bullyboy wrote: I still find Deathwatch to be a great army overall. It has good units, and Shock Assault made terminators and vanvets better if you ever chose to take them. The Corvus still needs work damnit, I have 2 and wish they were better (I still play them, but they are overpriced for their utility).
Adding Vanguard would be great, but will need a new entry to have a mixed vanguard unit. maybe in their PA update sometime next year.
I agree with all you'd like to see with DW. That would all make me happy, I love my 2 Corvus, but they are over expensive meh at the moment and we really would make good use out of vanguard units.
Great news, there are 2 french guys now. The new guy confirmed a lot of what the first french guy said and added more details to PA2 several weeks before pre-order. BTW, he was right about everything.
I'm going to paraphrase him and also, I'm not going to tell his name because of what happened to the first french guy (he doesn't talk much anymore unfortunately).
1) Neither the first guy nor the second said anything about Tyranids. Sorry :(
2) The second guy confirmed that BA will get Combat Doctrines and what they get will make BA "closer to -regular- SMs" and their bonus will trigger in Assault Doctrine.
3) He also said that "a lot of what is discussed right now about Chapter Approved 2019 is wrong".
And now the big bomb.
Spoiler:
PA will be over in June. V9 will come soon after PA is over.
I think I know who the second guy is. You're right in that Kikass has gone quiet.
Why don't you Francophones share the information? It's like blood out of a stone.
IIRC I think one of the leakers said something about the sleeping beast that is GW legal starting to twitch its eyelids open and sniffing around its horritying snout, so he decided to lie low for some time.
I don't know anything about that. I know that Valrak kept mentioning him by name and it freaked him out/annoyed him so he's either taking a break from leaking or he's passing his leaks to another to share on his behalf.
I imagine he's a little worried that the mere mention of his name would have GW legal sniffing about, but to be frank "some guy posted this at the french site" is eneugh to work with. I mean.. maybe it's just my Canadian showing but I tend to assume any large multinational corp is going to have some bilingual employees they could use to track this down. He made a post on a forum. and useally names on forums are linked to email addresses. assuming he's not using a "burner" email address, tracking him down'd be managable.
Am I wrong, or is it a good thing that Guardsmen are going to 5ppm (potentially if these rumours are true) isn’t it a plague currently with them being so damn cheap?
Tiberius501 wrote: Am I wrong, or is it a good thing that Guardsmen are going to 5ppm (potentially if these rumours are true) isn’t it a plague currently with them being so damn cheap?
Wont solve the issue, the glorious 32 will just be replaced for cp reasons with the rusty 17?
Tiberius501 wrote: Am I wrong, or is it a good thing that Guardsmen are going to 5ppm (potentially if these rumours are true) isn’t it a plague currently with them being so damn cheap?
Wont solve the issue, the glorious 32 will just be replaced for cp reasons with the rusty 17?
Isn't the same rumour that they will loose their access to Canticles if not full Ad Mech army?
Tiberius501 wrote: Am I wrong, or is it a good thing that Guardsmen are going to 5ppm (potentially if these rumours are true) isn’t it a plague currently with them being so damn cheap?
Wont solve the issue, the glorious 32 will just be replaced for cp reasons with the rusty 17?
Isn't the same rumour that they will loose their access to Canticles if not full Ad Mech army?
I don't know, i just don't believe that hiking the price on guardsmen is something that effectively fights issues with soup which are their own making.
BrianDavion wrote: I expect 9th edition is going to just be a clean up edition. 8th was a big change from 3-7th and thus GW'll be needing to apply the lessons learned
Sadly I reckon you are right. 9th could be a great chance to implement some (if not all) of the rules from Apocalypse in to regular 40K.
Instead what we'll see is essentially what 4th-7th editions were. A tidy up of the core game mechanics with a few tweaks here and there. Given that 8th will be 3 years old in June 2020 it does seem plausible that GW will start the cycle of getting everyone to buy new Codexes/rulebooks again.
BrianDavion wrote: I expect 9th edition is going to just be a clean up edition. 8th was a big change from 3-7th and thus GW'll be needing to apply the lessons learned
Sadly I reckon you are right. 9th could be a great chance to implement some (if not all) of the rules from Apocalypse in to regular 40K.
Instead what we'll see is essentially what 4th-7th editions were. A tidy up of the core game mechanics with a few tweaks here and there. Given that 8th will be 3 years old in June 2020 it does seem plausible that GW will start the cycle of getting everyone to buy new Codexes/rulebooks again.
I think we’re more likely to see a further AoSifacation of 40k sad to say rather than any actual improvements to the game.
Interesting on the new Edition rumour.. I remember reading when 8th came out they wanted to establish Chaos as the "Big Bad". They have clearly done that and have got the new Primaris established to, kind of like how they started with AoS [stormcast and chaos dominated releases ]. Hopefully that having been done along with new production facilities, we might start seeing great variety of releases again.
BrianDavion wrote: I expect 9th edition is going to just be a clean up edition. 8th was a big change from 3-7th and thus GW'll be needing to apply the lessons learned
Sadly I reckon you are right. 9th could be a great chance to implement some (if not all) of the rules from Apocalypse in to regular 40K.
Instead what we'll see is essentially what 4th-7th editions were. A tidy up of the core game mechanics with a few tweaks here and there. Given that 8th will be 3 years old in June 2020 it does seem plausible that GW will start the cycle of getting everyone to buy new Codexes/rulebooks again.
I think we’re more likely to see a further AoSifacation of 40k sad to say rather than any actual improvements to the game.
Considering 8th ed started life as AOS 1.0, but then they made it worse, they really can't do much to make it more like AOS without improving the game again
I think the french community is not being malicious. To be honest, we are not used to have reliable rumour mongers from our own nationality (it might even be a first). We are more used to getting leaks from the anglosphere since the Warseer era.
While Warhammer gained a lot of popularity during the past few years in France, our community is still very small and all "leaks" were published in the form of short posts on a forum. Also, you have to keep in mind that many french people are not good at all in English (it's not really the case for younger generations though) and the aforementioned forum is mainly visited by "french veterans" of Warhammer. Each time we get a leak in English, many people are asking for a translation, for example.
Also, several employees of GW were members of the forum before GW hired them (one example : the designer of the Death Guard minis and Mortation is french and he used to make incredible Nurgle conversions and post pictures on the forum ) and they are still present (although don't post much anymore for obvious reasons), thus why people are even more careful.
That's my analysis of the situation.
PS : the second guy said that C:SM is a "9th edition" Codex. Someone asked him if SoB were a 9th edition too and he said something like "If it has something akin to Combat Doctrines, then yes". That's it.
By Combat Doctrines, I think he meant "An advantage that you lose if you use soup" (= Sacred Rites for SoB).
I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA
A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.
Galef wrote: I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA
A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.
Galef wrote: I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA
A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.
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Indexs volume 2 for the win
Well, lets hope not. As much as I like the Indexes, they were a bit lacking in content and invalidated far too quickly. I was more referring to 9E keeping all the existing Codices/Supplements but being more restrictive in how you build an army and generate CPs.
Galef wrote: I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA
A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.
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Indexs volume 2 for the win
Well, lets hope not. As much as I like the Indexes, they were a bit lacking in content and invalidated far too quickly. I was more referring to 9E keeping all the existing Codices/Supplements but being more restrictive in how you build an army and generate CPs.
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Having just got (well only ordered) the Sisters dex it would be too soon. I agree a re-working of bits and pieces would be good.
Tiberius501 wrote: Am I wrong, or is it a good thing that Guardsmen are going to 5ppm (potentially if these rumours are true) isn’t it a plague currently with them being so damn cheap?
Wont solve the issue, the glorious 32 will just be replaced for cp reasons with the rusty 17?
Faithful 17 wouldn't be much more either (225 vs. 210). Make them Valorous Heart and they'll have much better survivability while hiding in cover to hold an objective. MIght even get a few bonus Deny's off of them too.
Faithful 17 wouldn't be much more either (225 vs. 210). Make them Valorous Heart and they'll have much better survivability while hiding in cover to hold an objective. MIght even get a few bonus Deny's off of them too.
Faithful 18. You're gonna want that Imagifier for telling AP2 to sod off.
Galef wrote: I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA
A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.
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No, the single biggest source of issues for the 8th edition is how the command points are being generated. If they fix that, a lot of problems will go away or become much easier to fix.
Galef wrote: I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA
A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.
-
No, the single biggest source of issues for the 8th edition is how the command points are being generated. If they fix that, a lot of problems will go away or become much easier to fix.
Haven't the marine supplements, despite being a raging dumpster fire of salt, proven that lower CP elite armies can still function if they are costed appropriately? Marines could be tuned down gently and still function with lower CP than horde armies.
Galef wrote: I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA
A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.
-
No, the single biggest source of issues for the 8th edition is how the command points are being generated. If they fix that, a lot of problems will go away or become much easier to fix.
Yeah, I agree with that. I don't include that as the Core mechanics, but I should I guess. Fewer detachments that generate less CPs for mixing Factions would be a good start
Heck even making Stratagems limited per game would help too. Maybe take the Smite approach. Add 1CP to the cost if you use a Strat a second or third time per game? Just brainstorming here
People aren't too happy with the buckets of dice either. Hopefully they tone that down significantly and don't just go back to crazy town with each codex being worse than the one prior right after release.
Yeah, I agree with that. I don't include that as the Core mechanics, but I should I guess. Fewer detachments that generate less CPs for mixing Factions would be a good start
Heck even making Stratagems limited per game would help too. Maybe take the Smite approach. Add 1CP to the cost if you use a Strat a second or third time per game? Just brainstorming here
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I'm with you, the changes to stat lines, damage, AP, characters, etc. all seem to have worked out pretty well. There are two things I would change on the rules front, the to wound equation, and rerolls. Because of the nature of doubles and such it creates a lumpy distribution of ideal values that really hurts the variety of weapons. For instance whats the biggest difference between str 5 and str 7, wounding guardsmen on 2s, but str 7 weapons are more expensive. If they went back to the old system, but gave everyone gauss (6s always wound), I think we would see alot more variety in weapons. 8th ed is about 50% slower than 7th ed, and alot of that is due to the amount of rerolls available. Since doing the sane thing and reducing the points we play at is off of the menu, I feel like GW should take a hard look at rerolls as an area to streamline the game.
The worst part about 8th is there is this whole cluster of suck around CP, stratagems, detachments and soup.
If I ran the zoo,
- Codexes would still have 30+ stratagems but you would not have access to them all in a given battle.
- Instead, Before the first round, You would pick a number stratagems based on what detachments you brought, Most detachments generate 1, battalions 2, and brigades 3. Selected stratagems would have to be taken from a codex that matches all keywords of the detachment.
- CP would be generated by your commanders, per round. This would replace all of the reroll auras that are slowing down the game. Lts/chaplains/librarians would generate 1 per, captains would generate 2, chapter masters would generate 2 and give you an extra stratagem. CP could only be spent on stratagems from codexes that share all of the keywords with the unit who generated the CP, or generic stratagems like rerolls.
- There would be a cap on how many CP you can generate, which would be based on your detachments, probably twice the number of stratagems the detachment generates.
The combined effect would be to streamline the game, make soup less of a no-brainer, add a side board mechanic. It's also a fluffly change since your commander isn't telling your plebs how to shoot, and is instead formulating cunning strategies.
Though I suspect it will be a quick tidy-up edition like AoS2.0.
I was under the assumption that since 8th, we would be moving forward with an almost Living Rulebook style format.
(New editions just getting rulebook up to scratch and updated, with CA’s still coming yearly, and new Codex and campaign books still.)
So in a sense every update would be like 6th to 7th, or AoS 1 to 2, from now on..
Every time balance shifts, products shift from the warehouse. If you do it reasonably well, you can mask it as a balancing process.
The end result is that the company has more profits and the game is more enjoyable. Say what you want, but apart from the last marine incident, the game is decently balanced.
Galef wrote: I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA
A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.
-
I would say the need to add rules upon rules is enabled by the core mechanics of 8th. The actual core rules are so shallow, especially with the removal of USRs, that all GW can do is write bespoke rules for everything. I don't like it, and I get USRs have their issues, but I would really like to see more rules get put into the core rulebook and standardized for all factions.
Galef wrote: I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA
A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.
-
I would say the need to add rules upon rules is enabled by the core mechanics of 8th. The actual core rules are so shallow, especially with the removal of USRs, that all GW can do is write bespoke rules for everything. I don't like it, and I get USRs have their issues, but I would really like to see more rules get put into the core rulebook and standardized for all factions.
It would work better if they had decent unit cards for all units at time of release.
BrianDavion wrote: I expect 9th edition is going to just be a clean up edition. 8th was a big change from 3-7th and thus GW'll be needing to apply the lessons learned
Sadly I reckon you are right. 9th could be a great chance to implement some (if not all) of the rules from Apocalypse in to regular 40K.
Instead what we'll see is essentially what 4th-7th editions were. A tidy up of the core game mechanics with a few tweaks here and there. Given that 8th will be 3 years old in June 2020 it does seem plausible that GW will start the cycle of getting everyone to buy new Codexes/rulebooks again.
I think we’re more likely to see a further AoSifacation of 40k sad to say rather than any actual improvements to the game.
At this point, 'AoSifcation' would be an improvement.
Outside the lack of USRs and going ham on ridiculous special snowflake rules that can't be solved without invalidating everything outside the core book, there are only a few things they can tweak.
Primarily:
Command points and related insanity being the primary offender they could wrangle into sanity by following the AoS model.
General army construction rules, particularly focused on when you get your faction benefits, and what invalidates them, that sort of thing.
Don't defend Warfo, they are just a whole bunch of evil stupid jerkheads bad people who banned me for complaining too much about no Sisters release.
LOOK AT WHAT THE COMPLAINT GOT US WARFO! AND SHUT YOUR STUPID MOUTH!!
PA will be over in June. V9 will come soon after PA is over.
Just after Sisters finally get a new codex? FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!
The books will carry over. It’ll be like AoS 2.0.
Your bet. Not mine. My opinion on the matter is :
“Trying to guess what GW will do based on either logic, or on what GW did in the past, is like trying to headbutt the wind into a coma.”
[Vox Intercept: Yhedaris System]
'Hear this, you simpering lapdogs! You servile, dull creatures. The Illuminator is coming! Yhedaris is but the first brushstroke upon a grand canvas. He is coming, and with him comes an endless carnival of sensation!'
Addendum: Vox transmission hails from the Cathedrum of the Ashen Heart on Ortus Prime. No response along priority channels. Multiple Heretic warships sighted traversing the Cascar Nebula, on a path towards Black Mantle. Iconography matches that of the Emperor's Children, Excommunicate Traitoris.
Hopefully this means he and his lads are out in 2020, although with the sheer number of hints that have dropped over the last 2.5 years it probably means nothing
Carlovonsexron wrote: If Fulgim is coming (hard hard har!) hopefully slaangors, and human cultists for fantasy come with him!
Ever since they released the special Noise Marine I've wanted to play EC. but I look at the plastic one and the 30k kakophani and wonder why the hell havent they gotten their badassness thru to 40k yet?
I want Fulgrim with the AOS Morathi treatment. it's like a perfect fit. Plastic noise marines, Phoenix Terminators, & Palatine blades would be dope. A sonic "thunderfire" cannon would fill a cool role & sonic dreads just scream.
I think the french community is not being malicious. To be honest, we are not used to have reliable rumour mongers from our own nationality (it might even be a first). We are more used to getting leaks from the anglosphere since the Warseer era.
While Warhammer gained a lot of popularity during the past few years in France, our community is still very small and all "leaks" were published in the form of short posts on a forum. Also, you have to keep in mind that many french people are not good at all in English (it's not really the case for younger generations though) and the aforementioned forum is mainly visited by "french veterans" of Warhammer. Each time we get a leak in English, many people are asking for a translation, for example.
Also, several employees of GW were members of the forum before GW hired them (one example : the designer of the Death Guard minis and Mortation is french and he used to make incredible Nurgle conversions and post pictures on the forum ) and they are still present (although don't post much anymore for obvious reasons), thus why people are even more careful.
That's my analysis of the situation.
PS : the second guy said that C:SM is a "9th edition" Codex. Someone asked him if SoB were a 9th edition too and he said something like "If it has something akin to Combat Doctrines, then yes". That's it.
By Combat Doctrines, I think he meant "An advantage that you lose if you use soup" (= Sacred Rites for SoB).
Not to worry my French friend, it was something of a joke and the irony of moaning about not getting leaks from the French to a Frenchman who is literally giving us leaks is not lost on me
Thanks for the info, its really nice of you to share it.
Galef wrote: I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA
A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.
-
I would say the need to add rules upon rules is enabled by the core mechanics of 8th. The actual core rules are so shallow, especially with the removal of USRs, that all GW can do is write bespoke rules for everything. I don't like it, and I get USRs have their issues, but I would really like to see more rules get put into the core rulebook and standardized for all factions.
Experience shows that GW rules writers are really bad at sticking to a sensible list of universal rules. They want to add their own individual mechanics and will do so given any opportunity. Worse, the less competent ones seem more keen on doing this. A few editions ago, they had a pretty decent list of USRs, but still insisted on adding bespoke rules to units which didn't need them. If they wanted to, they could simply re-use functional rules from other units in 8th edition, but they don't. For example, the Salamanders stratagem which allows one unit to defend another could have used the rules from Grot Shields in the Ork codex, but the writer insisted on coming up with his own mess.
To add to the difficulty, the players seem to actively want this kind of nonsense. They complain when every faction uses a perfectly sensible mechanic like characters who give re-rolls to hit or wound within a radius. They want their own special mechanics.
I thought the Devastation of Baal novel already covered why the Nids attacked
Spoiler:
(the Hive mind was pissed at the BA and wanted them dead)
?
That's just a theory in the novel which some dispute, though PA3 will probably make it official. Every lore discussion online proves that one novel isn't enough.
If they Hive Mind was going to be Angery at any marines, why wouldn't they be angry at the UM? Or has it decided if it's sludgehammer Hive Fleet didn't work, might as well just ignore it?
Perfect Organism wrote: If they wanted to, they could simply re-use functional rules from other units in 8th edition, but they don't. For example, the Salamanders stratagem which allows one unit to defend another could have used the rules from Grot Shields in the Ork codex, but the writer insisted on coming up with his own mess.
In case you didn't notice, grots cost 3 points each. Space marine models cost 20-50 pts, making it utterly useless on lower end of the range, to "so stupid you're intentionally trying to lose" on the upper end. Especially seeing SM units that would logically try to shield their comrades, Terminators and Agressors, tend to be upper end of that scale. Imagine the howls of ork players if the grot shield stratagem slain whole grot unit on first failed roll - this is what you just proposed. Bravo.
In fact, the rules don't go towards bespoke anywhere near enough. Space marine bodyguards have rules copied from cheap xeno units - which makes them so useless no one takes them. Someone fired plasma or autocannon at your HQ? Bullet suddenly turns into guided cruise missile making hard turns instantly vaporizing several bodyguards, expertly dodging storm shields and force fields, making it one of the dumbest, most immersion breaking rule in the game (and it's not like GW just fears making bodyguards too good, see completely broken Tau drones...)
Your bet. Not mine. My opinion on the matter is :
“Trying to guess what GW will do based on either logic, or on what GW did in the past, is like trying to headbutt the wind into a coma.”
Well we can look at the odds. GW hard resets:
40k 3rd ed, 8th ed.
FB 6th ed, AOS
So total of 3 times for 40k and FB plus total death of entire game replaced by completely new game.
I like odds of the bet 8th ed codexes will be valid in 9th ed. How much would you be willing to put money on the line?
I thought the Devastation of Baal novel already covered why the Nids attacked?
Spoiler:
(the Hive mind was pissed at the BA and wanted them dead)
Why do I have the feeling that there is going to be some kind of McGuffin that's been hidden there this whole time
Nah it's the way they are developing the PA books for certains factions, the Phoenix Rising book was just about explainning tibdits of lore and what led to the battle of Iathglas (wich is the last entrance in the Eldar codex chronology) instead of just the small description.
I would expect the same explaining the preparations in Baal and their fight with the Tyranids there (instead of just explaining some new lore happening after the Indomitus crusade)
Galef wrote: I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA
A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.
-
I would say the need to add rules upon rules is enabled by the core mechanics of 8th. The actual core rules are so shallow, especially with the removal of USRs, that all GW can do is write bespoke rules for everything. I don't like it, and I get USRs have their issues, but I would really like to see more rules get put into the core rulebook and standardized for all factions.
USRs were never important to me. You get those on the datasheet now, and they're just the same as before, with 5+ FNP, Fly, etc. It's the removal of the more complex rules for each phase that does it for me. Without detailed rules for terrain, LoS, or morale, there's a limited amount of things they can do now.
Rules dealing with leadership like ATSKNF or +/- Ld. auras would be far more useful if morale was more debilitating than just "you lose a guy or two"
It's the same problem with the watered down movement phase. No more terrain checks or anything, so it's extremely easy for everyone to race around the table.
Nah it's the way they are developing the PA books for certains factions, the Phoenix Rising book was just about explainning tibdits of lore and what led to the battle of Iathglas (wich is the last entrance in the Eldar codex chronology) instead of just the small description.
I would expect the same explaining the preparations in Baal and their fight with the Tyranids there (instead of just explaining some new lore happening after the Indomitus crusade)
The problem with that is ofc Primaris Mephiston. Unless GW are going to retcon the novel, or the fluff for vol3 is a flashback episode?
I thought the Devastation of Baal novel already covered why the Nids attacked?
Spoiler:
(the Hive mind was pissed at the BA and wanted them dead)
Why do I have the feeling that there is going to be some kind of McGuffin that's been hidden there this whole time
Nah it's the way they are developing the PA books for certains factions, the Phoenix Rising book was just about explainning tibdits of lore and what led to the battle of Iathglas (wich is the last entrance in the Eldar codex chronology) instead of just the small description.
I would expect the same explaining the preparations in Baal and their fight with the Tyranids there (instead of just explaining some new lore happening after the Indomitus crusade)
The video flatly states otherwise. Devastation of Baal happened, this is the 'nids coming back once again, presumably for a GECK hidden on the otherwise barren system (and remember, Baal <whichever> was already completely wiped of life during DoB, by KaBanda and his khorne demons jumping up and down on the hive fleet before wandering off, so there's even less biomass available.
Got a Lictor that is a spare-one-at-a-wedding(actually thats a disturbing thought) and would like to turn it into an HQ unit if possible(he's a Kill Team leader at the mo). I've also got a few converted Genestealers with six arms, extended carapace and the tenticle chops, and need something to reflect that in 40K - they look absolute badasses!
Iracundus wrote: Adaptive Physiology system and Hivefleet traits?
Examples of Adaptive Physiology given are Carnifex with Synapse and camouflaged Tyranid Warriors.
Wonder if this is going to be like 3rd edition Codex's build a Tyranid.
I'm optimistic we will be getting some type of SM style chapter selections, always in cover and rerolling 1s would be nice. Also they've already said we are also getting a new unit of some kind, guessing from the Custodies preview and others it will most likely just a unique character model, but even that small change would be welcome.
Keep in mind were also getting new GSC rules as well, could be a good time to be a bug.
Galef wrote: I don't think the main issues with 8E have anything to do with Core Rules, but rather with the implementation of rules upon rules upon more rules, like Supplements and PA
A hypothetical 9E could easily be used to tidy up how those rules are applied while still adhering to the Core Mechinics of 8E.
-
I would say the need to add rules upon rules is enabled by the core mechanics of 8th. The actual core rules are so shallow, especially with the removal of USRs, that all GW can do is write bespoke rules for everything. I don't like it, and I get USRs have their issues, but I would really like to see more rules get put into the core rulebook and standardized for all factions.
Experience shows that GW rules writers are really bad at sticking to a sensible list of universal rules. They want to add their own individual mechanics and will do so given any opportunity. Worse, the less competent ones seem more keen on doing this. A few editions ago, they had a pretty decent list of USRs, but still insisted on adding bespoke rules to units which didn't need them. If they wanted to, they could simply re-use functional rules from other units in 8th edition, but they don't. For example, the Salamanders stratagem which allows one unit to defend another could have used the rules from Grot Shields in the Ork codex, but the writer insisted on coming up with his own mess.
To add to the difficulty, the players seem to actively want this kind of nonsense. They complain when every faction uses a perfectly sensible mechanic like characters who give re-rolls to hit or wound within a radius. They want their own special mechanics.
The reason we wanted bespoke rules back in the day was because USR's changed every edition but your individual codex could go entire editions without being updated. This made rules that were really useful in one edition trash in the next. Bespoke rules "future proofed" a codex so that your units didn't stop working as intended because GW couldn't be assed to release a dark eldar codex more than once a decade for example. USR's were terrible in this environment. A writer would give a unit something like fleet expecting it to do one thing, and 3 years later when a new edition dropped, the codex never got updated and it worked completely differently. This broke units both ways, sometimes making them useless, sometimes making them really OP. Releasing all the codexes in 8th with bespoke rules means that if GW dropped a new edition tomorrow, you could pretty radically change the rules and not break a whole lot more other than how rules interact with say the phases and turns, or if you shook up how weapon types worked.
For the first time in ages, we have the opportunity to have USR's actually work, with all the codexes actually getting a book in the same edition. But even then, I still feel like USR's aren't the best solution because individual rules let's you tweak how it works. For example your version of grot shields vs Salamanders sacrifice. Grots are 3ppm, the salamanders have to use actual marines. Maybe their mechanics shouldn't be the same. That's a debatable thing but I'm just throwing it out there as something to think about. For example, IG relying on directed orders for most buffs instead of mostly aura abilities. That works well, and let's them have unique buffs. Orks have the WAAAGH aura. Admech have stuff like daedolosus and the manipulus. If we're going to have bespoke rules, take advantage of them and make more interesting commander types. Not every leader should just be a lazy "reroll 1's" mechanic, let them do things that reflect their way of fighting.
Personally I'm fine with the bespoke rules for each codex because the way it is now, in theory, is that you can open your codex to the units data page and know everything you need from that page. This way you *shouldn't* need to open the units page, check that, then reference another book for what the rule actually does. Unfortunately GW can't format to save their lives, which leads to really dumb stuff like the IG orders or Admech canticles rules being in front of the painting section for some reason while all the other rules are after it. Not to mention unit data entries will only take up half a page with a huge chunk of blank space, but then they only include like one weapon option, while others list the whole weapon selection, but I digress.
I think I prefer bespoke rules, but I can see why others would prefer the other way.
Iracundus wrote: Adaptive Physiology system and Hivefleet traits?
Examples of Adaptive Physiology given are Carnifex with Synapse and camouflaged Tyranid Warriors.
Wonder if this is going to be like 3rd edition Codex's build a Tyranid.
I'm optimistic we will be getting some type of SM style chapter selections, always in cover and rerolling 1s would be nice. Also they've already said we are also getting a new unit of some kind, guessing from the Custodies preview and others it will most likely just a unique character model, but even that small change would be welcome.
Keep in mind were also getting new GSC rules as well, could be a good time to be a bug.
by re-roll 1s I assume you're refering to the slamanders style rule?
Color me pleasantly surprised that Tyranids are getting not just the build-your-own-subfaction system as I had hoped for, but also warlord traits, relics, AND this new adaptive physiology system to boot.
I won't mind at all if BA are 2/3 of the book if the new Nid stuff is halfway decent. It's already sounding like a lot more than just a phoned-in update.
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but 5 out of the 6 battleforces are Psychic Awakening armies (Blood Angels, Tyranids, Drukhari, Chaos and then Space Wolves vs Orks is heavily rumoured as the next one).
So that's leaves the Tau, who also have a Battleforce. Good odds they're in the box after the Space Wolves one? Or just coincidence?
Iracundus wrote: Adaptive Physiology system and Hivefleet traits?
Examples of Adaptive Physiology given are Carnifex with Synapse and camouflaged Tyranid Warriors.
Wonder if this is going to be like 3rd edition Codex's build a Tyranid.
Yeah I was pretty excited to read that- loved the 3rd ed codex you could tailor a selection of your units to your play style and add in specialist mutants - hive node in a big bunch of Gants was excellent..
This looks rather good ..
Yeah, I'm actually rather interested to see how this playes out. Certainly it already looks like more thought is being put into Nids than Craftworlds and Drukhari combined.
New stratagems are the main thing Nids need tbh, most of the current ones are so situational (much like the other early codexes). Abilities like the recent BT/CSM ones to prevent enemy units falling back could be a gamechanger.
Really curious to see how Adaptive Physiology works because it sounds like the old Mutable Genus rules from 3E. Could be really tricky to balance for matched play while still being worthwhile.
xttz wrote: New stratagems are the main thing Nids need tbh, most of the current ones are so situational (much like the other early codexes). Abilities like the recent BT/CSM ones to prevent enemy units falling back could be a gamechanger.
Really curious to see how Adaptive Physiology works because it sounds like the old Mutable Genus rules from 3E. Could be really tricky to balance for matched play while still being worthwhile.
xttz wrote: New stratagems are the main thing Nids need tbh, most of the current ones are so situational (much like the other early codexes). Abilities like the recent BT/CSM ones to prevent enemy units falling back could be a gamechanger.
Really curious to see how Adaptive Physiology works because it sounds like the old Mutable Genus rules from 3E. Could be really tricky to balance for matched play while still being worthwhile.
And new relics which we need badly
I'm hoping synapse becomes an afterthought, if we can get this and a few new relics i'd be happy, sick and tired of babysitting my Tyrants. The only thing that has a remote chance of keeping them alive in competitive games requires the use of Malanthrope.
xttz wrote: New stratagems are the main thing Nids need tbh, most of the current ones are so situational (much like the other early codexes). Abilities like the recent BT/CSM ones to prevent enemy units falling back could be a gamechanger.
Really curious to see how Adaptive Physiology works because it sounds like the old Mutable Genus rules from 3E. Could be really tricky to balance for matched play while still being worthwhile.
And new relics which we need badly
I'm hoping synapse becomes an afterthought, if we can get this and a few new relics i'd be happy, sick and tired of babysitting my Tyrants. The only thing that has a remote chance of keeping them alive in competitive games requires the use of Malanthrope.
Pretty sure the survivability of a Hive Tyrant has nothing to do with Synapse.
tneva82 wrote: How much would you be willing to put money on the line?
I just wrote “Trying to guess what GW will do based on either logic, or on what GW did in the past, is like trying to headbutt the wind into a coma.”
Does that sound like I want to bet on anything GW will do?
Iracundus wrote: Adaptive Physiology system and Hivefleet traits?
Examples of Adaptive Physiology given are Carnifex with Synapse and camouflaged Tyranid Warriors.
Wonder if this is going to be like 3rd edition Codex's build a Tyranid.
I would love that, iirc you could have gaunt leaders that were mutated to become synapse, allowing for a really pure horde army without a single big bug, that was pretty cool!
I’m really happy with how much of stuff this book seems to be giving and is possibly the only book so far worth getting. Glad my Sons of Sanguinius are getting everything to keep up with vanilla Marines and Nids are getting some cool new rule.
The old Hive Node wasn't synapse, but it did give the unit Ld10 as long as it was alive. It was a nice upgrade that didn't completely negate Leadership/morale/etc. tests.
It'll be interesting to see what Nids get. That will really set the tone of any PA book with Marines vs NotMarines.
Relics and stratagems always help but they won't be enough to make Nids competitive I don't think. Not unless they are seriously powerful. Nids definitely need a bit of extra spice from something and if Adaptive Physiology turns out to be that thing great. Its nice they're getting unique rules too, I didn't think we'd be seeing them for units not in power armour.
It will be interesting to see how things shake out for the Blood Angels here and how they compare to other marines. Assault doctrine bonus is pretty great, but it IS turn three unless they have a strat to make something count as turn 3. I do like the idea of the death company intercessors making them have that sweet +1 attack and FNP 6+. Makes Intercessors a pretty solid unit especially as flesh tearers. Gonna get CP intensive though which would be a problem. Still, Intercessors with +1 to wound, 6s add AP and 6+++ is cool.
Quasistellar wrote: Who knows, maybe there's Death Company Reivers, too? (probably not, but hey!)
Could be just a strat to upgrade any Primaris unit and the Rapid Fire strat specific to Intercessors just updated to account for Death Company as well as normal Intercessors.
How come the Flesh Tearers just get a better rule than the Blood Angels? Am I missing something or are they just better now?
Otherwise I’m pretty happy with all the stuff shown. Im not entirely sure about their Invocation of Destruction, I feel like I’d rather the re-roll hits and stuff more, but it could be pretty cool to make reivers a little more stabby.
Quasistellar wrote: Who knows, maybe there's Death Company Reivers, too? (probably not, but hey!)
The fluff bit about Primaris succumbing to Black Rage states they are equipped as Intercessors. Highly doubtful there will be Riever DC.
So they could have been Reivers when the black rage set in, but were taken and given DC painted Intercessor armour and a bolt rifle. I guess that makes sense.
It will probably a limited unit option anyway. Most likely a single-use strat to make 1 Intercessor unit DC and give then Black Rage.
I hope they actually address and focus on the Black Rage making a return... saying it was eliminated was a big thing to do fluff wise I hope they make a storyline out of it instead of just retconning as they sometime do.
Tiberius501 wrote: How come the Flesh Tearers just get a better rule than the Blood Angels? Am I missing something or are they just better now?
Otherwise I’m pretty happy with all the stuff shown. Im not entirely sure about their Invocation of Destruction, I feel like I’d rather the re-roll hits and stuff more, but it could be pretty cool to make reivers a little more stabby.
The Flesh Tearers rule replaces Red Thirst. So they dont get the +1 to wound. So the Flesh Tearers are actually worse.
I don't think they'll get a sergeant. I think it'll be 1 in 5 can take a cc weapon. I'm hoping for a troop with 5-15 men equipped as above. That would give us DC as troops again.
Tiberius501 wrote: How come the Flesh Tearers just get a better rule than the Blood Angels? Am I missing something or are they just better now?
Otherwise I’m pretty happy with all the stuff shown. Im not entirely sure about their Invocation of Destruction, I feel like I’d rather the re-roll hits and stuff more, but it could be pretty cool to make reivers a little more stabby.
The Flesh Tearers rule replaces Red Thirst. So they dont get the +1 to wound. So the Flesh Tearers are actually worse.
Yes their rule replaces Red Thirst, however if you read their rule it specifically states that they still get the +1 to wound in addition to getting -1AP on 6's to wound. I believe the reason it is inherently better is because you have to use their relics (and therefor cannot use regular BA relics) and also I do not believe you are able to use the special characters outside of Gabriel Seth, which is also a drawback.
That was at least my understanding of the successor rules.
Tiberius501 wrote: How come the Flesh Tearers just get a better rule than the Blood Angels? Am I missing something or are they just better now?
Otherwise I’m pretty happy with all the stuff shown. Im not entirely sure about their Invocation of Destruction, I feel like I’d rather the re-roll hits and stuff more, but it could be pretty cool to make reivers a little more stabby.
The Flesh Tearers rule replaces Red Thirst. So they dont get the +1 to wound. So the Flesh Tearers are actually worse.
Nah. The +1 to wound is still in there, along with the mini-rend on 6s.
That said, maybe Red Thirst also gets an improvement? +1 to wound and X? Similar to how UM, IF, White Scars, etc.. tactics all got expanded.
Tiberius501 wrote: How come the Flesh Tearers just get a better rule than the Blood Angels? Am I missing something or are they just better now?
Otherwise I’m pretty happy with all the stuff shown. Im not entirely sure about their Invocation of Destruction, I feel like I’d rather the re-roll hits and stuff more, but it could be pretty cool to make reivers a little more stabby.
The Flesh Tearers rule replaces Red Thirst. So they dont get the +1 to wound. So the Flesh Tearers are actually worse.
Yes their rule replaces Red Thirst, however if you read their rule it specifically states that they still get the +1 to wound in addition to getting -1AP on 6's to wound. I believe the reason it is inherently better is because you have to use their relics (and therefor cannot use regular BA relics) and also I do not believe you are able to use the special characters outside of Gabriel Seth, which is also a drawback.
That was at least my understanding of the successor rules.
Tiberius501 wrote: How come the Flesh Tearers just get a better rule than the Blood Angels? Am I missing something or are they just better now?
Otherwise I’m pretty happy with all the stuff shown. Im not entirely sure about their Invocation of Destruction, I feel like I’d rather the re-roll hits and stuff more, but it could be pretty cool to make reivers a little more stabby.
The Flesh Tearers rule replaces Red Thirst. So they dont get the +1 to wound. So the Flesh Tearers are actually worse.
Nah. The +1 to wound is still in there, along with the mini-rend on 6s.
That said, maybe Red Thirst also gets an improvement? +1 to wound and X? Similar to how UM, IF, White Scars, etc.. tactics all got expanded.
I missed that, thanks for pointing it out. But yeah, I would imagine Red Thirst will get a second part to it then.
Tiberius501 wrote: How come the Flesh Tearers just get a better rule than the Blood Angels? Am I missing something or are they just better now?
Otherwise I’m pretty happy with all the stuff shown. Im not entirely sure about their Invocation of Destruction, I feel like I’d rather the re-roll hits and stuff more, but it could be pretty cool to make reivers a little more stabby.
The Flesh Tearers rule replaces Red Thirst. So they dont get the +1 to wound. So the Flesh Tearers are actually worse.
They get the +1 to wound if they charge, get charged / heroically Intervenes along with the -1 Ap on 6s to wound on top of that
I wonder if BA will get veteran intercessors as well? Veteran Death Company Intercessors? Hmm... my iron hands which have been sitting in a box since the supplement might get a splash of red. Plus I'll get to dig my old metal Gabey Seth out!
MajorTom11 wrote: I hope they actually address and focus on the Black Rage making a return... saying it was eliminated was a big thing to do fluff wise I hope they make a storyline out of it instead of just retconning as they sometime do.
there's some oblique reference to it in the latest(?) Warhammer conquest text, I'll see if I can find it and take a photo of the page
so those tricksy Alpha Legion folk have a plan it looks like, I blame Alpharius it's all his fault
They are increasing the amount of dice Death Company are capable of rolling yet again?! The amount of dice to be rolled keeps increasing, while my hands are not growing any larger.
Is that book also going to be released along with the new GW Blood Angels 5 gallon dice bucket? Absolute madness. I am going to have to start bringing pizza boxes as dice trays to games along with my Blood Angels dice bucket.
MajorTom11 wrote: I hope they actually address and focus on the Black Rage making a return... saying it was eliminated was a big thing to do fluff wise I hope they make a storyline out of it instead of just retconning as they sometime do.
there's some oblique reference to it in the latest(?) Warhammer conquest text, I'll see if I can find it and take a photo of the page
so those tricksy Alpha Legion folk have a plan it looks like, I blame Alpharius it's all his fault
Ok awesome, they are weaving it in... Thanks so much for sharing that Orlando much appreciated . I wonder if they are going to turn it into something a little more like a temporary berserker range as opposed to a permanent delusional and hallucinatory mental break...
Arson Fire wrote: That thing in the background looks like a gigantic thrope or ravener with gun arms. Nothing like that currently exists. Possibly a new nid superheavy?
Look to me like an artist interpretation of a Harridan with guns on arms instead of it's wing.
StarHunter25 wrote: I wonder if BA will get veteran intercessors as well? Veteran Death Company Intercessors? Hmm... my iron hands which have been sitting in a box since the supplement might get a splash of red. Plus I'll get to dig my old metal Gabey Seth out!
proably not, death company intercessors will be the BA vetern intercessors equivilant I bet
Arson Fire wrote: That thing in the background looks like a gigantic thrope or ravener with gun arms. Nothing like that currently exists. Possibly a new nid superheavy?
Look to me like an artist interpretation of a Harridan with guns on arms instead of it's wing.
Possible. Although I'm a bit hesitant to write off stuff like this in modern GW artwork as 'artistic impressions'.
A bunch of us thought the achilles ridgerunner was an artistic take on a goliath truck when it was first teased in a video just like this one.
Arson Fire wrote: That thing in the background looks like a gigantic thrope or ravener with gun arms. Nothing like that currently exists. Possibly a new nid superheavy?
Look to me like an artist interpretation of a Harridan with guns on arms instead of it's wing.
Possible. Although I'm a bit hesitant to write off stuff like this in modern GW artwork as 'artistic impressions'.
A bunch of us thought the achilles ridgerunner was an artistic take on a goliath truck when it was first teased in a video just like this one.
However we know there’s no new Nid models with the book, and it would probably be the ideal time if it was something new.
MajorTom11 wrote: I hope they actually address and focus on the Black Rage making a return... saying it was eliminated was a big thing to do fluff wise I hope they make a storyline out of it instead of just retconning as they sometime do.
there's some oblique reference to it in the latest(?) Warhammer conquest text, I'll see if I can find it and take a photo of the page
so those tricksy Alpha Legion folk have a plan it looks like, I blame Alpharius it's all his fault
That text is word-for-word just a reprint from the 2017 Blood Angels Codex (page 25 or thereabout)
https://i.imgur.com/at8peqh.png
"As well as being noble, the Blood Angels are compliant with the Codex Astartes and have now been brought in line with their fellow Space Marines battle-brothers."
Does this mean BA Librarians get access to the Librarius Discipline?
Arson Fire wrote: That thing in the background looks like a gigantic thrope or ravener with gun arms. Nothing like that currently exists. Possibly a new nid superheavy?
Look to me like an artist interpretation of a Harridan with guns on arms instead of it's wing.
Possible. Although I'm a bit hesitant to write off stuff like this in modern GW artwork as 'artistic impressions'.
A bunch of us thought the achilles ridgerunner was an artistic take on a goliath truck when it was first teased in a video just like this one.
I think that had more to do with the art style it was presented in for the GSC release. if it is new, cool, it'll join all the other big guys in art that are not present on the table top.
If it is an actual Harridan though..... It's be the size of a plastic thunderhawk d:
Lord Damocles wrote: That image of the Storm Raven & big flying beastie is from Shield of Baal: Exterminatus, so it's about five years old now.
You know; the last time we got a Blood Angels vs. Tyranids campaign supplement.
Never bothered with it, so I never saw it. Even so, seeing the full page of art though, it much nicer to look at as a still. Also shows off the big beasts wings.
Lord Damocles wrote: That image of the Storm Raven & big flying beastie is from Shield of Baal: Exterminatus, so it's about five years old now.
You know; the last time we got a Blood Angels vs. Tyranids campaign supplement.
Fantastic story and art and loads of stuff about things OTHER than the Blood Angels - but of course only really Rules for the Blood Angels. Sounds familiar.
Lord Damocles wrote: That image of the Storm Raven & big flying beastie is from Shield of Baal: Exterminatus, so it's about five years old now.
You know; the last time we got a Blood Angels vs. Tyranids campaign supplement.
Fantastic story and art and loads of stuff about things OTHER than the Blood Angels - but of course only really Rules for the Blood Angels. Sounds familiar.
Well it would be, it was the Blood Angels half of the Shield of Baal campaign. Leviathan only had rules for Nids, including their new units like the Maleceptor and Sporocyst. Sure, the rules were largely aweful (same could have been said for the Blood Angels who spent all of 7th as a bottom tier army right next to the Nids) but it most certainly wasn't light on content for them.
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casvalremdeikun wrote: I really doubt Death Company Intercessors will be a pregame strat. It differentiation wouldn't be necessary in the Rapid Fire Stratagem if they were.
Wouldn't be the first pregame strat that changes a units keywords though, which would make the call out necessary.
Since Reivers are not assault units but black ops squads, it makes sense that you would want marines affected by black rage to be as distant from them as possible.
So i guess that indeed the only choice is to put them in Intercessor squads.
Spoletta wrote: Since Reivers are not assault units but black ops squads, it makes sense that you would want marines affected by black rage to be as distant from them as possible.
Alternately, they're terror troops, in which case you _do_ want them affected by the black rage and dismembering people with their bare hands as much as possible. Or alternately with decent weapons, but that ship has sailed.
Granted death company with bolt guns has been an option for a long time, but DC Intercessors is still a wacky concept.
But Primaris getting the black rage after all would have been better served with a Primaris CC kit (with jump packs), not just pasting over the rules/model gap with a random stratagem in a throw-away supplement.
The first Primaris to fall to a gene-flaw should have been a momentous occasion, not just a coat of black paint and applying a rules tag with a Command Point.
I'm expecting the vetern intercessors and primaris death company to be a "temporary" thing.and GW to eventually (like sometime in 5 years or more) put out primaris veteran kits, but until that happens they've gotta give us options.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: So Primaris have a Melee Squad, but rather than putting crazy Primaris into a Melee Squad, they put them into a Ranged Squad?
Yeah, not only Reivers were ignored, the primaris DC got bonus to stand-still-and-shoot gun, funnily enough. If the bonus was to assault rifles instead, which would make far more sense btw, the bonus could have applied to both Intercessor and Reiver carbines. These rules smack of laziness and lack of thought...
Sunny Side Up wrote: Similar to how UM, IF, White Scars, etc.. tactics all got expanded.
Nitpick - UM were not, sadly. They even kept -1, because IG is better drilled and can retreat in better order than SM, eh?
Tiberius501 wrote: So does this stuff make BAngels affective again? Seems like even Intercessors become melee beasts now in assault doctrine.
Turn 3 to come online is to late in 40k. Your mopping up or getting mopped up at that point.
Normally I agree, but it isn't like they get NOTHING in the first 2 turns. They'll still have the Dev & Tac doctrines to give additional -1 to AP on various weapons. And they'll probably get a strat to "skip" to the Assault Doctrine* on turn 2 BAs have always been designed to be built around melee, so they'll never be the best Marine chapter but getting Combat Doctrines put them on par with other non-top tier Chapters (which is still mid to high-mid tier)
*I forget, did White Scars and Black Templar get a similar strat?
Tiberius501 wrote: So does this stuff make BAngels affective again? Seems like even Intercessors become melee beasts now in assault doctrine.
Turn 3 to come online is to late in 40k. Your mopping up or getting mopped up at that point.
Normally I agree, but it isn't like they get NOTHING in the first 2 turns. They'll still have the Dev & Tac doctrines to give additional -1 to AP on various weapons. And they'll probably get a strat to "skip" to the Assault Doctrine* on turn 2
BAs have always been designed to be built around melee, so they'll never be the best Marine chapter but getting Combat Doctrines put them on par with other non-top tier Chapters (which is still mid to high-mid tier)
*I forget, did White Scars and Black Templar get a similar strat?
-
As a curious party, should we take this shift to mean the other "non-compliant" chapters (DA, SW) will be getting access to Doctrines as we know them? This seems to put the kebash to the theory they'd get their own version.
Tiberius501 wrote: So does this stuff make BAngels affective again? Seems like even Intercessors become melee beasts now in assault doctrine.
Turn 3 to come online is to late in 40k. Your mopping up or getting mopped up at that point.
Normally I agree, but it isn't like they get NOTHING in the first 2 turns. They'll still have the Dev & Tac doctrines to give additional -1 to AP on various weapons. And they'll probably get a strat to "skip" to the Assault Doctrine* on turn 2
BAs have always been designed to be built around melee, so they'll never be the best Marine chapter but getting Combat Doctrines put them on par with other non-top tier Chapters (which is still mid to high-mid tier)
*I forget, did White Scars and Black Templar get a similar strat?
-
As a curious party, should we take this shift to mean the other "non-compliant" chapters (DA, SW) will be getting access to Doctrines as we know them? This seems to put the kebash to the theory they'd get their own version.
What I find interesting is that the WC article previewing this mentions BAs as a "compliant" chapters. Which makes me think DAs will most certainly get Combat Doctrines + Special Doctrine of their own. Because when you take out DeathWing and RavenWing, DAs are about as codex compliant as you can get. Far more compliant than BAs
I'd guess SWs will eventually get an equivalent, but it might not be the same as Combat Doctrine. More like, Pack Hunting Rituals or something with "wolf" in the title
Jidmah wrote: Just adding a super-doctrine to DA feels like so much waste potential - they should get some massive bonus for combining two or more wings.
More likely, DA will get a doctrine that DOES NOT apply to DW/RW, but DW/RW will get their own special doctrines. And all 3 will activate while different doctrines are active. For example "Green-wing" with get the Special doc while the Dev doc is active, DW while the Tac doc is active and RW while the Assault doc is active. Basically par for the course of GW making it impossible to combine effectiveness for different sub-groups
Thats what I would like, except I'd switch Ravenwing and Deathwing. Deathwing should be in assault doctrine as they are called to battle by the Ravenwing.
bullyboy wrote: Thats what I would like, except I'd switch Ravenwing and Deathwing. Deathwing should be in assault doctrine as they are called to battle by the Ravenwing.
Actually pretty happy with this development as a DA player. I've been rebuilding my army as more Primaris-centric from scratch and this really helps me plan it out. Nothing worse than spending 60 dollars and who-knows-how-many hours painting only to find out the unit in question is completely unplayable. Or at least that's the fear. Knowing that I have a good chance of getting access to the vanilla doctrines really helps (um, hello, RW bikers? Tactical Doctrine called)
Tiberius501 wrote: Quick question for anyone who knows, and sorry if it’s a bit random, but did the French guy say Ghazghkull was getting a new model in his PA book?
Tiberius501 wrote: Quick question for anyone who knows, and sorry if it’s a bit random, but did the French guy say Ghazghkull was getting a new model in his PA book?
Yeah, French guy rumour was Ragnar and Ghazgkull for PA4. He also mentioned a SW vs Orks box set. At the rate GW are going I wouldn't be surprised if we got a teaser during the open day on Saturday.
Tiberius501 wrote: So does this stuff make BAngels affective again? Seems like even Intercessors become melee beasts now in assault doctrine.
Turn 3 to come online is to late in 40k. Your mopping up or getting mopped up at that point.
Normally I agree, but it isn't like they get NOTHING in the first 2 turns. They'll still have the Dev & Tac doctrines to give additional -1 to AP on various weapons. And they'll probably get a strat to "skip" to the Assault Doctrine* on turn 2
BAs have always been designed to be built around melee, so they'll never be the best Marine chapter but getting Combat Doctrines put them on par with other non-top tier Chapters (which is still mid to high-mid tier)
*I forget, did White Scars and Black Templar get a similar strat?
-
As a curious party, should we take this shift to mean the other "non-compliant" chapters (DA, SW) will be getting access to Doctrines as we know them? This seems to put the kebash to the theory they'd get their own version.
What I find interesting is that the WC article previewing this mentions BAs as a "compliant" chapters. Which makes me think DAs will most certainly get Combat Doctrines + Special Doctrine of their own. Because when you take out DeathWing and RavenWing, DAs are about as codex compliant as you can get. Far more compliant than BAs-
Far less, actually, though it doesn't mean anything on the table.
Reorganizing the second company as a dedicated mounted 'scout' company isn't codex compliant, and that inherently reorganizes the rest of the companies, since the codex mandates each of those companies have speeder and bike elements.
BA use the codex organization verbatim, some marines are just... 'dead' before they actually stop moving. They don't actually change the setup of the ten companies or reassign elements, they just have individual pre-battle 'casualties' sometimes that need oversight by a chaplain.
Tiberius501 wrote: Quick question for anyone who knows, and sorry if it’s a bit random, but did the French guy say Ghazghkull was getting a new model in his PA book?
Yeah, French guy rumour was Ragnar and Ghazgkull for PA4. He also mentioned a SW vs Orks box set. At the rate GW are going I wouldn't be surprised if we got a teaser during the open day on Saturday.
I hope this is true, Ghazghkull was the first character I ever bought so I’d love a redone version. Fingers crossed for open day.
Ghazzy is a bit of a tricky one to pull off because he's supposed to be a gigantic beast of an Ork but he's also supposed to be by far the most intelligent. It's a difficult juxtaposition to overcome in a model. Likely GW will go all in on the "raging, big, angry Ghaz" and less on the "raging, big, angry, intelligent Ghaz" IF there's any model.
IIRC the French guy was unsure as to whether there was a new model and if it was Ghazzy or another character.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Ghazzy is a bit of a tricky one to pull off because he's supposed to be a gigantic beast of an Ork but he's also supposed to be by far the most intelligent. It's a difficult juxtaposition to overcome in a model. Likely GW will go all in on the "raging, big, angry Ghaz" and less on the "raging, big, angry, intelligent Ghaz" IF there's any model.
IIRC the French guy was unsure as to whether there was a new model and if it was Ghazzy or another character.
For what it's worth, which is probably very little, Ghazzy has been perpetually in and out of the display cabinets at WW since last year's abysmally disappointing "Orktober". I'm not sure if he's being used as reference for a new model, it seems a little peculiar to have the plastics hidden away - that's all.
Jidmah wrote: Just adding a super-doctrine to DA feels like so much waste potential - they should get some massive bonus for combining two or more wings.
More likely, DA will get a doctrine that DOES NOT apply to DW/RW, but DW/RW will get their own special doctrines. And all 3 will activate while different doctrines are active.
For example "Green-wing" with get the Special doc while the Dev doc is active, DW while the Tac doc is active and RW while the Assault doc is active.
Basically par for the course of GW making it impossible to combine effectiveness for different sub-groups-
That would be great but I don't think it will happen at all imo. GW has been unable to give any kind of flavor to deathwing and ravenwing on the table top, except with new models. They won't try much for deathwings and ravenwings imo, unless they actually release primaris DW/RW specific units (something I don't believe in at all).
Tiberius501 wrote: So does this stuff make BAngels affective again? Seems like even Intercessors become melee beasts now in assault doctrine.
Turn 3 to come online is to late in 40k. Your mopping up or getting mopped up at that point.
Normally I agree, but it isn't like they get NOTHING in the first 2 turns. They'll still have the Dev & Tac doctrines to give additional -1 to AP on various weapons. And they'll probably get a strat to "skip" to the Assault Doctrine* on turn 2
BAs have always been designed to be built around melee, so they'll never be the best Marine chapter but getting Combat Doctrines put them on par with other non-top tier Chapters (which is still mid to high-mid tier)
*I forget, did White Scars and Black Templar get a similar strat?
-
As a curious party, should we take this shift to mean the other "non-compliant" chapters (DA, SW) will be getting access to Doctrines as we know them? This seems to put the kebash to the theory they'd get their own version.
What I find interesting is that the WC article previewing this mentions BAs as a "compliant" chapters. Which makes me think DAs will most certainly get Combat Doctrines + Special Doctrine of their own. Because when you take out DeathWing and RavenWing, DAs are about as codex compliant as you can get. Far more compliant than BAs-
Far less, actually, though it doesn't mean anything on the table.
Reorganizing the second company as a dedicated mounted 'scout' company isn't codex compliant, and that inherently reorganizes the rest of the companies, since the codex mandates each of those companies have speeder and bike elements.
BA use the codex organization verbatim, some marines are just... 'dead' before they actually stop moving. They don't actually change the setup of the ten companies or reassign elements, they just have individual pre-battle 'casualties' sometimes that need oversight by a chaplain.
Yeah on dakka there is rampant a lack of knowledge and understanding of the DA and their fluff ...
An Actual Englishman wrote: Ghazzy is a bit of a tricky one to pull off because he's supposed to be a gigantic beast of an Ork but he's also supposed to be by far the most intelligent. It's a difficult juxtaposition to overcome in a model. Likely GW will go all in on the "raging, big, angry Ghaz" and less on the "raging, big, angry, intelligent Ghaz" IF there's any model.
IIRC the French guy was unsure as to whether there was a new model and if it was Ghazzy or another character.
For what it's worth, which is probably very little, Ghazzy has been perpetually in and out of the display cabinets at WW since last year's abysmally disappointing "Orktober". I'm not sure if he's being used as reference for a new model, it seems a little peculiar to have the plastics hidden away - that's all.
It seems unlikely that they'd need the WW display model for a reference. I'm sure they can get their hands on any of a few dozen Ghazzes if they need that.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Ghazzy is a bit of a tricky one to pull off because he's supposed to be a gigantic beast of an Ork but he's also supposed to be by far the most intelligent. It's a difficult juxtaposition to overcome in a model. Likely GW will go all in on the "raging, big, angry Ghaz" and less on the "raging, big, angry, intelligent Ghaz" IF there's any model.
IIRC the French guy was unsure as to whether there was a new model and if it was Ghazzy or another character.
intelligence isn't something you can model very well yeah. Gulliman is proably the smartest mortal character with a model right now, but you'd never know he was a "super genius" if you just looked at him. he's just a "big dude with a flaming sword"
An Actual Englishman wrote: Ghazzy is a bit of a tricky one to pull off because he's supposed to be a gigantic beast of an Ork but he's also supposed to be by far the most intelligent. It's a difficult juxtaposition to overcome in a model. Likely GW will go all in on the "raging, big, angry Ghaz" and less on the "raging, big, angry, intelligent Ghaz" IF there's any model.
IIRC the French guy was unsure as to whether there was a new model and if it was Ghazzy or another character.
For what it's worth, which is probably very little, Ghazzy has been perpetually in and out of the display cabinets at WW since last year's abysmally disappointing "Orktober". I'm not sure if he's being used as reference for a new model, it seems a little peculiar to have the plastics hidden away - that's all.
It seems unlikely that they'd need the WW display model for a reference. I'm sure they can get their hands on any of a few dozen Ghazzes if they need that.
Thrakka is in many official pictures with ork models for books and WD, maybe they are taking this model for photo shootings?
casvalremdeikun wrote: I really doubt Death Company Intercessors will be a pregame strat. It differentiation wouldn't be necessary in the Rapid Fire Stratagem if they were.
Super disappointed in that nid article. Can we just confirm for adaptive physiology it looks like we need to give up our warlord traits to give *a* unit or monster a buff?
we get that and marines get doctrines and super doctrines for the whole army?
This seems decent but from the article, I gather its going to be a trait applicable to one warlord/unit. Suppose its going on Hive Guard ou tof LOS in cover 100% of the time then ?
"Buy marines or GTFO!!" Gw sales tactic keeps doing its magic...
Jokes aside I'm sure there will be some cool/useful stuff for nids in there somewhere. We will have to wait until the book is out I guess, although it's not looking to be meta shifting. Which is arguably a good thing! Build your own traits is always useful to come up with new builds.
looks like adaptive physology is ESSENTIALLY a warlord trait you can apply to ANY unit. kinda neat although weather or not it's worth taking is a question
Atroxus wrote: Super disappointed in that nid article. Can we just confirm for adaptive physiology it looks like we need to give up our warlord traits to give *a* unit or monster a buff?
we get that and marines get doctrines and super doctrines for the whole army?
Barring epic error by community team yep.
Ah well. For a moment it looked non marines might get nice stuff. Silly npc
Atroxus wrote: Super disappointed in that nid article. Can we just confirm for adaptive physiology it looks like we need to give up our warlord traits to give *a* unit or monster a buff?
we get that and marines get doctrines and super doctrines for the whole army?
Barring epic error by community team yep.
Ah well. For a moment it looked non marines might get nice stuff. Silly npc
SHUT UP NPC PLAYER #12!!! How dare you have opinions!!
Buy marines or GTFO!!!
Wellcome, nid players, to the salt trench, you have now been shown your place and gotten your table scraps, now Start digging like a good little iron warrior conscript.
I don't think that any nid player was expecting marine treatment. We got more than what chaos got. Much more. Relics,traits, Stratagems, powers and custom traits.
Spoletta wrote: I don't think that any nid player was expecting marine treatment. We got more than what chaos got. Much more. Relics,traits, Stratagems, powers and custom traits.
I'm actually quite satisfied.
+1
And we don't know what Adaptive Physiology quite does yet! It's possible (though I'm not holding my breath) that this is something that is a turn-by-turn bonus if you play all nids. Imagine getting to upgrade a unit each and every turn? Now that could be interesting!
The main thing that Tyranid players will use from this book will almost certainly be the custom traits. It wouldn't be that difficult to get better traits than the base book. But yeah, these releases look worse than even the Blood Angels that they previewed less than a week ago. A real shame too.
Darsath wrote: It wouldn't be that difficult to get better traits than the base book.
I don't know, Kraken's 3D6-pick-highest Advance rule is significantly better than getting to re-roll, and being able to fall back and charge, plus the Kraken-specific stratagem (Opportunistic Advance), are incredibly useful.
I'm highly disappointed in what Adaptive Physiology turned out to be.
That relic is already better than any Tyranid codex one except the Kraken one.
But honestly the preview is extremely lazy, compare it with the Eldar one in with they bothered to show multiple combinations with some homemade fluff for the custom trait.
Spoletta wrote: I don't think that any nid player was expecting marine treatment. We got more than what chaos got. Much more. Relics,traits, Stratagems, powers and custom traits.
I'm actually quite satisfied.
+1
And we don't know what Adaptive Physiology quite does yet! It's possible (though I'm not holding my breath) that this is something that is a turn-by-turn bonus if you play all nids. Imagine getting to upgrade a unit each and every turn? Now that could be interesting!
I don't know how you would infer that from the article. Its pretty clear that you give up your warlord trait to upgrade a unit for the length of the game. At best we can hope that maybe you update the datasheet rather than the unit so that ALL models of that get it. But give how they talked about a synaptic carnifex (singular) a few days ago I doubt thats the case.
Hoping for a strat that lets you upgrade a second unit at the least.
Spoletta wrote: I don't think that any nid player was expecting marine treatment. We got more than what chaos got. Much more. Relics,traits, Stratagems, powers and custom traits.
I'm actually quite satisfied.
I dunno Spoletta, at least some of their stuff turned out to be useful. If the rest of the book is at the level of this article, that won't be the case for us.
I'm not sure what your meta is like but from what I can tell, it's the polar opposite of Karol's as it seems like you could take GK and crush everybody you run into from your rosy perspective on everything Nids
Spoletta wrote: I don't think that any nid player was expecting marine treatment. We got more than what chaos got. Much more. Relics,traits, Stratagems, powers and custom traits.
I'm actually quite satisfied.
+1
And we don't know what Adaptive Physiology quite does yet! It's possible (though I'm not holding my breath) that this is something that is a turn-by-turn bonus if you play all nids. Imagine getting to upgrade a unit each and every turn? Now that could be interesting!
What it does? You give up warlord and trait one(1, ichi, yksi and whatever 1 is written in other languages) unit gets upgraded.
If nids are lucky there's stratagem to get more at the price of cp. If not it's 1 period
Spoletta wrote: I don't think that any nid player was expecting marine treatment. We got more than what chaos got. Much more. Relics,traits, Stratagems, powers and custom traits.
I'm actually quite satisfied.
I dunno Spoletta, at least some of their stuff turned out to be useful. If the rest of the book is at the level of this article, that won't be the case for us.
I'm not sure what your meta is like but from what I can tell, it's the polar opposite of Karol's as it seems like you could take GK and crush everybody you run into from your rosy perspective on everything Nids
My meta is unfortunatelhy highly cuttroath. The national team plays in my store, and my nids are currently taking dust, while i have fun with thousand son thematic lists.
That said, i expected stratagems, relics and traits. I got additional powers and custom traits on top of that and a new mechanic. It's the best PA treatment of a non-marine faction thus far!
The full spoiler will tell how much of this stuff will see play.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way, the adaptation influences a full unit.
Spoletta wrote: I don't think that any nid player was expecting marine treatment. We got more than what chaos got. Much more. Relics,traits, Stratagems, powers and custom traits.
I'm actually quite satisfied.
+1
And we don't know what Adaptive Physiology quite does yet! It's possible (though I'm not holding my breath) that this is something that is a turn-by-turn bonus if you play all nids. Imagine getting to upgrade a unit each and every turn? Now that could be interesting!
What it does? You give up warlord and trait one(1, ichi, yksi and whatever 1 is written in other languages) unit gets upgraded.
If nids are lucky there's stratagem to get more at the price of cp. If not it's 1 period
I think it'll be potentially useful depending what's on it. Maybe.... I dunno on a large unit of Tyranid infantry you want to dig in at a key objective.
Waits for the inveitable "You thought Codex Marines needed more stuff- well here you go - 10 pages of new rules cos otherwise we would have to fill them non Marine stuff and they ain't gonna fly.
Mr Morden wrote: Waits for the inveitable "You thought Codex Marines needed more stuff- well here you go - 10 pages of new rules cos otherwise we would have to fill them non Marine stuff and they ain't gonna fly.
Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
To be fair I kinda enjoy this situation as a xeno player: many WAACSM players are encouraged to play more often than they did. That means that there are more chances to knock'em down a peg, provided you actually know how to use your army.
I know a few hobbyists that fit this description. They played little to no 40k games in the last couple of years and suddenly they've started to be interested into the game and bought a lot of new stuff. You wouldn't be able to guess how much they are spending on new models and rules, in order to copy internet lists.
Needless to say, experience > strong units. I admit it feels good to win against them.
For the people saying they're satisfied, did we read the same article?
The article itself was super vague and didn't explain much.
The specific instances they showed were all All ALL not very good.
Leviathan gets super synapse. :/
The strat was bad
Adaptive Physiology *appears* to come instead of your Warlord Trait
Customized Hive Fleets? I don't think they really explained that... But for a faction that has pretty much one competitive build (Kraken GS Bombs) who gives a gak about BYOHF.
I'm hopeful that some of the starts and relics are useful. But the ones they showed seemed very meh.
EVERYONE GETS SOMETHING.
SHAKES THE GAME UP AS MUCH OR MORE THAN THE HORUS HERESY.
Aenar wrote: To be fair I kinda enjoy this situation as a xeno player: many WAACSM players are encouraged to play more often than they did. That means that there are more chances to knock'em down a peg, provided you actually know how to use your army.
I know a few hobbyists that fit this description. They played little to no 40k games in the last couple of years and suddenly they've started to be interested into the game and bought a lot of new stuff. You wouldn't be able to guess how much they are spending on new models and rules, in order to copy internet lists.
Needless to say, experience > strong units. I admit it feels good to win against them.
Lol better attitude than most. If your group has a good attitude and isn't full of WAAC guys, there's less of a gap than people think.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
cool story.
Hmm, that's an interesting counter-point, I'll have to think it over
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
/shrug
The Ynnari preview had a mask-less Ynnari Banshee Exarch who was supposed to "walk a different path" to his non-Ynnari cousins.
The actual book didn't have anything to go with that alternative build of the model, nor anything new really, aside from the note you couldn't use any of the new, half-assed Eldar stuff as Ynnari.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
/shrug
The Ynnari preview had a mask-less Ynnari Banshee Exarch who was supposed to "walk a different path" to his non-Ynnari cousins.
The actual book didn't have anything to go with that alternative build of the model, nor anything new really, aside from the note you couldn't use any of the new, half-assed Eldar stuff as Ynnari.
Some books end up with even less than previewed .
Definitely a fair point, all I have to counter with is that the second book it seems was a hit for all factions involved generally speaking (inb4 bUt ItS mUhRiNeS yes I know but still)
Therefore they're 1 and 1, maybe there's room for hope
bfdhud wrote: But for a faction that has pretty much one competitive build (Kraken GS Bombs) who gives a gak about BYOHF.
.
"for a faction who only has one build who cares about more options"
......... wow
options* that don't displace the one build that you can run and not get laughed off the table? Yeah, I think he's right. I get that Nids players should wait and see what we actually get, but if this preview showed the average power level of the book, there's not a lot to get jazzed about. BYOHF especially. 4+++ in Overwatch is pretty far away from what Nids actually need.
Well PA2 did give a boost to those poor Codex Space Marines who really needed a further 10 pages of rules and extra stuff as they had only recelty had a Codex and supplements
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
If you're satisfied with the bandaid thrown on the bullet wound known as Codex: Chaos Space Marines that's on you.
The rules really don't do much to be honest. Woohoo I can make more variants of Suicide Lords! Oh and Alpha Legion + Iron Warriors are still better than everyone else! Pretty great huh?
Mr Morden wrote: Well PA2 did give a boost to those poor Codex Space Marines who really needed a further 10 pages of rules and extra stuff as they had only recelty had a Codex and supplements
I was more referring to CSM there but if you want to take it that way you're more than welcome to!
bfdhud wrote: But for a faction that has pretty much one competitive build (Kraken GS Bombs) who gives a gak about BYOHF.
.
"for a faction who only has one build who cares about more options"
......... wow
What's wow about it, I think it's a fair criticism. Imagine if Iron Hands were the only competitive Marine army. Which would you rather have. The other marine factions bumped up to a more competitive state or a BYOM ruleset that may or may not change anything and will most certainly add more complexity to a game that already requires something like six books to play one army.
I would rather see them adjust the existing hive fleets to bring them up closer to Kraken. Leviathan for example, It'd be nice if that was a 5+ fnp instead of six.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
If you're satisfied with the bandaid thrown on the bullet wound known as Codex: Chaos Space Marines that's on you.
The rules really don't do much to be honest. Woohoo I can make more variants of Suicide Lords! Oh and Alpha Legion + Iron Warriors are still better than everyone else! Pretty great huh?
Idk you're welcome to your opinion, I thought by and large the new rules were both fluffy AND effective, Goonhammer did a great article on it and their conclusion was pretty much everybody got something useful.
I don't play Tyranids, nor have I ever. But this looks really mediocre. A substantial step down from some of the other previews shown previously, and certainly nothing here that would compete with the big contenders. Even the Chaos Space Marine stuff is better, and that got a resounding meh on release.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
If you're satisfied with the bandaid thrown on the bullet wound known as Codex: Chaos Space Marines that's on you.
The rules really don't do much to be honest. Woohoo I can make more variants of Suicide Lords! Oh and Alpha Legion + Iron Warriors are still better than everyone else! Pretty great huh?
Idk you're welcome to your opinion, I thought by and large the new rules were both fluffy AND effective, Goonhammer did a great article on it and their conclusion was pretty much everybody got something useful.
Sorry you're not as happy with it.
You don't fix a wooden rotting bridge by just slapping new paint on it.
Or do you?
bfdhud wrote: But for a faction that has pretty much one competitive build (Kraken GS Bombs) who gives a gak about BYOHF.
.
"for a faction who only has one build who cares about more options"
......... wow
What's wow about it, I think it's a fair criticism. Imagine if Iron Hands were the only competitive Marine army. Which would you rather have. The other marine factions bumped up to a more competitive state or a BYOM ruleset that may or may not change anything and will most certainly add more complexity to a game that already requires something like six books to play one army.
I would rather see them adjust the existing hive fleets to bring them up closer to Kraken. Leviathan for example, It'd be nice if that was a 5+ fnp instead of six.
Idk in that scenario I'd just build some hive rules that suited me and call them Leviathan. What's stopping you from doing that?
bfdhud wrote: But for a faction that has pretty much one competitive build (Kraken GS Bombs) who gives a gak about BYOHF.
.
"for a faction who only has one build who cares about more options"
......... wow
What's wow about it, I think it's a fair criticism. Imagine if Iron Hands were the only competitive Marine army. Which would you rather have. The other marine factions bumped up to a more competitive state or a BYOM ruleset that may or may not change anything and will most certainly add more complexity to a game that already requires something like six books to play one army.
I would rather see them adjust the existing hive fleets to bring them up closer to Kraken. Leviathan for example, It'd be nice if that was a 5+ fnp instead of six.
PA is about adding in new things, not errataing existing subfaction abilities. people who keep hoping for a "chapter tactics re-work" in PA are simply setting themselves up for dissapointment.
You know what would make the new Adaptations cool and thematic?
Changing them (one or both parts) at the Start of the game or mid-game for free. And including all the base line Hive Fleet adaptations in that morphable list....
Aenar wrote: To be fair I kinda enjoy this situation as a xeno player: many WAACSM players are encouraged to play more often than they did. That means that there are more chances to knock'em down a peg, provided you actually know how to use your army.
I know a few hobbyists that fit this description. They played little to no 40k games in the last couple of years and suddenly they've started to be interested into the game and bought a lot of new stuff. You wouldn't be able to guess how much they are spending on new models and rules, in order to copy internet lists.
Needless to say, experience > strong units. I admit it feels good to win against them.
Lol better attitude than most. If your group has a good attitude and isn't full of WAAC guys, there's less of a gap than people think.
Thats not quite true. I play in a super casual meta and the more my opponents come to know the nids and what they can do the more they know how to deal with them. If my opponent plays IG of any description I may as well not bother. Tying up tanks with hormies only works once.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
If you're satisfied with the bandaid thrown on the bullet wound known as Codex: Chaos Space Marines that's on you.
The rules really don't do much to be honest. Woohoo I can make more variants of Suicide Lords! Oh and Alpha Legion + Iron Warriors are still better than everyone else! Pretty great huh?
Idk you're welcome to your opinion, I thought by and large the new rules were both fluffy AND effective, Goonhammer did a great article on it and their conclusion was pretty much everybody got something useful.
Sorry you're not as happy with it.
You don't fix a wooden rotting bridge by just slapping new paint on it.
Or do you?
Idk man I don't play in a competitive group, probably just comes down to different philosophies. I'm just happy for anything that makes my army fluffier and more functional.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
If you're satisfied with the bandaid thrown on the bullet wound known as Codex: Chaos Space Marines that's on you.
The rules really don't do much to be honest. Woohoo I can make more variants of Suicide Lords! Oh and Alpha Legion + Iron Warriors are still better than everyone else! Pretty great huh?
Idk you're welcome to your opinion, I thought by and large the new rules were both fluffy AND effective, Goonhammer did a great article on it and their conclusion was pretty much everybody got something useful.
Sorry you're not as happy with it.
You don't fix a wooden rotting bridge by just slapping new paint on it.
Or do you?
Idk man I don't play in a competitive group, probably just comes down to different philosophies. I'm just happy for anything that makes my army fluffier and more functional.
I mean yeah it did give some great fluffy and variable rules.i can agree with that absolutely
But at this rate it is clear that the traits e.g. foundation is on some pillars (traits) not really workable.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
If you're satisfied with the bandaid thrown on the bullet wound known as Codex: Chaos Space Marines that's on you.
The rules really don't do much to be honest. Woohoo I can make more variants of Suicide Lords! Oh and Alpha Legion + Iron Warriors are still better than everyone else! Pretty great huh?
Idk you're welcome to your opinion, I thought by and large the new rules were both fluffy AND effective, Goonhammer did a great article on it and their conclusion was pretty much everybody got something useful.
Sorry you're not as happy with it.
You don't fix a wooden rotting bridge by just slapping new paint on it.
Or do you?
Idk man I don't play in a competitive group, probably just comes down to different philosophies. I'm just happy for anything that makes my army fluffier and more functional.
it's a matter of unrealistic expectations, people expect a total codex re-write for their armies in PA, and thats just not gonna happen. If your army needs a new codex then your army needs a new codex, and add-ons aren't going to change that.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
If you're satisfied with the bandaid thrown on the bullet wound known as Codex: Chaos Space Marines that's on you.
The rules really don't do much to be honest. Woohoo I can make more variants of Suicide Lords! Oh and Alpha Legion + Iron Warriors are still better than everyone else! Pretty great huh?
Idk you're welcome to your opinion, I thought by and large the new rules were both fluffy AND effective, Goonhammer did a great article on it and their conclusion was pretty much everybody got something useful.
Sorry you're not as happy with it.
You don't fix a wooden rotting bridge by just slapping new paint on it.
Or do you?
Idk man I don't play in a competitive group, probably just comes down to different philosophies. I'm just happy for anything that makes my army fluffier and more functional.
I mean yeah it did give some great fluffy and variable rules.i can agree with that absolutely
But at this rate it is clear that the traits e.g. foundation is on some pillars (traits) not really workable.
Yeah not compared to C:SM. I'll agree with that. CSM 1.5 was one of GW's biggest slipups in recent memory imo, no contesting that. Short of constructive feedback emails not much I can do about it, so just gonna make the best.
On the other hand, it's pretty difficult to retro-actively improve Tyranids just using additional psychic powers and custom Hive Fleet rules. They need re-building from the ground up.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
If you're satisfied with the bandaid thrown on the bullet wound known as Codex: Chaos Space Marines that's on you.
The rules really don't do much to be honest. Woohoo I can make more variants of Suicide Lords! Oh and Alpha Legion + Iron Warriors are still better than everyone else! Pretty great huh?
Idk you're welcome to your opinion, I thought by and large the new rules were both fluffy AND effective, Goonhammer did a great article on it and their conclusion was pretty much everybody got something useful.
Sorry you're not as happy with it.
You don't fix a wooden rotting bridge by just slapping new paint on it.
Or do you?
Idk man I don't play in a competitive group, probably just comes down to different philosophies. I'm just happy for anything that makes my army fluffier and more functional.
it's a matter of unrealistic expectations, people expect a total codex re-write for their armies in PA, and thats just not gonna happen. If your army needs a new codex then your army needs a new codex, and add-ons aren't going to change that.
Honestly I think that's why DABA and SW are getting these updates in the PA medium. They don't have any codexes in the near future, maybe not even this edition. Their rules are to give them a bit of a boost until something more solid is released down the road.
bfdhud wrote: But for a faction that has pretty much one competitive build (Kraken GS Bombs) who gives a gak about BYOHF.
.
"for a faction who only has one build who cares about more options"
......... wow
What's wow about it, I think it's a fair criticism. Imagine if Iron Hands were the only competitive Marine army. Which would you rather have. The other marine factions bumped up to a more competitive state or a BYOM ruleset that may or may not change anything and will most certainly add more complexity to a game that already requires something like six books to play one army.
I would rather see them adjust the existing hive fleets to bring them up closer to Kraken. Leviathan for example, It'd be nice if that was a 5+ fnp instead of six.
Idk in that scenario I'd just build some hive rules that suited me and call them Leviathan. What's stopping you from doing that?
Nothings stopping me, except that my army is painted in Leviathan colors because I actually Like Leviathan. I don't play them as Kraken or Gorgon or Kronos either. The Nids book didn't age very well and the Five fleet that I played because of fluff/colors instead of rules has one of the weaker Traits.
But that is kinda irrelevant. There is an issue with a codex when there is only 1 build that is somewhat competitive. The Nids could use a v2 codex. Several of the Xenos armies could use a v2 codex.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
If you're satisfied with the bandaid thrown on the bullet wound known as Codex: Chaos Space Marines that's on you.
The rules really don't do much to be honest. Woohoo I can make more variants of Suicide Lords! Oh and Alpha Legion + Iron Warriors are still better than everyone else! Pretty great huh?
Idk you're welcome to your opinion, I thought by and large the new rules were both fluffy AND effective, Goonhammer did a great article on it and their conclusion was pretty much everybody got something useful.
Sorry you're not as happy with it.
You don't fix a wooden rotting bridge by just slapping new paint on it.
Or do you?
Idk man I don't play in a competitive group, probably just comes down to different philosophies. I'm just happy for anything that makes my army fluffier and more functional.
it's a matter of unrealistic expectations, people expect a total codex re-write for their armies in PA, and thats just not gonna happen. If your army needs a new codex then your army needs a new codex, and add-ons aren't going to change that.
Isn't that exactly what Blood Angels are getting and Black Templars..........and Space Wolves.....ahh I guess only Marines deserve it.
bfdhud wrote: But for a faction that has pretty much one competitive build (Kraken GS Bombs) who gives a gak about BYOHF.
.
"for a faction who only has one build who cares about more options"
......... wow
What's wow about it, I think it's a fair criticism. Imagine if Iron Hands were the only competitive Marine army. Which would you rather have. The other marine factions bumped up to a more competitive state or a BYOM ruleset that may or may not change anything and will most certainly add more complexity to a game that already requires something like six books to play one army.
I would rather see them adjust the existing hive fleets to bring them up closer to Kraken. Leviathan for example, It'd be nice if that was a 5+ fnp instead of six.
Idk in that scenario I'd just build some hive rules that suited me and call them Leviathan. What's stopping you from doing that?
Nothings stopping me, except that my army is painted in Leviathan colors because I actually Like Leviathan. I don't play them as Kraken or Gorgon or Kronos either. The Nids book didn't age very well and the Five fleet that I played because of fluff/colors instead of rules has one of the weaker Traits.
But that is kinda irrelevant. There is an issue with a codex when there is only 1 build that is somewhat competitive. The Nids could use a v2 codex. Several of the Xenos armies could use a v2 codex.
No I get that, my point is, if they're releasing a BYO hive fleet option similar to what SM have, why not just build a hive fleet trait that does what you'd like it to do? Assuming the options they give you aren't universally trash this seems like the best way to have your cake and eat it too.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
If you're satisfied with the bandaid thrown on the bullet wound known as Codex: Chaos Space Marines that's on you.
The rules really don't do much to be honest. Woohoo I can make more variants of Suicide Lords! Oh and Alpha Legion + Iron Warriors are still better than everyone else! Pretty great huh?
Idk you're welcome to your opinion, I thought by and large the new rules were both fluffy AND effective, Goonhammer did a great article on it and their conclusion was pretty much everybody got something useful.
Sorry you're not as happy with it.
You don't fix a wooden rotting bridge by just slapping new paint on it.
Or do you?
Idk man I don't play in a competitive group, probably just comes down to different philosophies. I'm just happy for anything that makes my army fluffier and more functional.
it's a matter of unrealistic expectations, people expect a total codex re-write for their armies in PA, and thats just not gonna happen. If your army needs a new codex then your army needs a new codex, and add-ons aren't going to change that.
Isn't that exactly what Blood Angels are getting and Black Templars..........and Space Wolves.....ahh I guess only Marines deserve it.
bfdhud wrote: But for a faction that has pretty much one competitive build (Kraken GS Bombs) who gives a gak about BYOHF.
.
"for a faction who only has one build who cares about more options"
......... wow
What's wow about it, I think it's a fair criticism. Imagine if Iron Hands were the only competitive Marine army. Which would you rather have. The other marine factions bumped up to a more competitive state or a BYOM ruleset that may or may not change anything and will most certainly add more complexity to a game that already requires something like six books to play one army.
I would rather see them adjust the existing hive fleets to bring them up closer to Kraken. Leviathan for example, It'd be nice if that was a 5+ fnp instead of six.
PA is about adding in new things, not errataing existing subfaction abilities. people who keep hoping for a "chapter tactics re-work" in PA are simply setting themselves up for dissapointment.
I wasn't expecting a CT rewrite in PA. I haven't seen anyone in this thread really ask for it either. I'm more disappointed in the effort to introduce a new BYOHF system that no one really asked for when the existing HF's are no longer competitive and kind of suck. a CT rewrite isn't necessary to fix that. The stuff they did add (psychic powers, strats, relics, adaptations) could have been used to buff the other HF's But based on what I've seen from the preview .
The Leviathan power shown is mediocre.
the strat was mediocre
the relic was mediocre
the adaptations seem cool but at the cost of a warlord trait?? mediocre.
Hopefully the stuff not previewed is better than the stuff previewed.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
If you're satisfied with the bandaid thrown on the bullet wound known as Codex: Chaos Space Marines that's on you.
The rules really don't do much to be honest. Woohoo I can make more variants of Suicide Lords! Oh and Alpha Legion + Iron Warriors are still better than everyone else! Pretty great huh?
Idk you're welcome to your opinion, I thought by and large the new rules were both fluffy AND effective, Goonhammer did a great article on it and their conclusion was pretty much everybody got something useful.
Sorry you're not as happy with it.
You don't fix a wooden rotting bridge by just slapping new paint on it.
Or do you?
Idk man I don't play in a competitive group, probably just comes down to different philosophies. I'm just happy for anything that makes my army fluffier and more functional.
it's a matter of unrealistic expectations, people expect a total codex re-write for their armies in PA, and thats just not gonna happen. If your army needs a new codex then your army needs a new codex, and add-ons aren't going to change that.
I don't think anyone expected a codex rewrite but we know GW aren't beyond updating datasheets for units in PA. Even if they just themed it around "whee the big nid monsters have evolved" and included updates for the haruspex, maleceptor and toxicrene to make them FINALLY good enough to bring I think nid players would have been happy.
Eldarain wrote: Another clear sign the calls that Marine insanity was a herald of things to come were nonsense.
Which is a good thing. Nerf marines and we are all happy instead of starting a new arm race.
You know that's pretty much what I'm hoping now. That all non-marines get mediocre updates so there's as few broken factions as possible so that at least xenos vs xenos can be fun and then hopefully GW eventually nerfs the marines(as if...). Seems like lesser of two evils now.
Eldarain wrote: Another clear sign the calls that Marine insanity was a herald of things to come were nonsense.
Which is a good thing. Nerf marines and we are all happy instead of starting a new arm race.
You know that's pretty much what I'm hoping now. That all non-marines get mediocre updates so there's as few broken factions as possible so that at least xenos vs xenos can be fun and then hopefully GW eventually nerfs the marines(as if...). Seems like lesser of two evils now.
Pretty unlikely imo, the Sisters codex seems to be doubling down on the whole "variable army-wide abilities" theme, I just don't think we're going to really see that in the PA books. At least not to the same degree.
If people say that PA isn't supposed to be like a 2nd Codex or anything of the sort (which is fair), then those same people I would expect would be rallying to get those 2nd Codexes out as soon as Games Workshop can. No need for a repeat of the Index vs Codex issues we had at the start of the edition to be repeated.
Darsath wrote: If people say that PA isn't supposed to be like a 2nd Codex or anything of the sort (which is fair), then those same people I would expect would be rallying to get those 2nd Codexes out as soon as Games Workshop can. No need for a repeat of the Index vs Codex issues we had at the start of the edition to be repeated.
Definitely, especially given the new direction they seem to be taking army design. There's always going to be losers in an update system that goes army by army, but they absolutely should be doing their best to bring the other factions up to speed asap.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
If you're satisfied with the bandaid thrown on the bullet wound known as Codex: Chaos Space Marines that's on you.
The rules really don't do much to be honest. Woohoo I can make more variants of Suicide Lords! Oh and Alpha Legion + Iron Warriors are still better than everyone else! Pretty great huh?
Idk you're welcome to your opinion, I thought by and large the new rules were both fluffy AND effective, Goonhammer did a great article on it and their conclusion was pretty much everybody got something useful.
Sorry you're not as happy with it.
You don't fix a wooden rotting bridge by just slapping new paint on it.
Or do you?
Idk man I don't play in a competitive group, probably just comes down to different philosophies. I'm just happy for anything that makes my army fluffier and more functional.
it's a matter of unrealistic expectations, people expect a total codex re-write for their armies in PA, and thats just not gonna happen. If your army needs a new codex then your army needs a new codex, and add-ons aren't going to change that.
I know you like White Knighting for Marines, but no. I was expecting something interesting, customisable Hive Fleets could offer that, as could new Psychic Powers, Relics and this new Adaptive Physiology system. However, it doesn't look like that is what we're getting, the traits shown off so far suck worse than the standard ones without offering anything different, the relic's OK but nothing to write home about, the Stratagem is OK but requires you to have killed something already, the psychic power is flat out aweful (we already have Dominion to make a unit fearless for a turn and nobody uses because it's bad, and this is worse). Adaptive Physiology looks like a slap in the face, it seems like a return to 3rd ed's Mutable Genus but is a buff that replaces your warlord trait and only ever applies to one unit.
It's pretty clear that GW can barely make things interesting, let alone good.
Nah Man Pichu wrote: Why don't we wait until the rules are out before jumping to conclusions? The chaos stuff in the last book had super mediocre previews but when the whole set started making the rounds on the internet it was pretty clear most of the rules were pretty great.
If you're satisfied with the bandaid thrown on the bullet wound known as Codex: Chaos Space Marines that's on you.
The rules really don't do much to be honest. Woohoo I can make more variants of Suicide Lords! Oh and Alpha Legion + Iron Warriors are still better than everyone else! Pretty great huh?
Idk you're welcome to your opinion, I thought by and large the new rules were both fluffy AND effective, Goonhammer did a great article on it and their conclusion was pretty much everybody got something useful.
Sorry you're not as happy with it.
As much as I'd love to be a Debbie Downer for the sake of Devil's Advocate I have to agree. The CSM additions would be considered great and fun if we were to close our eyes and pretend C:SM never existed. Although I'm kind of glad GW overbuffed marines enough to finally shut up all the "marines are too weak and a single competitive build isn't acceptable for the most beloved of GW factions" crowd. Congrats you have just been overbuffed so people will hate you for multiple editions regardless of strength or empirical data showing how strong you actually are/were. Enjoy being Tau/Eldar.
Eldarain wrote: Another clear sign the calls that Marine insanity was a herald of things to come were nonsense.
Which is a good thing. Nerf marines and we are all happy instead of starting a new arm race.
You know that's pretty much what I'm hoping now. That all non-marines get mediocre updates so there's as few broken factions as possible so that at least xenos vs xenos can be fun and then hopefully GW eventually nerfs the marines(as if...). Seems like lesser of two evils now.
Pretty unlikely imo, the Sisters codex seems to be doubling down on the whole "variable army-wide abilities" theme, I just don't think we're going to really see that in the PA books. At least not to the same degree.
Variabl army wide abilties weren't all marines got. They got huge amount of free buffs and point drops to boot. And the level of power in SOB and SM codex is "bit" different.
Eldarain wrote: Another clear sign the calls that Marine insanity was a herald of things to come were nonsense.
Which is a good thing. Nerf marines and we are all happy instead of starting a new arm race.
You know that's pretty much what I'm hoping now. That all non-marines get mediocre updates so there's as few broken factions as possible so that at least xenos vs xenos can be fun and then hopefully GW eventually nerfs the marines(as if...). Seems like lesser of two evils now.
Pretty unlikely imo, the Sisters codex seems to be doubling down on the whole "variable army-wide abilities" theme, I just don't think we're going to really see that in the PA books. At least not to the same degree.
Variabl army wide abilties weren't all marines got. They got huge amount of free buffs and point drops to boot. And the level of power in SOB and SM codex is "bit" different.
Just saying that seems to be the design direction they're going, not comparing them pound for pound.
Eldarain wrote: Another clear sign the calls that Marine insanity was a herald of things to come were nonsense.
Which is a good thing. Nerf marines and we are all happy instead of starting a new arm race.
You know that's pretty much what I'm hoping now. That all non-marines get mediocre updates so there's as few broken factions as possible so that at least xenos vs xenos can be fun and then hopefully GW eventually nerfs the marines(as if...). Seems like lesser of two evils now.
Pretty unlikely imo, the Sisters codex seems to be doubling down on the whole "variable army-wide abilities" theme, I just don't think we're going to really see that in the PA books. At least not to the same degree.
Those two points aren't mutually exclusive though. Sisters, whilst getting an interesting update, did not get catapulted into the stratosphere to join Space Marines in being overpowered. I think that actually makes it a good update, but I'm defintiely worried that every other army will get updates that can't remotely match up to what Marines have.
Eldarain wrote: Another clear sign the calls that Marine insanity was a herald of things to come were nonsense.
Which is a good thing. Nerf marines and we are all happy instead of starting a new arm race.
You know that's pretty much what I'm hoping now. That all non-marines get mediocre updates so there's as few broken factions as possible so that at least xenos vs xenos can be fun and then hopefully GW eventually nerfs the marines(as if...). Seems like lesser of two evils now.
Pretty unlikely imo, the Sisters codex seems to be doubling down on the whole "variable army-wide abilities" theme, I just don't think we're going to really see that in the PA books. At least not to the same degree.
Those two points aren't mutually exclusive though. Sisters, whilst getting an interesting update, did not get catapulted into the stratosphere to join Space Marines in being overpowered. I think that actually makes it a good update, but I'm defintiely worried that every other army will get updates that can't remotely match up to what Marines have.
Not an invalid concern, just not one I share. My whole group basically plays a SM faction and a non-SM faction, if not multiples.
Also I'm no analyst but if the Sisters are at least competitive overall even if they're generally beaten by the flagship faction, isn't that enough?
Eldarain wrote: Another clear sign the calls that Marine insanity was a herald of things to come were nonsense.
Which is a good thing. Nerf marines and we are all happy instead of starting a new arm race.
You know that's pretty much what I'm hoping now. That all non-marines get mediocre updates so there's as few broken factions as possible so that at least xenos vs xenos can be fun and then hopefully GW eventually nerfs the marines(as if...). Seems like lesser of two evils now.
Pretty unlikely imo, the Sisters codex seems to be doubling down on the whole "variable army-wide abilities" theme, I just don't think we're going to really see that in the PA books. At least not to the same degree.
Those two points aren't mutually exclusive though. Sisters, whilst getting an interesting update, did not get catapulted into the stratosphere to join Space Marines in being overpowered. I think that actually makes it a good update, but I'm defintiely worried that every other army will get updates that can't remotely match up to what Marines have.
Not an invalid concern, just not one I share. My whole group basically plays a SM faction and a non-SM faction, if not multiples.
Also I'm no analyst but if the Sisters are at least competitive overall even if they're generally beaten by the flagship faction, isn't that enough? [/quote
Some people seem to have been expecting them to just immediately be a meta-breaking tier army.
Eldarain wrote: Another clear sign the calls that Marine insanity was a herald of things to come were nonsense.
Which is a good thing. Nerf marines and we are all happy instead of starting a new arm race.
You know that's pretty much what I'm hoping now. That all non-marines get mediocre updates so there's as few broken factions as possible so that at least xenos vs xenos can be fun and then hopefully GW eventually nerfs the marines(as if...). Seems like lesser of two evils now.
Pretty unlikely imo, the Sisters codex seems to be doubling down on the whole "variable army-wide abilities" theme, I just don't think we're going to really see that in the PA books. At least not to the same degree.
Those two points aren't mutually exclusive though. Sisters, whilst getting an interesting update, did not get catapulted into the stratosphere to join Space Marines in being overpowered. I think that actually makes it a good update, but I'm defintiely worried that every other army will get updates that can't remotely match up to what Marines have.
Not an invalid concern, just not one I share. My whole group basically plays a SM faction and a non-SM faction, if not multiples.
Also I'm no analyst but if the Sisters are at least competitive overall even if they're generally beaten by the flagship faction, isn't that enough? [/quote
Some people seem to have been expecting them to just immediately be a meta-breaking tier army.
Funny thing is games where one side is just easily roflstomping because GW can't be bothered with good balance(indeed are interested in the opposite) aren't all that interesting. When game's result is known in advance there's no real reason to even play it.
Being white knight and ridiculing others with stupid namings doesn't change it. Just makes you look silly.
tneva82 wrote: Funny thing is games where one side is just easily roflstomping because GW can't be bothered with good balance(indeed are interested in the opposite) aren't all that interesting. When game's result is known in advance there's no real reason to even play it.
Being white knight and ridiculing others with stupid namings doesn't change it. Just makes you look silly.
Just to play devil's advocate, on the other side of the coin isn't it just as silly for you to go into a forum dedicated to a game and talk about how bad and pointless the game is?
tneva82 wrote: Funny thing is games where one side is just easily roflstomping because GW can't be bothered with good balance(indeed are interested in the opposite) aren't all that interesting. When game's result is known in advance there's no real reason to even play it.
Being white knight and ridiculing others with stupid namings doesn't change it. Just makes you look silly.
Just to play devil's advocate, on the other side of the coin isn't it just as silly for you to go into a forum dedicated to a game and talk about how bad and pointless the game is?
No, the forum is for the game. That includes good and bad aspects. If they release bad stuff, people will and should complain.
If you don't like negativity and instead like putting your head in the sand, leave and join Facebook/Instagram and post on their pages for endless positivity.
My Adaptation is Hydra. It still does not affect 60% of our codex. Its only viable on 7-8 units. And now, after wasting space showing us they are not going to change the default fleet adaptations, i cant find a reason to get this book. My hive fleet will continue to have uphill struggles.
tneva82 wrote: Funny thing is games where one side is just easily roflstomping because GW can't be bothered with good balance(indeed are interested in the opposite) aren't all that interesting. When game's result is known in advance there's no real reason to even play it.
Being white knight and ridiculing others with stupid namings doesn't change it. Just makes you look silly.
Just to play devil's advocate, on the other side of the coin isn't it just as silly for you to go into a forum dedicated to a game and talk about how bad and pointless the game is?
No, the forum is for the game. That includes good and bad aspects. If they release bad stuff, people will and should complain.
If you don't like negativity and instead like putting your head in the sand, leave and join Facebook/Instagram and post on their pages for endless positivity.
I don't have a real problem with people being negative if it's warranted or at least backed up by compelling arguments, just was trying to illustrate it's pretty silly to call someone a white knight while busily being a black knight (or whatever the opposite is).
And I wouldn't call preferring constructive conversation to complaining for complaining's sake putting my head in the sand, but that's just me
tneva82 wrote: Funny thing is games where one side is just easily roflstomping because GW can't be bothered with good balance(indeed are interested in the opposite) aren't all that interesting. When game's result is known in advance there's no real reason to even play it.
Being white knight and ridiculing others with stupid namings doesn't change it. Just makes you look silly.
Just to play devil's advocate, on the other side of the coin isn't it just as silly for you to go into a forum dedicated to a game and talk about how bad and pointless the game is?
No, the forum is for the game. That includes good and bad aspects. If they release bad stuff, people will and should complain.
If you don't like negativity and instead like putting your head in the sand, leave and join Facebook/Instagram and post on their pages for endless positivity.
I don't have a real problem with people being negative if it's warranted or at least backed up by compelling arguments, just was trying to illustrate it's pretty silly to call someone a white knight while busily being a black knight (or whatever the opposite is).
The rules being released and how bland they are along with the clearly shown favoritism is the argument, and doesn't NEED any more warranting because we can all read. You choosing to ignore that is your own business but don't go claiming things that aren't true.
Eldarain wrote: Another clear sign the calls that Marine insanity was a herald of things to come were nonsense.
Which is a good thing. Nerf marines and we are all happy instead of starting a new arm race.
You know that's pretty much what I'm hoping now. That all non-marines get mediocre updates so there's as few broken factions as possible so that at least xenos vs xenos can be fun and then hopefully GW eventually nerfs the marines(as if...). Seems like lesser of two evils now.
Pretty unlikely imo, the Sisters codex seems to be doubling down on the whole "variable army-wide abilities" theme, I just don't think we're going to really see that in the PA books. At least not to the same degree.
Unless you are Blood Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves..... Ie Space Marines.
tneva82 wrote: Funny thing is games where one side is just easily roflstomping because GW can't be bothered with good balance(indeed are interested in the opposite) aren't all that interesting. When game's result is known in advance there's no real reason to even play it.
Being white knight and ridiculing others with stupid namings doesn't change it. Just makes you look silly.
Just to play devil's advocate, on the other side of the coin isn't it just as silly for you to go into a forum dedicated to a game and talk about how bad and pointless the game is?
No, the forum is for the game. That includes good and bad aspects. If they release bad stuff, people will and should complain.
If you don't like negativity and instead like putting your head in the sand, leave and join Facebook/Instagram and post on their pages for endless positivity.
I don't have a real problem with people being negative if it's warranted or at least backed up by compelling arguments, just was trying to illustrate it's pretty silly to call someone a white knight while busily being a black knight (or whatever the opposite is).
The rules being released and how bland they are along with the clearly shown favoritism is the argument, and doesn't NEED any more warranting because we can all read. You choosing to ignore that is your own business but don't go claiming things that aren't true.
I'm not saying there isn't favoritism, but a game's "goodness" or "badness" is entirely subjective, to which I'd say is a difficult thing to pin any sort of "truth" to.
I see just as many reasons to be happy with how things are as to be unhappy. Saying it tilts definitely one way or the other is silly since it's entirely based on where you're standing.
By that logic I think it's fair to call someone a hypocrite for calling someone a white knight apologist for being happy with how things are going while believing your own subjective opinion to be the "truth".
Eldarain wrote: Another clear sign the calls that Marine insanity was a herald of things to come were nonsense.
Which is a good thing. Nerf marines and we are all happy instead of starting a new arm race.
You know that's pretty much what I'm hoping now. That all non-marines get mediocre updates so there's as few broken factions as possible so that at least xenos vs xenos can be fun and then hopefully GW eventually nerfs the marines(as if...). Seems like lesser of two evils now.
Pretty unlikely imo, the Sisters codex seems to be doubling down on the whole "variable army-wide abilities" theme, I just don't think we're going to really see that in the PA books. At least not to the same degree.
Unless you are Blood Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves..... Ie Space Marines.
tneva82 wrote: Funny thing is games where one side is just easily roflstomping because GW can't be bothered with good balance(indeed are interested in the opposite) aren't all that interesting. When game's result is known in advance there's no real reason to even play it.
Being white knight and ridiculing others with stupid namings doesn't change it. Just makes you look silly.
Just to play devil's advocate, on the other side of the coin isn't it just as silly for you to go into a forum dedicated to a game and talk about how bad and pointless the game is?
No, the forum is for the game. That includes good and bad aspects. If they release bad stuff, people will and should complain.
If you don't like negativity and instead like putting your head in the sand, leave and join Facebook/Instagram and post on their pages for endless positivity.
I don't have a real problem with people being negative if it's warranted or at least backed up by compelling arguments, just was trying to illustrate it's pretty silly to call someone a white knight while busily being a black knight (or whatever the opposite is).
The rules being released and how bland they are along with the clearly shown favoritism is the argument, and doesn't NEED any more warranting because we can all read. You choosing to ignore that is your own business but don't go claiming things that aren't true.
I'm not saying there isn't favoritism, but a game's "goodness" or "badness" is entirely subjective, to which I'd say is a difficult thing to pin any sort of "truth" to.
I see just as many reasons to be happy with how things are as to be unhappy. Saying it tilts definitely one way or the other is silly since it's entirely based on where you're standing.
Well that puts you in the minority then. As someone that plays 3 armies that have all had a recent opportunity to get changed up in some meaningful way completely ignred by GW, I don't have reasons to be too happy with where the game is.
tneva82 wrote: Funny thing is games where one side is just easily roflstomping because GW can't be bothered with good balance(indeed are interested in the opposite) aren't all that interesting. When game's result is known in advance there's no real reason to even play it.
Being white knight and ridiculing others with stupid namings doesn't change it. Just makes you look silly.
Just to play devil's advocate, on the other side of the coin isn't it just as silly for you to go into a forum dedicated to a game and talk about how bad and pointless the game is?
No, the forum is for the game. That includes good and bad aspects. If they release bad stuff, people will and should complain.
If you don't like negativity and instead like putting your head in the sand, leave and join Facebook/Instagram and post on their pages for endless positivity.
I don't have a real problem with people being negative if it's warranted or at least backed up by compelling arguments, just was trying to illustrate it's pretty silly to call someone a white knight while busily being a black knight (or whatever the opposite is).
The rules being released and how bland they are along with the clearly shown favoritism is the argument, and doesn't NEED any more warranting because we can all read. You choosing to ignore that is your own business but don't go claiming things that aren't true.
I'm not saying there isn't favoritism, but a game's "goodness" or "badness" is entirely subjective, to which I'd say is a difficult thing to pin any sort of "truth" to.
I see just as many reasons to be happy with how things are as to be unhappy. Saying it tilts definitely one way or the other is silly since it's entirely based on where you're standing.
Well that puts you in the minority then. As someone that plays 3 armies that have all had a recent opportunity to get changed up in some meaningful way completely ignred by GW, I don't have reasons to be too happy with where the game is.
I don't know that you can claim that definitively but I can see why you'd think so based on posters here
I am sorry it feels that way for you. It's gotta be pretty frustrating.
I think its more "It not buffed up any where close to being on the same level as the buffed Marine Codex, so its trash." Which is a true enough statement.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I think its more "It not buffed up any where close to being on the same level as the buffed Marine Codex, so its trash." Which is a true enough statement.
I mean kinda sad how the adaptations got handled.
But atleast you can now build a hivefleet with basetraits that work.
Regardless at this Point it's just stupid.
On one had yes.
On the other hand 'eh'. There's more than one game mode/mission to this and we're working from preview one that shows off 1 or 2 bits from each of the 4(?) rules extensions that are coming for a single faction. I'd call that a good thing, even if we wont know details until the weekend/next week at the earliest. Then there's also the Open Day on Saturday too. Y'know in most games that would be cause for general good will or happiness....
But because it's not invalidating Iron Hands/Marines it's all trash. Gotcha.
BroodSpawn wrote: On one had yes.
On the other hand 'eh'. There's more than one game mode/mission to this and we're working from preview one that shows off 1 or 2 bits from each of the 4(?) rules extensions that are coming for a single faction. I'd call that a good thing, even if we wont know details until the weekend/next week at the earliest. Then there's also the Open Day on Saturday too. Y'know in most games that would be cause for general good will or happiness....
But because it's not invalidating Iron Hands/Marines it's all trash. Gotcha.
BroodSpawn wrote: Tl;DR - it's not overbuffed over the buff of Codex Marines and so is trash?
Does that some it up?
Sum* it up. And no. Not even close.
TLDR - Yet again the None-Marine rules seem to pale in comparison to the Marine rules, both in terms of complexity, fun, flexibility and the increase in power. This is not normal, should not continue and is very toxic for the game and community.
I'd like BTW to make a prediction that 'nids are going to have a strat that allows them to purchase extra adaptions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BroodSpawn wrote: Tl;DR - it's not overbuffed over the buff of Codex Marines and so is trash?
Does that some it up?
that EXACTLY SUMS IT UP. people claim they want a balanced game but then their faction gets an update and it's not brokingly OP they complain about it. doesn't matter what armies on top, eldar, necrons, space marines etc. people demand their army to be the best one.
BrianDavion wrote: I'd like BTW to make a prediction that 'nids are going to have a strat that allows them to purchase extra adaptions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BroodSpawn wrote: Tl;DR - it's not overbuffed over the buff of Codex Marines and so is trash?
Does that some it up?
that EXACTLY SUMS IT UP. people claim they want a balanced game but then their faction gets an update and it's not brokingly OP they complain about it. doesn't matter what armies on top, eldar, necrons, space marines etc. people demand their army to be the best one.
Well, I think if they were crying "nerf Space Marines" you'd probably have a problem with that too. I assume you believe things are fine as is if so?
BrianDavion wrote: that EXACTLY SUMS IT UP. people claim they want a balanced game but then their faction gets an update and it's not brokingly OP they complain about it. doesn't matter what armies on top, eldar, necrons, space marines etc. people demand their army to be the best one.
We don't want to be 'the best'. We want to be balanced. Right now with our 30% competitive win rate (the lowest of any faction in the game) we are nowhere close to that.
That means we want updates that are improvements, no strings attached. Things like Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault, or Doctrines.
Not sidegrade options, like alternative subfactions, that require sacrificing what we already have.
BrianDavion wrote: I'd like BTW to make a prediction that 'nids are going to have a strat that allows them to purchase extra adaptions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BroodSpawn wrote: Tl;DR - it's not overbuffed over the buff of Codex Marines and so is trash?
Does that some it up?
that EXACTLY SUMS IT UP. people claim they want a balanced game but then their faction gets an update and it's not brokingly OP they complain about it. doesn't matter what armies on top, eldar, necrons, space marines etc. people demand their army to be the best one.
Or maybe.. just maybe... people demand everyone gets treated the same and there's an even playing field?
Could be wrong.
My money is on the tears/salt when the next <insert faction name > Codex knocks the SM power lever out the ball park with broken ass gak rules diarrhoea and makes SM look like a WD gimmck article…
No no, current Marines are definitely a problem. Not saying they're not.
I'm just trying to understand the rampant and constant negativity when something that, if codex Marines wasn't factored into the discussion, is a positive.
I'd love to see them put major pt increases on SM. It's about the only sensible way to balance things, but that requires some element of an iterative process and is also going by the 'do we know what that book is balanced against' question which, at this point, we don't.
But that's tangential to the reveals. Stuff looks dope to me.
BroodSpawn wrote: No no, current Marines are definitely a problem. Not saying they're not.
I'm just trying to understand the rampant and constant negativity when something that, if codex Marines wasn't factored into the discussion, is a positive.
I'd love to see them put major pt increases on SM. It's about the only sensible way to balance things, but that requires some element of an iterative process and is also going by the 'do we know what that book is balanced against' question which, at this point, we don't.
But that's tangential to the reveals. Stuff looks dope to me.
I will say, it becomes harder to judge books against non-Marine books as time passes on. Space Marines take up a lot of the meta, and are also the most played faction in the game ontop of being the best, that it skews what everyone is running and building their lists to defeat. I hope Games Workshop aren't planning on waiting 'till March for a fix, since several books will have come and gone by then that could have had a much better impression without the comparison to new Marines.
BroodSpawn wrote: I'm just trying to understand the rampant and constant negativity when something that, if codex Marines wasn't factored into the discussion, is a positive.
Completely ignore codex SM, and this still isn't enough. It's nice to have options, but we already have a solid subfaction (Kraken), and a host of good stratagems to spend CP on. Adaptive Physiology was looking like it could have been a doctrine-esque system to provide a flat power boost to the army, and it turns out that's not the case.
Now factor in that BA are getting a massive update, including a bunch of exactly the sorts of rules that Tyranids need, in the same book, when they already have a higher win rate... Yeah, I'm a little salty about it. Maybe CA will help us out with points drops, but I'm not optimistic.
BrianDavion wrote: that EXACTLY SUMS IT UP. people claim they want a balanced game but then their faction gets an update and it's not brokingly OP they complain about it. doesn't matter what armies on top, eldar, necrons, space marines etc. people demand their army to be the best one.
We don't want to be 'the best'. We want to be balanced. Right now with our 30% competitive win rate (the lowest of any faction in the game) we are nowhere close to that.
That means we want updates that are improvements, no strings attached. Things like Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault, or Doctrines.
Not sidegrade options, like alternative subfactions, that require sacrificing what we already have.
This really isn't complicated.
Atleast tyranids still have a winrate Can't say that about my R&H
Not Online!!! wrote: Atleast tyranids still have a winrate Can't say that about my R&H
My R&H are played exclusively as AM for the time being, and my Death Korps are staying on the shelf, so believe me, I understand your pain.
Oh i know,i visit your painting thread,but i just wanted to contextualise that there are factions that don't even show up with a rate and then the contrast of the somewhat closer factions crowned by our ih and if overlords.
Eldarain wrote: Another clear sign the calls that Marine insanity was a herald of things to come were nonsense.
Which is a good thing. Nerf marines and we are all happy instead of starting a new arm race.
You know that's pretty much what I'm hoping now. That all non-marines get mediocre updates so there's as few broken factions as possible so that at least xenos vs xenos can be fun and then hopefully GW eventually nerfs the marines(as if...). Seems like lesser of two evils now.
Sure, everyone can just avoid playing marines.
Oh shoot that's like 60% of the codexes and players now isn't it?
This is like if mid 7th happened but every player already had a scatter bike and wk army.
Probably going to ramble a bit, might not make sense.
While I don't think the new rules we have seen look good .. I can say for certain they look boring. The Adaptations for fleets are the same system as Chapter Tactics, and while using that as a springboard is fine, it doesn't feel thematic. I'd rather he ability to change my entire tactic (or change part of it even since most/nearly all are two parts) for free mid game, or even at a cost of CP.
The Adaptive Phis is a really cool idea, and if we had the ability to use it on multiple squads before the game (3-5 slots of use?) or even be able to do it to all of our units for a points cost (harken back to general biomorphs), it could really make it even more flavorful. Trading a warlord trait for one unit getting a buff is... Completely meh. It doesn't feel fluffy to me when one unit changes but the rest all stay the same, even though the swarm is supposed to adapt.
Then we have the Hive Fleet specific powers... Which boggles my mind. Why are they specific to Hive fleets? I could see there being some that are specific to Kronos, because they're highly developed for Anti-Warp shenanigans, and specialize in it.
The Leviathan one is also useless in almost every situation I can imagine. If it extended the range for Leviathan's FnP for units near Synapse creatures, I could see it's use. But as of right now, if that is the standard, I'm just going to keep taking Catalyst, Psychic Scream, Onslaught, and maybe on of the other three depending on what my list has.
It just leaves a bad taste on top of a bad taste in my mouth after being burnt out on comp games locally, with Marines arriving like a frieght train. Moving to more casual and narrative games, I want the rules to better reflect the army's backstory, something the current ones still struggle with and these look like a weak shuffling in the direction of.
I'm not mad, no, but I am disappointed with what has been shown. I will reserve full judgement until it's released, but I'm not preordering it, or buying it Day 1 until I feel it's WORTH the cost of one of these books. Which is another issues itself that isn't suited for this topic.
About 20% of the players, which is a huge problem as there are more than 5 factions.
Prior to the updated codex they were about 4% for reference, that's a 500% increase in players.
The problem is now that they are OP undercoated gak every other faction will be non competitive.
Not everyone plays competitive but when your faction loses by almost default unless you okay the one decent build your faction might have and roll well, it's bad for the game.
So unless everyone else becomes OP, or has deep drastic points cuts so that Marines are actually paying a premium for their bonus layers of rules the game overall will have problems and suffer.
BrianDavion wrote: I'd like BTW to make a prediction that 'nids are going to have a strat that allows them to purchase extra adaptions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BroodSpawn wrote: Tl;DR - it's not overbuffed over the buff of Codex Marines and so is trash?
Does that some it up?
that EXACTLY SUMS IT UP. people claim they want a balanced game but then their faction gets an update and it's not brokingly OP they complain about it. doesn't matter what armies on top, eldar, necrons, space marines etc. people demand their army to be the best one.
C'mon Brian. You've been a constant participant in these threads and are clearly a sharp individual.
No one is calling for that. We want to be in the vicinity of C:SM. It would be good for everyone. Marines cease to be a problem if everyone gets updates that put them at least near Marines in effectiveness.
The worst part is PA is the exact right vehicle to do this in an expedient manner. Instead it's throwing crumbs to non Loyalist factions in the same books it's giving the full Marine level update too. It's a horrible recipe for community frustration and eventually apathy.
BroodSpawn wrote: No no, current Marines are definitely a problem. Not saying they're not.
I'm just trying to understand the rampant and constant negativity when something that, if codex Marines wasn't factored into the discussion, is a positive.
I'd love to see them put major pt increases on SM. It's about the only sensible way to balance things, but that requires some element of an iterative process and is also going by the 'do we know what that book is balanced against' question which, at this point, we don't.
But that's tangential to the reveals. Stuff looks dope to me.
I think a large part of the problem is the way GW gives with one hand but takes away with the other....except for Marines. Take for example the hive fleet adaptations, it’s like GW are saying; “here you go guys - potentially powerful, fun, fluffy rules but of course if you want to take them you’ll have to drop your warlord trait! Couldn’t give you both now, could we? Who do you think you are? Marines? Hahahahahaha no. Now be thankful for anything NPC race #4.”
Then stranger still people defend this stupidity. Yea the rules could be interesting. They don’t look it from what we’ve seen. They certainly don’t look powerful. Worse they don’t look as interesting, fun or powerful as the Marine faction’s rules in the same book, which just shows how, not only out of touch, but also biased GW are to their poster boys. It’s becoming ridiculous to the point of insulting for anyone who doesn’t play Marines to continue to support GW when they know damn well they’re second fiddle.
Carnikang wrote: Probably going to ramble a bit, might not make sense.
While I don't think the new rules we have seen look good .. I can say for certain they look boring. The Adaptations for fleets are the same system as Chapter Tactics, and while using that as a springboard is fine, it doesn't feel thematic. I'd rather he ability to change my entire tactic (or change part of it even since most/nearly all are two parts) for free mid game, or even at a cost of CP.
The Adaptive Phis is a really cool idea, and if we had the ability to use it on multiple squads before the game (3-5 slots of use?) or even be able to do it to all of our units for a points cost (harken back to general biomorphs), it could really make it even more flavorful. Trading a warlord trait for one unit getting a buff is... Completely meh. It doesn't feel fluffy to me when one unit changes but the rest all stay the same, even though the swarm is supposed to adapt.
Then we have the Hive Fleet specific powers... Which boggles my mind. Why are they specific to Hive fleets? I could see there being some that are specific to Kronos, because they're highly developed for Anti-Warp shenanigans, and specialize in it.
The Leviathan one is also useless in almost every situation I can imagine. If it extended the range for Leviathan's FnP for units near Synapse creatures, I could see it's use. But as of right now, if that is the standard, I'm just going to keep taking Catalyst, Psychic Scream, Onslaught, and maybe on of the other three depending on what my list has.
It just leaves a bad taste on top of a bad taste in my mouth after being burnt out on comp games locally, with Marines arriving like a frieght train. Moving to more casual and narrative games, I want the rules to better reflect the army's backstory, something the current ones still struggle with and these look like a weak shuffling in the direction of.
I'm not mad, no, but I am disappointed with what has been shown. I will reserve full judgement until it's released, but I'm not preordering it, or buying it Day 1 until I feel it's WORTH the cost of one of these books. Which is another issues itself that isn't suited for this topic.
I'd be willing to bet money you'll be able to buy more adaptive Phi's with command points, it'd make a LOT more sense if you could.
They're still losing out on their Warlord Trait to give one unit, and then pay for more units to have a watered down form of Doctrines and Super Doctrines, which Marines get with out having to spend CP on, or lose a WLT to get.
What worries me is thst is the Preview, allegedly the juicy part of the book. Think what fething pile of stinking gak the rest of the book is..
I played nids thru whole 7th, losing hundreds of games because I refused to play 6 flyrant. Nids have such a great and beautiful range of models with such poor rules..
This fethers from GW really want to push that space Marines gak up to the brink once again. Why the feth they had to power creep the gak out of them? Why???
Carnikang wrote: Probably going to ramble a bit, might not make sense.
While I don't think the new rules we have seen look good .. I can say for certain they look boring. The Adaptations for fleets are the same system as Chapter Tactics, and while using that as a springboard is fine, it doesn't feel thematic. I'd rather he ability to change my entire tactic (or change part of it even since most/nearly all are two parts) for free mid game, or even at a cost of CP.
The Adaptive Phis is a really cool idea, and if we had the ability to use it on multiple squads before the game (3-5 slots of use?) or even be able to do it to all of our units for a points cost (harken back to general biomorphs), it could really make it even more flavorful. Trading a warlord trait for one unit getting a buff is... Completely meh. It doesn't feel fluffy to me when one unit changes but the rest all stay the same, even though the swarm is supposed to adapt.
Then we have the Hive Fleet specific powers... Which boggles my mind. Why are they specific to Hive fleets? I could see there being some that are specific to Kronos, because they're highly developed for Anti-Warp shenanigans, and specialize in it.
The Leviathan one is also useless in almost every situation I can imagine. If it extended the range for Leviathan's FnP for units near Synapse creatures, I could see it's use. But as of right now, if that is the standard, I'm just going to keep taking Catalyst, Psychic Scream, Onslaught, and maybe on of the other three depending on what my list has.
It just leaves a bad taste on top of a bad taste in my mouth after being burnt out on comp games locally, with Marines arriving like a frieght train. Moving to more casual and narrative games, I want the rules to better reflect the army's backstory, something the current ones still struggle with and these look like a weak shuffling in the direction of.
I'm not mad, no, but I am disappointed with what has been shown. I will reserve full judgement until it's released, but I'm not preordering it, or buying it Day 1 until I feel it's WORTH the cost of one of these books. Which is another issues itself that isn't suited for this topic.
I'd be willing to bet money you'll be able to buy more adaptive Phi's with command points, it'd make a LOT more sense if you could.
They probably will. Do you think that makes it a good system, given that you have to give up a completely separate ability unlike pretty much every other faction in the game?
Emicrania wrote: What worries me is thst is the Preview, allegedly the juicy part of the book. Think what fething pile of stinking gak the rest of the book is..
I played nids thru whole 7th, losing hundreds of games because I refused to play 6 flyrant. Nids have such a great and beautiful range of models with such poor rules..
This fethers from GW really want to push that space Marines gak up to the brink once again. Why the feth they had to power creep the gak out of them? Why???
I just do not understand why this is the case. They're arguably the most unique and cool army in the game next to sisters and dark eldar (IMO)
Nids literally have poison blood, so I have often argue that they should do an AP- wound when they die to anything not-friendly within 3 inches. You could beef it up to AP-1/AP-2 for the biggest and baddest models out there.
Fun. Fluffy. Thematic. Cool.
Tyranid warriors are supposed to be apex predators, that can adapt on the fly. But, they have no rules (Think doctrines but only for the warrior brood, maybe; Assault/Destroyer/Hunt; Advance and shoot (no penalty) this turn. Reroll 1's to hit and wound, if stand still. Drawing a blank for hunt at the moment, but you get the idea.)
I kinda wish every army had a "Miracle dice" like mechanic.
Exactly. They should have adaptable rules before the game begins. Choosing your chapter tactics before the deployment starts for example. Or give a couple units a different rule, like +1 cover save if you know you're fighting shooty armies. The Hive Mind is fully adaptable and builds it's bugs on the go to fight exactly what it's facing. GW missed so many thematic rules, it's no longer funny.
It took litteraly minutes from 2 random guys from Dakka in order to have better idea of mechanics than the GW game designers in months.
Lazy work or gakky writers?
Everyone complaining about why isn't it like the marine codex these books are not codexes you will have to wait for your codex to get more. These books are basically hold over till 9th sucks that marines got it first but that's just how it is you'll have to wait.
The nid stuff looks good to me a 4+overwatch fnp is a auto-include for me then I get to pick another from however big the list is.
nagash42 wrote: Everyone complaining about why isn't it like the marine codex these books are not codexes you will have to wait for your codex to get more. These books are basically hold over till 9th sucks that marines got it first but that's just how it is you'll have to wait.
The nid stuff looks good to me a 4+overwatch fnp is a auto-include for me then I get to pick another from however big the list is.
Yet Black Templars, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels are getting it in PA. They have always been developed separately from the main book yet this time GW is blatantly developing all Marines on a level completely out of line with all other factions. It is absurd.
BrianDavion wrote: I'd like BTW to make a prediction that 'nids are going to have a strat that allows them to purchase extra adaptions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BroodSpawn wrote: Tl;DR - it's not overbuffed over the buff of Codex Marines and so is trash?
Does that some it up?
that EXACTLY SUMS IT UP. people claim they want a balanced game but then their faction gets an update and it's not brokingly OP they complain about it. doesn't matter what armies on top, eldar, necrons, space marines etc. people demand their army to be the best one.
I'll offer you another possibility. The marine supliments, PA marine stuff shows that GW can make good interesting rules. Then you look at the rules that were put forward in this latest community post. They're no where near as interesting, no where near as useful, no where near the quality of the marine rules.
So we're not complaining because Tyranids aren't a top tier army. We're complaining because GW has the ability to write good rules and those jackasses just didn't bother. Our Codex is arguably low tier, it does very much need an update. With PAGW had the ability to give us rules that would be a stop gap until the next codex release.
But instead we got mediocrity. So we're not mad our army isn't the new hotness, we're mad because GW has apparently thrown us table scraps and ya'll expect us to be happy for it.
edit: I wonder how many of the marine players telling us to STFU and be happy were 'happy" when Knights were running the Meta. Also the poster who said Brian is a Marine white knight is 100% right.
I think that no matter what actually happens when this book releases, even if it turns out to be utterly game breaking and Nids somehow end up on top, all the complaining and grumbling is still rightly deserved due to just how terrible this article actually was.
These Warhammer Community posts are supposed to generate hype and get people excited for the release, not show off barely mediocre rules that only serve to piss people off.
A couple things. 1: 4+++ in overwatch isn't going to do anything for Nids. One, it has to overcome Kraken (nope). 2: Does it revolutionize any good units? Nope. Goodie, my 'Stealers unit that didn't get Catalyst has an FNP. Okay, they're still going to get gunned down. 3: Does it fix any bad units? Nope. My other melee specialists (MCs, Lictors, Warriors, etc. etc.) still either don't have enough attacks or hit on 4s. Maybe survive overwatch but they hit like the opposite of a Tyranid freight train.
Maybe this book will have some good stuff. But unless it's a specially tailored stratagem, it'll be a "rich get richer" type deal, just like with Eldar and Crimson Hunter Exarchs. And GW showed that didn't have to be the case with the Marines codex. So yeah, that's pretty up. Not only do those gakholes get better rules overall, they also got some internal codex balance. And Xenos are sorely lacking that, and GW won't give it to us in PA. So why the hell should I buy this book? And I say this as somebody who has spent an inordinate amount of money on GW crud. Well, Crud(dace), maybe you won't get any more until you fix your screwed up system.
Trading the warlord trait for the bonus is perfectly in line with what chaos got, or do you think that they get demon weapons in addition to relics?
Seriously, i understand that right now everyone is blinded by the OPness of marines and wants his faction to get on the same level, but it would be a huge mistake for the game. The right course of action right now is to just reduce the power level of marines, not to increase everyone to that level.
If i look at the tyranids in the light of this update and ask myself, "Do i see myself able to go toe to toe with the new sisters, chaos after the disco nerf, CWE after the airwing nerf, necrons post buff and in general every non marine faction out there?" i'm quite confident that i could have some quite intereseting games and have a fair chance at winning without even having to rely on the GS bomb. It is just Tau that i think would give me big problems, but we have not had any CA spoilers on them.
Actually, if you take the marines out of the picture for a moment, the game has never been so balanced. So everyone asking for all factions to be brought up instead of marines being brought down, is not driving the game in a good direction.
The solution would be easy IMHO. Make the marine supplements, actual supplements. So if you get your super doctrine, you lose the AP-1 on that phase. If you get the specific stratagems you lose the generic stratagems, same for relics traits and powers.
Make it so that no matter if you go codex only or codex + supplement, you have the same amount of effects in play and number of choices. Supplements should be optional.
PA supplements right now have been greatly designed for non-marines, they always offer lateral choices. If there are new mechanics like demon weapons and byo adaptations, they come at the cost of something you had. This is the correct way to make a supplement.
Spoletta wrote: Trading the warlord trait for the bonus is perfectly in line with what chaos got, or do you think that they get demon weapons in addition to relics?
Seriously, i understand that right now everyone is blinded by the OPness of marines and wants his faction to get on the same level, but it would be a huge mistake for the game. The right course of action right now is to just reduce the power level of marines, not to increase everyone to that level.
If i look at the tyranids in the light of this update and ask myself, "Do i see myself able to go toe to toe with the new sisters, chaos after the disco nerf, CWE after the airwing nerf, necrons post buff and in general every non marine faction out there?" i'm quite confident that i could have some quite intereseting games and have a fair chance at winning without even having to rely on the GS bomb. It is just Tau that i think would give me big problems, but we have not had any CA spoilers on them.
Actually, if you take the marines out of the picture for a moment, the game has never been so balanced. So everyone asking for all factions to be brought up instead of marines being brought down, is not driving the game in a good direction.
The solution would be easy IMHO. Make the marine supplements, actual supplements. So if you get your super doctrine, you lose the AP-1 on that phase. If you get the specific stratagems you lose the generic stratagems, same for relics traits and powers.
Make it so that no matter if you go codex only or codex + supplement, you have the same amount of effects in play and number of choices. Supplements should be optional.
PA supplements right now have been greatly designed for non-marines, they always offer lateral choices. If there are new mechanics like demon weapons and byo adaptations, they come at the cost of something you had. This is the correct way to make a supplement.
Keep running your Thousand Sons Spoletta, this is a bad take. A) The Nids Adaptation isn't comparable to Chaos Daemon Weapons because we don't get a free WLT like other factions get extra relic strats. Maybe we end up doing so, and yeah, our WLTs suck. But you can't just get new ones and throw anything away. B) You really think our gak is comparable with other factions? Because there's no tournament evidence of that, and very, very little anecdotal evidence either (as you said, you shelved your Nids yourself). What puts us on the level of the other mid-tier guys?
nagash42 wrote: Everyone complaining about why isn't it like the marine codex these books are not codexes you will have to wait for your codex to get more. These books are basically hold over till 9th sucks that marines got it first but that's just how it is you'll have to wait.
The nid stuff looks good to me a 4+overwatch fnp is a auto-include for me then I get to pick another from however big the list is.
at this point I've concluded that they don't WANT to get it.
that EXACTLY SUMS IT UP. people claim they want a balanced game but then their faction gets an update and it's not brokingly OP they complain about it. doesn't matter what armies on top, eldar, necrons, space marines etc. people demand their army to be the best one.
Or because it's not up to equal level. Current measure stick is marines. If you aren't equal you are worse and are in for just losing games because your army is inferior.
Army that's equal to marines isn't broken. It's equal.
Spoletta wrote: Trading the warlord trait for the bonus is perfectly in line with what chaos got, or do you think that they get demon weapons in addition to relics?
Chaos doesn't have the worst win rate of any faction. Tyranids do.
They need a straight power boost, not access to more sidegrades.
Can i ask you what scares your nids of the eldar non airwing units? I can't think of anything honestly. Same for Chaos (after disco lord nerf). I don't see any build out there that is an hard obstacle for my nids. Only the current Tau castles are a problem, and i don't think that they are getting out of CA unharmed.
I currently play against those factions with a list made of only rubric marines, scarab terminators and demon engines. No DPs or Tzangors. The result is that i have an exactly 50% W/L so far if i don't consider my matches against marines (in the competitive store, CA18 missions).
If i can do it with fluffy TS, i surely don't have problems with nids.
I have shelved my nids due to marines, because i didn't find funny the way they outshooted and outmeleed my bugs with basic troops. They have to be brought down or the game will suffer,
As for adaptations, we don't yet know if we will get a stratagem to purchase additional ones, but i think that we have a good 90% chance of that actually being the case. Since it would be a pregame stratagem, by rules you would be able to look at the opposing army and then go shopping for adaptations. It would be immensely thematic.
Spoletta wrote: Trading the warlord trait for the bonus is perfectly in line with what chaos got, or do you think that they get demon weapons in addition to relics?
Chaos doesn't have the worst win rate of any faction. Tyranids do.
They need a straight power boost, not access to more sidegrades.
And why should we receive a direct power boost in a supplement? Supplements are always about sidegrades (except for marines). Not to mention that we did receive a power boost, since our WT and relics are really bad anything is an improvement in that regard.
Spoletta wrote: Trading the warlord trait for the bonus is perfectly in line with what chaos got, or do you think that they get demon weapons in addition to relics?
Seriously, i understand that right now everyone is blinded by the OPness of marines and wants his faction to get on the same level, but it would be a huge mistake for the game. The right course of action right now is to just reduce the power level of marines, not to increase everyone to that level.
If i look at the tyranids in the light of this update and ask myself, "Do i see myself able to go toe to toe with the new sisters, chaos after the disco nerf, CWE after the airwing nerf, necrons post buff and in general every non marine faction out there?" i'm quite confident that i could have some quite intereseting games and have a fair chance at winning without even having to rely on the GS bomb. It is just Tau that i think would give me big problems, but we have not had any CA spoilers on them.
Actually, if you take the marines out of the picture for a moment, the game has never been so balanced. So everyone asking for all factions to be brought up instead of marines being brought down, is not driving the game in a good direction.
The solution would be easy IMHO. Make the marine supplements, actual supplements. So if you get your super doctrine, you lose the AP-1 on that phase. If you get the specific stratagems you lose the generic stratagems, same for relics traits and powers.
Make it so that no matter if you go codex only or codex + supplement, you have the same amount of effects in play and number of choices. Supplements should be optional.
PA supplements right now have been greatly designed for non-marines, they always offer lateral choices. If there are new mechanics like demon weapons and byo adaptations, they come at the cost of something you had. This is the correct way to make a supplement.
YEAH and the Daemon Weapons are pretty bad overall. It's absolutely ridiculous that we have to rely on a roll and there's a reasonable chance you get NOTHING unless you spend for the reroll. Why would I bother with the garbage Khorne Sword relic when I could just use the Chainaxe or Glaive relics and get something reliable?
Spoletta wrote: Can i ask you what scares your nids of the eldar non airwing units? I can't think of anything honestly. Same for Chaos (after disco lord nerf). I don't see any build out there that is an hard obstacle for my nids. Only the current Tau castles are a problem, and i don't think that they are getting out of CA unharmed.
I currently play against those factions with a list made of only rubric marines, scarab terminators and demon engines. No DPs or Tzangors. The result is that i have an exactly 50% W/L so far if i don't consider my matches against marines (in the competitive store, CA18 missions).
If i can do it with fluffy TS, i surely don't have problems with nids.
I have shelved my nids due to marines, because i didn't find funny the way they outshooted and outmeleed my bugs with basic troops. They have to be brought down or the game will suffer,
As for adaptations, we don't yet know if we will get a stratagem to purchase additional ones, but i think that we have a good 90% chance of that actually being the case. Since it would be a pregame stratagem, by rules you would be able to look at the opposing army and then go shopping for adaptations. It would be immensely thematic.
Spoletta wrote: Trading the warlord trait for the bonus is perfectly in line with what chaos got, or do you think that they get demon weapons in addition to relics?
Chaos doesn't have the worst win rate of any faction. Tyranids do.
They need a straight power boost, not access to more sidegrades.
And why should we receive a direct power boost in a supplement? Supplements are always about sidegrades (except for marines).
Not to mention that we did receive a power boost, since our WT and relics are really bad anything is an improvement in that regard.
Hey man, get in touch with Sean Nayden and Nick Nanavati about how to win with Rubrics and Scarabs, I bet they could use your advice!
Don't take that the wrong way, it was a joke. Just saying, nobody's winning with that stuff across the world. I know you said you're playing the strongest folks in your country but maybe they're neutering their lists in their friendly games. Because that stuff won't cut it in anything serious, and neither will 98% of Nids lists. Hence, the request for stronger Nids stuff in this book. Thus far, I think it will be a letdown.
Well yeah, it you expected this to buff us to the top of the meta or on par with SM, it will be a huge letdown. Sorry if you had those expectations.
By the way, almost all of the strongest folks here have switched to SM, so they don't appear in that statistic
Automatically Appended Next Post: My point was that there isn't a really big gap between non SM factions right now, especially after the announced nerfs.
Spoletta wrote: Well yeah, it you expected this to buff us to the top of the meta or on par with SM, it will be a huge letdown. Sorry if you had those expectations.
By the way, almost all of the strongest folks here have switched to SM, so they don't appear in that statistic
Automatically Appended Next Post: My point was that there isn't a really big gap between non SM factions right now, especially after the announced nerfs.
People didn't expect a buff to marine levels of competitiveness. They hoped for a similar effort and treatment in terms of rules. They didn't get it. This is why they are upset.
However you cut it, Nids are one of the worst performing armies in the game, they are now below Dark Angels in terms of win percentage sitting somewhere like 31%. Nu Marines wipe the floor with them, and other factions manage to routinely beat them too. The gap between factions still exists.
Spoletta wrote: Well yeah, it you expected this to buff us to the top of the meta or on par with SM, it will be a huge letdown. Sorry if you had those expectations.
By the way, almost all of the strongest folks here have switched to SM, so they don't appear in that statistic
Automatically Appended Next Post: My point was that there isn't a really big gap between non SM factions right now, especially after the announced nerfs.
People didn't expect a buff to marine levels of competitiveness. They hoped for a similar effort and treatment in terms of rules. They didn't get it. This is why they are upset.
However you cut it, Nids are one of the worst performing armies in the game, they are now below Dark Angels in terms of win percentage sitting somewhere like 31%. Nu Marines wipe the floor with them, and other factions manage to routinely beat them too. The gap between factions still exists.
If they didn't expect a power boost why quote win rates? Interesting rules dont mean game winning rules and I think people have a hard time separating those two.
Nids do need a boost but dont make the problem worse by wanting then to be marines level, again bring them down a notch rather than wanting every faction to be reworked.
Spoletta wrote: Well yeah, it you expected this to buff us to the top of the meta or on par with SM, it will be a huge letdown. Sorry if you had those expectations.
By the way, almost all of the strongest folks here have switched to SM, so they don't appear in that statistic
Automatically Appended Next Post: My point was that there isn't a really big gap between non SM factions right now, especially after the announced nerfs.
People didn't expect a buff to marine levels of competitiveness. They hoped for a similar effort and treatment in terms of rules. They didn't get it. This is why they are upset.
However you cut it, Nids are one of the worst performing armies in the game, they are now below Dark Angels in terms of win percentage sitting somewhere like 31%. Nu Marines wipe the floor with them, and other factions manage to routinely beat them too. The gap between factions still exists.
If they didn't expect a power boost why quote win rates? Interesting rules dont mean game winning rules and I think people have a hard time separating those two.
Because Spoletta claimed, falsely, that the gap between factions was small. I was responding to that.
Boy the SM player are in a bubble of denial that is borderline scary. This is a game/hobby/interest and people just straight up trade reality and objectivity for their own interests and fear. Can you picture what happens with politics and religion?!
Yea the space marine players continually making excuses for and defending their obviously OP rules that have much greater depth than other factions are losing all credibility. It's obvious that some players want 40k to become 30k. Its embarrassing.
Nids do need a boost but dont make the problem worse by wanting then to be marines level, again bring them down a notch rather than wanting every faction to be reworked.
Problem is gw isn't going to delete tons of rules from marine codex nor are they going to up points needed amount as that would mean significant amount of less money needed to buy army.
That boat sailed away long time. Others either need tons of new rules or point drops but for that not much room.
Spoletta wrote: Well yeah, it you expected this to buff us to the top of the meta or on par with SM, it will be a huge letdown. Sorry if you had those expectations.
By the way, almost all of the strongest folks here have switched to SM, so they don't appear in that statistic
Automatically Appended Next Post: My point was that there isn't a really big gap between non SM factions right now, especially after the announced nerfs.
People didn't expect a buff to marine levels of competitiveness. They hoped for a similar effort and treatment in terms of rules. They didn't get it. This is why they are upset.
However you cut it, Nids are one of the worst performing armies in the game, they are now below Dark Angels in terms of win percentage sitting somewhere like 31%. Nu Marines wipe the floor with them, and other factions manage to routinely beat them too. The gap between factions still exists.
If they didn't expect a power boost why quote win rates? Interesting rules dont mean game winning rules and I think people have a hard time separating those two.
Because Spoletta claimed, falsely, that the gap between factions was small. I was responding to that.
The few Numbers available actually say the opposite, but there isn't a data sample big enough to make conclusions, so we can only go by personal experience. And no 40k stats means less than zero in this discussion since I specified that we play CA18.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Yea the space marine players continually making excuses for and defending their obviously OP rules that have much greater depth than other factions are losing all credibility. It's obvious that some players want 40k to become 30k. Its embarrassing.
no one is defending the marines. and the fact that you keep insisting on this makes me question your reading comprehension. what people are saying is that if you expect to see a chapter tactics revision in PA you're going to be dissappointed. this isn't defending marines (I've been saying since the marine codex launched that Iron Hands is a problem even compared to the other marine chapters it's CLEARLY got issues that are glareingly obvious) this is telling people to be realistic about their expectations.
I mean, it is pretty sad, to see the adaptations handled that way.
I'd love to see a really adapted swarm.
I am however also happy to see not ANOTHER IH / IF tier bs level added.
PA sofar has for non IoM been a real let down.
Edit: it's like the non marines get tablescraps comparatively and has to make do, and i for one can't wait until CA 2020.
It's also shamefull because you really get to see the favouritism going on.
Why are people acting like marines have been op for years? Did anyone genuinely believe some stop gap rules in a campaign book would be equal to a full (9th ed ready) codex plus supplements?
JSG wrote: Why are people acting like marines have been op for years? Did anyone genuinely believe some stop gap rules in a campaign book would be equal to a full (9th ed ready) codex plus supplements?
There is no such thing as a 9th edition ready or 8.5 edition Codex.
The campaign is perfectly reasonable to the meta (except for Marines), just as the vigilus campaign was. Marines are just a random outlier that needs to be corrected again as they did with previous outliers like Ynnari.
JSG wrote: Why are people acting like marines have been op for years? Did anyone genuinely believe some stop gap rules in a campaign book would be equal to a full (9th ed ready) codex plus supplements?
They have been top tier for the past 5 years at least. I still remember the skyhammer formation and the other detachment that made ALL.TRANSPORTS.FREE, ending up with the Astartes player playing 2600 pts to the enemy's 2000. and it really doesn't matter if they have been OP for one day or forever. Right now Astartes break the game. Right now everyone but GW understands it. Right now the PA and CA do NOTHING to fix this. Right now we have every right to state the obvious.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Yea the space marine players continually making excuses for and defending their obviously OP rules that have much greater depth than other factions are losing all credibility. It's obvious that some players want 40k to become 30k. Its embarrassing.
no one is defending the marines. and the fact that you keep insisting on this makes me question your reading comprehension. what people are saying is that if you expect to see a chapter tactics revision in PA you're going to be dissappointed. this isn't defending marines (I've been saying since the marine codex launched that Iron Hands is a problem even compared to the other marine chapters it's CLEARLY got issues that are glareingly obvious) this is telling people to be realistic about their expectations.
You've been doing nothing but defend Marines and their absurd power boost for months now.
JSG wrote: Why are people acting like marines have been op for years? Did anyone genuinely believe some stop gap rules in a campaign book would be equal to a full (9th ed ready) codex plus supplements?
There is no such thing as a 9th edition ready or 8.5 edition Codex.
The campaign is perfectly reasonable to the meta (except for Marines), just as the vigilus campaign was. Marines are just a random outlier that needs to be corrected again as they did with previous outliers like Ynnari.
Well there is. The SM codex is one.
topaxygouroun i wrote:
JSG wrote: Why are people acting like marines have been op for years? Did anyone genuinely believe some stop gap rules in a campaign book would be equal to a full (9th ed ready) codex plus supplements?
They have been top tier for the past 5 years at least. I still remember the skyhammer formation and the other detachment that made ALL.TRANSPORTS.FREE, ending up with the Astartes player playing 2600 pts to the enemy's 2000. and it really doesn't matter if they have been OP for one day or forever. Right now Astartes break the game. Right now everyone but GW understands it. Right now the PA and CA do NOTHING to fix this. Right now we have every right to state the obvious.
Top tier isn't op and no sane person would think SM shouldn't be top tier anyway. For the record I don't play, so thanks for clearing things up. It seems like a fairly transient problem that'll be cleared up in six months or so.
I don’t know why but I’m getting insanely impatient to find out if the Red Thirst is getting a second rule like Flesh Tearers are getting. I don’t think they necessarily need it, since marines are really good now, but it just seems odd to give their successor a better rule for no real reason. Then again, it sort of happened to Chaos.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Yea the space marine players continually making excuses for and defending their obviously OP rules that have much greater depth than other factions are losing all credibility. It's obvious that some players want 40k to become 30k. Its embarrassing.
no one is defending the marines. and the fact that you keep insisting on this makes me question your reading comprehension. what people are saying is that if you expect to see a chapter tactics revision in PA you're going to be dissappointed. this isn't defending marines (I've been saying since the marine codex launched that Iron Hands is a problem even compared to the other marine chapters it's CLEARLY got issues that are glareingly obvious) this is telling people to be realistic about their expectations.
Yet gw is happy to do that level of changes in pa. As long as it's loyalist marines. Those get actual codex level upgrades. Silly npc factions just get 3rd grade stuff as crumbles while lined up to be slaughtered by the real factions like npc's are supposed to be
Top tier isn't op and no sane person would think SM shouldn't be top tier anyway. For the record I don't play, so thanks for clearing things up. It seems like a fairly transient problem that'll be cleared up in six months or so.
Astartes at the moment are not "top tier", they completely break the game. During October, in all the major tournaments around the world, they had more top-5 placings than all the other armies combined.. Astartes had 31 top-5 placings, whereas the second army (Tau I think) had 4 or 5.
Top tier isn't op and no sane person would think SM shouldn't be top tier anyway. For the record I don't play, so thanks for clearing things up. It seems like a fairly transient problem that'll be cleared up in six months or so.
Astartes at the moment are not "top tier", they completely break the game. During October, in all the major tournaments around the world, they had more top-5 placings than all the other armies combined.. Astartes had 31 top-5 placings, whereas the second army (Tau I think) had 4 or 5.
The funny thing is that is ONLY SM players that are in denial bubble.
Also those stats counts only top 4 right? Because all the other tournaments I´ve been or seen the result on BPC makes me wanna vomit. SM are not only top 4, they are 80% of the top 20. How in the feth can anybody think that is a good thing, is beyond me.
) and they are still present (although don't post much anymore for obvious reasons), thus why people are even more careful.
. I wonder if they are going to turn it into something a little more like a temporary berserker range as opposed to a permanent delusional and hallucinatory mental break...
up. Not only do those gakholes get better rules overall, they also got some internal codex balance. And Xenos are sorely lacking that, and