caladancid wrote: I guess that solves whether LI is releasing by November 4.
wait…how…what? I’m out of the loop. How do people know these things?
/shakes fist at cloud
//naps
Each sunday around 6pm uk time gw reveals preorders for next saturday. Today loads of aos stuff. So we know 29.10 there's no LI preorders and thus earliest preorder date is 4.11. Which will be revealed week from now if that's the date.
caladancid wrote: I guess that solves whether LI is releasing by November 4.
wait…how…what? I’m out of the loop. How do people know these things?
/shakes fist at cloud
//naps
Each sunday around 6pm uk time gw reveals preorders for next saturday. Today loads of aos stuff. So we know 29.10 there's no LI preorders and thus earliest preorder date is 4.11. Which will be revealed week from now if that's the date.
And given the new two week preorder windows for all products (including ebooks lol), 4 Nov is out.
Eh we had stuff preorder while marine 2 week came so just because there's 2 week preorder(there's been more preorders announced every week since marines were announced) doesn't mean more preorders can't come.
caladancid wrote: I guess that solves whether LI is releasing by November 4.
wait…how…what? I’m out of the loop. How do people know these things?
/shakes fist at cloud
//naps
Each sunday around 6pm uk time gw reveals preorders for next saturday. Today loads of aos stuff. So we know 29.10 there's no LI preorders and thus earliest preorder date is 4.11. Which will be revealed week from now if that's the date.
Thank you tneva82 (and caladancid’s subsequent post) for taking the time to explain.
This is going to be pushing it close too christmas, so I may not bother pre-ordering at all.
Every year I've had multiple large orders get messed up having been made in November. My other half always orders quite a bit for club projects/gifts, and has to split things in to multiple €50 orders just to try and get something from the orders delivered on time.
We've spent weeks, and at one point months, chasing and chasing November orders because GW have the worst stock allocation system known to any retailer.
The only way around making sure I get something from this eventual pre-order is to order it from two of my local stores & GW direct. Then whoever actually gets allocated the stock first and sends it out, I cancel the other two orders.
It might be less annoying to wait until they finally restock everything when the hype has died down next year. Its hard to know with GW if the 'starter box' is exactly that, or just a one off hype set.
Maybe I'll settle for the tiles and not bother with any other models until local stores start selling them off cheap near the end of its life (Like I picked up most of AI on huge discount). The release is one of the most botched I think I've seen GW ever do. (Cursed City at least got released)
RexHavoc wrote: This is going to be pushing it close too christmas, so I may not bother pre-ordering at all.
Some of us have been speculating that the release might be timed to coincide with Black Friday - Nov 24th which would need a pre-order by Nov 18th. Another question is, will all LI release be pushed back to accommodate the delay? Or will the first two scheduled releases happen closer together so LI can get back to the original release schedule?
RexHavoc wrote: This is going to be pushing it close too christmas, so I may not bother pre-ordering at all.
Some of us have been speculating that the release might be timed to coincide with Black Friday - Nov 24th which would need a pre-order by Nov 18th. Another question is, will all LI release be pushed back to accommodate the delay? Or will the first two scheduled releases happen closer together so LI can get back to the original release schedule?
Since they already showed off many/all? models of the first expansion book I really don't see them delaying that too. It might not release on the same day but I would expect a month later max.
Also they are currently doing 2 week preorders so for Nov 25th (release dates are on Saturday) preorder would be on Nov 11th. But personally I would bet on a preorder next week with release on the 18th
Remember as well that this has been so delayed that the units that were meant to have been released with the 2nd book will nowbe out in the first wave.
There are supposedly no rules for bikes and several other units in the base rule set and are covered in an expansion book.
Likely the expansion book will be out almost immediately as well.
A botched released doesn't even begin to cover this.
Waaagh_Gonads wrote: Remember as well that this has been so delayed that the units that were meant to have been released with the 2nd book will nowbe out in the first wave.
I find it very implausible that any expansion will be released this side of the holidays.
The core release of LI will already come with such a ridiculous number of SKUs by necessity, including the launch box, terrain, reboxed AT/AI models, and several wave 1 kits. Then there's the discounted Xmas battleforces to squeeze in too.
At a certain point GW are just competing with themselves by releasing too much at once. The expansion models are being shown now as a means to generate marketing hype for the overall game, and indicate ongoing support for anyone on the fence about buying in.
xttz wrote: At a certain point GW are just competing with themselves by releasing too much at once.
That's my concern. In order to prevent this, the entire release schedule may be bumped.
xttz wrote: The expansion models are being shown now as a means to generate marketing hype for the overall game, and indicate ongoing support for anyone on the fence about buying in.
I'm not so sure. I think the marketing stuff has its own schedule, especially articles in WD.
Main competition for a GW game is another GW game launched from a different department and nothing else
And GW sees the competition for specialist games, in other specialist games and not with the main games
So LI must get back on track and within their planned release cycle to not only avoid conflict with other games but also for that department to avoid taking space and time needed for their other work.
That they cannot delay any expansion already ready to go was clear from the beginning.
What is a suprise here is that the first expansion was planned so close to the original release
xttz wrote: At a certain point GW are just competing with themselves by releasing too much at once.
That's my concern. In order to prevent this, the entire release schedule may be bumped.
I too think having everything on LI in the core and expansion scheduled releases all at once, even in 2 week pre-order, may be too much for GW logistics to handle. Mainly because there are other things that must be released for Christmas and can't be delayed.
Wouldn't be surprised if the expansion stuff is delayed even further into 2024.
kodos wrote: That they cannot delay any expansion already ready to go was clear from the beginning.
What is a suprise here is that the first expansion was planned so close to the original release
It's hardly a surprise at all, 3 months is a very typical release cadence for specialist games. I'd bet that this first expansion was originally planned for November, following an August launch.
Main competition for a GW game is another GW game launched from a different department and nothing else
And GW sees the competition for specialist games, in other specialist games and not with the main games
So LI must get back on track and within their planned release cycle to not only avoid conflict with other games but also for that department to avoid taking space and time needed for their other work.
They'll be getting back on track by compressing the releases for the first 2 or 3 months. We know from early articles that GW didn't plan to release everything on day one in August, so it seems plausible that the original plan was something like:
August: launch box & terrain
Sept/Oct: Baneblades / kratos / rhinos / etc
Nov: first expansion book / drop pods
Now we may well get that August/Sept stuff together at launch, but I doubt it's going to be very much more. GW know well enough that the majority of lifetime sales for their kits are generated at peak hype on a release weekend, and also that most customers will have a finite budget. Regardless of the delay so far putting out 3-4 months of releases in one go does not result in all customers having 3-4 months worth of hobby budget to splurge on one weekend; it just means they end up substituting items and makes individual kits much less profitable than before.
It's much smarter for GW to delay things like the expansion book / drop pod / fast attack boxes into 2024 and maximise sales for as much as possible. We'll still have more than enough tiny grey plastic to keep us occupied for the remainder of 2023!
RexHavoc wrote: This is going to be pushing it close too christmas, so I may not bother pre-ordering at all.
Some of us have been speculating that the release might be timed to coincide with Black Friday - Nov 24th which would need a pre-order by Nov 18th. Another question is, will all LI release be pushed back to accommodate the delay? Or will the first two scheduled releases happen closer together so LI can get back to the original release schedule?
Since they already showed off many/all? models of the first expansion book I really don't see them delaying that too. It might not release on the same day but I would expect a month later max.
Also they are currently doing 2 week preorders so for Nov 25th (release dates are on Saturday) preorder would be on Nov 11th. But personally I would bet on a preorder next week with release on the 18th
Note that if GW wants Legions Imperials to be a Black Friday release, it will actually release on Friday. GW did that last year with the Cadian launch box.
RexHavoc wrote: This is going to be pushing it close too christmas, so I may not bother pre-ordering at all.
Some of us have been speculating that the release might be timed to coincide with Black Friday - Nov 24th which would need a pre-order by Nov 18th. Another question is, will all LI release be pushed back to accommodate the delay? Or will the first two scheduled releases happen closer together so LI can get back to the original release schedule?
Since they already showed off many/all? models of the first expansion book I really don't see them delaying that too. It might not release on the same day but I would expect a month later max.
Also they are currently doing 2 week preorders so for Nov 25th (release dates are on Saturday) preorder would be on Nov 11th. But personally I would bet on a preorder next week with release on the 18th
Note that if GW wants Legions Imperials to be a Black Friday release, it will actually release on Friday. GW did that last year with the Cadian launch box.
They did? Didn't know that. That actually makes it more likely I think.
So or so I would be surprised if it takes longer than that to at least release the launch box
Yeah, even bought a Cadian box at the time. GW did an extraordinary two week (well, thirteen days) pre-order, too. I suppose it won't be extraordinary if they do the same this year.
Waaagh_Gonads wrote: Remember as well that this has been so delayed that the units that were meant to have been released with the 2nd book will nowbe out in the first wave.
I find it very implausible that any expansion will be released this side of the holidays.
The core release of LI will already come with such a ridiculous number of SKUs by necessity, including the launch box, terrain, reboxed AT/AI models, and several wave 1 kits. Then there's the discounted Xmas battleforces to squeeze in too.
At a certain point GW are just competing with themselves by releasing too much at once. The expansion models are being shown now as a means to generate marketing hype for the overall game, and indicate ongoing support for anyone on the fence about buying in.
In counter, I'll note that the first expansion products are probably taking up warehouse space as I write this. Products taking up warehouse space that aren't being moved to retailers are products that are costing the company money. It's in GW's interests to get product moving as quickly as possible, and not have it gathering dust in the warehouse.
These production and release schedules are planned months if not years in advance aren't they. My feeling is, if there has been an 'interruption' for LI (whatever may have caused that, be it production delays or the books needing to be reprinted) they might well compress the initial launch and wave 1 into a single release - especially as the battle report featured things from the expansion, it seems a little counter-intuitive to effectively 'advertise' something that customers cannot buy yet.
For regular WD readers, is this something that is done commonly?
On a separate note, quite incredible that this thread is now at 131 pages and over a third of a million views, and the game has yet to even be released!
If stuff is made already, it's certainly in their best interest to move it... but it's also in their interest to watch for the opportunity cost: it might be more profitable for them to keep the LI expansion stuff gathering dust and instead move other items at this point in time, just because they move faster.
I'll refrain from getting my hopes up until there's a semi-reliable source. Though I'm still expecting it before the end of the year, and GW is rapidly running out of time.
Apparently announcement will be made on 30th and pre-orders on the 4th (for release on 18th)
Using the word apparently a lot here, but apparently source was correct for Votann and Leviathan, so has a good track record - but I have no way of verifying that
Prometheum5 wrote: That's basically the last slot it could be, right? Once you get into American Thanksgiving and December they don't usually release new big launches.
"Black Friday" - aka the single biggest sales day of the year - is the day after American Thanksgiving. So it wouldn't be out of the question to wait one more week.
Prometheum5 wrote: That's basically the last slot it could be, right? Once you get into American Thanksgiving and December they don't usually release new big launches.
"Black Friday" - aka the single biggest sales day of the year - is the day after American Thanksgiving. So it wouldn't be out of the question to wait one more week.
With them being announced 2-3 weeks earlier than usual, I'm wondering if this year's battleforces will be taking that slot instead.
We could well see something like:
Sat Nov 4th: LI preorder
Sat Nov 11th: Battleforces preorder
Sat Nov 18th: LI in stores
Fri Nov 24th: Battleforces in stores for Black Friday
GW could also plausibly throw in a couple of releases in early December too; likely smaller stuff such as another limited edition xmas model.
Prometheum5 wrote: That's basically the last slot it could be, right? Once you get into American Thanksgiving and December they don't usually release new big launches.
"Black Friday" - aka the single biggest sales day of the year - is the day after American Thanksgiving. So it wouldn't be out of the question to wait one more week.
But if they wait until after black Friday they risk everyone having blown through their disposable income. Surely they need to at least announce it before hand so people can set aside cash.
Prometheum5 wrote: That's basically the last slot it could be, right? Once you get into American Thanksgiving and December they don't usually release new big launches.
"Black Friday" - aka the single biggest sales day of the year - is the day after American Thanksgiving. So it wouldn't be out of the question to wait one more week.
But if they wait until after black Friday they risk everyone having blown through their disposable income. Surely they need to at least announce it before hand so people can set aside cash.
If people know that it's coming and want it, they'll set aside some disposable income. Additionally, while sales are best specifically on Friday, they continue to stay high throughout. The following Monday is now a big day for online sales promotions due to the volume of sales.
Pacific wrote: Apparently announcement will be made on 30th and pre-orders on the 4th (for release on 18th)
Using the word apparently a lot here, but apparently source was correct for Votann and Leviathan, so has a good track record - but I have no way of verifying that
30 makes no sense as sunday is day preorders are announced. Why wokld gw delay by day?
Yeah GW has put things in December a few times before, but they don't do it often and it's usually not big.
With Cities of Sigmar finally getting the rest of their stuff, and the Battleforces shown off in all their glory, we're basically down to a handful of things that have already been revealed but not yet released. The main part of that is going to be Kill Team: Salvation, and Winter releases for Necron and Adeptus Mechanicus.
I'll believe that LI is out in November, that's been a prevailing rumor for a while now. Timing makes sense. Follow that up with Kill Team in late november, early december, Adeptus Mechanicus in December, then Necron in January, and that's a pretty stuffed release schedule for the winter already.
There's still one book left for AoS in Winter roadmap of 2023...and let's be honest, they're totally teasing flesh eater courts for a while, and we know there are new miniatures coming with them -not just a single character.
We still have a preview coming for this month as well.
It will be very hard to put everything until the end of the year.
Sarouan wrote: There's still one book left for AoS in Winter roadmap of 2023...and let's be honest, they're totally teasing flesh eater courts for a while, and we know there are new miniatures coming with them -not just a single character.
We still have a preview coming for this month as well.
It will be very hard to put everything until the end of the year.
I think the AOS roadmap said the Winter would be Dawnbringers book 4 plus an Order battletome. Still, "Winter" on these roadmaps covers Dec 2023 and Jan / Feb 2024, so there's plenty of time for those. FEC might well be Spring if it's going to be a large release.
Kill Team is the only thing left from the roadmaps that's expected before the end of 2023 since it's listed as Autumn.
With the two-week preorder in place there are realistically five release slots left for 2023, and three of them will be KT, Epic, and Battleforces in whichever order.
Bit surprised its not a dual kit of 3 Explorators and 3 Carriers. As they name the Carrier version in the article I would expect it to come too but I don't expect two different boxes for Proteus Land Raiders. Maybe those will be a resin upgrade set?
VAYASEN wrote: Dont miss this at the very bottom of the article-
Join us again next week for more Heresy Thursday reveals – our scanners tell us there might be more on the horizon for Legions Imperialis.
Does it just mean more info on more stuff as per usual next thursday or hinting at something like release info etc
Since it says Heresy Thursday reveal it should just be another model reveal (or maybe that expansion book).
But if the rumours are true that the preorder is on the 4th we should be getting confirmation of that this Sunday
SU-152 wrote: If the boxes end up being 40€, it does not seem too expensive for 6 Land Raiders (taking into account the bigger scale).
Sounds pretty pricey to me
Just hoping they simply stay at the same price as AI
It just makes me sad when I remember how much stuff came on the sprues for old Epic 'Space Marine' 2nd edition. I recall boxes like this-- 120 marines and 12 Land Raiders...
If LI boxes are 40 euros, that'd make 20 per plastic Baneblade IIRC.
Didn't they confirm (possibly via Twitter) that Kratos & Baneblades are sold in boxes of four?
Edit: if I was going to speculate... the AT Cerastus kits might be an indication here. The Lancers were £27.50 for a single sprue of two knights, while the Acheron & Castigator types were £45 for duplicate sprues that built four knights.
I could definitely see LI super-heavies being sold in a similar way to the latter.
If LI boxes are 40 euros, that'd make 20 per plastic Baneblade IIRC.
Didn't they confirm (possibly via Twitter) that Kratos & Baneblades are sold in boxes of four?
Edit: if I was going to speculate... the AT Cerastus kits might be an indication here. The Lancers were £27.50 for a single sprue of two knights, while the Acheron & Castigator types were £45 for duplicate sprues that built four knights.
I could definitely see LI super-heavies being sold in a similar way to the latter.
Yes, 4 to a box.
That makes them cheaper nowadays then (10 €/SHT vehicle). But since it is plastic (way better details and sculpt though), comparison for some people is pointless.
So it seems Epic was pricey back then too. I've been playing for 20+ years but bought almost everything second hand (and later 3d print), hence my lack of knowledge regarding pricing.
SU-152 wrote: If the boxes end up being 40€, it does not seem too expensive for 6 Land Raiders (taking into account the bigger scale).
Sounds pretty pricey to me
Just hoping they simply stay at the same price as AI
It just makes me sad when I remember how much stuff came on the sprues for old Epic 'Space Marine' 2nd edition. I recall boxes like this-- 120 marines and 12 Land Raiders...
Old Epic (certainly 2nd edition) was definitely one of the cheaper GW games to play back in the day. It was one of the main reasons my mates and I played it, a couple of the main boxsets, expansions and a few blisters of something fancy and you could cover a tabletop.
I suspect this new game is going to be aimed at those same customers now grown up and looking for a nostalgia buy - and it will be priced accordingly. It's a shame in a way it won't fulfil the same role in the product range as an introductory game (that is cheaper) but at least there are viable cheaper alternatives in some of the skirmish games these days.
VAYASEN wrote: It just makes me sad when I remember how much stuff came on the sprues for old Epic 'Space Marine' 2nd edition. I recall boxes like this-- 120 marines and 12 Land Raiders...
The new ones are 1/4 the size of the 40k models. The old ones are quite a bit smaller than that, as well as significantly less detailed.
Reasonable price, higher quality, or greater quantity. Pick two.
If LI boxes are 40 euros, that'd make 20 per plastic Baneblade IIRC.
Didn't they confirm (possibly via Twitter) that Kratos & Baneblades are sold in boxes of four?
Edit: if I was going to speculate... the AT Cerastus kits might be an indication here. The Lancers were £27.50 for a single sprue of two knights, while the Acheron & Castigator types were £45 for duplicate sprues that built four knights.
I could definitely see LI super-heavies being sold in a similar way to the latter.
Yes, 4 to a box.
That makes them cheaper nowadays then (10 €/SHT vehicle). But since it is plastic (way better details and sculpt though), comparison for some people is pointless.
So it seems Epic was pricey back then too. I've been playing for 20+ years but bought almost everything second hand (and later 3d print), hence my lack of knowledge regarding pricing.
It really depends. Plastic was dirt cheap (adjust the plastic prices for inflation and you'll see they come off at about 15 euros per box), metals were less so, and then when they changed to Epic: Armageddon, they more than doubled.
I can easily se the plastic knights being held for a later bigger expansion.
So booster expansion after launch to get keep people interested (now perhaps merged into the main release with the Great Slaughter), then something closer to 9 months a year out as an excuse to start collecting a new army to have more of a tail to the sales to initial customers.
Tastyfish wrote: I can easily see the plastic knights being held for a later bigger expansion.
I'm not sure why they're doing this. Most of us already have as many as we wanted so it's only the newcomers who are being denied these kits. At least some of the decal sheets are still available.
SamusDrake wrote: The worst part about this delay is that we're waiting on two games instead of just one; nothing on the Titanicus front whatsoever.
Yeah, I'm not expecting anything new for AT in the short term (maybe new Titans down the road as a dual release), but it'd be nice if the kits were available...
SamusDrake wrote: The worst part about this delay is that we're waiting on two games instead of just one; nothing on the Titanicus front whatsoever.
Yeah, I'm not expecting anything new for AT in the short term (maybe new Titans down the road as a dual release), but it'd be nice if the kits were available...
We already know we're getting new plastic warehouse weapons though?
It just makes me sad when I remember how much stuff came on the sprues for old Epic 'Space Marine' 2nd edition. I recall boxes like this-- 120 marines and 12 Land Raiders...
Inflation is a bitch. But let's also remember these old miniatures were basically monoposes, obviously smaller and the vehicles were hollow. Ah, and that at this time, plastic was basically seen as the miracle material (cheap to produce, easy for modelism) and not the polluting nightmare mess with significanty increased prices nowadays.
Chopstick wrote: I'm surprised they had this many units left to reveal while the might be plastic armiger and mechanicum knights are no where to be seen.
This is probably the biggest investment GW has put into a launch side games for Specialist team, even more than side games from the warhammer team.
Not really. It's just that Warhammer Community has committed to a specific day in the week for HH "reveals", so they had to stick to it and put something new everytime.
The delay for release is simply an unfortunate situation. I expect people will be "angry" when they'll realize not everything showed so far will be actually for sale at the delayed release date.
kodos wrote: I must have missed were we see the multipose, not-hollow models
going with a different scale is a choice and not a reason
and plastic is still the cheap to produce material compared to metal or resin
I think they meant monopose as in all the models have exactly the same pose. We know the new ones have a variety of poses. What impact his has on cost I have no idea.
Cheap is a relative term, I don’t think anyone should be surprised that this is more expensive than old epic, there are decades in inflation and production, warehousing costs etc between them. The cost will also reflect that this is a side game, not a mass game where they will sell the same volumes as 40K kits. So many people, like me will be put off because of the 30k setting so numbers of players will be lower. There fore sales lower, so kits will cost more to make back the investments in time and moulds etc.
It just makes me sad when I remember how much stuff came on the sprues for old Epic 'Space Marine' 2nd edition. I recall boxes like this-- 120 marines and 12 Land Raiders...
Inflation is a bitch. But let's also remember these old miniatures were basically monoposes, obviously smaller and the vehicles were hollow. Ah, and that at this time, plastic was basically seen as the miracle material (cheap to produce, easy for modelism) and not the polluting nightmare mess with significanty increased prices nowadays.
Inflation is acceptable and expected. Continually raising prices higher than inflation and cutting the amount you get is actually corporate greed.
There's a difference.
kodos wrote: I must have missed were we see the multipose, not-hollow models
going with a different scale is a choice and not a reason
and plastic is still the cheap to produce material compared to metal or resin
Well, it just means you didn't have the Epic miniatures of that glorious past, that's all. I did, so I know.
There was only one model for tactical marines, one model for heavy weapon (missile launcher) marines, one model for assault marines, one model for sergeant marines...I think you get what I mean by that now ?
Old land raiders were hollow, by that I mean the underside was litterally hollow : there's nothing to cover it. So you better not put an upside-down land raider of that time for casualty / dioramas, cause it looks bad.
Nostalgia is cool, but better remember everything - not just the good parts.
As for the prices...it's not as cheap as you think it is, even Mantic Games had to raise their prices even if Ronnie was reluctant to do so, it should tell you something. Things change, countries are slowly moving to deal with the problem. Remember what happened with lead miniatures ? Well...don't be surprised if plastic gets the same treatment in the future. Because it is a polluting nightmare mess, like it or not.
Inflation is acceptable and expected. Continually raising prices higher than inflation and cutting the amount you get is actually corporate greed.
There's a difference.
World isn't black and white. Corporate greed isn't where you think it is. If you think that "removing corporate greed" will magically make the prices go back to the 90', you're just ignoring all the other factors leading to that, my friend.
Inflation is acceptable and expected. Continually raising prices higher than inflation and cutting the amount you get is actually corporate greed.
There's a difference.
World isn't black and white. Corporate greed isn't where you think it is. If you think that "removing corporate greed" will magically make the prices go back to the 90', you're just ignoring all the other factors leading to that, my friend.
And he didn't say they would go back to the 90', he literally said inflation is acceptable and expected. What he actually said is that they are increasing the prices more than just inflation
BUT, those prices for medium/big sized vehicles (i.e. LR, Baneblades...) are NOT that bad, taking into account: better detail, better sculpt, the old epic prices for those (3rd & 4th edition SHTs), and basically double the volume (due to scale creep/increase).
What SU-152 said. Inflation alone isn't enough to cover the rest leading to production of such models : they're more detailed, have more different parts, are obviously bigger, plastic is more expensive to produce than in the 90ies, logistic prices are also higher, renting for the stores are also higher, salaries are also higher (even if it doesn't look much )...it's more than just "corporate greed".
Don't misunderstand me, there are certainly some costs that aren't necessary and "greed" at the higher management does certainly exist...but it's not as simple as one could make it look like by writing "corporate greed" - as if the solution was simply to remove that and everything would be fine in the world. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's not the solution that will magically make prices lower.
being more detailed and being bigger was a decision by GW it might give a reason why they can be more expensive, but it is not something anyone asked for
there was no "please make it bigger and more detailed even if it means an increase in price" from the community
Sarouan wrote: What SU-152 said. Inflation alone isn't enough to cover the rest leading to production of such models : they're more detailed, have more different parts, are obviously bigger, plastic is more expensive to produce than in the 90ies, logistic prices are also higher, renting for the stores are also higher, salaries are also higher (even if it doesn't look much )...it's more than just "corporate greed".
Sarouan wrote: There was only one model for tactical marines, one model for heavy weapon (missile launcher) marines, one model for assault marines, one model for sergeant marines...I think you get what I mean by that now ?
you are talking about different models and not multi pose
yes there are more different models with the new infantry, which is not really important for that scale as you end up with multiple of the same anyway in Epic
so if there is 1 Tactical Marine or 5 makes no difference as every Base will look the same anyway
if this is a reason for a higher price, it is win-lose for the players as they buy more and gain nothing, as armies will have identical Bases for the same unit types
kodos wrote: being more detailed and being bigger was a decision by GW it might give a reason why they can be more expensive, but it is not something anyone asked for
there was no "please make it bigger and more detailed even if it means an increase in price" from the community
Well, if Mantic Games wants to go for 10mm scale for Warpath, it's certainly their choice too and Warpath customers weren't especially asking for it. But we're talking about GW here, so it's definitely not the same thing, isn't it.
However, there's a reason for bigger scale other than "raising prices" : painting / seeing details is easier on a higher scale. Sure, you may produce a lot of blob miniatures that look vaguely like geometric shapes for cheaper, but is it really what people who are fans of miniatures want ? Cheapness alone isn't enough, as Mantic Games is very well aware of their reputation of having "average looking miniatures that aren't worth to care about" (even if it's not deserved). People also expect a rise in quality in comparison to what was produced in the past, not just a copy-paste of what they did - partly because the ways to produce and sculpt miniatures have evolved meanwhile and things that weren't possible to do in the past are now possible.
GW could also double or triple the amount per box with no perceptible increase in cost. Obviously the same argument applies to every plastic kit by every company ever, but there's some unwritten agreement what's a reasonable expectation of value... 4 drop pods ain't it
lord_blackfang wrote: GW could also double or triple the amount per box with no perceptible increase in cost. Obviously the same argument applies to every plastic kit by every company ever, but there's some unwritten agreement what's a reasonable expectation of value... 4 drop pods ain't it
4 drop pods with no possibility to have the doors opened / closed sure do take less space on sprues than the same with detailed inside. I think that's the most likely reason they are just "that number", mind you. And sure, maybe people weren't asking for that and would have been ok with permanently sealed drop pods for cheaper, but that's not what GW made as a choice.
To me, it's more a design choice than a real price one.
(Of course, we still don't have any price list for the drop pod boxes so it's not like we actually know if it will be as outrageous as some people here assume it will be)
If drop pods were fixed in one position it would have to be open otherwise there's no way to tell which ones are deathstorm and which are regular transports. Don't they automatically open on landing anyway?
ray648 wrote: If drop pods were fixed in one position it would have to be open otherwise there's no way to tell which ones are deathstorm and which are regular transports. Don't they automatically open on landing anyway?
Exactly. Sealed drop pods mean variants are useless and they're just here for deep strike transport. That's why in the 1st editions of Epic, they were mainly used as tokens for deployment - the real formation being the transported units.
That's clearly not the choice they make for LI rules here, so we're clearly paying for it with 4 drop pod boxes. Which price exactly, we still don't know though.
Andykp wrote: Cheap is a relative term, I don’t think anyone should be surprised that this is more expensive than old epic, there are decades in inflation and production, warehousing costs etc between them. The cost will also reflect that this is a side game, not a mass game where they will sell the same volumes as 40K kits. So many people, like me will be put off because of the 30k setting so numbers of players will be lower. There fore sales lower, so kits will cost more to make back the investments in time and moulds etc.
Note that people has been adjusting the old Epic prices for inflation when putting them on the thread
Note that people has been adjusting the old Epic prices for inflation when putting them on the thread
Not really, they're just putting prices that "they feel like" have been adjusted to inflation, but they obviously don't know the real costs GW has to reverberate somewhat.
It has the same worth as someone saying the Blood Angel army in battle report cost about "900€". It's just an estimation based on subjective perception / biased views of how they see GW. It's worth something only if you espoused the same views leading to that kind of "statement".
Sarouan wrote: Well, if Mantic Games wants to go for 10mm scale for Warpath, it's certainly their choice too and Warpath customers weren't especially asking for it. But we're talking about GW here, so it's definitely not the same thing, isn't it. .
I guess you must be very excited about Warpath to bring that up here
but yeah, if multiple different models is a feature you are willing to pay more, this is up to you
but don't do marketing speech like people did not know that they wanted it but now they have to pay for it
BUT, those prices for medium/big sized vehicles (i.e. LR, Baneblades...) are NOT that bad, taking into account: better detail, better sculpt, the old epic prices for those (3rd & 4th edition SHTs), and basically double the volume (due to scale creep/increase).
Yes and this is it really. The scale and detail of these miniatures has changed drastically since the originals, sculpting detail has increased so we have gone from the miniatures being single pose and an abstract representation of the unit, to belt buckles and eye lenses being visible - it's a big change.
Plus you will read a lot of the words 'boutique' and 'artisan' being used to describe these minis, and they are not priced to appeal to kids scraping together pocket money with their mates to cover the tabletop in little rhinos and battlewagons, as was the case in the 90s. It looks like an army of these guys is priced to appeal to the guy who has had a tax rebate and is wondering whether to hide it from his partner and buy an LI army, or tell her and use that money on a 2-week package holiday.
Pacific wrote: It looks like an army of these guys is priced to appeal to the guy who has had a tax rebate and is wondering whether to hide it from his partner and buy an LI army, or tell her and use that money on a 2-week package holiday.
"Couple Budget Tax" evasion is a worldwide bane in miniature wargamer couples for sure.
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kodos wrote: I guess you must be very excited about Warpath to bring that up here
but yeah, if multiple different models is a feature you are willing to pay more, this is up to you
but don't do marketing speech like people did not know that they wanted it but now they have to pay for it
I actually think it's a good idea to go for 10mm scale in mass battle games - yeah, it's more expensive than 6mm, but it's honestly more pleasant to paint for me with my eyesight getting worse as years pass on. And it's easier to sell more detailed miniatures as well that way. So I'm certainly not blaming MG nor GW to go that way (*gasp* how dare I say that it's 10mm for GW ?! Yeah, well, scales are whatever you want them to be in miniature market - there's no actual universal scale and a labelled 8mm could be very well be 10mm depending on how you decide to measure them and how their proportions are).
What I wrote is not "marketing speech", I leave that for the concerned companies. When a company decides to launch a new game, it's always their choice and it's not especially about "what people ask them for". It's about launching a new game and marketing does their job to advertise it, that's all. And if you think it's just a matter of "willing to pay more", you're simply ignoring all the other factors behind. Besides, I know that no matter what'll happen, you'll keep supporting MG and dismissing GW because MG is your favorite company and GW is your hated one. So even if both companies took the exact same marketing decision, you'll defend it with one and attack it with the other. It has no factual basis, it's just a matter of "love/hate" relationship. There's not much to discuss in that situation, sadly.
lord_blackfang wrote: GW could also double or triple the amount per box with no perceptible increase in cost. Obviously the same argument applies to every plastic kit by every company ever, but there's some unwritten agreement what's a reasonable expectation of value... 4 drop pods ain't it
4 drop pods with no possibility to have the doors opened / closed sure do take less space on sprues than the same with detailed inside. I think that's the most likely reason they are just "that number", mind you. And sure, maybe people weren't asking for that and would have been ok with permanently sealed drop pods for cheaper, but that's not what GW made as a choice.
To me, it's more a design choice than a real price one.
My point is, they could put 8 or 12 in a box and it wouldn't make an impact on manufacturing cost. Of course, people might notice if they put 8 copies of a sprue in a X€ drop pod box but only 2 copies of a sprue in a X€ infantry box... bottom line is, no matter the design cost, additional copies are peanuts, it's entirely GW's choice to put very little product in a box.
1st and 2nd Edition Space Marine miniatures were more like "tokens" than "models". Modern miniatures are no longer this abstract blob, the differences are very significant. I wouldn't pay inflated 1990's GW prices for a new Epic scale game if the minis still looked like tokens. I'd probably skip the whole thing to be honest. My interest in the miniature games of my youth are only kept alive by the massive advances in miniature quality in 2023. Heck, the majority of HH illustrations are photoshopped picts of the actual miniatures, there's no way you could have pulled that off in the 90's without them looking comical af. Are the prices fair considering the improvement on quality? You tell me.
lord_blackfang wrote: it's entirely GW's choice to put very little product in a box.
It totally is.
It's simply a question of having a package that's not necessarily optimized compared to how the rules allow you to fill that miniature in your list ("I need to take x boxes for a drop pod formation while I only need y for a rhino formation ! That's outrageous !").
It's not really a GW problem specifically. It actually happens everywhere when the sculpting guys, the rule guys and the packaging / price guys don't necessarily interact a lot about that topic (or simply don't see it as a problem in itself).
My point is, they could put 8 or 12 in a box and it wouldn't make an impact on manufacturing cost.
That isn't true though. The upfront manufacturing cost of plastic kits is intrinsically tied to sales volume, and cutting that volume can result in products that are either barely profitable or even make a loss.
We also know that GW had a minimum expected profit from a product before it gets approved for development. That's because the typical profit on the rest of their model range is so high, if they start to allocate tooling & injection molding resources to anything that doesn't sell well enough, it's effectively a loss to them. Why would they accept £10k profit on a niche model when they can make £50k profit on another kit of the same size via the same resources?
So let's say for the sake of argument that a drop pod kit cost them £60k to develop, costs £3 to produce / package / distribute, and they will sell a box of four at £30 retail. Their goal is to make £50k profit from this kit. To keep this simple I'm sticking to GBP figures:
Approximately half of GW's sales go to trade accounts, so at 60% trade price they make £18 per unit from these. For the sake of simplicity we'll average this out with direct sales to £24.
After deducting the costs that leaves £21 per unit, and they will need to sell 2,858 units to recoup the development cost of the kit, and another 2,380 units. That results in a sales target of 5,238.
Customers go out and buy 5,500 boxes of drop pods, and the kit is narrow commercial success.
Now if you double the contents of the box that may increase the raw cost by a small amount, say to £3.50. Their sales target increases slightly to 5,365
However now that they're getting twice as many per box, customers only bought 3,000 units. In GW's eyes that's a failure, it only barely recouped the investment cost and generated far less profit than pretty anything else they sell.
Now I'm not arguing that GWshould be selling four drop pods at £30. I personally don't plan to buy any. This is to give people a better understanding of the commercial process that produces such outcomes.
What I fully expect GW to do is release drop pods at around £30 and see who bites. Then after a while they'll either repack them into boxes of 6 or 8 and try to squeeze more sales, or use them to fill out 'value' in xmas battleforce type sets.
I am well aware. The reductio ad absurdum of that argument being, obviously, to manufacture a single box and sell it for £110.000.
The real question is where the sales axis meets the perceived value axis. Clearly GW doesn't think that drawing in extra customers by making the game more affordable would offset reduced profit per customer.
lord_blackfang wrote: I am well aware. The reductio ad absurdum of that argument being, obviously, to manufacture a single box and sell it for £110.000.
The real question is where the sales axis meets the perceived value axis. Clearly GW doesn't think that drawing in extra customers by making the game more affordable would offset reduced profit per customer.
I think their ability to manufacture enough stuff is a pretty big factor. They struggle to satisfy the demand they have at the current prices.
lord_blackfang wrote: I am well aware. The reductio ad absurdum of that argument being, obviously, to manufacture a single box and sell it for £110.000.
The real question is where the sales axis meets the perceived value axis. Clearly GW doesn't think that drawing in extra customers by making the game more affordable would offset reduced profit per customer.
I think their ability to manufacture enough stuff is a pretty big factor. They struggle to satisfy the demand they have at the current prices.
^ THIS. What's he purpose of decreasing prices (either absolute or relative by increasing the number of items in a box) if you are not able to produce enough?!? And please don't tell me they could buy additional machines... that's a huge investment (and therefore risk)...
lord_blackfang wrote: I am well aware. The reductio ad absurdum of that argument being, obviously, to manufacture a single box and sell it for £110.000.
The real question is where the sales axis meets the perceived value axis. Clearly GW doesn't think that drawing in extra customers by making the game more affordable would offset reduced profit per customer.
Apart from GW having bad experiences with when it tries that only works when they can produce more but when they are already underproducing it results in 0% more sales and lower price per box sold.
Can't sell more if you can't produce enough to fulfill new sales.
lord_blackfang wrote: The reductio ad absurdum of that argument being, obviously, to manufacture a single box and sell it for £110.000..
Well, that's pretty much the whole business model of luxury companies, and why their CEOs are amongst the richest men on Earth.
Even if GW is considered "the Rolls Royce of miniature games", they're actually and absolutely NOT the same thing. Because their target customer base isn't billionnaires.
lord_blackfang wrote: I am well aware. The reductio ad absurdum of that argument being, obviously, to manufacture a single box and sell it for £110.000.
The real question is where the sales axis meets the perceived value axis. Clearly GW doesn't think that drawing in extra customers by making the game more affordable would offset reduced profit per customer.
Apart from GW having bad experiences with when it tries that only works when they can produce more but when they are already underproducing it results in 0% more sales and lower price per box sold.
Can't sell more if you can't produce enough to fulfill new sales.
It could just be a coincidence, or maybe related to the LI release, but GW finally restocked the Horus Heresy Aeronautica Imperialis book here in Oz. No idea if it was out of stock anywhere else, but over here it sold out almost instantly on release day and I mostly gave up waiting for it to pop up again.
Given everything they need to roll out, before the 40K/AoS Army bundles take priority in December, they'll need more than a fortnight for the launch set, terrain and repackaged AT kits. Those are the absolute essentials and maybe the odd kit like the earlier support groups.
I'm assuming everything else previewed so far will trickle out in the new year.
SamusDrake wrote: Given everything they need to roll out, before the 40K/AoS Army bundles take priority in December, they'll need more than a fortnight for the launch set, terrain and repackaged AT kits. Those are the absolute essentials and maybe the odd kit like the earlier support groups.
I'm assuming everything else previewed so far will trickle out in the new year.
Looking at how much went up yesterday I can see three preorders being enough for LI. One for the launch set, the terrain and all the rereleased AT/AI stuff, one for every individual box from the inital wave and one for everything from the second wave. Granted that doesn't mean they won't split it up further, just that I believe its possible to finish everything in three weeks.
Also I only expect the first two this year, the expansion wave will likely only come early next year
odinfellhammer wrote: I guess we'll know if they're releasing LI next month when the collector's coin is announced.
Or by the 18th when the last opportunity to pre-order goes by.
Well we know on 12th whether 18th is the preorder day.
Typically the coin is in stores around mid-month, so for November likely the 18th. That date also always ties into the in-store date of the related product, meaning LI would need to go up on preorder Nov 4th and get confirmed today.
I think today will bring the launch box, terrain, re-releases of any AT/AI kits, plus a handful of early core units like rhinos. Anything recently announced such as drop pods, land raiders, and jetbikes will get shelved until New Year.
odinfellhammer wrote: I guess we'll know if they're releasing LI next month when the collector's coin is announced.
Or by the 18th when the last opportunity to pre-order goes by.
Well we know on 12th whether 18th is the preorder day.
Typically the coin is in stores around mid-month, so for November likely the 18th. That date also always ties into the in-store date of the related product, meaning LI would need to go up on preorder Nov 4th and get confirmed today.
I think today will bring the launch box, terrain, re-releases of any AT/AI kits, plus a handful of early core units like rhinos. Anything recently announced such as drop pods, land raiders, and jetbikes will get shelved until New Year.
The coin isn't necessarily available at the same time as the release its meant for, just the same month. Its often available earlier in the month too. The free model on the other hand is always coming together with a release. But these two also don't have to be for the same release
xttz wrote: I think today will bring the launch box, terrain, re-releases of any AT/AI kits, plus a handful of early core units like rhinos. Anything recently announced such as drop pods, land raiders, and jetbikes will get shelved until New Year.
I was expecting the first wave to be the starter box and core rulebook, scenery kits, 6 unit boxes (including the dire wolves), bases, detachment cards, and all the reboxed AT and AI kits.
Then I realised that's about 36+ SKUs, and given the recent issues I'm not confident GW can actually handle that at the moment. I now thinking they might delay the re-release of the AT and AI kits.
Ohman wrote: Have we managed to figure out what boxes the starter set is made up of yet?
There's been no official confirmation yet on how the starter box stuff will be split up. Most people are (fairly) assuming it will be sold as ~£30 boxes of 2 duplicated sprues, but lots of other combinations are possible.
For example they could sell 3 preds & 2 sicarans together, or bulk package four infantry sprues in a similar way to how core HH infantry are sold as 20 models per box.
Honestly this is ridiculous at this point. This has to be the biggest bodged release GW have ever done. There is no way that they can put a pre-order up mid way through November and have any hope of having the game in peoples hands before Christmas. Next week would have cut it close as it was, but now there is no chance to not have it lost in the Christmas rush.
We have a saying in my gaming group chat- "never order anything from GW in November, that you don't want until sometime early spring"
I feel bad for the chaps that made the game & convinced management that epic was still a viable and popular scale/game to bring back. Not only will this release be too close to christmas, but people nostalgic for those good old 80s/90s GW vibes now will only have mere weeks between two of the biggest specialist game releases. I'm sure a lot of people will need to choose between Epic & TOW if they have winter bills to be paying.
That said, I'll buy the hell out of the tiles still. I have enough vanguard/other 6mm terrain that I could fill my current gaming space and still have left overs but don't have a decent board/layout for it all. But I'll be pencilling in a group building session for them for 6 months time when they finally arrive, rather than our usual christmas session!
Honestly, I'd not be shocked if they were to turn around and say it was cancelled until such time in the future.
RexHavoc wrote: Not only will this release be too close to christmas, but people nostalgic for those good old 80s/90s GW vibes now will only have mere weeks between two of the biggest specialist game releases. I'm sure a lot of people will need to choose between Epic & TOW if they have winter bills to be paying.
Li can still be in stores 25.11 and tow is confirmed for february.
RexHavoc wrote: Not only will this release be too close to christmas, but people nostalgic for those good old 80s/90s GW vibes now will only have mere weeks between two of the biggest specialist game releases. I'm sure a lot of people will need to choose between Epic & TOW if they have winter bills to be paying.
Li can still be in stores 25.11 and tow is confirmed for february.
Even in worst case over month between the two.
Indeed. And in terms of it getting closer to Christmas, well, Blood Bowl and Necromunda were both releases around Black Friday, and there's at least another week that would allow the same for Legions Imperialis.
On their FB page, someone asked, "Where's LI?" to which FW responded, "We will let you know as soon as we get a release date for Legions Imperialis"
They don't even have a release date yet. At this point, I think late Jan - early Feb is optimistic. *sigh*
I really want to know what the screwup with the book was. This long of a delay suggests it wasn't just something simple like sections being assembled out of order, but something more serious that required a whole new print run. A new printing would have to be worked into the printer's existing backlog which could very well be the reason it's taking this long.
Yeah they absolutely know the upcoming schedule; articles are written some time in advance. There was also a recent seemingly-accidental tweet saying TOW would release in February (in line with previous rumours) but that got pulled.
lord_blackfang wrote: Yea with just 3 resin minis I would guess this slot was intended for a LI expansion wave.
Alternating between a large and then very light releases seems to be the standard pattern now since they went to two-week preorders. Before AOS the previous release was essentially just a book & single Necromunda kit.
Breotan wrote: On their FB page, someone asked, "Where's LI?" to which FW responded, "We will let you know as soon as we get a release date for Legions Imperialis"
They don't even have a release date yet. At this point, I think late Jan - early Feb is optimistic. *sigh*
I really want to know what the screwup with the book was. This long of a delay suggests it wasn't just something simple like sections being assembled out of order, but something more serious that required a whole new print run. A new printing would have to be worked into the printer's existing backlog which could very well be the reason it's taking this long.
Any problem with the book would have required a whole new print run. You can't unstitch sections and put them back together in another order. The length of delay doesn't indicate anything meaningful about what happened.
They ended up with a hole in their release schedule, which is why this week is a nothing week with just FW releases, and this is after shifting to 2 week pre-order windows.
What's happening over there? How extensive was this reprint of LI?
I am not 100% sure I got this right but apparently the same person who posted the Astra Militarum battleforce image early and has been a source of correct rumours in the past said the next preorders would be:
Battleforces -> Admech/Necrons -> LI
That would mean a November 25th preorder with either a December 2nd or 9th release depending if its a two week preorder or not.
Would at least still be a Black Friday preorder this way
Matrindur wrote: the same person who posted the Astra Militarum battleforce image early and has been a source of correct rumours in the past
Who is this?
Only heard it second hand over on tga so take it with salt, and the only thing I know is its a spanish streamer that also said a few things about TOW and seems to have a contact inside GW.
Again not 100% sure that guy is even the source for the above release rumours as I'm just connecting some dots here but we'll see next week anyway.
If the Battleforces are announced, which would be a bit early this ear as they only went up in the last November week/first December week before, the above is likely to be true.
Breotan wrote: On their FB page, someone asked, "Where's LI?" to which FW responded, "We will let you know as soon as we get a release date for Legions Imperialis"
They don't even have a release date yet. At this point, I think late Jan - early Feb is optimistic. *sigh*
I really want to know what the screwup with the book was. This long of a delay suggests it wasn't just something simple like sections being assembled out of order, but something more serious that required a whole new print run. A new printing would have to be worked into the printer's existing backlog which could very well be the reason it's taking this long.
How you decided that?
You DO realize right they never ever tell you in advance what they haven't published?
If they are to announce it on 5.11(this sunday) 6pm UK time if you ask them and they answer at 5pm that's EXACT SAME ANSWER you will get.
That's their standard copy&paste answer they give out whenever somebody asks for "when" to something GW hasn't already officially announced release date...
Trying to decide deeper meaning than "sorry we haven't yet announced officially release date" is waste of time.
Oh and if there was any problem with the book then new print run was going to be required in any case. Books were printed. They were packed. They were even sent. If book was in error that mandates new print run.
GW said by this year and so far nothing GW has done indicates further delays. Certainly not standard copy&paste answer they say down until last minute before GW officially announces date. It's GW's polite way of saying "please don't ask what we can't answer anyway". It's waste of time to ask from GW when they release something they haven't announced release date yet because the community staff aren't ALLOWED to say(quite likely they literally don't know. Can't slip something you haven't been told of...). But they sure as hell can't respond "please stop being stupid enough to ask when we can't tell. You are just wasting your and my time" Eventhough they probably get frustrated themselves when being barraged by questions they can't answer.
Breotan wrote: On their FB page, someone asked, "Where's LI?" to which FW responded, "We will let you know as soon as we get a release date for Legions Imperialis"
They don't even have a release date yet. At this point, I think late Jan - early Feb is optimistic. *sigh*
I really want to know what the screwup with the book was. This long of a delay suggests it wasn't just something simple like sections being assembled out of order, but something more serious that required a whole new print run. A new printing would have to be worked into the printer's existing backlog which could very well be the reason it's taking this long.
Any problem with the book would have required a whole new print run. You can't unstitch sections and put them back together in another order. The length of delay doesn't indicate anything meaningful about what happened.
Also, depending on at what point the decision was made, changing the book might involve unpacking and re-assembling every item that contained the book. It sounds like a logistical headache for many reasons.
tneva82 wrote: Since whole boxes were sent odds are that's what it did involve...
So yeah. Not something GW would have done lightly. Which makes curious what on earth WAS so bad.
Obviously nothing related to rules as that would have been solved by errata/put missing rules downloadable.
Indeed. It's understandable people are getting frustrated by the delay, but a delay of three to four months was always to be expected once a reprint, repacking and subsequent distribution was required (assuming that is what happened).
tneva82 wrote: Since whole boxes were sent odds are that's what it did involve...
So yeah. Not something GW would have done lightly. Which makes curious what on earth WAS so bad.
Obviously nothing related to rules as that would have been solved by errata/put missing rules downloadable.
The main reason that has been rumoured is that one of the missions was named Blood & Honour which is the name of a white nationalists group.
Another reason I heard lately was that the rulebook bindings where poorly done.
In the end we will never know (just that it should be something to do with the book as influencers where asked to send them back) but its probably a combination of everything. Any single problem would likely not been enough for GW to delay the launch but if multiple things are true they could have decided a delay and reprinting was worth it
Matrindur wrote: The main reason that has been rumoured is that one of the missions was named Blood & Honour which is the name of a white nationalists group.
I hope the reason for the reprint is something more substantive than that.
Whatever the "screwup" is, it doesn't matter. What happened with Cursed City should be telling us that people make a scandal until the thing gets actually (re)released and then same people do not care at all (mostly because they moved to the next scandal to be angry about and they never really cared about it from the beginning).
Just wait and see, meanwhile reflecting on the complete artificiality of preview hype and pre-orders (with all companies, not just GW), and just buy the game when it's actually out in stores (or maybe wait a couple years later to buy "the finished product", and never care about "limited releases /collector editions").
It's much saner that way rather than expressing your frustration of knowing of not having the great honor of pre-ordering boxes of 10mm scale space marines next week that you won't have time to paint / build after a while anyway.
You know it gets ridiculous when people are looking for rumors about the actual date of the pre-order of LI. And that other people do take time to make fake rumors on that matter in hope people actually believe it.
xttz wrote: The printing error and delay don't bother me anywhere near as much as the poor communication.
Can't blame GW to be cautious after the initial delay.
GW previews that are never "up to the Hype" self-built by unreasonnable expectations from their customers ? People are angry.
A GW product doesn't appear on sunday pre-order preview (a completely insane concept, when you think about it : a preview of the next pre-order ) ? People are angry.
Some poor guy messing up announcements on official twitter ? People are angry.
A rumor turns out not to be true, even if it was never official anyway ? People are angry.
It's always poor communication no matter what GW does. So of course after a while, they stop saying anything. Because people are getting angry anyway. Knowing the cause won't change the waiting time, see the Cursed City case for example.
It's been a while I decided to put the whole thing into perspective and stop being into the emotion (that's what Hype is). Turns out I already have a big pile of shame at home and that adding more 10mm scale space marines to the collection won't make it smaller, so waiting for more time isn't such a bad idea in the end - both for my motivation and my wallet (pre-order money is hostage money until the day the product is actually released, by the way ).
That's why I don't even mind if it gets released in 2024.
Well the way I heard it on Reddit, they recalled the books because they heard Mantic was making their own version, so they realized they better make a functioning ruleset and not just publish what they got from a cat walking across the keyboard.
lord_blackfang wrote: Well the way I heard it on Reddit, they recalled the books because they heard Mantic was making their own version, so they realized they better make a functioning ruleset and not just publish what they got from a cat walking across the keyboard.
That's a good joke...or maybe a cruel one, depending on how much you believe Mantic Games is actual competition to GW.
xttz wrote: The printing error and delay don't bother me anywhere near as much as the poor communication.
I don't mind waiting until the end of the year if only they'd just say it will be Nov or Dec, instead of this coy "sooner than you think" nonsense.
It's not poor communication, it's standard marketing communication. You never give a solid date, as if there's another delay, you've locked yourself in and will piss off people even further. If you give a woozy answer, it gives you flexibility if you need it.
lord_blackfang wrote: Well the way I heard it on Reddit, they recalled the books because they heard Mantic was making their own version, so they realized they better make a functioning ruleset and not just publish what they got from a cat walking across the keyboard.
GW wishes they had rules writers as competent as a cat walking across the keyboard.
xttz wrote: The printing error and delay don't bother me anywhere near as much as the poor communication.
I don't mind waiting until the end of the year if only they'd just say it will be Nov or Dec, instead of this coy "sooner than you think" nonsense.
It's not poor communication, it's standard marketing communication. You never give a solid date, as if there's another delay, you've locked yourself in and will piss off people even further. If you give a woozy answer, it gives you flexibility if you need it.
If they had stayed silent in the first place, you'd be correct. From what I've seen, the "sooner than you think" statements for both this and the Horus Heresy box released almost two months after that statement did nothing but rile people up.
GW wishes they had rules writers as competent as a cat walking across the keyboard.
Unnecessary insult for GW rules writers - who, by the way, tend to write for other companies when they go independant or just plainly make their own games, and that when suddenly they're not working for GW they become "instant geniuses" praised by the same people who insulted them in the past. Alessio Cavatore wrote the original Kings of Wars for Mantic Games, and he was previously writing rules for GW - at that time, he was vilipended on the internet. But when he was working with MG, oh boy was he a god.
It's a learning process, mind you, but it's a real low to target those who are genuinely doing their best at writing rules for new games. They are not responsible of all the work pressure they have to deal with, not talking about their own work calendars to release a finished version.
If they had stayed silent in the first place, you'd be correct. From what I've seen, the "sooner than you think" statements for both this and the Horus Heresy box released almost two months after that statement did nothing but rile people up.
That is poor communication.
And that reaction here above is why GW is staying silent right now.
Sarouan wrote: Unnecessary insult for GW rules writers - who, by the way, tend to write for other companies when they go independant or just plainly make their own games, and that when suddenly they're not working for GW they become "instant geniuses" praised by the same people who insulted them in the past. Alessio Cavatore wrote the original Kings of Wars for Mantic Games, and he was previously writing rules for GW - at that time, he was vilipended on the internet. But when he was working with MG, oh boy was he a god.
When was that? I was working at GW at the same time Alessio was, and all the feedback I remember is him very greatly praised for the books he was involved in, as well as for things like the LotR system, which is still very well regarded.
When was that? I was working at GW at the same time Alessio was, and all the feedback I remember is him very greatly praised for the books he was involved in, as well as for things like the LotR system, which is still very well regarded.
His work with skavens at the time of Warhammer Battle was considered unbalanced / too optimized on the internet, as he was thought to be very biased with them.
The famous Skaven book were the first draft went directly to the printer and was onr reason why Cavatore quit.
Still 6th Edition in total and 7th core are considered good, and the bad things of 7th associated with Matt Ward and not Cavatore
What other examples do you have?
Of all people who left and are praised after, which of their games has a bad reputation?
Blitz Bowl, Adeptus Titanicus, Warhammer 6th, 40k 3rd, Necromunda, Lord of the Rings?
Who are you talking about in specific and I don't mean people who wrote a WD article for 7th Edition Dark Elves, but those who worked on the bad rules, left and are now doing a better job?
personally suspect half of the trouble WHFB 8th had wasn't about Mr Ward but about a directive that unit sizes had to be expanded so that existing players had to go out and buy more than the rulebook.
then add phoned in armybooks and you have the mess they ended up with
Matrindur wrote: I am not 100% sure I got this right but apparently the same person who posted the Astra Militarum battleforce image early and has been a source of correct rumours in the past said the next preorders would be:
Battleforces -> Admech/Necrons -> LI
That would mean a November 25th preorder with either a December 2nd or 9th release depending if its a two week preorder or not.
Going back to this rumour for a moment...
GW are showing off "a new miniature for an upcoming Warhammer 40,000 codex" later today, which is almost certainly one of the rumoured additional Necron characters. Them showing this model off now rather than at the scheduled preview stream in mid-November implies an earlier release date and adds credence to that rumour.
They've also confirmed today that the November model of the month is for AOS (not LI), and more importantly the coin is something clearly intended for the xmas period:
Spoiler:
Does this all mean the LI coin has now been moved to December, and Epic will be the final big release of 2023?
Matrindur wrote: I am not 100% sure I got this right but apparently the same person who posted the Astra Militarum battleforce image early and has been a source of correct rumours in the past said the next preorders would be:
Battleforces -> Admech/Necrons -> LI
That would mean a November 25th preorder with either a December 2nd or 9th release depending if its a two week preorder or not.
Going back to this rumour for a moment...
GW are showing off "a new miniature for an upcoming Warhammer 40,000 codex" later today, which is almost certainly one of the rumoured additional Necron characters. Them showing this model off now rather than at the scheduled preview stream in mid-November implies an earlier release date and adds credence to that rumour.
They've also confirmed today that the November model of the month is for AOS (not LI), and more importantly the coin is something clearly intended for the xmas period:
Spoiler:
Does this all mean the LI coin has now been moved to December, and Epic will be the final big release of 2023?
Just wanted to post the same thing. Also if the Battleforces are moved up to the 11th as that rumour says it would free up space in December. Preorder on the 25th would also mean a release in early December which is both ideal for the monthly coin and the free mini.
Valrak was also saying in his newest video about kill team that the announced box with scouts vs striking scropions may have been moved to early next year so with that looking at the releases left this year we have:
Battleforces, Admech/Necrons according to that rumour, Legions Imperialis, and maybe a Flesh Eater courts army set if that wasn't pushed to 2024 too. That would only be 4 releases, 5 if LI gets two preorders for launch set and inital wave stuff.
We have 5 preorder weeks left this year since the preorder dates of 16th and 23th December will likely only be made to order stuff and a christmas model as they do every year. (And the 30th will likely be blank) So that lines up perfectly too.
You know it gets ridiculous when people are looking for rumors about the actual date of the pre-order of LI. And that other people do take time to make fake rumors on that matter in hope people actually believe it.
I have no intention of preordering. The only reason I care at all about the preorder date is that then we will know when we can actually order it. Or, more probably for myself, a couple weeks after that when the reviews and first impressions start coming out.
But none of that will be possible until after a date is announced.
Having pictures of different painted Legion Imperialis miniatures is always nice to look at in a White Dwarf, especially when they put a few words on how they did it. It's good to think about beginners / people like me who struggle with choosing colors and how to paint stuff.
The only reason I care at all about the preorder date is that then we will know when we can actually order it. Or, more probably for myself, a couple weeks after that when the reviews and first impressions start coming out.
Yeah, it's very human. It's just that knowing it won't make the waiting time shorter and won't change anything about adding more boxes to your pile of shame. I do find the lack of excitment as LI gets delayed a very good thing for customers : we sure have a lot of time to think about if we really want to invest money in that new game without that "impulsive buy" strategy.
About reviews / "1st impressions"...Warhammer Community articles and the White Dwarf battle report pretty much give enough data to already have a "1st impression" feeling and most of what a review will give away, IMHO.
All we can really do is wait and see about the release of LI. A lot depends on price and whatever they release in first wave and when they do so.
I'm definitely interested in it but £ only goes so far especially with Xmas looming over the horizon. Interested and wait and see is my position.
From my perspective, the good thing about this delay is that it has reduced the likelihood that I will get swept up in the new release hype and buy LI on impulse. And in the meantime I bought the new AoD boxed set, which means less space in my cupboard full of unbuilt kits. I think I'll be sticking with the 28mm version of HH.
Snord wrote: I think I'll be sticking with the 28mm version of HH.
Very understandable. I think the question is more relevant for people who didn't already go into HH and who are hesitating : in that case, I believe LI and its smaller scale is an advantage in itself for those who don't have infinite storage space at their disposal.
tneva82 wrote: And those who don't want small skirmishes
Heh, somewhat. Actually it's more a question of perspective : you can perfectly play 28mm "scale battles" with Epic size games. You just play with something like 500-1000 points on a smaller field, and it certainly takes less time too. You can also play big Apocalypse battles with 28mm, you just need to play on the whole surface of a small apartment. It really depends on time and space to play you have more than anything else.
tneva82 wrote: And those who don't want small skirmishes
Heh, somewhat. Actually it's more a question of perspective : you can perfectly play 28mm "scale battles" with Epic size games. You just play with something like 500-1000 points on a smaller field, and it certainly takes less time too. You can also play big Apocalypse battles with 28mm, you just need to play on the whole surface of a small apartment. It really depends on time and space to play you have more than anything else.
Eucept it doesn't have big scale battle if you throw more points. Rules always work for certain size. Just because you have 100k points in battle doesn't give big battle feel like game created for big battles gives.
Eucept it doesn't have big scale battle if you throw more points. Rules always work for certain size. Just because you have 100k points in battle doesn't give big battle feel like game created for big battles gives.
It just feelsmess.
Yes, rules are usually designed with a specific format to play in mind. But they're honestly not what matters when you decide to play a huge battle : the point is more about using your whole big collection of miniatures and having fun with fellow players with same purpose. You know you don't play that kind of games everyday, it's something special in a lifetime to remember.
Using 10mm or 28mm miniatures in a game is a matter of personnal preference, but it's a fact a whole company of space marines in 10mm scale is certainly faster to paint and easier to store than the same in 28mm scale. When Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronautica Imperialis were released, it was also the same factor : the opportunity to own some emblematic titans / planes at a smaller scale without having to rip your own heart of to buy one of those FW 28mm scale equivalent / having a headache to put them on your shelves once built and painted. People collect miniatures for the pleasure of it too, they don't especially intend to play with them "seriously". My collection of Aeronautica Imperialis saw, what, a few couple games in all those years at most, and boy did I buy nearly everything because I enjoyed building and collecting these small planes.
LordBlunt wrote: Going with the belief that GW will be allowing for pre-orders soon, my question is where will most players purchase the new releases from?
I nearly always use third party for new releases. In the UK at least, several of these stores will do 20% discount & free shipping online. Providing GW gets the stock to them on time then I always get the stuff delivered on the release day Saturday morning too.
LordBlunt wrote: Going with the belief that GW will be allowing for pre-orders soon, my question is where will most players purchase the new releases from?
Are the majority of us buying directly from GW?
Is eBay a worthwhile avenue for purchasing the LI box?
Is it possible to purchase from various online sites?
It's a Specialist Game, so it really depends on the concerned store's interest to sell those depending on the demand they have.
I try to support my local store as much as I can, especially since it's linked to my local club, but I know they're not interested in having stock they can't sell because there's no enough people interested in the game.
Better to contact the one you'd like to buy from if they intend to sell that or not when pre-order date is confirmed. Big online stores should sell it by default, though.
MarkNorfolk wrote: My only real fear at this point is that there isn't enough to go around and the quantities to independent stores is limited.
At release, I expect stuff will be "temporarily unavailable" and it will take a few months for them to come back (see difficulty with Horus Heresy stock for example).
But honestly, at this point, what is waiting a few more months in the end ?
Super-heavy tanks were a common sight on the battlefields of the Great Crusade, and even as the galaxy slipped into the horrors of the Horus Heresy they continued to spearhead Solar Auxilia assaults with near-impenetrable armour and massive guns. One vehicle above all was the chosen steed of Humanity’s elite – the Stormhammer.
This colossal tank is equal parts artillery battery, fortified bunker, and mobile command post, and designed to lead armoured assaults across treacherous terrain.
Squadrons of up to three Stormhammers at a time can be yours to command in Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis. As part of the elite Solar Auxilia, these super-heavies were afforded intricate armour trim, and despite their diminutive size these new miniatures capture all of it down to the individual rivets.
Come back next week for another edition of Heresy Thursday, as we approach the release of Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis and uncover more lost technology from the Age of Darkness.
The fact they only showed 1 on the image and that they didn't say plastic in the article makes me think this might be resin? I hope not but they also didn't drill out the barrel as much as on the baneblade, maybe because the resin would break if it gets too thin?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Of course, our observations could just be from a resin early cast. Which we know GW tend to do more often than not for sample pieces with the Studio.
I would expect that sort of thing to have switched entirely to 3d prints by this point?
I think they need to be honest and just admit that the 2nd edition will be out before this version.
The stormhammer is nice, but yeah without the confirmation its plastic it usually means its going to be resin. Oh well, still a decent selection of tanks in plastic so far.
We already know that a lot of what they've been showing has been stuff slated for expansions. They even mention it a bit in the White Dwarf.
Therefore, a lot of what they've shown here isn't going to be in our hands for like another 6 months or so.
But yeah, I do imagine that eventually some things will be in resin. Not every kit they've shown off has mentioned plastic or resin in the article. Thankfully, FW does a good job at the small resin bits, so even if these are resin, they'll still be a nice simple addition with good detail. I'd hope not, but we'll see. After all, Aeronautica and Titanicus also had a selection of resin things.
The dream of having 3 of these, a bunch of baneblades and leman russes, and then some medusas and basilisks... sooooooon.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Of course, our observations could just be from a resin early cast. Which we know GW tend to do more often than not for sample pieces with the Studio.
Not really, nowadays they 3d print it.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Same thing in my idiot mind. Certainly I can see an early 3d Print needing barrels drilled manually.
So it could be plastic - but I’m still expecting resin.
It'd really depends on the actual design, you might or might not need to do it.
Just to muddy the waters, the other pic from the article.
Note the Leman Russ battle cannon is solid. Now that I’m fairly certain we know is a plastic kit. Which is suggestive perhaps no hollow barrels in Legiones Imperialis, even in plastic.
The barrels on the Stormhammer have been drilled out by hand, and not very skilfully. That suggests a plastic kit, as they can mould resin barrels with hollow muzzles. Perhaps the Baneblade is multipart, like the WH40k version.
I hope its plastic. The stormhammer is my favorite baneblade chassis design. I want nothing more than a full company's worth of these beasts rolling across the table.
that design wouldn't work injection moulded from the sides or top/bottom without undercuts, resin will work fine though (I doubt the track bits are individual links either)
the russ looks like each side track could easily be one bit of plastic done from the sides - the lack of detail on the individual links for me is the give away
Hand drilled barrels = resin is a reach. GW at random seem to decide whether something has hollow barrels or not.
If anything, it could be a resin add-on for the baneblades they showed us a while back. The treads are the same on the plastic baneblade and whatever material it is for this thing.
that design wouldn't work injection moulded from the sides or top/bottom without undercuts, resin will work fine though (I doubt the track bits are individual links either)
the russ looks like each side track could easily be one bit of plastic done from the sides - the lack of detail on the individual links for me is the give away
Same tracks on the plastic Baneblade tho. Probably just the front loop is a separate piece. We know these are overdetailed for Epic scale models.
that design wouldn't work injection moulded from the sides or top/bottom without undercuts, resin will work fine though (I doubt the track bits are individual links either)
the russ looks like each side track could easily be one bit of plastic done from the sides - the lack of detail on the individual links for me is the give away
Same tracks on the plastic Baneblade tho. Probably just the front loop is a separate piece.
if thats the case it is the forward three links that are on part, the track cover could be part of the upper hull masking the rest.
ahh well, will see when/if they actually release any of this
CragHack wrote: That's 100% resin. Look at the golden detailed part that goes over two barrels. Notice the mold line that's specific only to resin
This doesn't mean the production model is necessarily resin. The painted examples for plastic models are made of resin because the plastic moulds aren't usually ready in time to get everything painted and photographed for the boxes and the books. As I understand it, they make a 3D print from the digital design and then either paint that directly or, sometimes, if a reasonable number of multiples are needed (for example, to paint a whole army), a mould is made from the 3D print and as many resin copies are made for painting as required.
So, the model in the photos probably is resin but it's not a certain indicator for the kit.
I think that's just one of those weird raised mold lines from plastic production. Dealing with them on the new HH kits, where I can't decide if I should leave the angle or file it smooth. Could go plastic or resin, but man I hope plastic.
Yeah, at least this one is definitely resin.
The mold lines in plastic models (at least in the new ones) are usually very small, sharp and straight. The one here can be clearly named as a resin miscast that would either require filing away (thus leaving uneven surface levels) or evening out with gs/miliput. Plastic does not have this kind of fun
that design wouldn't work injection moulded from the sides or top/bottom without undercuts, resin will work fine though (I doubt the track bits are individual links either)
the russ looks like each side track could easily be one bit of plastic done from the sides - the lack of detail on the individual links for me is the give away
Same tracks on the plastic Baneblade tho. Probably just the front loop is a separate piece.
if thats the case it is the forward three links that are on part, the track cover could be part of the upper hull masking the rest.
ahh well, will see when/if they actually release any of this
My memory is terrible, didn't they already say that the Baneblade was going to be plastic? And that looks like it has identical tracks.
Well, apparently Joe Vargas from the Angry Joe Show has hinted he will play Legion Imperialis this month on his last tabletop stream - didn't say when exactly, but it's pretty clear the release will be indeed in november.
CragHack wrote: Yeah, at least this one is definitely resin.
The mold lines in plastic models (at least in the new ones) are usually very small, sharp and straight. The one here can be clearly named as a resin miscast that would either require filing away (thus leaving uneven surface levels) or evening out with gs/miliput. Plastic does not have this kind of fun
You seen any of the new space marines? Some are pretty damn bad.
“Squadrons of up to three Stormhammers at a time can be yours to command in Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis. As part of the elite Solar Auxilia, these super-heavies were afforded intricate armour trim, and despite their diminutive size these new miniatures capture all of it down to the individual rivets. They’ll be available soon in resin.”
I do not recall reading that last sentence yesterday.
twentypence wrote: “Squadrons of up to three Stormhammers at a time can be yours to command in Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis. As part of the elite Solar Auxilia, these super-heavies were afforded intricate armour trim, and despite their diminutive size these new miniatures capture all of it down to the individual rivets. They’ll be available soon in resin.”
I do not recall reading that last sentence yesterday.
So if I'm totally clear on this, you can field up 3 resin stormhammers in a squadron, which will only be available to buy as a plastic kit of two models per set. If they even get released at all that is.
Couldn't be clearer.
I honestly think at this point they are weaponising incompetence with their marketing. Shove what ever junk pops in their heads to keep people riled up and talking about it as they ran out of real hype back in august. How else could this thread, amongst hundreds of other social media posts stay at the top of peoples feeds. 139 pages on this thread alone, for what amounts to about new 10 models total.
So its a plastic kit of 2 for something that can be fielded in units of 3, except it might actually be resin and not plastic at all, or resin conversion parts for a plastic kit.
Confusion level: extreme
Not all bothered by the mismatch in count to unit size. Provided I can field multiple units of them I'll be buying 3 boxes of them anyway so I can field 6, at least. Maybe more. Did I mention that the stormhammer is my favorite baneblade variant?
meah, at this point starting to lose interest in what would have been a must buy.
and no not because of whatever the models are in, but because the initial buzz has basically died. I've still got a chunk of 3d print Epic scale stuff here, dunno how bothered I am anymore though
Normally I would trust the WarCom guys more but the Facebook comment sounds like they deliberately asked about it and got that answer. Maybe whoever they asked thought they where talking about the baneblade? Thought that was meant to be four per box according to another facebook comment back when it was revealed.
Maybe it was meant this way: "Its a resin upgrade to the plastic Baneblades and you get parts for two Stormhammers" ?
The resin combo I mentioned on the last page, which I'd be more inclined to be on based on the comparison of the baneblade to the stormhammer and the different upper hull sections.
"Squadrons of up to three Stormhammers at a time can be yours to command in Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis. As part of the elite Solar Auxilia, these super-heavies were afforded intricate armour trim, and despite their diminutive size these new miniatures capture all of it down to the individual rivets. They’ll be available soon in plastic!"
chaos0xomega wrote: So its a plastic kit of 2 for something that can be fielded in units of 3, except it might actually be resin and not plastic at all, or resin conversion parts for a plastic kit.
Confusion level: extreme
Not all bothered by the mismatch in count to unit size. Provided I can field multiple units of them I'll be buying 3 boxes of them anyway so I can field 6, at least. Maybe more. Did I mention that the stormhammer is my favorite baneblade variant?
After the kit that was first resin, but plastic (only on fridays) and later is an upgrade kit made from resin but also no, now it's plastic with metal incrustations, and then only plastic again...i think i need to see the damned sprue besides the pretty picture of the tank (wich by the way, is painted at a "meh" lvl by comparison to the 28 mm figures)so much
Geifer wrote: Ah, the magic of mysteriously mutating material! What will they think of next?
Metal?
METAL!
I will say, as entertaining as GW has been for the past few days, it'll be good to finally see Legions Imperialis out in the wild. Between the 40k launch and Legions delay the last half year has been pretty slow. It's time to move on.
chaos0xomega wrote: So its a plastic kit of 2 for something that can be fielded in units of 3, except it might actually be resin and not plastic at all, or resin conversion parts for a plastic kit.
Confusion level: extreme
Not all bothered by the mismatch in count to unit size. Provided I can field multiple units of them I'll be buying 3 boxes of them anyway so I can field 6, at least. Maybe more. Did I mention that the stormhammer is my favorite baneblade variant?
Geifer wrote: Ah, the magic of mysteriously mutating material! What will they think of next?
Metal?
METAL!
I will say, as entertaining as GW has been for the past few days, it'll be good to finally see Legions Imperialis out in the wild. Between the 40k launch and Legions delay the last half year has been pretty slow. It's time to move on.
It feels like I have waited since the end of time for New Epic. In any form.
The delay is of course frustrating, but I can handle it
chaos0xomega wrote: So its a plastic kit of 2 for something that can be fielded in units of 3, except it might actually be resin and not plastic at all, or resin conversion parts for a plastic kit.
Confusion level: extreme
Not all bothered by the mismatch in count to unit size. Provided I can field multiple units of them I'll be buying 3 boxes of them anyway so I can field 6, at least. Maybe more. Did I mention that the stormhammer is my favorite baneblade variant?
Hardly surprising 1 box fills full squad anyway. You can't get blood stalkers in box of 15 anyway. Or necron warriors in box of 20.
What facebook group tells I ignore anyway. For real information I wait for preorder announcements. Before that whatever FB tells is worthless anyway.'
Resin, plastic. That itself doesn't bother me. Resin stopped bothering me the moment I learned existent of "super glue" instead of "plastic glue".
Is it THAT hard to say heres a box which makes a unit without having to buy additional boxes.
Takes the piss.
Up to 3 in a unit. So units with 2, and possibly even 1, are legal.
Yes, it's also legal to eat a bun with no hot dog, doesn't make it any less infuriating.
What a nonsensical comparison. There are still tanks, so there's still a hot dog. You're complaining because the foot-long dog isn't the default size.
Its not a daft comparison.
Its like having a unit of 10 Eldar...but they come in boxes of 6.
They know exactly what they they are doing and what they are forcing their customers into, lets not pretend they dont.
Problem with that example is that in his case you can make a legal unit of 6 Eldar, or even 3.
With 3 being the max size, a squadron still runs with 1 or 2 vehicles. So with a box of 2 you could run two squads of 1 or one squad of 2. If you want to run a squad of 3 you need to buy a second box, then you can run 3 in a squad and have a squad on 1 for a different formation.
Think of Ork boys. You get 10 in a box and they used to be able to be run in squads up to 30.
Skinflint - I am sure there is a joke in there somewhere
On a side note, that is one of the things I miss from back in the day. Having a bit of pocket money and being able to pick up a single blister pack of something like a Super Heavy (although think those were a bit more pricey!) - now everything is in larger quantities and in boxes so kids coming into it these days can't really do that, although that is a change in the industry in general I guess with so much moving over to plastics.
Baneblades can be taken in units of six according to an early Warhammer Community article. And come in boxes of four, don't they? Seems the math is about the same. For a full unit you need a box and a half. So actually two boxes. Hard to suspect that's the sales department having a say in writing the rules.
What I'm interested in, is there a fluff or game reason why Stormhammer detachments are only half the size of Baneblade detachments? Is the tank that much better? That much rarer? Or is it just some inconsistency that's better explained by outside meddling?
Pacific wrote: Skinflint - I am sure there is a joke in there somewhere
On a side note, that is one of the things I miss from back in the day. Having a bit of pocket money and being able to pick up a single blister pack of something like a Super Heavy (although think those were a bit more pricey!) - now everything is in larger quantities and in boxes so kids coming into it these days can't really do that, although that is a change in the industry in general I guess with so much moving over to plastics.
I miss this too, even with the access to adult money and not having to worry about buying things in 'ones'. But what I do is buy up random bundles of old blisters, and if I ever get the pang I just treat myself to painting a single one from the big box (well...big boxes )
Its an odd treat but there is something fun in doing so.
What I'm interested in, is there a fluff or game reason why Stormhammer detachments are only half the size of Baneblade detachments? Is the tank that much better? That much rarer? Or is it just some inconsistency that's better explained by outside meddling?
This colossal tank is equal parts artillery battery, fortified bunker, and mobile command post, and designed to lead armoured assaults across treacherous terrain.
The Stormhammer is more specialized than the Baneblade, and it would make sense he's available in fewer numbers too (Baneblade being the "default super heavy tank" in the imperial guard).
Other than fluff, it's also more heavily armed and is certainly more resilient in terms of rules.
2nd Ed? Stormhammer, Baneblade, Shadowsword and latterly Stormblade could be taken as singles via support card, or a company of three via company card. But, no mix and match on the company card.
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Pacific wrote: Skinflint - I am sure there is a joke in there somewhere
On a side note, that is one of the things I miss from back in the day. Having a bit of pocket money and being able to pick up a single blister pack of something like a Super Heavy (although think those were a bit more pricey!) - now everything is in larger quantities and in boxes so kids coming into it these days can't really do that, although that is a change in the industry in general I guess with so much moving over to plastics.
Depends what’s happened with pocket money. For me, the most important thing about Old Epic was, with very few exceptions? If I bought a new blister or box of models? I was buying a functional unit. So yes the price was nice back then. But the convenience was what really worked for me,
tneva82 wrote: Hardly surprising 1 box fills full squad anyway. You can't get blood stalkers in box of 15 anyway. Or necron warriors in box of 20.
That said, you absolutely should be able to do exactly that. I remember that this was one of the biggest issues people had wit WBF, after all.... plus it's what GW seemed to want to do.
Problem with that example is that in his case you can make a legal unit of 6 Eldar, or even 3.
With 3 being the max size, a squadron still runs with 1 or 2 vehicles. So with a box of 2 you could run two squads of 1 or one squad of 2. If you want to run a squad of 3 you need to buy a second box, then you can run 3 in a squad and have a squad on 1 for a different formation.
Think of Ork boys. You get 10 in a box and they used to be able to be run in squads up to 30.
Exactly this. Selling a box that can make a unit that's legal, but not maximum size, has been pretty common from GW over the decades.
Exactly this. Selling a box that can make a unit that's legal, but not maximum size, has been pretty common from GW over the decades.
Which is fine. It gets obnoxious when multiples of the box don't add up to maximum size without leftovers and outright scummy when the leftovers don't add up to at least a minimum sized second unit.
Isn't 'squad sizes are a multiple of number of models you get in a box' GW's new default since 10th edition 40k? I'd presume they'd follow a similar pattern for epic.
Shakalooloo wrote: Isn't 'squad sizes are a multiple of number of models you get in a box' GW's new default since 10th edition 40k? I'd presume they'd follow a similar pattern for epic.
From what we've seen so far they've kept pretty close to that. Infantry & support units are usually taken as 2 or 4 models at a time, in line with having multiple identical sprues. Tanks are a bit more flexible but that's likely because players may want to build models with different options from the same box (e.g. baneblade / hellhammer).
The Stormhammer seems to be a weird exception and it makes me wonder if the unit was originally planned to be done in resin then changed.
Manchu wrote: I think at this point it’s probably not
Unless I have it somehow confused I think we had a rumor that Legions Imperialis is supposed to get a November pre-order. I know this whole nonsense keeps dragging on, but it's still too early to rule out a 2023 release.
And on the bright side, if you think the game won't get released before Christmas and GW insists that it comes out sooner than you think, we're good. Right?
Manchu wrote: So is this not coming in time for Christmas or what
Very unlikely given that 2024 will probably kick off with The Old World around February, and then AoS 4th edition announced in May. They need to get it out the door now...
Manchu wrote: I think at this point it’s probably not
Unless I have it somehow confused I think we had a rumor that Legions Imperialis is supposed to get a November pre-order. I know this whole nonsense keeps dragging on, but it's still too early to rule out a 2023 release.
And on the bright side, if you think the game won't get released before Christmas and GW insists that it comes out sooner than you think, we're good. Right?
Catastrophising for a moment, The risk is that by the time they actually get any prices out there, a large portion of the available fans have already committed their Christmas funds to other things and the whole thing is a damp squib. This leads to a downward spiral of support and corporate interest and we all end up wearing sackcloth and toiling in the mines for our new robot overlords… or something.
Shakalooloo wrote: Isn't 'squad sizes are a multiple of number of models you get in a box' GW's new default since 10th edition 40k? I'd presume they'd follow a similar pattern for epic.
Buying a box and getting a whole unit is nice, and it’s not something GW have always done. It wasn’t until mass plasticification of the various ranges that we avoided having to buy a box and a blister or two to get desired weapon combos (such as the Space Marine Plasma Cannon in 2nd Ed)
The Stormhammer at least comes in a box of two, which is more than a single unit in terms of content. Buy three, and you have a decent amount of choice in how you want to deploy them - so unless your army list dictates otherwise, we shouldn’t end up paying money for models we can’t use. As in, two to a box and max unit size of three would be far worse if your entire army can only field one unit of Stormhammers.
Which….may yet be the case, as we’ve not seen a huge amount of army design rules at the moment.
. Otherwise I have all the STL files I really need
unless they also pack them long with Dominus knights now 
METAL! 
