SamusDrake wrote: OMG, a new Tyranid unit is almost at hand? Can it be?
Doubt it, even though we could use plastic kits for some of our resin units.
Sadly with current PA book BT hot nothing and Chaos Legions got the Sorceror, knowing Mephiston is coming hints only a new model per book and not for both armies.
SamusDrake wrote: OMG, a new Tyranid unit is almost at hand? Can it be?
Doubt it, even though we could use plastic kits for some of our resin units.
Sadly with current PA book BT hot nothing and Chaos Legions got the Sorceror, knowing Mephiston is coming hints only a new model per book and not for both armies.
...except the first book brought with it TWO characters and TWO plastic units. So far, a pattern does not exist.
SamusDrake wrote: OMG, a new Tyranid unit is almost at hand? Can it be?
Doubt it, even though we could use plastic kits for some of our resin units.
Sadly with current PA book BT hot nothing and Chaos Legions got the Sorceror, knowing Mephiston is coming hints only a new model per book and not for both armies.
...except the first book brought with it TWO characters and TWO plastic units. So far, a pattern does not exist.
We know the releases from the leaked schedule though. Mephiston is the only new model coming with PA3.
SamusDrake wrote: OMG, a new Tyranid unit is almost at hand? Can it be?
Doubt it, even though we could use plastic kits for some of our resin units.
Sadly with current PA book BT hot nothing and Chaos Legions got the Sorceror, knowing Mephiston is coming hints only a new model per book and not for both armies.
First book got 2 units, 2 HQs. Second book gets one HQ. Third book has one HQ known so far.
We can’t draw any patterns with just two data points. Was the first book a fluke, or the second? If all we get is Mephiston, we can assume that level for most books.
Ninja’d, and proven wrong with facts. Nevermind...
Marneus has had three iterations in the time that Tycho, Dante, Ragnar, Ezekiel, Azrael, Asmodai, Corbulo etc have had one. Do GW not write new characters anymore? It seemed like back in the day when I bought codices that there were occasional new characters sprinkled in between editions. They just don't bother anymore or what?
JWBS wrote: Marneus has had three iterations in the time that Tycho, Dante, Ragnar, Ezekiel, Azrael, Asmodai, Corbulo etc have had one. Do GW not write new characters anymore? It seemed like back in the day when I bought codices that there were occasional new characters sprinkled in between editions. They just don't bother anymore or what?
JWBS wrote: Marneus has had three iterations in the time that Tycho, Dante, Ragnar, Ezekiel, Azrael, Asmodai, Corbulo etc have had one. Do GW not write new characters anymore? It seemed like back in the day when I bought codices that there were occasional new characters sprinkled in between editions. They just don't bother anymore or what?
We still get new Characters:
Yvraine
Visarch
Avatar of Ynnead
Grandmaster Voldus
I suppose we can kind of count the 3rd company captains that got primarised, since some never had rules before.
Can we count the Rogue Traders? They get rules in 40k.
Inquisitor Greyfax.
St. Katherine
The SoB on the floating altar
Krom Dragongaze
Haarken Worldclaimer
Belisarius Cawl
The Daemon prince/slaanesh herald combo
A named GUO A named Keeper of Secrets
The book has to have a ton of rules for Blood Angels (unless they are planning on doing a relaunch of the codex) as they will have to catch up to the other standard marine codexes. This means Doctrines, a Super Doctrine, Litanies, new super characters (as marines just received). So before people start screaming "more marines, wut?!" just realize where BA are currently, what they will need to be on par with other marines, and maintain expectations accordingly.
What is interesting is this will lead off for other marine chapters. If it's a full update, then Wolves (next) DA, DW and GK can expect the same when their books drop.
I think next year we will see SW vs Orks (known), DA vs Fallen, DW vs Tau, GK vs Daemons (not sure on order of latter 3). Just my expectations. I also think DA vs Fallen will also bring in the Gravis armour wave for marines (tie in with Deathwing since it was revealed in WD that they are using Gravis in DW now)
bullyboy wrote: The book has to have a ton of rules for Blood Angels (unless they are planning on doing a relaunch of the codex) as they will have to catch up to the other standard marine codexes. This means Doctrines, a Super Doctrine, Litanies, new super characters (as marines just received). So before people start screaming "more marines, wut?!" just realize where BA are currently, what they will need to be on par with other marines, and maintain expectations accordingly.
What is interesting is this will lead off for other marine chapters. If it's a full update, then Wolves (next) DA, DW and GK can expect the same when their books drop.
I think next year we will see SW vs Orks (known), DA vs Fallen, DW vs Tau, GK vs Daemons (not sure on order of latter 3). Just my expectations. I also think DA vs Fallen will also bring in the Gravis armour wave for marines (tie in with Deathwing since it was revealed in WD that they are using Gravis in DW now)
Well of course lots of people are going to go FFS MORE Marines as the Core Marines are almost certain to get a lod more stuff = as they did in PA2.
And then apparently the same for PA4, 5, 6, 7..............
technically all BA need is the Docterine and Litanies as they already have far more characters than any supplement Chapter. They are getting a new Mephiston apparently - which should be cool.
bullyboy wrote: The book has to have a ton of rules for Blood Angels (unless they are planning on doing a relaunch of the codex) as they will have to catch up to the other standard marine codexes. This means Doctrines, a Super Doctrine, Litanies, new super characters (as marines just received). So before people start screaming "more marines, wut?!" just realize where BA are currently, what they will need to be on par with other marines, and maintain expectations accordingly.
What is interesting is this will lead off for other marine chapters. If it's a full update, then Wolves (next) DA, DW and GK can expect the same when their books drop.
I think next year we will see SW vs Orks (known), DA vs Fallen, DW vs Tau, GK vs Daemons (not sure on order of latter 3). Just my expectations. I also think DA vs Fallen will also bring in the Gravis armour wave for marines (tie in with Deathwing since it was revealed in WD that they are using Gravis in DW now)
Well of course lots of people are going to go FFS MORE Marines as the Core Marines are almost certain to get a lod more stuff = as they did in PA2.
And then apparently the same for PA4, 5, 6, 7..............
I don't think we will see any more for Core Marines, just the ones left behind (BA, DA, SW, DW, GK). Exception being whenever they decide to release their Gravis wave.
bullyboy wrote: The book has to have a ton of rules for Blood Angels (unless they are planning on doing a relaunch of the codex) as they will have to catch up to the other standard marine codexes. This means Doctrines, a Super Doctrine, Litanies, new super characters (as marines just received). So before people start screaming "more marines, wut?!" just realize where BA are currently, what they will need to be on par with other marines, and maintain expectations accordingly.
What is interesting is this will lead off for other marine chapters. If it's a full update, then Wolves (next) DA, DW and GK can expect the same when their books drop.
I think next year we will see SW vs Orks (known), DA vs Fallen, DW vs Tau, GK vs Daemons (not sure on order of latter 3). Just my expectations. I also think DA vs Fallen will also bring in the Gravis armour wave for marines (tie in with Deathwing since it was revealed in WD that they are using Gravis in DW now)
Well of course lots of people are going to go FFS MORE Marines as the Core Marines are almost certain to get a lod more stuff = as they did in PA2.
And then apparently the same for PA4, 5, 6, 7..............
I don't think we will see any more for Core Marines, just the ones left behind (BA, DA, SW, DW, GK). Exception being whenever they decide to release their Gravis wave.
bullyboy wrote: The book has to have a ton of rules for Blood Angels (unless they are planning on doing a relaunch of the codex) as they will have to catch up to the other standard marine codexes. This means Doctrines, a Super Doctrine, Litanies, new super characters (as marines just received). So before people start screaming "more marines, wut?!" just realize where BA are currently, what they will need to be on par with other marines, and maintain expectations accordingly.
What is interesting is this will lead off for other marine chapters. If it's a full update, then Wolves (next) DA, DW and GK can expect the same when their books drop.
I think next year we will see SW vs Orks (known), DA vs Fallen, DW vs Tau, GK vs Daemons (not sure on order of latter 3). Just my expectations. I also think DA vs Fallen will also bring in the Gravis armour wave for marines (tie in with Deathwing since it was revealed in WD that they are using Gravis in DW now)
Yeah we wouldn't want a faction with "marines " in the name to have inferior rules to other "marines ".
Virules wrote: For those interested, I did a lengthy walk-through on my Chaos YouTube channel discussing what I think are the stand-out new abilities and combos in the book:
JWBS wrote: Marneus has had three iterations in the time that Tycho, Dante, Ragnar, Ezekiel, Azrael, Asmodai, Corbulo etc have had one. Do GW not write new characters anymore? It seemed like back in the day when I bought codices that there were occasional new characters sprinkled in between editions. They just don't bother anymore or what?
Technically Corbulo had two, the 'Sanguinary Priest' model looks exactly like him, only better, down to his relic chainsword. Really, names of both minis should be swapped. And what? No new characters? There were like 4 added in most recent edition of SM codex...
bullyboy wrote: The book has to have a ton of rules for Blood Angels (unless they are planning on doing a relaunch of the codex) as they will have to catch up to the other standard marine codexes. This means Doctrines, a Super Doctrine, Litanies, new super characters (as marines just received). So before people start screaming "more marines, wut?!" just realize where BA are currently, what they will need to be on par with other marines, and maintain expectations accordingly.
What is interesting is this will lead off for other marine chapters. If it's a full update, then Wolves (next) DA, DW and GK can expect the same when their books drop.
I think next year we will see SW vs Orks (known), DA vs Fallen, DW vs Tau, GK vs Daemons (not sure on order of latter 3). Just my expectations. I also think DA vs Fallen will also bring in the Gravis armour wave for marines (tie in with Deathwing since it was revealed in WD that they are using Gravis in DW now)
Well of course lots of people are going to go FFS MORE Marines as the Core Marines are almost certain to get a lod more stuff = as they did in PA2.
And then apparently the same for PA4, 5, 6, 7..............
I don't think we will see any more for Core Marines, just the ones left behind (BA, DA, SW, DW, GK). Exception being whenever they decide to release their Gravis wave.
Yeah - we will have to see.
Well it's not like vanilla marines got a ton of rules in Shield of Baal. or the Fenris campaign books. while some of us might via Blood angels, dark angels etc as "just a glorified marines supplement" GW tends to view them as distinct armies
Virules wrote: For those interested, I did a lengthy walk-through on my Chaos YouTube channel discussing what I think are the stand-out new abilities and combos in the book:
Thanks! I am still getting started, but 6 episodes in and I've learned a lot about the hardware and software to make a better show. I always have plenty to say, it was just a challenge to learn something new.
Now I just need to figure out how to get subscribers and promote the channel!
Virules wrote: For those interested, I did a lengthy walk-through on my Chaos YouTube channel discussing what I think are the stand-out new abilities and combos in the book:
Thanks! I am still getting started, but 6 episodes in and I've learned a lot about the hardware and software to make a better show. I always have plenty to say, it was just a challenge to learn something new.
Now I just need to figure out how to get subscribers and promote the channel!
You seem a relaxed presenter, engaging with your followers and are quite knowledgeable about all things Chaos. Just keep up the good work and the ball rolling.
If you do run out of ideas and get bored, a Tzeentch/Thousand Sons guide would be great.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I might need to make my Primaris Apothecary a Chief Apothecary. That is a decent boost. Not sure which WL trait to give him though.
A Chief Apothecary supporting Centurions and/or Agressors with either of the WT and maybe even the 5++ relic could make them really resilient.
A Master of Sanctity with the 5+ ignore MW and +1 to hit/+1 to wound/5+ overwatch (for IFs) is also a great option to buff such a heavy infantry castle.
It's great to have choices here.
Virules wrote: For those interested, I did a lengthy walk-through on my Chaos YouTube channel discussing what I think are the stand-out new abilities and combos in the book:
Thanks! I am still getting started, but 6 episodes in and I've learned a lot about the hardware and software to make a better show. I always have plenty to say, it was just a challenge to learn something new.
Now I just need to figure out how to get subscribers and promote the channel!
Liked the show. Good delivery and you seem to know your stuff.
Plus you realize night lords aren't "garbage ". You understand how to use their trait. Try using it to soften up a big target for a hellforged Cerberus. Works great.
Virules wrote: For those interested, I did a lengthy walk-through on my Chaos YouTube channel discussing what I think are the stand-out new abilities and combos in the book:
Thanks! I am still getting started, but 6 episodes in and I've learned a lot about the hardware and software to make a better show. I always have plenty to say, it was just a challenge to learn something new.
Now I just need to figure out how to get subscribers and promote the channel!
You seem a relaxed presenter, engaging with your followers and are quite knowledgeable about all things Chaos. Just keep up the good work and the ball rolling.
If you do run out of ideas and get bored, a Tzeentch/Thousand Sons guide would be great.
Cheers.
That is a great idea. I will keep Tzeentch and Thousands Sons in mind as a future episode. Now that I think about it, others have requested that before as well.
For all its flaws at least Vigilus felt like a cohesive campaign narrative to base games in. So far Psychic Awakening seems more like a bunch of Codex patches with some fluff tacked on
GoatboyBeta wrote: For all its flaws at least Vigilus felt like a cohesive campaign narrative to base games in. So far Psychic Awakening seems more like a bunch of Codex patches with some fluff tacked on
I agree with this 100%. Vigilus stuff felt like extra stuff for the forces that was optional. PA feels like a very inefficient way to do codex updates.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I might need to make my Primaris Apothecary a Chief Apothecary. That is a decent boost. Not sure which WL trait to give him though.
A Chief Apothecary supporting Centurions and/or Agressors with either of the WT and maybe even the 5++ relic could make them really resilient.
A Master of Sanctity with the 5+ ignore MW and +1 to hit/+1 to wound/5+ overwatch (for IFs) is also a great option to buff such a heavy infantry castle.
It's great to have choices here.
I figured he will ride with some Hellblasters in an Impulsor. The Relic gives him a 5++ as well, so they will be pretty resilient if they hug the Apothecary. Being able to bring two dudes back up a turn is pretty great, especially since those rolls are able to be rerolled.
GoatboyBeta wrote: For all its flaws at least Vigilus felt like a cohesive campaign narrative to base games in. So far Psychic Awakening seems more like a bunch of Codex patches with some fluff tacked on
You're being overly generous.
Random_World is Super Important!! Go shoot some... Chaos boys, to save the Imperium. Go forth, forces of...Black Templars!
Next up is Blood Angels fighting on Less_Important_World against the evil... Tyranids!. In a battle that's totally not a redo of a novel where the fight was randomly interrupted by the chapter's Arch-Rival Greater Daemon before he killed all the 'nids, got bored and wandered off.
The 'fluff' for PA has descended into full on MadLibs.
Am I the only person who's feeling totally burned out on PA? Like they started off by pushing it REALLY hard, and so far...?
Very underwhelming. PA1 was barely interesting, PA2 comes with very little, and seems to be designed to play second banana to the SOB debacle, the Inquisition dex drops in that it doesn't and is relegated to a few pages of WD, and then a "Made to Order" re-run of all things, despite the only coherent thread through all of PA being the inquisitor character, until that was dropped for...
...More first founding loyalist chapters? Which is a pet peeve of mine, considering they have SO MUCH support anyway, and I'll be thoroughly shocked if any of the dead 'nids in that trailer get anything at all. PA is starting to feel like a half-hearted swing and then a resounding miss. I was looking forward to it, but now it really just seems like filler to justify slopping out a few unrelated characters just before Xmas.
posermcbogus wrote: Am I the only person who's feeling totally burned out on PA? Like they started off by pushing it REALLY hard, and so far...?
Very underwhelming. PA1 was barely interesting, PA2 comes with very little, and seems to be designed to play second banana to the SOB debacle, the Inquisition dex drops in that it doesn't and is relegated to a few pages of WD, and then a "Made to Order" re-run of all things, despite the only coherent thread through all of PA being the inquisitor character, until that was dropped for...
...More first founding loyalist chapters? Which is a pet peeve of mine, considering they have SO MUCH support anyway, and I'll be thoroughly shocked if any of the dead 'nids in that trailer get anything at all. PA is starting to feel like a half-hearted swing and then a resounding miss. I was looking forward to it, but now it really just seems like filler to justify slopping out a few unrelated characters just before Xmas.
Half-baked, and a cynical approach to fans.
what support have blood angels gotten this edition beyond "ohh and you can use these primaris"?
I 'spose because they spent so much time hyping it up as the next big chapter in 40K, and it turns out that it's just, as Goatboy put it, "So far Psychic Awakening seems more like a bunch of Codex patches with some fluff tacked on".
Plus the fact that it's called "Psychic Awakening", and so far the two books released don't appear to have anything to do with that theme. The next one is BA vs 'Nids 2: This Time It's Personal, so not so much as an awakening as a hitting of the Mars-Pattern snooze button.
what support have blood angels gotten this edition beyond "ohh and you can use these primaris"?
Oh, do forgive me for not specifically listing all the neglect you poor Blood Angel players have been subjected to, between an upgrade sprue, all the primaris kits, a chapter specific character, a unique codex and a meta-topping captain build before getting an additional shot in the arm as the big shots of the next suppliment, and an updated character, not to mention a slew of gorgeous FW models, but by all means, friend, please go off on how Blood Angels are so unloved with your massive catalogue of unique models an access to the largest pool of minis in the GW range, you guys have it so hard, you're right and I'm wrong, I'm so sorry for not being excited enough about PA3, I promise I'll watch the trailer 8 times when I get off work.
posermcbogus wrote: Am I the only person who's feeling totally burned out on PA? Like they started off by pushing it REALLY hard, and so far...?
Very underwhelming. PA1 was barely interesting, PA2 comes with very little, and seems to be designed to play second banana to the SOB debacle, the Inquisition dex drops in that it doesn't and is relegated to a few pages of WD, and then a "Made to Order" re-run of all things, despite the only coherent thread through all of PA being the inquisitor character, until that was dropped for...
...More first founding loyalist chapters? Which is a pet peeve of mine, considering they have SO MUCH support anyway, and I'll be thoroughly shocked if any of the dead 'nids in that trailer get anything at all. PA is starting to feel like a half-hearted swing and then a resounding miss. I was looking forward to it, but now it really just seems like filler to justify slopping out a few unrelated characters just before Xmas.
Half-baked, and a cynical approach to fans.
Yea, I thought this would be a campaign for every faction equally. That's how they initially pushed it, but it's becoming clear that the campaign serves as a backdrop to bring marines of all flavours up to Codex Astartes level while giving other NPC factions a tiny feature in an attempt to keep them satisfied.
It feels incredibly lazy, bland and uninspired at this point. Hopefully that changes but I'm not counting on it.
posermcbogus wrote: Am I the only person who's feeling totally burned out on PA? Like they started off by pushing it REALLY hard, and so far...?
Very underwhelming. PA1 was barely interesting, PA2 comes with very little, and seems to be designed to play second banana to the SOB debacle, the Inquisition dex drops in that it doesn't and is relegated to a few pages of WD, and then a "Made to Order" re-run of all things, despite the only coherent thread through all of PA being the inquisitor character, until that was dropped for...
...More first founding loyalist chapters? Which is a pet peeve of mine, considering they have SO MUCH support anyway, and I'll be thoroughly shocked if any of the dead 'nids in that trailer get anything at all. PA is starting to feel like a half-hearted swing and then a resounding miss. I was looking forward to it, but now it really just seems like filler to justify slopping out a few unrelated characters just before Xmas.
Half-baked, and a cynical approach to fans.
what support have blood angels gotten this edition beyond "ohh and you can use these primaris"?
Well, how many new units and models do you have now compared to 7th edition? A dozen? Even more?
What support have tau and necron got this edition beyond "ohh here's a shiny new kroot tracker in the BSF box and a new plastic cryptek"?
Not Online!!! wrote: Otoh the gw support is also iffy, cue csm, 10 rules releases and still the same issues...
In defense of CSM, they're at least a broader church than "red space marines".
CSM dex is more like a bridge, with each Legion / subfaction beeing a pillar.
Out of 11 pillars, 3 work. the 4th (BL,) got a new paintcoat but is allready splintering off and the the rest is in varrying states of rotten, and GW provides here a dash of new paint instead of fixing the pillars.
So to speak.
And sure they are are a broader church with more really distinct archetypes, due to the hybrid nature in parts with daemons and GEQ internalized, but both these specific hybrid archetypes got also nerfed into the ground or were never really something that worked successfully.
Daemonkin and Daemonengines are just chronically overpriced, maybee WB and or IW will FINNALLY make them work as intended. (i doubt it is enough but i let myself be surprised.)
Whilest Daemonkinlists are straddled with their core unit beeing overpriced and aswell suffering from the WAY-TOO-MANY-EGGS-IN-ONE-BASKET syndrome that CSM allready were skirting around in.
Then there is also again the great stratagem design showing with butcher termites, which by all means should've been an unique unit as a whole, not one unit upgrade for an ALLREADY CP starved army.
BA will have 20 new strategems! 6 additional relics! 3 new Primarisified characters! Army wide special rules! Red special dice and a detailed history of the chapter it's heroes and their conquests. Plus 4 new Lieutenants!
Nid players; don't worry, you'll get a new rule too! Like at the beginning of every turn if you roll a 6, your shadows in the warp range is increased by 1". IN EVERY DIRECTION! Also, read up on how you were crushed by the Ultramarines, the Blood Angels, Random Marine chapter #67 and many more absolute spankings to boot!
Ork, Tau and 'Crons players will have to wait for their breadcrumbs later in the year!
Wait, is there an imbalance between what Marines are getting Vs Xenos?! This is uncharted territory! We need to explore it further and discuss it at length so the entire community can be aware!
Sentineil wrote: Wait, is there an imbalance between what Marines are getting Vs Xenos?! This is uncharted territory! We need to explore it further and discuss it at length so the entire community can be aware!
Maybe if it did not keep happening all the time it would not news and so irritating....especially when some people are so keen to point how hard done by exlcusive marine players are, have and will be.
bullyboy wrote: The book has to have a ton of rules for Blood Angels (unless they are planning on doing a relaunch of the codex) as they will have to catch up to the other standard marine codexes. This means Doctrines, a Super Doctrine, Litanies, new super characters (as marines just received). So before people start screaming "more marines, wut?!" just realize where BA are currently, what they will need to be on par with other marines, and maintain expectations accordingly.
What is interesting is this will lead off for other marine chapters. If it's a full update, then Wolves (next) DA, DW and GK can expect the same when their books drop.
I think next year we will see SW vs Orks (known), DA vs Fallen, DW vs Tau, GK vs Daemons (not sure on order of latter 3). Just my expectations. I also think DA vs Fallen will also bring in the Gravis armour wave for marines (tie in with Deathwing since it was revealed in WD that they are using Gravis in DW now)
No, this isn't interesting in the slightest, as a Nids player it's very worrying. I don't particularly want GW to go 3 for 3 on screwing up on the armies I play, it's even more worrying for Nids than it is with Craftworlds and Drukhari as they've fallen much further down the power curve over the last year and half.
posermcbogus wrote: Am I the only person who's feeling totally burned out on PA? Like they started off by pushing it REALLY hard, and so far...?
Very underwhelming. PA1 was barely interesting, PA2 comes with very little, and seems to be designed to play second banana to the SOB debacle, the Inquisition dex drops in that it doesn't and is relegated to a few pages of WD, and then a "Made to Order" re-run of all things, despite the only coherent thread through all of PA being the inquisitor character, until that was dropped for...
...More first founding loyalist chapters? Which is a pet peeve of mine, considering they have SO MUCH support anyway, and I'll be thoroughly shocked if any of the dead 'nids in that trailer get anything at all. PA is starting to feel like a half-hearted swing and then a resounding miss. I was looking forward to it, but now it really just seems like filler to justify slopping out a few unrelated characters just before Xmas.
Half-baked, and a cynical approach to fans.
Most of your points are perfectly valid, but i sure as gak don't agree with your assessment of the new Inquisition rules, it's going to change the meta (won't break SM armies ala Assassins).
Rex alone is worth fielding, 3++, 2 casts/3 denies, now give him a few acolytes and toss them all in a Drop Pod
bullyboy wrote: The book has to have a ton of rules for Blood Angels (unless they are planning on doing a relaunch of the codex) as they will have to catch up to the other standard marine codexes. This means Doctrines, a Super Doctrine, Litanies, new super characters (as marines just received). So before people start screaming "more marines, wut?!" just realize where BA are currently, what they will need to be on par with other marines, and maintain expectations accordingly.
What is interesting is this will lead off for other marine chapters. If it's a full update, then Wolves (next) DA, DW and GK can expect the same when their books drop.
I think next year we will see SW vs Orks (known), DA vs Fallen, DW vs Tau, GK vs Daemons (not sure on order of latter 3). Just my expectations. I also think DA vs Fallen will also bring in the Gravis armour wave for marines (tie in with Deathwing since it was revealed in WD that they are using Gravis in DW now)
No, this isn't interesting in the slightest, as a Nids player it's very worrying. I don't particularly want GW to go 3 for 3 on screwing up on the armies I play, it's even more worrying for Nids than it is with Craftworlds and Drukhari as they've fallen much further down the power curve over the last year and half.
From the leaks it looks like we're getting a new Hive Tyrant, we could see the same basic rules in place for upgrading him to the bug equivalent of a Chapter Master. It can't be any worse than the Custodies "preview", one gakky character model, thats going to bring the army back /s
I'm just saying people should adjust their expectations accordingly. Would be nice if nids got more, but just expect BA to be given a boost. Numarines skewed everything, so now non codex compliant marines have to be broight in line. Thinking otherwise would be foolish. If you were a pure BA player, you just can't compete with numarines at all.
I can't comment on what nids need as I'm not familiar, but hope something gets addressed.
From the leaks it looks like we're getting a new Hive Tyrant, we could see the same basic rules in place for upgrading him to the bug equivalent of a Chapter Master. It can't be any worse than the Custodies "preview", one gakky character model, thats going to bring the army back /s
We are not getting a new Hive Tyrant, we are getting a repackaged box and likely a price hike as a freebie.
From the leaks it looks like we're getting a new Hive Tyrant, we could see the same basic rules in place for upgrading him to the bug equivalent of a Chapter Master. It can't be any worse than the Custodies "preview", one gakky character model, thats going to bring the army back /s
We are not getting a new Hive Tyrant, we are getting a repackaged box and likely a price hike as a freebie.
Why do people post crap like this when we literally have the price?
You know enough to say "we are getting a repackaged box" but not enough to know that the price is the same?
Spoiler:
There's a whole thread on the second page that was devoted tot hese leaks when they happened.
How old is the current hive tyrant? Is it really in that much need of a remake? It looks fine to me, ditto with termagants. I mean, its not bad, and overall I think the nid range is just fine, but aren't there still finecast models that should be brought to plastic?
Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: How old is the current hive tyrant? Is it really in that much need of a remake? It looks fine to me, ditto with termagants?
I mean, its not bad, but aren't there still finecast models that should be brought to plastic?
2012 for the Hive Tyrant, and it's getting re-packaged not re-made. That just means new box art and assembly instructions with 8E rules.
zend wrote: Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
Blood Angels haven't even been an army for 20 years (i think they were called Angels of Death).
zend wrote: Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
Blood Angels haven't even been an army for 20 years (i think they were called Angels of Death).
3rd edition was 20 years ago now, which is when the BA codex debuted.
posermcbogus wrote: Am I the only person who's feeling totally burned out on PA? Like they started off by pushing it REALLY hard, and so far...?
Very underwhelming. PA1 was barely interesting, PA2 comes with very little, and seems to be designed to play second banana to the SOB debacle, the Inquisition dex drops in that it doesn't and is relegated to a few pages of WD, and then a "Made to Order" re-run of all things, despite the only coherent thread through all of PA being the inquisitor character, until that was dropped for...
...More first founding loyalist chapters? Which is a pet peeve of mine, considering they have SO MUCH support anyway, and I'll be thoroughly shocked if any of the dead 'nids in that trailer get anything at all. PA is starting to feel like a half-hearted swing and then a resounding miss. I was looking forward to it, but now it really just seems like filler to justify slopping out a few unrelated characters just before Xmas.
zend wrote: Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
Blood Angels haven't even been an army for 20 years (i think they were called Angels of Death).
Blood Angels have been around since RT. Angels of Death was just the name of the book that had both BA and DA rules in it.
zend wrote: Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
Blood Angels haven't even been an army for 20 years (i think they were called Angels of Death).
What in the world are you talking about? They were on the boxset for 2nd edition.
zend wrote: Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
Blood Angels haven't even been an army for 20 years (i think they were called Angels of Death).
Man, my 3E Blood Angels codex is really well done for a knock-off.
Kirasu wrote: What in the world are you talking about? They were on the boxset for 2nd edition.
My mistake, i started playing during 3rd, could have sworn there were no Blood Angels until the late 90s, should have said "correct me if i'm wrong" and you did.
zend wrote: Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
Blood Angels haven't even been an army for 20 years (i think they were called Angels of Death).
What in the world are you talking about? They were on the boxset for 2nd edition.
I think the inference is that they were just Space Marines rules wise until the release of the 2nd Ed Codex Angels of Death.
But CAOD was published in 1996, making it 23 years old (* pulls grey hairs out of beard *), so the point still isn't valid.
GW forgot to produce an infinite amount of stock for a limited edition product, and it sold out quickly.
They sold out within 1 min of going on sale in the uk (I was lucky to get one) which was frustrating to many - GW appologised for massively underestimated demand in latest Warhammer Community post
GW forgot to produce an infinite amount of stock for a limited edition product, and it sold out quickly.
It's limited edition...that's sort of the point, isn't it? The kits will be along by Christmas.
The kits are early 2020 and was sold out in under 5 minutes so no models for sisters players for 2-3 months now.
Are we sure? I recall GW saying that the other models were on their way "Soon" and I'm thinking soon means December.
We are. It doesn't. At best it means late January or February.
Just saw the article from today, it's in early January. Not that long to wait.
They mention early next year and January separately, previous rumours said Feb so I'd suggest preorders for last week in Jan possibly? Either way there's a player base out there for an army with an updated codex they cant buy for 2+ months which is a poor showing, even if they didn't release the kits.
I hope his revamp is as epic in quality (although not size) as Abaddon's was recently. They really knocked it out of the park on that one in that they respected the original art/model's design while updating it to modern standards. I love that original 2nd edition codex pic of Mephiston and am looking forward to seeing it in figure form.
GW forgot to produce an infinite amount of stock for a limited edition product, and it sold out quickly.
They sold out within 1 min of going on sale in the uk (I was lucky to get one) which was frustrating to many - GW appologised for massively underestimated demand in latest Warhammer Community post
Let's not overdo it - it was 12-13 minutes in the UK, apparently about 30min in North America. Which is ridiculously fast enough as it is! And it would have been even faster if everybody could have accessed the website and it hadn't been slowed down due to the amount of visitors...
zend wrote: Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
lol imagine being a marine player and acting this aggrieved in 2019
GW forgot to produce an infinite amount of stock for a limited edition product, and it sold out quickly.
They sold out within 1 min of going on sale in the uk (I was lucky to get one) which was frustrating to many - GW appologised for massively underestimated demand in latest Warhammer Community post
Let's not overdo it - it was 12-13 minutes in the UK, apparently about 30min in North America. Which is ridiculously fast enough as it is! And it would have been even faster if everybody could have accessed the website and it hadn't been slowed down due to the amount of visitors...
GW forgot to produce an infinite amount of stock for a limited edition product, and it sold out quickly.
They sold out within 1 min of going on sale in the uk (I was lucky to get one) which was frustrating to many - GW appologised for massively underestimated demand in latest Warhammer Community post
Let's not overdo it - it was 12-13 minutes in the UK, apparently about 30min in North America. Which is ridiculously fast enough as it is! And it would have been even faster if everybody could have accessed the website and it hadn't been slowed down due to the amount of visitors...
I was logged in and cashed out as soon as it appeared - about 9.59 on my computer - as soon as processed - about a minute I went back to have a browse on the site and the GW site had crashed - by the time it came bakc it was sold out.
zend wrote: Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
lol imagine being a marine player and acting this aggrieved in 2019
I know right - when a sub faction of a sub faction has more character models than most complete Factions, has had their own super special upgrade kits and flow of models from FW and still feels hard done by - sheesh entitled much
GW forgot to produce an infinite amount of stock for a limited edition product, and it sold out quickly.
They sold out within 1 min of going on sale in the uk (I was lucky to get one) which was frustrating to many - GW appologised for massively underestimated demand in latest Warhammer Community post
Let's not overdo it - it was 12-13 minutes in the UK, apparently about 30min in North America. Which is ridiculously fast enough as it is! And it would have been even faster if everybody could have accessed the website and it hadn't been slowed down due to the amount of visitors...
It was 2 min in europe from what I remember ?
Was refreshing the page every minute - saw pre-orders up at 9:59 (GMT), got a copy, then figured I'd continue F5-ing for a few minutes to see if it would sell out that quickly. It went out of stock between 10:11 and 10:12.
Had continuous access throughout, even when switching between the Finnish and UK site and back (aside from the fact that it was a bit slow). Though it does seem that no or few people were able to get to the website at all shortly after 10, so in that sense only those arriving in the very first minutes were able to grab a box.
One thing I'm surprised about in all the PA releases has been a lack of specialist detachments. They were all the rage in Vigilus but they seemed to have dropped the concept for PA. Not saying it is good or bad, just seems like strange and quick change of direction design wise.
SamusDrake wrote: Never mind Mr Stephanie Meyer and his sparkling boys - where's the real stars of the show who have more teeth than the entire Osmond family?
Somehow I think GW are playing this from the wrong angle. Whatever next? Smurfs in power armour?
My dog that works at GW found this leaked list of pick-2 chapter traits that are the only thing nids are getting in the book, I think they really fit the flavor GW has been going for with xenos armies:
Spoiler:
Hulking Monstrosities: When an opponent rolls Overwatch against a charging unit with this trait, the attacks hit on a 5 or 6
Level Grinding: Any objectives that specify destroying models count units with this trait as double the models or units destroyed
Cinematic Entry: When a unit with this trait deep strikes, your opponent may select one IMPERIUM unit, that unit may shoot at the deep striking unit as if it were the shooting phase.
Endless Profit Swarm: HORMAGANT and TERMAGANT models with this trait cost 1 point per model. However, they are reduced to A1, T1, S1, cannot make shooting attacks, cannot secure objectives, and enemy models may move through them as if they were not there.
Inspiring Heroics: Enemy CHARACTER models may fight twice in the fight phase against MONSTROUS CREATURE or CHARACTER units with this trait
SamusDrake wrote: Never mind Mr Stephanie Meyer and his sparkling boys - where's the real stars of the show who have more teeth than the entire Osmond family?
Somehow I think GW are playing this from the wrong angle. Whatever next? Smurfs in power armour?
My dog that works at GW found this leaked list of pick-2 chapter traits that are the only thing nids are getting in the book, I think they really fit the flavor GW has been going for with xenos armies:
Spoiler:
Hulking Monstrosities: When an opponent rolls Overwatch against a charging unit with this trait, the attacks hit on a 5 or 6
Level Grinding: Any objectives that specify destroying models count units with this trait as double the models or units destroyed
Cinematic Entry: When a unit with this trait deep strikes, your opponent may select one IMPERIUM unit, that unit may shoot at the deep striking unit as if it were the shooting phase.
Endless Profit Swarm: HORMAGANT and TERMAGANT models with this trait cost 1 point per model. However, they are reduced to A1, T1, S1, cannot make shooting attacks, cannot secure objectives, and enemy models may move through them as if they were not there.
Inspiring Heroics: Enemy CHARACTER models may fight twice in the fight phase against MONSTROUS CREATURE or CHARACTER units with this trait
Sigh. Might as well have the "Cheap Initiative" trait...
"When the tyranid player wins the initiative roll, they lose the game by default."
It's a unpopular to speculate on what new stuff Marines are getting, but I am really curious how they will treat BA and SW. They are Marines so its safe to assume they will get a similar treatment like BT, but they also do not share C:SM codex so they might get the chaos treatment or worse...
It would be nice to see some more fluff about the wulfen and their time in the warp, or get support for the wolf packs but that's another unpopular opinion among SW fans
zend wrote: Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
lol imagine being a marine player and acting this aggrieved in 2019
I know right - when a sub faction of a sub faction has more character models than most complete Factions, has had their own super special upgrade kits and flow of models from FW and still feels hard done by - sheesh entitled much
zend wrote: Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
You don't even know the half of it. I want a resculpt for Swarmie putting him in the LoW tier, Resculpted and plastic Lictors, Biovores, Pyrovores, Shrikes, Red Terror, Deathleaper, and maybe redone troops, because feth those split-headed builds. I want Lictors in broods of 3, and for Deathleaper to be actively scary, for My vanguard units to actually work well and not be practically useless. Give us Shrikes back with an upgrade kit for Warriors, give us an expansive list of biomorphs like we had in 5th, MORE psychic/biomancy powers, do wacky and weird biological weapons (feth space marine dreads for having a million different weapon loadouts). There's so much that can be done with an ever evolving and bio-engineered race that every time there is a Tyranid release, it actively makes me less likely to play the game because it's always something boring or a half-baked design.
Looking at you Toxicrene, you're just a venomthrope smushed onto a Maleceptor body, who is already boring for being a 'brain bug'.
My disappointment is boundless and my vitriol is acidic in my stomach.
But honestly I just want more cool alien designs/beasts for my army, and it's frustrating that they don't want to do that with a faction that could really easily do that.
Racerguy180 wrote: I dont play Nids but it would be dope if they updated some of the units.
But you do realise that would mean less Primaris lieutenants.
To be fair, there isn't any indication there's going to be more of those with these books. The Black Templar presence in PA2 came with no new SM models at all, and all the lumped chaos legions produced... one model. Even the supplements really only produced character models, and the only thing on the 40k sales list for PA3/December is Mephisty Prime. Its a bit of a muddle since the actual codex SM release was dragged out like a dog's butt in a hallway, but most of the real SM releases are that and finally breaking up Shadowspear.
Presumably Wolf Awakening and Dark Awakening will also just produce a single replacement Primaris character for the relevant subchapter.
Now maybe this will change, but at least some of it likely has to do with the new production facilities not being up and running full speed yet. So we get a quick progression of crappy books with thin to no model releases.
GW forgot to produce an infinite amount of stock for a limited edition product, and it sold out quickly.
They sold out within 1 min of going on sale in the uk (I was lucky to get one) which was frustrating to many - GW appologised for massively underestimated demand in latest Warhammer Community post
Let's not overdo it - it was 12-13 minutes in the UK, apparently about 30min in North America. Which is ridiculously fast enough as it is! And it would have been even faster if everybody could have accessed the website and it hadn't been slowed down due to the amount of visitors...
I was logged in and cashed out as soon as it appeared - about 9.59 on my computer - as soon as processed - about a minute I went back to have a browse on the site and the GW site had crashed - by the time it came bakc it was sold out.
zend wrote: Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
lol imagine being a marine player and acting this aggrieved in 2019
I know right - when a sub faction of a sub faction has more character models than most complete Factions, has had their own super special upgrade kits and flow of models from FW and still feels hard done by - sheesh entitled much
ok, I'm going to say it in large bold letters for you, and you're still going to refuse to accept it.
[b]Blood Angels are their own codex, demanding GW ignore them because Marines got something is unreasonable
Are we sure? I recall GW saying that the other models were on their way "Soon" and I'm thinking soon means December.
Soon doesn't mean "within month" and we know release schedule for this year already. No sisters in sight. Ergo earliest it can be is january. And no quarantee it's then either.
ok, I'm going to say it in large bold letters for you, and you're still going to refuse to accept it.
[b]Blood Angels are their own codex, demanding GW ignore them because Marines got something is unreasonable
Interesting use of big, bold letters. He isn’t saying GW should ignore BA, he’s saying it’s entitled for BA players to expect more than Tyranid players by virtue of being Marines. And it is. It’s also a fallacy to claim that BA haven’t had an update recently because they benefit from every Marine release of which there have been an abundance.
GW forgot to produce an infinite amount of stock for a limited edition product, and it sold out quickly.
They sold out within 1 min of going on sale in the uk (I was lucky to get one) which was frustrating to many - GW appologised for massively underestimated demand in latest Warhammer Community post
Let's not overdo it - it was 12-13 minutes in the UK, apparently about 30min in North America. Which is ridiculously fast enough as it is! And it would have been even faster if everybody could have accessed the website and it hadn't been slowed down due to the amount of visitors...
I was logged in and cashed out as soon as it appeared - about 9.59 on my computer - as soon as processed - about a minute I went back to have a browse on the site and the GW site had crashed - by the time it came bakc it was sold out.
zend wrote: Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
lol imagine being a marine player and acting this aggrieved in 2019
I know right - when a sub faction of a sub faction has more character models than most complete Factions, has had their own super special upgrade kits and flow of models from FW and still feels hard done by - sheesh entitled much
ok, I'm going to say it in large bold letters for you, and you're still going to refuse to accept it.
[b]Blood Angels are their own codex, demanding GW ignore them because Marines got something is unreasonable
Iyanden are (as in "used to be") their own codex, demanding GW ignore them because Eldar got something is unreasonable...
Well, I hear Chaos players have 10 (!!) different sources to draw rules from, so clearly anyone, including myself, hoping for better rules for Chaos is clearly entitled.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Well, I hear Chaos players have 10 (!!) different sources to draw rules from, so clearly anyone, including myself, hoping for better rules for Chaos is clearly entitled.
Where's the line between being entitled or not?
Spoiler:
(tbf if GW would've done a propper job neither CSM nor C:SM would've needed a dex 2.0 to begin with.) But that would put the blame on GW and not the filthy x player y plaer x faction y faction.
GW forgot to produce an infinite amount of stock for a limited edition product, and it sold out quickly.
They sold out within 1 min of going on sale in the uk (I was lucky to get one) which was frustrating to many - GW appologised for massively underestimated demand in latest Warhammer Community post
Let's not overdo it - it was 12-13 minutes in the UK, apparently about 30min in North America. Which is ridiculously fast enough as it is! And it would have been even faster if everybody could have accessed the website and it hadn't been slowed down due to the amount of visitors...
I was logged in and cashed out as soon as it appeared - about 9.59 on my computer - as soon as processed - about a minute I went back to have a browse on the site and the GW site had crashed - by the time it came bakc it was sold out.
zend wrote: Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
lol imagine being a marine player and acting this aggrieved in 2019
I know right - when a sub faction of a sub faction has more character models than most complete Factions, has had their own super special upgrade kits and flow of models from FW and still feels hard done by - sheesh entitled much
ok, I'm going to say it in large bold letters for you, and you're still going to refuse to accept it.
[b]Blood Angels are their own codex, demanding GW ignore them because Marines got something is unreasonable
Iyanden are (as in "used to be") their own codex, demanding GW ignore them because Eldar got something is unreasonable...
Interesting use of big, bold letters. He isn’t saying GW should ignore BA, he’s saying it’s entitled for BA players to expect more than Tyranid players by virtue of being Marines. And it is. It’s also a fallacy to claim that BA haven’t had an update recently because they benefit from every Marine release of which there have been an abundance.
Well, lucky coincidence that GW's Space-Vampire-theme army was launched in more frugal days on the basis of double-dipping Marine miniatures, while their Space-Bug-theme army was not. Perhaps in a different time line of the 80s GW had done it the other way around.
GW forgot to produce an infinite amount of stock for a limited edition product, and it sold out quickly.
They sold out within 1 min of going on sale in the uk (I was lucky to get one) which was frustrating to many - GW appologised for massively underestimated demand in latest Warhammer Community post
Let's not overdo it - it was 12-13 minutes in the UK, apparently about 30min in North America. Which is ridiculously fast enough as it is! And it would have been even faster if everybody could have accessed the website and it hadn't been slowed down due to the amount of visitors...
I was logged in and cashed out as soon as it appeared - about 9.59 on my computer - as soon as processed - about a minute I went back to have a browse on the site and the GW site had crashed - by the time it came bakc it was sold out.
zend wrote: Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
lol imagine being a marine player and acting this aggrieved in 2019
I know right - when a sub faction of a sub faction has more character models than most complete Factions, has had their own super special upgrade kits and flow of models from FW and still feels hard done by - sheesh entitled much
ok, I'm going to say it in large bold letters for you, and you're still going to refuse to accept it.
[b]Blood Angels are their own codex, demanding GW ignore them because Marines got something is unreasonable
Iyanden are (as in "used to be") their own codex, demanding GW ignore them because Eldar got something is unreasonable...
[/spoiler]
Codex Supplment /= codex
But why is Iyanden a supplement and Blood Angels aren't? I get your point and you are right, but for a xenos player the distinction is arbitrary. There are Eldar, which use Craftworlds, or Orks split in Klans, different Regiments of the IA the same way like there are Space Marines and their chapters. Why is one considered a "full" codex and the other isn't?
There are only two reasons: For sales reasons or "it always used to be like that". Both reasons are not a satisfactory explanation for a customer that is not collecting Space Marines
There is no meaningful distinction between "Codex" and "Supplement".
GW goes through a couple of years where sub-factions get "Codexes" (e.g. Death Guard & Thousand Sons more recently), and a couple of years where they get "supplements" (currently hot now, as in previous editions for Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter, Iyanden, Imperial Fists, etc..).
GW forgot to produce an infinite amount of stock for a limited edition product, and it sold out quickly.
They sold out within 1 min of going on sale in the uk (I was lucky to get one) which was frustrating to many - GW appologised for massively underestimated demand in latest Warhammer Community post
Let's not overdo it - it was 12-13 minutes in the UK, apparently about 30min in North America. Which is ridiculously fast enough as it is! And it would have been even faster if everybody could have accessed the website and it hadn't been slowed down due to the amount of visitors...
I was logged in and cashed out as soon as it appeared - about 9.59 on my computer - as soon as processed - about a minute I went back to have a browse on the site and the GW site had crashed - by the time it came bakc it was sold out.
zend wrote: Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
lol imagine being a marine player and acting this aggrieved in 2019
I know right - when a sub faction of a sub faction has more character models than most complete Factions, has had their own super special upgrade kits and flow of models from FW and still feels hard done by - sheesh entitled much
ok, I'm going to say it in large bold letters for you, and you're still going to refuse to accept it.
Blood Angels are their own codex, demanding GW ignore them because Marines got something is unreasonable
Iyanden are (as in "used to be") their own codex, demanding GW ignore them because Eldar got something is unreasonable...
[/spoiler]
Codex Supplment /= codex
But why is Iyanden a supplement and Blood Angels aren't? I get your point and you are right, but for a xenos player the distinction is arbitrary. There are Eldar, which use Craftworlds, or Orks split in Klans, different Regiments of the IA the same way like there are Space Marines and their chapters. Why is one considered a "full" codex and the other isn't?
There are only two reasons: For sales reasons or "it always used to be like that". Both reasons are not a satisfactory explanation for a customer that is not collecting Space Marines
can we please not derail this thread with this fething argument. at the end of the day for this point it really doesn't fething matter. GW has said Blood angels are a unique faction, so treated as a unique faction they will be. arbitrary or not, this is how GW does it, and they've had BAs etc seperate for over 20 years at this point, so it's hardly like this is some new policy change.
Yet again I'm not intreasted in arguing coulda's, shoulda's etc. I'm intreasted in the facts. and the [b]facts are that BAs are their own thing, so speakath GW.
Yes, hence me saying your right. Still I think it's funny that people (including GW) don't understand that some of us are feeling like we're playing the second fiddle...
But since I can't contribute to any rumours about the new PA I won't derail the discussion any longer.
People perceive themselves playing second fiddle because they view it through the lens of in-game lore, not sales.
If GW had a customer base of 1000 players and a product range of 10 Codexes, the ideal would be to have each Codex cover roughly 100 players. Thus if 600 of those players mainly play/buy the power armour miniatures, GW should aim for roughly 6 flavours of armies using the power-armour miniatures and 4 without. Whatever "in-game lore" or fluff-considerations can justify that spread of books in the respective background sections doesn't really matter.
can we please not derail this thread with this fething argument. at the end of the day for this point it really doesn't fething matter. GW has said Blood angels are a unique faction, so treated as a unique faction they will be. arbitrary or not, this is how GW does it, and they've had BAs etc seperate for over 20 years at this point, so it's hardly like this is some new policy change.
Yet again I'm not intreasted in arguing coulda's, shoulda's etc. I'm intreasted in the facts. and the facts are that BAs are their own thing, so speakath GW.
Yes, please don't derail the thread further. Worth noting that you were the one to bring this up and start the derailing with the following comment (that is also a massive strawman, as well as off topic);
BrianDavion wrote: ok, I'm going to say it in large bold letters for you, and you're still going to refuse to accept it.
[b]Blood Angels are their own codex, demanding GW ignore them because Marines got something is unreasonable
Even if I'm clearly not allowed to want things as a BA player, I hope GW treads us better that just an afterthought and try to sell us a new model. You know what? Personally I don't want new plastic at all. You are right, as we got more than enough from all the Primaris releases. All I want from GW is some pages filled with cool rules, that someone gave at least a second thought. Right now we pay the same or more as SM players for the same models with inferior rules, our stratagems are straight worse and we are likely to get an assault oriented doctrine that everyone knows is a disadvantage to begin with. Our chapter tactic won't benefit vehicles in any meaningful way, even if we loose the CT restrictions. Please GW, make it a hit and not a miss.
zend wrote: Oh nooo, a Blood Angels character is getting updated for the first time in like 20 years! It’s so unfair to the Xenos players!
Did you guys really want a new Red Terror or Lictor model that badly or something? They’re the only Nid characters that haven’t been updated, and Red Terror has absolutely no history with the Blood Angels.
You don't even know the half of it. I want a resculpt for Swarmie putting him in the LoW tier, Resculpted and plastic Lictors, Biovores, Pyrovores, Shrikes, Red Terror, Deathleaper, and maybe redone troops, because feth those split-headed builds. I want Lictors in broods of 3, and for Deathleaper to be actively scary, for My vanguard units to actually work well and not be practically useless. Give us Shrikes back with an upgrade kit for Warriors, give us an expansive list of biomorphs like we had in 5th, MORE psychic/biomancy powers, do wacky and weird biological weapons (feth space marine dreads for having a million different weapon loadouts). There's so much that can be done with an ever evolving and bio-engineered race that every time there is a Tyranid release, it actively makes me less likely to play the game because it's always something boring or a half-baked design.
Looking at you Toxicrene, you're just a venomthrope smushed onto a Maleceptor body, who is already boring for being a 'brain bug'.
My disappointment is boundless and my vitriol is acidic in my stomach.
But honestly I just want more cool alien designs/beasts for my army, and it's frustrating that they don't want to do that with a faction that could really easily do that.
Yep totally with you- although I do love the toxicrene model - it was nice to see them start to bring back the weirdness with him and the haruspex.
But really I think PA is just a holding card - I think releases have been restricted due to their production problems. When the new factory comes up I'm guessing we'll see more model releases. Hopefully they start evolving the NIds as well.
rhavien wrote: Right now we pay the same or more as SM players for the same models with inferior rules, our stratagems are straight worse
Woah, seems like you'd be in a way better posiiton of Blood Angels were implemented as a supplement rather than as a separate codex!
I'm not against it. I would very much welcome it. How du you plan to change that? I started to paint my toys red back in 2nd edition. Man, if I would have known how many years of envy that would cause... But I'm a son of Sanguinius and the rage and suffering is in our blood.
rhavien wrote: Right now we pay the same or more as SM players for the same models with inferior rules, our stratagems are straight worse
Woah, seems like you'd be in a way better posiiton of Blood Angels were implemented as a supplement rather than as a separate codex!
I'm not against it. I would very much welcome it. How du you plan to change that? I started to paint my toys red back in 2nd edition. Man, if I would have known how many years of envy that would cause... But I'm a son of Sanguinius and the rage and suffering is in our blood.
Chaos bois hear you as well, at the end of the day having PA3 hopefully fix up blood angels is a good move as it saves a previous codex release slot for someone else who needs more of a re-write. My concern is that grey knights and the other stragglers will only get a PA mention rather than a new codex.
In honesty though if you make blood angels a supplement, you have a bigger problem than the current marine meta, because they have a codex worth of unique stuff as well as the stuff they inherit from the codex and the inherent power boost from doctrines etc.
I wouldn't begrudge Blood Angels getting cool stuff, god knows the separation between the Space Marines is dumb and leaves plenty of players playing the exaxt same units but with worse rules, if I thought there was any chance that Nids would get anything like that kind of support in the same book.
But based on current form, I don't. Also, given that PA3 comes out in December that will make 5 straight months of Space Marines being given tons of new rules to play with. Yawn already.
rhavien wrote: Even if I'm clearly not allowed to want things as a BA player, I hope GW treads us better that just an afterthought and try to sell us a new model. You know what? Personally I don't want new plastic at all. You are right, as we got more than enough from all the Primaris releases. All I want from GW is some pages filled with cool rules, that someone gave at least a second thought. Right now we pay the same or more as SM players for the same models with inferior rules, our stratagems are straight worse and we are likely to get an assault oriented doctrine that everyone knows is a disadvantage to begin with. Our chapter tactic won't benefit vehicles in any meaningful way, even if we loose the CT restrictions. Please GW, make it a hit and not a miss.
rhavien wrote: Also you get the new hot strats and goodies like combat doctrines.
That's why I'm planning to make a thread that says, if you want Dark and Blood Angels to be different codices, they don't get Combat Doctrines as they believe they're not codex compliant enough. Let's see anyone defend that.
You already have one "Chapters should be consolidated into the marine codex" thread, Slayer-Fan123! And you know it, given how much you posted into it.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: You already have one "Chapters should be consolidated into the marine codex" thread, Slayer-Fan123! And you know it, given how much you posted into it.
Yeah that thread is too cluttered to really make that point though.
rhavien wrote: Also you get the new hot strats and goodies like combat doctrines.
That's why I'm planning to make a thread that says, if you want Dark and Blood Angels to be different codices, they don't get Combat Doctrines as they believe they're not codex compliant enough. Let's see anyone defend that.
Dont give them combat doctrines. Give them Visions of the Angel or something where they retain the +1 to hit or wound on the charge (I forget which) and maybe make the +1 attack on the first turn of combat a +d3.
There is a lot you can do to push a play style forwards without just giving combat doctrines.
Edit: my point is that BA players want a buff to bring their threat level up to that of codex marines, that doesnt mean giving them codex marines rules.
rhavien wrote: Also you get the new hot strats and goodies like combat doctrines.
That's why I'm planning to make a thread that says, if you want Dark and Blood Angels to be different codices, they don't get Combat Doctrines as they believe they're not codex compliant enough. Let's see anyone defend that.
I don't get your intention behind it other than being opportunistic to be honest. Do you want to say because we have our own codex, we shouldn't get rules equal to normal SM?
rhavien wrote: Also you get the new hot strats and goodies like combat doctrines.
That's why I'm planning to make a thread that says, if you want Dark and Blood Angels to be different codices, they don't get Combat Doctrines as they believe they're not codex compliant enough. Let's see anyone defend that.
Dont give them combat doctrines. Give them Visions of the Angel or something where they retain the +1 to hit or wound on the charge (I forget which) and maybe make the +1 attack on the first turn of combat a +d3.
There is a lot you can do to push a play style forwards without just giving combat doctrines.
Edit: my point is that BA players want a buff to bring their threat level up to that of codex marines, that doesnt mean giving them codex marines rules.
But they're a codex chapter. They should have codex marine rules.
There was a nice cycle going where the snowflake chapters would get nice things, which would be promptly stolen by the codex marines. That seemed to stop when they just ate the Black Templars, now everything out of sync again.
Partly GW justs needs to stop filling release gaps with spammed books (that they clearly don't have time to review, given the takebacks in the supplement FAQs). Let things simmer for a while, rather than rush out the next product.
Spending a year rushing past the index versions was a big mistake, they should sat on those for the first 2 years of 8th, and given the system a good shakedown, then released codexes in order of who needed the most patching. We shouldn't be on version 2 plus paid DLC already.
Yeah the vast majority of the Blood Angels chapter is codex compliant, and the only units that shouldnt be able to use combat doctrines would be Death Company units. Because they cray cray.
But Slayer-Fan knew this and is going to say “See? They should be merged with the normal codex!!”. Even though no one wants to carry and flip through a 500+ page space marine textbook just to make it easier for him to figure out which chapter is statistically the best on the table, and then bandwagon it.
Hopefully we will get some more info on the PA3 in due course.
It would be nice if it was not just Blood Angel Cooex Appendix 1 and Codex Space Marines Appendix 2 but sadly that seem unlikely.
If only there was time amongst the endless, relentless waves of Marine releases to give a single Sept, Regiment, Dynasty, Order, Craftworld, Hive Fleet, Kabal, Coven, or Cult a supplement but I guess not......
Mr Morden wrote: Hopefully we will get some more info on the PA3 in due course.
It would be nice if it was not just Blood Angel Cooex Appendix 1 and Codex Space Marines Appendix 2 but sadly that seem unlikely.
If only there was time amongst the endless, relentless waves of Marine releases to give a single Sept, Regiment, Dynasty, Order, Craftworld, Hive Fleet, Kabal, Coven, or Cult a supplement but I guess not......
I'm still waiting for the Psychic Awakening to have anything for Psykers. I mean, I guess Chaos had their sorcerer model delayed to this book and Word bearers get a Strat to autocast stuff, but... honestly. Beyond the SM getting to blow CP on extra powers theres been so very little focus on what this 'campaign' is supposed to be about.
Even the fiction is wackily unconcerned- the most recent story is White Scars vs Night Lords and the Librarian pulled a 'I'll be in my bunk,' because the NL started torturing astropaths. Woo. Awakenings.
Mr Morden wrote: Hopefully we will get some more info on the PA3 in due course.
It would be nice if it was not just Blood Angel Cooex Appendix 1 and Codex Space Marines Appendix 2 but sadly that seem unlikely.
If only there was time amongst the endless, relentless waves of Marine releases to give a single Sept, Regiment, Dynasty, Order, Craftworld, Hive Fleet, Kabal, Coven, or Cult a supplement but I guess not......
You want to pay them for more books than you do now? Honestly I think people should be more careful of what they wish for, do you want the supplement for more depth and fluff or because you think it'll make them OP?
Mr Morden wrote: Hopefully we will get some more info on the PA3 in due course.
It would be nice if it was not just Blood Angel Cooex Appendix 1 and Codex Space Marines Appendix 2 but sadly that seem unlikely.
If only there was time amongst the endless, relentless waves of Marine releases to give a single Sept, Regiment, Dynasty, Order, Craftworld, Hive Fleet, Kabal, Coven, or Cult a supplement but I guess not......
You want to pay them for more books than you do now? Honestly I think people should be more careful of what they wish for, do you want the supplement for more depth and fluff or because you think it'll make them OP?
People want supplements for many reasons, for example I'd like a kult of speed supplement so I have a depth of strategic choices for my Evil Sunz, so I can play my buggies and bikes without auto losing and so my sub faction gets more flavourful choices. Y'know, all the things Marines get. I'd happily pay GW for this book. I'd much rather pay them for this book than for a PA book where my faction is the whipping post for Spehz Muhreenz again. Particularly when my faction will no doubt get a quarter of the rules marines enjoy.
The last PA book was such a mess - I really hope GW don't feth up Blood of Balls but if they're going to treat CSM so poorly compared to Marines what hope do 'NPC xenos faction #5' have? We'll see. Maybe GW have actually listened to their customer base who are sick of unrelenting marine releases, rules and focus. Doubt it, but you never know.
Mr Morden wrote: Hopefully we will get some more info on the PA3 in due course.
It would be nice if it was not just Blood Angel Cooex Appendix 1 and Codex Space Marines Appendix 2 but sadly that seem unlikely.
If only there was time amongst the endless, relentless waves of Marine releases to give a single Sept, Regiment, Dynasty, Order, Craftworld, Hive Fleet, Kabal, Coven, or Cult a supplement but I guess not......
You want to pay them for more books than you do now? Honestly I think people should be more careful of what they wish for, do you want the supplement for more depth and fluff or because you think it'll make them OP?
People want supplements for many reasons, for example I'd like a kult of speed supplement so I have a depth of strategic choices for my Evil Sunz, so I can play my buggies and bikes without auto losing and so my sub faction gets more flavourful choices. Y'know, all the things Marines get. I'd happily pay GW for this book. I'd much rather pay them for this book than for a PA book where my faction is the whipping post for Spehz Muhreenz again. Particularly when my faction will no doubt get a quarter of the rules marines enjoy.
The last PA book was such a mess - I really hope GW don't feth up Blood of Balls but if they're going to treat CSM so poorly compared to Marines what hope do 'NPC xenos faction #5' have? We'll see. Maybe GW have actually listened to their customer base who are sick of unrelenting marine releases, rules and focus. Doubt it, but you never know.
At this point they can shove their "supplements " right where they belong, to clean up after lengthy toilet visits.
Mr Morden wrote: Hopefully we will get some more info on the PA3 in due course.
It would be nice if it was not just Blood Angel Cooex Appendix 1 and Codex Space Marines Appendix 2 but sadly that seem unlikely.
If only there was time amongst the endless, relentless waves of Marine releases to give a single Sept, Regiment, Dynasty, Order, Craftworld, Hive Fleet, Kabal, Coven, or Cult a supplement but I guess not......
You want to pay them for more books than you do now? Honestly I think people should be more careful of what they wish for, do you want the supplement for more depth and fluff or because you think it'll make them OP?
People want supplements for many reasons, for example I'd like a kult of speed supplement so I have a depth of strategic choices for my Evil Sunz, so I can play my buggies and bikes without auto losing and so my sub faction gets more flavourful choices. Y'know, all the things Marines get. I'd happily pay GW for this book. I'd much rather pay them for this book than for a PA book where my faction is the whipping post for Spehz Muhreenz again. Particularly when my faction will no doubt get a quarter of the rules marines enjoy.
The last PA book was such a mess - I really hope GW don't feth up Blood of Balls but if they're going to treat CSM so poorly compared to Marines what hope do 'NPC xenos faction #5' have? We'll see. Maybe GW have actually listened to their customer base who are sick of unrelenting marine releases, rules and focus. Doubt it, but you never know.
Tbh I think supplements were a mistake given how they were done, I'd rather not them do more for everyone and rather knock marine power levels down (by a reasonable amount, dont want them gutting again) rather than boost everyone's up.
It's nice to have extra fluffy rules and equipment or whatever, but the format they're in basically made them mandatory additions, instead of being the optional "if you really love this play style/chapter" I imagine they were intended to be.
Mr Morden wrote: Hopefully we will get some more info on the PA3 in due course.
It would be nice if it was not just Blood Angel Cooex Appendix 1 and Codex Space Marines Appendix 2 but sadly that seem unlikely.
If only there was time amongst the endless, relentless waves of Marine releases to give a single Sept, Regiment, Dynasty, Order, Craftworld, Hive Fleet, Kabal, Coven, or Cult a supplement but I guess not......
You want to pay them for more books than you do now? Honestly I think people should be more careful of what they wish for, do you want the supplement for more depth and fluff or because you think it'll make them OP?
I picked up several supplements to read as I am interested in the background - for instance I am not going to start an Iron Hands or White Scars army (I haev a few models for each and 4 other Chapter armies) at the moment, similar to the Iyanden Supplement I bought way back when.
A special character/Supplement for each of the factions/sub factions - Marines of course being a sub-faction would I think be welcomed by many
Except of course the hard core Marines First, Llast and only brigade.
I'm surprised people keep saying chaos got screwed in the book. Yeah they didn't get new legion traits but every legion in there got something really nifty out of the book, some of which will be shaking up the meta a bit, like Alpha Legion, and night Lords, the latter of which used to be considered trash. Now they've got abilities that are pretty terrifying if used correctly.
Yeah maybe chaos didn't get as much as marines have over the past few months but to act like GW didn't give the original legions anything to work with is kind of ridiculous. They even gave stuff to make word bearers have some neat tricks. WORD BEARERS, canonically one of the most useless of the original legions. I don't see how that makes the book useless. The legions came out better than the Black Templar did, since there's no way they'll get to use Imperial Fist stuff on top of their own abilities most likely. Yeah the black Templar got more stuff but I don't see them taking down events anytime soon.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I'm surprised people keep saying chaos got screwed in the book. Yeah they didn't get new legion traits but every legion in there got something really nifty out of the book, some of which will be shaking up the meta a bit, like Alpha Legion, and night Lords, the latter of which used to be considered trash. Now they've got abilities that are pretty terrifying if used correctly.
Yeah maybe chaos didn't get as much as marines have over the past few months but to act like GW didn't give the original legions anything to work with is kind of ridiculous. They even gave stuff to make word bearers have some neat tricks. WORD BEARERS, canonically one of the most useless of the original legions. I don't see how that makes the book useless. The legions came out better than the Black Templar did, since there's no way they'll get to use Imperial Fist stuff on top of their own abilities most likely. Yeah the black Templar got more stuff but I don't see them taking down events anytime soon.
Mr Morden wrote: Hopefully we will get some more info on the PA3 in due course.
It would be nice if it was not just Blood Angel Cooex Appendix 1 and Codex Space Marines Appendix 2 but sadly that seem unlikely.
If only there was time amongst the endless, relentless waves of Marine releases to give a single Sept, Regiment, Dynasty, Order, Craftworld, Hive Fleet, Kabal, Coven, or Cult a supplement but I guess not......
You want to pay them for more books than you do now? Honestly I think people should be more careful of what they wish for, do you want the supplement for more depth and fluff or because you think it'll make them OP?
I picked up several supplements to read as I am interested in the background - for instance I am not going to start an Iron Hands or White Scars army (I haev a few models for each and 4 other Chapter armies) at the moment, similar to the Iyanden Supplement I bought way back when.
A special character/Supplement for each of the factions/sub factions - Marines of course being a sub-faction would I think be welcomed by many
Except of course the hard core Marines First, Llast and only brigade.
I've never seen anyone say that marines should be the only people with supplements, just arguing that they're potentially a mistake/unnecessary for the most part. But to be honest I'd rather they just fixed the core codex first and foremost, I don't care about my red corsairs getting a supplement (even though they got glossed over for PA2), I'd rather they just made csm 2.0 worthy of the title instead. Likewise I've recently started a small suit heavy tau army, I don't care for supplements since I've gone with N'Dras who don't even have rules anyway and I don't mind if they never do, just fix the core books so they have more viable builds.
As much as I've not always agreed with An Actual Englishmans stance about the importance of a speed freaks book, I do feel the ork codex needs a tweak to get it to the right level.
I've never seen anyone say that marines should be the only people with supplements, just arguing that they're potentially a mistake/unnecessary for the most part. But to be honest I'd rather they just fixed the core codex first and foremost, I don't care about my red corsairs getting a supplement (even though they got glossed over for PA2), I'd rather they just made csm 2.0 worthy of the title instead. Likewise I've recently started a small suit heavy tau army, I don't care for supplements since I've gone with N'Dras who don't even have rules anyway and I don't mind if they never do, just fix the core books so they have more viable builds.
As much as I've not always agreed with An Actual Englishmans stance about the importance of a speed freaks book, I do feel the ork codex needs a tweak to get it to the right level.
Which is the problem though. The Tau book is fine. The Ork book is fine. The Chaos 2.0 Codex is fine. Most books outside perhaps Grey Knights and Ynnari are basically fine.
It's the Marines that probably need to be reset to the 2017 Codex by turning the recent books narrative only or something, until they figure out a way to make a basic Space Marine codex that doesn't overpower the other books and get's a roughly 50% win rate (given roughly equal player skill) against the basic (not super-optimised) Harlequins, Tyranids, Orks, GSC, whatever army (ideally using the "example armies" presented in the Codexes as blueprint).
Sunny Side Up wrote: Which is the problem though. The Tau book is fine. The Ork book is fine. The Chaos 2.0 Codex is fine.
These books really aren't fine, as their internal balance is all over the place. They're 'fine' for tournament players for whom having one viable build in a codex is enough.
I'm not a fan of the enormous power creep Marines have experienced, but if there's one thing the new book has gotten right, it's making a variety of army builds viable. Tau have to take as many shield drones as they can, and Crisis Suits, transports, and auxiliaries are all wastes of points. Orks need big mobs of Boyz and Mek Gunz, and I can't remember the last time I saw Speed Freeks, Kans, or Dreads. Chaos does better the fewer Chaos Marines it has in a list.
Looking only at tournament win rates is not healthy for the game.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Which is the problem though. The Tau book is fine. The Ork book is fine. The Chaos 2.0 Codex is fine.
These books really aren't fine, as their internal balance is all over the place. They're 'fine' for tournament players for whom having one viable build in a codex is enough.
I'm not a fan of the enormous power creep Marines have experienced, but if there's one thing the new book has gotten right, it's making a variety of army builds viable. Tau have to take as many shield drones as they can, and Crisis Suits, transports, and auxiliaries are all wastes of points. Orks need big mobs of Boyz and Mek Gunz, and I can't remember the last time I saw Speed Freeks, Kans, or Dreads. Chaos does better the fewer Chaos Marines it has in a list.
Looking only at tournament win rates is not healthy for the game.
Grots, actually. Boyz are considered to be a waste of points when taken in excess, and that 30 boys + a bunch of grots is the optimal configuration.
The Ork codex has problems. You don't have that many optimal builds, and the traits don't even make sense.
What's the win rate like for Marines that aren't Iron Hands or Imperial Fists at the moment (on phone so more than a little annoying to find)? Are all the Chapters overperforming or just the two strongest? It'd be a mistake to slap the entire Codex with nerfs if it's just those two that overperform.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Which is the problem though. The Tau book is fine. The Ork book is fine. The Chaos 2.0 Codex is fine.
These books really aren't fine, as their internal balance is all over the place. They're 'fine' for tournament players for whom having one viable build in a codex is enough.
I'm not a fan of the enormous power creep Marines have experienced, but if there's one thing the new book has gotten right, it's making a variety of army builds viable. Tau have to take as many shield drones as they can, and Crisis Suits, transports, and auxiliaries are all wastes of points. Orks need big mobs of Boyz and Mek Gunz, and I can't remember the last time I saw Speed Freeks, Kans, or Dreads. Chaos does better the fewer Chaos Marines it has in a list.
Looking only at tournament win rates is not healthy for the game.
This hits it pretty well. The Tau codex suffers from the exact same problems the first marine codex suffered from. Everything was costed around access to ablative wounds and savior protocols just like marines were costed as if they had access to Gulliman. I don't play orks, but I imagine they've got a number of mechanics warping their internal balance in a similar way. Da Jump, Grot Shields, and the cheapest variant of KFF are my guess.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What's the win rate like for Marines that aren't Iron Hands or Imperial Fists at the moment (on phone so more than a little annoying to find)? Are all the Chapters overperforming or just the two strongest? It'd be a mistake to slap the entire Codex with nerfs if it's just those two that overperform.
Get out with your logic and not strawmanning whole faction, all subfactions included, into a single build, filled with FW pay to win at that. Because every SM player has 5 recast leviathans and spams IH wombo combos to buff them, even if he/she plays White Scars or Black Templars fluffy footslogging oldmarine company, am I rite?
Crazyterran wrote: I remember 5 E when BA were the hot stuff and clobbered SM.
I'll take 'things that never happened' for 500. BA had 4-5 viable builds, but they were different builds than Codex: SM. SM had bike company, better terminators, chapter tactics, better shooting, more and better vehicles, techmarines/artillery, the works. It's almost as if author of both books was the most competent rule writer GW had ever had and could balance both books giving them very different strong points. Go figure
Jidmah wrote: Just before SW became the hot stuff and clobbered BA. And then GK became the hot stuff and clobbered SW. GW balance at its best
Except SW came out long before BA, and GK were balanced with all other 5th edition armies (again, having different strong points, and only a child who couldn't identify their weaknesses and play accordingly could say they were in any way OP). I like how even something that happened well within this decade will have pure nonsense tall tales told about it, never mind how easy these claims are to verify and how hard it should be to get something as basic as dates so wrong
I'll agree, though, that really was GW balance at its best. Sadly...
Voss wrote: There was a nice cycle going where the snowflake chapters would get nice things, which would be promptly stolen by the codex marines.
Like what? It's the snowflakers who whined the Codex SM dared to have handful of exclusive units of their own until these units were taken away, only for none of the whiners then using them, as say Tartaros TDA or SM flyers were inferior to snowflake variants making the whine something out of pure spite, not real need...
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What's the win rate like for Marines that aren't Iron Hands or Imperial Fists at the moment (on phone so more than a little annoying to find)? Are all the Chapters overperforming or just the two strongest? It'd be a mistake to slap the entire Codex with nerfs if it's just those two that overperform.
The entire faction is over-performing with the exception of (mono-)Blood Ravens (based on an incredibly small sample of a single list in the last couple of weeks).
Which is the problem. People agonise over Iron Hands this or Imperial Fists that, but that's not the core of the problem. The basic Marine dex is what probably needs a flat 15%-20% point increase on basically everything, a heavy scaling back of super-efficient re-rolls like Chapter Master (just compare it to the equally 2CP priced Great Harlequin, for example), free AP and attack bonuses, etc.., etc..
Sunny Side Up wrote: It's the Marines that probably need to be reset to the 2017 Codex by turning the recent books narrative only or something, until they figure out a way to make a basic Space Marine codex that doesn't overpower the other books and get's a roughly 50% win rate (given roughly equal player skill) against the basic (not super-optimised) Harlequins, Tyranids, Orks, GSC, whatever army (ideally using the "example armies" presented in the Codexes as blueprint).
I think it might be harder than you would think to balance marines.
Here's my reasoning:
Loyalist marines are by far the most popular army. Everyone who isn't sure what they are facing is going to add stuff to their list to combat marines if they want to win. Worse, the second most important list to bring tools against (Imperial Knights) is vulnerable to most of the same stuff.
Almost every unit in the marine codex is vulnerable to similar things; their infantry need anti-tank weapons to kill and so do their tanks. So just spamming anti-tank is a pretty good strategy. Since a lot of other armies have key units which are also vulnerable to anti-tank weapons (basically all necrons, all chaos except daemons and cultists, tau battlesuits, everyone's vehicles) and eliminating those units (often the only mobile elements of their list) will allow victory in many games (by simply making it hard to get units onto objectives), anti-tank weapons are generally good against non-marine/knight lists too.
So most competitive lists are going to be marine killers. That means marines will always underperform in random games compared to how they 'should' in a balanced environment where either every army is tailored to their opponent or there is a more even distribution of lists you need to prepare for.
Everyone has a lot of experience playing against marines and even moderately skilled players will know how to deal with them.
I also suspect that a lot of marine players might be somewhat less skilled than average, since they are the stereotypical 'first army'. Having tried playing Deathwatch recently, never playing marines before, I very much felt that I was playing on 'easy mode'. I guess their playstyle might just suit me better than other armies, but if I'm right then it's yet another reason why marine lists would underperform in practice compared to how they 'should'.
So GW keeps cranking up the power-level for marines and giving them more tools. But that makes the problem worse, since the more powerful marines get, the more people play marines, more people optimize against marines and any army very different to marines gets relatively better results simply by surprising people with a new set of challenges. So there is a completely distorted 'balance' where marines can never actually have a reasonable power level, because if they do then they will get absolutely smashed in tournaments and pick-up games. But other armies are only viable so long as they have the luxury of fighting against opponents who are hyper-specialized to deal with marines. As soon as an ork list (for example) meets a decent anti-ork list, they are probably doomed.
Add the general culture of marine-favoritism at GW (honestly, do you expect people to not have good feelings about their primary source of profit?) and people's distorted perception that their favorite army is hard-done by (which means most customers are going to think marines have it tough simply because most customers collect marines) and you have a situation where marine rules are under massive pressure to keep getting better and better, but their actual performance (especially in tournaments and pick-up games, which are the most visible games to GW staff) is going to look pretty poor.
Sunny Side Up wrote: It's the Marines that probably need to be reset to the 2017 Codex by turning the recent books narrative only or something, until they figure out a way to make a basic Space Marine codex that doesn't overpower the other books and get's a roughly 50% win rate (given roughly equal player skill) against the basic (not super-optimised) Harlequins, Tyranids, Orks, GSC, whatever army (ideally using the "example armies" presented in the Codexes as blueprint).
I think it might be harder than you would think to balance marines.
Here's my reasoning:
Loyalist marines are by far the most popular army. Everyone who isn't sure what they are facing is going to add stuff to their list to combat marines if they want to win. Worse, the second most important list to bring tools against (Imperial Knights) is vulnerable to most of the same stuff.
Almost every unit in the marine codex is vulnerable to similar things; their infantry need anti-tank weapons to kill and so do their tanks. So just spamming anti-tank is a pretty good strategy. Since a lot of other armies have key units which are also vulnerable to anti-tank weapons (basically all necrons, all chaos except daemons and cultists, tau battlesuits, everyone's vehicles) and eliminating those units (often the only mobile elements of their list) will allow victory in many games (by simply making it hard to get units onto objectives), anti-tank weapons are generally good against non-marine/knight lists too.
So most competitive lists are going to be marine killers. That means marines will always underperform in random games compared to how they 'should' in a balanced environment where either every army is tailored to their opponent or there is a more even distribution of lists you need to prepare for.
Everyone has a lot of experience playing against marines and even moderately skilled players will know how to deal with them.
I also suspect that a lot of marine players might be somewhat less skilled than average, since they are the stereotypical 'first army'. Having tried playing Deathwatch recently, never playing marines before, I very much felt that I was playing on 'easy mode'. I guess their playstyle might just suit me better than other armies, but if I'm right then it's yet another reason why marine lists would underperform in practice compared to how they 'should'.
So GW keeps cranking up the power-level for marines and giving them more tools. But that makes the problem worse, since the more powerful marines get, the more people play marines, more people optimize against marines and any army very different to marines gets relatively better results simply by surprising people with a new set of challenges. So there is a completely distorted 'balance' where marines can never actually have a reasonable power level, because if they do then they will get absolutely smashed in tournaments and pick-up games. But other armies are only viable so long as they have the luxury of fighting against opponents who are hyper-specialized to deal with marines. As soon as an ork list (for example) meets a decent anti-ork list, they are probably doomed.
Add the general culture of marine-favoritism at GW (honestly, do you expect people to not have good feelings about their primary source of profit?) and people's distorted perception that their favorite army is hard-done by (which means most customers are going to think marines have it tough simply because most customers collect marines) and you have a situation where marine rules are under massive pressure to keep getting better and better, but their actual performance (especially in tournaments and pick-up games, which are the most visible games to GW staff) is going to look pretty poor.
Which is fine. People already bring the "marine-killer" weapons and, as was pointed out, Marines internal diversity in armies across the supplements is pretty well done.
Which is why Marines IMO are one of the few cases where old-fashioned point increases would work (as opposed to, say, the Castellan/CP issue, where the flaw was in the allies system, or the Ynnari, which created game-mechanic discrepancies between Ynnari and non-Ynnari version of the same unit that were hard/impossible to point).
As said, just give Marines a flat point increase across all units, so that they simply bring a couple 100 point-equivalents less of their super-efficient units in a given army. It preserves the internal balance of the various Marine supplements, brings their win-rates and first-loss rates and all that down to be more in line with other armies and makes Marines more elite on top, which is perfectly on brand too.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What's the win rate like for Marines that aren't Iron Hands or Imperial Fists at the moment (on phone so more than a little annoying to find)? Are all the Chapters overperforming or just the two strongest? It'd be a mistake to slap the entire Codex with nerfs if it's just those two that overperform.
The entire faction is over-performing with the exception of (mono-)Blood Ravens (based on an incredibly small sample of a single list in the last couple of weeks).
Which is the problem. People agonise over Iron Hands this or Imperial Fists that, but that's not the core of the problem. The basic Marine dex is what probably needs a flat 15%-20% point increase on basically everything, a heavy scaling back of super-efficient re-rolls like Chapter Master (just compare it to the equally 2CP priced Great Harlequin, for example), free AP and attack bonuses, etc.., etc..
Am back home now, from what I can see at 40kstats over the last month Iron Hands are grossly ahead at 65%, followed by Raven Guard, White Scars, and Imperial Fists around 55% (Crimson Fists at 60% but only two lists). Then it drops off to Ultramarines at 52.48% and the rest of the Chapters are sub-50% win rate. Of these only the Iron Hands (and the two Crimson Fists) stand out as grossly overpowered; Custom Craftworlds managed 58% win rate during the same period, Vostroyan (somehow) managed a 59.44% win rate (although, again, a small sample size), mixed Chaos Daemons managed 55.4%, and mixed CSM managed 60% (again, small sample size though). AdMech Graia managed 58% (sample size of 20 though) and Kabal of the Black Heart managed over 55.5% as well. Evil Sunz Orks at 54.89% win rate and Tau at almost 53% win rate. I'm not seeing this monstrous overpoweredness in these numbers, so I'm going to assume that there's a methodological difference between our sources. Coudl you post yours so we can compare?
Not really my cup of tea, but that's a damn good sculpt shown off with a breathtaking paintjob. Perfect blend of old-school elements and actually good proportions.
I am shocked that PA3 is already up for pre-order in 10 days when PA2 isn't out yet. Talk about a fast pace of releases! I love it. I hope this means PA4 in January, whatever factions it is.
And he will be getting that arm rather than the Pistol. Because with him leaning back and putting the gun out he looks like someone that no one told how to hold a gun before shooting for the first time.
Virules wrote: I am shocked that PA3 is already up for pre-order in 10 days when PA2 isn't out yet. Talk about a fast pace of releases! I love it. I hope this means PA4 in January, whatever factions it is.
Wonder what factions will be in PA4 and PA5??
4 is apparently Orks and Space Wolves (according to reliable rumours).
And he will be getting that arm rather than the Pistol. Because with him leaning back and putting the gun out he looks like someone that no one told how to hold a gun before shooting for the first time.
Virules wrote: I am shocked that PA3 is already up for pre-order in 10 days when PA2 isn't out yet. Talk about a fast pace of releases! I love it. I hope this means PA4 in January, whatever factions it is.
Wonder what factions will be in PA4 and PA5??
4 is apparently Orks and Space Wolves (according to reliable rumours).
That would be cool. Personally I can't wait for Death Guard. Most outdated codex of 8th edition at this point. I hope they get a book choke-full of new stratagems and relics.
Virules wrote: I am shocked that PA3 is already up for pre-order in 10 days when PA2 isn't out yet. Talk about a fast pace of releases! I love it. I hope this means PA4 in January, whatever factions it is.
Wonder what factions will be in PA4 and PA5??
4 is apparently Orks and Space Wolves (according to reliable rumours).
That would be cool. Personally I can't wait for Death Guard. Most outdated codex of 8th edition at this point. I hope they get a book choke-full of new stratagems and relics.
Virules wrote: I am shocked that PA3 is already up for pre-order in 10 days when PA2 isn't out yet. Talk about a fast pace of releases! I love it. I hope this means PA4 in January, whatever factions it is.
Wonder what factions will be in PA4 and PA5??
4 is apparently Orks and Space Wolves (according to reliable rumours).
That would be cool. Personally I can't wait for Death Guard. Most outdated codex of 8th edition at this point. I hope they get a book choke-full of new stratagems and relics.
Off all chaos factions DG need the least help.
As someone who plays all Chaos factions competitively, and who closely watches the weekly reports of what Chaos lists are doing well, I think it's obvious you are dead wrong. The vast majority of units don't see serious use despite heavy points reductions a year ago. They have far less stratagems than CSM, Daemons, or TS. They don't have specialist detachments like CSM. They don't have anything as auto-include as a TS supreme command. All you ever see from them are sometimes PBCs and sometimes the pricey Blightlords.
Not the thread to debate which color of skittles tastes the worst ATM guys...
I like mephiston but damn he looks massive. I also am torn on the hand to mouth pose. The art is telling my brain what he is supposed to be doing there, but if I am honest, it looks more like he smelled one of Dante's farts
Without the plasma pistol, you can't even tell he is a Primaris Marine. He just looks like plastic Mephiston. Drastically increases the model's overall appeal. I like Primaris, so he will definitely be going with my Blood Angels and use the Primaris rules, but I could see someone using him just as regular Mephiston without any issue.
Virules wrote: I am shocked that PA3 is already up for pre-order in 10 days when PA2 isn't out yet. Talk about a fast pace of releases! I love it. I hope this means PA4 in January, whatever factions it is.
Wonder what factions will be in PA4 and PA5??
4 is apparently Orks and Space Wolves (according to reliable rumours).
That would be cool. Personally I can't wait for Death Guard. Most outdated codex of 8th edition at this point. I hope they get a book choke-full of new stratagems and relics.
Off all chaos factions DG need the least help.
As someone who plays all Chaos factions competitively, and who closely watches the weekly reports of what Chaos lists are doing well, I think it's obvious you are dead wrong. The vast majority of units don't see serious use despite heavy points reductions a year ago. They have far less stratagems than CSM, Daemons, or TS. They don't have specialist detachments like CSM. They don't have anything as auto-include as a TS supreme command. All you ever see from them are sometimes PBCs and sometimes the pricey Blightlords.
Pfft, next you'll be wanting Non Imperial/Chaos factions to be more than NPC's.
Madness! This is 40K... where it is Imperial Marines Vs Chaos Marines.
So far 8th has just been Imperial or Chaos model releases. Tau - none, Tyranids - none, Eldar - a few, Dark Eldar - a few, Harlequins - one, Genestealer Cults - a few, Orks - a few.
Heck I think Primaris Marines have got as many releases as all of the Xenos races combined since 8th dropped.
Still, people keep buying it, so I can't entirely blame GW for making them.
Am back home now, from what I can see at 40kstats over the last month Iron Hands are grossly ahead at 65%, followed by Raven Guard, White Scars, and Imperial Fists around 55% (Crimson Fists at 60% but only two lists). Then it drops off to Ultramarines at 52.48% and the rest of the Chapters are sub-50% win rate. Of these only the Iron Hands (and the two Crimson Fists) stand out as grossly overpowered; Custom Craftworlds managed 58% win rate during the same period, Vostroyan (somehow) managed a 59.44% win rate (although, again, a small sample size), mixed Chaos Daemons managed 55.4%, and mixed CSM managed 60% (again, small sample size though). AdMech Graia managed 58% (sample size of 20 though) and Kabal of the Black Heart managed over 55.5% as well. Evil Sunz Orks at 54.89% win rate and Tau at almost 53% win rate. I'm not seeing this monstrous overpoweredness in these numbers, so I'm going to assume that there's a methodological difference between our sources. Coudl you post yours so we can compare?
Well, stuff like Vostroyan or Graia being well and above anything Ynnari ever managed is bad enough, doubly so if it's overshadowed by Marines. But I suppose that is food for another topic.
Ultramarines are at 63% if you filter out the Marine mirrors against Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, etc.... They underperform in the Marine vs. even-more-broken-Marine match, but still are OP on a level we haven't seen in 8th (or even 7th as far as we have rough approximations of data) against (virtually) all non-Marine books.
Which is kinda the irony of the current meta. The "only" 5th or 6th most-broken army currently is vastly more broken than anything we've seen come before, but goes by largely unnoticed because there's more stuff even more out of whack.
Am back home now, from what I can see at 40kstats over the last month Iron Hands are grossly ahead at 65%, followed by Raven Guard, White Scars, and Imperial Fists around 55% (Crimson Fists at 60% but only two lists). Then it drops off to Ultramarines at 52.48% and the rest of the Chapters are sub-50% win rate. Of these only the Iron Hands (and the two Crimson Fists) stand out as grossly overpowered; Custom Craftworlds managed 58% win rate during the same period, Vostroyan (somehow) managed a 59.44% win rate (although, again, a small sample size), mixed Chaos Daemons managed 55.4%, and mixed CSM managed 60% (again, small sample size though). AdMech Graia managed 58% (sample size of 20 though) and Kabal of the Black Heart managed over 55.5% as well. Evil Sunz Orks at 54.89% win rate and Tau at almost 53% win rate. I'm not seeing this monstrous overpoweredness in these numbers, so I'm going to assume that there's a methodological difference between our sources. Coudl you post yours so we can compare?
Well, stuff like Vostroyan or Graia being well and above anything Ynnari ever managed is bad enough, doubly so if it's overshadowed by Marines. But I suppose that is food for another topic.
Ultramarines are at 63% if you filter out the Marine mirrors against Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, etc.... They underperform in the Marine vs. even-more-broken-Marine match, but still are OP on a level we haven't seen in 8th (or even 7th as far as we have rough approximations of data) against (virtually) all non-Marine books.
Which is kinda the irony of the current meta. The "only" 5th or 6th most-broken army currently is vastly more broken than anything we've seen come before, but goes by largely unnoticed because there's more stuff even more out of whack.
Graia and Vostroyans have very specific abilities that soup well with other traits in their codex. Graia is the only anti pysker admech has, so any competitive list that wants to place as admech will have them. Vostroyans are the only surefire way to get extra BS on a unit of your choice, and their Tank Commanders and shadowswords can easily hit on 2's with the right set up, which if you want to play mono guard is key.
It makes sense these traits would have abnormally high win rates, since competitive players are only splashing them in to cover specific weaknesses more powerful traits in their codex have (admech, Mars and Stygies, Guard, Cadian and Catachan) These factions are pretty trash overall, they just have one specific combo that makes them critical for ITC.
Personally I blame ITC for radically skewing how a list is made to work within it, but that's also off topic. Don't get me wrong, I like ITC, but I worry about it being used to balance a game where most players are not actually playing ITC missions or events. We have units being balanced off of ITC merit that many people are only using in book or narrative missions, which isn't good for balance.
Red Corsair wrote: Not the thread to debate which color of skittles tastes the worst ATM guys...
I like mephiston but damn he looks massive. I also am torn on the hand to mouth pose. The art is telling my brain what he is supposed to be doing there, but if I am honest, it looks more like he smelled one of Dante's farts
Red Corsair wrote: Not the thread to debate which color of skittles tastes the worst ATM guys...
I like mephiston but damn he looks massive. I also am torn on the hand to mouth pose. The art is telling my brain what he is supposed to be doing there, but if I am honest, it looks more like he smelled one of Dante's farts
I personally read it as "ONE MILLION DOLLARS!"
He's chewing his knuckles as he contemplates his next purchase from Hot Topic.
Red Corsair wrote: Not the thread to debate which color of skittles tastes the worst ATM guys...
I like mephiston but damn he looks massive. I also am torn on the hand to mouth pose. The art is telling my brain what he is supposed to be doing there, but if I am honest, it looks more like he smelled one of Dante's farts
Hmm. It looks to me like he's getting ready to take a shot of tequila...
Very cool, but I would have loved a bit of an update on the design, not a huge overhaul, but the collar and skull toppers, the sword cross guard and the 'armpit tubes' could have been reworked a bit to better reflect the artificier fluff. Those things to me are elements that are too dated and should have been upgraded design wise.
Since the non-Marines aren't really playable at the moment, might as well get as many variants of Marines out there as possible
Lots of non-marine armies are being played. GSC, Eldar Dark and Eldar Light, Orks, Imperial Guard. I'm seeing a lot of these on my local tables, but the only thing GW seems to be intent on releasing is more powered armor. Even the Sisters are in power armor. It's getting....OLD.
Pfft, next you'll be wanting Non Imperial/Chaos factions to be more than NPC's.
Madness! This is 40K... where it is Imperial Marines Vs Chaos Marines.
So far 8th has just been Imperial or Chaos model releases. Tau - none, Tyranids - none, Eldar - a few, Dark Eldar - a few, Harlequins - one, Genestealer Cults - a few, Orks - a few.
Heck I think Primaris Marines have got as many releases as all of the Xenos races combined since 8th dropped.
Still, people keep buying it, so I can't entirely blame GW for making them.
It would be nice to see models get updates that need it. All the space marine line was practically brand new. Meanwhile Guard, Sisters, Eldar, Orks. Nada.
Quite like the new Mephiston actually. I had my doubts, since I'm not a big proponent of Primaris in general, but it looks really good. I'm sure it's not helping GW's image of over focusing marines lately, but Blood Angels were due some sort of specific release. Call it bad timing.
Darsath wrote: Quite like the new Mephiston actually. I had my doubts, since I'm not a big proponent of Primaris in general, but it looks really good. I'm sure it's not helping GW's image of over focusing marines lately, but Blood Angels were due some sort of specific release. Call it bad timing.
Image? I didn't realise there was any debate that GW is over (only) focusing on marines? They have released nothing else.
Darsath wrote: Quite like the new Mephiston actually. I had my doubts, since I'm not a big proponent of Primaris in general, but it looks really good. I'm sure it's not helping GW's image of over focusing marines lately, but Blood Angels were due some sort of specific release. Call it bad timing.
Image? I didn't realise there was any debate that GW is over (only) focusing on marines? They have released nothing else.
Perception might have been a better term. If Games Workshop had a different release in place, it would help reduce the mass of people thinking that.
Darsath wrote: Quite like the new Mephiston actually. I had my doubts, since I'm not a big proponent of Primaris in general, but it looks really good. I'm sure it's not helping GW's image of over focusing marines lately, but Blood Angels were due some sort of specific release. Call it bad timing.
Image? I didn't realise there was any debate that GW is over (only) focusing on marines? They have released nothing else.
Perception might have been a better term. If Games Workshop had a different release in place, it would help reduce the mass of people thinking that.
I'm implying that its a fact man. People are thinking the truth.
Isn't this what people used to tell Sisters players? Aren't they now getting an entire line revamp? Clearly it's not a waste of energy if GW are actually listening.
Don't know if that's a fair comparison given their entire line was metal.
Since the non-Marines aren't really playable at the moment, might as well get as many variants of Marines out there as possible
Lots of non-marine armies are being played. GSC, Eldar Dark and Eldar Light, Orks, Imperial Guard. I'm seeing a lot of these on my local tables, but the only thing GW seems to be intent on releasing is more powered armor. Even the Sisters are in power armor. It's getting....OLD.
.
are you really complaining that SISTERS OF BATTLE are getting an update!? REALLY?!
I think that GW has spent FAR too much time releasing models for Space Marines. In the last ten years Space Marines (Including Chaos) have had massive swaths o army updates, where as other armies, especially Orks and Tyranids have received nothing. Tau received at least what, three or maybe 4 models in the last 6 years? Tyranids? I think 2013 for them?
I have heard (awaiting confirmation) that the only thing Tyranids are getting in this new PA book is 6 warlord traits. Whereas Blood Angles, yet another army of space marines are getting a brand new character model and access to tons of new Primaris equipment, alongside new stratagems and warlord traits.
We say it because constantly talking about it is the only way to get awareness out there in the community.
Since the non-Marines aren't really playable at the moment, might as well get as many variants of Marines out there as possible
Lots of non-marine armies are being played. GSC, Eldar Dark and Eldar Light, Orks, Imperial Guard. I'm seeing a lot of these on my local tables, but the only thing GW seems to be intent on releasing is more powered armor. Even the Sisters are in power armor. It's getting....OLD.
.
are you really complaining that SISTERS OF BATTLE are getting an update!? REALLY?!
Well, I wouldn't really call printing all the old models in plastic, with no new updates and a codex that looks DOA an update. I'm quite happy with the way they look, but it is clear to me this is a cash grab and not a serious attempt to make a viable army with lots of diverse builds.
I think that GW has spent FAR too much time releasing models for Space Marines. In the last ten years Space Marines (Including Chaos) have had massive swaths o army updates, where as other armies, especially Orks and Tyranids have received nothing. Tau received at least what, three or maybe 4 models in the last 6 years? Tyranids? I think 2013 for them?
I have heard (awaiting confirmation) that the only thing Tyranids are getting in this new PA book is 6 warlord traits. Whereas Blood Angles, yet another army of space marines are getting a brand new character model and access to tons of new Primaris equipment, alongside new stratagems and warlord traits.
We say it because constantly talking about it is the only way to get awareness out there in the community.
People are aware, they just obviously don’t care. If Space Marines didn’t sell well they wouldn’t release so many of them.
Its a pretty amazing model- really impressive how they captured that original artwork. The quality of that as a single sprue character model is brilliant.
Looking froward to see them apply the same approach whenever they get round to doing something for Nids.
I think that GW has spent FAR too much time releasing models for Space Marines. In the last ten years Space Marines (Including Chaos) have had massive swaths o army updates, where as other armies, especially Orks and Tyranids have received nothing. Tau received at least what, three or maybe 4 models in the last 6 years? Tyranids? I think 2013 for them?
I have heard (awaiting confirmation) that the only thing Tyranids are getting in this new PA book is 6 warlord traits. Whereas Blood Angles, yet another army of space marines are getting a brand new character model and access to tons of new Primaris equipment, alongside new stratagems and warlord traits.
We say it because constantly talking about it is the only way to get awareness out there in the community.
People are aware, they just obviously don’t care. If Space Marines didn’t sell well they wouldn’t release so many of them.
Tyranids don't sell because their line is a mess, their codex is a mess and they've not seen a new nice looking model in 7+ years.
Are we sure that these other factions get ignored because Marines sell more? Or could it be that GW has not a clue what their community is looking for?
The SoB argument has been going on for literal DECADES. Why all of a sudden did they listen now? Cash. Grab.
Togusa wrote: We say it because constantly talking about it is the only way to get awareness out there in the community.
You don't have to explain or justify your opinion, you're entitled to it. The alternative is that players who aren't the beneficiaries of repeated updates leave the hobby, I know enough that have already. Some people don't care if they're only playing Marines, with Marines. That is normal to them. I think it's absurd and toxic, but as the community dwindles/changes composition so that mostly Marine fans remain - it is considered normal that only their faction should get updates and should be playable, because ultimately that's all some players care about.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ImAGeek wrote: They’re a business. Everything they do is a cash grab.
And there is a very convincing argument that they could grab more cash if they spread the releases of both models and rules between factions better.
Togusa wrote: We say it because constantly talking about it is the only way to get awareness out there in the community.
You don't have to explain or justify your opinion, you're entitled to it. The alternative is that players who aren't the beneficiaries of repeated updates leave the hobby, I know enough that have already. Some people don't care if they're only playing Marines, with Marines. That is normal to them. I think it's absurd and toxic, but as the community dwindles/changes composition so that mostly Marine fans remain - it is considered normal that only their faction should get updates and should be playable, because ultimately that's all some players care about.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ImAGeek wrote: They’re a business. Everything they do is a cash grab.
And there is a very convincing argument that they could grab more cash if they spread the releases of both models and rules between factions better.
Agreed on both Points.
I want an IG Army bad. Like, really bad. But, I won't buy in because 70% of that army is old and gacky looking as heck. They could have my money, but so far, nothing of note. Even the new commissar we got was in gacky resin.
Since the non-Marines aren't really playable at the moment, might as well get as many variants of Marines out there as possible
Lots of non-marine armies are being played. GSC, Eldar Dark and Eldar Light, Orks, Imperial Guard. I'm seeing a lot of these on my local tables, but the only thing GW seems to be intent on releasing is more powered armor.
Even the Sisters are in power armor. It's getting....OLD. [u]
.
are you really complaining that SISTERS OF BATTLE are getting an update!? REALLY?!
This is a flat out ridiculous statement. they can say whatever they want but that is some bs if they're serious.
I have heard (awaiting confirmation) that the only thing Tyranids are getting in this new PA book is 6 warlord traits.
Sauce on that?? I really hope it's not the French folks who have been right every time... if that's the case, that's laughable. One of the armies in the worst place in 8th, languishing with bad, unfluffy rules for most of the history of the game, not receiving a new model since 2013. And GW wants Nids players to fork over $40 for 6 WLTs. I'm trying not to get too hysterical since it's a rumor of possibly dubious provenance. But does that sound like something that could happen? Yeah, it sure as does.
Honestly this marine release has really really brought out all the bitter xenos and csm players like nothing I have ever seen before.
The crazy thing Is that with the faster release schedule gw is punting out that most armies have never had so many releases in such a short time frame.
I think the only races to get nothing at all so far is the Tau and the Nids and technically nids got a whole new subfaction and there first allies that were updated fairly recently.
So the only people with any real issue should be the Tau players but I would guess they have enough self awareness to know they have the largest plastic xenos range at the moment I believe.
I mean the loudest complaints seem to be from the Ork players who got a release just not what they wanted, hi welcome to the world of marine players who don't give a feth about primaris.
Then there 40k's proverbial squeaky wheel the Chaos Marine players who have had a new sub faction added, were included in the new starter and that's not including update to deamons or chaos knights have had 2 codexs, 2 sub codexs and 3 supplements more models released by far barring primaris and still they piss and moan that there not as good as the edition breaking 3.5codex. Again like orks not everything released was what they wanted which was mostly to be as broken as feth like the good old days as far as I can tell.
I mean seriously the mods should seriously consider bringing back the CSM quarantine thread just add the orks to it as well this time. I mean seriously gak has got so bad me and Brian Davion agreed with each other a few times now and I consider him one of the biggest whitest knights on here and not to put words in his mouth but I suspect he considers me gw hating black knight.
Even worse I found myself defending GWs's rule writing don't get me wrong I think there barely capable of writing the rules of snap coherently but to give them there does a lot of the issues people are raising are more to do with the house rules they choose to use in running ITC but that's a different issue.
I have heard (awaiting confirmation) that the only thing Tyranids are getting in this new PA book is 6 warlord traits.
Sauce on that?? I really hope it's not the French folks who have been right every time... if that's the case, that's laughable. One of the armies in the worst place in 8th, languishing with bad, unfluffy rules for most of the history of the game, not receiving a new model since 2013. And GW wants Nids players to fork over $40 for 6 WLTs. I'm trying not to get too hysterical since it's a rumor of possibly dubious provenance. But does that sound like something that could happen? Yeah, it sure as does.
Also likely to be one of the armies like GK and DG to be getting a full codex at a guess and if you don't want 6 wt then don't be a good little GW drone and buy it.
I have heard (awaiting confirmation) that the only thing Tyranids are getting in this new PA book is 6 warlord traits.
Sauce on that?? I really hope it's not the French folks who have been right every time... if that's the case, that's laughable. One of the armies in the worst place in 8th, languishing with bad, unfluffy rules for most of the history of the game, not receiving a new model since 2013. And GW wants Nids players to fork over $40 for 6 WLTs. I'm trying not to get too hysterical since it's a rumor of possibly dubious provenance. But does that sound like something that could happen? Yeah, it sure as does.
Considering gw nerfed r&h last CA via point increase on the even worse cultists, PA 1 trolling de hard, and PA 2 supposedly giving supplement equality to Chaos, i think that is actually not as unlikely as it sounds.
Sauce on that?? I really hope it's not the French folks who have been right every time... if that's the case, that's laughable. One of the armies in the worst place in 8th, languishing with bad, unfluffy rules for most of the history of the game, not receiving a new model since 2013. And GW wants Nids players to fork over $40 for 6 WLTs. I'm trying not to get too hysterical since it's a rumor of possibly dubious provenance. But does that sound like something that could happen? Yeah, it sure as does.
I've been keeping an eye on that forum and there's nothing new of substance on PA3 yet, just people talking about Mephiston's model.
FWIW, the last Tyranid model releases were 2014. They got a new codex with 3(?) new kits in January, followed by 3 other kits & a campaign book vs Blood Angels(!) in November. Personally, while I'd love to see a plastic gargantuan creature I'd be much happier with an updated list of fluffy & effective stratagems to use.
Sauce on that?? I really hope it's not the French folks who have been right every time... if that's the case, that's laughable. One of the armies in the worst place in 8th, languishing with bad, unfluffy rules for most of the history of the game, not receiving a new model since 2013. And GW wants Nids players to fork over $40 for 6 WLTs. I'm trying not to get too hysterical since it's a rumor of possibly dubious provenance. But does that sound like something that could happen? Yeah, it sure as does.
I've been keeping an eye on that forum and there's nothing new of substance on PA3 yet, just people talking about Mephiston's model.
FWIW, the last Tyranid model releases were 2014. They got a new codex with 3(?) new kits in January, followed by 3 other kits & a campaign book vs Blood Angels(!) in November. Personally, while I'd love to see a plastic gargantuan creature I'd be much happier with an updated list of fluffy & effective stratagems to use.
Hey, January 2014 is pretty close to 2013, I'll take that as a win lol. And yeah, I completely agree with you on my wishlist: if I can only get one new thing, I'd much rather it be rules. The PA books haven't been *bad* per se; definitely more disappointing in the wake of the SM supplements, but with some solid QoL improvements. So if we get that? Okay, cool. It's something. But GW has shown a lot of tendency to give Nids a whole lotta nothing, and I could see it happening again.
I think the only races to get nothing at all so far is the Tau and the Nids and technically nids got a whole new subfaction and there first allies that were updated fairly recently.
Also likely to be one of the armies like GK and DG to be getting a full codex at a guess and if you don't want 6 wt then don't be a good little GW drone and buy it.
GSC != Nids, or a subfaction thereof. That's not an argument, no "technically" about it.
And yeah, I'm not going to buy this book if it's 6 WLTs, I'm not a moron. I'm also not optimistic about a codex, it seems those only get doled out if you're wearing power armor. Nothing to indicate to the contrary.
But really, if you don't think Nids players deserve the right to whinge, I don't know what to say. I also think that while the salt has been very salty from Xenos and CSM players lately, it's not that far off from the Marines players who complained throughout the edition up until Codex 2.0 (and whining the special snowflake chapters still do -- some of the Blood Angels salt in this thread has been pretty rich.) It's not really a Xenos or Chaos thing, it's more a Dakka thing or possibly a 40k thing (other communities don't tend to whine as much but they also tend to either be more heavily moderated or full of newer players)
SeanDrake wrote: and technically nids got a whole new subfaction and there first allies that were updated fairly recently.
Does that mean as long as Imperial Guard get an update every 5 years or so, Space Marines can get nothing and you'll be happy? Because they're your allies, right?
SeanDrake wrote: I mean the loudest complaints seem to be from the Ork players who got a release just not what they wanted, hi welcome to the world of marine players who don't give a feth about primaris.
Orks lost a whole swathe of character options from their codex, to be replaced with useless buggies. They got buffs, but also points increases.
Marines got points drops, new rules, and new supplements. Even without any new models, you've still received a more useful update than Tyranids, Tau, or Orks have. Guard got useful rules but are still using sculpts from the early 2000s. Eldar and Dark Eldar haven't gotten much either.
So I mean, yeah, if your complaint is that you got new rules but not models, welcome to the world of everyone who doesn't play Primaris or CSM, but at least you're getting points reductions and better rules in the bargain.
Chaos got new charachters, and a severly needed Model Update for a range nearly only compromised on legal drinking age models at the time.
Also models were never really demanded anymore (except possesed) and mostly just finally a fix to the legion traits which didn't happen.
Red text time.
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I have heard (awaiting confirmation) that the only thing Tyranids are getting in this new PA book is 6 warlord traits.
Sauce on that?? I really hope it's not the French folks who have been right every time... if that's the case, that's laughable. One of the armies in the worst place in 8th, languishing with bad, unfluffy rules for most of the history of the game, not receiving a new model since 2013. And GW wants Nids players to fork over $40 for 6 WLTs. I'm trying not to get too hysterical since it's a rumor of possibly dubious provenance. But does that sound like something that could happen? Yeah, it sure as does.
Pretty sure I read that on this forum yesterday, either that or the Reddit page. Let me go check.
umm Black Templars use Space Marine stuff, while they could use primarisized versions of their characters, and a upgrade kit, I'd hardly say that qualifies as "dire need"
Guard is mostly plastic and has a large number of options, ditto Tyranids. I'm sure they could get some new toys if GW was of a mind but I don't think it's exactly in dire need territory.
I mean I dunno Tyranids well eneugh to say, but... what tactical holes for guard are sitting unfilled?
BrianDavion wrote: umm Black Templars use Space Marine stuff, while they could use primarisized versions of their characters, and a upgrade kit, I'd hardly say that qualifies as "dire need"
The last Black Templar kit was made back when Hootie & The Blowfish were still a thing, I think. I know it was from like 2002 or something. I'd have been actually pleased with a new Primaris Sprue.
BrianDavion wrote: Guard is mostly plastic and has a large number of options, ditto Tyranids. I'm sure they could get some new toys if GW was of a mind but I don't think it's exactly in dire need territory.
Yeah, with our... two variations of guardsmen. Oh, wait, three if you count DKoK (that doesn't even have Reg. Doctrines).
BrianDavion wrote: I mean I dunno Tyranids well eneugh to say, but... what tactical holes for guard are sitting unfilled?
Tyranids just need some newer models, TBH. Some things here and there, maybe some little fun alternative heads or what-have-you. I haven't put together any of their kits, or even seen a sprue... but I know it's been a while since they've gotten anything, unless you count GSC (which, IMHO, are some badass kits that every Necromunda player should be buying).
The last Black Templar kit was made back when Hootie & The Blowfish were still a thing, I think. I know it was from like 2002 or something. I'd have been actually pleased with a new Primaris Sprue.
the last black tempalr kit was the primaris phobos release. Yes I think it's annoying they didn't get a char resculpt or upgrade sprue but Black Templars are hardly hurting for new stuff.
Yeah, with our... two variations of guardsmen. Oh, wait, three if you count DKoK (that doesn't even have Reg. Doctrines).
How many other armies have two seperate model lines for their base troops?
Tyranids just need some newer models, TBH. Some things here and there, maybe some little fun alternative heads or what-have-you. I haven't put together any of their kits, or even seen a sprue... but I know it's been a while since they've gotten anything
the entire tyranid line, except for 2 things is all plastic, and most have aged reasonably well IMHO. new stuff would be nice yes, but they're not exactly in "dire need" (Dire need would be eldar aspect warriors)
What was expected for the two chaplains, but very disappointed in the changes for Mephiston; he really only got the bare minimum of the Primaris upgrade.
One detail of note is that the Red Thirst and Black Rage rules are no longer listed, but instead the Angels of Death rule is. I'm guessing Black Rage will be dependent on the Death Company keyword now, and perhaps the BA chapter tactic had been reworked somewhat.
Tyranids just need some newer models, TBH. Some things here and there, maybe some little fun alternative heads or what-have-you. I haven't put together any of their kits, or even seen a sprue... but I know it's been a while since they've gotten anything
the entire tyranid line, except for 2 things is all plastic, and most have aged reasonably well IMHO. new stuff would be nice yes, but they're not exactly in "dire need" (Dire need would be eldar aspect warriors)
Slight correction. 3 units, 2 characters, all seperate kits/sculpts. Biovore, Pyrovore, Lictor, Deathleaper, and the Red Terror. Are they bad looking? Not entirely. Red is the oldest and least 'alpha' beast looking of his species. Do they look bad compared to Eldar Aspect warriors? Lol, nothing looks as bad compared to them.
As for the kits, I just really want them to redo the Termagant and Horm kits because of those terrible split-in-half heads you have to put together and fill, and the poor posing on the Horms. Even if it was just an extra sprue of none 2-piece heads sold seperately I wouldn't even be as frustrated with the kits.
At any rate, looking at Meph, he looks cool. Real good standard for plastic sculpts for new characters there.
Very interesting leaks from those datacards. I'm assuming Red Thirst has been reworked to be a Chapter Tactic, perhaps to allow for Flesh Tearers to have their own CT?
Mephiston has the extra wound and attack, but his power level has remained the same. Maybe this will hold true to his points?
Psychic powers are taken from the Codex, so we're not getting anything new from PA:3, which is fine.
Litanies confirmed at long last! Sanguinius smiles!
Overall, I'd say Blood Angels are getting a few tricks that Vanilla got with with their new codex, and that works for me
What was expected for the two chaplains, but very disappointed in the changes for Mephiston; he really only got the bare minimum of the Primaris upgrade.
One detail of note is that the Red Thirst and Black Rage rules are no longer listed, but instead the Angels of Death rule is. I'm guessing Black Rage will be dependent on the Death Company keyword now, and perhaps the BA chapter tactic had been reworked somewhat.
What was expected for the two chaplains, but very disappointed in the changes for Mephiston; he really only got the bare minimum of the Primaris upgrade.
One detail of note is that the Red Thirst and Black Rage rules are no longer listed, but instead the Angels of Death rule is. I'm guessing Black Rage will be dependent on the Death Company keyword now, and perhaps the BA chapter tactic had been reworked somewhat.
or GW's changed these to mono codex buffs?
Here;s hoping its not a day 1 FAQ issue where they just forgot it.
I think the only races to get nothing at all so far is the Tau and the Nids and technically nids got a whole new subfaction and there first allies that were updated fairly recently.
Ah yes. Single character model is soooooo nice. Of course it wasn't even new character. Yey. And mediocre codex. What an amazing treat necrons have had!
I think the only races to get nothing at all so far is the Tau and the Nids and technically nids got a whole new subfaction and there first allies that were updated fairly recently.
Ah yes. Single character model is soooooo nice. Of course it wasn't even new character. Yey. And mediocre codex. What an amazing treat necrons have had!
did he say "necrons should love what they got"? no he said "technicly they've gotten SOMETHING
It looks like the marine players are just as quick to defend their glut of releases as xenos players are to lament them.
Either way, its off topic.
Primephiston shouldn't have the black rage any more should he? I thought no primaris had it and technically he dies to become primaris which should end the black rage, shouldn't it?
Mephiston cannot ride in a razorback or rhino with his death company brothers, because he is now PRIMARIS. Or his death company brothers cant ride with him in an impulsor, repulsor, etc. Well done GW
An Actual Englishman wrote: It looks like the marine players are just as quick to defend their glut of releases as xenos players are to lament them.
Either way, its off topic.
Primephiston shouldn't have the black rage any more should he? I thought no primaris had it and technically he dies to become primaris which should end the black rage, shouldn't it?
Cawl claims he's solved those issues but there's a lot of evidance he wasn't as sucessful as he talked himself up. my guess is he's bought some time but those flaws are GOING to come back. Cawl didn't wanna tinker with stuff too much as some of those flaws are presumably tied to the emperor's plan.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It looks like the marine players are just as quick to defend their glut of releases as xenos players are to lament them.
Either way, its off topic.
Primephiston shouldn't have the black rage any more should he? I thought no primaris had it and technically he dies to become primaris which should end the black rage, shouldn't it?
Mephiston overcame black rage by becoming Mephiston. That's his basic old story. He was Librarian Calistrarius (for whom a miniature exists in Space Hulk), who was overcome by Black Rage fighting on Armageddon. Unlike most Blood Angels, he overcame the black rage and was "reborn" as Mephiston, Lord of Death. That's pretty much his fluff since 2nd Edition.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It looks like the marine players are just as quick to defend their glut of releases as xenos players are to lament them.
In all fairness, there's a reason that internet discussions about 40k are called Whingehammer.
People cry because their army didn't get a new thing. And when it does, it's not the new thing they wanted. Unless it is, then that new thing doesn't work as good as it should. And when it does, it sucks because everyone else is using it.
Also it's really easy to say that the army you don't like gets all the good stuff, or is at least perfectly fine.
Also everyone's Codex sucks and needs to be redone. Especially mine, yours is just fine. I don't play your army but it's fine.
Until you beat me, or get something new. Then you're OP and GW sucks at rules and balance.
Because we all hate GW, and maybe if we throw our money at them harder they'll change the way they do things.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Primephiston shouldn't have the black rage any more should he? I thought no primaris had it and technically he dies to become primaris which should end the black rage, shouldn't it?
Mephiston didn't have the Black Rage rule before his Primaris upgrade either. His background is that he was Calistarius, who fell to the Black Rage but overcame it and became Mephiston.
An Actual Englishman wrote: It looks like the marine players are just as quick to defend their glut of releases as xenos players are to lament them.
In all fairness, there's a reason that internet discussions about 40k are called Whingehammer.
People cry because their army didn't get a new thing. And when it does, it's not the new thing they wanted. Unless it is, then that new thing doesn't work as good as it should. And when it does, it sucks because everyone else is using it.
Also it's really easy to say that the army you don't like gets all the good stuff, or is at least perfectly fine.
Also everyone's Codex sucks and needs to be redone. Especially mine, yours is just fine. I don't play your army but it's fine.
Until you beat me, or get something new. Then you're OP and GW sucks at rules and balance.
Because we all hate GW, and maybe if we throw our money at them harder they'll change the way they do things.
So you're saying Warhammer 40K is perfectly balanced and always has been, meaning any and all criticism voiced by GW customers, past and present, is and always was without merit?
An Actual Englishman wrote: It looks like the marine players are just as quick to defend their glut of releases as xenos players are to lament them.
In all fairness, there's a reason that internet discussions about 40k are called Whingehammer.
People cry because their army didn't get a new thing. And when it does, it's not the new thing they wanted. Unless it is, then that new thing doesn't work as good as it should. And when it does, it sucks because everyone else is using it.
Also it's really easy to say that the army you don't like gets all the good stuff, or is at least perfectly fine.
Also everyone's Codex sucks and needs to be redone. Especially mine, yours is just fine. I don't play your army but it's fine.
Until you beat me, or get something new. Then you're OP and GW sucks at rules and balance.
Because we all hate GW, and maybe if we throw our money at them harder they'll change the way they do things.
So you're saying Warhammer 40K is perfectly balanced and always has been, meaning any and all criticism voiced by GW customers, past and present, is and always was without merit?
except he's not wrong, people do tend to focus on balance flaws that aren't their army, and DO tend towards hyperbole.
except he's not wrong, people do tend to focus on balance flaws that aren't their army, and DO tend towards hyperbole.
Is it? I find quite the opposite. People aren't nearly appreciative enough of valid concerns of underpowered armies that aren't their own and overtly dismissive of valid criticisms vs. overpowered armies if they happen to be the beneficiaries of rules-that-are-a-bit-too-good.
The game and the internet would do well to take 99% of all criticism voiced much, much, much more serious, especially if people have no reasoned or logical counterargument and instead resort to personal attacks of accusing people of "whining" or "whining" when they don't agree.
Sunny Side Up wrote: So you're saying Warhammer 40K is perfectly balanced and always has been, meaning any and all criticism voiced by GW customers, past and present, is and always was without merit?
Don't look for five-star cuisine at a $4.99 buffet. The crab legs are going to be mediocre at best, but at least you can get chicken wings to go with them.
BrianDavion wrote: except he's not wrong, people do tend to focus on balance flaws that aren't their army, and DO tend towards hyperbole.
I saw a grown adult man... let me be clear, a man at least in his mid 40's....
On the subject of Space Marines old vs. Primaris, and old Marines being phased out over time...
Let me say again, A GROWN ADULT MAN.
...I saw him speak of this subject like one of his dearest friends or family members was being pulled off life support, I watched this guy go on about these miniatures as if they were his family heirlooms and life savings... during the Invasion of Iraq, I watched Iraqi citizens who weren't sure if their house was still standing or what their future would be like- and they were less pitiful and whiny.
...not "Old Marines are going away", let me remind you. Old Marines won't be seeing any new models, all the new releases will be focused around Primaris, and you can still use your old Space Marines....
This man (or adult male) spoke of this as if it were the greatest atrocity of his lifetime, and honestly admitted to actually crying. He accused others of being heartless monsters.
I am not exaggerating. I am deliberately ensuring that none of this is hyperbolic. This is as honest of a representation I can give.
This was before his wailing turned to outright rage, and he worded his vitriol afterward as if he were some aspiring revolutionary demanding that the common people band together and rise up against the tyranny and injustice of Games Workshop and cast them down from their Ivory Towers by force.
Again, I'm using an analogy. Not an exagerration, not hyperbole.
This was a grown adult male, in his 40's.
Now, pause. Cringe. Feel the disgust, let it settle. I know you feel it.
Guess how many people agreed with his absolutely pathetic tirade?
I'll tell you.
A lot. More than a few. Major politicians, popular musicians, and massive events get fewer likes and shares.
Enough that if you were curious about 40k, and you went online and saw this- you'd go to the Warhammer tables at your FLGS just to hurl abuse and ridicule at Warhammer players, because it was absolutely mind-blowing and disgusting.
Sunny Side Up wrote: So you're saying Warhammer 40K is perfectly balanced and always has been, meaning any and all criticism voiced by GW customers, past and present, is and always was without merit?
Don't look for five-star cuisine at a $4.99 buffet. The crab legs are going to be mediocre at best, but at least you can get chicken wings to go with them.
Doesn't matter what you look for. If the crab legs are bad, saying the crab legs are bad and/or could be better wouldn't be "whining" or "whinging". It'd just be stating a fact.
You cannot accuse people of whinging or whining if they simply comment on the obvious.
Dakka has interesting characters, but I tend to not really regard them very often. The worst of them tend to escalate things, and when someone throws down a road flare I tend to slosh gasoline around and giggle, even when I catch my shoes on fire.
As I've said about complaints, there's two kinds.
A- Waaaaaaa! This bad, I don't like it, fix it and make it better!
B- Explain the problem, show some way that it is defective/deficient, offer some kind of possible solution, ensure there's some degree of comparison, and play devil's advocate or consider devil's advocate.
Remember the "Mechanic" analogy:
If you say, "My car is broke, fix it" and toss him the keys and huff- it's going to stay in that lot for a long time, and rack up a lot of lot fees. And when the Mechanic goes through and finally works on it, and checks everything... well, there's no assurances he can find the problem (or the right problem), and you're going to have an absurd bill and your car is still broken.
If you at least try to give some kind of guidance, some kind of suggestions, and you have some actual communication- then you'll be surprised. Who knows, you might have that mechanic that tells you how to fix a problem for less than $50.00 on your own in 20 minutes and doesn't charge you anything.
But, I will not lay all of the blame on the players. A lot lies on GW, because they've made plenty of dumb decisions and they've ignored the player feedback in the past without reason.
I'm one of those people that's still bitter and will sit around and wonder what "Inquisitor 2nd Edition" or "Shadow War: Vigilus" could have been like.
Shocked the Sanguinary Guard aren't getting Primaris'd. You'd think if they could make the Ultramarine Eagleface Guards, they could do the same for cherub-face stubbyleg models.
Except they seem to be fine, since people keep eating them. And you're not saying what you dislike about them. Overcooked? Undercooked? Just not to your personal taste? Too small?
Feedback has to be useful to be considered, otherwise, you'll get "I'm sorry this wasn't up to your standards and we hope we can better suit your taste in the future".
Because, you may think it's obvious. But why you don't like the crab legs isn't, so yeah- that's just whining.
Does it really?
I never found there was a shortage of reasons of why people consider certain units/combos/armies overpowered or underpowered. There are literally hundreds of threads on Dakkadakka alone on how people would change this mechanic or that unit.
The paucity of reasons has in my experience never been on the side of people who want to improve the game, and is virtually always on the mentally lazy that dismiss other people's concerns as "whining" or "whining" or some other personal attack, instead of actually engaging in argument and reason.
p5freak wrote: Mephiston cannot ride in a razorback or rhino with his death company brothers, because he is now PRIMARIS. Or his death company brothers cant ride with him in an impulsor, repulsor, etc. Well done GW
If you aren't making your Mephiston fly with WINGS OF FIRE you are doing it wrong. Unless you are using that in a Dreadnought. Then alls good.
BrianDavion wrote: How many other armies have two seperate model lines for their base troops?
Death Guard have five different kits just for their plague marines alone, and that's just this edition stuff. They had two more earlier, then there is FW stuff for them which makes troop marines too, two plastic kits with resin upgrades. This has to be a record in different concurrent boxes for a single unit
Unless you count dozens of models from SMH line, 3 new event exclusives, and a pile of stuff from FW, then yeah, absolutely none
Besides the new Librarian terminator, what are the other two old marine exclusive models? I am dreading the day SMH releases primaris, but I hope they release some new scouts or veterans before they go all Primaris. Or some more chaos marines.
Back with Mephiston, how many character models are there that can instantly die from a bad roll like Mephiston? The Lord of Death killed by a faulty plasma pistol
Back with Mephiston, how many character models are there that can instantly die from a bad roll like Mephiston? The Lord of Death killed by a faulty plasma pistol
Literally any that can take plasma weapons. Have a DA playing friend who flat out refuses to run a specific Azrael model because it's cursed and explodes in (and I am not exaggerating here) every game.
BrianDavion wrote: thsats right tau got something in the alst chapter approved didn't they?
Kinda? They got rules for The Eight which isn't something new, they just weren't ported over to 8th for whatever reason until then. The new kroot guy from BSF is new, but a single 20pt character in a $150 box isn't exactly exciting regardless of how strong his booby traps are.
Either way, the treatment of Tyranids is going to set the expectations for Xenos factions in the rest of the books. If they get phoned in like the Eldar were then Xenos hype will be deader than it already is.
BrianDavion wrote: umm Black Templars use Space Marine stuff, while they could use primarisized versions of their characters, and a upgrade kit, I'd hardly say that qualifies as "dire need"
Guard is mostly plastic and has a large number of options, ditto Tyranids. I'm sure they could get some new toys if GW was of a mind but I don't think it's exactly in dire need territory.
I mean I dunno Tyranids well eneugh to say, but... what tactical holes for guard are sitting unfilled?
He's not saying he wants new units so much as updated kits for what we have. These aren't to fill Tactical holes, they're to fix ancient kits that have been neglected for yet another Primaris release, or more annoyingly, a new model no one asked for that isn't even good.
Black Templar upgrade kit for example isn't compatible with the modern tac marine sprue without modifications and trimming, and has 0 Primaris bits.
Imperial Guard infantry squad boxes are a joke at this point, they're ancient and lack almost all the options they can take. Catachan infantry box comes with two flamers, two boxes, and that's it, not even a chainsword. Cadians get a whopping addition of a grenade launcher. For an army that can easily field 20 plasma guns without breaking a sweat. One of the most iconic units, the basilisk, is an old kit that is only sold online. Then you have several regiments that aren't even sold aside from some monopose metals. But to add insult to injury, instead of just redoing the basalisk kit, we got the taurox, which requires $20 upgrade kits from 3rd parties just make passable, yet it costs as much as a Russ $$$ wise.
For nids, same thing. There are some ancient models here, and others that don't really have the loadouts they should.
For guard and nids, not only are these old kits a bit annoying, but GW has been cutting the models in the box while raising the price on them over the years. It's inexcusable that 10 cadians now cost more than 20 did back in the day, and the kit isn't even remotely up to their competition's standards. You can get 30 bolt action riflemen for the price of 10 guardsmen, and the bolt action box comes with all the bits needed to make officers, weapon teams, and popular special weapons like panzerfausts and AR's. And not only that, they look better too. Compare a box of the new grenadiers, USMC, SS, or British Paras to a box of Catachans and Cadians and you'll get mad real quick.
And this is ignoring the poor orks, who had a very reasonable request. "Ghaz, new buggy, tankbustas/kommandoz, and deff koptaz." 4 backbone kits to the army that would've sold fine even as a redesign. But instead GW released 4 random buggy designs and called it a day.
That's the issue a lot of these armies are complaining about. It's not that they're not getting new models, but that these new models are completely out of touch with what the average player needs/wants. Core kits are pushing the legal drinking age in some armies and yet we have so many different Primaris models it's hard to keep the names straight. Sisters of battle is a great start, as was chaos finally giving us a havoc box, you get the idea. Now they just need to keep up with updated kits for stuff like the various xenos and less glamorous Imperial/chaos units. Primaris marines seriously need a break so other armies can get caught up with modern kits.
For sure the biggest entry is the Angels of Death rule that will be on page 34. You have to expect that they will get the same as regular marines with combat doctrines etc. This bodes well for SW and DA later.
bullyboy wrote: For sure the biggest entry is the Angels of Death rule that will be on page 34. You have to expect that they will get the same as regular marines with combat doctrines etc. This bodes well for SW and DA later.
Yeah. That is definitely a good sign. Perhaps each Space Marine will get their own Combat Doctrines? Who knows. I am hoping for exclusive Litanies for each one as well. It'll make me run Lemartes again to go with my Death Company.
ThirstySpaceMan wrote: So did dw get access to anything new? Sorry if it was mentioned earlier. Would be sweet to be able to field a techmarine.
Uh we got...
...Primaris Lieutenants to convert into Deathwatch Sergeants! Yay, us...?
At this point it feels like the only reason I'm playing Deathwatch is to create interesting and unique Marines from the whole array of Space Marines. I'm kind of okay with that, but it would be nice to at least be able to incorporate the Vanguard units- even if I can't mix them in with Intercessors (maybe all-phobos kill teams would be dope).
I never found there was a shortage of reasons of why people consider certain units/combos/armies overpowered or underpowered. There are literally hundreds of threads on Dakkadakka alone on how people would change this mechanic or that unit.
Then that's called explaining the problem and communicating it, which is how you address a grievance. That's the correct way to make a complaint, and that's how things get fixed (well, ideally).
Keep in mind that for some problems that people complain about, it's white noise without that explanation. And we both know you can throw a stick into a mob of 40k players and hit 3 guys that are complaining because it's not 3rd Edition anymore (hyperbole, sure- but with everything there's folks who complain for the sake of complaining).
Another thing to consider is that sometimes people will complain about a thing, because they misunderstand a rule. I had a friend who, I kid you not- back in 7th edition thought flamers were absolutely useless and never took them and always complained about them... because he didn't know they could be used for overwatch because he misinterpreted the blast template rules. Once he explained the complaint he had, I showed him, and he felt silly.
Sunny Side Up wrote: The paucity of reasons has in my experience never been on the side of people who want to improve the game, and is virtually always on the mentally lazy that dismiss other people's concerns as "whining" or "whining" or some other personal attack, instead of actually engaging in argument and reason.
Well, when you tell me that X sucks, I'm gonna wanna know how. Don't expect me to go and invest in Codexes or do in-depth research on armies I don't play or have any interest in.
Grey Knights, for example- oh yeah, those guys need a fix. And I know this, as someone who has zero desire to play them or get anything on them because someone explained to me where they're deficient and showed me the problem. Now I'm on that guy's side. If nothing else, now I know my friend that's a diehard Grey Knight player might need some kind of extra boost for a friendly game to be a bit more fair and balanced when I play him, and I don't feel like I'm just smashing his favorite toys. That's not a fix but it makes things a little better for everyone in some small way.
The mentally lazy are the ones that simply refuse to show others the problem. You want support, and you get that by showing people and educating them. You both end up better for it. But when you're just saying "X isn't good", and not bothering to explain to me why... well, many people would just write that off as whining or a player that doesn't know how to use his army. And that sucks and has an absolute zero positive.
I still find Deathwatch to be a great army overall. It has good units, and Shock Assault made terminators and vanvets better if you ever chose to take them. The Corvus still needs work damnit, I have 2 and wish they were better (I still play them, but they are overpriced for their utility).
Adding Vanguard would be great, but will need a new entry to have a mixed vanguard unit. maybe in their PA update sometime next year.
ThirstySpaceMan wrote: So did dw get access to anything new? Sorry if it was mentioned earlier. Would be sweet to be able to field a techmarine.
DW got access to the repulsor executioner.
I'm hoping we get a primaris tech marine not too far off, thunder fire cannons are in resin and literally the only remaining resin space Marine Unit (yes there are other things in finecast but it's characters) so it seems logical to put out a plastic one with a primaris tech marine.
a plastic tech marine would likely increase the odds of death watch having tech marines a fair bit
I'm surprised his plasma pistol is still just a plasma pistol. It's obviously a cawl pattern, but no improved stats. Don't get me wrong, I'm cool with that as you don't need to remember even more slightly different weapons.
Great news, there are 2 french guys now. The new guy confirmed a lot of what the first french guy said and added more details to PA2 several weeks before pre-order. BTW, he was right about everything.
I'm going to paraphrase him and also, I'm not going to tell his name because of what happened to the first french guy (he doesn't talk much anymore unfortunately).
1) Neither the first guy nor the second said anything about Tyranids. Sorry :(
2) The second guy confirmed that BA will get Combat Doctrines and what they get will make BA "closer to -regular- SMs" and their bonus will trigger in Assault Doctrine.
3) He also said that "a lot of what is discussed right now about Chapter Approved 2019 is wrong".
And now the big bomb.
Spoiler:
PA will be over in June. V9 will come soon after PA is over.
Great news, there are 2 french guys now. The new guy confirmed a lot of what the first french guy and added more details to PA2 several weeks before pre-order. BTW, he was right about everything.
I'm going to paraphrase him and also, I'm not going to tell his name because of what happened to the first french guy (he doesn't talk much anymore unfortunately).
1) Neither the first guy nor the second said anything about Tyranids. Sorry :(
2) The second guy confirmed that BA will get Combat Doctrines and what they get will be "close to what -regular- SMs got" and their bonus will trigger in Assault Doctrine.
3) He also said that "a lot of what is discussed right now about Chapter Approved 2019 is false".
And now the big bomb.
Spoiler:
PA will be over in June. V9 will come soon after PA is over.
Great news, there are 2 french guys now. The new guy confirmed a lot of what the first french guy said and added more details to PA2 several weeks before pre-order. BTW, he was right about everything.
I'm going to paraphrase him and also, I'm not going to tell his name because of what happened to the first french guy (he doesn't talk much anymore unfortunately).
1) Neither the first guy nor the second said anything about Tyranids. Sorry :(
2) The second guy confirmed that BA will get Combat Doctrines and what they get will make BA "closer to -regular- SMs" and their bonus will trigger in Assault Doctrine.
3) He also said that "a lot of what is discussed right now about Chapter Approved 2019 is wrong".
And now the big bomb.
Spoiler:
PA will be over in June. V9 will come soon after PA is over.
I think I know who the second guy is. You're right in that Kikass has gone quiet.
Why don't you Francophones share the information? It's like blood out of a stone.
Back with Mephiston, how many character models are there that can instantly die from a bad roll like Mephiston? The Lord of Death killed by a faulty plasma pistol
I never overcharge plasma on anything more valuable than a squad sergeant, even if I have rerolls available. My dice are too fickle. Let Mehpy shooy at S7 and it is all fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sunny Side Up wrote: If the Dreads borrowed the Wings of Sanguinius, Mephiston can now also surf on an Impulsor and hop off after it moved.
Yes but he can't assault if he does that (which is really what you want to be doing with Mephy). Otherwise he can jump out clkose to the enemy and fire his plasma pistol (see above ).
Great news, there are 2 french guys now. The new guy confirmed a lot of what the first french guy said and added more details to PA2 several weeks before pre-order. BTW, he was right about everything.
I'm going to paraphrase him and also, I'm not going to tell his name because of what happened to the first french guy (he doesn't talk much anymore unfortunately).
1) Neither the first guy nor the second said anything about Tyranids. Sorry :(
2) The second guy confirmed that BA will get Combat Doctrines and what they get will make BA "closer to -regular- SMs" and their bonus will trigger in Assault Doctrine.
3) He also said that "a lot of what is discussed right now about Chapter Approved 2019 is wrong".
And now the big bomb.
Spoiler:
PA will be over in June. V9 will come soon after PA is over.
If true, the Combat Doctrines for BAngels makes me very happy. And so does 9E coming soon after. Hopefully it just cleans up the issues 8th has, especially CP’s.
I have my own sources, and while I'll never say they're 100% accurate... there's been a bit of stuff they've whispered to me that at least seemed very close to what they were trying explain to me. I don't think they're privy to things after a certain point, but rather earlier in the phase.
As I'm understanding, we'll see edition 8.5 soon-ish. Maybe they'll call it 9th. It'll basically be what we've got now, but refined and polished up with a few adjustments, namely the changes that have been made since 8th. As I was told, there was still a lot that they hadn't figured out before 8th was sent out the door and they were hoping to have it all at the point where it is now within the first year.
Wouldn't be a bad idea to look at how Warcry is played, we might see something like that make it to 40k. It won't be 40k or Kill Team, maybe just an alternate way to play a game or something.
"Legends" is going to piss off a lot of people. And it's not going to be one set of profiles for models that aren't made any more, it'll be something they add models to over the years. You'll still be able to use them but there just won't be any planning made around those particular units. I'm not sure what that means.
Just what I hear, take it with a grain of salt. Things change A LOT apparently, and I've a tendency to misinterpret (this person has very broken English).
Great news, there are 2 french guys now. The new guy confirmed a lot of what the first french guy said and added more details to PA2 several weeks before pre-order. BTW, he was right about everything.
I'm going to paraphrase him and also, I'm not going to tell his name because of what happened to the first french guy (he doesn't talk much anymore unfortunately).
1) Neither the first guy nor the second said anything about Tyranids. Sorry :(
2) The second guy confirmed that BA will get Combat Doctrines and what they get will make BA "closer to -regular- SMs" and their bonus will trigger in Assault Doctrine.
3) He also said that "a lot of what is discussed right now about Chapter Approved 2019 is wrong".
And now the big bomb.
Spoiler:
PA will be over in June. V9 will come soon after PA is over.
I think I know who the second guy is. You're right in that Kikass has gone quiet.
Why don't you Francophones share the information? It's like blood out of a stone.
IIRC I think one of the leakers said something about the sleeping beast that is GW legal starting to twitch its eyelids open and sniffing around its horritying snout, so he decided to lie low for some time.
8.5 "hey we actually put all the rules in one spot and you keep your codexes" edition? Cool, works for me. Maybe reprint a few dexes that came out early on to fix the ones that have garbage traits/relics/etc. Just as long as the books are still usable.
9.0 "nice codex you had there, shame if it was useless paper 6 months after it came out" edition. Ehhhhh, better be really good and they better finally stick all the armies in once book or online downloads all at once. Otherwise it'll be really annoying.
Should've known pyschic awakening was the harbinger of 9th, it's Gathering storm all over again. Makes sense, we just got some really useful and thematic chaos rules
strategems and command points are a fun element, far superior to the fiasco that was formations in 7th. Just re-balance the detachments and allotment of CP. Battalions should drop back to 3, but make the base 5 or 6. Brigades ought to pick up a Lord of War slot as well
Release of Sisters and a "Just the rules" version (that wasn't updated) seems like a good indication 9th is around the corner.
Good news is, all my armies are complete so I don't feel like I have to chase the rule edition anymore. Won't be going to 9th when it happens - next year or ten years down the road.
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at that. Because every 
It's the snowflakers who whined the Codex 
