xmbk wrote: Why can't mauls and axes be taken using index points?
it would be a perfectly fine House Rule.
Why does it have to be house ruled? Did I miss a FAQ ruling? Index can be used for models that don't have a codex entry. Use the codex for the unit, index for the maul/axe.
xmbk wrote: Why does it have to be house ruled? Did I miss a FAQ ruling? Index can be used for models that don't have a codex entry. Use the codex for the unit, index for the maul/axe.
Where is the "use index for stuff" thing written? Wanted to clarify how it works but couldn't remember where it is. I imagine it is supposed to be for units like rough riders that are not in the codex, no for stuff that has been updated in the codex. How else would they adjust OP things? Say power axes were super OP on Catachans, would they have no mechanism to remove it because they once said they could be taken? It gets worse when you think about applying rules such as the doctrines to entries written before the rules came out.
On another note, I just noticed that the demolisher cannon gets d6 shots at 5 models now. That makes it a lot more desirable. It is an expensive gun though. I'm tempted to take a 3xflamer demolisher and stick it with a tank commander in my outflanking Tallarn force. With the special Tallarn order, you can get the flamers in range from an outflank and burn everything.
malamis wrote: Had the pleasure of making one of our uber competitive players concede the end of turn 1 against mono cadia:
That in 2k I had 3 SHTs , one with quad sponsons and 3 manticores made me realise that i'll need to play index without an appointment. Without even trying, IG can straight up suck the fun out of the game :|
I too would concede turn 1, maybe not even before I deployed if I had to see that. I can't see how that army would ever be fun for the opposing side unless they specifically built against it. I would work on maybe not bringing three SHTs in a 2k game and maybe something a bit more casual if you are looking to increase fun levels.
My competetive bobby g list handled them fine one a board with proper cover. It’s a very swingy list. Can your opponent kill a Baneblade a turn? If not you’ll table them, if so, you’ll be tabled.
xmbk wrote: Why does it have to be house ruled? Did I miss a FAQ ruling? Index can be used for models that don't have a codex entry. Use the codex for the unit, index for the maul/axe.
Where is the "use index for stuff" thing written? Wanted to clarify how it works but couldn't remember where it is. I imagine it is supposed to be for units like rough riders that are not in the codex, no for stuff that has been updated in the codex. How else would they adjust OP things? Say power axes were super OP on Catachans, would they have no mechanism to remove it because they once said they could be taken? It gets worse when you think about applying rules such as the doctrines to entries written before the rules came out.
On another note, I just noticed that the demolisher cannon gets d6 shots at 5 models now. That makes it a lot more desirable. It is an expensive gun though. I'm tempted to take a 3xflamer demolisher and stick it with a tank commander in my outflanking Tallarn force. With the special Tallarn order, you can get the flamers in range from an outflank and burn everything.
xmbk wrote: Why can't mauls and axes be taken using index points?
it would be a perfectly fine House Rule.
Why does it have to be house ruled? Did I miss a FAQ ruling? Index can be used for models that don't have a codex entry. Use the codex for the unit, index for the maul/axe.
Not correct, index can be used for units that are not updated in the codex. You don't get to pick and choose which version you want based on availability of options etc. So currently any unit that has updated rules MUST use the codex meaning you cannot get axes and mauls on your units unless they are available on a unit like rough riders.
People continue to get this so wrong. Another example are demo charges, there gone, period. I don't get to ignore the more current codex entries in order to swap in wargear that is no longer available.
xmbk wrote: Why can't mauls and axes be taken using index points?
it would be a perfectly fine House Rule.
Why does it have to be house ruled? Did I miss a FAQ ruling? Index can be used for models that don't have a codex entry. Use the codex for the unit, index for the maul/axe.
Not correct, index can be used for units that are not updated in the codex. You don't get to pick and choose which version you want based on availability of options etc. So currently any unit that has updated rules MUST use the codex meaning you cannot get axes and mauls on your units unless they are available on a unit like rough riders.
People continue to get this so wrong. Another example are demo charges, there gone, period. I don't get to ignore the more current codex entries in order to swap in wargear that is no longer available.
Except that this is exactly how it works. How else would I field my las/plas razorback? Or my master of the forge with conversion beamer? The only caveat is that you use whichever rules are available in the codex and *then* add the index stuff. So if the base unit got a points hike, you cant just use the cost from the index. But options are fair game.
xmbk wrote: Why can't mauls and axes be taken using index points?
it would be a perfectly fine House Rule.
Why does it have to be house ruled? Did I miss a FAQ ruling? Index can be used for models that don't have a codex entry. Use the codex for the unit, index for the maul/axe.
Not correct, index can be used for units that are not updated in the codex. You don't get to pick and choose which version you want based on availability of options etc. So currently any unit that has updated rules MUST use the codex meaning you cannot get axes and mauls on your units unless they are available on a unit like rough riders.
People continue to get this so wrong. Another example are demo charges, there gone, period. I don't get to ignore the more current codex entries in order to swap in wargear that is no longer available.
The only power mauls are used by bullgryns or ogryn bodyguards.
However I really think it's poor form that special weapon teams lost demo charges as there is really very little point in special weapon teams.
I was also a fan of 2 flamers and a demo charge dropped from valkyrie.
It also dashes my hopes Marbo one day will return outside of shadowwar armeggedon.
Colonel Cross wrote: Hmm. Why the heck would they do that? I spent a ton of time and a bit of money finding mauls and axes I liked and converting my guys!
So you'd have to spend a ton of time and money finding swords and swords you liked and converting your dudes?
Why is no one excited about vostroya? 40 inch heavy bolters, and plasma cannons and 30 inch lasguns, plasma guns, grenade launchers, punishers, multi meltas, melta cannons, and demolishers.
5) If I have a unit of 3 Lemun Russes, and I reserve them that only counts as 1 unit right?
5) They still count as three single units.
I disagree, the squad rule very clearly states they are one unit until they are "first set up";. The outflank rules tells you to set up the units at the end of a movement phase. If the squad rule said they become seperate units when deployed it would be less clear, but as it stands, you can spend 3 cp and outflank 9 leman russ tanks as 3 units. You could then bring them on unit by unit, and would have to follow the squad rule which dictates how close they have to be when you set them up, in addition to the outflank rules description. Then they become separate units and you may profit from the look on your opponents face as you eat his army.
gungo wrote: ...there is really very little point in special weapon teams.
Actually I think they have a more important place in the new book. With the limit on command squads and the addition of doctrines, SWSs are one way to get lots of doctrine special weapons. I can see them being decent in a Tallarn list for getting outflanking melta/plasma. I know that you can easily unlock more command squads by getting officers, but that is not the best idea in all lists, and has disadvantages.
Also a BS 4+ Guardsman with plasma gun is 11 points, and a BS 3+ Vet with the same is 19 points, so you can get almost double the number. Obviously you have to pay for ablative wounds in your SWS but even then, they are possibly more points efficient, with delivery and ordering being the only concerns.
jamesterjlrb wrote: Also a BS 4+ Guardsman with plasma gun is 11 points, and a BS 3+ Vet with the same is 19 points, so you can get almost double the number. Obviously you have to pay for ablative wounds in your SWS but even then, they are possibly more points efficient, with delivery and ordering being the only concerns.
Its a weird day when theres actually a point to SWS's and its not demo charges.
Absolutely sucks for vets though, theres almost no point in them now that stormtroopers are so good and SWS's spam weapons better. Vet squads arent even more survivable or anything either compared to equal points SWS. Command squads are easy to soam too since you get one for every cimmander you take.
Without doctrines and counting as elites what exactly is the point of vets now? BS+3 guardsmen and thats it? Theyre not even troops for objective secured.
jamesterjlrb wrote: Also a BS 4+ Guardsman with plasma gun is 11 points, and a BS 3+ Vet with the same is 19 points, so you can get almost double the number. Obviously you have to pay for ablative wounds in your SWS but even then, they are possibly more points efficient, with delivery and ordering being the only concerns.
Its a weird day when theres actually a point to SWS's and its not demo charges.
Absolutely sucks for vets though, theres almost no point in them now that stormtroopers are so good and SWS's spam weapons better. Vet squads arent even more survivable or anything either compared to equal points SWS. Command squads are easy to soam too since you get one for every cimmander you take.
Without doctrines and counting as elites what exactly is the point of vets now? BS+3 guardsmen and thats it? Theyre not even troops for objective secured.
Do you think making plasmaguns twice the price for all BS3+ models was a mistake?
It seems like it brought Scions into line but hamstrung the already-struggling Veterans in the process.
Perhaps *only* Scions should be paying extra for their plasmaguns.
jamesterjlrb wrote: Also a BS 4+ Guardsman with plasma gun is 11 points, and a BS 3+ Vet with the same is 19 points, so you can get almost double the number. Obviously you have to pay for ablative wounds in your SWS but even then, they are possibly more points efficient, with delivery and ordering being the only concerns.
It's very close. A plasma command squad pays 28.125 points per hit at 24", while a special weapons squad pays 30. But the command squad is doing 78% more damage total and so is a much better use of most buffs. I've been toying with either 2 command squads and 2 SWSs or just 4 command squads in two Valkyries.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Without doctrines and counting as elites what exactly is the point of vets now? BS+3 guardsmen and thats it? Theyre not even troops for objective secured.
The entire point of elites is because they get regimental doctrines (although I guess you meant the old carapace-style ones). They are the units that you want to use many of the doctrines and stratagems on. For instance, they make good mechanised units on an Armageddon list, as you get a lot more firepower for your 1cp ability when dismounting. They are the the unit you want to give the Mordian's exploding 6s through Volley Fire. Personally, I am thinking that outflanking a unit of Tallarn shotgun meltavets can work really well. Order them to move move move to get them inside 6" in the shooting phase, and the doctrine lets you shoot your guns with no penalty.
Veterans seem in a much better place than they were in the index, as they are no longer just "worse scions". The regimental doctrines, orders and stratagems open up a whole load more possibilities and they are one of the better units to do crazy buffs on. Sure, command squads can do a similar thing but you are losing all of your ablative wounds if you go that route, as well as the extra firepower that lasguns/shotguns give.
jamesterjlrb wrote: Also a BS 4+ Guardsman with plasma gun is 11 points, and a BS 3+ Vet with the same is 19 points, so you can get almost double the number. Obviously you have to pay for ablative wounds in your SWS but even then, they are possibly more points efficient, with delivery and ordering being the only concerns.
It's very close. A plasma command squad pays 28.125 points per hit at 24", while a special weapons squad pays 30. But the command squad is doing 78% more damage total and so is a much better use of most buffs. I've been toying with either 2 command squads and 2 SWSs or just 4 command squads in two Valkyries.
Have you taken into account the 20 points for an officer (think platoon commander is cheapest) in order to take the command squad? As for veteran squads, I guess the one advantage that springs to mind is the ability to take voxcasters for spreading out and staying in order range, or fire on my position shenanigans.
Have you taken into account the 20 points for an officer (think platoon commander is cheapest) in order to take the command squad? As for veteran squads, I guess the one advantage that springs to mind is the ability to take voxcasters for spreading out and staying in order range, or fire on my position shenanigans.
No, I'm just looking at the units themselves. You probably want at least one company commander per pair of plasma squads regardless, and so with the sort of setup I describe it probably makes sense to run 4 command squads if you have a use for two more commanders anywhere else.
Thinking about it, I guess you don't particularly want commanders for suicide SWSs. They more-or-less make their points back in a single volley against many vehicles, and it's not actually worth it, damage-wise, to pay 15 points for half a commander to order them to re-roll 1s. You'll just probably lose 1 of the plasma gunners when they shoot, but whatever.
I'm really just looking for interesting ways to use Valkyries. I like Vostroyan or Armageddon plasma squads for them. Crusaders also look great. I'm looking at 2 Valkyries full of plasma guns and then 1 with Crusaders and an Astropath. The plasma gunners have like a 45-48" effective rapid-fire range even if the Valkyrie only moves 20", and the Crusaders can get 30" from your deployment zone and then charge with a 2++ from the Astropath.
gungo wrote: ...there is really very little point in special weapon teams.
Actually I think they have a more important place in the new book. With the limit on command squads and the addition of doctrines, SWSs are one way to get lots of doctrine special weapons. I can see them being decent in a Tallarn list for getting outflanking melta/plasma. I know that you can easily unlock more command squads by getting officers, but that is not the best idea in all lists, and has disadvantages.
Guard players are acting like this is a great codex when it has bad internal balance in the current codex.
Command squads are what SWS should be.
Vets should be troops and scions should be elites outside of a pure MT detachment.
You really don't need to spam sws becuase you should have enough command squads for any type of deepstrike, Valkyrie, infiltrating. Type shenanigans furthermore what you are talking about w tallarn is better performed by a 3+ shooting unit like vets since it's a pure glass cannon role.
SWS really should have kept demo charges and had that role still as minuscule as it was.
jamesterjlrb wrote: Also a BS 4+ Guardsman with plasma gun is 11 points, and a BS 3+ Vet with the same is 19 points, so you can get almost double the number. Obviously you have to pay for ablative wounds in your SWS but even then, they are possibly more points efficient, with delivery and ordering being the only concerns.
Its a weird day when theres actually a point to SWS's and its not demo charges.
Absolutely sucks for vets though, theres almost no point in them now that stormtroopers are so good and SWS's spam weapons better. Vet squads arent even more survivable or anything either compared to equal points SWS. Command squads are easy to soam too since you get one for every cimmander you take.
Without doctrines and counting as elites what exactly is the point of vets now? BS+3 guardsmen and thats it? Theyre not even troops for objective secured.
Do you think making plasmaguns twice the price for all BS3+ models was a mistake?
It seems like it brought Scions into line but hamstrung the already-struggling Veterans in the process.
Perhaps *only* Scions should be paying extra for their plasmaguns.
No scions should never have been troops in astra militarum detachments.
They are rare.
Where IG vets are one of the billion of troopers who survived a campaign.
No scions should never have been troops in astra militarum detachments.
I agree.
However, this doesn't actually solve the problem. Vets are still going to be competing with Scions (who have better delivery) and SWSs (which are far more efficient).
I think Vets and SWSs need to be troops, Scions should be elites, and Vets shouldn't be paying twice as much as other infantry for their plasmaguns.
While we are talking about this I think Platoon Commanders should have been an HQ OR Elite option, its crazy from a fluff perspective that to fulfill HQ tax your filling out with multiple Company Commanders, they are the same power cost but Company has 1 extra wound and 1 extra order for a 1/3rd point cost increase.
Its particularly galling as two HQ options are Cadian Exclusive and 1 Catachan and both Yarrick and Tank Commander are quite expensive/unique). The alternate is you for some reason are hosting a Primaris Psyker convention.
...
I am just bitter as I am having to squeeze 3 more HQ's in to form a supreme command detachment so that my Superheavy can access regimental doctrines while at the same time Command Squad requires 1 to 1 officer of same regiment within the same detachment and I cant have more than 50% non regiment within a detachment.
WatcherZero wrote: While we are talking about this I think Platoon Commanders should have been an HQ OR Elite option, its crazy from a fluff perspective that to fulfill HQ tax your filling out with multiple Company Commanders, they are the same power cost but Company has 1 extra wound and 1 extra order for a 1/3rd point cost increase.
I think having Platoon Commanders as Elites is fine. If anything, you'd expect them to be troops (since they used to be part of Infantry Platoons).
The issue is that they really should be 15pts. As it stands, Company Commanders are just far better value.
Honestly, what I'd like to see is a more expensive HQ (but a generic one, not a special character). Some sort of Supreme Commander who'd outrank Company Commanders.
The issue for me is that Company Commanders are very useful and I like that they're cheap, but there's also basically nothing to them. You're basically buying two extra Orders per turn for your army, which happen to come with a free model. It would be nice to have an HQ that could offer a little more of, well, anything really. Maybe slightly better stats or some extra wargear, or really anything that would set him apart from the dime-a-dozen Company Commanders.
(And yes, I know that there are Lord Commissars, but they serve a different role and can't be from any of the regiments.)
Speaking of SWS and CCS, I was brainstorming a steel legion list to take advantage of the 15 point cost reduction for the taurox.
The taurox w/2 autocannons is now 70 while a heavy bolter chimera is 91. That's basically a 20 point difference. The biggest downside is 10 man capacity so you can't fit a commander in there to throw the mount up order. And if you're not mounting up, what's the point of playing steel legion anyway? So the next logical step? Either sws or ccs. 6 and 4 men respectively. Steel legion weapons rapid fire at 18" so it seems like a good idea to do that with plasma. But plasma on CCS is BS4 so it's really expensive. 72 ccs plasma squad vs 52 sws plasma squad to be exact. You can fit 2 CCS squads + company commander in a taurox, but that feels like way too many eggs in one basket (244 point taurox). So maybe 1 CCS with a platoon commander because you'll only need one order? That's 162 points per taurox. But they're not even troops. And should you be taking lots of lasguns and not focusing so much on special weapons with steel legion? I don't friggin' know. Is mechanizing infantry even at all possible nowadays? Or is thinking about this pointless because I'd be gimping myself?
ThePorcupine wrote: Speaking of SWS and CCS, I was brainstorming a steel legion list to take advantage of the 15 point cost reduction for the taurox.
The taurox w/2 autocannons is now 70 while a heavy bolter chimera is 91. That's basically a 20 point difference. The biggest downside is 10 man capacity so you can't fit a commander in there to throw the mount up order. And if you're not mounting up, what's the point of playing steel legion anyway? So the next logical step? Either sws or ccs. 6 and 4 men respectively. Steel legion weapons rapid fire at 18" so it seems like a good idea to do that with plasma. But plasma on CCS is BS4 so it's really expensive. 72 ccs plasma squad vs 52 sws plasma squad to be exact. You can fit 2 CCS squads + company commander in a taurox, but that feels like way too many eggs in one basket (244 point taurox). So maybe 1 CCS with a platoon commander because you'll only need one order? That's 162 points per taurox. But they're not even troops. And should you be taking lots of lasguns and not focusing so much on special weapons with steel legion? I don't friggin' know. Is mechanizing infantry even at all possible nowadays? Or is thinking about this pointless because I'd be gimping myself?
I'd appreciate some thoughts.
Another option is to add a vox caster to that 10 man squad to give you access to orders. The benefit of using an infantry squad instead of the elite choices is the obsec, and if you have that much mobility and protection available, then I imagine they probably would be best used by rushing to objectives and holding the enemy at range. If you want suicide plasma, I think Scions deepstriking is still the best way to go, no?
I dunno. Maybe. I'm just trying to come up with a "good" steel legion list. Everyone and their grandmother has a cadian or a catachan list. It's not hard to make them competitive. The more obscure regiments though?
When I first read the steel legion order and stratagem I thought they were trash. Shoot and embark seems great until you read that you can't do it if you disembarked. Then.. what's.. the point? As soon as you come out, you're left in the open for a turn and you can kiss your squad goodbye. And 1CP to reroll 1s for a squad coming out of a transport? What, you mean like the order? That's free?
But I'm trying to not be so negative. There has to be SOME way to make mechanized guard viable. That's steel legion's whole thing!
xmbk wrote: Why can't mauls and axes be taken using index points?
it would be a perfectly fine House Rule.
Why does it have to be house ruled? Did I miss a FAQ ruling? Index can be used for models that don't have a codex entry. Use the codex for the unit, index for the maul/axe.
Not correct, index can be used for units that are not updated in the codex. You don't get to pick and choose which version you want based on availability of options etc. So currently any unit that has updated rules MUST use the codex meaning you cannot get axes and mauls on your units unless they are available on a unit like rough riders.
People continue to get this so wrong. Another example are demo charges, there gone, period. I don't get to ignore the more current codex entries in order to swap in wargear that is no longer available.
Except that this is exactly how it works. How else would I field my las/plas razorback? Or my master of the forge with conversion beamer? The only caveat is that you use whichever rules are available in the codex and *then* add the index stuff. So if the base unit got a points hike, you cant just use the cost from the index. But options are fair game.
I know how it is worded, which is like garbage. But it's fairly obvious when you look at the examples they cite that they are referring more so to single models like vehicles and characters on bikes or cavalry mounts that are missing entirely from the codex. Notice power axes and mauls are not missing from any of the models in questions entry but from the wargear list from the front page? That should have been a dead giveaway.
That being said I can see how people could enterpret it that way, but I think it's a mistake and also gamey. Name me one model GW sold for guard that had a power maul. On that note the only model I can think of with an axe was a commissar from 2nd ed that also had a hand flamer so I wouldn't even count that guy. The have always made them with fists, power swords or chainswords. If power mauls/axes didn't give an edge no one would care.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Colonel Cross wrote: Hmm. Why the heck would they do that? I spent a ton of time and a bit of money finding mauls and axes I liked and converting my guys!
If they only have power swords as an option then it's no big deal just count them all as power swords. It's hardly an issue for wysiwyg if they all are armed with them, it's just aesthetics.
jamesterjlrb wrote: Also a BS 4+ Guardsman with plasma gun is 11 points, and a BS 3+ Vet with the same is 19 points, so you can get almost double the number. Obviously you have to pay for ablative wounds in your SWS but even then, they are possibly more points efficient, with delivery and ordering being the only concerns.
Its a weird day when theres actually a point to SWS's and its not demo charges.
Absolutely sucks for vets though, theres almost no point in them now that stormtroopers are so good and SWS's spam weapons better. Vet squads arent even more survivable or anything either compared to equal points SWS. Command squads are easy to soam too since you get one for every cimmander you take.
Without doctrines and counting as elites what exactly is the point of vets now? BS+3 guardsmen and thats it? Theyre not even troops for objective secured.
Do you think making plasmaguns twice the price for all BS3+ models was a mistake?
It seems like it brought Scions into line but hamstrung the already-struggling Veterans in the process.
Perhaps *only* Scions should be paying extra for their plasmaguns.
They went about it in the most idiotic way imaginable. Gear should not costs different amounts, the unit entries should. No idea why they didn't just increase the base cost on storm troopers. Its so much cleaner.
Have you taken into account the 20 points for an officer (think platoon commander is cheapest) in order to take the command squad? As for veteran squads, I guess the one advantage that springs to mind is the ability to take voxcasters for spreading out and staying in order range, or fire on my position shenanigans.
No, I'm just looking at the units themselves. You probably want at least one company commander per pair of plasma squads regardless, and so with the sort of setup I describe it probably makes sense to run 4 command squads if you have a use for two more commanders anywhere else.
Thinking about it, I guess you don't particularly want commanders for suicide SWSs. They more-or-less make their points back in a single volley against many vehicles, and it's not actually worth it, damage-wise, to pay 15 points for half a commander to order them to re-roll 1s. You'll just probably lose 1 of the plasma gunners when they shoot, but whatever.
I'm really just looking for interesting ways to use Valkyries. I like Vostroyan or Armageddon plasma squads for them. Crusaders also look great. I'm looking at 2 Valkyries full of plasma guns and then 1 with Crusaders and an Astropath. The plasma gunners have like a 45-48" effective rapid-fire range even if the Valkyrie only moves 20", and the Crusaders can get 30" from your deployment zone and then charge with a 2++ from the Astropath.
I am also toying with valkyries, they are so damned good right now. Dropping in mordian command squads gives you the chance to execute enemy characters, while catachan has some beat stick characters that can charge out. Also don't forget, if you move in hover mode you can also assault something to tie it down lol.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Without doctrines and counting as elites what exactly is the point of vets now? BS+3 guardsmen and thats it? Theyre not even troops for objective secured.
The entire point of elites is because they get regimental doctrines (although I guess you meant the old carapace-style ones). They are the units that you want to use many of the doctrines and stratagems on. For instance, they make good mechanised units on an Armageddon list, as you get a lot more firepower for your 1cp ability when dismounting. They are the the unit you want to give the Mordian's exploding 6s through Volley Fire. Personally, I am thinking that outflanking a unit of Tallarn shotgun meltavets can work really well. Order them to move move move to get them inside 6" in the shooting phase, and the doctrine lets you shoot your guns with no penalty.
Veterans seem in a much better place than they were in the index, as they are no longer just "worse scions". The regimental doctrines, orders and stratagems open up a whole load more possibilities and they are one of the better units to do crazy buffs on. Sure, command squads can do a similar thing but you are losing all of your ablative wounds if you go that route, as well as the extra firepower that lasguns/shotguns give.
ah ok, i havent been able to pick up the codex yet (store got screwed with their order) so I havent been able to see every new interaction the codex has
MrMoustaffa wrote: ah ok, i havent been able to pick up the codex yet (store got screwed with their order) so I havent been able to see every new interaction the codex has
yeah I'm still digesting it too. For instance, I think MMM stops you firing at all, not just because you advanced. May need to rethink my flanking meltavets. I was looking forward to getting them within 6". I guess I can still do Get Around Behind Them on a flamer demolisher though.
ThePorcupine wrote: I dunno. Maybe. I'm just trying to come up with a "good" steel legion list. Everyone and their grandmother has a cadian or a catachan list. It's not hard to make them competitive. The more obscure regiments though?
When I first read the steel legion order and stratagem I thought they were trash. Shoot and embark seems great until you read that you can't do it if you disembarked. Then.. what's.. the point? As soon as you come out, you're left in the open for a turn and you can kiss your squad goodbye. And 1CP to reroll 1s for a squad coming out of a transport? What, you mean like the order? That's free?
But I'm trying to not be so negative. There has to be SOME way to make mechanized guard viable. That's steel legion's whole thing!
Steel legion got hosed though, even vostroya is better at what they do IMO. Sure your double tap is 3" shorter but your max range is 6" longer and meanwhile all your heavies also benefit. The steel legion order is just awful since you can't jump out, shoot , then reenter in the same turn so why bother wasting your energy trying to synergize that order. Just play vostroya and pack either 4 command squads into a chimera or two into a taurox.
Honestly though, best transport we have by far is the valkyrie. it starts the game with -1 to hit it and you can nightshroud it for -2 when you need another turn to get somewhere, or wait on your enemy to move first, heck if you wanted you can put another psycher into it (astropath?) and drop him solo on a later turn to night shroud it again.
Either way I don't care for steel legion, i think they may be the worst doctrine and order.
No scions should never have been troops in astra militarum detachments.
I agree.
However, this doesn't actually solve the problem. Vets are still going to be competing with Scions (who have better delivery) and SWSs (which are far more efficient).
I think Vets and SWSs need to be troops, Scions should be elites, and Vets shouldn't be paying twice as much as other infantry for their plasmaguns.
The only really bad thing about plasma gun was the fact how it works with deepstrike at 9in makes it the ideal range. Had melta worked at 9+in or flamers worked at 9+in we wouldn't have the issue with plasma being so good for the cost.
However while I agree vets should be paying 7pts for plasma to make them situationslly better then scions. That would only further makes special weapon teams even more redundant.
Special weapon teams should be 3 models with access to 3x flamers, demo charges, grenade launchers, sniper rifles and melta. this way guard can have calm dropped melta, valk dropped flamer/demo teams, and sniper teams again.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Without doctrines and counting as elites what exactly is the point of vets now? BS+3 guardsmen and thats it? Theyre not even troops for objective secured.
The entire point of elites is because they get regimental doctrines (although I guess you meant the old carapace-style ones). They are the units that you want to use many of the doctrines and stratagems on. For instance, they make good mechanised units on an Armageddon list, as you get a lot more firepower for your 1cp ability when dismounting. They are the the unit you want to give the Mordian's exploding 6s through Volley Fire. Personally, I am thinking that outflanking a unit of Tallarn shotgun meltavets can work really well. Order them to move move move to get them inside 6" in the shooting phase, and the doctrine lets you shoot your guns with no penalty.
Veterans seem in a much better place than they were in the index, as they are no longer just "worse scions". The regimental doctrines, orders and stratagems open up a whole load more possibilities and they are one of the better units to do crazy buffs on. Sure, command squads can do a similar thing but you are losing all of your ablative wounds if you go that route, as well as the extra firepower that lasguns/shotguns give.
ah ok, i havent been able to pick up the codex yet (store got screwed with their order) so I havent been able to see every new interaction the codex has
Also I think people are placing more weight on the move to elites then it's worth. Obsec isn't that big a deal in general, let alone on a small squishy unit like vets. From all my games in 8th it seems way more worthwhile to focus on either durability or damage. Conscripts are by far are most durable unit and incidentally come with obsec anyway. If your using anything else you are trying to maximize your killing potential. I mean, I hardly ever have obsec on storm troopers matter. They drop in, cream something then get shot off the table or assaulted to death. When they drop in due to the way the rules for deepstrikers are written obsec doesn't even matter. If they live it generally means I am wasting the other player already anyway.
No scions should never have been troops in astra militarum detachments.
I agree.
However, this doesn't actually solve the problem. Vets are still going to be competing with Scions (who have better delivery) and SWSs (which are far more efficient).
I think Vets and SWSs need to be troops, Scions should be elites, and Vets shouldn't be paying twice as much as other infantry for their plasmaguns.
The only really bad thing about plasma gun was the fact how it works with deepstrike at 9in makes it the ideal range. Had melta worked at 9+in or flamers worked at 9+in we wouldn't have the issue with plasma being so good for the cost.
However while I agree vets should be paying 7pts for plasma to make them situationslly better then scions. That would only further makes special weapon teams even more redundant.
Special weapon teams should be 3 models with access to 3x flamers, demo charges, grenade launchers, sniper rifles and melta. this way guard can have calm dropped melta, valk dropped flamer/demo teams, and sniper teams again.
3 model units would be just as silly though, all you would see would be transports packed with flamers and vets would be overlooked again anyway. I think 6 man units is fine, but they definitely needed some other incentive. Demo charges would have kept them as an option but maybe giving them access to 3 heavy flamers would have made them distinct enough as well. IDK maybe the best use for them is to combine them with other infantry.
KommissarKiln wrote: So, it looks like if I add a fortification to my list, I must either pay a CP for an auxiliary or lose my regimental doctrine?
I guess that Firestorm Redoubt I received a while back is getting put away
Nothing at all changed about how you would go about including a fortification in your list, fortifications will never prevent your other units from getting doctrines, and you can't bring a fortification in an auxiliary support detachment anyway.
Regarding Veterans and SWSs, I think one big issue is that we have a lot of units performing near-identical roles.
For example, if we want to spam special weapons, we've got:
- Veterans
- Command Squads
- SWSs
- Scions
- Scion Command Squads
Now, we can perhaps separate Scions due to their delivery method, but that still leaves us with 3 units that can spam special weapons. This also leaves us with 3 Elite Choices (though why exactly the SWS is an Elite choice continues to baffle me).
What's more, none of these units have any special rules or such to distinguish them.
ThePorcupine wrote: When I first read the steel legion order and stratagem I thought they were trash. Shoot and embark seems great until you read that you can't do it if you disembarked. Then.. what's.. the point? As soon as you come out, you're left in the open for a turn and you can kiss your squad goodbye. And 1CP to reroll 1s for a squad coming out of a transport? What, you mean like the order? That's free?
As an avid Steel Legion fan myself, I have to admit... Steel Legion just isn't competitive. I don't think they're irredeemably terrible, and they'll do fine on a casual level. I started writing a whole long rant, but I think it can be summed up as follows: until the Chimera isn't hot steaming garbage and Militarum Tempestus receive a huge nerf, Steel Legion is not going to be the best choice.
The "ideal" formation for Steel Legion right now seems to be a bunch of Plasma packed into super-heavies with firing decks. For anything else you are probably better off with a different regiment.
Steel legion just needs a FAQ allowing it to disembark and reimbark the same turn.
That looks like the intention from the community article but the rules team seems like they had other ideas.
Even with that change which would make infantry units/vets in chimeras decent steel legion still would play second fiddle to Cadian and catachan, maybe even tallarn which is also really good. It honestly a reworked steel legion doctrine is the only way mech vets are decent this edition.
Valhallan just needs a FAQ for send in the next wave NOT to cost reinforcement Points and they would still be not great but usable.
I'm also hugely unimpressed with sentinels this edition. Without the ability to move and fire heavies without penalty they are bad. Tallarn is the only way to make them viable as well.
What about vostroya? Seems like the idea behind em is to kite until their backs are against the wall? In theory they should be able to out-gunline other gunlines through sheer range, no?
gungo wrote: Steel legion just needs a FAQ allowing it to disembark and reimbark the same turn.
That looks like the intention from the community article but the rules team seems like they had other ideas.
Even with that change which would make infantry units/vets in chimeras decent steel legion still would play second fiddle to Cadian and catachan, maybe even tallarn which is also really good. It honestly a reworked steel legion doctrine is the only way mech vets are decent this edition.
Valhallan just needs a FAQ for send in the next wave NOT to cost reinforcement Points and they would still be not great but usable.
I'm also hugely unimpressed with sentinels this edition. Without the ability to move and fire heavies without penalty they are bad. Tallarn is the only way to make them viable as well.
Normal sentinels are unimpressive yes. Scout sentinels can be used to deny deepstrikes with their scout move and are cheap way to fill a brigade too.
gungo wrote: Valhallan just needs a FAQ for send in the next wave NOT to cost reinforcement Points and they would still be not great but usable.
Well I didn't realise that but it makes sense. I guess it could still be useful if you found a use for actual waves of infantry rather than having them on at the start. It is really just a way to have reserves, which is something that is rather limited in this edition.
gungo wrote: Steel legion just needs a FAQ allowing it to disembark and reimbark the same turn.
That looks like the intention from the community article but the rules team seems like they had other ideas.
Even with that change which would make infantry units/vets in chimeras decent steel legion still would play second fiddle to Cadian and catachan, maybe even tallarn which is also really good. It honestly a reworked steel legion doctrine is the only way mech vets are decent this edition.
Valhallan just needs a FAQ for send in the next wave NOT to cost reinforcement Points and they would still be not great but usable.
I'm also hugely unimpressed with sentinels this edition. Without the ability to move and fire heavies without penalty they are bad. Tallarn is the only way to make them viable as well.
Normal sentinels are unimpressive yes. Scout sentinels can be used to deny deepstrikes with their scout move and are cheap way to fill a brigade too.
Not only that but a model with 6 t5 wounds is nothing to scoff at either. It's the way you use them, areas denial and troop support seems the two best uses. I'd take heavy flamers on scout sentiels and deny area then move and burn me some gits, for armored sentinals simply mix them through out your line and use them as up armored heavy weapons that can assault and tie down things in a pinch.
Another disappointed SL player here. Im just going to run them as Tallarn for the time being. Not perfect, but at least Im not running "Immobile Bunkers - The List"... :/
I mean, it couldve been fine if the tank part of the doctrine was alright. As it is, the only thing SL have going for them is 18" rapid fire, which is not particularly different from the vostroyan RD, apart from theirs affecting almost all weapons... and even then, Vostroya isnt exactly lauded as the best RD.
(and in cruel irony, even the 18" RF is kind of useless to me - my usual opponent plays death guard...)
gungo wrote: Steel legion just needs a FAQ allowing it to disembark and reimbark the same turn.
That looks like the intention from the community article but the rules team seems like they had other ideas.
Even with that change which would make infantry units/vets in chimeras decent steel legion still would play second fiddle to Cadian and catachan, maybe even tallarn which is also really good. It honestly a reworked steel legion doctrine is the only way mech vets are decent this edition.
Valhallan just needs a FAQ for send in the next wave NOT to cost reinforcement Points and they would still be not great but usable.
I'm also hugely unimpressed with sentinels this edition. Without the ability to move and fire heavies without penalty they are bad. Tallarn is the only way to make them viable as well.
Where does it say send in the next wave costs points for the new unit? Last I heard other strategems worded the same way dont require reinforcement points, like the admech one.
Where does it say send in the next wave costs points for the new unit? Last I heard other strategems worded the same way dont require reinforcement points, like the admech one.
gungo wrote: Steel legion just needs a FAQ allowing it to disembark and reimbark the same turn.
That looks like the intention from the community article but the rules team seems like they had other ideas.
Even with that change which would make infantry units/vets in chimeras decent steel legion still would play second fiddle to Cadian and catachan, maybe even tallarn which is also really good. It honestly a reworked steel legion doctrine is the only way mech vets are decent this edition.
Valhallan just needs a FAQ for send in the next wave NOT to cost reinforcement Points and they would still be not great but usable.
I'm also hugely unimpressed with sentinels this edition. Without the ability to move and fire heavies without penalty they are bad. Tallarn is the only way to make them viable as well.
Where does it say send in the next wave costs points for the new unit? Last I heard other strategems worded the same way dont require reinforcement points, like the admech one.
The rules about reinforcement points are explicit that you have to spend reinforcement points to use abilities that "replace units that have been destroyed". The AdMech stratagem is completely different, in that it merely adds models to an existing unit. In any case, the AdMech faq says that you don't have to use reinforcement points to use the stratagem you're talking about.
Tyr13 wrote: As it is, the only thing SL have going for them is 18" rapid fire...
I don't know, their unique stratagem is alright. Sure, reroll 1s is covered by an order but you can do it in addition to another order, such as FRFSRF or BiD. Their unique order isn't great I guess but could be useful in the following turn to mount up and run. They did get a poor relic. I can see why Armageddon players would be disappointed but you can still do something. Dual flamer Chimeras would be the way to go if you don't want to bunker (which I also hate). That "ignore ap -1" rule does help you against what are considered the transport popping weapons, like heavy bolters and autocannons.
Definitely a disappointing regiments but not all hope is lost.
xmbk wrote: Why can't mauls and axes be taken using index points?
it would be a perfectly fine House Rule.
Why does it have to be house ruled? Did I miss a FAQ ruling? Index can be used for models that don't have a codex entry. Use the codex for the unit, index for the maul/axe.
Not correct, index can be used for units that are not updated in the codex. You don't get to pick and choose which version you want based on availability of options etc. So currently any unit that has updated rules MUST use the codex meaning you cannot get axes and mauls on your units unless they are available on a unit like rough riders.
People continue to get this so wrong. Another example are demo charges, there gone, period. I don't get to ignore the more current codex entries in order to swap in wargear that is no longer available.
Do you have anything to back that up? The GW link I gave seems to support putting index weapons on codex units, provided the weapon isn't in the codex. It's not picking and choosing a version, you use the most recent version of each (unit and equipment).
ThePorcupine wrote: I dunno. Maybe. I'm just trying to come up with a "good" steel legion list. Everyone and their grandmother has a cadian or a catachan list. It's not hard to make them competitive. The more obscure regiments though?
When I first read the steel legion order and stratagem I thought they were trash. Shoot and embark seems great until you read that you can't do it if you disembarked. Then.. what's.. the point? As soon as you come out, you're left in the open for a turn and you can kiss your squad goodbye. And 1CP to reroll 1s for a squad coming out of a transport? What, you mean like the order? That's free?
But I'm trying to not be so negative. There has to be SOME way to make mechanized guard viable. That's steel legion's whole thing!
I don't know if you know this, but a unit can only benefit from one order, so using the CP (which you'll have plenty of) means you can use a different order. Works amazingly well with your plasma concept so you can reroll wounds while protecting yourself from overheating. It's been working really well for me, so maybe avoid being negative and just try it out instead!
ThePorcupine wrote: I dunno. Maybe. I'm just trying to come up with a "good" steel legion list. Everyone and their grandmother has a cadian or a catachan list. It's not hard to make them competitive. The more obscure regiments though?
When I first read the steel legion order and stratagem I thought they were trash. Shoot and embark seems great until you read that you can't do it if you disembarked. Then.. what's.. the point? As soon as you come out, you're left in the open for a turn and you can kiss your squad goodbye. And 1CP to reroll 1s for a squad coming out of a transport? What, you mean like the order? That's free?
But I'm trying to not be so negative. There has to be SOME way to make mechanized guard viable. That's steel legion's whole thing!
I don't know if you know this, but a unit can only benefit from one order, so using the CP (which you'll have plenty of) means you can use a different order. Works amazingly well with your plasma concept so you can reroll wounds while protecting yourself from overheating. It's been working really well for me, so maybe avoid being negative and just try it out instead!
But then again, Vostryans get +1 to hit stratagem which is quite much better than rerolls to 1's when using BS3+ plasmaguns. You dont even have to disembark to use it!
Only way to make SL stratagem decent would make it work for the whole army, not just one unit.
Lemondish wrote: I don't know if you know this, but a unit can only benefit from one order, so using the CP (which you'll have plenty of) means you can use a different order. Works amazingly well with your plasma concept so you can reroll wounds while protecting yourself from overheating. It's been working really well for me, so maybe avoid being negative and just try it out instead!
Glad to hear it's been going well for you! Which configuration of transport have you been finding effective?
I've got some questions that might have been answered in the previous pages:
1) Has the Bullgryn change to their saves/shields been for better or worse? Or is the net effect the same overall? They went from a 2+ Save, to a 4+ but with a rule that states to add 2 to the roll. How would this work for -AP modifiers, that might make that 4+ a 7+?
2) Can a Militarum Tempestus Regiment take Auxilia/Flyers without having their regimental doctrine affected? There's some weird wording on page 132 about "Tempestus only Get a doctrine if every unit is Tempestus" and the auxilla section below stating exceptions. RAI seems to be obvious, but the RAW is wonky.
ajax_xaja wrote: I've got some questions that might have been answered in the previous pages:
1) Has the Bullgryn change to their saves/shields been for better or worse? Or is the net effect the same overall? They went from a 2+ Save, to a 4+ but with a rule that states to add 2 to the roll. How would this work for -AP modifiers, that might make that 4+ a 7+?
2) Can a Militarum Tempestus Regiment take Auxilia/Flyers without having their regimental doctrine affected? There's some weird wording on page 132 about "Tempestus only Get a doctrine if every unit is Tempestus" and the auxilla section below stating exceptions. RAI seems to be obvious, but the RAW is wonky.
1. It should be net effect the same other than they are more efficient at receiving save buffs from other sources.
2. As people currently understand the rules as written and until its FAQ'd its a bit dodgy, an original Tempestus regiment has to be pure and cant have any non Tempestus unit, however you can make up your own regiment and assign them any of the doctrines which doesn't have the same limitation, and assign them the Tempestus doctrine. I think the rule intent was that they would be pure limited to the Scion units and you might have a detachment of them in your army with their doctrine, not field an entire army of that regiment with tanks and Auxillaries and other stuff.
Could you guys stop complaining about anything?
AM is currently the strongest army and you just got an extremely good codex. You don't need to wory, you will win the game.
Stuxseth wrote: Could you guys stop complaining about anything?
AM is currently the strongest army and you just got an extremely good codex. You don't need to wory, you will win the game.
It wasn't the nerf bat some were fearing and gave good army diversity options, but there still internal balance issues that could have been improved to provide a meaningful distinction to unit choices, and some things so far below the level of others that your hurting yourself to play them. When you see things like the Vehicle Augur Array that costs 10 points and gives you 1 hit dice reroll per game you wonder what they were thinking when you have so many other free options to do that.
The thing is, this thread started before 8th hit, when Guard were kind of a poor army. A lot of the old school Guard players have an underdog mentality, which persists to this day. Hell, Guard is a popular faction partially because they are the galaxy's underdog. Being powerful is new to some of us oldies. (-:
Blightstar wrote: If you think being guard is being an underdog then you missed 5th edition .
Eh, the whole leafblower thing was an overblown gimmick. Wound allocation Paladins was just brokenly powerful when compared. I still have nightmares about that stupid rule. Fix wound allocation and 5th would probably have been the best edition by far.
The thing is, this thread started before 8th hit, when Guard were kind of a poor army. A lot of the old school Guard players have an underdog mentality, which persists to this day. Hell, Guard is a popular faction partially because they are the galaxy's underdog. Being powerful is new to some of us oldies. (-:
I don't know about that...I started playing in 5th when we saw the mighty leaf blower squash every list out there. Then 6th dropped and things weren't as rosy. Then 7th hit and my IG did almost nothing but collect dust or occasionally be cheap troops in an allied detachment. But boy, 5th was awesome or at least really good for IG. We've just had to put up with around 5 years of garbage compared to so many other armies...
Edit: Wow so while I was typing this up a bunch of us were pining for the leaf blower apparently
Did no one else find leafblower to be pretty poor? It hit the meta like a brick but was pretty easy to adapt to, at least where I played. It was very reliant on getting the first turn, some games turned into more of a coin flip.
2) Can a Militarum Tempestus Regiment take Auxilia/Flyers without having their regimental doctrine affected? There's some weird wording on page 132 about "Tempestus only Get a doctrine if every unit is Tempestus" and the auxilla section below stating exceptions. RAI seems to be obvious, but the RAW is wonky.
2. As people currently understand the rules as written and until its FAQ'd its a bit dodgy, an original Tempestus regiment has to be pure and cant have any non Tempestus unit, however you can make up your own regiment and assign them any of the doctrines which doesn't have the same limitation, and assign them the Tempestus doctrine. I think the rule intent was that they would be pure limited to the Scion units and you might have a detachment of them in your army with their doctrine, not field an entire army of that regiment with tanks and Auxillaries and other stuff.
Hm, not sure this would work. The scions would not receive the Regimental Bonus because they don't have keyword <Regiment>. Seems like a pretty careless mistake, but that's nothing new for the GW ruleset I suppose.
Strange that they wouldn't consider players who take scions only, especially since they've had their own codex/books before.
Trickstick wrote: Did no one else find leafblower to be pretty poor? It hit the meta like a brick but was pretty easy to adapt to, at least where I played. It was very reliant on getting the first turn, some games turned into more of a coin flip.
I played for few hundred games and I pretty much mowed everything down and won some tournaments too. Basic meltachimvet/vendetta/hydra/manticore-build. Only stuff like psycan-rifleman GK could give me rough ride.
Never felt that paladins were a problem but then again, I was swimming in meltaguns.
Scions do have <REGIMENT>. 'Militarum Tempestus' is their regiment. The start of the army list even says that "Units with the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS keyword treat this as their <REGIMENT> keyword in all respects..."
And I also don't see why Advisors and Auxilla prevent Scions from getting their regimental doctrine -- the text about all units needing MILITARUM TEMPESTUS is saying basically the same thing as the text about every other regimental doctrine's requirement. The point of the "Militarum Tempestus" section is to make clear that (1) you can include Scions in an ASTRA MILITARUM detachment and still get a regimental doctrine for the other units in that detachment, but (2) the Scions themselves don't get a doctrine unless they're the only regiment in the detachment.
Could someone with a Facebook account ask GW the question about "Send in the next wave" stratagem ? Does it needs you to put aside reinforcement points on list writing level ?
As a Valhallan player, I hope not, of course. I feel this stratagem is essential to make Valhallan stand as interesting among other regiments. If unusable, they would lose a lot of their appeal.
Dionysodorus wrote: Scions do have <REGIMENT>. 'Militarum Tempestus' is their regiment. The start of the army list even says that "Units with the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS keyword treat this as their <REGIMENT> keyword in all respects..."
And I also don't see why Advisors and Auxilla prevent Scions from getting their regimental doctrine -- the text about all units needing MILITARUM TEMPESTUS is saying basically the same thing as the text about every other regimental doctrine's requirement. The point of the "Militarum Tempestus" section is to make clear that (1) you can include Scions in an ASTRA MILITARUM detachment and still get a regimental doctrine for the other units in that detachment, but (2) the Scions themselves don't get a doctrine unless they're the only regiment in the detachment.
It treats them as separate to normal AM regiments. Relevant bits anyway
If your chosen regiment does not have an associated Regimental doctrine you may pick the doctrine that you feel best suits your army.
Militarum Tempestus units can be included in an Astra Militarum detachment without preventing other units in that detachment from gaining a regimental doctrine. Note however that Militarum Tempestus units do not benefit from any regimental doctrine unless every unit in that detachment is Militarum Tempestus in which case they gain the Storm Troopers doctrine.
The units below can be included in an Astra Militarum detachment without preventing other units in that detachment from gaining a regimental doctrine.
Just a heads-up on bullgryn slabshields - the wording that it gives a +2 to all saves in particular: The german translation of the codex specifically says its just armour saves. This means that its not nearly as cut-and-dry as people might think reading the english version when it comes to applying that bonus to invulnerable saves.
At thi spoint, there would be two options:
1) The translation team was wrong and misinterpreted the rule (which is possible, translations have sucked lately)
2) The intent was for it to only affect armour saves and the translation accounts for that, while the rules team slipped up.
Anyone have any thoughts on this? Possibly ask a question regarding this on FB?
(I dont have an account, and dont want one either... <.< )
Dionysodorus wrote: Scions do have <REGIMENT>. 'Militarum Tempestus' is their regiment. The start of the army list even says that "Units with the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS keyword treat this as their <REGIMENT> keyword in all respects..."
And I also don't see why Advisors and Auxilla prevent Scions from getting their regimental doctrine -- the text about all units needing MILITARUM TEMPESTUS is saying basically the same thing as the text about every other regimental doctrine's requirement. The point of the "Militarum Tempestus" section is to make clear that (1) you can include Scions in an ASTRA MILITARUM detachment and still get a regimental doctrine for the other units in that detachment, but (2) the Scions themselves don't get a doctrine unless they're the only regiment in the detachment.
It treats them as separate to normal AM regiments. Relevant bits anyway
If your chosen regiment does not have an associated Regimental doctrine you may pick the doctrine that you feel best suits your army.
Militarum Tempestus units can be included in an Astra Militarum detachment without preventing other units in that detachment from gaining a regimental doctrine. Note however that Militarum Tempestus units do not benefit from any regimental doctrine unless every unit in that detachment is Militarum Tempestus in which case they gain the Storm Troopers doctrine.
The units below can be included in an Astra Militarum detachment without preventing other units in that detachment from gaining a regimental doctrine.
Yes, I'm aware. My post acknowledges that, even -- I point out that this text is saying essentially the same thing as the text about how regular regiments receive doctrines. The Militarum Tempestus rules say that all units in the detachment must be from the Militarum Tempestus to get their regimental doctrine, just like the regular Regimental Doctrines rules say that all units in the detachment must be from the same regiment to get a regimental doctrine. Then the Advisors and Auxilla rules say that certain units don't prevent others from getting a doctrine. Specific overrides general. The only really interesting difference between the rules for regular regiments and Scions is that the regular rules have a parenthetical heads-up about the upcoming exceptions, but obviously this has no rules significance -- you can see this by pretending that the parenthetical isn't there and asking whether anything changes.
Tyr13 wrote: Anyone have any thoughts on this? Possibly ask a question regarding this on FB?
(I dont have an account, and dont want one either... <.< )
I think it is obviously a mistake that will get FAQed. Why would a large piece of armour improve your invulnerable save? It has no technological or magical properties at all, which is where most invulnerable saves come from. I would definitely file it under "I can't really stop you using this rule, but I would suggest not converting/purchasing on the basis of it".
Blightstar wrote: If you think being guard is being an underdog then you missed 5th edition .
I've been playing since the beginning of 3rd and the only times apart from now that Guard haven't been trash tier were the 3rd edition index in the back of the rulebook (which didn't last very long) and 5th edition. I'm glad that I finally get to know what Eldar players have felt like over most of the last couple of decades.
Yes, I'm aware. My post acknowledges that, even -- I point out that this text is saying essentially the same thing as the text about how regular regiments receive doctrines. The Militarum Tempestus rules say that all units in the detachment must be from the Militarum Tempestus to get their regimental doctrine, just like the regular Regimental Doctrines rules say that all units in the detachment must be from the same regiment to get a regimental doctrine. Then the Advisors and Auxilla rules say that certain units don't prevent others from getting a doctrine. Specific overrides general. The only really interesting difference between the rules for regular regiments and Scions is that the regular rules have a parenthetical heads-up about the upcoming exceptions, but obviously this has no rules significance -- you can see this by pretending that the parenthetical isn't there and asking whether anything changes.
If it was the same meaning that its just Regiment then they wouldn't need two separate paragraphs to say the same thing twice and it also lacks the parenthesis section from <Regiment> explanation.
"Every unit in the detachment (apart from the exceptions noted) is from the same regiment".
"Every unit in the detachment is from Militarum Tempestus"
tuebor wrote: ...3rd edition index in the back of the rulebook (which didn't last very long)
Was that when they could shoot before the game started? I only got into Guard during their 1st 3rd ed codex. Was ok, although I really liked the 3.5ed version and that is when I made them my primary army and never looked back. Something about everything in your army having infiltrate was kinda fun.
Tyr13 wrote: Anyone have any thoughts on this? Possibly ask a question regarding this on FB?
(I dont have an account, and dont want one either... <.< )
I think it is obviously a mistake that will get FAQed. Why would a large piece of armour improve your invulnerable save? It has no technological or magical properties at all, which is where most invulnerable saves come from. I would definitely file it under "I can't really stop you using this rule, but I would suggest not converting/purchasing on the basis of it".
Possibly the same reason the other kind of Bullgryn shield gives an invulnerable save? An invulnerable save isn't always magic in 40k.
Yes, I'm aware. My post acknowledges that, even -- I point out that this text is saying essentially the same thing as the text about how regular regiments receive doctrines. The Militarum Tempestus rules say that all units in the detachment must be from the Militarum Tempestus to get their regimental doctrine, just like the regular Regimental Doctrines rules say that all units in the detachment must be from the same regiment to get a regimental doctrine. Then the Advisors and Auxilla rules say that certain units don't prevent others from getting a doctrine. Specific overrides general. The only really interesting difference between the rules for regular regiments and Scions is that the regular rules have a parenthetical heads-up about the upcoming exceptions, but obviously this has no rules significance -- you can see this by pretending that the parenthetical isn't there and asking whether anything changes.
If it was the same meaning that its just Regiment then they wouldn't need two separate paragraphs to say the same thing twice and it also lacks the parenthesis section from <Regiment> explanation.
"Every unit in the detachment (apart from the exceptions noted) is from the same regiment".
"Every unit in the detachment is from Militarum Tempestus"
But it obviously doesn't have the same meaning, it just isn't different in the way you think it is. I explained what that section is saying in my earlier post. You're reading far too much into the absence of a parenthetical heads-up about a later section of rules when the obvious explanation for this is just that the writer felt like the reader had already been made aware of the later section and so didn't want to repeat himself. Again, you can easily see that the parenthetical isn't actually doing anything by asking what changes if you delete it.
Executioners no longer impload and re-roll ones are easier to come by.
Demolishers now get d6 shots at 5-strong units, so should be able to target most infantry (at least for the first round) at full power.
Punishers do seem good, decent quality of quantity now. Also better returns on buffs.
Battlecannons are the comprise, good standalone, excellent range.
Sponsons? I'm always the opinion that, at least until you've filled a health detachment or two (dare I say.. Battalion), it's always better to field more units than upgrade existing ones.
tuebor wrote: ...3rd edition index in the back of the rulebook (which didn't last very long)
Was that when they could shoot before the game started? I only got into Guard during their 1st 3rd ed codex. Was ok, although I really liked the 3.5ed version and that is when I made them my primary army and never looked back. Something about everything in your army having infiltrate was kinda fun.
Shooting before the game started was a 2nd edition thing, the index back then had severely undercosted heavy weapons teams, to the point where you could nearly table some armies in a turn. This was the infamous SAFH, or the Shooty Army from Hell. Given that the most common tactic then was the Rhino rush, the ludicrous amount of lascannons you could fit into a list was a pretty hard counter to the meta.
I'm pretty sure the all-infiltrating list was the 2nd one from 3rd edition, post Eye of Terror. The one that took my Griffon's away from me
argonak wrote: Possibly the same reason the other kind of Bullgryn shield gives an invulnerable save?
I just assumed they were some sort of force field shield but now I check can't see a mention of it. I guess they are parrying bucklers, and they grant an invulnerable in the same way that dodge does.
Razerous wrote: Anyone have further experience with Leman Russes?
Executioners no longer impload and re-roll ones are easier to come by.
Demolishers now get d6 shots at 5-strong units, so should be able to target most infantry (at least for the first round) at full power.
Punishers do seem good, decent quality of quantity now. Also better returns on buffs.
Battlecannons are the comprise, good standalone, excellent range.
Sponsons? I'm always the opinion that, at least until you've filled a health detachment or two (dare I say.. Battalion), it's always better to field more units than upgrade existing ones.
Just curious on peoples thoughts.
Every time a new codex comes out, I spend most of my time thinking about and testing Russ weapon combinations. I've gone through a lot over the years, it is always a bit of a minefield. The biggest change when 8th came along, which changed all of my previous thinking, is free split fire with all units. Previously, I matched the roles of all of the guns so they could do well against a single target. This led to bolter punishers, las/melta exterminators and the like. Now, you are much better mixing gun roles. You put all of your AT on one tank and AP on another, the enemy can kill the one you need. Split if over two and they can't. Also, having AT weapons on different units allows you to fire them individually at armoured targets, helping to prevent overkill. Also, the new doctrines have added another layer of depth to the situation.
Cadians like to sit still and have blast turrets ( due to their unique order). Because they stay still the 24" range weapons can be a bit of a liability. Also, the reroll 1s make plasma very tempting. So for them I would go battlecannon or executioner with plasma sponsons and bolter/lascannon hull mount.
Catachans, which give a benefit to blasts, makes those guns very tempting. Sitting still they are similar to Cadians, although they benefit from mounting flamers if they want to move. That -1 to hit when moving is bypassed by flamers, making them a good choice for a mobile tank.
Tallarn are the ones that can use the short range weapons the best, either outflanking or move-shooting with their order. They are the best to use melta sponsons, as getting within 12" is easiest for them and they get to use full BS. They also have an easier time getting into range with flamers, although they are not as good as they can't reroll number of shots. You can also get a flamer russ, outflank it and order the tank within range, which is nice.
Basically, you have to think about what you need the tank to do, what special rules it has and what buffs you can give it. Although you can ignore rules you have in some situations (like a Tallarn flamer not needing the "ignore -1 for moving rule"), it is usually best to play to your strengths. There are a few things that we can say should be avoided though:
- Don't plan to move a plasma cannon if you are not Tallarn. The -1 to hit can melt you. Of course, sometimes you have to. Just don't make it a key part of your plan.
- Vanquishers are just bad. I wish they weren't, as my tank commander is a lovely FW vanquisher. I will still use it but it is really a sub-optimal choice.
- Eradicators and exterminators also seem like bad options. They do have things they are good at but overall hardly seem worth it.
- Demolishers are expensive. They are pretty good but you have to pay for them, it may be worth going for something cheaper.
As for sponsons, I love them. I would always take them unless I was planning to move all of the time with a non-Tallarn tank but didn't want flamers. Spending just 16pts on a 150pt Russ gives it a decent increase in firepower. I think of it like special weapons. You wouldn't take a squad with 2 out of 3 weapons unless it was for a very specific reason. Now if I had to say the variants that I am going to try myself? As I am taking Tallarn, I will probably go lascannon/melta punishers and see how that does. Cheap gun that is very good against infantry, strong AT firepower from the secondaries. Short range but that is mitigated by being Tallarn. I'm also tempted by flamer demolishers outflanking with a las/melt punisher commander to order them.
Note: I have used this 3++ blog post for the maths of turret weapons. It is out of date, being made for 8th edition's release, but still works to compare the guns against eachother. As all of the Russ's turrets can now double fire, they stay the same relative to one another. Also, the demolisher's gun changes slightly but it doesn;t really affect the numbers.
I'm a bit sleepy and started to ramble at certain point but I think I got my key points across. Russ weapons has probably been one of my most thought about topics in my time with 40k. There are so many things to think about, especially with 8th. It really comes down to what you want the tanks to do nd how they are going to be supported.
Edit: A small addendum about extra options. Track guards, dozers and augers all seem pointless. A 2pt storm bolter is nice, if you want to move. For gunline I guess a stubber is ok if you have the points. HK missiles I don't know about. They are pretty cheap but I have only ever used them on outflanking scout sentinels back in 5th.
The stygies vanquisher is ok but my biggest complaint about vanquishers in general is the fact it is only str 8 and really should have reroll to wound vs vehicles and monstrous creatures. This would make it stand out from all other leman russes for its role as a monster hunter.
The standard version lacks all the extra to hit bonuses of stygies but both versions lack the wounding potential needed on a low rate of fire weapon.
Lemondish wrote: I don't know if you know this, but a unit can only benefit from one order, so using the CP (which you'll have plenty of) means you can use a different order. Works amazingly well with your plasma concept so you can reroll wounds while protecting yourself from overheating. It's been working really well for me, so maybe avoid being negative and just try it out instead!
Glad to hear it's been going well for you! Which configuration of transport have you been finding effective?
Mostly Chimeras, but I subbed them for Tauroxes last game and I think I've found my new love. The caveat is including the vox or running a command Chimera nearby for orders, but unless you hit hard with something dangerous, like tons of plasma, you need to conserve the CP. I've found they've been a fantastic way to increase the mobility, survivability, and damage from infantry squads, which have been the real winners for me. If the transport is carrying something with ridiculous damage potential, it gets targeted early and with things the AP -1 rule doesn't help with. When my dangerous stuff draws the fire (and is far more resilient), the troops can hit the objectives and position the transport to help block los.
Valkyries I haven't tried yet, which is a bummer because they seem so good for this. I just can't sub Chimeras for them no matter what my opponents agree to. Doesn't feel right lol
Full disclosure: we are not tournament level players, and while competitive, we sometimes focus on fluffy lists over super competitive, but this has been pretty successful due to the clear split of purpose. They're mobile objective cappers with a pretty great threat range. I keep them cheap to add more and to focus on building up the options on the real dangerous units.
It's theory hammer for now, but with grinding advance, you can move a little bit. If you run them in a spearhead, I'd say go fireball, Tallarn with sponsons of choice, or go lean with turret and heavy bolter. Moving 5", shooting twice, and scoring all make them slow but durable options for midfield objectives. They can also charge as needed.
I like cadians with plasma, but they russes can tank some overheats now.
Cadians of course have pask, who is still a bargain compared to the basic commander. They also get better blasts as an order, which is real good with plasma sponsons.
Cadians of course have pask, who is still a bargain compared to the basic commander. They also get better blasts as an order, which is real good with plasma sponsons.
Cadian orders only affect turret-blasts but rerolls to 1's is very nice thing to have even then.
I'm quite enjoying the flexibility Cadia offers to run
Pask Punisher with Melta
Battle cannon with bolters
Executioner with plasma
I think it gives a good balance of Dakka, anti TEQ and anti tank/dreadnought. I agree the tank upgrades are mostly useless but I do think the Track Guards on my Pask may be useful when he has 24" weapons and will be focus fired a lot by opponents.
Next genAM list of mine. Composition rules, no double same detachment, max 3 detachments, no more than 3 of same unit, all FAQ and future Chapter approved in use.
List is very much a work in progress and some things will change but it's the core where I'll build on.
Supreme Command (Cadia):
-Knight Commander Pask, Executioner, 3 Heavy Bolters, RELIC OF LOST CADIA
-Tank Commander, Executioner, 3 Heavy Bolters
-Tank Commander, Executioner, 3 Heavy Bolters
-Shadowsword, Volcano Cannon, 4 Lascannons, 5 Twin HB, Storm Bolter
Battallion (Cadia):
-Tempestor Prime, Tempestus Command Rod
-Company Commander, GRAND STRATEGIST, KUROV's AQUILA
I'll probably drop one Mortar team so I can afford at least a couple PC sponsons for Pask. Other than that it's pretty solid. Executioner fits Cadia like a hand in a a glove due to 36" range (not need to move so they get free re-rolls to hit) and a random amount of shots (tank order for re-rolls). The aura relic on Pask for 1 CP is pretty sick. They can move once per game and still keep their re-rolls, and it's such a hard counter for all Chaos and Daemon armies that it's absurd.
Celestine's 6+ invulnerable bubble stacks with Take Cover and Psychic Barrier. 1+/4++ Shadowsword for the lolz.
That would screw over the list I'm writing. I want to fill out a brigade and was thinking of 6x Tallarn Infantry squads to make a light infantry screen. A limit on 3 infantry squads seems to be almost forcing you to use conscripts...
List looks intereting though. I am interested in trying Eversor assassins, as I have had the model for years. How do you use them? Just jump in and cause chaos?
That would screw over the list I'm writing. I want to fill out a brigade and was thinking of 6x Tallarn Infantry squads to make a light infantry screen. A limit on 3 infantry squads seems to be almost forcing you to use conscripts...
List looks intereting though. I am interested in trying Eversor assassins, as I have had the model for years. How do you use them? Just jump in and cause chaos?
In the points spent per damage caused Eversors on the jump (pistol shot+charge) are the point for point (pound for pound) winner in damage against GEQ and Orks and super solid vs MEQ. In my list they're a backup plan since I've gone heavy on anti-tank, and Celestine and the two Eversors are a small alternate win condition. They can get in the face of an enemy that hangs back, or pre-emptively charge something that's coming to me, and do a damn good job at causing damage per buck.
Not to mention, I've tried to make all my armies hybrids of majority shooting minority assault for about 20 years. I just like to have options.
Blightstar wrote: If you think being guard is being an underdog then you missed 5th edition .
Or you played something other than a mechanized infantry and artillery battlegroup.
Seriously, I played armoured company and lost every single game of 5th that wasn't kill-points because tanks couldn't score, even when they were troops. So I was an underdog in 5th too.
Blightstar wrote: If you think being guard is being an underdog then you missed 5th edition .
Or you played something other than a mechanized infantry and artillery battlegroup.
Seriously, I played armoured company and lost every single game of 5th that wasn't kill-points because tanks couldn't score, even when they were troops. So I was an underdog in 5th too.
At the very least, I don't think IG could be considered the top-dog in 5th. IIRCSWs, GKs, SMs and a couple of others were all pretty strong as well.
Next genAM list of mine. Composition rules, no double same detachment, max 3 detachments, no more than 3 of same unit, all FAQ and future Chapter approved in use.
List is very much a work in progress and some things will change but it's the core where I'll build on.
Supreme Command (Cadia):
-Knight Commander Pask, Executioner, 3 Heavy Bolters, RELIC OF LOST CADIA
-Tank Commander, Executioner, 3 Heavy Bolters
-Tank Commander, Executioner, 3 Heavy Bolters
-Shadowsword, Volcano Cannon, 4 Lascannons, 5 Twin HB, Storm Bolter
Battallion (Cadia):
-Tempestor Prime, Tempestus Command Rod
-Company Commander, GRAND STRATEGIST, KUROV's AQUILA
I'll probably drop one Mortar team so I can afford at least a couple PC sponsons for Pask. Other than that it's pretty solid. Executioner fits Cadia like a hand in a a glove due to 36" range (not need to move so they get free re-rolls to hit) and a random amount of shots (tank order for re-rolls). The aura relic on Pask for 1 CP is pretty sick. They can move once per game and still keep their re-rolls, and it's such a hard counter for all Chaos and Daemon armies that it's absurd.
Celestine's 6+ invulnerable bubble stacks with Take Cover and Psychic Barrier. 1+/4++ Shadowsword for the lolz.
Not bad, I like it. I also personally love Celestine + Eversor Assassins combo. But do note that Pask cannot have Relics due being special characters. The ruling is a bit wonky but gives out examples so that rules special characters out. But Pask is eating a motherload of attention from your opponent so might as well give the relic to other commander.
Or you played something other than a mechanized infantry and artillery battlegroup.
Seriously, I played armoured company and lost every single game of 5th that wasn't kill-points because tanks couldn't score, even when they were troops. So I was an underdog in 5th too.
All foot guard was delightfully mean in 5th too. The crestfallen guys at the FLGS that set up knowing they were playing against IG, and then just muttered "I thought there'd be more tanks" when I unpacked power blobs and some basilisks. Good times.
Therion wrote: Next genAM list of mine. Composition rules, no double same detachment, max 3 detachments, no more than 3 of same unit, all FAQ and future Chapter approved in use.
List is very much a work in progress and some things will change but it's the core where I'll build on.
Supreme Command (Cadia):
-Knight Commander Pask, Executioner, 3 Heavy Bolters, RELIC OF LOST CADIA
-Tank Commander, Executioner, 3 Heavy Bolters
-Tank Commander, Executioner, 3 Heavy Bolters
-Shadowsword, Volcano Cannon, 4 Lascannons, 5 Twin HB, Storm Bolter
Battallion (Cadia):
-Tempestor Prime, Tempestus Command Rod
-Company Commander, GRAND STRATEGIST, KUROV's AQUILA
I'll probably drop one Mortar team so I can afford at least a couple PC sponsons for Pask. Other than that it's pretty solid. Executioner fits Cadia like a hand in a a glove due to 36" range (not need to move so they get free re-rolls to hit) and a random amount of shots (tank order for re-rolls). The aura relic on Pask for 1 CP is pretty sick. They can move once per game and still keep their re-rolls, and it's such a hard counter for all Chaos and Daemon armies that it's absurd.
Celestine's 6+ invulnerable bubble stacks with Take Cover and Psychic Barrier. 1+/4++ Shadowsword for the lolz.
I like the list. Can I ask why you chose not to take Celastine's bodyguards (one or two of them)? Is it for a certain reason or you just needed to fit it into the list points-wise? Thanks.
Therion wrote: Next genAM list of mine. Composition rules, no double same detachment, max 3 detachments, no more than 3 of same unit, all FAQ and future Chapter approved in use.
List is very much a work in progress and some things will change but it's the core where I'll build on.
I like the list. Can I ask why you chose not to take Celastine's bodyguards (one or two of them)? Is it for a certain reason or you just needed to fit it into the list points-wise? Thanks.
The consensus over in the Sisters tactica is that the difference between zero and one is big, and the difference between one and two less so. I'd say try to free up 50 points somewhere for a BFF.
blazexiii wrote: Ogryn bodyguard can tank wound for tank commander.
WOW
Yeah my buddy and I noticed this today, we got a good laugh out of that mental image.
They're pretty great. As an infantry player I'm considering a few, not just for countering snipers but also as nice little countercharge elements. I've found infantry characters of all types can make pretty decent little assault forces to take out a few space marines here and there and when you gang them up (say 2-3 officers and a commissar or two) they can fight a unit that appears far more deadly than them. Having an ogryn mixed in would just make them even scarier. Granted they're not beating Mortarion or anything but I've seen more than a couple assault squads thrown back by a few officers stepping in and showing the boys how it's done.
Which is going to be especially fun with Catachans, since they're capable of getting enough buffs with Straken/priests that each guardsman is swinging at least 3 times at S4. That means a single 10 man infantry squad with Straken and a priest nearby puts out 31 S4 attacks! That's more attacks per model than even Black Templar get. And that's without orders, guns, and the fact that you're going to have far more models than the enemy. Granted you're probably not going to survive a charge across the field but it'll make a nasty countercharge element or a way to repel enemy assault stuff. Obviously it's kind of a goofy list idea but I liked the mental image of Powerblobs being back in a sense, especially since you can combine squads now.
As part of my 2000 pts I'm running a Cadian spearhead with Paskisher two LRBT with Executioner Plasmas and a Hydra (anti tank, anti infantry and anti air) alongside a Catachan Brigade
Unfortunately as Pask is a named character he can't take
a relic (which would be the relic of lost Cadia, which imo is the best Regiment specific relic)
An unnamed catachan company commander is taking the Kurov's Aquila (as it really seems to be the best not regiment specific relic) as Col Straken couldn't take that.
For tournament play I'm looking at adding a single Cadian Platoon Commander to my spearhead and if I come up against Chaos I'll use the "Imperial Commanders Armoury stratagem (1CP) to give this guy the Relic of lost Cadia. He'll be running inside the four Tanks to keep him safe and within the 12" range of the relic. If I'm not against Chaos is there any reason to spend a 1CP just to give those 4 vehicles reroll 1s for to hit and to wound?
Which is going to be especially fun with Catachans, since they're capable of getting enough buffs with Straken/priests that each guardsman is swinging at least 3 times at S4.
I'm strongly considering running this little Vanguard Detachment sometime:
Lands at 314 points, and you can easily give or take some equipment, or even ride in a Valkyrie instead. In any case, drive up, get out, order "Burn them out!" to the two squads, enjoy your pile of re-rollable Flamers and Heavy Flamers. Then assault with your Chimera to eat overwatch, followed by the S4 3A Guardsmen and Straken. Seems like a neat little proactive assault kit at a fairly reasonable price.
Which is going to be especially fun with Catachans, since they're capable of getting enough buffs with Straken/priests that each guardsman is swinging at least 3 times at S4.
I'm strongly considering running this little Vanguard Detachment sometime:
Lands at 314 points, and you can easily give or take some equipment, or even ride in a Valkyrie instead. In any case, drive up, get out, order "Burn them out!" to the two squads, enjoy your pile of re-rollable Flamers and Heavy Flamers. Then assault with your Chimera to eat overwatch, followed by the S4 3A Guardsmen and Straken. Seems like a neat little proactive assault kit at a fairly reasonable price.
I like it. My similar package swaps out the command and SWS and adds a veteran squad, fully loaded. You lose three flamers, but gain a heavy flamer, a plasma pistol, and a S4, four swing power weapon.
On an unrelated note, how does a Taurox full of basic infantry read as an objective holder/grabber? 72pts for two autocannons and a storm bolter make it a genuinely affordable little guy, and it can hold a dirt cheap infantry squad. If they're Tallan, they can move and shoot without penalty, while Cadians can sit tight and reroll ones. Catachans don't really benefit from it, other than possibly making it a more offensive package with two command squads with max flamers and a CC.
I dunno, I feel like in a lot of games I would have liked infantry in a fast transport, either for obsec or linebreaker, or even to assault and tie up enemy shooters.
Polonius wrote: I dunno, I feel like in a lot of games I would have liked infantry in a fast transport, either for obsec or linebreaker, or even to assault and tie up enemy shooters.
I hadn't considered the benefits of Tallarn transports too much. The ability to advance after disembarking gives them a decent advantage over others, and the ability to move the transports without degrading firepower is obviously good.
Polonius wrote: I dunno, I feel like in a lot of games I would have liked infantry in a fast transport, either for obsec or linebreaker, or even to assault and tie up enemy shooters.
I hadn't considered the benefits of Tallarn transports too much. The ability to advance after disembarking gives them a decent advantage over others, and the ability to move the transports without degrading firepower is obviously good.
Thats a good point, only weakness of taurox specifically is they cant get track guards, so it will slow down with damage. Transport heavy Tallarn would be fun to play, would heavily encourage meltas and flamers since if you were wanting plasma Steel Legion would be more useful fir disembarking infantry.
For consistency valhallans would ensure tauroxes stay at top speed for longer, about the only way to keep them at full throttle. Vlahallan units could also go in with less emphasis on commissars, something important to consider on tauroxes as they only carry 10.
Otherwise Chimeras with track guards are more reliable as even at 1 wound they will remain at top speed, which is the main point of transports. Your Leman russes should be the bulk of youre firepower, not transports (inless youre stormtroopers of course)
There's just so much you can do with guard now. It's crazy. Very exciting.
I just played a solid combined arms list against Death Guard at 2500 pts and holy crap they are tough! Without double firing leman russes I would have been wiped so quickly haha. That new lawn mower bloat drone is death!
Polonius wrote: I dunno, I feel like in a lot of games I would have liked infantry in a fast transport, either for obsec or linebreaker, or even to assault and tie up enemy shooters.
I hadn't considered the benefits of Tallarn transports too much. The ability to advance after disembarking gives them a decent advantage over others, and the ability to move the transports without degrading firepower is obviously good.
The Taurox has the only weapons you'd really care too much about not taking the -1, and even that's only autocannons, which aren't great. However, I think you can build a really interesting army around the Tallarn, as they have a ton of things that add to their mobility. OTOH, tallarn infantry simply won't spend long in their transports, as they can move almost as quickly on their own, or they can ambush. Also, I'd rather spend those points on juicy tanks that can move and fire, maybe even after ambushing...
Finally downloaded the codex. Disappointed we're still missing some basic things like closed compartments for open topped vehicles and carapace armour for vets. Different pricing for plasma is something I thought I'd never see, but a solid move. Still feels undercosted slightly though.
Tallarn overall feels like one of the stronger regiments, especially with any amount of vehicles. Very mobile and lots of synergy. I may be a Mordian at heart, but I like my tanks and I like them functioning as vehicles not as bunkers, so I may be running my Mordians mostly as Tallarn when I run armoured.
I'm glad I can combine infantry squads now, even though it costs 1CP for every 20 I want to put together. Never liked conscripts as a unit so I'll likely just powerblob it up with regular infantry squads.
I like that regiment doctrines exist, but I maintain it would have been better to use doctrines as a regiment type, not as a homeworld. I would have liked to see veteran doctrines return or at least more options for them.
I never liked many of the units that are currently hot stuff in the book, but I'm glad Russes were improved. Means I run an armoured company with mechanized infantry and be relevant without being overpowered. Overall, not a bad codex, but missing some flavour and shine that could have been included from previous codices. Still, doctrines are more than welcome.
Blacksails wrote: I'm glad I can combine infantry squads now, even though it costs 1CP for every 20 I want to put together. Never liked conscripts as a unit so I'll likely just powerblob it up with regular infantry squads.
It is only once per turn though, like all stratagems. It is not designed to build an army around, just save the special weapons from depleted squads and lower the kill points you give away.
One thing I was thinking about was this: do you have to pick relics as part of your list, or as part of deployment? It says before the battle, but at what point is that? At what point do you use the +relic stratagem? Do you take one relic in your list, but can use the stratagem and pick another relic when deploying? Mainly, I am wondering this because if you know your opponent before you pick relics, it allows you to tailor your list for the enemy in an allowed way, not the "this list is for vehicles" way. For example, you could pick the lost Cadia relic against chaos, but opt for something like a different sword if not, or save the CP entirely.
Blacksails wrote: I'm glad I can combine infantry squads now, even though it costs 1CP for every 20 I want to put together. Never liked conscripts as a unit so I'll likely just powerblob it up with regular infantry squads.
It is only once per turn though, like all stratagems. It is not designed to build an army around, just save the special weapons from depleted squads and lower the kill points you give away.
gak, right. Got excited. Bleh, I miss my powerblobs.
Blacksails wrote: gak, right. Got excited. Bleh, I miss my powerblobs.
What are you really losing by having 3x10 man squads these days? Commissars and priests are both auras now, so that isn't a problem. Orders can be but power blobs don't particularly need them to function. On the plus side, power swords are cheap now and you can get +1str Catachan fun. I would say melee Guard in in a really good place, even better than the old warrior weapons doctrine to give everyone lp/ccw.
Blacksails wrote: gak, right. Got excited. Bleh, I miss my powerblobs.
What are you really losing by having 3x10 man squads these days? Commissars and priests are both auras now, so that isn't a problem. Orders can be but power blobs don't particularly need them to function. On the plus side, power swords are cheap now and you can get +1str Catachan fun. I would say melee Guard in in a really good place, even better than the old warrior weapons doctrine to give everyone lp/ccw.
Yeah, all good points. Just have to adapt I suppose. Still living in the glory days of 5th.
I want melee Catachans to be viable but I'm not seeing it. I'm sure it'll be fun. But it's not going to be good. I've tested it out with my buddy and even with full commitment it's just not good.
You lose a bit of wound allocation, and the all-or-nothing of the charge. Since you now need to make x number of charges rather than just one, you run into the possibility of winding up with one out of how ever many squads making it, which could be unfortunate.
Honestly, I think you could make it work still with 1/turn. Turn 1, get 20, turn 2, get 30 (or, another 20). I'd be okay with 2x20 on a charge/countercharge, particularly since I've been making it work with a bunch of 10 man squads.
Blacksails wrote: Tallarn overall feels like one of the stronger regiments, especially with any amount of vehicles. Very mobile and lots of synergy. I may be a Mordian at heart, but I like my tanks and I like them functioning as vehicles not as bunkers, so I may be running my Mordians mostly as Tallarn when I run armoured.
I'm very interested to see how I can get Tallarns to work with the Genestealer elements of my GCult. I have no idea if it'll be too much mobile ambushy-ness, or if it'll synergize in a really strong way.
During an unusually boring conference call, I did some hand calculations to figure out the impact of the catachan doctrine on various blasts.
We all know (or should know), that the reroll on a basic d6 turns the expected value from 3.5 (the straight average) to 4.25 (assuming you reroll everything under 4).
What about two dice, pick the highest, common on earthshakers. For them, the expected values is the sum of all 36 combinations (1,1..1,2...etc), but rerolling a single die in there changes those expcted values. to calculate that, for each combination, I created a table of six further options, based on the re-roll, and then added up the best result. So, for 1,2, the table would be 2,2,3,4,5,6; since if you roll a one on the re-roll, the best result is the two). While small, this reroll does boost the expected shots from 4.47 to 4.96, or roughly 4.5 to 5.
For two dice, add them together, I did something similar, although you can just add the high result of the initial pair to 3.5 when the low result is under 4. With the doctrine, the expected value jumps from 7 to 8.23, which is a huge jump, but unlike roll two dice take the highest, you get all of the benefit from the reroll.
I don't have the time to do three dice manually, nor the skills to automate it, but it would likely be an even bigger benefit, as more results would benefit from a reroll (as there are more dice, so more chances of 1-3), meaning that the increase will likely be smaller percentage wise, but even larger in absolute terms.
What does this mean? Simply put, it shows how dramatically this doctrine improves the fire power of vehicle blasts for catachans. For battle cannons and the like, you get 3/4 of an additional shot, which doesn't sound like much, but it's a 21.4% increase in overall firepower, which significantly overshadows the increase for re-rolling ones to hit (clocking in at 16.7% increase in firepower).
Now, this doesn't settle the debate, as there are other pros and cons to both. For starters, the Cadian doctrine boosts non-blasts as well, while requiring the tank to stand still. Finally, the cadian doctrine insulates the tank from plasma overheats a lot more.
Simply put, the catachan doctrine increases firepower regardless of if you are moving, while the cadian doctrine perversely rewards being static. The tallarn doctrine, the other big firepower doctrine, boosts the tanks relative firepower when moving, but adds nothing when static.
So... what? I think if you are not running blasts, you go tallarn or cadian, depending on how aggressive you want to be. (keep in mind that the punisher is arguably the most effective turret, giving catachans no real bonus). If you are not running sponsons and a blast turret (or like heavy flamer sponsons) go Catachan. If you love plasma, go cadian. If you want to run a lot of different things while moving, go tallarn.
Finally, don't underestimate the role of psychology. Taking cadian will always encourage you as a player to stay still, even if you shouldn't.
Colonel Cross wrote: I want melee Catachans to be viable but I'm not seeing it. I'm sure it'll be fun. But it's not going to be good. I've tested it out with my buddy and even with full commitment it's just not good.
Ogryns and Catachans are described as quite friendly in the fluff. A unit of Bullgryns would make a very strong spear-tip for an assault army. You also get Straken, one of the strongest fighters Guard has ver had.
Polonius wrote: During an unusually boring conference call, I did some hand calculations to figure out the impact of the catachan doctrine on various blasts.
What does this mean? Simply put, it shows how dramatically this doctrine improves the fire power of vehicle blasts for catachans.
Hence why when the codex hit, I immediately sought to fill out a Battalion (12 CP yum!) fielding Blast Leman Russes, artillery and triple hell founds.
Just thing in the change with the Hellhound; approx 8 hits.. if this had a Str 6 AP-1 D1 Assault 16, 16" range... folks would be going nuts. But effectively, that is what it is.
I've since shaved off a few vehicles to field the trifecta of Assassins (Evy, Cally & Lux) with an Inquisitor (Smite Slinger!) in their own mini detachment.
...I'm guessing I can do that, right, as the assassins are in a different detachment, I still retain regimental doctrines.
During an unusually boring conference call, I did some hand calculations to figure out the impact of the catachan doctrine on various blasts.
We all know (or should know), that the reroll on a basic d6 turns the expected value from 3.5 (the straight average) to 4.25 (assuming you reroll everything under 4).
What about two dice, pick the highest, common on earthshakers. For them, the expected values is the sum of all 36 combinations (1,1..1,2...etc), but rerolling a single die in there changes those expcted values. to calculate that, for each combination, I created a table of six further options, based on the re-roll, and then added up the best result. So, for 1,2, the table would be 2,2,3,4,5,6; since if you roll a one on the re-roll, the best result is the two). While small, this reroll does boost the expected shots from 4.47 to 4.96, or roughly 4.5 to 5.
For two dice, add them together, I did something similar, although you can just add the high result of the initial pair to 3.5 when the low result is under 4. With the doctrine, the expected value jumps from 7 to 8.23, which is a huge jump, but unlike roll two dice take the highest, you get all of the benefit from the reroll.
I don't have the time to do three dice manually, nor the skills to automate it, but it would likely be an even bigger benefit, as more results would benefit from a reroll (as there are more dice, so more chances of 1-3), meaning that the increase will likely be smaller percentage wise, but even larger in absolute terms.
What does this mean? Simply put, it shows how dramatically this doctrine improves the fire power of vehicle blasts for catachans. For battle cannons and the like, you get 3/4 of an additional shot, which doesn't sound like much, but it's a 21.4% increase in overall firepower, which significantly overshadows the increase for re-rolling ones to hit (clocking in at 16.7% increase in firepower).
Now, this doesn't settle the debate, as there are other pros and cons to both. For starters, the Cadian doctrine boosts non-blasts as well, while requiring the tank to stand still. Finally, the cadian doctrine insulates the tank from plasma overheats a lot more.
Simply put, the catachan doctrine increases firepower regardless of if you are moving, while the cadian doctrine perversely rewards being static. The tallarn doctrine, the other big firepower doctrine, boosts the tanks relative firepower when moving, but adds nothing when static.
So... what? I think if you are not running blasts, you go tallarn or cadian, depending on how aggressive you want to be. (keep in mind that the punisher is arguably the most effective turret, giving catachans no real bonus). If you are not running sponsons and a blast turret (or like heavy flamer sponsons) go Catachan. If you love plasma, go cadian. If you want to run a lot of different things while moving, go tallarn.
Finally, don't underestimate the role of psychology. Taking cadian will always encourage you as a player to stay still, even if you shouldn't.
Great post and analysis.
I'm partial to the psychology point at the end. I've fallen into similar traps with my own playstyle before, and I know running as Tallarn would promote me to move more and ensure I'm playing to the objectives/mission rather than straight tabling.
Colonel Cross wrote: I want melee Catachans to be viable but I'm not seeing it. I'm sure it'll be fun. But it's not going to be good. I've tested it out with my buddy and even with full commitment it's just not good.
Ogryns and Catachans are described as quite friendly in the fluff. A unit of Bullgryns would make a very strong spear-tip for an assault army. You also get Straken, one of the strongest fighters Guard has ver had.
I used 3 Bullgryn, Straken, a Priest, Astropath, and 2 squads of guard. Bullgryn did well but I rolled like garbage so barely did anything. The guard ended up just turning into poxwalkers. Lol. Bullgryn are great. But Catachan guard aren't going to be anything strong just because of S4. FRFSRF within 12" is far more effective than getting 12 attacks at S4. Straken and a priest just dump more points into that 1 assault which is quite risky. It's totally fun. Just don't expect to win many games.
Blacksails wrote: gak, right. Got excited. Bleh, I miss my powerblobs.
What are you really losing by having 3x10 man squads these days? Commissars and priests are both auras now, so that isn't a problem. Orders can be but power blobs don't particularly need them to function. On the plus side, power swords are cheap now and you can get +1str Catachan fun. I would say melee Guard in in a really good place, even better than the old warrior weapons doctrine to give everyone lp/ccw.
plays way faster, only needs one order a turn for 30, and allows you to have more ablative wounds for your special/heavy weapons. If I could do a stratagem more than once a turn Id probably combine all my squads turn one and go from there, even if it spent half my command points.
Having to do 10+ infantry units individually is an absolute pain and I really miss blobbing up and moving them in groups of 3-5. Just speeds up moving and shooting quite a bit.
tag8833 wrote: 1) Am I right in reading that I can't take Valkyries in a Militarum Tempestus list without losing their regimental doctrines?
This was never responded to (a few pages back), and I had a similar questions about Bullgryns that didn't seem to receive any consensus. Gonna bump this topic a bit, because 1d4chan now states that ONLY scions, taurox primes, and tempestors are allowed in order to get regimental doctrines.
I want to say that this can't be the case, but would love for someone to clarify or get a solid answer from GW. Similarly, would this affect the ability to use tempestus stratagems as well?
Lastly, I was looking forward to buying/building out an all tempestus army at the beginning of 8th...but it's now established as being extremely cheesy/gamey... totally the downside of having "strong" units...
tag8833 wrote: 1) Am I right in reading that I can't take Valkyries in a Militarum Tempestus list without losing their regimental doctrines?
This was never responded to (a few pages back), and I had a similar questions about Bullgryns that didn't seem to receive any consensus. Gonna bump this topic a bit, because 1d4chan now states that ONLY scions, taurox primes, and tempestors are allowed in order to get regimental doctrines.
I want to say that this can't be the case, but would love for someone to clarify or get a solid answer from GW. Similarly, would this affect the ability to use tempestus stratagems as well?
Lastly, I was looking forward to buying/building out an all tempestus army at the beginning of 8th...but it's now established as being extremely cheesy/gamey... totally the downside of having "strong" units...
I think the rule intention is quite clear, although the wording can be read as ambiguous. The wordings on page 132 can be broken down thusly:
"...<REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain a Regimental Doctrine, so long as every unit in that Detachment (apart from the exceptions noted opposite) is drawn from the same regiment."
"...MILITARUM TEMPESTUS units do not themselves benefit from any Regimental Doctrine unless every unit in that Detachment is from the Militarum Tempestus..."
and under Advisors and Auxilla:
"The units listed below can be included in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment without preventing other units in that Detachment from gaining a Regimental Doctrine."
Now the only thing that really is causing a problem is the bracketed part in the first excerpt. It is not repeated in the second excerpt about Tempestus. However, I would argue that the next section about Auxilla will still apply. If you prevent doctrines by the inclusion of Auxilla, you are going directly against excerpt #3, which explicitly says that they do not prevent doctrines. On top of this, I would bet actual money that the intended effect is for Tempestus to be able to take Valkyries, as it is one of their key army builds. This is going to be in the first round of FAQs, as long as it comes onto GWs radar as an actual concern.
I got my book yesterday. Very exciting. I also got a message from my normal purveyor of plastic that GW is putting the snap fit cadians out to pasture.
For some reason I really like the idea of crusaders, with a priest they look like they can kick some serious MEQ butt. Especially if they get a charge off. They've got a 3+ invulnerable save, 2 attacks, and power swords. With their special ability they can haul ass on anything but a 1, moving an extra 6" per turn.
And technically, RAW you can give the Dagger Relic to the Priest, and he can choose the crusaders to accompany him on his flanking, since neither have a Regiment (or their Regiment is Adeptus Minostorum possibly)
And then you could give them the "TAKE COVER" stratagem to upgrade their save to a 2+ (it doesn't save armor save, so it looks like it applies to both?) when the enemy inevitable tries to shoot them off the table.
If he tries to CC them, you can use your acts of Faith to fight twice in your turn. And you'll be getting 3 attacks per Crusader (assuming the priest survives). Sure they're strength 3, but they're also -3 to armor save! These guys seem overall like a great counter to any enemy army's blender CC units.
I'm absolutely going to convert up a unit of 10! Only question is, what to use?
I'm thinking a box of skitarri torsos, on cadian legs, wielding some old Empire swords and shields I've got in my bits box with Empire Knight heads (yay for bits box!)
tag8833 wrote: 1) Am I right in reading that I can't take Valkyries in a Militarum Tempestus list without losing their regimental doctrines?
This was never responded to (a few pages back), and I had a similar questions about Bullgryns that didn't seem to receive any consensus. Gonna bump this topic a bit, because 1d4chan now states that ONLY scions, taurox primes, and tempestors are allowed in order to get regimental doctrines.
I want to say that this can't be the case, but would love for someone to clarify or get a solid answer from GW. Similarly, would this affect the ability to use tempestus stratagems as well?
Lastly, I was looking forward to buying/building out an all tempestus army at the beginning of 8th...but it's now established as being extremely cheesy/gamey... totally the downside of having "strong" units...
I think the rule intention is quite clear, although the wording can be read as ambiguous. The wordings on page 132 can be broken down thusly:
"...<REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain a Regimental Doctrine, so long as every unit in that Detachment (apart from the exceptions noted opposite) is drawn from the same regiment."
"...MILITARUM TEMPESTUS units do not themselves benefit from any Regimental Doctrine unless every unit in that Detachment is from the Militarum Tempestus..."
and under Advisors and Auxilla:
"The units listed below can be included in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment without preventing other units in that Detachment from gaining a Regimental Doctrine."
Now the only thing that really is causing a problem is the bracketed part in the first excerpt. It is not repeated in the second excerpt about Tempestus. However, I would argue that the next section about Auxilla will still apply. If you prevent doctrines by the inclusion of Auxilla, you are going directly against excerpt #3, which explicitly says that they do not prevent doctrines. On top of this, I would bet actual money that the intended effect is for Tempestus to be able to take Valkyries, as it is one of their key army builds. This is going to be in the first round of FAQs, as long as it comes onto GWs radar as an actual concern.
Thanks very much... I'm really happy with this answer, it seems to break this down pretty well. I had pretty much the same feeling about Valkyries, seeing as how they're so ingrained in the lore. Really hoping GW pushes an FAQ for this one.
Semi-related, are we at the point where plasma spam can be eased, and where meltas are going to be more widely considered? Plasma is still great for MEQ/TEQ/Primaris elimination, but I want to say that meltas are going to be king for vehicle removal going forward.
argonak wrote: I got my book yesterday. Very exciting. I also got a message from my normal purveyor of plastic that GW is putting the snap fit cadians out to pasture.
That would be disappointing, while having a dozen vehicles and Scions squads I only have 12 guard models and I'm trying to work out most cost efficient way to expand my options with a conscript squad and another two well equiped infantry squad, particularly as you only get one melta and plasma in each posable set. I also fancy having a Command Squad of snipers with a medikit as an alternative to Ratlings and issuing them the reroll wounds order each turn.
tag8833 wrote: 1) Am I right in reading that I can't take Valkyries in a Militarum Tempestus list without losing their regimental doctrines?
This was never responded to (a few pages back), and I had a similar questions about Bullgryns that didn't seem to receive any consensus. Gonna bump this topic a bit, because 1d4chan now states that ONLY scions, taurox primes, and tempestors are allowed in order to get regimental doctrines.
I want to say that this can't be the case, but would love for someone to clarify or get a solid answer from GW. Similarly, would this affect the ability to use tempestus stratagems as well?
Lastly, I was looking forward to buying/building out an all tempestus army at the beginning of 8th...but it's now established as being extremely cheesy/gamey... totally the downside of having "strong" units...
I think the rule intention is quite clear, although the wording can be read as ambiguous. The wordings on page 132 can be broken down thusly:
"...<REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain a Regimental Doctrine, so long as every unit in that Detachment (apart from the exceptions noted opposite) is drawn from the same regiment."
"...MILITARUM TEMPESTUS units do not themselves benefit from any Regimental Doctrine unless every unit in that Detachment is from the Militarum Tempestus..."
and under Advisors and Auxilla:
"The units listed below can be included in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment without preventing other units in that Detachment from gaining a Regimental Doctrine."
Now the only thing that really is causing a problem is the bracketed part in the first excerpt. It is not repeated in the second excerpt about Tempestus. However, I would argue that the next section about Auxilla will still apply. If you prevent doctrines by the inclusion of Auxilla, you are going directly against excerpt #3, which explicitly says that they do not prevent doctrines. On top of this, I would bet actual money that the intended effect is for Tempestus to be able to take Valkyries, as it is one of their key army builds. This is going to be in the first round of FAQs, as long as it comes onto GWs radar as an actual concern.
Thanks very much... I'm really happy with this answer, it seems to break this down pretty well. I had pretty much the same feeling about Valkyries, seeing as how they're so ingrained in the lore. Really hoping GW pushes an FAQ for this one.
Semi-related, are we at the point where plasma spam (in the context of scions) can be eased, and where meltas are going to be more widely considered? Plasma is still great for MEQ/TEQ/Primaris elimination, but I want to say that meltas are going to be king for vehicle removal going forward now that plasmas actually cost more.
Even at 13 points per gun, Plasma still beats Melta for average damage.
You get 8 plasma shots with D2, versus 4 melta shots D6. If all shots hit and wound, plasma gets 16 every time, while 4 melta average 14, with a 4-24 swing..
And its a difference of 4 points total. Plasma is also strong against a wider variety of targets. I'd take versatility and reliability over that swing any day, even for 4 more points. Melta does have that one more point of AP though, so that's something in its favor. There's no reason you can do a split either, and bring 3 plasma and 1 melta.
Melta only beats Plasma if you can get into half range. So really only if you put them on veterans in a Valkyrie. Because putting Scions in a Valkyrie is wasting your grav chut ability.
If you're playing with index too, you can also put melta on rough riders, which honestly looks like a pretty good option, although I haven't tried it.
Volley guns are cheap and the best stand and shoot gun for taking out infantry. They give the Scions a weapon that they can use when defending. Sure, that is not really their roll in a standard list but it can be useful in certain scenarios or if you are running a pure Tempestus list.
I found 4 of them in a 10 man stormtrooper squad tends to scare marines pretty good. I think they believe Im running them stock and thats just how many lasgun shots they get normally. Tricks noobs but other than that its basically just for clearing enemy infantry. Might help with clearing scouts or guardsmen off an objective though. I just like it because its a different weapon and essentially lets me FRFSRF from deepstrike.
Oh yeah and they would get the 6+ extra shots when within 12", thats pretty nice too. Rolling that many dice youre bound to get a few 6's.
For some reason I really like the idea of crusaders, with a priest they look like they can kick some serious MEQ butt. Especially if they get a charge off. They've got a 3+ invulnerable save, 2 attacks, and power swords. With their special ability they can haul ass on anything but a 1, moving an extra 6" per turn.
And technically, RAW you can give the Dagger Relic to the Priest, and he can choose the crusaders to accompany him on his flanking, since neither have a Regiment (or their Regiment is Adeptus Minostorum possibly)
And then you could give them the "TAKE COVER" stratagem to upgrade their save to a 2+ (it doesn't save armor save, so it looks like it applies to both?) when the enemy inevitable tries to shoot them off the table.
If he tries to CC them, you can use your acts of Faith to fight twice in your turn. And you'll be getting 3 attacks per Crusader (assuming the priest survives). Sure they're strength 3, but they're also -3 to armor save! These guys seem overall like a great counter to any enemy army's blender CC units.
I'm absolutely going to convert up a unit of 10! Only question is, what to use?
I'm thinking a box of skitarri torsos, on cadian legs, wielding some old Empire swords and shields I've got in my bits box with Empire Knight heads (yay for bits box!)
If only they could get the Catachan regiment strength bonus! Gah! I like your idea for converting them up. I don't have swords and Shields laying about. I wonder how easily skitarri torsos and capes fit on Cadian legs ... Anybody else have any ideas on how to convert these guys up? I think them and a couple Bullgryn would be a super fun combo.
For some reason I really like the idea of crusaders, with a priest they look like they can kick some serious MEQ butt. Especially if they get a charge off. They've got a 3+ invulnerable save, 2 attacks, and power swords. With their special ability they can haul ass on anything but a 1, moving an extra 6" per turn.
And technically, RAW you can give the Dagger Relic to the Priest, and he can choose the crusaders to accompany him on his flanking, since neither have a Regiment (or their Regiment is Adeptus Minostorum possibly)
And then you could give them the "TAKE COVER" stratagem to upgrade their save to a 2+ (it doesn't save armor save, so it looks like it applies to both?) when the enemy inevitable tries to shoot them off the table.
If he tries to CC them, you can use your acts of Faith to fight twice in your turn. And you'll be getting 3 attacks per Crusader (assuming the priest survives). Sure they're strength 3, but they're also -3 to armor save! These guys seem overall like a great counter to any enemy army's blender CC units.
I'm absolutely going to convert up a unit of 10! Only question is, what to use?
I'm thinking a box of skitarri torsos, on cadian legs, wielding some old Empire swords and shields I've got in my bits box with Empire Knight heads (yay for bits box!)
If only they could get the Catachan regiment strength bonus! Gah! I like your idea for converting them up. I don't have swords and Shields laying about. I wonder how easily skitarri torsos and capes fit on Cadian legs ... Anybody else have any ideas on how to convert these guys up? I think them and a couple Bullgryn would be a super fun combo.
The only issue with the Skitarii, looking at the sprue, is that the front chest piece has a huge AM logo on it. Which is kinda meh. I don't like the GSC outfits for crusaders either. I'm going to convert up just a normal Cadian wearing my old bits and see how that looks, before I pick up a Skitarri and GSC box to see what those can do.
Some of theo old Empire stuff would also probably be a natural fit as well. Depending on what GW still sells.
edit: Vanguard bits look really good. Removing the AM logos and putting on some eagles or a normal skull might be a good bet actually.
I've been thinking a lot about Creed, and what he brings vs. what you give up. I'm not sure he's an auto-take, even if you are running infantry heavy Cadians. Here's why: while he gets a lot for his points (third order, 12" order range, 2 CP, and the Warlord Trait that gives a bonus order on a 4+), he averages only a half order per turn more than two Company Commanders (which can help fill out detachments). Also, his trait precludes taking Grand Strategist, and farming CPs off of your stratagems. Depending on how many CPs you start with, you might end up with more from GS than from Creed's bonus, and GS also gives you a bonus re-roll to hit/wound/save. As few as six CPs will net you as many "bonus" CPs as Creed gives, and if you rock a brigade, a warlord with GS will bring in on average 4 bonus CPs. Keeping in mind that you can always buy orders on a cheap HQs, or even with CPs if needed, I'd avoid Creed and go with GS in any larger games.
It's pretty simple to build a Brigade with IG, and even very possible to run both a brigade and either a Spearhead or Supreme Command (for the lord of war), and either way you're looking at needing 4-6 HQ choices. I'd rather buy my orders at retail, and have more CPs to spend than have once super efficient order machine.
If you play where you pick warlord traits each game, then also keep in mind that there are some corner case traits which can be huge with a gunline. For example, Old Grudges can make a lot of your army more efficient against the toughest enemy unit, which can be nice when facing a Demon Primarch or superheavy.
I don't know if this has been stated yet. But Dagger Relic on Punisher w/ HB Tank Commander with a Bullgryn Melee squad turn 1 Reserve deploy and assault. Thoughts?
argonak wrote: Even at 13 points per gun, Plasma still beats Melta for average damage.
You get 8 plasma shots with D2, versus 4 melta shots D6. If all shots hit and wound, plasma gets 16 every time, while 4 melta average 14, with a 4-24 swing..
And its a difference of 4 points total. Plasma is also strong against a wider variety of targets. I'd take versatility and reliability over that swing any day, even for 4 more points. Melta does have that one more point of AP though, so that's something in its favor. There's no reason you can do a split either, and bring 3 plasma and 1 melta.
Melta only beats Plasma if you can get into half range. So really only if you put them on veterans in a Valkyrie. Because putting Scions in a Valkyrie is wasting your grav chut ability.
If you're playing with index too, you can also put melta on rough riders, which honestly looks like a pretty good option, although I haven't tried it.
Thanks for crunching the numbers, awesome analysis. So if I'm taking plenty of plasmas, what do you think should go on my taurox primes? Obviously the gatling cannons are fun for anti infantry clear, but would you lean battle cannon or missile rack between the two? Not really sure how common T8 is, but I'm liking the versatility of the missile launchers to switch between anti-horde or armor, even though they're coming in at 22 points more.
- GS only gives you the chance of a point for every stratagem. A small thing I guess, but something that needs to be calculated for if you use a lot of 2-3pt stratagems.
- The Superior Tactical Training warlord trait is actually pretty good. You can use the 4+ order on a conscript squad, using an order that was a 4+ anyway instead of downgrading a 100% order to a 4+.
- Kell is not that expensive. He is pretty much a powerfist/standard platoon commander with bodyguard abilities. Could keep Creed alive when he would otherwise die, saving you a slay the warlord.
Yeah, I'm not saying Creed is super good or anything but just a couple of points I noticed in his favour.
argonak wrote: Even at 13 points per gun, Plasma still beats Melta for average damage.
You get 8 plasma shots with D2, versus 4 melta shots D6. If all shots hit and wound, plasma gets 16 every time, while 4 melta average 14, with a 4-24 swing..
And its a difference of 4 points total. Plasma is also strong against a wider variety of targets. I'd take versatility and reliability over that swing any day, even for 4 more points. Melta does have that one more point of AP though, so that's something in its favor. There's no reason you can do a split either, and bring 3 plasma and 1 melta.
Melta only beats Plasma if you can get into half range. So really only if you put them on veterans in a Valkyrie. Because putting Scions in a Valkyrie is wasting your grav chut ability.
If you're playing with index too, you can also put melta on rough riders, which honestly looks like a pretty good option, although I haven't tried it.
Thanks for crunching the numbers, awesome analysis. So if I'm taking plenty of plasmas, what do you think should go on my taurox primes? Obviously the gatling cannons are fun for anti infantry clear, but would you lean battle cannon or missile rack between the two? Not really sure how common T8 is, but I'm liking the versatility of the missile launchers to switch between anti-horde or armor, even though they're coming in at 22 points more.
On the topic of melta-guns vs plasma I have done a big comparison in Polonius tactical topic here :
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730110.page#9460349 Plasma stands out as the best overall option provided you add tempestor prime for the critical re-rolls of but melta is still good at hunting big targets.
- GS only gives you the chance of a point for every stratagem. A small thing I guess, but something that needs to be calculated for if you use a lot of 2-3pt stratagems.
I thought GS works like the Ultramarines warlord trait and works per CP used, not stratagem.
The relic however is the one that lets you roll 1 dice per enemy stratagem regardless of the cost. Not sure if this works on CP used before the game or during deployment though.
I'm absolutely going to convert up a unit of 10! Only question is, what to use?
I'm thinking a box of skitarri torsos, on cadian legs, wielding some old Empire swords and shields I've got in my bits box with Empire Knight heads (yay for bits box!)
I'm planning to use Skitarii torsos and probably Scion legs (test kits should be arriving this week) so i'll let you know how it goes!
I'm not too bothered about the Admech symbol either, as it fits in with my overall Imperial theme.
Quick Questions about Regiments and "Other Books"...
Can I give my Elysians or DKOK from Forgeworld a regimental Doctrine?
"If your army is Battle Forged, all <REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment gain a Regimental Doctrine"
"If your chosen Regiment does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you may pick the doctrine that best represents your army"
I'm guessing yes???
Can I give my Index units (Rough Riders) Regimental Doctrines <CATACHAN>?
I'm guessing yes??
Elysian (aka TALLARN RD) units with their orders and DKOK/Rough Riders (aka CATACHAN RD) would be pretty strong I think
Can I give my Elysians or DKOK from Forgeworld a regimental Doctrine?
"If your army is Battle Forged, all <REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment gain a Regimental Doctrine"
"If your chosen Regiment does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you may pick the doctrine that best represents your army"
I'm guessing yes???
By RAW? yes. But this has been already been answered by GW in FB and even by designer in Twitter. Answer is:
Spoiler:
no.
But you are free to use Rough Riders with regimental doctrines. Do note that catachan doctrines affect either INFANTRY or VEHICLES so RRs dont get anything out of them.
Blacksails wrote: I'm glad I can combine infantry squads now, even though it costs 1CP for every 20 I want to put together. Never liked conscripts as a unit so I'll likely just powerblob it up with regular infantry squads.
It is only once per turn though, like all stratagems. It is not designed to build an army around, just save the special weapons from depleted squads and lower the kill points you give away.
One thing I was thinking about was this: do you have to pick relics as part of your list, or as part of deployment? It says before the battle, but at what point is that? At what point do you use the +relic stratagem? Do you take one relic in your list, but can use the stratagem and pick another relic when deploying? Mainly, I am wondering this because if you know your opponent before you pick relics, it allows you to tailor your list for the enemy in an allowed way, not the "this list is for vehicles" way. For example, you could pick the lost Cadia relic against chaos, but opt for something like a different sword if not, or save the CP entirely.
I assumed for tournament play you state your original relic on your army sheet at the start of the tournament. The 1CP stratagem would then be used after units have been placed and before turn 1 a la orbital bombardment. I'm going to be using Kurovs Aquila (is this an auto take?) as my primary relic all the time anyway but I'm trying to fit in a Cadian platoon commander into my otherwise all armoured Cadian Spearhead detachment so if I end up playing Chaos I'll spend the 1CP and give him the relic of Cadia. I might even recoup the CP thanks to Kurovs Aquila.
Going full inception but could I use 1 CP to reroll the 5+ required to recoup the Original 1CP, then try and roll a 5+ for that Stratagems CP...Statistically its not worth while but....
I'm pretty sure Kurov's Aquilla is an auto-take, or at least the default unless you have a damn good reason. There are still armies out there with very minimal CPs, so the return won't be high. Still though, even one "free" CP makes it worth it, right?
The laurels are probably the other heavy hitter. What makes them great is that you can put multiple orders on a single unit. It only works half the time, and there aren't a ton of IG units that really get a lot out of double orders. Maybe a combined squad, or a scion squad. Scions wouldn't mind Take Aim and Elimination protocol. the problem there, of course, is that scions usually only shoot once.
Teh relic of lost cadia is also really good, especially against chaos. Even normally, the reroll ones to wound (and reroll hits for units that moved) is a huge buff, especially since it's a 12" bubble.
Teh Dagger is a bit off, as it mostly replicates what scions (or assassins) do, but be mindful of times when this could be devestating.
Polonius wrote: I'm pretty sure Kurov's Aquilla is an auto-take, or at least the default unless you have a damn good reason. There are still armies out there with very minimal CPs, so the return won't be high. Still though, even one "free" CP makes it worth it, right?
The laurels are probably the other heavy hitter. What makes them great is that you can put multiple orders on a single unit. It only works half the time, and there aren't a ton of IG units that really get a lot out of double orders. Maybe a combined squad, or a scion squad. Scions wouldn't mind Take Aim and Elimination protocol. the problem there, of course, is that scions usually only shoot once.
Teh relic of lost cadia is also really good, especially against chaos. Even normally, the reroll ones to wound (and reroll hits for units that moved) is a huge buff, especially since it's a 12" bubble.
Teh Dagger is a bit off, as it mostly replicates what scions (or assassins) do, but be mindful of times when this could be devestating.
I think the Aquilla will always be taken, at least initially, but i'm not sure it's going to provide much overall. Will have to wait and see though.
The dagger for me is more of a support item. Nice easy way to keep a 10 man squad and commander off the table for 2 turns before grabbing an objective.
redbeast001 wrote: I don't know if this has been stated yet. But Dagger Relic on Punisher w/ HB Tank Commander with a Bullgryn Melee squad turn 1 Reserve deploy and assault. Thoughts?
I liked the idea but the infantry need to have the same <Regiment> name as the HQ. Bullgryns don't have a <Regiment> keyword option. (and you can't give the tank commander <militarum auxilla> regiment)
It is a good way to deepstrike a tank (commander) if you're not Tallarn. Hadn't thought of that. If he was <Catachan> you could have a 10 man S4 squad closer to your enemy than they'd like.
A lot of people are keen on using the Ambush stratagem to get punishers in range (either on their own or in a units of 3). I haven't seen anyone suggesting using Hellhounds or Devil Dogs. Getting them within 9" undamaged really makes the inferno cannon or Melta cannons hurt.
I initially was firmly in the Cadian Spearhead Detachment camp (Pask, a platoon commander, a Hydra and 2 LRBT) to compliment my Catachan Brigade but a Tallarn Outrider detachment (company commander 2 x Hellhounds, 1 x Devil Dogs, 5 x rough riders and a Deathstrike) is "only" 40 pts more and deepstriking those 4 Hellhound equivalents turn 1 within range then bringing the deathstrike on turn 4 to shoot is damned appealing!
redbeast001 wrote: I don't know if this has been stated yet. But Dagger Relic on Punisher w/ HB Tank Commander with a Bullgryn Melee squad turn 1 Reserve deploy and assault. Thoughts?
I liked the idea but the infantry need to have the same <Regiment> name as the HQ. Bullgryns don't have a <Regiment> keyword option. (and you can't give the tank commander <militarum auxilla> regiment)
It is a good way to deepstrike a tank (commander) if you're not Tallarn. Hadn't thought of that. If he was <Catachan> you could have a 10 man S4 squad closer to your enemy than they'd like.
A lot of people are keen on using the Ambush stratagem to get punishers in range (either on their own or in a units of 3). I haven't seen anyone suggesting using Hellhounds or Devil Dogs. Getting them within 9" undamaged really makes the inferno cannon or Melta cannons hurt.
I initially was firmly in the Cadian Spearhead Detachment camp (Pask, a platoon commander, a Hydra and 2 LRBT) to compliment my Catachan Brigade but a Tallarn Outrider detachment (company commander 2 x Hellhounds, 1 x Devil Dogs, 5 x rough riders and a Deathstrike) is "only" 40 pts more and deepstriking those 4 Hellhound equivalents turn 1 within range then bringing the deathstrike on turn 4 to shoot is damned appealing!
They only have to have the same <Regiment> keyword if your officer has a <Regiment> in the first place.
Polonius wrote: I'm pretty sure Kurov's Aquilla is an auto-take, or at least the default unless you have a damn good reason. There are still armies out there with very minimal CPs, so the return won't be high. Still though, even one "free" CP makes it worth it, right?
I like the relic power sword, but I do melee guard, and I'm going to probably have three relics every game I play.
In an effort to get that sweet sweet +1 when rolling for who goes first I think I'd be able to get my 103 model army down to 10 drops. (4xunits of rough riders, heavy use of Ambush Stratagem and some scions) This would involve starting 10 of my independent characters in a chimera (the definition of all my eggs)
On average how many drops have peoples opponents had for a 2000pt army?
Also how dodgy is putting 10 independent characters in a chimera (they would get out turn 1, which with 10 drops I'd hope to get first turn) Said Chimera would be hidden as much as possible and I'd be making heavy use of the Take cover stratagem if I didn't get first turn. Thoughts?
The Dagger of *mumblemumbleshawn* is a hilarious way to bring a Commissar and Bullgryns around with the Tallarn stratagems actually. Use the stratagem for 3 whatevers, then use the dagger for some bullgryns and a commissar to keep the whatevers in line. LOL!
daedalus wrote: I like the relic power sword, but I do melee guard, and I'm going to probably have three relics every game I play.
Yeah, I can definitely see myself doing the same. There are a lot of fun-looking relics in the book and I think it's a nice way to add a bit of extra flavour to characters.
I'm curious though - do you use this stratagem before or after doing Warlord traits?
Could you, for example, pick the Grand Strategist Warlord Trait and then use the extra-relic Stratagem, potentially getting some of those command points back?
daedalus wrote: I like the relic power sword, but I do melee guard, and I'm going to probably have three relics every game I play.
Yeah, I can definitely see myself doing the same. There are a lot of fun-looking relics in the book and I think it's a nice way to add a bit of extra flavour to characters.
I'm curious though - do you use this stratagem before or after doing Warlord traits?
Could you, for example, pick the Grand Strategist Warlord Trait and then use the extra-relic Stratagem, potentially getting some of those command points back?
It says the CP refund effect is while your "warlord is on the battlefield," so I doubt it. You could get the 2 cp back for preliminary bombardment though since that's after setup. Any CP spent while the warlord is in a transport would also not be eligible unless my understanding of transport rules is borked.
argonak wrote: Even at 13 points per gun, Plasma still beats Melta for average damage.
You get 8 plasma shots with D2, versus 4 melta shots D6. If all shots hit and wound, plasma gets 16 every time, while 4 melta average 14, with a 4-24 swing..
And its a difference of 4 points total. Plasma is also strong against a wider variety of targets. I'd take versatility and reliability over that swing any day, even for 4 more points. Melta does have that one more point of AP though, so that's something in its favor. There's no reason you can do a split either, and bring 3 plasma and 1 melta.
Melta only beats Plasma if you can get into half range. So really only if you put them on veterans in a Valkyrie. Because putting Scions in a Valkyrie is wasting your grav chut ability.
If you're playing with index too, you can also put melta on rough riders, which honestly looks like a pretty good option, although I haven't tried it.
Thanks for crunching the numbers, awesome analysis. So if I'm taking plenty of plasmas, what do you think should go on my taurox primes? Obviously the gatling cannons are fun for anti infantry clear, but would you lean battle cannon or missile rack between the two? Not really sure how common T8 is, but I'm liking the versatility of the missile launchers to switch between anti-horde or armor, even though they're coming in at 22 points more.
On the topic of melta-guns vs plasma I have done a big comparison in Polonius tactical topic here :
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730110.page#9460349 Plasma stands out as the best overall option provided you add tempestor prime for the critical re-rolls of but melta is still good at hunting big targets.
Awesome analysis! Sounds like I'll have to pepper in some meltas for "spot treating" then. Shame that Plasmas are so ubiquitous now, even with the point increase.
Anything similar to this kind of analysis for the Taurox Prime, w/ missile launchers vs. battle cannon vs. gatling? Really liking the missile launcher's flexibility, but it's expensive as heck...
Taurox Prime doesn’t really have a role anymore after the Russ buff. I did the points spent per wound caused chart for every unit and weapon option in the new book. It still does extraordinarily well vs GEQ and well against everything short of T8 3+ multiwound, but it suffers from doctrine disadvantage among other things like range, negative modifiers from movement (and it needs to move due to awful range) and not benefiting from orders in the same degree. Even in the optimal situations where range or movement issues are ignored and we act like doctrines and orders don’t exist, there are options that pull same and better numbers. Finally, in a meta where some people spam Gatlings and Hurricane Bolters on Guilliman’s Stormravens, it’s an advantage to have T8.
I say that with a degree of sadness, since I had 7 painted for me based on the index rules.
Therion wrote: Taurox Prime doesn’t really have a role anymore after the Russ buff. I did the points spent per wound caused chart for every unit and weapon option in the new book. It still does extraordinarily well vs GEQ and well against everything short of T8 3+ multiwound, but it suffers from doctrine disadvantage among other things like range, negative modifiers from movement (and it needs to move due to awful range) and not benefiting from orders in the same degree. Even in the optimal situations where range or movement issues are ignored and we act like doctrines and orders don’t exist, there are options that pull same and better numbers. Finally, in a meta where some people spam Gatlings and Hurricane Bolters on Guilliman’s Stormravens, it’s an advantage to have T8.
I say that with a degree of sadness, since I had 7 painted for me based on the index rules.
Ah, guess I should have mentioned that I'm playing pure tempestus for the most part. I am envious about the Leman Russ' being so great now, but I've gotta stick to my elite stormtroopers. Curious about which weapon loadouts you decided to go with for your 7 though, what'd they end up being?
ajax_xaja wrote: Ah, guess I should have mentioned that I'm playing pure tempestus for the most part. I am envious about the Leman Russ' being so great now, but I've gotta stick to my elite stormtroopers. Curious about which weapon loadouts you decided to go with for your 7 though, what'd they end up being?
The long range fire support build Taurox Prime (AC, ML) got a buff, but also got 5 points more expensive. It's fairly easy for something to be within 24" and thus getting the Extra shots on 6's.
One the other hand it is still kibble for imperial knights thanks to T6 making it more susceptible to Gatling cannons, and still feels to anti-synergize with scions on account of the 50% must start on the board rule, and the Taurox not really being something good at standing up to enemy fire power.
The S4 spam Taurox Prime (Gatling, SB, HSVG) got 2 points cheaper, and also a bit better. And it was seemingly the superior build before (Frequently showing up in top tourney lists). I'd say the Russ's buffs definitely make it a better source of fire power, and LR's have more staying power thanks to extra wounds and T8. But the Taurox Prime got better overall, and if it worked for you before, it will still work, but a Lemun Russ definitely seems to synergize better with Scions.
argonak wrote: Even at 13 points per gun, Plasma still beats Melta for average damage.
You get 8 plasma shots with D2, versus 4 melta shots D6. If all shots hit and wound, plasma gets 16 every time, while 4 melta average 14, with a 4-24 swing..
And its a difference of 4 points total. Plasma is also strong against a wider variety of targets. I'd take versatility and reliability over that swing any day, even for 4 more points. Melta does have that one more point of AP though, so that's something in its favor. There's no reason you can do a split either, and bring 3 plasma and 1 melta.
Melta only beats Plasma if you can get into half range. So really only if you put them on veterans in a Valkyrie. Because putting Scions in a Valkyrie is wasting your grav chut ability.
If you're playing with index too, you can also put melta on rough riders, which honestly looks like a pretty good option, although I haven't tried it.
Thanks for crunching the numbers, awesome analysis. So if I'm taking plenty of plasmas, what do you think should go on my taurox primes? Obviously the gatling cannons are fun for anti infantry clear, but would you lean battle cannon or missile rack between the two? Not really sure how common T8 is, but I'm liking the versatility of the missile launchers to switch between anti-horde or armor, even though they're coming in at 22 points more.
Between the two I'd go Battle cannon. But I think if you're playing straight MT, you need to bring a Valkyrie (although I don't have one yet so this is pure conjecture). It can give you late game mobility because its a flying brick that nobody is scared of, and yet it does come with a couple heavy weapons. The bad thing about MT with Valkyries is sure you're wasting 2 points per man on grav chutes you're not using, but the nice thing is now you can drop and get into short range for your melta or hotshot lasguns.
That said I don't think the Missile Launchers are bad choice at all either. I'd just rather have a couple tauroxes with gatlin guns and HSVGs, and then a couple more with Battlecannon and autocannon instead. Send the gatlin guns charging forward to support your grav chute troops, and keep the battlecannon and autocannon at range to plink away at BS3+.
Can I give my Elysians or DKOK from Forgeworld a regimental Doctrine?
"If your army is Battle Forged, all <REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment gain a Regimental Doctrine"
"If your chosen Regiment does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you may pick the doctrine that best represents your army"
I'm guessing yes???
By RAW? yes. But this has been already been answered by GW in FB and even by designer in Twitter. Answer is:
Spoiler:
no.
But you are free to use Rough Riders with regimental doctrines. Do note that catachan doctrines affect either INFANTRY or VEHICLES so RRs dont get anything out of them.
What? Even RAW, this should be a no. They lack the <REGIMENT> key word. They only have the ELYSIAN and DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG keywords.
Can I give my Elysians or DKOK from Forgeworld a regimental Doctrine?
"If your army is Battle Forged, all <REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment gain a Regimental Doctrine" "If your chosen Regiment does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you may pick the doctrine that best represents your army"
I'm guessing yes???
By RAW? yes. But this has been already been answered by GW in FB and even by designer in Twitter. Answer is:
Spoiler:
no.
But you are free to use Rough Riders with regimental doctrines. Do note that catachan doctrines affect either INFANTRY or VEHICLES so RRs dont get anything out of them.
What? Even RAW, this should be a no. They lack the <REGIMENT> key word. They only have the ELYSIAN and DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG keywords.
It's a bit weird how it's defined. The literal wording is "If your chosen regiment does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you may pick the doctrine that you feel best represents your army". What if I would choose the regiment DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG? They don't have a doctrine, and by just following this, would get one. Of course, this leads to other problems (as to whether or not DKOK is a regiment ruleswise, if they can apply rules from the codex and other things, if only the <REGIMENT> units they can take [Tank Commanders, Earthshaker Carriages etc.] would get all benefits...). I wouldn't use the doctrines in the book right now because of these issues, and wait for some FAQ or update.
Also, FWIW, I probably also wouldn't listen to designers on twitter and apply what they say, and wait for FAQ's anyway.
3 company commanders
3 primaris psykers
3 commissars
3 astropaths
10 infantry squads with plasma gun
2 30-man conscript squads
6 rough riders squads with double plasma gun
10 heavy weapons squads with lascannon and 2 mortars.
It leaves about 150pts left over at 2K. Enough to bolt on some scions or Celestine or some snipers.
My question is, what do I spend all the command points on? I have 21, then will be taking kurovs Aquila and the grand strategist warlord trait, so I should basically NEVER run short. My thoughts at the moment are: re-drawing Maelstrom cards, re rolling dice and buying relics.
I'm not sure whether to go cadian or tallarn tactics - both have their advantages and unique stratagems. Any help?
DoomMouse wrote: My question is, what do I spend all the command points on? I have 21, then will be taking kurovs Aquila and the grand strategist warlord trait, so I should basically NEVER run short. My thoughts at the moment are: re-drawing Maelstrom cards, re rolling dice and buying relics.
You should have no problem spending all of those CP. Consider these:
- Fire on my position. If you take a few voxes, this can really damage enemy elite infantry that have charged you. 3cp is quite expensive but you could get some use out of it if you have the voxes.
- Consolidate squads. Only once per turn but could save you a few kill points.
- Take cover. The best one. You should probably use this every enemy shooting phase, maybe even in melee if it isn't just going to be a walk over.
- Preliminary bombardment. I can see this working against large armies so you get lots of rolls. Not great but still a bit extra damage.
- Grenadiers. You can get a nice amount of damage out of a 10 man squad.
- Inspired tactics. Sometimes you just need that extra order and the officer is dead or out of position.
- Fight to the death. Not really great but I guess could be useful to save some objective grabbers who have no commissar.
- Vengeance for Cadia. Great damage increase against chaos.
As for unique ones:
- Ambush. Pretty much your best option for moving across the board. An officer and two infantry squads may not be great if used on turn 1 but are cheap enough that you can leave them off until turn 3-4, when they can have a great effect.
- Overlapping fields of fire. Great for when something big needs to die.
As for Tallarn vs Cadian, it really comes down to if you want to move or not. Cadians make a great gunline but get nothing when they want to move about. Tallarn are the opposite, having great speed but nothing when staying still. It depends on play style really.
Cheers, that's a really good synopsis. I don't have the codex (yet!) but I'd heard of most of those. I guess when taken together we have quite a lot of ways to spend CPs haha.
- I'd not heard of fire on my position. Sounds expensive if you need voxes and, is it any good?
- What would be good to use take cover on? Conscripts? I guess +1 save is good, but seems a lot stronger on super heavies and the like. I mean it sounds good, but wouldn't have called it the best?
- Preliminary bombardment sounds great depending on the opponent.
- grenadiers sounds good on paper, but isn't FRFSRF just flat out better on infantry squads or conscripts? That'd make inspired tactics more handy.
- vengeance for cadia sounds awesome Vs chaos
The cadia/tallarn debate I'm having is really close. Extra movement is more interesting and potentially very powerful, and the ambush stratagem is lovely, but the cadian doctrine combined with 'overlapping fields' is an insane buff to my HWTs. It's a really tough choice! They'll both be fun to try out
3 company commanders
3 primaris psykers
3 commissars
3 astropaths
10 infantry squads with plasma gun
2 30-man conscript squads
6 rough riders squads with double plasma gun
10 heavy weapons squads with lascannon and 2 mortars.
It leaves about 150pts left over at 2K. Enough to bolt on some scions or Celestine or some snipers.
My question is, what do I spend all the command points on? I have 21, then will be taking kurovs Aquila and the grand strategist warlord trait, so I should basically NEVER run short. My thoughts at the moment are: re-drawing Maelstrom cards, re rolling dice and buying relics.
I'm not sure whether to go cadian or tallarn tactics - both have their advantages and unique stratagems. Any help?
Nice army. I'm currently painting 6x10 man infantry squads for 1 Brigade. I feel your pain. Have you thought about replacing one or two of your rough riders with Devil Dogs or Hellhounds (replacing 3 would take up the 150pts) Using Ambush you could get these within 9" turn 1 allowing the inferno cannon or Melta cannon to do some serious damage. The enemy would have to deal with them, slowing down their advance on your gunline and lascannons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This guy did a pretty comprehensive rundown of the stratagems.
I hadn't considered hellhounds etc to be honest. They could be an interesting alternative! I tend to try not to use any vehicles if I'm going mainly infantry though as it means opponents have to waste lascannons on HWTs or rough riders .
I'm tempted to try and use ambush with conscripts though...
Cheers for the stratagems link, I'll check that out!
Fire on my position and preliminary bombardment are both a bit weak, which is probably why they aren't talked about much. They can throw out a few mortal wounds but use a lot of CP for what they do. If you have excess CP and already have the voxes though, they are alright.
Take cover can be pretty good to save your characters from snipers or to make those conscripts absorb a bit more fire. Another use would be to lower the damage an infantry squad takes so that the special/heavy survives and can consolidate next turn. The main advantage is that you use it after the opponent declares the target, which helps decision making.
Don't forget that grenadiers isn't an order, so can be combined with orders. I imagine vengeance for cadia plus grenades could be nice. Sure, frfsrf is better in most cases but not all.
Regimental choice is tough. However, don't write off picking both! A Tallarn forward brigade and a Cadian gunline brigade could work well. Just be sure to make it easy to tell them apart. Even just painting the base edges in different colours could be enough.
I look at your list, and I wish there was a way to split it between your infantry squads, which woudl love to be tallarn, and the heavy weapons, which 100% should be cadian. I think the doctrines more or less even out (shooting after advancing is nice, but so is true twinlinked with take aim).
The cadian relic is bonkers good, and really will help your mobile elements, and the Cadian stratagem is also potent for bringing down tough units. If you have the rough riders, I think that lessens the need for ambush somewhat, as you have some "deep strike" elements (and you can always take the dagger if you want).
I think, in the end, Cadian could be slightly stronger, but I think Tallarn will be more fun, and lends itself to a more aggressive approach. Advancing with conscripts and giving them FRFSRF alone is worth the price of admission.
I think if you went cadian, I'd try to shoehorn in some lascannons into the infantry squads, because with 60 conscripts and 10 squads, not everything needs to be mobile, and nobody has every said "I have too many lascannons."
OTOH, if you went pure Tallan, I'd throw plasma pistols on as many chracters as you can, as you'll get into range a lot easier.
Wow, so much good advice! Cheers guys. Those mortal wound strats do seem to only be borderline worth it now I've read them properly. You're basically trading out CPs for mortal wounds at around a 1:1 ratio... The grenadiers one does seem to lend itself to synergy with orders, character auras and other strats now you've pointed it out!
To be honest, having one brigade of each would be doable. I'd just put 6 HWTs in the cadian one and swap some plasma guns for lascannons for the cadian infantry squads. It does feel a bit gamey though, so I'd not want to do it outside a GT or something though.
What's this cadian relic? Thought I'd heard of all the good ones.
DoomMouse wrote: Wow, so much good advice! Cheers guys. Those mortal wound strats do seem to only be borderline worth it now I've read them properly. You're basically trading out CPs for mortal wounds at around a 1:1 ratio... The grenadiers one does seem to lend itself to synergy with orders, character auras and other strats now you've pointed it out!
To be honest, having one brigade of each would be doable. I'd just put 6 HWTs in the cadian one and swap some plasma guns for lascannons for the cadian infantry squads. It does feel a bit gamey though, so I'd not want to do it outside a GT or something though.
What's this cadian relic? Thought I'd heard of all the good ones.
Relic of lost Cadia: Once per game, re-roll all hit and wound rolls of 1 for Cadian units within 12″ of the bearer. Re-roll all failed hit and wound rolls for Cadian units targeting Chaos units.
It can boost the accuracy of your mobile units, and helps everything wound.
Fire on My Position lets a vox operator call an artillery barrage on their position.It's ok - I'm not certain it is worth the points.
Take Cover is 1 CP and is good on almost everything. Whatever you are really worried about dying but need in the next turn.
I'm going to take Preliminary Bombardment for a test spin but it sounds like an Ork players worst nightmare
When it comes to Cadian versus Tallarn I think it comes down to how mobile you want to be on the battlefield. Tallarn is great for city fighting but you need to keep moving to take advantage of the abilities. They love lght tanks like the Hellhound. Cadian loves a good firing line and all the plasma you can carry.
malamis wrote: One nice detail I only noticed recently is that Tank Commanders, the MoO and MoF are officers; which means they can take command squads as well.
Tooling around a few Tank Commanders to have 'enough' 8 point snipers is suddenly very appealing.
I'm curious, why go for command snipers instead of ratlings? I get that rats are more fragile, but I think the combination of infiltrate and shoot and scoot make up for that.
I'm curious, why go for command snipers instead of ratlings? I get that rats are more fragile, but I think the combination of infiltrate and shoot and scoot make up for that.
The Cadian Doctrine plus Take Aim! lets them re-roll all hits, which I think makes them a bit more appealing than ratlings. For most other regiments ratlings are probably the better buy, though.
I will always have a soft spot for fire on my target after an apocalypse game I once played.
I was defending with my Guard against my friends combination of different chapters. Lots of armour, a thunderhawk, deep striking deathwing, jump pack blood angels, outflanking land raiders, the works. It was really going to be an apocalyptic battle.
The table was arranged in a deep, lengthways fashion with varying layers of defence. It started as ruins and such, changing to trench lines before ending in an uphill slog to a fortress. The idea was for him to advance across the board and take said fortress. Anyway, I deployed a couple of platoons in the ruins to slow down the main advance, which was some sort of scary vindicator formation and a lot of jump marines. They got slaughtered very, very quickly but at the end of the first turn the vox caster had somehow survived. There was an ability I had from the Emperor's Shield formation where if I passed a LD test on a vox caster then I could call down an apocalyptic barrage on him with no scatter. I blew so many marines up that I just love the idea to this day.
It is a shame that it is so weak/expensive now. I guess it is better than it being OP though.
I'm curious, why go for command snipers instead of ratlings? I get that rats are more fragile, but I think the combination of infiltrate and shoot and scoot make up for that.
The Cadian Doctrine plus Take Aim! lets them re-roll all hits, which I think makes them a bit more appealing than ratlings. For most other regiments ratlings are probably the better buy, though.
Interesting. My rule of thumb is that anything that relis on an order has an extra 15pts in cost, which for such a cheap unit is crippling.
That said, Cadians get a lot of orders to throw around, and a mess of snipers rerolling ones due to the relic of lost cadia could force a lot of mortal wounds.
This is the list Im going to play mostly because I have all the exact models in DKOK unless of course its just a pain for my opponents and way to strong.
Brigade (regiment Cadian)
HQ-Company commander-kurov Aquila(relic), bolt pistol, grand strategist(warlord trait)
HQ-Knight commander pask-punisher- hull lascannon
HQ-primarus psyker- night schroud/psychic barrier- force staff
Fast attack-hellhound- hull flamer
Fast attack x2- Tauros venator- twin linked lascannons
Heavy support- cyclops demo vehicles x3
Heavy support- earthshaker carriage battery x2
Heavy support- manticore
Heavy support- Leman russ- executioner
Heavy support- sabre defense searchlight
manticore-basilisk-basilisk-
bodyguard-company commander-searchlight-commissar
pask-executioner-conscripts-tauros-tauros
infantry-primarus--7in back from demos--astropath-hellhound
infantry-infantry -7in-demo-6in-demo-6in-demo-7in-infantry-infantry
so that's the setup. meaning anyone who charges the front Cyclops line takes a massive amount of mortal wounds damage. I will use the astropath and primaris to make the Cyclops extremely hard to shoot down and after I can use those to buff up the hellhound to 2+ sv and executioner tank to -2 to hit with smoke and fire order. The bodyguard eats wounds on pask/primarus/or company commander (if in range). The company commander farms command points and gives orders to the 3x infantry platoon that I will combine eventually and the commissar keeps the 2x infantry and conscript blob in line. Obviously the scions all deepstrike and take out their appropriate targets with the prime giving orders and hopefully doubling up on orders w his relic for reroll 1 and reroll to wound w a chance at triple shot. The tauros and hellhound will zoom around to get shots on targets and gain tauros invul saves and the leman russes will stay put if they have a shot for the cadian doctrine of reroll 1s.
vipoid wrote: What do you guys think of the different Doctrines?
And do you think any of them are best suited to particular builds?
without some faqs fixing valhallan or steel legion(should be our mech regiment). (send in next wave not costing reinforcement points and allowing disembark and embarking with the steel legion order) there is really only 3 very competitive doctrines (not counting tempestus which I still consider separate) and all three favor certain builds.
cadians is strong because I gives universal reroll 1 to hit favoring heavy use of plasma and it comes with 2 strong characters in pask and creed. it doesn't hurt that their relic, order, and stratagem are all decent. This regiment favors gunlines
catachan is strong because it gives you a greater chance at more shots with variable shot weapons. This one prefers artillery and flamers. They also have 2 strong characters (marbo where are you!!!) that further reinforces this doctrine with straken giving more atks on 4 str troops and harker providing that reroll 1s that's so beneficial. Its not that catachan makes guard a melee army but they can handle their own en masse. They shine with artillery and screens w flamers.
Tallarn is strong because it provides a lot of mobility and makes a few units that aren't good with any other regiment decent. their unique stratagem mixed with their doctrine provides a double wollop of fast hard hitting units that don't suffer -1 to hit from moving. units like devil dogs and sentinals are decent as well. sponsons are great here as well since they don't suffer from -1 to hit with heavy and moving. This is more your tank company army because it makes every vehicle better.
I'm curious, why go for command snipers instead of ratlings? I get that rats are more fragile, but I think the combination of infiltrate and shoot and scoot make up for that.
The Cadian Doctrine plus Take Aim! lets them re-roll all hits, which I think makes them a bit more appealing than ratlings. For most other regiments ratlings are probably the better buy, though.
Interesting. My rule of thumb is that anything that relis on an order has an extra 15pts in cost, which for such a cheap unit is crippling.
That said, Cadians get a lot of orders to throw around, and a mess of snipers rerolling ones due to the relic of lost cadia could force a lot of mortal wounds.
Rerolling 1s for hits and thens 1s to wound so as to fish for the mortal wounds is fairly helpful. There's also the factor of ratlings considerably lower toughness profile, getting wounded on 2s from bolters and heavy bolters unlike the Gmen who cost 1 point more, and effectively have the same armor result when in cover.
The only plus for ratlings is their scout deploy; it's notable to be sure but their even greater fragility, means it could even be a liability that you're paying 1 point more per dead marine average compared to static Cadian CS teams *without* orders.
That and they're metal/finecast. Hence, Cadian Snipers all the day long here
vipoid wrote: What do you guys think of the different Doctrines?
And do you think any of them are best suited to particular builds?
I agree with Gungo, but to put it simply:
Catachans love vehicle blasts/flamers, regardless of if they move or not.
Cadians love static shooting.
Tallarns allow more/better shooting when moving.
The second tier are:
Vostroyans get better range and a +1 to hit strategem.
Valhallans keep units effective even after being shot up. So, not really more durable, but dont' degrade as badly.
Mordians get bonuses to overwatch.
Steel legion has longer range rapid fire, slightly more durable tanks, and some transport tricks.
Anyone tried Hellhounds and Devil dogs yet? They actually seem pretty good for the cost now, especially since the devil dog's main cannon is an assault weapon, which means it can move and shoot without penalty. The codex suggests running them in pairs of Hellhound/Devil Dogs and Im actually tempted to try it as an aggressive element to tie up the opponent as my infantry and tanks rumble up the board.
Tanks are all probably going to be Tallarn or Valhallan. I really like how tough the Valhallan tanks are to shut down since in my meta people like to cripple one tank and move on to the next. With a couple tech priests I can essentially force people to kill my tanks or risk theyre back up to full effect even from potentially a single wound between jury rig and tech priests. Alternatively Tallarn make my tanks far more aggressive and I like being more mobile with my army. Would match my metallica Skitarii pretty well tactics wise as well. I hate gunline guard with a passion and it annoys me to no end that a major chunk of my army is cadians saddled with that doctrine.
Either one would work well with hellhound variants I think. Vallhallans must be killed or they will keep chasing you down, Tallarn are just stupid fast and capable of outflanking your opponent.
As a random aside, anyone else pleased by all the little tactics advice blurbs the IG codex has in it? I know most were in previous books but I really like how theyre placed throughout the book, like theyre there to warn players about potential pitfalls units have. Theres one under the ogryn entry for example that talks about the risks of running an army purely meant to assault will get shot up that I got a good laugh out of, considering we see so many people complain that pure melee has such a struggle against IG. Theyre pretty solid big picture advice and I noticed a lot of the Tactica Imperialis and Solar Macharius quots tend to echo things I've heard as advice on these very forums.
The Tactica Imperialis is a giant collection of treatise which would take up buildings worth of space. It is collected from throughout history and from all over the Galaxy, with most people only having a small part of it at any one time. So, forum advice could be a canonical part of the Tactica Imperialis!
On the subject of Hellhounds, I am tempted to run Tallarn Hellhounds with bolters. You are not forced to close to 8" like you would be with a flamer hull mount, allowing you to kite at 16". That is a pretty decent range to engage an enemy from, as it forces them to make a 9" charge whilst eating inferno overwatch. They also seem like a good unit to use with Ambush. The problem I have been having when deciding on Ambush units how to make them not just die after shooting once. With any melta vehicles you want to be within 12", which is dangerously close to the enemy and can lead to you just getting charged and tied in melee. Another thing to think about is track guards. Expensive at 10 pts but will keep your inferno cannon kiting effectively until the tank dies.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Anyone tried Hellhounds and Devil dogs yet? They actually seem pretty good for the cost now, especially since the devil dog's main cannon is an assault weapon, which means it can move and shoot without penalty. The codex suggests running them in pairs of Hellhound/Devil Dogs and Im actually tempted to try it as an aggressive element to tie up the opponent as my infantry and tanks rumble up the board.
I've never really stopped loving hellhounds since 5th edition. The reduction in damage and increase in shots is an overall improvement for them against their preferred target (not-vehicles) and they didn't go up in price, so I'm considering it an win-win. I run mine with heavy bolter so I can kite things at max range. I don't really do the variants though. Just never had any interest in them.
I haven't even considered how they combine with doctrines. Mixing forces might be fluffy, but it kind of feels unnecessary to me to min-max the doctrines at this point. I genuinely have basically everything I could ever want.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Anyone tried Hellhounds and Devil dogs yet? They actually seem pretty good for the cost now, especially since the devil dog's main cannon is an assault weapon, which means it can move and shoot without penalty. The codex suggests running them in pairs of Hellhound/Devil Dogs and Im actually tempted to try it as an aggressive element to tie up the opponent as my infantry and tanks rumble up the board.
I've never really stopped loving hellhounds since 5th edition. The reduction in damage and increase in shots is an overall improvement for them against their preferred target (not-vehicles) and they didn't go up in price, so I'm considering it an win-win. I run mine with heavy bolter so I can kite things at max range. I don't really do the variants though. Just never had any interest in them.
I haven't even considered how they combine with doctrines. Mixing forces might be fluffy, but it kind of feels unnecessary to me to min-max the doctrines at this point. I genuinely have basically everything I could ever want.
Im mainly looking at other regiments because Cadian and Catachan vehicles feel like a bit of overkill for my meta and dont really take much strategy to make work. With Tallarn and Valhallans I'll actually have to make a decision besides "do I stay still/reroll a dice" so I think theyll be more fun and rewarding to play.
Not to knock Catachan/Cadian players of course, I just find their tank abilities a bit boring to use. I'm basically trying to keep myself from being a boring gunline player and the Cadian doctrine just tempts me way too hard to stay still and reroll 1's.
I am hopeful for a quick FW index update, although I know it'll be 9th before we get it. The Artemia Hellhound was awesome. For +7pts you got a reroll on number of shots. It really helped power up the Hellhound a bit.
I doubt FW updates anything. I am still waiting for their promised datasheets in their last faq from June.
If anything it was said chapter approved will have forgeworld updates within the book. I expect those datasheets to be included in there and several point adjustments and rules changes. But then again that is rumoured due in December.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Anyone tried Hellhounds and Devil dogs yet? They actually seem pretty good for the cost now, especially since the devil dog's main cannon is an assault weapon, which means it can move and shoot without penalty. The codex suggests running them in pairs of Hellhound/Devil Dogs and Im actually tempted to try it as an aggressive element to tie up the opponent as my infantry and tanks rumble up the board.
I've never really stopped loving hellhounds since 5th edition. The reduction in damage and increase in shots is an overall improvement for them against their preferred target (not-vehicles) and they didn't go up in price, so I'm considering it an win-win. I run mine with heavy bolter so I can kite things at max range. I don't really do the variants though. Just never had any interest in them.
I haven't even considered how they combine with doctrines. Mixing forces might be fluffy, but it kind of feels unnecessary to me to min-max the doctrines at this point. I genuinely have basically everything I could ever want.
Im mainly looking at other regiments because Cadian and Catachan vehicles feel like a bit of overkill for my meta and dont really take much strategy to make work. With Tallarn and Valhallans I'll actually have to make a decision besides "do I stay still/reroll a dice" so I think theyll be more fun and rewarding to play.
Not to knock Catachan/Cadian players of course, I just find their tank abilities a bit boring to use. I'm basically trying to keep myself from being a boring gunline player and the Cadian doctrine just tempts me way too hard to stay still and reroll 1's.
play tallarn its the most varied and makes certain units like sentinals decent. and you can have fun with deepstriking units without going the scion route.
The cadia/tallarn debate I'm having is really close. Extra movement is more interesting and potentially very powerful, and the ambush stratagem is lovely, but the cadian doctrine combined with 'overlapping fields' is an insane buff to my HWTs. It's a really tough choice! They'll both be fun to try out
Why not both? Cadian infantry battalion/bde + tallarn spearhead. Two great tastes. Tastes great together.
Any opinions on bolter sergeants? +1str for 1pt seems ok. I've been thinking about 60 infnatry to make a Tallarn brigade, with bolter and plasma. All three guns have the same range and type, which seems good to me. The idea is to advance around and shoot at 12", probably screening for tanks. Have been considering voxes too, so that there is a lot greater freedom of movement and you don't have to cluster around officers.
I'm not modelling any weapon choices that doesn't already have a miniature in current production. Don't want to have to snap the things off next edition when we lose them again.
Also, I've got plasma pistols and power swords in my infantry.
I have boltguns on all my SGTs in squads with heavy weapons. My assaulty squads keep the las pistol and chainsword. But now I'm thinking I'll make a couple SGTs with power axes since Catachans are S4.
I run bolters on most of my sargeants, I like having a standard range for all my guardsmen and laspistols never do anything of note anyways. Considering I run infantry, and the cost of all my bolters usually adds up to maybe a melta gun, I see it as no real loss.
Youre not even losing melee attacks anymore, as the extra attack is with the chainsword and it can be taken with a bolter for free, meaning you get close combat ability and an actual rifle type weapon to boot. With an infantry horde army, youre never really short on points and Id rather have those bolters than say 3 more conscripts for example.
Its probably not worth the point for competitive play but Ive never written a list where I could point to the 10 or so points I spent on bolters and say that it impacted me being able to take something useful instead.
Aside from plasma pistols of course, those are pretty great for only 5pts. They just add up pretty fast.
Don't forget, power axes aren't in the codex. You can still grandfather in from the codex but something to consider.
I just pay with the index points, right? I read the FAQ on mixing and matching. I am pretty sure they're still ok to use, same with the dudes I modeled power mauls on.
When selecting a regiment, you have to consider a lot of factors. For purely competitive game-play, a few strong archetypes emerged quickly based on the most obvious strengths (catachan blasts, cadian gunlines, and Tallarn ambushers), but how do the various regiments really compare for casual or less competitive players?
The first thing to remember is that each regiment has five different rules: the doctrine, the strategem, the order, the relic, and the warlord trait. Two regiments have special characters as well. Militarum Tempestus do have regimental rules, but they only apply to Scions and Tauroxes, so aren't really discussed here.
Doctrines are generally the biggest deal. These apply passively to all infantry and vehicles, and so scale with your force and do not take any additional resources. Even things like the catachan leadership buff, which requires an officer, are really just a buff for officers to give +1 leadership. In 2000 point list, your doctrine is more likely to shape your list than anything else regiments offer.
Orders can scale, but they cost resources. Meaning, if you like an order, you can have as much of that as you like, you just need to have enough officers, which means points. So, while you can consider orders in the selection of your regiment... none of them are good enough to really switch over.
Strategems are capped at one of each per phase and cost CPs, but the IG can load up on CPs, making relying on them a viable strategy. These range from borderline garbage to amazing. Some of the better ones are worth picking a regiment over.
Relics are soft capped at one, but you can buy up to two more with CPs. Most relics are combat related, making them nice but not amazing. And even if you want to get into combat, the blade of conquest is just as good a pick as most of them. Cadia is the big exception here, of course.
Warlord traits are the most limited, with only one per army. All but two are linked to combat, and all conflict with Grand Strategist, which is arguably the best trait for the IG.
finally, only two regiments even have special characters. Of the five, four are worth building armies around.
In my opinion, GW did not even try to internally balance the choices. Luckily, the ranges for which models are most available, Cadian and Catachans, have the most options and the strongest benefits, but it's frustrating seeing the same regiments enjoying the best options in every category. That said, let's talk about the rules.
Doctrines:
The biggest game changer here is probably the Catachan doctrine. Rerolling a die for each blast weapon on a vehicle has a huge effect on the number of shots. d6 weapons go from 3.5 shots to 4.2, while 2d6 weapons jump from 7 to 8.25 shots. Even basilisks go from 4.47 to 4.97 shots. Simple math says that more shots equals more damage. Blast weapons are generally powerful, and got better with the codex: basilisk, LRBTs, and hellhounds all got better, and some got cheaper. Catachans get the nod for best doctrine for two reasons: one, there quite a few ways to get rerolls of ones, but only two ways to reroll blast dice, and two, this doctrine works fine regadless of how you play: you can move, you can be static, and you don't need an officer to get the most out of it. It's pure, simple power. The infantry side is fun but not game changing, with +1S across the board and +1 leadership when near an officer. I file this under "occasionally nice," but we will no doubt see people trying to make Straken melee Catachans a thing. Any rule that sparks creativity is a good one. If nothing else, S4 makes buying those 4pt power swords even more tempting.
Slotting in next is the Tallarn doctrine, which allows vehicles to shot heavy weapons without penalty, and infantry to advance and shoot anything but heavies without penalty. Let's unpack this. Now, all those hull and sponson weapons fire at full effect. Banewolf multi-meltas, LRBT heavy bolters, lascannons, or multi-meltas, even Taurox autocannons can now move and shoot. This is bigger than you think, because it means there's no reason not to bolt on all the heavy weapons you can. Leman Russ punishers with a lascannon and two heavy bolters can move 5", and have 46 S5 shots and a lacannon. They dont' move fast, mind you, but fast enough to put pressure on the enemy if you think ahead. The infantry also enjoy not needing transports, and can move 6+d6" inches a turn while shooting plasma love.
The cadian doctrine offers a simple choice: give up moving to aim. Re-rolling ones for static units is a pretty good benefit, since it effects any weapon that rolls to hit. Certain weapon systems love this, especially plasma, whcih can now overcharge with impunity. For infantry, this doctrine also buffs the order "Take Aim" to true twinlinked, making heavy weapon teams very deadly. Boring, but brutally effective.
Valhallan don't suffer as much when taking damage, either in morale or from degradation. I like the idea behind this rule, but I hate the execution. It's fiddly, in that you halve losses from morale but double your wounds to see degradation. It forces the enemy to put a few more wounds on a vehicle to knock it out, which helps. For morale, it makes infantry squads not really care all that much about morale. At Ld 8, even with a six for morale you have only one model flee for every wound after the second. Now you can lose six men to shooting, roll a six, and only lose two more models. Beyond that, there isn't much to save! Even on conscripts, Valhallans can run 20 man squads wholly unsupported. Okay, so you kill ten, and I roll six for morale. I lose six more, but I still have a small squad left.
Vostroyans are straighforward: +6" range to all heavy and rapid fire weapons with range 24" or more. There aren't a lot of 24" range wepaons that are assault (the melta cannon, I suppose), so this buffs a lot of shorter ranged weapons. Plasma is a big winner here, as are the demolisher cannon, the punisher cannon, conscripts, and even 2pt storm bolters. This doctrine is sneaky, because the stuff it helps the most are some of the best things in the codex. OTOH, i can't help but think that this is worse, overall, than the Tallarn ability to move further without penalty. Still, part of me wants to play a Spearhead of Vostroyan Demolishers.
Steel Legion switches back to fiddly. Being able to rapid fire further away while tanks turn AP1 into Ap- is nice, but seems to overlook that transports no longer fear autocannons anyway. Shooting a chimera with a lascannon is a very good idea in 8th edition. I can't remember how often an AP1 weapon has put wounds on a vehicle, but I'd bet you lunch it wasn't a lot. I guess this means you'll get a few more plasma shots per game, and a lot more lasgun shots. Meh.
Finally, Mordians. Ugh. +1 to hit in overwatch is probably the weakest buff of them all, and it comes with the requirement to be in base to base. Sure, that's not exactly a penalty, but it's annoying that a weak buff comes with strings. Vechicles get +1 to overwatch if within 3" of another vehicle, which is just sad and dumb. Poor, poor Mordians. In a lot of games of 8th edition, I might only overwatch a few times, and rarely does it matter. You could overwatch at full effect with most squads and not really change things.
Orders
The winner is Tallarn, who can order tanks to move 6" before or after it shoots, and it explicitly doesn't effect Grinding Advance. that's a great order. Allows for raw movement, grabbing cover or staying out of LOS, and even allows tanks that deployed that turn to move closer... All in all, this order is a big bonus for Tallarn.
Next is cadia, which allows you to reroll the dice for turret weapons. This is is a nice increase is raw power, especially if the tank shoots twice (hint: it should). With Pask and this order, Cadians can build a nice armored force.
Things trail off, so next up is probably Mordian, which allows all rapid fire weapons to target characters. When this helps, it will help big. Especially good against assassin spam!
Steel legion allows a unit that shot to immediately embark on a transport within 3", but not if it disembarked this turn. Huh. It doesnt' really give more protection to the squad, but it does allow them to shoot and embark in a turn, which they otherwise couldn't. Dumb question: how often do squads actually get INTO a transport in 8th? This is probably a pass, but it does open up an option.
Valhallans and Vostroyans allow squads to shoot into or out of combat, respectively. Whatever. We have get back in the fight, guys. At least with valhallans, you can do fun stuff like tie them up with conscripts, who can still fight, and then shoot into the combat with another squad. Still though... will one squads shooting tip the balance?
I want to like the Catachan order, which gives rerolls to determining flamer hits. It also causes any squad hit by said flamers to lose cover for the phase. for the latter, fi you can get an officer within 14" of the enemy, you can get an astropath there, and deny them cover in an easier way. Rerolling flamers is nice against orks and stuff, but against anything else, you'd be better off with plasmas and take aim. (Or honestly, all lasguns and FRF!SRF!, which adds 19 lasgun shots at close range). Its' cool, and thematic, and in a veteran squad it will add a lot of hits, but given that it takes a dedicated package for this to work (squad with lots of flamers, officer, and delivery mechanism) I think it's an ill fated order.
Strategems
Tallarn have a great one with Ambush. Pricey at 3CP, it allows you to deepstrike any three units within 7" of a table edge. This includes LRBTs, veterans, all kinds of crazy stuff. Superheavies likely cannot deploy fully within 7", everything else can really open up. This utterly changes how the Tallarn play. You can go subtle and ambush three veteran squads with plasma (or two and an officer) or you can ambush a punisher with multi-meltas. While not necessary in every game, this can really allow you to put the pressure on the enemy early, and against nimble enemies, allows you to level the playing field.
Cadia is another big winner here. For 2cp, after you wound a unit, everything else cadian is +1 to hit it. This is huge, and allows you to just whale on knights, primarchs, and even just big old squads. Not only does this make me want to play cadians, it makes me want to include only cadians in my army.
The valhallans get a nice one. For 2CP, you get to redeploy a destroyed infantry squad (no characters or combined squads) within 6" of your table edge and more than 9" from the enemy. That plasma veteran squad you suicided on turn 2? I can reappear, and shoot up the enemy in your back field. If you pulled a refused flank, this allows you to protect yourself against line breaker. It's a rule that does two things: brings a unit back, and allows you to deep strike it. Just fantastic. One huge caveat: there is an argument if you need to pay for this squad as a reinforcement. If you do, this essentially is worthless. If not... you can really drown your enemy in bodies.
Vostroyans get a simple but powerful strategem: for one CP the unit gets +1 to hit. Superheavies are the clear choice here, to the extent that this strategem and the doctirne are almost enough for me to try to run a Vostroyan Superheavy detachment. Other than that, it's a great spot filler.
Things slow down by the time you get to the Mordians, who get exploding sixes to hit for one CP. Sure, its' a few more shots, but nothing to get excited about for a one shot strategem.
At the bottom are two very niche orders. Steel legion get re-roll ones to hit if they disembarked that turn, while Catachans that were charged while wholly within cover do d3 mortal wounds to the unit on a 4+. Both offer minor benefits under limited circumstances.
Relics
Once again, Cadia takes the cake, with the Relic of Lost Cadia. A 12" aura to re-roll ones to hit or wound is simply amazing, and it effects infantry and vehicles.
After that, they are pretty meh. Valhallans have a bolt pistol that gives the bearer summary execution, so you don't need a commissar. The rest are swords or armor, which while fun, aren't any better than the general purpose options. (the dagger, the aquilla, and the laurels are all top notch, on par with cadia's lost relic)
Warlord Trait
hey, what a surprise, Cadia has a great warlord trait. Officers get another order after giving one on a 4+. It's a little more complicated (it has to be the same order to the same unit type), but in practice, you're going to be giving take aim to as many heavy weapon squads as you can. Offers a lot of synergy with their doctrine, which makes the Take aim order super good. Also can effect their tank order, which is also super good. This is good enough to consider taking instead of Grand Strategist.
For the rest, it's a lot of stuff that makes the warlord better in combat, although the tallarn order does allow the warlord and one other squad to fall back and then charge, which all kinds of situational, but can be good. Still, not much really outweighs the frankly solid array of universal warlord traits. The elephant in the room is always Grand Strategist, which bounces back CPs on a 5+, and gives you one free reroll. Even beyond that, most of hte general ones are better than the regiment specific, making them not a huge factor in choosing your regiment.
Special Characters
So, Cadia has three, but two are linked. Pask is the ultimate tank commander, and is stupidly cheap for what he does. BS 2+, and two tank orders, make him a wicked damage dealer and a buff to the army. What he doesn't have is any way to be more durable, so he's going to have a huge target on him from turn one. Creed brings a lot to the table, and can anchor a firebase while providing two CPs, at the cost of grand strategist. Kell gives a morale re-roll, an extra order to an officer, and he can tank wounds for Creed. Kell is nice but inefficient, but the other two characters are fantastic. You will rarely see a cadian army without Pask.
The Catachans have two characters. First is straken, the punchiest, meanest, most durable character in the book (possibly bar yarrick). He gives +1 attack to Catachans within 6", and is combat monster. Well, he's really good at combat until you roll armor, where he's only AP-1. I think he's really fun, but guard are simply too squishy to make an assault army work, and he's too pricey to work for counter assault. I like the idea of him ranging behind a firebase full of infantry squads with power weapons, but 8th edition still is all about shooting, and IG get outshot more than we get out assaulted. Harker is unchanged, giving a re-roll ones to hit aura. He remains simply excellent, as he works with any catachan unit. The ability to run him alongside any aspect of your army with a passive buff makes him as close to an autoinclude as exists in 40k.
Bringing it all together
Steel Legion is probably overall the weakest. Nothing very effective, a lot of conditions and prerequisites, and usually the worst of everything. The only reason to even try this one is if you really want to use transports. Build the army around plasma vets jumping out of transports, getting reroll ones to hit with the strategem and re-roll ones to wound with an order, and shake and bake something. You can rapid fire at 18", so you can hopefully stay away from the worst of the enemy shooting, and then volley again the next turn and reembark. It's neat, but finnicky.
Mordians are probably next. While nothing they have is awful, it's mostly niche stuff, and not much really boosts their firepower. This regiment probably has the most wide open play style, although I'd look hard at conscripts to maximize their overwatch.
Valhallans have a couple of nice perks, and don't get morale wiped easily. Their tanks stay punchy even at 4 wounds, and they can bring back infantry units and redeploy them. I think this regiment allows a cunning player to surprise enemies, and might be a dark horse for offbeat players.
Vostroyans have two decent things: extra range by doctrine, and +1 to hit by strategem. The rest is mediocre, to be honest, but this give your army two solid buffs. These buffs work regardless of unit, whether it moved, if it's near an officer, etc. Everything shoots further, and for One CP, one unit a turn gets +1 to hit. Other regiments might give more focused buffs, but I think this regiment gives a rock solid buff. My suggestion: consider using with a superheavy detachment, especially with heavy bolter sponsons. Baneblades can move and shoot without penalty, and +1 to hit is better than rerolling a blast dice, and certainly better than rerolling ones. Yes, it's CP heavy, but vostroyans get a lot out of their super heavies.
Tallarn are very strong, but not in raw power. Instead, they allow for unparalleled mobility. They have top shelf options for doctrine, orders, and strategem, but they gain relatively minor buffs to things like artillery, heavy weapon teams, or superheavies. This list basically writes itself, with lots of russes, infantry with no heavy weapons, and ambush units like veterans. This is the connesuers choice, in that it doesn't make your army better, but it allows you to play the army better.
Catachans have the best doctrine and the best special character, and the rest of their stuff is mediocre to poor. That's still enough to make them a great regiment. Rerolling blasts will shape the way you build your army, but after that you will have a lot of tools in your tool box. Take hellhounds, flamer sentinels, LRBTs with no sponsons, and artillery, and protect it with S4 infantry with cheap power weapons. Add harker for re-rolls where needed, and enjoy the rule called, approrpriately enough, Brute Strength.
So... that means Cadians are the "best" overall regiment. They have a good doctrine, good order, great strategem, great relic, and even a useful warlord trait, all while packing one great and one very good special character. Enjoy watching Pask and Creed fight Goulliman on a thousand worlds. Snark aside, aside from the psychological limitation from moving, Cadia has a lot of nicely layered buffs. They can run tanks just as well as Catachan, they can gunline better than anybody, and with their Strategem they will very accurately shoot one unit a turn.
I hope this helps to compare some of the options available to you. I think that every regiment is worth taking at least in detachment sized packages, although for Steel Legion I'm reaching a bit. Still, i think you can make a solid argument for running five different regiments as the primary detachment even in a competitive environment, and the other two are fine even in casual play, although Steel Legions bonuses are a bit more narrow.
Good write up as usual Polonius. Hope that makes it to your overall guide. It's certainly going to take me a while to absorb.
I have some minor criticisms though:
Mordian Parade Drill also includes a +1 leadership. It gives Infantry total leadership 8, which helps reduce the need for commissars. Lose 5, and you're guaranteed to have the special weapon and the sarge even on a worst case. That's nothing to sneeze at.
Also, the Mordian Volley Fire is a bigger deal that you make it out to be for subtle reasons. It's more than exploding sixes; It lets you flat-out fire the weapon all over again. That's another rapid fire for a plasma gun. Another three shots with a heavy bolter, et cetera. And you get the chance to do it for every time you roll a six. So you could fire that plasma gun an extra four times if you roll initial boxcars, or that heavy bolter an extra nine times. Not something to be counted on, but it's quite a upper bounds. Again, nothing to sneeze at there either.
Anyway, it's definitely not amazing, but I think it's got a lot more going on than you're selling here. Just my two cents.
Now, I need to get back to converting up my mordian plasma assassin squads.
Nice write up Polonius, I did see one thing you covered that I thought worth expanding on though.
The Valhallan order that let's you shoot into combat, I personally think that it is rather powerful. Sure, it only works on infantry but I can see it being really useful against enemy vehicles. Tie them up with some conscripts so that they can't retreat, then fill them full of lascannons. If the lascannons hit your own guys, who cares? Could also be useful against characters, as melee is one time they may actually be closer than other targets and so you can snipe them out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I have a bit of a question. The rules state that you do orders at the beginning of the turn. Does that mean that you have to decide all of your orders before you truly use any of them? I know that you resolve them instantly, but that only gives squads the "change their weapon profile" or "can reroll something" effect, the shooting comes later in the phase. So I need to decide all of my orders at the start before I even shoot anything (except move move move and bayonets of course).
This seems rather an important point with how the orders work. I haven't seen it discussed much, but I guess that is because it was like that in the index (I didn't really play with the index, so didn't pick up on this procedure). It's a major shift from 7th, where you could see the effect of an order before choosing the next. Will take some getting used to.
As a final question, how do people with huge armies keep track of what orders they have activated? I guess it isn't too hard if you keep them broadly similar (take aim on HWSs, frfsrf on infantry etc.).
daedalus wrote: Good write up as usual Polonius. Hope that makes it to your overall guide. It's certainly going to take me a while to absorb.
Thanks, I hope to update the guide in the next few weeks. I'll probably start making it an article at this point.
I have some minor criticisms though:
Mordian Parade Drill also includes a +1 leadership. It gives Infantry total leadership 8, which helps reduce the need for commissars. Lose 5, and you're guaranteed to have the special weapon and the sarge even on a worst case. That's nothing to sneeze at.
I agree. Not needing commissars at all outside of conscripts is significant, and worth pointing out. It also makes heavy weapon squads LD8, and thus immune to morale.
Also, the Mordian Volley Fire is a bigger deal that you make it out to be for subtle reasons. It's more than exploding sixes; It lets you flat-out fire the weapon all over again. That's another rapid fire for a plasma gun. Another three shots with a heavy bolter, et cetera. And you get the chance to do it for every time you roll a six. So you could fire that plasma gun an extra four times if you roll initial boxcars, or that heavy bolter an extra nine times. Not something to be counted on, but it's quite a upper bounds. Again, nothing to sneeze at there either.
Damn, that's a big difference. It's basically begging for either plasma vets or a combined squad, but it's a pretty healthy spike in damage output. I'll have to revise my primer with that in there as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trickstick wrote: Nice write up Polonius, I did see one thing you covered that I thought worth expanding on though.
The Valhallan order that let's you shoot into combat, I personally think that it is rather powerful. Sure, it only works on infantry but I can see it being really useful against enemy vehicles. Tie them up with some conscripts so that they can't retreat, then fill them full of lascannons. If the lascannons hit your own guys, who cares? Could also be useful against characters, as melee is one time they may actually be closer than other targets and so you can snipe them out.
Hmm, yes. I don't think it's necessarily a reason to take Valhallans, but I think having a decent order does make them more solidly second tier. I agree with your analysis, and when I get a chance later tonight, I'll revise and repost the primer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I have a bit of a question. The rules state that you do orders at the beginning of the turn. Does that mean that you have to decide all of your orders before you truly use any of them? I know that you resolve them instantly, but that only gives squads the "change their weapon profile" or "can reroll something" effect, the shooting comes later in the phase. So I need to decide all of my orders at the start before I even shoot anything (except move move move and bayonets of course).
This seems rather an important point with how the orders work. I haven't seen it discussed much, but I guess that is because it was like that in the index (I didn't really play with the index, so didn't pick up on this procedure). It's a major shift from 7th, where you could see the effect of an order before choosing the next. Will take some getting used to.
I've been playing the way you descrbe. You resolve them immediately, so for MoveMoveMove you immediately move, fix bayonets you immediately fight. But for the buffs, i hink you just immediately get the buff, and can then shoot as you see fit.
As a final question, how do people with huge armies keep track of what orders they have activated? I guess it isn't too hard if you keep them broadly similar (take aim on HWSs, frfsrf on infantry etc.).
I haven't thought of anything good, but it'll probably end up being tokens like in war machine.
Another thing to note about the Tallarn ambush stratagem, I believe you can use it more than once because of when you are allowed to use it. It will cost you a ton of command points, but because it is pre-game, and thus exempt from the once per phase restriction, you can use it multiple times to outflank more units if you want.
Don't forget, power axes aren't in the codex. You can still grandfather in from the codex but something to consider.
I just pay with the index points, right? I read the FAQ on mixing and matching. I am pretty sure they're still ok to use, same with the dudes I modeled power mauls on.
Is there a new FAQ specific to this? Otherwise, units that have a datasheet in a current codex, can only be equipped in the way listed in their most recent datasheet.
The FAQ I know of regarding grandfathering in units, only applies to units that do not have a new datasheet in a codex release, such as Chaos Lords on Juggernauts. They had an index entry, but were left out of the CSM codex, but the FAQ says you can field them using the datasheet from the index. If they were listed in the current codex, but with different wargear options, you would have to field them with the most up to date wargear.
So Infantry Squad Sergeants (which I assume you were talking about?) can only take a chainsword or powersword. If you meant veteran sergeants, then you could also take a power fist. Not seeing any options for sergeants to take axes in the new codex. edit: Or power mauls. Seems it is swords or power fists only.
"While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army."
Of particular note here is "certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box" - Dreadnoughts got new datasheets in the codex, the difference is that it omitted certain weapons from the index, but otherwise its the same datasheet, so the ruling allows for greater grandfathering thsn you seem to think.
The *real* problem is that the options for power mauls and axes arent on the datasheet at all, they were on the weapon list, and theres no clear ruling on what to do.
"While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army."
Of particular note here is "certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box" - Dreadnoughts got new datasheets in the codex, the difference is that it omitted certain weapons from the index, but otherwise its the same datasheet, so the ruling allows for greater grandfathering thsn you seem to think.
The *real* problem is that the options for power mauls and axes arent on the datasheet at all, they were on the weapon list, and theres no clear ruling on what to do.
I stand corrected, that does seem to include all wargear options too... does make things tricky with balancing though. Maybe axes were removed from sergeants because they made sergeants too strong, and so removing them was for balance reasons... but then people can just ignore that and use the old version. Not saying that's what happened, but there is bound to be a case in one of the codex releases where a unit is "balanced" by removing a wargear option, and then this faq entry would allow people to just ignore that. Seems odd.
I mean, if they change command squads from being able to field 4 heavy weapons per squad to 2 heavy weapons, you could still say "well my squad is modelled with 4 heavy weapons, so I'll grandfather in the index datasheet instead". Iffy.
Edit: Actually, as Axes and Mauls were on the weapon list and not the datasheets, then they may well have been removed as a balance. +1 and +2 strength weapons on a S3 model were often the best options, as it made them hit on 4+ or 3+ against most targets instead of 5+ (I think this is right, can't check right now). Might not make much difference on a single sergeant, but as it is the weapon list then that includes ALL guardsmen who take weapons from that list, so thats all the veterans etc etc. So I think this was an intentional balance decision. And so their FAQ from before seems to completely negate it.
It wasnt a balance decision, it was a model decision. There is no kit that includes a power axe or a power maul in the Astra Militarum model range so they removed it from the codex in keeping with their policy of only including rules for things with models. If it was a balance issue, they would have addressed that in the index by making them more expensive or removing them entirely from the index so as to not give you an opportunity to "grandfather" them in at all. GW is quite deliberate in what they are doing.
chaos0xomega wrote: It wasnt a balance decision, it was a model decision. There is no kit that includes a power axe or a power maul in the Astra Militarum model range so they removed it from the codex in keeping with their policy of only including rules for things with models. If it was a balance issue, they would have addressed that in the index by making them more expensive or removing them entirely from the index so as to not give you an opportunity to "grandfather" them in at all. GW is quite deliberate in what they are doing.
Well... I dunno if this is true. GW are yet to have made points or rules changes to 90% of the units and wargear options in the index that require it. And I haven't seen them remove anything at all - that's what the codex releases were for. And, potentially, Chapter Approved (if it lives up to the promise, which we will have to wait and see).
Sure, GW are being deliberate... but not in the way you seem to be suggesting.
Not saying you're entirely wrong, they did say they were removing options that they don't have kits for. But you are implying that they would deliberately make exceptions for the grandfather clause, and I think you're giving them wayyyy too much credit for planning ahead.
I read mine at lunch at work, mostly skipped the historical and the pictures and went for the rules and suchlike.
Things that are possibly in other codexes (which I didn't read) but track guards for 10pts sure make your Tallarn/Stell Legion mobile 'til the very end.
There's the plasmagun tax as well, costing extra for the BS3+ troops. I don't know if that's a common thing with other armies as welll. Don't see why that's there.
Ogryn bodyguards. Not powerful, but customizable, a punchy cheapo Nork for your characters. Elite Too.
The new Psychic powers are all right as well, a fearless and a -1 to hit, always good to have.
As it was posted earlier, You can always take a command squad with your Master of Ordinance since he's a Regimental officer.
ogryn body guard is stupid powerful since RAW he can take wounds for tank commanders right now. Its about the only thing aside from take cover and psychic abilities to keep him alive and theyre good for cqc in a pinch as well.
I fully expect that to be FAQ'd soon but there you go.
MrMoustaffa wrote: ogryn body guard is stupid powerful since RAW he can take wounds for tank commanders right now. Its about the only thing aside from take cover and psychic abilities to keep him alive and theyre good for cqc in a pinch as well.
I fully expect that to be FAQ'd soon but there you go.
I wonder just how successful a list consisting of 18 ogryn bodyguards and 5 tank commanders would be... Maybe trim out a tank commander for a conscript screen, maybe not. Having to shoot at T8 and having your damage siphon off and spread across 108 wounds of ogryn characters would be nasty enough as is...
I still think it seems an expensive way to take tank wounds, guarding a company commander/commissar most of the weapons will be 1 damage, guarding a Tank Commander your bodyguard will be taking Melta/Lascannnon blasts and being insta gibbed due to damge outweighing his wounds with no benefit from his own equipment as hes relying on the 3+ of the tank which will be negated by the Melta/Lascannon anyway. Is it really that great to be spending at least 4/10th of a Leman Russ cost to add 50% HP but that extra HP not really being able to contribute much to the exchange of fire? For every two Ogryn Bodyguard your essentially better off taking another Leman Russ instead.
You don't want to give your ogryn bodyguard any gear he will be 55points and add 6 wounds to pask or any character.
Let's take an example of a pask punisher with an ogryn bodyguard behind him. Pask now has 6 t8 3+ wounds and this doesn't include any psychic buffs or smoke grenades that make pask more resilient.
Make no doubt the ogryn will explode first turn but if he keeps a key character alive a turn he already did his job. And he can easily cover several characters from being sniped.
Personally I think 5 ogryn body guards and all tank commanders are overkill and a waste of points.
On the other hand, a bodyguard deathstar of geared up ogryn which can spread wounds around to prevent any of them dying? That could be pretty powerful. Stick a priest in there, some other sort of soup buff unit and you have a lovely, rule exploiting deathstar. Use it before it is FAQed away.
Inquisitor Jex wrote: I read mine at lunch at work, mostly skipped the historical and the pictures and went for the rules and suchlike.
Things that are possibly in other codexes (which I didn't read) but track guards for 10pts sure make your Tallarn/Stell Legion mobile 'til the very end.
Nope, these seem to be unique to IG. Very good too for mobile units.
There's the plasmagun tax as well, costing extra for the BS3+ troops. I don't know if that's a common thing with other armies as welll. Don't see why that's there.
It's there because IG had never-fail deepstriking BS3 troops dropping behind the enemy and making triple their points back in the first turn of every game. Was op. They still are op, or at least -extremely- good. Other armies with similar units (there aren't any, actually) already pay for it by the units being massively overpriced as standard. Eldar Rangers, Striking Scorpions, Stealth Suits, all very expensive for what they do. Plasma Scions are still cheap.
Ogryn bodyguards. Not powerful, but customizable, a punchy cheapo Nork for your characters. Elite Too.
Also powerful, Ogryn are good in this edition. Massive, powerful brutes that are also capable of blocking shots for all your characters. Great unit.
The new Psychic powers are all right as well, a fearless and a -1 to hit, always good to have.
I hadn't thought to check the new psychic powers. IG already had the best psykers in the universe. Seems they just got better. -1 to hit is always amazing, and fearless on IG troops is... well, they're already fearless because of characters, so I doubt this will get chosen much. +1 to saving throws is better I think.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trickstick wrote: On the other hand, a bodyguard deathstar of geared up ogryn which can spread wounds around to prevent any of them dying? That could be pretty powerful. Stick a priest in there, some other sort of soup buff unit and you have a lovely, rule exploiting deathstar. Use it before it is FAQed away.
I had to re-read the bodyguard datasheet, to discover that they are indeed characters... why? Why make a bodyguard able to bodyguard itself? There's no way the bodyguard should be a character, they are powerful enough as it is. Now you can indeed share wounds around.
In fact, unless I'm missing some wording, you could daisy chain the wounds to any bodyguard, even one not within 3".
Commissar takes damage.
Bodyguard 1 rolls a 3+, takes a mortal wound.
Because he's a character, Bodyguard 2 can roll a 3+ to take the wound instead.
Because he's also a character, Bodyguard 3 can roll a 3+ to take the wound instead.
As long as you keep rolling 3+, the wound could end up being taken by a guy right back in your deployment zone, behind a hill. Completely pointless, but I'm sure someone will find a use for it. Perhaps if there is a FNP bubble somewhere on the table, as FNP would then be usable to completely ignore the wound even happened. Don't know if IG has one of those though.
If you have 4 Ogryn bodyguards and you make most of your 3+ rolls, it takes 21 damage to kill the first one. Granted the next three just drop after, but until that point, the mob will have no degradation of it's fighting ability.
Mmmpi wrote: If you have 4 Ogryn bodyguards and you make most of your 3+ rolls, it takes 21 damage to kill the first one. Granted the next three just drop after, but until that point, the mob will have no degradation of it's fighting ability.
I wonder how many actual shots it would take to get 21 damage onto the unit in the first place. Somewhere close to 100 shots fired, I suspect. More, if you are using the -1 to hit psychic power on the character in question. And I'm talking 100 heavy weapon shots, not normal troop rifles. That bodyguard will not be getting killed off very often.
Using space marines with lascannons, it takes 4 (did the math in my head, so please fell free to correct) to do damage (3.5), so 24 lascannon shots to get the 21 wounds. Roughly that is. Assuming slab shields, bruit armor, and a save buff that adds to invulnerable saves. (Celestine for example)
Mmmpi wrote: Using space marines with lascannons, it takes 4 (did the math in my head, so please fell free to correct) to do damage (3.5), so 24 lascannon shots to get the 21 wounds. Roughly that is. Assuming slab shields, bruit armor, and a save buff that adds to invulnerable saves. (Celestine for example)
Oh true, lascannons would help due to the extra damage per shot. Though soaking up 24 lascannon shots is pretty huge.
Trickstick wrote: Nice write up Polonius, I did see one thing you covered that I thought worth expanding on though.
The Valhallan order that let's you shoot into combat, I personally think that it is rather powerful. Sure, it only works on infantry but I can see it being really useful against enemy vehicles. Tie them up with some conscripts so that they can't retreat, then fill them full of lascannons. If the lascannons hit your own guys, who cares? Could also be useful against characters, as melee is one time they may actually be closer than other targets and so you can snipe them out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I have a bit of a question. The rules state that you do orders at the beginning of the turn. Does that mean that you have to decide all of your orders before you truly use any of them? I know that you resolve them instantly, but that only gives squads the "change their weapon profile" or "can reroll something" effect, the shooting comes later in the phase. So I need to decide all of my orders at the start before I even shoot anything (except move move move and bayonets of course).
This seems rather an important point with how the orders work. I haven't seen it discussed much, but I guess that is because it was like that in the index (I didn't really play with the index, so didn't pick up on this procedure). It's a major shift from 7th, where you could see the effect of an order before choosing the next. Will take some getting used to.
As a final question, how do people with huge armies keep track of what orders they have activated? I guess it isn't too hard if you keep them broadly similar (take aim on HWSs, frfsrf on infantry etc.).
To comment on the orders: I believe it says under data sheets for any character with 2 orders (so company commanders, creed, and pask) that you have to perform the first order before doing the next. I don't have my book to quote it exactly.
I really want to try out Cadian Doctrines but I feel like they are a trap, and a potentially boring one at that. Great buffs but you have to sit still to make use of them. Every Cadian unit weakens itself by moving and I'm tempted enough to sit still and gun line already. I think Catachans and Tallarn are the way to go.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I really want to try out Cadian Doctrines but I feel like they are a trap, and a potentially boring one at that. Great buffs but you have to sit still to make use of them. Every Cadian unit weakens itself by moving and I'm tempted enough to sit still and gun line already. I think Catachans and Tallarn are the way to go.
I can see it being a trap if you only have Cadians. But I think bringing a firebase detachment of Cadians with a mobile detachment has a lot of promise. Currently playing with Cadian brigade firebase, pure Tempestus battalion detachment, and a wildcard detachment (tried Tallarn Spearhead and Mixed Imperium Vanguard so far). Its been working pretty well so far but I think I'll need more tanks to make the tallarn spearhead variant work.
Cadians are your standard gunline+, so should suffer objective-wise since you got to move and loose some of their efficiency.
Also, checking in a bit more details, the other regimental doctrines, seems to favour getting in close, or having some adventage when you're in closer to your enemy, even being in melee with them, either with orders, doctrines, or strategams. Cadians rely on shooting at every turn. Their only non-related shooting 'Cadians-only' thing is thier Warlord Trait.
Close second would be Vostroyans, but even get to shoot non-pistol weapons in melee via their Regimental order. Add the Laurels of command, and got a 50/50 chance to FRFSRF that lot of whatever that's hounding your infantry.
Ogryn bodyguard are a way to use the Dagger of Tu'sak deepstrike a unit of Bullgryn though so they're not footslogging.
*edit: Well now that I look at it never mind using the bodyguard, you can use a Primaris psyker or a priest ause it says the <infantry> unit need to have the same regiment keyword only ifthe character with the dagger also has a regiment.
With Vostroyans "Repel the Enemy!" order I was looking more as a way to support screening units locked in melee with the fire of units with nasty ranged weapons. Like say i have a unit of crusaders tying up some khorne berserkers and right behind the crusaders is a plasma command squad. Order RTE and they're blasting the zerkers while remaining safely behind the Crusader's shield wall out of the reach of chain axes.
Granted the can just be shot at or jump units can just fly over the crusaders and get behind the command squad but you get the idea. Let tanky units basically the anvil and the guys behind them a hammer.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I really want to try out Cadian Doctrines but I feel like they are a trap, and a potentially boring one at that. Great buffs but you have to sit still to make use of them. Every Cadian unit weakens itself by moving and I'm tempted enough to sit still and gun line already. I think Catachans and Tallarn are the way to go.
Well, I think it can be effective - especially if you have a lot of artillery units that will probably never need to move.
However, I completely agree with you that it will almost certainly encourage boring play, hence why it doesn't interest me at all.
I think Cadian v Catachan comes down to more than just static v movement. It's also a matter of support fire. Catachan favor vehicle artillery, while Cadians favor heavy weapon teams.
I took my Scions out to a tourney for the 1st time since the codex dropped. I was relatively impressed. The regimental bonus of getting extra shots on 6's to hit was more potent than I expected, and the Old Grudges Warlord trait was quite powerful and useful.
This was my list:
Spoiler:
Imperium Vanguard Detachment St Celestine w/ 1 Geminai Superior
Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in termie armor (Psyker - Terrify, Nemisis Demonhammers, Psycannon)
Militarum Tempestus Battalion Detachment Tempestor Prime (Chain Sword, Command Rod) *Warlord: OLD GRUDGES*
Tempestor Prime (Chain Sword, Command Rod) **Relic: THE LAURELS OF COMMAND**
MT Scions (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)
MT Scions (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)
MT Scions
Taurox Prime (Taurox Gatling, 2 Autocannons, Storm Bolter)
More info on the tourney:
Spoiler:
It was a 2 v 2 event. My partner was grey knights with Grand Master Dreadknight, Draigo, and 3 squads of interceptors.
Game 1 We lost a close one in round 1 to a list that was Magnus, Mortarian, Belikore, a Nurgle Demon Prince, a Renegade knight with RFBC + Gatling, and 30-40 Brimstones with a blue in each squad. It was kill points base on powerlevel, and because my partner had 6 interceptors in each squad we gave up a bunch of extra power level (16 extra PL than if he had put 3 extra in 1 squad) We lost KP by just 4 PL so it made a huge difference.
I marked Magnus with Old grudges and dropped all my heavy guns agianst him on T1, but his rerollable 3+ invul saved every last one. But on turn 2 we killed the DP, Magnus and Mortarian, and on Turn 3 we finished belikore, and some horrors. If we had had a turn 4 we would have finished the horrors, and won solidly.
Game 2 we played Tzeeche CSM list. We smashed them really hard with our alphastrike. My melta command squad killed a dread, and my plasma command squad did 11!!!!! overcharged plasma wounds to a squad of rubric marines. Yes, a squad with only 8 shots did 11 wounds.
Game 3 was 2 Knights + Dark Eldar. This is where Old grudges really came up big. I marked the shooty knight, and dropped my Melta and plasma command squads next to it. All 4 melta wounded, but he saved one, unfortuanely that was only 9 damage. Still better than I expected without the warlord trait. The plasma caused 9 overcharged wounds to the knight, and he saved 5 of them, but still knocking a knight down 17 hull points with 2 command squads felt excellent.
My hot shot volley guns made mincemeat of Dark Eldar when they got out of their vehicles.
I was thinking plasma might have got nerfed a bit too hard, but Getting the extra shots via the regimental doctrine really made up for it, and having a way to reroll wounds really helped. I used "Vengence for Cadia" a couple times to reroll to hit with them so I could order them to reroll to wound. The Laurals of command, and the new scion order helped out my hot shot volley guns a bit too.
I still felt like I need to hit an opponent so hard on T1 that they can't get back up, because my scions die so easily, but I felt like I was more able to do that especially against big stuff like Knights or Big Demons. The biggest problem remains invul saves. Magnus with his 3++ rerollable is hard for guard, and if the culexus hadn't enabled us to deny it, I think we would have gotten stomped.
How come nobody is talking about multiple rocket pods now being assault weapons PLUS the hovering gunship rule? I just used a Valkyrie in a game that had a Lascannon, 2 heavy Bolters, and multiple rocket pods and it was boss. I'm actually considering using the hell strike missiles now ...
I also used Chimeras armed with autocannons and they were a lot of fun and useful since I play maelstrom missions. The hull heavy flamers got a nice power boost from Catachans doctrine.
And can anybody tell me if there is a use for the tech priest engineseers forge world keyword? Only thing I can think of is that if you had ad mech and imperial guard detachments then choosing the same forge world would allow it to repair both types of vehicles? He only gains the forge world dogma bonus if he's in a battle forged detachment ... It's confusing. If I can make him Stygies for help against snipers then I'd do that if I don't require a whole detachment. It's confusing.
Colonel Cross wrote: How come nobody is talking about multiple rocket pods now being assault weapons PLUS the hovering gunship rule? I just used a Valkyrie in a game that had a Lascannon, 2 heavy Bolters, and multiple rocket pods and it was boss. I'm actually considering using the hell strike missiles now ...
I also used Chimeras armed with autocannons and they were a lot of fun and useful since I play maelstrom missions. The hull heavy flamers got a nice power boost from Catachans doctrine.
And can anybody tell me if there is a use for the tech priest engineseers forge world keyword? Only thing I can think of is that if you had ad mech and imperial guard detachments then choosing the same forge world would allow it to repair both types of vehicles? He only gains the forge world dogma bonus if he's in a battle forged detachment ... It's confusing. If I can make him Stygies for help against snipers then I'd do that if I don't require a whole detachment. It's confusing.
It's a cool platform and will give you lots of options.
However we are talking 9+2D6 heavy bolter shots (give or take a multi-laser +1str for -1ap.)... So 16 str 5 shots for 170ish lasguns.
2x Wyverns give you 28 str4 shots (re-roll wounds) for about the same. A Punisher gets you 43 str 5 shots (granted, lacking some -1AP and range) but again, 30pts cheaper.
The mobility is well worth it though. I used it to drop off some meltas to pick off Bjorn and grab an OBJ. Then it moved off to support rough riders in the back field. There were some Marines in cover that the Wyvern would never have dislodged. Plus it was probably out of range. The -1ap on the weapons, ability to character snipe, deliver a payload where I want it, late game guardsmen shuffling, etc are all reasons it's useful. The cost adjustment and ability to hit things while in hover now made it absolutely relevant.
Also, my dice rolls are garbage. 2 turns in a row my Wyvern fired less than 10 shots WITH the free Catachan reroll of 1 dice! And I had a punisher. Range, LoS, mobility, etc all need to be taken into consideration.
Colonel Cross wrote: The mobility is well worth it though. I used it to drop off some meltas to pick off Bjorn and grab an OBJ. Then it moved off to support rough riders in the back field. There were some Marines in cover that the Wyvern would never have dislodged. Plus it was probably out of range. The -1ap on the weapons, ability to character snipe, deliver a payload where I want it, late game guardsmen shuffling, etc are all reasons it's useful. The cost adjustment and ability to hit things while in hover now made it absolutely relevant.
Relevant yes, but suboptimal.
Which is nice; it means I can field my V-Force without feeling guilty unlike when they were all vendettas back in 7th. They are probably one of the few options in the codex where it actually *does* matter what the player's skill is, as timing, positioning and general usage actually matters instead of 'take the enemy models off the table, if you want you can roll dice before doing it'
I would quite like to see someone field a Catachan 22nd army, taking lots of veterans in valkyries. Could be a lot of fun to play with. Maybe take a few FW fliers as CAS.
9 CP (because of three relics) at 1500 points, 5 points left over.
I put the two command squads in the Valk with the company commander that has the Iron Star and they do some character assassination. Other two company commanders hang out with the infantry, which generally screen the HWS / Basilisk, and then walk forward shooting after the obligatory alpha strike happens. The hellhound barrels forward on a suicide mission, flaming and daring my opponent to risk that 4+ moral would bubble from blowing it up. Scout Sentinels help with mitigating the alpha strike, but they're mostly there as cheap means to fill out the brigade. The HWS / Basilisks do what they're there to do. Astropath is mostly there for a cheap deny the witch, but I'd probably give it Nightshroud or something to help protect a basilisk or one of the HWS. Finally, the Scions just do their point and click thing that they do. Nothing really special there.
vipoid wrote: Quick question, guys - do you think it's worth giving a Company Commander a Power Fist?
Maybe, although I am not a fan of gearing for close combat; I would rather spend the points on bodies and tanks. If you want a fist, a Lord Commissar is a better carrier as they have WS 2+.
vipoid wrote: Quick question, guys - do you think it's worth giving a Company Commander a Power Fist?
Maybe, although I am not a fan of gearing for close combat; I would rather spend the points on bodies and tanks. If you want a fist, a Lord Commissar is a better carrier as they have WS 2+.
I largely agree, but I don't mind spending some points on my HQs to give them a bit of character and differentiate the important ones.
vipoid wrote: I largely agree, but I don't mind spending some points on my HQs to give them a bit of character and differentiate the important ones.
Me too. I used to love my 2x plasma pistol commander, back when I used to run plasma chimera CCS. Even made all the plasma gunners individuals too, such as the one with loads of canteens to keep his gun cool.
Another question - does anyone like Lord Commissars and/or find them useful?
I like the idea but they seem rather expensive and don't appear to bring much to the table.
Trickstick wrote: Me too. I used to love my 2x plasma pistol commander, back when I used to run plasma chimera CCS. Even made all the plasma gunners individuals too, such as the one with loads of canteens to keep his gun cool.
Hah, I love that idea. I don't suppose it bought that plasmagunner any luck with overheats?
Also, I'd forgotten you could even have commanders with 2 plasma pistols. What's GW got against gunslingers?
vipoid wrote: Hah, I love that idea. I don't suppose it bought that plasmagunner any luck with overheats?
Also, I'd forgotten you could even have commanders with 2 plasma pistols. What's GW got against gunslingers?
Not so much, although he was usually the last to die out of the squad.
As for gunslingers, I guess if they let anyone use two pistols then Cypher would be far less special. He deserves the bonus after being hunted by traitors for so long.
vipoid wrote: Another question - does anyone like Lord Commissars and/or find them useful?
I like the idea but they seem rather expensive and don't appear to bring much to the table.
Leadership 9, can fill an HQ slot, and maybe if you really want to try to make CC guard work while having an HQ that is decent in CC and can take the relic pistol. Otherwise I don't see the point in taking one over a regular Commissar and a Company commander, as the extra 10-15 points is easily made up for with the commander being able to issue orders. If you want a fluffy Catachan list you can go without any Commisars and still hit LD 8 with the regimental standard.
I guess they're good for Valhallan infantry lists. LD9 blob of conscripts that can only lose 1 model to failed morale checks and then can be brought back after the stubborn bastards have fought to the last man sounds cool, but it's still more effective to bring a regular commissar and platoon commander.
Edit: I typed hammer commissar... The Valhallans are so much like the Red Army I was thinking of sickles and hammers..
Otto von Bludd wrote: I really want to try out Cadian Doctrines but I feel like they are a trap, and a potentially boring one at that. Great buffs but you have to sit still to make use of them. Every Cadian unit weakens itself by moving and I'm tempted enough to sit still and gun line already. I think Catachans and Tallarn are the way to go.
Cadian Doctrine is good. It makes lascannons worthy.
You would think that your mobility suffers but it's not so bad. If the situation calls it and you really have to move these guys, you can move+advance in movement phase *and* move+advance in shooting place with Orders. You are bringing officers, right? Sure, you miss a turn a of shooting but with scenario play, it might be worth it. Killing something out of spite pales in comparison to actually playing the scenario and winning the game.
Also, nothing is stopping you from also fielding Stormtroopers. Deepstriking is the best form of movement.
Either way, when you are playing Imperium, it's a good idea to bring one detachment that doesn't benefit from Doctrines/etc. The variety just beats the alternative.
As for gunslingers, I guess if they let anyone use two pistols then Cypher would be far less special. He deserves the bonus after being hunted by traitors for so long.
Sisters of battle still have duel pistols. Ran a duel inferno pistol canoness when the index dropped. Ran her up the field with Cypher. She popped tanks and transports, and he finished off the infantry.
The section in the codex that goes over this doesn't set a limit on the percentage in the army. If you only have a single squad, and the rest are auxillera, astropaths, commissars, ect, then that squad would still get the regimental doctrine.
Your list works.
If you had included any other imperial units in the detachment, or troops from any other non-stormtrooper regiment, then all regiments would loose their doctrines and stratagems. Also, stormtroopers only get their regiment buff if they're the only (REGIEMENT) unit in the detachment.
Reading the Codex and it is by far the most fun codex I have read. And it making me dust off my Guard and allies forces to play.
Overall, I like the codex and most of my complaints are nitpicks. Which to me means a good codex and after reading this and looking back at the insult of a codex for the Adeptus Mechanicus it really makes me feel sad that GW has not ironed out the bad rules writers and teams which are working with each faction. As its very apparent now that some armies are getting more love than others.
That being said. I love this codex since (imho) all codexes should make each unit a "Oh, I want to take that" and this book pretty much does that for every unit (except for wyrd psykers, which is sad cause I love their models).
So here is something I have been thinking about since reading the codex. For a potentially broken combo though its super expensive and some things can go wrong.
Baneblade: Stormlord. Give it all the bells and whistles, extra Lazcannons and so forth. Load it up with 18 autocannon heavy weapons guys or Lazcannons. Place it within a Force Field Generator. A squad of psykers (Primaris maybe two) casting +1 save and casting -1 to hit. And if you're really worried about something nuking it, spend a command point for the extra +1 save for the wonderful 3++.
Its a huge expensive chunk, probably costing you half your army in a 2000 pts game, but it would be fairly fun to field for lulz.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I really want to try out Cadian Doctrines but I feel like they are a trap, and a potentially boring one at that. Great buffs but you have to sit still to make use of them. Every Cadian unit weakens itself by moving and I'm tempted enough to sit still and gun line already. I think Catachans and Tallarn are the way to go.
Cadian Doctrine is good. It makes lascannons worthy.
You would think that your mobility suffers but it's not so bad. If the situation calls it and you really have to move these guys, you can move+advance in movement phase *and* move+advance in shooting place with Orders. You are bringing officers, right? Sure, you miss a turn a of shooting but with scenario play, it might be worth it. Killing something out of spite pales in comparison to actually playing the scenario and winning the game.
Also, nothing is stopping you from also fielding Stormtroopers. Deepstriking is the best form of movement.
Either way, when you are playing Imperium, it's a good idea to bring one detachment that doesn't benefit from Doctrines/etc. The variety just beats the alternative.
There are multiple solutions to Cadian lack of mobility.
Storm troopers
Elysians detachment
Tallaran detachment
add Valks or Vendettas they don't get regimental doctrine anyways.
Out flank with a combination of ogres and rough riders.
Yeah I played Cadian. Was kind of crappy for an entire army to be it. I miss the mobility of elysians.
Going to run a Tallaran spear head. Super heavy aux. Deep striking in 2 demo tanks with heavy bolters with a tank commander and the shadowsword!
And then a Cadian firebase. (Manticore, 2 wevyrns), conscripts.
Hopefully fixes the mobility issue. I wish I could incorporate the tauros. But on the up side Sentinel powerlifters and Cyclops have the <regiment> keyword so they are good to go!
I'm looking at running an outrider detachment so I can Ambush 2 x 2 Hellhound varients. This leaves space for one more unit.
I want to bring a deathstrike....
I've only heard negatives about how it wont get to fire the deathstrike missiles until turn 4 and will be destroyed long before that but this is negated by bringing it from reserve in turn 4 using ambush.
My worries are
1) By turn 4 its unlikely the enemy will be densely packed enough for the missile to have an effect
2) If the enemy is cc focused then all enemy may right on top of my troops putting them at risk of friendly fire.
Honestly the second one seems hilarious to me (I used play orks) and I like the fluff but I haven't heard of anybody managing to get a deathstrike off.
rhinoceraids wrote: Yeah I played Cadian. Was kind of crappy for an entire army to be it. I miss the mobility of elysians.
Going to run a Tallaran spear head. Super heavy aux. Deep striking in 2 demo tanks with heavy bolters with a tank commander and the shadowsword!
And then a Cadian firebase. (Manticore, 2 wevyrns), conscripts.
Hopefully fixes the mobility issue. I wish I could incorporate the tauros. But on the up side Sentinel powerlifters and Cyclops have the <regiment> keyword so they are good to go!
How wide is a shadowsword? It may be too large to outflank with.
Razerous wrote: Can hot-shot volley guns benefit from the Scion regiment detachment bonus?
If not, why not? Just checking out options...
All guns can, even things like grenades I think.
Fair. Specifically, heavy weapons like volley guns on Scions that deep-strike. I assume this is a no-go, due to the -1 to-hit.. Or is this any natural roll of a 6?
I want to like the chimera because it looks so much better than the god awful Taurox, but the weapon loadout and cost of the Taurox is much more attractive.
Waiting on the right Taurox alternative model from somewhere.
Razerous wrote:Fair. Specifically, heavy weapons like volley guns on Scions that deep-strike. I assume this is a no-go, due to the -1 to-hit.. Or is this any natural roll of a 6?
I think it is modified rolls. I never really like volleyguns specifically because of the heavy type.
ph34r wrote:Anyone have any idea when Forgeworld will FAQ the Elysians, Death Korps, and Renegades&Heretics lists to account for Doctrines and Plasma Gun Cost?
Judging by FWs previous form, it could be ages. The ABG list was never updated with all of the 6th Edition Guard changes, which annoyed me somewhat, Still, I often took those beast-hunter tanks even at the higher points cost.
vipoid wrote:With the new rules, does anyone use Chimeras?
If so, how do you outfit them and what do you use them to transport?
Also, when you use them, do you have most of your infantry in transports, or do you just use them for a few key squads?
I ask because I have 5 of the things, but I don't really know what to do with them in 8th.
Chimeras are expensive, so I would only take them if you are really going to use them to the fullest. You want to move up and dismount some short range firepower. As for weapons, dual flamers are a great combo if you want to get close, as all other guns get -1 to hit whilst moving. If you are Tallarn I can see some merit to taking cheaper ML/HB combos though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blacksails wrote: Waiting on the right Taurox alternative model from somewhere.
Blacksails wrote: Waiting on the right Taurox alternative model from somewhere.
Spoiler:
I'm about as a big a fan of Vic's stuff as anyone, but I still don't think it solves the fundamentally ungainly nature of the model. Its so top heavy and doesn't have the length to match its width. If it was longer and lower with two wheels at the back, it'd be okay. There's a conversion someone has done just like that which looks decent.
I'm just banking on Vic or Mad Robot doing a WWII inspired halftrack in the scale of 40k, to go with my future Matilda tanks
Looks halfway decent. The front fender could use some help conforming to the smaller wheels than the derpy tracks, but I think that conversion fixes a lot of what's wrong with the base model.
I quite like the riding height tbh, as I imagine it more like an MRAP, where the large ground clearance helps against mines. I just haven't liked any of the half track or six-wheeled conversions I have seen, as they all make the Taurox look too heavy. The things are tiny and are hard to pull off the increased wheel/track size on the model.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean, that is pretty good. Definitely one of the best I have seen. It helps that it looks like it could hold ten people.
Blacksails wrote: I want to like the chimera because it looks so much better than the god awful Taurox, but the weapon loadout and cost of the Taurox is much more attractive.
Waiting on the right Taurox alternative model from somewhere.
I've used 2 Chimeras in my 2k lists recently. I gotta admit, they were useful! Playing maelstrom increases their usefulness. I definitely think tallarn is the best unless you kit it with double flamers then Catachan is best. I converted mine like 10 years ago to have predator turrets with autocannons, so I'm kind of stuck with that, but I at least magnetized the hull weapons. Heavy flamers are money.
They come in handy to deny easy kill points. In my most recent game I fell back a missile launcher team and plasma gunner who survived melee, jumped them into my Chimera, then the Chimera peaced out 12" towards an OBJ, totally outpacing my opponent. And a unit that otherwise would not have been able to fire suddenly added a dozen lasgun shots, haha. Now, move move move could have helped cover the same ground but then those 3Ws would have been easy targets out in the open.
I have 2 Taurox with off road tires which I like because they remind me of MRAPS, specifically the Maxxpro. But I have a lot of nostalgia for my Chimeras. The turret swap just makes them look like an IFV.
Bottom line, our army is potent enough that you can spare points on a transport or 2 and find them to be useful. And tauroxes vs Chimeras come out to personal preference. I like the lasgun arrays, heavy flamers, and the ability to carry 12 models. But the Taurox is definitely a steal.
CaptainO wrote: I'm looking at running an outrider detachment so I can Ambush 2 x 2 Hellhound varients. This leaves space for one more unit.
I want to bring a deathstrike....
I've only heard negatives about how it wont get to fire the deathstrike missiles until turn 4 and will be destroyed long before that but this is negated by bringing it from reserve in turn 4 using ambush.
My worries are
1) By turn 4 its unlikely the enemy will be densely packed enough for the missile to have an effect
2) If the enemy is cc focused then all enemy may right on top of my troops putting them at risk of friendly fire.
Honestly the second one seems hilarious to me (I used play orks) and I like the fluff but I haven't heard of anybody managing to get a deathstrike off.
1. You have to bring it in turn 3 or lose it; it's still 'in reserve' unless you're playing a 'counts as destroyed isn't actually destroyed' game.
2. If the enemy is CC focused and they're in combat, in most cases you'll be happier firing the death strike anyway. There's actually value in forcing the issue by sacrificing a unit to maximise your AOE benefits.
Personally I stick mine behind a pair of bastions in the corner, and let the Big Red Tank (Shadow sword) provide the distraction grief until the missile is good and ready.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vipoid wrote: With the new rules, does anyone use Chimeras?
If so, how do you outfit them and what do you use them to transport?
Also, when you use them, do you have most of your infantry in transports, or do you just use them for a few key squads?
I ask because I have 5 of the things, but I don't really know what to do with them in 8th.
Double HBolters here; but then i'm a static gunline player, and double hbolters are deliciously efficient against the majority of problems I face. Sadly most of them were multi-laser chimeras before 8th and I haven't gotten round to ripping them apart yet :|
The Multi-Laser really got the bad bit of the stick in the codex; to my knowledge there is absolutely no situation when it's a better choice than a HBolter for the price bump :|
Question about the missing Rough Riders from the codex. With the rules about doctrines etc only effecting specific <Regiment> units and such, would bringing RR forward from the index work (like how they said to with the dropped Chaos stuff) ? Would they just not be able to benefit from any stratagems etc or would it remove your other bonus's and clash?
Rough riders have the <regiment> keyword, so you can bring them along fine and have Tallarn or whatever. The problem is that they are cavalry, not infantry or vehicles, so they don't get any benefit from the doctrines. Still, you can use unique stratagems like Ambush at least.
Thoughts on Sentinels One of the hotter topics surrounding the IG today is the use of the humble Sentinel, in both forms and with its wide array of weapon options. This essay is meant to discuss some of the basics and a few finer points of using this complicated little unit. Too many players fall into the trap of either seeing them as little more than a brigade tax, or on the other extreme, as raw damage dealers. As we’ll discuss, these offer a lot of options and abilities, but also have some drawbacks and limitations. Essentially, the various sentinels can do the following, in rough order of usefulness:
1) Fill out a brigade cheaply
2) Block deepstrikers with scout move (Scout only)
3) Act as a fairly quickly, fairly durable objective grabber
4) Serve as a heavy flamer vector
5) Assault shooty units
6) Serve as a heavy weapon platform
First off, as a brigade filler the sentinel is unmatched. Three multilaser scout sentinels run less than 150pts, and while they will accomplish little with their shooting, they can perform admirably grabbing objectives, blocking deep strikers, or tying up static shooters. If you want a brigade, do not need any firepower from the fast attack slot, look hard here. It is tempting to try to “kit out” sentinels, spending what seems like a little more to get more fire power, but only do so when appropriate for your army build and regiment. On the other hand, the most a sentinel can possibly cost is under 70pts, so if you have a weakness for a specific build, it is not a major investment. Still, unless you play to the sentinels strengths, extra points might not have the returns you wanted.
Second, scout sentinels can move pre-game, which can block deepstrikers, or provide a head start to objectives. This is a powerful ability, and IG do not have any other units which can do this. It is the main reason to take Scouts (the cost difference is piddling), and one I highly recommend. Make sure to maximize the use of each sentinels radius, as you can move them the full 9” out, and not leave a gap where the enemy can land. Ideally, sentinels should be nine inches out from your flanks, and nine inches up from the board edge, with the third one 18” from either other sentinel to provide a massive “no go” zone. Obviously, if your opponent does not have deepstrikers, consider using otherwise. Finally, don’t forget that if you are playing a mobile army, you may want to have the sentinels stay behind to prevent deployment behind you!
Third, sentinels can grab and hold objectives. This is where one of their advantages comes into play: their relatively high durability for the price. Six wounds, with T5 and a 4+ for Scouts, and T6 and 3+ for armored, give the sentinel a lot more durability than you expect from a 45-65 point unit. With either a scout head start, or by advancing, sentinels can often contest maelstrom objectives starting turn one. However… if they are the only armor in your army, you can’t expect them to last too long. Selecting whether to upgrade to armor, to me, depends on how much you like the pregame move (I like it a lot), but also on how much other heavy armor you have. In a list with three LRBTs, basilisks, and a hellhound, two armored sentinels are yet more higher toughness, 3+ units that require heavy weapons to deal with. Skew can be your friend, and every time your opponent shoots a lascannon or hellblaster at a sentinel, it is not shooting your Leman Russ. Presenting your enemy with hard choices is a good thing, so taking some armored sentinels, even if not superficially that strong, can really help, as there are too many hard targets for anti-tank shooting. I should note here that if you are running Steel Legion, Armored Sentinels become even tougher, ignoring the AP from a lot of common weapons, such krak grenades, bolt rifles, and autocannons. One note: don’t expect a single sentinel to really hold an objective against enemy pressure. Support it when needed, but sometimes being able to send a single sentinel against an objective forces your opponent to deal with it, instead of your main body.
Fourth, the sentinel has a decent movement, and can take a heavy flamer. This is pretty self evident, but heavy flamers are actually pretty good. Autohits ignore the movement penalty, 8” range gives these good threat radii, and AP1 is useful. If you are running catachans, there is really no reason not to run some heavy flamer sentinels, as the reroll is amazing. Just be careful of going overboard. For essentially the price of two heavy flamer scouts, you can get a hellhound with inferno cannon, which is far punchier, and substantially more durable. Catachans get the most use out of the heavy flamer, but even for other regiments it’s a solid compromise between cost and damage dealing. One exotic build is the armored sentinel with heavy flamer, which has a lot of the same benefits, but the lack of pregame movement to set up a killer turn one shot really hurts it. Still, if you like the additional durability and don’t see a lot of deepstrikers, it’s not a bad buy. As always, be aware of the point for point efficiency of the hellhound.
Fifth, the sentinel can sneak around and assault static shooters. This requires some finesse, but nothing bums out devestators more than getting assaulted turn one or two. Yes, your sentinel will die, but if you can stop a unit of dark reapers from shooting for a turn or two, that’s enough. It doesn’t come up a lot, but keep this trick in mind.
Finally, the sentinel, if nothing else, is a source of heavy weapons, for the same cost as a basic infantry squad. Assuming you have enough armor that the enemy isn’t keen on wasting lascannons on your sentinels, you can shoot with plasma or your own lascannons for the same price as an infantry squad. I’m not wild about this use, both because you also have troop taxes to pay, and also becausre there are some really good ways to include most heavy weapons aside from the sentinel. For example, the autocannon, while not a great weapon, has a clear niche (high invulnerable save multi-wound models and models with exactly two wounds… Storm Shield terminators are their best possible matchup). In the end, a weapon that loves shooting at bikes, primaris, and terminators can find a place. However, you have to look at the Taurox, which is only five points more than an armored sentinel, but has more wounds, is faster, and can take two autocannons. The missile launcher is a generalist weapon, and I don’t think much of that in the IG, who can easily field dozens of heavy weapons. However, you can take the plasma cannon or lascannon, the former of which is not available in infantry squads. However, you should be very careful about overcharging plasma on a sentinel, as it will be slain on a one. Harker or the Cadian help a lot here, obviously. My concern is generally that a plasma cannon sentinel costs more than half of a basilisk, for fewer shots, lower strength, and less range. You can also bolt plasma cannons in pairs unto Leman Russes. Still, a trio of Plasma sentinels under the cadian doctrine are only 165 points, fill the fast attack slot, and will do some work. Finally, if playing Tallarn, feel free to run lascannon sentinels. Move and shoot lascannons is always great! If you do this, look hard at the hunter killer missile, because that adds some punch for not that much.
I would be remiss if I didn’t point out Go Recon!, a stratagem that allows a sentinel to move an additional 2d6” instead of shooting. This will come up seldom, but when it does, you will score linebreaker or an objective, and feel really clever.
However, there are some issues. Sentinels are bad at combat. Like, really bad. On average, they’ll do as much damage as a taurox or chimera, which is woeful. The weapon doesn’t help much. They also can explode, even if they don’t degrade. Since they will die, be mindful of their blast radius. Also, as noted above, for nearly any offensive role, another unit can perform that role more efficiently, if not always more cheaply. I’m not 100% certain I would take sentinels if I were not running a brigade detachment, as there are just better units up and down the codex. Even in fast attack, three hellhounds are not exactly expensive, and provide some interesting options (but that’s another, albeit shorter, essay).
Overall, I think sentinels went from necessary evil in the Index to solid support units in the codex, thanks only to the addition of the doctrines. I think that there are some solid options, with Catachan heavy flamer scouts my favorite, but Tallarn or cadian Lascannon Armored sentinels are pretty decent. You still get a lot of utility out of three stock scouts, with all the movement and assault shenanigans available. Between these, astropaths, mortar squads, scions, and primaris psykers, building a cheap brigade is both possible and solid for the humble IG.
Interesting read Polonius. One thing I have been thinking about is using scout sentinels in squadrons to reduce the chances of giving away first blood. They are one of the only vehicles which doesn't separate when you deploy them, so you can get a 12 or 18 wound unit that would be much harder to kill. I was mainly thinking about this because I was taking 2 hellhounds and thought 4 sentinels worked pretty well.
One of the hotter topics surrounding the IG today is the use of the humble Sentinel, in both forms and with its wide array of weapon options. This essay is meant to discuss some of the basics and a few finer points of using this complicated little unit. Too many players fall into the trap of either seeing them as little more than a brigade tax, or on the other extreme, as raw damage dealers. As we’ll discuss, these offer a lot of options and abilities, but also have some drawbacks and limitations. Essentially, the various sentinels can do the following, in rough order of usefulness:
1) Fill out a brigade cheaply
2) Block deepstrikers with scout move (Scout only)
3) Act as a fairly quickly, fairly durable objective grabber
4) Serve as a heavy flamer vector
5) Assault shooty units
6) Serve as a heavy weapon platform
First off, as a brigade filler the sentinel is unmatched. Three multilaser scout sentinels run less than 150pts, and while they will accomplish little with their shooting, they can perform admirably grabbing objectives, blocking deep strikers, or tying up static shooters. If you want a brigade, do not need any firepower from the fast attack slot, look hard here. It is tempting to try to “kit out” sentinels, spending what seems like a little more to get more fire power, but only do so when appropriate for your army build and regiment. On the other hand, the most a sentinel can possibly cost is under 70pts, so if you have a weakness for a specific build, it is not a major investment. Still, unless you play to the sentinels strengths, extra points might not have the returns you wanted.
Second, scout sentinels can move pre-game, which can block deepstrikers, or provide a head start to objectives. This is a powerful ability, and IG do not have any other units which can do this. It is the main reason to take Scouts (the cost difference is piddling), and one I highly recommend. Make sure to maximize the use of each sentinels radius, as you can move them the full 9” out, and not leave a gap where the enemy can land. Ideally, sentinels should be nine inches out from your flanks, and nine inches up from the board edge, with the third one 18” from either other sentinel to provide a massive “no go” zone. Obviously, if your opponent does not have deepstrikers, consider using otherwise. Finally, don’t forget that if you are playing a mobile army, you may want to have the sentinels stay behind to prevent deployment behind you!
Third, sentinels can grab and hold objectives. This is where one of their advantages comes into play: their relatively high durability for the price. Six wounds, with T5 and a 4+ for Scouts, and T6 and 3+ for armored, give the sentinel a lot more durability than you expect from a 45-65 point unit. With either a scout head start, or by advancing, sentinels can often contest maelstrom objectives starting turn one. However… if they are the only armor in your army, you can’t expect them to last too long. Selecting whether to upgrade to armor, to me, depends on how much you like the pregame move (I like it a lot), but also on how much other heavy armor you have. In a list with three LRBTs, basilisks, and a hellhound, two armored sentinels are yet more higher toughness, 3+ units that require heavy weapons to deal with. Skew can be your friend, and every time your opponent shoots a lascannon or hellblaster at a sentinel, it is not shooting your Leman Russ. Presenting your enemy with hard choices is a good thing, so taking some armored sentinels, even if not superficially that strong, can really help, as there are too many hard targets for anti-tank shooting. I should note here that if you are running Steel Legion, Armored Sentinels become even tougher, ignoring the AP from a lot of common weapons, such krak grenades, bolt rifles, and autocannons. One note: don’t expect a single sentinel to really hold an objective against enemy pressure. Support it when needed, but sometimes being able to send a single sentinel against an objective forces your opponent to deal with it, instead of your main body.
Fourth, the sentinel has a decent movement, and can take a heavy flamer. This is pretty self evident, but heavy flamers are actually pretty good. Autohits ignore the movement penalty, 8” range gives these good threat radii, and AP1 is useful. If you are running catachans, there is really no reason not to run some heavy flamer sentinels, as the reroll is amazing. Just be careful of going overboard. For essentially the price of two heavy flamer scouts, you can get a hellhound with inferno cannon, which is far punchier, and substantially more durable. Catachans get the most use out of the heavy flamer, but even for other regiments it’s a solid compromise between cost and damage dealing. One exotic build is the armored sentinel with heavy flamer, which has a lot of the same benefits, but the lack of pregame movement to set up a killer turn one shot really hurts it. Still, if you like the additional durability and don’t see a lot of deepstrikers, it’s not a bad buy. As always, be aware of the point for point efficiency of the hellhound.
Fifth, the sentinel can sneak around and assault static shooters. This requires some finesse, but nothing bums out devestators more than getting assaulted turn one or two. Yes, your sentinel will die, but if you can stop a unit of dark reapers from shooting for a turn or two, that’s enough. It doesn’t come up a lot, but keep this trick in mind.
Finally, the sentinel, if nothing else, is a source of heavy weapons, for the same cost as a basic infantry squad. Assuming you have enough armor that the enemy isn’t keen on wasting lascannons on your sentinels, you can shoot with plasma or your own lascannons for the same price as an infantry squad. I’m not wild about this use, both because you also have troop taxes to pay, and also becausre there are some really good ways to include most heavy weapons aside from the sentinel. For example, the autocannon, while not a great weapon, has a clear niche (high invulnerable save multi-wound models and models with exactly two wounds… Storm Shield terminators are their best possible matchup). In the end, a weapon that loves shooting at bikes, primaris, and terminators can find a place. However, you have to look at the Taurox, which is only five points more than an armored sentinel, but has more wounds, is faster, and can take two autocannons. The missile launcher is a generalist weapon, and I don’t think much of that in the IG, who can easily field dozens of heavy weapons. However, you can take the plasma cannon or lascannon, the former of which is not available in infantry squads. However, you should be very careful about overcharging plasma on a sentinel, as it will be slain on a one. Harker or the Cadian help a lot here, obviously. My concern is generally that a plasma cannon sentinel costs more than half of a basilisk, for fewer shots, lower strength, and less range. You can also bolt plasma cannons in pairs unto Leman Russes. Still, a trio of Plasma sentinels under the cadian doctrine are only 165 points, fill the fast attack slot, and will do some work. Finally, if playing Tallarn, feel free to run lascannon sentinels. Move and shoot lascannons is always great! If you do this, look hard at the hunter killer missile, because that adds some punch for not that much.
I would be remiss if I didn’t point out Go Recon!, a stratagem that allows a sentinel to move an additional 2d6” instead of shooting. This will come up seldom, but when it does, you will score linebreaker or an objective, and feel really clever.
However, there are some issues. Sentinels are bad at combat. Like, really bad. On average, they’ll do as much damage as a taurox or chimera, which is woeful. The weapon doesn’t help much. They also can explode, even if they don’t degrade. Since they will die, be mindful of their blast radius. Also, as noted above, for nearly any offensive role, another unit can perform that role more efficiently, if not always more cheaply. I’m not 100% certain I would take sentinels if I were not running a brigade detachment, as there are just better units up and down the codex. Even in fast attack, three hellhounds are not exactly expensive, and provide some interesting options (but that’s another, albeit shorter, essay).
Overall, I think sentinels went from necessary evil in the Index to solid support units in the codex, thanks only to the addition of the doctrines. I think that there are some solid options, with Catachan heavy flamer scouts my favorite, but Tallarn or cadian Lascannon Armored sentinels are pretty decent. You still get a lot of utility out of three stock scouts, with all the movement and assault shenanigans available. Between these, astropaths, mortar squads, scions, and primaris psykers, building a cheap brigade is both possible and solid for the humble IG.
That was a fantastic read and very insightful. Great work.
Are you planning to do writeups like this for any other units?
vipoid wrote: That was a fantastic read and very insightful. Great work.
Are you planning to do writeups like this for any other units?
Well Polonius wrote this great article, so we may get the whole thing again this time.
As for which regiment to use, it really depends on playstyle. Vostroyan looks really nice, the increased range and +1 to hit stratagem are both good. Mordian could be fun if you want to gunline, Tallarn if you want mobile infantry. In fact, they all seem pretty good except Armageddon, as they are suited to mechanised forces. What sort of weapons were you thinking of fielding? Lots of flamers would suit catachan, for instance.
If I want to take 2-3 Assassins, do I need to take an inquisitor and a Vanguard detachment or can I take them as a part of my regular IG/AM detachment (i.e. AM Catachans)?
Razerous wrote: If I want to take 2-3 Assassins, do I need to take an inquisitor and a Vanguard detachment or can I take them as a part of my regular IG/AM detachment (i.e. AM Catachans)?
Assassins would make you lose your regimental doctrine. So whilst you can include them, it is not recommended.
Razerous wrote: If I want to take 2-3 Assassins, do I need to take an inquisitor and a Vanguard detachment or can I take them as a part of my regular IG/AM detachment (i.e. AM Catachans)?
The Assassins will break doctrines of theyre tossed into an AM detachment.
I currently run an Imperium Vanguard detachment with Celestine, 1-2 assassins, and a ministorum priest to buff the bullgryn in my main detachment. It's been pretty nasty so far.
Anyone else really annoyed that Tempestus cant fill out a Brigade Detachment? I had really been hoping that GW would flesh out MT with a couple new units (was really hoping for a sniper team personally) or at least allow them to take a couple other IG units with the MT keyword.
chaos0xomega wrote: Anyone else really annoyed that Tempestus cant fill out a Brigade Detachment? I had really been hoping that GW would flesh out MT with a couple new units (was really hoping for a sniper team personally) or at least allow them to take a couple other IG units with the MT keyword.
Why can't you field a Tempestus Punisher, isn't that allowed?
chaos0xomega wrote: Anyone else really annoyed that Tempestus cant fill out a Brigade Detachment? I had really been hoping that GW would flesh out MT with a couple new units (was really hoping for a sniper team personally) or at least allow them to take a couple other IG units with the MT keyword.
Why can't you field a Tempestus Punisher, isn't that allowed?
I believe you cannot replace <REGIMENT> with <MILITARUM TEMPESTUS> ever.
Well Militarum Tempestus never really deploys at brigade strength I guess. Fielding 3 battalions is easy enough though. 9 troops is a lot but you probably want to be taking loads of troops anyway, as they are the strength of the army.
.
but melta is still good at hunting big targets.
