As pointed out, this is from a video game, not canon material. However, let's assume this is in fact canon, and Tau do practice state-enforced birth control for conquered species, that's still nowhere near the same level of hate towards human life that Imperium displays on regular basis.
I see we've entered into the "degrees of genocide" portion of our internet scream fest.
As pointed out, this is from a video game, not canon material. However, let's assume this is in fact canon, and Tau do practice state-enforced birth control for conquered species, that's still nowhere near the same level of hate towards human life that Imperium displays on regular basis.
I see we've entered into the "degrees of genocide" portion of our internet scream fest.
Tau do it with a smile, then a gun, Imperium forgoes the smile....still the same thing.
As pointed out, this is from a video game, not canon material. However, let's assume this is in fact canon, and Tau do practice state-enforced birth control for conquered species, that's still nowhere near the same level of hate towards human life that Imperium displays on regular basis.
I see we've entered into the "degrees of genocide" portion of our internet scream fest.
As pointed out, this is from a video game, not canon material. However, let's assume this is in fact canon, and Tau do practice state-enforced birth control for conquered species, that's still nowhere near the same level of hate towards human life that Imperium displays on regular basis.
I see we've entered into the "degrees of genocide" portion of our internet scream fest.
Tau do it with a smile, then a gun, Imperium forgoes the smile....still the same thing.
The only good guys are the Cabal.
Nah, Necrons
Just welcome your new Robotic overlords. I joke, of course...we all know its Orks.
I mean, they are the purest form of meritocracy. Don't want to get krumped? Just get stronger. Want to move up in life? Get stronger.
Kdash wrote: So, this points to the previous belief that Chaos won't be getting any points changes.
It does, however, remain to be seen what the "Champions of Ruin" section is all about, and whether it affects CSM in a similar way to "successors". Might just be a fluff introduction though.
Its one page. Whatever it is, and an introduction is most likely, it isn't going to do much. It certainly isn't going to pack 4+ datasheets.
Damn. That's... a lot of stuff for Marines. Guess that's the downside to being a new army that isn't out yet. No rules for you new Sisters... not yet anyway.
I mean we joke (some of us do anyway) about the Marines getting tons of stuff whereas everyone else gets gak. And here we are, after a Marine Codex and 6 supplements with another book filled with Marine rules. And the next book is about Blood Angels. Yikes...
the_scotsman wrote: Orks, Tau, Eldar, Harlequins, hell even Genestealer Cults and maybe Tyranids in general are closer to moral "good guys" than the imperium.
Hardly.
the_scotsman wrote: CWE and Harlequins are working to preserve their species, they simply do not view humans as intelligent life on the same tier as themselves, in much the same way as we humans would kill a gorilla (F to pay respect) if we thought it was threatening a child.
They view us as vermin that should be exterminated.
the_scotsman wrote: Tau are pretty much the same level of oppressive as the imperium, except that they will allow alien races to be subjugated rather than eradicated.
Assuming you say yes to their offer. Say no and they'll wipe you out.
the_scotsman wrote: Orks operate on an entirely different moral framework to humans, because fighting and war are entertainment and reproduction to them.
They still crave wanton destruction. They are inherently malevolent.
the_scotsman wrote: GSC are rebelling against a corrupt and evil empire. They are unwittingly inviting destruction, but do possess superior morals to the imperium despite that ignorance.
They're also brainwashing everyone into what is essentially a smaller-scale gestalt intelligence. Their "rebellion" is nothing but a dressed up form of alien invasion by way of genetic subversion.
the_scotsman wrote: And tyranids are just predatory animals acting on instinct.
You do a disservice to the very aware and very dangerous Hive Mind.
Damn. That's... a lot of stuff for Marines. Guess that's the downside to being a new army that isn't out yet. No rules for you new Sisters... not yet anyway.
Well its been so long since the Marines got stuff - oh wait its not.
Legit Info: Psychic Awakening ends with IoM losing and then 9th Edition hits post collapse of the IoM. With Space Marines + Imperium Forces forced into fleet based e.g. think human craftworlds/possible human webway usage. With more Primarchs Awakening with a dead Emperor. - Not Alpha Legion 2019.
Cronch wrote: Except the tau don't. Tau don't exterminate it's own citizens, Tau don't abandon their own citizens, and Tau care about the well being of their own citizens, and even their client races to a large extent. I can think of one instance of Tau forces going overboard against human opposition, and they got quickly slapped on the wrist by the Ethereal caste for acting too much like their human enemies. So no, they don't "do it".
Um, completely wrong. Look at Tau books by Phil Kelly (wasn't he promoted to GW lore director or something recently?) - they are terribad, but they are the only recent look at the Empire, and it isn't pretty. Space marines board colony ship full of innocent Tau civilians? Ethereal casually orders evacuation of everyone with high rank (and troops, we need to expand the Empire, after all) then orders self destruction of the ship, because astartes chapter is worth more to Imperium than a few million civilians to Empire, making it 'favorable trade'. And that was after Farsight estimated they can retake the ship, just with heavy losses in fire cadre (read - a few thousand at best).
As for extermination, hahahahaha, no. After fourth sphere expansion went bonkers due to submerging into the warp too deeply, they started slaughtering human (and other psychic) Tau empire citizens - because demons and other warp entities make them mad with fear and humans are tied to them. Guess what, no one cared. And that's not even considering FFGrpg books, where humans aligned with Tau are forced to become space Isis and blow themselves up with nuclear suicide belts in Imperial cities and near Imperial units to help Tau take over the sector. Such care, much wow
In fact, the mere continued existence of Tau proves the point that Imperium is wrong in all aspects. Despite being faced with older, meaner, and generally evil-acting races (except for Eldar, who just do eldar things), Tau expand and prosper, without resorting to all the things that Imperium resorts to (which, let's not forget, are also largely against Emperor's vision for humanity back before he became a chair).
Wrong again. Not only there are hints of Tau AI starting going Men of Iron path, the above fourth expansion made warp beings being aware of Tau and possibly created a greater daemon of greater good, something looking very much like proto-Slaanesh being fed emotions of billions of brainwashed beings Tau forced into singlemindedness. Guess how well this can potentially end?
Cronch wrote: Tau are nowhere near as bad as the Imperium. Imperium's policy towards any technological alien race is automatic destruction if possible. Tau will try to incorporate you by diplomacy first and then by force if they can, but they do give you the option for peaceful incorporation, and they won't genocide you if they win, they just make you a subject of the Ethereals.
Wrong. Imperium has vassal races, too. And besides, most of Imperium's interactions with xenos we see are with Tyranids and Orks, two species you can't negotiate with. Funnily enough, Tau have the exact same approach to both - exterminate on sight. Great difference, eh?
As for being subject to ethereals, it's far more vile and evil than anything Imperium did. In Kelly's books, Tau sculptor keeps (very illegal) pistol under her pillow, taking colossal risk - why? Because she was earth caste, and creative stuff was reserved to water caste only, under threat of lobotomization for 'caste crossing' and being made into something very much resembling servitor. Said Tau was so scared of this fate she kept pistol to disintegrate herself the first moment some outsider discovers her sculptures by accident. Sounds wonderful, eh?
The caste crossing is so terrible crime that even Farsight, commander of whole planet in the middle of Space Marine invasion isn't safe from it - after he pushed a reset button in his suit (earth caste task only) he was nearly made into servitor on the spot and only managed to escape it by doing something even worse to his mentor on ethereal's orders (see below).
Or let's take ethereal needing more commanders. His solution? Take his best officer, lobotomize him with help of his student, put his experience into a chip, then lobotomize dozens of young officers with said chips to give them his experience. Their brains can't cope with that and they will go mad eventually? Not a problem, ethereal ordered them all executed after the battle (save for Farsight's friend who was smuggled out). Even Imperium doesn't do this to their soldiers.
ThatMG wrote: Legit Info: Psychic Awakening ends with IoM losing and then 9th Edition hits post collapse of the IoM. With Space Marines + Imperium Forces forced into fleet based e.g. think human craftworlds/possible human webway usage. With more Primarchs Awakening with a dead Emperor. - Not Alpha Legion 2019.
What makes this legit? I highly doubt 40k 9th is gonna be battle star Galactica edition
ThatMG wrote: Legit Info: Psychic Awakening ends with IoM losing and then 9th Edition hits post collapse of the IoM. With Space Marines + Imperium Forces forced into fleet based e.g. think human craftworlds/possible human webway usage. With more Primarchs Awakening with a dead Emperor. - Not Alpha Legion 2019.
Not two months ago we had information saying how 40K is not an ongoing story, but is a setting, and that the Psychic Awakening isn't building to a new event, it's just telling a bunch of stories within the current status quo of the galaxy at large.
Looks like Blood of the Phoenix really didn't sell well at all (as many expected): Goblin Gaming in the UK still have over 100 copies and just sent out an email advertising 30% discount!
ThatMG wrote: Legit Info: Psychic Awakening ends with IoM losing and then 9th Edition hits post collapse of the IoM. With Space Marines + Imperium Forces forced into fleet based e.g. think human craftworlds/possible human webway usage. With more Primarchs Awakening with a dead Emperor. - Not Alpha Legion 2019.
What makes this legit? I highly doubt 40k 9th is gonna be battle star Galactica edition
ThatMG wrote: Legit Info: Psychic Awakening ends with IoM losing and then 9th Edition hits post collapse of the IoM. With Space Marines + Imperium Forces forced into fleet based e.g. think human craftworlds/possible human webway usage. With more Primarchs Awakening with a dead Emperor. - Not Alpha Legion 2019.
What makes this legit? I highly doubt 40k 9th is gonna be battle star Galactica edition
I was thinking more Battletech Franchise.
except you diodn't describe Battletech, at all. Humanity isn't running around on starships in Battletech, it's just been fractured into 5 (major) warring states fighting over the corpse of an intersteller empire. GW could do that with 40k, but not really sure there'd be any need to do it as the IoM is pretty fractured. and Battletech also didn't have aliens (and the Inner Sphere has a tendancy to unite, after a period of ineffective bickering) against outside threats, such as the clans or the Word of blake.
as for the space marine stuff, looking at what we're getting... I'm 90% sure this is mostly stuff that was removed from the codex due to lack of room. the chief libby strat we saw in the july white dwarf where we first saw an example of the custom chapter tactics. so GW's been sitting on that while.
Red Corsair wrote: Index chaos,
Codex CSM,
CA17,
CA18,
Vigilus Ablaze,
Codex CSM 2.0,
PA Faith and Fury,
CA19
8 sources in just over 3 years to play a single faction is insane. Especially when you realize the Chaos Codex is still busted and in need of a 9th attempt
While I certainly that anymore than ONE source for a single faction is too many, I think you are exaggerating by saying you need 8. 4-5 maybe but since CA19 replaces CA18 which replaced CA17, that's 2 less sources right there. Same with Codex CSM 2.0 replacing Codex CSM.
And many people ignore the Index at this point in 8E, so if we do the same, we are really just looking at:
That's still too many sources, but considering there isn't a single faction that has a single source in 8E (IIRC), it's not exactly "unfair" compared to others
-
None of that had to do with my point though. If you played chaos at the start of 8th edition, that is how many sources over time you would have been sold in order to remain current. That's incredible considering it's one faction among how many, nearly 30?
maybe on the other hand kvitching about having to buy a new book can be problematic, GW for whatever reason, decided chaos players would object to a new codex, but Vanilla marine players wou;dn't. the end result was CSM got a patch work 2nd codex, that was optional, there was nothing in it aside from the new stuff, if you bought Vigilius and dowlonaded the datacards, you could keep using your old codex, which meant GW didn't make changes to that codex. to the results we've seen. meanwhile the new Marine dex is required, not optional and well.. the results speak for themselves.
Me I don't mind buying a new codex if it actually means IMPROVEMENTS.
So more or less the same rules content as the supplement books is "basic lip service job to the legions"?
Coolcoolcool.
.
So, all the loyalists got:
-Effectively doubled chapter tactics for most chapters (most got an additional rule tacked on to their previous CT rule)
-CTs on all models including vehicles
-special doctrines adding -1 AP to whole categories of weapons
-A whole bunch of new stratagems added on to the base codex
-Successor Chapter buildabear chapter rules that allow you to get the bonuses and doctrines of one of the base chapters (meaning basically if you like the super-goodies of a chapter but don't like the CT rule, you can just swap that gak and have 11" flamers or whatever)
-Super doctrines for each chapter, adding extra rules/extra AP on top of the usual -1AP bonus
-A new psychic discipline for each chapter
-relics, strats, and wl traits for each chapter
And CSMs are getting:
-Relics, strats, and wl traits for each legion
And that's more or less the same to you?
So.... you are adding in what loyalists get from multiple books and comparing that to what CSM gets from just this one book? Am I reading that right? Seems a bit skewed doesn't it?
Ok so even if we accept your "it's ok sm got way more rules than anyone else because some of ours were in our NEW codex" argument (which I don't and I doubt very few other non sm players do) what about the rules disparity in this book?
Loyalist marines are getting the ability to "promote " their hqs for 1 command point giving them extra abilities. Csm don't get that IN THE SAME BOOK.
BrianDavion wrote: maybe on the other hand kvitching about having to buy a new book can be problematic, GW for whatever reason, decided chaos players would object to a new codex, but Vanilla marine players wou;dn't. the end result was CSM got a patch work 2nd codex, that was optional, there was nothing in it aside from the new stuff, if you bought Vigilius and dowlonaded the datacards, you could keep using your old codex, which meant GW didn't make changes to that codex. to the results we've seen. meanwhile the new Marine dex is required, not optional and well.. the results speak for themselves.
Me I don't mind buying a new codex if it actually means IMPROVEMENTS.
SM and CSM both seem to have major range replacements/expansions planned for Shadowspear. I wonder if the difference between CSM 2.0 and SM 2.0 was not that GW hates CSM, but that GW had been planning on going the SM supplement route already, which required a further rework of the base SM codex to fit, which led to a bigger revamp than just a compilation codex like CSM got. GW knows that they can sell SM supplements, I mean I still have the books for Clan Raukaan and Sentinels of Terra. It may have been the plan all along to go the full supplement route for SM after getting all the base codices out for 8th. The legion upgrades in PA2, while lesser than the full revamped chapter traits + supplements, are coming out quickly enough that GW probably decided to do it post CSM 1.5 codex while working on the SM 2.0 book. The rules content for the legions involved are similar to the actual rules content of most of the SM supplements (not equal, and not equivalent to the supplement plus base SM codex changes, true)
BrianDavion wrote: maybe on the other hand kvitching about having to buy a new book can be problematic, GW for whatever reason, decided chaos players would object to a new codex, but Vanilla marine players wou;dn't. the end result was CSM got a patch work 2nd codex, that was optional, there was nothing in it aside from the new stuff, if you bought Vigilius and dowlonaded the datacards, you could keep using your old codex, which meant GW didn't make changes to that codex. to the results we've seen. meanwhile the new Marine dex is required, not optional and well.. the results speak for themselves.
Me I don't mind buying a new codex if it actually means IMPROVEMENTS.
SM and CSM both seem to have major range replacements/expansions planned for Shadowspear. I wonder if the difference between CSM 2.0 and SM 2.0 was not that GW hates CSM, but that GW had been planning on going the SM supplement route already, which required a further rework of the base SM codex to fit, which led to a bigger revamp than just a compilation codex like CSM got. GW knows that they can sell SM supplements, I mean I still have the books for Clan Raukaan and Sentinels of Terra. It may have been the plan all along to go the full supplement route for SM after getting all the base codices out for 8th. The legion upgrades in PA2, while lesser than the full revamped chapter traits + supplements, are coming out quickly enough that GW probably decided to do it post CSM 1.5 codex while working on the SM 2.0 book. The rules content for the legions involved are similar to the actual rules content of most of the SM supplements (not equal, and not equivalent to the supplement plus base SM codex changes, true)
well we've got a bit of a timeline we can use here.
Shadowspear (first Look at New CSM sculpts and new Phobos stuff) - early March 2019
Vigilus Ablaze with Black Legion supplement And new CSM codex and units- Late March 2019
July White Dwarf (Index Blood Ravens, our first look at custom chapter tactics and the chief libby strat)
Codex Space Marines/UM and WS supplemets - early Aug 2019
PA2 (with black templars supplement, chaos marine supplements and chapter command rules) - late Nov 2019
so that's the timeline. we can't be 100% sure, but it would seem given the blod ravens rules that the chapter command rules we see in PA2 where being planned for as early as July. and withheld for psykic awakening 2.
ThatMG wrote: Legit Info: Psychic Awakening ends with IoM losing and then 9th Edition hits post collapse of the IoM. With Space Marines + Imperium Forces forced into fleet based e.g. think human craftworlds/possible human webway usage. With more Primarchs Awakening with a dead Emperor. - Not Alpha Legion 2019.
In two weeks, faeit will post this as rumors from an anonymous source.
Alpharius wrote: Did the Psychic Awakening Book 1 stuff contain any major background reveals?
Did Jain Zar or Dark Eldar Murder Man supreme ‘win’?
Did anything of note happen?
-Dark Eldar mostly continue to dislike Ynarri
-Slaanesh Daemons and especially Shalaxi Hellbane are super overpowered, in hilarious contrast to their rules in the actual game
-Plan A from the novels and end times-style books leading into 8th is no longer viable (can't collect all the crone swords)
-Drazar and Jain Zarr fight; Drazar is better but Jain levels the playing field by learning cool Ynarri ninja death moves
Really, I think that's it. As someone posted, it is a very odd narrative. Even less happens than the Vigilus books.
Also, it is revealed that Slaanesh stole the 5th cronesword away, never to be reached by Yvraine (it's not even part of the narrative, we learn this in a random side note). So the Ynnari's epic quest to unite the five cronesword ended abruptly only one book after they found the first four swords in Fracture of Biel-Tan!?
The developments or characters from Gav Thorpe`s Ynnari novels aren't even mentioned. Where was Meliniel, the former Biel-Tan Autarch who can transform into an Avatar, Yvraine's second in command? And how about the idea that Yvraine, Eldrad and her other close allies might be incarnations of the Eldar gods?
I found the writing in Phoenix Rising really bad. Like Fracture of Biel-Tan level bad. The structure was really confusing, jumping back and forth, the aforementioned developments that never payed off, not much storyline progression except for setting up Shalaxi Hellbane as a super overpowered antagonist.
At this point I'm just thankful that they didn't blow up another Craftworld or kill off characters so that they don't have to do new models for them.
I mean they did kill the Visarch and Jain Zar but they were both revived like nothing ever happened.
The fluff was very poor. Since coming back into the hobby after the past few years, the change from setting to narrative has resulted in a nose-dive in terms of quality.
Honestly, the best fluff from the book was the map of the galaxy with the tid bits on what the other Craftworlds were up to. They're such short sentences they can't feth it up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
OrkPlayer137 wrote: Looks like Blood of the Phoenix really didn't sell well at all (as many expected): Goblin Gaming in the UK still have over 100 copies and just sent out an email advertising 30% discount!
Crazyterran wrote: Blood of the Phoenix not doing well means GW will think no one wants double Xenos boxes.
And that no one is interested in plastic Aspect Warriors. So not only will we get Imperials/Chaos as at least half of every box for the foreseeable future, but the rest of the Aspect Warrior units in desperate need of a revamp in plastic are now more likely to become "Legends" units rather than get that plastic update
Crazyterran wrote: Blood of the Phoenix not doing well means GW will think no one wants double Xenos boxes.
"well the pricing wasn't an issue at all right? Right?"
As much as I want to say there is no way they could be this oblivious, the actually case is likely that they would draw the conclusion they specifically want from it. A double Xeno box, in their mind, likely sells bad, so they "have to" jack up the price to account for it and presto, the box sells bad, GW leadership says, "told you so!"
It's nearly been explicitly stated that there is no internal impetus to make Xeno product, so it's easy to imagine they would ratify that with some sales data spuriously correlated. The whole problem of Xeno sales is probably something like a massive exercise in confirmation bias.
Crazyterran wrote: Blood of the Phoenix not doing well means GW will think no one wants double Xenos boxes.
"well the pricing wasn't an issue at all right? Right?"
As much as I want to say there is no way they could be this oblivious, the actually case is likely that they would draw the conclusion they specifically want from it. A double Xeno box, in their mind, likely sells bad, so they "have to" jack up the price to account for it and presto, the box sells bad, GW leadership says, "told you so!"
It's nearly been explicitly stated that there is no internal impetus to make Xeno product, so it's easy to imagine they would ratify that with some sales data spuriously correlated. The whole problem of Xeno sales is probably something like a massive exercise in confirmation bias.
Until Custommer survivey literally shakes them awake, (SoB.)
Gw , one would think, should have learnt by now that deinvestment cycles are NOT going to make factions popular.
Alpharius wrote: Did the Psychic Awakening Book 1 stuff contain any major background reveals?
Did Jain Zar or Dark Eldar Murder Man supreme ‘win’?
Did anything of note happen?
-Dark Eldar mostly continue to dislike Ynarri
-Slaanesh Daemons and especially Shalaxi Hellbane are super overpowered, in hilarious contrast to their rules in the actual game
-Plan A from the novels and end times-style books leading into 8th is no longer viable (can't collect all the crone swords)
-Drazar and Jain Zarr fight; Drazar is better but Jain levels the playing field by learning cool Ynarri ninja death moves
Really, I think that's it. As someone posted, it is a very odd narrative. Even less happens than the Vigilus books.
It was also revealed that since the great rift opened the abilities of the Aeldari have been buffed. Striking Scorpions being able to make themselves invisible like Corax did, Warlocks and Farseers being able to cast more powerful spells and such.
Not Online!!! wrote: Until Custommer survivey literally shakes them awake, (SoB.) Gw , one would think, should have learnt by now that deinvestment cycles are NOT going to make factions popular.
Yet GW does it again.
Yeah and although it is likely only when the results just so happens to align with some other "internal" impetus.
Personally, I think the "real" reason we got SoB in plastic is because GW's push to remove resin and metal as we move forward meant either Squat the army or push out plastics. There probably was some internal feeling that a Squat-move wasn't going to go over well and the survey was "used" to "justify" the "revamp" side's case. I just doubt the survey was the impetus in-itself, rather, it is probably just another case of confirmation bias.
People have been writing in about Tomb King or plastic Thunder Hawks for years, but none of that actually aligns with any internal impetus on the part of GW. It's likely confirmation bias all the way down.
And before the flood of, "that's stupid!" or "GW would never do that!" or "that doesn't make any sense!" this is strictly just my opinion, my interpretation of the matter, not an attempt to claim any fact of the matter.
The post above mine is a wonderful example of why GW likely chose to be so public with the development process.
They could say "Guys, we have something coming--be patient!" and posters like that will assume it means "THERE'S NO ACTUAL CARE FOR THE FACTION!" or whatever hyperbolic nonsense they choose to purvey.
Kanluwen wrote: They could say "Guys, we have something coming--be patient!" and posters like that will assume it means "THERE'S NO ACTUAL CARE FOR THE FACTION!" or whatever hyperbolic nonsense they choose to purvey.
That would be 100% the correct way of reacting, because of GW's track record on the subject! They built this.
Kanluwen wrote: I really wish people would stop pretending that the Community Survey was the impetus for continuing forward with plastic Sisters.
It was the impetus for them being so abnormally public with the development, certainly.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I seem to remember news letters addressing the subject basically say outright that it was the survey which brought GW around to the sisters.
So BT get 'Ere We Go except with a extra effect. Already better than Orks at a glance, it seems. Personally I would have preferred to see a return of that 3rd ed rule where if the unit takes damage they walk forward, but that's just my nostalgia, really.
They also get half of the Necron Immortal Pride trait...sort of. Its better at denying, but it doesn't have the fearless bubble. So that's fine.
The Fires of Devotion effect sounds familiar, but I can't quite place it. Seems like a cool rule, if a bit situational, so that's fine.
No Neophytes though? That's a pity if so. Mixed squads of Initiates and Neophytes was a fun little quirk of the Templars.
Yeah I reread it. So its only really better than Orks.
Not really, because orks get 'ere we go, DakkaDakkaDakka and a culture on top of that, which 5 out of 7 times is better than the assault doctrine and ignore mortal wounds combined.
Started with them getting rolled into the SM coded years ago and I said Primaris, if GW were taking Black Templars seriously they'd have updated the classic units to Primaris models. They haven't done so unfortunately.
Started with them getting rolled into the SM coded years ago and I said Primaris, if GW were taking Black Templars seriously they'd have updated the classic units to Primaris models. They haven't done so unfortunately.
Given how terrible Primaris CC units are, and how mediocre Primaris in general have been until just recently, I have a hard time taking that seriously- especially since no one has specialized or classic Primaris units.
If you want Primaris BT units, nothing stops you from taking them. The veteran interecessors with a pile of attacks each and autowounding on 6s should work just fine.
We know not every marine is made equal but the rules writter that tought that a 6 to hit auto scores a wound in Assault Doctrine is in the same playing field as ignore penalties for moving and reroll 1's with Heavy weapons in Devastator Doctrine, I'm sure is the same guy that tought a +6" range to Leadbelchers is equivalent as a subfaction bonus to +1 Save to your whole army.
I would have been fine with the Emperor's Champion being an upgrade to a Lieutenant(Primaris Lieutenant included). The points are about the same. The added cost of some CP would even that out a bit. I dunno.
Galas wrote: We know not every marine is made equal but the rules writter that tought that a 6 to hit auto scores a wound in Assault Doctrine is in the same playing field as ignore penalties for moving and reroll 1's with Heavy weapons in Devastator Doctrine, I'm sure is the same guy that tought a +6" range to Leadbelchers is equivalent as a subfaction bonus to +1 Save to your whole army.
This is why I feel like it's so crazy for people to say, "GW favors marines".
BT shows GW was looking to create fluffy rules and they got some silly ideas in their heads and didn't weigh them all out. I don't think this is a bad rule at all. It just isn't as fancy. Given the rerolls to charge BT could be a great turn 2 drop pod army.
GW does favor marines. If they didn't, this could've been a xenos release instead of releasing 3rd-grade SM chapter. But it also happens that GW has little to no idea or interest in BTs, so they get xenos-grade release.
Cronch wrote: GW does favor marines. If they didn't, this could've been a xenos release instead of releasing 3rd-grade SM chapter. But it also happens that GW has little to no idea or interest in BTs, so they get xenos-grade release.
I think the simpler explanation is they screw up (more of than not recently) rather than circular logic, in which the end result is the same so it doesn't matter.
I guess the only reason I care about the distinction is because I get aggravated at reading silly conspiracy theories and this pervasive logic helps create them.
People that have worked at GW have flat stated that the company has made rules in order to push the sales of models. There were multiple examples that we can all see actually happened. Its not really a conspiracy theory is it?
If you can't see the ebb and flow of powerful units to nerfed units and how they influence sales you are either incredibly naive or a relatively new hobbyist.
Alpharius wrote: It would be odd indeed if there are no special/new/upgraded Primaris units for BTs, wouldn't it?
No, it wouldn't.
It's only odd in this weird reality we find ourselves in where GW has thrown so many models at SM players in general that the expectations of a fringe faction of SM are larger than the expectations of a xenos faction.
The odd thing is that SM have had so many releases to this point and still their players expect more. That is odd.
And that's why A) primaris had garbage rules for years and three rounds of buffs were needed to make them passable, B) they still don't have Start Collecting box after three years, C) idiotic proliferation of D2 on stuff where it made no sense whatsoever worked to make primaris pointless again despite aboce half assed buffs, D) primaris melee option access other than on Intercessor sarge is still utter garbage, E) Space Marines as a faction languished with bad rules for 2.5 years, on top of said bad rules applying only to infantry, not to vehicles unlike all the other books, because uh... favoritism?
Mental gymnastics and confirmation bias of non-SM armies, most of which being far better than SM for multiple editions now, will never cease to amaze me...
Alpharius wrote: It would be odd indeed if there are no special/new/upgraded Primaris units for BTs, wouldn't it?
No?
Only Ultramarines got that with the addition of the Victrix Honor Guard. Everyone else got a single character.
Victrix guard appered first in vigilius defiant, not the supplement. when the supplement dropped Ultramarines only got a new Primaris character. Calgar and his bodyguards having come prior.
Word Bearers are condemned to suffer. At least Iron Warriors have an amazing warlord trait, and the World Eaters and Emperors Children have semi-decent troops; Word Bearers have *nothing*. Even casuals can't deny their trait is bad; it's literally the only army trait in the game that harms you.
All it would take to make the CSM Legions better would be to convert the Horus Heresy Legion rules; it can't be that hard. Then for the Renegade Chapters, just build some sort of customisation option. It wouldn't take long; I would be fine if it was just copy and paste stuff at this point.
Latro_ wrote: also had to be BT first didn't it, another day to wait for the chaos stuff ugh
if you look at the previews we've already gotten, and then the table of contents they've previewed you can proably understand why. I'd be willing to be that tomorrow we'll see a word bearer's and night lords preview, thursday we'll see Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors, and friday we'll see World Eater's and Emperor's children.
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blood reaper wrote: Word Bearers are condemned to suffer. At least Iron Warriors have an amazing warlord trait, and the World Eaters and Emperors Children have semi-decent troops; Word Bearers have *nothing*. Even casuals can't deny their trait is bad; it's literally the only army trait in the game that harms you.
All it would take to make the CSM Legions better would be to convert the Horus Heresy Legion rules; it can't be that hard. Then for the Renegade Chapters, just build some sort of customisation option. It wouldn't take long; I would be fine if it was just copy and paste stuff at this point.
it's possiable word bearers will get some warlord traits and relics in this book that'll make em a "not completely worthless" choice. fingers crossed
Alpharius wrote: It would be odd indeed if there are no special/new/upgraded Primaris units for BTs, wouldn't it?
No?
Only Ultramarines got that with the addition of the Victrix Honor Guard. Everyone else got a single character.
Victrix guard appered first in vigilius defiant, not the supplement. when the supplement dropped Ultramarines only got a new Primaris character. Calgar and his bodyguards having come prior.
Yes, and? You'll notice I said nothing about them getting it with the supplement.
Victrix Guard are still Ultramarines only. Doesn't matter if they came with Vigilus Defiant or the Ultramarines Supplement. No other Chapter has, as of yet, received a unique Primaris unit.
More's the pity too, because Shrike would have been a perfect frigging place for one given that he's the only other Chapter Master that has been Primaris'd so far.
I think GW has figured out new marine models will sell initially regardless of the rules. Collectors/garage players will buy new boxes of marines regardless of the rules.
Same thing with marine rules. Codexes, supplements, campaign books...New marine stuff sells regardless of competitive balance. Once that initial rush is over then you tune the rules to get the rest of the inventory out of the warehouse.
The NPC factions need rules to move old models since I doubt new models sell as well as new marine models. Rules move xenos, fanbois move marines?
Considering how much people have complained about GW getting rid of Oldmarines and replacing them with Primaris, I actually think the Black Templars retaining their unique oldmarine units and not getting new Primaris stuff is a good sign.
And that's why A) primaris had garbage rules for years and three rounds of buffs were needed to make them passable, B) they still don't have Start Collecting box after three years, C) idiotic proliferation of D2 on stuff where it made no sense whatsoever worked to make primaris pointless again despite aboce half assed buffs, D) primaris melee option access other than on Intercessor sarge is still utter garbage, E) Space Marines as a faction languished with bad rules for 2.5 years, on top of said bad rules applying only to infantry, not to vehicles unlike all the other books, because uh... favoritism?
Mental gymnastics and confirmation bias of non-SM armies, most of which being far better than SM for multiple editions now, will never cease to amaze me...
Lol, are you seriously trying to deny that SM are not quite obviously the favoured faction of 40k as far as GW is concerned? Are you serious? If not them, then who? They have had more releases than entire general groups (eg - xenos) of factions combined REMOVED.
An Actual Englishman wrote: People that have worked at GW have flat stated that the company has made rules in order to push the sales of models. There were multiple examples that we can all see actually happened. Its not really a conspiracy theory is it?
If you can't see the ebb and flow of powerful units to nerfed units and how they influence sales you are either incredibly naive or a relatively new hobbyist.
Yea, that's a funny thing. You even insinuated that GW had somehow manipulated people into buying Smasha Guns when they hadn't changed anything about Smasha Guns at all - and nevermind that kit makes several guns, but they only want you using Smasha, right? Someone decided to spam them and it caught on, but that's somehow a conspiracy perpetrated by GW.
And the thread that people like to reference - let's actually read what he said:
The Eldar codex was designed at a time when we were told to make things a) exciting and interesting and b) reflect the narrative at all costs.
That's a lot different than make this unit over powered for sales, isn't it?
He also says:
and someone in a position of authority (who has since left0 said "I love it, but don't increase any points values.
So there's one person, presumably not marketing, controlling the fate of GW? During a time they were "making things exciting and interesting" and "reflecting the narrative". The poster insinuates:
Because, obviously, that means people need fewer models, see?
This, again, is not making models overpowered for sales. What grasp do you think this person had about how the rules really worked? I'd bet you they never put it on the table.
And he finished with this:
As I say, though those days are over
So you'll hang on every interpretation that suits your narrative and totally ignore that he said those days are over -- on Dec 15th 2017. But here we are -- contesting that GW is actively abusing rules for sales.
This doesn't mean marines aren't strong or whatever. It just means they screwed up and someone on the design team has a bad grasp of the way the rules work. They "made things exciting and interesting" again. They didn't conspire to screw over customers.
In fairness, Space Marines have been fairly subpar most of the edition competitively. That doesn't mean they haven't gotten a ton of new releases and that GW doesn't heavily favor them from a product standpoint. There's just little to suggest the devs favor them from a power standpoint. Realistically, the truth is probably that the devs favor them enough that they get playtested to a fair standard, while other neglected factions have stuff that isn't properly tested and slips through over the curve.
And that's why A) primaris had garbage rules for years and three rounds of buffs were needed to make them passable, B) they still don't have Start Collecting box after three years, C) idiotic proliferation of D2 on stuff where it made no sense whatsoever worked to make primaris pointless again despite aboce half assed buffs, D) primaris melee option access other than on Intercessor sarge is still utter garbage, E) Space Marines as a faction languished with bad rules for 2.5 years, on top of said bad rules applying only to infantry, not to vehicles unlike all the other books, because uh... favoritism?
Mental gymnastics and confirmation bias of non-SM armies, most of which being far better than SM for multiple editions now, will never cease to amaze me...
Behold the density of SM and non-SM releases. Marines and Eldar existed for roughly the same time. Space Marines have 113 entries on GW store, while Craftworld have 61, almost 2x fewer. Even CSM have only 65. And I know some of those will be stuff like shoulder pad packs, but it's still showing clearly who's getting the limelight.
And that's why A) primaris had garbage rules for years and three rounds of buffs were needed to make them passable, B) they still don't have Start Collecting box after three years, C) idiotic proliferation of D2 on stuff where it made no sense whatsoever worked to make primaris pointless again despite aboce half assed buffs, D) primaris melee option access other than on Intercessor sarge is still utter garbage, E) Space Marines as a faction languished with bad rules for 2.5 years, on top of said bad rules applying only to infantry, not to vehicles unlike all the other books, because uh... favoritism?
Mental gymnastics and confirmation bias of non-SM armies, most of which being far better than SM for multiple editions now, will never cease to amaze me...
Are you in denail that Marines do not get a constant, relentless and overwhelming series of model and rules releases
As a sub faction of the Imperium compared to actual full Xenos factions - they have how many models? how Many Stats, how mnay Codexes, how many supplements.....
They even managed to squeeze out the Chaos Legions (and anyone else apparently) in the new book just so they cram in another TEN PAGES of new rules, strats, relics for MARINES. AND then lets make it all about Black Templars - can;t thnk of another Imperial sub faction in the trailer that is also all about Faith.
And before the But but "Sisters are getting a new Dex m'kay" - MARINES JUST HAD ONE and are still being lavished with new stuff - its fething endless
An Actual Englishman wrote: People that have worked at GW have flat stated that the company has made rules in order to push the sales of models. There were multiple examples that we can all see actually happened. Its not really a conspiracy theory is it?
If you can't see the ebb and flow of powerful units to nerfed units and how they influence sales you are either incredibly naive or a relatively new hobbyist.
Yea, that's a funny thing. You even insinuated that GW had somehow manipulated people into buying Smasha Guns when they hadn't changed anything about Smasha Guns at all - and nevermind that kit makes several guns, but they only want you using Smasha, right? Someone decided to spam them and it caught on, but that's somehow a conspiracy perpetrated by GW.
And the thread that people like to reference - let's actually read what he said:
The Eldar codex was designed at a time when we were told to make things a) exciting and interesting and b) reflect the narrative at all costs.
That's a lot different than make this unit over powered for sales, isn't it?
He also says:
and someone in a position of authority (who has since left0 said "I love it, but don't increase any points values.
So there's one person, presumably not marketing, controlling the fate of GW? During a time they were "making things exciting and interesting" and "reflecting the narrative". The poster insinuates:
Because, obviously, that means people need fewer models, see?
This, again, is not making models overpowered for sales. What grasp do you think this person had about how the rules really worked? I'd bet you they never put it on the table.
And he finished with this:
As I say, though those days are over
So you'll hang on every interpretation that suits your narrative and totally ignore that he said those days are over -- on Dec 15th 2017. But here we are -- contesting that GW is actively abusing rules for sales.
This doesn't mean marines aren't strong or whatever. It just means they screwed up and someone on the design team has a bad grasp of the way the rules work. They "made things exciting and interesting" again. They didn't conspire to screw over customers.
Except of course that the top brass, suits, are very willing to intervene for the bottomline.
IN essence, do you really think that it is not anymore the case?
An Actual Englishman wrote: People that have worked at GW have flat stated that the company has made rules in order to push the sales of models. There were multiple examples that we can all see actually happened. Its not really a conspiracy theory is it?
If you can't see the ebb and flow of powerful units to nerfed units and how they influence sales you are either incredibly naive or a relatively new hobbyist.
Yea, that's a funny thing. You even insinuated that GW had somehow manipulated people into buying Smasha Guns when they hadn't changed anything
They changed point values massively for the kmk (the previously OP Mek gun) to incentivise sales of Smasha Guns (as they are now the OP choice). E - and the kit just so happens to be the most expensive Ork kit point for point. It also can make 1 (one) gun, not a variety without magnetisation. Why are you so defensive and how are you so blind to this?!
Are you seriously so deluded that you believe that a)rules don't affect sales, b)GW don't know this and c)exploit it to maximise their profits? You can't be so naive. Have you been playing and following 8th at all (I know you have)? The Castellan. The Ad Mech HQ. The Ad Mech tank. The new SM codex and supplements. Disco Lords. Repulsors when first launched. IFF. The nurgle tree. The new slaanesh stuff. Much of the nee GSC stuff when initially launched. How many more examples do you need of recent products released that were/are very, very "aggressively" pointed?
Your five sub par Ork buggies don't explain away the many counterexamples that can easily be raised against them. They are the exception rather than the norm.
As to your quoting of the AMA, you've taken so much of it out it lacks context and sense. We both know what the employee was saying, whether you like it or not.
The rules team and marketing are separate. The truth is yes GW is using rules to push sales. But not by making the new ones the new hotness, rather they realize that balance makes more sales. They don’t care what model you buy so long as you buy a GW model.
An Actual Englishman wrote: People that have worked at GW have flat stated that the company has made rules in order to push the sales of models. There were multiple examples that we can all see actually happened. Its not really a conspiracy theory is it?
If you can't see the ebb and flow of powerful units to nerfed units and how they influence sales you are either incredibly naive or a relatively new hobbyist.
Yea, that's a funny thing. You even insinuated that GW had somehow manipulated people into buying Smasha Guns when they hadn't changed anything
They changed point values massively for the kmk (the previously OP Mek gun) to incentivise sales of Smasha Guns (as they are now the OP choice). E - and the kit just so happens to be the most expensive Ork kit point for point. It also can make 1 (one) gun, not a variety without magnetisation. Why are you so defensive and how are you so blind to this?!
Are you seriously so deluded that you believe that a)rules don't affect sales, b)GW don't know this and c)exploit it to maximise their profits? You can't be so naive. Have you been playing and following 8th at all (I know you have)? The Castellan. The Ad Mech HQ. The Ad Mech tank. The new SM codex and supplements. Disco Lords. Repulsors when first launched. IFF. The nurgle tree. The new slaanesh stuff. Much of the nee GSC stuff when initially launched. How many more examples do you need of recent products released that were/are very, very "aggressively" pointed?
Your five sub par Ork buggies don't explain away the many counterexamples that can easily be raised against them. They are the exception rather than the norm.
As to your quoting of the AMA, you've taken so much of it out it lacks context and sense. We both know what the employee was saying, whether you like it or not.
Yes, they can't ever raise points on a unit otherwise it's to push sales. That's such a really silly position to take. And they can't lower points, because it's to push sales! You think GW is completely incompetent at rules, but they're somehow so savvy that they know nerfing something will magically push sales to the next unit they they've intended? Are we ALSO ignoring that the KMK went from D3 damage to D6 damage? Do you mean to tell me GW gave the KMK a buff, but a buff that was juuuust bad enough to make the KMK not worth it?
Some how a weapon that gets D6 S8 AP3 DD6 shots isn't worth (slightly less than) three times as much as something that gets ONE AP4 DD6 shot that has a 42% chance to wound T8 and 58% to wound T7 ? Or could it just be people prefer the cheaper option to make spamming a gak ton of T5 W6 battalion fillers with decent guns? GW totally sucks at rules, but they were capable of figuring this out?
Disco lords are doing nothing now. And they didn't even get nerfed. And you're ignoring the HUGE laundry list of new unused units. Where are the new primaris units? It's almost all Centurions. You mean to tell me GW produced brand new kits and decided, "naaaah we really want to sell all these older kits even though we have these new ones all boxed up!".
GW. The genius manipulator! Terrible at rules.
No. The common theme is incompetence. Not conspiracy.
And that's why A) primaris had garbage rules for years and three rounds of buffs were needed to make them passable, B) they still don't have Start Collecting box after three years, C) idiotic proliferation of D2 on stuff where it made no sense whatsoever worked to make primaris pointless again despite aboce half assed buffs, D) primaris melee option access other than on Intercessor sarge is still utter garbage, E) Space Marines as a faction languished with bad rules for 2.5 years, on top of said bad rules applying only to infantry, not to vehicles unlike all the other books, because uh... favoritism?
Mental gymnastics and confirmation bias of non-SM armies, most of which being far better than SM for multiple editions now, will never cease to amaze me...
Are you in denail that Marines do not get a constant, relentless and overwhelming series of model and rules releases
Aside from the Start Collecting box he was quite clearly referring to rules rather than models. It's a good example that helps disprove the conspiracy theory of GW carefully crafting rules to push sales of specific model ranges, and indicates they simply don't fully understand what effects their rules will have. Only when GW took marines back to the drawing board and wrote a whole new codex did they become highly competitive, two years after the initial 8E release.
We do know, at the very least, that Games Workshop deliberately make certain kits OP to make more sales. It's not really of debate here. The question as to whether they would do it now? Well, yeah, they probably would.
Unless they let units charge from Land Raiders after the Land Raider moves (you know, like every other flipping edition!) the Land Raider stratagem is going to be borderline useless since charging from a Land Raider currently is an exercise in frustration.
Yes, they can't ever raise points on a unit otherwise it's to push sales. That's such a really silly position to take. And they can't lower points, because it's to push sales! You think GW is completely incompetent at rules, but they're somehow so savvy that they know nerfing something will magically push sales to the next unit they they've intended? Are we ALSO ignoring that the KMK went from D3 damage to D6 damage? Do you mean to tell me GW gave the KMK a buff, but a buff that was juuuust bad enough to make the KMK not worth it?
Have you finished strawmanning? I don’t think GW are incompetent at all. I think they know exactly what they are doing and they have been doing it for years. It’s a cycle, as I have said - bikes are strong one edition then weak the next, KMK is optimal in index then suboptimal for codex, Tac squads are strong one edition, weak others, Castellan is strong for a while until they have milked it so on and so forth. GW likely believe that some new models don’t actually need as good rules because people will buy them regardless. I have explained before why GW may want to push sales of older kits.
Disco lords are doing nothing now. And they didn't even get nerfed.
You are joking? Has the flawless host disappeared from the meta? Didn’t think so.
And you're ignoring the HUGE laundry list of new unused units. Where are the new primaris units? It's almost all Centurions. You mean to tell me GW produced brand new kits and decided, "naaaah we really want to sell all these older kits even though we have these new ones all boxed up!".
Again - are you joking? IFF, was he not a new marine release? How about those guys that prevent deep striking? Repulsor? The massive variety of Marine builds is exactly because they have so many strong units. It’s not ‘all centurions’ at all - you have decided this yourself.
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Unless they let units charge from Land Raiders after the Land Raider moves (you know, like every other flipping edition!) the Land Raider stratagem is going to be borderline useless since charging from a Land Raider currently is an exercise in frustration.
Didn’t all vehicles allow disembarking after moving in previous editions? Welcome to 8th.
Can you guys stop derailing the thread for a change? We've actually got News and Rumors to discuss - can you take GW's evil and/or incompetence elsewhere, please?
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Can you guys stop derailing the thread for a change? We've actually got News and Rumors to discuss - can you take GW's evil and/or incompetence elsewhere, please?
It’s not ‘evil’ - businesses exist to make money.
As to your point - have you not read the other 100+ pages of the thread? At this point 2-3 pages of N&R followed by 10 pages off topic is part of its roguish charm.
An Actual Englishman wrote: have you not read the other 100+ pages of the thread? At this point 2-3 pages of N&R followed by 10 pages off topic is part of its roguish charm.
No, it really isn't. Stay on topic is a rule here and whilst the conversation does tend to wander at times we do expect everyone to at least try to keep on topic, if you want to discuss tangents unrelated to the N&R then create a thread for them.
An Actual Englishman wrote: have you not read the other 100+ pages of the thread? At this point 2-3 pages of N&R followed by 10 pages off topic is part of its roguish charm.
No, it really isn't. Stay on topic is a rule here and whilst the conversation does tend to wander at times we do expect everyone to at least try to keep on topic, if you want to discuss tangents unrelated to the N&R then create a thread for them.
You might want to raise this with the countless others who have taken this thread off topic.
An Actual Englishman wrote: have you not read the other 100+ pages of the thread? At this point 2-3 pages of N&R followed by 10 pages off topic is part of its roguish charm.
No, it really isn't. Stay on topic is a rule here and whilst the conversation does tend to wander at times we do expect everyone to at least try to keep on topic, if you want to discuss tangents unrelated to the N&R then create a thread for them.
You might want to raise this with the countless others who have taken this thread off topic.
It is an in thread warning to everyone. Stay on topic.
Wish I had gotten a new unit, a new crusade squad, or a new Primaris Upgrade, but honestly getting Templar Rules at all means I'm gonna be in a better spot than what I was for years between 4th and 7th.
There's future releases that will come down the line, but I'm happy with what I've seen so far
blood reaper wrote: Word Bearers are condemned to suffer. At least Iron Warriors have an amazing warlord trait, and the World Eaters and Emperors Children have semi-decent troops; Word Bearers have *nothing*. Even casuals can't deny their trait is bad; it's literally the only army trait in the game that harms you.
All it would take to make the CSM Legions better would be to convert the Horus Heresy Legion rules; it can't be that hard. Then for the Renegade Chapters, just build some sort of customisation option. It wouldn't take long; I would be fine if it was just copy and paste stuff at this point.
Yeah I would love to get "a talent for murder " for night lords. I would even be cool if we got the nostroman blood rule to even it out.
A pretty resounding meh so far for BT rules. I was really hoping vows would replace the doctrine options for BT to really get the CC theme going, but unfortunately I guess we have to settle for the assault doctrine bonus they get. I feel like White Scars hit harder in comparison. Hoping the other Litanies they get are worth it, and there's some stratagems regarding crusader squads.
The BT strat is not entirely useless as you don't need to spend when you move the LR forward. They can reroll charge rolls (maybe there is also an Advance and charge strat or WT?). In the odd event that you do get into a position to charge something from the raider, spend the CP. Trouble is, who's generally taking Raiders anyway?
So BT get updated character sheets but no new models?
Not cool GW... Not cool... I have been eyeing up the emperors champion for a painting project and maybe eventual BT force for a while.. However as its failcast.. I was expecting/hoping for a plastic priamaris update(at this point does it even need to be fluff justified?)
I think people need to be honest with themselves. While GW has expanded the support that the sub-chapters get by way of supplements...it's damned lucky those sub-chapters even got a single Primaris character at the moment. I think anyone expecting new chapter-specific models for things like Black Templars are just setting themselves up for disappointment. An upgrade sprue and maybe one figure would have been all you could have expected and even that is pushing it.
I don't get the complaining. Stuff is super-powerful.
Why do Marines who already have T4 and power armour, as well as a fight twice strat to wrap models get no-overwatch utility stuffed down their throat while Ynnari as the supposed cc-Eldar variant with T3, 5+ models get's none of that? Not to mention doctrines, etc.. on Marine armies that already throw vastly more dice around.
If all Ynnari got in PA1 were just one of the things from just the BT preview, I'd be ecstatic.
Why do Marines who already have T4 and power armour, as well as a fight twice strat to wrap models get no-overwatch utility stuffed down their throat while Ynnari as the supposed cc-Eldar variant with T3, 5+ models get's none of that? Not to mention doctrines, etc.. on Marine armies that already throw vastly more dice around.
If all Ynnari got in PA1 were just one of the things from just the BT preview, I'd be ecstatic.
You'd be extatic for a Stratagem that only works when charging out of a (hilariously overcosted) vehicle? You do you I guess, but it really isn't a good Stratagem at all.
Why do Marines who already have T4 and power armour, as well as a fight twice strat to wrap models get no-overwatch utility stuffed down their throat while Ynnari as the supposed cc-Eldar variant with T3, 5+ models get's none of that? Not to mention doctrines, etc.. on Marine armies that already throw vastly more dice around.
If all Ynnari got in PA1 were just one of the things from just the BT preview, I'd be ecstatic.
You'd be extatic for a Stratagem that only works when charging out of a (hilariously overcosted) vehicle? You do you I guess, but it really isn't a good Stratagem at all.
I think the reason he'd be happy to get the stratagem previewed is because it would at least be something. Ynnari players got only a reprint of their WD rules in PA1. Imagine that. Imagine if BT got nothing new in this PA volume, only a reprint of previously released rules. I doubt you'd be happy.
You can almost guarantee that if there's a stratagem so specific it buffs a unit disembarking from a LRC, there will a)be a way to disembark after moving in the LRC and/or b)the LRC will be buffed/get a points drop to make it much more appealing.
This just proves how little GW understands close combat
The doctrine does look nice for large crusader squads, auto-wounding vehicles with a ton of chainsword attacks isn't that bad. I learned to hate the primaris bolters which do the same.
Jidmah wrote: This just proves how little GW understands close combat
The doctrine does look nice for large crusader squads, auto-wounding vehicles with a ton of chainsword attacks isn't that bad. I learned to hate the primaris bolters which do the same.
Knights of Sigismund explicitly doesn't work against Vehicles, though.
Jidmah wrote: This just proves how little GW understands close combat
The doctrine does look nice for large crusader squads, auto-wounding vehicles with a ton of chainsword attacks isn't that bad. I learned to hate the primaris bolters which do the same.
Knights of Sigismund explicitly doesn't work against Vehicles, though.
Why do Marines who already have T4 and power armour, as well as a fight twice strat to wrap models get no-overwatch utility stuffed down their throat while Ynnari as the supposed cc-Eldar variant with T3, 5+ models get's none of that? Not to mention doctrines, etc.. on Marine armies that already throw vastly more dice around.
If all Ynnari got in PA1 were just one of the things from just the BT preview, I'd be ecstatic.
You'd be extatic for a Stratagem that only works when charging out of a (hilariously overcosted) vehicle? You do you I guess, but it really isn't a good Stratagem at all.
I think the reason he'd be happy to get the stratagem previewed is because it would at least be something. Ynnari players got only a reprint of their WD rules in PA1. Imagine that. Imagine if BT got nothing new in this PA volume, only a reprint of previously released rules. I doubt you'd be happy.
You can almost guarantee that if there's a stratagem so specific it buffs a unit disembarking from a LRC, there will a)be a way to disembark after moving in the LRC and/or b)the LRC will be buffed/get a points drop to make it much more appealing.
Or c) Games Workshop doesn't understand how melee works in 8th edition and there will be no changes because the Stratagem works, it's just weak.
I'd happily trade the constant stream of releases that don't do a whole lot for my Templars (jury still out for the PA book) for rules that lets me play my army as something that isn't just "why am I not playing Ultramarines?". Rules for the sake of rules is meaningless, they're a means to an end, not an end in themselves.
The strat left me feeling a bit underwhelmed, but I will reserve judgement until we see the full release.
If people could stop complaining about PA, and using that to shame BT players from having early opinions on what has been revealed so far that would be nice. There are other threads available to complain about PA. Take it there.
Marshal Loss wrote: At least the new Sisters models are great...but yeah a bit miffed. Hopefully we get our preview tomorrow, and it's more than just one item per Legion.
My inner cynic tells me they're dangling new shines to distract because the chaos content will be underwhelming, although I'd love to be wrong!
Why do Marines who already have T4 and power armour, as well as a fight twice strat to wrap models get no-overwatch utility stuffed down their throat while Ynnari as the supposed cc-Eldar variant with T3, 5+ models get's none of that? Not to mention doctrines, etc.. on Marine armies that already throw vastly more dice around.
If all Ynnari got in PA1 were just one of the things from just the BT preview, I'd be ecstatic.
You'd be extatic for a Stratagem that only works when charging out of a (hilariously overcosted) vehicle? You do you I guess, but it really isn't a good Stratagem at all.
I think the reason he'd be happy to get the stratagem previewed is because it would at least be something. Ynnari players got only a reprint of their WD rules in PA1. Imagine that. Imagine if BT got nothing new in this PA volume, only a reprint of previously released rules. I doubt you'd be happy.
You can almost guarantee that if there's a stratagem so specific it buffs a unit disembarking from a LRC, there will a)be a way to disembark after moving in the LRC and/or b)the LRC will be buffed/get a points drop to make it much more appealing.
I'd happily trade the constant stream of releases that don't do a whole lot for my Templars (jury still out for the PA book) for rules that lets me play my army as something that isn't just "why am I not playing Ultramarines?". Rules for the sake of rules is meaningless, they're a means to an end, not an end in themselves.
Fair, perhaps waiting for the rest of the rules would be apt, before complaining about them though?
Jidmah wrote: This just proves how little GW understands close combat
The doctrine does look nice for large crusader squads, auto-wounding vehicles with a ton of chainsword attacks isn't that bad. I learned to hate the primaris bolters which do the same.
Knights of Sigismund explicitly doesn't work against Vehicles, though.
Works on battlesuits though. No clue if SP can be used against the auto-wound attacks since the FAQ is specific to mortal wounds, but probably not.
Why do Marines who already have T4 and power armour, as well as a fight twice strat to wrap models get no-overwatch utility stuffed down their throat while Ynnari as the supposed cc-Eldar variant with T3, 5+ models get's none of that? Not to mention doctrines, etc.. on Marine armies that already throw vastly more dice around.
If all Ynnari got in PA1 were just one of the things from just the BT preview, I'd be ecstatic.
You'd be extatic for a Stratagem that only works when charging out of a (hilariously overcosted) vehicle? You do you I guess, but it really isn't a good Stratagem at all.
I think the reason he'd be happy to get the stratagem previewed is because it would at least be something. Ynnari players got only a reprint of their WD rules in PA1. Imagine that. Imagine if BT got nothing new in this PA volume, only a reprint of previously released rules. I doubt you'd be happy.
You can almost guarantee that if there's a stratagem so specific it buffs a unit disembarking from a LRC, there will a)be a way to disembark after moving in the LRC and/or b)the LRC will be buffed/get a points drop to make it much more appealing.
I'd happily trade the constant stream of releases that don't do a whole lot for my Templars (jury still out for the PA book) for rules that lets me play my army as something that isn't just "why am I not playing Ultramarines?". Rules for the sake of rules is meaningless, they're a means to an end, not an end in themselves.
Fair, perhaps waiting for the rest of the rules would be apt, before complaining about them though?
eh I don't see a whole lot of super hard core complaining. they've noted the strat previewed is pretty terriable, people have noted it indicates GW's continued failure to understand melee, which is proably true. but compared to some of the complaining on the fourms it's not that bad. I mean, compared to some of the complaining lately this is pretty accepting.
I actually started building my LR last night to get it ready so I can use it - don't have any actually ready to put on the table right now - so I'll at least try it once or twice. Might need more than one LR to really be effective I would guess.
Jidmah wrote: This just proves how little GW understands close combat
The doctrine does look nice for large crusader squads, auto-wounding vehicles with a ton of chainsword attacks isn't that bad. I learned to hate the primaris bolters which do the same.
Knights of Sigismund explicitly doesn't work against Vehicles, though.
Works on battlesuits though. No clue if SP can be used against the auto-wound attacks since the FAQ is specific to mortal wounds, but probably not.
Saviour Protocols can't be used against those auto wounds since there's no wound roll.
Ap-1 cultists.
Why?
First you nerf them into the ground, now you allow AP-1 cultists with cacophony and Votwl?
Like, WHY?
Also detonating an enemy vehicle.....
Marshal Loss wrote: Absolutely love the Dark Apostle stratagem for the Word Bearers. Looks really cool so far!
It's great. Just too bad that SMs get this strat for literally every chapter and CSM only gets it for Word Bearers *facepalm*
Yeah that was my reaction.
At least I can stop units from running away from my night lords.
Does this happen a ton? My circle's pretty limited, so I don't see it very often (most of our combats are resolved first turn). Not really able to judge how helpful it is.
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Not Online!!! wrote: Ap-1 cultists.
Why?
First you nerf them into the ground, now you allow AP-1 cultists with cacophony and Votwl?
Like, WHY?
Also detonating an enemy vehicle.....
I like it, 1 CP for 50% improved odds of their land raider or knight exploding seems like a fair trade, especially in a clutch situation.
Marshal Loss wrote: Absolutely love the Dark Apostle stratagem for the Word Bearers. Looks really cool so far!
It's great. Just too bad that SMs get this strat for literally every chapter and CSM only gets it for Word Bearers *facepalm*
Yeah that was my reaction.
At least I can stop units from running away from my night lords.
Does this happen a ton? My circle's pretty limited, so I don't see it very often (most of our combats are resolved first turn). Not really able to judge how helpful it is.
it helps out raptors a bunch because they are unlikely to wipe something and want to remain in melee to not get fallbacked and then shot to smitherins.
Not Online!!! wrote: Ap-1 cultists.
Why?
First you nerf them into the ground, now you allow AP-1 cultists with cacophony and Votwl?
Like, WHY?
Also detonating an enemy vehicle.....
I like it, 1 CP for 50% improved odds of their land raider or knight exploding seems like a fair trade, especially in a clutch situation.
Yes i know that, it's great and all, but now we get Cultists bombs back, FOR 1 subfaction that is arguably allready head and shoulder above most.
Further i want to understand the design philosophy, SHOULD i now Pick Cultists or NOT? GW.
Make up your damn mind.
Further, i hate the fact that the best AT chaos has is supposedly more or less a bunch of Autogun totting cannonfodder units.
Also, IF gw wants to incentivice people picking actually CSM, then why implement this?
Woo chaos things!! What did world eaters get??? Oh. A mediocre warlord trait and a relic that prevents any exploding attacks/ wounds from happening whatsoever. Par for the course I guess. At least he doesn't hit himself, and Khorne daemon weapon from the other day looks neat.
StarHunter25 wrote: Woo chaos things!! What did world eaters get??? Oh. A mediocre warlord trait and a relic that prevents any exploding attacks/ wounds from happening whatsoever. Par for the course I guess. At least he doesn't hit himself, and Khorne daemon weapon from the other day looks neat.
well it does in itself exploding wounds. on average 3 mortals per round. Probably more when you use it on an exalted champion.
Some nice stuff here. It'll be great if CSM get a proper update.
That Iron Warriors warlord trait is a first for Chaos. No other source of re-roll 1's to wound against everything for them, which is annoying as it ruins their shooting potential.
It's a shame that Apostle of the Dark Council and Combat Elixirs are once per battle. They could have been multiple uses just fine. Combat Elixirs should have only been 1CP as well. I suppose its best used on 20 possessed or something. But its still an expensive melee buff, and melee units aren't exactly great.
That Iron Warriors warlord trait is a first for Chaos. No other source of re-roll 1's to wound against everything for them, which is annoying as it ruins their shooting potential.
It's a shame that Apostle of the Dark Council and Combat Elixirs are once per battle. They could have been multiple uses just fine. Combat Elixirs should have only been 1CP as well. I suppose its best used on 20 possessed or something. But its still an expensive melee buff, and melee units aren't exactly great.
I find it funny gw didn't have the guts to call it "combat drugs ". Chainsaw swords and bullets that explode inside people are ok but drugs are bad.
the CSM preview does seem pretty nice. That Alpha Legion strat could really bite some players in the backside! Looks like Night Lords got a nice CC locking strat.
I wonder how the Powerfist relic would work against relics that limit wound rolls to 4+. Might be an FAQ worthy item in the future.
That Iron Warriors warlord trait is a first for Chaos. No other source of re-roll 1's to wound against everything for them, which is annoying as it ruins their shooting potential.
It's a shame that Apostle of the Dark Council and Combat Elixirs are once per battle. They could have been multiple uses just fine. Combat Elixirs should have only been 1CP as well. I suppose its best used on 20 possessed or something. But its still an expensive melee buff, and melee units aren't exactly great.
The IW is not too different from the Armour bane trait in Vigilus, but has more utility. Not bad actually since my IW typically run fluffy units of havocs and Vindicators.
Their stratagem is okay. The real problem is the first three benefits aren't worth 2CP and will never get used. However, gaining +1 toughness could be useful on a Daemon Prince, Terminators or Possessed since Daemons Engines including the Lord Discordant can't take it.
The Raiment of Revulsion is excellent: re-rolling to hit, wound and charge! Taken it on a Daemon Prince or Smash Lord.
That Iron Warriors warlord trait is a first for Chaos. No other source of re-roll 1's to wound against everything for them, which is annoying as it ruins their shooting potential.
It's a shame that Apostle of the Dark Council and Combat Elixirs are once per battle. They could have been multiple uses just fine. Combat Elixirs should have only been 1CP as well. I suppose its best used on 20 possessed or something. But its still an expensive melee buff, and melee units aren't exactly great.
I find it funny gw didn't have the guts to call it "combat drugs ". Chainsaw swords and bullets that explode inside people are ok but drugs are bad.
Or maybe they don't want it confused with the Dark Eldar who already have a mechanic that revolves around 'Combat Drugs'.
Please engage brain.
That Iron Warriors warlord trait is a first for Chaos. No other source of re-roll 1's to wound against everything for them, which is annoying as it ruins their shooting potential.
It's a shame that Apostle of the Dark Council and Combat Elixirs are once per battle. They could have been multiple uses just fine. Combat Elixirs should have only been 1CP as well. I suppose its best used on 20 possessed or something. But its still an expensive melee buff, and melee units aren't exactly great.
I find it funny gw didn't have the guts to call it "combat drugs ". Chainsaw swords and bullets that explode inside people are ok but drugs are bad.
Or maybe they don't want it confused with the Dark Eldar who already have a mechanic that revolves around 'Combat Drugs'.
Please engage brain.
Probably, but for the really good "stuff" Fabulous Bill copied some Dark Eldar recipes anyway. So....
That Iron Warriors warlord trait is a first for Chaos. No other source of re-roll 1's to wound against everything for them, which is annoying as it ruins their shooting potential.
It's a shame that Apostle of the Dark Council and Combat Elixirs are once per battle. They could have been multiple uses just fine. Combat Elixirs should have only been 1CP as well. I suppose its best used on 20 possessed or something. But its still an expensive melee buff, and melee units aren't exactly great.
I find it funny gw didn't have the guts to call it "combat drugs ". Chainsaw swords and bullets that explode inside people are ok but drugs are bad.
Or maybe they don't want it confused with the Dark Eldar who already have a mechanic that revolves around 'Combat Drugs'.
Please engage brain.
Probably, but for the really good "stuff" Fabulous Bill copied some Dark Eldar recipes anyway. So....
Fabulous Bill wouldn't share his best stuff with the Emperors Children.
Or any stuff probably. I don't think they see eye to eye.
Personally, I'm interested in finding out about the Unaligned Daemon weapon. Maybe I can take it on my Fallen Sorcerer, assuming that it replaces a power sword.
Worst comes to worst I just keep using the Caliban Steel Blade as the relic.
That Iron Warriors warlord trait is a first for Chaos. No other source of re-roll 1's to wound against everything for them, which is annoying as it ruins their shooting potential.
It's a shame that Apostle of the Dark Council and Combat Elixirs are once per battle. They could have been multiple uses just fine. Combat Elixirs should have only been 1CP as well. I suppose its best used on 20 possessed or something. But its still an expensive melee buff, and melee units aren't exactly great.
I find it funny gw didn't have the guts to call it "combat drugs ". Chainsaw swords and bullets that explode inside people are ok but drugs are bad.
Or maybe they don't want it confused with the Dark Eldar who already have a mechanic that revolves around 'Combat Drugs'.
Please engage brain.
Probably, but for the really good "stuff" Fabulous Bill copied some Dark Eldar recipes anyway. So....
Fabulous Bill wouldn't share his best stuff with the Emperors Children.
Or any stuff probably. I don't think they see eye to eye.
They had combat drugs in older editions. Please disengage brain. All the transmission gears are stripped.
At first I was like “How is it possible that the EC Raiment is SO MUCH better and more powerful than the WE Disciple of Khorne?” And then I realized one is a warlord trait and the other is a relic, which is likely the explanation ^^.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The best ability previewed by far in my opinion is the Night Lord stratagem. Automatic ability to stop enemy unit escaping combat? Game changer.
Well I don't play CSM (Filthy traitors. Praise Dorn!), but I do hope Chaos get a bit more. Stratagems look cool. I really like the Alpha legion sabotage one and the night lord one could be game winning or at the very least very solid. For the love of all this unholy give the friggin traitor legions their tactics on all the units just like marines (aside from cultists), buff normal marines by reducing points and give the Word Bearers an actual legion tactic.
the poreview looks good, word bearers still need a new trait, but that warlord trait has some potential, especially if CSMs are given a strat that let's them double up on WL traits ala Marines
That Iron Warriors warlord trait is a first for Chaos. No other source of re-roll 1's to wound against everything for them, which is annoying as it ruins their shooting potential.
It's a shame that Apostle of the Dark Council and Combat Elixirs are once per battle. They could have been multiple uses just fine. Combat Elixirs should have only been 1CP as well. I suppose its best used on 20 possessed or something. But its still an expensive melee buff, and melee units aren't exactly great.
I find it funny gw didn't have the guts to call it "combat drugs ". Chainsaw swords and bullets that explode inside people are ok but drugs are bad.
Or maybe they don't want it confused with the Dark Eldar who already have a mechanic that revolves around 'Combat Drugs'.
Please engage brain.
Probably, but for the really good "stuff" Fabulous Bill copied some Dark Eldar recipes anyway. So....
Fabulous Bill wouldn't share his best stuff with the Emperors Children.
Or any stuff probably. I don't think they see eye to eye.
Except that he did. The Clone Lord himself gave Lucius is "experimental" Combat drug rack. The Legion Apothecary's that brew up the combat drugs were also trained by him.
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: At first I was like “How is it possible that the EC Raiment is SO MUCH better and more powerful than the WE Disciple of Khorne?” And then I realized one is a warlord trait and the other is a relic, which is likely the explanation ^^.
Works out for EC though since our current EC relic Blissgiver is it trash. So take this on one Daemon Prince and Intoxicating Elixir on another.
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Rydria wrote: I really want to try that new emperor's children strat on something not sure what though, probably some terminators or maybe even Possessed.
I think either terminators or chaos bikers are the best targets. But only the +1T bonus is worth 2CP.
Rydria wrote: I really want to try that new emperor's children strat on something not sure what though, probably some terminators or maybe even Possessed.
I think either terminators or chaos bikers are the best targets. But only the +1T bonus is worth 2CP.
The toughness is definitely the best thing it offers, if the cult troop +1 wound rumours are true it could also be worthwhile on a large unit of noise marines.
Personally I think anything with at least 2 wounds makes it generally worthwhile, going from toughness 4-5 on a multi wound unit is a huge buff vs small arms fire.
Rydria wrote: I really want to try that new emperor's children strat on something not sure what though, probably some terminators or maybe even Possessed.
I think either terminators or chaos bikers are the best targets. But only the +1T bonus is worth 2CP.
The toughness is definitely the best thing it offers, if the cult troop +1 wound rumours are true it could also be worthwhile on a large unit of noise marines.
Personally I think anything with at least 2 wounds makes it generally worthwhile, going from toughness 4-5 on a multi wound unit is a huge buff vs small arms fire.
True, any model with two wounds has a lot going for it. I still would rather it on a Terminator or Bike unit, though to maximize it value. but I also don't believe for one second that we'll be getting updated datasheets for Berserkers and Noise Marines in CA. The only way that would happen would be if kits were coming out as well. But we both know that's not happening anytime soon, 2021 maybe.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Wait, you can just straight up take Gorefather??? WTF?
It was a relic in 7th edition too
It didn't make sense then either. But hey there are scrub Chaos Lords running around with fragments of the blade that fell Horace, so...
Horace, Horus' lesser known diminutive brother with an upper class English accent
"Oh no Horus, I simply couldn't, i've been boating on the Thames all day and im meeting with Reginald the Blood later for croquet and scones..."
Personally I think anything with at least 2 wounds makes it generally worthwhile, going from toughness 4-5 on a multi wound unit is a huge buff vs small arms fire.
Personally I think anything with at least 2 wounds makes it generally worthwhile, going from toughness 4-5 on a multi wound unit is a huge buff vs small arms fire.
Pete, is that you?
I'm sorry I think you may have me confused with someone else.
BrianDavion wrote: rtememebr angron broke the weapons, and then was all like "meh whatever don't care" then Kharn took em and repaired em. making use of one
Oh I know, but it just seems so random that Joe Blow Chaos Dude can end up walking around with frickin' Gorefather of all things.
Personally I think anything with at least 2 wounds makes it generally worthwhile, going from toughness 4-5 on a multi wound unit is a huge buff vs small arms fire.
Pete, is that you?
I'm sorry I think you may have me confused with someone else.
You'll have to forgive Alpha. He's making a wonderful reference to the old days of the Chaos 3.5 Codex, where 1KSons guys got W2 but were still the worst sub-army in the entire 'Dex. Pete Haines, the writer of the Codex and a man who totally didn't make his own Iron Warriors the most powerful sub-army in the book, is quoted as saying "Ultimately and army with 2 wounds each has a lot going for it". It's something of an infamous saying for those of us who were around at the time.
those CSM players proably set their expectations too high then. what's been previewed pretty much exactly what I expected.
I think it's more the case that csm players has been holding out for a real rework for so long at this point to fix the underlying issues with the codex, through CA18, big FAQs, vigilus, csm 2.0 and now FnF. For me at least it's been smoldering for quite a long while now that they absolutely refuse to do something about it but instead put a new ribbon on our head trying to pretend there isn't any issues going into this new 2.0-codex world.
For instance I don't neccessarily think the legion traits are what's gonna make or break the army but rather interactions like endless cacaphony, votlw and how those two adjust the pricing on every option that can make use of them as an example.
I think that this has been a long time coming and people are now starting to show their disgruntlement on facebook. That being said, there's a lot of neat stuff that they previewed but I don't believe it's going to be anything that's going to make the faction incredibly more competitive in this particular meta. I'm curious to see the rest though, but I'm not going to buy the book unless it offers more than band-aids.
Edit: That being said, the real travesty is not giving Ghaz'kull a new model last Orktober nor throwing them a bone this one. I think we'd all be fine with them getting one model reworked every october even if there's not a new codex looming.
those CSM players proably set their expectations too high then. what's been previewed pretty much exactly what I expected.
I think it's more the case that csm players has been holding out for a real rework for so long at this point to fix the underlying issues with the codex, through CA18, big FAQs, vigilus, csm 2.0 and now FnF. For me at least it's been smoldering for quite a long while now that they absolutely refuse to do something about it but instead put a new ribbon on our head trying to pretend there isn't any issues going into this new 2.0-codex world.
For instance I don't neccessarily think the legion traits are what's gonna make or break the army but rather interactions like endless cacaphony, votlw and how those two adjust the pricing on every option that can make use of them as an example.
I think that this has been a long time coming and people are now starting to show their disgruntlement on facebook. That being said, there's a lot of neat stuff that they previewed but I don't believe it's going to be anything that's going to make the faction incredibly more competitive in this particular meta. I'm curious to see the rest though, but I'm not going to buy the book unless it offers more than band-aids.
Edit: That being said, the real travesty is not giving Ghaz'kull a new model last Orktober nor throwing them a bone this one. I think we'd all be fine with them getting one model reworked every october even if there's not a new codex looming.
Correct. We've been waiting ~11 years, since the 4th ed/5th ed codex came out and killed Legions. I'd still be happy if they just brought back the 3.5 dex with a few updates for 8th.
those CSM players proably set their expectations too high then. what's been previewed pretty much exactly what I expected.
I think it's more the case that csm players has been holding out for a real rework for so long at this point to fix the underlying issues with the codex, through CA18, big FAQs, vigilus, csm 2.0 and now FnF. For me at least it's been smoldering for quite a long while now that they absolutely refuse to do something about it but instead put a new ribbon on our head trying to pretend there isn't any issues going into this new 2.0-codex world.
For instance I don't neccessarily think the legion traits are what's gonna make or break the army but rather interactions like endless cacaphony, votlw and how those two adjust the pricing on every option that can make use of them as an example.
I think that this has been a long time coming and people are now starting to show their disgruntlement on facebook. That being said, there's a lot of neat stuff that they previewed but I don't believe it's going to be anything that's going to make the faction incredibly more competitive in this particular meta. I'm curious to see the rest though, but I'm not going to buy the book unless it offers more than band-aids.
Edit: That being said, the real travesty is not giving Ghaz'kull a new model last Orktober nor throwing them a bone this one. I think we'd all be fine with them getting one model reworked every october even if there's not a new codex looming.
I'm hoping for at some point later in PA that we get an Armageddon campaign book with Orks, IG, and Khorne getting a focus. Ghazkull and missing kits like kommandos, tankbustas, and wyrdboyz, Angron, and World Eaters, Steel Legion infantry and a redone basilisk/medusa kit.
BrianDavion wrote: rtememebr angron broke the weapons, and then was all like "meh whatever don't care" then Kharn took em and repaired em. making use of one
Oh I know, but it just seems so random that Joe Blow Chaos Dude can end up walking around with frickin' Gorefather of all things.
ahh but it';s NOT in the hands of Joe Blow chaos dude. it's in the hands of YOUR Chaos Dude. the greatest chaos dude to ever be a chaos dude in the history of dudes!
Wouldn't you be salty if there were a second ork faction that paid 6ppm per boy, and their boy also had a gun, a choppa and BS4+ instead of your 7pts one?
Wouldn't you get even more salty if the other dex doesn't even use these boyz because they got EVEN better boyz for whatever reason?
Well, viability aside, I think the new Traits and Strats capture the fluff perfectly! A Nightlord isolating the enemy commander, cutting of his vox leaving him helpless, Alpha Legion causing explosions in the ranks of the enemy.
Waaaghbert wrote: Well, viability aside, I think the new Traits and Strats capture the fluff perfectly! A Nightlord isolating the enemy commander, cutting of his vox leaving him helpless, Alpha Legion causing explosions in the ranks of the enemy.
Yeah, do you also repair a bridge by painting over rotten wooden plates on a bridge instead of replacing them and improving structural integrity?
Waaaghbert wrote: Well, viability aside, I think the new Traits and Strats capture the fluff perfectly! A Nightlord isolating the enemy commander, cutting of his vox leaving him helpless, Alpha Legion causing explosions in the ranks of the enemy.
Yeah, do you also repair a bridge by painting over rotten wooden plates on a bridge instead of replacing them and improving structural integrity?
That's why I said "viability aside". I'm not saying I'm happy with the stuff CSM, Eldar or Orks got (I'm not interessted in loyalist marines in any way, so I feel you), but I always like it when rules reflect the background. And these shown rules actually do. Word Bearers ARE lead by High ranking Dark Apostles, Night Lords DO mess with the enemy Vox. It's better done than "-1 to Hit" for Alpha Legion, which -at least for me- makes no sense backgroundwise.
Yes I agree, reworked traits would be way cooler, but that does not make my statement false.
GW could announce a free solid gold space marine for every player and someone would post on Facebook to complain they're not Orks
Reading is a useful skill to have on a forum. You'll note I was talking about CSM (Chaos Space Marine) players.
I think some/many of the complaints are justified. Their mirror faction gets a ton of buffs including the often requested 'traits on vehicles like every other faction please' and they get nothing? Balanced.
Waaaghbert wrote: Well, viability aside, I think the new Traits and Strats capture the fluff perfectly! A Nightlord isolating the enemy commander, cutting of his vox leaving him helpless, Alpha Legion causing explosions in the ranks of the enemy.
Yeah, do you also repair a bridge by painting over rotten wooden plates on a bridge instead of replacing them and improving structural integrity?
That's why I said "viability aside". I'm not saying I'm happy with the stuff CSM, Eldar or Orks got (I'm not interessted in loyalist marines in any way, so I feel you), but I always like it when rules reflect the background. And these shown rules actually do. Word Bearers ARE lead by High ranking Dark Apostles, Night Lords DO mess with the enemy Vox. It's better done than "-1 to Hit" for Alpha Legion, which -at least for me- makes no sense backgroundwise.
Yes I agree, reworked traits would be way cooler, but that does not make my statement false.
Yeah, i don't disagree with that, but considering what NEEDED to be redone (army traits) and what got done instead (Warlord traits and stratagems and relics) was missing the point imo.
Also the eldar portion of PA is somehow even more of a joke then the CSM side, (especially for DE) which makes this whole thing moronical from the get go....
Wouldn't you be salty if there were a second ork faction that paid 6ppm per boy, and their boy also had a gun, a choppa and BS4+ instead of your 7pts one?
Wouldn't you get even more salty if the other dex doesn't even use these boyz because they got EVEN better boyz for whatever reason?
Its not surprising and I would absolutely be salty if I were a CSM player and this was it in terms of an update. Then again I think any faction is justified for expressing salt if they don't get SM supplement style releases.
Wouldn't you be salty if there were a second ork faction that paid 6ppm per boy, and their boy also had a gun, a choppa and BS4+ instead of your 7pts one?
Wouldn't you get even more salty if the other dex doesn't even use these boyz because they got EVEN better boyz for whatever reason?
Its not surprising and I would absolutely be salty if I were a CSM player and this was it in terms of an update. Then again I think any faction is justified for expressing salt if they don't get SM supplement style releases.
honestly, no faction should'0ve gotten them until the factions were balanced torwards another propperly. (e.g. No GK left)
Well, at least we know they are keeping up with their ability to require FAQs on certain things from day 1!
For example, the AL strat means that when used on something like a Rhino, you need to roll a natural 3 in order for it to explode, due to explosions happening on natural 6's only for the vast majority of things. Obviously not RAI, but, it's clear from a RAW pov.
There are some interesting things in the preview, so i'll hold judgement until we see the full online reviews, but, as others have said, as with the Eldar book, it's a little bit on the tame side.
Agreed. I hear his next works centres around a character known as "Marius Suzerian", and he's apparently capable of easily curb-stomping every single one of Matt Ward's lesser creations simultaneously.
Personally I think anything with at least 2 wounds makes it generally worthwhile, going from toughness 4-5 on a multi wound unit is a huge buff vs small arms fire.
Pete, is that you?
I'm sorry I think you may have me confused with someone else.
You'll have to forgive Alpha. He's making a wonderful reference to the old days of the Chaos 3.5 Codex, where 1KSons guys got W2 but were still the worst sub-army in the entire 'Dex. Pete Haines, the writer of the Codex and a man who totally didn't make his own Iron Warriors the most powerful sub-army in the book, is quoted as saying "Ultimately and army with 2 wounds each has a lot going for it". It's something of an infamous saying for those of us who were around at the time.
I heard that behind the mini marine statue under the stairs at Warhammer World there's a hidden entrance to a secret chamber where, through the willing sacrifice of the blood of Andy Chambers, Gary Morely and Fat Bloke, you can summon Pete Haines from the Void to write you a new Chaos Codex where all the cult marines have 2 wounds each.
Personally I think anything with at least 2 wounds makes it generally worthwhile, going from toughness 4-5 on a multi wound unit is a huge buff vs small arms fire.
Pete, is that you?
I'm sorry I think you may have me confused with someone else.
You'll have to forgive Alpha. He's making a wonderful reference to the old days of the Chaos 3.5 Codex, where 1KSons guys got W2 but were still the worst sub-army in the entire 'Dex. Pete Haines, the writer of the Codex and a man who totally didn't make his own Iron Warriors the most powerful sub-army in the book, is quoted as saying "Ultimately and army with 2 wounds each has a lot going for it". It's something of an infamous saying for those of us who were around at the time.
I heard that behind the mini marine statue under the stairs at Warhammer World there's a hidden entrance to a secret chamber where, through the willing sacrifice of the blood of Andy Chambers, Gary Morely and Fat Bloke, you can summon Pete Haines from the Void to write you a new Chaos Codex where all the cult marines have 2 wounds each.
BrianDavion wrote: rtememebr angron broke the weapons, and then was all like "meh whatever don't care" then Kharn took em and repaired em. making use of one
Oh I know, but it just seems so random that Joe Blow Chaos Dude can end up walking around with frickin' Gorefather of all things.
ahh but it';s NOT in the hands of Joe Blow chaos dude. it's in the hands of YOUR Chaos Dude. the greatest chaos dude to ever be a chaos dude in the history of dudes!
To be fair, Gorefather was already in the Traitor Legions book, so it's nothing new. I wouldn't be surprised if name- and fluffwize all the relics in PA2 will be the ones' from Traitor Legions.
We could just all unanimously decide that the space marine codex doesn’t count and simply take our models off the table the moment rowboat girlymans pops out. If we all do it eventually no one outside the tournament scene will be buying space marine models. Sucks for space marine players but hopefully they’ll realize it’s for the good of the hobby. Or play index rules only against them... it’s your darned toy soldiers play with them how you want to and quit letting GW cruddy and biased rules ruin it for you. Heck write some rules for a cool character and put your own dude down. Make your own rules like the one page 40k did. Play that and stream it. Post the link in the appropriate forum and let’s make it a community wide that we can all have fun playing this game. Make it really take off and never touch a GW publication again; at least until they fix their rules. I’m too attached to the fluff to switch to a new game but talk to the other players. GW needs to learn that the space marines have literally nothing to contribute to the hobby right now; they need some cool villains to fight or else all you will ever see is goulliman and company fighting his clones and the tournament scene devolve to a coin flip.
macluvin wrote: We could just all unanimously decide that the space marine codex doesn’t count and simply take our models off the table the moment rowboat girlymans pops out. If we all do it eventually no one outside the tournament scene will be buying space marine models. Sucks for space marine players but hopefully they’ll realize it’s for the good of the hobby. Or play index rules only against them... it’s your darned toy soldiers play with them how you want to and quit letting GW cruddy and biased rules ruin it for you. Heck write some rules for a cool character and put your own dude down. Make your own rules like the one page 40k did. Play that and stream it. Post the link in the appropriate forum and let’s make it a community wide that we can all have fun playing this game. Make it really take off and never touch a GW publication again; at least until they fix their rules. I’m too attached to the fluff to switch to a new game but talk to the other players. GW needs to learn that the space marines have literally nothing to contribute to the hobby right now; they need some cool villains to fight or else all you will ever see is goulliman and company fighting his clones and the tournament scene devolve to a coin flip.
i mean, its pretty much already this at my store, people dont straight up pack up and leave, but theyre not ashamed to tell the opponent that their armies are stupid and surrender games early.
I would really like it if other factions were given the super nice treatment codex marines are getting right now. These changes are cool and fluffy (not always competitive), but overall very cool to have. This would be so great to spread the love to other factions and it wouldn't be that hard. I want super a warboss, super painboy, super chaos sorcs, super warpsmtihs and the like. Also inb4 imperial fist litany is counts as in cover.
Yoyoyo wrote: Well usually Marines get the goodies first and they roll out to the other factions later. So, maybe?
Yea, its a stupid, poor set up. They could release these sorts of rules for multiple factions at once so fewer players are left stranded rather than the mess we have now.
macluvin wrote: We could just all unanimously decide that the space marine codex doesn’t count and simply take our models off the table the moment rowboat girlymans pops out. If we all do it eventually no one outside the tournament scene will be buying space marine models. Sucks for space marine players but hopefully they’ll realize it’s for the good of the hobby. Or play index rules only against them... it’s your darned toy soldiers play with them how you want to and quit letting GW cruddy and biased rules ruin it for you. Heck write some rules for a cool character and put your own dude down. Make your own rules like the one page 40k did. Play that and stream it. Post the link in the appropriate forum and let’s make it a community wide that we can all have fun playing this game. Make it really take off and never touch a GW publication again; at least until they fix their rules. I’m too attached to the fluff to switch to a new game but talk to the other players. GW needs to learn that the space marines have literally nothing to contribute to the hobby right now; they need some cool villains to fight or else all you will ever see is goulliman and company fighting his clones and the tournament scene devolve to a coin flip.
i mean, its pretty much already this at my store, people dont straight up pack up and leave, but theyre not ashamed to tell the opponent that their armies are stupid and surrender games early.
I would have said the rules writers for their armies are stupid and have made games against their faction completely unfair and not fun; that I refuse to waste my hobby time playing against such an army. Hate the game not the player. Unless you are talking about primariues in particular. That’s an opinion. That I agree with. But still only an opinion.
Yoyoyo wrote: Well usually Marines get the goodies first and they roll out to the other factions later. So, maybe?
Yea, its a stupid, poor set up. They could release these sorts of rules for multiple factions at once so fewer players are left stranded rather than the mess we have now.
Especially considering this was written at the same time as csm rules and the rules for eldar in pa1.
Can't wait to see the difference between ba and tyranids and sw and orks in their respective books.
Not Online!!! wrote: Honestly, no issues with the main C:SM, all the issues with the supplements.
Then play like that. If they don’t want to then explain that the supplements have caused the marines to be completely overpowered and that it’s not a fun game for you, and move on to the next game.
Not Online!!! wrote: Honestly, no issues with the main C:SM, all the issues with the supplements.
Then play like that. If they don’t want to then explain that the supplements have caused the marines to be completely overpowered and that it’s not a fun game for you, and move on to the next game.
Allready do generally.
Mate of mine was diehard ih, we took one look at the supplement, he laughed, put it back and uses custom traits now.
Yoyoyo wrote: Well usually Marines get the goodies first and they roll out to the other factions later. So, maybe?
Necrons got Decurions first, Orks and Space Wolves were first of 7th, Sisters were the first of 6th (apparently)…
C:SM has been solidly middle of the pack for multiple editions, so people crying about Marines being #1 all the time are just being silly.
he's not wrong that marines often are the first with something though, granted a lot of the time what seems to happen is GW introduces a mechanic that is supposed to make marines stand out and be differant/unique from the other armies in the game and then everyone else wants it. the first 8th edition marine dex underperforming was no suprise
German FB group managed to get the lowdown on the Iron Warriors PA relic and known WL trait. We all know the warlord trait gives reroll wound rolls of 1 for Havoks and Vehicles within 6" of warlord, but the relic seems cool.
"Poisoned Metacanticle" Warpsmith model only, can at the end of combat do 4 extra attacks with this weapon. Any successful hits cause 1MW in addition to any other damage" (which isn't likely as its a S1 weapon with no AP!) but quite cool to strip off wounds.
Yoyoyo wrote: Well usually Marines get the goodies first and they roll out to the other factions later. So, maybe?
Necrons got Decurions first, Orks and Space Wolves were first of 7th, Sisters were the first of 6th (apparently)…
C:SM has been solidly middle of the pack for multiple editions, so people crying about Marines being #1 all the time are just being silly.
he's not wrong that marines often are the first with something though, granted a lot of the time what seems to happen is GW introduces a mechanic that is supposed to make marines stand out and be differant/unique from the other armies in the game and then everyone else wants it. the first 8th edition marine dex underperforming was no suprise
Can you give any examples, at all, of the bolded bit excluding the latest supplements? Any at all?
On topic, this PA campaign is a mess. GW's relentless focus on Marines has pissed the community off, big time. Like everyone, Chaos players, Xenos players, even SM players. Here's some quotations from facebook;
[spoiler]
I have a 4000pt fully painted marine army in custom raven guard sucessor style.
I AM EMBARRASSED TO USE THEM!!
They are too good now, i cant use them without literally apologising to the opponent for the sheer amount of gross power they have.
I spent 3 months lovingly painting then in anticipation of the supplement drop and now i just use my other less painted armies so i can actually get casual games.
And now.... more marine rules.
Well I've lost the faith but got a whole lot of fury, was that the intent for the book? If so, good job.
if the masters of the chapter had been in the codex i would have applauded, this just seems like filler to make the series run to more books. :(
Oh yay, because space marines haven't had any good rules updates in such a long time....
Let's give all the chapters that have just got their own supplements more stuff.
When will Blood Angels, Space wolves and Dark Angels get litanies and chapter tactics at the same standard as the resr?
This seems to be being about as well-received as when you put out that "new" core rulebook full of obsolete rules. Hope that, given the improvements GW seem to have made in the last couple of years in terms of responding to community feedback, somebody will have been paying attention to both these things.
I love my salamanders, was happy enough to get their own supplement, and now this....... Soon my regulars won't want to play my army if the buffs keep adding up.....
I'm wondering if Tyranids will ever get some new stuff, or just continue to languish as Marines get more and more...and more...and more....
Cool! Loyalists get all sorts of cool new toys (which they have been sorely lacking in for years), while Chaos gets name generation and tactical objectives! This is fair and balanced.
Space Marines really needed the help, they're only tier zero. Thank you
For those interested, I found more rumors (some are previews from the German GW page) and I post them in this post and in the comments to it. I'll keep updating the post on my page as I find new leaks or rumors:
Yoyoyo wrote: Well usually Marines get the goodies first and they roll out to the other factions later. So, maybe?
Necrons got Decurions first, Orks and Space Wolves were first of 7th, Sisters were the first of 6th (apparently)…
C:SM has been solidly middle of the pack for multiple editions, so people crying about Marines being #1 all the time are just being silly.
he's not wrong that marines often are the first with something though, granted a lot of the time what seems to happen is GW introduces a mechanic that is supposed to make marines stand out and be differant/unique from the other armies in the game and then everyone else wants it. the first 8th edition marine dex underperforming was no suprise
Can you give any examples, at all, of the bolded bit excluding the latest supplements? Any at all?
chapter tactics. Marines got that, it was pretty much their one big mechanic (back in 6th/7th every army had a mechanic that seperated them from just their stats, Guardf had orders, Eldar had their ability etc) marines had chapter tactics. Chaos was absolutely right to ask for theirs to, but by and large when GW gave EVERYONE chapter tactics for 8th it meant Marines lost something. by contrast, did anyone else get the guard orders?
Seriously wtf with these extra abilities for space marines. My two main armies are Iron Hands and DW and even I am baffled by these buffs so soon after the codexes. Especially when compared with Phoenix Rising. I mean, really, wtf, I don’t play or like Eldar but that’s just plain insulting!
Can you now imagine Imperial Fist centurions backed up by the new banner and apothecary? Their stratagems aren’t even great so grabbing these abilities for a couple CP is a no brainer.
Yoyoyo wrote: Well usually Marines get the goodies first and they roll out to the other factions later. So, maybe?
Necrons got Decurions first, Orks and Space Wolves were first of 7th, Sisters were the first of 6th (apparently)…
C:SM has been solidly middle of the pack for multiple editions, so people crying about Marines being #1 all the time are just being silly.
he's not wrong that marines often are the first with something though, granted a lot of the time what seems to happen is GW introduces a mechanic that is supposed to make marines stand out and be differant/unique from the other armies in the game and then everyone else wants it. the first 8th edition marine dex underperforming was no suprise
Can you give any examples, at all, of the bolded bit excluding the latest supplements? Any at all?
chapter tactics. Marines got that, it was pretty much their one big mechanic (back in 6th/7th every army had a mechanic that seperated them from just their stats, Guardf had orders, Eldar had their ability etc) marines had chapter tactics. Chaos was absolutely right to ask for theirs to, but by and large when GW gave EVERYONE chapter tactics for 8th it meant Marines lost something. by contrast, did anyone else get the guard orders?
And what was the Ork unique *thing* pray tell? What was that Eldar ability you mentioned? Every faction got Chapter Tactic equivalents because every faction deserves them. Not sure how other factions gaining something is a loss to Marines, that is probably one of the daftest things I've read here.
Expanded army rules for the Heretic Astartes, including Malicious Volleys, Daemon weapons, new Warlord Traits, Stratagems, relics, Tactical Objectives and name generators for each of the following Chaos Space Marine Legions: Word Bearers, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, and World Eaters.
Mr Morden wrote: I think its extremely poor that rules for the various high ranking offciers of a Chapter were not in the main Codex that they just released.
Also that the so called camapign book is just another Marines rulebook.
Once again showing even a clear Bias in marine cases.
The foodchain goes as follows :
Marines > csm (albeit the redheaded stepchild) > gsc then the rest.
Further no csm player really asked for more stratagems or Wl traits, what we asked for and many others would have been functioning legion traits and a reason for the obvious spiketax on units.
Instead, we still pay spiketax (13 pts for a worse then not played 12 pts Alternative that allready was better) have still not fixed traits and are now at publication 10 for Chaos Space Marines rule sources.
We have, imo atleast, officially entered 7.5 th edition and are in bs territory once again....
Expanded army rules for the Heretic Astartes, including Malicious Volleys, Daemon weapons, new Warlord Traits, Stratagems, relics, Tactical Objectives and name generators for each of the following Chaos Space Marine Legions: Word Bearers, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, and World Eaters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Seeing as Black Templars still pay 13 PPM for Crusader Squads, does that mean it's a Black Paint or a Chainsword tax rather than a Spike Tax?
Probably a "feth you, your horse, aswell as your dog you non codex anderent plebian tax."
Probably.
In the case of BA and DA, because they clearly are malfunctioning heretics.
Bolter Discipline is almost certainly going under the Champions of Ruin page. I really doubt they'd mention it without also mentioning Hateful Assault.
Mr Morden wrote: I think its extremely poor that rules for the various high ranking offciers of a Chapter were not in the main Codex that they just released.
And that special rites weren't in the relevant supplement. This book reads literally like leftover material from CSM2.0, SM2 and Marine Supplements I-VI
Yoyoyo wrote: Bolter Discipline is almost certainly going under the Champions of Ruin page. I really doubt they'd mention it without also mentioning Hateful Assault.
Maybee it's exploding 6"S but for boltguns against IoM units.
Mr Morden wrote: I think its extremely poor that rules for the various high ranking offciers of a Chapter were not in the main Codex that they just released.
And that special rites weren't in the relevant supplement. This book reads literally like leftover material from CSM2.0, SM2 and Marine Supplements I-VI
All of that content was obviously written at the same time so it's feasible and also adds to the perception that gw is intentionally giving superior rules to loyalist marines.
I wonder if gw have released any copies for review this weekend or if they'll hold off till next weekend since it's a 2 week preorder.
Yoyoyo wrote: Bolter Discipline is almost certainly going under the Champions of Ruin page. I really doubt they'd mention it without also mentioning Hateful Assault.
Maybee it's exploding 6"S but for boltguns against IoM units.
Doubt it as that would be to good against loyalists.
Red Corsair wrote: Great, I look forward to 2 centurions getting replaced in a unit a turn now.
Oh and now a Slaplain (?) can basically grab a storm shield, because marines didn't have enough 3++ saves floating around on jump pack characters.
At this point I hope they give marines a buff in every single PA book, it's already absurd, may as well go whole hog for laughs
Nah. Slaplains are gonna stick with the relic Crozius. Yeah a 3++ is a big upgrade to a 4++, but going to D3 (and consequently D4 with the chant) is where the money is at.
Woah, even on the generally super-positive GW facebook page, people are angry about the amount of extra rules for marines. Marine players are complaining about having to bring too many books. Everyone else is complaining about Marines getting all the good stuff.
Yoyoyo wrote: Well usually Marines get the goodies first and they roll out to the other factions later. So, maybe?
Necrons got Decurions first, Orks and Space Wolves were first of 7th, Sisters were the first of 6th (apparently)…
C:SM has been solidly middle of the pack for multiple editions, so people crying about Marines being #1 all the time are just being silly.
he's not wrong that marines often are the first with something though, granted a lot of the time what seems to happen is GW introduces a mechanic that is supposed to make marines stand out and be differant/unique from the other armies in the game and then everyone else wants it. the first 8th edition marine dex underperforming was no suprise
Can you give any examples, at all, of the bolded bit excluding the latest supplements? Any at all?
chapter tactics. Marines got that, it was pretty much their one big mechanic (back in 6th/7th every army had a mechanic that seperated them from just their stats, Guardf had orders, Eldar had their ability etc) marines had chapter tactics. Chaos was absolutely right to ask for theirs to, but by and large when GW gave EVERYONE chapter tactics for 8th it meant Marines lost something. by contrast, did anyone else get the guard orders?
And what was the Ork unique *thing* pray tell? What was that Eldar ability you mentioned? Every faction got Chapter Tactic equivalents because every faction deserves them. Not sure how other factions gaining something is a loss to Marines, that is probably one of the daftest things I've read here.
He's conveniently ignoring that Space Marines had Doctrines and And They Shall Know No Rules (well, Fear, but it conveniently ignored the downsides to ever taking a moral check and most factions with abilities to effect leadership found they didn't work against Marines for no apparent reason), the army wide special rules equivelant to Power From Pain, Rising Crescendo, Battle Focus and Instinctive Behaviour, and then gained indavidual Chapter Tactics, formations, relics, warlord traits, something like 6 psychic disciplines and only Chaos got anything like that, but 6 months before the end of the edition.
Besides, Eldar got in there first with the Codex Craftworlds supplement in 3rd ed that gave rules to the 5 main Craftworlds, so if Brian's going to complain that Space Marines had their one "unique" mechanic taken away from them and given to everybody, then he'll have to acknowledge that Marines only got it by having it taken away from Eldar.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The effect is presumably in the top left, but the other text would be nice.
The only German I know is from Rammstien songs but the night lords one is the rumored 8th edition rework of stormbolt plate: 2+ save always counts as cover and I'm pretty sure the we have come for you strategem.
The iron warrior one looks like the rumored mechandrite relic and the previewed warlord trait.
Alpha legion looks like the saboteur strategem and not sure about the other.
I'm always impressed at the restraint GW has shown when it comes to the Mortal Wound rules. They could be handing them out to just about everything, but instead they're exceptionally rare and on very niche units, making their inclusion all the more deadly. This applies doubly to AoS.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm always impressed at the restraint GW has shown when it comes to the Mortal Wound rules. They could be handing them out to just about everything, but instead they're exceptionally rare and on very niche units, making their inclusion all the more deadly. This applies doubly to AoS.
Yoyoyo wrote: Well usually Marines get the goodies first and they roll out to the other factions later. So, maybe?
Necrons got Decurions first, Orks and Space Wolves were first of 7th, Sisters were the first of 6th (apparently)…
C:SM has been solidly middle of the pack for multiple editions, so people crying about Marines being #1 all the time are just being silly.
he's not wrong that marines often are the first with something though, granted a lot of the time what seems to happen is GW introduces a mechanic that is supposed to make marines stand out and be differant/unique from the other armies in the game and then everyone else wants it. the first 8th edition marine dex underperforming was no suprise
Can you give any examples, at all, of the bolded bit excluding the latest supplements? Any at all?
chapter tactics. Marines got that, it was pretty much their one big mechanic (back in 6th/7th every army had a mechanic that seperated them from just their stats, Guardf had orders, Eldar had their ability etc) marines had chapter tactics. Chaos was absolutely right to ask for theirs to, but by and large when GW gave EVERYONE chapter tactics for 8th it meant Marines lost something. by contrast, did anyone else get the guard orders?
And what was the Ork unique *thing* pray tell? What was that Eldar ability you mentioned? Every faction got Chapter Tactic equivalents because every faction deserves them. Not sure how other factions gaining something is a loss to Marines, that is probably one of the daftest things I've read here.
He's conveniently ignoring that Space Marines had Doctrines and And They Shall Know No Rules (well, Fear, but it conveniently ignored the downsides to ever taking a moral check and most factions with abilities to effect leadership found they didn't work against Marines for no apparent reason), the army wide special rules equivelant to Power From Pain, Rising Crescendo, Battle Focus and Instinctive Behaviour, and then gained indavidual Chapter Tactics, formations, relics, warlord traits, something like 6 psychic disciplines and only Chaos got anything like that, but 6 months before the end of the edition.
Besides, Eldar got in there first with the Codex Craftworlds supplement in 3rd ed that gave rules to the 5 main Craftworlds, so if Brian's going to complain that Space Marines had their one "unique" mechanic taken away from them and given to everybody, then he'll have to acknowledge that Marines only got it by having it taken away from Eldar.
Umm no Marines didn't have doctrines.Doctrines where the Ultramarine chapter tactic, (that the gladius gave you more of because only being able to activate 1 doctrine per game and having one of each was a terriable chapter tactic)
Yoyoyo wrote: Well usually Marines get the goodies first and they roll out to the other factions later. So, maybe?
Necrons got Decurions first, Orks and Space Wolves were first of 7th, Sisters were the first of 6th (apparently)…
C:SM has been solidly middle of the pack for multiple editions, so people crying about Marines being #1 all the time are just being silly.
he's not wrong that marines often are the first with something though, granted a lot of the time what seems to happen is GW introduces a mechanic that is supposed to make marines stand out and be differant/unique from the other armies in the game and then everyone else wants it. the first 8th edition marine dex underperforming was no suprise
Can you give any examples, at all, of the bolded bit excluding the latest supplements? Any at all?
chapter tactics. Marines got that, it was pretty much their one big mechanic (back in 6th/7th every army had a mechanic that seperated them from just their stats, Guardf had orders, Eldar had their ability etc) marines had chapter tactics. Chaos was absolutely right to ask for theirs to, but by and large when GW gave EVERYONE chapter tactics for 8th it meant Marines lost something. by contrast, did anyone else get the guard orders?
And what was the Ork unique *thing* pray tell? What was that Eldar ability you mentioned? Every faction got Chapter Tactic equivalents because every faction deserves them. Not sure how other factions gaining something is a loss to Marines, that is probably one of the daftest things I've read here.
He's conveniently ignoring that Space Marines had Doctrines and And They Shall Know No Rules (well, Fear, but it conveniently ignored the downsides to ever taking a moral check and most factions with abilities to effect leadership found they didn't work against Marines for no apparent reason), the army wide special rules equivelant to Power From Pain, Rising Crescendo, Battle Focus and Instinctive Behaviour, and then gained indavidual Chapter Tactics, formations, relics, warlord traits, something like 6 psychic disciplines and only Chaos got anything like that, but 6 months before the end of the edition.
Besides, Eldar got in there first with the Codex Craftworlds supplement in 3rd ed that gave rules to the 5 main Craftworlds, so if Brian's going to complain that Space Marines had their one "unique" mechanic taken away from them and given to everybody, then he'll have to acknowledge that Marines only got it by having it taken away from Eldar.
Wasn't Codex: Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels a thing even in 1st edition?
Yoyoyo wrote: Well usually Marines get the goodies first and they roll out to the other factions later. So, maybe?
Necrons got Decurions first, Orks and Space Wolves were first of 7th, Sisters were the first of 6th (apparently)…
C:SM has been solidly middle of the pack for multiple editions, so people crying about Marines being #1 all the time are just being silly.
he's not wrong that marines often are the first with something though, granted a lot of the time what seems to happen is GW introduces a mechanic that is supposed to make marines stand out and be differant/unique from the other armies in the game and then everyone else wants it. the first 8th edition marine dex underperforming was no suprise
Can you give any examples, at all, of the bolded bit excluding the latest supplements? Any at all?
chapter tactics. Marines got that, it was pretty much their one big mechanic (back in 6th/7th every army had a mechanic that seperated them from just their stats, Guardf had orders, Eldar had their ability etc) marines had chapter tactics. Chaos was absolutely right to ask for theirs to, but by and large when GW gave EVERYONE chapter tactics for 8th it meant Marines lost something. by contrast, did anyone else get the guard orders?
And what was the Ork unique *thing* pray tell? What was that Eldar ability you mentioned? Every faction got Chapter Tactic equivalents because every faction deserves them. Not sure how other factions gaining something is a loss to Marines, that is probably one of the daftest things I've read here.
He's conveniently ignoring that Space Marines had Doctrines and And They Shall Know No Rules (well, Fear, but it conveniently ignored the downsides to ever taking a moral check and most factions with abilities to effect leadership found they didn't work against Marines for no apparent reason), the army wide special rules equivelant to Power From Pain, Rising Crescendo, Battle Focus and Instinctive Behaviour, and then gained indavidual Chapter Tactics, formations, relics, warlord traits, something like 6 psychic disciplines and only Chaos got anything like that, but 6 months before the end of the edition.
Besides, Eldar got in there first with the Codex Craftworlds supplement in 3rd ed that gave rules to the 5 main Craftworlds, so if Brian's going to complain that Space Marines had their one "unique" mechanic taken away from them and given to everybody, then he'll have to acknowledge that Marines only got it by having it taken away from Eldar.
Wasn't Codex: Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels a thing even in 1st edition?
Nope - The first Army lists were in Chapter Approved and none of those got army lists. Space Wolves and the others had different names but that was it. Later on the Spacec Wolves were portrayed as Vikings and the Angels had mainly cosmetic differences
Automatically Appended Next Post: The effect is presumably in the top left, but the other text would be nice.
Night Lords Relic: Nightblack/Black as Night Armor INFANTRY Model only. A model with this relic has a 2+ armor save and always counts as being in cover, even if it's not in or on terrain. Stratagem: We are your end (1 CP) Use at of your opponent's movement phase. Chose a unit of NIGHT LORDS from your army that is not a VEHICLE. Until your next turn, enemy unit within 1" of that unit cannot fall back, unless the have the VEHICLE or TITANIC keyword
Iron Warriors Warlord Trait: Master of (the?) Siege Attacks made with ranged weapons by friendly IRON WARRIOR HAVOC or IRON WARRIOR VEHICLE units within 6" of your warlord re-roll to wound rolls of 1. Relic: Technotoxic(?) Mechatendrils WARPSMITH modell only. This relic replaces the Mechatendrils. Range: Melee Type: Melee S: User AP: 0 D: 1 When the user fights, he can make 4 additional attacks with this weapon. Only 4 attacks can be made with this weapon. When you score a hit with this weapon, the target suffers 1 mortal wound and the attack sequence ends. (jidmah: Sounds like a over-complicated way to say it does up to 4 mortal wounds on a 3+?)
Alpha Legion Warlord Trait: Headhunter Your warlord can target CHARACTERS even if the are not the closest enemy units. When resolving a ranged attack with your warlord, each unmodified hit roll of 6 causes 1 mortal wound in addition to any other damage. Stratagem: Sabotaged Arsenal (1CP) Use in any phase before an enemy rolls to check whether a VEHICLE in his army explodes. If there is an ALPHA LEGION unit on the battlefield, add 3 to that roll. The roll can not be re-rolled.
I tried to get the translation to be as close to what the English rules would read like as possible. Names might or might not match, of course.
My reactions to PA2 reveal.
Not Fixing the Chainsword relic for Alpha Legion in CSM 2.0. It's the same as codex space marines however is still D3 not 3 additional attacks.
No new legion traits for ANYONE - has to be the worst implementation of "supplement content." This is drastically shameful for Word Bearers LT what is literally free for any Space Marine army. Word Bearers being cool in fluff but they might as well not have a legion trait. They don't even get the copy and paste Eldar got for master of artisans and stealthy.
Wondering if the Chief Librarian PA2 Rules now invalidate the Blood Angels Index.
Interesting that the BT "can't fall back" Stratagem is army-wide but not guaranteed (2+) and 2CP while the Night Lords one is guaranteed but only one unit for 1CP. I'm genuinely trying to figure out which one is the better stratagem, so that's good I guess.
BT is looking good, especially Grimaldus looks like a beast with his deny, two prayers and 4+ FNP bubble on his servitors. As your warlord he even gets two denies with +1 to his roll.
Between the Warlord Trait, the Litany, and the Phobos Warlord trait in C:SM there's three potential sources for increased charge distances. The Chaplain relic that lets you roll two dice and discard one for Litanies is great as well.
Some of the Stratagems are a bit meh (rerolling wounds for Scout units? I mean, I'll take it, but eh), overall this looks good but doesn't look like it'll risk breaking the game.
Warlord Traits: 1. Same at Codex
2. -1 to hit against warlord for enemy within 3"
3. when your Warlord Fights, you and your opponent secretly choose a number between one and three on a D6. Reveal at the same time, if the numbers differ, your warlord can make that many additional attacks. if they're the same nothing happens.
4. roll a D3 at the start of the fight phase, subtract that many attacks from enemy models within 1"
5. -1 damage against your warlord
6. re-roll charge rolls. if your warlord charges or heroic interventions, +1 S and A
Stratagems: 2CP: Combat Elixirs
- Profile on Community Website
1CP: Excess of Violence
- See Codex
1CP: Incessant Disdain
- Use at the end of your opponents charge phase. Select one EC character, that model can perform a 6" heroic intervention and can move 6" when doing so.
1CP: Honour the Prince
- Use in your Charge Phase. after making a charge roll for an EC Slaanesh unit, you can change the result of one of the D6 to a 6.
1CP: Excruciating Frequencies
- Use in your Shooting phase, when an EC Noise Marine unit from your army is chosen to Shoot. Until the end of the phase, add 1 to the strength and Damage of blast masters, sonic blasters and doom sirens.
1CP: Cruel Duelists
- Use in the Fight Phase, when an EC unit that's not a vehicle or cultist unit is chosen to fight. until the end of the phase, unmodified wound rolls of 6 have an AP characteristic of -3
1CP: Tactical Perfection
- use at start of first battle round, select one EC unit and re-deploy them in your deployment zone.
Relics: The Endless Grin: morale tests within 6" roll and additional dice and you choose which is discarded. in addition, subtract 1 from Ld for enemy units within 6"
Fatal Sonancy:
- R 12", Assault D6, S6, ap -2, D 1, abilities: auto hits, ignore cover
Armour of Abhorrence: Enemy units cannot fire overwatch against this unit, enemy units that fail morale within 6", one additional model flees.
Remnant of Marayiglia: Priest models only. when resolving a prayer: re-roll wound rolls for EC within 6" until the end of the battle round - one use
Distortion: Power sword or force sword only.
- S User, ap - 4, D d3, abilities: can chose to X2 strength but -1 to hit.
Raiment Revulsive: Re-roll hit and wound rolls for attacks. re-roll charge rolls.
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World Eaters Rules:
Spoiler:
Warlord Traits: 1. From Codex
2. Add D3 to attacks if there are more enemy units within 3" than friendly units. these extra attacks last until the end of the fight phase.
3. See Community Website
4. +1 charges for friendly WE within 6"
5. half damage suffered against melee weapons (rounding up)
6. 6" heroic intervention. and warlord always fights first
Stratagems: 1CP: Scorn of Sorcery
- See Codex
1CP: Apocalyptic Frenzy
- Use during deployment. when you set up a WE infantry unit. at the start of the first battle round, you can move then 9". can't be within 9" of enemy units etc.
1CP: Skulls for the Skull Throne
- Use in the Fight phase, when an enemy CHARACTER model is destroyed from a WE character you gain D3 CP
2CP: Red Butchers
- use before the battle, Select one WE Terminator unit. add 1 to Strength characteristic and they gain the Blood For the Blood God ability (same one from the Khorne Berzerkers)
1CP: Maim! Kill! Burn!
- Use in the Fight phase. before you consolidate with a WE unit. Until the end of that phase, that unit can consolidate 6"
1CP: Wild Fury
- Use in the Fight phase, when you select a WE unit to fight with. improve the AP of that units melee weapons by 1 until the end of that phase.
1CP: Stoke the Nails
- Use in the Fight phase, when a WE Infantry or Biker unit (excluding cultists) fights. until the end of the phase, that units Death to the False Emperor ability affects any enemy unit. but its a 5+ against Imperium.
2CP: Blood for the Blood God!
- use in fight fight phase, if a WE unit destroys a unit in the fight phase, do not roll morale for that unit, its automatically passed.
Relics: Crimson Killer: plasma Pistol only
- R12", S9, ap -3, d 3, abilities: unmodified wound rolls of 4+ inflict a mortal wound in addition to normal damage
Gorefather: See community website
Banner of Rage: Priest model only, once per battle at the start of the fight phase, add 1 to the attacks characteristics for friendly WE units within 6".
Berzerker Glaive: Power axe or axe of dismemberment.
- S +1, ap -2, D 2, abilites: 5+ feel no pain on the bearer.
Helm of Furore: Infantry model only. +2 Strength. Bearer must charge if there are any enemy units within 8"
Bloodhunger: When an enemy model is destroyed in the fight phase from this model, roll a D6, on a 4+ the bearer regains a lost wound.
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Iron Warriors Rules:
Spoiler:
Warlord Traits: 1. From Codex
2. unmodified hit rolls of 6 for friendly IW Daemon engine or Cult of Destruction models within 6" scores 1 additional hit
3. 5+ 'feel no pain'
4. When resolving an attack with AP1 made against friendly IW units within 6" and they're benefiting from cover, that attack becomes AP0
5. profile on Community Page
6. IW units within 6" do not suffer penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons
Stratagems: 1CP: Iron Within Iron Without
- Same at Codex
1CP: Methodical Annihilation
- Use in Shooting phase, select one IW unit to shoot then select one of the following effects to last to the end of the phase:
1. Re-roll damage
2. you can re-roll any or all of the dice to determine shots for weapons
1CP: Dour Duty
- use in opponents shooting phase or your charge phase. when resolving a shooting attack against an IW unit, worsen the AP by one.
1CP: Unholy Vigour
- use at start of movement phase, select one IW Vehicle, that model gains up to 3 lost wounds.
1CP: Tank Hunters
- use in shooting or Fight phase. when IW unit (not Cultists) shoots or fights, select one enemy Vehicle unit. re-roll wound rolls for that IW unit against the vehicle.
1CP: Rampant Techno-Virus
- use in shooting or Fight Phase. Select an IW Obliterator or Mutilator unit when they shoot or fight. you can re-roll any or all of the D3 rolls when using the fleshmetal guns or flesh metal weapons ability
2CP: Cannon Fodder
- Use this Stratagem at the start of your opponents shooting phase. select one IW infantry and one IW cultist unit wholly within 6" of that unit. until the end of the phase, enemy models cannot target that IW infantry unit if the selected IW cultists are visible.
1CP: Bitter Enmity
- use in the Fight phase. Select one IW unit to fight with. re-roll hit and wound rolls against Imperial Fists units.
Relics: Siegebreaker Mace: Power maul or accursed Crozius only (Has 2 profiles)
Swing - S +2, ap -2, D 2
Smash - S x2, ap -3, D d6, Ablities, when using smash, it makes 2 attacks, in addition roll 2D6 for damage, discard the lowest.
Cranium Malevolis: in your shooting phase, this model can use the relic instead of shooting. roll a D6 for each enemy vehicle unit within 9". on a 4+ they take D3 mortal wounds, on a 6 they take 3 mortal wounds.
Insidium: Model gains the Daemon Keyword, add 1 to Strength, Toughness and wounds characteristics.
Axe of the Forgemaster: Power axe or daemonic axe only
- S +3, ap -3, D2, abilities: against vehicles, unmodified hit rolls of 5+ inflict D3 mortal wounds in addition to normal damage.
Spitespitter: Combi-bolter only
- R24", RF2, S 5, ap -3, D d3
Techno-Venemous Mechatendrills: Warpsmith only
- S User, AP 0, D 1, Abilites: 4 additional attacks (this weapon can only make 4 attacks). every hit scored does a mortal wound.
Warlord Traits: 1. From Codex
2. -1 to hit rolls against this Warlord.
3. Warlord can target characters. Unmodified Hit rolls of 6 inflict 1 mortal wound in addition to normal damage
4. at the start of the first battle round, before the turn begins. select up to 3 other AL units on the battlefield. redeploy them in your deployment zone
5. Profile on Community Page
6. once per battle, at the end of your Movement phase, you can remove your warlord and redeploy him within 3" of an AL unit and 9" from enemy units.
Stratagems:
1CP: Forward Operatives
- From Codex
2CP: Conceal
- use at start of opponents shooting phase. Select one AL infantry unit. cannot be targeted unless it's the closest visible unit.
1CP: Sabotaged Armoury
- profile on Community website
1CP: Scrambled Coordinates
- use in enemy movement phase, enemy units deploying as reinforcements have to be more than 12" away instead of 9"
1CP: Renascent Infiltration
- Use at the end of the your Movement phase. Select one AL Infantry unit more than 3" from enemy models (cannot select units that arrived from reserve). remove that unit and set them up more than 9" from enemy models
edit: might be more like: "Renascent Infiltration" only happens in your own movement phase, and removes the unit until (the end of?) your next movement phase.
2CP: Ambush
- use in opponents Movement phase, after your opponent has set up reinforcements, select one AL unit from your army within 18". they can shoot that unit as if it where your shooting phase.
1CP: Feigned Retreat
- Use in movement phase, select one AL unit, they can shoot after they fell back.
1CP: We are Alpharius
- Use before the battle, after nominating your Warlord, select another AL Character and generate a trait for them. can only use once per battle.
Mindveil: start of movement phase, while on the battlefield, roll 3D6. until the end of the phase, that models move characteristic is that result. this model can move over other models as if they weren't there (in the movement and charge phase). this model can charge after it fell back.
Hydra's Wail: once per battle, at the start of the turn. for the remainder of the turn, when your opponent uses a stratagem roll a D6, on a 4+ your opponent must spend an additional CP to use that stratagem or it has no effect and the CP spent are lost.
Viper's Wail: Combi-bolter only
- R24", RF2, S5, ap -3, D 2
Hydra's Teeth: Bolt weapon only, Grants the following abilities:
auto hits, wounds on a 2+ unless its a vehicle or titanic in which case it wounds on a 6+, ignores cover.
Shadeblade: Power sword or Force Sword only
- S +1, ap -3, D d3, abilites: -1 to hit against the bearer
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Night Lords Rules:
Spoiler:
Warlord Traits: 1. from codex
2. can charge after falling back, -1 to hit rolls against melee weapons
3. unmodified hit rolls of 6 cause a mortal wound in addition to other damage
4. Add D3 attack when charging, being charged, heroic intervention. these attacks last until the end of the fight phase
5. when in terrain, +1 to saving throw (not Invulnerable saves). In addition, whilst this model is in terrain, +1 to invulnerable saves (max of 3+)
6. If there are more friendly models within 3" than enemy models, add 1 to wound rolls for melee weapons
Stratagems: 1CP: In Midnight Clad
- from codex
2CP: Vox Scream
- use at the end of the movement phase, select an enemy model within 18" of a NL unit. until the start of your next movement phase, enemy units cannot be affected by the affected units aura abilities
1CP: Prey on the Weak
- use in shooting or fight phase, select a NL unit. Until the end of the shooting or fight phase, when targeting a unit with a lower Ld characteristic than that unit, add 1 to the hit rolls.
1CP: Hit and Run
- use in charge phase, select a NL unit, they can charge even if they fell back
1CP: We have come for you
- Profile on the Community page
1CP: From the Night
- Use at start of Charge phase, select one NL infantry unit in terrain, until the end of the turn, add 2 to charge rolls, and +1 to hit in Combat.
1CP: Raptor Strike
- Use in charge phase, select one NL Jump pack unit that was set up as reinforcements, roll 3D6 for charge rolls.
1CP: Flay them alive
- Use in the Fight phase, when a unit is destroyed from a NL unit. Until the end of the turn, when a moral test is taken for enemy units within 12" of that NL unit, your opponent rolls and additional D6 and can choose which to discard.
Night Lords Relics:
Flayer: Power Sword model only
- S +1, ap -3, D 2, abilities: each model destroyed from this weapon counts as 2 for moral
Storm Bolt plate: 2+ armour save, always counts as being in cover
Vox Daemonicus: Profile on Community Website
Talons of the Night Terror: Model that can FLY
- S +1, ap -1, D 1, Abilites: D3 additional attacks or D6 if it charged or made a heroic intervention
Scourging chains: Improve the Ap of one melee weapon by 1, in addition, -1 attack for enemy units within 1" of this model
Misery of the Meek: Once per battle: at the start of the Movement phase, model regains D6 lost wounds. in addition gains D3 extra attacks until the start of your next turn.
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Word Bearers Rules:
Spoiler:
Warlord Traits: 1. Add 3" to Warlord Aura Abilities.
2. This Warlord Gains the POSSESSED and DAEMON Keywords. Add 1 to their Strength, Attacks and Movement Characteristics.
3. Profile on the Community Page
4. Add 1 to the Attacks characteristics of friendly WB Possessed Models within 6" of the Warlord
5. When with Warlord loses a wound, roll 1D6, adding 3 if that wound being lost is a mortal wound, on a 6+, that wound is not lost.
6. +1 wound, Start of every player turn, generate D3 lost wounds.
Stratagems: 1CP: Dark Pact
- From Codex
1CP: Malevolent Covenant
- use in Psychic phase, if WB Psyker fails test - test auto passes, and cannot be denied. Psyker takes mortal wound after.
1CP: Apostle of the Dark Council
- Use before battle, friendly WB priest model can knows and can use an additional prayer for the remainder of the battle.
2CP: Cursed Despoilers
- Use after deployment but before the first turn begins, if a WB unit is on the battlefield, select a piece of terrain (other than fortifications) - cannot be used for cover
1CP: Revered Hosts
- Use in Fight phase, select WB Possessed or WB G-Possessed before they are chosen to fight. they all gain +1 Damage to their melee weapons.
1CP: Hexagrammatic Ward
- Use in any phase, after making a saving throw for a WB character, that roll is treated as being a 6. Each WB character can only use this Stratagem once per battle.
1CP: Vengeance For Monarchia
- Use in fight phase, when a WB unit is chosen to fight with, Re-roll hits and wounds against Ultramarine units.
Relics:
Crown of the Blasphemer: +1 Invulnerable save (to a max of 3+). Subtract 1 from Ld characteristics for enemy models within 6".
Baleful Icon: Subtract 2" to charge rolls for enemy units charging friendly WB units within 6" of the relic bearer.
Book of the Reviler: model that is not a Daemon. Before the battle this model can generate 2 chaos boons, re-rolling Spawndom and daemon-hood and duplicate results (does not cost CP)
Malefic Tome: Knows additional power, Add 1 to Psychic tests.
Ashen Axe: Chainaxe only
- S +1, ap -2, D d3, abilities: units within 1" of this relic cannot fallback, unless they're a VEHICLE or TITANIC, or have a minimum move
Epistle of Lorgar: Priest model only, re-roll dice for prayer activation, +1 Ld for friendly WB units within 6"
So far I like what i see. And since legion traits are mostly gak, we can probably soup it up real easily. Auto Death Hex is amazing, but tied to a gak legion. Soup it up.
I love that there are now two different Blood for the Blood God rules that do completely different things.
Come on GW, you couldn't check and make sure the signature catch phrase wasn't already in use? Especially since the current use is also referenced in another stratagem?
Nightlord1987 wrote: Supreme command, 3 different Legion HQs. Take one undeniable WB sorcerer, one 3d6 overwatch cancelling Night Lord, one ALcp Bumping character. Profit?
would that work with them all being different legions, not sure strats etc are unlocked
Nightlord1987 wrote: Supreme command, 3 different Legion HQs. Take one undeniable WB sorcerer, one 3d6 overwatch cancelling Night Lord, one ALcp Bumping character. Profit?
would that work with them all being different legions, not sure strats etc are unlocked
Not sure, depends on wording in the book, but generally you unlock the stratagems by taking a detachment of the faction you're wanting to use; BUT, most of these stratagems are unlocked by taking any sub-faction of that faction. That's why Agents of Vect was causing problems for a while; you didn't need to have a Kabal of the Black Rose unit in your army to use Agents of Vect - you just needed a Drukhari detachment. Well, theoretically, to gain access to these stratagems you just need a Chaos Space Marine detachment, not specifically an Alpha Legion or Word Bearers or Night Lords detachment.
Youd only need a CSM detachment to unlock all the Strats, and then the appropriate keyword interactions. I think triple Sorcerers in a Supreme Command, each with their own unique strat and relic could be an amazing toolkit.
So according to B&C the chapter litanies are apparently
White Scars: Strike off the head
Chapter units within 6" can reroll wound rolls for melee weapons.
Iron Hands: Medusan Fervour
Chapter units within 6" get +1S
Imperial Fists: Fortress of Resolve
Chapter units within 6" overwatch on 5s and 6s
Ultramarines: March for Macragge
Chapter units within 6" can reroll any or all rolls of 1 for charges and advance moves
Salamanders: Selfless Saviours
Chapter units within 6" can performe heroic interventions as if they were characters
Raven Guard: Swift as the Raven
Select one chapter unit within 6". It can shoot after falling back. If it can FLY, it can charge
Can someone answer me a question... can I, as a Dark Angel player, use the Masters of the Chapter rules and Stratagems? I assume I can't because they are "Space Marine" and not "Adeptus Astartes" stratagems?
I hate this piecemeal book model so much- even not buying into it, it bothers me. $40 a pop, over and above the rulebook and codex, for maybe 1 page of rules for your particular subfaction, with no coherency or consistency. Plus yearly chapter approved for its page of adjustments...
Reminds me far too much of seventh (which I just skipped entirely), and in the worst ways.
I actually miss the days when they put out a codex and didn't bother with updates for 5-10 years. At least the game was stable, there was time to keep up and a reason to buy the books.
I ignored the Vigilus books and I didn't felt like I missed anything. This book as a couple of nice things for Chaos Players and obviously Black Templars but if you are a Codex Chapter I would not bother.
Galas wrote: I ignored the Vigilus books and I didn't felt like I missed anything. This book as a couple of nice things for Chaos Players and obviously Black Templars but if you are a Codex Chapter I would not bother.
I might get it just for the Master of Sanctity, Ancient, and eventually Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors rules. Those were the two Legions I'd run as anyway but the Marine bonuses as usual are where it is at. A Slaplain with the Warlord trait to reroll the activation + Relic Crozius + Mantra + whatever you feel like? That's kinda like Ghetto Slamguinus but at least a LOT cheaper in CP use.
But we already have the rules. Why buy the book? Why acquiesce to this harmful and outdated rules-publishing system? A living game needs to happen sooner rather than later in 40k...
grouchoben wrote: But we already have the rules. Why buy the book? Why acquiesce to this harmful and outdated rules-publishing system? A living game needs to happen sooner rather than later in 40k...
A tournament might require I have the books in hand. I might be able to get away with some printed copies of the pages I'm using though.
For those interested, I did a lengthy walk-through on my Chaos YouTube channel discussing what I think are the stand-out new abilities and combos in the book:
The Master of the Forge seems pretty good for such a cheap character - use a strategem to give him a WLT and give +1 to hit to vehicles around him is pretty gnarly.
I wonder if the UM Chapter Champion/Chapter Ancient can use the Relics/WLT, since I believe they have the keyword, or do they count as named characters?
Crazyterran wrote: The Master of the Forge seems pretty good for such a cheap character - use a strategem to give him a WLT and give +1 to hit to vehicles around him is pretty gnarly.
I wonder if the UM Chapter Champion/Chapter Ancient can use the Relics/WLT, since I believe they have the keyword, or do they count as named characters?
I'd say "no" myself. UMs being able to take a version of the chapter champion/ancient without spending a CP for it is an advantage if you're not looking for a relic.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Supreme command, 3 different Legion HQs. Take one undeniable WB sorcerer, one 3d6 overwatch cancelling Night Lord, one ALcp Bumping character. Profit?
Yup, all with jump packs. The WB sorceror can auto death hex, undeniably most of the time. The NL can shut off that chapter masters aura and charge in pinning a crucial unit. Could also take an EC jump lord for another ignores overwatch character that can also subtract d3 attacks from everything in range regardless of whether they attack him or not. It's pretty lame needing to run a skittles toolkit, but these are the desperate times for none marines lol.
You know, on a story-meta level it's kinda interesting that Chaos isn't a threat to anyone until they band together and combine forces. If it weren't for the fact that it leaves mono-Legion players utterly fethed it could be an interesting difference between Vanilla Marines and Chaos Marines. Bit late to mess up people's armies and expectations now though.
