AllSeeingSkink wrote: Adding up the cost and multiplying by 1.5 to get roughly the Australian pricing... I think this game is going to be too expensive for me.
Though I haven't tried to add up the points, maybe I'm just overestimating how much would be required to make an army.
Someone added up points over on B&C so this may help you estimate:
A thunder hawk is 150 points for £30
The Kratos squadron is 260 points for £30
The rhinos are 50 points for £30
Rhinos are 10pts each, so 100pts for £30. Still not great, but that'll put drop pods to shame
Kratos may cost more points depending how you deploy them. 2x2 is more than 1x4
Stormonu wrote:Well, I’ve still got minis back to the original game that have barely seen use, and a mass of 3D prints, so the price point for this is out of my tolerance level.
Likewise, even $60 for the rulebook alone is a bit of a cringe, knowing the quality of GW rules.
I think in the end the right thing for me to do is just go back to what I already have and see if I can find someone to play with using just that and whatever rules I can scrape up.
The market will be flooded with rulesbooks though, Someone at GW clearly thought they'd at least cash in on people that want the rules and 3d print. But they seem to forget that the starter set is going to get brought up in bulk. €10 rulebooks on local hobby groups on day of release for sure.
Bit disappointing the city tiles are direct only. I suspect like the necromunda tiles they will be out of stock for months a time (probably shipping from china), but they are one of a handful of items here that they could have enticed other 6mm gamers to actually buy and use. I'd been thinking about getting 6 sets at launch (I have a LOT of old terrain I like to finally get built) but suspect they will limit them per order. Looks like the local warhammer store had their list wrong when they listed the ruins & tiles as one set. (Thankfully, those ruins are ok, but ending up with one per tile set would have been too much additional cost)
The prices are ok I guess, about what I was expecting. Will be a bit better with FLGS discounts. But I this will be another case of avoid buying individual miniature sets and buy a starter set every time I want to expand the infantry. I think we will be seeing warhounds being passed about for pennies!
Undecided on this, just thinking about what I'd be likely to pick up; probably starter, Rhinos, Kratos, Baneblades and two sets of the ruins from a 3rd party store, so that's £300rrp or probably £240 with 3rd party discount. Then would also be looking at 4 sets of tiles and the card sets (played a lot of 2nd edition Space Marine, so got to have cards!) from GW, which is probably going to be at least another £200 as I'm guessing the tiles are going to come in at at least £50 a set based on the Necromunda ones, so it is looking pretty pricey.
I suspect the tiles and cards are going to be a nightmare to get hold of, both on release day and afterwards (if they're even available after) especially as anyone buying the tiles is probably going to be looking at buying at least 4 sets.
Tavis75 wrote: Undecided on this, just thinking about what I'd be likely to pick up; probably starter, Rhinos, Kratos, Baneblades and two sets of the ruins from a 3rd party store, so that's £300rrp or probably £240 with 3rd party discount. Then would also be looking at 4 sets of tiles and the card sets (played a lot of 2nd edition Space Marine, so got to have cards!) from GW, which is probably going to be at least another £200 as I'm guessing the tiles are going to come in at at least £50 a set based on the Necromunda ones, so it is looking pretty pricey.
I suspect the tiles and cards are going to be a nightmare to get hold of, both on release day and afterwards (if they're even available after) especially as anyone buying the tiles is probably going to be looking at buying at least 4 sets.
Based on the US price list the tiles are the same price as the Warlord titan so £70/90€ so pretty pricey.
I plan to start with smaller 2x3 games so I think I will get one set for those and just use a gamemat for bigger 5x4 games.
Just not worth having to buy four sets for those but a single set for smaller games is something my wallet can live with
I suspect the tiles and cards are going to be a nightmare to get hold of, both on release day and afterwards (if they're even available after) especially as anyone buying the tiles is probably going to be looking at buying at least 4 sets.
Given that the preview video they showed off a while ago included some tiles that aren't part of this set (such as an L-shape), it's reasonable to assume there may be at least one more set of tiles released in future.
Keep in mind that if you go all-in for a full board now you might wish you hadn't.
Based on the US price list the tiles are the same price as the Warlord titan so £70/90€ so pretty pricey.
I plan to start with smaller 2x3 games so I think I will get one set for those and just use a gamemat for bigger 5x4 games.
Just not worth having to buy four sets for those but a single set for smaller games is something my wallet can live with
Only part of board being city with green/whatever areas elsewhere feels better for big battles anyway.
Units like Kratos & Baneblades work out at a very similar cost to their old single-model blister pack counterparts from the mid-90's, but are also much larger and more highly detailed models with several build options.
The same will apply to units like the leman russ. Formerly £5 for a blister pack of three (adjusted to £12 for inflation), the new box is likely to be £30 for eight plastic tanks with different weapon options.
Modern kits will definitely pale in comparison to the mass-produced Space Marine infantry, with hundreds of identical tactical marines in a box box. Though personally I also prefer to get 100 better quality & highly varied squads over 400 identical guys for some kind of marine horde.
However once you compare Epic 40k, the pricing was actually worse than right now in some cases. The new LI marine infantry box is 20 marine infantry bases + 4 dreads for £30 (cheaper from the core box and 3rd parties). Adjusting for inflation this Epic 40k box would be around £12 today, and gave you just 7 general infantry bases plus a few bikes:
Spoiler:
There's a few new items I think are poor value for money though. I will definitely be drawing a line at things like drop pods, and probably any more terrain. Quite disappointed that the Ruins set is £45 when similar AT terrain boxes were £30.
Souleater wrote: Has anyone worked out a rough cost for a standard army?
I will try from the WH+ bat rep they’re doing this week.
Someone on B&C did, comes out about the same as a 40k force for the 3k point "normal" game size, I think I saw £350-450 for a full army with some support options.
Souleater wrote: Has anyone worked out a rough cost for a standard army?
I will try from the WH+ bat rep they’re doing this week.
Someone on B&C did, comes out about the same as a 40k force for the 3k point "normal" game size, I think I saw 350-450$ for a full army with some support options.
Yeah they worked it out as £450 for a 3k army. Note they were working in GBP.
xttz wrote: However once you compare Epic 40k, the pricing was actually worse than right now in some cases. The new LI marine infantry box is 20 marine infantry bases + 4 dreads for £30 (cheaper from the core box and 3rd parties). Adjusting for inflation this Epic 40k box would be around £12 today, and gave you just 7 general infantry bases plus a few bikes:
Spoiler:
Those tactical, devastator, and assault squads were two stands each. The box provided half a battle company, plus a single stand of terminators, scouts, and command, for a total of 13 stands of infantry plus bikes and a single librarian with no spare guys to fill out the base.
£8 in 1993 money is £20.00 or so in 2023 money, to give some idea of direct comparisons.
You got a lot more actually useable stuff in the plastic boxes for those £8, though.
Also an FLGS would give a discount back in the day also, so you could have probably got it for about £7 equivalent.
Ultimately, snot nosed kid version of me with an income of a few dollarydoos a week (assuming I did my chores) was able to amass a couple of reasonable armies back in the day. I wonder if snot nosed kids these days could do the same with LI.
Waaagh_Gonads wrote: Cleaning and assembling these tiny models is going to drive new gamers bonkers.
The infantry, OK to have separate and then base, but did the vehicles need to be in so many parts?
Repeat for hundreds of infantry and dozens of vehicles for a base army.
GW can do this because they know that most of these boxes will never leave shrinkwrap
I would say the prices are reasonable (or at least within expectations). Useful to see the inflation cost posts above, and it coming out similarly to the original games tank blister packs - where this falls down slightly is of course that infantry were super cheap in the original and every marine player had bulked-out armies with plastic land Raiders and rhinos (this is why those are still cheap even 30 years later on eBay, as they must have sold tens of thousands of the things!)
Another stumbling point is the very high points/miniature volume which GW have set as the 'standard' games value. My prediction is that this will be too much for an evening's play, and the community (not GW) will decide what a 'standard' game is. If it is perhaps two-thirds the amount, that will help push down the cost to play a little more.
Prices are... borderline for today's standards I guess. But funny thing, when AI came out we balked at the price per model, but we were told by the optimists here on Dakka that once Epic rolls around with its higher model count requirements, they would be made more affordable. Now those people are praising GW for at least keeping the price the same
£8 in 1993 money is £20.00 or so in 2023 money, to give some idea of direct comparisons.
You got a lot more actually useable stuff in the plastic boxes for those £8, though.
Also an FLGS would give a discount back in the day also, so you could have probably got it for about £7 equivalent.
Ultimately, snot nosed kid version of me with an income of a few dollarydoos a week (assuming I did my chores) was able to amass a couple of reasonable armies back in the day. I wonder if snot nosed kids these days could do the same with LI.
Depends entirely on the depth of their pockets.
As said snot nosed kid? I had a paper round which paid something like…£18 a week? Maybe less. I mean, it’s 28 years ago so no chance of accuracy. I’d also get £5 a week from my parents. Out if that I paid for my sweets, my ciggies (I was a stupid kid), bus and train fares when going somewhere, magazines, and plastic crack.
I have absolutely no idea what kids get pocket money wise these days, or now I think about it, if paper rounds even exist in the UK, let alone what they pay!
Adnimistratum Sector? Seem the only one that looks overpricey?
The tiles are webstore only so aren't available to retailers so not on the price list. The other US list that does have them on it have them at the same price as a Warlord Titan so £70/90€/115$
Adnimistratum Sector? Seem the only one that looks overpricey?
The tiles are webstore only so aren't available to retailers so not on the price list. The other US list that does have them on it have them at the same price as a Warlord Titan so £70/90€/115$
Oh Ok. So does that mean you can only get the Tiles from GW's Website?
Waaagh_Gonads wrote: Cleaning and assembling these tiny models is going to drive new gamers bonkers.
The infantry, OK to have separate and then base, but did the vehicles need to be in so many parts?
Repeat for hundreds of infantry and dozens of vehicles for a base army.
GW can do this because they know that most of these boxes will never leave shrinkwrap
xttz wrote: However once you compare Epic 40k, the pricing was actually worse than right now in some cases. The new LI marine infantry box is 20 marine infantry bases + 4 dreads for £30 (cheaper from the core box and 3rd parties). Adjusting for inflation this Epic 40k box would be around £12 today, and gave you just 7 general infantry bases plus a few bikes:
Spoiler:
Those tactical, devastator, and assault squads were two stands each. The box provided half a battle company, plus a single stand of terminators, scouts, and command, for a total of 13 stands of infantry plus bikes and a single librarian with no spare guys to fill out the base.
Yeah, it's more complicated than that xD. With the old box you could assemble 13 marine bases of multiple types, plus a bike squad. Double that and you'd have 26 infantry bases plus two bike squads, and 6 pounds ^^.
However once you compare Epic 40k, the pricing was actually worse than right now in some cases. The new LI marine infantry box is 20 marine infantry bases + 4 dreads for £30 (cheaper from the core box and 3rd parties). Adjusting for inflation this Epic 40k box would be around £12 today, and gave you just 7 general infantry bases plus a few bikes:
Spoiler:
If you add the 4 dreadnoughts blister that was also at £5 back then (if memory serves), you can get a closer comparison point with 13 infantry bases, 4 dreadnoughts and 2 bike stands (2 bikes per stand) for roughly £24 today. Quite equivalent to today's LI content in terms of value imho.
Edit: corrected number of stands
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: By the time I got into 2nd Ed Epic it was three to a blister. Barring the odd dusty peg warmer!
bought virtually all of mine in 1st edition, 2nd was mostly just the boxed set for me.
Curious though, reading the articles the box has two terminator stands, though the detachment is four.
have we seen anywhere if you can attach one or two to another infantry formation (same with the other stands, doesn't look like there is enough of any to run alone so presumably you have the two full tactical squads (four bases) and will have some options to attach support units?
Souleater wrote: Has anyone worked out a rough cost for a standard army?
I will try from the WH+ bat rep they’re doing this week.
Someone on B&C did, comes out about the same as a 40k force for the 3k point "normal" game size, I think I saw 350-450$ for a full army with some support options.
Yeah they worked it out as £450 for a 3k army. Note they were working in GBP.
Curious though, reading the articles the box has two terminator stands, though the detachment is four.
have we seen anywhere if you can attach one or two to another infantry formation (same with the other stands, doesn't look like there is enough of any to run alone so presumably you have the two full tactical squads (four bases) and will have some options to attach support units?
Yes, the support units like assault marines, terminators, dreads, etc can be attached to a tactical detachment (and presumably other types) two bases at a time.
Or you can double up with four bases in a detachment of their own.
Curious though, reading the articles the box has two terminator stands, though the detachment is four.
have we seen anywhere if you can attach one or two to another infantry formation (same with the other stands, doesn't look like there is enough of any to run alone so presumably you have the two full tactical squads (four bases) and will have some options to attach support units?
Yes, the support units like assault marines, terminators, dreads, etc can be attached to a tactical detachment (and presumably other types) two bases at a time.
Or you can double up with four bases in a detachment of their own.
that makes sense.
thinking getting a box here and maybe a second, but want to read and play it first
mould lines everywhere, which is not a good look for brand new models, marks where some rough file work has tried to remove a few and then not been cleaned up, paint overlaps left without a clean up stage, blotchy (because unthinned) contrast, base coats that are not covering right.
I mean I'm no expert but my epic stuff back in my teen years was neater than this, probably took longer, but I doubt that much longer. And the printed stuff I've been fiddling with is better, at least if I get black or metals over a base colour I go back and correct it.
yes it being 8mm will hide many sins from a distance but ummm.. this is hardly a showcase of amazing painting done quickly.
Wonder what Duncan and Peachy will make of it when they inevitably do some of these?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chopstick wrote: Looks like the prime was too thick and the surface aren't smooth enough. And those moldline geezus
I mean, I'm pretty used to the stuff I take out of the printed, and these are horrible in comparison... and that's even the "rough" 50 microns quality
EDIT: ..wow, yeah, I see what you mean about the priming and the assembling/moulds. Good god, who thought it would be a good idea to show this... prime it black if you're gonna do such a rush job at least, it will look better.
if the very professional model builder and painter, who get paid to do that, for a promotional video, cannot do it not sure of we can do it
and not like GW had such kits in the past were you needed Greenstuff to fill the gaps.
yet with larger models you actually can use GS, doubt that this is an option with those
Just for an S&G bit of giggle and a walk down memory lane, does anybody have links/info on what the old 1st Edition Space Marine set cost (in USD?). I can't even remember what I paid for it (I'm thinking $50, but that was like 30 years ago), but remember feeling that it was both expensive and a great value at the same time.
I don't think the examples are too bad, and at least it does look fairly quick. I think as Lord Blackfang says blowing the shots up to screen-filling high definition will not help (I always have my stuff photographed at a fair distance, and it doesn't matter as people don't microscopes for eyes )
Although I have a problem with things like tassels and belts being visible on Epic miniatures, it is too much detail for the scale! The whole thing with these (and the big benefit of the original game) was that you could belt out an infantry company in an hour, not ruin your eyes painting tiny 28mm-level-detail miniatures!
Stormonu wrote: Just for an S&G bit of giggle and a walk down memory lane, does anybody have links/info on what the old 1st Edition Space Marine set cost (in USD?). I can't even remember what I paid for it (I'm thinking $50, but that was like 30 years ago), but remember feeling that it was both expensive and a great value at the same time.
No idea about Space Marine 1st edition, but Epic 40k was 60 euros on release, which in today's money would be 109.05 euros
kodos wrote: if the very professional model builder and painter, who get paid to do that, for a promotional video, cannot do it not sure of we can do it
and not like GW had such kits in the past were you needed Greenstuff to fill the gaps.
yet with larger models you actually can use GS, doubt that this is an option with those
Look the painting was straight bad, so I can't imagine the assembling was any better. It feel like they shoved a pile of plastic under the team's nose 20 minutes ago and told em to get to work.
Stormonu wrote: Just for an S&G bit of giggle and a walk down memory lane, does anybody have links/info on what the old 1st Edition Space Marine set cost (in USD?). I can't even remember what I paid for it (I'm thinking $50, but that was like 30 years ago), but remember feeling that it was both expensive and a great value at the same time.
dunno in USD but I remember paying £20 for the 1st edition boxed set (seemed to be a standard boxed set price, got Mighty Empires for the same at the same time)
kodos wrote: if the very professional model builder and painter, who get paid to do that, for a promotional video, cannot do it not sure of we can do it
and not like GW had such kits in the past were you needed Greenstuff to fill the gaps.
yet with larger models you actually can use GS, doubt that this is an option with those
Look the painting was straight bad, so I can't imagine the assembling was any better. It feel like they shoved a pile of plastic under the team's nose 20 minutes ago and told em to get to work.
you mean people will buy it anyway so why should the stuff waste a full hour on it
That is still one of the best sets/games GW has ever put out. Its just such a good set that feels 'complete' as a starter set and isn't a bunch of random models thrown together.
Its still my favourite era of 40k as well. Before the super serious grimdark era completely took over.
I can't wait to get some of these new models done to use with 3rd!
For a reasonable force, if I buy 1 Core box, for a balanced force, should I be buying another infantry box too?
Is the Infantry (marine for example) box the same contents as the marines that come in the Core duplicated?
The infantry in the core box and the infantry in the marine box are the same. You probably will want to buy at least 1 infantry box if you're only getting the core box, unless your goal is to play a vehicle heavy army, etc. For context, the blood angels army list from the WD battle report featured the tactical marines from 3 boxes worth of kits, missile launcher specialists from 4 boxes, and terminators from 6.
The Death Guard/EC build was more sane and could be built fully out of 3 boxes (including 1 core box for the SA auxiliary detachment). - one for the DG Garrison force, and 2 for the EC demi-company.
This is, I think, something that will become a problem over time, but noticing that the infantry box is currently all mk6, I have a supsicion that future mk2/3/4/5 infantry kits will be released that will have different proportions of terminators, assault marines, specialists, etc. in them. For example the mk4 box might have no assault marines but 2x as many tartaros terminators. A mk3 box might have half as many tac marines, but 3x as many assault marines, etc.
Well, that all looks absolutely terrible, but it may just be the closeups. Probably shouldn't zoom into this stuff until it's as big as 40k versions.
Thats because of the zoom mate. Look at her fingernail for context.
To my old eye, doesn't look out of the ordinary considering the scale. Moderately sloppy modelling and painting goes often unnoticed in 28mil, but in 8mil, even something like perfectly thinning your paints (as well as minimizing the layers of overlapping paint to begin with) will be critical for results that can whitstand scrutiny at such insane zoom levels.
If you go read up on stuff at 1:500 miniature model boat forums, I bet this stuff will come up. At such extreme scales, modelling chops need to be through the roof for extreme closeup neatness
For a reasonable force, if I buy 1 Core box, for a balanced force, should I be buying another infantry box too?
Is the Infantry (marine for example) box the same contents as the marines that come in the Core duplicated?
The infantry in the core box and the infantry in the marine box are the same. You probably will want to buy at least 1 infantry box if you're only getting the core box, unless your goal is to play a vehicle heavy army, etc. .
I just realized I have a very ignorant question. (For context, LI is my first Epic game.) I was assuming that players had the option to have a combined army of SM and auxilia supporting each other. Is that not the case?
For a reasonable force, if I buy 1 Core box, for a balanced force, should I be buying another infantry box too?
Is the Infantry (marine for example) box the same contents as the marines that come in the Core duplicated?
The infantry in the core box and the infantry in the marine box are the same. You probably will want to buy at least 1 infantry box if you're only getting the core box, unless your goal is to play a vehicle heavy army, etc. .
I just realized I have a very ignorant question. (For context, LI is my first Epic game.) I was assuming that players had the option to have a combined army of SM and auxilia supporting each other. Is that not the case?
Oh you can but it’s not going to be a 50:50 split - you pick your main army then up to ¼ of your points can be spent on allies. So Astra Militarum, knights, and Titans if your primary is Legiones Astartes.
It's dumb that buying the box will be better value than buying just the rulebook and the marines separately. The only good thing is that since this box isn't a limited release, I can actually ignore the preorders completely and can buy a box later when its financially easiest for me (which would be around February).
Sounds like a plan to me. HH2 Assault Squad and the new Scouts are my number 1 priority for now anyway
xttz wrote: However once you compare Epic 40k, the pricing was actually worse than right now in some cases. The new LI marine infantry box is 20 marine infantry bases + 4 dreads for £30 (cheaper from the core box and 3rd parties). Adjusting for inflation this Epic 40k box would be around £12 today, and gave you just 7 general infantry bases plus a few bikes:
Spoiler:
Those tactical, devastator, and assault squads were two stands each. The box provided half a battle company, plus a single stand of terminators, scouts, and command, for a total of 13 stands of infantry plus bikes and a single librarian with no spare guys to fill out the base.
Yeah, it's more complicated than that xD. With the old box you could assemble 13 marine bases of multiple types, plus a bike squad. Double that and you'd have 26 infantry bases plus two bike squads, and 6 pounds ^^.
Of course 12 pounds of then isn't 12 pounds of today...
More comparable is multiplying contents by 1.5. 20 pounds inflation adjusted, remaining as gw increase. So 19.5 stands, bikes and characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tauist wrote: It's dumb that buying the box will be better value than buying just the rulebook and the marines separately. The only good thing is that since this box isn't a limited release, I can actually ignore the preorders completely and can buy a box later when its financially easiest for me (which would be around February).
Sounds like a plan to me. HH2 Assault Squad and the new Scouts are my number 1 priority for now anyway
Uuh...what?
So gw shouldn't release discount boxes? Well sure profit maximize wise shouldn't but why do you care about gw not maximizing profits
What good it would do if box was more expensive so 0 discount?
That ruins kit price is coming in a little too high for my taste. Was looking at picking it up to supplement my existing AT terrain, but I have other options.
Glad to see most of the AT stuff will be back. And if anyone's looking to dump some extra Warhounds...come see me.
xttz wrote: However once you compare Epic 40k, the pricing was actually worse than right now in some cases. The new LI marine infantry box is 20 marine infantry bases + 4 dreads for £30 (cheaper from the core box and 3rd parties). Adjusting for inflation this Epic 40k box would be around £12 today, and gave you just 7 general infantry bases plus a few bikes:
Spoiler:
Those tactical, devastator, and assault squads were two stands each. The box provided half a battle company, plus a single stand of terminators, scouts, and command, for a total of 13 stands of infantry plus bikes and a single librarian with no spare guys to fill out the base.
Yeah, it's more complicated than that xD. With the old box you could assemble 13 marine bases of multiple types, plus a bike squad. Double that and you'd have 26 infantry bases plus two bike squads, and 6 pounds ^^.
Of course 12 pounds of then isn't 12 pounds of today...
More comparable is multiplying contents by 1.5. 20 pounds inflation adjusted, remaining as gw increase. So 19.5 stands, bikes and characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tauist wrote: It's dumb that buying the box will be better value than buying just the rulebook and the marines separately. The only good thing is that since this box isn't a limited release, I can actually ignore the preorders completely and can buy a box later when its financially easiest for me (which would be around February).
Sounds like a plan to me. HH2 Assault Squad and the new Scouts are my number 1 priority for now anyway
Uuh...what?
So gw shouldn't release discount boxes? Well sure profit maximize wise shouldn't but why do you care about gw not maximizing profits
What good it would do if box was more expensive so 0 discount?
My point is, the individual kit prices are too high compared to the box. The difference is laughable. Buying 10 Rhinos, Rulebook and one Marine detachment costs more than the entire box if bought from a discounter.
xttz wrote: However once you compare Epic 40k, the pricing was actually worse than right now in some cases. The new LI marine infantry box is 20 marine infantry bases + 4 dreads for £30 (cheaper from the core box and 3rd parties). Adjusting for inflation this Epic 40k box would be around £12 today, and gave you just 7 general infantry bases plus a few bikes:
Spoiler:
Those tactical, devastator, and assault squads were two stands each. The box provided half a battle company, plus a single stand of terminators, scouts, and command, for a total of 13 stands of infantry plus bikes and a single librarian with no spare guys to fill out the base.
Yeah, it's more complicated than that xD. With the old box you could assemble 13 marine bases of multiple types, plus a bike squad. Double that and you'd have 26 infantry bases plus two bike squads, and 6 pounds ^^.
Of course 12 pounds of then isn't 12 pounds of today...
We know. Here:
Adjusting for inflation this Epic 40k box would be around £12 today
It wasn't £12 then, it was 12 of today's £s, after adjusting for inflation.
Also, still seems for the price it's kind of dicey. If everything, other than launch box, was even $10-$15 less I would be FAR more impressed and likely to go hog wild.
Even though a person can still get 4x as much, for the price, when 3d printing.
GW has clearly dropped the points on stuff to increase the need to buy more boxes.
chaos0xomega wrote: Why, so they can charge you $50 for two plastic Aeldari Scorpions?
OK, good point!
But still, war on this scale is a lot of fun, and 'should' be where this is happening vs. what 40K has turned into over the last (x) number of editions - but that's another discussion, for another thread!
However, $50.00 for two small(ish) tanks feels like a bad idea...
It does seem a bit much. But the bulk of your tanks will probably be smaller tanks like the Leman Russ. Chances are that the super-heavies will be fewer in number. Doesn't make the price not seem like a bit much. But they probably won't be the bulk of most armored lists.
Eumerin wrote: It does seem a bit much. But the bulk of your tanks will probably be smaller tanks like the Leman Russ. Chances are that the super-heavies will be fewer in number. Doesn't make the price not seem like a bit much. But they probably won't be the bulk of most armored lists.
I mean, it's not like 6 smol LRs for $50 is such a good price either
Eumerin wrote: It does seem a bit much. But the bulk of your tanks will probably be smaller tanks like the Leman Russ. Chances are that the super-heavies will be fewer in number. Doesn't make the price not seem like a bit much. But they probably won't be the bulk of most armored lists.
I mean, it's not like 6 smol LRs for $50 is such a good price either
I agree. But given the inflation of the last couple of years, maybe not so surprising...
Eumerin wrote: I just realized - the price list that's circulating doesn't have any of the medium tanks like the Leman Russ. That's odd...
Not that odd. They never actually announced standalone kits for the Leman Russ, Malcador, Predator, or Sicaran, nor did they say those would be going up for preorder next week. You aren't seeing prices for them, because they officially do not exist yet, for the time being they are core box only.
Eumerin wrote: I just realized - the price list that's circulating doesn't have any of the medium tanks like the Leman Russ. That's odd...
Can't release all at once, wallets can only take that much.
Yup. Anything in this wave is competing with the £120 core box, £100 terrain box, etc.
I expect to see at least two more LI waves from what we've seen so far:
1) Predators / Sicarans / Russ / Malcador / Support boxes, plus the new plastic Dire Wolves.
Also re-releases for Warhounds, missing flyers, and other terrain kits.
This rounds out anything in the core rulebook.
2) The expansion book with any some/all of the related units such as:
Fast attack, land raiders, drop pods, stormhammer, etc
so with the things coming out and the costs now being around it has killed a lot of interest in my local area, people are saying they cost of entry is too high for how little you get, not sure I agree but this was always going to be an easy sell to me.
chaos0xomega wrote: Just be glad it contains statlines in it at all. You didn't get any of that in the AoD HH book, nor in the 40k or AoS core rulebooks.
Pretty close to a false equivalency. It's 2 armies, not 20+ armies, AoS has like 28 armies.
HH is a dump truck full of special units and characters on top the regular units and there's been no indication, beyond paint schemes, there will be Units like; Tyrant Siegebreakers, Deathwing Companions, Golden Keshig, Dawnbreakers, etc...
This is literally Marines vs. Solar Auxilla.
Seeing how thick the book is, there's no room for a couple pages for basic units like the Land Raider or Drop Pods?
chaos0xomega wrote: Just be glad it contains statlines in it at all. You didn't get any of that in the AoD HH book, nor in the 40k or AoS core rulebooks.
Pretty close to a false equivalency. It's 2 armies, not 20+ armies, AoS has like 28 armies.
HH is a dump truck full of special units and characters on top the regular units and there's been no indication, beyond paint schemes, there will be Units like; Tyrant Siegebreakers, Deathwing Companions, Golden Keshig, Dawnbreakers, etc...
This is literally Marines vs. Solar Auxilla.
Seeing how thick the book is, there's no room for a couple pages for basic units like the Land Raider or Drop Pods?
Yeah, because GW will NEVER release LI rules for Mechanicum, Sisters of Silences, Adeptus Custodes, Ruinstorm Daemons, Imperial Militia, etc. Nope, no chance. The game will forever just be two factions - Space Marine Legions and Solar Auxilia, and their Knight Household and Titan Legion allies. Nothing more, nothing less.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SamusDrake wrote: How much is the core book on its own? Is it direct only?
Formosa wrote: so with the things coming out and the costs now being around it has killed a lot of interest in my local area, people are saying they cost of entry is too high for how little you get, not sure I agree but this was always going to be an easy sell to me.
2 Things I'd say
a) The last half of this year or so has been honestly full of "that's too expensive for what it is" on almost everything I see. Food, fuel, models, even digital goods like PC video games are creeping up. This is all the "cost of living" impacting everything and raising prices faster than normal.
b) I good few people said the same about the AT game and yet it did darned well with an even more expensive starter box.
Personally I think sticker shock might hit a little heavier because
1) We just had the battleforces for Christmas so a lot of the most loyal are likely burned out from buying those.
2) We are in the Christmas run-up so people are also starting to budget for gifts which eats into money
3) We have had a prolonged lack of sale of the game and no real impression of models. Plus GW are releasing a LOT all at once to compensate.
My gut feeling is that the larger than old Epic scale models and 10+ years of tech improvement mean that once people start seeing, handling and playing or seeing games played with the models; it should pick up in popularity. Bolstered by any AT/AN fans jumping into the game to get more from the models they already own.
My view is the greatest issue is it being 30K not 40K, but otherwise I'm hopeful it will be a solid game with a decent fanbase.
.. now does anyone want to buy £200ish worth of skaven new in boxes off me so I can grab some LI? !
Annnddd now you're going the complete opposite direction, lmao
You're really not good at this and are missing the point, but whatever.
A large amount of what you posted has been released as PDFs for one.
Currently, and for the known future, it's Marines vs. Solar so everything should be in the main book. There aren't so many units that they couldn't have done this. You know this is true. Stop acting ignorant.
If you're going to toss in everything but the kitchen sink, then you should go whole hog and throw in all Xenos also.
In ThE MaGiCaL FuTuRe that you come from, when all armies have been released, I'll buy a book for each one.
There is *ZERO* reason that all Marine and Solar Units aren't in this book.
My gut feeling is that the larger than old Epic scale models and 10+ years of tech improvement mean that once people start seeing, handling and playing or seeing games played with the models; it should pick up in popularity. Bolstered by any AT/AN fans jumping into the game to get more from the models they already own.
100% agreed. People seeing the models in person drove a lot of interest in AT, and I definitely think it will do so again.
It's easy to think of the tiny old Epic models and think these new kits are just less of the same, however the tanks aren't that tiny anymore:
chaos0xomega wrote: Yeah, because GW will NEVER release LI rules for Mechanicum, Sisters of Silences, Adeptus Custodes, Ruinstorm Daemons, Imperial Militia, etc. Nope, no chance. The game will forever just be two factions - Space Marine Legions and Solar Auxilia, and their Knight Household and Titan Legion allies. Nothing more, nothing less.
That's not quite the rebuttal you think it is. The latter inclusion of Mechanicum, Custodes and the rest doesn't change the fact that basic units like Drop Pods probably should be in the core book for the armies that currently are in the game.
There is *ZERO* reason that all Marine and Solar Units aren't in this book.
The reason is obvious and has been discussed here before at length.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Given the Epic community's large variety of 3rd party and printable files for various units, it seems like GW is holding back rules until plastic kits are ready to release in the hopes that people will get the new rules and the new kits when they release instead of getting all the rules up front, printer goes brr, and not bother to buy the kits when they come out.
This is the main reason. The aim here isn't specifically to sell supplement books, if that was true then there wouldn't be any free digital downloads for games like KT, or no unit rules included in boxes for AT & Aeronautica kits.
With very few exceptions, GW's entire marketing approach since the Chapterhouse drama is to only reveal details if they have products ready to sell. Their goal here is to obfuscate the release schedule until a time that GW are ready to start unveiling each new Epic kit. If units such as Land Raiders or Stormbirds aren't due until say Summer 2024, there's very little incentive for GW to publish those rules now and encourage players to spend 9 months arranging their own proxies. The same applies to drop pods, which may have originally been intended to land(!) 3-6 months after the main game launch in August.
Eumerin wrote: I just realized - the price list that's circulating doesn't have any of the medium tanks like the Leman Russ. That's odd...
Can't release all at once, wallets can only take that much.
There's not really that much new stuff in the initial release. The titans, knights, terrain, and aircraft have all existed at this scale before now. If you ignore them and the direct-only stuff (which can be convenient, but is very much optional), you're looking at:
1 Combined Forces box (the starter)
3 Marine kits (infantry, transports, super-heavy tank)
2 Solar Auxilia kits (infantry, super-heavy tank)
It actually seems rather thin. Here's hoping they get the first wave of releases out nice and quick to bulk up the two core armies very quickly.
It would also suggest that buying 3000 points of troops (since iirc, that's being thrown around as the recommended point total) right at the start might not be such a good idea since both armies are *very* much missing key elements at this point.
That's not a valid argument, and makes literally no sense....lmao
Fine, you can run a 10 man squad of Terms instead of 20.
Guess what, they still cost 40% less in points in LI which still means you need more units to fill the 3k list which means you still need to buy more.
We've seen items that suggest that there are ways to modify the troops that are available in detachments. There are things that suggest that it might be possible to attach other kinds of troops - terminators, for instance - to detachments.
In short, your understanding of the way that units are built in LI might be flawed.
That's not a valid argument, and makes literally no sense....lmao
Fine, you can run a 10 man squad of Terms instead of 20.
Guess what, they still cost 40% less in points in LI which still means you need more units to fill the 3k list which means you still need to buy more.
We've seen items that suggest that there are ways to modify the troops that are available in detachments. There are things that suggest that it might be possible to attach other kinds of troops - terminators, for instance - to detachments.
In short, your understanding of the way that units are built in LI might be flawed.
Yet, that doesn't matter.
5 Thunderhawk Detatchments (10 Thunderhawks) in LI cost 1400 points
7 Thunderhawks in NetEA cost 1400 points
6 Thunderhawks in EpicAU cost 1500 points
You will need *more* units, of any type, in LI than you would in NetEA (or comparable) and therefore you will need to buy more to fill out slots in LI.
If the goal is 3000 points for an army, you will need to BUY MORE to fill out an LI list.
In short, your understanding of math might be flawed.
Now LI us firmly on the way I have a question about flyers.
If I wanted to focus on aircraft what is the best way to do it?
I understand for Space Marine Legions there is a formation called 'Legion Aerial Assault' which allows for more aircraft than a normal/balanced formation like a Demi-Company. This was mentioned in a previous WHC article earlier in the year.
What about the Solar Auxilia? The only way I have seen aircraft included was as a single optional addition to a Solar Auxilia Sub Cohort, or Armoured Company. Again from a WHC article.
Any news or information on other detachments or formations?
I'm looking at LI as I got into AI when it was around so I have some flyers, more Aircraft suitable for use with the Solar Auxilia than the Legions. Thought a few flyers might give me a jump start on a force but I'm still unsure. Tried to keep any excitement levels in check until I knew LI was about to be launched and also until I knew the price structure.
If I wanted to focus on aircraft what is the best way to do it?
I understand for Space Marine Legions there is a formation called 'Legion Aerial Assault' which allows for more aircraft than a normal/balanced formation like a Demi-Company. This was mentioned in a previous WHC article earlier in the year.
What about the Solar Auxilia? The only way I have seen aircraft included was as a single optional addition to a Solar Auxilia Sub Cohort, or Armoured Company. Again from a WHC article.
Any news or information on other detachments or formations?
I'm looking at LI as I got into AI when it was around so I have some flyers, more Aircraft suitable for use with the Solar Auxilia than the Legions. Thought a few flyers might give me a jump start on a force but I'm still unsure. Tried to keep any excitement levels in check until I knew LI was about to be launched and also until I knew the price structure.
From leaks:
Spoiler:
As far as we know there isn't a aircraft specialized formation for SA. There have been leaks for the SA parts of the rulebook before and while those might have changed or could have been incomplete they showed three SA formation. You can find the leaks here The Solar Auxilia Sub Cohort and Armoured Company both only have a single air-support slot as you said but there is one more formation that has two slots for aircraft in the Pioneer Company.
But that one has two bastions as compulsory detachments and as the Tarantulas and Rapiers aren't available yet you won't actually have any bastion units so not really helpful in your case
If I wanted to focus on aircraft what is the best way to do it?
I understand for Space Marine Legions there is a formation called 'Legion Aerial Assault' which allows for more aircraft than a normal/balanced formation like a Demi-Company. This was mentioned in a previous WHC article earlier in the year.
What about the Solar Auxilia? The only way I have seen aircraft included was as a single optional addition to a Solar Auxilia Sub Cohort, or Armoured Company. Again from a WHC article.
Any news or information on other detachments or formations?
I'm looking at LI as I got into AI when it was around so I have some flyers, more Aircraft suitable for use with the Solar Auxilia than the Legions. Thought a few flyers might give me a jump start on a force but I'm still unsure. Tried to keep any excitement levels in check until I knew LI was about to be launched and also until I knew the price structure.
From leaks:
Spoiler:
As far as we know there isn't a aircraft specialized formation for SA. There have been leaks for the SA parts of the rulebook before and while those might have changed or could have been incomplete they showed three SA formation. You can find the leaks here The Solar Auxilia Sub Cohort and Armoured Company both only have a single air-support slot as you said but there is one more formation that has two slots for aircraft in the Pioneer Company.
But that one has two bastions as compulsory detachments and as the Tarantulas and Rapiers aren't available yet you won't actually have any bastion units so not really helpful in your case
Thank you very much for the info! I have some things to think about now.
I like the look of the Pioneer Company.
If the size of that Cohort composition is 1500pts then 2 of those would be the standard 3000pt game. Means I could have 4 Aircraft slots which is nice as I have 4 different types of SA flyers, but yes you're right I'd have to wait until the rapiers and tarantulas are available.
Optional detachment slots not used: 2x Support slots, 1x Core slot, 2x Transports slots assuming the 3x Arvus Lighters are a single detachment
Total - 489pts
Armoured Company:
Compulsory Detachments - 755pts
Super Heavy Tanks (Baneblades) - 100pts -- +1 Baneblade - 90pts, Tank Commander - 10pts
Leman Russ Squadron - 175pts -- +2 Tanks - 85pts
Malcador Squadron - 165pts -- +2 Tanks - 130pts
Optional Detachments - 160pts
Thunderbolt - 80pts -- +1 Thunderbolt - 80pts
Optional detachment slots not used: 1x Heavy Armour slots, 2x Battle Tank slots
Total - 915pts
There is also one more bit I found interesting, there actually are paid weapon upgrades. If the Thunderbolt swaps its quad autocannon for an avenger bolt cannon it costs +3pts. So they are actually fine with weapon options costing points they just choose not to use that on anything else we have seen until now
The Baneblade price does seem a bit high, I think if a retailer does 20% off that might bring it down but the problem for GW here is that even if you don't have a 3D printer you can get them from Etsy for £6-7 each or a proxy from Vanguard for a similar price. £20 for 2 tanks would have felt a lot more reasonable.
You’ll be able to get it off eBay for cheap, many peeps will be buying 2+ boxes
Yes right - this happened with AoD too, I would be surprised if you have to pay more than £10 for a rulebook within a couple of weeks of release as the 2nd hand market will be flooded with them.
You’ll be able to get it off eBay for cheap, many peeps will be buying 2+ boxes
Yes right - this happened with AoD too, I would be surprised if you have to pay more than £10 for a rulebook within a couple of weeks of release as the 2nd hand market will be flooded with them.
Cheers, I'll keep my eye on it.
Not sure if this is a good sign going forward as the Horus Heresy rulebook has been avaliable from indies from day one and with discount. The only other GW game(to my knowledge) that has a direct-only rule book is Aeronautica. The previous edition rulebook for HH was also direct only(from FW) and that was mostly out of sight, out of mind.
I can only assume this is a consequence of reprinting the core book, if that was the reason for the delay. Personally, Legions is shaping up to be an expensive exercise as I'm already looking at two books just to field a Knight army and I've already spent as much for them in Titanicus. If there's WhiteDwarf rules for Legios and Houses I might reconsider...
But for now I'll just treat myself to some of the infantry models for use in Horizon Wars and as Titan-Hunters(Heavy Sentials or Marine Devastator squads) in Titanicus, and leave Legions for another time. Hopefully we might see the odd Solar unit pop up in Titanicus, probably the Baneblade variants.
Pacific wrote: The Baneblade price does seem a bit high, I think if a retailer does 20% off that might bring it down but the problem for GW here is that even if you don't have a 3D printer you can get them from Etsy for £6-7 each or a proxy from Vanguard for a similar price. £20 for 2 tanks would have felt a lot more reasonable.
.
I was doing some comparing last night and vanguard seems to be around €3 per vehicle (trying to factor in postage and fee costs per tank as well) and Gw are anything from €4 to €10 without FLGS discount. Bigger vehicles are €20, €40 (without discount again). But I know I don't end up with any import fees with GW.
Its not the best priced game, but its not bad for modern GW. Rhinos in a box of 10 are actually not to bad at €4 each. I think the real issue with pricing comes with everything having the same set price but including less tanks per set. (6 land raiders per box sucks!)
The baneblades are overpriced but they are probably expecting people to only pic up 1-3 sets each at most. They probably didn't factor in idiots like me that want to buy things in 10-100s for the old rules.
I'm just going to stick to having 'official' models for the main portion of a marine force, I'll continue to use vanguard for the bulk of my big game forces.
I just hope that with their drip feed approach to releasing this game (not counting the rush to get the bulk of the release out soon after due to the delay) that we will see some additional discounted sets in the future to really bulk out collections for bigger games. We know big knight and titan sets are coming, so hopefully next year we will see a marine battleforce or some discounted 100 tank bundles!
(I'd laugh, but imagine after a couple of years of people collecting and having big collections GW then releases Epic Apocalypse rules. I'd have to laugh, but I'd not put it past them )
VAYASEN wrote: Do we think this will be it for releases up to Xmas or do we think anything else will come out prior to the 2th Dec?
For Legions, probably not. GW tend to keep releases for the same system around a month apart so that people's wallets have a chance to recover. I'd expect the next LI wave in January.
There should still be time for other GW releases before xmas though, including Necrons and maybe Kill Team.
VAYASEN wrote: Do we think this will be it for releases up to Xmas or do we think anything else will come out prior to the 2th Dec?
For Legions, probably not. GW tend to keep releases for the same system around a month apart so that people's wallets have a chance to recover. I'd expect the next LI wave in January.
There should still be time for other GW releases before xmas though, including Necrons and maybe Kill Team.
Sorry, yes I mean LI specifically.
Just trying to work out what to allocate money to prior to Xmas and more stuff coming would 'complicate' that
Think that is a regretful nope from me. Really wanted to get knto this, but those prices are just too high to justify, especially for a game that is going to be hard to get an opponent here in the remote West of Ireland.
Doesn't bode well for Warhammer The Old World, if these are the sort of prices they are putting in their nostalgic games.
I think Legions Imperials isn't going to sell to well, and GW will take this to mean there is no market for these sort of games, when infat there is... just not at unreasonable prices.
stonehorse wrote: I think Legions Imperials isn't going to sell to well, and GW will take this to mean there is no market for these sort of games, when infat there is... just not at unreasonable prices.
I'm going to predict it'll sell out initially as all the rabid weirdos buy up, then restock and stagnate.
Happy to be proven wrong, but that's my guess.
I'll probably maybe buy a starter set and some Baneblades and leave it there.
The AI prices were high but kinda bearable in the sense you only needed a couple of boxes to make a reasonable squadron.
Two people signed up for the starter at the FLGS which is a record low for any new line, despite owner trying to drum up interest with promises of a store campaign
I imagine I'd have a decent sized army given I have a giant pile of Imperial aircraft from AI and 2 Reavers and 2 Warhounds from AT.... but not sure that's going to be a "fun" army to play with, Epic for me has always been about the tanks, dreadnoughts, bikes, buggies, battlewagons, seems a shame to do an Epic army that doesn't feature those things heavily.
I'm sure there are plenty of people like me that will have 900 pts of titans and knights already.
A starter set of AI and a thunderhawk have given me 635 pts of planes.
Starter set marines & Astartes infantry set comes to what? 600-650 pts?
That's me at 2,100 pts or so off the core box and 1 of the most basic boxes you can get.
I also easily have another 900 pts of titans and knights, starter Solar Aux and AI imperial navy fighters as the beginnings of a 2nd army.
I also have my AT terrain ready to go.
I'm already most of the way there, I'm already invested and I expect lots of people are thinking the same.
At this point, to be able to field those 900 points of titans and knights you will have to field other 2700 points of either marines or auxilia, as you are limited to 25% in allies
I imagine I'd have a decent sized army given I have a giant pile of Imperial aircraft from AI and 2 Reavers and 2 Warhounds from AT.... but not sure that's going to be a "fun" army to play with, Epic for me has always been about the tanks, dreadnoughts, bikes, buggies, battlewagons, seems a shame to do an Epic army that doesn't feature those things heavily.
I'm sure there are plenty of people like me that will have 900 pts of titans and knights already.
A starter set of AI and a thunderhawk have given me 635 pts of planes.
Starter set marines & Astartes infantry set comes to what? 600-650 pts?
That's me at 2,100 pts or so off the core box and 1 of the most basic boxes you can get.
I also easily have another 900 pts of titans and knights, starter Solar Aux and AI imperial navy fighters as the beginnings of a 2nd army.
I also have my AT terrain ready to go.
I'm already most of the way there, I'm already invested and I expect lots of people are thinking the same.
At this point, to be able to field those 900 points of titans and knights you will have to field other 2700 points of either marines or auxilia, as you are limited to 25% in allies
Vorian wrote: I'm sure there are plenty of people like me that will have 900 pts of titans and knights already.
A starter set of AI and a thunderhawk have given me 635 pts of planes.
I'm in the same position. Picked up a half price AI starter set years ago plus a Thunderhawk to use as a centrepiece with my AT terrain.
The LI starter is just over 1000pts of infantry and tanks. If you ignore or house-rule the Primary Army limits (my local club is gonna adjust it to max 30% titans, 70% anything else) a lot of people will already be able to put playable armies on a table quite quickly.
Yeah, I don't think this'll do too badly. I'm willing to bet a good chunk of current Titanicus players will get into LI as well. Add in the older players and pile of shame builders who'll just stash the boxes in shrink to gather dust, and it should be enought to keep things going.
I'm likely to buy a good pile on release myself...
Nice to see a painting presenter who isn't just a pair of floating hands again. I read the white dwarf battle report last night and it's definitely a warhammer game, 90% casualties and all. Still, I'm on board, will make for very cool big battle scenes even if the gameplay is a little rote
Well, when the primary armies in the game "shall know no fear" and sometimes have special rules like "stubborn", you end up with extremely high casualties because its a fight to the death and neither side will concede defeat until their objectives are accomplished.
If people don't buy because of the prospect of 3000pts being too much/too expensive, that particular initiative by whoever decided that in sales/marketing (because it does have the whiff of that) will have backfired.
Really need to see a game in action to find out how well it scales, and if 2000pts (and therefore a lower buy-in price) gives enough meat in a game.
Pacific wrote: If people don't buy because of the prospect of 3000pts being too much/too expensive, that particular initiative by whoever decided that in sales/marketing (because it does have the whiff of that) will have backfired.
Really need to see a game in action to find out how well it scales, and if 2000pts (and therefore a lower buy-in price) gives enough meat in a game.
Honestly, looking at images from the last White Dwarf Battle Report, 3,000pts pretty much fills the 4x5 board. I should think a 2,000pts game would be more than enough, especially for smaller board sizes.
Edit: I'd say that the LI box, an expansion box or two + any Titans you have would be enough to get you into some decent games
chaos0xomega wrote: Well, when the primary armies in the game "shall know no fear" and sometimes have special rules like "stubborn", you end up with extremely high casualties because its a fight to the death and neither side will concede defeat until their objectives are accomplished.
seems to be a thing in current game design, have armies die on the table and not run off due to any sort of realistic morale effect.
still its Warhammer, you know what you are getting as you walk through the door, my primary hope is that there is enough detail to allow smaller games to be interesting and that the special rules scale downwards as well as upwards, while still being streamlined enough larger games work nicely
Pacific wrote: If people don't buy because of the prospect of 3000pts being too much/too expensive, that particular initiative by whoever decided that in sales/marketing (because it does have the whiff of that) will have backfired.
Really need to see a game in action to find out how well it scales, and if 2000pts (and therefore a lower buy-in price) gives enough meat in a game.
Honestly, looking at images from the last White Dwarf Battle Report, 3,000pts pretty much fills the 4x5 board. I should think a 2,000pts game would be more than enough, especially for smaller board sizes.
Edit: I'd say that the LI box, an expansion box or two + any Titans you have would be enough to get you into some decent games
I will forever insist that the 4x5 is a typo and its meant to be played on a 4x6. As I will never play this game competitively or in a formal setting, ever (famous last words) I will be playing on a 4x6 going forward (and I recommend y'all do the same too) so that the table is that much less crowded.
Pacific wrote: If people don't buy because of the prospect of 3000pts being too much/too expensive, that particular initiative by whoever decided that in sales/marketing (because it does have the whiff of that) will have backfired.
Really need to see a game in action to find out how well it scales, and if 2000pts (and therefore a lower buy-in price) gives enough meat in a game.
Honestly, looking at images from the last White Dwarf Battle Report, 3,000pts pretty much fills the 4x5 board. I should think a 2,000pts game would be more than enough, especially for smaller board sizes.
Edit: I'd say that the LI box, an expansion box or two + any Titans you have would be enough to get you into some decent games
I will forever insist that the 4x5 is a typo and its meant to be played on a 4x6. As I will never play this game competitively or in a formal setting, ever (famous last words) I will be playing on a 4x6 going forward (and I recommend y'all do the same too) so that the table is that much less crowded.
chaos0xomega wrote: Well, when the primary armies in the game "shall know no fear" and sometimes have special rules like "stubborn", you end up with extremely high casualties because its a fight to the death and neither side will concede defeat until their objectives are accomplished.
seems to be a thing in current game design, have armies die on the table and not run off due to any sort of realistic morale effect.
still its Warhammer, you know what you are getting as you walk through the door, my primary hope is that there is enough detail to allow smaller games to be interesting and that the special rules scale downwards as well as upwards, while still being streamlined enough larger games work nicely
Yeah, its a conscious game design choice in most cases to try to avoid feelsbad. Its not unique to the warhams, most of the big miniature wargames on the market suffer from unreasonably high casualty rates (though admittedly I think warhams push the envelope), with only those niche games that strive towards some degree of historical verisimilitude having more realistic outcomes. The main reason is that players don't like games ending with 80% of their army still on table, it results in "man this is unrealistic, most of my army is still here ready to go, if this went a few more turns I would have wrecked you!". Its basically the same reason why many of the more popular games reduce or eliminate the impact of morale and psychology on the game, etc. because players don't like losing control of their dudes and having them run away from the table. The general "market feedback" is that players want full control of their dudes, and want their games to end when a significant portion of their dudes are dead, so thats what GW and other likeminded publishers give them.
Pacific wrote: If people don't buy because of the prospect of 3000pts being too much/too expensive, that particular initiative by whoever decided that in sales/marketing (because it does have the whiff of that) will have backfired.
Really need to see a game in action to find out how well it scales, and if 2000pts (and therefore a lower buy-in price) gives enough meat in a game.
Honestly, looking at images from the last White Dwarf Battle Report, 3,000pts pretty much fills the 4x5 board. I should think a 2,000pts game would be more than enough, especially for smaller board sizes.
Edit: I'd say that the LI box, an expansion box or two + any Titans you have would be enough to get you into some decent games
I will forever insist that the 4x5 is a typo and its meant to be played on a 4x6. As I will never play this game competitively or in a formal setting, ever (famous last words) I will be playing on a 4x6 going forward (and I recommend y'all do the same too) so that the table is that much less crowded.
Ha, go classic for Epic. 8x4 or nothing!
I wish, but my folding table at home is only 6x4, don't think anyone makes them in 8x4. Likewise most of the local stores have sized and built their tables to 6x4 over the years, theres not much opportunity to play 8x4.
Huh, havent seen that page with auxilia lasrifle tercio leak until now - those auxilia infantry detachments can be huge - 4 bases to begin and up to 6 x 2 base upgrades - so a maximum detachment of 16 infantry bases? That`s a lot compared to what was already previeved about tank detachments.
If people buy whole armies of 2000-3000 points at 40k or Horus Heresy, they will be fine with LI.
Even with old editions of Epic, the current format goes between 2500 - 3000 points : and it's a whole lot of models as well. I find it odd some guys here makes it look like LI is "bad" on that side and...oh wait, they're old Epic players. My bad, it makes sense.
Besides, if it was just a question of price, piles of shame and unfinished projects would never exist. It's still quite a task (and easy to lose motivation) to try to build and paint a 3000 points army all at once, instead of building your collection gradually through months. I think most people won't try to play a 3000 points game right from the start, but will rather begin at a humbler level.
Sarouan wrote: If people buy whole armies of 2000-3000 points at 40k or Horus Heresy, they will be fine with LI.
Even with old editions of Epic, the current format goes between 2500 - 3000 points : and it's a whole lot of models as well. I find it odd some guys here makes it look like LI is "bad" on that side and...oh wait, they're old Epic players. My bad, it makes sense.
Besides, if it was just a question of price, piles of shame and unfinished projects would never exist. It's still quite a task (and easy to lose motivation) to try to build and paint a 3000 points army all at once, instead of building your collection gradually through months. I think most people won't try to play a 3000 points game right from the start, but will rather begin at a humbler level.
Just like I was trying to explain to Eumerin, what you are thinking isn't what reality is going to be by the numbers.
People are going to have to buy *a lot* more to fill out that 3k list in LI compared to previous and/or Net editions of the game.
Net EA - Terminator Detachment - 4 Stands (20 bodies) - 300pts
You can run fully 6 times the amount in LI, for the points, that you can in the other systems. Then factor in the infantry box is figured to only have 10 Terminators, like the launch box, and you see how much money that actually is to build out to 3k. Until GW barfs out an: " OOPS! All Terminators! " box...
It doesn't matter how they are attached, detached, special ruled, etc... points are points and lower points means more bodies. In the case of LI, a hell of a lot more bodies.
We've seen two sample armies from the battle report. And people here have already analyzed them and figured out how many boxes you'll need for each of the armies.
zedmeister wrote:Yeah, I don't think this'll do too badly. I'm willing to bet a good chunk of current Titanicus players will get into LI as well. Add in the older players and pile of shame builders who'll just stash the boxes in shrink to gather dust, and it should be enought to keep things going.
I'm likely to buy a good pile on release myself...
yeah this will do fine. I'm looking forward to picking a load of stuff up even with no interest in the game. I suspect there is at least 3 others like me (3rd Edition players unite!). I'm more than happy to know it will sell well, as it means plenty on the 2nd hand market in later years too.
Pacific wrote:If people don't buy because of the prospect of 3000pts being too much/too expensive, that particular initiative by whoever decided that in sales/marketing (because it does have the whiff of that) will have backfired.
Really need to see a game in action to find out how well it scales, and if 2000pts (and therefore a lower buy-in price) gives enough meat in a game.
Why is there so much obsession with it having to be 3000pts for games? If the buy in price is too high, lower the pts of your early games until you've brought up a whole bunch of stuff over time. You have plenty of time to save up again after all, most of this will be out of stock 9/12 months of every year.
Why does it really matter what GW suggest the points value to be, its always going to be in their benefit!
zedmeister wrote:
Ha, go classic for Epic. 8x4 or nothing!
I'm going for 3 sets of 6x4 until I can finally refloor the gaming room, then I intend to have a purpose built 8x4 with the old 6x4s for extending it for big games.
I wanted a 8x6 really, but apparently using snooker cues to reach the middle of the table was too much hassle for some people in my group! I did suggest having a trap door in the Center of the table with a little tunnel running underneath (like on model railways) but apparently 52 miniatures pick up is also apparently not a good suggestion.
It doesn't matter how they are attached, detached, special ruled, etc... points are points and lower points means more bodies. In the case of LI, a hell of a lot more bodies.
Because you just took terminators here as to prove your point. But the way they act and play in these different game systems aren't the same, though - so of course, their cost isn't calculated the same either depending on the impact they have in game.
The thing is, your army isn't made of terminators only : it's just a (small) part of it. You can't just take one detachment out of its context and say "thus in LI, it's not the same !" - of course, the rules are different and the way lists are built aren't the same.
But the end goal, having a "full size army playable at the targeted 3000 points" is the same : and it's never meant to be achieved in just one take. Which means that as in older editions of Epic your collection in LI is more intended to be built gradually. So most people will do as all previous players of older editions Epic did when the game was supported officially and started from scratch ; they'll do it piece after piece, and play with what they have at the moment - not instantly playing with "everything they should have at the end goal".
The price argument has always been a fallacy used by fans of other game systems to "prove" their superiority on the other game they feel like a threat. It was always - and will always be - a matter of perspective and how you build your own collection on the long run.
If the buy in price is too high, lower the pts of your early games until you've brought up a whole bunch of stuff over time.
Just as importantly, imo, many of the backbone units of the armies won't be available - either separately, or at all - when the game launches. So there's good reason not to race to 3000 points. Sure, you can get more boxes of infantry or super-heavy tanks. But if you want almost anything else, you're going to have to wait.
We've seen two sample armies from the battle report. And people here have already analyzed them and figured out how many boxes you'll need for each of the armies.
GW showed some of the detachment cards, there's a pastebin leak for stuff they didn't, we KNOW the points.
It's also not just "people here" as it's the people all over that still play these systems and have kept them alive to the point GW brought it back.
I guess some people just can't understand:
System 1) Unit A costs 300 points for 4 stands
-
System 2) Unit A costs 50 points for 4 stands
Therefore you can take 24 stands for the same price in System 2.
Oh by the way, it's $50 for every 2 stands so Unit A in one system costs $100 but in the other it costs $600.
[Edit for Sarouan]
As I've already pointed out LI runs, on average, 40% cheaper in points per unit/detachment, so it doesn't matter if the example is Thunderhawks or Terminators, Tanks, Super-Heavies, or Tacticals.
We've seen two sample armies from the battle report. And people here have already analyzed them and figured out how many boxes you'll need for each of the armies.
IIRC the Blood Angels army required 6 boxes worth of infantry to fully field out the list, drop pods, vehicles, and other stuff notwithstanding.
Also, point system is just a way to build your army and have a feeling of "balance". The total played is just a question of something both players agree on. Be it 500 or 3000, it doesn't really matter what number it is. Arguing about what "end games armies are worth in €" was never the point : the question is more "do I really want to achieve that goal to the end ?". Because it will still be a whole lot of miniatures to build and paint, that's pretty much the point of all "Epic scale" games. Even printing hundred of them for cheaper still won't make it less time sinking to build and paint everything to look great on the battlefield, mind you. And that's the real difference in a project between it being "finished" or left on the road : motivation, not just "saving money".
Besides, let's just add the thing about multiple models on a single base : players can just choose to put less to "spare them". That's what they did with older editions of Epic for various reasons (including when official support ended and people had a "limited supply" of infantry miniatures to their disposal, but money was also a valid one). Why do you think suddenly it would be different with LI, hm ? Suddenly, "problem" with infantry boxes seem much less of a hassle...
We've seen two sample armies from the battle report. And people here have already analyzed them and figured out how many boxes you'll need for each of the armies.
IIRC the Blood Angels army required 6 boxes worth of infantry to fully field out the list, drop pods, vehicles, and other stuff notwithstanding.
Yup. But iirc the Death Guard army required considerably less.
As I've already pointed out LI runs, on average, 40% cheaper in points per unit/detachment, so it doesn't matter if the example is Thunderhawks or Terminators, Tanks, Super-Heavies, or Tacticals.
It just means a 3000 points of LI is equivalent to a 5000-6000 points of old edition of Epic, that's all. And it really doesn't matter in the end !
As I've already pointed out LI runs, on average, 40% cheaper in points per unit/detachment, so it doesn't matter if the example is Thunderhawks or Terminators, Tanks, Super-Heavies, or Tacticals.
It just means a 3000 points of LI is equivalent to a 5000-6000 points of old edition of Epic, that's all. And it really doesn't matter in the end !
Sure, believe what you want and play what you love. It still won't change anything, and people will play with LI the exact same way they did with older editions of Epic : at their pace, within their budget. Never from silly theories made up on the internet by people who want to prove a point.
As I've already pointed out LI runs, on average, 40% cheaper in points per unit/detachment, so it doesn't matter if the example is Thunderhawks or Terminators, Tanks, Super-Heavies, or Tacticals.
It just means a 3000 points of LI is equivalent to a 5000-6000 points of old edition of Epic, that's all. And it really doesn't matter in the end !
The point.
Your head.
Once again, we've seen two sample armies, and people have figured out how many boxes were needed for both armies. I'm not really sure what you believe you're going to add to that.
Meanwhile I'm over here thinking that lower points per unit means more models on the table and thus even more chance to field a wider variety of models in a game format that not only sports a LOT of unit variation once it gets going; but also massive point sinks of titans. So the more units you can field the more titans you can field alongside those units; which means proper epic battles!
Majority of players don't play for the numbers. They play for other reasons much more enjoyable than that...and they don't care to know if you believe you're right or not.
LI will be fine.
Meanwhile I'm over here thinking that lower points per unit means more models on the table and thus even more chance to field a wider variety of models in a game format that not only sports a LOT of unit variation once it gets going; but also massive point sinks of titans. So the more units you can field the more titans you can field alongside those units; which means proper epic battles!
Yes, that's pretty much the objective here - it reminds me when we moved from 40k 2nd edition to 3rd, where armies were drastically "bigger" for the same amount of points (they did the same with Battle too). And it should still look good with stands of 3 infantry models instead of 5 or 2 / 1 bike instead of 3 / 2...while allowing you to bring more detachments from just one box. That old trick will still be used, no matter the edition and what "weird guys on the internet" will say !
I will forever insist that the 4x5 is a typo and its meant to be played on a 4x6. As I will never play this game competitively or in a formal setting, ever (famous last words) I will be playing on a 4x6 going forward (and I recommend y'all do the same too) so that the table is that much less crowded.
That will (if its properly playtested) affect the balance of the units.
To be fair re: WD lists, in older editions you also had mixed unit boxes so skew lists required inefficient purchases of many multiples of the same box if you only needed a small part of it.
We've seen two sample armies from the battle report. And people here have already analyzed them and figured out how many boxes you'll need for each of the armies.
IIRC the Blood Angels army required 6 boxes worth of infantry to fully field out the list, drop pods, vehicles, and other stuff notwithstanding.
Yup. But iirc the Death Guard army required considerably less.
The Death Guard component was less than a box if I recall, but when you added in the EC component it became 3 boxes (not including the Solar Auxilia stuff).
I will forever insist that the 4x5 is a typo and its meant to be played on a 4x6. As I will never play this game competitively or in a formal setting, ever (famous last words) I will be playing on a 4x6 going forward (and I recommend y'all do the same too) so that the table is that much less crowded.
(if its properly playtested)
That if is doing some heavy lifting in this sentence
That if is doing some heavy lifting in this sentence
Let me tell you a secret : your loving older edition of Epic was the same.
I've never played any version of Epic, so... no?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Johanxp wrote: Any suggestion about where to read a real rules review when available - and not a simple unboxing presented as a review?
Goonhammer seems to usually do a decent job at it (provided they do review LI, which I assume they will), though I find they often don't go into the level of depth I'm looking for they usually at least give you enough to wrap your head around it.
Yes that's what I'm really hoping to see, and perhaps by someone that has experience of previous Epic games as well so they can compare and contrast the new game.
leopard wrote: Those tiles seem a seriously expensive way to buy something you could probably make in an afternoon or weekend.
I sort of see the "this is faster" appeal but seriously, some thin MDF or plywood, a bit of card and some filler and you are basically there.
and then its also easier to have ones to transition into more open ground, grass, wasteland, Martian rock, deserts, whatever
How to get some MDF in the UK cut to 12" squares though? I had a look and loads of places seem to have a minimum order quantity of much higher than a game table needs?
leopard wrote: Those tiles seem a seriously expensive way to buy something you could probably make in an afternoon or weekend.
I sort of see the "this is faster" appeal but seriously, some thin MDF or plywood, a bit of card and some filler and you are basically there.
and then its also easier to have ones to transition into more open ground, grass, wasteland, Martian rock, deserts, whatever
How to get some MDF in the UK cut to 12" squares though? I had a look and loads of places seem to have a minimum order quantity of much higher than a game table needs?
Here in Belgium you can buy a 3mm thick 122x61cm MDF panel for a few euros and have it cut to specific dimensions at no extra cost. Maybe worth checking with your local DIY store if they offer similar product and service.
leopard wrote: Those tiles seem a seriously expensive way to buy something you could probably make in an afternoon or weekend.
I sort of see the "this is faster" appeal but seriously, some thin MDF or plywood, a bit of card and some filler and you are basically there.
and then its also easier to have ones to transition into more open ground, grass, wasteland, Martian rock, deserts, whatever
How to get some MDF in the UK cut to 12" squares though? I had a look and loads of places seem to have a minimum order quantity of much higher than a game table needs?
visit one of the DIY barns, places like B&Q will sell you an 8x4 sheet and cut it for you, usually a few cuts free and not too much for more? also a lot cheaper than anything bought for "gaming"
if needed can stick insulation foam to it, likely better just with a bit of filler and sanding (for plywood, MDF won't need it) and then adding pavements with 1mm card or similar, maybe lightly scored with a pen. paint it, prime & emulsion maybe, add any markings desired with a pen or whatever, bit of light sponging and you will have a tables worth of tiles and then spares.
not needed this in a few years but worked perfectly a few years back.
failing that a circular saw, a straight batton as a guide and a couple of clamps works nicely
leopard wrote: Those tiles seem a seriously expensive way to buy something you could probably make in an afternoon or weekend.
I sort of see the "this is faster" appeal but seriously, some thin MDF or plywood, a bit of card and some filler and you are basically there.
and then its also easier to have ones to transition into more open ground, grass, wasteland, Martian rock, deserts, whatever
How to get some MDF in the UK cut to 12" squares though? I had a look and loads of places seem to have a minimum order quantity of much higher than a game table needs?
There is no hardware store or woodworking store that sells flat wood with a saw? Here a store like that would be closed.
I have been able to get a box full of square cut to sizes all compatible with tables for like $100total.
Got answers fast there, was surprised if there wasn’t anywhere.
leopard wrote: Those tiles seem a seriously expensive way to buy something you could probably make in an afternoon or weekend.
I sort of see the "this is faster" appeal but seriously, some thin MDF or plywood, a bit of card and some filler and you are basically there.
and then its also easier to have ones to transition into more open ground, grass, wasteland, Martian rock, deserts, whatever
How to get some MDF in the UK cut to 12" squares though? I had a look and loads of places seem to have a minimum order quantity of much higher than a game table needs?
There is no hardware store or woodworking store that sells flat wood with a saw? Here a store like that would be closed.
I have been able to get a box full of square cut to sizes all compatible with tables for like $100total.
failing that if there is a model railway club nearby it could be worth asking them if its something they could source for a reasonable price.
heck even a normal jigsaw with a suitable guide can cut straight.
otherwise maybe a wood yard or timber merchant may have a saw and may be able to flog you some offcuts sawn to suitable sizes.
one thing thats worth a look is some self-adhesive felt, or felt you can glue to the bottom - stops them sliding round so much
leopard wrote: Those tiles seem a seriously expensive way to buy something you could probably make in an afternoon or weekend.
I sort of see the "this is faster" appeal but seriously, some thin MDF or plywood, a bit of card and some filler and you are basically there.
and then its also easier to have ones to transition into more open ground, grass, wasteland, Martian rock, deserts, whatever
How to get some MDF in the UK cut to 12" squares though? I had a look and loads of places seem to have a minimum order quantity of much higher than a game table needs?
There is no hardware store or woodworking store that sells flat wood with a saw? Here a store like that would be closed.
I have been able to get a box full of square cut to sizes all compatible with tables for like $100total.
failing that if there is a model railway club nearby it could be worth asking them if its something they could source for a reasonable price.
heck even a normal jigsaw with a suitable guide can cut straight.
otherwise maybe a wood yard or timber merchant may have a saw and may be able to flog you some offcuts sawn to suitable sizes.
one thing thats worth a look is some self-adhesive felt, or felt you can glue to the bottom - stops them sliding round so much
Black magic craft on YouTube has been working with rubber, that would be perfect for city tiles and even rolls up.
You can also use worbla, if you want something that is easy to work with a durable. But not as cheep and needs a heat gun of 100+ degrees. Be careful!
Was there every information about knight's weaponry shown? Their stats if correct seem pretty good across the board. Also based on one of the warcom articles, I'm suspect if the household box comes out it will have its own formation like the starter box.
I had checked google and everyone i tried had a min order price of much higher.
that site dosnt though...can do a 6x4 table(24 tiles) for 65 quid, not bad. Still sounds like a fair bit of work to do on it though after.
Thanks for the link, bookmarked
The gwLI tiles look to have one major flaw imo, one would be stuck with all roads being perpendicular to the board edges. Being able to have the road setup/grid offset on 45 degrees to the board edge, think a # mark going to an X i feel lets one have a downtown core without the whole board needing to be urban like the gw ones. The leaked white dwarf battle report pics showed how dense a 4x5 unbroken urban landscape can be.
Spoiler:
The legions ones, you have corners but not way to really make dead ends that aren't a board edge. Mdf if done the same way would likely have same problem.
I had checked google and everyone i tried had a min order price of much higher.
that site dosnt though...can do a 6x4 table(24 tiles) for 65 quid, not bad. Still sounds like a fair bit of work to do on it though after.
Thanks for the link, bookmarked
A lot of work, this is why people to pay more for plastic game boards or mats. The thing that always got me was warping, even thick mfd that ends up weighting a ton warps unless you start making brackets for it. Thin stuff would be all over the place in weeks.
^Yes. I made the mistake when I was younger of using 1ft square tiles of cork that I painted with a textured sand paint for a 6ft X 4ft table. Even though the cork was porous and could breathe, the corner of every tile warped upwards. The cork was really thick too.
Anyway, eventually I made another board. I used 3 panels of MDF that were 4ft X 2ft and about almost an inch thick, or about 2.4cm. Meant I could have all 3 together for a 6ft X 4ft board or even 2 together for a 4ft X 4ft board. Spray painted them and they held, haven't warped yet but storage is also important to help prevent that.
kodos wrote: Plywood, the answer is plywood (5 layers)
Hehe this man knows! Although if you can afford the upgrade then go Marine Ply. It's waterproof, means it'll take all kinds of paint and also drink spillages
It only just occurred to me, but because of the Allies rules (70% must come from primary and up to 30% allies), does that mean the starter set won't actually assemble into a single army?
You get 400~500pts of Marines, 400~500pts of Solar Auxilia, and 400-500pts of Titans.... so the biggest single army that can be made is only about 700-ish points. Or am I missing something?
Yup. But like most starter sets, it’s a Vs affair at heart. But also means it’s, theoretically, easier to lean Marines or Auxilia, using the rest as Allies.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It only just occurred to me, but because of the Allies rules (70% must come from primary and up to 30% allies), does that mean the starter set won't actually assemble into a single army?
You get 400~500pts of Marines, 400~500pts of Solar Auxilia, and 400-500pts of Titans.... so the biggest single army that can be made is only about 700-ish points. Or am I missing something?
Hmm, that's a bit annoying, I was hoping a starter set + my existing Marine aircraft would get me close to 2000pts in a single army, but it's probably going to be closer to 1000pts.
I have repeated this post periodically in the 150 pages or so of this thread, but another option is to take advantage of the scale and break up the board into different terrain area types. So you can have industrial or residential areas with roads connecting them, forests, rivers and hills etc. I know it's a subjective thing but it helps add some variety to the tabletop, gives you more tactical options as there are more terrain types to consider, and adds some narrative twist as well when you are trying to capture the trainyard, river crossing or airfield rather than blasted piece of rubble part D.
Not very good photos but hopefully this gives some idea (and apologies for people who have seen these before)
In this instance, the marines held the crossing and the Orks took a risk crossing the river, losing some of their number
Rather than just putting buildings on grass as in the old WD epic battle reports, I cut up a cheap 'city terrain' mat and had blocks of this placed over the grassland board, to show industrial or city areas
Some forested areas where the Orks claimed an objective. A tactical oversight from the marine player, vehicles can't enter forest so it meant they had no way of re-capturing it
An Ork clan was desperately trying to hide in amongst the railyard, the Warlord and other long range units were hammering them but by hiding they forced the marines to send in infantry.
Just a few ideas for anyone wondering what to do terrain-wise with the new game.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Hmm, that's a bit annoying, I was hoping a starter set + my existing Marine aircraft would get me close to 2000pts in a single army, but it's probably going to be closer to 1000pts.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It only just occurred to me, but because of the Allies rules (70% must come from primary and up to 30% allies), does that mean the starter set won't actually assemble into a single army?
You get 400~500pts of Marines, 400~500pts of Solar Auxilia, and 400-500pts of Titans.... so the biggest single army that can be made is only about 700-ish points. Or am I missing something?
There was a WarCom post saying that there's a way to field the contents of the starter box as a single force, but we don't have specific details yet.
We should have full reviews of the game this weekend so it'll be clear soon.
I'll probably house rule that Titan Maniples and Knight Banners can make the core of an army like any other faction. And then ally Astartes/Solar Auxilia as usual.
Also: if someone wants to go very air heavy, SA infantry formations can be really small and cheap in points, so it is possible to spam Air Support slots by fielding lots of minimum sized infantry detachments (and/or bastion detachments).
Pacific wrote: I have repeated this post periodically in the 150 pages or so of this thread, but another option is to take advantage of the scale and break up the board into different terrain area types. So you can have industrial or residential areas with roads connecting them, forests, rivers and hills etc. I know it's a subjective thing but it helps add some variety to the tabletop, gives you more tactical options as there are more terrain types to consider, and adds some narrative twist as well when you are trying to capture the trainyard, river crossing or airfield rather than blasted piece of rubble part D.
Not very good photos but hopefully this gives some idea (and apologies for people who have seen these before)
In this instance, the marines held the crossing and the Orks took a risk crossing the river, losing some of their number
Rather than just putting buildings on grass as in the old WD epic battle reports, I cut up a cheap 'city terrain' mat and had blocks of this placed over the grassland board, to show industrial or city areas
Some forested areas where the Orks claimed an objective. A tactical oversight from the marine player, vehicles can't enter forest so it meant they had no way of re-capturing it
An Ork clan was desperately trying to hide in amongst the railyard, the Warlord and other long range units were hammering them but by hiding they forced the marines to send in infantry.
Just a few ideas for anyone wondering what to do terrain-wise with the new game.
Historical wargaming has been doing this sort of thing for basically ever since it started, and it can lead to some amazing games, also nicely allows some high density areas you need infantry for as well as some open areas where armour can work
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It only just occurred to me, but because of the Allies rules (70% must come from primary and up to 30% allies), does that mean the starter set won't actually assemble into a single army?
You get 400~500pts of Marines, 400~500pts of Solar Auxilia, and 400-500pts of Titans.... so the biggest single army that can be made is only about 700-ish points. Or am I missing something?
There was a WarCom post saying that there's a way to field the contents of the starter box as a single force, but we don't have specific details yet.
We should have full reviews of the game this weekend so it'll be clear soon.
guessing some sort of special formation, likely that is outside the normal structure and for specific starter scenarios that have pre-written forces with the actual "structure" being for custom forces.
not uncommon in many games actually and makes a lot of sense, the framework being there to work to guide players for more pick up style games but how a specific scenario can have any forces its creator desires
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It only just occurred to me, but because of the Allies rules (70% must come from primary and up to 30% allies), does that mean the starter set won't actually assemble into a single army?
You get 400~500pts of Marines, 400~500pts of Solar Auxilia, and 400-500pts of Titans.... so the biggest single army that can be made is only about 700-ish points. Or am I missing something?
There was a WarCom post saying that there's a way to field the contents of the starter box as a single force, but we don't have specific details yet.
We should have full reviews of the game this weekend so it'll be clear soon.
Possible part of the Lauch Box, or featured in the White Dwarf.
Wouldn't wonder, if they also put some rules for Titan Maniples and Knight Banners as stand-alone Armies, additional Scenaries ect. into the WD and after one Year they release a Compendium Book with all that Stuff.
In all other GW games, there were simply "starter rules / scenarios" that don't especially follow the rigid list building structure of the game. The point was more to introduce the player to different types of units than having an optimized army from the start. Looks like the Launch Box will be the same.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It only just occurred to me, but because of the Allies rules (70% must come from primary and up to 30% allies), does that mean the starter set won't actually assemble into a single army?
Not just from it for sure. It's like wondering why you can't combine in the rules orruks and stormcast eternals from the starter set of AoS : it's meant to give 2 sides to learn the game ('cause one army isn't enough to play ).
Pacific wrote: I have repeated this post periodically in the 150 pages or so of this thread, but another option is to take advantage of the scale and break up the board into different terrain area types. So you can have industrial or residential areas with roads connecting them, forests, rivers and hills etc. I know it's a subjective thing but it helps add some variety to the tabletop, gives you more tactical options as there are more terrain types to consider, and adds some narrative twist as well when you are trying to capture the trainyard, river crossing or airfield rather than blasted piece of rubble part D.
Reason why people don't especially choose that way is more a question of battlefield coherency and the direct abrupt difference it shows even at this scale when it's done basically and not carefully designed to work that way. On your pictures, the battlefield is not credible, there's no city built like this with a sudden change of theme with perfectly square tiles. Of course, it's done as a compromise between cheap game materials, storage and efficiency for carriage. In short : it's not great for having awesome visuals to advertise your game, it's only meant to be functionnal and cheap. Once you invest in something really coherent, it usually means more work, more space dedicated to it and less polyvalence because nature is more about mix and invasion than perfectly separated areas. That's why most tournaments use only one theme per table : it's more coherent, more visually striking and more efficient to deploy.
Sure, GW tiles are very focused on one theme only, that is urban areas. But that's the point, which is coherency with all the other terrain they sell. It would have been silly to sell tiles of grassy areas when your main range is city buildings. Because it never was coherent, even in a SF setting (I'd even say "even more so").
Well that probably took me about three years to finish that board setup and the armies, maybe not good enough for you but was fine for me and had dozens of people attend and enjoy the spectacle.
That if is doing some heavy lifting in this sentence
Let me tell you a secret : your loving older edition of Epic was the same.
Let me tell you a bigger secret - 4th edition was extensively playtested. I did some of it (ok the swordwind book was a bit off, but that had a far shorter testing period). There was a lot of playtests, evidence, debating things with Jervis, and a game that is remarkably balanced. The UK tourney scene has made incredibly few balance measures tot he original lists.
Pacific wrote: Well that probably took me about three years to finish that board setup and the armies, maybe not good enough for you but was fine for me and had dozens of people attend and enjoy the spectacle.
Oh I saw your work and it's very inspiring. But I don't like how you make it sound like it's easy and beat GW's official products everytime. It asks for lot of time, lot of work and lot of dedication, and it's not just a question of taking your urban tiles and grass tiles then simply put them together on the same table. The end result may obviously look fine...but when I compare your pictures and GW's pictures of the battle report of the White Dwarf, I'm sorry to say the White Dwarf is more coherent and visually striking. Besides, I think your work looks the most striking when you keep the same theme together. That's all there is to it.
Let me tell you a bigger secret - 4th edition was extensively playtested. I did some of it (ok the swordwind book was a bit off, but that had a far shorter testing period). There was a lot of playtests, evidence, debating things with Jervis, and a game that is remarkably balanced. The UK tourney scene has made incredibly few balance measures tot he original lists.
And that's why I say it was the same : playtesting was always under pressure when the game was officially supported (mind you, the topic here is playtest before the game is officially launched ...sure, 4th got a lot of feedback and discussions with Jervis Johnson, but that was on the whole time it was supported by GW, not just before it was released.)
As for the "few balance measures to the original lists"...let's just say it varies depending on the country where the tournament scene is. I followed the french one for a while, and their point of view was significantly different from the UK one. Which is why we have different "fan community" versions of older editions of Epic, now. Balance is all a matter of perspective and it always changes depending of the people advocating for it. Of course, when they are the only ones talking about it, it always sounds the most perfectly balanced system...because they are the only ones involved and agreeing about it.
Reason why people don't especially choose that way is more a question of battlefield coherency and the direct abrupt difference it shows even at this scale when it's done basically and not carefully designed to work that way. On your pictures, the battlefield is not credible, there's no city built like this with a sudden change of theme with perfectly square tiles. Of course, it's done as a compromise between cheap game materials, storage and efficiency for carriage. In short : it's not great for having awesome visuals to advertise your game, it's only meant to be functionnal and cheap. Once you invest in something really coherent, it usually means more work, more space dedicated to it and less polyvalence because nature is more about mix and invasion than perfectly separated areas. That's why most tournaments use only one theme per table : it's more coherent, more visually striking and more efficient to deploy.
Sure, GW tiles are very focused on one theme only, that is urban areas. But that's the point, which is coherency with all the other terrain they sell. It would have been silly to sell tiles of grassy areas when your main range is city buildings. Because it never was coherent, even in a SF setting (I'd even say "even more so").
I am going to have to disagree with you here. This is a sci-if game. Especially in Warhammer 30K with SCT construction I feel it would not be unreasonable to have a new colony or an isolated fab center built literally exactly like this. We are not talking 1944 European countryside’s where things have organically grown, but Aline worlds that may have just had the Empire come in and say build city design X here. In this case the more aprupt transition seems reasonable.
In real like I visited China earlier this year and many of the areas I saw were also actually like this. One are they literally bulldozed the land, filled in part of a lake and build a factory and dormitories, school, and city services in a neat little area. You did not have to walk far to be in (what was left of) a natural looking area. In other areas there would be a massively built up city and just a few shacks around the edges. Those would be so small at this scale (and flimsy) that you would likely not see them.
While a board could look nicer with blended out urban areas, I feel this is pretty reasonable and good looking for the 30K era.
I would also reference battletech where the cities tend to put up out of areas when doing minis. On the printed flat maps they will often feather the fetus out into nearby terrain for no gaming impact, but those are just flap paper maps.
From a game play perspective, I really like more varied terrain like this as well. Makes for deeper game play. And to be honest, this is more what I assoiacte with my memories of seeing epic.
Also lets not forget wargames already make gross assumptions and simplifications of terrain when we play regular games.
Buildings are often vastly undersized in 28-32mm gaming. Most are little more than a garden shed or a tiny single room in size; and yet we fight around them and design them as if they are churches, factories, blocks of housing and fortresses. With tanks that would likely need to be tardis inside to actually fit crew and have room for the machinery to actually work.
So wargames already accept lots of compromises in reality and real depictions when we play. The idea of a stark shift from town to rural landscape is honestly not too far fetched in this context. Yes you can make a much more detailed board and elaborate the transition much more so; but you don't "have" too to carry that same feeling of a city suddenly under siege; or a besiged city charging out to retake the outlands and such.
The transfers themselves aren't anything special but why only these four? But there should be more in the individual boxes as they also showed SW and EC in the painting video
Also there will be transfers for 8 Auxilia regiments.
vadersson wrote:
I am going to have to disagree with you here. This is a sci-if game. Especially in Warhammer 30K with SCT construction I feel it would not be unreasonable to have a new colony or an isolated fab center built literally exactly like this. We are not talking 1944 European countryside’s where things have organically grown, but Aline worlds that may have just had the Empire come in and say build city design X here. In this case the more aprupt transition seems reasonable.
If they're not high building, sure. You build on height when you lack space, not when you're in the wilderness with all the terrain you want to build new buildings.
Thing is, GW official building terrain tend to be about height. Because that's how they hide line of sight for titans, since it was made for Titanicus first.
I have seen a lot of tables in the wilderness with few buildings here and there to show a remote colony that worked well, indeed. And a lot of Forgeworld tables that were mind boggling. If the coherence is there, it looks really good. I don't have the same feeling when it's mixed like putting urban square tiles on a grassy mat.
From a game play perspective, I really like more varied terrain like this as well. Makes for deeper game play. And to be honest, this is more what I assoiacte with my memories of seeing epic.
Of course it's really good. Here, though, we're criticizing GW for releasing tiles and terrain for a specific theme for a game that's just about to be released !
Variety is nice when you have played a lot of games with the same setting. Not from the start, you have to begin with something. What Pacific made is about 3 years of work, he said it himself. How can you expect a beginner from scratch to have the same variety at launch ? That's impossible and unreasonnable !
Overread wrote:Also lets not forget wargames already make gross assumptions and simplifications of terrain when we play regular games.
Absolutely. Still, there's a difference between a battlefield where you put terrain at random (for different reasons, mostly symetric battlefield for "balance issues" and the terrain you have at your disposal) and a battlefield with a strong theme that tells a story. They definitely don't have the same feeling.
leopard wrote: What, no shoulder pad transfer for individual models???
I've just been down to my local GW to have a look at the sprues, and someone was having a meltdown because the missile launchers are separate to the bodies...
leopard wrote: What, no shoulder pad transfer for individual models???
I've just been down to my local GW to have a look at the sprues, and someone was having a meltdown because the missile launchers are separate to the bodies...
I personally am glad as they will look a lot better for it, I also hope they can be glued to the body while the body is still on the frame (ala the HH Mk6 where the two halves of the shoulder pad can be assembled with one half on the frame for painting.
as for terrain, if the club or group you play in has ever done any 15mm scale stuff (Flames or War or ancients) you should have a range of trees, forests, hills, rivers etc that can be thrown down, drop a few AT buildings about to "scale" it and maybe some felt strip cut into a suitable roadway style and you will be able to have a reasonable table quite quickly.
also if at a club and everyone agrees to say bring a square foot or two of terrain of some sort you will quickly have a decent collection
leopard wrote: What, no shoulder pad transfer for individual models???
I've just been down to my local GW to have a look at the sprues, and someone was having a meltdown because the missile launchers are separate to the bodies...
leopard wrote: What, no shoulder pad transfer for individual models???
I've just been down to my local GW to have a look at the sprues, and someone was having a meltdown because the missile launchers are separate to the bodies...
why were they mad at that? Just being an idiot?
Yeah - I think they were expecting all the infantry to be single piece. Someone else was having a sulk about the Charonite Ogryns being multi-part so I think there was a just a bit of a negative attitude going round.
Anyway, the sprues look good in person and the store-munchkin hadn't had their product brief yet so no new info yet.
I can see some being a bit worried about the missiles being separate parts - that's getting pretty fiddly and very easy to mess the plastic model up with just a touch too much glue.
Pacific wrote: *snip*
Rather than just putting buildings on grass as in the old WD epic battle reports, I cut up a cheap 'city terrain' mat and had blocks of this placed over the grassland board, to show industrial or city areas
.
I always preferred the type of set up you have here, and intend to do the same with my own with the tiles. I love the old WD battle reps where city blocks are just plonked in the middle of grass, or the roads lead to no where. It gives an weird, other worldly feel to the game and feels very much like old school 40k to me. Its a weird liminal aesthetic, that reminds me of old 90s PC games that have strange boundaries.
The transfers themselves aren't anything special but why only these four? But there should be more in the individual boxes as they also showed SW and EC in the painting video
Also there will be transfers for 8 Auxilia regiments.
Got to flog €25 sheets later on I guess. I'd have liked to have seen a bigger sheet with a mix of smaller designs, would have liked a few emperors children ones. Considered buying a single 28mm scale one and just using the few I need.
Have millions of the ork ones from across the years, they used to be a lot less stingy with them.
beast_gts wrote:
leopard wrote: What, no shoulder pad transfer for individual models???
I've just been down to my local GW to have a look at the sprues, and someone was having a meltdown because the missile launchers are separate to the bodies...
Ah good! I can use them to convert some new blood axes or death skulls! Nothing on earth is as bad as having to glue 6mm scale 1k sons backpacks on, these will be easy!
leopard wrote: pity they have "all orders in secret, then all flipped" and not "all orders in secret and flipped one at a time as they activate"
so all you know is "that unit hasn't yet activated" not what it will do (and flipped counters show which units have and have not gone)
My guess is that as the game can scale up to larger and larger armies, the more models you add the more difficult it would be to remember what you've secretly set all your models too once you're a few activations in and the game state has changed. Much easier to flip them all at once than have to constantly keep trying to sneaky-flip your activation coins to remind yourself what you set each unit too. So I feel like its a practical element for a physical game in that it just helps larger games not get bogged down with confusion or players constantly miss-remembering what units were set too and making bad choices based on that.
Hidden orders likely would work fine in skirmisher games and games that don't scale up to larger and larger battles.
The transfers themselves aren't anything special but why only these four? But there should be more in the individual boxes as they also showed SW and EC in the painting video
Also there will be transfers for 8 Auxilia regiments.
So the 8 Auxilia Regiments are probably the ones circled in green and Legion Transfers are circled in red. And rest are for the Titans? Must be a dedicated marine-sheet in the marine boxes.
So the 8 Auxilia Regiments are probably the ones circled in green and Legion Transfers are circled in red. And rest are for the Titans? Must be a dedicated marine-sheet in the marine boxes.
That seems to be correct, the ones to the right of the legion transfers might be numbers to use with everyone and the one to the right of that is titans with the smaller one in the top right being for banners maybe?
Battlereport is also up now but as I don't have a subscription I will need to wait for somebody else here to tell us how it went
That if is doing some heavy lifting in this sentence
Let me tell you a secret : your loving older edition of Epic was the same.
Let me tell you a bigger secret - 4th edition was extensively playtested. I did some of it (ok the swordwind book was a bit off, but that had a far shorter testing period). There was a lot of playtests, evidence, debating things with Jervis, and a game that is remarkably balanced. The UK tourney scene has made incredibly few balance measures tot he original lists.
Yep. I was doing it as well remember it well and I even got one of my questions answered in the faq section of rulebook. Had I knew that might have happened would have tried phrasing it better...
And that's why I say it was the same : playtesting was always under pressure when the game was officially supported (mind you, the topic here is playtest before the game is officially launched ...sure, 4th got a lot of feedback and discussions with Jervis Johnson, but that was on the whole time it was supported by GW, not just before it was released.)
it.
Supported how? Couple word doc at specific site. No models on sale..,
There`s suspiciously little content in that "quick start", all it contains is one scenario and one special formation to use with contents of the box (mix of both marines and solar auxilia), and note that this is not supposed to be used for regular games (sorry, matched games). It also feels like they intend for both players to get full box of miniatures EACH for this introductory scenario.
I wouldn't be 100% confident that every Legion will get transfers in the individual boxed sets. For full sized Heresy we have only ever gotten Sons Of Horus and Imperial Fists transfers.
I think that most of the mini transfers in the painting videos may be from the full sized Heresy Forge World transfer sheets. They all have tiny legion symbols for knee pads etc.
Would certainly be an expensive way to add legion flavour to your LI games. I hope I am wrong.
There`s suspiciously little content in that "quick start", all it contains is one scenario and one special formation to use with contents of the box (mix of both marines and solar auxilia), and note that this is not supposed to be used for regular games (sorry, matched games). It also feels like they intend for both players to get full box of miniatures EACH for this introductory scenario.
Ummm:
Designer’s Note: This guide is designed as an introduction to the game of Legions Imperialis by splitting the contents of a single Legions Imperialis boxed game into two separate armies, each army containing both Legiones Astartes and Solar Auxilia models. It is intended to be used in conjunction with the Opening Manoeuvres Mission on page 2. The battlefield size of this mission is smaller than an average Legions Imperialis game – adding additional Detachments may require adjustment to the battlefield size, and the placement of Objectives, accordingly
I don't think so (in relation to intending for both players to have a box each), but it does allow for two boxed games to fight against one another. It is literally the perfect quick start? What more do you want?
There`s suspiciously little content in that "quick start", all it contains is one scenario and one special formation to use with contents of the box (mix of both marines and solar auxilia), and note that this is not supposed to be used for regular games (sorry, matched games). It also feels like they intend for both players to get full box of miniatures EACH for this introductory scenario.
Ummm:
Designer’s Note: This guide is designed as an introduction to the game of Legions Imperialis by splitting the contents
of a single Legions Imperialis boxed game into two separate armies, each army containing both Legiones Astartes and
Solar Auxilia models. It is intended to be used in conjunction with the Opening Manoeuvres Mission on page 2. The
battlefield size of this mission is smaller than an average Legions Imperialis game – adding additional Detachments may
require adjustment to the battlefield size, and the placement of Objectives, accordingly
I don't think so, but it does allow for two boxed games to fight against one another. It is literally the perfect quick start? What more do you want?
I think it allows 1 box set to form a battle with 2 sides?
'Splitting a Single LI Box into 2 separate armies'
Automatically Appended Next Post: The battle report on W+ is 1100 points each.
There`s suspiciously little content in that "quick start", all it contains is one scenario and one special formation to use with contents of the box (mix of both marines and solar auxilia), and note that this is not supposed to be used for regular games (sorry, matched games). It also feels like they intend for both players to get full box of miniatures EACH for this introductory scenario.
Ummm:
Designer’s Note: This guide is designed as an introduction to the game of Legions Imperialis by splitting the contents
of a single Legions Imperialis boxed game into two separate armies, each army containing both Legiones Astartes and
Solar Auxilia models. It is intended to be used in conjunction with the Opening Manoeuvres Mission on page 2. The
battlefield size of this mission is smaller than an average Legions Imperialis game – adding additional Detachments may
require adjustment to the battlefield size, and the placement of Objectives, accordingly
I don't think so (in relation to intending for both players to have a box each), but it does allow for two boxed games to fight against one another. It is literally the perfect quick start? What more do you want?
Ah, my bad, glanced too quickly through that paragraph. As to what more could be there - for example a sample army lists for both sides made from that one box and unit stats for the box content, as that would make it easier to quickly look it up during play, as opposed to having to flip through entire book every time.
Supported how? Couple word doc at specific site. No models on sale..,
At that time, when Epic : Armaggedon was first released, there was a hardcopy rulebook before it was pdf only and there were models sold via the website (in the Specialist Games section : you can consider it wasn't part of GW, but that would be a lie to say there was no official support at all). Same for the expansion Swordwind. It was like this for as long as it lasted. You're talking about the time period after that support ended and fan communities took the rules for themselves once they weren't on free download from GW website anymore - it wasn't always like that, mind you.
vadersson wrote:
I am going to have to disagree with you here. This is a sci-if game. Especially in Warhammer 30K with SCT construction I feel it would not be unreasonable to have a new colony or an isolated fab center built literally exactly like this. We are not talking 1944 European countryside’s where things have organically grown, but Aline worlds that may have just had the Empire come in and say build city design X here. In this case the more aprupt transition seems reasonable.
If they're not high building, sure. You build on height when you lack space, not when you're in the wilderness with all the terrain you want to build new buildings.
There are reasons other than pure space. Ground conditions and the need to provide services infrastructure are other reasons why you build tall to minimise ground footprint. Also Imperials build for longevity, so that sudden transition between building and grassland is only temporary in their eyes until the next phase of the colony kicks in. And actually, the buildings being put in now are going to be the foundations for the hive structure that will be coming along in 1,000 years or so
Absolutely agree preferneces are subjective to individuals, but you can usually come up with a valid reason for any kind of thing somewhere across 1,000,000 worlds
Supported how? Couple word doc at specific site. No models on sale..,
At that time, when Epic : Armaggedon was first released, there was a hardcopy rulebook before it was pdf only and there were models sold via the website (in the Specialist Games section : you can consider it wasn't part of GW, but that would be a lie to say there was no official support at all). Same for the expansion Swordwind. It was like this for as long as it lasted. You're talking about the time period after that support ended and fan communities took the rules for themselves once they weren't on free download from GW website anymore - it wasn't always like that, mind you.
It was playtedted before book came out. I played it then. No minis on sale before book came.
As sain. I got question in book in prerelease playtest. Rules were playtwsted long before it was released
It started with docs that kept changing as Jervis changed them from feedback
Absolutely agree preferneces are subjective to individuals, but you can usually come up with a valid reason for any kind of thing somewhere across 1,000,000 worlds
You're right. A good story is always nice to justify the way the battlefield is set. Some do write by themselves, like fighting in city streets with city buildings / ruins around. Others need a little more push.
Pretty much normal when miniatures are sold after official release of the game, you know...playtesting of 4th edition may have been open in opposition to former ones, but it was still playtesting. Not like GW gave playtesters complete armies to playtest their games if the rules are open to anyone to try them and give their feedback : it was a different approach than before aimed at fans of the older editions and who already have a basis to play. That's not "support of the game once it's released".
So 2,000 points on a 6x4 would be good, leave plenty of space for maneuvering, and be fairly affordable.
Also, it kind of feels weird when the "starter" set needs a special formation and a special scenario that aren't "legal" outside of starter box fights. It seems like the rules designers and whoever decided what went in the box weren't coordinating.
infinite_array wrote: Also, it kind of feels weird when the "starter" set needs a special formation and a special scenario that aren't "legal" outside of starter box fights. It seems like the rules designers and whoever decided what went in the box weren't coordinating.
I feel that's been more often the case than not through history. Hell, it's essentially what combat patrol is in 40k. And before they gave up on a force org chart, you'd have to split the tac squad into 2x5 to make a 'legal' army with any starter set.
infinite_array wrote: Also, it kind of feels weird when the "starter" set needs a special formation and a special scenario that aren't "legal" outside of starter box fights. It seems like the rules designers and whoever decided what went in the box weren't coordinating.
I feel that's been more often the case than not through history. Hell, it's essentially what combat patrol is in 40k. And before they gave up on a force org chart, you'd have to split the tac squad into 2x5 to make a 'legal' army with any starter set.
Yeah most of those "duel army" packs GW were doing for a long while all had their own internal scenario built into them which adapted the rules a bit this way and that to balance them. It's not that abnormal at all when the value in a boxed set is based on money rather than on game performance and when GW has openly admitted that they don't link the two up save in a general sense. Even then you've models like Gotrek in AoS who is cheap and tiny and yet is insanely powerful.
With wargames starter/entry/battleforce boxes are made to be expanded from rather than to be whole armies. The opposite is honestly rarer.
I've seen it - Spartan Games actually went all in on the idea with Planetfall and their helix system. Each army was made up of a number of Helix choices, each Helix was a whole boxed set and a pre-designed set of multiple units for that helix. When you built the army you chose helix you were taken rather than the individual models. It had the bonus of helping them deal with a big SKU for multiple forces and also I think its a neat way to reduce min-maxing of certain unit types without having lots of unit limits and such. Instead you had a really simple system and its a shame they never got to take it further and make a big impact with it as its a system I feel would suite quite a few games.
Supported how? Couple word doc at specific site. No models on sale..,
Armageddon was supported with a model range during play testing. They only took the model range down during the start of the refresh and brought everything back in piecemeal.
The model range did have gaps as some things were never brought back during E40k's run and some items remained out of stock (or eventually discontinued completely). There are posts from JJ on the old forums discussing why things were missing. The models carried on being sold long after EA stopped getting updates and was just a PDF from their website, up until specialist games was nuked around 2012.
infinite_array wrote: So 2,000 points on a 6x4 would be good, leave plenty of space for maneuvering, and be fairly affordable.
Also, it kind of feels weird when the "starter" set needs a special formation and a special scenario that aren't "legal" outside of starter box fights. It seems like the rules designers and whoever decided what went in the box weren't coordinating.
Starter sets never been good to play like matched play. Not legal or way off points is norm.
Roll Three Dice wrote: ‘We’ve always done it this way’ is quite literally the worst excuse for doing anything inefficient, stupid or unconstructive.
And changing something just to change it isn't a compelling argument either. Remember, we aren't the ones that have to be convinced you need to convince the companies producing starter sets that this type of starter set is less economically feasible than another type. They aren't doing it this way "just because it has been done that way" but most likely because it sells better and/or makes more in the long run.
VAYASEN wrote: Battle report is 1100 points on a 3x3foot board.
Looks good and enough units to fill it without looking overcrowded.
Yes. I actually find it pretty compelling to play this small format, it makes me feel like playing "pocket Warhammer Horus Heresy" without investing too much, taking a lot of space and be able to play after a week of painting / building a bit each evening after work.
VAYASEN wrote: Battle report is 1100 points on a 3x3foot board.
Looks good and enough units to fill it without looking overcrowded.
Yes. I actually find it pretty compelling to play this small format, it makes me feel like playing "pocket Warhammer Horus Heresy" without investing too much, taking a lot of space and be able to play after a week of painting / building a bit each evening after work.
I know people who play 10mm Heresy just scaling everything down proportionately.
Personally I'd prefer Epic to be on a full sized table (but not carpeted with units) to emphasize maneuvering, importance of weapon ranges etc.
I know people who play 10mm Heresy just scaling everything down proportionately.
Personally I'd prefer Epic to be on a full sized table (but not carpeted with units) to emphasize maneuvering, importance of weapon ranges etc.
You mean, putting the infantry models individually on custom bases and play with Horus Heresy rules ? There's indeed a crowd for that but I'm afraid my big fingers will make them slip out of my hands more often than I'd like...
Big battles are ok once I have gathered enough to fill one, but I feel like I'd play more often with these "small skirmishes" that'll help to keep my motivation during the journey.
I think the forces are a good balance. You get a taster for each in a reasonably efficient package. You can then choose one of the forces to add a couple of expansion packs to, and you automatically get a couple of thematic ally forces to use for flavour. The epic box version I got was the one with 50% marines, 30% Orks and 20% eldar. Now that was a mess
Mine had a full smallish army of space marines and a full smallish army of orks. Plus a cardboard gargant ^^. Plus half a board's worth of ruined buildings.
Flinty wrote: I think the forces are a good balance. You get a taster for each in a reasonably efficient package. You can then choose one of the forces to add a couple of expansion packs to, and you automatically get a couple of thematic ally forces to use for flavour. The epic box version I got was the one with 50% marines, 30% Orks and 20% eldar. Now that was a mess
Sounds like the old 2nd Edition starter box, which also included a warlord titan.
My friends and I played that quite a bit, though none of them ever ended up getting any troops.
It's almost like this whole release has been a big mess of lack of communication between departments, ever-shifting customer expectation, reveals and hype for things that aren't going to be here for another year in an effort to retain scattered attention of customer base, and potentially a major feth-up of the original book that may or may not have been due to political commentary or huge rules/points inconsistencies depending on which rumor source you trust.
Starter set is starter set. It has a way to play out the box. If you like playing the game with that, you can expand into the rest of the game. If you don't, you weren't going to buy anything additional anyway.
Could it be better? Sure. But at this point I just want the products in my hands so I can make my little army of tanks. I'm not going to sit here and commiserate about the parts of the box I'm not even planning on using and neither should you.
Possible, that we get an extra Decal Sheet for more Space Marine Legions.
There is a picture with an Emperors Children Dreadnought, showing a white Legion Symbol, which is not part of the large EC Decal Sheet with golden Symbols.
leopard wrote: pity they have "all orders in secret, then all flipped" and not "all orders in secret and flipped one at a time as they activate"
so all you know is "that unit hasn't yet activated" not what it will do (and flipped counters show which units have and have not gone)
My guess is that as the game can scale up to larger and larger armies, the more models you add the more difficult it would be to remember what you've secretly set all your models too once you're a few activations in and the game state has changed. Much easier to flip them all at once than have to constantly keep trying to sneaky-flip your activation coins to remind yourself what you set each unit too. So I feel like its a practical element for a physical game in that it just helps larger games not get bogged down with confusion or players constantly miss-remembering what units were set too and making bad choices based on that.
Hidden orders likely would work fine in skirmisher games and games that don't scale up to larger and larger battles.
IIRC there was nothing preventing you picking up and checking your own sides orders counters at any time, and having played several 10k games of 1st edition this was never a problem that delayed the game
Vorian wrote: Aside from the delay obviously messing up their schedule the release has seemed fine to me.
The first expansion must be pretty imminent too, given the white dwarf article talking about it was pretty soon after the release should have been.
I suspect the original schedule was to have the launch in August, followup waves in Sept/October, then have the expansion drop just before or after new year.
Now we have at two distinct groups of pending releases:
Predators / Sicarans / Russ / Malcador / two support boxes, plus the new plastic Dire Wolves. This rounds out anything in the core rulebook.
Re-releases for Warhounds, missing flyers, and separate terrain kits.
Knight & titan discount boxes
Post expansion products: fast attack, land raiders, drop pods, stormhammers, etc, plus the book. Potentially there are other units in this wave still to be revealed.
There's more than enough stuff here that each group may well be further split up. The first could plausibly cover both Jan and Feb, meaning now we might not get the expansion until Spring.
Sarouan wrote: You mean, putting the infantry models individually on custom bases and play with Horus Heresy rules ? There's indeed a crowd for that but I'm afraid my big fingers will make them slip out of my hands more often than I'd like...
Big battles are ok once I have gathered enough to fill one, but I feel like I'd play more often with these "small skirmishes" that'll help to keep my motivation during the journey.
Yea that's what they're doing, literally regular Heresy with everything scaled down.
Small forces should be perfectly fine for Legions Imperialis (if army size scales down well) I just think you should avoid scaling down the table as having room to maneuver is probably the most meaningful advantage of Epic scale vs 28mm+
Sarouan wrote: You mean, putting the infantry models individually on custom bases and play with Horus Heresy rules ? There's indeed a crowd for that but I'm afraid my big fingers will make them slip out of my hands more often than I'd like...
Big battles are ok once I have gathered enough to fill one, but I feel like I'd play more often with these "small skirmishes" that'll help to keep my motivation during the journey.
Yea that's what they're doing, literally regular Heresy with everything scaled down.
Small forces should be perfectly fine for Legions Imperialis (if army size scales down well) I just think you should avoid scaling down the table as having room to maneuver is probably the most meaningful advantage of Epic scale vs 28mm+
Use 5×1mm disc magnets as the bases and a sheet of rubber steel for the table. Travelhammer for the car on long trips.
Sarouan wrote: You mean, putting the infantry models individually on custom bases and play with Horus Heresy rules ? There's indeed a crowd for that but I'm afraid my big fingers will make them slip out of my hands more often than I'd like...
Big battles are ok once I have gathered enough to fill one, but I feel like I'd play more often with these "small skirmishes" that'll help to keep my motivation during the journey.
Yea that's what they're doing, literally regular Heresy with everything scaled down.
Small forces should be perfectly fine for Legions Imperialis (if army size scales down well) I just think you should avoid scaling down the table as having room to maneuver is probably the most meaningful advantage of Epic scale vs 28mm+
Use 5×1mm disc magnets as the bases and a sheet of rubber steel for the table. Travelhammer for the car on long trips.
Instead of a full sheet over the whole table you could also use washers or metal plates for each unit. That way you already have movement trays for them
tauist wrote: Could be intersting to play a 3000 point HH2 game on a 6 x 4' table using LI models, at least the board wouldn't look like a parking garage
You'd obviously need to divide all weapon and movement ranges by 4, and the game would need to last more than a couple turns but yeh
Using cm instead of inches gets you a factor 2,54 and it's really convenient. Lots of 28mm-system-with-8/10mm-models gamers just do that.
xttz wrote: Aside from the niche Malcador variants, I think the would round off the current SA range:
Aurox
Carnodon
Valdor
Shadowsword / Stormblade
The Carnodon is only in the expanded army lists for HH2.0 thats why I don't expect it for now same for the Shadowsword / Stormblade and we already got three Baneblade variants so I also don't expect two more for now.
The Valdor is the only one I can see in the near future but I really want the Aurox first
MarkNorfolk wrote: I'm not that au fait with the HH... is the Gorgon a Heresy era vehicle?
It first appeared in the Imperial Armor Siege of Vraks books, I think, but it's old enough that you can use it in Heresy. It's a giant-ass WWII landing craft on treads that carries something like fifty Guardsmen, so more of an Epic-scale model anyway.
2nd Ed Epic, Armies of the Imperium 1991 supplement was the earliest reference I saw - open top, giant dozer blade, short range mine thrower in the turret and carries 5 stands of troops so 25 infantry altogether
MarkNorfolk wrote: I'm not that au fait with the HH... is the Gorgon a Heresy era vehicle?
It first appeared in the Imperial Armor Siege of Vraks books, I think, but it's old enough that you can use it in Heresy. It's a giant-ass WWII landing craft on treads that carries something like fifty Guardsmen, so more of an Epic-scale model anyway.
The Carnodon is only in the expanded army lists for HH2.0 thats why I don't expect it for now same for the Shadowsword / Stormblade and we already got three Baneblade variants so I also don't expect two more for now.
The Valdor is the only one I can see in the near future but I really want the Aurox first
Conversely, I would point out that the Shadowsword is one of the signature Imperium super-heavies. It was originally released alongside the Baneblades, and is a very potent anti-titan vehicle. Given it's high profile within Epic, and it's very notable role, I would expect to see it in the game sooner, rather than later. Back when AT was released, there was even speculation that we might see the Shadowsword introduced into that game due to its importance against titans.
xttz wrote: Aside from the niche Malcador variants, I think the would round off the current SA range:
Aurox
Carnodon
Valdor
Shadowsword / Stormblade
The Carnodon is only in the expanded army lists for HH2.0 thats why I don't expect it for now same for the Shadowsword / Stormblade and we already got three Baneblade variants so I also don't expect two more for now.
The Valdor is the only one I can see in the near future but I really want the Aurox first
I was going to say that those should still be Heresy era appropriate, but then I remember that list includes rules for the Macharius variants, which wouldn't exist for another few thousand years or so.
There's also the 'Light Armor' slot that we haven't seen really anything for. Obvious solutions would be the Sabre for Space Marines and the Carnodon for Solar Auxilia. The Carnodon actually has a model from FW, so here's hoping it gets representation in LI.
.jpg.7fd93e907a712c6e41b50b739510ec1e.jpg)
)
).
Suddenly, "problem" with infantry boxes seem much less of a hassle...
