles
Also if the squad is already diminished then does the bonus really matter.
It never gets a bonus against vehicles. Only Crimson Fists vehicles count as 5 models. Enemy vehicles are unaffected. Characters used to be able to go after smaller squads, now they don't get any bonus.
A read that wrong.
Yep a bit brutal of a nerf.
Especially when IH got a huge boost and Successor Tactics are shaping up to be amazing.
I told you guys the Tactic was really bad...
Definitely not disagreeing there. Easily the worse than its original form, even with the added bolt weapon bonus. GW really screwed the pooch on this one.
So I wonder if the Blood ravens info was actually a preview of the DIY chapter system. I also wonder if the chief libby strat will be one of the new strats in the book, I could see GW giving us a few starts like that, chief librarian. one extra psykic power, high reclusiarch the ability to take another litany etc. (or maybe get them off on 2+s since I doubt we're going to have the miniors a dark apostate has)
catbarf wrote: I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.
For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.
Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.
Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.
But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.
I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.
Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.
I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet
catbarf wrote: I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.
For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.
Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.
Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.
But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.
I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.
Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.
I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet
the only other armies I could see potentially getting this treatment are guard, and chaos Marines.
and frankly givedn that guard are all differant looks I'm not sure GW will want to enchourage it.
Er, the new Crimson Fist tactic is amazing. True, the +1 to hit is a little worse and no longer combos with bolter drill, but the the second part is always on all your units and you don't need to spend command points.
Plus, its extra hits on unmodified 6s now. That's not extra attacks, that's an extra hit. As written, that's all 6s, including during overwatch. That doubles the damage they do on overwatch with bolters! Which is probably why they threw the boost to overwatch on IH to give them three traits.
I mean there are other thing you can use it for too. Drop a max sized squad of vet Intercessors and unleash a massive amount of bolter shots with the +1 still kicking in against squads of 15+.
Ah, so literally never use it since no one runs big units like that. Fantastic. And fluffwise, CF ran smaller units because they had fewer Marines. That is the fluff basis for their tactics. They even do so now because they have adapted their training regimen. So using big units as a basis makes no sense.
catbarf wrote: I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.
For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.
Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.
Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.
But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.
I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.
Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.
I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet
the only other armies I could see potentially getting this treatment are guard, and chaos Marines.
and frankly givedn that guard are all differant looks I'm not sure GW will want to enchourage it.
At the very least Militarum Tempestus should get a supplement. Some of the old orders could be shined up and called new, a revamp to the doctrine to allow extra hits on sixes like in Killteam, special stratagems, and still having access to the Advisors and Auxillia list units.
catbarf wrote: I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.
For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.
Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.
Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.
But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.
I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.
Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.
I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet
the only other armies I could see potentially getting this treatment are guard, and chaos Marines.
and frankly givedn that guard are all differant looks I'm not sure GW will want to enchourage it.
Csm though are a prime target for it.
There are quite a few warbands that could get add ons and some legions might get fleshed out propperly.
Also more shekels because you now need dex + supplement for army. Which is always good in GW's eyes.
catbarf wrote: I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.
For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.
Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.
Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.
But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.
I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.
Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.
I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet
catbarf wrote: I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.
For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.
Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.
Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.
But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.
I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.
Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.
I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet
catbarf wrote: I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.
For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.
Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.
Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.
But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.
I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.
Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.
I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet
Didn't Guard and Tyranids have it in 4th too?
Essentially yes.
Yeah, and it was great. Guard only had a 3rd ed codex though, didn't they? I thought they missed out on 4rd ed and jumped straight to 5th.
casvalremdeikun wrote: After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.
I think it is more of a side-grade than a nerf to the core +1 mechanic. Sure it is worse on Character models (they rarely need it ) and depleted squads but it now works on vehicles so we get more value out of the storm bolters etc there. I always viewed it primarily as a means for horde control and it still works very well for that. The second and new part is very strong for a typical CF list as it gives 25% more hits with bolter weapons under normal circumstances. That second part also appears to work in overwatch which is sweet.
I would say that Imperial Fists do slightly better now but that's OK and I feel no need to repaint my army yellow. If we still get some new version of the same stratagems I will be quite content.
catbarf wrote: I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.
For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.
Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.
Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.
But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.
I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.
Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.
I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet
Didn't Guard and Tyranids have it in 4th too?
Essentially yes.
Yeah, and it was great. Guard only had a 3rd ed codex though, didn't they? I thought they missed out on 4rd ed and jumped straight to 5th.
I think you might be right. I think that the Guard had two codexes in 3rd and then got their next one in 5th.
*Edit: not counting supplements like Catachans and Armageddon
catbarf wrote: I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.
For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.
Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.
Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.
But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.
I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.
Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.
I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet
Hilarious that Marine Chapters are considered more diverse than Guard Regiments - hilarious and false
Marine Chapters are also a Sub-Sub faction. Imperium - Marines - Chapter
Asherian Command wrote: Finally I can accurately represent my Non-Unforgiven Chapter in the rules accurately while still maintaining the original flavor of the dark angels.
Plus this does give me hope we might see close combat squads.
I wonder if each of the eight Chapter Tactics will see a model release of a character. Seems like a decent way to snag an extra $40 from a player.
If so, my guesses are the following:
UM - already revealed to be Tigurius
WS - already revealed to be Kor'sarro Khan
IH - already revealed as the Iron Father, but who he is has not been revealed (please be Stronos!)
IF - Tor Garadon. We already have his pistol, give us the rest of him. Plus, sales of Lysander won't be cannibalized. They could even make him Chapter Master.
RG - Shrike. Give him a model fit for a Chapter Master!
Salamanders - Vulkan. He already has non-standard wargear so it isn't a big stretch to see him as a new model.
CF - Pedro Kantor. Again, non-standard wargear on one arm, a power fist on the other.
BT - Emperor's Champion or Grimaldus. EC because it is a pretty straightforward update. Grimaldus because the new Litanies of Faith would work very well with a new model to be released alongside them.
catbarf wrote: I feel like each of the traits we're seeing would be pretty strong as a trait in any other codex, and getting to choose two of them is a bit much.
For example, take the Storm Troopers doctrine that Guard get: If you're at half range or less, you get an extra shot for each roll of 6.
Meanwhile one of the new Astartes traits is an extra hit on a 6. Hit, not shot, and no range limit. And then they can still take another trait, too.
Or, with Tyranids, Leviathan gives each model in Synapse range a 6+ FNP.
But it's looking like Astartes can just have a 6+ FNP all the time. And, again, then select another trait.
I'm wondering if there's going to be a disadvantage here, or if Marines just get two traits now all the time while everyone else gets to pick one.
Well wouldn't be surprised for new codexes from now on have similar system. Business as usual to change power level of armies etc suddenly. Poor chaos just got codex so are unlikely to get similar treatment for ages.
I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet
Didn't Guard and Tyranids have it in 4th too?
Essentially yes.
Yeah, and it was great. Guard only had a 3rd ed codex though, didn't they? I thought they missed out on 4rd ed and jumped straight to 5th.
I think you might be right. I think that the Guard had two codexes in 3rd and then got their next one in 5th.
*Edit: not counting supplements like Catachans and Armageddon
The super customisable codexes stated in late 3rd and carried on into 4th, Tyranids with their Mutable Genus rule were a 3rd ed codex.and their next one was also 5th.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder if each of the eight Chapter Tactics will see a model release of a character. Seems like a decent way to snag an extra $40 from a player.
If so, my guesses are the following:
UM - already revealed to be Tigurius
WS - already revealed to be Kor'sarro Khan
IH - already revealed as the Iron Father, but who he is has not been revealed (please be Stronos!)
IF - Tor Garadon. We already have his pistol, give us the rest of him. Plus, sales of Lysander won't be cannibalized. They could even make him Chapter Master.
RG - Shrike. Give him a model fit for a Chapter Master!
Salamanders - Vulkan. He already has non-standard wargear so it isn't a big stretch to see him as a new model.
CF - Pedro Kantor. Again, non-standard wargear on one arm, a power fist on the other.
BT - Emperor's Champion or Grimaldus. EC because it is a pretty straightforward update. Grimaldus because the new Litanies of Faith would work very well with a new model to be released alongside them.
As long as I can still use my stand-in for Shrike I would be fine with that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also have we heard anything regarding Grav, or at least the points for it? I want to use the Grav Cannon without costing as much as two frickin Marines.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder if each of the eight Chapter Tactics will see a model release of a character. Seems like a decent way to snag an extra $40 from a player.
If so, my guesses are the following:
UM - already revealed to be Tigurius
WS - already revealed to be Kor'sarro Khan
IH - already revealed as the Iron Father, but who he is has not been revealed (please be Stronos!)
IF - Tor Garadon. We already have his pistol, give us the rest of him. Plus, sales of Lysander won't be cannibalized. They could even make him Chapter Master.
RG - Shrike. Give him a model fit for a Chapter Master!
Salamanders - Vulkan. He already has non-standard wargear so it isn't a big stretch to see him as a new model.
CF - Pedro Kantor. Again, non-standard wargear on one arm, a power fist on the other.
BT - Emperor's Champion or Grimaldus. EC because it is a pretty straightforward update. Grimaldus because the new Litanies of Faith would work very well with a new model to be released alongside them.
As long as I can still use my stand-in for Shrike I would be fine with that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also have we heard anything regarding Grav, or at least the points for it? I want to use the Grav Cannon without costing as much as two frickin Marines.
Shrike if updated will probably end up being in the inceptor armor for fly or be a revier marine.
casvalremdeikun wrote: After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.
Well it always gets the bonus against vehicles
Also if the squad is already diminished then does the bonus really matter.
It never gets a bonus against vehicles. Only Crimson Fists vehicles count as 5 models. Enemy vehicles are unaffected. Characters used to be able to go after smaller squads, now they don't get any bonus.
A read that wrong.
Yep a bit brutal of a nerf.
It's less effective on characters and small min sized 3 man squads, sure - but it's much more likely to be available against big squads.
casvalremdeikun wrote: After really looking at how the other Chapter Tactics work, I guess I don't see why GW felt the need to nerf Crimson Fists. It used to be Twice the models. Now it is +5. Really takes the wind out of my sails since it makes diminishing squads less effective.
Well it always gets the bonus against vehicles
Also if the squad is already diminished then does the bonus really matter.
It never gets a bonus against vehicles. Only Crimson Fists vehicles count as 5 models. Enemy vehicles are unaffected. Characters used to be able to go after smaller squads, now they don't get any bonus.
A read that wrong.
Yep a bit brutal of a nerf.
It's less effective on characters and small min sized 3 man squads, sure - but it's much more likely to be available against big squads.
So Unfluffy units for Crimson Fists. Got it.
As for Shrike, I would think he would be in either Inceptor Gravis armor (while maintaining his Lightning Claws) or Suppressor Omnis armor (again while maintaining his claws, but also likely keeping his pistol).
For the most part, they seem to by trying to keep the same silhouette of the characters they are updating to Primaris (Khan is a little different, but now he has a birdie). I don't see them dropping Shrike's jump pack by making him wear Reiver armor.
Crimson wrote: They just announced a bunch of new plastic space marines.
He's not talking about Primaris Marines.
He said 'plastic space marines'. It is really not problem if some people have trouble understanding that the primaris are space marines. The space marines are going nowhere, and they look better than ever.
You get a big 5 man bonus at full 10 man strength against any unit bigger than 15. at 5 man its the same between both new and old rules but below it changes in that you get major diminishing returns.
it evens out a bit in theory but the question is how often would you fight against big 15+ man squads vs smaller 10 or 5 man squads.
it really determines how often your benefits get turned off.
also new rules mean that as you only benefit from your CT when you are losing and your units are beaten up but the enemies still has a bunch. (while old rules are similar the enemy could be a little more beaten up before the benefits go away)
Crimson wrote: They just announced a bunch of new plastic space marines.
He's not talking about Primaris Marines.
He said 'plastic space marines'. It is really not problem if some people have trouble understanding that the primaris are space marines. The space marines are going nowhere, and they look better than ever.
Also, there is a new datasheet that is NOT Primaris coming in the White Scars book (Khan on bike). So it isn't like they are completely ignoring RSM.
Crimson wrote: He said 'plastic space marines'. It is really not problem if some people have trouble understanding that the primaris are space marines. The space marines are going nowhere, and they look better than ever.
Not the point. The point was that it was the second time in two posts that you missed that someone was talking about regular Space Marines and not Primaris.
Kirasu wrote: It's fairly absurd to think their most successful range (plastic space marines) are getting dropped. Eldar has models from 1993.
They just announced a bunch of new plastic space marines.
It was damned obvious what they were both talking about, and you seem to have either missed that or (and this is far more likely, given your reply to me) glibly and intentionally misinterpreted what they said.
Crimson wrote: They just announced a bunch of new plastic space marines.
He's not talking about Primaris Marines.
He said 'plastic space marines'. It is really not problem if some people have trouble understanding that the primaris are space marines. The space marines are going nowhere, and they look better than ever.
Also, there is a new datasheet that is NOT Primaris coming in the White Scars book (Khan on bike). So it isn't like they are completely ignoring RSM.
Where did you hear we where getting a Khan on a bike data sheet in the white scars book?
as for crimson fists it sounds like math wise the only units "nerfed" are characters and agressors. and frankly I'd not say a army consisting of a bunch of captains and agressors is particularly fluffy
Crimson wrote: They just announced a bunch of new plastic space marines.
He's not talking about Primaris Marines.
He said 'plastic space marines'. It is really not problem if some people have trouble understanding that the primaris are space marines. The space marines are going nowhere, and they look better than ever.
Also, there is a new datasheet that is NOT Primaris coming in the White Scars book (Khan on bike). So it isn't like they are completely ignoring RSM.
Where did you hear we where getting a Khan on a bike data sheet in the white scars book?
as for crimson fists it sounds like math wise the only units "nerfed" are characters and agressors. and frankly I'd not say a army consisting of a bunch of captains and agressors is particularly fluffy
In the Pre-order Preview article. I snapshotted the section below.
It was damned obvious what they were both talking about, and you seem to have either missed that or (and this is far more likely, given your reply to me) glibly and intentionally misinterpreted what they said.
Of course was intentional. If people are going to continue with this idiotic 'the primaris are not real space marines' nonsense, then I'm going to respond with the respect it deserves.
Besides, we all know, that 'the real space marines', the Rogue Trader plastic beakies, were discontinued decades ago.
Crimson wrote: Of course was intentional. If people are going to continue with this idiotic 'the primaris are not real space marines' nonsense, then I'm going to respond with the respect it deserves.
It's not idiotic. You like Primaris, something you made perfectly clear, but a lot of people don't.
Acting like you don't know what they're talking about when they Space Marines vs Primaris Marines insults their intelligence and you're basically telling them that their dislike of Primaries Marines is wrong and invalid.
Crimson wrote: They just announced a bunch of new plastic space marines.
He's not talking about Primaris Marines.
He said 'plastic space marines'. It is really not problem if some people have trouble understanding that the primaris are space marines. The space marines are going nowhere, and they look better than ever.
Also, there is a new datasheet that is NOT Primaris coming in the White Scars book (Khan on bike). So it isn't like they are completely ignoring RSM.
Where did you hear we where getting a Khan on a bike data sheet in the white scars book?
as for crimson fists it sounds like math wise the only units "nerfed" are characters and agressors. and frankly I'd not say a army consisting of a bunch of captains and agressors is particularly fluffy
In the Pre-order Preview article. I snapshotted the section below.
Ahh I see it. It's not Korsaro Khan, just "a Khan" which makes sense as the model exists for a white scars bike captain
There are plenty of cool primaris models, but they're a mixed bag at best and the better models are dogged by the worst. Biggest problem of all is they just look awful next to normal marines, it detracts from both.
Crablezworth wrote: There are plenty of cool primaris models, but they're a mixed bag at best and the better models are dogged by the worst. Biggest problem of all is they just look awful next to normal marines, it detracts from both.
imho its the other way around for me.
its hard to look at old marine models next to primarus
Crimson wrote: Of course was intentional. If people are going to continue with this idiotic 'the primaris are not real space marines' nonsense, then I'm going to respond with the respect it deserves.
It's not idiotic. You like Primaris, something you made perfectly clear, but a lot of people don't.
Acting like you don't know what they're talking about when they Space Marines vs Primaris Marines insults their intelligence and you're basically telling them that their dislike of Primaries Marines is wrong and invalid.
Give it a rest.
You can dislike them all you want. Not that it will do any good and whining about the inevitable is tiresome. Did you whine about it for thirty years when the discontinued the RT beakies?
But at least present the opinion coherently. Like it or not, the primaris marines are space marines, and thus not including these new releases in the category of 'plastic space marines' is objectively and factually incorrect.
Crablezworth wrote: There are plenty of cool primaris models, but they're a mixed bag at best and the better models are dogged by the worst. Biggest problem of all is they just look awful next to normal marines, it detracts from both.
imho its the other way around for me.
its hard to look at old marine models next to primarus
that squatty potty look mate.
Precisely why I stick with Mk3-4. They have a little of it but it's significantly less.
Crablezworth wrote: There are plenty of cool primaris models, but they're a mixed bag at best and the better models are dogged by the worst. Biggest problem of all is they just look awful next to normal marines, it detracts from both.
imho its the other way around for me.
its hard to look at old marine models next to primarus
that squatty potty look mate.
Precisely why I stick with Mk3-4. They have a little of it but it's significantly less.
I'm totally down for Shrike getting Phobos gear. The new Eliminator Bolt Sniper Rifles are "Shrike Patterns" if I remember correctly...would be cool to see him get to be more of Corax's "ranged killer" side.
Crablezworth wrote: There are plenty of cool primaris models, but they're a mixed bag at best and the better models are dogged by the worst. Biggest problem of all is they just look awful next to normal marines, it detracts from both.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm totally down for Shrike getting Phobos gear. The new Eliminator Bolt Sniper Rifles are "Shrike Patterns" if I remember correctly...would be cool to see him get to be more of Corax's "ranged killer" side.
That would be fine for a new character or the other Shadow Captain from FW. Shrike is a sneaky, CC killmonster. I want Omnis pattern for him.
BrianDavion wrote: I want phobos with a jump pack, not a inceptor jet pack, a jump pack.
Eh, Omnis is probably the closest you get to that. I get what you are after, but I suspect that Reiver Armor with Grace Chutes is the closest Phobos will get to having a jump pack.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm totally down for Shrike getting Phobos gear. The new Eliminator Bolt Sniper Rifles are "Shrike Patterns" if I remember correctly...would be cool to see him get to be more of Corax's "ranged killer" side.
That would be fine for a new character or the other Shadow Captain from FW. Shrike is a sneaky, CC killmonster. I want Omnis pattern for him.
Shrike's whatever he damn well wants to be. He was "a sneaky, CC killmonster" when he was a Shadow Captain--he's not that anymore.
He's a Chapter Master. He has responsibilities he didn't before, and if he's the one we're getting Primarised? I can't imagine he'd be all "lemme get new claws bruh" when the previous Chapter Master was gunned down doing "sneaky, CC killmonster" stuff.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm totally down for Shrike getting Phobos gear. The new Eliminator Bolt Sniper Rifles are "Shrike Patterns" if I remember correctly...would be cool to see him get to be more of Corax's "ranged killer" side.
That would be fine for a new character or the other Shadow Captain from FW. Shrike is a sneaky, CC killmonster. I want Omnis pattern for him.
Shrike's whatever he damn well wants to be. He was "a sneaky, CC killmonster" when he was a Shadow Captain--he's not that anymore.
He's a Chapter Master. He has responsibilities he didn't before, and if he's the one we're getting Primarised? I can't imagine he'd be all "lemme get new claws bruh" when the previous Chapter Master was gunned down doing "sneaky, CC killmonster" stuff.
That is very true. If they make him a "cold sniper" type, it would be definitely jarring, but damn cool too. I wouldn't complain.
Crablezworth wrote: There are plenty of cool primaris models, but they're a mixed bag at best and the better models are dogged by the worst. Biggest problem of all is they just look awful next to normal marines, it detracts from both.
imho its the other way around for me.
its hard to look at old marine models next to primarus
that squatty potty look mate.
It's worth making the distinction between the sculpt and the concept of the design. Primaris certainly have better sculpts, but I still prefer the design of original marines. I would much rather have gotten updated sculpts of the old designs. Which i suppose we did for Chaos Marines, and they are easily one of the nicest kits GW has ever made. I do like Intercessors in general, but that's because they haven't changed much, whereas all the other Primaris are taking the designs in a new direction aesthetically.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: It's worth making the distinction between the sculpt and the concept of the design. Primaris certainly have better sculpts, but I still prefer the design of original marines. I would much rather have gotten updated sculpts of the old designs. Which i suppose we did for Chaos Marines, and they are easily one of the nicest kits GW has ever made. I do like Intercessors in general, but that's because they haven't changed much, whereas all the other Primaris are taking the designs in a new direction aesthetically.
I think Primaris Marines look great (for the most part - flying cannon guys are super dumb, and I don't like Reivers or Infiltrators much). My problem is that they just look like out of scale Marines to me.
It's a bit like the old FW Warboss on Bike. It didn't look like that to me. It looked like a 40mm (or more) Ork on a Bike. Everything was scaled up, rather than parts of the mini.
H.B.M.C. wrote: My problem is that they just look like out of scale Marines to me.
But if marines are supposed to be about seven feet tall then that's how big the models need to be compared to GWs normal humans in order to be scaled properly...
I would be very surprised if anyone else got custom tactics. This is a recycled idea from 4th edition and also no other army is marketed as having 1000 different chapters, nor does GW focus on sub factions of most armies. This will be a Marine only thing I bet
Umm you realize you just made case FOR spread? Custom chapter/regiment/whatever was heavily used in 4th ed besides marines?
Crablezworth wrote: There are plenty of cool primaris models, but they're a mixed bag at best and the better models are dogged by the worst. Biggest problem of all is they just look awful next to normal marines, it detracts from both.
imho its the other way around for me.
its hard to look at old marine models next to primarus
that squatty potty look mate.
It's worth making the distinction between the sculpt and the concept of the design. Primaris certainly have better sculpts, but I still prefer the design of original marines. I would much rather have gotten updated sculpts of the old designs. Which i suppose we did for Chaos Marines, and they are easily one of the nicest kits GW has ever made. I do like Intercessors in general, but that's because they haven't changed much, whereas all the other Primaris are taking the designs in a new direction aesthetically.
For me it's scale issue. Primaris are too tall to be marines of old fluff so no using them in armageddon campaign for example. They are off scale by head.
tneva82 wrote: For me it's scale issue. Primaris are too tall to be marines of old fluff so no using them in armageddon campaign for example. They are off scale by head.
No, they aren't off scale. Minimarines are the ones with the borked scale.
I'd argue it's the regular humans that are the borked scale, and that Marines are fine.
Anyway, it's not about being too tall. They don't look like taller Marines. They look like Marines on a different scale. Like they're Marines from a 32+mm game mixed in with 28mmh minis. That's what Crimson didn't seem to understand.
That's why I don't like them. It's not the aesthetics.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'd argue it's the regular humans that are the borked scale, and that Marines are fine.
Anyway, it's not about being too tall. They don't look like taller Marines. They look like Marines on a different scale. Like they're Marines from a 32+mm game mixed in with 28mmh minis. That's what Crimson didn't seem to understand.
That's why I don't like them. It's not the aesthetics.
You mean the regular humans and Eldar and Gaunts and Orks...
I like my Mk3-4 but lets not pretend Marines aren't off scale compared to literally everything else.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'd argue it's the regular humans that are the borked scale, and that Marines are fine.
Anyway, it's not about being too tall. They don't look like taller Marines. They look like Marines on a different scale. Like they're Marines from a 32+mm game mixed in with 28mmh minis. That's what Crimson didn't seem to understand.
That's why I don't like them. It's not the aesthetics.
Hm, the torso of primaris is basicly the same as old marines and the extra height is mostly better proportioned legs. Yet the heads are slightly bigger on primaris. Has anyone tried to put old helmets on primaris?
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'd argue it's the regular humans that are the borked scale, and that Marines are fine.
Anyway, it's not about being too tall. They don't look like taller Marines. They look like Marines on a different scale. Like they're Marines from a 32+mm game mixed in with 28mmh minis. That's what Crimson didn't seem to understand.
That's why I don't like them. It's not the aesthetics.
Hm, the torso of primaris is basicly the same as old marines and the extra height is mostly better proportioned legs. Yet the heads are slightly bigger on primaris. Has anyone tried to put old helmets on primaris?
yup, old heads (and shoulder pads) are entirely compatable. with the exception of beaky helms not fitting due to the gorget
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'd argue it's the regular humans that are the borked scale, and that Marines are fine.
Anyway, it's not about being too tall. They don't look like taller Marines. They look like Marines on a different scale. Like they're Marines from a 32+mm game mixed in with 28mmh minis. That's what Crimson didn't seem to understand.
That's why I don't like them. It's not the aesthetics.
Hm, the torso of primaris is basicly the same as old marines and the extra height is mostly better proportioned legs. Yet the heads are slightly bigger on primaris. Has anyone tried to put old helmets on primaris?
yup, old heads (and shoulder pads) are entirely compatable. with the exception of beaky helms not fitting due to the gorget
Can verify this for the chaos side of things.
Havocs are now slightly larger then primaris or csm and still can use old shoulderpads and arms.
Csm the new ones are 1:1 basic primaris size, sans Horns ofcourse.
Btw classic marines (especially the modern ones) look proper scaled next to models like steel legion, metal cadians or other metal guardsmen. They are like a head taller. However the current cadia range and catachan range look massive next to any of those models. That's what skewd the scales. I dont think marimes like odd next to orks, guardians etc.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: On the one hand, I hate that it has taken this long for GW to finally let me make a custom Chapter with proper tactics/relics/a Chapter Master.
But on the other hand...how soon can we expect absolutely broken combos with the new custom chapter tactics?
I figure we'll start hearing about broken combos in about a week
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: On the one hand, I hate that it has taken this long for GW to finally let me make a custom Chapter with proper tactics/relics/a Chapter Master.
But on the other hand...how soon can we expect absolutely broken combos with the new custom chapter tactics?
I figure we'll start hearing about broken combos in about a week
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: On the one hand, I hate that it has taken this long for GW to finally let me make a custom Chapter with proper tactics/relics/a Chapter Master.
But on the other hand...how soon can we expect absolutely broken combos with the new custom chapter tactics?
I figure we'll start hearing about broken combos in about a week
I bet after the first reviews hit on Saturday.
Considering GW and hints allready given, as soon as people have got views of the book.
Not a week, closer to 2 days maximum.
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Silver144 wrote: Those chapters tactics do not seems that strong, if the current point cost will stay the same.
Like 6+++ on 1w 13+pts model? Yeaaah, ok, 4pts guardsmans are still better. Like 3...4 wounds for the same cost.
Things become real when those doctrines will be revealed. +1 atk first round AND +1 rend army whide via doctrine, now we ate talking.
Solve the issue of scale creep and bad mission, transport and price balancing by throwing add on rules galore at the army with the issues isn't going to solve this in the long run imo.
As much as like to finally see fleshed out chapter etc, i doubt it will not lead to issues bigger then present.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: On the one hand, I hate that it has taken this long for GW to finally let me make a custom Chapter with proper tactics/relics/a Chapter Master.
But on the other hand...how soon can we expect absolutely broken combos with the new custom chapter tactics?
I figure we'll start hearing about broken combos in about a week
I bet after the first reviews hit on Saturday.
Considering GW and hints allready given, as soon as people have got views of the book.
Not a week, closer to 2 days maximum.
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Silver144 wrote: Those chapters tactics do not seems that strong, if the current point cost will stay the same.
Like 6+++ on 1w 13+pts model? Yeaaah, ok, 4pts guardsmans are still better. Like 3...4 wounds for the same cost.
Things become real when those doctrines will be revealed. +1 atk first round AND +1 rend army whide via doctrine, now we ate talking.
Solve the issue of scale creep and bad mission, transport and price balancing by throwing add on rules galore at the army with the issues isn't going to solve this in the long run imo.
As much as like to finally see fleshed out chapter etc, i doubt it will not lead to issues bigger then present.
I am totally agree with you. The rule bloat as patch to current problems is a bad way to solve the problems. Like instead this angel of death rule they could just add +1 atk to marine's profile. Much cleaner and novice friendly. The same with rend for bolter and close combat as attempt to patch hollow offence power of this "elite" army.
But fixing army via rule bloat is still better, than leaving it in the dust, so... I am pretty excited.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: On the one hand, I hate that it has taken this long for GW to finally let me make a custom Chapter with proper tactics/relics/a Chapter Master.
But on the other hand...how soon can we expect absolutely broken combos with the new custom chapter tactics?
I figure we'll start hearing about broken combos in about a week
I bet after the first reviews hit on Saturday.
Considering GW and hints allready given, as soon as people have got views of the book.
Not a week, closer to 2 days maximum.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Silver144 wrote: Those chapters tactics do not seems that strong, if the current point cost will stay the same.
Like 6+++ on 1w 13+pts model? Yeaaah, ok, 4pts guardsmans are still better. Like 3...4 wounds for the same cost.
Things become real when those doctrines will be revealed. +1 atk first round AND +1 rend army whide via doctrine, now we ate talking.
Solve the issue of scale creep and bad mission, transport and price balancing by throwing add on rules galore at the army with the issues isn't going to solve this in the long run imo.
As much as like to finally see fleshed out chapter etc, i doubt it will not lead to issues bigger then present.
I am totally agree with you. The rule bloat as patch to current problems is a bad way to solve the problems. Like instead this angel of death rule they could just add +1 atk to marine's profile. Much cleaner and novice friendly. The same with rend for bolter and close combat as attempt to patch hollow offence power of this "elite" army.
But fixing army via rule bloat is still better, than leaving it in the dust, so... I am pretty excited.
I am not, especially because the mirrored traits updates weren't in the CSM book if anything this will spawn a new arms race, and fwiw i doubt anyone will be happy when he sees any custom minmaxed chapter.
Also we are atm over 100 documents, it's also fair to assume that each of these supplements will require an FAQ, because well, GW.
Imo it feels like a last minue cashgrab attempt before the new edition comes out.
But maybee i am just to pesimistic or salty, i also would've rather seen a non marine update. Not to say that it wasn't deserved but GW kinda makes it difficult to start anything non CSM / SM with the update cycle.
Yep, this custom chapters probably will lead to min maxing subfaction. You want to have this "bolterdrill" CT on your veteran indominus intercessors, but this CT is useless for your lascannon devastators, so those will be in their own sub detachment with salamander's like reroll hit/wound CT. And then you want this repulsors , so new detachment with ignore damage table.
I really love how GW made my SW army without this subfaction bloat, just one CT for entire army.
I really love how GW made my SW army without this subfaction bloat, just one CT for entire army.
Some would argue that is because your entire SW codex IS subfaction bloat
You see, if GW would've just sarted with a SM book including the special chapters and then started releasing supplements we might never have been in this gutter place in the first place.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'd argue it's the regular humans that are the borked scale, and that Marines are fine.
Well, that ship sailed a long time ago.
Anyway, it's not about being too tall. They don't look like taller Marines. They look like Marines on a different scale. Like they're Marines from a 32+mm game mixed in with 28mmh minis. That's what Crimson didn't seem to understand.
I don't understand it because it makes zero sense. Things that are scaled properly in relation to their lore size look to be wrongly scaled to you... So they should intentionally scale things wrong to make them look right to you? Should ogryns be a size of a guardsmen so that they don't look like like models from a game using another scale to you? Does a Land Raider look to be wrongly scaled to you because it is bigger than Chimera? I really don't think it is feasible for GW to base their scaling on your random subjective feels on how much wrongly different models should be scaled to look right to you.
We’ve always known that the scale was screwed. Put some of the £6 three pack marines next to a plastic guardsman and tell me that that marine is seven feet tall.
If only there were a mark of armor compatible with a corvus helmet...
Indeed. I've been putting Corvus helms on my Phobos guys (along with a studded shoulder pad) and it looks great.
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NivlacSupreme wrote: We’ve always known that the scale was screwed. Put some of the £6 three pack marines next to a plastic guardsman and tell me that that marine is seven feet tall.
NivlacSupreme wrote: We’ve always known that the scale was screwed. Put some of the £6 three pack marines next to a plastic guardsman and tell me that that marine is seven feet tall.
And finally that has been fixed! Hallelujah!
Is that actually true? If Primaris were just embiggened Space Marines like many of us wanted, sure, their size relative to the current human size would be fixed.
But as I understand it Primaris are supposed to co-exist with normal Marines and are clearly a head taller while normal Marines are still as small or even smaller as normal humans.
Where's the fix? Does the background say they're the same 7ft tall as normal Marines instead of standing a head taller as the models suggest, and we'll just have to put up with the obsolete size of the old Marines until those kits are retired?
Yeah, Mk VII characters were one thing, but it will be really interesting to see what GW will do with iconic characters in other marks. EC with crusader helmet?
Sigh, with all the chapters getting Primaris characters now, it would be nice if Deathwatch got one too to show 'canon' DW primaris look...
Kanluwen wrote: I'm totally down for Shrike getting Phobos gear. The new Eliminator Bolt Sniper Rifles are "Shrike Patterns" if I remember correctly...would be cool to see him get to be more of Corax's "ranged killer" side.
That would be fine for a new character or the other Shadow Captain from FW. Shrike is a sneaky, CC killmonster. I want Omnis pattern for him.
Shrike's whatever he damn well wants to be. He was "a sneaky, CC killmonster" when he was a Shadow Captain--he's not that anymore.
He's a Chapter Master. He has responsibilities he didn't before, and if he's the one we're getting Primarised? I can't imagine he'd be all "lemme get new claws bruh" when the previous Chapter Master was gunned down doing "sneaky, CC killmonster" stuff.
Except there already is Raven Guard 'sniper' character archetype - Lias Issodon, chapter master of the Raptors. It's the Raptors who are about sneaking and sniping, Raven Guard always embodied the 'sneaking then bashing face' side of the chapter. Out of four Raven Guard captains we got so far, Severax, Shrike, Korvydae, Solaq, all of them were about getting in enemy face and smashing. Changing the theme of the chapter now would be as dumb as randomly destroying established identity by designating the Crimson Fists the 'screaming fanatics waving chainswords and running at enemy' chapter, when there is already iconic, beloved successor already doing it...
If only there were a mark of armor compatible with a corvus helmet...
Indeed. I've been putting Corvus helms on my Phobos guys (along with a studded shoulder pad) and it looks great.
You're adorable.
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Irbis wrote: Changing the theme of the chapter now would be as dumb as randomly destroying established identity by designating the Crimson Fists the 'screaming fanatics waving chainswords and running at enemy' chapter, when there is already iconic, beloved successor already doing it...
...or! ...or as dumb as randomly destroying the established setting by blowing up Cadia and bringing back primarchs from the dead and introducing a new line of space marines that are even more space mariney than the old space marines so that they make let everyone repurchase their entire space marine collection!
NivlacSupreme wrote: We’ve always known that the scale was screwed. Put some of the £6 three pack marines next to a plastic guardsman and tell me that that marine is seven feet tall.
And finally that has been fixed! Hallelujah!
Is that actually true? If Primaris were just embiggened Space Marines like many of us wanted, sure, their size relative to the current human size would be fixed.
But as I understand it Primaris are supposed to co-exist with normal Marines and are clearly a head taller while normal Marines are still as small or even smaller as normal humans.
Where's the fix? Does the background say they're the same 7ft tall as normal Marines instead of standing a head taller as the models suggest, and we'll just have to put up with the obsolete size of the old Marines until those kits are retired?
The other issue is while we all know the vehicle scale in 40k isn't the same as the models, they really do highlight the scale creep that has gone on as a number of kits transitioning from metal to plastic.
But it's also not just a marine issue it has always been a GW issue that bigger models are built on what feels like a sliding scale of the smaller the mini shouls be the bigger scale it's manufactured at ie guard at 32mm.
While vehicals scaled more than they shoild be and end up looking like 25mm scale.
NivlacSupreme wrote: We’ve always known that the scale was screwed. Put some of the £6 three pack marines next to a plastic guardsman and tell me that that marine is seven feet tall.
I always assumed because they are game pieces rather than scale models it wasn't a thing, i mean look at Monopoly, nobody ever complains that the dog and the boat are the wrong scale .
NivlacSupreme wrote: We’ve always known that the scale was screwed. Put some of the £6 three pack marines next to a plastic guardsman and tell me that that marine is seven feet tall.
I always assumed because they are game pieces rather than scale models it wasn't a thing, i mean look at Monopoly, nobody ever complains that the dog and the boat are the wrong scale .
...because it doesn't really matter there, whereas it does matter in wargames like 40K.
Warhammer 40,000 wrote:When the new edition of Codex: Space Marines is launched, there will be a free download covering the use of the new datasheets in other Space Marines armies, such as the Dark Angels.
This will cover units such as the Impulsor. This will not cover existing units such as Centurions, who will remain the preserve of armies drawn from Codex: Space Marines.
Speaking of the Space El Camino, how many points do you suppose it will cost? A similar loadout on a Razorback costs about 100 pts. I could see this thing costing about 125 pts provided it is 6 passengers.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: ...or! ...or as dumb as randomly destroying the established setting by blowing up Cadia and bringing back primarchs from the dead and introducing a new line of space marines that are even more space mariney than the old space marines so that they make let everyone repurchase their entire space marine collection!
Nice strawman you have got here, but there is 'slight' difference between finally starting logical progression (instead of having stupid 'frozen' M41 999 where characters and whole chapters were instantly teleporting across 20 warzones as it was the only year in which books were allowed to add new fluff) and completely reversing the direction in which iconic chapter was directed for last 25+ years. Also, returned from the dead? Wot? If anything, chaos primarchs sitting on their asses being completely useless for 10000 years was the comical stuff, not them finally being able to do something...
Whilst logically a space marine character of course could change his gear and even fighting style during his career, I assume they will keep the Primaris versions pretty close to their originals. Otherwise there is little reason to upgrade the existing characters instead of just creating new ones.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: ...or! ...or as dumb as randomly destroying the established setting by blowing up Cadia and bringing back primarchs from the dead and introducing a new line of space marines that are even more space mariney than the old space marines so that they make let everyone repurchase their entire space marine collection!
Nice strawman you have got here, but there is 'slight' difference between finally starting logical progression (instead of having stupid 'frozen' M41 999 where characters and whole chapters were instantly teleporting across 20 warzones as it was the only year in which books were allowed to add new fluff) and completely reversing the direction in which iconic chapter was directed for last 25+ years. Also, returned from the dead? Wot? If anything, chaos primarchs sitting on their asses being completely useless for 10000 years was the comical stuff, not them finally being able to do something...
Perturabo:,I hate the Emperor so damn much!
*Fulgrim throws a rock through his window*
Perturabo: Feth you Fulgrim! *thousand year long battle ensues*
casvalremdeikun wrote: Speaking of the Space El Camino, how many points do you suppose it will cost? A similar loadout on a Razorback costs about 100 pts. I could see this thing costing about 125 pts provided it is 6 passengers.
I'm personally hoping for just under 100pts with capacity 10, but that's seems unlikely. But if it only has capacity 5 and/or is more than 125pts, it's DOA for me.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: ...or! ...or as dumb as randomly destroying the established setting by blowing up Cadia and bringing back primarchs from the dead and introducing a new line of space marines that are even more space mariney than the old space marines so that they make let everyone repurchase their entire space marine collection!
Nice strawman you have got here, but there is 'slight' difference between finally starting logical progression (instead of having stupid 'frozen' M41 999 where characters and whole chapters were instantly teleporting across 20 warzones as it was the only year in which books were allowed to add new fluff) and completely reversing the direction in which iconic chapter was directed for last 25+ years. Also, returned from the dead? Wot? If anything, chaos primarchs sitting on their asses being completely useless for 10000 years was the comical stuff, not them finally being able to do something...
Uh, what? For the last 25 years the iconic backbone of your iconic chapters has been the iconic tactical squad. That's all going away now. They are literally replacing your iconic space marines wholesale with new "improved" space marines that have different equipment, different organizational structures, even different internal organs.
And you're fine with all that but you draw the line at giving Shrike a gun? Really?? Like, newsflash bro! Some things are going to change. Jump pack assault units are soo pre-primaris dude. Get with the program!
casvalremdeikun wrote: Speaking of the Space El Camino, how many points do you suppose it will cost? A similar loadout on a Razorback costs about 100 pts. I could see this thing costing about 125 pts provided it is 6 passengers.
I'm personally hoping for just under 100pts with capacity 10, but that's seems unlikely. But if it only has capacity 5 and/or is more than 125pts, it's DOA for me.
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I doubt it is 10 Marines, though I would be fine being wrong. I am just comparing it to the Razorback. Fly is a really good ability. I could see them charging a few points for it.
Fly is a good ability IF the vehicle has a use. Transporting random Primaris isn't exactly the same as if Khorne Berserkers could get this thing. It has a lot of S4 guns it seems, which could be cool but again the price is a huge issue.
Just look at the new admech vehicle. It has a ton of guns and costs less than a rhino (which is probably one of the worst vehicles tho), yes i know it doesnt have fly and thats why I mentioned a rhino as a price point.
FLY on a Razor back would be decent and worth points. Fly on a transport with just Heavy stubbers is meh.
The transport should either have no guns (maybe just a twin stubber or storm bolter) and be cheap, or actually have decent guns. But instead, it's looking like it's going to have a bunch of 'meh' guns, but pay for the privilege.
Kirasu wrote: Fly is a good ability IF the vehicle has a use. Transporting random Primaris isn't exactly the same as if Khorne Berserkers could get this thing. It has a lot of S4 guns it seems, which could be cool but again the price is a huge issue.
Just look at the new admech vehicle. It has a ton of guns and costs less than a rhino (which is probably one of the worst vehicles tho), yes i know it doesnt have fly and thats why I mentioned a rhino as a price point.
Very good point. But the Skorpius doesn't have Primaris Tax. Also, Fly helps prevent it from being surrounded so it can't be prevented from unloading its passengers.
Kirasu wrote: Fly is a good ability IF the vehicle has a use. Transporting random Primaris isn't exactly the same as if Khorne Berserkers could get this thing. It has a lot of S4 guns it seems, which could be cool but again the price is a huge issue.
Just look at the new admech vehicle. It has a ton of guns and costs less than a rhino (which is probably one of the worst vehicles tho), yes i know it doesnt have fly and thats why I mentioned a rhino as a price point.
Very good point. But the Skorpius doesn't have Primaris Tax. Also, Fly helps prevent it from being surrounded so it can't be prevented from unloading its passengers.
I'm pretty sure it would be prevented from unloading its passengers if it was (a) surrounded and destroyed, or (b) surrounded, and then it moved in the movement phase so it was no longer surrounded, because vehicles can't move and then disembark troops.
NivlacSupreme wrote: We’ve always known that the scale was screwed. Put some of the £6 three pack marines next to a plastic guardsman and tell me that that marine is seven feet tall.
I always assumed because they are game pieces rather than scale models it wasn't a thing, i mean look at Monopoly, nobody ever complains that the dog and the boat are the wrong scale .
...because it doesn't really matter there, whereas it does matter in wargames like 40K.
Nah, it's just another thing the community has found to moan about, they are little plastic space dudes fighting other little plastic space dudes, scale really isn't important, this is a world of make believe not accurate scale model making.
Obispudkenobi wrote: they are little plastic space dudes fighting other little plastic space dudes, scale really isn't important, this is a world of make believe not accurate scale model making.
I disagree, to a degree. This is a world of make believe where realism and accuracy aren't necessary, but it does need to feel right, or people get irritated. If it's too awkwardly proportioned or out of scale, then it definitely can matter, since many players will be irritated by the lame execution.
I’ve seen people are a bit unhappy with the “nerf” to Crimson Fists. I’m not sure it’s actually that bad, for two reasons.
Firstly, repulsors (and other vehicles, I guess) now get +1 to hit against units of 10 or more. To me, that is far more impactful than whether characters get +1 to hit all the time. Repulsors have many times more guns on them than characters do, and now a plasma executioner can overcharge without any worries against big units (though it probably doesn’t need to).
Second (and to be fair this is a much smaller benefit) it means there’s less need to go for MSU. There are some good reasons to want to run big units (e.g. Vigilus strats) and now a unit of 10 intercessors can get +1 to hit against a unit of 15, rather than 20.
The units that suffer from this change are really the 3-man squads like inceptors, aggressors and eliminators. But these guys gain a lot from having bolter drill built in all the time, so it’s really fine. Instead of getting a hit on a 2 they will get an extra hit on a 6, resulting in the same result – and they still hit on 2s against units of 8+.
Ultimately it means that adding one guy to a CF unit will now need the target unit to have one extra guy in to get your bonus, whereas in the old version every marine you added required two more in the target.
Also, I was part way through scratch-building a fire raptor. I might have to pick that up again. Those quad heavy bolters are looking very good right now. On the other hand I might just go for a brigade and get a load of guys on the board. Primaris might be good enough for that to be sensible now.
Eliminators became a must have. Impulsor is a razorback, stalker, whirlwind, all rolled into one. Depending on cost the new incursors seem great, same with the inviktor dread.
NivlacSupreme wrote: We’ve always known that the scale was screwed. Put some of the £6 three pack marines next to a plastic guardsman and tell me that that marine is seven feet tall.
I always assumed because they are game pieces rather than scale models it wasn't a thing, i mean look at Monopoly, nobody ever complains that the dog and the boat are the wrong scale .
...because it doesn't really matter there, whereas it does matter in wargames like 40K.
Nah, it's just another thing the community has found to moan about, they are little plastic space dudes fighting other little plastic space dudes, scale really isn't important, this is a world of make believe not accurate scale model making.
People have moaned about this since the days of Rogue Trader, in the past they typically stuck to historical wargames. I think its a valid thing to "moan about" when GW sells everything as a premium product. It might not matter to you but in the scale miniature hobbies the consistency and accuracy of scale are one of the major factors in the quality of the miniatures. Not everyone games, point of fact GW asserts about 60% of their customers never game at all. So the miniatures and their quality mean more to more people than its use as a game piece. I can understand why you might not have cared or noticed but it comes to the forefront now because GW did a major overhaul where scale and consistency, at least between different space marine units, was seriously considered. Within the Space Marines they "fixed" the scale and made them more humanly proportioned. Wanting to see that fix and the same consideration applied across the entire 40k range is reasonable.
Its splitting hairs, but I see a difference between moaning about what was done and what should be done; I think for me that's where I draw the line between worthwhile moaning and not. So its a case of how people parse this issue.
When it comes to Guardsmen, their scale is screwed up and it was done intentionally. One of the GW designers went on record saying when they produced the catachans and cadians they intentionally oversized them to make painting the eyes easier, given how many would have to be painted. At the same time we know what properly scaled guardsmen should look like, FW's are well scaled and proportioned relative to a space marine; GW proper had done these limited edition cadians standing 'at-ease' that were smaller than the plastics by properly scaled next to the space marines. So it could be done. GW just chooses not to and its really helped drive alot of business to 3rd party manufacturers.
there's a ton of other stuff in here. Doctrines that give you an extra -1 ap on your guns are pretty major, as an across-the-board ability.
And you can get out of an impulsor after it moves. It has a capacity of 6, so (if it can carry them) flamer aggressors might actually have a way to be useful now. Can't charge after this special disembark though.
It might be more useful for letting hellblasters rapid fire on turn 1. To be honest hellblasters couldn't have asked for a better transport than this - I guess unless it let them fire from onboard.
there's a ton of other stuff in here. Doctrines that give you an extra -1 ap on your guns are pretty major, as an across-the-board ability.
And you can get out of an impulsor after it moves. It has a capacity of 6, so (if it can carry them) flamer aggressors might actually have a way to be useful now. Can't charge after this special disembark though.
It might be more useful for letting hellblasters rapid fire on turn 1. To be honest hellblasters couldn't have asked for a better transport than this - I guess unless it let them fire from onboard.
Tactical doctrine hellblasters jump out of an Impulsor in rapid fire range.
Also Reivers might be good with the assault doctrine. Shoot with pistol and stab with extra ap
No access to doctrines, and no ability to take any of the new units.
I think those doctrines, and a combination of bunch of the other stuff are going to create a lot of unintended consequences. I feel like they've really given basic Space Marines so much with this codex that it makes hard to imagine the Non-codex marines can even come close to competing. Why play Deathwatch when there are a slew of rules that can get you pretty close to the same abilities and probably for less, while giving you a lot more options and flexibility?
No access to doctrines, and no ability to take any of the new units.
I think those doctrines, and a combination of bunch of the other stuff are going to create a lot of unintended consequences. I feel like they've really given basic Space Marines so much with this codex that it makes hard to imagine the Non-codex marines can even come close to competing. Why play Deathwatch when there are a slew of rules that can get you pretty close to the same abilities and probably for less, while giving you a lot more options and flexibility?
bullyboy wrote:
Dude, DW are specialists with their own abililties. They are still solid and one of the better marine armies. SS/SB with SIA still solid.
Did you ever consider for a moment that maybe I dont want to play nothing but shields and stormbolter gak? Or maybe I want to have Primaris on the table? This isnt even about competitive versus casual options as i cannot even play the units
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Not anymore. They got almost invalidated thanks to +3" range with 6+++ FNP guys that use Tactical Doctrine from turn 2 onwards...
The combinations one can put together with the new options make Deathwatch look like stodgy old caricatures of Ultramarines, bitching about how nobody follows the codex anymore.
bullyboy wrote:
Dude, DW are specialists with their own abililties. They are still solid and one of the better marine armies. SS/SB with SIA still solid.
Did you ever consider for a moment that maybe I dont want to play nothing but shields and stormbolter gak? Or maybe I want to have Primaris on the table?
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Not anymore. They got almost invalidated thanks to +3" range with 6+++ FNP guys that use Tactical Doctrine from turn 2 onwards...
The combinations one can put together with the new options make Deathwatch look like stodgy old caricatures of Ultramarines, bitching about how nobody follows the codex anymore.
Not only DW, every single non-codex Marine chapter got rekt
Two things:
1) I love that helmet. It’s very Robocop.
2) Why on Terra can they not make these guns that look exactly like old boltguns with scopes the same as boltguns? I’m surprised Primaris don’t have their own pattern of power sword.
Quite the deluge of abilities in this codex.
No know fear, bolter discipline, shock assault, 2 chapter traits (or two part traits) and doctrines.
That's... quite a lot. Curious if point costs will shift in response as marines are effectively fighting better at every range band, without touching their profile.
Imperial Fists strike me as this Codex's poster boys.
Lots of shots, bonus shots and even terminators are maxed out at a 4+ save vs bolt rifles.
Combat doctrines are so stupid: even more effectiveness against power armor and and nothing against light troops. Well.
Do vehicles benefits from combat doctrines at least ?
bullyboy wrote:
Dude, DW are specialists with their own abililties. They are still solid and one of the better marine armies. SS/SB with SIA still solid.
Did you ever consider for a moment that maybe I dont want to play nothing but shields and stormbolter gak? Or maybe I want to have Primaris on the table? This isnt even about competitive versus casual options as i cannot even play the units
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Not anymore. They got almost invalidated thanks to +3" range with 6+++ FNP guys that use Tactical Doctrine from turn 2 onwards...
The combinations one can put together with the new options make Deathwatch look like stodgy old caricatures of Ultramarines, bitching about how nobody follows the codex anymore.
Frag cannons still rock, we have Ultramarine ability with no -1 to hit, etc. Deathwatch are still solid. People are loving this new marine stuff, and rightly so, but points are still a thing.
Deathwatch cannot complain, we are fine.
godardc wrote: Combat doctrines are so stupid: even more effectiveness against power armor and and nothing against light troops. Well.
Do vehicles benefits from combat doctrines at least ?
Bolt rifles went from guardsmen saving on six to no save.
I was worried at first that they wouldn't go far enough with marine abilities. Now I'm worried that they've gone too far.
No real idea until we see the actual codex with prices and all of that but a lot of abilities are being added and I'm worried that even with all of the GW "testing" there are going to be some unintended OP combos that are going to give all the marine haters justification for their salt.
I don't like that the doctrines are tied to rounds (I'd love to be able to start with assault doctrine) but that could be handled by a strat or some other ability we don't know about. Outside of that small gripe I think it is a very fluffy and cool ability.
I really can't wait for the codex though. Although as a main SW, DA + DW player I'm feeling mad jealous right now.
Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?
If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.
Frag cannons still rock, we have Ultramarine ability with no -1 to hit, etc. Deathwatch are still solid. People are loving this new marine stuff, and rightly so, but points are still a thing.
Deathwatch cannot complain, we are fine.
You mean the points of everything Deathwatch being more expensive? Those points?
Or the fact that we're "fine" purely because of one specific wargear combination?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?
If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.
I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.
bullyboy wrote:
Dude, DW are specialists with their own abililties. They are still solid and one of the better marine armies. SS/SB with SIA still solid.
Did you ever consider for a moment that maybe I dont want to play nothing but shields and stormbolter gak? Or maybe I want to have Primaris on the table?
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Not anymore. They got almost invalidated thanks to +3" range with 6+++ FNP guys that use Tactical Doctrine from turn 2 onwards...
The combinations one can put together with the new options make Deathwatch look like stodgy old caricatures of Ultramarines, bitching about how nobody follows the codex anymore.
Not only DW, every single non-codex Marine chapter got rekt
bullyboy wrote:
Dude, DW are specialists with their own abililties. They are still solid and one of the better marine armies. SS/SB with SIA still solid.
Did you ever consider for a moment that maybe I dont want to play nothing but shields and stormbolter gak? Or maybe I want to have Primaris on the table? This isnt even about competitive versus casual options as i cannot even play the units
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Not anymore. They got almost invalidated thanks to +3" range with 6+++ FNP guys that use Tactical Doctrine from turn 2 onwards...
The combinations one can put together with the new options make Deathwatch look like stodgy old caricatures of Ultramarines, bitching about how nobody follows the codex anymore.
Frag cannons still rock, we have Ultramarine ability with no -1 to hit, etc. Deathwatch are still solid. People are loving this new marine stuff, and rightly so, but points are still a thing.
Deathwatch cannot complain, we are fine.
Frag Cannons are 25 frickin points. People mostly stopped using them for a reason.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?
If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.
I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.
I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.
Yeah, but within that army can you have a line battalion in one doctrine providing a base of fire, while a separate vanguard detachment is charging in wrecking face in the melee doctrine is I believe the question.?
Doctrines will make a big difference, as will all the new extra rules that Marines are getting. I think that GW may have gone a bit over the top with them... I know that Marines are meant it be the best if the best if the best. Just from a game mechanics point of view, adding this many special rules can break a system die to how it interplays with other rules and what not.
The new Primaris stuff continues to be dumb, tacking Marines from Knights in space into Tom Clancy spec ops types.
I'd have rather they introduced a new race that had all these gizmos... even than I have to wonder what this going to do to the Tau? It feels like Primaris Marines aren't just standing on their feet, but actively stomping on their feet (hooves).
Also, I think it is laughable that the new Dreadnought can unholster the heavy bolter pistol while in close combat, then holster it and smash with fist, then unholster it again to fire into the same close combat... meanwhile a Dreadnought with a storm bolter built in to the fist can't fire it into the same close combat. That is as dumb as not allowing a gorehound to roar while in close combat.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?
If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.
I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?
If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.
I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.
That makes me very happy.
Me too. We need more rules that give bonuses for single faction armies
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?
If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.
I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.
That makes me very happy.
Me too. We need more rules that give bonuses for single faction armies
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I'm honestly on the opposite side of the fence. There's no reason to push that, but I do like variety so I'm not too torn up about it.
I am shedding a tear for the poor GK's though. Likely to be totally forgotten again and now severely outclassed by their 'brothers'. Especially because GW said they will not be getting any Primaris.
Also, I think it is laughable that the new Dreadnought can unholster the heavy bolter pistol while in close combat, then holster it and smash with fist, then unholster it again to fire into the same close combat... meanwhile a Dreadnought with a storm bolter built in to the fist can't fire it into the same close combat. That is as dumb as not allowing a gorehound to roar while in close combat.
No access to doctrines, and no ability to take any of the new units.
I think those doctrines, and a combination of bunch of the other stuff are going to create a lot of unintended consequences. I feel like they've really given basic Space Marines so much with this codex that it makes hard to imagine the Non-codex marines can even come close to competing. Why play Deathwatch when there are a slew of rules that can get you pretty close to the same abilities and probably for less, while giving you a lot more options and flexibility?
Because you like the fluff?
It was meant rhetorically. I don't play competitively, but too often the "balance" of the game is thrown off when something like this comes along. I can accept point values and power levels are not perfect and still play and have fun. However if we pretend their is some theoretically perfect price and where the published point values deviate from that for whatever variety of reasons and as long as those values are within +/- X% it wont disrupt the game... extra rules without point costs and combinations of abilities really increase how often and to what degree this deviation occurs. Making the published point values more and more meaningless in relating the relative capabilities of units. If my unit is theoretically 10% over costed and my opponent brings a unit 10% undercosted... you have a 20% split and you're effectively playing 1800pt games against 2200pt opponents for a 2000pt game. Right now Deathwatch are like the 1800pt force while these new marine appear to be predisposed towards the latter.
If you think they went overboard with this book then imagine how the next ones for other factions are going to be. If you think crazy rules and supplements are gonna stop here then you're too naive, and tbh I'm kinda looking forward to it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?
If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.
I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.
That makes me very happy.
Me too. We need more rules that give bonuses for single faction armies
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I'm honestly on the opposite side of the fence. There's no reason to push that, but I do like variety so I'm not too torn up about it.
I am shedding a tear for the poor GK's though. Likely to be totally forgotten again and now severely outclassed by their 'brothers'. Especially because GW said they will not be getting any Primaris.
I’m sure you’re right, and that GKs will still be rubbish. It seems clear that GW has decided to essentially park them and not bring out any new models for the army, because it would be too difficult to make them whole new primaris kits. Deathwatch can just use the existing conversion kits so they get some primaris stuff.
Anyway on the plus side, nobody gains more from having +1A than GKs. They’ll be pretty choppy.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?
If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.
I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.
That makes me very happy.
Me too. We need more rules that give bonuses for single faction armies
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Yeah, I wish my Orks and Necrons also got some kind of bonus to compensate for their lack of soup benefits.
This is great stuff! It's the sorts of changes i've been saying marines needed to become viable for ages now. And it looks like Space Marines will now actually want to field Space Marines are their main units! The phobos based playstyle seems fun. Incursor + Impulsor mortal wounds build anyone? And eliminators will be very nasty anti tank, so people will need to start thinking about deep strikers or other such ways to stop them.
I am a bit miffed by the Assault Vehicle rule. This is just restoring things to how all vehicles worked in previous editions. All space marines need this back, especially rhinoes. And Land Raiders need their assault ramps back.
I think for combat doctrines you ought to be able to go straight from Devastator to Assault. Not being able to get the melee buff till turn 3 isn't good for melee based armies. Maybe there will be a strat or something.
Needless to say, the non-codex adherent chapters are going to need some new stuff to bring them up to this level. And of course Chaos will too. But now that GW has shown that they are willing to fix marines, I figure those others will follow at some point. Maybe Chaos will get proper Marks back or something.
Stus67 wrote: If you think they went overboard with this book then imagine how the next ones for other factions are going to be. If you think crazy rules and supplements are gonna stop here than you're too naive, and tbh I'm kinda looking forward to it.
Stus67 wrote: If you think they went overboard with this book then imagine how the next ones for other factions are going to be. If you think crazy rules and supplements are gonna stop here than you're too naive, and tbh I'm kinda looking forward to it.
We better get just as good rules for DIY CSM warbands...
Stus67 wrote: If you think they went overboard with this book then imagine how the next ones for other factions are going to be. If you think crazy rules and supplements are gonna stop here than you're too naive, and tbh I'm kinda looking forward to it.
We better get just as good rules for DIY CSM warbands...
Legion Tactics that are more than just -1 to Leadership and Reroll Morale.
Stus67 wrote: If you think they went overboard with this book then imagine how the next ones for other factions are going to be. If you think crazy rules and supplements are gonna stop here than you're too naive, and tbh I'm kinda looking forward to it.
We better get just as good rules for DIY CSM warbands...
Purge trait sans mark restriction.
Ohhh boy, i don't think we want that.
Stus67 wrote: If you think they went overboard with this book then imagine how the next ones for other factions are going to be. If you think crazy rules and supplements are gonna stop here than you're too naive, and tbh I'm kinda looking forward to it.
We better get just as good rules for DIY CSM warbands...
TBH renegades should've been handled in the base Vanilla codex in the first place with a consolidated Angels (as they can have successors go rogue) and then the Chaos Codex can focus on Legions instead of trying to be a catch all. Renegades as is don't make any sense.
Stus67 wrote: If you think they went overboard with this book then imagine how the next ones for other factions are going to be. If you think crazy rules and supplements are gonna stop here than you're too naive, and tbh I'm kinda looking forward to it.
We better get just as good rules for DIY CSM warbands...
Legion Tactics that are more than just -1 to Leadership and Reroll Morale.
I want legion special units instead. I WANT MY ALPHA LEGION AGENT!
Or a squad of WB dark crusaders.
etc.
Or rules that benefit from bigger squads since, well y know , chaos legions still fight in bigger squads?
Stus67 wrote: If you think they went overboard with this book then imagine how the next ones for other factions are going to be. If you think crazy rules and supplements are gonna stop here than you're too naive, and tbh I'm kinda looking forward to it.
We better get just as good rules for DIY CSM warbands...
TBH renegades should've been handled in the base Vanilla codex in the first place with a consolidated Angels (as they can have successors go rogue) and then the Chaos Codex can focus on Legions instead of trying to be a catch all. Renegades as is don't make any sense.
Meh, debatable but yeah could've worked, OR they could've sold us a supplement..... wait they did that allready hidden in vigilus
Stus67 wrote: If you think they went overboard with this book then imagine how the next ones for other factions are going to be. If you think crazy rules and supplements are gonna stop here than you're too naive, and tbh I'm kinda looking forward to it.
We better get just as good rules for DIY CSM warbands...
Legion Tactics that are more than just -1 to Leadership and Reroll Morale.
I want legion special units instead. I WANT MY ALPHA LEGION AGENT!
Or a squad of WB dark crusaders.
etc.
Or rules that benefit from bigger squads since, well y know , chaos legions still fight in bigger squads?
I am a bit miffed by the Assault Vehicle rule. This is just restoring things to how all vehicles worked in previous editions. All space marines need this back, especially rhinoes. And Land Raiders need their assault ramps back.
How do we know rhinos or land raiders won't get this assault vehicle rule?
They've already shown that they are modifying weapon profiles and datasheets. At this point I wouldn't rule anything out until we explicitly see otherwise.
Stus67 wrote: If you think they went overboard with this book then imagine how the next ones for other factions are going to be. If you think crazy rules and supplements are gonna stop here than you're too naive, and tbh I'm kinda looking forward to it.
We better get just as good rules for DIY CSM warbands...
Legion Tactics that are more than just -1 to Leadership and Reroll Morale.
I want legion special units instead. I WANT MY ALPHA LEGION AGENT!
Or a squad of WB dark crusaders.
etc.
Or rules that benefit from bigger squads since, well y know , chaos legions still fight in bigger squads?
All of the above?
Soon Legion book supplement. might even get some stuff over from 30k
But honestly, i'd still rather see a propper lost and the damned dex before that, but i am MAYBEE biased
Stus67 wrote: If you think they went overboard with this book then imagine how the next ones for other factions are going to be. If you think crazy rules and supplements are gonna stop here then you're too naive, and tbh I'm kinda looking forward to it.
Have you read the beta Sisters dex - it is nowhere near that.....maybe it will catch up to these improvements - having Order Tactics apply to vehicles as SM do will eb a good start.
The new Primaris stuff continues to be dumb, tacking Marines from Knights in space into Tom Clancy spec ops types.
Feel quite the opposite - especially when you look at gak like Centurions and non FW Marine flyers. Really like the newer stealthy Marines. Makes me want to start a fourth marine army Raven guard.....
bullyboy wrote:
Dude, DW are specialists with their own abililties. They are still solid and one of the better marine armies. SS/SB with SIA still solid.
Did you ever consider for a moment that maybe I dont want to play nothing but shields and stormbolter gak? Or maybe I want to have Primaris on the table?
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Not anymore. They got almost invalidated thanks to +3" range with 6+++ FNP guys that use Tactical Doctrine from turn 2 onwards...
The combinations one can put together with the new options make Deathwatch look like stodgy old caricatures of Ultramarines, bitching about how nobody follows the codex anymore.
Not only DW, every single non-codex Marine chapter got rekt
bullyboy wrote:
Dude, DW are specialists with their own abililties. They are still solid and one of the better marine armies. SS/SB with SIA still solid.
Did you ever consider for a moment that maybe I dont want to play nothing but shields and stormbolter gak? Or maybe I want to have Primaris on the table? This isnt even about competitive versus casual options as i cannot even play the units
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Not anymore. They got almost invalidated thanks to +3" range with 6+++ FNP guys that use Tactical Doctrine from turn 2 onwards...
The combinations one can put together with the new options make Deathwatch look like stodgy old caricatures of Ultramarines, bitching about how nobody follows the codex anymore.
Frag cannons still rock, we have Ultramarine ability with no -1 to hit, etc. Deathwatch are still solid. People are loving this new marine stuff, and rightly so, but points are still a thing.
Deathwatch cannot complain, we are fine.
Frag Cannons are 25 frickin points. People mostly stopped using them for a reason.
Which is a mistake IMHO. Use one in each of my sqds successfully for the cost of one additional veteran? People always follow other people (especially the loud ones), but I have yet to regret taking one in my sqds and they have often been big factors in games won. But sheeple prevail.
bullyboy wrote:
Dude, DW are specialists with their own abililties. They are still solid and one of the better marine armies. SS/SB with SIA still solid.
Did you ever consider for a moment that maybe I dont want to play nothing but shields and stormbolter gak? Or maybe I want to have Primaris on the table?
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Not anymore. They got almost invalidated thanks to +3" range with 6+++ FNP guys that use Tactical Doctrine from turn 2 onwards...
The combinations one can put together with the new options make Deathwatch look like stodgy old caricatures of Ultramarines, bitching about how nobody follows the codex anymore.
Not only DW, every single non-codex Marine chapter got rekt
bullyboy wrote:
Dude, DW are specialists with their own abililties. They are still solid and one of the better marine armies. SS/SB with SIA still solid.
Did you ever consider for a moment that maybe I dont want to play nothing but shields and stormbolter gak? Or maybe I want to have Primaris on the table? This isnt even about competitive versus casual options as i cannot even play the units
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Not anymore. They got almost invalidated thanks to +3" range with 6+++ FNP guys that use Tactical Doctrine from turn 2 onwards...
The combinations one can put together with the new options make Deathwatch look like stodgy old caricatures of Ultramarines, bitching about how nobody follows the codex anymore.
Frag cannons still rock, we have Ultramarine ability with no -1 to hit, etc. Deathwatch are still solid. People are loving this new marine stuff, and rightly so, but points are still a thing.
Deathwatch cannot complain, we are fine.
Frag Cannons are 25 frickin points. People mostly stopped using them for a reason.
Which is a mistake IMHO. Use one in each of my sqds successfully for the cost of one additional veteran? People always follow other people (especially the loud ones), but I have yet to regret taking one in my sqds and they have often been big factors in games won. But sheeple prevail.
Actually it's the cost of almost two Vets.
Also the whole "sheeple" or "L2P" or "it is how you use the units" or "netlist" etc. is stuff that does nothing to help your point. A model with a Frag Cannon is 39 points. On already expensive squads it eats into the cost of the army.
Quasistellar wrote: I'm not too surprised they didn't call out DW when listing new units.
I do hope they get combat doctrines at least. And the Impulsor would be an amazing addition to the DW.
I'd be surprised if Impulsors don't show up. Don't expect the warsuit though.
I'm not going to be too broken up about not getting doctrines. Its the lack of unit options that's infuriating as feth. Eliminators, Suppressors and to a lesser extent the Infiltrators would be massive infantry assets, while the Impulsor opens up a lot of mobility. Cold go either way on the Warsuit tbh, itd probably come down to points cost.
Which is a mistake IMHO. Use one in each of my sqds successfully for the cost of one additional veteran? People always follow other people (especially the loud ones), but I have yet to regret taking one in my sqds and they have often been big factors in games won. But sheeple prevail.
Oh look, you've devolved to the "you are a terrible player and suck" argument. That's so terribly persuasive.
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Crazyterran wrote: I'm honestly kind of shocked they didn't preview the Chaplain rules.
Gotta save stuff for the rest of the week. Psyker disciplines and strategems can only carry them so far.
I am shedding a tear for the poor GK's though. Likely to be totally forgotten again and now severely outclassed by their 'brothers'. Especially because GW said they will not be getting any Primaris.
With the Psychic Awakening event/campaign/whatever the heck its is on the horizon, I'd be surprised if an Imperial force that's entirely psychic didn't get some kind of attention.
Crazyterran wrote: I'm willing to bet UM will have stratagems that let them move back and forth on the Doctrines table, or even use two at once.
Mediocre trait, but...
You don't "move" on a table for Doctrines from the reading of it.
You start the game with Devastator Doctrine on.
At the start of any turn after the first turn, you then choose either of the other two Doctrines to use. Once you swap Doctrines though, that's it. You don't get to reuse it.
I'd imagine that the Supplements might actually bring a unique Doctrine for the Chapter, or that the named Chapter Masters/Captains might allow for you to have two of them active at a time--something like that.
Crazyterran wrote: I'm willing to bet UM will have stratagems that let them move back and forth on the Doctrines table, or even use two at once.
Mediocre trait, but...
You don't "move" on a table for Doctrines from the reading of it.
You start the game with Devastator Doctrine on.
At the start of any turn after the first turn, you then choose either of the other two Doctrines to use. Once you swap Doctrines though, that's it. You don't get to reuse it.
I'd imagine that the Supplements might actually bring a unique Doctrine for the Chapter, or that the named Chapter Masters/Captains might allow for you to have two of them active at a time--something like that.
That's not how it is presented in WH community :
Your Space Marines will begin the battle with the Devastator Doctrine active. At the start of any of your turns (after the first), you can choose to change from the Devastator Doctrine to the Tactical Doctrine, and again on a later turn, from the Tactical Doctrine to the Assault Doctrine.
Anyone else think that with the Devastator doctrine on the new Dreadnought ( war suit thing) that it will be able to clear a good few units away turn one? It gets to set up close to the enemy then move and use it’s guns with an extra ap on them both. One of which is auto hit with 2d6 st5 ap-2 shots and the other 6 st7 ap-2 shots
Your Space Marines will begin the battle with the Devastator Doctrine active. At the start of any of your turns (after the first), you can choose to change from the Devastator Doctrine to the Tactical Doctrine, and again on a later turn, from the Tactical Doctrine to the Assault Doctrine.
So it is sequential.
Yeah, I missed the bit about the sequential--but still. It isn't a table or anything like that--you choose to activate them or you can just leave it alone.
I wish I wasn't so dumb.
