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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
 Kanluwen wrote: Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And if anyone plays Heresy, and fancies a Cult Imperialis Force?
Say hello to your Survivors Of The Dark Age.....
Or Alpha Legion Operatives, oooooh...
Gue’Vesa.....
Paint them to match your Sept, and you’re most of the way there, no? Automatically Appended Next Post: Indeed, maybe a smidge Of liquid Greenstuff on one side of the helmet to cover up the optics?
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Post by: Crimson
 Irbis wrote:
I am pretty sure I saw more female looking heads on most male Eldar/Elf minis. So, yeah, close but no cigar.
In fact, if someone told me it was filed down Dark Eldar head I'd say the sculptor messed up the proportions. "She" has same jaw as her colleagues and way too thick brow... 
That you don't like how the female heads look is not the same as there not being female heads.
Not that I like how GW sculpts female heads, my Escher have Statuesque heads.
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Post by: Jadenim
Kanluwen wrote: Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And if anyone plays Heresy, and fancies a Cult Imperialis Force?
Say hello to your Survivors Of The Dark Age.....
Or Alpha Legion Operatives, oooooh...
Oh, now there’s an idea...
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Post by: SnotlingPimpWagon
I like them in general.. But am I the only one that feels a bit like the level of detail here (and in other necro gangs) is a bit lower, than of neophytes/skitarii?
Van Saar has the best poses out of the bunch, I must say!
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
I think the darker paint job makes the detail a little bit harder to pick out and appreciate.
The plates look a wee bit ‘clunky’, for want of a better word. That could be a very deliberate design choice, or an effect of the paint job adding extra shade depth. Or indeed a mix of both.
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Post by: SnotlingPimpWagon
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I think the darker paint job makes the detail a little bit harder to pick out and appreciate.
The plates look a wee bit ‘clunky’, for want of a better word. That could be a very deliberate design choice, or an effect of the paint job adding extra shade depth. Or indeed a mix of both.
I`m not the biggest fan of Infinity, but their designs are a bit similliar to Van Saar, I guess, and their minis seem to be sharper. Do infinity minis look too out of place next to necromunda ones?
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
I’m not massively familiar, but I was under the impression Infinity is a slightly larger scale than GW?
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Post by: Crimson
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I’m not massively familiar, but I was under the impression Infinity is a slightly larger scale than GW?
Infinity has a random scale.
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Post by: jake
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I think the darker paint job makes the detail a little bit harder to pick out and appreciate.
Do infinity minis look too out of place next to necromunda ones?
They really do. Infinity models tend to have much more realistic human forms, with more proportionally sized hands, heads and feet. they also tend to be less bulky overall. Thats not a dig against GW, just a difference in sculpting style. In my opinion they don't match well.
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Post by: Modock
These are quite decent. Yep they remind me of Infinity a lot..especially the leg amor plates.
Infinity is 32mm true scale, they went from 28 to 32 in third edition I think.
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Post by: Racerguy180
I do like them and they look good, but I'll just have to wait even longer to get NC17. Damnit GW just release the rest of the big gangs so I can get my hands on some Delaque assasins.
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Post by: Darth Bob
I absolutely love the Van Saar models. Definitely going to be my first gang for Necromunda. I love the kind of cyberpunk look they went with for these guys.
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And if anyone plays Heresy, and fancies a Cult Imperialis Force?
Say hello to your Survivors Of The Dark Age.....
I'm looking at these and seeing nothing but potential. Outside of Necromunda I can see myself using these as Heresy era special forces (like the ones in the short story in 'Shadow War'), Alpha Legion Operatives, Tech centric planets pre-compliance, or even Imperial Navy boarding parties.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
They're just fantastic.
I hope the shoulder thing is some kind of exotic energy cannon, and not a weird lookin' plasma cannon.
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Post by: Insurgency Walker
Are you sure about that? I jest....but maybe I will be looking for some alternative heads.
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Post by: Ssgt Carl
So yeah... I guess I’ll be buying about 6 sets for... reasons...
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Post by: jake
I think the lighting in some of the pictures is making the bald female head look more masculine than it actually is. if you look at the well lit photos from the BoW page you can see that the head appears much more feminine (for a GW head, I mean)
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Post by: complex57
Not a big fan of the techno-braid, but really like them otherwise.
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Post by: Breotan
Fething hell. GW is determined to make me buy each and every gang they come out with.
In the old Necromunda, I only had to buy Orlocks. The pegs in the shoulder made for stupid-easy weapon swaps. The other only real difference between the gangs were the skill chart anyways. I hated the look of the Goliaths and hated any model stamped in metal. It was so easy back then.
Now, all the gangs are distinct with specialized weapons for each, rich background material, amazing scenery and bases, and awesome multipart models. Silly rules writing aside, GW has hit this one out of the fething park.
Now if only they could do this with the upcoming 8mm stuff.
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Post by: John Prins
Looking at the Van Saar units, I think you could easily use several of them as Imperial Assassins, with very little conversion.
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Post by: Januine
Oh at the very start of N17 I knew and made my peace with the fact i was gonna colect all the gangs adn the FW characters as well. I'm just glad for the squat so there is at least one thing I'm not gonna have to buy!! The rest though............ yup - Mine!!!
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Post by: Grot 6
Damn, those figures are YUUGE!!!! 
Are the pets going to be out anytime soon? No one local knows anything about these, nor when the Orlocks are supposed to be available!!!
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Post by: ImAGeek
 Grot 6 wrote:Damn, those figures are YUUGE!!!!
Are the pets going to be out anytime soon? No one local knows anything about these, nor when the Orlocks are supposed to be available!!!
Did you mean Van Saar? The Orlocks are out.
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Post by: Grot 6
 ImAGeek wrote: Grot 6 wrote:Damn, those figures are YUUGE!!!!
Are the pets going to be out anytime soon? No one local knows anything about these, nor when the Orlocks are supposed to be available!!!
Did you mean Van Saar? The Orlocks are out.
Lets hope so. No One local knows anything about them, yet... o.O
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Post by: Scott-S6
Here's hoping there are enough masked heads for everyone...
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Post by: Thargrim
It's one sprue, there's no way you'll be able to do all helmetless or helmeted without some severe repetition going on. That or you're going to have to do some cutting and conversions. Even in the image of the 10 unique builds together there is duplication going on and it's very noticable with the tech braids.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
 Thargrim wrote:It's one sprue, there's no way you'll be able to do all helmetless or helmeted without some severe repetition going on. That or you're going to have to do some cutting and conversions. Even in the image of the 10 unique builds together there is duplication going on and it's very noticable with the tech braids.
Plus it looks like there's so much stuff on the sprues they'll be pretty crowded. The braids alone will take a lot of real estate and have to be carefully matched to weapons and heads.
My one gripe with the Orlocks is how they're more meant to be build one way, arm swaps with other kits are very difficult. Van Saar looks like it will be even more so. Which is FINE, but not ideal if that makes sense.
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
Thargrim wrote:It's one sprue, there's no way you'll be able to do all helmetless or helmeted without some severe repetition going on. That or you're going to have to do some cutting and conversions. Even in the image of the 10 unique builds together there is duplication going on and it's very noticable with the tech braids.
The same head at a different angle, or on a different torso, will make models look different. The Escher sprue gives you 8 faces and 8 hairstyles for five models (they're not universally cross-compatible, but you can mix some of them up), so I expect a similar level of redundancy on the Van Saar sprue. The braids might be matched so specific heads, but given that they're all bald, it could be as simple as gluing one to the back of whatever head you like.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Orlock sprue has 10 heads, so you get 20 per box.
No reason to assume you won't be able to do all helmeted.
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Post by: Chopstick
None of the gang kit give you enough bit to make a full respirator/mask team so don't expect that to happen here.
Escher face and hair go well with each other, except for the leader face and hair. Which for some reason Duncan use with a normal face in his Hairline streak painting tips.
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
The difference is that respirators are purchaseable equipment - I don't know if these masks are the same or if they're just ornamental. If the latter, no need to skimp on them.
You get at least one clipped to a belt, though.
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Post by: unmercifulconker
 John Prins wrote:Looking at the Van Saar units, I think you could easily use several of them as Imperial Assassins, with very little conversion.
I was thinking just that, the one with the dual pistols, funky mask, sci-fi swag braid, hello my assassins.
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Post by: Chopstick
 AndrewGPaul wrote:The difference is that respirators are purchaseable equipment - I don't know if these masks are the same or if they're just ornamental. If the latter, no need to skimp on them.
You get at least one clipped to a belt, though.
Mask/respirator on head are all for decoration, you don't need them on the model if you want to buy a respirator. And it look like the masked Van Saar head is their respirator.
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
The respirators are to identify which fighters have a respirator as part of their equipment. If you look at the fighter cards in the box, all the fighters with a respirator have one on the model.
I mean, you can not bother with things like that if you don't want to, but ... eww. 
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Post by: Chopstick
Even though I would prefer all my model having respirator head rather than a different flavor of smirk and lips piercing. RAW you don't need to model wargear on the model.
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Post by: ekwatts
Between these and the new Doom Lords for Blood Bowl, GW has basically dropped too many "must buy" items at around the same time for me... Again.
The Van Saars I think I'm going to pick up a couple of boxes as Imperial Guard proxies for an Iron Hands army.
And possibly goes without saying, but between these and the Orlocks, you pretty much have some excellent multipart miniatures for almost any major Cyberpunk setting. The Goliaths and Escher have their uses in that too, obviously, but the last two gangs feel a little more repurposable (I think I just made that word up).
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
Chopstick wrote:Even though I would prefer all my model having respirator head rather than a different flavor of smirk and lips piercing. RAW you don't need to model wargear on the model.
Who cares about RAW? It's just wrong I always spent the ten creds for a respirator the the Escher Heavy with heavy plasma gun, even though she was never targeted by a gas weapon in ten years.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ekwatts wrote:And possibly goes without saying, but between these and the Orlocks, you pretty much have some excellent multipart miniatures for almost any major Cyberpunk setting. The Goliaths and Escher have their uses in that too, obviously, but the last two gangs feel a little more repurposable (I think I just made that word up).
I don't know; the Eschers and Goliaths both look as useable elsewhere as the Orlocks do - as different flavours of "street punks". In fact, you could mix all three up in a non-Necromunda setting.
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Post by: Paradigm
Love the look of these Van Saar chaps. I was this close to buying into Orlocks, but now I'm definitely waiting for them. The more cyberpunk style is totally unique within the wider 40k setting, but fits nonetheless.
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Post by: Haighus
 Paradigm wrote:Love the look of these Van Saar chaps. I was this close to buying into Orlocks, but now I'm definitely waiting for them. The more cyberpunk style is totally unique within the wider 40k setting, but fits nonetheless.
It is totally unique- Imperial Assassins have the same look. Sleek high-tech has been in 40k for awhile
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Post by: bubber
So should I use Orlocks or Van Saar to make my 2000AD Judges? Got the heads, eagle shoulder pads & weapons already. Just need legs & torsos.
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Post by: Kanluwen
 bubber wrote:So should I use Orlocks or Van Saar to make my 2000AD Judges? Got the heads, eagle shoulder pads & weapons already. Just need legs & torsos.
You might want to wait for the Enforcers.
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Post by: Elbows
Or go to W. Artel and looks up his non-Arbites.
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Post by: Modock
 Haighus wrote: Paradigm wrote:Love the look of these Van Saar chaps. I was this close to buying into Orlocks, but now I'm definitely waiting for them. The more cyberpunk style is totally unique within the wider 40k setting, but fits nonetheless.
It is totally unique- Imperial Assassins have the same look. Sleek high-tech has been in 40k for awhile
If you mean these ones...are nothing alike.
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Post by: Lord Fishface
 H.B.M.C. wrote:They're just fantastic.
I hope the shoulder thing is some kind of exotic energy cannon, and not a weird lookin' plasma cannon.
My first thought was ‘conversion beamer?’. Whatever it is, these are some some lovely models.
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Post by: GuardStrider
I might use them as Inquisitorial Acolytes
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Post by: DaemonJellybaby
The big gun was in the rumour engine a few weeks ago!
They look very cyberpunk/covert ops and I like it.
I'm seriously considering doing some as an inquisitorial strike team.
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Post by: Commander Cain
Wow they look really cool! The models would fit really well alongside some Dreamforge stormtroopers as they have very similar armour styles (besides the helmets)
That shield has to be my favourite thing in the set but all the cool helmets and guns are not far behind..
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Post by: Haighus
 Modock wrote: Haighus wrote: Paradigm wrote:Love the look of these Van Saar chaps. I was this close to buying into Orlocks, but now I'm definitely waiting for them. The more cyberpunk style is totally unique within the wider 40k setting, but fits nonetheless.
It is totally unique- Imperial Assassins have the same look. Sleek high-tech has been in 40k for awhile
If you mean these ones...are nothing alike.
Eh, ymmv, but the body shapes and equipment have a lot of similarities. The Van Saar have more armour, but that is more a function of their role. You slap armour plates onto the Callidus and it would look very similar to the female Van Saar. The data noodle things the VanSaar have also look similar to the Speculum Animus of the Culexus. I feel the Van Saar draw heavily from the Assassins aesthetic, but modified to fit the underhive, the role of a ganger, and some adjustments to make up for lower tech (like armour plates over the body suits which the Assassins don't need with their superior bodysuits).
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Post by: Cataphract
The new VS models remind me of Hive Spiders
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Post by: Barzam
With how they've been updating the gangs and hoe they've redesigned Van Saar, I'm really hopeful that the'll do great things with the Spyrers when they get to them.
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Post by: Mr_Rose
I for one hope they do a “big reveal” that sourer suits are purely human tech… STC tech in fact, that Van Saar sell as “offworld” tech through cut-outs and shell companies because they can jack up the price even more and to throw off suspicion about its origins…
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Post by: Mymearan
Hah, the optical illusion makes it seem like that lady has extremely short legs... but in fact what I saw as one leg was actually the top of one and the bottom of another.
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Post by: Chopstick
Plasmagun/Canon + shield seem like an intended combo 
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Post by: Zognob Gorgoff
Oh my that shotgun is sick
Looks like motion/heartbeat sensor on his belt too
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Post by: Dark Apostle 666
That guy at the bottom with the mask and rifle is just oozing cool - any indication how soon they will be available to buy? Because I'm gonna need 2 boxes bare minimum!
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Post by: SnotlingPimpWagon
Well, those photos do the paintjobs more justice!
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Post by: Zognob Gorgoff
They originally said 1 box per quarter so April earliest but May seemed more likely, now I’m unsure as they showed these guys off early and we haven’t had the weapon pack yet.
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Post by: Yodhrin
Disagree. Look, nobody can deny the FW person has talent, but their style is just flat-out bad for promo stuff. Every time the way they paint faces flattens out detail while exaggerating some features to a silly degree(see Valdor's forehead), and the studio lighting doesn't do it any favours either. The style is the kind that no doubt looks really amazing when you hold it in your hand with less stark lighting, or even in distance pics with "mood" lighting, but these up-close shots look like someone taking pictures of their model with the camera flash turned on.
They either need to change their painter for the promo pics, or else change the photographer taking them.
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Post by: Thargrim
Yeah on one hand the models are technically well painted. They probably look great on the table. But they don't photograph particularly well. I'm also not a fan of NMM and it looks like zero metallics were used on these. I'll certainly be using kabalite green for the armor, but some alterations elsewhere are going to be made.
But seeing as how all the studio gangs are being painted this way, i'd rather see the aesthetic stay consistent in their photography. It's too late to do a jump in painting style now, otherwise the remaining gangs will look odd next to the others when it comes to images.
I'd also bet these will release in may, hopefully no later than that. And weirdly enough i'm pretty excited to to see the Van Saar dice. The other dice sets for the gangs are my favorite GW dice.
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Post by: Sabotage!
My guess would be early May for the release, that way it would be a quarter (roughly 3 months) apart from the Orlock, and quarterly releases are what they are going for. Though I suppose if they are selling well enough and have made enough progress on future releases maybe GW has sped up the Necromunda production schedule with more sculptor's and production time (and hopefully an editor).
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
Kanluwen wrote: bubber wrote:So should I use Orlocks or Van Saar to make my 2000AD Judges? Got the heads, eagle shoulder pads & weapons already. Just need legs & torsos.
You might want to wait for the Enforcers.
Human Blood Bowl linemen actually make excellent Dredd-style Judges once you swap the head and lose the punch daggers.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
 Yodhrin wrote:Disagree. Look, nobody can deny the FW person has talent, but their style is just flat-out bad for promo stuff. Every time the way they paint faces flattens out detail while exaggerating some features to a silly degree(see Valdor's forehead), and the studio lighting doesn't do it any favours either. The style is the kind that no doubt looks really amazing when you hold it in your hand with less stark lighting, or even in distance pics with "mood" lighting, but these up-close shots look like someone taking pictures of their model with the camera flash turned on. They either need to change their painter for the promo pics, or else change the photographer taking them.
I have to agree. I mean you can basically see the brushstrokes on these. And the highlighting is so thick! Still, awesome models. Can't wait to find out what everything is.
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Post by: Hanksingle
 Barzam wrote:With how they've been updating the gangs and hoe they've redesigned Van Saar, I'm really hopeful that the'll do great things with the Spyrers when they get to them.
Oh my.
I hadn't even thought of this. At this level of quality, Spyrers would be amazing.
I love this kit. I'm overwhelmingly excited to get it, and that hasn't been the case about any model in a really long time. Feels like GW is embracing the idea that folks will buy things even though they are versatile.
Edit: Wait, this a FW set? That would stink. I don't want to pay $100 for these.
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Post by: Charax
Last time they updated the Spyrers we got the Matriarch and Patriarch.
I wouldn't get your hopes up
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Post by: Crimson
I hope they have a decent save, they look very heavily armoured.
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Post by: ImAGeek
Hanksingle wrote: Barzam wrote:With how they've been updating the gangs and hoe they've redesigned Van Saar, I'm really hopeful that the'll do great things with the Spyrers when they get to them.
Oh my.
I hadn't even thought of this. At this level of quality, Spyrers would be amazing.
I love this kit. I'm overwhelmingly excited to get it, and that hasn't been the case about any model in a really long time. Feels like GW is embracing the idea that folks will buy things even though they are versatile.
Edit: Wait, this a FW set? That would stink. I don't want to pay $100 for these.
Technically it’s designed by Forge World but it’ll be plastic and available through GW and retailers like the other Necromunda gangs.
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Post by: Gimgamgoo
Van Saar was the gang I was looking most forward to.
However, I really hope there's enough normal heads on the frame to make them without robotic tentacles or what looks like Dark Eldar masks. They really look bad.
If there aren't, anyone know of a good website to buy plain human heads from that will fit?
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
Statuesque Miniatures. Although I wouldn't be surprised if you get enough faces to have them all bare or all masked.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
 Gimgamgoo wrote:Van Saar was the gang I was looking most forward to.
However, I really hope there's enough normal heads on the frame to make them without robotic tentacles or what looks like Dark Eldar masks. They really look bad.
If there aren't, anyone know of a good website to buy plain human heads from that will fit?
I'm sure you can just clip the tentacle away.
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Post by: daedalus
Scion heads might be an interesting look too.
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Post by: Zywus
Gimgamgoo wrote:
However, I really hope there's enough normal heads on the frame to make them without robotic tentacles or what looks like Dark Eldar masks. They really look bad.
If there aren't, anyone know of a good website to buy plain human heads from that will fit?
AndrewGPaul wrote:Statuesque Miniatures. Although I wouldn't be surprised if you get enough faces to have them all bare or all masked.
Brother Vinny has some female post- apoc heads that might fit the bill too-Maybe not plain enough though?
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Post by: reluxor
Thargrim wrote:Yeah after a good look i'm kinda torn. They do look good, but also almost look too techy/borderline xeno tech. And not really like something that belongs in the imperium. Kinda like 3rd party sculpts. On one hand it's good they are different and distinct, but they look more bizarre than I was expecting.
Pretty sure two rumor engines are now solved as well, the shoulder cannon and the rigs on their backs are two of the more recent rumor engines.
Totally agree. To me the conversion from genestealer cult/space wolves heads are much better
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Post by: insaniak
Very impressed. There's enough stylistic cues back to the original Van Saar to still see what they should be, while modernising and amping them up to 11.
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Post by: DaveC
Forgeworld Escher weapon sets up for preorder £16 each!
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-IE/searchResults?N=4178246428+1842311171
set 1
Set 2
Set 3
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Almost identical loadouts, just different poses.
Wish there were some shotguns in there and melee weapons other than a chainsword, and what's with the meltaguns everywhere?
Set 3 is super naff with the mirrored nightshade instead of a stubber or other heavy weapon.
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Post by: Skinnereal
It's lucky I didn't glue the Escher leader's collared arms on. There are alternatives of them in a couple of those packs. I now know where to magnetise.
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Post by: DaveC
 lord_blackfang wrote:Almost identical loadouts, just different poses.
Wish there were some shotguns in there and melee weapons other than a chainsword, and what's with the meltaguns everywhere?
Set 3 is super naff with the mirrored nightshade instead of a stubber or other heavy weapon.
Yeah just noticed that the contents is pretty much the same except for set 3 as you said so at least all 3 aren't needed to get everything
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Post by: Albertorius
The selections and the prices kinda baffle me, to be honest.
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Post by: Chopstick
meh, the only interesting bit was the 2 handed Heavy stubber, right hand plasma and right hand autopistol.
But I guess if people can buy this and spam Needle rifle now. Why do toxin weapon still have Ap, and it's -2 for rifle but -1 for pistol....
I think "weapon pack" should be more focused on more mundane basic weapon like auto/las/shot gun, not turning it into an arm race. Or at least keep them in the trading post with rarity.
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Post by: Albertorius
Chopstick wrote:meh, the only interesting bit was the 2 handed Heavy stubber, right hand plasma and right hand autopistol.
But I guess if people can buy this and spam Needle rifle now. Why do toxin weapon still have Ap, and it's -2 for rifle but -1 for pistol....
Needle guns shoot a laser to make holes into cloth and armor.
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
Chopstick wrote:I think "weapon pack" should be more focused on more mundane basic weapon like auto/las/shot gun, not turning it into an arm race. Or at least keep them in the trading post with rarity.
Eh? haven't you noticed the profusion of lasguns on the plastic sprues? What earthly reason is there for wasting production capacity making resin ones? More autoguns and shotguns I can understand, but to be honest, two of each is probably enough for me.
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Post by: Chopstick
AndrewGPaul wrote:
Eh? haven't you noticed the profusion of lasguns on the plastic sprues? What earthly reason is there for wasting production capacity making resin ones? More autoguns and shotguns I can understand, but to be honest, two of each is probably enough for me.
Was talking about general upgrade pack for every gang, Goliath and Orlock have 0 lasgun in their sprue, Goliath have 0 lasgun or autogun on their sprue. Obviously if a gang is overloaded with one type of weapon, they shouldn't need more.
Luckily I already make all the autogun/shotgun I need from Neophyte Hybrid kit.
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
We haven't seen their upgrade packs yet, so how are you managing to know what's included in them?
edit - the Orlock sets will have hand flamers, bolt pistols, heavy bolters and 2-handed hammers, for example.
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Post by: AduroT
Pdf with new weapon rules for Escher Gangs;
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/PDF/Downloads//Escher_New_Weapons.pdf
It also allows their Juves to have armor now as all members of the gang get access to Wargear.
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Post by: Theophony
AndrewGPaul wrote:Chopstick wrote:I think "weapon pack" should be more focused on more mundane basic weapon like auto/las/shot gun, not turning it into an arm race. Or at least keep them in the trading post with rarity.
Eh? haven't you noticed the profusion of lasguns on the plastic sprues? What earthly reason is there for wasting production capacity making resin ones? More autoguns and shotguns I can understand, but to be honest, two of each is probably enough for me.
Not sure how well It would work now, but in Oldcromunda a buddy of mine had all las all the time.
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
How dull. That's an Imperial Guard squad, not a gang.
Anyway, now, lasguns don't get rapid fire, while autoguns do. With the Zone Mortalis setup making ranges much shorter than in the comparatively open Sector Mechanicus, the short-range firepower of shotguns could be more useful than lasguns, so I'll keep going with a mix, I think.
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Post by: Chopstick
 Theophony wrote:
Not sure how well It would work now, but in Oldcromunda a buddy of mine had all las all the time.
Lasgun was OP in oldmunda with AP -1 and being out of ammo was more punishing.
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Post by: Baxx
Disappointed to see the continuation of the 5 pts lasgun and 10 pts laspistol. It was one of the few things I thought Underhive got right over Gang War.
Should be interesting to compare the profiles here to the existing ones, maybe this pdf can be used to choose which one is correct...
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Post by: Albertorius
Would have liked to see bolt weaponry of some kind instead of all that plasma pistols/flamer pistols (I mean, I like to see flamer pistols, but swapping some for bolts would have been better for me)
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
What a wild and random collection of weapons. I'll probably get two of them, but the way they're set out and the included choices are somewhat baffling.
I cannot imagine a world where you need two Nightshade toxin thingies, each in a different pose, but not a shock whip that goes on someone other than the leader mini. And did we need 3 Hand Flamers per set? Especially when there are no Bolt Pistols or Bolters included? Some other combi-weapons would'a been nice.
At least the Escher weapon list now includes the Stubgun by default, instantly making a few of my minis legal to include from the word go again.
What we've seen of the other two Gangs look pretty cool. Hopefully they limit themselves to 2 sets per other gang.
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Post by: MajorTom11
Yeah... those sets are sub-par for me. First they overlap like crazy so basically they are trying to entice you to buy one of each to pretty much just get 1-2 special weapons and then a bunch of duplicates. Not exactly enticing. Next the mix just seems odd.
To me, would have been WAY better to do a pistols pack, a rifles pack, a special weapons pack and a heavy weapons pack. At the very least... If I'm really dreaming simply an a la carte menu and not pre-packed would have been even better.
At this point I have no desire to be painting any more eschers anyways so not that big a deal, but, putting my feedback in here anyways in hopes of an improvement on subsequent releases.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
 MajorTom11 wrote:To me, would have been WAY better to do a pistols pack, a rifles pack, a special weapons pack and a heavy weapons pack. At the very least... If I'm really dreaming simply an a la carte menu and not pre-packed would have been even better.
Pistols/ HTH Pack, Rifles Pack, Special/Heavy Weapon pack. It'd make far more sense, and we wouldn't end up with eight Hand Flamers after buying all 3 packs.
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Post by: Kijamon
Neh I don't think so. If you don't plan on spamming one weapon then the breakdown of each pack is perfect.
It gives you the scope to avoid having groups where every gang has the exact same poses with the same weapons. Yes you might not run two chem throwers in your gang (but now if you want to you can have 2 unique poses!) but it means if player a and player b opt to have one in their gang, their models can look really differently now.
Plus if you have a heavy weapon pack of 2 heavy stubber poses, a chem thrower, etc etc then folk would moan that they only want one heavy stubber so why do they have to spend £16 buying 6 weapons?
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Post by: Vorian
H.B.M.C. wrote: MajorTom11 wrote:To me, would have been WAY better to do a pistols pack, a rifles pack, a special weapons pack and a heavy weapons pack. At the very least... If I'm really dreaming simply an a la carte menu and not pre-packed would have been even better.
Pistols/ HTH Pack, Rifles Pack, Special/Heavy Weapon pack.
It'd make far more sense, and we wouldn't end up with eight Hand Flamers after buying all 3 packs.
You'd think this way would result in far more packs betting sold too. Odd decisions.
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Post by: JimmyWolf87
Rules wise; depending on how you interpret it (because FW have managed to once more make something unnecessarily obtuse), Juves can now access grenades and armour. Which is all to the good. Also, fighters can now take up to 3 Weapons + Grenades. Again... depending on interpretation.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Wasn't that always the case? 
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
Kijamon wrote:Neh I don't think so. If you don't plan on spamming one weapon then the breakdown of each pack is perfect.
It gives you the scope to avoid having groups where every gang has the exact same poses with the same weapons. Yes you might not run two chem throwers in your gang (but now if you want to you can have 2 unique poses!) but it means if player a and player b opt to have one in their gang, their models can look really differently now.
Plus if you have a heavy weapon pack of 2 heavy stubber poses, a chem thrower, etc etc then folk would moan that they only want one heavy stubber so why do they have to spend £16 buying 6 weapons?
Also, this chem-thrower is held in the other hand from the one on the sprue. That's why it's there. I imagine most people will only want a single pack - depending if you want the heavy stubber in a firing or at ease pose, or exactly which special weapon you want for the leader. Automatically Appended Next Post: Vorian wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote: MajorTom11 wrote:To me, would have been WAY better to do a pistols pack, a rifles pack, a special weapons pack and a heavy weapons pack. At the very least... If I'm really dreaming simply an a la carte menu and not pre-packed would have been even better.
Pistols/ HTH Pack, Rifles Pack, Special/Heavy Weapon pack.
It'd make far more sense, and we wouldn't end up with eight Hand Flamers after buying all 3 packs.
You'd think this way would result in far more packs betting sold too. Odd decisions.
Go back through this thread and there's people moaning about that option, too. You can't please everyone.
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Post by: JimmyWolf87
Depends if you thought Grenades were 'Weapons' or not. Obviously have a weapon profile. Wasn't made explicitly clear either way that I could find. This update both helps clarify and makes it just as vague at the same time. It's quite a feat.
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Post by: Vorian
Oh yeah, people would complain no matter what. I just think the lumping them together in weapon types would have made them more money.
I would (will, who am I kidding?) only ever get one of these - but I probably would have got 3 of the different types. I can't be that atypical.
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Post by: Mymearan
If they were packed by weapon type you would essentially need to buy all three packs to get a good selection of weapons. No thanks. This way I can buy just 1 pack and have basically all I need.
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Post by: MajorTom11
Do you not see how the packs could be cheaper if they had, say, 4 guns each only? Then you could buy more or less exactly what you want for around the same price. This isn't 40k, I am adding at most 5-10 models to my existing gang. I don't need a pack with every weapon available, I need a pack that lets me build what I want in a single shot. Or, several cheaper, smaller, specific packs that let me get the same result.
The position that 'I like less options because it just so happens to suit me personally' does not make the rest of us whiners. It just makes you lucky you got what you were looking for, and given the snark, I am pretty sure you would be 'whining' if you didn't like the specific of the offering...
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
GW have put out a PDF with the Sump Dogs.
It's on the latest community update.
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Post by: Baxx
Interesting, hopefully the costs are correct this time. I had the impression the previous pre-made card didn't match the Underhive system nor the Gang War system. I'm sort of confused... how come this pdf lists 9 weapon profiles (inclduing 2 ammo types), and all seem to be correct? Or am I missing something? The Escher weapon pdf on the other hand... one step back from the FAQ!
FEAR: Instead of making an Wound roll for an attack with the Fear trait, the opposing player makes
a Nerve test for the target, subtracting 2 from the result. If the test fails, the target is immediately
Broken and runs for cover.
FAQ v1
FEAR
Instead of making an Injury roll for an attack with the Fear trait, the opposing player makes a
Nerve test for the target, subtracting 2 from the result. If the test fails, the target is immediately
Broken and runs for cover.
Escher weapon list pdf
This pdf is obviously wrong about the Fear weapon trait. What to think about the Choke gas grenades cost then? Gang War 1's 40 credits or this pdf's 45 credits? Stiletto sword, 35 or 30 credits? Automatically Appended Next Post: JimmyWolf87 wrote: Depends if you thought Grenades were 'Weapons' or not. Obviously have a weapon profile. Wasn't made explicitly clear either way that I could find. This update both helps clarify and makes it just as vague at the same time. It's quite a feat.
If you look at the example fighters GW have made, grenades does not seem to take any weapon slots.
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Post by: Oguhmek
Nice weapons, I will definitely get a pack or two, mainly for the heavy stubber and the needle rifle.
But wow, someone really loves hand flamers. Would it have hurt to make one or two of them into bolt pistols or maybe grappling hooks?
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
MajorTom11 wrote:Do you not see how the packs could be cheaper if they had, say, 4 guns each only? Then you could buy more or less exactly what you want for around the same price. This isn't 40k, I am adding at most 5-10 models to my existing gang. I don't need a pack with every weapon available, I need a pack that lets me build what I want in a single shot. Or, several cheaper, smaller, specific packs that let me get the same result.
The position that 'I like less options because it just so happens to suit me personally' does not make the rest of us whiners. It just makes you lucky you got what you were looking for, and given the snark, I am pretty sure you would be 'whining' if you didn't like the specific of the offering...
I'd hazard a guess at some sort of production restriction or sales forecasters similar that says they have to be a certain value and therefore a certain size, to be produced and sold. 16 quid is certainly at the extreme low end of what FW produces.
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Post by: MajorTom11
Sure, but for just a bit more I could get pretty much all those weapons in the GSC neophyte box. Minus chems and needle rifles. I dunno, hey if people like it that's great, but for me, it's the first necromunda release i didn't insta-buy.
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Post by: Clockpunk
Ordered weapon pack 2 right away, but only for the needle weapons and chainsaw. Think I will be listing the others for sale on FB groups, say £1.50 a pop (with any extra being an extra 60p or some such). I suspect a lot of people will do likewise, so might make getting exact weapon loadouts a little easier.
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Post by: gorgon
MajorTom11 wrote:Do you not see how the packs could be cheaper if they had, say, 4 guns each only?
Honestly, I don't think FW wants to deal with a flood of tiny orders of a few guns. It's not efficient for them. The some-of-this-some-of-that approach to the packs reminds me of the power weapon packs for 30K. Like with the rules, it's FW...and FW is what it is. As others have said, the secondary market will fill the need here.
The new equipment list is great...finally I can have more of my metal Eschers be WYSIWYG right off the bat. I wish it had been that way in the first place. I understand why it wasn't, but there's a little more rules dynamism going on with NM than I'd like. 
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Post by: Irbis
MajorTom11 wrote:Do you not see how the packs could be cheaper if they had, say, 4 guns each only?
No, we do not see, seeing FW five weapon packs cost almost same amount:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-IE/Legion-Multi-Melta-Set
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-IE/Legion-Lascannon-Set
Though I have to echo what others said, I don't like the Necromunda upgrades. Way too tribal and primitive, with pest skulls and  , not enough industrial themes. Pass.
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Post by: MajorTom11
You guys are right. Even the bolt pistol packs are 13 pounds. As you say, I will be happy to raid the bitz-box for these, the only thing I don't already have is needle rifles. I think if the weapon packs had a lot more hard to get weapons otherwise it would be a lot more tempting. Emphasise needle, shotguns, chems and stubbers, ease off on the flamers and plasma.
Bring on the Cawdors!
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Post by: Baxx
Wasn't hand flamer quite hard to get? Was raiding the bitz box a few years back for Necromunda, only one I found was the old one from the original Necromunda plastic weapons sprue.
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Post by: Vorian
Given that is the Escher theme, it would be a little odd if their upgrades didn't have that too
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Post by: Desubot
Baxx wrote:Wasn't hand flamer quite hard to get? Was raiding the bitz box a few years back for Necromunda, only one I found was the old one from the original Necromunda plastic weapons sprue.
Only ones i can think of are Blood angles and the pewter ones on SoB
there may be other kits or the old 2nd edition weapon sprue
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Post by: warl0rdb0b
Baxx wrote:Wasn't hand flamer quite hard to get? Was raiding the bitz box a few years back for Necromunda, only one I found was the old one from the original Necromunda plastic weapons sprue.
There's a good number from the multipart Genestealer Cult units, 5 in the Acolyte set alone.
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Post by: Baxx
Ahh ok nevermind then, been out of touch for too long.
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Post by: ImAGeek
I finally bought Necromunda today, and I’ll probably pick up one of the weapon sets for the Escher - I like them more when there’s a bit more variety.
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Post by: MajorTom11
warl0rdb0b wrote:Baxx wrote:Wasn't hand flamer quite hard to get? Was raiding the bitz box a few years back for Necromunda, only one I found was the old one from the original Necromunda plastic weapons sprue.
There's a good number from the multipart Genestealer Cult units, 5 in the Acolyte set alone.
Yup, the GSC infantry boxes are absolute treasure troves, especially the acolyte box. Almost every single gun in the escher set is in there, plus autos, autopistols, shotguns of multiple varieties, grenade launchers, webber, bolt pistol and I'm probably forgetting a bunch of stuff on top of it. Only things not in the GSC set that is in the escher sets? ChemSynth and Needle Rifle... It's a pretty awesome pick-up box for parts, and not to mention you get a necromunda gang out of it too
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Yeah, GSC are great for parts, as long as you can shave a few claws off the gun grips.
Anyway the packs are still better than what I expected (las weapons pack, auto weapons pack, etc) but is anyone else thinking these are the same digital arm sculpts as the plastic sprue just with the gun swapped out? All the poses seem to be repeated from the box and also repeat in every pack with different guns. Feels lazy as hell.
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Post by: daedalus
 Desubot wrote:Baxx wrote:Wasn't hand flamer quite hard to get? Was raiding the bitz box a few years back for Necromunda, only one I found was the old one from the original Necromunda plastic weapons sprue.
Only ones i can think of are Blood angles and the pewter ones on SoB
there may be other kits or the old 2nd edition weapon sprue
I've got a bunch of super old plastic ones from somewhere that I got for 25 cents each out of the FLGS bitzbox along with the old brick shaped bolters and some plastic laspistols that look kind of like buck rodgers rayguns. I don't know when/where they came from before that, but the laspistols look like the ones that Mordian sergeants carry but plastic, so I'm guessing it was 2nd / 3rd edition era stuff.
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Post by: Dysartes
JimmyWolf87 wrote:This update both helps clarify and makes it just as vague at the same time. It's quite a feat.
Welcome to Necromunda 2017
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Well, I ordered me a set #2. Hoping for Goliaths and Orlocks soon with some more exciting weapon selections.
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Post by: Zwan1One
Looking at the sets again they don’t seem too disappointing. There’s 1 heavy and 3 special per set and then a variety of other weapons. It’s not perfect but better then I first thought.
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Post by: Breotan
So much for my hope of getting a right hand stub pistol for my Goliaths.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
 Breotan wrote:So much for my hope of getting a right hand stub pistol for my Goliaths.
You didn't think the Escher set would contain weapons for the Goliaths, did you?
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Post by: Chopstick
warl0rdb0b wrote: There's a good number from the multipart Genestealer Cult units, 5 in the Acolyte set alone.
The arm have 3rd gen Genestealer Hybrid skeletal hand, with claw. Same for some of the arms from Neophyte Hybrid box, including the Heavy Stubber arm. People are fine with this?
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Post by: Yodhrin
Chopstick wrote:warl0rdb0b wrote:
There's a good number from the multipart Genestealer Cult units, 5 in the Acolyte set alone.
The arm have 3rd gen Genestealer Hybrid skeletal hand, with claw.
Same for some of the arms from Neophyte Hybrid box, including the Heavy Stubber arm.
People are fine with this?
So, err, cut the hand off and stick the gun on a ganger's hand. In the case of the Heavy Stubber, I used that myself for a Goliath, you just need to trim the "claws" a little on the left hand and scrape down the back of the right hand a little bit.
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Post by: Chopstick
It'll probably look bad and you'll end up chopping more 4th Gen GSC arm just to have a matching grip. For Goliath it was pretty simple if you want a Hand Flamer, just use the Space Marine one.
I mean if you don't really care you can just slap them togerther and move on, but for me everytime I tried a separate grip arm + gun I end up have to re-adjust the gun constantly because I feel like they're always slightly misaligned.
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Post by: jake
I'm pretty pleased with these weapon sets, except for the lack of shotguns. Thats a real missed opportunity and kind of a head scratcher.
I do like that there are lots of mirror options for stuff we already have. It may seem redundant, but as someone who is really excited for Necormonuda for the model building opportunities and opens up a bunch of neat options. I'll probably end up building 40 or more Eschers just for fun and painting, even if I never actually use more than a 10 or so.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
 jake wrote:I'm pretty pleased with these weapon sets, except for the lack of shotguns. Thats a real missed opportunity and kind of a head scratcher.
Especially when they bothered to put a new ammo type for shotguns in the pdf.
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Post by: Yodhrin
Chopstick wrote:It'll probably look bad and you'll end up chopping more 4th Gen GSC arm just to have a matching grip. For Goliath it was pretty simple if you want a Hand Flamer, just use the Space Marine one.
I mean if you don't really care you can just slap them togerther and move on, but for me everytime I tried a separate grip arm + gun I end up have to re-adjust the gun constantly because I feel like they're always slightly misaligned.
I mean, sure, things will look bad if you put no effort into them. And? The FW weapon arms will look bad if you just took them out of the baggie and slapped them on the models with zero effort, they need to be washed and prepped, pinned and gap-filled to look their best - why is fixing a marginal misalignment at the shoulder joint easier than fixing a marginal misalignment between the hand and the gun?
And hey, maybe I'm just delusional, but I don't think this looks gak:
...mold line on the foot I hadn't noticed before aside. Took about half an hour of test fitting arms, trimming the GSC stubber, and gap filling.
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Post by: warl0rdb0b
Chopstick wrote:warl0rdb0b wrote:
There's a good number from the multipart Genestealer Cult units, 5 in the Acolyte set alone.
The arm have 3rd gen Genestealer Hybrid skeletal hand, with claw.
Same for some of the arms from Neophyte Hybrid box, including the Heavy Stubber arm.
People are fine with this?
You could snip/cut the gun away from the hand and do the same with the Escher hands, its not the most taxing of conversions.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Baxx wrote:Wasn't hand flamer quite hard to get? Was raiding the bitz box a few years back for Necromunda, only one I found was the old one from the original Necromunda plastic weapons sprue.
The old close combat weapon sprue for Marines had one on so marine players from 2nd usually had a god number lying around.
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Post by: Baxx
Breotan wrote:So much for my hope of getting a right hand stub pistol for my Goliaths.
That's a quite simple conversion.
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Post by: OneManNoodles
Breotan wrote:So much for my hope of getting a right hand stub pistol for my Goliaths.
They announced (and showed) packs of Goliath weapons just over a month ago: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2640/743059.page
Looks like there might be three packs as well.
Edit: Your probably not going to have to wait long before they are released.
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Post by: stormboy
jake wrote:I'm pretty pleased with these weapon sets, except for the lack of shotguns.
The look of some of the weapons makes me think shotguns are a simple clip and drill away. The melta and flamer in set 1 make me think shotgun conversion with ease.
To be fair - the conversion shouldn't need to happen - because shotguns should be included... but we have what we have.
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Post by: deleted20250424
Were there articles similar to the Sump Dogs one?
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Post by: Baxx
What articles?
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Post by: malfred
Sorry if this has been covered. Will weapon upgrades for Necromunda
be sold through regular shops or mail order only?
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Post by: Thargrim
 malfred wrote:Sorry if this has been covered. Will weapon upgrades for Necromunda
be sold through regular shops or mail order only?
Only mail order from Forgeworld (the UK).
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Post by: Haighus
Am I right in saying all the stub guns released in the N17 models so far are stub revolvers? No stub automatics? Would be cool to have the variety, but I can see why they might be wanting to standardise them down for visual recognition purposes.
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Post by: malfred
Thanks. So I just gotta wait for that sweet 350 dollar point.
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Post by: MajorTom11
Scott-S6 wrote:Baxx wrote:Wasn't hand flamer quite hard to get? Was raiding the bitz box a few years back for Necromunda, only one I found was the old one from the original Necromunda plastic weapons sprue.
The old close combat weapon sprue for Marines had one on so marine players from 2nd usually had a god number lying around.
Honestly like 10-15% of the gun holding hands in the 4th gen box are stealer claws, almost all are human hands by a vast majority. And the ones that are claws, honestly it really couldn't be a simpler 'conversion' to get rid of it, about 15 seconds of work with clippers and a sanding strip.
malfred wrote:Thanks. So I just gotta wait for that sweet 350 dollar point.
FW was actually pretty damn reasonable shipping fed-ex to me in Canada, it was 3 pounds. I was actually kind of impressed if anything.
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Post by: Baxx
There has been some reports about announcements from facebook saying that the Escher weapon pdf is correct and overrides earlier publications. It contradicts earlier costs and even the FAQ for the Fear trait.
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Post by: malfred
MajorTom11 wrote:
malfred wrote:Thanks. So I just gotta wait for that sweet 350 dollar point.
FW was actually pretty damn reasonable shipping fed-ex to me in Canada, it was 3 pounds. I was actually kind of impressed if anything.
But...freeeeee
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Post by: Breotan
 H.B.M.C. wrote: Breotan wrote:So much for my hope of getting a right hand stub pistol for my Goliaths.
You didn't think the Escher set would contain weapons for the Goliaths, did you?
I was just lamenting that there was no release for Goliaths given they were also in the main box. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy they released the Escher upgrades, it's just given how long they take between releases I'll be stuck with my hatchet-job conversions for the foreseeable future. :(
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Post by: Waaagh_Gonads
I’ve sourced 1mmx1mm rare earth doc magnets for the Escher arms and have already put 2mm magnets in the body sockets for the arms. I was just waiting to see if these kits would be all shoulder attachments, which they are.
Very happy.
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Post by: ZoBo
 Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I’ve sourced 1mmx1mm rare earth doc magnets for the Escher arms and have already put 2mm magnets in the body sockets for the arms. I was just waiting to see if these kits would be all shoulder attachments, which they are.
Very happy.
oooh...you can get 1mmx1mm?? smallest I've seen is 2mmx1mm...
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Post by: Lord Fishface
I’d be much more tolerant of the profusion of Hand Flamers in the Escher upgrade packs if we could get a clarification as to whether they should have the ‘pistol’ trait.
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Post by: trojax
 Lord Fishface wrote:I’d be much more tolerant of the profusion of Hand Flamers in the Escher upgrade packs if we could get a clarification as to whether they should have the ‘pistol’ trait.
Why would that need further clarification? they clearly don't have the pistol trait under the trait heading in any released material regardless of whether or not they are listed under pistols in the wargear sections.
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Post by: Baxx
Traditionally template weapons don't mix well with close combat. We can now use fire dice in close combat, but it is not likely (in my opinion) that any template weapons (just hand flamer relevant for now) will be allowed in close combat.
Would be more interesting to see a ruling about dual vielding hand flamers.
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Post by: Lord Fishface
trojax wrote: Lord Fishface wrote:I’d be much more tolerant of the profusion of Hand Flamers in the Escher upgrade packs if we could get a clarification as to whether they should have the ‘pistol’ trait.
Why would that need further clarification? they clearly don't have the pistol trait under the trait heading in any released material regardless of whether or not they are listed under pistols in the wargear sections.
Because they’re ****ing pistols?
It’s almost a side issue when the best Escher build is essentially a Guard squad, but Hand Flamers might just be vaguely worth buying if they could be used with TGB.
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Post by: Baxx
They can be bought from the pistol category, but doesn't have the pistol trait. If weapon categories and traits mean anything, this actually makes sense for a Hand Flamer. For example: It can be bought by fighter who has access to pistols, but it can't be used in close combat (too many problems with the template).
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Post by: Lord Fishface
Baxx wrote:They can be bought from the pistol category, but doesn't have the pistol trait. If weapon categories and traits mean anything, this actually makes sense for a Hand Flamer. For example: It can be bought by fighter who has access to pistols, but it can't be used in close combat (too many problems with the template).
It’s certainly possible that’s the writers’ intention; if the rules weren’t rife with other obvious errors I wouldn’t have questioned it.
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Post by: Grot 6
Most of the time the hand flamers were some of the best at running people out of cover and that template did a great job of covering hand to hands at the last minute saves of death or glory. If you were lucky you could actually use it without it exploding on you.
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Post by: Chopstick
Lord Fishface wrote:
It’s almost a side issue when the best Escher build is essentially a Guard squad, but Hand Flamers might just be vaguely worth buying if they could be used with TGB.
Pistol trait is not needed for Twin Gun Blazing, the description of it say it allow you to make a close combat attack if you have that trait. Hand Flamer is a useless weapon in CC anyway.
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Post by: trojax
Lord Fishface wrote:trojax wrote: Lord Fishface wrote:I’d be much more tolerant of the profusion of Hand Flamers in the Escher upgrade packs if we could get a clarification as to whether they should have the ‘pistol’ trait.
Why would that need further clarification? they clearly don't have the pistol trait under the trait heading in any released material regardless of whether or not they are listed under pistols in the wargear sections.
Because they’re ****ing pistols?
It’s almost a side issue when the best Escher build is essentially a Guard squad, but Hand Flamers might just be vaguely worth buying if they could be used with TGB.
Oh, sorry. I thought they where "hand flamers"
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Don't be disingenuous.
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Post by: trojax
I'm not. They are not pistols, they do not have the pistol trait, what is disingenuous about that? The most I'll give you is that they maybe should have not called the pistol section of the armoury pistols, maybe they should have called it hand weapons or short range weapons but to claim something that isn't called a pistol and does not have the pistol trait as a pistol is what I would consider disingenuous.
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Post by: Ronin_eX
Man, those Van Saar are better than I thought they would be (even if they did drop the Dune aesthetic of the originals).
The more hardcore, industrial look is a pretty natural fit for them and I like I'll be honest, the style looks less faux-anime and more like something that lept from the pages of one of the various 2000AD properties. This is one thing where I'm loving the visual diversity this game allows, because it is letting 40k tap back in to some old-school aesthetic wells that they haven't been able to since back in 2nd Edition, before all Imperial stuff had to be over-ornamented and Gothic. These are designs that would be at home if Rogue Trader's more bald faced 2000AD with the serial numbers filed off aesthetics had continued to the modern day. Either way, I bloody love 'em and they're a definite purchase for me when they go up for pre-order.
That said, that paint scheme isn't doing them any justice. The combo of colours and the flat colouring on the faces just doesn't do the minis justice. Luckily you can see past the subpar studio scheme to the nice lines below. Those things are going to be a joy to paint.
Probably still not buying in to the current edition of Necro until they give it a proper omnibus treatment, but I'm sure as hell buying a few boxes of those minis to use for other things (up to and including Old Necromunda games).
If nothing else, the gang redesigns have looked stellar so far, and make great fodder for any number of small skirmish wargames, so this is really a win/win for the hobby as a whole.
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Post by: Dysartes
trojax wrote:I'm not. They are not pistols, they do not have the pistol trait, what is disingenuous about that? The most I'll give you is that they maybe should have not called the pistol section of the armoury pistols, maybe they should have called it hand weapons or short range weapons but to claim something that isn't called a pistol and does not have the pistol trait as a pistol is what I would consider disingenuous.
Hardly disingenuous when they've been treated as a pistol in every other incarnation of the "Hand Flamer" weapon I can think of.
AFAIK they worked for the Pistol/ CCW bonus attack in 7th ed 40k, back in 2nd ed 40k, and in previous versions of Necromunda. That is why this red flags as a "Is this deliberate?" moment - because, if it is a change, it is a break from the established set-up of the weapon, and it hasn't been clearly explained.
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Post by: Januine
The new van Saar sculpts Remind me of the praetorians in Altered Carbon. Much like
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Post by: Baxx
 Dysartes wrote:trojax wrote:I'm not. They are not pistols, they do not have the pistol trait, what is disingenuous about that? The most I'll give you is that they maybe should have not called the pistol section of the armoury pistols, maybe they should have called it hand weapons or short range weapons but to claim something that isn't called a pistol and does not have the pistol trait as a pistol is what I would consider disingenuous.
Hardly disingenuous when they've been treated as a pistol in every other incarnation of the "Hand Flamer" weapon I can think of. AFAIK they worked for the Pistol/ CCW bonus attack in 7th ed 40k, back in 2nd ed 40k, and in previous versions of Necromunda. That is why this red flags as a "Is this deliberate?" moment - because, if it is a change, it is a break from the established set-up of the weapon, and it hasn't been clearly explained.
I don't remember hand flamers was used in close combat in old Necromunda or 40k 2nd edition. But that is a long time ago... I would guess it required some except for the template rule, as that would quickly get messy.
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Post by: Chopstick
Hand flamer in old munda was FAQ'ed to be unusable in close combat. And in that game it actuay had a decent stat. But still not a very good purchase because one-use only.
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
IIRC in 2nd edition 40k, you could use a hand flamer in close combat, but it didn’t use the template. Necromunda would have been the same. The template was only 4” long, so not much of a loss. It would still set people on fire.
It wasn’t single shot in 1st edition Necromunda, but it did make an ammo roll every time it fired.
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Post by: Baxx
Ahh that sounds about right! Would have been fun to see the mini flamer template again, but I can understand why that was lost aeons ago for streamlining (and extremely short range).
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Post by: lord_blackfang
In my campaign I'm totally using the 4" template, but at full Flamer strength, and usable in CC (without placing the template).
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
AndrewGPaul wrote:IIRC in 2nd edition 40k, you could use a hand flamer in close combat, but it didn’t use the template. Necromunda would have been the same. The template was only 4” long, so not much of a loss. It would still set people on fire.
It wasn’t single shot in 1st edition Necromunda, but it did make an ammo roll every time it fired.
In 2nd Edition & Necromunda hand flamers could be used in close combat, but the template wasn't used. I believe that it was assumed that your opponent took the burnt of the attack.
There were single shot flame weapons in Necromunda, which were specific to the Redemptionist faction. I think they were called Exterminators, and they were usually affixed to another weapon (lasgun, autogun, shotgun, Eviscerator)
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Exterminators were fun. Looking forward to them making a comeback.
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Post by: notprop
Hand Flamers were small template and CC in original Necromunda. This followed the RT rules.
They became one shot Flamers (normal template) in Necromunda: Underhive and NCE. No CC as ther would be too dangerous to the user.
Not sure what the heck they are now...
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Post by: Dysartes
Not clear enough, apparently
Maybe one to send to the FAQ email address?
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
 notprop wrote:Hand Flamers were small template and CC in original Necromunda. This followed the RT rules.
They became one shot Flamers (normal template) in Necromunda: Underhive and NCE. No CC as ther would be too dangerous to the user. .
Ah, so for the majority of Necromunda's existence, hand flamers have not been useable in melee.
The single shot rule in the Fanatic edition was to compensate for them suddenly using the medium flame template (the rules changed so that players only needed templates and dice available in 40k and WFB at the time - hence no Sustained Fire dice. Even Epic Armageddon changed from using 6cm diameter templates to 3" diameter ones).
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Time for some Goliath Weapons! There are three... three? Oh FFS... *ahem* three weapon packs! Here are, perplexity, pics of two of the sets:     If you look closely you'll see that there are zero other-handed stubguns, zero one-handed stub cannons, no las weapons to speak of, or autoguns, a hammer that is in the same pose/position as the current hammer we already have (so that's good... I guess?), no other-handed combat-shotguns, and a good amount of arms holding no weapons, which I presume has some sort of use... and yeah. Still, far better than the Escher sets. You won't end up with more Hand Flamers than Gangers if you buy all three (I presume). And bolt pistols, and at least one bolt gun. That's nice! The Heavy Flamer is fething awesome. I love that.
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Post by: Elbows
Nice modeling, but I'm not buying into the half-Forgeworld game premise here.
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Post by: MajorTom11
Eh... another miss for me. Not digging the way these weapon packs have been done - no las, no autos, no offhand shotguns, repeated hammer for no reason (we already had a spare), heavy weapons with the same pose (unlike eschers), empty hands because why?
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Post by: Haighus
The off-hands are actually some of the best bits of the kit- they open more modelling options. However, it is a bit pointless without also including weapons that have no hand attached, that can be hung from belts, backpacks etc. Not every ganger needs to be shooting at that moment, but it needs to have the weapons you give it still.
I like the bolt-weapons, the shotgun and the underslung special weapons. Most the melee weapons are decent too. Dunno why they repeated weapons like the hammer, when there is more of a need for weapons like las/auto/stub stuff I feel. The heavy weapons (aside from the heavy bolter) also look a bit... off.
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Post by: Yodhrin
Yeah, not feeling these at all TBH.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I really like them, except I don't understand A). why there are three of them and B). why there are so many redundant pieces.
Again, when these weapon packs were described to me the impression I got was that they would allow gangs to field basically any weapon combination, and were a way of 'making up for' (so to speak) the limited space on the plastic sprues.
But with so many blank hands, repeated weapons and a real lack of basic variety, I don't see what they're doing. These are better than the Escher kits, which could've done with an extra autogun and shotgun here and there rather than every set coming with 2 Hand Flamers, a Flamer and a Plasma Gun (or meltagun), but they're still weird.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
I think they're worse than Eschers.
Zero auto, las or stub weaponry, 1 whole shotgun, mirrored plastic poses for the hammer and axe and no other signature weapons. And the axes are glaringly more plain-looking than the plastics... like they're actually just axes and not brute cleavers and renderizers. No spud-jackers, either.
At least the Eschers had a healthy (if eccentric) variety of stuff and a needler pistol and rifle in every set.
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Post by: Da Butcha
I'm really disappointed by the omission of holstered/scabbarded/slung weapons, more than anything else. I'd buy a whole SPRUE of those. It's particularly infuriating for Stub Cannons, which don't evidently REQUIRE a two-handed grip, but yet always seem to be in one. I like all of the weapons options I've seen (though I saw three sprues in pics from some Open Day or something), but, darn it, I wanted some slung weapons!
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Post by: Hanksingle
These are pretty lame. Suspicious-Of-GW me feels like someone mapped out one good set of spare weapons, and then spread it out over multiple sets, in hopes that folk will give up and buy the lot. Doesn't feel like there's much utility or value, here.
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Post by: Albertorius
I feel the same way I felt with the Escher ones: one look at the sets and suddenly I don't want to buy weapon sets no more. If this is what they want to offer (and in resin, no less) I'll make my own stuff, thank you very much.
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Post by: Grot 6
I'll go one better and say to use the weapons from the IG, Old Weapons, or anything else on any other sprue.
Looks like I have to get my Gear from a Warhammer store, In the states, do they still order stuff through GW stores, and you can pick it up there, o have them send it to your house?
I picked up gang war 2 and a box of Orlocks. Not bad, and the way that the figures are super broken down leads to some Top Tier level models. Each guy is his own load-out, and th figures really look to take well to add ons from any other sprues you have.
I'm happy with the figures, even if some of the rules are a little more extensive then honestly need to be. Seriously, GW, get your head out of your fourth point of Contact and simplify some of this stuff.... You are going to lose people if this trend continues.
Echoing the sentiment of the weapons sets, K.I.S.S. please!!!!
Verdun, and resin bits, and old Tamiya kit load out for 1/35 or 54 mm figures still is your best bet, even now where they make the old technique that much easier.
All in all, Way to Go, GW... I hate to say it, but the figures are really a great improvement from what I ever expected them to develop into.
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Post by: Irbis
These are easily the best feature of this pack. The melta/flamer/ HB harness not only looks ace, it showcases the strength of Goliaths in a way better than any slapping of exaggerated muscle on the sculpt ever could. I wish SM had the same one handed gun poses with the other hand free/holding a knife, the 'chest grab' thing has gotten really old by now. The design is really nice, too, bolters easily look far more refined than ones SM use, combi-guns look like they actually could work (no teleporting ammo or spent casing windows in dumb places), this set has nice value for a really broad range of conversions!
Though, yeah, I don't get FW fixation on melee weapons, more shotguns/lasguns would be nice too. Maybe they are in the third pack though (yeah, I know...)?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Hands holding nothing is the best feature of the pack?
 Irbis wrote:The melta/flamer/ HB harness not only looks ace, it showcases the strength of Goliaths in a way better than any slapping of exaggerated muscle on the sculpt ever could.
I don't see what that has to do with blank hands...
I wanted some one-handed stubcannons. They'd be nice.
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Post by: Vorian
What's up with empty hands? They are useful.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Feed it back, folks.
They've included female sculpts on the Van Saar due to feedback. Seems they would've included it on Goliath and Orlock, but were too far along production to make the change - but they'll get those as Resin expansions.
They're listening. Speak to them.
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Post by: Clockpunk
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Feed it back, folks.
They've included female sculpts on the Van Saar due to feedback. Seems they would've included it on Goliath and Orlock, but were too far along production to make the change - but they'll get those as Resin expansions.
They're listening. Speak to them.
Really? Has that been confirmed? Be fantastic if so - the female Orlock ganger artwork in Gand War 2 looked great, and would be a welcome addition.
But I recall them speaking about resin add-on positional packs for Blood Bowl teams that would potentially include female players a whole year ago, and that hasn't borne any fruit (yet...)
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Yup. Comment regarding it is on their FB page. Somewhere. Don't think I had the foresight to take a screen grab!
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Post by: MonkeyBallistic
Very true! Empty hands are surprisingly hard to find too.
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Post by: Desubot
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Yup. Comment regarding it is on their FB page. Somewhere. Don't think I had the foresight to take a screen grab!
How long ago was the feed back. these molds take quite a while to get done. if these were finished years ago then ima call BS on that. unless technology has caught up that they can pump these molds out in like months. Also empty hands are indeed very useful. though personally id rather do full plastic kit bashes anyway.
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Post by: Clockpunk
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Yup. Comment regarding it is on their FB page. Somewhere. Don't think I had the foresight to take a screen grab!
Awesome sauce! Thank you for the heads up, shall see if I can track it down, ^_^
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Post by: Overread
New models don't necessarily take years to go from concept to model - Sisters of Battle are looking to be made end of this year for release next year -so that suggests a 12 month or less turn around time. Many a KS group has, with much smaller teams, made multiple models and moulds in well under a year
A lot will also depend on size and complexity of the model and experience of the model designer. Other things like additional projects and workload will also come into play as will a likely few chokepoints like design meetings or how many staff are trained in parting models for the moulds as well as testing of the moulds etc...
That said I would expect GW to measure new models in months not years when it comes to actual design to production and if its the focus of a person or team. What might stretch out releases is fitting them into existing release time frames; other projects; workload etc.... Ergo its likely that with GW the greatest slowdown is other work and other releases already scheduled.
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Post by: Cannibal
I'm super excited for the empty hands. I don't always want my models clutching something all the time.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Desubot wrote: Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Yup. Comment regarding it is on their FB page. Somewhere. Don't think I had the foresight to take a screen grab!
How long ago was the feed back.
these molds take quite a while to get done.
if these were finished years ago then ima call BS on that.
unless technology has caught up that they can pump these molds out in like months.
Also empty hands are indeed very useful. though personally id rather do full plastic kit bashes anyway.
It doesn't take months to create the model or to go from model to mould, never has.
What does take months is finding a production slot. That's always been a problem for GW because they have so many moulds and relatively few machines. (remember that you lose a day's production switching moulds and setting up the machine for the new one) That's what delayed Eldar jetbikes (just for example) for so long.
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Post by: Desubot
 Scott-S6 wrote: Desubot wrote: Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Yup. Comment regarding it is on their FB page. Somewhere. Don't think I had the foresight to take a screen grab!
How long ago was the feed back.
these molds take quite a while to get done.
if these were finished years ago then ima call BS on that.
unless technology has caught up that they can pump these molds out in like months.
Also empty hands are indeed very useful. though personally id rather do full plastic kit bashes anyway.
It doesn't take months to create the model or to go from model to mould, never has.
What does take months is finding a production slot. That's always been a problem for GW because they have so many moulds and relatively few machines. (remember that you lose a day's production switching moulds and setting up the machine for the new one) That's what delayed Eldar jetbikes (just for example) for so long.
ah i always assumed they just took a while or was already done years ago.
recalling how some "recent" kits was dated a year backwards when it was released (on the spure it self)
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Post by: Irbis
Yes. Look at Deathwatch, they look amazing next to other SM as they finally learned to not chest clutch their bolters. It makes for some really nice poses, but then you run into dumb problem of DW sprue not having enough empty hands (or anything, really, besides power swords) for the other arm. Having that in the pack naturally, without hassle of combing through bit sites (or fishing for leftover left hands in SM kits with chest clutch problem and trying to greenstuff them into natural pose), is really saving time and money/effort. I am so sick of painting chest clutchers in stages to make them look any good I'll take any break I can from that.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Desubot wrote: Scott-S6 wrote: Desubot wrote: Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Yup. Comment regarding it is on their FB page. Somewhere. Don't think I had the foresight to take a screen grab!
How long ago was the feed back.
these molds take quite a while to get done.
if these were finished years ago then ima call BS on that.
unless technology has caught up that they can pump these molds out in like months.
Also empty hands are indeed very useful. though personally id rather do full plastic kit bashes anyway.
It doesn't take months to create the model or to go from model to mould, never has.
What does take months is finding a production slot. That's always been a problem for GW because they have so many moulds and relatively few machines. (remember that you lose a day's production switching moulds and setting up the machine for the new one) That's what delayed Eldar jetbikes (just for example) for so long.
ah i always assumed they just took a while or was already done years ago.
recalling how some "recent" kits was dated a year backwards when it was released (on the spure it self)
There is definitely a situation where moulds are ready but they're just too busy making more of existing models to make something new so the mould sits unused for ages.
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Post by: Chopstick
Empty hands are useless when the most basic weapon arm (that is actually needed) are missing :right hand stubgun, left hand combi-plasma, right hand shotgun, how about a left hand grenade launcher? Why are all the 1 handed special weapon right?
Are these designers even play the game?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Irbis wrote:Yes. Look at Deathwatch, they look amazing next to other SM as they finally learned to not chest clutch their bolters. It makes for some really nice poses, but then you run into dumb problem of DW sprue not having enough empty hands (or anything, really, besides power swords) for the other arm. Having that in the pack naturally, without hassle of combing through bit sites (or fishing for leftover left hands in SM kits with chest clutch problem and trying to greenstuff them into natural pose), is really saving time and money/effort. I am so sick of painting chest clutchers in stages to make them look any good I'll take any break I can from that.
Again, not really talking about "chest clutchers". Talking about hands that don't have any weapons at all. They seem like something that could have been better used for increased variety - more of the basic Necro weapons especially (Las/Stub/Autopistol & Las/Auto/Shotguns)
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Post by: Commissar Benny
Do we know when they will be releasing the Orlock alternative weapons? We've seen them, so we know they are made. I'm just patiently waiting for the new weapons to come out before putting my Orlocks together.
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Post by: Trafalgar Law
Chopstick wrote:Empty hands are useless when the most basic weapon arm (that is actually needed) are missing :right hand stubgun, left hand combi-plasma, right hand shotgun, how about a left hand grenade launcher? Why are all the 1 handed special weapon right?
Are these designers even play the game?
I'd agree this is the main issue with the pack. Also why are all the 1 handed special weapons in the same basic pose with the barrel pointing towards the floor? Why aren't any of them in aiming poses or with the gun pointing up?
The Escher pack is only slightly better in this regard. They did get right handed Autopistols and Plasma pistols but no right handed combi-bolter or one without the leaders coat sculpted to it. No left handed shock whip or one without the leaders coat. No one handed shotguns or autoguns. No power knife model either. Instead they got an arsenal of hand flamers???
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Maybe they feel that the game is balanced with the gangs largely armed with the weapons as they are, and providing a bunch of the 'missing' weapons would lead to power gaming?
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Post by: Trafalgar Law
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:Maybe they feel that the game is balanced with the gangs largely armed with the weapons as they are, and providing a bunch of the 'missing' weapons would lead to power gaming?
I think that's unlikely seeing as the packs have added loads of special and Heavy weapons to the mix while it's the basic weapons and pistols that are largely absent.
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Post by: zamerion
From warhammer french forum (google translate)
I have the WD since Tuesday but did not have time and I did not understand some passages.
In short to summarize some points the leader is called "demagogue" and there are 2 types of champion: disciple and sorcerer, the latter can use a power chosen from 5.
The cultists (gangers) have little choice of equipment, those of dark revenge: pisto gunner, shotgun, autogun, machine gun and flamethrower in heavy weapons and for the cac: baton / mass / hammer, flail, sword and the flawless claw found on one of the champions of DV.
In equipment, we find flak armor, respirator and photolunettes. For grenades it's frag and krak.
At the level of primary skills it is "ruse" and "ferocity" for the demagogue, the followers, the specialists and "cunning" and "knowing" for the wizard.
In game a cultist can be changed into a child of chaos and skirmish you can buy up to 2 for 130 each.
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Post by: decker_cky
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:Maybe they feel that the game is balanced with the gangs largely armed with the weapons as they are, and providing a bunch of the 'missing' weapons would lead to power gaming?
If there's a powergaming concern regarding Lasguns/pistols and autogun/pistols, then failing to allow you to start with them has zero impact. You just take unequipped gangers game 1, then buy the common equipment from the trading post. All you have to do is throw an unequiped juve in the line of fire, then bottle after a single casualty.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Trafalgar Law wrote:
I'd agree this is the main issue with the pack. Also why are all the 1 handed special weapons in the same basic pose with the barrel pointing towards the floor? Why aren't any of them in aiming poses or with the gun pointing up?
Because, like new Necromunda rules themselves, they were done over a lunch break one Friday by digitally copy pasting different guns on existing arm poses.
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Post by: Baxx
Looking forward to see the rules here. We'll see a greatly extended Goliath house list. An official bolter (not gangs of legend pdf). And I assume a bunch of random changes to costs and stats.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
zamerion wrote:The cultists (gangers) have little choice of equipment, those of dark revenge: pisto gunner, shotgun, autogun, machine gun and flamethrower in heavy weapons and for the cac: baton / mass / hammer, flail, sword and the flawless claw found on one of the champions of DV.
And no model/no rule hits Necromunda. Hard.
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Post by: decker_cky
H.B.M.C. wrote:zamerion wrote:The cultists (gangers) have little choice of equipment, those of dark revenge: pisto gunner, shotgun, autogun, machine gun and flamethrower in heavy weapons and for the cac: baton / mass / hammer, flail, sword and the flawless claw found on one of the champions of DV.
And no model/no rule hits Necromunda. Hard.
Rumour is that the WD gang is a get you by list, and a more fulsome chaos gang will come later.
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Post by: Baxx
Where is that rumour from? I heard it about Genestealer cult, but never heard it about chaos before.
Maybe we'll see a return/remake of all WD gangs in some future Outlanders book?
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Post by: lord_blackfang
*le sigh*
Got my two #2 Escher packs. Broken needle rifle in one, broken needle pistol in the other.
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Post by: Tyr13
... I just buil my needle rifle with the nozzle from the combibolter and a scope on a lasgun. Looks basically identical...
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Post by: Mr_Rose
 Tyr13 wrote:... I just buil my needle rifle with the nozzle from the combibolter and a scope on a lasgun. Looks basically identical...
Me too. I also replaced the magazine/battery with a ‘tank’ made from a krak grenade but yeah, lasguns and needle rifles have a lot in common.
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Post by: reds8n
... chaos cult gangs rules are coming it seems :
1
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Post by: godardc
Translation:
battle report forgebane
new rules: Chaos cult gangs
a new threat coming from the deeps of the realms
battlefields: sceneries in the Death realm
Middle Earth: campaign of the last alliance
Warhammer underworlds en matched games (organised games, litteraly, so I guess it is matched game)
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Post by: Chopstick
Van Saar hopefully in May.
And Slaanesh Cultist OP
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Post by: godardc
I don't understand: +2 if the ritual is being made by the demagogue but you can't pick him in the deck ?
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Post by: AduroT
 godardc wrote:I don't understand: +2 if the ritual is being made by the demagogue but you can't pick him in the deck ?
I believe you can choose it to be him, but if you don’t he can’t be picked at random.
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Post by: warl0rdb0b
Its +2 if hes spending the post battle action to perform the ritual I believe.
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Post by: godardc
A French guy having the Whte Dwarf wrote that cultists have access to heavy flamer, shotgun, autogun, autopistol, machine gun, "griffe écorcheuse" (scratching claw / flayer claw ? one of the DV champion has it), clubs/ mauls / bludgeon, scourge, sword, flak armor, respirator, photoglasses, frag and krak grenades.
Ruse / trickery and knowledge for the witch and ruse / trickery and ferocity for all the others
In game, a cultist may turn into a chaos spawn (didn't say how) and in skirmishs you can buy up to 2 for 130 each.
Sorry for the names of the weapons and skills, sometimes they dontt match in English and French, and my Necromunda rulesbook is in French too, I don't know how they are labelled in English.
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Post by: Baxx
I always thought it was a flamer, not a heavy flamer. The weapon doesn't look very "heavy".
The "machine gun" you're reffering to is the heavy stubber. No doubt those rules are based on what the models have. Too bad the Chaos cultists characters (shotgun/heavy stubber/flamer/axe) aren't available any more. Guess it will good times for people selling at ebay again (Same with Aberrants one month ago). GW missing out on money?
The rules look fun, but there's of course a few bloopers in there:
-Forgot to add price for Chaos Spawn outside Skirmish games.
-Forgot to mention that Lead Ritual is a post-battle action (it is only indirectly described as such).
-Heavy Flamer now is Unwieldy?
-Maul 5 times more expensive?
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Post by: Crimson
decker_cky wrote: OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:Maybe they feel that the game is balanced with the gangs largely armed with the weapons as they are, and providing a bunch of the 'missing' weapons would lead to power gaming?
If there's a powergaming concern regarding Lasguns/pistols and autogun/pistols, then failing to allow you to start with them has zero impact. You just take unequipped gangers game 1, then buy the common equipment from the trading post. All you have to do is throw an unequiped juve in the line of fire, then bottle after a single casualty.
Indeed. You should be able to arm your gangers with any common trading post items from get go, as you can have them after the first game anyway. It is just awkward to have unarmed and probably not WYSIWYG confoming gangers for one game.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
And given the expanded Escher armoury, with others sure to follow along with their weapon packs, we can safely conclude the whole wargear thing is a case of drip-feeding us content and a bit of "no model, no rules" thrown in for good measure, rather than any balance concern, which is always a laughable theory when GW is involved, anwyay.
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Post by: Baxx
I glue my models so if a fighter is armed with a lasgun by the (false) Emperor I'm gonna buy it!
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Post by: zedmeister
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Is it an Ambull in a metal suit? Is it a bionically enhanced creature? Or it is some insane tinkerer’s attempt to create an entirely artificial analogue for the creature? It’s going to be a while before we get the chance to find out for sure, but we had to share this fantastic concept art with you. The Ambot will be among the many delights in store in Gang War III. We don’t know about you, but we really don’t like the idea of turning a corner and facing one of these things…
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Just realized that Ambull is a pun (amble).
Somehow in 20+ years never noticed.
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Post by: Yodhrin
I hope if that's the heavy mining 'bot-thing they mentioned it's a specific "hero" version of it that's been customised by its owning gang/character, because TBH I don't see the Imperium - even the evidently quite lax and distant Imperium of Necromunda - being cool-beans with robots designed to look like filthy xenos.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Well they posted that on 02/04, so it's not an April Fool's... I think.
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Post by: His Master's Voice
Yodhrin wrote:I hope if that's the heavy mining 'bot-thing they mentioned it's a specific "hero" version of it that's been customised by its owning gang/character, because TBH I don't see the Imperium - even the evidently quite lax and distant Imperium of Necromunda - being cool-beans with robots designed to look like filthy xenos.
Looks like a standard Imperial design (the legs, torso and arms all use the same design traits you can find in Knights or AdMech walkers) that was retroactively modified to look like an ambull.
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Post by: BjornRuss
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Post by: Nicorex
What Gang symbol is painted on it?
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Post by: Dryaktylus
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Post by: His Master's Voice
The Escher eye and daggers.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
I rather like that,
Reckon I’d prefer an honest to goodness Ambull, but still liking the robo approach.
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Yodhrin wrote:I hope if that's the heavy mining 'bot-thing they mentioned it's a specific "hero" version of it that's been customised by its owning gang/character, because TBH I don't see the Imperium - even the evidently quite lax and distant Imperium of Necromunda - being cool-beans with robots designed to look like filthy xenos.
The Imperium's beef with Xenos is towards sentient, civilization-building Xenos, not animals.
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Post by: Chopstick
Look like a copycat of the 30k mechanicum robot.
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Post by: Ruglud
Could see this evolving into underhive robot combat, ala 'rock 'em sock 'em robots... Just need a few ABC Warriors thrown into the mix...
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
In those colours, there's a hint of the Insecticon about it. The robot version is probably to avoid getting sued by Hasbro (since the Ambull is basically an Umber Hulk knockoff).
I want one.
Oh, a sneaky Ciaphas Cain reference in the article. Well done.
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Post by: GoatboyBeta
Escher robot Ambul? Unexpected seems like one heck of an understatement. I wonder how big this thing is going to be?
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Post by: Galas
 His Master's Voice wrote: Yodhrin wrote:I hope if that's the heavy mining 'bot-thing they mentioned it's a specific "hero" version of it that's been customised by its owning gang/character, because TBH I don't see the Imperium - even the evidently quite lax and distant Imperium of Necromunda - being cool-beans with robots designed to look like filthy xenos.
Looks like a standard Imperial design (the legs, torso and arms all use the same design traits you can find in Knights or AdMech walkers) that was retroactively modified to look like an ambull.
Yeah, if you remove those parts below his head that look like the Ambull's jaws, he looks like a normal imperial robot.
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Post by: Mr_Rose
GoatboyBeta wrote:Escher robot Ambul? Unexpected seems like one heck of an understatement. I wonder how big this thing is going to be?
For the moment it might be best to think “robot Ambull with Escher gang tags” instead. There were rumours a while back that there would be generic “brutes” available as well as possibly house-specific ones, and ‘pets’ too. This just might be the first of several.
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Post by: Barzam
Wouldn't a mining "robot" be better suited to the Orlocks? Don't they run the hive's mining operations while the Escher handle chemical productions?
I would think this robot is actually some kind of servitor, considering the Imperium's fear of AI and robots. I've been wanting to see more mechanical looking servitors like this for a while. It's nice to see one finally show up.
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Post by: JimmyWolf87
Doesn't the Head section of the robot-servitor thing match up with the new Van-Saar masks? So presumably manufactured by them and their STC and this one happens to have been 'repurposed' by an Escher gang?
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Post by: Mr Morden
Thats............very wierd.
Loads of points for the CC reference though
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Post by: Ashran
Yodhrin wrote:I hope if that's the heavy mining 'bot-thing they mentioned it's a specific "hero" version of it that's been customised by its owning gang/character, because TBH I don't see the Imperium - even the evidently quite lax and distant Imperium of Necromunda - being cool-beans with robots designed to look like filthy xenos.
To be fair, I don't think the imperium has ever had an issue with xeno fauna. I could be wrong, but any xeno creature with animal intelligence seems to often be...Just what it is, an animal on a different world. Despite this thing being bipedal-ish looking, it's still pretty squarely in the "wild animal"/"fauna" realm, just like grox which the setting essentially treats as scaly, alien cattle, Of course, I think if anything, people would be more offended by the willful use of machinery/ingenuity without the sanctity of the omnissiah's blessing (and possibly the cardinal sin of creating an abhorrent intelligence if there's no actual organic ambull in the center of it all)
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Post by: Theophony
Maybe it’s a robot that had chemical pheromone dispensers to attract other Ambuls. Use it to “guide” where the ambul dig/ mine and get free labor in hazardous areas.
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Post by: notprop
Escher have acces to off world animals for furs and stuff so why not Ambulls I guess....so robot Ambulls too.l as well it seems.
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Post by: BrookM
I'm in agreement that it is built locally by the Van Saar techs and either sold or stolen by the Escher gangers to be used as extra muscle.
It would make for a fun model to use in a heist scenario, where the gang burrows through a wall or cellar into a stronghold to make away with the Wild Snake or Mung vase.
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Post by: schoon
I have to say, that's one of the misty unusual and interesting models I've seen for 40K in a while.
While, I have to have one, I'm still not 100% sure I like it. It will depend on how that at translates into resin.
Bravo GW for taking some chances.
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Post by: Chopstick
Chaos cult look great, equipment list is kinda boring but the ganger only cost 35 credit.
Oh and Heavy stubber is now 5+ ammo, could you stop GW?
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Post by: ritualnet
I wish that ambull robot was a real ambull. Bleh.
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Post by: warl0rdb0b
I'd like to see a bot based on the Vorax chassis, that would be pretty interesting, maybe a mining laser and scoop hands?
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
Perhaps they don't want to be on the other end of a C&D? The ambull is basically a knockoff of the D&D Umber Hulk, after all.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Ah but the Umber Hulk was one of the D&D monsters ripped of dime store plastic monsters (eg http://diterlizzi.com/essay/owlbears-rust-monsters-and-bulettes-oh-my/)
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
But it was considered "Product identity", and thus not something released under the OGL in 3rd edition. It seems that WotC now consider it theirs.
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Post by: Strg Alt
godardc wrote:I don't understand: +2 if the ritual is being made by the demagogue but you can't pick him in the deck ?
The demagogue can´t be picked to act as a vessel because he is not stupid. If you roll snake eyes or a two or less after modifications then the vessel is screwed.
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Post by: AndrewGPaul
It looks to me that any "character" can use the Lead Ritual action in the post-battle sequence. If for instance the Demagogue is injured or you've sent him to do something else.
That could lead to the odd situation where a Disciple both leads and is the focus of a ritual, but so be it.
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Post by: Grot 6
Leave it to GW to take a perfectly good idea and turn it into a mindless money grab....
Just when you had hope that the game was going to come back with better sculpts, and some new information, they turn it into a drip-drip of less then stellar ideas and just throw spaghetti at the wall to hope something sticks.
A Ambull robot? Seriously?
The game is quickly being reintroduced from a welcome idea and hope for the future of the game, to something that is beginning to be dreaded, as you wonder who's idea of this reverse Midas touch this is.
Compare that to the having to chase around stuff throughout GW's holdings, and they are not impressing anyone, at this point.
At this point, it is becoming a game of waiting for the next shoe to drop on your head.
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Post by: Chairman Aeon
...or it's a way to do a back door Rogue Trader 2E. The rules are sloppy and the timeline is agonizing, but I'll take it over my other options.
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Post by: Vorian
Grot 6 wrote:Leave it to GW to take a perfectly good idea and turn it into a mindless money grab....
Just when you had hope that the game was going to come back with better sculpts, and some new information, they turn it into a drip-drip of less then stellar ideas and just throw spaghetti at the wall to hope something sticks.
A Ambull robot? Seriously?
The game is quickly being reintroduced from a welcome idea and hope for the future of the game, to something that is beginning to be dreaded, as you wonder who's idea of this reverse Midas touch this is.
Compare that to the having to chase around stuff throughout GW's holdings, and they are not impressing anyone, at this point.
At this point, it is becoming a game of waiting for the next shoe to drop on your head.
What an odd reaction. 
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Post by: Messiah
I really hope we get more cultist models as a sneaky release with this "expansion". Some of those options are not even available anymore..
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Post by: Baxx
I think these chaos cultists can be quite fun, but there are mistakes and I fear they can be too weak.
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Post by: Clockpunk
A shame that the cultists don't seem to have been used to introduce tainted weapons, that could potentially inflict lingering longer term damage on rivals - really make facing them an unpleasant prospect.
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Post by: jojo_monkey_boy
Grot 6 wrote:
Compare that to the having to chase around stuff throughout GW's holdings, and they are not impressing anyone, at this point.
Um... Yeah...
On another note, back at the last weekender they referred to a Luther Class mining bot as one of the brutes for hire. Looks like we're looking at art for one that has been purchased by an escher gang. Looks pretty boss. Who doesn't want more robots? People who don't like fun maybe? People who don't like change? Ahem.
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Post by: Albertorius
Maybe people who don't like the concept shown? Who knows.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Wish they’d just make an Ambull again!
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Post by: Irbis
JimmyWolf87 wrote:Doesn't the Head section of the robot-servitor thing match up with the new Van-Saar masks?
It also has identical chest cables, so, yeah...
Grot 6 wrote:Just when you had hope that the game was going to come back with better sculpts, and some new information, they turn it into a drip-drip of less then stellar ideas and just throw spaghetti at the wall to hope something sticks.
But it did, on both counts? And the ideas were pretty stellar so far, and I say it as someone who really dislikes dumb GW ideas half of the time
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Post by: Chikout
I for one am very happy to see the specialist team trying some stuff out of left field. Using the resin sculpts to explore the edges of the 40k universe is a fantastic idea. I really hope they keep this up in the future.
I am not sold on this particular concept yet, but for the most part I have been very impressed by the way the final sculpts have come out. I just wish they would hurry up and release some of the awesome sculpts we saw at the open day.
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Post by: streetsamurai
Wow this is bad. First thing from necro that looks like gak :(
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Post by: Oguhmek
Seems like I'm the only one who thinks it looks awesome? Lots of whining in this thread...
I'd love one of them for my Eschers, although I guess they will come with a hefty (credits) price tag.
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Post by: Mr Morden
We ran a Necromunda demo game with Ambull's at a Games Day back in the day.
Good fun.
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Post by: Mymearan
Looks great, fun idea and I will be getting one for my Escher.
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Post by: Clockpunk
I just wish FW would start releasing some more of the bounty hunters we have seen the minis for. The wait is excruciating...
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Post by: BrookM
From Regimental Standard: https://regimental-standard.com/2018/04/18/urgent-recall-of-nihilis-pattern-lasgun/
URGENT RECALL OF NIHILIS PATTERN LASGUN
Attention, Guardsmen!
The Regimental Standard this week brings you an urgent update regarding your lasgun! Following several complaints* from Guardsmen concerning their weapons, an investigation has revealed an operating fault in several lasguns built on Necromunda. The responsible parties have issued an important recall notice. Please consult it at your earliest possible convenience, once any operations involving your lasgun have come to a natural conclusion.
Spotting a Defective Weapon
In the event that the serial number of your weapon cannot be read, the following issues are commonplace to mistakenly issued Nihilis pattern lasguns:
– Above-average Combat Efficacy
– Temperamental Machine Spirit
– No Bayonet Attachment Point
– Unexpected Operator Hair Loss
– Unexpected Operator Death**
What To Do
To resolve your issue, simply return your Nihilis pattern lasgun to your regimental quartermaster. A replacement will be issued in 2-3 months, based on distance from nearest forge world and warp-time dilation on delivery vessels.
As a sign of our deepest contrition for this error, House Van Saar has issued your regiment with a set of almost-new plasma guns for your personal usage, specially locked to the overcharge setting to help you tackle the most dangerous foes.
We hope your regimental quartermasters will continue to choose House Van Saar products for your purging needs.
Remember, Guardsmen – your safety is our priority! We hope you receive both a new lasgun and a fittingly heroic death shortly.
* Usually, the punishment for such whinging would be flogging, but at present all disciplinary corps are otherwise engaged.
** Please note – operator death due to weapon failure does not make you eligible for martyr-class burial or family pension.
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Post by: Haighus
Hehehe.
I wonder how long until the Lexicanum page on lasguns is updated.
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Post by: AduroT
I might have to play Van Saar purely based on that slogan.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
That is a cool looking lasgun.
I hope that becomes the standard model.
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Post by: Theophony
So are the recalls real? I mean are they hoping some schmuck AM guy brings his real working lasgun in they tell him a new one will be sent to his platoon in the next 24-48 hours  and then running out the backdrop of the fake trade in location screaming sucker?
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Post by: Chopstick
This is why you only stick the to the pattern approved by the AM
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Post by: Cannibal
Wait, M35-M40? That's a 500 year product recall window!
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Post by: BrookM
Add another zero and we're good.
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Post by: zamerion
Maybe next week (28) preorder?
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Post by: Skinnereal
If an AM guardsman turned in a 5,000 year old lasgun for the recall, what would they do with it?
Hang it on the wall as a relic?
Strip it down for parts to spread the luck around?
Stick a gold-coloured shiny on it as an achievement badge?
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Post by: Pacific
Haha very good - have to say love the concept with the new Van Saar, it's definitely something a bit different.
Yes you have to think soon now!
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Post by: Grot 6
Still working on my chaos cult.
Does anyone have a good miniature of THIS guy?
1
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Post by: nels1031
Grot 6 wrote:Still working on my chaos cult.
Does anyone have a good miniature of THIS guy?
Necromancer from Mortis Engine or Zombie Cart?
With some green stuff to scar up the eyes, I guess.
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Post by: ecurtz
Bear clan mystic from Blood Rage? http://gmortschaotica.blogspot.com/2015/10/unboxing-blood-rage-mystics-of-midgard.html
Not sure how he'd scale with Necromunda, probably a bit tall and thin, but that might be ok.
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Post by: Chikout
Bloodbowl is 28th. Maybe the week after.
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Post by: Thargrim
Or even later than that, when they preview GW3 on their twitch channel then we'll know we're at the very least nearing the release. As of now we don't even know what the cover art for the book is and that's not a good sign, thus I don't think it will be releasing any sooner than the very end of next month. It seems they might release the blood bowl stuff alongside deepkin, but anything necromunda is still 3+ weeks away from what I can tell. I'm also irked with forgeworlds release schedule for necromunda, did they ever release the squat and water vampire characters? I don't think they did and it feels like ages ago they had those on display. Plus the goliaths are still waiting on their weapons, and god knows when Orlocks will get theirs. They seem to really struggle to release things, plus with the failure of the skullcracker mold (how'd they not see that coming) makes me wonder...
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Post by: zamerion
Twitch.
Orlock and GW2 was release with shadespire bands. This time it could be necro + BB.
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Post by: Chopstick
If next week stream is GW 3 preview then maybe. They probably want Van Saar out a few week before London GT
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Post by: zamerion
I was thinking about this.
If next week will be only BB, why speak about it one week before and not the same preorder week. Maybe because this week they will talk about necro.
they are just my supposition. jeje
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Post by: Chikout
The Deepkin are getting five weeks of pre-orders. The free art cards are part of a five card series. This is a very long release window for an AoS Army. It makes a lot more sense if we are getting Deepkin plus other stuff each week. I could imagine a week of Deepkin and bloodbowl, a week of Deepkin and van saar, and a week of Deepkin plus Harlequins. We should start to see info from the next white dwarf next weekend which will tell us more.
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Post by: Ghaz
According to Warhammer Community, the Van Saars go on preorder on the 28th.
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
Love those dice!
And oh dear....it’s payday on Monday!
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