Manchu wrote: So is this not coming in time for Christmas or what
Only GW knows and they're not telling...
I'm beginning to think even GW doesn't know. Bear in mind that they have to rework thousands of boxes alongside everything else they have to be doing, AND they'll need to make damn certain that the wrong books get discarded and don't accidentally slip through.
Not to mention the possibility they're still waiting to get the books.
Manchu wrote: I think at this point it’s probably not
Unless I have it somehow confused I think we had a rumor that Legions Imperialis is supposed to get a November pre-order. I know this whole nonsense keeps dragging on, but it's still too early to rule out a 2023 release.
And on the bright side, if you think the game won't get released before Christmas and GW insists that it comes out sooner than you think, we're good. Right?
Catastrophising for a moment, The risk is that by the time they actually get any prices out there, a large portion of the available fans have already committed their Christmas funds to other things and the whole thing is a damp squib. This leads to a downward spiral of support and corporate interest and we all end up wearing sackcloth and toiling in the mines for our new robot overlords… or something.
That's certainly a possibility. Also don't forget the withering fields. I think there should be withering fields in there somewhere.
The thing is, what are they going to do? They've ordered a ton of new books on super short notice that need printing, packing and shipping. Even short delays will make themselves felt disproportionately and there's precious little they can do to compensate for it if the goal is to release with a delay rather than finding a wholly new release slot sometime later, which it seems is a given the way GW operates.
One would hope that any performance analysis at GW keeps that in mind.
That seems unlikely given the leaks & inside info we have so far:
Review copies were sent to content creators in early July, resulting in the first rules leaks. GW have therefore very likely been aware of any issues at some point that month, and started on plan B.
There was a noticable point in mid-July where WarCom preview articles built up to almost daily, then randomly stopped for a week. That indicates a change of plan, so there's a good chance any replacements were ordered by the end of July.
We know from ex-staff that GW can get books printed in the UK with 4-week leadtimes.
There was a further leak in October showing a shrink-wrapped rulebook with 'printed in the UK' on the back. That's most likely to be a replacement copy sent back to reviewers.
That's further supported by the post on the last page saying that a content creator will be doing a public online review for LI this month.
Obviously the biggest bottleneck to this situation is getting all of the launch boxes repacked. If GW had arranged for airfreight delivery of the books to their regional distribution centres in September or October latest, then I think that's plenty of time to get everything sorted out and released this year.
Well remember, they pribably aren't just having to repack those books in the UK, they are having to do it globally. It sounds like at the time they realized the issue they were already positioning stock for launch and had atocks in distribution centers around the world. I expect GW is printing the revised books in the UK and probably air freight ingredients them overseas and then having to repack them in the field for major markets, and they might not be set up for that. Then you have minor markets (ex - Japan) where they might not have the infrastructure to support that, they might need to send pallets of LI to somewhere in Aus/NZ, repack them there, and then ship back to Japan.
The alternative is they had to ship everything back to the UK and then ship it back to the field, but that seems excessive.
chaos0xomega wrote: Well remember, they pribably aren't just having to repack those books in the UK, they are having to do it globally. It sounds like at the time they realized the issue they were already positioning stock for launch and had atocks in distribution centers around the world. I expect GW is printing the revised books in the UK and probably air freight ingredients them overseas and then having to repack them in the field for major markets, and they might not be set up for that. Then you have minor markets (ex - Japan) where they might not have the infrastructure to support that, they might need to send pallets of LI to somewhere in Aus/NZ, repack them there, and then ship back to Japan.
The alternative is they had to ship everything back to the UK and then ship it back to the field, but that seems excessive.
but if all that were the case, why drop an article saying 'sooner than you think'?
Also in the latest Heresy Thursday they said "Come back next week for another edition of Heresy Thursday, as we approach the release of Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis" so I would be really surprised if we didn't get a preorder this month
chaos0xomega wrote: Well remember, they pribably aren't just having to repack those books in the UK, they are having to do it globally. It sounds like at the time they realized the issue they were already positioning stock for launch and had atocks in distribution centers around the world. I expect GW is printing the revised books in the UK and probably air freight ingredients them overseas and then having to repack them in the field for major markets, and they might not be set up for that. Then you have minor markets (ex - Japan) where they might not have the infrastructure to support that, they might need to send pallets of LI to somewhere in Aus/NZ, repack them there, and then ship back to Japan.
The alternative is they had to ship everything back to the UK and then ship it back to the field, but that seems excessive.
but if all that were the case, why drop an article saying 'sooner than you think'?
Extreme hopium overdose on GW's part. Working in a factory myself, this kind of rework always takes longer than you'd like to think.
Matrindur wrote: The current rumors are: (Preorder dates)
Battleforces 11th Nov
Admech/Necrons 18th Nov
Legions Imperialis 25th Nov
And we only have to wait 8 more hours to see if this turns out true
Current rumour is the 18th pre order with release on the 2nd of dec, gets it up before black friday/cyber monday so people don't blow all their money on a big tv or other stuff.
The only definitive thing that we have now for a release date is a statement right around the postponement announcing later this year. Subsequent statements haven't said anything definite. Even "Sooner than you think" doesn't mean much in marketing speak.
I still expect that it will come out this year. But I'm not ruling out that it's quietly been pushed back to early next.
Two content creators said recently that both of them already received the revised rulebook and that their embargo would end „mid November“.
This suggest, that all ducks are in a row again and the release/preorder is indeed within the next four weeks or so.
Really hoping we get a announcement soon (er than we think), because I'm starting to get really afraid that GW will have the tentation to get everything pushed together to bring it back "on schedule" and clear inventory space, which would bring release fatigue for the audience. And if sales aren't up to GW's expectations, the game could get AI-ed soon (er than we think as well).
Matrindur wrote: The current rumors are: (Preorder dates)
Battleforces 11th Nov
Admech/Necrons 18th Nov
Legions Imperialis 25th Nov
And we only have to wait 8 more hours to see if this turns out true
So far, so accurate.
xttz wrote: The main thing I'm expecting today is Kill Team, as this is realistically the last slot that would be an Autumn release as the roadmap said.
It's entirely possible that launches alone, alongside LI, or alongside battleforces as well.
In spite of what some people would have you believe, there are twenty days of fall in December.
Which doesn't preclude the possibility that Kill Team is delayed, of course.
Geifer wrote: In spite of what some people would have you believe, there are twenty days of fall in December.
Which doesn't preclude the possibility that Kill Team is delayed, of course.
GW doesn't work by Fall, but by Autumn; we here in the UK generally just divide the seasons neatly by starting at certain months.
I doubt I'm the only Brit reading this who's not so sure about that. I certainly don't and, from a quick check, even the Meteorological Office says "Usually, when we talk about the first day of autumn we are referring to the astronomical autumn which is defined by the Earth's axis and orbit around the Sun.
So, yes, meteorological autumn comes up plenty but I don't think it's accurate to say we "generally" use it, nor is it sensible therefore to assume it's what GW mean by it.
GW doesn't work by Fall, but by Autumn; we here in the UK generally just divide the seasons neatly by starting at certain months.
Indeed. In spite of what some people believe there are two accepted definitions for when seasons occur. GW have consistently used the meteorological definition on their roadmaps, so winter is Dec/Jan/Feb.
What has been a little fuzzy is if they're referring to the preorder or in-store date,
Spoiler:
or if Kill Team has been delayed a little from the original plan posted in May
Greenfield wrote: I doubt I'm the only Brit reading this who's not so sure about that. I certainly don't and, from a quick check, even the Meteorological Office says "Usually, when we talk about the first day of autumn we are referring to the astronomical autumn which is defined by the Earth's axis and orbit around the Sun.
So, yes, meteorological autumn comes up plenty but I don't think it's accurate to say we "generally" use it, nor is it sensible therefore to assume it's what GW mean by it.
Who ever listens to what the Met Office says? Even on their own website they say:
The Met Office wrote:However, at the Met Office, we often use a meteorological definition of the seasons. By the meteorological calendar, the first day of winter is always 1 December; ending on 28 (or 29 during a Leap Year) February.
Still no rumors on the price of the box set, right?
Also, did they ever announce a standalone infantry kit for Marines or Auxilia? I was just going through a bunch of the Warcom posts, I saw where they announced tanks, support units, and all that other stuff, but theres nothing for the basic troops and poor bloody infantry. One would expect that to be part of the launch wave, and if not then certainly included not long after release, but as best I can tell theres nothing. Possible the Legions Imperialis launch box will be like the Age of Darkness box and be a regular stock item? Otherwise, whoever doesn't score themselves a copy or two of the launch box won't really be able to build an army for the game unless a vehicle and dreadnought only force is an option?
Greenfield wrote: I doubt I'm the only Brit reading this who's not so sure about that. I certainly don't and, from a quick check, even the Meteorological Office says "Usually, when we talk about the first day of autumn we are referring to the astronomical autumn which is defined by the Earth's axis and orbit around the Sun.
So, yes, meteorological autumn comes up plenty but I don't think it's accurate to say we "generally" use it, nor is it sensible therefore to assume it's what GW mean by it.
Who ever listens to what the Met Office says? Even on their own website they say:
The Met Office wrote:However, at the Met Office, we often use a meteorological definition of the seasons. By the meteorological calendar, the first day of winter is always 1 December; ending on 28 (or 29 during a Leap Year) February.
Yes, of course they mention both – I'm just questioning whether it's accurate to say we "generally" use the meteorological seasons. I don't, and couldn't safely generalise about everyone else, and am simply pointing out that the Met Office's site says we "usually" talk about autumn in the astronomical sense. You might be right – I don't know – but it's a generalisation I can't see much evidence for.
Well, I mean - As I pointed out theres no announcement of standalone infantry kits that I can find, so it seems that the launch box is pretty much mandatory for new players, and thus I assume it will not be allowed to sell out.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: So what are the odds that GW don’t release nearly enough boxes and most people end up waiting another 9 months?
Pretty much this. I'm also expecting them to raise the price on the sets (not that we'd actually know, as pre-order prices never leaked) to cover for their mistakes with the rules.
I fully expect for them to finally put up the pre-order, suddenly all the "influencers" that were sent free sets to go mad showing them off, only for no one to be able to buy it anyway. Much like that New Zealand youtube channel showing off the 10 grands worth of MESBG terrain kits sent by GW earlier this year, only for them to be constantly out of stock for the few months the kits were actually available before they discontinued them.
At this point, might as well just wait for buying armies when they do some Christmas battelforce in a year or two and the rest of the range is reliably in stock.
I have no illusions, here. If something LI goes "temporarily out of stock" so close to Christmas, I don't expect it's coming back before 2024.
But I don't mind and I won't rush to pre-order either. If something is out, then it's out and It'll give me an excuse to spare my wallet for a bit more of time.
Sarouan wrote: I have no illusions, here. If something LI goes "temporarily out of stock" so close to Christmas, I don't expect it's coming back before 2024.
But I don't mind and I won't rush to pre-order either. If something is out, then it's out and It'll give me an excuse to spare my wallet for a bit more of time.
I have no illusions, here. If something LI goes "temporarily out of stock" so close to Christmas, I don't expect it's coming back before 2025*.
chaos0xomega wrote: Well, I mean - As I pointed out theres no announcement of standalone infantry kits that I can find, so it seems that the launch box is pretty much mandatory for new players, and thus I assume it will not be allowed to sell out.
heh, there you go, making assumptions ^^
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Sarouan wrote: I have no illusions, here. If something LI goes "temporarily out of stock" so close to Christmas, I don't expect it's coming back before 2024.
But I don't mind and I won't rush to pre-order either. If something is out, then it's out and It'll give me an excuse to spare my wallet for a bit more of time.
No skin off my back either, no. I expect the rules will be obtainable either way, and honestly, that's the first thing I want to check before investing on it.
chaos0xomega wrote: Well, I mean - As I pointed out theres no announcement of standalone infantry kits that I can find, so it seems that the launch box is pretty much mandatory for new players, and thus I assume it will not be allowed to sell out.
I took the preview articles to be there primarily to showcase the models, with any information on how they're boxed as a bonus or clarification. If that's GW's intention, they wouldn't necessarily speak of how starter box units are made available separately until the pre-order announcement of those units.
There's every chance that infantry gets released separately alongside the starter box, especially if the delay sees a compression of the release schedule to make up lost time.
Not announcing the separate infantry kits until after the box is released is pretty common for GW. Especially since for GW the kit counts as released as soon as the launch box is released so the seperate boxes will likely not get revealed beforehand but only in the preorder announcement itself.
I expect one week for the launch set, all the AT/AI stuff and maybe the most important individual boxes like rhinos.
One week for everything else in the first wave and the individual boxes for the launch set stuff.
And then another week for the wave 2 stuff.
And all of that will likely not be subsequent weeks but with something else in-between.
The 25th seems pretty save for the box preorder, the 2nd December could be something else with the 9th for the wave 1 stuff and the wave 2 stuff coming next year.
I don't expect everything to come out in just one pre-order wave, but it's pretty clear in the former articles there will be a separate box for both infantries - space marines and guard. Wait and see to know when they'll come out.
Indeed, or as Land Raiders not being part of the core rule set, or available upon release of the game perhaps?
This was never the point. Land Raiders as miniatures will be available in a separate box, no matter how their rules will be treated or when they will be available.
It is about a "rumor" saying infantry miniature sprues will only be available in the starter box bundle ever. Which is clearly not the case here.
You guys have misconstrued the statement entirely, but that's typical dakka.
The point is that GW hasn't announced standalone infantry sets yet, which means they are not part of the ***launch*** wave. Never said they wouldn't come eventually, but the point is that without them being released it's not possible to build an army without buying the launch box.
Past patterns indicate that it is not an "unannounced release" - there were no standalone infantry sets announced w leviathan for example, lo and behold the standalone sets weren't released until months later. By contrast, the standalone infantry kits for horus heresy were revealed prior to the release of the Age of Darkness box, and were in fact available upon launch.
Thus, logic demands that there is no imminent infantry kit on the table, not in the first wave at least, so either the LI box is intended to be the primary point of entry for all new players or gw is launching a product that may potentially not have an entry point at all for anyone who was unfortunate enough to not get a launch box before it sold out.
chaos0xomega wrote: You guys have misconstrued the statement entirely, but that's typical dakka.
The point is that GW hasn't announced standalone infantry sets yet, which means they are not part of the ***launch*** wave. Never said they wouldn't come eventually, but the point is that without them being released it's not possible to build an army without buying the launch box.
Past patterns indicate that it is not an "unannounced release" - there were no standalone infantry sets announced w leviathan for example, lo and behold the standalone sets weren't released until months later. By contrast, the standalone infantry kits for horus heresy were revealed prior to the release of the Age of Darkness box, and were in fact available upon launch.
Thus, logic demands that there is no imminent infantry kit on the table, not in the first wave at least, so either the LI box is intended to be the primary point of entry for all new players or gw is launching a product that may potentially not have an entry point at all for anyone who was unfortunate enough to not get a launch box before it sold out.
For Leviathan the units could wait months as you don't need them for an army. For Heresy you needed some infantry so we got MKIII/MKIV with the launch. But the actual core box MKVI weren't available at launch but two weeks later and I don't think they got a specific reveal for their 20-man boxes, only the MKIII/MKIV.
I think LI will have the same structure, I don't expect them to release them with the first preorder but I don't think we will have to wait months for them, more like a few weeks, exactly because you can't really build an army without them.
Problem with LI is that because of the delay we already got advertising for the 2nd wave of models before the first wave is out
hence it looks like that the content of the launch box is not part of that first and second wave but might be in a 3rd wave that is yet not previewed
with the general plan would have been to get the core box out, than the supplement and additional vehicles to get people with said box to expand their collection (like instead of buying the box 3 times to get an army, buying the supplement vehicles) and after that releasing the stuff for people that want to start small without the core box
now because of the delay there is a chance that the 3rd wave will be available together with the core box, but as it was not shown yet but the release should be "soon", chance is low
PS: and no, GW won't delay everything else also for months, past releases have shown that they are not that flexible and rather release stuff on plan if possible no matter if it makes sense or not
chaos0xomega wrote: You guys have misconstrued the statement entirely, but that's typical dakka.
The point is that GW hasn't announced standalone infantry sets yet, which means they are not part of the ***launch*** wave. Never said they wouldn't come eventually, but the point is that without them being released it's not possible to build an army without buying the launch box.
.
And you have proof they aren't right away...where? Nowhere. Just pulling ideas out of thin air with nothing to back off from.
GW expects people to wait for future to build armies? Lol. No.
Why would GW shows "here's picture of infantry". Oh and wait! "Here's exact same picture of same infantry!!"
Yeah. That makes sense. Show same picture twice what you saw week ago. That SURE builds hype And sure doesn't lead people get angry that whole god damn article of preview was wasted seeing exact same picture as already seen.
If only sitting in the warehouse, then they should have released the repackaged Titanicus items in the meantime. Otherwise, we know its on the way this side of christmas( last they said ) and we're not dealing with a Cursed City situation.
SamusDrake wrote: If only sitting in the warehouse, then they should have released the repackaged Titanicus items in the meantime. Otherwise, we know its on the way this side of christmas( last they said ) and we're not dealing with a Cursed City situation.
The only reason I can think of why it would make sense to not release them is that they obviously are already repackaged so have the Legions Imperialis name on them instead of Adeptus Titanicus and they didn't want people in stores ask where the rest of the game is just to be told it doesn't exist yet.
Of course they could still have released them as webstore exklusives for the time being then, using the white boxes without art or name on them.
If a boxed set is limited edition, then anything inside usually isn't sold separately until later. That's likely to ensure the box isn't left in stock indefinitely. See: Leviathan and last years IG launch for 40k.
However if a boxed set is a long term item they will often release some or all of the components separately at the same time. Typically this has no prior announcement ahead of the Sunday announcement article.See: HH AOD
The key detail here is that we still don't know if the LI launch box is a permanent product or not. If it is then I expect to see separate infantry available on launch. If not then they'll most likely wait, and release infantry with a separate rulebook product some time later.
The same guy who was correct about the whole Age of Sigmar Ironjawz release and the preorder dates for the Tyranid and Space Marine releases just said Legions Imperialis would release on the 2nd December. So either 25th or 18th preorder depending if its a two or one week preorder and as another rumour that correctly predicted the Battleforce preorder date said preorder on the 25th I think a one week preorder on the 25th is basically confirmed.
"The first place that the exact launch date will be confirmed is from a photo taken by the shaky, sweating hands of a dude in a toilet cubicle in Poland, moments before the GW enforcers smash down the door and murder him"
Sure, keep piling on the poor employee guy who you know can't answer you on the official social media unless he wants to be fired. That's a great move showing how mature you are.
There's nothing more useless than trying to ask community staff about launch dates. They can't tell it. You have better chance of winning lottery without entering than getting gw staff reveal prelrder date outside sunday article.
Staff...can't...tell...it.
Asking them is wasting everybody's time and getting eyerolls by the staff who has to waste time to answer worthless question.
Why bother ? Last time someone did that and the poor guy actually answering, it turned out it was not what happened and the backlash was even fiercer for both GW and the guy in question.
You know their twitter account isn't there for that. It's for engagement, not for answering questions they shouldn't answer for their own good.
Sotahullu wrote: I am going to die of old age before LI comes out at this rate.
I already feel needing walking stick when going to pick up the set.
Just think about us Xenos fans who are likely expecting Xenos to possibly maybe make an appearance IF this game does well and IF GW want to do it and IF they do Chaos corrupted stuff first and such.
There's nothing more useless than trying to ask community staff about launch dates. They can't tell it. You have better chance of winning lottery without entering than getting gw staff reveal prelrder date outside sunday article.
Staff...can't...tell...it.
Asking them is wasting everybody's time and getting eyerolls by the staff who has to waste time to answer worthless question.
Not only can't they tell there's a good chance that they don't even know the dates. GW keeps a lot of info segmented and the social media might even just a small external firm who gets articles and content from GW and brushes up a few posts for them. So they might not even be in the same building let alone the same full organisation or such.
Regardless they will never say anything that hasn't been officially said elsewhere already. Very occasionally they give out a little more info, but really they are there to deliver and confirm information that is already released and they won't tease out more info than that.
Nothing wrong with asking somebody representing GW for information in my opinion.
You as a customer are within your rights to ask a release date. They can pass the info on asking for info and the company will make a decision.
Keeping customers in the dark...or giving our silly hints like 'sooner than you think' is worse than a customer asking a question imho, so long as its dont politely.
Not telling information that isn't confirmed for whatever reason is not "keeping customers in the dark"...it's about not saying something they could regret.
There's nothing worse and unforgivable by customers to give them "false hope" by telling about a release date that turns out not to be that one. Like they did for LI in august, and which is why they're super extra cautious this time. If they gotta be blamed whatever they decide to do, better be it by being cautious, I say.
Not telling information that isn't confirmed for whatever reason is not "keeping customers in the dark"...it's about not saying something they could regret.
There's nothing worse and unforgivable by customers to give them "false hope" by telling about a release date that turns out not to be that one. Like they did for LI in august, and which is why they're super extra cautious this time. If they gotta be blamed whatever they decide to do, better be it by being cautious, I say.
but nobody made them say 'it will be out sooner than you think'
I think most of us thought it would be announced by now.
It wouldnt be THAT hard to make a statement, without thinking about it at all, just typing, to the effect of 'our aim is to have the game release early December but it is very difficult given the busy release schedule and we will update you all within the next few weeks to confirm if this will be the case, or if we will sadly for you, release in early 2024. With a little thought, it could be better obviously.
About the boxed infantry, core box, and entry point... and for all of those that after 143 pages still have no idea about the game, about 30K, about 40k or about Heresy: you don't need infantry to play, armoured companies are CORE.
They already slipped the release date, I get them being tepid about any promises/specificity in terms of new release date until it's a certainty. Under promise and over deliver is tough when they've already blown a promise so I get it. In camera sales we'd always give a long shot estimation for product delivery/arrival, so that when it came in a week or two early we'd look like heroes and if it was late, we have made no promises that weren't well within a few missed shipments. So short of it being a supply issue on not logistics on our end, which were very tight, people generally would get their stuff early and be very happy to get that phone call.
I think the 18th rumour is seeming more likely with release on the 2nd. Especailly given the sort of round up remind everyone the game is coming warcom article. Which will be a useful resource to send friends still on the fence about splitting a starter as its broken down article by article. There's a question of if they'll hold some of the contents of the starter box back in terms of releasing as their own kits like the infantry. For example, I'd be surprised to see the warhound reboxing with the new sprue initially, the dire wolf perhaps but again it's not in the starter.
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SU-152 wrote: About the boxed infantry, core box, and entry point... and for all of those that after 143 pages still have no idea about the game, about 30K, about 40k or about Heresy: you don't need infantry to play, armoured companies are CORE.
Bit concerned about that, I don't think you're wrong I just really hope for combined arms as like a core army building principle. Giant units of tanks and not much more sounds a bit boring.
SU-152 wrote: About the boxed infantry, core box, and entry point... and for all of those that after 143 pages still have no idea about the game, about 30K, about 40k or about Heresy: you don't need infantry to play, armoured companies are CORE.
Bit concerned about that, I don't think you're wrong I just really hope for combined arms as like a core army building principle. Giant units of tanks and not much more sounds a bit boring.
Pretty sure that armor units are not Core selections, but that there are formations that just have armor in them. I believe LI classifies Core as basic infantry from what we have seen. I can’t recall if there is anything specific about which units can claim objectives, but I think infantry get a bonus. (And can hide in buildings.)
Hmm, maybe they will give more detailed rule data for Thursday. We can hope.
SU-152 wrote: About the boxed infantry, core box, and entry point... and for all of those that after 143 pages still have no idea about the game, about 30K, about 40k or about Heresy: you don't need infantry to play, armoured companies are CORE.
Bit concerned about that, I don't think you're wrong I just really hope for combined arms as like a core army building principle. Giant units of tanks and not much more sounds a bit boring.
Pretty sure that armor units are not Core selections, but that there are formations that just have armor in them. I believe LI classifies Core as basic infantry from what we have seen. I can’t recall if there is anything specific about which units can claim objectives, but I think infantry get a bonus. (And can hide in buildings.)
Hmm, maybe they will give more detailed rule data for Thursday. We can hope.
I believe you're quite correct, it's more the concern that terrain and amount of buildings might be highly variable from board to board and group to group. Tanks aren't the be all end all but without buildings or adequate cover I worry about infantry's ability to tip the scales. Planes might come along and blow up all the tanks, but I just sorta hope people need to "eat their broccoli" and have a bare minimum of infantry and a handful of stuff other than just tanks. Here's hoping.
Also apparenlty the next white dwarf has LI pics, specifically of painted imperial fists
Not an expert in marketing at all, but it seems to me that if you have a big project that gets delayed, the best thing is to just release a statement saying “we have had to delay due to logistical/quality assurance/whatever reason, at this stage we can’t say when the release will be, but stay tuned and we’ll let you know, join the mailing list to be notified”…. then go dark on the project until there’s a more solid release date that can restart the hype train closer to release.
It seems like keeping the hype train rolling while also not giving an indication of release date perhaps just draws the ire of potential customers. Hell, even though I’m not 100% sure I’ll buy into LI, there’s been a couple of other things I didn’t buy thinking “LI is just around the corner”, not that I massively care but it’s money I might have otherwise spent.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Not an expert in marketing at all, but it seems to me that if you have a big project that gets delayed, the best thing is to just release a statement saying “we have had to delay due to logistical/quality assurance/whatever reason, at this stage we can’t say when the release will be, but stay tuned and we’ll let you know, join the mailing list to be notified”…. then go dark on the project until there’s a more solid release date that can restart the hype train closer to release.
It seems like keeping the hype train rolling while also not giving an indication of release date perhaps just draws the ire of potential customers. Hell, even though I’m not 100% sure I’ll buy into LI, there’s been a couple of other things I didn’t buy thinking “LI is just around the corner”, not that I massively care but it’s money I might have otherwise spent.
Funny. That's what gw did.
But gw never says concrete date even without delays before sunday comes up. And hype train always starts before that sunday.
So for all products you think gw should start hyping only after sunday announcement? Note how for all products beside LI now there's been hype before sunday so guess all that should also be moved to post-sunday announcement?
Agree with AllSeeingSkink there that just putting it back in a box for a while might have been more sensible. But perhaps they didn't know how long the delay would be initially, and the rule reprints and repackaging are taking onger than expected?
SU-152 wrote: About the boxed infantry, core box, and entry point... and for all of those that after 143 pages still have no idea about the game, about 30K, about 40k or about Heresy: you don't need infantry to play, armoured companies are CORE.
Yes you are right in principle, but have you ever seen an Epic army that didn't feature any infantry at all? I think I have seen one game, in about 30 years, and that was some people messing about with an all-titans Vs Gargants game at a store event after Titan Legions was released.
One of the main components of Epic is combined arms, the scale lets you have everything that you can imagine from the HH book battles on the tabletop at once, so I think releasing the game without easily obtainable infantry is unlikely to happen.
It's not a problem to have core units of vehicles if the rules incite you to still have infantry. Reason why the latter was still present in old Epic lists that didn't have an infantry obligation in them is simply because there are terrains only infantry can enter. Put an objective in it, and suddenly the need of infantry becomes crucial. So people included infantry "just in case".
Some titan lists did only have titans / armored vehicles in them. They obviously had the firepower for them, but lack of infantry was an intended weak point. If the players could fit some in their lists, they would have done so because old versions of Epic weren't just about destroying the opponent's army. This version of LI looks very much the same, given the previews and the battle report in the White Dwarf. It's also not a hazard if most of LI terrain is buildings and ruins, terrains typically made for infantry fights.
Just another proof that list building out of scenarios is useless, and how clever rule design give the player choice instead of removing it for "artificial balance".
SU-152 wrote: About the boxed infantry, core box, and entry point... and for all of those that after 143 pages still have no idea about the game, about 30K, about 40k or about Heresy: you don't need infantry to play, armoured companies are CORE.
Bit concerned about that, I don't think you're wrong I just really hope for combined arms as like a core army building principle. Giant units of tanks and not much more sounds a bit boring.
SU-152 wrote: About the boxed infantry, core box, and entry point... and for all of those that after 143 pages still have no idea about the game, about 30K, about 40k or about Heresy: you don't need infantry to play, armoured companies are CORE.
Bit concerned about that, I don't think you're wrong I just really hope for combined arms as like a core army building principle. Giant units of tanks and not much more sounds a bit boring.
Pretty sure that armor units are not Core selections, but that there are formations that just have armor in them. I believe LI classifies Core as basic infantry from what we have seen. I can’t recall if there is anything specific about which units can claim objectives, but I think infantry get a bonus. (And can hide in buildings.)
Hmm, maybe they will give more detailed rule data for Thursday. We can hope.
Armour formations are core. Have been core in all other editions of Epic (30k or 40k), and I have seen the leaks, and they are core. No infantry is needed to play the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pacific wrote: Agree with AllSeeingSkink there that just putting it back in a box for a while might have been more sensible. But perhaps they didn't know how long the delay would be initially, and the rule reprints and repackaging are taking onger than expected?
SU-152 wrote: About the boxed infantry, core box, and entry point... and for all of those that after 143 pages still have no idea about the game, about 30K, about 40k or about Heresy: you don't need infantry to play, armoured companies are CORE.
Yes you are right in principle, but have you ever seen an Epic army that didn't feature any infantry at all? I think I have seen one game, in about 30 years, and that was some people messing about with an all-titans Vs Gargants game at a store event after Titan Legions was released.
One of the main components of Epic is combined arms, the scale lets you have everything that you can imagine from the HH book battles on the tabletop at once, so I think releasing the game without easily obtainable infantry is unlikely to happen.
Lots and lots of games I've played and seen: I run Minervan Tank Legion in Epic Armageddon. Lots of player run Titan Legions, lots Speed Freaks, in Heresy one can run SM Armoured Companies, etc, etc
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Not an expert in marketing at all, but it seems to me that if you have a big project that gets delayed, the best thing is to just release a statement saying “we have had to delay due to logistical/quality assurance/whatever reason, at this stage we can’t say when the release will be, but stay tuned and we’ll let you know, join the mailing list to be notified”…. then go dark on the project until there’s a more solid release date that can restart the hype train closer to release.
It seems like keeping the hype train rolling while also not giving an indication of release date perhaps just draws the ire of potential customers. Hell, even though I’m not 100% sure I’ll buy into LI, there’s been a couple of other things I didn’t buy thinking “LI is just around the corner”, not that I massively care but it’s money I might have otherwise spent.
Funny. That's what gw did.
Nah, that's not what they did. From memory they said it's coming in August (or maybe that was a rumour? I don't remember, but I remember having the expectation from somewhere it was coming in August), again from memory I think they then let it simmer for a while until people were starting discuss the release window (much like we are now!) then when it was delayed they released another hype article, at the very end of which for those few who read through the whole article they said "While we had initially hoped to release Legions Imperialis in August, the release date will now be a little later in the year. Don’t worry – you’ll be commanding a tiny legion of troops to victory very soon."
Rewording that to be more consistent with what I suggested, what they COULD have said was maybe "While we had initially hoped to release Legions Imperialis in August, we've encountered problems with XYZ. Don't worry, the mail order trolls are on the job and doing their best, but unfortunately we can't give a release date yet, but stay tuned and we’ll let you know, join the mailing list to be notified . the release date will now be a little later in the year. Don’t worry – you’ll be commanding a tiny legion of troops to victory very soon.".
They then kept releasing hype articles while people are eagerly waiting that "little later in the year" announcement to come out (opposed to my suggestion of going dark on it until they had a better idea of the release window).
Then they had that other article with the "sooner than you think!" in late September. But of course everyone who was paying attention was thinking it'd only between a month and a few months later because they already said "a little later in the year". Wording is important, because it's what sets expectations even if they didn't say "we'll release it on October 20th!" people would have been thinking around about then because "a little later in the year" from August sounds like October-ish to November-ish.
You might say I'm being pedantic, and maybe I am, but the goal with customer relations is to NOT piss off a potential customer, so little details like how sentences are constructed are important.
But gw never says concrete date even without delays before sunday comes up. And hype train always starts before that sunday.
So for all products you think gw should start hyping only after sunday announcement? Note how for all products beside LI now there's been hype before sunday so guess all that should also be moved to post-sunday announcement?
They can start the hype train years before, that's fine, the problem we're talking about is the specific case of having an set an expectation, breaking that expectation, and then bumbling along with the hype train anyway while giving misleading queues as to when they might be able to buy it. Better just to be straight with people and say "we can't say when it'll release, but we'll let you know!" not "little later in the year", "very soon", "sooner than you think!".
It's hardly a new phenomenon, video game developers often have to deal with delays that push back release dates and then have to manage the hype monster they're trying to generate.
There's lots of ways to manage a hype train, ranging from announcing years in advance to announcing days in advance, no problems there.
But, at least we've all overanalysed it now, that's the most important thing
AllSeeingSkink wrote: when it was delayed they released another hype article, at the very end of which for those few who read through the whole article they said "While we had initially hoped to release Legions Imperialis in August, the release date will now be a little later in the year..."
There was an additional notice about the delay on the main WarCom page too. It was one of those little box pop-up things they normally use to announce FAQs.
However I agree communication could have been a lot better, with two points in particular:
There should have been a distinct and clearer article regarding the delay (or at least mention it again on that empty Sunday article in August when most people were expecting to see LI)
Don't use phrases like "sooner than you think!" if the release isn't coming literally the following week
SU-152 - are you talking about Armageddon right? If so those vehicle-only lists are more common or plausible in that system (although again, and this might vary by gaming group, it is not something I have seen in practice)
However this game is based off of Epic SM/2nd edition, it's much harder to not include infantry in that system, as I said to the point where I only saw it once. The battle report they showed had a lot of infantry and they are kind of central to the Epic gaming concept. So I can't contemplate them releasing this game without some sort of 'infantry company' box which is just a copy of the sprue from the main game?
I will be honest I have lost track now why we are even having this discussion
We are free falling like the marketing for hte game all waiting for the release date and going in circles.
Honestly considering the back end of this game it might be that they've had and moved several release dates for it. Which could explain why they didn't have a clear message because Marketing might well have been told "next week for sur....oh no wait" several times over now.
Overread wrote: We are free falling like the marketing for hte game all waiting for the release date and going in circles.
Honestly considering the back end of this game it might be that they've had and moved several release dates for it. Which could explain why they didn't have a clear message because Marketing might well have been told "next week for sur....oh no wait" several times over now.
We had rumours about November for a while now so i think that was always the plan but the specific week in November has been changing with time with the current one being the 25th for release on the 2nd December so could be the case
Overread wrote: We are free falling like the marketing for hte game all waiting for the release date and going in circles.
Honestly considering the back end of this game it might be that they've had and moved several release dates for it. Which could explain why they didn't have a clear message because Marketing might well have been told "next week for sur....oh no wait" several times over now.
I think it's better to just tell people you don't have a date right now, otherwise folks are trying to decipher something that's not there.
Though maybe they thought they had a date and said "sooner than you think!" then figured out that it wouldn't be that date, but to me it more feels like they knew the date is a while off (maybe they don't know it exactly) and instead of pausing the hype train and picking it up later, they're trying to keep people in the edge of their seats waiting for it.
Overread wrote: We are free falling like the marketing for hte game all waiting for the release date and going in circles.
Honestly considering the back end of this game it might be that they've had and moved several release dates for it. Which could explain why they didn't have a clear message because Marketing might well have been told "next week for sur....oh no wait" several times over now.
I think it's better to just tell people you don't have a date right now, otherwise folks are trying to decipher something that's not there.
Though maybe they thought they had a date and said "sooner than you think!" then figured out that it wouldn't be that date, but to me it more feels like they knew the date is a while off (maybe they don't know it exactly) and instead of pausing the hype train and picking it up later, they're trying to keep people in the edge of their seats waiting for it.
I can see justifications on both sides. I do agree I'd prefer fixed firm dates on the future, but GW is really resistant to that and whilst they'd started doing roadmaps and such just before/during the early part of the Pandemic; I get the feeling that since the Pandemic there's enough general Chaos that GW really doesn't want to do it because they'd be slip sliding all the time.
Which can be a reason a firm doesn't give dates - they simply don't know and things are slip sliding along and getting nudged about. So they don't want to put out a promise of a future date and then go and miss it. Even if its just by a week. Much easier ot just keep the hype going; keep a few cryptic messages out and keep people on the edge of their seat. That way if it slips by a week you just keep it going; and if it lands a week earlier than planned BOOM it fits
If the developers don't manage to deliver on the hype, they could end up alienating customers and damaging the reputation of the game. There are many games here http://www.emedia.am/en/
Pacific wrote: SU-152 - are you talking about Armageddon right? If so those vehicle-only lists are more common or plausible in that system (although again, and this might vary by gaming group, it is not something I have seen in practice)
However this game is based off of Epic SM/2nd edition, it's much harder to not include infantry in that system, as I said to the point where I only saw it once. The battle report they showed had a lot of infantry and they are kind of central to the Epic gaming concept. So I can't contemplate them releasing this game without some sort of 'infantry company' box which is just a copy of the sprue from the main game?
I will be honest I have lost track now why we are even having this discussion
I am talking about Epic Armageddon, Epic 40k, Epic Heresy, SM1 &2, and NetEpic Gold. All have armoured armies, pretty common.
I don't know if GW is going to release infantry out of the "core" box. I am just saying it is not compulsory to play, that's all. In fact, my army for LI will be a Solar Auxilia Armoured Batallion
Overread wrote: We are free falling like the marketing for hte game all waiting for the release date and going in circles.
Honestly considering the back end of this game it might be that they've had and moved several release dates for it. Which could explain why they didn't have a clear message because Marketing might well have been told "next week for sur....oh no wait" several times over now.
I think it's better to just tell people you don't have a date right now, otherwise folks are trying to decipher something that's not there.
Though maybe they thought they had a date and said "sooner than you think!" then figured out that it wouldn't be that date, but to me it more feels like they knew the date is a while off (maybe they don't know it exactly) and instead of pausing the hype train and picking it up later, they're trying to keep people in the edge of their seats waiting for it.
I can see justifications on both sides. I do agree I'd prefer fixed firm dates on the future, but GW is really resistant to that and whilst they'd started doing roadmaps and such just before/during the early part of the Pandemic; I get the feeling that since the Pandemic there's enough general Chaos that GW really doesn't want to do it because they'd be slip sliding all the time.
Which can be a reason a firm doesn't give dates - they simply don't know and things are slip sliding along and getting nudged about. So they don't want to put out a promise of a future date and then go and miss it. Even if its just by a week. Much easier ot just keep the hype going; keep a few cryptic messages out and keep people on the edge of their seat. That way if it slips by a week you just keep it going; and if it lands a week earlier than planned BOOM it fits
I don't think they needed firm dates, I think they either give a date, or they don't, avoid the half dates and the implied dates and just flat out tell people "we have no date as we need to resolve the issues and don't want to rush it out if those issues take a while to solve". If it's too unsure, then don't. And I think if they do give a date and have to delay, that's not inherently a problem, they just can become a problem if poorly managed.
The problem with keeping people on the edge of their seat, they can irreparably lose interest or just drive home the annoyance of the delay, that's why I think it's better to go dark after announcing a delay, let people not think about it for a few months, then ramp up fresh again.
As much as it pains me to say it, they DON'T want people thinking too much about a product. If people think too much about it, they're more likely to think "hmm, actually, I don't need this". I reckon that's what happened with Cursed City, it sold out, people wanted it, but by the time it rolled back around people who originally wanted it decided they don't actually want it any more and the restock seems like it hasn't moved as many copies as there were pining for it after the original sell out.
I don't think "just go dark" is a good plan for marketing. You go dark and suddenly the next thing is people would assume its cancelled outright and move on. You keep it hyped; you keep doing articles to confirm that it is most certainly going to be coming out. The longer the delay the more you need to keep communicating that the thing is coming.
Going dark is what Kickstarters do when they either run out of cash or get a huge delay and not many updates. It always results in people getting annoyed, angry and wanting to file refunds. Those KS that keep up steady and constant communication and keep talking about the product are the ones that often ride it out far better.
The ones that go dark - those are the ones that get a community turn toxic on them.
As for if they talk about it too much people move on - eh those were customers who were going to move on because of the delay no matter what. They might not even have bought in on launch day because it was too costly or such.
One thing they should have been much clearer about (in addition to dates or the lack thereof) is what belongs or not to an expansion book, and how they plan to articulate the release of said expansion with that of the main game.
CorwinB wrote: One thing they should have been much clearer about (in addition to dates or the lack thereof) is what belongs or not to an expansion book, and how they plan to articulate the release of said expansion with that of the main game.
That might be another thing they aren't sure about themselves. The Cursed City expansion were likely supposed to release together with the minis needed for them but since something went wrong the minis were released on their own. But after Cursed City was rereleased they also released the expansions just without the minis as they were already out at that point.
I could see the same happening here. Things that were originally meant for an expansion might be released close to launch now but the expansion book itself would still have to wait a while or not be released at all. After all the only reason we even know about an expansion book is the line in White Dwarf and with GWs QC I wouldn't be surprised if that simple slipped though and that book never happens now, or at least the models don't have to wait for it. Otherwise I would have expected them to show us the book in a Thursday article after the White Dwarf was released instead of another new model that won't be released for a while.
And for the rules they could still just release a pdf if they choose to release the models first.
Pacific wrote: SU-152 - are you talking about Armageddon right? If so those vehicle-only lists are more common or plausible in that system (although again, and this might vary by gaming group, it is not something I have seen in practice)
However this game is based off of Epic SM/2nd edition, it's much harder to not include infantry in that system, as I said to the point where I only saw it once. The battle report they showed had a lot of infantry and they are kind of central to the Epic gaming concept. So I can't contemplate them releasing this game without some sort of 'infantry company' box which is just a copy of the sprue from the main game?
I will be honest I have lost track now why we are even having this discussion
I am talking about Epic Armageddon, Epic 40k, Epic Heresy, SM1 &2, and NetEpic Gold. All have armoured armies, pretty common.
I don't know if GW is going to release infantry out of the "core" box. I am just saying it is not compulsory to play, that's all. In fact, my army for LI will be a Solar Auxilia Armoured Batallion
I am going to be watching your project logs closely,.and you are now going to have to have a strict 'no infantry' policy, just to prove a point .
CorwinB wrote: ....and how they plan to articulate the release of said expansion with that of the main game.
I'm going to take a guess and say "badly".
My bet is that we're going to get a glut of things for epic a lot faster than we would have otherwise, so that they can clear out that space, and then SUDDENLY, it'll dry up. And for 6+ months we'll get the piddliest of mentions of LI stuff, only for then, another year down the line, things to get to a normal state.
But as soon as that rush ends, it'll be exactly like how it is with 30k, where people will declare 'dead game' 'no support' and rant about how they would have done it better without knowing 90% of the story.
So is that it for Heresy Thursday, the White Scar?
Last weeks HT ended with - Come back next week for another edition of Heresy Thursday, as we approach the release of Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis and uncover more lost technology from the Age of Darkness.
The epic-scale miniatures for Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis are a sight to behold, and hobbyists throughout the Warhammer Community office have been eager to paint a few of their own ahead of their release (which is coming very soon!)
With a massive range of miniatures to choose from – from artillery and speeders to super-heavy tanks and terrain – it’ll pay to have some in mind before pre-orders start… very, very soon.
How much better do they look in camo, rather than with that trim?
EDIT: Hold on guys, we've got a 'very soon' there! Not just 'soon' !
Previous Epic versions (and especially 2nd edition) definitely had legion (or chapter-specific) units - Dark Angel Ravenwing & Deathwing, Space Wolf Great Companies and specialist units etc. I would be very surprised if units don't get added, especially as many won't necessarily even need a new miniature sculpt at this scale - and it would be an easy thing to do for Legion expansion books etc
Geifer wrote: Yeah, I thought the Guard tanks would look just fine with a normal paintjob.
On another note, I didn't pay enough attention to notice before, but seeing all those Russes without sponsons, are sponsons not a part of the kit?
Seems not, the russ datasheet didn't have any rules for sponsons. Only the turret and hull mounted weapon.
Pacific wrote: EDIT: Hold on guys, we've got a 'very soon' there! Not just 'soon' !
By the end of reading the article it was up to "very, very soon", so hopefully by the time I'm done with all of these emails at work we'll be up to "very, very, very, very soon"!
Pacific wrote: EDIT: Hold on guys, we've got a 'very soon' there! Not just 'soon' !
Well now they're doing community paintjobs, I imagine it's coming out pretty soon.... however I'm not sure if that's sooner than "sooner than you think".
Geifer wrote: Thanks, guys. One less reason to bother with this game. fething Horus Heresy...
Come over to the dark side of 3D printing and community supported rules, where the options are huge and if the option doesn't exist you can create it yourself.
Geifer wrote: Thanks, guys. One less reason to bother with this game. fething Horus Heresy...
what am I missing? What is one less reason to bother with it?
I assume he's either a real big fan of sponsons or he was planning to build a 40k style guard army with the solar auxilia kits and now can't and he's ticked off by it.
Pacific wrote: EDIT: Hold on guys, we've got a 'very soon' there! Not just 'soon' !
Previous Epic versions (and especially 2nd edition) definitely had legion (or chapter-specific) units - Dark Angel Ravenwing & Deathwing, Space Wolf Great Companies and specialist units etc. I would be very surprised if units don't get added, especially as many won't necessarily even need a new miniature sculpt at this scale - and it would be an easy thing to do for Legion expansion books etc
Sorta hoping they don't add legion specific stuff. The trait system is already is a bit of a mixed bag, just in terms of balancing it so every legion feels they have an appropriate ability. They've already sorta messed that up comparing say ec to other legions previewed. I'd much rather the compromise be more aesthetic than rules, like more of a counts as route, like if someone used phoenix terminator models as normal terminator models, sounds fine. Or if someone wanted to use a single primarch model on a 25mm base as a command squad. I'm basically concerned that some traits will be auto takes, like it will be a bit convenient if 3 months from now every player fielding bikes/jetbikes/speeders ect are conveniently white scars.
Seeing as a lot of what was previewed apparently is in the first expansion book, concerned the plan is to string out a bunch more books with a legion specific unit or two as the selling point every time.
Geifer wrote: Thanks, guys. One less reason to bother with this game. fething Horus Heresy...
what am I missing? What is one less reason to bother with it?
I despise the look of a sponsonless Russ. It doesn't take much to get me to buy Russes and Baneblades, as my 40k collection can attest to. I don't care about the rules, or the game, really. What I want out of the game is for my models to look good. I'm not going to get that in this case. Which decreases my options for a cool army. Which means there's less reason to bother at all.
Geifer wrote: Thanks, guys. One less reason to bother with this game. fething Horus Heresy...
Come over to the dark side of 3D printing and community supported rules, where the options are huge and if the option doesn't exist you can create it yourself.
I don't have the space for a 3D printer. I don't even have to consider if I want to bother with all the work that goes into it. It's just not an option for me.
I do approve of the idea of making your own Epic with blackjack and hookers, though.
Not that it would actually lead to Russes with sponsons. Why would I waste my time printing Leman Russes when I could use that time to print Monoliths? This whole Horus Heresy setting is a stupid idea.
Geifer wrote: Thanks, guys. One less reason to bother with this game. fething Horus Heresy...
what am I missing? What is one less reason to bother with it?
I despise the look of a sponsonless Russ. It doesn't take much to get me to buy Russes and Baneblades, as my 40k collection can attest to. I don't care about the rules, or the game, really. What I want out of the game is for my models to look good. I'm not going to get that in this case. Which decreases my options for a cool army. Which means there's less reason to bother at all.
Geifer wrote: Thanks, guys. One less reason to bother with this game. fething Horus Heresy...
Come over to the dark side of 3D printing and community supported rules, where the options are huge and if the option doesn't exist you can create it yourself.
I don't have the space for a 3D printer. I don't even have to consider if I want to bother with all the work that goes into it. It's just not an option for me.
I do approve of the idea of making your own Epic with blackjack and hookers, though.
Not that it would actually lead to Russes with sponsons. Why would I waste my time printing Leman Russes when I could use that time to print Monoliths? This whole Horus Heresy setting is a stupid idea.
surely if you were interested in the game but dont like the Russes for whatever reason, you would just create an army that didnt have Russes in it? And you can have printed Sponsons delivered to your door if you really wanted them.
The epic-scale miniatures for Warhammer: The Horus Heresy – Legions Imperialis are a sight to behold, and hobbyists throughout the Warhammer Community office have been eager to paint a few of their own ahead of their release (which is coming very soon!)
With a massive range of miniatures to choose from – from artillery and speeders to super-heavy tanks and terrain – it’ll pay to have some in mind before pre-orders start… very, very soon.
How much better do they look in camo, rather than with that trim?
The models look fantastic. I've always preferred seeing the paint jobs of 'regular' hobbyists, the studio paint jobs for the box art never do anything for me at all.
I guess it won't be long now.
Though if these are the models painted by the studio community team, that means it won't be long before a whole bunch of 'influencers'....sorry... 'content creators' start flooding groups with their Epic scale videos/posts, telling everyone how much they have always loved the scale/game and getting their 15 mins of hype in of the game (before next big product).
I'm going to discuss the release the people I game with, see if we are going to spend the money we had saved for old world on this or wait for old world. None of us really intend to play the new rules for either game, and other than a few unique bits n bobs from the old world most of the minis can be got else where. At least with this, the 40k models are pretty unique in design.
I'm still mostly tempted by getting a lot of those tiles and making the full city build we've wanted to do for a long time.
Also loving the SA pattern Russ' but the Kratos has gone from a meh to a strong dislike for me. Really hope the Astartes SH do not take too long to appear.
Definitely agree the more standard paint job looks better - isn't that pretty similar to the old 40k paint scheme for Leman Russ tanks? Sure I have seen a box in that style
Pacific wrote: Definitely agree the more standard paint job looks better - isn't that pretty similar to the old 40k paint scheme for Leman Russ tanks? Sure I have seen a box in that style
Hang around Dakka enough post launch, and I’m sure likes of Pacific and I will provide all the Percussion of Simians about Epic you’ll need
Yes I am sure the same five of us or so will be here long after everyone else has lost interest, and buying all those Leman Russ 2nd hand
Not sure if im a newcomer...dont post much on Dakka but I was playing since Epic came out back in (I cant even remember)...1992 wast it? My favorite version was 'Space Marine'. Still got 3 armies.
Pacific wrote: Definitely agree the more standard paint job looks better - isn't that pretty similar to the old 40k paint scheme for Leman Russ tanks? Sure I have seen a box in that style
Honestly I'm getting feelings of way back when I first started wargames with Titan Legions seeing those little tanks!
And looking way way cooler than they did back then too!
This time -- THIS TIME - I hope it lasts better. At least GW these days doesn't consign Specialist games to mail order only from an expensive subdivision of the company; and I hope the game doesn't get killed off within 6 months of going live.
My one annoyance is the lack of Xenos and the 30K timeline which means any chance of Xenos is hobbled by GW having to re-tool and re-do all (most) of the core units to re-release the game.
I feel like this is the game that would possibly be best suited to expanding HH to include Great Crusade era and some of the other xenos and weird post-human empires found in that part of galactic history.
chaos0xomega wrote: I feel like this is the game that would possibly be best suited to expanding HH to include Great Crusade era and some of the other xenos and weird post-human empires found in that part of galactic history.
See that would be really cool to see, but considering GW didn't even get to adding any Chaos models in AT I'm cautious about how far they'll take it. There's a lot they can milk with just HH
Yeah, it might take a long time for them to get there, but also the pace of releases for LI seems kinda fast - we already have a good amount of the flyer units available, and probably about half of the titans slated for the game (Im figuring they release more new titans going forward). In terms of the new LI stuff, they've basically previewed a significant portion of the existing Astartes and Solar Auxilia armories, theres maybe 2-3 more waves worth of stuff they can release before they need to start inventing things or expanding out into other factions? Unless they pull an Aeronautica and sunset the game after 4 or 5 years I think they may run out of content unless they take things in some interesting directions.
They already have flyers for Orks and Aeldari which are appropriate GC era opponents and a nice springboard for that direction before you get into Megarachnids or Interrex or whatever.
Tried drawing up a quick list of stuff not announced for LI that are out already for 30k proper, not including snowflake infantry or characters. Many mistakes?
Overread wrote: Honestly I'm getting feelings of way back when I first started wargames with Titan Legions seeing those little tanks!
And looking way way cooler than they did back then too!
This time -- THIS TIME - I hope it lasts better. At least GW these days doesn't consign Specialist games to mail order only from an expensive subdivision of the company; and I hope the game doesn't get killed off within 6 months of going live.
My one annoyance is the lack of Xenos and the 30K timeline which means any chance of Xenos is hobbled by GW having to re-tool and re-do all (most) of the core units to re-release the game.
In terms of lasting long, remember Epic was a main store game from probably the early 90s through to the late 90s with third edition - I know it did then get consigned to mail order, but that is not a bad run!
ingtaer wrote: Tried drawing up a quick list of stuff not announced for LI that are out already for 30k proper, not including snowflake infantry or characters.
From that list the Venator, Vindicator, Scorpius, Cerberus/Typhon have been done in plastic, so they seem highly likely to show up in the coming months. I reckon they'll squeeze in the Glaive/Falchion soon so that marines have a super-heavy option.
The Sokar is also new enough to be CAD-based, and given how popular the Thunderhawk was that seems like a no-brainer probably later on.
My one annoyance is the lack of Xenos and the 30K timeline which means any chance of Xenos is hobbled by GW having to re-tool and re-do all (most) of the core units to re-release the game.
This is my main worry, too.
Nowadays, the group of 25+ gaming buddies hanging out on Sundays at the LGS doesn't exist, but there are still 4 of us who war-game at least once a month; and the lack of Xenos will directly affect what we purchase for LI. As it stands, I can't see any of us buying anything other than the rulebook while we wait for Chaos, Eldar, etc.
As soon as GW released Titanicus, the plan was probably already set for Epic to happen. Aeronautica sealed the deal. Despite Aeronautica having a bumpy launch, Epic still found room in the borked release schedule to happen.
The big question isn't whether or not GW will support it, it's HOW they will support it. Games like Necromunda and Blood Bowl have been supported for a long time, getting a slow drip-feed of releases over a much longer period of time, which is good! Better to get a little bit of something and push the story along than abandon it completely.
It all comes down to how well Epic and its initial expansions do, especially with how screwed the hype cycle and delays have been. If it still does well, I'm sure GW will continue to support it. Worst case scenario, we'll get a lot of models in plastic and resin, and then the rest will be handled by 3d modelers
My biggest question to myself is how much money and I willing to invest in this so that when the release drops I can quickly decide if I’ll buy into it. A lot of recent releases I spend sufficient time pondering the investment that it sells out before making a decision.
Even if I decide to not go with LI, which is how I’m leaning now, I’ll still probably grab some tanks and infantry to check scale against what I’m 3D printing for my homebrew Epic games.
If it's just a question of grabbing a few tanks / infantry for the pleasure of building / painting, I think you are fine waiting even months after the initial release date. AI planes were available to buy for a couple of years before they stopped production of everything not linked to LI only recently (and even so, it's still possible to find a few boxes here and there left in some stores nowadays). LI will at least last the same.
FOMO only applies to limited bundle box releases or when production officially stops.
Honestly, even if the game doesn't interest you, I can totally see people taking a couple of boxes of some models they really like just for the pleasure of building and painting it. Taken separately without the "need" of building a whole army of hundred of vehicles / infantry bases, the purchase alone is worth it for collection...and it's easy to put on your shelves or as decoration on your furniture too.
drbored wrote: As soon as GW released Titanicus, the plan was probably already set for Epic to happen. Aeronautica sealed the deal. Despite Aeronautica having a bumpy launch, Epic still found room in the borked release schedule to happen.
The big question isn't whether or not GW will support it, it's HOW they will support it. Games like Necromunda and Blood Bowl have been supported for a long time, getting a slow drip-feed of releases over a much longer period of time, which is good! Better to get a little bit of something and push the story along than abandon it completely.
It all comes down to how well Epic and its initial expansions do, especially with how screwed the hype cycle and delays have been. If it still does well, I'm sure GW will continue to support it. Worst case scenario, we'll get a lot of models in plastic and resin, and then the rest will be handled by 3d modelers
I agree and think this will be the case. What will make it a success or not? I think Epic, as a concept, has legs - we know that from the large successes (commercially) of the game at least over the long 2nd edition and Titan Legions period. And that could be why the new game is ostensibly based on the 2nd edition game.
I think the deciders for me will be two things: Firstly, price. This game *has* to be a cheaper way, than AoD, to have a mass of infantry and tanks on the tabletop - that was one of the strengths of Epic originally and why the game became ubiquitous for a certain generation of us getting into the hobby (I think it's also partly why Necromunda and BB continue to thrive as they have a lower buy in cost than most GW games). Secondly, the quality of the rules. Again it *has* to be fun to play and easy to pick-up, easy for one hobbyist to show another how to play. Again this was the strength of old Epic, I have shown people how to play in 15 minutes and we're having a laugh when a belly-gun shot blows a titan's leg off 10 minutes later. Blood Bowl too, it's a wonderfully designed ruleset - I will say Necromunda too, at its core and without burying the player in expansion books. If the new Epic is a turgid, drudging experience then people won't want to play it, it's as simple as that I think.
Hopefully we will find out both things, very, very soon!
Remind me, Pacific, what version of Epic do you play? Is it one of the community sets? I've been mostly getting back into Epic 40k (1997 version), but might try something else.
Sarouan wrote: If it's just a question of grabbing a few tanks / infantry for the pleasure of building / painting, I think you are fine waiting even months after the initial release date. AI planes were available to buy for a couple of years before they stopped production of everything not linked to LI only recently (and even so, it's still possible to find a few boxes here and there left in some stores nowadays). LI will at least last the same.
True, except I was mid-army when LI was announced and stopped building the army with the though to check if I should tweak the scale to match LI. So I would like to get back to it over the Chrissie break.
FOMO only applies to limited bundle box releases or when production officially stops.
My memory is terrible, have they told us whether the launch box will be permanent or a one off?
Honestly, even if the game doesn't interest you, I can totally see people taking a couple of boxes of some models they really like just for the pleasure of building and painting it. Taken separately without the "need" of building a whole army of hundred of vehicles / infantry bases, the purchase alone is worth it for collection...and it's easy to put on your shelves or as decoration on your furniture too.
Yeah, at the very least I'll get a few to go along with my AI collection. Might be cool to have some ground vehicles to use as bombing targets or anti-air.
Hopefully we can get a nice selection of "samples" of models for a couple of hundred, though I'm expecting a full LI army to be on par price-wise to 40k and Warhammer.
Still a bit annoyed the starter set comes with Warhounds, I really don't need any more of them but the starter set will be more expensive because of them.
Firstly, price. This game *has* to be a cheaper way, than AoD, to have a mass of infantry and tanks on the tabletop - that was one of the strengths of Epic originally and why the game became ubiquitous for a certain generation of us getting into the hobby (I think it's also partly why Necromunda and BB continue to thrive as they have a lower buy in cost than most GW games).
Cheaper than AoD isn't difficult, you know. It's not so much a question of "price" than a question of "perspective".
If a player of AoD wants to "translate his army in Epic scale", there's no doubts that the equivalent of his army in AoD to 10mm scale in terms of "same numbers of miniatures" will be cheaper. It's not a question of "playable army" or not, which is often a misconception here when people argue of the price of the armies in the White Dwarf battle report.
It really depends on how it's presented by GW and by people making demos of the game. When you build a GW army, it's rarely buying everything to the most played format in one go unless you're a big tournament player with no problem with money. It's usually about building gradually the collection little by little, depending on your budget. Thus the perception of "price" varies greatly depending of the way you start your collection...and how you want to play the game, if at all.
Secondly, the quality of the rules. Again it *has* to be fun to play and easy to pick-up, easy for one hobbyist to show another how to play. Again this was the strength of old Epic, I have shown people how to play in 15 minutes and we're having a laugh when a belly-gun shot blows a titan's leg off 10 minutes later.
Heh. Quality of the rules doesn't matter, in reality. People can learn the game with videos or from their friends teaching them, they don't necessarily have to read the rules. Just the parts they care about at the moment, the rest is mostly talking with your game partner. You can have fun with any game, even the worst ones, just by having a blast with your friend who vulgarize / explain very well or is used to teach other people as a matter of fact.
The strength of old Epic was never about "quality of their rules", either. Especially when you talk about old versions that were...let's say written "differently" than nowaday's cannon for competitive play. I'm not even talking about fan community versions, that vary vastly depending on the commitment of their members with their own language. But since most people learn from their friends / videos in that case, it's not that important again.
You just see it that way because you think old Epic is best Epic, that's all.
Albertorius wrote: The minis themselves should sell regardless, just the same as the AT/AI ones, I think.
Pretty much.
People often obsess about "the game, the game, the game", but it's always good to remember GW sales don't involve just people playing the game. And of course, people really obsessing about the competitive aspect of the game are even more a minority on that matter. Most players simply don't care about if a rule is tightly written or how "good" it is in comparison to old versions : they just play as it is / they're told to.
Well, at least it's permanent until they decide to change it. So far, I admit I only saw vague statements from GW on that matter. We sure know it is a Launch Box.
Sarouan wrote: Heh. Quality of the rules doesn't matter, in reality. People can learn the game with videos or from their friends teaching them, they don't necessarily have to read the rules. Just the parts they care about at the moment, the rest is mostly talking with your game partner. You can have fun with any game, even the worst ones, just by having a blast with your friend who vulgarize / explain very well or is used to teach other people as a matter of fact.
I disagree, my experience back when I started gaming 15-20 years ago was, yeah, someone would half read the rules, then we'd bumble our way through game after game until we got the hang of it.
Now, everyone being older and more time-poor, there's been several games that have stalled because they took too long to learn, the book was too much of an impenetrable tomb, or the games themselves took too long to play. I've got a few rulebooks on my shelf that only went as far as "casual glance to find out I can't be arsed".
Meanwhile, the games that can be played almost entirely using the quick reference sheets, those are the ones that get played, they draw people in more, and ultimately are what we end up buying models for.
As much as I liked Warhammer Fantasy, if it came out tomorrow being as complicated as it was back when I started, it wouldn't get picked up by us.
The strength of old Epic was never about "quality of their rules", either. Especially when you talk about old versions that were...let's say written "differently" than nowaday's cannon for competitive play. I'm not even talking about fan community versions, that vary vastly depending on the commitment of their members with their own language. But since most people learn from their friends / videos in that case, it's not that important again.
You just see it that way because you think old Epic is best Epic, that's all.
Epic 40k was a very easy game to pick up. I didn't touch it for around 20 years and picked up the rulebook again and within a couple of hours had read the entire rulebook.
There were definitely structural flaws in the game though, things where a rule could be read several different ways or flat out didn't cover scenarios that commonly came up. I think the rules writers knew what was in their head in terms of how the game should play, but weren't that great at writing it down so others could pick it up without issues.
Albertorius wrote: The minis themselves should sell regardless, just the same as the AT/AI ones, I think.
Pretty much.
People often obsess about "the game, the game, the game", but it's always good to remember GW sales don't involve just people playing the game. And of course, people really obsessing about the competitive aspect of the game are even more a minority on that matter. Most players simply don't care about if a rule is tightly written or how "good" it is in comparison to old versions : they just play as it is / they're told to.
On the flip side, if AI had better rules, maybe people would still be buying models and it wouldn't have gotten canned.
AllSeeingSkink - I mostly play 2nd edition/Titan Legions/NetEpic, but also a bit of Armageddon too. I think both systems have their flavours and advantages/disadvantages. I'd love to give Epic 40k a go one day, as the people that play it do tend to swear by it!
"Quality of the Rules doesn't matter" ? I have never read a comment on Dakka that I disagree with more And what an insult to the games designers that spend a good portion of their lives designing games and trying to mould them into something people enjoy. I will say if you think this, you haven't played enough different games in order to recognise when something has been well designed, or it has not.
On the flip side, if AI had better rules, maybe people would still be buying models and it wouldn't have gotten canned.
Fun fact : last version of AI rules were actually praised as great to pick up because of their simplicity, just like Epic 40k in its time. It wasn't a question of "quality" either.
Reason of why it wasn't that big of a sale is :
1) it was never translated in other languages, so sales for the game itself weren't that great in countries where english isn't mainly used
2) it was really poorly marketed by GW, including in stores
3) it was about planes in 40k. It's like making a naval battle game in Warhammer Battle's universe : it's cute and all, but it's already a niche in the niche. Yes, it's a free jab at poor old Man O' War (that was a great game too !).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pacific wrote: I will say if you think this, you haven't played enough different games in order to recognise when something has been well designed, or it has not.
Let's see...Warhammer Battle (all versions), Warmachine / Horde (before MK3), Warhammer 40k (from 2nd to 9th), Necromunda (all versions), Blood Bowl (all versions), Mordheim, Epic (all versions except NetEpic), Battlefleet Gothic, Warmaster (2nd edition), Lord of the Ring, War of the Ring, Frostgrave, Saga, Rangers of Shadow Deep, Alkemy, Kings of War (since 2nd, the best one), Confrontation (all versions), Confrontation Rag'Narok (including the sadly discontinued prepainted version), AT-43 (damn you Rackham !! It was such a good game !!!), Anima Tactics (such a good game as well, I'm still missing it...)...And I think I forgot a lot of others in my long life of playing miniature games. Ah yes, there was Mighty Empires (yes it was a game in its own !!), Aeronautica Imperialis and poor old Man O'War. My bad.
Yes I totally didn't play enough of them to understand that, in the end, quality of rules doesn't matter for a game to be popular or being left in the dust to die a dog's death. Especially because defining "quality" in rules is completely a subjective matter that varies amongst players depending on their own experiences with games so far.
Fun fact : last version of AI rules were actually praised as great to pick up because of their simplicity, just like Epic 40k in its time. It wasn't a question of "quality" either.
Praised by whom? I've seen like one or two people on Dakka say they enjoyed it and a lot of people saying they were interested until they saw it was a dumbed down version of the original / X-wing.
I'll agree Man o War was legitimately great, even by modern standards. I can say this because I first read it like 3 years ago
Fun fact : last version of AI rules were actually praised as great to pick up because of their simplicity, just like Epic 40k in its time. It wasn't a question of "quality" either.
Praised by whom? I've seen like one or two people on Dakka say they enjoyed it and a lot of people saying they were interested until they saw it was a dumbed down version of the original / X-wing.
I'll agree Man o War was legitimately great, even by modern standards. I can say this because I first read it like 3 years ago
Yeah I've never seen anyone say anything good about AI.
And agreed re: MOW. Recently came across the rules myself, very cleverly designed and mechanically interesting. I was blown away that GWs game designers could ever be so clever.
I feel the same way about Epic Armageddon. It's a genuinely brilliantly designed wargame, in terms of how the various aspects fit together and give the player tactical agency. As much as I don't tend to have as much fun playing it as I do 2nd edition/Titan Legions (especially if playing Orks)
It's a really sad thing LI rules won't be translated, because I already know that will be the main reason the game won't be as popular as it could have been like with older editions of Epic in my country or France. In my club, people already told me they're not interested because the rules won't be available in french.
Fun fact : last version of AI rules were actually praised as great to pick up because of their simplicity, just like Epic 40k in its time. It wasn't a question of "quality" either.
Praised by whom? I've seen like one or two people on Dakka say they enjoyed it and a lot of people saying they were interested until they saw it was a dumbed down version of the original / X-wing.
I'll agree Man o War was legitimately great, even by modern standards. I can say this because I first read it like 3 years ago
Yeah I've never seen anyone say anything good about AI.
You just didn't look at the places that matter, like boardgamegeek, from players who start completely from nothing and didn't have a bias from the start because of the older edition of AI. Like it or not, the core of the rules were simple to grasp and easy to learn, while still having a strategic level with the way orders were given hidden and alternating activations to execute them. Balance was maybe an issue for some factions here and there, but in general with the content of core boxes ? It worked well. It just wasn't supported in the best way by GW, who never really believed in its potential as usual.
Praised by whom? I've seen like one or two people on Dakka say they enjoyed it and a lot of people saying they were interested until they saw it was a dumbed down version of the original / X-wing.
While lacking in detail it was praised in my neck of the woods for being the most ideal 40K gateway game; simple and affordable. Goonhammer offered similar praise.
Sarouan wrote: It wasn't a question of "quality" either.
AI is probably one of the most controversial Specialist Games rulesets from GW I've heard of. Never played the game itself, but every single time I asked about it those people who did, the answers ranged from "uninspired and mediocre" to "the fact that it exists is complete humiliation of the players' intelligence by GW". While it is true that quality of the rules maybe is not the most decisive factor for a tabletop miniatures games, Aeronautica definitely was not free from problems. Same people were generally fine with bloody Necromunda, by the way, so it had to be truly something for them to hate it so much.
Goonhammer offered similar praise.
Truth be told, there are very few things Goonhammer is hesitant to "praise".
Pacific wrote: I'd love to give Epic 40k a go one day, as the people that play it do tend to swear by it!
I’ll bet. They probably say “what the bloody he’ll am I playing this for” 🤣🤣
Sure, that's exactly it. /s
It is honestly interesting, the fact that you can't seem to be able to avoid getting out of your way to bash on a game that you seem not to care for. Every. Single. Time.
Truth be told, there are very few things Goonhammer is hesitant to "praise".
I think that goes for any channel that is sent free products from GW to review( advertise ).
But using my own judgement, it was being enjoyed on the other tables and players only too happy to "go again", while my own little cabal was instead content using the aircraft rules for Horizon Wars.
Ah, more slamming of Aeronautica and no one has played the game. It gets good reviews generally across the board online. Plus I've actually played the game! My opinion matters more!
AI is a tight game that is overall pretty balanced and any balance issues were fixed pretty quickly. It is quick to pick up and play and there is plenty of scope to strategize through the movement phase.
Similar to Titanicus, the base rules are pretty simple and you can then add more complexity to the game through the missions and extra rules that came in the compendium.
The idea that Necromunda was fine and AI wasn't is just laughable.
I've played 100 games of X-wing and 1 of AI (after going all in with 2 starters on pre-release), I say with full confidence it was the least effort ruleset GW ever had on sale, I include Dreadfleet, Speed Freeks and other fire and forget garbage in this.
An interesting thing I noted was the Warwick Kinrade is down as a designer on the 2019 version wiki page (not just the original version). I had no idea he was still involved with GW, as after he stopped doing the Imperial Armour books he has been doing WW2 historical rulesets for Battlegroup for years now.
One of the leaked pages from the next white dwarf with the pictures of LI imperial fist apparently references the game being released, so that may mean nothing or that may be further indication that the rumour of pre order on the 18th is likely.
Crablezworth wrote: One of the leaked pages from the next white dwarf with the pictures of LI imperial fist apparently references the game being released, so that may mean nothing or that may be further indication that the rumour of pre order on the 18th is likely.
Sounds like an indication this issue of WD was written in July, and they didn't have time (or didn't remember) to amend it.
Chances are they didn't have time. Those WD will have been printed over a month or so ago. Then again it might also be that they wanted the article kept to keep the hype going and that little bit of text either wasn't edited it was too late to be edited. It certainly reads like an article intended to compliment a big release either the month before or earlier in the magazine.
Overread wrote: Chances are they didn't have time. Those WD will have been printed over a month or so ago. Then again it might also be that they wanted the article kept to keep the hype going and that little bit of text either wasn't edited it was too late to be edited. It certainly reads like an article intended to compliment a big release either the month before or earlier in the magazine.
Well for what it's worth I found a link, but ya could have just been something left as it was from months ago.
I went to my local GW store today (didn't think it would be open on Armistice rememberance day), and surprise, they got the LI box and were working on building the miniatures. The book wasn't there to see, but everything else was. I was only disappointed with the infantry models (some parts that should be thinner / have holes arecovered by a plastic block that looks pretty bad when you focus on it - but I guess it's a compromise to make it sturdier given the scale).
So release is imminent (they couldn't tell me the exact date, so I didn't insist).
Despite selling out fast the Christmas boxed sets have a 2 week window. This might mean we get nothing new next week; or nothing major new until the Christmas stuff is out of the warehouse.
Overread wrote: Despite selling out fast the Christmas boxed sets have a 2 week window. This might mean we get nothing new next week; or nothing major new until the Christmas stuff is out of the warehouse.
Past weeks been constant 2 week with another 2 week next week.
This 2 week is unexpeted(likely to ease delivery times) so usual nothing in middleweek doesn't apply.
It's been 2 week for everything for over month and new stuff every week.
Oh and rumour says tomorrow necron/admech announced. Next week li then.
Oh and rumour says tomorrow necron/admech announced. Next week li then.
Those aren't actually the newest rumours anymore. The newest say release on the 2nd, which with a two week preorder means preorder next Saturday. This would also make more sense in combination with AoS as they got a preorder for their current campaign on the Saturday after every fourth shortstory fort he last three books which would be the 25th with the current set of shortstories.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another image from a GW store so they all seem to be getting the box right now
Valrak just uploaded a short video with one interesting bit for LI in there, apparently the box will be £120.
Would be the same price as the new Cerastus knights so £120/155€/$200
Matrindur wrote: Valrak just uploaded a short video with one interesting bit for LI in there, apparently the box will be £120.
Would be the same price as the new Cerastus knights so £120/155€/$200
That 120 from GW...so maybe 100 or so from other retailers?
155€ isnt terribly pricy but I'd rather spend that cash only on Marines to be honest. Prices of individual releases are missing, so no way to gauge how good a value this box is presenting.
Wouldn't be surprised if it was something daft again, like it being cheaper to buy the box for the rules and only one of the armies (even without the Warhounds) than just buying rules and models separately. Yawn
tauist wrote: 155€ isnt terribly pricy but I'd rather spend that cash only on Marines to be honest. Prices of individual releases are missing, so no way to gauge how good a value this box is presenting.
Wouldn't be surprised if it was something daft again, like it being cheaper to buy the box for the rules and only one of the armies (even without the Warhounds) than just buying rules and models separately. Yawn
If they take a leaf from AI's book, they'll make it so it's a coin toss as to whether it's better to buy separately or buy the starter... I really hope they don't do that
But I'm going to guess the starter set will cost as much as the value of the infantry and tanks separately.... and the rules + warhounds are effectively thrown in for free.
stratigo wrote: That's not daft, that's basic marketing. Like it's just bog standard common in all consumer industries
That sounds swell and all, but I reckon LI will sell out during its first 24 hours of preorders going live, and I would have to lend money in order to secure my copy within that time (payday coming later in the month but before release date). So, I can look forward to paying more for less, unless I manage to get lucky with one of my LGS's on release day
Hopefully that is the price. I still expect it to be more.
€155 would be about €140 at my local. I suspect most individual sets to be about €40 each, we are looking at about 4 sets worth for the new models which is about €160. Warhounds and book is 'free'.
I think the queue system and their FOMO sales is going make getting the set the hardest and I don't expect this to be more than a launch set, with a 'starter set' coming later on (with half the models and twice the cost).
I'll probably order from my local stores & direct from GW. I can cancel the GW order if my other order is guaranteed, they never send them out on time anyway. If I really want to cut the cost down further, any rulebooks can be easily passed on to those that love new GW rules but want to 3d print everything.
I suspect the tiles will be €60 or more. That's really what is going to hurt me on this release. I have so much troublemaker terrain and desperately want tiles to fix it all too! (Well, the tiles AND the land raiders. I'm a sucker for cute tiny land raiders!)
I didn't bother buying any of their xmas bundles this year, knowing this was about to be released. This botched release must have really hurt them for sales this year, as well as people holding off for the old world.
I'll be glad when this set is finally out, simply so I can stop holding off from buying other 6mm stuff just in case I wanted to spend even more on this.
I'm looking forward to painting the minis up and can't wait to do some tiny conversions on the marines. Still have no interest in the game itself, but happy to see some really nice plastic tanks for this scale!
kodos wrote: why?
almost all of those boxes are meant to bought at least 2 times and shared
this is why you get 2 armies in there
if you just buy it once, you get 2 times half an army
Swapsies. Find someone who wants the half you don’t want. Job’s a good’un.
I want both armies. I'm going to end up with so many spare warhounds, I might as well commit to making a whole 6'x4' warhound factory table for my inq6 games
We tend to see rumour prices being in excess of the true RRP. I seem to recall Age of Darkness rumoured to be £225, significantly higher than the £185 it turned out to be.
Do not take this as an argument that “less than rumoured, therefore cheap”. Just in case.
We tend to see rumour prices being in excess of the true RRP. I seem to recall Age of Darkness rumoured to be £225, significantly higher than the £185 it turned out to be.
Do not take this as an argument that “less than rumoured, therefore cheap”. Just in case.
Too late, I'm holding you personally responsible. If its even a penny more, you'll be hearing from my tiny (6mm) solicitor!
tauist wrote: 155€ isnt terribly pricy but I'd rather spend that cash only on Marines to be honest. Prices of individual releases are missing, so no way to gauge how good a value this box is presenting.
Wouldn't be surprised if it was something daft again, like it being cheaper to buy the box for the rules and only one of the armies (even without the Warhounds) than just buying rules and models separately. Yawn
Assuming it's equivalent to two £30 boxes per faction, then that £120 price means the warhounds, rulebook, etc are 'free'. That's very a similar discount to the AT starter box, which is why I've been saying for months that this box would land in the £110-125 range. I just hope the starter is a permanent product like it was for HH.
RexHavoc wrote: I didn't bother buying any of their xmas bundles this year, knowing this was about to be released. This botched release must have really hurt them for sales this year, as well as people holding off for the old world.
Considering how quickly many of this years releases sold out I highly doubt they're in any way hurting for sales. The xmas boxes that didn't sell due to LI instead sold to someone else 0.02 seconds later
We tend to see rumour prices being in excess of the true RRP. I seem to recall Age of Darkness rumoured to be £225, significantly higher than the £185 it turned out to be.
Do not take this as an argument that “less than rumoured, therefore cheap”. Just in case.
Too late, I'm holding you personally responsible. If its even a penny more, you'll be hearing from my tiny (6mm) solicitor!
And I’ll ignore him. I give opinions professionally as a career, and as such I’m genuinely immune to civil prosecution for that
xttz wrote: Looks like the core box contents have changed, that pic has four Kratos which weren't included in the July reveal
You're right. Probably because they had to increase the price to cover the additional labor and needed to add some value to the box to justify it. The cool thing is that those are "in addition to" instead of "in place of" from the looks of it.
kodos wrote: why?
almost all of those boxes are meant to bought at least 2 times and shared
this is why you get 2 armies in there
if you just buy it once, you get 2 times half an army
If you buy 2, share 1 side of models guess there's no issue with 2nd rulebook eh? So then 2nd rulebook isn't limiting value of box
if you buy and share, both will end with 1 rulebook and 1 army
but I guess people forgot what "sharing" means and you rather buy 2 yourself, sell of the models and don't know what to do with the 2nd rulebook because you don't play anyway and therefore don't have an opponent who would like to have one too
kodos wrote: why?
almost all of those boxes are meant to bought at least 2 times and shared
this is why you get 2 armies in there
if you just buy it once, you get 2 times half an army
If you buy 2, share 1 side of models guess there's no issue with 2nd rulebook eh? So then 2nd rulebook isn't limiting value of box
if you buy and share, both will end with 1 rulebook and 1 army
but I guess people forgot what "sharing" means and you rather buy 2 yourself, sell of the models and don't know what to do with the 2nd rulebook because you don't play anyway and therefore don't have an opponent who would like to have one too
Speak for yourself. I'm buying multiple copies because I want all the models in the box for myself and my armies. Not everyone is a single army kind of player who will want to "share" half the box with a friend, I'm certainly not. Thus, rulebooks, dice, templates, tokens, etc. are useless to me. There is no advantage in me splitting the box with a friend.
CorwinB wrote: Tell me they are not doing a limited BL book at the same time as LI's release ? Don't they ever learn ?
Urgh. They really want people to hate them, I'm sure of it. That website is going to be on fire that day.
I'll stick to my plan, join the GW store queue. Buy from local stores, then if I ever get let in the GW store order from there.
If my local store confirm they are getting enough stock, then I'll cancel the GW order.
The most annoying bit is that the GW queue system kicks you out after paying. So no splitting orders in hopes of not holding up one big order when they go out of stock of one item.
Glad to see the game is getting a lot of releases from the go. And thankfully a lot of them are AI or AT rebundles, so no need to rush to buy everything. Would have like to have seen the land raiders as part of the wave. But honestly, this is probably better as that means I can grab a lot more when they do get their release.
I'm still very disappointed that this is HH only release, but still its nice to see the range of epic minis expanding!
Gert wrote: I'll probs jump in if/when Knights get a standalone list.
I want to do a full House but 28mm is to expensive and I'm not particularly interested in anything else for LI.
Rules for building a knight household already exist in AT. So the organization is already confirmed. And this game does include knights as attached formations. So it shouldn't be that hard to figure out a Knight Household core for an army. You won't be able to take it to a tournament. But I suspect most FLGS groups will allow it as long as you're not flagrantly taking liberties with it. Of course, since this is a combined arms game, you're going to want more than just knights. Otherwise you're going to lose nearly every game to more balanced formations. But that'll be an issue even after the official Knight Household lists are released.
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Souleater wrote: Regarding the swapping of box halves - are the Marine and SA portions roughly equivalent now?
While splitting a box with someone else is definitely an option I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most people are more interested in the Space Marines than the Solar Auxilia. Getting rid of the Solar Auxilia may not be that easy.
A bit like the Leviathan box, I saw a lot more Tyranid models (at a discounted price) for sale than the Space Marines.
So happy to see the game finally releasing. I also noticed the rule book will have an epub, which is very attractive.
I can’t wait to see exactly what sets come out, because I feel that some things may be coming out that were not mentioned. But we will see. I want to see the army rules before I buy too much stuff.
I must say, given my love for strong artillery and tanks, maybe I will focus more of SA. Sounds like there should be a glut on eBay after launch.
"Those 4 kratos accidentally snuck into the"... absolute dead center of a shot with the rest of the starter box content with the rulebook and box in the background, they're quite stealthy for heavy tanks
Either WarCom missed a memo on their addition to the box, OR the early product prototype for the launch box included Kratos tanks which were later cut for either gameplay, cost, or packaging reasons, and they accidentally used the prototype photo instead of the production photo.
vadersson wrote: So happy to see the game finally releasing. I also noticed the rule book will have an epub, which is very attractive.
I can’t wait to see exactly what sets come out, because I feel that some things may be coming out that were not mentioned. But we will see. I want to see the army rules before I buy too much stuff.
I must say, given my love for strong artillery and tanks, maybe I will focus more of SA. Sounds like there should be a glut on eBay after launch.
All that are preorder now were mentioned. Others get announced later.
Oh good, I'll probably see if I can afford 4 boxes or so at launch, and get another 7 or 8 or more over time unless the cost curve favors buying the individual boxes instead, etc.
And because I know people will ask wtf I want so many boxes for - I'd like to do forces representing at least 11 legions worth of marines, as one of the big headaches for me in 28mm scale has been "which legion should I play", and I've never really satisfactorily been able to answer that. At a small scale its more feasible to do a number of legions than it is on the large scale, so I'm taking advantage of the opportunity. (In case anyone is curious, thats Dark Angels, Emperors Children, Iron Warriors, White Scars, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Imperial Fists, World Eaters, Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and then I'm on the fence about Sons of Horus, Night Lords, Blood Angels, and Salamanders).
The fact that this will result in an incomprehensibly large collection of Solar Auxilia is just gravy and enough extra titans to allow me to start a second another legion (so I can have both a traitor legio and a loyalist legio) is just gravy.
Albertorius wrote: Well, if the price is correct, that is pretty anemic.
I missed the part about the price. What is it and where is this info coming from?
Valrak, apparently
Matrindur wrote: Valrak just uploaded a short video with one interesting bit for LI in there, apparently the box will be £120.
Would be the same price as the new Cerastus knights so £120/155€/$200
I would feel frustrated that Warglaives & Helverins are still not plastic, but Vanguard offer a sensible alternative and one can at least fill a House' allied budget with Marines or Solar Aux.
I'm not sure that looks like it's worth $120, let alone 120 pounds. This is going have as robust a community as the Ash Wastes. Maybe if the rules are really good they'll get the 3D printing crowd to play it for free, but that's a big if. Wouldn't mind getting some little knights though, I missed them last round, and I kinda want some.
I genuinely surprised by how totally not fused I am about the return of epic.
I mainly just want the titans back in production for titanicus, plus maybe a few marines / tanks for base decorations.
Yeah, I'm hoping the 120GBP/200USD price point is in error, or they just aren't offering a notable price break on the big box and the individual boxes are cheaper than anticipated. I really have a hard time seeing that much value in the set at the moment based on the minis.
I know what GW probably thinks everything is worth (figuring that they stick with the standard specialist games pricepoint of $50 for the typical ~9x6x1.5 product box), if that $200 is true you're probably looking at:
-$50 for the marines infantry and dreads
-$50 for the SA infantry and heavy sentinels
-$65 (IIRC) for the warhound titans
-$50 for the Marine tanks (I'm assuming its half a box of Preds, half a box of Sicarans)
-$50 for the SA tanks (again assuming half a box of Lemans Russ's, half a box of Malcadors)
+ whatever for books, tokens, templates, dice, etc.
So all in $265 of real "value" (lets be real the rulebook is going to probably be obsolete within a year anyway if Necromunda is any indication of how this will go, and there are inevitably going to end up being lower cost options to get the rules for the game), which I'm hard pressed to say is actually worth as much as they are charging for it when you compare to size/volume and cost of full size equivalents, etc. Take the Astartes infantry set at an estimated $50 and compare with a box of 20 Mk6 for $80. 22 bases worth of quarter scale miniatures for 2/3rds the price of the full size equivalent doesn't really sound like a good deal. Theres lots of ways to analyze it (proportional to size, proportional to volume, proportional to the number of figures in the box, etc.) and you can spin the argument any which way you want, but if you think of it in the context of "bases" worth of miniatures, which to me seems the most rational way of looking at it, it would seem reasonable to assume that ~22 bases of Legion scale infantry should come in probably somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 the price (somewhere between $20-40, IMO $35 seems like a reasonably fair cost for the contents of that infantry box to me) of 20 bases of HH scale infantry.
Likewise, box of 10 rhinos, I'm figuring $50. But do 10 1/4 size rhinos have as much value to me as a single HH size rhino for the same price? Not... not really. The HH scale kit takes a lot more plastic and occupies about 2x more physical volume than the lil guys do and has amore impactful presence on a game of HH than 10 are likely to have in a game of LI, that price comparison just doesn't seem like I'm getting my moneys worth to me. 6 mini-predators at $50 vs a full size at $70? Ehh, don't think so.
My enthusiasm is starting to cool based on that price rumor. I'm not sure what I expected the price to come in at, but I think $170 was probably more what I was imagining.
Breotan wrote: £120 = $147, not $200. Nice to see GW's USA tax is still a thing.
So, who are the big UK resellers, and do they ship to the US?
Once again, you have to factor in the cost of transatlantic distribution. Its not a "tax" its a cost of doing business with someone on another continent.
There are no UK resellers that will ship to the US, not publicly anyway, and those "underground" options (of which I only know one) will still upcharge you vs what the brits would pay at straight currency from a discounter and hit you with a shipping charge between $50-100 for a box of this size, depending on how much it ends up weighing (speaking from experience). You will manage only a slight discount vs what you would pay if you ordered from a US discounter, but you'll be waiting about 2-3 weeks longer to get it.
The new rulebook cover image is a mess, they must have paid for a rush job there.
And they just had to complicate the layout of the spine...
Beggars can't be choosers on a rush job of this size
The original image of the book provided in the original previews was just a rendering, not the actual book. I don't think the book was ever going to quite end up looking the way you thought it would.
You're going to need to buy 2 starter boxes to meet a basic NetEA army setup, and GW does mention that in the promo...GG
As for the queue, it's not even I.P. locked and is barely *cookie* tracked. I've used multiple sessions of the same browser and/or multiple browsers to sit in the queue in 4-5 spots.
Pacific wrote: Can I ask for people buying from an FLGS in the UK which of the stores have a good record of managing to fulfil pre-orders?
Going halves with a mate and shall be doing the SA
Always had good deliveries from dark sphere.
Goblin Gaming used to be good, but they refused to send orders to Ireland after Brexit I had an order cancelled and lost a ton of loyalty points I'd used/saved up. Up to then though, never had an issue with them.
Entoyment on the south coast was a lovely little shop, looks like they've expanded to online sales as well now.
Same as with lvlupgaming. Great shop that looks like its done well and expanded since I was last there.
If anything, GW is the only place that has failed to provide pre-orders I've made in the past
As for the queue, it's not even I.P. locked and is barely *cookie* tracked. I've used multiple sessions of the same browser and/or multiple browsers to sit in the queue in 4-5 spots.
This. They've improved it since the first iteration where you could literally open a new tab in the same browser and be sat in hundreds of spots. But the queue does nothing to stop 'proper' scalpers from using bots. Even the most basic mobile phone & single Pc can allow a bot hundreds of spots.
The queue system does nothing but punish customers, its ridiculous.
It sounds like its been delayed from the article. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. I hope the cost of the big city/spiral set isn't increased too much as that was a bargain before (at least from buying their terrain in single sets)
My local GW store is listing the tiles and ruins as a single set: "Civitas Imperialis City Road Tiles and Ruins set".
I find this very odd and I hope not, as that is going to drastically increase the cost of the tiles for some sprues of ruins (which are far cheaper from vanguard and easily made from complete building kits)
we have no idea, nobody has seen the sprues or assembly guides, outside of the influencers who received them and are under NDA to not discuss anything about them for another week.
Its reasonable to assume that they are in a much smaller number of pieces than their full scale counterparts. Its also reasonable to assume that they can't be in too many pieces as you are looking at putting 2-4 of most of these tanks on a single sprue.
Shrapnelsmile wrote: is it true these tanks are in a vast number of small pieces for assembly? Several youtubers were discussing that.
I don't think we've seen sprues and such yet. But its epic so its going to be stuff similar to the Aircraft and Knights that we've seen from GW already. So yes there will be tiny parts, those side mounted guns; turrets, alternate barrels for weapons. All those things and more - heck regular infantry are going to be tiny. That's just part and parcel of this scale of game.
Shrapnelsmile wrote: is it true these tanks are in a vast number of small pieces for assembly? Several youtubers were discussing that.
It's true, I have seen the models and the building instructions. If you ever built Aeronautica Imperialis planes / Adeptus Titanicus knights, it's the same amount of nitpicking small parts. But the end result is really worth the time building them.
As expected, the expansion material isn't present at launch.
chaos0xomega wrote: Oh good, I'll probably see if I can afford 4 boxes or so at launch, and get another 7 or 8 or more over time unless the cost curve favors buying the individual boxes instead, etc.
Why do you need so many? I know you explained wanting to do every Legion, but wouldn't it be better to buy the other things than just get the same box over and over again?
TalonZahn wrote: As for the queue, it's not even I.P. locked and is barely *cookie* tracked. I've used multiple sessions of the same browser and/or multiple browsers to sit in the queue in 4-5 spots.
edit: apparently anything not listed here is direct-only
Here is the complete version:
The video does also show the other Cerastus variants, the Porphyrion, the Warbringer and the two different warhound versions but the in the text of the article it doesn't say anything about them so that might be mistake and they will come later. Which would make the price list more believable as they are also missing here
chaos0xomega wrote: Oh good, I'll probably see if I can afford 4 boxes or so at launch, and get another 7 or 8 or more over time unless the cost curve favors buying the individual boxes instead, etc.
Why do you need so many? I know you explained wanting to do every Legion, but wouldn't it be better to buy the other things than just get the same box over and over again?
Way I see it is it just kind of makes sense. I'm going to need infantry for most of the legions I want to do (if possible id like to lean into bikes for white scars, so maybe not for them, and maybe i'll try to go for an armored list for one of the others or something, we'll see), some I may want to go heavy into regular tactical marines (iron warriors, imp fists, and death guard for example), while others I may want to lean into terminators or assault marines, etc. So given that you only get I think 2 bases of assault marines, 2 bases of terminators, etc. per set (regardless of how you buy them), I'm going to need a lot of sets to do the mix and matching I want to do. On top of that, from what I've gathered the contents of the box is basically half the infantry you realistically want for a typical force - though since Im more likely going to be playing a mixed legion force on the table I probably don't need to buy a second set of infantry for each legion.
Contemptors - great I'll probably use them in just about every legion, maybe i'll lean in on them more heavily in some than in others, whatever. More is more.
Sicarans and Predators? Well those are basically being sold to me in half sets, so I basically need to convert them at a ratio of 2 boxes to 1 unit, so if I get 12 boxes, I end up with 6 detachments or whatever worth of each, etc. I wont necessarily field preds or sicarans with every force I do, so not a big deal, and I'll eventually be buying Kratos's and other stuff as well, but it'll be a good foundation for a good number of the forces I want to build.
If I were to buy this stuff individually I'd be paying $150 msrp anyway, and not getting warhound titans or solar auxilia, so might as well just spend the extra $50 until I have most of the infantry, dreads, preds, and sicarans I need. If it reaches the point where I have too many warhounds or SA I can always start parting stuff out to make it more cost effective. Books I can probably get $20/ea back for if nothing else.
* These products have all been delayed for a short time in Australia and New Zealand.
Yeah, that'd be right
Not sure if I should be happy or sad. Sad that I have to wait, happy to see that I get to see how the launch goes in other places before having to commit myself.
Well, I’ve still got minis back to the original game that have barely seen use, and a mass of 3D prints, so the price point for this is out of my tolerance level.
Likewise, even $60 for the rulebook alone is a bit of a cringe, knowing the quality of GW rules.
I think in the end the right thing for me to do is just go back to what I already have and see if I can find someone to play with using just that and whatever rules I can scrape up.
Cleaning and assembling these tiny models is going to drive new gamers bonkers.
The infantry, OK to have separate and then base, but did the vehicles need to be in so many parts?
Repeat for hundreds of infantry and dozens of vehicles for a base army.
No more bonkers than gamers years ago or gamers getting super fine detail 3D prints today.
Also don't forget a LOT of people don't "see" mould lines on models. Heck even at least one or two of the example models in WD this month that were painted up have very clear mould lines on gun barrels.
Plus people have managed with the AT game; this is no different; its just "more" because its going from a few knights to tanks and ranks of infantry
And yes the tanks likely do have to come in that many parts to allow for
1) Modular design so that 1 hull can build multiple variations
2) Retain high detail. If you've got high detail you've got to part those tanks up otherwise you have to lose a LOT of it because of the realities of injection moulded plastics. In the past GW got away with it a bit in Epic 40K by having metal models that had way more detail; but even then core tank hulls and side panels with treds and such were common
Does anything need to be in so many parts? I've started to build the new Terminator box. Why in the Emperor's name is each set of legs in 5 pieces? You can't even pose the model at the waist once you're done. Maddening over design.
Overread wrote: No more bonkers than gamers years ago or gamers getting super fine detail 3D prints today.
Sure, but most people who buy this game won't have been buying tiny 3D-printed models. So his point still stands - cleaning up and assembling these little models will test the more inexperienced players.
Retain high detail. If you've got high detail you've got to part those tanks up otherwise you have to lose a LOT of it because of the realities of injection moulded plastics. In the past GW got away with it a bit in Epic 40K by having metal models that had way more detail; but even then core tank hulls and side panels with treds and such were common
And GW have arguably pushed this too far. I love their plastics as a rule, but there are numerous examples of questionable design decisions when it comes to placement on the sprues and how pieces are assembled, and simply the amount of small detail. Fixing damaged rivets on these small vehicles will also be a nightmare. To some extent I am trying to convince myself not to invest in yet another pile of grey plastic, but I think these are real issues. Painting them, on the other hand, is far easier than larger scale models - they are perfect for washing and drybrushing.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Does anything need to be in so many parts? I've started to build the new Terminator box. Why in the Emperor's name is each set of legs in 5 pieces? You can't even pose the model at the waist once you're done. Maddening over design.
Indeed. The Heresy Dreads all seem to have multiple sub-assemblies, and take ages to clean up and assemble (and force me to read the instructions). But it does pay off when it comes to the look of the finished model.
buy stock in the manufacturers of popsicle sticks. People will be buying them by the truckload in order to paint up their infantry before putting them on the bases.
I really hope that's not how the actual book got printed, because it looks like the problem print that they likely had to redo all this crap for in the first place.
On the other hand, are people really complaining about building model kits now? Jesus Christ, Dakkadakka...
Chopstick wrote: Use a tweezer and a glue bottle with fine tip brush. I don't even need tweezer 90% of the time. This is basic hobby skill.
It entirely depends whether or not people care about mould lines.
If you can live with mould lines on your tiny dudes, assembly will be very fast (looks like the gates were designed to attach to the blob between the legs, so all you need to do is clip them off and glue them down).
If you can't live with mould lines, prepare for hour upon hour of cramps trying to clean tiny little dudes.
10 year old me back in the mid 90's didn't care about mould lines. Old cranky me in the 10's cares more. Partially because old cranky me uses a lot of washes and drybrushes, and leaving mould lines on when washing and drybrushing makes them stand out and look terrible.
Perhaps modern GW casting can reduce mould lines to the point they don't need to be cleaned, perhaps.
But this is why Epic is basically made for 3D printing A well designed 3D printed model has almost no cleanup, just glue it down and it's good to go with no mould lines.
Interesting to see an increase in price on the questoris knights. They were already overpriced at $35 for 3 (one sprue). Jumping them to $45 seems odd. Maybe they’re putting 6 per box?
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Adding up the cost and multiplying by 1.5 to get roughly the Australian pricing... I think this game is going to be too expensive for me.
Though I haven't tried to add up the points, maybe I'm just overestimating how much would be required to make an army.
Someone added up points over on B&C so this may help you estimate:
A thunder hawk is 150 points for £30
The Kratos squadron is 260 points for £30
The rhinos are 50 points for £30
The auxilia are 218 points for £30
The lightnings are 170 points for £30
The marauders are 170 points for £30
The baneblades are 190 points for £30
The questoris banner is (i think) 180 for £27.5
xttz wrote: edit: apparently anything not listed here is direct-only
Oh that will go great for the game... so no non-GW discounts on anything else. Great, great.
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Stormonu wrote: Well, I’ve still got minis back to the original game that have barely seen use, and a mass of 3D prints, so the price point for this is out of my tolerance level.
Likewise, even $60 for the rulebook alone is a bit of a cringe, knowing the quality of GW rules.
I think in the end the right thing for me to do is just go back to what I already have and see if I can find someone to play with using just that and whatever rules I can scrape up.
Yeah, I still have like a chapter's worth of old SM sprues, both infantry and vehicles, to run through...
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Overread wrote: No more bonkers than gamers years ago or gamers getting super fine detail 3D prints today. common
Dunno man, these have 5 pieces at the very highest end
Spoiler:
Took all of a minute to assemble.
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drbored wrote: I really hope that's not how the actual book got printed, because it looks like the problem print that they likely had to redo all this crap for in the first place.
On the other hand, are people really complaining about building model kits now? Jesus Christ, Dakkadakka...
I'm told it's not, and that's actually the other way around... apparently the original book had the wonky cover and it's centered on the new one.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Adding up the cost and multiplying by 1.5 to get roughly the Australian pricing... I think this game is going to be too expensive for me.
Though I haven't tried to add up the points, maybe I'm just overestimating how much would be required to make an army.
Someone added up points over on B&C so this may help you estimate:
A thunder hawk is 150 points for £30
The Kratos squadron is 260 points for £30
The rhinos are 50 points for £30
The auxilia are 218 points for £30
The lightnings are 170 points for £30
The marauders are 170 points for £30
The baneblades are 190 points for £30
The questoris banner is (i think) 180 for £27.5
I was thinking along the lines of starter set + Kratos + Rhino + Baneblade + Infantry set + maybe something else, then when they come out a box of Predators + Leman Russ + Land Raiders.
That's ~$600USD, which will likely end up $900-1000AUD. Seems a bit much to me for what feels like a medium sized army, but maybe that's actually a big army?
Even on their own website they say:
