MajorWesJanson wrote: EC and WE codices will come out when the primarchs for those two legions do.
But I think this release puts them really far out compared to what we thought before..
Possibly, but they could just absorb the PA rules into a full codex later like how codex SM 2.0 and supplements absorbed some of the relics and stratagems from the vigils books and codex approved blood havens and crimson fists. Also wouldn't hurt to potentially get people excited for world eaters and buying up Khan and berserkers now, only to have a bunch of whole new units in like 6 months. Not likely, but possible.
I do think we need a second loyalist primarch, or better yet primarch level ghazkull release before another traitor primarch though.
I'd say 99% chance the Repressor goes Legends. Unless they add it to the Codex, which I doubt seeing we have seen the three current vehicles redone with no sign of a Repressor, there is no current model so no need for current rules.
Jidmah wrote: "Great, Death Guard get nothing again."
"Oh, something about Mortarion?"
"Nope, it was the other Lord of Death."
Hard times for those who decided to pick the wrong side of DI to start the game.
I think of all the Chaos Legions, Death Guard have about the least room to complain about releases since 8th edition.
yeah death guard complaining about getting nothing is just silly. only space marines have gotten more then they have this edition most new codices are like 3 new kits, death guard where a dozen
Except death guard was also left out in the Vigilus campaign and Shadow Spear. Basically anyone who picked up Death Guard got exactly 0 updates for their army during 8th. Every single other non-FW army has gotten more.
Jidmah wrote: "Great, Death Guard get nothing again." "Oh, something about Mortarion?" "Nope, it was the other Lord of Death."
Hard times for those who decided to pick the wrong side of DI to start the game.
You'd like a Mortarion alternate?
No, I'd just like to have what every else also got - specialist detachments, access to units that clearly fit DG fluff, relics, warlord traits, stratagems.
Apparently getting a Primarch means the same as getting dropped from support unless you're Ultramarines.
Jidmah wrote: Except death guard was also left out in the Vigilus campaign and Shadow Spear. Basically anyone who picked up Death Guard got exactly 0 updates for their army during 8th. Every single other non-FW army has gotten more.
1k Sons also got no updates for their army in Vigilus, and their model release was considerably thinner when it happened towards the end of 7th
Necrons? No Vigilus update and only a single model all 8th edition.
Tyranids also got no updates in Vigilus, and NO models in 8th
Grey Knights? Nothing in 8th edition at all save their codex, and the codex is horriable.
Blood Angels: they got NOTHING in Vigilus (and we know are getting something soon it would seem patience is rewarded)
Harliquins: they got nothing and it would seem missed the big eldar release so may not be getting anything.
Tau: Likewise nothing this edition, not even rules in Vigilius.
Jidmah wrote: Except death guard was also left out in the Vigilus campaign and Shadow Spear. Basically anyone who picked up Death Guard got exactly 0 updates for their army during 8th. Every single other non-FW army has gotten more.
.
Let's see what necrons got in 8th. Mediocre codex and cryptek with flying cloak. Gee. Dg sure have it bad. Only whole bunch of kits. Singje character is sooo much better than that
An Actual Englishman wrote: The 'supplement level rules' are going to be a single page with warlord trait(s), relics and stratagems (I'd guess 2-3 strats).
There won't be any significant changes to any factions here, more of a Vigilus style detachment for each is likely.
Which is still arguably more than Eldar of each flavour got in their PA.
. I imagine they'll use black legion's vigilus rules as a starting point. it was 1 page of relics (6 total) 1 page of strats (8 strats) 1 page of warlord traits (6 total).
alextroy wrote: I'd say 99% chance the Repressor goes Legends. Unless they add it to the Codex, which I doubt seeing we have seen the three current vehicles redone with no sign of a Repressor, there is no current model so no need for current rules.
...yeah, you are probably right. *tosses the FW book with a sigh*
the vehicles are okay, but with no new rules Or models for me to pick up sisters wise for several months at least, if i even still want to hold onto the army (and im not sure i even want to keep them), im on complete standby.
how long until the Tau, and Ork stuff is down the pipeline? any guesses? i wonder what they'll have in store.
Still I wonder how some people feel it's ok to leave out TS and DG whenever chaos marines get an update, while it's absolutely normal that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves automatically get everything loyalist marines get. Up to the point where getting 10+ primaris releases count as "nothing" for Blood Angels.
how long until the Tau, and Ork stuff is down the pipeline? any guesses? i wonder what they'll have in store.
No word on Tau. Orks are apparently next after BA and Tyranids. Orks vs Space Wolves, allegedly new Ragnar for wolves and possibly something for Orks (but I doubt it). We know nothing of their rules.
Still I wonder how some people feel it's ok to leave out TS and DG whenever chaos marines get an update, while it's absolutely normal that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves automatically get everything loyalist marines get. Up to the point where getting 10+ primaris releases count as "nothing" for Blood Angels.
As long as we dont have new rules for the Primaris it doesnt do too much for us BA players. We have 0 synergi with strats and chapter tactics for them so if you include them you should probably just play as a custom marine chapter painted red. Except the warsuit they dont really help us but the warsuit doesnt even get our chapter tactic since it isnt a dread. Smh
I do have some 30 intercessors, 3 war suits and a few primaris characters waiting for new BA rules to play them with and until then its RG successor for me.
Super happy about new Mephiston, one of my favourite old models and something I was thinking about doing just last month. My first WD was the one with the new thirster and BA vs Eldar battle report, I have loved BAs ever sinceand Mephiston is the best of them. His art pieces and even his old mini, all still superb (just tiny for todays scale). But I hate painting red, so I never managed more than a few models
If they've replaced his sword hilt with a less Chaos-y one and the small devil heads librarians have with skulls I'll still have something to convert myself.
PS: After the flub of CSM 2.0, sure, I'll take anything. Death Guard, too.
Jidmah wrote: Would you prefer just not being allowed to field any of those?
I would gladly take good rules over those models being available. Already have quite a large rostee to choose from so they arent needed. If no intercessor rules I would just use them as tactical marines since I like the look of the standard intercessor. Would have saved me some money on warsuits and phobos Librarian. Primaris Chaplain would still have been bought and converted anyway.
Still I wonder how some people feel it's ok to leave out TS and DG whenever chaos marines get an update, while it's absolutely normal that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves automatically get everything loyalist marines get. Up to the point where getting 10+ primaris releases count as "nothing" for Blood Angels.
What i don't understand is why some players with faction that is one of the better served in 8th ed complain not enough even to level they deliberately lie about it.
Jidmah wrote: Still I wonder how some people feel it's ok to leave out TS and DG whenever chaos marines get an update, while it's absolutely normal that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves automatically get everything loyalist marines get. Up to the point where getting 10+ primaris releases count as "nothing" for Blood Angels.
Try playing the (conveniently forgotten) Deathwatch. Zero access to any of the new stuff, even though unlike all the special snowflakes, recon marines actually fit DW fluff perfectly. Even though GW somehow managed this 'impossible' feat with get you by rules for the first wave of primaris. DW also have all of 1 unit of their own plus 2 characters, unlike 50 DG get, no twin army with the same keywords so you can share buffs and spells freely, no access to some of the best chaff and HQ units in the game, no nothing. But it's ok, it's not like DW in fluff is supposed to have access to everything Imperium and Inquisition have, on top of some stuff even they can't use... Oh wait
Still I wonder how some people feel it's ok to leave out TS and DG whenever chaos marines get an update, while it's absolutely normal that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves automatically get everything loyalist marines get. Up to the point where getting 10+ primaris releases count as "nothing" for Blood Angels.
As long as we dont have new rules for the Primaris it doesnt do too much for us BA players. We have 0 synergi with strats and chapter tactics for them so if you include them you should probably just play as a custom marine chapter painted red. Except the warsuit they dont really help us but the warsuit doesnt even get our chapter tactic since it isnt a dread. Smh
I do have some 30 intercessors, 3 war suits and a few primaris characters waiting for new BA rules to play them with and until then its RG successor for me.
keep in mind, new marine releases being for DA, BA etc. is also a new thing, back in 7th when cataphracti armor etc was given rules, it was, oddly, vanilla marines only. it wasn't until 8th edition the BA/DA etc could take them
Jidmah wrote: Still I wonder how some people feel it's ok to leave out TS and DG whenever chaos marines get an update, while it's absolutely normal that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves automatically get everything loyalist marines get. Up to the point where getting 10+ primaris releases count as "nothing" for Blood Angels.
Try playing the (conveniently forgotten) Deathwatch. Zero access to any of the new stuff, even though unlike all the special snowflakes, recon marines actually fit DW fluff perfectly. Even though GW somehow managed this 'impossible' feat with get you by rules for the first wave of primaris. DW also have all of 1 unit of their own plus 2 characters, unlike 50 DG get, no twin army with the same keywords so you can share buffs and spells freely, no access to some of the best chaff and HQ units in the game, no nothing. But it's ok, it's not like DW in fluff is supposed to have access to everything Imperium and Inquisition have, on top of some stuff even they can't use... Oh wait
I have great news to you: You are actually allowed to field anything with an IMPERIUM keyword in the same army as you Deathwatch, exactly like in the fluff. Including the best chaff unit in the game and the best lords of war in the game. But yeah, "nothing".
I suggest 1) Learning to count. There aren't even 50 distinct death guard models. 2) Learning to read. Chaos Daemons by no means freely share buffs with death guard, and the only Death Guard rule that can affect any nurgle daemons at all is the Daemon Prince aura.
It all looks really good- the chaos sorcerer looks amazing, the Sisters tanks are really cool and I'm loving the Mephiston hints- if he is modelled after that original artwork by Gibbons he will be amazing. They really are knocking it out of the part with these models they just need to spread the love across the factions a bit more. The clam packs they are coming out with really show how they are moving forward with single figure plastics and they are looking great. [Please give me a new Nid clam pack in the near-ish future...]
The Guard players that should feel bad are the Imperial ones. With Marines hugging the spotlight they will be lucky to come out with custom doctrine rules.... which PR showed that may not be that great. Sisters don't care because they are getting their codex.
Death guard will probably be in the same book with Tau: last time we hard of them they were trying to cross the wormhole Tau accidentaly created.
Still I wonder how some people feel it's ok to leave out TS and DG whenever chaos marines get an update, while it's absolutely normal that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves automatically get everything loyalist marines get. Up to the point where getting 10+ primaris releases count as "nothing" for Blood Angels.
As long as we dont have new rules for the Primaris it doesnt do too much for us BA players. We have 0 synergi with strats and chapter tactics for them so if you include them you should probably just play as a custom marine chapter painted red. Except the warsuit they dont really help us but the warsuit doesnt even get our chapter tactic since it isnt a dread. Smh
I do have some 30 intercessors, 3 war suits and a few primaris characters waiting for new BA rules to play them with and until then its RG successor for me.
keep in mind, new marine releases being for DA, BA etc. is also a new thing, back in 7th when cataphracti armor etc was given rules, it was, oddly, vanilla marines only. it wasn't until 8th edition the BA/DA etc could take them
Chaos still don't have rules for cataphractii or tartoros terminators. They just count as normal terminators for us. And if anyone should have the most ancient marks of armor shouldn't it be the most ancient marines?
Hoping the whole "supplement level rules " claim isn't just hyperbole for legions. Probably is if rumors are true.
I'm really keen to see how the next PA supplement plays out - it will indicate how every other faction will fare too. The Eldar supplement has some good stuff in it but is pretty bland overall, which may be because Eldar are already pretty damn competitive. Fingers crossed CSM get a more significant bump, and of course the other lagging factions afterwards.
'Just' a page of strats, and one of relics, powers and traits can turn a faction on its head.
grouchoben wrote: I'm really keen to see how the next PA supplement plays out - it will indicate how every other faction will fare too. The Eldar supplement has some good stuff in it but is pretty bland overall, which may be because Eldar are already pretty damn competitive. Fingers crossed CSM get a more significant bump, and of course the other lagging factions afterwards.
'Just' a page of strats, and one of relics, powers and traits can turn a faction on its head.
Not really.
So long the traits are not fixed for CSM i doubt that this would be enough for most.
Infact, EVEN IF, the stratagems and Relics are good to great, that is allready dead due to herohammer, run into targeted smites and or sniper heavy lists and that 's it. done.
My expectations aren't so lofty. It may well give some of our sub-factions a jab in the arm but it's not going to fix any of the fundamental problems with our book or "turn our faction on its head" if they're not addressing traits. If I get some cool toys to play around with my Word Bearers (and a mirror stratagem for curbstomping smurfs in melee) I'll be happy.
The Emperor's Children and Word Bearer traits are both just so bad I'd hope they both get buffed like how Ynari trait is the EC+ more, or just outright changed to something less situational.
Redemption wrote: Yeah, the Lord of Death moniker is used for Mephiston, he even has a special rule of that name currently.
The model appears to be based on his old 2nd edition art by Mark Gibbons. Someone on the WHC Facebook made this from stills of the teaser:
Spoiler:
Dammit. That's one of my favorite classic pieces of 40k art. I didn't catch the similar parts and if they really are making him in that pose as long as it's not gravis armor then I'll have to get it.
Still I wonder how some people feel it's ok to leave out TS and DG whenever chaos marines get an update, while it's absolutely normal that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves automatically get everything loyalist marines get. Up to the point where getting 10+ primaris releases count as "nothing" for Blood Angels.
As long as we dont have new rules for the Primaris it doesnt do too much for us BA players. We have 0 synergi with strats and chapter tactics for them so if you include them you should probably just play as a custom marine chapter painted red. Except the warsuit they dont really help us but the warsuit doesnt even get our chapter tactic since it isnt a dread. Smh
I do have some 30 intercessors, 3 war suits and a few primaris characters waiting for new BA rules to play them with and until then its RG successor for me.
keep in mind, new marine releases being for DA, BA etc. is also a new thing, back in 7th when cataphracti armor etc was given rules, it was, oddly, vanilla marines only. it wasn't until 8th edition the BA/DA etc could take them
Chaos still don't have rules for cataphractii or tartoros terminators. They just count as normal terminators for us. And if anyone should have the most ancient marks of armor shouldn't it be the most ancient marines?
Hoping the whole "supplement level rules " claim isn't just hyperbole for legions. Probably is if rumors are true.
Chaos aren't going to get Heresy marks of Armour - outside of Deathguard, because they're not chaos models. Fluffwise you could probably argue that the older and more complicated marks that are still around today are the ones that have been treated as relics for the most part and have been well maintained and locked away, rather than used constantly by ad hoc warbands in the Eye of Terror.
Supplement level rules will almost certainly be like the Black Legion ones in Vigilius Ablaze. Relics, warlord traits, strats and tactical objectives. Maybe some new spells given there's a new sorcerer - so think it'd a surprise if that turned out to just be hyperbole.
Doctrines aren't a supplement rule, but a modified version of a codex rule that chaos doesn't get anyway
Still I wonder how some people feel it's ok to leave out TS and DG whenever chaos marines get an update, while it's absolutely normal that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves automatically get everything loyalist marines get. Up to the point where getting 10+ primaris releases count as "nothing" for Blood Angels.
As long as we dont have new rules for the Primaris it doesnt do too much for us BA players. We have 0 synergi with strats and chapter tactics for them so if you include them you should probably just play as a custom marine chapter painted red. Except the warsuit they dont really help us but the warsuit doesnt even get our chapter tactic since it isnt a dread. Smh
I do have some 30 intercessors, 3 war suits and a few primaris characters waiting for new BA rules to play them with and until then its RG successor for me.
keep in mind, new marine releases being for DA, BA etc. is also a new thing, back in 7th when cataphracti armor etc was given rules, it was, oddly, vanilla marines only. it wasn't until 8th edition the BA/DA etc could take them
Chaos still don't have rules for cataphractii or tartoros terminators. They just count as normal terminators for us. And if anyone should have the most ancient marks of armor shouldn't it be the most ancient marines?
Hoping the whole "supplement level rules " claim isn't just hyperbole for legions. Probably is if rumors are true.
Chaos aren't going to get Heresy marks of Armour - outside of Deathguard, because they're not chaos models. Fluffwise you could probably argue that the older and more complicated marks that are still around today are the ones that have been treated as relics for the most part and have been well maintained and locked away, rather than used constantly by ad hoc warbands in the Eye of Terror.
Supplement level rules will almost certainly be like the Black Legion ones in Vigilius Ablaze. Relics, warlord traits, strats and tactical objectives. Maybe some new spells given there's a new sorcerer - so think it'd a surprise if that turned out to just be hyperbole.
Doctrines aren't a supplement rule, but a modified version of a codex rule that chaos doesn't get anyway
If they don't fix legion traits then it isn't "codex supplement tier support".
As far as your explanation on the older marks of terminator armour how would you explain chaos having their own versions of contemptors, sicarans, fellblades, etc.? Chaos can maintain things as well. They're not all frothing maniacs as many loyalists claim.
Legions would need brand new traits, if we are expected to have them apply to vehicles. Second to that, I would hope we get cheaper vehicles in CA to make up for the difference.
I doubt the chaos legions get super doctrines like loyalists. They will most likely save that for chaos codex 3.0.
However if they chose to do so it wouldn’t take much to say “if your army is completely alpha legion, then gain bla bla.
That being said even if they don’t give out super doctrines then 2 pages of good strats, good relics and good psychic powers/prayers (as they should do for word bearers and world eaters) could go a long way to making the legions fun to play with again.
demontalons wrote: I doubt the chaos legions get super doctrines like loyalists. They will most likely save that for chaos codex 3.0.
However if they chose to do so it wouldn’t take much to say “if your army is completely alpha legion, then gain bla bla.
That being said even if they don’t give out super doctrines then 2 pages of good strats, good relics and good psychic powers/prayers (as they should do for word bearers and world eaters) could go a long way to making the legions fun to play with again.
First chaos marine armies perform RAGE BLASTER doctrine, -1ap to heavy
Then they enter BOLT DESTRUCTINATOR doctrine, -1ap to bolted
Finally it's time for MAIM ANNIHILATION STRIKE doctrine, -1ap to melee.
If they don't fix legion traits then it isn't "codex supplement tier support".
As far as your explanation on the older marks of terminator armour how would you explain chaos having their own versions of contemptors, sicarans, fellblades, etc.? Chaos can maintain things as well. They're not all frothing maniacs as many loyalists claim.
The chapter traits in the supplements are the same as the traits in the codex, there's no update there. Just unique strats, relics and warlord traits. Prayers for Word Bearers would be nice, though guess they can get the full range of marked ones already.
If there wasn't an update in the Chaos marine codex, there's probably not going to be an update here.
As for the relic tanks, those are FW units so wouldn't appear in a codex anyway, and let me say an AdMech player I'm only too aware that some 30K models are staying in 30K.
demontalons wrote: I doubt the chaos legions get super doctrines like loyalists. They will most likely save that for chaos codex 3.0.
However if they chose to do so it wouldn’t take much to say “if your army is completely alpha legion, then gain bla bla.
That being said even if they don’t give out super doctrines then 2 pages of good strats, good relics and good psychic powers/prayers (as they should do for word bearers and world eaters) could go a long way to making the legions fun to play with again.
First chaos marine armies perform RAGE BLASTER doctrine, -1ap to heavy
Then they enter BOLT DESTRUCTINATOR doctrine, -1ap to bolted
Finally it's time for MAIM ANNIHILATION STRIKE doctrine, -1ap to melee.
Nah, we are Chaos, we want to roll on a random table to see which bonus we get each round, planning is something for the lapdogs. 3of our 6 options will be CC based, as that's what we like to do most. Yes, Iron Warriors, too.
demontalons wrote: I doubt the chaos legions get super doctrines like loyalists. They will most likely save that for chaos codex 3.0.
However if they chose to do so it wouldn’t take much to say “if your army is completely alpha legion, then gain bla bla.
That being said even if they don’t give out super doctrines then 2 pages of good strats, good relics and good psychic powers/prayers (as they should do for word bearers and world eaters) could go a long way to making the legions fun to play with again.
First chaos marine armies perform RAGE BLASTER doctrine, -1ap to heavy
Then they enter BOLT DESTRUCTINATOR doctrine, -1ap to bolted
Finally it's time for MAIM ANNIHILATION STRIKE doctrine, -1ap to melee.
Nah, we are Chaos, we want to roll on a random table to see which bonus we get each round, planning is something for the lapdogs. 3of our 6 options will be CC based, as that's what we like to do most. Yes, Iron Warriors, too.
I mean 'Be Careful What Your Wish For' is very much on brand for Chaos - there's always the old Daemon warpstorm table that could fill the doctrine gap...
As a Black Templars player, I just wanna give a quick shoutout to the Blood Angels, who despite having a colossal range, not only in 30k, but 40k, too, for getting the only SM release of PA 2, when we haven't had new models in years, and have actually lost minis in the FW stock, get ta feth ya wee sparkly twilight bastards
(only kidding, ur my faves of the 1st founding chapters, don't tell Dorn. Actually, my wallet is pretty glad I won't have to buy any new stuff, then convert it down to classic marine scale)
Jidmah wrote: "Great, Death Guard get nothing again."
"Oh, something about Mortarion?"
"Nope, it was the other Lord of Death."
Hard times for those who decided to pick the wrong side of DI to start the game.
I think of all the Chaos Legions, Death Guard have about the least room to complain about releases since 8th edition.
yeah death guard complaining about getting nothing is just silly. only space marines have gotten more then they have this edition most new codices are like 3 new kits, death guard where a dozen
You know, outside losing their Obliterators, Raptors, their main gimmick not working on basic core units, sure no reason to complain!
Still I wonder how some people feel it's ok to leave out TS and DG whenever chaos marines get an update, while it's absolutely normal that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves automatically get everything loyalist marines get. Up to the point where getting 10+ primaris releases count as "nothing" for Blood Angels.
As long as we dont have new rules for the Primaris it doesnt do too much for us BA players. We have 0 synergi with strats and chapter tactics for them so if you include them you should probably just play as a custom marine chapter painted red. Except the warsuit they dont really help us but the warsuit doesnt even get our chapter tactic since it isnt a dread. Smh
I do have some 30 intercessors, 3 war suits and a few primaris characters waiting for new BA rules to play them with and until then its RG successor for me.
keep in mind, new marine releases being for DA, BA etc. is also a new thing, back in 7th when cataphracti armor etc was given rules, it was, oddly, vanilla marines only. it wasn't until 8th edition the BA/DA etc could take them
Chaos still don't have rules for cataphractii or tartoros terminators. They just count as normal terminators for us. And if anyone should have the most ancient marks of armor shouldn't it be the most ancient marines?
Hoping the whole "supplement level rules " claim isn't just hyperbole for legions. Probably is if rumors are true.
There shouldn't even be separate rules for those Terminators.
demontalons wrote: I doubt the chaos legions get super doctrines like loyalists. They will most likely save that for chaos codex 3.0.
However if they chose to do so it wouldn’t take much to say “if your army is completely alpha legion, then gain bla bla.
That being said even if they don’t give out super doctrines then 2 pages of good strats, good relics and good psychic powers/prayers (as they should do for word bearers and world eaters) could go a long way to making the legions fun to play with again.
First chaos marine armies perform RAGE BLASTER doctrine, -1ap to heavy
Then they enter BOLT DESTRUCTINATOR doctrine, -1ap to bolted
Finally it's time for MAIM ANNIHILATION STRIKE doctrine, -1ap to melee.
Nah, we are Chaos, we want to roll on a random table to see which bonus we get each round, planning is something for the lapdogs. 3of our 6 options will be CC based, as that's what we like to do most. Yes, Iron Warriors, too.
The table in question will have 66 options, and one of them will flat out wipe out the squad and replace them with spawn. Because chaos = randumb, Amirite?
demontalons wrote: I doubt the chaos legions get super doctrines like loyalists. They will most likely save that for chaos codex 3.0.
However if they chose to do so it wouldn’t take much to say “if your army is completely alpha legion, then gain bla bla.
That being said even if they don’t give out super doctrines then 2 pages of good strats, good relics and good psychic powers/prayers (as they should do for word bearers and world eaters) could go a long way to making the legions fun to play with again.
First chaos marine armies perform RAGE BLASTER doctrine, -1ap to heavy
Then they enter BOLT DESTRUCTINATOR doctrine, -1ap to bolted
Finally it's time for MAIM ANNIHILATION STRIKE doctrine, -1ap to melee.
Nah, we are Chaos, we want to roll on a random table to see which bonus we get each round, planning is something for the lapdogs. 3of our 6 options will be CC based, as that's what we like to do most. Yes, Iron Warriors, too.
The table in question will have 66 options, and one of them will flat out wipe out the squad and replace them with spawn. Because chaos = randumb, Amirite?
Hey if that's a whole unit that would be kinda cool to be fair.
demontalons wrote: I doubt the chaos legions get super doctrines like loyalists. They will most likely save that for chaos codex 3.0.
However if they chose to do so it wouldn’t take much to say “if your army is completely alpha legion, then gain bla bla.
That being said even if they don’t give out super doctrines then 2 pages of good strats, good relics and good psychic powers/prayers (as they should do for word bearers and world eaters) could go a long way to making the legions fun to play with again.
First chaos marine armies perform RAGE BLASTER doctrine, -1ap to heavy
Then they enter BOLT DESTRUCTINATOR doctrine, -1ap to bolted
Finally it's time for MAIM ANNIHILATION STRIKE doctrine, -1ap to melee.
Nah, we are Chaos, we want to roll on a random table to see which bonus we get each round, planning is something for the lapdogs. 3of our 6 options will be CC based, as that's what we like to do most. Yes, Iron Warriors, too.
The table in question will have 66 options, and one of them will flat out wipe out the squad and replace them with spawn. Because chaos = randumb, Amirite?
Hey if that's a whole unit that would be kinda cool to be fair.
Not if you need like 10 spawn miniatures, or the squad just dies. That's how it was in earlier editions, iirc.
If your character randomly decided to turn into a spawn, and you don't have a spawn on hand, then you get nothing except a dead character. The Boon table from 6th (?) ed was dumb.
I'm cool with chaos not having rules for them if the loyalists don't.
As far as legion traits go they should apply to vehicles like the loyalist's do. They need to replace the useless ones like wb as well as all the loyalists old chapter tactics were at least good.
I'm guessing what we'll actually get is a reprinting of a lot of stuff from traitor legions with 8th edition rules.
demontalons wrote: I doubt the chaos legions get super doctrines like loyalists. They will most likely save that for chaos codex 3.0.
However if they chose to do so it wouldn’t take much to say “if your army is completely alpha legion, then gain bla bla.
That being said even if they don’t give out super doctrines then 2 pages of good strats, good relics and good psychic powers/prayers (as they should do for word bearers and world eaters) could go a long way to making the legions fun to play with again.
First chaos marine armies perform RAGE BLASTER doctrine, -1ap to heavy
Then they enter BOLT DESTRUCTINATOR doctrine, -1ap to bolted
Finally it's time for MAIM ANNIHILATION STRIKE doctrine, -1ap to melee.
Nah, we are Chaos, we want to roll on a random table to see which bonus we get each round, planning is something for the lapdogs. 3of our 6 options will be CC based, as that's what we like to do most. Yes, Iron Warriors, too.
The table in question will have 66 options, and one of them will flat out wipe out the squad and replace them with spawn. Because chaos = randumb, Amirite?
Hey if that's a whole unit that would be kinda cool to be fair.
Not if you need like 10 spawn miniatures, or the squad just dies. That's how it was in earlier editions, iirc.
If your character randomly decided to turn into a spawn, and you don't have a spawn on hand, then you get nothing except a dead character. The Boon table from 6th (?) ed was dumb.
Still I wonder how some people feel it's ok to leave out TS and DG whenever chaos marines get an update, while it's absolutely normal that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves automatically get everything loyalist marines get. Up to the point where getting 10+ primaris releases count as "nothing" for Blood Angels.
Bro, Dark Angels do not have any of the chaplain rules, nor do they have the doctrines.
Those chapters you mentioned are red headed step children compared to vanilla Marines right now and still waiting on the cheese
They're also not comparable to the other goodies in the supplements for the vanilla marine chapters.
Wow its making me tear up how hard done the solo Marine players are - Chaos or Loyal are compared to every other faction.......
Oh no we only got how many new Primaris models? Chaos is at least getting yet more Marines. Anyone else getting stuff?
Seriously guys it looks like PA is mainly (yet again) about all the many many many flvaours Marines so maybe ease off on the hard done act and think about all the other entire Factions getting little if anything?
It's funny, we're actually in a real good time for 40k, so much content. I actually feel spoiled right now and cannot balance what I want to play and collect, and what I can realistically finish. Too many projects.
Keep the ball rolling.
If they don't fix legion traits then it isn't "codex supplement tier support".
As far as your explanation on the older marks of terminator armour how would you explain chaos having their own versions of contemptors, sicarans, fellblades, etc.? Chaos can maintain things as well. They're not all frothing maniacs as many loyalists claim.
The chapter traits in the supplements are the same as the traits in the codex, there's no update there. Just unique strats, relics and warlord traits. Prayers for Word Bearers would be nice, though guess they can get the full range of marked ones already.
If there wasn't an update in the Chaos marine codex, there's probably not going to be an update here.
As for the relic tanks, those are FW units so wouldn't appear in a codex anyway, and let me say an AdMech player I'm only too aware that some 30K models are staying in 30K.
The concern Chaos players have is that Loyalist traits all now have two parts to them, as opposed to most Chaos traits only having one. And if Chaos traits are passed on to all units like Loyalist ones are, then some Legions need a little something extra: re-rolling Morale tests doesn't apply to Word Bearer vehicles, and getting 6" extra range on spells matters not at all to tanks.
Still I wonder how some people feel it's ok to leave out TS and DG whenever chaos marines get an update, while it's absolutely normal that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves automatically get everything loyalist marines get. Up to the point where getting 10+ primaris releases count as "nothing" for Blood Angels.
Bro, Dark Angels do not have any of the chaplain rules, nor do they have the doctrines.
Those chapters you mentioned are red headed step children compared to vanilla Marines right now and still waiting on the cheese
They're also not comparable to the other goodies in the supplements for the vanilla marine chapters.
Bro, your poor, poor Dark Angels got
- a specialist detachment with warlord trait, relic and stratagems
- vanguard space marines, including six kits and psychic powers
- free weapon upgrades through Codex:SM - four additional kits from Codex: SM
You do realize I'm asking for less than that for DG?
Still I wonder how some people feel it's ok to leave out TS and DG whenever chaos marines get an update, while it's absolutely normal that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves automatically get everything loyalist marines get. Up to the point where getting 10+ primaris releases count as "nothing" for Blood Angels.
Bro, Dark Angels do not have any of the chaplain rules, nor do they have the doctrines.
Those chapters you mentioned are red headed step children compared to vanilla Marines right now and still waiting on the cheese
They're also not comparable to the other goodies in the supplements for the vanilla marine chapters.
Bro, your poor, poor Dark Angels got
- a specialist detachment with warlord trait, relic and stratagems
- vanguard space marines, including six kits and psychic powers
- free weapon upgrades through Codex:SM - four additional kits from Codex: SM
You do realize I'm asking for less than that for DG?
You aren't asking for anything. You're complaining. Unless you think someone at GW is reading your posts.
I'm literally responding to people complaining about me expressing my disappointment that Death Guard apparently no longer are considered a chaos legion.
A fair amount of those are claiming that some loyalist have had it worse because they got slightly less than the faction who got the most updates of all.
Jidmah wrote: I'm literally responding to people complaining about me expressing my disappointment that Death Guard apparently no longer are considered a chaos legion.
A fair amount of those are claiming that some loyalist have had it worse because they got slightly less than the faction who got the most updates of all.
And I've had to read about 2 pages of comments along the lines of "Poor you" "Cry more" "Wa Wa", essentially grown men (presumably) telling other grown men that they're cry babies, like it's some sort of playground. feth me man. It makes me weary sometimes.
If they don't fix legion traits then it isn't "codex supplement tier support".
As far as your explanation on the older marks of terminator armour how would you explain chaos having their own versions of contemptors, sicarans, fellblades, etc.? Chaos can maintain things as well. They're not all frothing maniacs as many loyalists claim.
The chapter traits in the supplements are the same as the traits in the codex, there's no update there. Just unique strats, relics and warlord traits. Prayers for Word Bearers would be nice, though guess they can get the full range of marked ones already.
If there wasn't an update in the Chaos marine codex, there's probably not going to be an update here.
As for the relic tanks, those are FW units so wouldn't appear in a codex anyway, and let me say an AdMech player I'm only too aware that some 30K models are staying in 30K.
The concern Chaos players have is that Loyalist traits all now have two parts to them, as opposed to most Chaos traits only having one. And if Chaos traits are passed on to all units like Loyalist ones are, then some Legions need a little something extra: re-rolling Morale tests doesn't apply to Word Bearer vehicles, and getting 6" extra range on spells matters not at all to tanks.
I get that, but these aren't going to change in this book and the major marine changes didn't happen in the supplements. So when they say it's like a supplement - chances are it'll be like the marine supplements.
I think if we were seeing a make your own warband rule system, it would have been advertised already. It might be possible, but I expect we'll see that in a future book that's looking at Renegades rather than the Legions.
And without that I doubt we'd see the dual system. Plus honestly chaos would possibly benefit more from having God/Legion work as a dual system - so if everything is Khorne it gets the Khorne trait and if there is only one Legion trait within that, you get that too on your marines and helbrutes. But we'll probably need to wait til Armageddon and some kind of Daemonkin for that sort of change.
If they don't fix legion traits then it isn't "codex supplement tier support".
As far as your explanation on the older marks of terminator armour how would you explain chaos having their own versions of contemptors, sicarans, fellblades, etc.? Chaos can maintain things as well. They're not all frothing maniacs as many loyalists claim.
The chapter traits in the supplements are the same as the traits in the codex, there's no update there. Just unique strats, relics and warlord traits. Prayers for Word Bearers would be nice, though guess they can get the full range of marked ones already.
If there wasn't an update in the Chaos marine codex, there's probably not going to be an update here.
As for the relic tanks, those are FW units so wouldn't appear in a codex anyway, and let me say an AdMech player I'm only too aware that some 30K models are staying in 30K.
The concern Chaos players have is that Loyalist traits all now have two parts to them, as opposed to most Chaos traits only having one. And if Chaos traits are passed on to all units like Loyalist ones are, then some Legions need a little something extra: re-rolling Morale tests doesn't apply to Word Bearer vehicles, and getting 6" extra range on spells matters not at all to tanks.
I get that, but these aren't going to change in this book and the major marine changes didn't happen in the supplements. So when they say it's like a supplement - chances are it'll be like the marine supplements.
I think if we were seeing a make your own warband rule system, it would have been advertised already. It might be possible, but I expect we'll see that in a future book that's looking at Renegades rather than the Legions.
And without that I doubt we'd see the dual system. Plus honestly chaos would possibly benefit more from having God/Legion work as a dual system - so if everything is Khorne it gets the Khorne trait and if there is only one Legion trait within that, you get that too on your marines and helbrutes. But we'll probably need to wait til Armageddon and some kind of Daemonkin for that sort of change.
As I've said I doubt csm will get what we need to equal sm in pa2. But nothing would prevent gw from doing that other than selling more books at a later date.
As for basing csm rules on marks/chaos gods, if one of the prime reasons for these rules changes is to add to the character of the legions and make them play more like the fluff suggests then that wouldn't work for all legions. Some legions don't worship chaos like night lords. We had legion rules in 7th that didn't require taking marks so I see no reason we can't have them in 8th.
Jidmah wrote: I'm literally responding to people complaining about me expressing my disappointment that Death Guard apparently no longer are considered a chaos legion.
A fair amount of those are claiming that some loyalist have had it worse because they got slightly less than the faction who got the most updates of all.
The book very evidently is targeting the legions in the chaos space marine codex, as death guard are a separate codex it's afe to say they will be considered a separate entity and hopefully handled in a separate book.
Dudeface wrote: The book very evidently is targeting the legions in the chaos space marine codex, as death guard are a separate codex it's afe to say they will be considered a separate entity and hopefully handled in a separate book.
Considering how they have been forgotten for every other "legions" update, I'm not too hopeful about that.
Dudeface wrote: The book very evidently is targeting the legions in the chaos space marine codex, as death guard are a separate codex it's afe to say they will be considered a separate entity and hopefully handled in a separate book.
Considering how they have been forgotten for every other "legions" update, I'm not too hopeful about that.
They already listed all the factions that will get new rules in PA and DG is clearly there:
Spoiler:
DG and 1KS are now like DA, BA and SW, they're treated as a separate book from their parent codex. Sometimes that's good, sometimes that's bad.
With the amount of legions they are touching on in this book i would not expect much. My guess is each one will get about the black legion treatment from vigilus.
e.g.
No legion trait change (forget about that)
page of strats
page of relics and / or powers
page of WL traits
page of tac obj nonsense
With BT even if they just did that its 28 pages of rules for all 7 of them combined
The first PA book had what about 40 pages of rules? that had a lot of unit reprints and fluff / images so maybe take 5-10 off that.
So i'd say the above is what to expect, 4-5 pages per legion
Phoenix Rising only had 30 pages of actual rules, and 11 of those were (mostly unchanged) reprints from White Dwarf. I'd adjust expectations accordingly.
I was very hopeful for getting a new BT character, or perhaps an updated model. I really need to stop reading the rumor mill stuff..... however if the content BT get's in the Vol2 book is good, perhaps its not a total loss.
On the plus side, my wallet won't be hurting as much this holiday season.
Dudeface wrote: The book very evidently is targeting the legions in the chaos space marine codex, as death guard are a separate codex it's afe to say they will be considered a separate entity and hopefully handled in a separate book.
Considering how they have been forgotten for every other "legions" update, I'm not too hopeful about that.
What other legions updates have the missed? If you're referring to vigilus that was chaos space marines 2.0 and nothing to do with death guard or t.sons.
Their time will come, as will thousand sons in sure.
Does anyone think these Supplement esque legion updates will bring them up speed with loyalists? I'm hoping boosted traits, hopefully mirroring, and that they effect all vehicles
KingCorpus wrote: Does anyone think these Supplement esque legion updates will bring them up speed with loyalists? I'm hoping boosted traits, hopefully mirroring, and that they effect all vehicles
I'd be very surprised if they get that much, I'm expecting something more like Vigilus.
KingCorpus wrote: Does anyone think these Supplement esque legion updates will bring them up speed with loyalists? I'm hoping boosted traits, hopefully mirroring, and that they effect all vehicles
Watch. Vehicles still won't get traits, Cultists will be left at 5 points for reasons, Chaos Marines will still be 13 points, and the Legion rules will still be bad just like the non-updated Black Legion one is.
KingCorpus wrote: Does anyone think these Supplement esque legion updates will bring them up speed with loyalists? I'm hoping boosted traits, hopefully mirroring, and that they effect all vehicles
According to the current rumours: no traits for CSM vehicles, no "doctrines" for CSM, the CSM legions in the book will each get a page of relics, warlord traits and stratagems each. Full stop.
Don't get your hopes up.
Dudeface wrote: The book very evidently is targeting the legions in the chaos space marine codex, as death guard are a separate codex it's afe to say they will be considered a separate entity and hopefully handled in a separate book.
Considering how they have been forgotten for every other "legions" update, I'm not too hopeful about that.
What other legions updates have the missed? If you're referring to vigilus that was chaos space marines 2.0 and nothing to do with death guard or t.sons.
Page 31, 32 and 73 disagree. Death Guard were the second largest legion force on Vigilus and took a major part in wiping out Dontoria. Also, CSM 2.0 is not the same as Vigilus Ablaze.
In addition, Shadowspear. While it was perfectly normal for Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels to add everything from that box to their arsenal, TS and DG had no such luck.
Dudeface wrote: The book very evidently is targeting the legions in the chaos space marine codex, as death guard are a separate codex it's afe to say they will be considered a separate entity and hopefully handled in a separate book.
Considering how they have been forgotten for every other "legions" update, I'm not too hopeful about that.
What other legions updates have the missed? If you're referring to vigilus that was chaos space marines 2.0 and nothing to do with death guard or t.sons.
Page 31, 32 and 73 disagree. Death Guard were the second largest legion force on Vigilus and took a major part in wiping out Dontoria. Also, CSM 2.0 is not the same as Vigilus Ablaze.
In addition, Shadowspear. While it was perfectly normal for Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels to add everything from that box to their arsenal, TS and DG had no such luck.
Dude. Death Guard got a codex of their very own and a whole bloody line of new models, including a freakin' Primarch. All since the release of 8th edition. And that is far more than anyone else got this edition with the exception of Loyalist marines. Whole factions have seen ZILCH aside from a codex. At this point, you're just whining for the sake of whining.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Dude. Death Guard got a codex of their very own and a whole bloody line of new models, including a freakin' Primarch. All since the release of 8th edition. And that is far more than anyone else got this edition with the exception of Loyalist marines.
That was two years ago, and Death Guard lost two thirds of the CSM codex in exchange. They have gotten absolutely nothing in the meantime, unlike almost every other army in the game - even though they are explicitly mentioned in the fluff of the relevant books as one of the major factions. Your argument also falls apart the second you find all other codices with major model releases have not been ignored for these publications. You do understand that I'm not talking about exclusive releases, right? I'm just talking about getting model releases that make perfect sense for the DG to have as well to be added to the codex and getting stuff like specialist detachments when the other legions get them. There is no good reasons for GW to keep skipping DG and TS on these releases, and it's not irrational to ask for an army not to be forgotten.
Whole factions have seen ZILCH aside from a codex.
Yeah, that has been proven to be wrong already, unless you are talking about GK or TS.
At this point, you're just whining for the sake of whining. Welcome to Ignore.
If all your posts consist of this amount of personal attacks for the sole reasons of not having any better arguments, I'm quite happy not never read a response from you ever again.
If all were getting is the vigilus treatment gw should stop calling it "supplement tier ". Is the rumor still that csm won't get the ability to level up sorcerers and dark apostles like loyalists will be able to their librarians and chaplains?
Gadzilla666 wrote: If all were getting is the vigilus treatment gw should stop calling it "supplement tier ". Is the rumor still that csm won't get the ability to level up sorcerers and dark apostles like loyalists will be able to their librarians and chaplains?
I wasn't aware the "level ups" was even remotely confirmed. IMHO if they don't give all chaos armies those, they should at least give them to some specific ones. it'd make perfect sense if word bearers could have better dark apostles and iron warriors better warp smiths, just for example
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Dude. Death Guard got a codex of their very own and a whole bloody line of new models, including a freakin' Primarch. All since the release of 8th edition. And that is far more than anyone else got this edition with the exception of Loyalist marines.
That was two years ago, and Death Guard lost two thirds of the CSM codex in exchange.
They have gotten absolutely nothing in the meantime, unlike almost every other army in the game - even though they are explicitly mentioned in the fluff of the relevant books as one of the major factions.
Your argument also falls apart the second you find all other codices with major model releases have not been ignored for these publications.
You do understand that I'm not talking about exclusive releases, right? I'm just talking about getting model releases that make perfect sense for the DG to have as well to be added to the codex and getting stuff like specialist detachments when the other legions get them.
There is no good reasons for GW to keep skipping DG and TS on these releases, and it's not irrational to ask for an army not to be forgotten.
Whole factions have seen ZILCH aside from a codex.
Yeah, that has been proven to be wrong already, unless you are talking about GK or TS.
At this point, you're just whining for the sake of whining. Welcome to Ignore.
If all your posts consist of this amount of personal attacks for the sole reasons of not having any better arguments, I'm quite happy not never read a response from you ever again.
I want to point out how on point the first part of this post is. Death Guard lost swathes of units they always had for basically zilch to become "unique". At first I was excited but then I realized how much the codex sucks as written.
Jidmah wrote: If all your posts consist of this amount of personal attacks for the sole reasons of not having any better arguments, I'm quite happy not never read a response from you ever again.
Funny, because the only one dropping any in the last two pages is you. As for learning to read, I like how you (again) conveniently forgot GK and DW exist in multiple posts, even after they were pointed out to you several times. Maybe you should actually read those? Oh, and if all you can muster in response to the fact DG got vastly more than anyone else this edition is (utterly laughable and farcical) argument that DW and GK can always ally marines and IG in, thus don't need any updates, then you should just ally the stuff DG ""lost"" (never mind getting much better equivalents, we don't want to spoil the narrative, eh?) and maybe actually look up better arguments or something?
Jidmah wrote: If all your posts consist of this amount of personal attacks for the sole reasons of not having any better arguments, I'm quite happy not never read a response from you ever again.
Funny, because the only one dropping any in the last two pages is you. As for learning to read, I like how you (again) conveniently forgot GK and DW exist in multiple posts, even after they were pointed out to you several times. Maybe you should actually read those? Oh, and if all you can muster in response to the fact DG got vastly more than anyone else this edition is (utterly laughable and farcical) argument that DW and GK can always ally marines and IG in, thus don't need any updates, then you should just ally the stuff DG ""lost"" (never mind getting much better equivalents, we don't want to spoil the narrative, eh?) and maybe actually look up better arguments or something?
Just ally in what Death Guard lost?
So just ally in the Obliterators, Bikers, Raptors, Heldrakes, Havocs, and Maulerfiends I was using? The things that made up a majority of my list before?
No, the Death Guard "release" was fething awful. They lost way more than they gained.
Jidmah wrote: If all your posts consist of this amount of personal attacks for the sole reasons of not having any better arguments, I'm quite happy not never read a response from you ever again.
Funny, because the only one dropping any in the last two pages is you. As for learning to read, I like how you (again) conveniently forgot GK and DW exist in multiple posts, even after they were pointed out to you several times. Maybe you should actually read those? Oh, and if all you can muster in response to the fact DG got vastly more than anyone else this edition is (utterly laughable and farcical) argument that DW and GK can always ally marines and IG in, thus don't need any updates, then you should just ally the stuff DG ""lost"" (never mind getting much better equivalents, we don't want to spoil the narrative, eh?) and maybe actually look up better arguments or something?
Just ally in what Death Guard lost?
So just ally in the Obliterators, Bikers, Raptors, Heldrakes, Havocs, and Maulerfiends I was using? The things that made up a majority of my list before?
No, the Death Guard "release" was fething awful. They lost way more than they gained.
Also "much better equivalents"? Are you high?
it appears to be that way. same quality units and rules isn't absurd as some on these forums make it out to be. but what can we expect of loyalist IoM players? GW has a massive boner for imperial factions, while anyone chaos, or xenos, can go off for all they really care, unless it's the flavor of the month, then all other factions don't matter as much. it'd be great if they gave the same amount of support, even if it's not removing units from codices, as imperial counterparts. it's only fair to expect what loyalists get. but some people it seems want their advantages, while not giving any to anyone else. it's the mark of a WAAC player. insecurity at it's finest.
It's even cooler how the units that did get left behind, like the Lord and Sorcerer, aren't even real Deathguard units because they don't get all the special rules.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's even cooler how the units that did get left behind, like the Lord and Sorcerer, aren't even real Deathguard units because they don't get all the special rules.
That inconsistency is amazing, isn't it? At least with the Legion supplement in 7th, as borked in areas as it was for internal and external balance, made playing the Legion of your choice feel kinda nice again.
Now none of your World Eater HQ units are fighting twice without a Strat and your Children HQs aren't getting a last laugh and your Death Guard HQ dudes only ignore wounds if you choose the RIGHT one.
Jidmah wrote: If all your posts consist of this amount of personal attacks for the sole reasons of not having any better arguments, I'm quite happy not never read a response from you ever again.
Funny, because the only one dropping any in the last two pages is you. As for learning to read, I like how you (again) conveniently forgot GK and DW exist in multiple posts, even after they were pointed out to you several times. Maybe you should actually read those? Oh, and if all you can muster in response to the fact DG got vastly more than anyone else this edition is (utterly laughable and farcical) argument that DW and GK can always ally marines and IG in, thus don't need any updates, then you should just ally the stuff DG ""lost"" (never mind getting much better equivalents, we don't want to spoil the narrative, eh?) and maybe actually look up better arguments or something?
Just ally in what Death Guard lost?
So just ally in the Obliterators, Bikers, Raptors, Heldrakes, Havocs, and Maulerfiends I was using? The things that made up a majority of my list before?
No, the Death Guard "release" was fething awful. They lost way more than they gained.
Also "much better equivalents"? Are you high?
They had to make room for some of the unique stuff, starting fresh from the ground up was likely the best way to do that. I agree the lords etc should have DR but just be a few points higher to reflect it.
Raptors are, fluff wise at least, historically night lords, likewise obliterators are iron warriors. So I can see why those would stand to be removed.
As a legion they didn't really make use of bikes or jump packs, a little snippet from lexicanum:
"The Death Guard tended to be organised into units of foot-slogging infantry, rather than mechanised squads. Mortarion ensured that his men were well-equipped and highly-trained. He also ensured that they could fight in almost any kind of atmosphere, and placed little emphasis on specialised units using jump packs or bikes. The Death Guard did not have dedicated Assault and Tactical Squads."
So the fact they even had Raptors or bikes is because they never were given enough attention, given options they should never have had for the sakes of easily slotting into codex chaos marines.
Jidmah wrote: If all your posts consist of this amount of personal attacks for the sole reasons of not having any better arguments, I'm quite happy not never read a response from you ever again.
Funny, because the only one dropping any in the last two pages is you. As for learning to read, I like how you (again) conveniently forgot GK and DW exist in multiple posts, even after they were pointed out to you several times. Maybe you should actually read those? Oh, and if all you can muster in response to the fact DG got vastly more than anyone else this edition is (utterly laughable and farcical) argument that DW and GK can always ally marines and IG in, thus don't need any updates, then you should just ally the stuff DG ""lost"" (never mind getting much better equivalents, we don't want to spoil the narrative, eh?) and maybe actually look up better arguments or something?
Just ally in what Death Guard lost?
So just ally in the Obliterators, Bikers, Raptors, Heldrakes, Havocs, and Maulerfiends I was using? The things that made up a majority of my list before?
No, the Death Guard "release" was fething awful. They lost way more than they gained.
Also "much better equivalents"? Are you high?
Oblits were actually the most of my fire support as I wanted it in infantry for Death guard. Imagine my delight when for some reason this unit with a disease, wasn't in the death guard codex because they wanted to push other units.
Jidmah wrote: If all your posts consist of this amount of personal attacks for the sole reasons of not having any better arguments, I'm quite happy not never read a response from you ever again.
Funny, because the only one dropping any in the last two pages is you. As for learning to read, I like how you (again) conveniently forgot GK and DW exist in multiple posts, even after they were pointed out to you several times. Maybe you should actually read those? Oh, and if all you can muster in response to the fact DG got vastly more than anyone else this edition is (utterly laughable and farcical) argument that DW and GK can always ally marines and IG in, thus don't need any updates, then you should just ally the stuff DG ""lost"" (never mind getting much better equivalents, we don't want to spoil the narrative, eh?) and maybe actually look up better arguments or something?
Just ally in what Death Guard lost?
So just ally in the Obliterators, Bikers, Raptors, Heldrakes, Havocs, and Maulerfiends I was using? The things that made up a majority of my list before?
No, the Death Guard "release" was fething awful. They lost way more than they gained.
Also "much better equivalents"? Are you high?
Oblits were actually the most of my fire support as I wanted it in infantry for Death guard. Imagine my delight when for some reason this unit with a disease, wasn't in the death guard codex because they wanted to push other units.
The techno-virus is demonic flesh and scrap code, it's not about decay. Genestealers kiss grants a genetic deformity/disease but that wouldn't be relevant either.
While I think on it the first obliterator was created by a daemon of khorne.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's even cooler how the units that did get left behind, like the Lord and Sorcerer, aren't even real Deathguard units because they don't get all the special rules.
That inconsistency is amazing, isn't it? At least with the Legion supplement in 7th, as borked in areas as it was for internal and external balance, made playing the Legion of your choice feel kinda nice again.
Now none of your World Eater HQ units are fighting twice without a Strat and your Children HQs aren't getting a last laugh and your Death Guard HQ dudes only ignore wounds if you choose the RIGHT one.
See, if you just were a non spikey marine that wouldn't have happened.
No, the Death Guard "release" was fething awful. They lost way more than they gained.
Also "much better equivalents"? Are you high?
What..
I have a massive DG army they gained blight units, pox walkers, morty and plague burst crawlers, plague surgeons, several other character units, and entire codex full of rules and strats and a massive revamped range of models!
I like you had loads of nurgle oblits, when i run them i put them in a purge spearhead... they dont benifit much from DG legion traits anyway...
Plus GW have a history of changing armies so you can't use specific units or change them up a bit, if you'v been in this hobby for more than 2 years you should be used to it.
I also have a massive world eaters army and for this kinda DG talk dominating this thread when they have actually had 'DI*K' all in years and this book might have some cool rules is madness.
edit: my apologies, we got a new kharne model!
IF GW suddenly dropped codex World Eaters with a bucket of new kits, new rules, strats, characters but they removed havocs, raptors a bunch of other units and terminators were now called blood slappers i'd take it in a pinch. Know what i'd do if i really wanted to use those units, i'd take a brazen beasts side detachment.
AND (full rant mode)
you can use all those units you love, imagine code DG never existed or the Index... before it did you had the normal codex just use that! Like it's 2ed its fine right? But you wont because you like your blight grenade spam strats, and all the other juciy DG rules. You cannot have everything.
Jidmah wrote: If all your posts consist of this amount of personal attacks for the sole reasons of not having any better arguments, I'm quite happy not never read a response from you ever again.
Funny, because the only one dropping any in the last two pages is you. As for learning to read, I like how you (again) conveniently forgot GK and DW exist in multiple posts, even after they were pointed out to you several times. Maybe you should actually read those?
Funny how you call me out on not reading posts. I explicitly named GK in my very last post, and the reason I didn't name DW is because they actually got a pretty cool battle tank a few months ago.
Oh, and if all you can muster in response to the fact DG got vastly more than anyone else this edition
The "vastly more" is 13 new data sheets and 3 old ones with new models, which is a lot, but in similar in size as other armies with major releases. If you look at relics, warlord traits and stratagems, they actually have "vastly less" than other armies.
is (utterly laughable and farcical) argument that DW and GK can always ally marines and IG in, thus don't need any updates, then you should just ally the stuff DG ""lost"" (never mind getting much better equivalents, we don't want to spoil the narrative, eh?) and maybe actually look up better arguments or something?
1. Misrepresenting my argument. The DW guy was complaining about him not having access to all of the Imperium's stuff, despite having access to it, while claiming that the nurgle faction can freely share buffs, which they can't. I agree that GK suck, but getting a specialist detachment or a box set will not fix them, they need much more than that. Attack the argument, not the person.
2. More personal attacks. Something seems to be triggering you and multiple other people about the very thought of Death Guard gaining anything besides getting forgotten and never updated again. Why is that? The amount of hate in this thread towards Death Guard getting as much as a single stratagem is unreal.
@Dudeface:
I fully agree with you, most stuff lost from CSM actually made sense to lose
- Obliterators and warp talons are just like Khorne Berzerkers or Noise Marines, they are signature units for other legions, so it's perfectly fine for DG not getting them.
- DG don't have havocs in the fluff, there is a quote of Mortarion explaining that he does not believe in supplying infantry with heavy weapons and wants it on vehicles instead.
- Fast units like heldrakes, bikes or jump packs don't match with the grinding advance theme. Why make them faster if you can just send more?
- Warp Smiths kind of have a hard time working when parts of their machines turn into flesh all the time. Which also means no disco lord.
However, some things are really odd to be left out
- The vindicator. You'd think a legion that breakes sieges by advancing on fortresses and constantly shelling them would have access to a tank that does exactly that. The fluff even mentions Mortarion developing PBC on the basis of the vindicator and the predator.
- Masters of Possession are said to create factories to mass-produce daemon engines. DG are doing exactly that.
- Greater Possessed. DG use possessed as a common asset, why don't they get their champions?
- Venom Crawler. It's an insect-like daemon engine with a huge swollen body, how can it not be Death Guard?
- When chaos lords gained access to thunder hammers, DG didn't - despite using the same model.
No, the Death Guard "release" was fething awful. They lost way more than they gained.
Also "much better equivalents"? Are you high?
What..
I have a massive DG army they gained blight units, pox walkers, morty and plague burst crawlers, plague surgeons, several other character units, and entire codex full of rules and strats and a massive revamped range of models!
Mathematically, slayer is right (number of entries gained vs number of entries lost), but I general I agree with that (and the rest of what you posted).
The only exception is stratagems. DG have a total of 14 stratagems, 6 of those are unique to DG, among the other 8 is killshot, switch-a-power, better summoning, relics and chaos boon. If you'd release a codex with this little stratagems today, the gakstorm would be endless. To my knowledge, Assassins are the only ones with less stratagems (10).
Jidmah wrote: If all your posts consist of this amount of personal attacks for the sole reasons of not having any better arguments, I'm quite happy not never read a response from you ever again.
Funny, because the only one dropping any in the last two pages is you. As for learning to read, I like how you (again) conveniently forgot GK and DW exist in multiple posts, even after they were pointed out to you several times. Maybe you should actually read those?
Funny how you call me out on not reading posts. I explicitly named GK in my very last post, and the reason I didn't name DW is because they actually got a pretty cool battle tank a few months ago.
Oh, and if all you can muster in response to the fact DG got vastly more than anyone else this edition
The "vastly more" is 13 new data sheets and 3 old ones with new models, which is a lot, but in similar in size as other armies with major releases. If you look at relics, warlord traits and stratagems, they actually have "vastly less" than other armies.
is (utterly laughable and farcical) argument that DW and GK can always ally marines and IG in, thus don't need any updates, then you should just ally the stuff DG ""lost"" (never mind getting much better equivalents, we don't want to spoil the narrative, eh?) and maybe actually look up better arguments or something?
1. Misrepresenting my argument. The DW guy was complaining about him not having access to all of the Imperium's stuff, despite having access to it, while claiming that the nurgle faction can freely share buffs, which they can't. I agree that GK suck, but getting a specialist detachment or a box set will not fix them, they need much more than that. Attack the argument, not the person.
2. More personal attacks. Something seems to be triggering you and multiple other people about the very thought of Death Guard gaining anything besides getting forgotten and never updated again. Why is that? The amount of hate in this thread towards Death Guard getting as much as a single stratagem is unreal.
@Dudeface:
I fully agree with you, most stuff lost from CSM actually made sense to lose
- Obliterators and warp talons are just like Khorne Berzerkers or Noise Marines, they are signature units for other legions, so it's perfectly fine for DG not getting them.
- DG don't have havocs in the fluff, there is a quote of Mortarion explaining that he does not believe in supplying infantry with heavy weapons and wants it on vehicles instead.
- Fast units like heldrakes, bikes or jump packs don't match with the grinding advance theme. Why make them faster if you can just send more?
- Warp Smiths kind of have a hard time working when parts of their machines turn into flesh all the time. Which also means no disco lord.
However, some things are really odd to be left out
- The vindicator. You'd think a legion that breakes sieges by advancing on fortresses and constantly shelling them would have access to a tank that does exactly that. The fluff even mentions Mortarion developing PBC on the basis of the vindicator and the predator.
- Masters of Possession are said to create factories to mass-produce daemon engines. DG are doing exactly that.
- Greater Possessed. DG use possessed as a common asset, why don't they get their champions?
- Venom Crawler. It's an insect-like daemon engine with a huge swollen body, how can it not be Death Guard?
- When chaos lords gained access to thunder hammers, DG didn't - despite using the same model.
No, the Death Guard "release" was fething awful. They lost way more than they gained.
Also "much better equivalents"? Are you high?
What..
I have a massive DG army they gained blight units, pox walkers, morty and plague burst crawlers, plague surgeons, several other character units, and entire codex full of rules and strats and a massive revamped range of models!
Mathematically, slayer is right (number of entries gained vs number of entries lost), but I general I agree with that (and the rest of what you posted).
The only exception is stratagems. DG have a total of 14 stratagems, 6 of those are unique to DG, among the other 8 is killshot, switch-a-power, better summoning, relics and chaos boon. If you'd release a codex with this little stratagems today, the gakstorm would be endless. To my knowledge, Assassins are the only ones with less stratagems (10).
Sisters of Silence have their "lack of effort" WD Codex with none - could have done a FW inclusive Codex like Custodes were lavished with but nope
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's even cooler how the units that did get left behind, like the Lord and Sorcerer, aren't even real Deathguard units because they don't get all the special rules.
That inconsistency is amazing, isn't it? At least with the Legion supplement in 7th, as borked in areas as it was for internal and external balance, made playing the Legion of your choice feel kinda nice again.
Now none of your World Eater HQ units are fighting twice without a Strat and your Children HQs aren't getting a last laugh and your Death Guard HQ dudes only ignore wounds if you choose the RIGHT one.
See, if you just were a non spikey marine that wouldn't have happened.
Bollocks. The Vigilus Sword Brethren detachment, for example, for some reason decided that only HQs and Company Veterans count as Sword Brethren, leaving out a bunch of other units that, fluff-wise, should have counted, just like any WE that isn't Khârn or a Khorne Berzerker for some reason aren't Khorne Berzerkers despite having Butcher's Nails. It's GW being consistently inconsistent, no need for the constant martyr narrative.
I swear; the people in this community are a collection of all the petulant children who had to also get a toy to keep them from throwing a tantrum even though it was their siblings birthday.
No, the Death Guard "release" was fething awful. They lost way more than they gained.
Also "much better equivalents"? Are you high?
What..
I have a massive DG army they gained blight units, pox walkers, morty and plague burst crawlers, plague surgeons, several other character units, and entire codex full of rules and strats and a massive revamped range of models!
I like you had loads of nurgle oblits, when i run them i put them in a purge spearhead... they dont benifit much from DG legion traits anyway...
Plus GW have a history of changing armies so you can't use specific units or change them up a bit, if you'v been in this hobby for more than 2 years you should be used to it.
I also have a massive world eaters army and for this kinda DG talk dominating this thread when they have actually had 'DI*K' all in years and this book might have some cool rules is madness.
edit: my apologies, we got a new kharne model!
IF GW suddenly dropped codex World Eaters with a bucket of new kits, new rules, strats, characters but they removed havocs, raptors a bunch of other units and terminators were now called blood slappers i'd take it in a pinch. Know what i'd do if i really wanted to use those units, i'd take a brazen beasts side detachment.
AND (full rant mode)
you can use all those units you love, imagine code DG never existed or the Index... before it did you had the normal codex just use that! Like it's 2ed its fine right? But you wont because you like your blight grenade spam strats, and all the other juciy DG rules. You cannot have everything.
They already HAD Poxwalkers, with the only difference is not needing Typhus (but you're still obligated to take him anyway for the buff!), and one of the Terminator units. Then you talk about all these Character models given...but they're all just fething bad. Seriously.
No, the Death Guard "release" was fething awful. They lost way more than they gained.
Also "much better equivalents"? Are you high?
What..
I have a massive DG army they gained blight units, pox walkers, morty and plague burst crawlers, plague surgeons, several other character units, and entire codex full of rules and strats and a massive revamped range of models!
I like you had loads of nurgle oblits, when i run them i put them in a purge spearhead... they dont benifit much from DG legion traits anyway...
Plus GW have a history of changing armies so you can't use specific units or change them up a bit, if you'v been in this hobby for more than 2 years you should be used to it.
I also have a massive world eaters army and for this kinda DG talk dominating this thread when they have actually had 'DI*K' all in years and this book might have some cool rules is madness.
edit: my apologies, we got a new kharne model!
IF GW suddenly dropped codex World Eaters with a bucket of new kits, new rules, strats, characters but they removed havocs, raptors a bunch of other units and terminators were now called blood slappers i'd take it in a pinch. Know what i'd do if i really wanted to use those units, i'd take a brazen beasts side detachment.
AND (full rant mode)
you can use all those units you love, imagine code DG never existed or the Index... before it did you had the normal codex just use that! Like it's 2ed its fine right? But you wont because you like your blight grenade spam strats, and all the other juciy DG rules. You cannot have everything.
They already HAD Poxwalkers, with the only difference is not needing Typhus (but you're still obligated to take him anyway for the buff!), and one of the Terminator units. Then you talk about all these Character models given...but they're all just fething bad. Seriously.
Yea Biologus Putrifier and unit of PMs with 1cp dishing out 10 d6 s4 2dmg 6's to wound do mortals, re-rolling 1's is terrible, he's the worse character since Fabius bile
Jidmah wrote: If all your posts consist of this amount of personal attacks for the sole reasons of not having any better arguments, I'm quite happy not never read a response from you ever again.
Funny, because the only one dropping any in the last two pages is you. As for learning to read, I like how you (again) conveniently forgot GK and DW exist in multiple posts, even after they were pointed out to you several times. Maybe you should actually read those? Oh, and if all you can muster in response to the fact DG got vastly more than anyone else this edition is (utterly laughable and farcical) argument that DW and GK can always ally marines and IG in, thus don't need any updates, then you should just ally the stuff DG ""lost"" (never mind getting much better equivalents, we don't want to spoil the narrative, eh?) and maybe actually look up better arguments or something?
Just ally in what Death Guard lost?
So just ally in the Obliterators, Bikers, Raptors, Heldrakes, Havocs, and Maulerfiends I was using? The things that made up a majority of my list before?
No, the Death Guard "release" was fething awful. They lost way more than they gained.
Also "much better equivalents"? Are you high?
Well if his argument is DW and GK can ally IG then either you factor in DG can ally with everything in chaos or you admit you are dishonest. Factoring in ally with one side but not the other? That's dishonest argument if there ever was. DG has tons of ally options. Ignoring them while claiming it's okay for DW and GK to ally shows you aren't even trying to argue with facts. You are just wanting "me want everything, me speshul!"
They just missed it, because everyone knows DA RED WUNZ GO FASTA!!!
Anyways, any news about actual PA, or rumors?
I mean. the chaos legions are supposed to get "supplement level" buffs, but as long as they don't have traits for tanks, nor any equivalent for combat doctrines-is it enough?
How about BL? they "sort of" have their own, but no trait for a pure BL army.
I really hope either CA19 or PA covers these things, but I am skeptical.
The french rumors directly contradict the "supplement-level" most players envision though.
So it might just be a warlord traits, some relics and stratagems, but no doctrines, changes to legion traits or even legion traits for vehicles.
Jidmah wrote: The french rumors directly contradict the "supplement-level" most players envision though.
So it might just be a warlord traits, some relics and stratagems, but no doctrines, changes to legion traits or even legion traits for vehicles.
in fairness though "relics, strats and warlord traits" arer what we should expect. why should you expect doctrine modifiers if your army doesn't have doctrines? it's like expecting when codex space wolves dropped expecting them to get chapter tactics.
I'm kinda worried over BTs super-doctrine, whatever it may be, now. It'd be weird if BT got a super-doctrine in PA while Chaos got nothing equivalent.
On the other hand, this is an excellent opportunity to make BT mechanically different: there is no reason why BT would use the Codex Astartes doctrines when their entire shtick is that they don't follow the Codex. Dropping Doctrines alltogether for BT and giving them something else would emphasise this, while also making the game more diverse.
Jidmah wrote: The french rumors directly contradict the "supplement-level" most players envision though.
So it might just be a warlord traits, some relics and stratagems, but no doctrines, changes to legion traits or even legion traits for vehicles.
in fairness though "relics, strats and warlord traits" arer what we should expect. why should you expect doctrine modifiers if your army doesn't have doctrines? it's like expecting when codex space wolves dropped expecting them to get chapter tactics.
I'm not expecting anything. A bunch of previous posters clearly have the mindset that they get exactly as much as the loyalists did, which does include some sort of bonus for running a pure army.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm kinda worried over BTs super-doctrine, whatever it may be, now. It'd be weird if BT got a super-doctrine in PA while Chaos got nothing equivalent.
On the other hand, this is an excellent opportunity to make BT mechanically different: there is no reason why BT would use the Codex Astartes doctrines when their entire shtick is that they don't follow the Codex. Dropping Doctrines alltogether for BT and giving them something else would emphasise this, while also making the game more diverse.
Jidmah wrote: If all your posts consist of this amount of personal attacks for the sole reasons of not having any better arguments, I'm quite happy not never read a response from you ever again.
Funny, because the only one dropping any in the last two pages is you. As for learning to read, I like how you (again) conveniently forgot GK and DW exist in multiple posts, even after they were pointed out to you several times. Maybe you should actually read those? Oh, and if all you can muster in response to the fact DG got vastly more than anyone else this edition is (utterly laughable and farcical) argument that DW and GK can always ally marines and IG in, thus don't need any updates, then you should just ally the stuff DG ""lost"" (never mind getting much better equivalents, we don't want to spoil the narrative, eh?) and maybe actually look up better arguments or something?
Just ally in what Death Guard lost?
So just ally in the Obliterators, Bikers, Raptors, Heldrakes, Havocs, and Maulerfiends I was using? The things that made up a majority of my list before?
No, the Death Guard "release" was fething awful. They lost way more than they gained.
Also "much better equivalents"? Are you high?
Well if his argument is DW and GK can ally IG then either you factor in DG can ally with everything in chaos or you admit you are dishonest. Factoring in ally with one side but not the other? That's dishonest argument if there ever was. DG has tons of ally options. Ignoring them while claiming it's okay for DW and GK to ally shows you aren't even trying to argue with facts. You are just wanting "me want everything, me speshul!"
Allies should be compliments, not crutches.
Ergo I do believe there is design issues with Grey Knights and Deathwatch, but at the latter is below mediocre pure.
No, the Death Guard "release" was fething awful. They lost way more than they gained.
Also "much better equivalents"? Are you high?
What..
I have a massive DG army they gained blight units, pox walkers, morty and plague burst crawlers, plague surgeons, several other character units, and entire codex full of rules and strats and a massive revamped range of models!
I like you had loads of nurgle oblits, when i run them i put them in a purge spearhead... they dont benifit much from DG legion traits anyway...
Plus GW have a history of changing armies so you can't use specific units or change them up a bit, if you'v been in this hobby for more than 2 years you should be used to it.
I also have a massive world eaters army and for this kinda DG talk dominating this thread when they have actually had 'DI*K' all in years and this book might have some cool rules is madness.
edit: my apologies, we got a new kharne model!
IF GW suddenly dropped codex World Eaters with a bucket of new kits, new rules, strats, characters but they removed havocs, raptors a bunch of other units and terminators were now called blood slappers i'd take it in a pinch. Know what i'd do if i really wanted to use those units, i'd take a brazen beasts side detachment.
AND (full rant mode)
you can use all those units you love, imagine code DG never existed or the Index... before it did you had the normal codex just use that! Like it's 2ed its fine right? But you wont because you like your blight grenade spam strats, and all the other juciy DG rules. You cannot have everything.
They already HAD Poxwalkers, with the only difference is not needing Typhus (but you're still obligated to take him anyway for the buff!), and one of the Terminator units. Then you talk about all these Character models given...but they're all just fething bad. Seriously.
Yea Biologus Putrifier and unit of PMs with 1cp dishing out 10 d6 s4 2dmg 6's to wound do mortals, re-rolling 1's is terrible, he's the worse character since Fabius bile
Actually yeah he is garbage. Remind me again the cost of everything together including the transport for them all.
I run Primaris a lot and I'm still not scared of that, which is amazing because that should be the preferred target.
Wanna talk to me next how awesome it is to gain a CP unreliably?
Soooooooooo worth losing all the units they've had since 4th edition! White knighting at its finest.
Jidmah wrote: If all your posts consist of this amount of personal attacks for the sole reasons of not having any better arguments, I'm quite happy not never read a response from you ever again.
Funny, because the only one dropping any in the last two pages is you. As for learning to read, I like how you (again) conveniently forgot GK and DW exist in multiple posts, even after they were pointed out to you several times. Maybe you should actually read those? Oh, and if all you can muster in response to the fact DG got vastly more than anyone else this edition is (utterly laughable and farcical) argument that DW and GK can always ally marines and IG in, thus don't need any updates, then you should just ally the stuff DG ""lost"" (never mind getting much better equivalents, we don't want to spoil the narrative, eh?) and maybe actually look up better arguments or something?
Just ally in what Death Guard lost?
So just ally in the Obliterators, Bikers, Raptors, Heldrakes, Havocs, and Maulerfiends I was using? The things that made up a majority of my list before?
No, the Death Guard "release" was fething awful. They lost way more than they gained.
Also "much better equivalents"? Are you high?
Well if his argument is DW and GK can ally IG then either you factor in DG can ally with everything in chaos or you admit you are dishonest. Factoring in ally with one side but not the other? That's dishonest argument if there ever was. DG has tons of ally options. Ignoring them while claiming it's okay for DW and GK to ally shows you aren't even trying to argue with facts. You are just wanting "me want everything, me speshul!"
Allies should be compliments, not crutches.
Ergo I do believe there is design issues with Grey Knights and Deathwatch, but at the latter is below mediocre pure.
No, the Death Guard "release" was fething awful. They lost way more than they gained.
Also "much better equivalents"? Are you high?
What..
I have a massive DG army they gained blight units, pox walkers, morty and plague burst crawlers, plague surgeons, several other character units, and entire codex full of rules and strats and a massive revamped range of models!
I like you had loads of nurgle oblits, when i run them i put them in a purge spearhead... they dont benifit much from DG legion traits anyway...
Plus GW have a history of changing armies so you can't use specific units or change them up a bit, if you'v been in this hobby for more than 2 years you should be used to it.
I also have a massive world eaters army and for this kinda DG talk dominating this thread when they have actually had 'DI*K' all in years and this book might have some cool rules is madness.
edit: my apologies, we got a new kharne model!
IF GW suddenly dropped codex World Eaters with a bucket of new kits, new rules, strats, characters but they removed havocs, raptors a bunch of other units and terminators were now called blood slappers i'd take it in a pinch. Know what i'd do if i really wanted to use those units, i'd take a brazen beasts side detachment.
AND (full rant mode)
you can use all those units you love, imagine code DG never existed or the Index... before it did you had the normal codex just use that! Like it's 2ed its fine right? But you wont because you like your blight grenade spam strats, and all the other juciy DG rules. You cannot have everything.
They already HAD Poxwalkers, with the only difference is not needing Typhus (but you're still obligated to take him anyway for the buff!), and one of the Terminator units. Then you talk about all these Character models given...but they're all just fething bad. Seriously.
Yea Biologus Putrifier and unit of PMs with 1cp dishing out 10 d6 s4 2dmg 6's to wound do mortals, re-rolling 1's is terrible, he's the worse character since Fabius bile
Actually yeah he is garbage. Remind me again the cost of everything together including the transport for them all.
I run Primaris a lot and I'm still not scared of that, which is amazing because that should be the preferred target.
Wanna talk to me next how awesome it is to gain a CP unreliably?
Soooooooooo worth losing all the units they've had since 4th edition! White knighting at its finest.
It's been discussed, mods have said to leave it, stop hurling pointless titles/terms at people. I've made a thread in general for people to vent into instead.
On topic, I agree with the concerns over black templars now, itll be a direct comparison to the legion content in the same book and one of the 2 will likely walk away feeling short changed when it's in direct contrast.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm kinda worried over BTs super-doctrine, whatever it may be, now. It'd be weird if BT got a super-doctrine in PA while Chaos got nothing equivalent.
On the other hand, this is an excellent opportunity to make BT mechanically different: there is no reason why BT would use the Codex Astartes doctrines when their entire shtick is that they don't follow the Codex. Dropping Doctrines alltogether for BT and giving them something else would emphasise this, while also making the game more diverse.
According to the (so far 100% correct) rumours, the BT super-doctrine is going to be: "when in Assault Doctrine, every natural 6 to hit automatically wounds". Same source also said that CSM won't get any doctrine-like mechanic but just a page of WT, relics and strats for each CSM legion in the book. The legion traits won't be touched and still won't affect vehicles.
I hesitate to say "rubbish", because it at least does something unlike WBs Legion Tactic, but man it's not much. Other stuff like the rumored relic letting a unit count as being in assault doctrine could help, and good Stratagems might ameliorate a weak-ish super-doctrine, but man that's weaksauce, especially when as stated it'd be a perfect opportunity to bring Vows back.
They will save the doctrines for the Codex for all the other armies.
But if done right, WT,Relics, and strats can be enough to give the right flavor and power.
Imagine Alpha Legion with the RavenGuard warlord trait allowing a infantry unit and HQ unit to infiltrate, or WorldEaters with a strat that gives +2 to the charge for the whole army for 2/3 CP.
If GW does the same job for the legions as they did for loyalist chapters then it will be a huge buff.
demontalons wrote: They will save the doctrines for the Codex for all the other armies.
But if done right, WT,Relics, and strats can be enough to give the right flavor and power.
Imagine Alpha Legion with the RavenGuard warlord trait allowing a infantry unit and HQ unit to infiltrate, or WorldEaters with a strat that gives +2 to the charge for the whole army for 2/3 CP.
If GW does the same job for the legions as they did for loyalist chapters then it will be a huge buff.
And still does nothing due too still paying spike tax.
People are still under the impression that other factions will get their own supplements and doctrines etc. Maybe we'll see it for Chaos come January (at least from what I've heard in the pipeline), but not a chance for any xenos races. I think we're more likely to see a reboot of the edition in the summer than we are to see supplements for anything not wearing power armour this edition.
I think it's worth noting that the latest tourny victory list I saw was a combined RG/IF army, so eaither the guy was "in error" (ohh let's be realistic, was cheating) or he decided that the benifits gained from running a mixed force outweighed the benifits of a super doctrine
BrianDavion wrote: I think it's worth noting that the latest tourny victory list I saw was a combined RG/IF army, so eaither the guy was "in error" (ohh let's be realistic, was cheating) or he decided that the benifits gained from running a mixed force outweighed the benifits of a super doctrine
OR, it's an actually decision, making soup and pure armies operate on the same level, as intended. To be fair, the RG super-doctrine doesn't sound too hot to me.
BrianDavion wrote: I think it's worth noting that the latest tourny victory list I saw was a combined RG/IF army, so eaither the guy was "in error" (ohh let's be realistic, was cheating) or he decided that the benifits gained from running a mixed force outweighed the benifits of a super doctrine
OR, it's an actually decision, making soup and pure armies operate on the same level, as intended. To be fair, the RG super-doctrine doesn't sound too hot to me.
Maybe but the point is that as you said it's a decision, worth noting given the mass hysterics some people have had about it
The RG Super Doctrine really depends on the game, your chosen tactical approach, and the opponent. If your entire focus of RG is to get everything up front and personal to smash Turn 1 (plus benefit from IF in Dev doctrine), then yes, waiting until Turn 2 to go Tactical doesn't mean anything and you can ignore the super doc. However, if you have a significant reserve and have more emphasis on making use of the Tactical doctrine, it's really good in an environment with lots of characters (knights, TF cannons, buffing characters, etc).
BrianDavion wrote: I think it's worth noting that the latest tourny victory list I saw was a combined RG/IF army, so eaither the guy was "in error" (ohh let's be realistic, was cheating) or he decided that the benifits gained from running a mixed force outweighed the benifits of a super doctrine
OR, it's an actually decision, making soup and pure armies operate on the same level, as intended. To be fair, the RG super-doctrine doesn't sound too hot to me.
Maybe but the point is that as you said it's a decision, worth noting given the mass hysterics some people have had about it
I think people want a "super doctrine" or comparable thing for their chaos legion because they want to have that decision too. Right now it's just "why on earth wouldn't you want to ally in daemons?".
Also, many people play mono-codex anyways, so super doctrine would just mean gaining power for their army.
Darsath wrote: People are still under the impression that other factions will get their own supplements and doctrines etc. Maybe we'll see it for Chaos come January (at least from what I've heard in the pipeline), but not a chance for any xenos races. I think we're more likely to see a reboot of the edition in the summer than we are to see supplements for anything not wearing power armour this edition.
Are you saying that csm may get supplements a month after all the codex legions get new rules in pa2? I doubt that. What csm get in pa2 is all we'll be getting for a while except for ca and that will probably just be points adjustments.
Agreed that it doesn't look like xenos will be getting anything significant from pa judging from what eldar got in pr.
Which is a shame as they need to catch up to the loyalists as well. Even the filthy tau.
Darsath wrote: People are still under the impression that other factions will get their own supplements and doctrines etc. Maybe we'll see it for Chaos come January (at least from what I've heard in the pipeline), but not a chance for any xenos races. I think we're more likely to see a reboot of the edition in the summer than we are to see supplements for anything not wearing power armour this edition.
Potentially a good incdicator will be the nearer and forthcoming Sisters dex - do non Marine armies get all the goodies - or not.
BrianDavion wrote: don't expect them to replace doctrines with something else, BTs are, after all, still codex space marines.
But, they really aren't. Yes, they get looped into the Codex, but they don't follow the codex in the slightest. This would be the time to really enable BT to have their different style stand out. Hell, as it stands, by the book my tac marines in the Crusader Squad are still 13 points last time I checked.
BrianDavion wrote: don't expect them to replace doctrines with something else, BTs are, after all, still codex space marines.
But, they really aren't. Yes, they get looped into the Codex, but they don't follow the codex in the slightest. This would be the time to really enable BT to have their different style stand out. Hell, as it stands, by the book my tac marines in the Crusader Squad are still 13 points last time I checked.
Crusader squads need extra rules instead of just being "oh sure just take both your special and heavy and switch everyone else to Chainswords". It's very lazy and uninspired.
BrianDavion wrote: don't expect them to replace doctrines with something else, BTs are, after all, still codex space marines.
But, they really aren't. Yes, they get looped into the Codex, but they don't follow the codex in the slightest. This would be the time to really enable BT to have their different style stand out. Hell, as it stands, by the book my tac marines in the Crusader Squad are still 13 points last time I checked.
Crusader squads need extra rules instead of just being "oh sure just take both your special and heavy and switch everyone else to Chainswords". It's very lazy and uninspired.
I wouldn't argue against it. There is room for improvement with the current setup.
demontalons wrote: I doubt the chaos legions get super doctrines like loyalists. They will most likely save that for chaos codex 3.0.
However if they chose to do so it wouldn’t take much to say “if your army is completely alpha legion, then gain bla bla.
That being said even if they don’t give out super doctrines then 2 pages of good strats, good relics and good psychic powers/prayers (as they should do for word bearers and world eaters) could go a long way to making the legions fun to play with again.
First chaos marine armies perform RAGE BLASTER doctrine, -1ap to heavy
Then they enter BOLT DESTRUCTINATOR doctrine, -1ap to bolted
Finally it's time for MAIM ANNIHILATION STRIKE doctrine, -1ap to melee.
Nah, we are Chaos, we want to roll on a random table to see which bonus we get each round, planning is something for the lapdogs. 3of our 6 options will be CC based, as that's what we like to do most. Yes, Iron Warriors, too.
The table in question will have 66 options, and one of them will flat out wipe out the squad and replace them with spawn. Because chaos = randumb, Amirite?
On a roll of 66, roll an additional D6. On a roll of 6, the Warp opens up, swallowing both forces, resulting in a Chaos victory!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That's only, what, .5% chance of happening? Totally fluffy and not broken!
Something like that (1:216). Until someone throws a reroll stratagem into the mix.
Warp Score —— Results
11 - The Warp Recedes: you lose 25% of your current force (round up) as it is sucked back into the warp. Add +10 to all future Warp results
12-15 - Wrath of Khorne: Khorne takes his tally of skulls. D3 of your units, chosen by your opponent, suffer D3 Mortal wounds. Add +1 to all future Warp results
16 - Danse Macarbe: Destroy one of your <Infantry> units. Replace the models with an equal number of poxwalkers
21-23 - Minor Warping: Choose one of your units. Remove the unit from the board and place it in the Warp in reserves. On any following turn, you may return the unit to the board at the end of the movement phase, more than 9” from any enemy unit
24-26 - Warp Speed:. Choose D3 of your units. If they advance or charge this turn, you may reroll the results of the advance or charge distance they move.
31 - Tithe of Chaos: you opponent chooses one of your units. That unit only Wounds on 6’s this turn
32 - Minor Gift of Nurgle:. Choose one unit. If the unit would lose any models, roll a D6. On a 3+ do not remove the model; leave it on the board with 1 wound.
33 - Minor Gift of Khorne: Choose one unit. After the unit fights in the fight phase, it may immediately fight again.
34 - Minor Gift of Slaanesh:. Choose one friendly unit and one enemy unit within 6” of each other. Deal the friendly unit D3 Mortal wounds. The enemy unit takes double the number of Mortal Wounds.
35 - Minor Gift of Tzeench: Choose one <Psyker>. That model’s psychic powers cannot be countered this turn.
36 - Minor Gift of Chaos Undivided:. Select one unit. That unit may act twice in each phase this turn.
41-46 - Becalmed:. No effect
51 - Skulls of the Skull Throne:. Your opponent chooses one of your units. That unit is Wounded on a 2+ when hit, and only saves on a 6+. It cannot use invulnerable saves this turn.
52 - Major Gift of Khorne: As per Minor Gift of Khorne, but choose D3 units.
53 - Major Gift of Nurgle:[b] As per Minor Gift of Nurgle, but choose D3 units
54 - [b]Major Gift of Slaaneesh: As Minor Gift of Slaaneesh, but choose D3 units. You may not choose the same enemy unit more than once.
55 - Major Gift of Tzeench: Your <Psyker> units may perform their powers twice this turn without penalty.
56 - Major Gift of Chaos Undivided:. Select a unit that has lost one or more wounds or models. That unit is returned to full strength
61 - Warp Quake: Every unit on the board suffers D6 S5 AP - Dam 1 hits. Subtract 10 from all future Warp Results
62 - Khorne Ascendant:. All <Khorne> units deal +1 Damage this turn
63 - Nurgle’s Blessing:. Place aside a marker for every <Infantry> model slain this turn. At the end of the turn, you may deploy a unit of Poxwalkers containing one model per marker. You may place the unit on the board at a spot of your choosing, more than 9” away from any enemy units.
64 - Slaaneesh’s Kiss:. Any model that misses with an attack or rolls less than it’s maximum number of attacks (on a 2D6, D6 or D3 attack weapon) for this turn (including Overwatch) suffers 1 Mortal wound.
65 - Secrets of Tzeench: Choose a number from 1 to 6 and choose the option “pass” or “fail”. Any dice rolls this turn that result in the number you choose have the result you chose (I.e., either “pass” or “fail”)
66 - The Veil Parts:. Roll a D6. On a result of 6, a rift to the Warp tears open and both forces are sucked into the Warp, resulting in a win for Chaos!
(This is not a serious table, just a stab at something GW might do...)
Darsath wrote: People are still under the impression that other factions will get their own supplements and doctrines etc. Maybe we'll see it for Chaos come January (at least from what I've heard in the pipeline), but not a chance for any xenos races. I think we're more likely to see a reboot of the edition in the summer than we are to see supplements for anything not wearing power armour this edition.
Potentially a good incdicator will be the nearer and forthcoming Sisters dex - do non Marine armies get all the goodies - or not.
As a Sisters player, don't rest your hopes on Sisters getting good rules.
You wanna talk getting screwed over by rules, at least the 2.0 codex and PA weren't WORSE than the baseline.
I'll count myself lucky if SoB aren't suddenly BS 5 with a -2 armor save. (That's a save where when a model is wounded it auto dies and explodes, killing 2 other friendly models.)
Darsath wrote: People are still under the impression that other factions will get their own supplements and doctrines etc. Maybe we'll see it for Chaos come January (at least from what I've heard in the pipeline), but not a chance for any xenos races. I think we're more likely to see a reboot of the edition in the summer than we are to see supplements for anything not wearing power armour this edition.
Potentially a good incdicator will be the nearer and forthcoming Sisters dex - do non Marine armies get all the goodies - or not.
As a Sisters player, don't rest your hopes on Sisters getting good rules.
You wanna talk getting screwed over by rules, at least the 2.0 codex and PA weren't WORSE than the baseline.
I'll count myself lucky if SoB aren't suddenly BS 5 with a -2 armor save. (That's a save where when a model is wounded it auto dies and explodes, killing 2 other friendly models.)
Some people will quite literally never be happy.
'We're getting a whole line of new models as requested for decades? Better find something else to moan about!'
Darsath wrote: People are still under the impression that other factions will get their own supplements and doctrines etc. Maybe we'll see it for Chaos come January (at least from what I've heard in the pipeline), but not a chance for any xenos races. I think we're more likely to see a reboot of the edition in the summer than we are to see supplements for anything not wearing power armour this edition.
Potentially a good incdicator will be the nearer and forthcoming Sisters dex - do non Marine armies get all the goodies - or not.
As a Sisters player, don't rest your hopes on Sisters getting good rules.
You wanna talk getting screwed over by rules, at least the 2.0 codex and PA weren't WORSE than the baseline.
I'll count myself lucky if SoB aren't suddenly BS 5 with a -2 armor save. (That's a save where when a model is wounded it auto dies and explodes, killing 2 other friendly models.)
Some people will quite literally never be happy.
'We're getting a whole line of new models as requested for decades? Better find something else to moan about!'
What good are the models though if the rules are garbage? I'm not paying GW prices for something to sit pretty on my shelf.
Darsath wrote: People are still under the impression that other factions will get their own supplements and doctrines etc. Maybe we'll see it for Chaos come January (at least from what I've heard in the pipeline), but not a chance for any xenos races. I think we're more likely to see a reboot of the edition in the summer than we are to see supplements for anything not wearing power armour this edition.
Potentially a good incdicator will be the nearer and forthcoming Sisters dex - do non Marine armies get all the goodies - or not.
As a Sisters player, don't rest your hopes on Sisters getting good rules.
You wanna talk getting screwed over by rules, at least the 2.0 codex and PA weren't WORSE than the baseline.
I'll count myself lucky if SoB aren't suddenly BS 5 with a -2 armor save. (That's a save where when a model is wounded it auto dies and explodes, killing 2 other friendly models.)
Some people will quite literally never be happy.
'We're getting a whole line of new models as requested for decades? Better find something else to moan about!'
What good are the models though if the rules are garbage? I'm not paying GW prices for something to sit pretty on my shelf.
Sisters aren't anywhere near as bad as made out in the hyperbolic post above. Clearly.
Sisters have good potential - it will be telling how they compare to the vast upgrade of the recent SM Dex and Supplements. If they don't get similar treatment then that will say alot.
Hopefully a character model, maybe a few relics or similar in PA...
Mr Morden wrote: Sisters have good potential - it will be telling how they compare to the vast upgrade of the recent SM Dex and Supplements. If they don't get similar treatment then that will say alot.
Hopefully a character model, maybe a few relics or similar in PA...
I would bet a pretty decent chunk of money that Sisters won't be anywhere close to the Marine Codex and supplements. I'd be surprised if they even have a Doctrine equivalent.
We know the level of PA 'buff' to expect from the first book and the Eldar reactions. It won't take any faction to the level of nu-Marines, apart from, presumably, other marines. Listening to recent podcasts of the various playtesters all but confirms this.
I wouldn't expect or want Sisters to be the same level as nu-Marines because, frankly, nu-Marines are overpowered and should be nerfed. Not to mention that slowly adding other overpowered factions into the mix just pisses off those who are last to the party. If Sisters are on the same level does that make the game much better? Is having 2 factions OP way better than 1? I don't think so. Certainly not for those people who don't play those factions.
An Actual Englishman wrote: We know the level of PA 'buff' to expect from the first book and the Eldar reactions. It won't take any faction to the level of nu-Marines, apart from, presumably, other marines. Listening to recent podcasts of the various playtesters all but confirms this.
I wouldn't expect or want Sisters to be the same level as nu-Marines because, frankly, nu-Marines are overpowered and should be nerfed. Not to mention that slowly adding other overpowered factions into the mix just pisses off those who are last to the party. If Sisters are on the same level does that make the game much better? Is having 2 factions OP way better than 1? I don't think so. Certainly not for those people who don't play those factions.
Which Podcasts? I'd like to listen and see what they are saying.
- Cult troops get +1W
- Basic CSM get pt reduction to rival loyalists
- WL traits, relics and strats in the book will be good improvement and capture all legions in the Dex that have since missed love (WE, AL, EC etc)
- Cult troops get +1W
- Basic CSM get pt reduction to rival loyalists
- WL traits, relics and strats in the book will be good improvement and capture all legions in the Dex that have since missed love (WE, AL, EC etc)
This is from me at my Hexfleet Virules Facebook page. Some jackass took my post and carefully cropped out my page name and references and then spread that all over Discord. I mentioned on the B&C what happened (where I post under the username Lagrath), after which Spikey Bits and Faet reposted the cropped picture and referenced my B&C handle rather than my page, hah.
- Cult troops get +1W
- Basic CSM get pt reduction to rival loyalists
- WL traits, relics and strats in the book will be good improvement and capture all legions in the Dex that have since missed love (WE, AL, EC etc)
This is from me at my Hexfleet Virules Facebook page. Some jackass took my post and carefully cropped out my page name and references and then spread that all over Discord. I mentioned on the B&C what happened (where I post under the username Lagrath), after which Spikey Bits and Faet reposted the cropped picture and referenced my B&C handle rather than my page, hah.
1. Tell them to cite you correctly
2. How reliable is your rumor person?
indeed. looks like the plot is going to be pretty typical. "this world, which you've never heard of before but we assure you is important, is under threat, it's bravely fighting against *insert enemy here* but may not be able to hold on... HURRAH THE SPACE MARINES HAVE COME TO TURN THE TIDE!" but it'll be a good read I'm sure
indeed. looks like the plot is going to be pretty typical. "this world, which you've never heard of before but we assure you is important, is under threat, it's bravely fighting against *insert enemy here* but may not be able to hold on... HURRAH THE SPACE MARINES HAVE COME TO TURN THE TIDE!" but it'll be a good read I'm sure
Sadly I think the plot will be as weak as you say but I liked the portrayal of everyone.
Eh.
I figured the wacky voice was going to be the tech priest, but it turned out just to be a normal guy (as far as imperial cardinals go)
Kinda odd to see the Black Templar and Sister be the rational ones, though at least Bald Inquisitor has calmed the feth down from her earlier meth-fueled panic attacks.
Regarding the voices, I very often hear 40K characters as Balkan or Eastern when I read them (cos I like to). This is actually the first time I've heard a character in one of their trailers, the Sister, have such an accent, instead of the RP English that they go with for 96.4% of their (human) characters. So thumbs up from me to whoever produced this one, well done
indeed. looks like the plot is going to be pretty typical. "this world, which you've never heard of before but we assure you is important, is under threat, it's bravely fighting against *insert enemy here* but may not be able to hold on... HURRAH THE SPACE MARINES HAVE COME TO TURN THE TIDE!" but it'll be a good read I'm sure
You just described every piece of fiction to ever be associated to 40k.
indeed. looks like the plot is going to be pretty typical. "this world, which you've never heard of before but we assure you is important, is under threat, it's bravely fighting against *insert enemy here* but may not be able to hold on... HURRAH THE SPACE MARINES HAVE COME TO TURN THE TIDE!" but it'll be a good read I'm sure
Sadly I think the plot will be as weak as you say but I liked the portrayal of everyone.
keep in mind my summery is cliche but that doesn't nesscarily mean it's bad, that can summerize most major conflcits in 40k. Including Armageddon (which IMHO has been one of the better written warzones GW's done)
JWBS wrote: Regarding the voices, I very often hear 40K characters as Balkan or Eastern when I read them (cos I like to). This is actually the first time I've heard a character in one of their trailers, the Sister, have such an accent, instead of the RP English that they go with for 96.4% of their (human) characters. So thumbs up from me to whoever produced this one, well done
Wrong on all counts, ignore me.
Love that sister cutting off the priest though. Ain't got time for yer gak bro.
Eh.
I figured the wacky voice was going to be the tech priest, but it turned out just to be a normal guy (as far as imperial cardinals go)
Kinda odd to see the Black Templar and Sister be the rational ones, though at least Bald Inquisitor has calmed the feth down from her earlier meth-fueled panic attacks.
Well Marines and Battle Sisters are practical and hardened veterans of war as well as true believers - hysterical civilians are just annoyances once the shooting starts.
Preorder on the 16th (as opposed to the 23rd in the leaked list)
2 week preorder maybe? The leaks were release dates
Possible I suppose given the Sisters of Battle box was meant to be released alongside it. But they might have shifted it to avoid having 2 PA books in 2 weeks, which did seem a bit silly
I'm loving the D-tier voice acting. Visuals show shouting, angry peeps, VAs have a range of "bored secretary telling you the boss is busy" to "old man upset there's no buffet tonight".
I don't mean it sarcastically either, it has exactly the level of quality I remember from those 90's video games GW licensed to SSI, so it makes me nostalgic
well that marine is going in with very bad intel cause there's 3 more traitor legions on that planet or are the heretics planning another Isstvan moment.
nagash42 wrote: well that marine is going in with very bad intel cause there's 3 more traitor legions on that planet or are the heretics planning another Isstvan moment.
Hey it worked the first time.
And if the alpha legion is involved then sneakieness is a high probability.
nagash42 wrote: well that marine is going in with very bad intel cause there's 3 more traitor legions on that planet or are the heretics planning another Isstvan moment.
- Cult troops get +1W
- Basic CSM get pt reduction to rival loyalists
- WL traits, relics and strats in the book will be good improvement and capture all legions in the Dex that have since missed love (WE, AL, EC etc)
I really hope this rumor is wrong, as GW presented it as the CSM "supplement equivalent" to the loyalist marines, but if there is no upgraded traits or equivilant to doctrines, then its very much not going to equalize even with this. meaning CSM either remains stuck as inferior until round 3, and only then try again-or wait for yet ANOTHER book.
Not to mention 2W cult marines makes me somewhat sad, as the rubrics gain very little from it compared to other cult marines (being a plasma bait already), and I'm a tzeentcher.
- Cult troops get +1W
- Basic CSM get pt reduction to rival loyalists
- WL traits, relics and strats in the book will be good improvement and capture all legions in the Dex that have since missed love (WE, AL, EC etc)
I really hope this rumor is wrong, as GW presented it as the CSM "supplement equivalent" to the loyalist marines, but if there is no upgraded traits or equivilant to doctrines, then its very much not going to equalize even with this. meaning CSM either remains stuck as inferior until round 3, and only then try again-or wait for yet ANOTHER book.
Not to mention 2W cult marines makes me somewhat sad, as the rubrics gain very little from it compared to other cult marines (being a plasma bait already), and I'm a tzeentcher.
Didn't Rubrics always used to be 2W marines? Thought they had kept that when they got the new book.
And as always, "supplement equivalent" means like the supplements, what they added compared to the main book - it's just a bit of extra flavour, not a re-balancing to make them equal.
Why does everybody think "supplement level" means doctrines + enhanced traits? Those are both things added by the codex, not the supplement.
All the supplements add are... stratagems, relics, warlord traits... you know, like what Black Legion got in Vigilus.
Expecting anything more than that based on "supplement level" seems really strange.
Rihgu wrote: Why does everybody think "supplement level" means doctrines + enhanced traits? Those are both things added by the codex, not the supplement.
All the supplements add are... stratagems, relics, warlord traits... you know, like what Black Legion got in Vigilus.
Expecting anything more than that based on "supplement level" seems really strange.
Shhhh don’t spoil there fun CSM love to bang on about how hard done to they are.
Rihgu wrote: Why does everybody think "supplement level" means doctrines + enhanced traits? Those are both things added by the codex, not the supplement.
All the supplements add are... stratagems, relics, warlord traits... you know, like what Black Legion got in Vigilus.
Expecting anything more than that based on "supplement level" seems really strange.
How many stratagems, relics and WL traits do the supplements add again?
Don't they also offer bonuses to the doctrines for each chapter?
- Cult troops get +1W
- Basic CSM get pt reduction to rival loyalists
- WL traits, relics and strats in the book will be good improvement and capture all legions in the Dex that have since missed love (WE, AL, EC etc)
I really hope this rumor is wrong, as GW presented it as the CSM "supplement equivalent" to the loyalist marines, but if there is no upgraded traits or equivilant to doctrines, then its very much not going to equalize even with this. meaning CSM either remains stuck as inferior until round 3, and only then try again-or wait for yet ANOTHER book.
Not to mention 2W cult marines makes me somewhat sad, as the rubrics gain very little from it compared to other cult marines (being a plasma bait already), and I'm a tzeentcher.
We have known for quite some time that CSM will not get new Traits neither Doctrines and PA is pretty much all about BT.
Rihgu wrote: Why does everybody think "supplement level" means doctrines + enhanced traits? Those are both things added by the codex, not the supplement.
All the supplements add are... stratagems, relics, warlord traits... you know, like what Black Legion got in Vigilus.
Expecting anything more than that based on "supplement level" seems really strange.
How many stratagems, relics and WL traits do the supplements add again?
Don't they also offer bonuses to the doctrines for each chapter?
I wouldn't be able to tell you that exactly. They do offer bonuses to the doctrines but that's because doctrines were a thing already provided by the codex itself. There's no doctrine for CSM for a supplement to enhance.
Shhhh don’t spoil there fun CSM love to bang on about how hard done to they are.
I'm a Black Legion player myself. I'm not saying we're not hard done I just don't get why people are expecting anything beyond WL traits, stratagems and relics.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Based on that small little datasheet on the Community article, it doesn't look like Helbrecht is getting any changes. That's a shame.
He get a whooping 1 extra Attack i think up to 5 from 4 if i'm not mistaken.
Rihgu wrote: Why does everybody think "supplement level" means doctrines + enhanced traits? Those are both things added by the codex, not the supplement.
All the supplements add are... stratagems, relics, warlord traits... you know, like what Black Legion got in Vigilus.
Expecting anything more than that based on "supplement level" seems really strange.
How many stratagems, relics and WL traits do the supplements add again?
Don't they also offer bonuses to the doctrines for each chapter?
I wouldn't be able to tell you that exactly. They do offer bonuses to the doctrines but that's because doctrines were a thing already provided by the codex itself. There's no doctrine for CSM for a supplement to enhance.
Shhhh don’t spoil there fun CSM love to bang on about how hard done to they are.
I'm a Black Legion player myself. I'm not saying we're not hard done I just don't get why people are expecting anything beyond WL traits, stratagems and relics.
GW have said 'supplement level' rules.
The SM supplements contain vastly more than what PA1 had for Eldar and Dark Eldar players. Like way, waaaay more.
It then presents a host of new rules for the Space Marines – including a codex expansion’s worth of rules for the storied Black Templars Chapter – and loads of awesome new content for the story’s antagonists, the Heretic Astartes.
The french rumour monger (who proved to be extremely reliable) already told us CSM are getting the equivalent of Vigilus for the missing Traitor Legions (no new Traits or equivalent to Doctrines). Only BT will get the full "supplement" ala Iron Hands, Salamanders etc.
And this quote from Warhammer Community nails it.
Can we put an end to these speculations which were born out of some strange interpretations of ONE sentence ?
Rihgu wrote: Why does everybody think "supplement level" means doctrines + enhanced traits? Those are both things added by the codex, not the supplement.
All the supplements add are... stratagems, relics, warlord traits... you know, like what Black Legion got in Vigilus.
Expecting anything more than that based on "supplement level" seems really strange.
How many stratagems, relics and WL traits do the supplements add again?
Don't they also offer bonuses to the doctrines for each chapter?
I wouldn't be able to tell you that exactly. They do offer bonuses to the doctrines but that's because doctrines were a thing already provided by the codex itself. There's no doctrine for CSM for a supplement to enhance.
Shhhh don’t spoil there fun CSM love to bang on about how hard done to they are.
I'm a Black Legion player myself. I'm not saying we're not hard done I just don't get why people are expecting anything beyond WL traits, stratagems and relics.
I play Alpha Legion among others so I understand but CSM complaining reached meme status long ago even when it is warranted it’s hard not to giggle when your remember Dakka having a 200+ thread that the CSM complaining was quarantined too from 5th to 7th edition.
- Cult troops get +1W
- Basic CSM get pt reduction to rival loyalists
- WL traits, relics and strats in the book will be good improvement and capture all legions in the Dex that have since missed love (WE, AL, EC etc)
I really hope this rumor is wrong, as GW presented it as the CSM "supplement equivalent" to the loyalist marines, but if there is no upgraded traits or equivilant to doctrines, then its very much not going to equalize even with this. meaning CSM either remains stuck as inferior until round 3, and only then try again-or wait for yet ANOTHER book.
Not to mention 2W cult marines makes me somewhat sad, as the rubrics gain very little from it compared to other cult marines (being a plasma bait already), and I'm a tzeentcher.
Didn't Rubrics always used to be 2W marines? Thought they had kept that when they got the new book.
And as always, "supplement equivalent" means like the supplements, what they added compared to the main book - it's just a bit of extra flavour, not a re-balancing to make them equal.
Rubrics have never been 2W, at least not from 5th edition and beyond, no idea about earlier.
And the loyalist supplements have the extra trait when you are monodex, that is based around docrtines. if CSM do not have ANY equivilant, we remain in the scenario where the "regular CSM" are miles below the "regular marine", despite being in all logic supposdly superior. (because when you are tempted with power, getting WEAKER doesn't make much sense.)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Based on that small little datasheet on the Community article, it doesn't look like Helbrecht is getting any changes. That's a shame.
He get a whooping 1 extra Attack i think up to 5 from 4 if i'm not mistaken.
Huh. Well can't everything at a first glance right?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Based on that small little datasheet on the Community article, it doesn't look like Helbrecht is getting any changes. That's a shame.
He get a whooping 1 extra Attack i think up to 5 from 4 if i'm not mistaken.
Huh. Well can't everything at a first glance right?
He also got the new better CM aura and they fixed his +1 strength aura to be conga-lineable.
- Cult troops get +1W
- Basic CSM get pt reduction to rival loyalists
- WL traits, relics and strats in the book will be good improvement and capture all legions in the Dex that have since missed love (WE, AL, EC etc)
I really hope this rumor is wrong, as GW presented it as the CSM "supplement equivalent" to the loyalist marines, but if there is no upgraded traits or equivilant to doctrines, then its very much not going to equalize even with this. meaning CSM either remains stuck as inferior until round 3, and only then try again-or wait for yet ANOTHER book.
Not to mention 2W cult marines makes me somewhat sad, as the rubrics gain very little from it compared to other cult marines (being a plasma bait already), and I'm a tzeentcher.
Didn't Rubrics always used to be 2W marines? Thought they had kept that when they got the new book.
And as always, "supplement equivalent" means like the supplements, what they added compared to the main book - it's just a bit of extra flavour, not a re-balancing to make them equal.
Rubrics have never been 2W, at least not from 5th edition and beyond, no idea about earlier.
And the loyalist supplements have the extra trait when you are monodex, that is based around docrtines. if CSM do not have ANY equivilant, we remain in the scenario where the "regular CSM" are miles below the "regular marine", despite being in all logic supposdly superior. (because when you are tempted with power, getting WEAKER doesn't make much sense.)
It does if the people who tempted you were LYING and you're just an IDIOT who thought trusting something called 'THE CHAOS GODS' was a good idea.
BoomWolf wrote: (because when you are tempted with power, getting WEAKER doesn't make much sense.)
Yup, because when you make deal with the devil, he always delivers instead of just scooping up the whole pot at the end of the game, all while laughing how naive idiots totally believed all the promises that were never serious to begin with, eh?
BoomWolf wrote: Rubrics have never been 2W, at least not from 5th edition and beyond, no idea about earlier.
Rubric Marines were 2 wounds in 3rd edition.
I actually thought it fit their background quite well, as they were able to shrug off more small arms fire but higher strength weapons would blast them apart--due to instant death.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I expected the Chapter Master part for consistency. However I thought his aura was the same. Was it on model basis rather than unit basis?
It then presents a host of new rules for the Space Marines – including a codex expansion’s worth of rules for the storied Black Templars Chapter – and loads of awesome new content for the story’s antagonists, the Heretic Astartes.
The french rumour monger (who proved to be extremely reliable) already told us CSM are getting the equivalent of Vigilus for the missing Traitor Legions (no new Traits or equivalent to Doctrines). Only BT will get the full "supplement" ala Iron Hands, Salamanders etc.
And this quote from Warhammer Community nails it.
Can we put an end to these speculations which were born out of some strange interpretations of ONE sentence ?
Good catch there. I'm still going to wait for the reviews before I'm absolutely convinced, but this is still fairly damning. I really hope that there's a bunch of 2.0 codexes coming out in quick succession soon to make up for their mistakes.
It then presents a host of new rules for the Space Marines – including a codex expansion’s worth of rules for the storied Black Templars Chapter – and loads of awesome new content for the story’s antagonists, the Heretic Astartes.
The french rumour monger (who proved to be extremely reliable) already told us CSM are getting the equivalent of Vigilus for the missing Traitor Legions (no new Traits or equivalent to Doctrines). Only BT will get the full "supplement" ala Iron Hands, Salamanders etc.
And this quote from Warhammer Community nails it.
Can we put an end to these speculations which were born out of some strange interpretations of ONE sentence ?
Good catch there. I'm still going to wait for the reviews before I'm absolutely convinced, but this is still fairly damning. I really hope that there's a bunch of 2.0 codexes coming out in quick succession soon to make up for their mistakes.
As much as I would like this (as someone playing CSM, Daemons, DG, and Thousand Sons, who are some of the oldest rules designs and mistakes), I am skeptical this will happen. Especially for CSM who recently got screwed on their 1.5 rather than 2.0 codex.
However, it does the raise the question - what is next in 8th edition? Obviously they will keep pumping out Psychic Awakening for easy dollars and extra high-priced kits here and there.
But what about codexes? We are about to get Sisters, we already got Chaos Knights. Inquisition is about to be in White Dwarf. We've got supplements for SM chapters. Legions are getting a half-hearted option with a PA book rather than full codexes or full supplements (at least it saves money!).
Unless they introduce brand new factions, they are now out of armies that still need codexes. Emperor's Children and World Eaters are obvious options, but sadly that seems less likely given that in a few weeks they will have some extra rules in a PA book. So I am not sure what they will do other than more campaign books...seems like 2.0 codexes is the obvious option.
I'm going to take a guess that we'll see eldar and dark eldar 2.0 sometime within the next year. likely with the independant release of the stuff from the boxed set that came out
Nids and BA are also a fair guess given they are next up on PA3, abd and its pretty close. (before the end of the year iirc)
Traitor guard got a small taste in Blackstone fortress, and it might lead to a full release seeing how FW do not seem to make 40k rules anymore. (seriusly, it's all still index, and very poor writing quality even for that)
Gk seems like a natural fit, also DG. They were from the first 8th, and aged extremely poorly.
Well, Gk were poor before they aged...
TS probably not soon, but in dire need of a rework now that practically every marine chapter out-psyker them.
how does every marine chapter out psyker them? a vanilla marine player should have access to three disiplines, although one would be limited to a single specialist unit only capable of buffing other specialist units. this is about what 1k sons can do, and 1k sons have more psyker units yes?
BoomWolf wrote: (because when you are tempted with power, getting WEAKER doesn't make much sense.)
Yup, because when you make deal with the devil, he always delivers instead of just scooping up the whole pot at the end of the game, all while laughing how naive idiots totally believed all the promises that were never serious to begin with, eh?
If chaos was lying, you'd think marines would wise up to that pretty quickly and realize there's no point. It's pretty obvious that yes, at least in the short term does make you more powerful at the expense of becoming a pawn in the chaos gods schemes.
I don't exactly see loyalist marines ascending to be daemon princes, or summoning armies of daemons to do their bidding, or you know, not aging over 10,000 years. The switcheroo is things like chaos spawn, or the fleshmetal virus, or classic gotchas like "I don't want to die to plague" so nurgle makes you unable to die to them, but you suffer from them for eternity. Or you grow in power but each bit of power you get makes you have even less free will.
The whole point is that it's the old switcheroo, but you gotta have something actually worth having if you want to convince people to sell their soul. You never hear someone selling their soul to be the world's greatest kazoo player after all. If chaos marines were actually weaker than regular marines, the average marine would go "wow those guys are losers, definitely won't make that mistake." and no marines would fall to chaos ever again.
The real dichotomy between loyalist and chaos marine should be that loyalists have better synergy, tactics and teamwork, they're still part of a team and bound by duty, oaths, etc. Chaos marines should be more powerful as individuals, each striving for their own glory and agendas. 1v1 chaos marines should win a fight or battle because individually they're stronger, but lose wars because their leaders are all egotistical jerks focused on their own goals and schemes.
Hopefully, the traits and abilities chaos marines get in the new book reflect that.
As for black Templar, well, I expect them to be good at being mad and punching things. Hopefully crusader squads go up to 2 attacks base to represent them being extra angry but I ain't holding my breath.
BoomWolf wrote: (because when you are tempted with power, getting WEAKER doesn't make much sense.)
Yup, because when you make deal with the devil, he always delivers instead of just scooping up the whole pot at the end of the game, all while laughing how naive idiots totally believed all the promises that were never serious to begin with, eh?
If chaos was lying, you'd think marines would wise up to that pretty quickly and realize there's no point. It's pretty obvious that yes, at least in the short term does make you more powerful at the expense of becoming a pawn in the chaos gods schemes.
I don't exactly see loyalist marines ascending to be daemon princes, or summoning armies of daemons to do their bidding, or you know, not aging over 10,000 years
Imma stop you right there. You don't see the enormous majority of Chaos follows doing any of those things either(except the not aging bit but that's as much up to warp shenanigans as anything else)
Chaos tricks fools and weakling into following it by giving the few competent people that fall just enough power to be something to strive for and entice.
Your average word bearer or iron warrior is a delusional idiot so blinded by the incredibly slight possibility that he may one day get a reward from a chaos god better than a butt tentacle (he won't) that he doesn't realize(or care) that he's just as much cannon fodder as your average cultist.
It's an excellent allegory to american capitalism actually.
The only ones who even might have a reason to be stronger 1v1 against a loyalist counterpart are nurgle followers and that's because nurgle hands out his 'gifts' like horrible rancid candy.
BoomWolf wrote: (because when you are tempted with power, getting WEAKER doesn't make much sense.)
Yup, because when you make deal with the devil, he always delivers instead of just scooping up the whole pot at the end of the game, all while laughing how naive idiots totally believed all the promises that were never serious to begin with, eh?
If chaos was lying, you'd think marines would wise up to that pretty quickly and realize there's no point. It's pretty obvious that yes, at least in the short term does make you more powerful at the expense of becoming a pawn in the chaos gods schemes.
I don't exactly see loyalist marines ascending to be daemon princes, or summoning armies of daemons to do their bidding, or you know, not aging over 10,000 years
Imma stop you right there. You don't see the enormous majority of Chaos follows doing any of those things either(except the not aging bit but that's as much up to warp shenanigans as anything else)
Chaos tricks fools and weakling into following it by giving the few competent people that fall just enough power to be something to strive for and entice.
Your average word bearer or iron warrior is a delusional idiot so blinded by the incredibly slight possibility that he may one day get a reward from a chaos god better than a butt tentacle (he won't) that he doesn't realize(or care) that he's just as much cannon fodder as your average cultist.
Ha!
Well said - especially the Word Bearer part!
Chaos really feels like it’s more of a disease with a mind then anything else.
It really is a bad deal for 99.9999999999999999% of anyone who signs up.
That's one thing I never got. Why can't Chaos just give a ton of mutations to its followers? Why not ascend a legion into Daemon princes? Sure, a huge chunk will devolve into spawns, but the ones that don't will be uber powerful. I can't imagine it would drain the gods of that much power to do so. Chaos must really not want to win that badly.
ERJAK wrote: Your average word bearer or iron warrior is a delusional idiot so blinded by the incredibly slight possibility that he may one day get a reward from a chaos god better than a butt tentacle (he won't) that he doesn't realize(or care) that he's just as much cannon fodder as your average cultist.
Whilst you are correct that your average CSM isn't going around summoning legions of Daemons and becoming a Daemon Prince, the idea that they are naught but oblivious cannon fodder and akin to Cultists in their importance couldn't be further from the truth. They are still Space Marines, whatever their allegiances may be. They are not throwaway troops that their commanders send to the slaughter with wild abandon.
They are as much the elite of the elite as they would be if still Loyalist - moreso in a lot of cases, due to centuries and sometimes millennia of fighting (Warp time shenanigans notwithstanding). To compare them to cultists is to completely mischaracterise them.
ERJAK wrote: It's an excellent allegory to american capitalism actually.
That is a tremendous stretch.
GaroRobe wrote: Why can't Chaos just give a ton of mutations to its followers?
Because "Chaos" doesn't work that way. Chaos isn't a single entity or concept. It can no less give a man a tentacle as "The Imperium" can give a man a gun.
And whilst I am loathe to quote someone like ADB, I have to in this instance:
Spoiler:
ADB wrote:What is Chaos?
This question is at the heart of the book you hold in your hands. On the face of it, the answer is quite simple. Chaos is the dark force that exists in the warp. This force is exemplified by the four Dark Gods of Chaos: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh. The gods want to crush reality and they offer power to those mortals who serve them. This power most often comes in the form of tentacles, supernatural abilities, and a sudden love of grisly trophies and eight-pointed stars. So far, so familiar, yes? And from a certain angle all of that is manifestly true, but it’s not the whole truth. The truth is far, far worse, and that truth is what I wanted to show in Slaves to Darkness.
Chaos is elemental. The forces of the warp are regarded as gods, their servants as daemons, and their powers as sorcery. That is how mortals who know of the warp talk about Chaos, but that is a rationalisation of something much bigger and more terrifying. The forces of Chaos are not gods, in that they are not like people. They have sentience, a strange nightmare sentience patched together from the emotions of mortal races, but they are closer in nature to a cyclone than they are to a person. They are forces of eternal nature; raw and lethal, and wildly destructive. This is not because they choose to be, or because they enjoy it, any more than a flood chooses to sweep away a town, or a tornado flips over cars for kicks. They do what they do because that is what they are. They can be no other way. These powers oppose and antagonise each other like the poles of magnets. Despair and rot claw at the desire for perfection and endless pleasure, war sweeps away subtle power, and so on.
What does that have to do with the Horus Heresy and this book? It is important because it is the reason that the Traitors aren’t made stronger by falling to Chaos. They are made weaker. They are made slaves who can no longer choose their own path. Chaos pulls them apart, divides them, consumes them and sets Horus’ forces against each other. It does not do this because it is a winning strategy, far from it; it does this because it can’t help it. The great powers in the warp, the four that are called gods, can come together and apply their power to a single end, but this can only be temporary. As soon as they align they begin to split. And because they are elemental forces they do this messily, and with all the care of an earthquake.
But why don’t Horus and his followers simply choose not to be swayed by these forces? Why don’t they just take the good bits – the special powers – but stay focused and united in their goals? Because once Chaos has its claws in them, they have no choice. Once an individual has let Chaos take hold of them, their thoughts and emotions begin to resonate and amplify in harmony with the great powers. Other ways of seeing events wither in their perception. The manifest powers of Chaos become a release that can only be accessed by falling deeper into their embrace. Characters fall to Chaos, but they spiral as they fall. They try to escape, but their every choice now only takes them deeper. There is no way out for Horus and those that follow him, they are slaves and doomed through their own choices to fall apart and on each other with murder and treachery.
Once Chaos has hold of a mortal it enables the emotions that drove it into its arms, and feeds them in turn, so that they grow all-consuming and circular. Resentment becomes rage, becomes violence. Pride becomes arrogance. Knowledge becomes blindness to truth. And even if the soul that has fallen fights their fate, they still fall. To fall to Chaos is not to bow to the Chaos Gods, in fact it does not require that you even know that the Dark Gods exist. To rephrase the words hissed by the daemon Samos in the first Horus Heresy novel, Horus Rising: ‘Chaos all around you… It is the person beside you… It is you…’ The elemental power of the Chaos gods comes from the emotions of all sentient beings. Khorne does not exist because people worship it as a god of blood and war; Khorne exists because sentient creatures feel anger and rage, and want to destroy and kill and see their enemies broken. It does not matter to Tzeentch if a mortal who plots for power or hungers for knowledge does so in its name. The emotion and thought is enough to keep the cyclone turning.
That is what Chaos is, it is every weakness given power and set loose against itself without beginning and without end. That is the path that Horus, Lorgar and the first heretics set themselves on when they embraced Chaos. That is, if you like, the point of this book – to show that Horus and those that led him and followed him into darkness have become slaves to forces that they cannot control, bound by the chains of their own natures.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Because "Chaos" doesn't work that way. Chaos isn't a single entity or concept. It can no less give a man a tentacle as "The Imperium" can give a man a gun.
And whilst I am loathe to quote someone like ADB, I have to in this instance:
Spoiler:
ADB wrote:What is Chaos?
This question is at the heart of the book you hold in your hands. On the face of it, the answer is quite simple. Chaos is the dark force that exists in the warp. This force is exemplified by the four Dark Gods of Chaos: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh. The gods want to crush reality and they offer power to those mortals who serve them. This power most often comes in the form of tentacles, supernatural abilities, and a sudden love of grisly trophies and eight-pointed stars. So far, so familiar, yes? And from a certain angle all of that is manifestly true, but it’s not the whole truth. The truth is far, far worse, and that truth is what I wanted to show in Slaves to Darkness.
Chaos is elemental. The forces of the warp are regarded as gods, their servants as daemons, and their powers as sorcery. That is how mortals who know of the warp talk about Chaos, but that is a rationalisation of something much bigger and more terrifying. The forces of Chaos are not gods, in that they are not like people. They have sentience, a strange nightmare sentience patched together from the emotions of mortal races, but they are closer in nature to a cyclone than they are to a person. They are forces of eternal nature; raw and lethal, and wildly destructive. This is not because they choose to be, or because they enjoy it, any more than a flood chooses to sweep away a town, or a tornado flips over cars for kicks. They do what they do because that is what they are. They can be no other way. These powers oppose and antagonise each other like the poles of magnets. Despair and rot claw at the desire for perfection and endless pleasure, war sweeps away subtle power, and so on.
What does that have to do with the Horus Heresy and this book? It is important because it is the reason that the Traitors aren’t made stronger by falling to Chaos. They are made weaker. They are made slaves who can no longer choose their own path. Chaos pulls them apart, divides them, consumes them and sets Horus’ forces against each other. It does not do this because it is a winning strategy, far from it; it does this because it can’t help it. The great powers in the warp, the four that are called gods, can come together and apply their power to a single end, but this can only be temporary. As soon as they align they begin to split. And because they are elemental forces they do this messily, and with all the care of an earthquake.
But why don’t Horus and his followers simply choose not to be swayed by these forces? Why don’t they just take the good bits – the special powers – but stay focused and united in their goals? Because once Chaos has its claws in them, they have no choice. Once an individual has let Chaos take hold of them, their thoughts and emotions begin to resonate and amplify in harmony with the great powers. Other ways of seeing events wither in their perception. The manifest powers of Chaos become a release that can only be accessed by falling deeper into their embrace. Characters fall to Chaos, but they spiral as they fall. They try to escape, but their every choice now only takes them deeper. There is no way out for Horus and those that follow him, they are slaves and doomed through their own choices to fall apart and on each other with murder and treachery.
Once Chaos has hold of a mortal it enables the emotions that drove it into its arms, and feeds them in turn, so that they grow all-consuming and circular. Resentment becomes rage, becomes violence. Pride becomes arrogance. Knowledge becomes blindness to truth. And even if the soul that has fallen fights their fate, they still fall. To fall to Chaos is not to bow to the Chaos Gods, in fact it does not require that you even know that the Dark Gods exist. To rephrase the words hissed by the daemon Samos in the first Horus Heresy novel, Horus Rising: ‘Chaos all around you… It is the person beside you… It is you…’ The elemental power of the Chaos gods comes from the emotions of all sentient beings. Khorne does not exist because people worship it as a god of blood and war; Khorne exists because sentient creatures feel anger and rage, and want to destroy and kill and see their enemies broken. It does not matter to Tzeentch if a mortal who plots for power or hungers for knowledge does so in its name. The emotion and thought is enough to keep the cyclone turning.
That is what Chaos is, it is every weakness given power and set loose against itself without beginning and without end. That is the path that Horus, Lorgar and the first heretics set themselves on when they embraced Chaos. That is, if you like, the point of this book – to show that Horus and those that led him and followed him into darkness have become slaves to forces that they cannot control, bound by the chains of their own natures.
See as much as I like the Forces of Chaos, that makes the Marines that chose to follow it sound all the more like blithering idiots. Particularly those Traitors that weren't Slaves to Darkness at first but eventually became them. Because before they accepted the embrace of Chaos they were watching those that had crumble and fall to madness. Heck that makes all the Marines that fell after even stupider than them, because they had fought them and seen what had become of them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Because "Chaos" doesn't work that way. Chaos isn't a single entity or concept. It can no less give a man a tentacle as "The Imperium" can give a man a gun.
And whilst I am loathe to quote someone like ADB, I have to in this instance:
Spoiler:
ADB wrote:What is Chaos?
This question is at the heart of the book you hold in your hands. On the face of it, the answer is quite simple. Chaos is the dark force that exists in the warp. This force is exemplified by the four Dark Gods of Chaos: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh. The gods want to crush reality and they offer power to those mortals who serve them. This power most often comes in the form of tentacles, supernatural abilities, and a sudden love of grisly trophies and eight-pointed stars. So far, so familiar, yes? And from a certain angle all of that is manifestly true, but it’s not the whole truth. The truth is far, far worse, and that truth is what I wanted to show in Slaves to Darkness.
Chaos is elemental. The forces of the warp are regarded as gods, their servants as daemons, and their powers as sorcery. That is how mortals who know of the warp talk about Chaos, but that is a rationalisation of something much bigger and more terrifying. The forces of Chaos are not gods, in that they are not like people. They have sentience, a strange nightmare sentience patched together from the emotions of mortal races, but they are closer in nature to a cyclone than they are to a person. They are forces of eternal nature; raw and lethal, and wildly destructive. This is not because they choose to be, or because they enjoy it, any more than a flood chooses to sweep away a town, or a tornado flips over cars for kicks. They do what they do because that is what they are. They can be no other way. These powers oppose and antagonise each other like the poles of magnets. Despair and rot claw at the desire for perfection and endless pleasure, war sweeps away subtle power, and so on.
What does that have to do with the Horus Heresy and this book? It is important because it is the reason that the Traitors aren’t made stronger by falling to Chaos. They are made weaker. They are made slaves who can no longer choose their own path. Chaos pulls them apart, divides them, consumes them and sets Horus’ forces against each other. It does not do this because it is a winning strategy, far from it; it does this because it can’t help it. The great powers in the warp, the four that are called gods, can come together and apply their power to a single end, but this can only be temporary. As soon as they align they begin to split. And because they are elemental forces they do this messily, and with all the care of an earthquake.
But why don’t Horus and his followers simply choose not to be swayed by these forces? Why don’t they just take the good bits – the special powers – but stay focused and united in their goals? Because once Chaos has its claws in them, they have no choice. Once an individual has let Chaos take hold of them, their thoughts and emotions begin to resonate and amplify in harmony with the great powers. Other ways of seeing events wither in their perception. The manifest powers of Chaos become a release that can only be accessed by falling deeper into their embrace. Characters fall to Chaos, but they spiral as they fall. They try to escape, but their every choice now only takes them deeper. There is no way out for Horus and those that follow him, they are slaves and doomed through their own choices to fall apart and on each other with murder and treachery.
Once Chaos has hold of a mortal it enables the emotions that drove it into its arms, and feeds them in turn, so that they grow all-consuming and circular. Resentment becomes rage, becomes violence. Pride becomes arrogance. Knowledge becomes blindness to truth. And even if the soul that has fallen fights their fate, they still fall. To fall to Chaos is not to bow to the Chaos Gods, in fact it does not require that you even know that the Dark Gods exist. To rephrase the words hissed by the daemon Samos in the first Horus Heresy novel, Horus Rising: ‘Chaos all around you… It is the person beside you… It is you…’ The elemental power of the Chaos gods comes from the emotions of all sentient beings. Khorne does not exist because people worship it as a god of blood and war; Khorne exists because sentient creatures feel anger and rage, and want to destroy and kill and see their enemies broken. It does not matter to Tzeentch if a mortal who plots for power or hungers for knowledge does so in its name. The emotion and thought is enough to keep the cyclone turning.
That is what Chaos is, it is every weakness given power and set loose against itself without beginning and without end. That is the path that Horus, Lorgar and the first heretics set themselves on when they embraced Chaos. That is, if you like, the point of this book – to show that Horus and those that led him and followed him into darkness have become slaves to forces that they cannot control, bound by the chains of their own natures.
See as much as I like the Forces of Chaos, that makes the Marines that chose to follow it sound all the more like blithering idiots. Particularly those Traitors that weren't Slaves to Darkness at first but eventually became them. Because before they accepted the embrace of Chaos they were watching those that had crumble and fall to madness. Heck that makes all the Marines that fell after even stupider than them, because they had fought them and seen what had become of them.
Wow, that is a slap in the face for every chaos player....I mean I get that that might be out of a "imperial" viewpint, but he ist literally saying that chaos makes it's follower weaker. And not in a faustian-trade way that you trade free will for power, but simply weaker.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Because "Chaos" doesn't work that way. Chaos isn't a single entity or concept. It can no less give a man a tentacle as "The Imperium" can give a man a gun.
And whilst I am loathe to quote someone like ADB, I have to in this instance:
Spoiler:
ADB wrote:What is Chaos?
This question is at the heart of the book you hold in your hands. On the face of it, the answer is quite simple. Chaos is the dark force that exists in the warp. This force is exemplified by the four Dark Gods of Chaos: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh. The gods want to crush reality and they offer power to those mortals who serve them. This power most often comes in the form of tentacles, supernatural abilities, and a sudden love of grisly trophies and eight-pointed stars. So far, so familiar, yes? And from a certain angle all of that is manifestly true, but it’s not the whole truth. The truth is far, far worse, and that truth is what I wanted to show in Slaves to Darkness.
Chaos is elemental. The forces of the warp are regarded as gods, their servants as daemons, and their powers as sorcery. That is how mortals who know of the warp talk about Chaos, but that is a rationalisation of something much bigger and more terrifying. The forces of Chaos are not gods, in that they are not like people. They have sentience, a strange nightmare sentience patched together from the emotions of mortal races, but they are closer in nature to a cyclone than they are to a person. They are forces of eternal nature; raw and lethal, and wildly destructive. This is not because they choose to be, or because they enjoy it, any more than a flood chooses to sweep away a town, or a tornado flips over cars for kicks. They do what they do because that is what they are. They can be no other way. These powers oppose and antagonise each other like the poles of magnets. Despair and rot claw at the desire for perfection and endless pleasure, war sweeps away subtle power, and so on.
What does that have to do with the Horus Heresy and this book? It is important because it is the reason that the Traitors aren’t made stronger by falling to Chaos. They are made weaker. They are made slaves who can no longer choose their own path. Chaos pulls them apart, divides them, consumes them and sets Horus’ forces against each other. It does not do this because it is a winning strategy, far from it; it does this because it can’t help it. The great powers in the warp, the four that are called gods, can come together and apply their power to a single end, but this can only be temporary. As soon as they align they begin to split. And because they are elemental forces they do this messily, and with all the care of an earthquake.
But why don’t Horus and his followers simply choose not to be swayed by these forces? Why don’t they just take the good bits – the special powers – but stay focused and united in their goals? Because once Chaos has its claws in them, they have no choice. Once an individual has let Chaos take hold of them, their thoughts and emotions begin to resonate and amplify in harmony with the great powers. Other ways of seeing events wither in their perception. The manifest powers of Chaos become a release that can only be accessed by falling deeper into their embrace. Characters fall to Chaos, but they spiral as they fall. They try to escape, but their every choice now only takes them deeper. There is no way out for Horus and those that follow him, they are slaves and doomed through their own choices to fall apart and on each other with murder and treachery.
Once Chaos has hold of a mortal it enables the emotions that drove it into its arms, and feeds them in turn, so that they grow all-consuming and circular. Resentment becomes rage, becomes violence. Pride becomes arrogance. Knowledge becomes blindness to truth. And even if the soul that has fallen fights their fate, they still fall. To fall to Chaos is not to bow to the Chaos Gods, in fact it does not require that you even know that the Dark Gods exist. To rephrase the words hissed by the daemon Samos in the first Horus Heresy novel, Horus Rising: ‘Chaos all around you… It is the person beside you… It is you…’ The elemental power of the Chaos gods comes from the emotions of all sentient beings. Khorne does not exist because people worship it as a god of blood and war; Khorne exists because sentient creatures feel anger and rage, and want to destroy and kill and see their enemies broken. It does not matter to Tzeentch if a mortal who plots for power or hungers for knowledge does so in its name. The emotion and thought is enough to keep the cyclone turning.
That is what Chaos is, it is every weakness given power and set loose against itself without beginning and without end. That is the path that Horus, Lorgar and the first heretics set themselves on when they embraced Chaos. That is, if you like, the point of this book – to show that Horus and those that led him and followed him into darkness have become slaves to forces that they cannot control, bound by the chains of their own natures.
See as much as I like the Forces of Chaos, that makes the Marines that chose to follow it sound all the more like blithering idiots. Particularly those Traitors that weren't Slaves to Darkness at first but eventually became them. Because before they accepted the embrace of Chaos they were watching those that had crumble and fall to madness. Heck that makes all the Marines that fell after even stupider than them, because they had fought them and seen what had become of them.
Wow, that is a slap in the face for every chaos player....I mean I get that that might be out of a "imperial" viewpint, but he ist literally saying that chaos makes it's follower weaker. And not in a faustian-trade way that you trade free will for power, but simply weaker.
I suppose it depends on your interpretation of the summary on Chaos. I don't think it says it makes the follower flat weaker in terms of strength or combat ability. To me, it says that by definition Chaos makes it's follower weaker because Chaos will always tear itself apart, ultimately (among other things).
Most of the Marines of the Chaos Legions oppose the Emperor because they believe it will lead to a better future. Many don't have knowledge of the true nature of Chaos like this and presumably see it as a means to an end. Perhaps they simply see Chaos in an "Imperial Truth" kind of way - as a resource to be exploited for the betterment of Humanity. Let's not forget that the Emperor wasn't averse to making "deals" with Chaos or using the powers it confers (psychic powers).
The Talons of Horus/Black Legion books are a great representation of the veterans of the long war imo.
CSMs have reasons, grudges, hopes, rallying calls, allegiances, friendships and politics. They are not puppets, any more than SMs are. They are the disenfranchised, the betrayed and the betrayers, the oldest, wisest and maddest of the space marines. They knew Horus, they conquered the galaxy. The warp they know: true reality is known to them, unlike the gritted-teeth dogma of their loyalist brothers who take denial to an art form.
They have lived for an eternity, touched immortality, all have been betrayed once by a false god and most a second time by the true gods. They are no slaves, sleep-walkers, they see their condition, have an attitude towards it, and seek their own ends, despite or because what they have become.
It then presents a host of new rules for the Space Marines – including a codex expansion’s worth of rules for the storied Black Templars Chapter – and loads of awesome new content for the story’s antagonists, the Heretic Astartes.
The french rumour monger (who proved to be extremely reliable) already told us CSM are getting the equivalent of Vigilus for the missing Traitor Legions (no new Traits or equivalent to Doctrines). Only BT will get the full "supplement" ala Iron Hands, Salamanders etc.
And this quote from Warhammer Community nails it.
Can we put an end to these speculations which were born out of some strange interpretations of ONE sentence ?
Good catch there. I'm still going to wait for the reviews before I'm absolutely convinced, but this is still fairly damning. I really hope that there's a bunch of 2.0 codexes coming out in quick succession soon to make up for their mistakes.
As much as I would like this (as someone playing CSM, Daemons, DG, and Thousand Sons, who are some of the oldest rules designs and mistakes), I am skeptical this will happen. Especially for CSM who recently got screwed on their 1.5 rather than 2.0 codex.
However, it does the raise the question - what is next in 8th edition? Obviously they will keep pumping out Psychic Awakening for easy dollars and extra high-priced kits here and there.
But what about codexes? We are about to get Sisters, we already got Chaos Knights. Inquisition is about to be in White Dwarf. We've got supplements for SM chapters. Legions are getting a half-hearted option with a PA book rather than full codexes or full supplements (at least it saves money!).
Unless they introduce brand new factions, they are now out of armies that still need codexes. Emperor's Children and World Eaters are obvious options, but sadly that seems less likely given that in a few weeks they will have some extra rules in a PA book. So I am not sure what they will do other than more campaign books...seems like 2.0 codexes is the obvious option.
Supplements?
It depends on how they sold but they could do supplements for factions and subfactions other than Marines but i doubt it. The option was there for Chaos Marines to get them but they didn't bother.
Given that they are just releasing a Sister of Silence and Custodes together - a proper Talons the Emperor Codex would be nice but since they won't include FW models might be as poor as the nof effort WD Codex for Sisters of Silence.
Chaos doesn’t want to win. If it wins it dies. Chaos simply wants to continue the great game.
Chaos doesn't "want" anything. Stop attributing simple desires to something that is beyond comprehension.
Parts of it does - parts of it are in fact nothing more than desire, need and want and yes parts of it are happy for the great game to continue for eternity, or stop other bits winning etc
H.B.M.C. wrote: Because "Chaos" doesn't work that way. Chaos isn't a single entity or concept. It can no less give a man a tentacle as "The Imperium" can give a man a gun.
And whilst I am loathe to quote someone like ADB, I have to in this instance:
Spoiler:
ADB wrote:What is Chaos?
This question is at the heart of the book you hold in your hands. On the face of it, the answer is quite simple. Chaos is the dark force that exists in the warp. This force is exemplified by the four Dark Gods of Chaos: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh. The gods want to crush reality and they offer power to those mortals who serve them. This power most often comes in the form of tentacles, supernatural abilities, and a sudden love of grisly trophies and eight-pointed stars. So far, so familiar, yes? And from a certain angle all of that is manifestly true, but it’s not the whole truth. The truth is far, far worse, and that truth is what I wanted to show in Slaves to Darkness.
Chaos is elemental. The forces of the warp are regarded as gods, their servants as daemons, and their powers as sorcery. That is how mortals who know of the warp talk about Chaos, but that is a rationalisation of something much bigger and more terrifying. The forces of Chaos are not gods, in that they are not like people. They have sentience, a strange nightmare sentience patched together from the emotions of mortal races, but they are closer in nature to a cyclone than they are to a person. They are forces of eternal nature; raw and lethal, and wildly destructive. This is not because they choose to be, or because they enjoy it, any more than a flood chooses to sweep away a town, or a tornado flips over cars for kicks. They do what they do because that is what they are. They can be no other way. These powers oppose and antagonise each other like the poles of magnets. Despair and rot claw at the desire for perfection and endless pleasure, war sweeps away subtle power, and so on.
What does that have to do with the Horus Heresy and this book? It is important because it is the reason that the Traitors aren’t made stronger by falling to Chaos. They are made weaker. They are made slaves who can no longer choose their own path. Chaos pulls them apart, divides them, consumes them and sets Horus’ forces against each other. It does not do this because it is a winning strategy, far from it; it does this because it can’t help it. The great powers in the warp, the four that are called gods, can come together and apply their power to a single end, but this can only be temporary. As soon as they align they begin to split. And because they are elemental forces they do this messily, and with all the care of an earthquake.
But why don’t Horus and his followers simply choose not to be swayed by these forces? Why don’t they just take the good bits – the special powers – but stay focused and united in their goals? Because once Chaos has its claws in them, they have no choice. Once an individual has let Chaos take hold of them, their thoughts and emotions begin to resonate and amplify in harmony with the great powers. Other ways of seeing events wither in their perception. The manifest powers of Chaos become a release that can only be accessed by falling deeper into their embrace. Characters fall to Chaos, but they spiral as they fall. They try to escape, but their every choice now only takes them deeper. There is no way out for Horus and those that follow him, they are slaves and doomed through their own choices to fall apart and on each other with murder and treachery.
Once Chaos has hold of a mortal it enables the emotions that drove it into its arms, and feeds them in turn, so that they grow all-consuming and circular. Resentment becomes rage, becomes violence. Pride becomes arrogance. Knowledge becomes blindness to truth. And even if the soul that has fallen fights their fate, they still fall. To fall to Chaos is not to bow to the Chaos Gods, in fact it does not require that you even know that the Dark Gods exist. To rephrase the words hissed by the daemon Samos in the first Horus Heresy novel, Horus Rising: ‘Chaos all around you… It is the person beside you… It is you…’ The elemental power of the Chaos gods comes from the emotions of all sentient beings. Khorne does not exist because people worship it as a god of blood and war; Khorne exists because sentient creatures feel anger and rage, and want to destroy and kill and see their enemies broken. It does not matter to Tzeentch if a mortal who plots for power or hungers for knowledge does so in its name. The emotion and thought is enough to keep the cyclone turning.
That is what Chaos is, it is every weakness given power and set loose against itself without beginning and without end. That is the path that Horus, Lorgar and the first heretics set themselves on when they embraced Chaos. That is, if you like, the point of this book – to show that Horus and those that led him and followed him into darkness have become slaves to forces that they cannot control, bound by the chains of their own natures.
See as much as I like the Forces of Chaos, that makes the Marines that chose to follow it sound all the more like blithering idiots. Particularly those Traitors that weren't Slaves to Darkness at first but eventually became them. Because before they accepted the embrace of Chaos they were watching those that had crumble and fall to madness. Heck that makes all the Marines that fell after even stupider than them, because they had fought them and seen what had become of them.
Wow, that is a slap in the face for every chaos player....I mean I get that that might be out of a "imperial" viewpint, but he ist literally saying that chaos makes it's follower weaker. And not in a faustian-trade way that you trade free will for power, but simply weaker.
But that was always the case with Chaos, from WFB through 40k to Age of Sigmar? Chaos was always the sort of self-defeating villain. I dislike imperiumslobbering as much as anyone, but this one has been canon as long as chaos had a place in GW setting.
Cronch wrote: But that was always the case with Chaos, from WFB through 40k to Age of Sigmar?
No. Chaos warriors in WFB were really a whole level above normal human troops, and even the mere marauders were stronger than empire swordsmen. Chaos was a huge power boost, at the cost of your soul. Liked it much better that way.
Cronch wrote: But that was always the case with Chaos, from WFB through 40k to Age of Sigmar?
No. Chaos warriors in WFB were really a whole level above normal human troops, and even the mere marauders were stronger than empire swordsmen. Chaos was a huge power boost, at the cost of your soul. Liked it much better that way.
Exactly this! Maybe I got that text wrong, but Chaos was "the easy way" you sold your soul for immense power, not only for tentacles (sometimes sure, but not always). Like I said before, it was the faustian trade, your soul for power. And of course many got screwed over and became slaves to chaos, but not all of them. How do you explain someone like Abbadon, who manages to get the favour of all gods without commiting to one exactly in order to keep his free will! Cultists or weak minded individuals sure, they'll sell their soul and become mindless slaves...but Horus, Abbadon or other significant Marines? Meh...
Archaon is straight up the most powerful thing in AoS. He soloed Nagash, Sigmar and tells the gods to get stuffed. I get the feeling this is a kind of cope since by the logic of the setting (older, bigger = more powerful, glorious lost past etc) 10,000 year veterans of the long war would be stomping all but Mephiston tier marines. I think you have to compartmentalise 40k a bit. The Imperium is bad and oppressive and stuff but also the de facto good guys as well as the literal good guys. It really depends on the story being told or the facet of the setting being explored. The same applies to chaos IMO.
grouchoben wrote: The Talons of Horus/Black Legion books are a great representation of the veterans of the long war imo.
CSMs have reasons, grudges, hopes, rallying calls, allegiances, friendships and politics. They are not puppets, any more than SMs are. They are the disenfranchised, the betrayed and the betrayers, the oldest, wisest and maddest of the space marines. They knew Horus, they conquered the galaxy. The warp they know: true reality is known to them, unlike the gritted-teeth dogma of their loyalist brothers who take denial to an art form.
They have lived for an eternity, touched immortality, all have been betrayed once by a false god and most a second time by the true gods. They are no slaves, sleep-walkers, they see their condition, have an attitude towards it, and seek their own ends, despite or because what they have become.
All part of the tragedy of the Lost and the Damned.
They honestly think they're in control. They genuinely think they can comprehend, now or at some point, the nature of the power's they worship.
But they cannot. The Chaos Gods are insane. And always have been. Khorne likes to test his champions. But it's not to make them stronger or to find the most worthy. He does it because he likes a good scrap, and cares not from where the blood flows. Regardless of who wins, Khorne gets his due. Nurgle likewise. He's all about the proliferation of life. That's why he favours diseases and that - from one life, untold billions of organisms flow. Tzeentch? Plans within plans within plans within plans. Akin to Khorne, Tzeentch is too far gone to care if any given plan or plotter succeeds. The worship is the act, not the outcome.
Slaanesh? A threat to the other Gods because Slaanesh gains power through excess. And guess what all the Champions of the other Gods do? Everything to excess. The Skulls might go to Khorne, but the thrill of the kill goes to Slaanesh. Same with the other two.
Look at the gifts they bestow. It's long established (far back as the original Realm of Chaos books) that the Gods draw absolutely no distinction between a useful gift (say, Iron hard skin) and a debilitating one (face of a Chicken). They have no concept either way. And once you start down the dark path, other than outright damnation, you have three outcomes. Death, Daemonhood, and Spawndom. Becoming a Daemon Prince is as much a matter of luck as worship.
And Chaos is inherently self-defeating. The Gods can work together, for a time. But it will always fall apart, because each one wants to be the ultimate winner. This is covered quite nicely in the AoS background. See, after Sigmar shut himself away in Azyrheim (working on the Stormcast), they overran all the other realms - and immediately turned on each other before the job was complete. They lack true unity, because they lack sanity.
Consider their mortal rivals in 40k. Orks, Eldar, Imperium, Tau and Necron. All of those species can, to some degree, more or less co-operate. For a time. Alliances can be made or bought.
Orks are the wildcard of course, because all they really want to do is krump stuff. In theory (and only in theory), a wily Imperial Commander could re-direct an Ork Waaaaagh! into the path of a Traitor Fleet - either through bribery or cunning. And we've seen the Eldar pull off much the same, thanks to Farseer intervention.
The others have some greater degree of sanity, and appreciation for the bigger picture. When the Chaos Fleets are threatening to smash everything, better to stand together to repulse them, and finish your masterplan later. And that can include temporary truces to allow oneself (if not your erstwhile allies) to regather your strength in between.
CSM just don't think they're puppets. But they are. Of course they are. Few warbands will have their own supply lines. So they must rely on others - including the Dark Mechanicum who demand soul stuff to feed their forges. It all helps drive atrocity after atrocity, due to the constant need to prove oneself and provide suitable tribute. And to what end? They have no freedom to abandon that path. They're much too far down it to ever turn away. There is no peace for them. There can be no lasting victory. They're in it until death.
Cronch wrote: But that was always the case with Chaos, from WFB through 40k to Age of Sigmar?
No. Chaos warriors in WFB were really a whole level above normal human troops, and even the mere marauders were stronger than empire swordsmen. Chaos was a huge power boost, at the cost of your soul. Liked it much better that way.
They were individually stronger physically, but pretty much every story underscored that they lacked cohesion and often acted irrational, which is how the weaker, but sane races managed to stave off the End Times till Archaon, the Chaos Jesus who spends most of time telling Chaos he doesn't even like it, managed to literally kick every chaos warlord in one direction. Chaos does make you weaker as a person, even if it does provide temporary boost to your physical prowess.
we also see it in 40K, after the great rift opened, the 4 chaos gods lost intreast and started doing their own things, like a quartet of hyperactive toddlers with ADHD
grouchoben wrote: The Talons of Horus/Black Legion books are a great representation of the veterans of the long war imo.
CSMs have reasons, grudges, hopes, rallying calls, allegiances, friendships and politics. They are not puppets, any more than SMs are. They are the disenfranchised, the betrayed and the betrayers, the oldest, wisest and maddest of the space marines. They knew Horus, they conquered the galaxy. The warp they know: true reality is known to them, unlike the gritted-teeth dogma of their loyalist brothers who take denial to an art form.
They have lived for an eternity, touched immortality, all have been betrayed once by a false god and most a second time by the true gods. They are no slaves, sleep-walkers, they see their condition, have an attitude towards it, and seek their own ends, despite or because what they have become.
All part of the tragedy of the Lost and the Damned.
They honestly think they're in control. They genuinely think they can comprehend, now or at some point, the nature of the power's they worship.
But they cannot. The Chaos Gods are insane. And always have been. Khorne likes to test his champions. But it's not to make them stronger or to find the most worthy. He does it because he likes a good scrap, and cares not from where the blood flows. Regardless of who wins, Khorne gets his due. Nurgle likewise. He's all about the proliferation of life. That's why he favours diseases and that - from one life, untold billions of organisms flow. Tzeentch? Plans within plans within plans within plans. Akin to Khorne, Tzeentch is too far gone to care if any given plan or plotter succeeds. The worship is the act, not the outcome.
Slaanesh? A threat to the other Gods because Slaanesh gains power through excess. And guess what all the Champions of the other Gods do? Everything to excess. The Skulls might go to Khorne, but the thrill of the kill goes to Slaanesh. Same with the other two.
Look at the gifts they bestow. It's long established (far back as the original Realm of Chaos books) that the Gods draw absolutely no distinction between a useful gift (say, Iron hard skin) and a debilitating one (face of a Chicken). They have no concept either way. And once you start down the dark path, other than outright damnation, you have three outcomes. Death, Daemonhood, and Spawndom. Becoming a Daemon Prince is as much a matter of luck as worship.
And Chaos is inherently self-defeating. The Gods can work together, for a time. But it will always fall apart, because each one wants to be the ultimate winner. This is covered quite nicely in the AoS background. See, after Sigmar shut himself away in Azyrheim (working on the Stormcast), they overran all the other realms - and immediately turned on each other before the job was complete. They lack true unity, because they lack sanity.
Consider their mortal rivals in 40k. Orks, Eldar, Imperium, Tau and Necron. All of those species can, to some degree, more or less co-operate. For a time. Alliances can be made or bought.
Orks are the wildcard of course, because all they really want to do is krump stuff. In theory (and only in theory), a wily Imperial Commander could re-direct an Ork Waaaaagh! into the path of a Traitor Fleet - either through bribery or cunning. And we've seen the Eldar pull off much the same, thanks to Farseer intervention.
The others have some greater degree of sanity, and appreciation for the bigger picture. When the Chaos Fleets are threatening to smash everything, better to stand together to repulse them, and finish your masterplan later. And that can include temporary truces to allow oneself (if not your erstwhile allies) to regather your strength in between.
CSM just don't think they're puppets. But they are. Of course they are. Few warbands will have their own supply lines. So they must rely on others - including the Dark Mechanicum who demand soul stuff to feed their forges. It all helps drive atrocity after atrocity, due to the constant need to prove oneself and provide suitable tribute. And to what end? They have no freedom to abandon that path. They're much too far down it to ever turn away. There is no peace for them. There can be no lasting victory. They're in it until death.
Well put and completely true! I get the tragic part that CSM are puppets...of course they are (at least most of them, an even the strongest of will WILL succumb some day).
I just think the term "weaker" is badly chosen. Because the tragedy is sacrifice free will for power, not for weakness. It would just be stupid if they sacrifice their freedom for nothing upfront (for them individually stupid, but also storywise), they get power upfront...for a terrible price. They have to be lured in with something
JSG wrote: The Imperium is bad and oppressive and stuff but also the de facto good guys as well as the literal good guys.
Orks, Tau, Eldar, Harlequins, hell even Genestealer Cults and maybe Tyranids in general are closer to moral "good guys" than the imperium.
CWE and Harlequins are working to preserve their species, they simply do not view humans as intelligent life on the same tier as themselves, in much the same way as we humans would kill a gorilla (F to pay respect) if we thought it was threatening a child.
Tau are pretty much the same level of oppressive as the imperium, except that they will allow alien races to be subjugated rather than eradicated.
Orks operate on an entirely different moral framework to humans, because fighting and war are entertainment and reproduction to them.
GSC are rebelling against a corrupt and evil empire. They are unwittingly inviting destruction, but do possess superior morals to the imperium despite that ignorance.
And tyranids are just predatory animals acting on instinct.
Imperium is not the literal good guys. They're not even in the top 5. And I'm talking about the faction in general here, not the morality of individual groups like Salamanders who still operate within the imperial system.
Rihgu wrote: Why does everybody think "supplement level" means doctrines + enhanced traits? Those are both things added by the codex, not the supplement.
All the supplements add are... stratagems, relics, warlord traits... you know, like what Black Legion got in Vigilus.
Expecting anything more than that based on "supplement level" seems really strange.
The problem is that Marines got elevated to a whole new level in power with their codex and supplements and sofar it looks like no one else is getting that treatment and instead a bunch of half-hearted scraps thrown at them.
At this point you should be praying your faction doesn't show up in PA, because it will likely mean no new codex in the forseeable future.
Nothing they do is ever personal. They're just fulfilling their genetic imperative without guile or pretence.
Eldar will sacrifice a world of Billions, to save a handful of lives. So a more apt comparisson would be humans deciding to wipe out all Gorillas because one might, at some point, harm a child.
Orks? They'll smash up your world because that's just their way of life. There's no malice aforethought, not in the way we understand it. No motive beyond 'lets get on our ship, see where we end up, and then smash it, because smashing stuff is fun and good and makes us bigger'.
Consider why they're drawn to warzones in ever greater numbers. It's not to win a war - it's to get involved in a really, really big fight.
Tau are pretty much the same level of oppressive as the imperium, except that they will allow alien races to be subjugated rather than eradicated.
Tau are nowhere near as bad as the Imperium. Imperium's policy towards any technological alien race is automatic destruction if possible. Tau will try to incorporate you by diplomacy first and then by force if they can, but they do give you the option for peaceful incorporation, and they won't genocide you if they win, they just make you a subject of the Ethereals.
Then you have the simple fact that even as a subject of the Tau, you can expect better life quality, safer environment and more respect for life than 99% of Imperial subjects. Tau do not routinely sacrifice their citizenry as bait or simply to "cleanse" a world. They will attempt to evacuate a threatened colony, not exterminatus it to deny resources or leave it on the vine if it's not worth the effort.
Heck, the Tau won't even force your species into one of their existing castes, you will be allowed to keep your beliefs and culture as long as you chip in to their economy and Greater Good by production or service as troops.
Compared to the Imperium, they are literal saviors of humanity, offering hope, safety and dignity, even if from our modern point of view, they are as imperialist as Rome or Britain at the height of it's power.
Ordana wrote: At this point you should be praying your faction doesn't show up in PA, because it will likely mean no new codex in the forseeable future.
All factions except for the really tiny ones like Inquisition or Sisters of Silence are getting stuff in Psychic Awakening:
Spoiler:
And we already know Sisters of Battle are getting a new codex soon, and they're in PA as well.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: If memory serves, there was rumour of declining birth rates on Tau occupied worlds.
Unless I've imagined this (I'm aware this happens in Stargate SG:1), that's still genocide.
That was from one of the Dawn of War games, and not even the canonical ending for that particular instalment of the series, so it cannot really stand as proof.
The Tau are a threat because they are an ideological alternative to the Imperium that is attractive to the average Imperial citizen. That is why worlds near the Tau empire ended up trading with it, because it brought measurable material benefits. Of course the Tau are self-serving in their own way, but what matters for the average Imperial is going to be what feeds them and their family and their work conditions. The other idea that the Imperium views as threatening is the idea of separation of religion and state, with the Tau permitting Emperor worship under a Tau secular government.
I am quite upset to hear Black Templars are only getting supplement level rules in the new PA, whilst my CSM are still looking pretty awful in comparison. I wouldn't mind so much if they hadn't of sold me Vigilius 2 and CSM codex 2.0 which followed by loyalist was just... Wow....
Hopefully the new CSM bonuses apply army wide and not just infantry/biker/dreadnoughts cause that is such an annoyingly limited thing at this point and has no right existing on any army.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: If memory serves, there was rumour of declining birth rates on Tau occupied worlds.
Unless I've imagined this (I'm aware this happens in Stargate SG:1), that's still genocide.
As pointed out, this is from a video game, not canon material. However, let's assume this is in fact canon, and Tau do practice state-enforced birth control for conquered species, that's still nowhere near the same level of hate towards human life that Imperium displays on regular basis.
As pointed out, this is from a video game, not canon material. However, let's assume this is in fact canon, and Tau do practice state-enforced birth control for conquered species, that's still nowhere near the same level of hate towards human life that Imperium displays on regular basis.
I see we've entered into the "degrees of genocide" portion of our internet scream fest.
It's horrific by modern standards, necessary according to The High Lords.
The Tau do it in the name of expansion and conquest.
Except the tau don't. Tau don't exterminate it's own citizens, Tau don't abandon their own citizens, and Tau care about the well being of their own citizens, and even their client races to a large extent. I can think of one instance of Tau forces going overboard against human opposition, and they got quickly slapped on the wrist by the Ethereal caste for acting too much like their human enemies. So no, they don't "do it". Imperium is just as bad as chaos when it comes to treating human life, and even eldar, who largely leave humanity alone, are less of a threat to your average human than the Imperium.
The Imperium was always written as the bad guys, from the start.
In fact, the mere continued existence of Tau proves the point that Imperium is wrong in all aspects. Despite being faced with older, meaner, and generally evil-acting races (except for Eldar, who just do eldar things), Tau expand and prosper, without resorting to all the things that Imperium resorts to (which, let's not forget, are also largely against Emperor's vision for humanity back before he became a chair).
H.B.M.C. wrote: Because "Chaos" doesn't work that way. Chaos isn't a single entity or concept. It can no less give a man a tentacle as "The Imperium" can give a man a gun.
And whilst I am loathe to quote someone like ADB, I have to in this instance:
Spoiler:
ADB wrote:What is Chaos?
This question is at the heart of the book you hold in your hands. On the face of it, the answer is quite simple. Chaos is the dark force that exists in the warp. This force is exemplified by the four Dark Gods of Chaos: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh. The gods want to crush reality and they offer power to those mortals who serve them. This power most often comes in the form of tentacles, supernatural abilities, and a sudden love of grisly trophies and eight-pointed stars. So far, so familiar, yes? And from a certain angle all of that is manifestly true, but it’s not the whole truth. The truth is far, far worse, and that truth is what I wanted to show in Slaves to Darkness.
Chaos is elemental. The forces of the warp are regarded as gods, their servants as daemons, and their powers as sorcery. That is how mortals who know of the warp talk about Chaos, but that is a rationalisation of something much bigger and more terrifying. The forces of Chaos are not gods, in that they are not like people. They have sentience, a strange nightmare sentience patched together from the emotions of mortal races, but they are closer in nature to a cyclone than they are to a person. They are forces of eternal nature; raw and lethal, and wildly destructive. This is not because they choose to be, or because they enjoy it, any more than a flood chooses to sweep away a town, or a tornado flips over cars for kicks. They do what they do because that is what they are. They can be no other way. These powers oppose and antagonise each other like the poles of magnets. Despair and rot claw at the desire for perfection and endless pleasure, war sweeps away subtle power, and so on.
What does that have to do with the Horus Heresy and this book? It is important because it is the reason that the Traitors aren’t made stronger by falling to Chaos. They are made weaker. They are made slaves who can no longer choose their own path. Chaos pulls them apart, divides them, consumes them and sets Horus’ forces against each other. It does not do this because it is a winning strategy, far from it; it does this because it can’t help it. The great powers in the warp, the four that are called gods, can come together and apply their power to a single end, but this can only be temporary. As soon as they align they begin to split. And because they are elemental forces they do this messily, and with all the care of an earthquake.
But why don’t Horus and his followers simply choose not to be swayed by these forces? Why don’t they just take the good bits – the special powers – but stay focused and united in their goals? Because once Chaos has its claws in them, they have no choice. Once an individual has let Chaos take hold of them, their thoughts and emotions begin to resonate and amplify in harmony with the great powers. Other ways of seeing events wither in their perception. The manifest powers of Chaos become a release that can only be accessed by falling deeper into their embrace. Characters fall to Chaos, but they spiral as they fall. They try to escape, but their every choice now only takes them deeper. There is no way out for Horus and those that follow him, they are slaves and doomed through their own choices to fall apart and on each other with murder and treachery.
Once Chaos has hold of a mortal it enables the emotions that drove it into its arms, and feeds them in turn, so that they grow all-consuming and circular. Resentment becomes rage, becomes violence. Pride becomes arrogance. Knowledge becomes blindness to truth. And even if the soul that has fallen fights their fate, they still fall. To fall to Chaos is not to bow to the Chaos Gods, in fact it does not require that you even know that the Dark Gods exist. To rephrase the words hissed by the daemon Samos in the first Horus Heresy novel, Horus Rising: ‘Chaos all around you… It is the person beside you… It is you…’ The elemental power of the Chaos gods comes from the emotions of all sentient beings. Khorne does not exist because people worship it as a god of blood and war; Khorne exists because sentient creatures feel anger and rage, and want to destroy and kill and see their enemies broken. It does not matter to Tzeentch if a mortal who plots for power or hungers for knowledge does so in its name. The emotion and thought is enough to keep the cyclone turning.
That is what Chaos is, it is every weakness given power and set loose against itself without beginning and without end. That is the path that Horus, Lorgar and the first heretics set themselves on when they embraced Chaos. That is, if you like, the point of this book – to show that Horus and those that led him and followed him into darkness have become slaves to forces that they cannot control, bound by the chains of their own natures.
See as much as I like the Forces of Chaos, that makes the Marines that chose to follow it sound all the more like blithering idiots. Particularly those Traitors that weren't Slaves to Darkness at first but eventually became them. Because before they accepted the embrace of Chaos they were watching those that had crumble and fall to madness. Heck that makes all the Marines that fell after even stupider than them, because they had fought them and seen what had become of them.
Your problem is to see falling to "Chaos" as a choice. Living beings are driven by emotions, and chaos predates in those emotions. All kind of authors have written chaos and his corruption in a ton of different ways but the most common one is not a "OK I'LL ACCEPT CHAOS GIVE ME POWER!" but a gradual and most of the time even passive corruption. When a guy reachs the point to "accept chaos" he has already fallen.
Many other times they fall by trickery, like sick people falling for Nurgle in hope of a cure or just to their pain to end. And in some way, theyll receive that, but like a Monkey Pawn, always with a drawback.
And as others have pointed out, in that quote, it does not mean that chaos marines are "weaker" In power. Quite the contrary. By pure strenght we can see that normally Chaos marines are more powerfull. Just compare chaos primarchs to normal primarchs.
Cronch wrote: But that was always the case with Chaos, from WFB through 40k to Age of Sigmar?
No. Chaos warriors in WFB were really a whole level above normal human troops, and even the mere marauders were stronger than empire swordsmen. Chaos was a huge power boost, at the cost of your soul. Liked it much better that way.
They were individually stronger physically, but pretty much every story underscored that they lacked cohesion and often acted irrational, which is how the weaker, but sane races managed to stave off the End Times till Archaon, the Chaos Jesus who spends most of time telling Chaos he doesn't even like it, managed to literally kick every chaos warlord in one direction. Chaos does make you weaker as a person, even if it does provide temporary boost to your physical prowess.
Not only that, but I remember, and very well as a Chaos Warriors player in Fantasy, that once a Chaos Warrior was clad in his Chaos-dwarven forged Plate, he couldn't take it off. Is not like they would want to do it, of course. A Chaos Warrior in full chaos plate doesnt need to drink, eat or sleep. They are just moved by their desire to conquer and destroy. But only a tiny tiny fraction of chaos barbarians and followers gained a Chaos plate.
Also, Barbarians werent like cultists in 40k. I loved the 6th edition Hordes of Chaos book because you could see how Norscan were their own culture with their traditions. For them, the Chaos Gods were just gods, with many different names, and only part of a greater pantheon. They adapted to an enviroment were the warp was much stronger than in the south. They didn't sold their souls for the Chaos Gods, only the most devoted did.
It's horrific by modern standards, necessary according to The High Lords.
The Tau do it in the name of expansion and conquest.
Except the tau don't. Tau don't exterminate it's own citizens, Tau don't abandon their own citizens, and Tau care about the well being of their own citizens, and even their client races to a large extent. I can think of one instance of Tau forces going overboard against human opposition, and they got quickly slapped on the wrist by the Ethereal caste for acting too much like their human enemies. So no, they don't "do it". Imperium is just as bad as chaos when it comes to treating human life, and even eldar, who largely leave humanity alone, are less of a threat to your average human than the Imperium.
The Imperium was always written as the bad guys, from the start.
In fact, the mere continued existence of Tau proves the point that Imperium is wrong in all aspects. Despite being faced with older, meaner, and generally evil-acting races (except for Eldar, who just do eldar things), Tau expand and prosper, without resorting to all the things that Imperium resorts to (which, let's not forget, are also largely against Emperor's vision for humanity back before he became a chair).
Tau are in some way very similar to the Roman Empire. They bring you culture and advancement, and if you join voluntarely, the better. But they won't hesitate to conquer you. Of course, the fact that they try diplomacy and peacefull ways first puts them above literally everything else in 40k. And once you are part of the Empire, you can keep your customs and traditions as long as you work as part of the auxiliary of the great Empire army. You could choose to add parts of Tau culture in your own, to gain rights as a citizen. It is not obligatory, but many will do it because it beneffits them over time.
And , as much as Imperial apologyst try to paint Tau as some kind of communist distopia (Ignoring that the Tau Empire is literally Plato's Republic in action), in every kind of media, be it books , campaings or Codex, tau centric or not, is always pointed out how living in a normal Tau world is just much better than an Imperial one .That doesn't mean they don't do bad things. They do, but, eeeeh... the scale of their evilness is greately exaggerated for internet histeria.
Heck, even Farsight, the rebel of the Tau society is less of a rebel because Tau are evil and more because he wants more of a free society.
If the Chosen get two wounds I will promise to finally start a Chaos army. I want to use those cool looking new CSM models without them feeling like total wimps on the tabletop.
I’d like for there to be a real reason to use CSM rules for Alpha Legion and not just make them ‘counts as’ Ultramarines - as funny as that actually is at times...
Crimson wrote: If the Chosen get two wounds I will promise to finally start a Chaos army. I want to use those cool looking new CSM models without them feeling like total wimps on the tabletop.
You would still not really field them considering that , well , you get better Primaris for the pricepoint and no Doctrines, etc.
Otoh, Chosen having 2 W is well, i mean they are less of a glasscannon but still brittle as hell.
Cronch wrote: But that was always the case with Chaos, from WFB through 40k to Age of Sigmar?
No. Chaos warriors in WFB were really a whole level above normal human troops, and even the mere marauders were stronger than empire swordsmen. Chaos was a huge power boost, at the cost of your soul. Liked it much better that way.
Stat wise marauders were the same str. But their options and rules were more openly rewarding of an aggressive play style.
Crimson wrote: If the Chosen get two wounds I will promise to finally start a Chaos army. I want to use those cool looking new CSM models without them feeling like total wimps on the tabletop.
You would still not really field them considering that , well , you get better Primaris for the pricepoint and no Doctrines, etc.
Otoh, Chosen having 2 W is well, i mean they are less of a glasscannon but still brittle as hell.
It is really not about being good in the game, it is about not being wimpy. I want them to have a good statline even though they were overcosted. And I wouldn't be having plenty of them, they would represent the few marines in a force of cultists and other weirdness.
While the rest of the Imperium was beset by ever-growing threats following the opening of the Great Rift, the sanctified Talledus System was considered a safe zone under the protection of the Ecclesiarchy, and by extension, the Emperor himself. The shrine world Benediction stood as a gleaming, golden monument to the Emperor’s might.
Perhaps this semblance of peace is ultimately what attracted the Ruinous Powers to it. The psychic trauma wrought by the Cicatrix Maledictum gave rise to increasingly bizarre and terrifying phenomena.
Just as fringe cults began to reveal themselves as servants of the Dark Gods, an armada of six Legions of the Heretic Astartes, directed by Kor Phaeron of the Word Bearers, arrived to destroy Talledus once and for all, and deny the notion that anywhere might be safe from Chaos.
The Sisters of Battle and Astra Militarum – bolstered by a massive strike force of Adeptus Astartes led by the Black Templars – stand firm in their creed to defend Humanity, at any cost…
If Kor Phaeron appears on-screen and is not simply directing the fleet form Sicarus, this will be his first ever actual appearance in non-Heresy lore
While the rest of the Imperium was beset by ever-growing threats following the opening of the Great Rift, the sanctified Talledus System was considered a safe zone under the protection of the Ecclesiarchy, and by extension, the Emperor himself. The shrine world Benediction stood as a gleaming, golden monument to the Emperor’s might.
Perhaps this semblance of peace is ultimately what attracted the Ruinous Powers to it. The psychic trauma wrought by the Cicatrix Maledictum gave rise to increasingly bizarre and terrifying phenomena.
Just as fringe cults began to reveal themselves as servants of the Dark Gods, an armada of six Legions of the Heretic Astartes, directed by Kor Phaeron of the Word Bearers, arrived to destroy Talledus once and for all, and deny the notion that anywhere might be safe from Chaos.
The Sisters of Battle and Astra Militarum – bolstered by a massive strike force of Adeptus Astartes led by the Black Templars – stand firm in their creed to defend Humanity, at any cost…
If Kor Phaeron appears on-screen and is not simply directing the fleet form Sicarus, this will be his first ever actual appearance in non-Heresy lore
Drastically veering off topic to argue about nonsense is the charm of this forum...
Would be very interesting to see some narrative with Kor Phaeron directly portrayed. Though, as ever, I'd prefer Erebus by far.
So, this points to the previous belief that Chaos won't be getting any points changes.
It does, however, remain to be seen what the "Champions of Ruin" section is all about, and whether it affects CSM in a similar way to "successors". Might just be a fluff introduction though.
That's new for 8th ed, isn't it? I don't think Daemon weapons were in the game since 5th ed? I could be wrong though, I don't have every codex on hand. The Zaal looks scary. You have a 1/6 chance of doing nothing, but a 5/6 chance of getting anywhere from S6-S10 (assuming the wielder is S4), depending on what you roll. Coupled with D2 and AP-5, one can do some damage...provided the owning model has plenty of attacks and a decent WS, and the target has a crappy invul that is.
Kdash wrote: So, this points to the previous belief that Chaos won't be getting any points changes.
It does, however, remain to be seen what the "Champions of Ruin" section is all about, and whether it affects CSM in a similar way to "successors". Might just be a fluff introduction though.
And likewise, there are no Datasheets listed for Chaos. So the rumour that Noise Marines, Berzerkers, Plague Marines and Rubics are getting 2Ws is either: A) not happening at all B) not happening until the next Chapter Approved (propably with other points changes) or C) will be included in the "Champions of Ruin" section (fingers crossed)
Eldar PA book had what, 20 pages of rules total? Most of which were a full copy-paste from an already printed white dwarf article?
60 pages of rules in the first book where we have power armored factions again
Also, good to see new rules content for Codex: Space Marines. That faction was really forgotten and languishing, I'm glad they get another half-dozen warlord traits, relics and stratagems to use, they didn't have enough.
The "Masters of the Chapter" nonsense seems more in line with Successor Chapters anyways, so bully for them in not wasting space in my main codex for it!
Shame that BTs get Crusader Squads and nobody else got a 'signature' unit though. Would have been cool to get 'Firedrake' Aggressors or Mor Deythan Eliminators.
Latro_ wrote: With the amount of legions they are touching on in this book i would not expect much. My guess is each one will get about the black legion treatment from vigilus.
e.g.
No legion trait change (forget about that)
page of strats
page of relics and / or powers
page of WL traits
page of tac obj nonsense
knew it! basic lip service job to the legions. It's sad but i'll take anything for my world eaters at this point.
That's new for 8th ed, isn't it? I don't think Daemon weapons were in the game since 5th ed?
I could be wrong though, I don't have every codex on hand.
The Zaal looks scary. You have a 1/6 chance of doing nothing, but a 5/6 chance of getting anywhere from S6-S10 (assuming the wielder is S4), depending on what you roll. Coupled with D2 and AP-5, one can do some damage...provided the owning model has plenty of attacks and a decent WS, and the target has a crappy invul that is.
That's new for 8th ed, isn't it? I don't think Daemon weapons were in the game since 5th ed?
I could be wrong though, I don't have every codex on hand.
The Zaal looks scary. You have a 1/6 chance of doing nothing, but a 5/6 chance of getting anywhere from S6-S10 (assuming the wielder is S4), depending on what you roll. Coupled with D2 and AP-5, one can do some damage...provided the owning model has plenty of attacks and a decent WS, and the target has a crappy invul that is.
Kanluwen wrote: The "Masters of the Chapter" nonsense seems more in line with Successor Chapters anyways, so bully for them in not wasting space in my main codex for it!
Shame that BTs get Crusader Squads and nobody else got a 'signature' unit though. Would have been cool to get 'Firedrake' Aggressors or Mor Deythan Eliminators.
That would have made the supplements so much better - but we still suffer from the no rules no unit bullgak.
That's new for 8th ed, isn't it? I don't think Daemon weapons were in the game since 5th ed?
I could be wrong though, I don't have every codex on hand.
The Zaal looks scary. You have a 1/6 chance of doing nothing, but a 5/6 chance of getting anywhere from S6-S10 (assuming the wielder is S4), depending on what you roll. Coupled with D2 and AP-5, one can do some damage...provided the owning model has plenty of attacks and a decent WS, and the target has a crappy invul that is.
Also, a melee weapon with an AP of -5.
Adorable, GW. Very cute.
Tzeentch Daemons have had that as a relic option for awhile now (Soulbane). Granted you can only give it to a crappy Herald.
Latro_ wrote: With the amount of legions they are touching on in this book i would not expect much. My guess is each one will get about the black legion treatment from vigilus.
e.g.
No legion trait change (forget about that)
page of strats
page of relics and / or powers
page of WL traits
page of tac obj nonsense
knew it! basic lip service job to the legions. It's sad but i'll take anything for my world eaters at this point.
So more or less the same rules content as the supplement books is "basic lip service job to the legions"?
Kanluwen wrote: The "Masters of the Chapter" nonsense seems more in line with Successor Chapters anyways, so bully for them in not wasting space in my main codex for it!
Shame that BTs get Crusader Squads and nobody else got a 'signature' unit though. Would have been cool to get 'Firedrake' Aggressors or Mor Deythan Eliminators.
That would have made the supplements so much better - but we still suffer from the no rules no unit bullgak.
So more or less the same rules content as the supplement books is "basic lip service job to the legions"?
Coolcoolcool.
.
So, all the loyalists got:
-Effectively doubled chapter tactics for most chapters (most got an additional rule tacked on to their previous CT rule)
-CTs on all models including vehicles
-special doctrines adding -1 AP to whole categories of weapons
-A whole bunch of new stratagems added on to the base codex
-Successor Chapter buildabear chapter rules that allow you to get the bonuses and doctrines of one of the base chapters (meaning basically if you like the super-goodies of a chapter but don't like the CT rule, you can just swap that gak and have 11" flamers or whatever)
-Super doctrines for each chapter, adding extra rules/extra AP on top of the usual -1AP bonus
-A new psychic discipline for each chapter
-relics, strats, and wl traits for each chapter
Ah, the salt mine is open on Monday morning. Am I really seeing complaints about Salamanders not getting something when they just got a supplement?
Reading the preview, looks like we will have a good chunk of content from the book. Will be nice for BT to get a shot in the arm for the first time since.... 3rd?
Eh. Marines aren't actually getting releases for models with the book, just an independent release of the Shadowspear sprue.
They don't really need anything more, what with just having had a codex drop and a wildly too lengthy spread out release.
Glad to see Sisters coming in though. The new Chaos Sorcerer is nice too.
Cute to see people still hoping they will get new models for BT's. Or new Traits for the CSM Legions.
We already know we won't have any new model for any army except the Chaos Sorcerer that was previewed last week. And we also know there will be no revamped Legion Traits for the CSM.
What's wrong with that? It removes a 2+ armour save. I'm sure 2+ units without an invulnerable save like Sanguinary Guard or units affected by some debuff that takes their invulnerable save wouldn't like to face that thing.
So more or less the same rules content as the supplement books is "basic lip service job to the legions"?
Coolcoolcool.
.
So, all the loyalists got:
-Effectively doubled chapter tactics for most chapters (most got an additional rule tacked on to their previous CT rule)
-CTs on all models including vehicles
-special doctrines adding -1 AP to whole categories of weapons
-A whole bunch of new stratagems added on to the base codex
-Successor Chapter buildabear chapter rules that allow you to get the bonuses and doctrines of one of the base chapters (meaning basically if you like the super-goodies of a chapter but don't like the CT rule, you can just swap that gak and have 11" flamers or whatever)
-Super doctrines for each chapter, adding extra rules/extra AP on top of the usual -1AP bonus
-A new psychic discipline for each chapter
-relics, strats, and wl traits for each chapter
And CSMs are getting:
-Relics, strats, and wl traits for each legion
And that's more or less the same to you?
So.... you are adding in what loyalists get from multiple books and comparing that to what CSM gets from just this one book? Am I reading that right? Seems a bit skewed doesn't it?
So more or less the same rules content as the supplement books is "basic lip service job to the legions"?
Coolcoolcool.
.
So, all the loyalists got:
-Effectively doubled chapter tactics for most chapters (most got an additional rule tacked on to their previous CT rule)
-CTs on all models including vehicles
-special doctrines adding -1 AP to whole categories of weapons
-A whole bunch of new stratagems added on to the base codex
-Successor Chapter buildabear chapter rules that allow you to get the bonuses and doctrines of one of the base chapters (meaning basically if you like the super-goodies of a chapter but don't like the CT rule, you can just swap that gak and have 11" flamers or whatever)
-Super doctrines for each chapter, adding extra rules/extra AP on top of the usual -1AP bonus
-A new psychic discipline for each chapter
-relics, strats, and wl traits for each chapter
And CSMs are getting:
-Relics, strats, and wl traits for each legion
And that's more or less the same to you?
So.... you are adding in what loyalists get from multiple books and comparing that to what CSM gets from just this one book? Am I reading that right? Seems a bit skewed doesn't it?
Chaos SM have 3 books now to get that aswell, so yes it's about fair.
What's wrong with that? It removes a 2+ armour save. I'm sure 2+ units without an invulnerable save like Sanguinary Guard or units affected by some debuff that takes their invulnerable save wouldn't like to face that thing.
And every other unit with an invulnerable will laugh his ass off?
I mean GW allready threw out invuls like candy and we have no other indication if the daemonweapons will be free.
What's wrong with that? It removes a 2+ armour save. I'm sure 2+ units without an invulnerable save like Sanguinary Guard or units affected by some debuff that takes their invulnerable save wouldn't like to face that thing.
And every other unit with an invulnerable will laugh his ass off?
I mean GW allready threw out invuls like candy and we have no other indication if the daemonweapons will be free.
It looks to be a relic, so I imagine it would have the same costs as any other relic in the game so far.
Index chaos,
Codex CSM,
CA17,
CA18,
Vigilus Ablaze,
Codex CSM 2.0,
PA Faith and Fury,
CA19
8 sources in just over 3 years to play a single faction is insane. Especially when you realize the Chaos Codex is still busted and in need of a 9th attempt
So more or less the same rules content as the supplement books is "basic lip service job to the legions"?
Coolcoolcool.
So, all the loyalists got:
-Effectively doubled chapter tactics for most chapters (most got an additional rule tacked on to their previous CT rule)
This was done in the main codex. Additionally, I really wouldn't be shocked if there's something similar done with this.
-CTs on all models including vehicles
Codex--and doesn't actually apply to all models including vehicles. Read the Raven Guard trait, for example, which specifically calls out Vehicles as being unable to benefit.
-special doctrines adding -1 AP to whole categories of weapons
Codex--and frankly, handled rather poorly.
-A whole bunch of new stratagems added on to the base codex
Bolded for emphasis.
-Successor Chapter buildabear chapter rules that allow you to get the bonuses and doctrines of one of the base chapters (meaning basically if you like the super-goodies of a chapter but don't like the CT rule, you can just swap that gak and have 11" flamers or whatever)
Guess where these are found...
Additionally, some aspects of the CT rules aren't present--"Stealthy", for example, does not grant the -1 to be hit while in cover that the RG trait bestows on infantry.
-Super doctrines for each chapter, adding extra rules/extra AP on top of the usual -1AP bonus
-A new psychic discipline for each chapter
-relics, strats, and wl traits for each chapter
First time you've actually mentioned something in one of the supplements!
And CSMs are getting:
-Relics, strats, and wl traits for each legion
And that's more or less the same to you?
Reading is fundamental.
You'd have an argument if, say, we were talking six pages of relics for the supplements, six pages of warlord traits, no name generators, yadda yadda yadda.
As it stands?
Daemon Weapons seems to have taken the place of the "Special Issue Wargear"(which is intended to allow for a Successor Chapter to take advantage of) that the supplement books come with, you get half as many Stratagems as the supplement books, but the rest looks to be about on par.
How are people surprised that the Crusader Squad is in the book?? We knew that was coming already! Were you seriously hoping they'd force every Black Templars player to rip off all the chainsword and bolt pistol arms from their Marines?
Red Corsair wrote: Index chaos,
Codex CSM,
CA17,
CA18,
Vigilus Ablaze,
Codex CSM 2.0,
PA Faith and Fury,
CA19
8 sources in just over 3 years to play a single faction is insane. Especially when you realize the Chaos Codex is still busted and in need of a 9th attempt
Didn't you forget shadowspear booklet?
That had traits in it aswell and was used to invalidated old obliterators.
So that would be the 10th if anything.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: How are people surprised that the Crusader Squad is in the book?? We knew that was coming already! Were you seriously hoping they'd force every Black Templars player to rip off all the chainsword and bolt pistol arms from their Marines?
I don't think anyone is - given that most Marine Chapters have signature units its a pity that GW is so constrained by the no models rule that they can not be represented except on the priverlaged Chapters.
Red Corsair wrote: Index chaos, Codex CSM, CA17, CA18, Vigilus Ablaze, Codex CSM 2.0, PA Faith and Fury, CA19
8 sources in just over 3 years to play a single faction is insane. Especially when you realize the Chaos Codex is still busted and in need of a 9th attempt
While I certainly that anymore than ONE source for a single faction is too many, I think you are exaggerating by saying you need 8. 4-5 maybe but since CA19 replaces CA18 which replaced CA17, that's 2 less sources right there. Same with Codex CSM 2.0 replacing Codex CSM.
And many people ignore the Index at this point in 8E, so if we do the same, we are really just looking at:
That's still too many sources, but considering there isn't a single faction that has a single source in 8E (IIRC), it's not exactly "unfair" compared to others
AlmightyWalrus wrote: How are people surprised that the Crusader Squad is in the book?? We knew that was coming already! Were you seriously hoping they'd force every Black Templars player to rip off all the chainsword and bolt pistol arms from their Marines?
I don't think anyone is - given that most Marine Chapters have signature units its a pity that GW is so constrained by the no models rule that they can not be represented except on the priverlaged Chapters.
Crusader Squads do have models though - that's why the Chapter Upgrade Sprue from 4th edition (?) exists. If it didn't already exist Crusader Squads would probably have been pruned already.
Marshal Loss wrote: If Kor Phaeron appears on-screen and is not simply directing the fleet form Sicarus, this will be his first ever actual appearance in non-Heresy lore
And quite possibly the last. No model = no plot armor.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: How are people surprised that the Crusader Squad is in the book?? We knew that was coming already! Were you seriously hoping they'd force every Black Templars player to rip off all the chainsword and bolt pistol arms from their Marines?
I don't think anyone is - given that most Marine Chapters have signature units its a pity that GW is so constrained by the no models rule that they can not be represented except on the priverlaged Chapters.
Crusader Squads do have models though - that's why the Chapter Upgrade Sprue from 4th edition (?) exists. If it didn't already exist Crusader Squads would probably have been pruned already.
yes thats my point - its sad that everything revolves around the no models rule - well except for Grandmaster Babycarriers
Galas wrote: the Tau Empire is literally Plato's Republic in action
You just spent a paragraph describing them as Imperial Rome circa 100 BCE onward though
They work as the Roman Empire in how they are run as an empire, expansion and military wise, and their interactions with the auxiliar races, but their society is Plato's Republic: From the caste of Wise Men, to the Military caste that even has planified reproduction, to the more free earth caste, etc...
the_scotsman wrote: Eldar PA book had what, 20 pages of rules total? Most of which were a full copy-paste from an already printed white dwarf article?
60 pages of rules in the first book where we have power armored factions again
Also, good to see new rules content for Codex: Space Marines. That faction was really forgotten and languishing, I'm glad they get another half-dozen warlord traits, relics and stratagems to use, they didn't have enough.
Marshal Loss wrote: If Kor Phaeron appears on-screen and is not simply directing the fleet form Sicarus, this will be his first ever actual appearance in non-Heresy lore
And quite possibly the last. No model = no plot armor.
Yeah he'll probably get decked by a random Primaris Lieutenant
the_scotsman wrote: Eldar PA book had what, 20 pages of rules total? Most of which were a full copy-paste from an already printed white dwarf article?
60 pages of rules in the first book where we have power armored factions again
Also, good to see new rules content for Codex: Space Marines. That faction was really forgotten and languishing, I'm glad they get another half-dozen warlord traits, relics and stratagems to use, they didn't have enough.
All day this.
An Englishman and Scotsman walk into a Bugmans' bar.
Any GW staff drinking nearby quickly shuffle outside.
the_scotsman wrote: Eldar PA book had what, 20 pages of rules total? Most of which were a full copy-paste from an already printed white dwarf article?
60 pages of rules in the first book where we have power armored factions again
Also, good to see new rules content for Codex: Space Marines. That faction was really forgotten and languishing, I'm glad they get another half-dozen warlord traits, relics and stratagems to use, they didn't have enough.
All day this.
An Englishman and Scotsman walk into a Bugmans' bar.
Any GW staff drinking nearby quickly shuffle outside.
Galas wrote: the Tau Empire is literally Plato's Republic in action
You just spent a paragraph describing them as Imperial Rome circa 100 BCE onward though
They work as the Roman Empire in how they are run as an empire, expansion and military wise, and their interactions with the auxiliar races, but their society is Plato's Republic: From the caste of Wise Men, to the Military caste that even has planified reproduction, to the more free earth caste, etc...
Ah ok I see. I suppose there's nothing stopping GW making them both Republic and Empire simultaneously.
Marshal Loss wrote: If Kor Phaeron appears on-screen and is not simply directing the fleet form Sicarus, this will be his first ever actual appearance in non-Heresy lore
And quite possibly the last. No model = no plot armor.
Yeah he'll probably get decked by a random Primaris Lieutenant
Or a Black TemplarsTMPrimaris ChaplainTM with the Master of SanctityTM stratagem!
the_scotsman wrote: Eldar PA book had what, 20 pages of rules total? Most of which were a full copy-paste from an already printed white dwarf article?
60 pages of rules in the first book where we have power armored factions again
Also, good to see new rules content for Codex: Space Marines. That faction was really forgotten and languishing, I'm glad they get another half-dozen warlord traits, relics and stratagems to use, they didn't have enough.
All day this.
An Englishman and Scotsman walk into a Bugmans' bar.
Any GW staff drinking nearby quickly shuffle outside.
Very good, you actually made me lol.
Well played incalculable intelligence from beyond the stars...well played.
off for all they really care, unless it's the flavor of the month, then all other factions don't matter as much. it'd be great if they gave the same amount of support, even if it's not removing units from codices, as imperial counterparts. it's only fair to expect what loyalists get. but some people it seems want their advantages, while not giving any to anyone else. it's the mark of a 
