gungo wrote: Best codex this edition by far.....
It's so well done...
And with tyranids out soon I wonder how well GSC will become when attached with a astra militarum detachment.
I'm not sure a codex blatantly more powerful than others is well done.
Stus67 wrote:I was thinking with the Consolidate Squads stratagem and the Laurels of Command relic you can pull off some zany stuff with Scions.
Drop two ten-man squads with a prime equipped with the laurels. Combine the two scions squads into a single twenty-man squad.
Prime orders Take Aim! and with the Laurels on a 4+ can order Elimination Protocol at the same time.
That's 20 Scions with 8 Plasma guns and 2 plasma pistols re-rolling 1s to hit, rolling additional shots on 6s, and re-rolling all failed to wounds on vehicles/monsters.
boi
Doesnt work like that. Combined Squads only work on Infatry Squads aka the Troop unit, not any squad with Infantry-type.
This is going to cause a lot of confusion
DoomMouse wrote:Do rough riders still gain the regimental bonuses if you use the index version? I've just converted 30 of them armed with plasma
Sure. They do have the [regiment]. Just remember that orders (probably) still wont work on them since ordered unit needs to be Infantry-type.
DoomMouse wrote: Do rough riders still gain the regimental bonuses if you use the index version? I've just converted 30 of them armed with plasma
The only doctrines that appear to buff Rough Riders are Cadia (re-roll 1s to hit when shooting if stationary) and Vostroya (+6" range for rapid fire weapons with at least 24" range).
gungo wrote: Plasmaguns are 15pnts on bs3 models, 12 for vets and still 7 pts on bs4.
Scions get another shot at halfrange on a 6+. Ironically this helps deepstrike plasmagun and not hot shot lasguns/melta.
They also have an order that allows them to reroll failed wound vs vehicles and monster creatures but that means no reroll 1s for plasma if you use it.
Baneblade variants all got huge buffs outside of regiment doctrines which further improve them. Price cut, d6 more shots, move and fire without penalty..... there is a new ogryn bodyguard that probably can eat wounds for tank characters. And pask which is already 2+ bs is Cadian which allows him to reroll 1 when he doesn't move.
Most infantry went down in price. Also combined squads allows you to almost never give up kill points because you can just keep combining squads for 1cp as long as you are near another infantry squad. I have no idea how they expect you to keep track of killpoints doing this unless each squad is marked different or you just don't get killpoints until the combined squad is gone.
Basilisks were good and now even better at -3ap.
Everyone was all hyped for catachan doctrine but thier order is kind of meh.. it allows you to reroll number of atks w flamers and ignore cover. Not extremely useful but ok on scout sentinels, I guess.
The best warlord trait gives you more cp and reroll 1 hit, wound, or saving throw per battle. I'm confused by this it's not per game or limited to the warlord so does this mean every single combat/shooting phase I can reroll 1 die?
3 new psychic powers with the best being -1 to hit a unit or maybe an 18in sniping psychic power that does a mortal wound on 2+, 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+.
You don't lose regimental doctrines with most AM add on units like commissars, bullgrysn, scions, priests, psykers and crusaders?
The warlord trait reroll looks like one free use of the standard strategem to me in the whole game. The use of the term battle is a little unusual, but I think it just means game.
There's an oddity about advisors and auxilia, because its questionable whether that would apply to an MT regiment detachment based on the MT regiment wording.
weapon options are priced for the army, not consistently.
Scions get far more value out of their plasma than marines do. It's not even close.
Stus67 wrote:I was thinking with the Consolidate Squads stratagem and the Laurels of Command relic you can pull off some zany stuff with Scions.
Drop two ten-man squads with a prime equipped with the laurels. Combine the two scions squads into a single twenty-man squad.
Prime orders Take Aim! and with the Laurels on a 4+ can order Elimination Protocol at the same time.
That's 20 Scions with 8 Plasma guns and 2 plasma pistols re-rolling 1s to hit, rolling additional shots on 6s, and re-rolling all failed to wounds on vehicles/monsters.
boi
Doesnt work like that. Combined Squads only work on Infatry Squads aka the Troop unit, not any squad with Infantry-type.
This is going to cause a lot of confusion
DoomMouse wrote:Do rough riders still gain the regimental bonuses if you use the index version? I've just converted 30 of them armed with plasma
Sure. They do have the [regiment]. Just remember that orders (probably) still wont work on them since ordered unit needs to be Infantry-type.
Ooh rip I was reading it as an infantry unit, not specifically the infantry squad.
Is not that a bit too much? Considering you can have a squad of 9 Ogres. Has that stratagem at least a limitation? Like you cant advance or charge...
Ofc a CSM can nullify the inv save, and a good mage can deny the witch... but isnt that a bit too much anyway?
The Scion extra shot on a 6+ doesn't work with the hot shot volley gun when you deepstrike since the -1 to moving applies to the heavy weapon. Which is super lame. Seems like scions are still railroaded into plasma even with the higher cost.
Does anyone know if you could combine 2 squads together (2 groups of Vallhallan guys) let's just say 2 10 man squads into a group of 20 then bring them back as a group of 20?
Asmodios wrote: Does anyone know if you could combine 2 squads together (2 groups of Vallhallan guys) let's just say 2 10 man squads into a group of 20 then bring them back as a group of 20?
"Send in the Next Wave" specifically forbids you from using it on a squad that used "Combined Squads" earlier in the game. That's actually how we first learned that "Combined Squads" was a thing.
Asmodios wrote: Does anyone know if you could combine 2 squads together (2 groups of Vallhallan guys) let's just say 2 10 man squads into a group of 20 then bring them back as a group of 20?
The returning to the field stratagem specifically forbids combined squads from being targeted.
I'm honestly not sure what combined squads are good for, company commanders are so cheap do you really need to burn cp to maximize orders?
Wulfey wrote: The Scion extra shot on a 6+ doesn't work with the hot shot volley gun when you deepstrike since the -1 to moving applies to the heavy weapon. Which is super lame. Seems like scions are still railroaded into plasma even with the higher cost.
Does the exact wording mean it works with the taurox prime? That'd be fairly great, if nothing else.
Guard isn't strong in the competitive scene, scions and conscripts are. Two overpowered units and they're obvious from all the lists. Cheap double tapping plasma and bubble wrap. Most of the rsst of the guard units weren't pulling their weight, and some downright sucked.
I wouldn't be surprised if conscripts get nerfed dowh the line again, this nerf is a lovetap. I don't use them anyway.
What? Commissars (both the characters and in general), Conscripts, Scions, Elysians, and Basilisks are all Guard, and they're all really strong. It's not my fault that they overshadow the rest of your faction.
Asmodios wrote: Does anyone know if you could combine 2 squads together (2 groups of Vallhallan guys) let's just say 2 10 man squads into a group of 20 then bring them back as a group of 20?
"Send in the Next Wave" specifically forbids you from using it on a squad that used "Combined Squads" earlier in the game. That's actually how we first learned that "Combined Squads" was a thing.
Thanks I assumed you couldn't but hadn't gotten a chance to read all the leaks just listens to a couple videos on them and hadn't herd it mentioned
So salt aside. What are people's thoughts on list building and Leman Russ options?
I've looked at building a fluffy TAC list, I prefer Catachans due to their fun character and they were my first army. But every time I go to build a list I gotta admit I lean towards Cadian rules. I feel I can play either because most of my army is a mash up of both kits and my own color scheme.
I'm excited to use Valkyries again. Since after they dump melta Scions or Bullgryn off they can now do things. I built mine with MRPs, heavy Bolters, and a Lascannon. So now I'm pretty happy with that
The issue I have with cadians is their doctrine can be mimicked fairly easy with special characters, harker for catachans and Yarrick for everyone. If you are using lots of mortar teams and want to be able to reroll all misses I could see cadia working well, but for tanks and artillery support catachan probably works better, as you can squeeze everything into the auras and get a powerful doctrine.
I think Valhallans are also underrated for Russ heavy armies, particularly the ones with shorter ranges. Keeping your 4+ bs till you are down to 3 wounds is nice.
What do people think about the basilisks vs the improved russes?
Very true. The issue with Catachan vs Cadian LRs is that Tank Commanders can only issue the reroll 1 order to other LRs. Whereas the Cadians have the ability to use Pask to issue reroll # of shots order to his tank commanders and if they stay still they reroll 1s anyway ...
Harker can barely fit my Manticore and Basilisk, mortars, and HWTs into his aura. No way can I fit LRs in there.
The cadian relic is actually very good. Once per battle and used start of the movement phase, gives Cadian units within 12" of the officer rerolls to 1's to-hit/wound until end of round. But against Chaos targets it turns into reroll all to-hit/wound rolls. It can be a nice little boost or massive punch to the face depending of your opponent.
Colonel Cross wrote: Very true. The issue with Catachan vs Cadian LRs is that Tank Commanders can only issue the reroll 1 order to other LRs. Whereas the Cadians have the ability to use Pask to issue reroll # of shots order to his tank commanders and if they stay still they reroll 1s anyway ...
Harker can barely fit my Manticore and Basilisk, mortars, and HWTs into his aura. No way can I fit LRs in there.
Oh that's right, I forgot they got the unique tank order. Hmmm... yeah they both end up playing similarly it seems. Catachan works better for artillery still, but with russes cadia can be more point efficient with Pask.
So mixed is probably the best choice. I mean pask+2 tank commanders will eat HQ slots anyways. Run them either in a cadian command detachment or battalion, then your artillery in a catachan battalion. Running the russes in a battalion is probably a bit better overall, but it might be less hassle with other players to toss them in the command detachment, so you aren't running infantry/conscripts from two different regiments with the same paint job. The russes all being their own separate detachment and regiment isn't that hard for your opponent to remember either.
Wulfey wrote: The Scion extra shot on a 6+ doesn't work with the hot shot volley gun when you deepstrike since the -1 to moving applies to the heavy weapon. Which is super lame. Seems like scions are still railroaded into plasma even with the higher cost.
Colonel Cross wrote: Very true. The issue with Catachan vs Cadian LRs is that Tank Commanders can only issue the reroll 1 order to other LRs. Whereas the Cadians have the ability to use Pask to issue reroll # of shots order to his tank commanders and if they stay still they reroll 1s anyway ...
Harker can barely fit my Manticore and Basilisk, mortars, and HWTs into his aura. No way can I fit LRs in there.
Oh that's right, I forgot they got the unique tank order. Hmmm... yeah they both end up playing similarly it seems. Catachan works better for artillery still, but with russes cadia can be more point efficient with Pask.
So mixed is probably the best choice. I mean pask+2 tank commanders will eat HQ slots anyways. Run them either in a cadian command detachment or battalion, then your artillery in a catachan battalion. Running the russes in a battalion is probably a bit better overall, but it might be less hassle with other players to toss them in the command detachment, so you aren't running infantry/conscripts from two different regiments with the same paint job. The russes all being their own separate detachment and regiment isn't that hard for your opponent to remember either.
I agree. I would run a Supreme Command Detachment with Pask + 2 HQ Russes and a Baneblade. Then I would run a BN with all my catachan infantry and artillery. Theoretically if I were attempting to build as strong a list as possible.
Wulfey wrote: The Scion extra shot on a 6+ doesn't work with the hot shot volley gun when you deepstrike since the -1 to moving applies to the heavy weapon. Which is super lame. Seems like scions are still railroaded into plasma even with the higher cost.
I don't think this is how it would work.
Modifiers would definitely apply. If you're at -1 to hit, because for example you're firing a heavy weapon after deep striking, you can never roll a 6+. It's the same as if you were overcharging plasma and shooting at a flyer. On the other hand, if you can somehow get +1 to hit, you get a lot more out of the doctrine. With no modifiers, it's a 17% boost in damage. At +1 to hit it's a 33% boost in damage. I'm not sure if there's anything that can give a Scion unit +1 to hit, though.
Wulfey wrote: The Scion extra shot on a 6+ doesn't work with the hot shot volley gun when you deepstrike since the -1 to moving applies to the heavy weapon. Which is super lame. Seems like scions are still railroaded into plasma even with the higher cost.
I don't think this is how it would work.
Modifiers would definitely apply. If you're at -1 to hit, because for example you're firing a heavy weapon after deep striking, you can never roll a 6+. It's the same as if you were overcharging plasma and shooting at a flyer. On the other hand, if you can somehow get +1 to hit, you get a lot more out of the doctrine. With no modifiers, it's a 17% boost in damage. At +1 to hit it's a 33% boost in damage. I'm not sure if there's anything that can give a Scion unit +1 to hit, though.
Maybe a searchlight? Not sure if theyre regiment specific though... (if they are, itd be a no-go...)
Wulfey wrote: The Scion extra shot on a 6+ doesn't work with the hot shot volley gun when you deepstrike since the -1 to moving applies to the heavy weapon. Which is super lame. Seems like scions are still railroaded into plasma even with the higher cost.
I don't think this is how it would work.
Modifiers would definitely apply. If you're at -1 to hit, because for example you're firing a heavy weapon after deep striking, you can never roll a 6+. It's the same as if you were overcharging plasma and shooting at a flyer. On the other hand, if you can somehow get +1 to hit, you get a lot more out of the doctrine. With no modifiers, it's a 17% boost in damage. At +1 to hit it's a 33% boost in damage. I'm not sure if there's anything that can give a Scion unit +1 to hit, though.
I see that the MT doctrine applies to any model (rather than a restriction to just infantry) with the <Militarum Tempestus> faction, and there is no restriction (unlike the Index) barring you making tanks, sentinels, etc., from the MT and able to benefit from the doctrine.
So, are there any interesting units that could benefit from this? Anything with a heavy weapon would need to remain stationary to avoid the -1 to hit penalty, but something like an Earthshaker cannon or even the humble Leman Russ Battle cannon could bring the hurt. Although in my mind, sentinels would be fluffier for the MT (fast and mobile) - extra autocannon shots, maybe? Also makes Hunter-Killer missiles a bit more valuable, too.
I could see the Taurox gatling cannon but come on, nobody needs to be adding MT regiment tag to anything outside of that list. Guard players are getting enough crap from the codex with legal abuse, no need to break the rules.
Colonel Cross wrote: I could see the Taurox gatling cannon but come on, nobody needs to be adding MT regiment tag to anything outside of that list. Guard players are getting enough crap from the codex with legal abuse, no need to break the rules.
Plus it'll just be faq'd anyways. Presumably at least. Not that it really seems much better than other tactics though.
Colonel Cross wrote: I agree. I would run a Supreme Command Detachment with Pask + 2 HQ Russes and a Baneblade. Then I would run a BN with all my catachan infantry and artillery. Theoretically if I were attempting to build as strong a list as possible.
Yeah, that's always the thing about tactics threads, half the time this stuff ends up being massive overkill in any random friendly game and you have to deliberately weaken your list.
The best use of the MT doctrine would probably be to just take a 10-man squad full of lasguns and run them right up to a target (maybe hopping out of a Taurox) to use FRFSRF, since they need to be within 9" to use it and they want to throw a lot of dice around to fish for 6s. Then they just let the AP-2 do all the heavy lifting.
If they really did remove the restriction on putting the MT keyword on non-MT models, then MT searchlights are potentially horrifying. For one thing, their ability to grant immunity to Gets Hot means a plasma command squad under the effect of a searchlight can use their Elimination Protocols order to re-roll all to-wound rolls instead of using the Aim order to prevent overheating. However, it also interacts with their doctrine: they'll be getting extra shots on 5 and 6 instead of just 6 while under the effect of a searchlight.
Also, because their doctrine isn't restricted to any particular weapon, anything that throws a lot of dice around could end up throwing even more dice at the problem.
Colonel Cross wrote: I could see the Taurox gatling cannon but come on, nobody needs to be adding MT regiment tag to anything outside of that list. Guard players are getting enough crap from the codex with legal abuse, no need to break the rules.
Plus it'll just be faq'd anyways. Presumably at least. Not that it really seems much better than other tactics though.
Colonel Cross wrote: I agree. I would run a Supreme Command Detachment with Pask + 2 HQ Russes and a Baneblade. Then I would run a BN with all my catachan infantry and artillery. Theoretically if I were attempting to build as strong a list as possible.
Yeah, that's always the thing about tactics threads, half the time this stuff ends up being massive overkill in any random friendly game and you have to deliberately weaken your list.
And I was already having difficulty building a list which was fun for both myself and my opponent. It is really difficult to find that balance of having a chance at winning without just easily tabling my friends :/
ross-128 wrote: The best use of the MT doctrine would probably be to just take a 10-man squad full of lasguns and run them right up to a target (maybe hopping out of a Taurox) to use FRFSRF, since they need to be within 9" to use it and they want to throw a lot of dice around to fish for 6s. Then they just let the AP-2 do all the heavy lifting.
If they really did remove the restriction on putting the MT keyword on non-MT models, then MT searchlights are potentially horrifying. For one thing, their ability to grant immunity to Gets Hot means a plasma command squad under the effect of a searchlight can use their Elimination Protocols order to re-roll all to-wound rolls instead of using the Aim order to prevent overheating. However, it also interacts with their doctrine: they'll be getting extra shots on 5 and 6 instead of just 6 while under the effect of a searchlight.
Also, because their doctrine isn't restricted to any particular weapon, anything that throws a lot of dice around could end up throwing even more dice at the problem.
Exploding 6s will be easiest to manage with both HSVG and Plasma, and I think anyway that both are the best payoff for it anyway.
I was looking at the rules for Pask and tank commanders and discovered something that I'm not sure if I should be happy or disturbed about.
In the index, the knight commander rule has the sentence "Note that knight commander Pask can issue orders to other Cadian Leman Russ Characters" This sentence has been removed in the index.
The tank commander index has "(though the unit you pick cannot be a character)" when describing the tank order rule. This has also been removed.
At first, I just saw the Pask change, which doesn't seem to change the RAW, but could point to a change in RAI for a future FAQ.
Then I checked the tank commander and saw the character part missing. Unless there is another section of the codex that forbid the orders to characters, It seems like everyone can order each other, including another one ordering Pask.
I honestly have no idea what the intent is here, but the cynic in me doesn't want to get too excited here.
Crazyterran wrote: Does Pask still have a better BS or was his only thing the ability to order tank commanders?
Pask still gets to order 2 orders per turn, is BS2+ and is actually still a character.
And i've always found it sillyt that you couldnt order your own tank. The commander is just the brains of the tank he isnt doing the legwork. The better BS is represented by the veteran crew they have (and in case of Pask his uncanny leadership ability). In fact there was a lore snippet about pask when he was fighting against Red Corsairs and was ordering his crew around with deadly efficiency.
And personally I think plasma, even if it almost double in the cost, is still the way to go with Scions. When deepstriking the only weapons that can get anything out of their new regiment rules are plasmas and grenade launchers. Everything else is out of range. And since GLs dont do any heavy lifting the plasma is still your primary workhorse. They pay the price for their premium performance (like they should) but are now actually just better than before when you factor in regiment bonus, relics and stratagems.
Does someone know if a Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment is enough to take a Baneblade AND get the Regimetn keyword? Or do I have to take a Baneblade in a Supreme Command Detachment?
Hm... does anyone know if the deathmask of Ollanius relic specifies infantry as its carrier? On an officer or commissar, its nothing special, but a tank commander with 4++ and d3 wound regen... could be something, no?
Exploding 6s will be easiest to manage with both HSVG and Plasma, and I think anyway that both are the best payoff for it anyway.
Keep in mind that the HSVG will count as having moved in almost every circumstance in which you'd be deploying and using Scions, whether from a Valk or Taurox Prime, or deep striking in. That means it actually won't benefit from the exploding 6's that often.
Paintalist wrote:Does someone know if a Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment is enough to take a Baneblade AND get the Regimetn keyword? Or do I have to take a Baneblade in a Supreme Command Detachment?
Tyr13 wrote: Hm... does anyone know if the deathmask of Ollanius relic specifies infantry as its carrier? On an officer or commissar, its nothing special, but a tank commander with 4++ and d3 wound regen... could be something, no?
Its infantry only. But you can give it to Ogryn Bodyguard. Combined with Slab Shield he gets whopping 2++.
With the way these orders work right now it would make more sense just to let them order themselves.
As it stands you have an interaction like this:
Tank Commander 1: "Oi pound them to dust!"
Tank Commander 2: "Great idea! Hey, you should pound them to dust too!
Tank Commander 1: "...Brilliant!"
While silly, it's kind of weird way for the rules to work.
On the table top though, I want to run 3 (HQ) LRBT while using pask and my newly revived tank commissar. I may be wrong but I don't think the tank commissar can give orders. The rules, as they stand will let me get full order saturation between the 3 of them.
Well I'd say the biggest reason I want to use him is that I like the model. But the list I've been really wanting to run with the new codex consists of the 3 Russes, a few artillery units and sentinels ( enough for brigade) and a bunch of infantry and veteran squads. Even just a leadership bubble will help with keeping them in the fight.
I could see a commissar tank being useful for non conscript screening infantry squads. If a 30 man conscript blob is unwieldy you could have a few 10 man regular guardsman squads screen some armor and not instantly run away and make battalion tax easy.
Hey guys, does anyone have seen the new points values for the Taurox Prime and its weapons, as well as the new point cost of the Scions' guns ? I read that HSVG went down to 6, and Plasma rifles went up to 15 for Scions but I don't know about the rest. Anyone have a source please ? Thanks !
I have just bought a LRBT but I can’t decide which variant to build it as. I currently have options for a battle cannon, vanquisher cannon, executioner x2, punisher, and demolisher (1 executioner, the punisher and demolisher are magnetised to the same turret) and I have 3 hulls (this new one is my fourth). I’m thinking either a second battle cannon or exterminator autocannon. Any advice?
edbradders wrote: I have just bought a LRBT but I can’t decide which variant to build it as. I currently have options for a battle cannon, vanquisher cannon, executioner x2, punisher, and demolisher (1 executioner, the punisher and demolisher are magnetised to the same turret) and I have 3 hulls (this new one is my fourth). I’m thinking either a second battle cannon or exterminator autocannon. Any advice?
edbradders wrote: I have just bought a LRBT but I can’t decide which variant to build it as. I currently have options for a battle cannon, vanquisher cannon, executioner x2, punisher, and demolisher (1 executioner, the punisher and demolisher are magnetised to the same turret) and I have 3 hulls (this new one is my fourth). I’m thinking either a second battle cannon or exterminator autocannon. Any advice?
Thanks,
Ed
All depends what regiment you are planning to go with, as they make different weapons more viable. For instance, Cadians have a tank order to reroll the number of shots for turrets, which would make battlcannons, demolishers and executioners suited to them. Catachans have a similar doctrine, making flamers sponsons and such better for them. Personally, I am looking at a Tallarn armoured company list as I love mobile armour. They get to ignore -1 to hit when moving. Previously I have tended towards flamers as they could move with no penalty. However, I am thinking that I may go back to the classic las/bolter tank to save points and increase range.
I'm interested to see if the Vanquisher tank commander is viable with 2 shots, or if FW gets the co-ax version updated soon. I have a mars al;pha vanquisher which makes a lovely command tank but has not been a great variant for a while.
I think that a common question to Guard posts is going to be "what do you want your army to do?". Mobile Tallarn tanks, durable Valhallan tanks, elite shooting Cadians, overwatching Mordians, there are so many choices now. These regiments all have different weapons that they will want to use to get the most out of them too. No point in giving the Mordians flamers, as they make no use of the increased hance to hit that they get.
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Still need help picking a doctrine for my SHTR if you guys are up for helping... can give details if so.
Valhallan has a lovely rule making your super heavies stay at peak efficiency for much longer. I am going Tallarn for Russes but their rules don't offer much to super heavies. You could just go for Cadians if you never want to move, or Catachan if you want to use a lot of flamers.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Still need help picking a doctrine for my SHTR if you guys are up for helping... can give details if so.
Valhallan has a lovely rule making your super heavies stay at peak efficiency for much longer. I am going Tallarn for Russes but their rules don't offer much to super heavies. You could just go for Cadians if you never want to move, or Catachan if you want to use a lot of flamers.
Well, the problem with Valhallan is that in my experience people focus-fire one superheavy down at a time, so it'll only ever help one tank and that's if it's not instantly obliterated in one shooting phase (surprisingly common).
Cadians are a no-go because I bring Trojans, which are +100 pts per tank but give them re-rolls and of course are a separate model.
I have considered Armageddon for fluff reasons, since the solar system that they're produced from is known for a specific ultra-hard alloy of adamantium that comes from only one archaeotech forge that the Mechanicus has and is of course unwilling to copy (think like the Aetherium Forge in Skyrim, kinda). The ignoring -1 AP weapons rule is fluffy but comparatively useless.
I have considered Tallarn for fluff reasons as well: as a comparatively urban combat regiment, being trained to move fast is great. The -1 to hit for shooting after advancing sucks, but being able to shoot after advancing makes sense. It's just unhelpful though, much like the Armageddon one.
Catachan are hilarious, because I can re-roll one of the dice for the main gun when it fires. Not sure how to fluff that other than "they shoot really hard and super explody shells guys!" Maybe call them siege shells or somesuch? I don't use many flamers though.
Mordian would be funny, as the tanks are always within 3" of a Trojan (and therefore overwatch on a 5+ even without the 1CP stratagem that makes it a 4+) and Baneblades can always overwatch...
Depends on how I am feeling. I have 7 companies to choose from:
My 1st and 3rd are Baneblade companies, with the "classic" loadout: one set of rear-mounted sponsons with lascannon and twin heavy bolter, then the standard armament. 1st company gets pintle heavy stubbers as well.
2nd and 4th companies are Stormsword 'siege' or 'assault' companies. 2nd are the cheapo company with no sponsons, just one twin heavy bolter and one stormsword siege cannon per tank. The 4th company has a better loadout, with the two 'lesser' tanks having one set of lascannon + twin HB sponsons (for a total of 3 twin HB, 2 lascannons, and the stormsword cannon) and the command tank has an extra set of the same sponsons (for a total of 5 twin heavy bolters, 4 lascannons, and the stormsword cannon).
5th Company are stormhammers with the Stormhammer Cannon, 4 Lascannons, 4 Heavy Bolters, and one Twin Battlecannon. The command tank replaces the 4 Heavy bolters with 4 Heavy Flamers.
6th company are Valdor Tank Hunters with 1 Neutron Laser and 1 Lascannon per tank.
7th Company are the 'transport' company -3 barebones Banehammers with one twin heavy bolter and the Tremor cannon per tank.
Just use steel legion or vosroyan depending on setup.
Reason being steel legion isn't all that but since you have almost no infantry and 3 superheavies all of your opponents anti infantry weapons are going into your SHVs. This actually makes the -1ap ability useful and likely to save your tanks from the mass anti infantry meta we are currently playing.
Vostoyan has 2 benefits 1) if you use a lot of multi melta or heavy bolters etc 30in range helps. 2) for 1cp per SHV you increase all thier shooting by 1 <-this is huge... even the warlord trait is decent if you try to charge with your warlord w reroll to hit and wound in combat.
gungo wrote: Just use steel legion or vosroyan depending on setup.
Reason being steel legion isn't all that but since you have almost no infantry and 3 superheavies all of your opponents anti infantry weapons are going into your SHVs. This actually makes the -1ap ability useful and likely to save your tanks from the mass anti infantry meta we are currently playing.
Vostoyan has 2 benefits 1) if you use a lot of multi melta or heavy bolters etc 30in range helps. 2) for 1cp per SHV you increase all thier shooting by 1 <-this is huge... even the warlord trait is decent if you try to charge with your warlord w reroll to hit and wound in combat.
Yes. I was thinking that. Though with Trojans the +1 to hit is less awesome (since I get re-rolls in the Shooting Phase). I have seriously considered Mordian because Baneblades can never be stopped from overwatching (except by psychic powers) and so get to overwatch every single unit that charges them. Keeping a Trojan within 3" (which I already do) makes that overwatch hit on a 5+, and I can blow the Defensive Gunners stratagem to make it hit on a 4+. So yay, free shooting phases, except possibly against multiple units.
edbradders wrote: I have just bought a LRBT but I can’t decide which variant to build it as. I currently have options for a battle cannon, vanquisher cannon, executioner x2, punisher, and demolisher (1 executioner, the punisher and demolisher are magnetised to the same turret) and I have 3 hulls (this new one is my fourth). I’m thinking either a second battle cannon or exterminator autocannon. Any advice?
Thanks,
Ed
Magnets.
I was thinking magnets. Would it be easy enough to magnetise the LRBT turret? the demolisher was easy enough to magnetise as the weapons are separate from the hinge bit.
edbradders wrote: I have just bought a LRBT but I can’t decide which variant to build it as. I currently have options for a battle cannon, vanquisher cannon, executioner x2, punisher, and demolisher (1 executioner, the punisher and demolisher are magnetised to the same turret) and I have 3 hulls (this new one is my fourth). I’m thinking either a second battle cannon or exterminator autocannon. Any advice?
Thanks,
Ed
Magnets.
I was thinking magnets. Would it be easy enough to magnetise the LRBT turret? the demolisher was easy enough to magnetise as the weapons are separate from the hinge bit.
It is. I shaved off the pegs on the guns and replaced them with magnets. Two magnets on the inside of the turret and now I can choose my gun.
edbradders wrote: I have just bought a LRBT but I can’t decide which variant to build it as. I currently have options for a battle cannon, vanquisher cannon, executioner x2, punisher, and demolisher (1 executioner, the punisher and demolisher are magnetised to the same turret) and I have 3 hulls (this new one is my fourth). I’m thinking either a second battle cannon or exterminator autocannon. Any advice?
Thanks,
Ed
Magnets.
I was thinking magnets. Would it be easy enough to magnetise the LRBT turret? the demolisher was easy enough to magnetise as the weapons are separate from the hinge bit.
It is. I shaved off the pegs on the guns and replaced them with magnets. Two magnets on the inside of the turret and now I can choose my gun.
I never thought about doing it that way. Thanks, I’ll give it a go
I've done that before on a predator and those unmanned cannon things that had the battle cannon turrets when fortifications were the hot new thing. Can confirm it works really well with the right size of magnet.
That might be a little small. I think I used 1/4" ones, because that was what I picked for vehicle size ones. I think that's like 6 mm or so. Just have to play with it though. They'll be a lot stronger if you can get them to sit flush against each other.
gungo wrote: Just use steel legion or vosroyan depending on setup.
Reason being steel legion isn't all that but since you have almost no infantry and 3 superheavies all of your opponents anti infantry weapons are going into your SHVs. This actually makes the -1ap ability useful and likely to save your tanks from the mass anti infantry meta we are currently playing.
Vostoyan has 2 benefits 1) if you use a lot of multi melta or heavy bolters etc 30in range helps. 2) for 1cp per SHV you increase all thier shooting by 1 <-this is huge... even the warlord trait is decent if you try to charge with your warlord w reroll to hit and wound in combat.
Yes. I was thinking that. Though with Trojans the +1 to hit is less awesome (since I get re-rolls in the Shooting Phase). I have seriously considered Mordian because Baneblades can never be stopped from overwatching (except by psychic powers) and so get to overwatch every single unit that charges them. Keeping a Trojan within 3" (which I already do) makes that overwatch hit on a 5+, and I can blow the Defensive Gunners stratagem to make it hit on a 4+. So yay, free shooting phases, except possibly against multiple units.
Baneblades get to shoot if a unit is within 1". That does not mean they get to overwatch, unless the new codex changed something.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Still need help picking a doctrine for my SHTR if you guys are up for helping... can give details if so.
Valhallan has a lovely rule making your super heavies stay at peak efficiency for much longer. I am going Tallarn for Russes but their rules don't offer much to super heavies. You could just go for Cadians if you never want to move, or Catachan if you want to use a lot of flamers.
Well, the problem with Valhallan is that in my experience people focus-fire one superheavy down at a time, so it'll only ever help one tank and that's if it's not instantly obliterated in one shooting phase (surprisingly common).
Cadians are a no-go because I bring Trojans, which are +100 pts per tank but give them re-rolls and of course are a separate model.
I have considered Armageddon for fluff reasons, since the solar system that they're produced from is known for a specific ultra-hard alloy of adamantium that comes from only one archaeotech forge that the Mechanicus has and is of course unwilling to copy (think like the Aetherium Forge in Skyrim, kinda). The ignoring -1 AP weapons rule is fluffy but comparatively useless.
I have considered Tallarn for fluff reasons as well: as a comparatively urban combat regiment, being trained to move fast is great. The -1 to hit for shooting after advancing sucks, but being able to shoot after advancing makes sense. It's just unhelpful though, much like the Armageddon one.
Catachan are hilarious, because I can re-roll one of the dice for the main gun when it fires. Not sure how to fluff that other than "they shoot really hard and super explody shells guys!" Maybe call them siege shells or somesuch? I don't use many flamers though.
Mordian would be funny, as the tanks are always within 3" of a Trojan (and therefore overwatch on a 5+ even without the 1CP stratagem that makes it a 4+) and Baneblades can always overwatch...
Best use of tallarn for superheavies is their stratagem. Hide a hellhammer first turn, bring it in 9" away from the enemy, shoot and then charge in with "crush them". Could be quite dangerous?
gungo wrote: Just use steel legion or vosroyan depending on setup.
Reason being steel legion isn't all that but since you have almost no infantry and 3 superheavies all of your opponents anti infantry weapons are going into your SHVs. This actually makes the -1ap ability useful and likely to save your tanks from the mass anti infantry meta we are currently playing.
Vostoyan has 2 benefits 1) if you use a lot of multi melta or heavy bolters etc 30in range helps. 2) for 1cp per SHV you increase all thier shooting by 1 <-this is huge... even the warlord trait is decent if you try to charge with your warlord w reroll to hit and wound in combat.
Yes. I was thinking that. Though with Trojans the +1 to hit is less awesome (since I get re-rolls in the Shooting Phase). I have seriously considered Mordian because Baneblades can never be stopped from overwatching (except by psychic powers) and so get to overwatch every single unit that charges them. Keeping a Trojan within 3" (which I already do) makes that overwatch hit on a 5+, and I can blow the Defensive Gunners stratagem to make it hit on a 4+. So yay, free shooting phases, except possibly against multiple units.
Baneblades get to shoot if a unit is within 1". That does not mean they get to overwatch, unless the new codex changed something.
They do, in fact, get to overwatch.
The Steel Behemoth rule says "It [the Baneblade] may fire its weapons if enemy models are within 1"." It does not specify a phase, or a time, or whatever - simply a blanket rule overriding the rule that says you cannot fire if enemy units are within 1".
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is a more detailed analysis complete with accurate wording:
Overwatch rule, BRBpg. 182 wrote: A unit can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are enemy models within 1" of it.
Steel Behemoth rule, Index Imperium 2 pg. various wrote: It [the model] can also still fire if enemy units are within 1" of it (but only it's twin heavy bolter or twin heavy flamer can target units that are within 1" of it - its other guns must target other units).
Depends on how I am feeling. I have 7 companies to choose from:
My 1st and 3rd are Baneblade companies, with the "classic" loadout: one set of rear-mounted sponsons with lascannon and twin heavy bolter, then the standard armament. 1st company gets pintle heavy stubbers as well.
2nd and 4th companies are Stormsword 'siege' or 'assault' companies. 2nd are the cheapo company with no sponsons, just one twin heavy bolter and one stormsword siege cannon per tank. The 4th company has a better loadout, with the two 'lesser' tanks having one set of lascannon + twin HB sponsons (for a total of 3 twin HB, 2 lascannons, and the stormsword cannon) and the command tank has an extra set of the same sponsons (for a total of 5 twin heavy bolters, 4 lascannons, and the stormsword cannon).
5th Company are stormhammers with the Stormhammer Cannon, 4 Lascannons, 4 Heavy Bolters, and one Twin Battlecannon. The command tank replaces the 4 Heavy bolters with 4 Heavy Flamers.
6th company are Valdor Tank Hunters with 1 Neutron Laser and 1 Lascannon per tank.
7th Company are the 'transport' company -3 barebones Banehammers with one twin heavy bolter and the Tremor cannon per tank.
So of all of the super heavies I picked up the one you don't run at all? Is the shadowsword that bad as part of a company?
Depends on how I am feeling. I have 7 companies to choose from:
My 1st and 3rd are Baneblade companies, with the "classic" loadout: one set of rear-mounted sponsons with lascannon and twin heavy bolter, then the standard armament. 1st company gets pintle heavy stubbers as well.
2nd and 4th companies are Stormsword 'siege' or 'assault' companies. 2nd are the cheapo company with no sponsons, just one twin heavy bolter and one stormsword siege cannon per tank. The 4th company has a better loadout, with the two 'lesser' tanks having one set of lascannon + twin HB sponsons (for a total of 3 twin HB, 2 lascannons, and the stormsword cannon) and the command tank has an extra set of the same sponsons (for a total of 5 twin heavy bolters, 4 lascannons, and the stormsword cannon).
5th Company are stormhammers with the Stormhammer Cannon, 4 Lascannons, 4 Heavy Bolters, and one Twin Battlecannon. The command tank replaces the 4 Heavy bolters with 4 Heavy Flamers.
6th company are Valdor Tank Hunters with 1 Neutron Laser and 1 Lascannon per tank.
7th Company are the 'transport' company -3 barebones Banehammers with one twin heavy bolter and the Tremor cannon per tank.
So of all of the super heavies I picked up the one you don't run at all? Is the shadowsword that bad as part of a company?
No! The shadowsword is a fantastic tank!
Sadly, though, the fluff (while not the crunch) for the Shadowsword is that it has to disconnect its reactor from the drive train and connect it to the Volcano Cannon's capacitors to fire, rendering it immobile for a good 30 seconds or so while the primary weapon charges. Once it's charged, it can move about and fire, but then it has to disconnect and charge again.
The Shadowsword is very much an ambush predator.
The Valdor, on the other hand, seemed like a better tank destroyer for a urban-combat style regiment that I am going for - small enough that it can still be an ambush predator among the towering hives of the 41st Millenium, and armed with a fantastic primary weapon, but able to shoot & scoot in a way that the shadowsword cannot.
That said, I am considering a Shadowsword company as my eighth, once I finish the seventh. Even with it's crippling abilities, for a siege regiment it would be useful to park outside the city and vaporize select buildings, essentially acting as artillery with it's long range and hugely destructive main weapon.
Depends on how I am feeling. I have 7 companies to choose from:
My 1st and 3rd are Baneblade companies, with the "classic" loadout: one set of rear-mounted sponsons with lascannon and twin heavy bolter, then the standard armament. 1st company gets pintle heavy stubbers as well.
2nd and 4th companies are Stormsword 'siege' or 'assault' companies. 2nd are the cheapo company with no sponsons, just one twin heavy bolter and one stormsword siege cannon per tank. The 4th company has a better loadout, with the two 'lesser' tanks having one set of lascannon + twin HB sponsons (for a total of 3 twin HB, 2 lascannons, and the stormsword cannon) and the command tank has an extra set of the same sponsons (for a total of 5 twin heavy bolters, 4 lascannons, and the stormsword cannon).
5th Company are stormhammers with the Stormhammer Cannon, 4 Lascannons, 4 Heavy Bolters, and one Twin Battlecannon. The command tank replaces the 4 Heavy bolters with 4 Heavy Flamers.
6th company are Valdor Tank Hunters with 1 Neutron Laser and 1 Lascannon per tank.
7th Company are the 'transport' company -3 barebones Banehammers with one twin heavy bolter and the Tremor cannon per tank.
So of all of the super heavies I picked up the one you don't run at all? Is the shadowsword that bad as part of a company?
Does killing a landraider per turn sound bad? The Shadowsword is excellent, even better post codex.
gungo wrote: Just use steel legion or vosroyan depending on setup.
Reason being steel legion isn't all that but since you have almost no infantry and 3 superheavies all of your opponents anti infantry weapons are going into your SHVs. This actually makes the -1ap ability useful and likely to save your tanks from the mass anti infantry meta we are currently playing.
Vostoyan has 2 benefits 1) if you use a lot of multi melta or heavy bolters etc 30in range helps. 2) for 1cp per SHV you increase all thier shooting by 1 <-this is huge... even the warlord trait is decent if you try to charge with your warlord w reroll to hit and wound in combat.
Yes. I was thinking that. Though with Trojans the +1 to hit is less awesome (since I get re-rolls in the Shooting Phase). I have seriously considered Mordian because Baneblades can never be stopped from overwatching (except by psychic powers) and so get to overwatch every single unit that charges them. Keeping a Trojan within 3" (which I already do) makes that overwatch hit on a 5+, and I can blow the Defensive Gunners stratagem to make it hit on a 4+. So yay, free shooting phases, except possibly against multiple units.
Baneblades get to shoot if a unit is within 1". That does not mean they get to overwatch, unless the new codex changed something.
They do, in fact, get to overwatch.
The Steel Behemoth rule says "It [the Baneblade] may fire its weapons if enemy models are within 1"." It does not specify a phase, or a time, or whatever - simply a blanket rule overriding the rule that says you cannot fire if enemy units are within 1".
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is a more detailed analysis complete with accurate wording:
Overwatch rule, BRBpg. 182 wrote: A unit can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are enemy models within 1" of it.
Steel Behemoth rule, Index Imperium 2 pg. various wrote: It [the model] can also still fire if enemy units are within 1" of it (but only it's twin heavy bolter or twin heavy flamer can target units that are within 1" of it - its other guns must target other units).
THis is only the case if firing and firing overwatch are the same thing.
gungo wrote: Just use steel legion or vosroyan depending on setup.
Reason being steel legion isn't all that but since you have almost no infantry and 3 superheavies all of your opponents anti infantry weapons are going into your SHVs. This actually makes the -1ap ability useful and likely to save your tanks from the mass anti infantry meta we are currently playing.
Vostoyan has 2 benefits 1) if you use a lot of multi melta or heavy bolters etc 30in range helps. 2) for 1cp per SHV you increase all thier shooting by 1 <-this is huge... even the warlord trait is decent if you try to charge with your warlord w reroll to hit and wound in combat.
Yes. I was thinking that. Though with Trojans the +1 to hit is less awesome (since I get re-rolls in the Shooting Phase). I have seriously considered Mordian because Baneblades can never be stopped from overwatching (except by psychic powers) and so get to overwatch every single unit that charges them. Keeping a Trojan within 3" (which I already do) makes that overwatch hit on a 5+, and I can blow the Defensive Gunners stratagem to make it hit on a 4+. So yay, free shooting phases, except possibly against multiple units.
Baneblades get to shoot if a unit is within 1". That does not mean they get to overwatch, unless the new codex changed something.
They do, in fact, get to overwatch.
The Steel Behemoth rule says "It [the Baneblade] may fire its weapons if enemy models are within 1"." It does not specify a phase, or a time, or whatever - simply a blanket rule overriding the rule that says you cannot fire if enemy units are within 1".
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is a more detailed analysis complete with accurate wording:
Overwatch rule, BRBpg. 182 wrote: A unit can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are enemy models within 1" of it.
Steel Behemoth rule, Index Imperium 2 pg. various wrote: It [the model] can also still fire if enemy units are within 1" of it (but only it's twin heavy bolter or twin heavy flamer can target units that are within 1" of it - its other guns must target other units).
THis is only the case if firing and firing overwatch are the same thing.
To me, the overwatch and baneblade rules you quoted are very clear in that they do not allow overwatch.
Are there Units within 1" of the model? If yes, no Overwatch unless you have a rule specifically allowing you to overwatch.
Anyway, I'm a big fan of the Transport baneblades, especially with Outflank.
The Stormlord and the Doomhammer both look pretty solid (Poor, poor Banehammer). Has there been any consideration for what the optimal filling is?
I'm thinking a 5 man squad of scions for objective secured and 2 Special weapons, but Plasma without overcharge looks pretty lackluster. Meltaguns could work with the Tallarn Outflank.
Do we have any way to deploy Psykers out of the tank after an Outflank? I haven't seen all the strategems yet.
Irdiumstern wrote: To me, the overwatch and baneblade rules you quoted are very clear in that they do not allow overwatch.
Are there Units within 1" of the model? If yes, no Overwatch unless you have a rule specifically allowing you to overwatch.
Anyway, I'm a big fan of the Transport baneblades, especially with Outflank.
The Stormlord and the Doomhammer both look pretty solid (Poor, poor Banehammer). Has there been any consideration for what the optimal filling is?
I'm thinking a 5 man squad of scions for objective secured and 2 Special weapons, but Plasma without overcharge looks pretty lackluster. Meltaguns could work with the Tallarn Outflank.
Do we have any way to deploy Psykers out of the tank after an Outflank? I haven't seen all the strategems yet.
How they are clear? To me they clearly allow you to overwatch even if you are within 1" of enemy models.
And there really isnt really way to disembark after outflank. Only ways are either coming as one of the three tallarn units, use valkyrie to arrive there or use the relic.
Tyr13 wrote: Hm... does anyone know if the deathmask of Ollanius relic specifies infantry as its carrier? On an officer or commissar, its nothing special, but a tank commander with 4++ and d3 wound regen... could be something, no?
A tank commander isn't an "officer" though in terms of keywords, so it wouldn't be able to take the relic.
The hellhound change makes so much sense. It's a straight buff, and now hellhounds are twice as good against 1 wound hordes (which they should be) but no worse against heavy things
There are a few things that I am finding to limit my list building for an ABG style Tallarn list. First, I really want to bring a brigade for the extra command points. That means that I can't bring Russes in a spearhead, preventing them from having obsec. Second, Baneblades don't get doctrines in a SH aux detachment, although I can't remember my source on that one so could be wrong. Not such a problem anyway, the Tallarn buff to SH is not painful to lose, I just don't see myself bringing enough HQ choices to field the Supreme Command detachment.
I'm thinking that with Tallarn I will focus on things like las/melta russes, bolter russes, mobile sentinels and melt/shotgun vets. Using the outflank stratagem to bring in 2x meltavets and an officer seems good, as they are fragile otherwise. It reminds me of my old Al'rahem days, although his troops hve become veterans in the meantime.
Is anyone going to put Scions in their normal detachments? It seems like sticking them in a Patrol detachment is far simpler. That is what I am thinking of doing, although I need to actually write some lists up.
A bit of background. Within my 2000pts I have a <Catachan> Brigade with the classic Harker, straken, Priest and Commisar supported infantry blobs (they have A3 S4 attacks in combat and only lose one dude for failed leadership, plus reroll 1s when shooting). Along with 2 x Manticores and 1 x Basilisk all making use of the reroll number of shots doctrine and Harkers reroll 1s to hit.
A <MT> Vanguard detachment (a Taurox Prime, Tempestor Prime plus plasma'd up MT command squad ready for Deepstrike while the the Taurox Prime waits on my "exposed flank" that allows enemy deepstrikers to land within 12" if they dare (Superior Intelligence strategem)
The bit I'm most looking forward to is my <Cadian> Spearhead Detachement within which there are
Commander Pask in a Punisher with 3 heavy bolters
2 x LRBT with Battle Cannons
1 x Hydra
1 x Company Commander as my warlord with Grand Strategist
1 x Ogryn Body Guard with brute shield
Using the Cadian Strategem "Overlapping Fields of Fire" combined with the LRBT grinding advance, one of the LRBT with battle tank only needs to cause 1 wound on a unit and Pask can end up with 49 autohit when he doesnt move. Similarly if there is a flyer on the board the Hydra only needs to cause it one wound on it to allow the three LRBT (Including Pask) to hit it with no negative modifiers.
I'm looking at running the 4 vehicles in a tight diamond shape with the Warlord in the centre with the Ogryn bodyguard. The Ogryn bodyguard (with his 4++) can absord a couple of Pasks wounds while the Warlord stays safe in his cage of metal.
This isn't even taking into account Pasks ability to give two orders (either <Cadians> tank order reroll no. of shots or reroll 1s to hit)
To be honest the Ogryn bodyguard is a bit of over kill but Pask is going to have a target painted on him with the new Grinding advance rules so anything to increase his sustainability is good (Enginseers instead possibly?).
Oh and the reason I made the company commander the Warlord is so I'm not restricted to Regimental warlord traits that named character have to take.
Do Orgyn bodyguards work on tanks? Would need to see the wording but seems weird if they do. Personally I would go the techpriest route as it seems fluffier. I'd probably have them ride a trojan or have an atlas nearby, although that depends on how FW goes about updating their stuff. After the joy that was the IA index release, I am not expecting great things.
Again, lots of points to beef things up, considering Plasma now since the rules got a LOT better even without the re-roll 1's
Question is are the Strategems in the book worthy of stretching to 13 CPs?
I would be tempted to put the Scions in a patrol detachment, so you get their doctrine bonuses. Make the Command Squad a basic troop, add some ratlings or something. Seems like a small change to get the buffs.
Yeah there's points to do that, question though is if I'm going to find enough to do with 13 points, when for a Battalion I could mech up my infantry squads and still squeeze 8 CPs out of 2K
Trickstick wrote: Do Orgyn bodyguards work on tanks? Would need to see the wording but seems weird if they do. Personally I would go the techpriest route as it seems fluffier. I'd probably have them ride a trojan or have an atlas nearby, although that depends on how FW goes about updating their stuff. After the joy that was the IA index release, I am not expecting great things.
RAW says "any astra miltarum Character" from the screenshots of the Ogryn Bodyguard page fromthe Codex. No mention disqualifying character vehicles. The Enginseer would be fluffier but seeing as the ogryn bodyguard allows Pask to turn what could be a D1-6 wounds into only D1 against the Ogryn SIX TIMES!! the enginseer can't compete (reparing on average 1.5 wounds per turn) I might throw one of my astropaths into the cage of steel so Pask starts with a 1+ armour save and allows the cage to ignore the cover saves of one unit.
This deathstar comes in at 732 Pts (including the astropath and company commander who technically are from my TM and catachan detachments respectively) I'd probably give the warlord the Kurov's Aquila as he's the safest man in the galaxy but haven't factored in its points cost. The detachment get all the Cadian tank rules, +1CP and the two LRBTs get defenders of humaity.
My main point though is that Pask would get 49 1+ hits using the Cadian Strategem "Overlapping Fields of Fire"!!! If anyone is in need of a bodyguard its the character that can do that.
More Dakka wrote: Yeah there's points to do that, question though is if I'm going to find enough to do with 13 points, when for a Battalion I could mech up my infantry squads and still squeeze 8 CPs out of 2K
There is a stratagem for +1 save, and another one for healing vehicles. You would need like 20-30 points to get in the realms of not being able to use them all. Seriously, the amount of Stratagems you can use means that you want as many CP as possible, there are never "enough".
combatcotton wrote: Does anyone have experience with a macarius vulcan in 8th? I wonder if I should buy one from a friend.
It depends on how much you want to invest in it. Superheavies aren't very good this edition (I routinely get my Baneblades alpha-struck off the board) though with the new Codex buffs I think they went too far the other way. Sadly the Macharius Vulcan lacks the codex buffs.
That said, if you're willing to put the energy and points into supporting it adequately, it can become a terror on the battlefield. It's firepower is phenomenal, both in overwatch and in the shooting phase.
Specific Super Heavies are amazing because they do what this edition is all about. Getting as many weapons on a single chassis and then buffing the hell out of that chassis.
However the problem is that: Most super competative armies have too many units and too many models that they just cant chew through them fast enough. Combined with everything having a chance to hurt everything they can be wittled down.
I think AM will be very powerful but infantry AM will run into the fact that people have been tooling for conscript and brim spam(so will be designed to take down a gak ton of models in one turn) as well as people also taking lots of things(mortal wounds) that ignore a lot of toughness and durability that IG is paying for.
Basically I think IG, as with most lists will do consistently the best if they take a hybrid approach, maybe one detachment dedicated towards infantry and another for heavy as an example. And just takes a lot of practice.
Although a lot depends on the wording of combined squads because that gak could get crazy REALLY quickly.
Leth wrote: Although a lot depends on the wording of combined squads because that gak could get crazy REALLY quickly.
I don't see combining being too powerful, although you are right that the actual wording could open up powerful combos. We know it only works on basic infantry squads and that it costs 1cp. Also, as it is a stratagem so you can't do it more than once in a single phase. Now, I am going to assume it has wording like "at the end of the movement phase" or "in the movement phase" or something, meaning you can only use it once per turn. I know that is a big assumption but a reasonable one I think. It really does seem to be best used to stop yourself losing kill points. I can see people doing it first turn to get a 20man squad for a nice buff. Are you going to do it 5+ times in a game though? Maybe if it is kill points but there are other things to spend points on that are really good, like +1 saves.
Leth wrote: Although a lot depends on the wording of combined squads because that gak could get crazy REALLY quickly.
I don't see combining being too powerful, although you are right that the actual wording could open up powerful combos. We know it only works on basic infantry squads and that it costs 1cp. Also, as it is a stratagem so you can't do it more than once in a single phase. Now, I am going to assume it has wording like "at the end of the movement phase" or "in the movement phase" or something, meaning you can only use it once per turn. I know that is a big assumption but a reasonable one I think. It really does seem to be best used to stop yourself losing kill points. I can see people doing it first turn to get a 20man squad for a nice buff. Are you going to do it 5+ times in a game though? Maybe if it is kill points but there are other things to spend points on that are really good, like +1 saves.
My current plan is to run infantry squads in pairs. One with heavy weapon and one without, then combine them once they wound the heavy weapon holding one. Plenty of times I'll have squads with just a lascannon or plasma gunner left. This would let them stick around yet another turn unless they devote additional firepower.
So, 9 maul/brute shield Bullgryns with a Primaris Psyker with his +1 save power comes in at 355 points (if the Bullgryn point drop to 35ppm with maul is correct), who can get a cool 3++ that can be buffed to 2++ during enemy shooting. With 37 S7 AP-1 attacks on the charge. That's one hell of a beatstick, and it's mono-IG.
Throw in Baneblades with their adamantium tracks with Crush Them!, and possibly Rough/DKoK Riders and IG can become a melee powerhouse. The future is now.
RogueApiary wrote: My current plan is to run infantry squads in pairs. One with heavy weapon and one without, then combine them once they wound the heavy weapon holding one. Plenty of times I'll have squads with just a lascannon or plasma gunner left. This would let them stick around yet another turn unless they devote additional firepower.
Seems kind of weird that you wouldn't take the extra weapons but I guess it could work.
After reading some more Tallarn (I'm really feeling the Armoured Tallarn army) I noticed that I had been thinking of their stratagem as like the old outflank that Al'rahem had. However, It doesn't actually say that it has to be the flank. I guess the real wording could be different, but the idea of bringing forces on the opponent's board edge seems fun. Seems like a perfect job for melta devildogs. The 9" restriction puts them within supermelta range and the Tallarn doctrine removes the -1 to hit. Not such a waste as using flamers, which don't benefit from the Tallarn Doctrine.
Honestly, I can't see ever using combined squads except in a rare situation when all but my special weapon gets knocked out of an infantry squad and they somehow don't die from leadership.
I've seen it happen before, but I'm not expecting it often. I guess it would also let you create mini-conscript squads, but if you're going to do that, why not just take conscripts?
I agree with you Trickstick. I even tried to run Tallarn doctrine on my superheavies last game I played, though the enemy got first turn and ended up pinning them in my DZ anyways.
The tallarn doctrine is pretty neat though, especially for not-superheavy armoured formations.
How about Pask, a squad of Demo leman russes, and a super heavy as all tallaran.
Can pask be a tallaran? Otherwise just a tank commander.
3 leman russes and a super heavy stay in reserves. (Since they would be target #1.)
Deep strike in. All leman russes fire twice, tank orders to re-roll the number of shots the demo tanks get. Shadowsword or something also takes out the heavy hitters. Then "Crush them". Advance and charge hitting on 2's.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I agree with you Trickstick. I even tried to run Tallarn doctrine on my superheavies last game I played, though the enemy got first turn and ended up pinning them in my DZ anyways.
The tallarn doctrine is pretty neat though, especially for not-superheavy armoured formations.
I thought Super-Heavies, specifically don't receive Doctrine benefits?
Leth wrote: Although a lot depends on the wording of combined squads because that gak could get crazy REALLY quickly.
I don't see combining being too powerful, although you are right that the actual wording could open up powerful combos. We know it only works on basic infantry squads and that it costs 1cp. Also, as it is a stratagem so you can't do it more than once in a single phase. Now, I am going to assume it has wording like "at the end of the movement phase" or "in the movement phase" or something, meaning you can only use it once per turn. I know that is a big assumption but a reasonable one I think. It really does seem to be best used to stop yourself losing kill points. I can see people doing it first turn to get a 20man squad for a nice buff. Are you going to do it 5+ times in a game though? Maybe if it is kill points but there are other things to spend points on that are really good, like +1 saves.
Between the ease of getting a battalion (or brigade? The big one) and other detachments and the ability to make points back on a 5 and get points from the enemy on a five, having an effective 15 or more CPs is easy.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I agree with you Trickstick. I even tried to run Tallarn doctrine on my superheavies last game I played, though the enemy got first turn and ended up pinning them in my DZ anyways.
The tallarn doctrine is pretty neat though, especially for not-superheavy armoured formations.
I thought Super-Heavies, specifically don't receive Doctrine benefits?
I've seen a ton of different versions of that rumor floating around, and would like to see it cited.
It is worth noting that the Tallarn doctrine specifically gives Titanic units a different bonus than it gives other units - meaning that somewhere in the codex, there exists a Titanic unit that's not a superheavy, or doctrines apply to superheavies.
rhinoceraids wrote: How about Pask, a squad of Demo leman russes, and a super heavy as all tallaran.
Can pask be a tallaran? Otherwise just a tank commander.
3 leman russes and a super heavy stay in reserves. (Since they would be target #1.)
Deep strike in. All leman russes fire twice, tank orders to re-roll the number of shots the demo tanks get. Shadowsword or something also takes out the heavy hitters. Then "Crush them". Advance and charge hitting on 2's.
Holy heck does this look amazing.
Pask is specifically locked into the Cadian regiment keyword. Similar for other named characters.
rhinoceraids wrote: How about Pask, a squad of Demo leman russes, and a super heavy as all tallaran.
Can pask be a tallaran? Otherwise just a tank commander.
3 leman russes and a super heavy stay in reserves. (Since they would be target #1.)
Deep strike in. All leman russes fire twice, tank orders to re-roll the number of shots the demo tanks get. Shadowsword or something also takes out the heavy hitters. Then "Crush them". Advance and charge hitting on 2's.
Holy heck does this look amazing.
Pask can't be Tallarn, he is Cadian. Also, whilst you can take a squadron of Russes, in the current rules they split into separate units when deployed. As you can only use the same stratagem once per turn, only one of them could use Crush Them. You can't use the Cadian order on Tallarns either.
A powerful idea but not quite to the levels you are thinking. Still fun though.
stratigo wrote: Between the ease of getting a battalion (or brigade? The big one) and other detachments and the ability to make points back on a 5 and get points from the enemy on a five, having an effective 15 or more CPs is easy.
Am I the only one that thinks Guard will blow through 15cp in no time? I'm probably going to be using 3 before the game even starts to outflank, as well as use the +1 save pretty much every turn. Then you have tank heals, extra relics, inspired tactics, vengeance for Cadia and the generic rerolls. You could spend all your points in two turns easily if you are not careful.
rhinoceraids wrote: How about Pask, a squad of Demo leman russes, and a super heavy as all tallaran.
Can pask be a tallaran? Otherwise just a tank commander.
3 leman russes and a super heavy stay in reserves. (Since they would be target #1.)
Deep strike in. All leman russes fire twice, tank orders to re-roll the number of shots the demo tanks get. Shadowsword or something also takes out the heavy hitters. Then "Crush them". Advance and charge hitting on 2's.
Holy heck does this look amazing.
Pask can't be Tallarn, he is Cadian. Also, whilst you can take a squadron of Russes, in the current rules they split into separate units when deployed. As you can only use the same stratagem once per turn, only one of them could use Crush Them. You can't use the Cadian order on Tallarns either.
A powerful idea but not quite to the levels you are thinking. Still fun though.
stratigo wrote: Between the ease of getting a battalion (or brigade? The big one) and other detachments and the ability to make points back on a 5 and get points from the enemy on a five, having an effective 15 or more CPs is easy.
Am I the only one that thinks Guard will blow through 15cp in no time? I'm probably going to be using 3 before the game even starts to outflank, as well as use the +1 save pretty much every turn. Then you have tank heals, extra relics, inspired tactics, vengeance for Cadia and the generic rerolls. You could spend all your points in two turns easily if you are not careful.
Yeah, but Tallaran Tank commander, squad of demo russes, and a tallaran super heavy. All deep striking. Super heavy gets to charge in. And the tank orders can be used to retreat them 6" back or forward or whatever.
That seems to work yeah?
Just as a way to protect your heavy hitters and get a chance to take theirs out asap.
I thought we caught enough of the text to see it was pretty obviously 1:1, but I might be misremembering.
I suppose they could have a separate, as yet unrevealed rule stating that you could combine squads at game start for free and then also commit CP to combine them after the fact as well, similar to how GK can combat squad and then they can also use that strategem to split at game time.
I'm guessing they won't do that though, otherwise you could have a 100 man strong squad at turn one.
Is a list format I'm thinking about running. Cadian gunline conscripts and heavy weapons/tanks, Tallarn infantry w/ Scions, and Catachan artillery.
Exactly my thoughts.
But why Tallarn scions? Cool counts as Tanith elite troopers?
I don't know really. I don't have any strong feelings towards the Tempestus regimental stuff and while re-rolling failed wounds against vehicles and extra shots on 6+s is nice they typically don't really need it. I think I need to play around with them more first, but I figure having Tallarn veterans outflanking from the board edge and having a squad or two of Scions would do fine.
Take Cover!: 1 CP, grants one of your units +1 to their saving throws. The unit is chosen in your opponent’s shooting phase after they have nominated that unit as a target.
So it seems fairly clear that tanks got a much needed buff and that Guard has tons and tons of strategic options to choose from.
I'm curious about people's thoughts on Conscripts. I used them a lot at my local club and they did make my list really competitive, especially with FRFSRF. Now that blobs can only be 30 strong max, and orders don't go off automatically, do people think that they're not as viable as before? Maybe armor and artillery are better things to focus on?
deltaKshatriya wrote: So it seems fairly clear that tanks got a much needed buff and that Guard has tons and tons of strategic options to choose from.
I'm curious about people's thoughts on Conscripts. I used them a lot at my local club and they did make my list really competitive, especially with FRFSRF. Now that blobs can only be 30 strong max, and orders don't go off automatically, do people think that they're not as viable as before? Maybe armor and artillery are better things to focus on?
You are still going to want something that stops the enemy from locking your vehicles in CC, and also something that can move forward to compete for objectives. Conscripts seem likely to remain the best choice for that role across all Imperium armies, but it's not like Infantry are bad at this. Bullgryn also might work now.
yea I figured that basically meat shields is where they're going to be most useful. The nice thing is that the new rules have plenty of play styles now whereas before things were a little less varied.
CaptainO wrote: I might throw one of my astropaths into the cage of steel so Pask starts with a 1+ armour save and allows the cage to ignore the cover saves of one unit.
Is the Leman Russ buffed to 2+ save? Or does Pask increase the the save?
Comparing the regimental tactics and orders of the cadians and the catachans.
Is Pask the only reason to choose Cadians for a Leman Russ detachement?
Firefox1 wrote: Comparing the regimental tactics and orders of the cadians and the catachans.
Is Pask the only reason to choose Cadians for a Leman Russ detachement?
Well they get to reroll 1s to hit if they don't move. The pound them to dust order mimics the catachan's doctrine for turret weapons, at least slightly. You also have their unique relic (reroll 1s to hit/wound or all hits/wounds vs chaos) and their stratagem (+1 to hit unit already shot at). Basically, if you don't want to stack d6 shot guns, and want to stay still, Cadians are probably better.
One thing that's kind of funny is that cadian doctrine plus PTTD has the same end result as a Catachan giving an Aim order: re-roll a die for number of shots and re-roll 1s to hit.
So it depends on two things: which bonus do you want to be passive vs an order, and what do you want the rest of your army to do?
Though I guess Cadia does also have Pask, and the option to stack an Aim order with their doctrine for full re-rolls, so Cadia is a bit more flexible in the LRBT section.
ross-128 wrote: One thing that's kind of funny is that cadian doctrine plus PTTD has the same end result as a Catachan giving an Aim order: re-roll a die for number of shots and re-roll 1s to hit.
So it depends on two things: which bonus do you want to be passive vs an order, and what do you want the rest of your army to do?
Though I guess Cadia does also have Pask, and the option to stack an Aim order with their doctrine for full re-rolls, so Cadia is a bit more flexible in the LRBT section.
Well they are a bit different. Firstly, the Cadians have a tank order whilst take aim is an infantry order. Also, the Cadians need to stay still. I think that is what the choice will come down to in the end. You want a gunline? Play Cadian. You want to move up with flamers? Catachan.
The idea of Tallarn devil dogs is really starting to appeal to me, especially outflanking. Almost guaranteed to get within 12" of something juicy unless the enemy has perfect bubble wrap. Then you get 2-4 melta shots at bs4. Of course, they cost 128 points in the index, so are a bit pricey. It could be much more efficient to just use a demolisher with meltaguns or something.
The one thing that intrigues me is the dozer blade. Only 5 pts, so it isn't going to be anything major but could be decent. There are no difficult terrain checks anymore, so they are not going to do what they used to do. Perhaps some sort of close combat buff? +1 attack, or +1 to hit on the charge? Any guesses?
No idea what Dozer Blade does but Track Guards prevents vehicles movement from degrading due damage.
And Reece @ Fronglinegaming thinks that allowing Titanic vehicles to use Tallarn stratagem is an oversight. Might be or might not. Still the best use seems to be Tank Commanders due their unique order. The order allows tank to move 6" before OR after shooting. This allows the russ to move into flamer range, grab objectives or just hide from retaliation. Very powerful!
Take Cover!: 1 CP, grants one of your units +1 to their saving throws. The unit is chosen in your opponent’s shooting phase after they have nominated that unit as a target.
I'm not 100% but I think this Stratagem is only available in alternate scenarios like Stronghold Assault. Its not one of the 3 Universal Stratagems and it doesn't appear to be mentioned in any of the AM Codex leaks.
Blightstar wrote: No idea what Dozer Blade does but Track Guards prevents vehicles movement from degrading due damage.
And Reece @ Fronglinegaming thinks that allowing Titanic vehicles to use Tallarn stratagem is an oversight. Might be or might not. Still the best use seems to be Tank Commanders due their unique order. The order allows tank to move 6" before OR after shooting. This allows the russ to move into flamer range, grab objectives or just hide from retaliation. Very powerful!
An oversight? It's specifically written into the stratagem. It's not like they forgot to exclude them: they went to the effort to specifically include them. I think Titanic units will benefit from regimental doctrines.
CaptainO wrote: I might throw one of my astropaths into the cage of steel so Pask starts with a 1+ armour save and allows the cage to ignore the cover saves of one unit.
Is the Leman Russ buffed to 2+ save? Or does Pask increase the the save?
Comparing the regimental tactics and orders of the cadians and the catachans.
Is Pask the only reason to choose Cadians for a Leman Russ detachement?
My MT Vanguard detachment is made up of a Taurox Prime, Tempestor Prime plus plasma'd up MT command squad and then 2 astropaths to pad out the elite slots. The detachment is at least 50% TM (its unclear how they're going to measure this but either way 2 units are TM (plus a transport) while 2 or not. Thats 50% in my book and will allow the the Taurox Prime to make use of the Superior Intelligence Strategem.
The astropaths will be able to buff one LRBT to a 2+ save each. This buff can only be used on your own turn so to avoid Pask being shot on the first turn you could use the Take Cover Stratagem (although I think this stratagem may only be used in alternate scenarios like Stronghold Assault)
Either way Pask would be buffed to 2+ with the astropath Physic Barrier.
Previously Pask was taken for his 2+ to hit and his ability to give two orders. However the main reason I'd take a Cadian LRBT detachment now is to use the Cadia specific Stratagem - Overlapping Fields of Fire which allows all units to add +1 to their to hit rolls on a unit already wounded by a Cadian Unit. This means that Pask (in a punisher with 3 Heavy Bolters) would get 49 S5 auto hits!!!! (9 of which have a -1AP) That Mathhammers to Pask being able to take 10 Wounds off a MEQ unit! On his own!!! For Overlapping Fields of fire to work said unit would already have had to lose one wound meaning that thats a full unit of 10 MEQ gone with spare change!
I also intend to throw in a Hydra to be the 3rrd Heavy slot in that detachment. If there is a flyer around its hitting on a 3+, after which Overlapping Fields of Fire can be used (for one measly CP) and all the other units in the Detachment (including pask) will be able to hit said flyer without a negative modifier (+1 for Overlapping Fields of Fire, -1 for shooting at a flyer)
Finally I'm trying to work out the mathhammer for the Cadian Specific Order Pound them to Dust but initially it looks like its better than the re-roll 1s order.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On further reading it appears Cadias doctrine of Born Soldiers already allows a re-roll of 1s if the unit (in this case a LRBT with Battle cannon so 72" range) remains stationary. I thought this was limited to Infantry.
Yep, don't use a +1 to hit buff on a 2+ model unless you're specifically trying to counter a -1 debuff.
Re-rolling 1s, on the other hand, is incredibly strong on a 2+ unit. Because only 1s can miss for them it's effectively re-roll all hits for them, except easier and cheaper to acquire. A 2+ re-rolling 1s will hit 35/36, practically an auto-hit for most models (a Punisher can expect to miss just 1 shot).
This also means putting +1s on a 3+ unit is very valuable, because of how common re-rolling 1s is now a 2+ is a very nice thing to have. You go from 28/36 (3+ re-rolling 1s) to 35/36, and if you have any full re-rolls available you can save them for lower-BS models that actually need them.
Of course due to re-rolling 1s linear relationship to expected successes (it increases expected successes by 1/6 regardless of how you get to that number, IIRC), high BS and high volume of fire are equally valid approaches to maximizing it. But if you're concerned with making sure one particular shot/volley hits (ie your volume of fire is fixed), obviously higher BS is better all other things being equal.
CaptainO wrote: This means that Pask (in a punisher with 3 Heavy Bolters) would get 49 S5 auto hits!!!!
A roll of 1 always fails.
Maybe I missed the faq but the RAW says that all subsequent units add one to hit. Does this not mean all 1s = 2s and therefore hit? I could be wrong but if it has been faq'd can you send a link?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Scratch that just found it after a quick check
Automatically Appended Next Post: If Pask doesn't move he'll still kill 10 MEQs in a turn.
Arguably its better to focus the other two LRBT and Hydra on a different unit and use the Overlapping field of fire on that. I was trying to think of a unit that would have models left over to be shot at after Pask kills 10 MEQ
Automatically Appended Next Post: If Pask (with Punisher and 3 Heavy bolters) doesnt move he actually can take out 11.55 MEQ in once shooting phase.
Cadia seems like the best all around option. Some good tools. Vs a knight or something the +1 stratagem would work nicely with a shadowsword. Which didn't move. and rerolls 1's to hit. And if its titanic re-roll all wounds....
Plus everything is already green. Using super heavys with tallaran seem a tad gamey, and as others have said might be an oversight. Will wait for the FAQ
I would say that Catachan is more powerful, as it can be used on the move. If you concentrate in d6 shot weaponry, it becomes very powerful. There is just something about a rule that gives you an advantage to staying still that does not appeal to me, as objective play is so important.
Not in the codex but you are free to use the index as the most recent datasheet for models they no longer make.
OR
you can use DKOK death riders which are even better.
Its not that big a deal the index is still 8th edition and what most armies are using and very little in the codex helps rough riders since they are neither infantry or vehicles.
I'm very torn which doctrines I will use, but Tallarn is looking pretty amazing and very dynamic as others have mentioned. Outflanking Russes/Hellhounds with rough rider support is just very appealing especially combined with their tank order and the relic dagger for more outflanking.
So, if I were to do a "Deep Striking" Tallarn Super-heavy (by putting it in a Supreme Command now that that is confirmed), there's no way to get it into Flamer range, is there?
I know Tallarn's have the special tank-order to move/shoot, but Tank Orders only work on Keyword Leman Russ, right?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: So, if I were to do a "Deep Striking" Tallarn Super-heavy (by putting it in a Supreme Command now that that is confirmed), there's no way to get it into Flamer range, is there?
I know Tallarn's have the special tank-order to move/shoot, but Tank Orders only work on Keyword Leman Russ, right?
Sure, move it into range next turn after shooting everything else the previous turn.
Tank orders only work on leman russes. I was really hoping they'd include the hellhounds and their variants in that, but the codex review video shows the text still referring specifically to leman russes. I get they don't want titanic units benefiting from orders, but I'll never understand why they don't just specify non-titanic vehicles. *sigh*
Ambushing a superheavy seems great, but there's little preventing the opponent from just moving their army backwards to swarm and kill it without its infantry screen (which definitely doesn't fit within the leftover ambush zone in front of the tank.)
Well, the Super-Heavies at least discourage charging to a degree by refusing to get fully bogged down, now shooting into their own combats, etc...
I was just trying to figure out the value of Sponsons on super-heavies in real-world terms. They're very pricey, on units you either need to decide are going up close, or are staying far away.
Edit: BTW... no one is mentioning it outright, but is it safe to assume to Primeris Psyker can be whatever Regiment we want, so as to not break bonuses?
I'm semi-seriously thinking of running a Leman Russ company at 2k. Tank commander and 3 squadrons of 3.
It's cool how unclear it is which regiment would be best. That said, I think I'm coming down on the side of Tallarns. I think that their mobility will be key. Cadians give you more raw firepower but they encourage you to sit still and cluster around the command tanks.
A slight problem is that I'll have a terrible number of CPs - probably just 4. And I might often want to use the ambush stratagem, using up 3 of them in one go.
In terms of configuration I think I'll probably run two squadrons of standard battlecannon, lascannon and heavy bolter russes. The third squadron will have at least a couple with heavy flamers, which I'll be able to order to zoom around burning people.
I'm not sure what to put in the turrets, other than battlecannons. A couple of punishers and/or demolishers might be good. The battlecannon seems like the best all-round gun though.
This leaves me a bit under 100 points left. I think a primaris psyker makes sense, to try and keep my tank commander alive by making him hard to hit. I might be able to squeeze in the points for a taurox for him to ride in. Alternatives include a tech priest or some scout sentinels to screen.
It would be quite cool to just run the 10 tanks but I'd like to have some chance of achieving the relic mission, so some kind of infantry is a requirement.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Well, the Super-Heavies at least discourage charging to a degree by refusing to get fully bogged down, now shooting into their own combats, etc...
I was just trying to figure out the value of Sponsons on super-heavies in real-world terms. They're very pricey, on units you either need to decide are going up close, or are staying far away.
Edit: BTW... no one is mentioning it outright, but is it safe to assume to Primeris Psyker can be whatever Regiment we want, so as to not break bonuses?
Most of the auxiliary stuff (techpriests, ogryns, psykers etc) don't get the regimental bonuses but can still be in a detachment and not prevent them either.
As for sponsons, I am torn. I love how my 4 sponson tank looks, so will probably keep it. I can imagine a Catachan Hellhammer with full flamer sponsons doing a lot of damage with the rerolls, or a Tallarn being able to move very fast. With the 2+ hit stratagem, I imagine you want your SH in combat against things that can't hurt it. Imagine charging it into some conscripts, you are basically using the enemy to prevent your tank being shot at, whilst you can shoot fine. Then you can fall back and simply use the stratagem again.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Well, the Super-Heavies at least discourage charging to a degree by refusing to get fully bogged down, now shooting into their own combats, etc...
I was just trying to figure out the value of Sponsons on super-heavies in real-world terms. They're very pricey, on units you either need to decide are going up close, or are staying far away.
Edit: BTW... no one is mentioning it outright, but is it safe to assume to Primeris Psyker can be whatever Regiment we want, so as to not break bonuses?
Most of the auxiliary stuff (techpriests, ogryns, psykers etc) don't get the regimental bonuses but can still be in a detachment and not prevent them either.
As for sponsons, I am torn. I love how my 4 sponson tank looks, so will probably keep it. I can imagine a Catachan Hellhammer with full flamer sponsons doing a lot of damage with the rerolls, or a Tallarn being able to move very fast. With the 2+ hit stratagem, I imagine you want your SH in combat against things that can't hurt it. Imagine charging it into some conscripts, you are basically using the enemy to prevent your tank being shot at, whilst you can shoot fine. Then you can fall back and simply use the stratagem again.
Agreed... but boy are the 4x Sponsons an expensive add-on, essentially coming at the cost of an extra Leman Russ all by themselves. That said... I am thinking a mixed Militarum list is looking optimal, with the Tallarn part not only ambushing, but in doing so, cutting down your number of deployment drops dramatically.
CaptainO wrote: This means that Pask (in a punisher with 3 Heavy Bolters) would get 49 S5 auto hits!!!!
A roll of 1 always fails.
Maybe I missed the faq but the RAW says that all subsequent units add one to hit. Does this not mean all 1s = 2s and therefore hit? I could be wrong but if it has been faq'd can you send a link?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Scratch that just found it after a quick check
Automatically Appended Next Post: If Pask doesn't move he'll still kill 10 MEQs in a turn.
Arguably its better to focus the other two LRBT and Hydra on a different unit and use the Overlapping field of fire on that. I was trying to think of a unit that would have models left over to be shot at after Pask kills 10 MEQ
Automatically Appended Next Post: If Pask (with Punisher and 3 Heavy bolters) doesnt move he actually can take out 11.55 MEQ in once shooting phase.
Well, if it's Pask and two command tank buddies, what you can do with the cadian stratagem is shoot with Pask first.
He's sure to do at least one wound, so now both of his command tank buddies can hit on 2+ as well. It's like having three Pasks!
If there's anything left of the target, anyway. Anything you'd want to focus three Pasks on is probably a superheavy of some sort.
"If your army is battle-foged, all <Regiment> units in an AM detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy auxiliary detachments) gain a regimental doctrine ...."
"If your army is battle-foged, all <Regiment> units in an AM detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy auxiliary detachments) gain a regimental doctrine ...."
So, that confirms (just as Reece does in Frontlines Pt2 Codex review), that super-heavies DO get it in Supreme Command, or the 3x Super-Heavy detachments.
"If your army is battle-foged, all <Regiment> units in an AM detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy auxiliary detachments) gain a regimental doctrine ...."
So, that confirms (just as Reece does in Frontlines Pt2 Codex review), that super-heavies DO get it in Supreme Command, or the 3x Super-Heavy detachments.
That would be the `oversight` portion where GW forgot to keep the <regiment> out of the other ways to get super-heavies on the board.
"If your army is battle-foged, all <Regiment> units in an AM detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy auxiliary detachments) gain a regimental doctrine ...."
So, that confirms (just as Reece does in Frontlines Pt2 Codex review), that super-heavies DO get it in Supreme Command, or the 3x Super-Heavy detachments.
That would be the `oversight` portion where GW forgot to keep the <regiment> out of the other ways to get super-heavies on the board.
I don't think so... as I can imagine the larger detachments almost being considered a "tax" preventing you from just arbitrarily adding one, buffed, super-heavy to essentially any Imperium army and reaching Regiment benefits. I suspect its intentional.
Blightstar wrote: No idea what Dozer Blade does but Track Guards prevents vehicles movement from degrading due damage.
And Reece @ Fronglinegaming thinks that allowing Titanic vehicles to use Tallarn stratagem is an oversight. Might be or might not. Still the best use seems to be Tank Commanders due their unique order. The order allows tank to move 6" before OR after shooting. This allows the russ to move into flamer range, grab objectives or just hide from retaliation. Very powerful!
An oversight? It's specifically written into the stratagem. It's not like they forgot to exclude them: they went to the effort to specifically include them. I think Titanic units will benefit from regimental doctrines.
If they don't, I'd be surprised.
Ah yes of course Titanic units will get regimental rules (if they are in non-aux detachments). The "oversight" part Reece mentioned was the "outflank" reserve-stratagem Tallarn has. Going over my Baneblade (old forgeworld pattern mind you), he is actually too big to use the stratagem!
Aux detachments have been excluded from every Chapter/Legion/Forge World etc rules already. No surprise that aux detachments don't get regimental bonuses either.
Actually, I think the superheavies are too big for the tallarn ambush stratagem. Reason being is the chasis is a little over 7" at its width with sponsors on and you need to wholly within 7".
It doesn't say wholly. As long as part of every model of a unit is within 7in the entire unit is within 7in. If one side rear track of a baneblade is within 7in the entire model is within 7in.
Tallarn Stratagem: Ambush: 3 CP, place 3 Tallarn units in reserves, these enter the battlefield within 7″ of any board edge, more than 9″ away from enemy units
Calvhalla wrote: Actually, I think the superheavies are too big for the tallarn ambush stratagem. Reason being is the chasis is a little over 7" at its width with sponsors on and you need to wholly within 7".
So you an outflank if you want to give up sponsons. A very viable option for some of the transport variants, as the power comes more from the contents. An outflanking banehammer/doomhammer is pretty cheap.
Tallarn Stratagem: Ambush: 3 CP, place 3 Tallarn units in reserves, these enter the battlefield within 7″ of any board edge, more than 9″ away from enemy units
Do we have the actual rule text? I have only seen that editorialised summary. We do have The Dagger of Tu’Sakh text, which is similar. That does indeed have the word wholly.
Yeah I think they just didn't write the rule 100% accurately in their summary, and it does in fact have the "wholly" word. If it does not, you have the possibility of chaining things like conscripts half way across the board.
CaptainO wrote: This means that Pask (in a punisher with 3 Heavy Bolters) would get 49 S5 auto hits!!!!
A roll of 1 always fails.
Maybe I missed the faq but the RAW says that all subsequent units add one to hit. Does this not mean all 1s = 2s and therefore hit? I could be wrong but if it has been faq'd can you send a link?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Scratch that just found it after a quick check
Automatically Appended Next Post: If Pask doesn't move he'll still kill 10 MEQs in a turn.
Arguably its better to focus the other two LRBT and Hydra on a different unit and use the Overlapping field of fire on that. I was trying to think of a unit that would have models left over to be shot at after Pask kills 10 MEQ
Automatically Appended Next Post: If Pask (with Punisher and 3 Heavy bolters) doesnt move he actually can take out 11.55 MEQ in once shooting phase.
Well, if it's Pask and two command tank buddies, what you can do with the cadian stratagem is shoot with Pask first.
He's sure to do at least one wound, so now both of his command tank buddies can hit on 2+ as well. It's like having three Pasks!
If there's anything left of the target, anyway. Anything you'd want to focus three Pasks on is probably a superheavy of some sort.
Get this, there isn't really a need to upgrade your supporting tanks to command tanks even if fighting a superheavy!?!?
All you need is Pask in a punisher with 3 Heavy Bolters and ONE bog standard LRBT with Battle cannon and hull mounted Heavy Bolter.
If you remain still with Pask and shoot with him first (40 x s5 shots ap0, 9 x s5 shots ap-1, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s)
then follow up with your bog standard LRBT with Battle cannon and hull mounted Heavy Bolter (d6 x s8 shots (reroll number of shots) ap-2, 3 x s5 shots ap-1, hitting on 3s (+1 thanks to fields of fire), re-rolling 1s to hit)
you'll take 27.287 wounds off a 26W t8 3+ armour save baneblade equivalent!!!
Granted the punishers 24" range isn't great and will make standing still (and therefore get the reroll 1s ) difficult but even if Pask has to move up to 5" (half his range) this combo will take off 24.5 baneblade wounds
The cost of this 1 round baneblade killer combo...367 points!!!
gungo wrote: It doesn't say wholly. As long as part of every model of a unit is within 7in the entire unit is within 7in. If one side rear track of a baneblade is within 7in the entire model is within 7in.
Tallarn Stratagem: Ambush: 3 CP, place 3 Tallarn units in reserves, these enter the battlefield within 7″ of any board edge, more than 9″ away from enemy units
That doesn't seem right. That would mean you could exceed 7in by putting the ass end within 7 and the rest further forward, which can't be right, say nothing about chaining a 30 man unit of conscripts from one end of the board to the other as long as one is within 7".
Like many I'm also interested in trying out the Russes with the new dex, and wondering what'll be optimal.
If the Punisher variant is the math winner, it's still limited by the 24" range. It's hard to get the Grinding Advance double shots due to range limitations, and extremely hard to take advantage of the Cadian re-rolls for not moving at all with a short range gun like that.
I like the idea of outflanking three Tallarn Punishers. They'll get to range, they can get normal tank commanders, they get to alpha strike, and they most likely double shot. Their sponsons don't take any modifiers from moving either, so that's some bonus damage right there.
I'm eagerly waiting for Saturday to get to see the whole picture, and the points costs.
I'm just wondering why punishers are suddenly the new hotness now the turret shots are doubled? Don't get me wrong, 40 shots is very nice, but I didn't see anyone running them before, and all the russes got exactly the same buff...
I'm not quite sure either. The Vulture was doing this before and with quite solid stats. Honestly, I'm opposed to the punisher because I already roll enough dice, no need to roll 40 for a tank. I'll probably stick with the iconic battle Cannon
DoomMouse wrote: I'm just wondering why punishers are suddenly the new hotness now the turret shots are doubled? Don't get me wrong, 40 shots is very nice, but I didn't see anyone running them before, and all the russes got exactly the same buff...
Overall volume of fire is seen as generally being more useful nowadays than quality of fire. It's the secondary effect to AP getting walked back this edition, hurting almost anything on a 5+, and now getting full BS with the turret even when the LR is moving. If you can improve BS further or grant a reroll, the effect of the benefit is going to be that much more profound on a 40 shot weapon that it would be on, say, a two shot weapon.
I also plan to combine squads so straken has 1-2 big blobs with him, yarrick, the psyker, and a priest, a couple back guarding the earthshakers, and the rest doing whatever.
I'm trying to figure out what would be best to fill it out the rest of the way. Power mauls on the commanders and as many sarges as possible for str 6 seemed decent, but I was wondering if there was anything people might recommend. I'm also not sure if this is enough guardsmen overall, I was considering some rough riders instead of sentinels, just for a few more bodies on the table.
SilverAlien wrote: So, I was hoping for some help with a silly list. It's all melee guard all the time, basically trying to be a better melee horde than orks.
I also plan to combine squads so straken has 1-2 big blobs with him, yarrick, the psyker, and a priest, a couple back guarding the earthshakers, and the rest doing whatever.
I'm trying to figure out what would be best to fill it out the rest of the way. Power mauls on the commanders and as many sarges as possible for str 6 seemed decent, but I was wondering if there was anything people might recommend. I'm also not sure if this is enough guardsmen overall, I was considering some rough riders instead of sentinels, just for a few more bodies on the table.
You need more commissars. And normally with S3 P.Mauls are the best due taking you into S5 but as you are already S4, taking axes is best way to go. Only instance where mauls are better than axes are against T3 6+ troops.
SilverAlien wrote: I also plan to combine squads so straken has 1-2 big blobs with him...
I am going to predict that the combined squad stratagem will have some sort of "if a unit ends its movement phase within 2" of another..." wording. That would make it work the way I think they want it to, as a way to "consolidate squads" that have been wounded as a counter to kill points. That is the name of the stratagem after all. It would limit you to 1 consolidate a turn, killing huge squads as a viable tactic. A melee Guard list can still work very well though.
Can you imagine if you didn't have to have unit cohesion to do it though? That would get crazy silly. This wall of infantry here? It can't ever move again, but I can now remove casualties from it from this squad (points at other side of the table) waaaay over here!
daedalus wrote: Can you imagine if you didn't have to have unit cohesion to do it though? That would get crazy silly. This wall of infantry here? It can't ever move again, but I can now remove casualties from it from this squad (points at other side of the table) waaaay over here!
You know, that sounds like something that could easily be in the rules.
Blightstar wrote: You need more commissars. And normally with S3 P.Mauls are the best due taking you into S5 but as you are already S4, taking axes is best way to go. Only instance where mauls are better than axes are against T3 6+ troops.
Actually, the power maul is better vs toughness three sv 5+, three hits results in an average 2.08 wounds with maul vs 2 with axe, it's better vs toughness three with a 6+, 7+, or any toughness three that relies on an invulnerable or fnp save, and is the exact same vs toughness four sv 6+ but costs a point less. So honestly the maul is better against every single enemy infantry unit I would expect to see in large numbers.
As for why I'm not using commissars, it's fluffy, Yarrick can babysit the 1-2 big squads I make, and catachan's get LD 8 near an officer already, which should be good enough for squads of 10.
DoomMouse wrote: I'm just wondering why punishers are suddenly the new hotness now the turret shots are doubled? Don't get me wrong, 40 shots is very nice, but I didn't see anyone running them before, and all the russes got exactly the same buff...
Overall volume of fire is seen as generally being more useful nowadays than quality of fire. It's the secondary effect to AP getting walked back this edition, hurting almost anything on a 5+, and now getting full BS with the turret even when the LR is moving. If you can improve BS further or grant a reroll, the effect of the benefit is going to be that much more profound on a 40 shot weapon that it would be on, say, a two shot weapon.
Volume fire is very strong, I agree.
I don;t agree on the other point though - it's exactly the same buff to both weapons (assuming both weapons are equal in terms of damaging whatever you're shooting at). The battle cannon is still generally better at shooting toughness 6+ models, and generally worse at lower than this. Giving them the exact same accuracy buffs doesn't change anything. I'm just a bit surprised that everyone only seems to be seeing the punisher as the go-to choice now!
I don't like the Punisher, I much prefer the LRBT as a go-to tank. 40 shots is indeed nice, but having 24" range, no AP value and only 1 damage per shot really makes it ineffective vs anything other than light infantry compared to a well rolled battle cannon shot. Since light infantry is already dealt with more efficiently by ever present mortars, lasguns and heavy bolters, I see no reason to use a Punisher. If I want Punisher Cannons I take them on a deepstriking Elysian Vulture.
Edit: And most importantly it's UNNATURAL to have a gatling gun on a LR Tank!
Blightstar wrote: You need more commissars. And normally with S3 P.Mauls are the best due taking you into S5 but as you are already S4, taking axes is best way to go. Only instance where mauls are better than axes are against T3 6+ troops.
Actually, the power maul is better vs toughness three sv 5+, three hits results in an average 2.08 wounds with maul vs 2 with axe, it's better vs toughness three with a 6+, 7+, or any toughness three that relies on an invulnerable or fnp save, and is the exact same vs toughness four sv 6+ but costs a point less. So honestly the maul is better against every single enemy infantry unit I would expect to see in large numbers.
As for why I'm not using commissars, it's fluffy, Yarrick can babysit the 1-2 big squads I make, and catachan's get LD 8 near an officer already, which should be good enough for squads of 10.
You're right about that althought the difference between 2 and 2,08 casulties is pretty non-existent in the end. But my line of thought with axes was that your list doesnt really need more help killing that chaff, does it? Giving out axes (or even swords) would give you more teeth against marines and other toughish~ targets.
But you might be right about the commissars. I completely forgot about that +1LD thing. The difference really isnt that great. But with commissars you (or your opponent) woudlnt have to rely on luck for survival. You would always know the result: if there is still 2 guys standing, the squad isnt going to die to morale. Personally I love mitigating all the possible roll based chances as always as I can. Makes for a bit more sturdier strategies. Also helps a bit with Combined Squads.
edit: TL;DR: just give your guys ANY power weapons because that 4/5pts is going to give results and use commissars or not, I would prefer it but they arent really lynchpins like they are with conscripts.
DoomMouse wrote: I'm just wondering why punishers are suddenly the new hotness now the turret shots are doubled? Don't get me wrong, 40 shots is very nice, but I didn't see anyone running them before, and all the russes got exactly the same buff...
The Paskisher cannon will be averaging 7 dead marines *by itself* - ((5 * 4 * 2)/216 )* 40) which becomes a non trivial deal, whereas everything but the exterminator (of all things) would still be scraping around 5 or so with average random shots.
I think it's more because everyone's flipped their proverbial about conscripts and 'Moar Dakka' seems like the natural solution, despite it only killing 14~ average with the upgrade.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oldman Lee wrote: What are people thoughts on a armoured company list are they viable at all? Also what super heavy would work best in a armoured company ?
Cheapest + sponsons.
Steel Behemoth giving 'ignores heavy weapons' is HUGE and makes the lascannon/heavy bolter setup remarkably viable
I'll personally be going for the stormsword as they found the missing 'good ammo' somewhere, and it's going to be forcing invuls on everything, even in cover.
Edit: And most importantly it's UNNATURAL to have a gatling gun on a LR Tank!
I've been slowly working a conversion of a 3rd edition ebay russ with a hull mounted punisher, turning it literally into a gatling gun on tracks. I quite agree that having it turret mounted just doesn't look right :|
Has anyone tried the Deathstrike? By that I mean has anyone taken it and then actually managed to fire it off. I was thinking hide it for turn 1 as far back as possible hopefully avoiding the enemies wrath, turn 2 pop smoke and maybe use take cover to keep it alive then fire in turn 3 on 5+ (use a command point to reroll making it a 50% chance)
Alternatively, and this is super sneaky, take it as part of a Tallarn detachment, use the Ambush Stratagem and bring it onto the board turn 3/4. Tallarn doctrine means it doesn't have -1 to hit with heavy even if you moved so you could fire it immediately. If you combined this stratagem with the new Vortex missile stratagem then you are eating up 6CPs but damn!!
Its unclear if all 3 ambushing units have to be brought onto the board at the same time but if you were able to stagger them then 2 x LRBT brought in turn 1/2 and then Deathstrike later...
So Titanic units do get regimental bonuses in the Super-Heavy Detachment.
Looks like Super Heavy Regiments are viable (yay for me!) but bringing a regular Super Heavy to an otherwise normal game will dock you points (unless it is part of a Supreme Command detachment).
Oldman Lee wrote: What are people thoughts on a armoured company list are they viable at all? Also what super heavy would work best in a armoured company ?
I like this question. When 8E first came out I took every bit of armor I had (which really wasn't enough), sprinkled the required bodies in per the detachment and viola. A buddy of mine did the same with better effect - he ran a hoard of LBRT's, three bassies, two manticores and a couple of infantry units, etc. I still don't know where he came up with so many LBRT's but he did finally abandon the list and moved on to Chaos and Eldar lists.
Still I wouldn't mind building up a three super heavy vehicle baneblade variant list. I just got three FW earth shaker carriages (from ChinaWorld) and they accidentally threw in the parts to make Trojan support vehicles...I see that as a sign...
Otto von Bludd wrote: I don't like the Punisher, I much prefer the LRBT as a go-to tank. 40 shots is indeed nice, but having 24" range, no AP value and only 1 damage per shot really makes it ineffective vs anything other than light infantry compared to a well rolled battle cannon shot. Since light infantry is already dealt with more efficiently by ever present mortars, lasguns and heavy bolters, I see no reason to use a Punisher. If I want Punisher Cannons I take them on a deepstriking Elysian Vulture.
Edit: And most importantly it's UNNATURAL to have a gatling gun on a LR Tank!
You want a punisher on pask or a commander. The amount of infantry horde the game has now makes it pretty darn good.
I wouldn't suggest taking all your tanks as punishers, but it really does benefit you to have one
Otto von Bludd wrote: Edit: And most importantly it's UNNATURAL to have a gatling gun on a LR Tank!
Totally agree, but I won't deny it seems like an effective tank.
Maybe you could convert a Russ to have a quad autocannon - basically a double Exterminator - and field it as a Punisher?
No, commissars of all types are <Officio Prefectus> and thus dont get <Regiment> or its bonuses. On the plus side you can take a lord commissar and he won't stop your <regimemt> unit from receiving doctrine bonuses.
Ir0njack wrote: No, commissars of all types are <Officio Prefectus> and thus dont get <Regiment> or its bonuses. On the plus side you can take a lord commissar and he won't stop your <regimemt> unit from receiving doctrine bonuses.
Well, that's really disappointing.
I take it that means Lord Commissars cant take the Vostoryan warlord trait even when they're in a Vostoryan detachment?
I won't deny the Punisher is good, but when considering its damage output vs other variants we need to factor in that it may have one less round of shooting (though this is less of an issue with certain doctrines now) and that short range means it may not be able to engage the target it wants to. It's also open to be counter deployed against and, as it shoots at 24", it may only ever get 1 turn of shooting because it puts itself in danger by getting in that range.
The sooner you can put damage on targets the better, with turn 1 being the most important turn to do it in, and this is a major drawback of the Punisher.
It's things like this that keep the Punisher from being the go-to in my opinion.
I think that there is only the option for the power sword in the new codex, not the axe/maul. That could hurt some people's models. I guess you can "counts as" for them at least. I lived through the "sergeants can't have lasguns" apocalypse, this is nothing.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I won't deny the Punisher is good, but when considering its damage output vs other variants we need to factor in that it may have one less round of shooting (though this is less of an issue with certain doctrines now) and that short range means it may not be able to engage the target it wants to. It's also open to be counter deployed against and, as it shoots at 24", it may only ever get 1 turn of shooting because it puts itself in danger by getting in that range.
What about if you use it with the Vostoryan Doctorine?
Otto von Bludd wrote: I won't deny the Punisher is good, but when considering its damage output vs other variants we need to factor in that it may have one less round of shooting (though this is less of an issue with certain doctrines now) and that short range means it may not be able to engage the target it wants to. It's also open to be counter deployed against and, as it shoots at 24", it may only ever get 1 turn of shooting because it puts itself in danger by getting in that range.
The sooner you can put damage on targets the better, with turn 1 being the most important turn to do it in, and this is a major drawback of the Punisher.
It's things like this that keep the Punisher from being the go-to in my opinion.
Field one to three punishers in a Tallarn regiment and outflank them using the stratagem. You'll either be in range or have caused your opponent to modify their scheme of maneuver to account for three outflanking tanks. It is match up dependent of course but it can be a real game changer.
Otto von Bludd wrote: I don't like the Punisher, I much prefer the LRBT as a go-to tank. 40 shots is indeed nice, but having 24" range, no AP value and only 1 damage per shot really makes it ineffective vs anything other than light infantry compared to a well rolled battle cannon shot. Since light infantry is already dealt with more efficiently by ever present mortars, lasguns and heavy bolters, I see no reason to use a Punisher. If I want Punisher Cannons I take them on a deepstriking Elysian Vulture.
Edit: And most importantly it's UNNATURAL to have a gatling gun on a LR Tank!
You want a punisher on pask or a commander. The amount of infantry horde the game has now makes it pretty darn good.
I wouldn't suggest taking all your tanks as punishers, but it really does benefit you to have one
If you want to feth up hordes then just take cyclopes demo vehicles from a catachan detachment. Those things will absolutely mulch an enemy infantry line in one round and they are cheap as dirt even compared to a punisher. Just hide them behind a pair of hellhounds first turn and then drive them up turn 2 and profit. Punisher is definitely over rated, its solid depending on your doctrine and I can see it for example on talarn ambushers or mordian objective grabbers (go ahead charge my tanks lol) but ultimately deveral other variants are much more useful more often. ap- is god awful against some of the stronger units out there right now, castellans in aegis for example, pretty much any infantry in cover lol. Against ANY supersonic target. Then there is the range issue, if I am taking russes I want them dealing damage turn 1+ not turn 2+ and in a pinch if you need those shots elsewhere on the table suddenly, grinding advance and short range will screw you over again. Not hating on it just saying it isnt the end all be all.
I went through the new codex making note of changes not well publicised, not double checked my list yet though. Theres a huge amount of changes to power level but relatively few to points cost. Weirdly some stuff has gone down in points and up in power level.
Points changes:
Baneblade -40
Shadowsword -40
Hellhammer -40
Banehammer -20
Hydra -15
Leman Russ -10 (all variants merged) but no point reduction for Pask or Tank Commander
Master of Ordinance -8
Taurox -15
Enginseer -10
Valkyrie -20
Colonel Straken -15
Hot Shot Volley Gun -3
Melta Cannon -15
Special Weapon Squad -15 (from removal of mandatory Demo charges though must still take 3 special weapons instead so only cheaper in theory)
Heavy Weapon Squad +2
Taurox Prime +5
Plasma gun on a <4+ BS unit +6
Power Points Changes:
Company Commander -1
Tank Commander -1
Pask -1
Colonel Straken -1
Command Squad -1
Special Weapons Squad -1
Veterans Squad -1 Autogun added as weapon choice but identical statline to lasgun.
Ministorum Priest -1 (and lost weapons except Autogun and chainsword)
Servitors -1
Ratlings remain 2 (while 5 more is -1 to 1)
Armoured Sentinels gained 1 toughness
Leman Russ -1
Leman Russ Demolisher -2 (merged with normal russ)
Valkyrie -2
Baneblade -2
Hellhammer -1
Shadowsword -1
Stormlord -1
Tempestor Prime +1
Crusaders +1 to 2 (While each 2 more unchanged at 1)
Ogryn +1 to 5 (But additional 3/6 remain +4/8)
Hellhounds +1
Scout Sentinel +1
Basilisk +1 (while additions remain unchanged)
Hydra +1 (while additions remain unchanged)
Wyverns +1 (addition was changed this time)
Manticore +1 (still cant squadron)
Chimera +1
Banesword +1
Doomhammer +1
Stormsword +1
Melee Weapon list has had power maul and power axe removed.
New Vehicle equipment list
Augur array 10 points 1 hit die reroll with unit per game in shooting phase
Dozer Blade 5 points +1 weapon skill on turn unit charges
Track Guards 10 points, ignore damage table in regards to range degradation
Heavy Stubber
Storm Bolter
Hunter Killer Missile
* A vehicle cannot take both a heavy stubber and a storm bolter
**Every vehicle can access vehicle equipment list except Sentinels, Valkyrie and Baneblade variants
Comes with cannon and 1 heavy bolter,
May replace heavy bolter with heavy flamer or Lascannon
May take two Heavy Bolters/Flamers/Multi Melta/plasma cannon
May take items from vehicle equipment list.
Ahh I see I put Heavy Bolter instead of Storm Bolter in equipment list, amended.
So, just to be clear, I can take a LRBT with a hull mounted heavy bolter, 2 sponson heavy bolters, and another heavy bolter from the vehicle equipment list?
Automatically Appended Next Post: (I don’t have the codex yet)
I really saw more point increases than that coming. Wow. This is going to be a really, really good codex.
So, like, what's the guard primary weakness at this point? Mobility still? It seems like everything is rewarding you for sitting still or not moving very far (in the case of the LR).
Based on these changes my 100 power/2000 point Armoured/Artillery Column list got 2 power more expensive and 71 points cheaper, my mixed infantry/armour list got both 2 power and nearly 100 points cheaper.
You will generally be worse off power wise if your army had a lot of artillery and points wise if you had a lot of veterans with plasma otherwise you should be better off.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
daedalus wrote: I really saw more point increases than that coming. Wow. This is going to be a really, really good codex.
So, like, what's the guard primary weakness at this point? Mobility still? It seems like everything is rewarding you for sitting still or not moving very far (in the case of the LR).
Probably lack of invul saves apart from Crusaders/Bullgryn and a couple of characters meaning vehicles are very vulnerable to AP (6+ on Plasma equivalent and no save on Lascannon/Melta) and troops are very vulnerable to Ap 0/1 Dakka. Powerful psykers and vehicle explosions that cause area effect mortal wounds also hurt a lot as we tend to have higher numbers of units in a small area meaning more victims and we are still generally inferior to everything else in melee apart from a couple of specialist units that can match terminators blow for blow.
Just noticed, Demolition charges gone from codex, possibly explains power reduction of Special Weapons squad. Now instead of 3 models (of 6) must take demolition charge or replace their lasgun with a special weapon its just 3 must replace with a special weapons, updating changes list.
Played a competitive against chaos today. Some observations:
Some of my observations:
The catachan doctrine combined with the the manticores and master of ordance makes them EXTREMELY dangerous and potent for enemy armour / multi wound models.
Scions are dangerous as ever, and plasma absolutely worth it. The scions wrecked the enemy Knight with their plasma guns. The extra shot on a '6 came up so many times, really boosting their damage potential.
Vengeance for cadia combined with the vulture gunships' strafing run was so insanely powerful.
I raced to check the valkyrie drop ships grav chute rule because I was expecting a text change similar to the admech castellans repulser grid, but it's the same as the apendix lol. So incredibly dirty, but yet now valkyries get +1 to hit when in hover mode, rumors made it sound as if they simply ignored the movement penalty in hover mode but its so much better, a hovering valk that doesn't move hits on 3's this isn't incredible but it isn't bad either considering how deadly this makes a gunship with MRP's and heavy B's. Thats quite a bit of dakka right there. Oh btw they also got cheaper lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I should note this has me gitty since I was plannign on putting a mixture of straken, harker, priest, company commanders/command squads and bullgryn in to a pair of drop ships and I am even more exited after reading the reilcs. There are a pair of swords in there, one catachan and then the one leaked that are gross on catachan company commanders. One is s+2 ap-4 d3 dmg while the catachan one is s+2 ap-3 d2.... with the buffs nearby thats a lot of beat down for a bunch of over muscled action movie heros lol
btw not only are demo charges gone So are evicerators on priests.... again
I like the sound of cheaper Valks, with plasma guns and Taurox Primes going up in price, I was running short of point for my list, this might allow me to fit everything.
I should note this has me gitty since I was plannign on putting a mixture of straken, harker, priest, company commanders/command squads and bullgryn in to a pair of drop ships and I am even more exited after reading the reilcs. There are a pair of swords in there, one catachan and then the one leaked that are gross on catachan company commanders. One is s+2 ap-4 d3 dmg while the catachan one is s+2 ap-3 d2.... with the buffs nearby thats a lot of beat down for a bunch of over muscled action movie heros lol
Those are both nice, but I think I'd rather take a Power Fist and have one of the more defensive relics (like the Death Mask of Ollanius).
daedalus wrote: I really saw more point increases than that coming. Wow. This is going to be a really, really good codex.
So, like, what's the guard primary weakness at this point? Mobility still? It seems like everything is rewarding you for sitting still or not moving very far (in the case of the LR).
Tallarn are super mobile and, in my opinion, the best regiment, at least on tables with good terrain. Thye get the old old eldar trick of "Pop out, shoot, order yourself back behind cover" that vectored engines used to do in 4th I belive (and was tournament winning).
I'm thinking a plasma command squad with a medkit to back upup a unit of crusaders so they can potentially get two models back in a round while also giving the crusaders have some ranged support. Probably run them a Vostroyan so they can use "Repel the enemy!" And fire those plasma gun into a unit that charges the crusaders.
Aight so, I'm getting my Codex this thursday so I'm doing this out the top of my head from leaks. But how about we start listing all the little changes that are in the Codex compared to the index?
So I'm not talking about the big changes like the regimental doctrines or the changes to Grinding Advance/Steel Behemoth, but the little ones.
Please help me by adding/correcting the changes I wrote down:
-Pask/Tank commander; can now order themselves?
-Leman Russ tank down by 10 points.
-Creed now has 12" order range?
-Conscripts are down to a max squad size of 30 and only accept orders on a 4+.
-Plasma gun point cost increased from 7 to 13 for BS 3+ models.
-Bullgryn Slab shield now gives +2 to their save, rather than a 2+ save.
-Master of Ordnance aura improved from 3" to 6".
-Armoured Sentinels improved from T5 to T6.
-Hellhound Inferno Cannon;
from D6 S6 AP-1 damage 2
to 2D6 S6 AP-1 damage 1
-Devildog, Melta cannon changed to Assault D3?
-Basilisk Earthshaker Cannon from AP-2 to AP-3.
-Hydra went down 20 points in cost?
-Valkyries went down 20 point in cost?
Valkyries now get +1 to hit when hovering.
-Super-heavies;
All went down 40 points?
All main guns improved by D6 shots.
exceptions;
-Shadowsword; changed from D6 to 3D3.
-Stormlord.
Wait a second... Under advisors and auxilla I don't see the officio assassinorum listed. Does that mean guard can no longer sprinkle in an assassin or two? That seems bad :(
I did a post a couple of pages ago, most of what you wrotes right but Hydra went down 15 not 20 and not all Superheavies went down in price.
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ThePorcupine wrote: Wait a second... Under advisors and auxilla I don't see the officio assassinorum listed. Does that mean guard can no longer sprinkle in an assassin or two? That seems bad :(
They can as Imperial but they will lose battleforged and regimental doctrine, you could have a detachment of Auxillaries and put the assassins in there without losing anything as Aux wont gain regimental bonus anyway.
WatcherZero wrote: I did a post a couple of pages ago, most of what you wrotes right but Hydra went down 15 not 20 and not all Superheavies went down in price.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ThePorcupine wrote: Wait a second... Under advisors and auxilla I don't see the officio assassinorum listed. Does that mean guard can no longer sprinkle in an assassin or two? That seems bad :(
They can as Imperial but they will lose battleforged and regimental doctrine, you could have a detachment of Auxillaries and put the assassins in there without losing anything as Aux wont gain regimental bonus anyway.
Right. So if you want to take an assassin, it needs to be in its own detachment, will cost you 1CP. And you can only take 1 assassin per auxillary detachment. So god held you if you want to take 2.
Seems like assassins are rather unusable :/
ThePorcupine wrote: Right. So if you want to take an assassin, it needs to be in its own detachment, will cost you 1CP. And you can only take 1 assassin per auxillary detachment. So god held you if you want to take 2.
Seems like assassins are rather unusable :/
1cp for an assassin doesn't seem too bad. Or you could take a vanguard or supreme command detachment and splash in some inquisitors or knights or something.
Had the pleasure of making one of our uber competitive players concede the end of turn 1 against mono cadia:
Bobby G; two units of custodes a plurality of deep strike GK paladins and some fabulous psychic & shooting mixed in somewhere for good measure. wiped fully 1/3 of the non-deep striking part of his army by going first, and 1/2 of it in overwatch.
Cadian innate reroll 1s and +1 to hit stratagem is phenomenal; 30 3+ reroll 1 to hit Heavy Bolters from a shadowsword is actually filth. Defensive gunners on quad sponson shadowsword made me roll 110 dice in my opponents phase, killing no less than 7 Paladins and spoiling every charge attempt.
That in 2k I had 3 SHTs, one with quad sponsons and 3 manticores made me realise that i'll need to play index without an appointment. Without even trying, IG can straight up suck the fun out of the game :|
Mobility is nice and all, but Cadian IG just flat out ignores the need for a combo system for artillery *and* superheavies by having it built in; combined with the overlapping fire rule to flat out delete units who look at you funny and I think hardcore cadian guard is going to win by tabling every time; they actually have enough high accuracy unit ending weapons that mobility and cover simply won't matter.
WatcherZero wrote: I did a post a couple of pages ago, most of what you wrotes right but Hydra went down 15 not 20 and not all Superheavies went down in price.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ThePorcupine wrote: Wait a second... Under advisors and auxilla I don't see the officio assassinorum listed. Does that mean guard can no longer sprinkle in an assassin or two? That seems bad :(
They can as Imperial but they will lose battleforged and regimental doctrine, you could have a detachment of Auxillaries and put the assassins in there without losing anything as Aux wont gain regimental bonus anyway.
Right. So if you want to take an assassin, it needs to be in its own detachment, will cost you 1CP. And you can only take 1 assassin per auxillary detachment. So god held you if you want to take 2.
Seems like assassins are rather unusable :/
Well, or you just take a Vanguard detachment with a Commissar HQ and 3 Assassins.
malamis wrote: Had the pleasure of making one of our uber competitive players concede the end of turn 1 against mono cadia:
Bobby G; two units of custodes a plurality of deep strike GK paladins and some fabulous psychic & shooting mixed in somewhere for good measure. wiped fully 1/3 of the non-deep striking part of his army by going first, and 1/2 of it in overwatch.
The... uber competitive player running grey knights, custodes, Robby in the same list?
Hahahahahaha oh god
Did you just brag about stomping some random guys clearly awful list with an eldar tier codex?
If you want more than one, you could take them in a Vanguard detachment. A primaris psyker as HQ, maybe another support elite (enginseer, priest, etc), and as manny assassins as you like, *and* you even get a CP out of it.
Edit: Seems Ive left this tab open for too long... ah well. What everyone else said, I guess. <.<
The... uber competitive player running grey knights, custodes, Robby in the same list?
Hahahahahaha oh god
Did you just brag about stomping some random guys clearly awful list with an eldar tier codex?
I dunno about 'awful' given he's undefeated with it since the SM codex came out; may just be the local meta
Thing is I was aware the victory literally had nothing to do with me; all I did was shoot everything at what was in line of sight from left to right, and react to his actions in over watch. I didn't even move a single model. This is somewhat worrying from a codex design viewpoint :|
Custodes are just awful cost wise, just drown them in bodies. Brimstones will literally destroy them and even conscripts can if you toss a priest nearby. Same really applies to all elite infantry right now, though I suppose greyknights are slightly less vulnerable with smite.
I wouldn't be using this particular battle as your baseline for the codex. Guard should've already been able to beat him, I'd say it's either due to your list changing or you were using something kinda suboptimal before that got brought in line with this dex.
Shadowswords are kinda busted but in all honesty this one is really on him. I'd wait and see if anyone else can put up a fight. There are a few lists that should be able to still.
Tyr13 wrote: If you want more than one, you could take them in a Vanguard detachment. A primaris psyker as HQ, maybe another support elite (enginseer, priest, etc), and as manny assassins as you like, *and* you even get a CP out of it.
Edit: Seems Ive left this tab open for too long... ah well. What everyone else said, I guess. <.<
Still seems bad. My tank company list included one eversor assassin to deepstrike in and cause havoc. I don't own 3. Or any enginseers.
Tyr13 wrote: If you want more than one, you could take them in a Vanguard detachment. A primaris psyker as HQ, maybe another support elite (enginseer, priest, etc), and as manny assassins as you like, *and* you even get a CP out of it.
Edit: Seems Ive left this tab open for too long... ah well. What everyone else said, I guess. <.<
Still seems bad. My tank company list included one eversor assassin to deepstrike in and cause havoc. I don't own 3. Or any enginseers.
Eh, jut take the 1cp hit if you have to. Make your relic the extra cp one and you are still ahead of where you were.
Trickstick wrote: I mean, how much terrain did you have that you could even shoot anything turn 1 against an elite army? Why didn't he just hide?
About 1/2 of the mid line was blocked line of sight, (it's GW so terrain is literally underfoot all the time). Only the ShadowSword and Hellhammer had full line of sight to everything, Pask only got his lascannon off by the time I got to him. The third SHC didn't actually do anything as the rest of the army was a conga line of characters out of range by the time I finished the 3++ wall off.
Tyr13 wrote: If you want more than one, you could take them in a Vanguard detachment. A primaris psyker as HQ, maybe another support elite (enginseer, priest, etc), and as manny assassins as you like, *and* you even get a CP out of it.
Edit: Seems Ive left this tab open for too long... ah well. What everyone else said, I guess. <.<
Still seems bad. My tank company list included one eversor assassin to deepstrike in and cause havoc. I don't own 3. Or any enginseers.
Take one Primaris and 2 Astropaths. They will be very useful and only cost like ~70pts.
rhinoceraids wrote: So if you add in forgeworld kits do you lose the doctrines? Or do they just not benefit from it.
Who knows? Technically they don't, as the Imperial Armour Index only references Index 2 when saying that you can take stuff in an IG army. Of course, we know it is _supposed_ to be fine to just add them in. Expect a FWfaq soon to fix this. And by soon, I mean anytime from now, 1 year from now or even never. They are small and sometimes just don't update things. Hell, they never updated the ABG list to work with the 6th ed codex, which sort of sucked.
Talk with your opponents really. Should be fine to use any FW stuff with <regiment> but Elysian/DKOK stuff gets trickier.
Any indications yet if Earthshaker carriages/batteries get the AP -3 from the Codex? I would assume that you would use the Earthshaker Cannon weapon profile from the Codex, but then again, Deathwatch still take 20 point power fists so I have no idea how this is intended to work.
RogueApiary wrote: Any indications yet if Earthshaker carriages/batteries get the AP -3 from the Codex? I would assume that you would use the Earthshaker Cannon weapon profile from the Codex, but then again, Deathwatch still take 20 point power fists so I have no idea how this is intended to work.
Not until FW updates them. I had to use old points costs for the entire time I wanted to field my beast-hunter vanquisher. You can't just pick what you want. Unless your opponents are cool with it of course. The price of Forgeworld is slow updates. Well, besides the actual price.
malamis wrote: Had the pleasure of making one of our uber competitive players concede the end of turn 1 against mono cadia:
Bobby G; two units of custodes a plurality of deep strike GK paladins and some fabulous psychic & shooting mixed in somewhere for good measure. wiped fully 1/3 of the non-deep striking part of his army by going first, and 1/2 of it in overwatch.
Cadian innate reroll 1s and +1 to hit stratagem is phenomenal; 30 3+ reroll 1 to hit Heavy Bolters from a shadowsword is actually filth. Defensive gunners on quad sponson shadowsword made me roll 110 dice in my opponents phase, killing no less than 7 Paladins and spoiling every charge attempt.
That in 2k I had 3 SHTs, one with quad sponsons and 3 manticores made me realise that i'll need to play index without an appointment. Without even trying, IG can straight up suck the fun out of the game :|
Mobility is nice and all, but Cadian IG just flat out ignores the need for a combo system for artillery *and* superheavies by having it built in; combined with the overlapping fire rule to flat out delete units who look at you funny and I think hardcore cadian guard is going to win by tabling every time; they actually have enough high accuracy unit ending weapons that mobility and cover simply won't matter.
A list of 3 Superheavy tanks may not be a good indication of how the army is going to perform generally. Your triple superheavy list "sucking the fun out of the game" is different than IG sucking the fun out of the game. It just isn't a good list to draw sweeping conclusions from. That list would crush unprepared opponents just the same if you ran it out of the index.
A list of 3 Superheavy tanks may not be a good indication of how the army is going to perform generally. Your triple superheavy list "sucking the fun out of the game" is different than IG sucking the fun out of the game. It just isn't a good list to draw sweeping conclusions from. That list would crush unprepared opponents just the same if you ran it out of the index.
Quite true, but, it is emblematic of what IG has; hard counters; extreme survivability and the best straight up high damage as well as possibly the best priced indirect fire weapons. With the numerous accuracy improving abilities that just got unleashed the in-game drawbacks to IG are, shall we say, somewhat slim?
Shadowswords really are pretty crazy. A barebones Shadowsword is now I think 406 points (with storm bolter). Its volcano cannon alone, and without considering doctrines or other buffs, expects 9.6 wounds on a Predator, 10.3 wounds on a Russ, 12.7 wounds on a Land Raider, 9.1 wounds on a Stormraven, 22.1 wounds on another Baneblade, and 16.2 on a Knight.
So against another superheavy it is coming pretty close to making its cost back in a single shot. It expects to make back well more than half its points against something like a Land Raider, and almost half against a tricked-out Russ or Stormraven or Predator. It's less efficient against these lighter vehicles mostly because it tends to overkill them.
It's harder to figure out which regiment to make them. Cadia seems like the obvious choice but you probably don't want to be sitting still -- you want to be charging forwards to maybe take advantage of Crush Them. The Catachan doctrine has a pretty negligible effect -- it boosts expected wounds vs a Land Raider by only about 6%. The Vostroyan stratagem is a lot better, since it improves expected wounds vs a LR by 14%. The Valhallan doctrine will have a similar impact to the Vostroyan stratagem some of the time, and will keep it more effective in CC for longer.
Did plasma pistols on scion sergeants go up in the codex, or just the plasma guns? Is a squad of 5 with 2x plasma guns, 2x hot shot lasguns, and a chainsword/plasma pistol Tempestor now 78 points instead of 66? Thanks to whoever got their book before me!
MacPhail wrote: Did plasma pistols on scion sergeants go up in the codex, or just the plasma guns? Is a squad of 5 with 2x plasma guns, 2x hot shot lasguns, and a chainsword/plasma pistol Tempestor now 78 points instead of 66? Thanks to whoever got their book before me!
Looks correct.
In other news: new plan! 3 Vanguard detachments with maxxed out Ogryn Bodyguards. That's 18 individual T5 6W 4++sv Ogryn for around 990 points. Each is a character of less than 10 wounds, so only the closest can be targeted. If one of them loses a wound, a different one can, on a 3+, suffer a mortal wound instead. So you can spread wounds around. Further, if the ogryn you want to eat the damage is in the back, you can potentially daisy chain the wound to him, albeit with the correct rolls of 3+ (Ogryn A took damage! Ogryn B intercepts, suffering a mortal wound! Ogryn B took damage! Ogryn C intercepts, suffering a mortal wound!). So, you have a formation of 108 wounds worth of models that lose their first model after suffering 91 damage. Bear in mind, that with the Celestine + Primaris Psyker + Strategem, the model you can shoot at is sporting a 2++, potentially. Or, you can just take 4++ saves across the block.
MacPhail wrote: Did plasma pistols on scion sergeants go up in the codex, or just the plasma guns? Is a squad of 5 with 2x plasma guns, 2x hot shot lasguns, and a chainsword/plasma pistol Tempestor now 78 points instead of 66? Thanks to whoever got their book before me!
Looks correct.
In other news: new plan! 3 Vanguard detachments with maxxed out Ogryn Bodyguards. That's 18 individual T5 6W 4++sv Ogryn for around 990 points. Each is a character of less than 10 wounds, so only the closest can be targeted. If one of them loses a wound, a different one can, on a 3+, suffer a mortal wound instead. So you can spread wounds around. Further, if the ogryn you want to eat the damage is in the back, you can potentially daisy chain the wound to him, albeit with the correct rolls of 3+ (Ogryn A took damage! Ogryn B intercepts, suffering a mortal wound! Ogryn B took damage! Ogryn C intercepts, suffering a mortal wound!). So, you have a formation of 108 wounds worth of models that lose their first model after suffering 91 damage. Bear in mind, that with the Celestine + Primaris Psyker + Strategem, the model you can shoot at is sporting a 2++, potentially. Or, you can just take 4++ saves across the block.
Needs FAQ. Sooner than later.
Can an Ogryn Bodyguard take a wound for a Culexus? Asking for a friend...
Would there be any benefit to taking the codex one over the index?
Sorry for the tardy reply was at work. So after comparing them, looks like we lost the shotgun, evicerator AND plasma gun options lol. Otherwise they are identical except for costs. Codex one is cheaper 2pl to 3pl from the index both 35pts. So basically they just got worse in terms of gear. Pretty sure you have to use the codex entry since its the most recent dataslate, although I can see how that is awkward for other armies of the imperium that are not using the guard book.
MacPhail wrote: Did plasma pistols on scion sergeants go up in the codex, or just the plasma guns? Is a squad of 5 with 2x plasma guns, 2x hot shot lasguns, and a chainsword/plasma pistol Tempestor now 78 points instead of 66? Thanks to whoever got their book before me!
Looks correct.
In other news: new plan! 3 Vanguard detachments with maxxed out Ogryn Bodyguards. That's 18 individual T5 6W 4++sv Ogryn for around 990 points. Each is a character of less than 10 wounds, so only the closest can be targeted. If one of them loses a wound, a different one can, on a 3+, suffer a mortal wound instead. So you can spread wounds around. Further, if the ogryn you want to eat the damage is in the back, you can potentially daisy chain the wound to him, albeit with the correct rolls of 3+ (Ogryn A took damage! Ogryn B intercepts, suffering a mortal wound! Ogryn B took damage! Ogryn C intercepts, suffering a mortal wound!). So, you have a formation of 108 wounds worth of models that lose their first model after suffering 91 damage. Bear in mind, that with the Celestine + Primaris Psyker + Strategem, the model you can shoot at is sporting a 2++, potentially. Or, you can just take 4++ saves across the block.
Needs FAQ. Sooner than later.
Can an Ogryn Bodyguard take a wound for a Culexus? Asking for a friend...
No, they can only play blocker foir friendly astra militarum characters
Happy to be back using the shadowsword. Itll be nice to get 3d3 and hitting on 2's if I didnt move and I use the cadia strategem. Along with re-rolling 1's. (Assuming its vs a titan)
Im a bit overwelmed with warhammer and all the new changes. I've vowed to stop spending money on it all lol
Dionysodorus wrote: Shadowswords really are pretty crazy. A barebones Shadowsword is now I think 406 points (with storm bolter). Its volcano cannon alone, and without considering doctrines or other buffs, expects 9.6 wounds on a Predator, 10.3 wounds on a Russ, 12.7 wounds on a Land Raider, 9.1 wounds on a Stormraven, 22.1 wounds on another Baneblade, and 16.2 on a Knight.
So against another superheavy it is coming pretty close to making its cost back in a single shot. It expects to make back well more than half its points against something like a Land Raider, and almost half against a tricked-out Russ or Stormraven or Predator. It's less efficient against these lighter vehicles mostly because it tends to overkill them.
It's harder to figure out which regiment to make them. Cadia seems like the obvious choice but you probably don't want to be sitting still -- you want to be charging forwards to maybe take advantage of Crush Them. The Catachan doctrine has a pretty negligible effect -- it boosts expected wounds vs a Land Raider by only about 6%. The Vostroyan stratagem is a lot better, since it improves expected wounds vs a LR by 14%. The Valhallan doctrine will have a similar impact to the Vostroyan stratagem some of the time, and will keep it more effective in CC for longer.
malamis wrote: Had the pleasure of making one of our uber competitive players concede the end of turn 1 against mono cadia:
That in 2k I had 3 SHTs , one with quad sponsons and 3 manticores made me realise that i'll need to play index without an appointment. Without even trying, IG can straight up suck the fun out of the game :|
I too would concede turn 1, maybe not even before I deployed if I had to see that. I can't see how that army would ever be fun for the opposing side unless they specifically built against it. I would work on maybe not bringing three SHTs in a 2k game and maybe something a bit more casual if you are looking to increase fun levels.
Who would even use them? As in that they are supposedly used every time someone plays IG.
It's not like they are the only bubble wrap awailable.
Platoons are gone in the traditional sense, so they're the only "blobs" we have now.
On top of that, they're practically fearless with commissars, the cheapest and most efficient infantry in the game, benefit from orders 50-75% of the time, have a good all around weapon in a pinch, and just are all in all a pain in the ass to remove. They're not tough in the traditional sense so much as they are just so ridiculously cheap that most weapons and units that attack them are just not efficient enough to remove them in time. You're spending like 90pts on conscripts to hold up like 3-400pts of the enemy's army from killing your main units.
This is ignoring the new things they gained, such as objective secured, and regiment traits, which means that now they get to be S4 if they're catachans, reroll 1's if they're cadians, increased rapid fire range if vostroyans or steel legion, BS 5+ overwatch as Mordians, or take half losses from battleshock and practically endlessly respawn as Valhallans.
It's one of the closest things in the game to a no brainer right now. If you want troops to hold objectives, screen, or even just harass enemy infantry, conscripts with a commissar are one of the most efficient choices in the game. The crazy part is stormtroopers and infantry squads are crazy good too, they're just not as insane as conscripts.
I too would concede turn 1, maybe not even before I deployed if I had to see that. I can't see how that army would ever be fun for the opposing side unless they specifically built against it. I would work on maybe not bringing three SHTs in a 2k game and maybe something a bit more casual if you are looking to increase fun levels.
Almost this exact army went up against the same player in TWC 7th and was pasted turn 3 - hence why we tried it.
No, GW clarified that any ability that resurrects an existing unit doesn't require reinforcement points (and zombifying counts as ressurecting) summoning a brand new unit e.g. Daemon does require reinforcement points though.
WatcherZero wrote: No, GW clarified that any ability that resurrects an existing unit doesn't require reinforcement points (and zombifying counts as ressurecting) summoning a brand new unit e.g. Daemon does require reinforcement points though.
Could you send me a link to that clarification, because it's the exact opposite of what the Reinforcement Point rule states?
WatcherZero wrote: No, GW clarified that any ability that resurrects an existing unit doesn't require reinforcement points (and zombifying counts as ressurecting) summoning a brand new unit e.g. Daemon does require reinforcement points though.
Could you send me a link to that clarification, because it's the exact opposite of what the Reinforcement Point rule states?
Isn't reinforcements as such, but you are completely scrapping one unit for another, rather than adding another complete unit to your army. In other words you are 'respawning' a unit, even if there are some survivors.
It's more or less like the meat grinder attacker rules from 3rd where you can remove a unit and redeploy it at the attackers table edge.
WatcherZero wrote: No, GW clarified that any ability that resurrects an existing unit doesn't require reinforcement points (and zombifying counts as ressurecting) summoning a brand new unit e.g. Daemon does require reinforcement points though.
Could you send me a link to that clarification, because it's the exact opposite of what the Reinforcement Point rule states?
It appears to cost points as-is, though note that the week-1 faqs for Chaos and AdMech both clarified that their similar stratagems did not require points (even though in those cases the clarification seems unnecessary).
The key is the difference between Unit and Model wording, all the resurrection abilities work by resurrecting models not units, Send in the next wave has to be used on an existing unit and respawns them to full at the edge of the board, its not creating a new unit.
Rules Errata
REINFORCEMENTS Q: If a rule creates a new unit during the battle in a matched play game and adds them to my army, must I pay for the unit with my reinforcement points? A: Yes (unless the rule itself says otherwise). If you don’t have enough reinforcement points, you cannot add that unit to your army.
Q: What about rules that transform one model into another model – such as turning an enemy Character into a Chaos Spawn; do I still need to pay reinforcement points to add the Chaos Spawn to my army? A: Again, yes (unless the rule itself says otherwise).
Q: What about rules that add models to existing units; do I need to pay reinforcement points for those models? A: No (unless the rule itself says otherwise).
The clarification they provided recently was to the rule interpretation debate if unit and model are indeed treated separately and you could overstrength units and to Admech they said their identical strategy didn't require reinforcement points
Q: Can Poxwalkers use the Curse of the Walking Pox ability to increase the unit above its starting strength? A: Yes.
Q: If the Poxwalkers’ Curse of the Walking Pox ability increases the unit above its starting strength, does this cost reinforcement points? A: No.
Haven't seen if confirmed in tha thread so I'll do it. We no longer have access to power weapons except swords and fist.
*Erk never mind I skimmed right over it.
Anyways, so with the tallarn strat and dagger I was thinking as part of a 2k list, Supreme Command <Tallarn> with two plasma vet or plasma special weapon teams and three Punisher tank commanders. I'm undecided as if it would be better to mount heavy bolters all around on the tanks and use the order to duck back out of LOS after shooting or mount heavy flamers and use the order to roll in and burninate. That backed by a decent brigade of Cadians in my head atleast sound like it can be a devestating alpha or even beta strike since even without those models on the table you can a build damn solid firebase out of just the Cadian brigade.
vipoid wrote: So, a couple of other questions regarding Send in the Next Wave:
1) Are you allowed to bring back a unit when the last man fled instead of being destroyed?
2) If you bring back a destroyed unit, do you have to exclude models in that unit that fled during the battle?
It doesn't matter at all. Fleeing is the same as dying, can't see anything in the rules that would make it different.
From the FAQs
If a model flees from an Adeptus Astartes unit, can an Apothecary use its narthecium to return a model to the unit?
A: No, the narthecium can only be used to return slain models to a unit.
I don't think Fleeing is the same as Dying but Send in the Next Wave says Destroyed Units so I think you are ok.
Trickstick wrote: I think that there is only the option for the power sword in the new codex, not the axe/maul. That could hurt some people's models. I guess you can "counts as" for them at least. I lived through the "sergeants can't have lasguns" apocalypse, this is nothing.
I'm still irked that my Sergeants can't have Lasguns. Also it's bizarre that now they just come with a Laspistol and Frag Grenades. They have to buy/specifically take their Chainswords or Power Swords.
I'm also increasingly confused as to what "Relics" the various named characters have.
What Relic is Creed toting around? His Hellpistols? The power sword? His voice or his Tactical Genius?
Yarrick and Harker are the ones who it feels fairly clear what their Relics are--Harker has Payback and Yarrick has his Power Klaw and Bale Eye. Straken, I guess, it's his Bionic Arm and Pask it's his tank.
I'd just really like some clarification on that part. And the Lasguns for Sergeants. Because I really did enjoy that aspect of playing Marines, where a full squad felt like it was a coherent unit instead of a mishmash of weaponry.
And let's be honest.. so far GW have only done good things. I expect other codexes they release will be excellent in their own ways, meaning AM players will need to ensure they field effective / novel lists.
Trickstick wrote: I think that there is only the option for the power sword in the new codex, not the axe/maul. That could hurt some people's models. I guess you can "counts as" for them at least. I lived through the "sergeants can't have lasguns" apocalypse, this is nothing.
I'm still irked that my Sergeants can't have Lasguns. Also it's bizarre that now they just come with a Laspistol and Frag Grenades. They have to buy/specifically take their Chainswords or Power Swords.
I'm also increasingly confused as to what "Relics" the various named characters have.
What Relic is Creed toting around? His Hellpistols? The power sword? His voice or his Tactical Genius?
Yarrick and Harker are the ones who it feels fairly clear what their Relics are--Harker has Payback and Yarrick has his Power Klaw and Bale Eye. Straken, I guess, it's his Bionic Arm and Pask it's his tank.
I'd just really like some clarification on that part. And the Lasguns for Sergeants. Because I really did enjoy that aspect of playing Marines, where a full squad felt like it was a coherent unit instead of a mishmash of weaponry.
Why does it matter exactly what it is on Creed's person that qualifies as a relic? Like, the point of that bit of text in the relics section is just that you can't give named characters a relic from the list, whether it's because they've got a unique weapon already or just a really nice pocketwatch.
I was thinking about modifications to my list and wondering about some armoured sentinels for flavour then realised the Taurox is faster (8" vs 14"), 1 more strength, 4 more wounds, has twice the number of autocannons can carry 10 models and is exactly the same point cost (40 base)!
Trickstick wrote: I think that there is only the option for the power sword in the new codex, not the axe/maul. That could hurt some people's models. I guess you can "counts as" for them at least. I lived through the "sergeants can't have lasguns" apocalypse, this is nothing.
I'm still irked that my Sergeants can't have Lasguns. Also it's bizarre that now they just come with a Laspistol and Frag Grenades. They have to buy/specifically take their Chainswords or Power Swords.
I'm also increasingly confused as to what "Relics" the various named characters have.
What Relic is Creed toting around? His Hellpistols? The power sword? His voice or his Tactical Genius?
Yarrick and Harker are the ones who it feels fairly clear what their Relics are--Harker has Payback and Yarrick has his Power Klaw and Bale Eye. Straken, I guess, it's his Bionic Arm and Pask it's his tank.
I'd just really like some clarification on that part. And the Lasguns for Sergeants. Because I really did enjoy that aspect of playing Marines, where a full squad felt like it was a coherent unit instead of a mishmash of weaponry.
Why does it matter exactly what it is on Creed's person that qualifies as a relic? Like, the point of that bit of text in the relics section is just that you can't give named characters a relic from the list, whether it's because they've got a unique weapon already or just a really nice pocketwatch.
That's precisely why it matters.
The point is, as you said, to quantify that named characters already have a Relic which is what prevents them from being able to take a Relic. Nothing on Creed suggests "Relic" however. His Power Sword is just a normal Power Sword and he carries around a pair of standard Hot-Shot Laspistols.
Not saying he needs to have a Power Sword that instadeaths Mortarion on a hit roll of 4, 5, or 6--but it would be nice to know what it is on him that prevents him(or any named character from any book that doesn't have an obvious Relic, if I'm going to be frank) from taking a Relic.
Lol just had a thought, Ogryn bodyguard cant be a warlord for the free relic but Imperial Commanders Armoury 1cp only requires Astra Militarum character. You can then give them The dagger of Tu Sakh which allows them and one other <infantry> from the same regiment to set up near the board edge behind enemy lines during your movement phase, Bullgryns are the same regiment.
WatcherZero wrote: Lol just had a thought, Ogryn bodyguard cant be a warlord for the free relic but Imperial Commanders Armoury 1cp only requires Astra Militarum character. You can then give them The dagger of Tu Sakh which allows them and one other <infantry> from the same regiment to set up near the board edge behind enemy lines during your movement phase, Bullgryns are the same regiment.
Also, can't you give The dagger of Tu Sakh to a Tank Commander?
The point is, as you said, to quantify that named characters already have a Relic which is what prevents them from being able to take a Relic. Nothing on Creed suggests "Relic" however. His Power Sword is just a normal Power Sword and he carries around a pair of standard Hot-Shot Laspistols.
Not saying he needs to have a Power Sword that instadeaths Mortarion on a hit roll of 4, 5, or 6--but it would be nice to know what it is on him that prevents him(or any named character from any book that doesn't have an obvious Relic, if I'm going to be frank) from taking a Relic.
But the page outright says that named characters have relics and so can't choose from the list. It even gives Creed as an example. So just assume he's got a really nice pocketwatch or whatever, right?
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WatcherZero wrote: Lol just had a thought, Ogryn bodyguard cant be a warlord for the free relic but Imperial Commanders Armoury 1cp only requires Astra Militarum character. You can then give them The dagger of Tu Sakh which allows them and one other <infantry> from the same regiment to set up near the board edge behind enemy lines during your movement phase, Bullgryns are the same regiment.
Bullgryn don't have a <REGIMENT>. Like, you can't take a Company Commander and says he's MILITARUM AUXILLA to give orders to them. The dagger seems to anticipate this sort of issue because the text tells you what to do if the bearer doesn't have a <REGIMENT> keyword (and I'm not sure to what else this could refer if not things like the Ogryn Bodyguard). It's actually extremely powerful for characters without <REGIMENT> since they can deep strike with literally any INFANTRY unit in your army, not just ASTRA MILITARUM units. So you could bring some Custodes, or just within the codex a Priest or Psyker could deep strike with Crusaders.
The point is, as you said, to quantify that named characters already have a Relic which is what prevents them from being able to take a Relic. Nothing on Creed suggests "Relic" however. His Power Sword is just a normal Power Sword and he carries around a pair of standard Hot-Shot Laspistols.
Not saying he needs to have a Power Sword that instadeaths Mortarion on a hit roll of 4, 5, or 6--but it would be nice to know what it is on him that prevents him(or any named character from any book that doesn't have an obvious Relic, if I'm going to be frank) from taking a Relic.
But the page outright says that named characters have relics and so can't choose from the list. It even gives Creed as an example. So just assume he's got a really nice pocketwatch or whatever, right?
Look, I'm not arguing that he needs to be able to be given them. I'm arguing that it needs to be obvious what is or isn't a Relic. If there's nothing that is obviously a Relic on a named character, then they need to be priced appropriately.
Creed is 70 points.
A Company Commander is 30 points.
Hotshot Laspistols are 1 point each--that puts us at 32 points. A Power Sword is 4 points--that's 36 points.
There's a 34 point difference between the two. Assume maybe 17 points are given over to the unique abilities that Creed has(if taken as Warlord--2 additional CP and Voice of Command being 12" instead of 6" along with an additional Order), that still leaves 17 points of "wut".
Refractor Fields cost nothing so that can't be it.
WatcherZero wrote: Lol just had a thought, Ogryn bodyguard cant be a warlord for the free relic but Imperial Commanders Armoury 1cp only requires Astra Militarum character. You can then give them The dagger of Tu Sakh which allows them and one other <infantry> from the same regiment to set up near the board edge behind enemy lines during your movement phase, Bullgryns are the same regiment.
Bullgryn don't have a <REGIMENT>. Like, you can't take a Company Commander and says he's MILITARUM AUXILLA to give orders to them. The dagger seems to anticipate this sort of issue because the text tells you what to do if the bearer doesn't have a <REGIMENT> keyword (and I'm not sure to what else this could refer if not things like the Ogryn Bodyguard). It's actually extremely powerful for characters without <REGIMENT> since they can deep strike with literally any INFANTRY unit in your army, not just ASTRA MILITARUM units.
Look, I'm not arguing that he needs to be able to be given them. I'm arguing that it needs to be obvious what is or isn't a Relic. If there's nothing that is obviously a Relic on a named character, then they need to be priced appropriately.
Creed is 70 points.
A Company Commander is 30 points.
Hotshot Laspistols are 1 point each--that puts us at 32 points. A Power Sword is 4 points--that's 36 points.
There's a 34 point difference between the two. Assume maybe 17 points are given over to the unique abilities that Creed has(if taken as Warlord--2 additional CP and Voice of Command being 12" instead of 6" along with an additional Order), that still leaves 17 points of "wut".
Refractor Fields cost nothing so that can't be it.
So, first, I still have no idea why it matters to you if he lacks something that is obviously a Relic. That's not going to change his price or let him take a Relic from the armoury. Either he's fairly priced or he's not. But also it just seems nuts to value all his extra stuff at 17 points. Like, the additional order is going to be worth ~15 points by itself -- the whole reason you bring a 30 point Company Commander is to get 2 orders. And 2 CP is easily worth 20 or 30 points.
Bullgryn don't have a <REGIMENT>. Like, you can't take a Company Commander and says he's MILITARUM AUXILLA to give orders to them. The dagger seems to anticipate this sort of issue because the text tells you what to do if the bearer doesn't have a <REGIMENT> keyword (and I'm not sure to what else this could refer if not things like the Ogryn Bodyguard). It's actually extremely powerful for characters without <REGIMENT> since they can deep strike with literally any INFANTRY unit in your army, not just ASTRA MILITARUM units.
It says if the bearer has one.
And...? Ogryn Bodyguards don't have <REGIMENT>. So if you give one the dagger then he can deep strike alongside literally any INFANTRY unit in your army.
Look, I'm not arguing that he needs to be able to be given them. I'm arguing that it needs to be obvious what is or isn't a Relic. If there's nothing that is obviously a Relic on a named character, then they need to be priced appropriately.
Creed is 70 points.
A Company Commander is 30 points.
Hotshot Laspistols are 1 point each--that puts us at 32 points. A Power Sword is 4 points--that's 36 points.
There's a 34 point difference between the two. Assume maybe 17 points are given over to the unique abilities that Creed has(if taken as Warlord--2 additional CP and Voice of Command being 12" instead of 6" along with an additional Order), that still leaves 17 points of "wut".
Refractor Fields cost nothing so that can't be it.
So, first, I still have no idea why it matters to you if he lacks something that is obviously a Relic. That's not going to change his price or let him take a Relic from the armoury. Either he's fairly priced or he's not. But also it just seems nuts to value all his extra stuff at 17 points. Like, the additional order is going to be worth ~15 points by itself -- the whole reason you bring a 30 point Company Commander is to get 2 orders. And 2 CP is easily worth 20 or 30 points.
So you'd be cool with a Company Commander that gets the additional Order Warlord Trait to be 15 points more?
If you can't figure out why it matters--fine. Whatever. I just like to know what's what on a character and why they cost what they do.
Bullgryn don't have a <REGIMENT>. Like, you can't take a Company Commander and says he's MILITARUM AUXILLA to give orders to them. The dagger seems to anticipate this sort of issue because the text tells you what to do if the bearer doesn't have a <REGIMENT> keyword (and I'm not sure to what else this could refer if not things like the Ogryn Bodyguard). It's actually extremely powerful for characters without <REGIMENT> since they can deep strike with literally any INFANTRY unit in your army, not just ASTRA MILITARUM units.
It says if the bearer has one.
And...? Ogryn Bodyguards don't have <REGIMENT>. So if you give one the dagger then he can deep strike alongside literally any INFANTRY unit in your army.
I think at this point, we're done. You seem to be willingly blind to what is being said and just want to gripe about things/argue.
I mean, yes, the extra order warlord trait is probably worth about 15 points. That's why no one will use it, since Grand Strategist is worth far more (because, again, a couple extra CP is easily worth more points than this). I have absolutely no idea why you're talking like I think warlords should have to pay for warlord traits -- I never suggested that Creed should have to pay for the Cadian warlord trait. That you have to make him your warlord to get the CP is a big disadvantage, really, since you'd prefer Grand Strategist.
I think at this point, we're done. You seem to be willingly blind to what is being said and just want to gripe about things/argue.
I am very confused. I have no idea what you were trying to say by pointing out the same thing I pointed out about the dagger -- that it only requires you to deep strike a <REGIMENT> unit if the bearer also has a <REGIMENT> keyword. I have no idea why you interpreteted what I said as just wanting to "gripe about things" or "argue" -- I have no idea what you think we're even arguing about here! And tbh I would have characterized your weird concern about whether Creed has something which is identifiably a Relic as pointless griping, as opposed to my pointing out that he seems fairly priced and it doesn't matter anyway because the rules are clear you can't give him a Relic from the armoury.
Sergeants can take chainswords but commissars can't. That seems a bit odd to me. I hope people are understanding about the counts as chainswords, as my sergeants have a mix of h2h weapons, yet there is no reason in the rules not to take a chainsword. An entrenching tool is a reasonable substitute I think.
Also, Ogryn bodyguards + tank commanders. I am sure it will get FAQed to "infantry characters" but an Ogryn bodyguard will make a Russ warlord a bit less of a liability.
The point is, as you said, to quantify that named characters already have a Relic which is what prevents them from being able to take a Relic. Nothing on Creed suggests "Relic" however. His Power Sword is just a normal Power Sword and he carries around a pair of standard Hot-Shot Laspistols.
Not saying he needs to have a Power Sword that instadeaths Mortarion on a hit roll of 4, 5, or 6--but it would be nice to know what it is on him that prevents him(or any named character from any book that doesn't have an obvious Relic, if I'm going to be frank) from taking a Relic.
But the page outright says that named characters have relics and so can't choose from the list. It even gives Creed as an example. So just assume he's got a really nice pocketwatch or whatever, right?
Look, I'm not arguing that he needs to be able to be given them. I'm arguing that it needs to be obvious what is or isn't a Relic. If there's nothing that is obviously a Relic on a named character, then they need to be priced appropriately.
Creed is 70 points.
A Company Commander is 30 points.
Hotshot Laspistols are 1 point each--that puts us at 32 points. A Power Sword is 4 points--that's 36 points.
There's a 34 point difference between the two. Assume maybe 17 points are given over to the unique abilities that Creed has(if taken as Warlord--2 additional CP and Voice of Command being 12" instead of 6" along with an additional Order), that still leaves 17 points of "wut".
Refractor Fields cost nothing so that can't be it.
WatcherZero wrote: Lol just had a thought, Ogryn bodyguard cant be a warlord for the free relic but Imperial Commanders Armoury 1cp only requires Astra Militarum character. You can then give them The dagger of Tu Sakh which allows them and one other <infantry> from the same regiment to set up near the board edge behind enemy lines during your movement phase, Bullgryns are the same regiment.
Bullgryn don't have a <REGIMENT>. Like, you can't take a Company Commander and says he's MILITARUM AUXILLA to give orders to them. The dagger seems to anticipate this sort of issue because the text tells you what to do if the bearer doesn't have a <REGIMENT> keyword (and I'm not sure to what else this could refer if not things like the Ogryn Bodyguard). It's actually extremely powerful for characters without <REGIMENT> since they can deep strike with literally any INFANTRY unit in your army, not just ASTRA MILITARUM units.
It says if the bearer has one.
Its his cigar.
Waaaay back when Creed was introduced there was a 'relic' Trademark Item which he automatically took - his 'casually smoked cigar'. Creed has been smoking this same cigar for over 10 years, through the ashes of Cadia. It is in fact a relic, and its this relic that grants him his abilities beyond and above that of a company commander.
Trickstick wrote: Sergeants can take chainswords but commissars can't. That seems a bit odd to me.
Chainswords are mass produced. Commissars aren't.
I hope people are understanding about the counts as chainswords, as my sergeants have a mix of h2h weapons, yet there is no reason in the rules not to take a chainsword. An entrenching tool is a reasonable substitute I think.
I'd let you run it as a Power Shovel.
Fear the E-Tool!
Also, Ogryn bodyguards + tank commanders. I am sure it will get FAQed to "infantry characters" but an Ogryn bodyguard will make a Russ warlord a bit less of a liability.
I hope it doesn't get FAQ'd. An Ogryn can still be a bodyguard to a tank damnit!
Waaaay back when Creed was introduced there was a 'relic' Trademark Item which he automatically took - his 'casually smoked cigar'. Creed has been smoking this same cigar for over 10 years, through the ashes of Cadia. It is in fact a relic, and its this relic that grants him his abilities beyond and above that of a company commander.
If that's the case, then we should just have been given "Signature Items" back again. They granted a bonus to LD rolls or Morale(I can't find my Doctrines book right now) and could be anything from an animal mascot to a specially painted lasgun.
According to the Index and don't see anything in the Codex to contradict all Astra Militarum have a regiment just MILITARUM AUXILLA is a pre-defined regiment keyword like Scions, Cadian, Catachan etc... Just like Scions that regiment keyword cant be duplicated so you could never have something able to issue orders sharing the same regiment keyword with Auxilla.
WatcherZero wrote: According to the Index and don't see anything in the Codex to contradict all Astra Militarum have a regiment just MILITARUM AUXILLA is a pre-defined regiment keyword like Scions, Cadian, Catachan etc... Just like Scions that regiment keyword cant be duplicated so you could never have something able to issue orders sharing the same regiment keyword with Auxilla.
I don't see anything in the codex about there being regiments that you can't assign to units, other than Militarum Tempestus. If MILITARUM AUXILLA is a <REGIMENT> then you can give it to Company Commanders. Regardless, the same basic idea with the dagger works for Tech-priests, who clearly don't have a <REGIMENT> keyword, and then also for psykers and commissars depending on if you want to understand them as having <REGIMENT> or not.
I mean, the rules for the dagger obviously anticipate the possibility of it being on a character without <REGIMENT>. So where's this character?
Edit: Also I don't see anything in the Index about MILITARUM AUXILLA being a regiment, and the Index Imperium 2 FAQ is actually explicit that it is not a regiment.
Dionysodorus wrote: I mean, yes, the extra order warlord trait is probably worth about 15 points. That's why no one will use it, since Grand Strategist is worth far more (because, again, a couple extra CP is easily worth more points than this). I have absolutely no idea why you're talking like I think warlords should have to pay for warlord traits -- I never suggested that Creed should have to pay for the Cadian warlord trait. That you have to make him your warlord to get the CP is a big disadvantage, really, since you'd prefer Grand Strategist.
I think at this point, we're done. You seem to be willingly blind to what is being said and just want to gripe about things/argue.
I am very confused. I have no idea what you were trying to say by pointing out the same thing I pointed out about the dagger -- that it only requires you to deep strike a <REGIMENT> unit if the bearer also has a <REGIMENT> keyword. I have no idea why you interpreteted what I said as just wanting to "gripe about things" or "argue" -- I have no idea what you think we're even arguing about here! And tbh I would have characterized your weird concern about whether Creed has something which is identifiably a Relic as pointless griping, as opposed to my pointing out that he seems fairly priced and it doesn't matter anyway because the rules are clear you can't give him a Relic from the armoury.
He is the same guy that derailed the admech forum because he was pissed that skitarii and cult mech were not separated into two books still... Like, seriously he is the only guy that wanted to have a smaller separate book.
It's painfully obvious to anyone else that plays the game that 2cps alone is worth his extra cost considering you need to fill out an entire detachment to get 1-3. He is one dude that also helps fulfill requirements toward a detachment yet he just brings you 2 cps. AND HE has another free order, AND he has double range.
Moral of the story is never try to be rational with Kan.
Edit: Also I don't see anything in the Index about MILITARUM AUXILLA being a regiment, and the Index Imperium 2 FAQ is actually explicit that it is not a regiment.
That FAQ question asked whether it was assignable to <regiment>
I'm not terribly experience playing guard, but I've been playing Scions for quite a while at this point. Looking to expand a bit into guard proper.
Looking at Tallarn as a regiment. I really like it for Demolishers and Punishers. Move and fire heavy sounds good, and the ability to reserve 3 units via the ambush stratagem if you are facing someone with lots of ranged anti-tank is really good. But I've got some questions.
1) I see punishers frequently, but rarely see demolishers. With Tallarn, is the punisher a better choice because of the fixed number of shots?
2) Does outflanking make multi-metla sponsons make sense? On all tanks, or only on Tank Commanders?
3) Do HK missiles make sense on all tanks if outflanking? Only Tank Commanders?
4) Does the ability to move and shoot make Armoured sentinals viable? Plasma Cannon + HK missile, right? Outflank if you need to.
5) If I have a unit of 3 Lemun Russes, and I reserve them that only counts as 1 unit right?
6) When a LR comes on from reserves has it moved 1/2 distance? Full Distance? If I move on only 5" am I at 1/2 distance?
7) Am I going to want a screen for my outflankers, or just bring offense?
Edit: Also I don't see anything in the Index about MILITARUM AUXILLA being a regiment, and the Index Imperium 2 FAQ is actually explicit that it is not a regiment.
That FAQ question asked whether it was assignable to <regiment>
I mean, if you actually read the FAQ in question you'll see that it's asking both -- "Are 'Officio Prefectus' and 'Militarum Auxilla' Regiments? I.e. could I choose for my Company Commander to replace his <REGIMENT> keyword with MILITARUM AUXILLA?"
The answer is: "No." You can't replace <REGIMENT> with MILITARUM AUXILLA because 'Militarum Auxilla' is not a Regiment. The FAQ doesn't really seem to think there's even a difference between asking whether it's a regiment and whether it can replace <REGIMENT>.
tag8833 wrote: 1) I see punishers frequently, but rarely see demolishers. With Tallarn, is the punisher a better choice because of the fixed number of shots?
Punishers have better firepower against t3 and 4, whilst demolishers are better against 5+. Here is a chart (from http://www.3plusplus.net/) that was made when 8th came out, showing the expected wounds from different weapons. Should still apply now, although you have to double the numbers if you move under half speed. Still good for comparing the weapons though.
Spoiler:
tag8833 wrote: 2) Does outflanking make multi-metla sponsons make sense? On all tanks, or only on Tank Commanders?
I like the idea of outflanking meltas, as it gives you a very good way of getting into the 12" range. I'm leaning more towards devil dogs though, as they are slightly cheaper and use up fast attack slots in a brigade. I would rather have my Russes soaking up fire.
tag8833 wrote: 3) Do HK missiles make sense on all tanks if outflanking? Only Tank Commanders?
Not sure. I haven't used them since 5th. They were great on outflanking sentinels back then, as they usually only got one shot and could exploit side armour. Now? Not a clue.
tag8833 wrote: 4) Does the ability to move and shoot make Armoured sentinals viable? Plasma Cannon + HK missile, right? Outflank if you need to.
I was tempted by plasma sentinels until I looked at the rules. They don't get an equivalent to the heat vents, so will die instantly on an overheat. That seems too big a risk on a 6 wound model. I'm sticking to lascannons.
tag8833 wrote: 5) If I have a unit of 3 Lemun Russes, and I reserve them that only counts as 1 unit right?
Yes. They are a single unit until after they are deployed.
tag8833 wrote: 6) When a LR comes on from reserves has it moved 1/2 distance? Full Distance? If I move on only 5" am I at 1/2 distance?
No one knows. It is not defined in the rules and needs FAQing. Definitely one to talk about before the game, as things can get heated discussing rules at point of use, when people are more invested.
tag8833 wrote: 7) Am I going to want a screen for my outflankers, or just bring offense?
Screens are usually a pretty good idea, although it can eat into outflanking spots. It depends if you want a quick hit and run force or something that can last more than a turn or two. For instance, you could take a quad of conscipts, a commissar and a squadron of tanks. Not a bad little outflanking force I guess.
One combo I was considering is a 3xflamer demolisher/punisher and a separate tank commander with las/melta. The outflank will leave you at 9", outside of flamer range. However, with the Tallarn order you could move forward and actually use those flamers. Could work.
tag8833 wrote: I'm not terribly experience playing guard, but I've been playing Scions for quite a while at this point. Looking to expand a bit into guard proper.
Looking at Tallarn as a regiment. I really like it for Demolishers and Punishers. Move and fire heavy sounds good, and the ability to reserve 3 units via the ambush stratagem if you are facing someone with lots of ranged anti-tank is really good. But I've got some questions.
1) I see punishers frequently, but rarely see demolishers. With Tallarn, is the punisher a better choice because of the fixed number of shots?
2) Does outflanking make multi-metla sponsons make sense? On all tanks, or only on Tank Commanders?
3) Do HK missiles make sense on all tanks if outflanking? Only Tank Commanders?
4) Does the ability to move and shoot make Armoured sentinals viable? Plasma Cannon + HK missile, right? Outflank if you need to.
5) If I have a unit of 3 Lemun Russes, and I reserve them that only counts as 1 unit right?
6) When a LR comes on from reserves has it moved 1/2 distance? Full Distance? If I move on only 5" am I at 1/2 distance?
7) Am I going to want a screen for my outflankers, or just bring offense?
1) they are two very different beasts. In general I prefer Punishers since 40 S5 shots also have decent chance to dent tougher targets but Demolisher cant kill hordes.
2) Much better, especially on tank commanders who can order themselves to move extra 6" to get into range.
3) HK-missiles are very good piece of wargear and once again, especially on tank commanders. I always take them so I can do nasty alphas if needed.
4) Scout Sentinels are still better. Its the ability to Scout them forward. This prevents your opponents deepstrikers from getting near. Normally H.Flamer is best on them but Tallarns can use all heavy weapons due not taking -1 to hit with them.
5) They still count as three single units.
6) Umm hmm. Reinforcements say that they "Count as having moved" so I really have no idea.
7)Outflankers can readily position themselves as they want to so screening is not as big of a thing. You could take screening units in your list and position them to outflank if it looks like you'd need them.
and another Battalion detachment (as Keyword >Catachans<
So are evicerators on priests.... again 
