Mr.Church13 wrote: $85 for the rules and you have to buy an additional card pack! And they more than likely plan to invalidate the rules every two years now so what is wrong with GW? It's like they're trying to throw the company under the train on purpose now.
My psychic cards are predicting another 25% fall very soon for the big Kirby machine.
I don't see the issue. It only works out o $50 a year. Xbox LIVE costs more than that. Why are people making such a huge deal about this?
Because for some people, it's either/or, not both. Look I know the "feth you, I got mine Jack" attitude is popular around here, but it's not a difficult concept to grasp; people who don't have a lot of disposable income are naturally going to resent an additional unnecessary expense being imposed. It means they have to give up something else, and if they can only afford to keep up one hobby and chose 40K, it means they have to eat into their own hobby budget just to keep using the models they already have.
Christ I have an Autism spectrum disorder and I seem to have more empathy and basic consideration for other people's circumstances than a lot of folk here.
If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years, you are really in the wrong hobby. I take it you haven't bought any new units recently then? because if you bought more than one, you've likely already spent more than the cost of the rulebook. Units you might not even use every game, unlike the rulebook.
No interest in shelling out for an overpriced rehash of the same legacy issue bollocksed rules we've been fiddling with for 4 editions now. If the rules came with the starter, I might mess around with them, but with so many free alternatives around, there's nothing to tempt me to buy it, if the rumour of no starter is true.
I hope it's just "no simultaneous release" of a starter set.
"Some updates on 7th edition: 1) It will purely be a book release. 2) It could be released as early as May.
So you will only have to buy the rulebook for 100$, it will be valid for about 12 months top.
1) The 6th ed rulebook was released in july and the starter box wasn't out until September so the fact that there's no starter box this month proves precisely feth all
2) You've got no idea how long it'll be valid for
1) It has been clearly stated by 40k radio that this will be an book only edition! Dont try to educate me in GWs release schedule please.
2) When GW can get every 40k player to buy an expensive rulebook every fourth year and then every second year, do you really tink they will hesitate even one second trying for yearly editons?
A new rushed edition just 2 years after the last one and people really think this will "fix" everything?
If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years, you are really in the wrong hobby. I take it you haven't bought any new units recently then? because if you bought more than one, you've likely already spent more than the cost of the rulebook. Units you might not even use every game, unlike the rulebook.
If this edition indicates a new trend of shrinking edition lengths by half and prices increasing by around 1/3, you'll need another $133 next summer.
"Some updates on 7th edition: 1) It will purely be a book release. 2) It could be released as early as May.
So you will only have to buy the rulebook for 100$, it will be valid for about 12 months top.
1) The 6th ed rulebook was released in july and the starter box wasn't out until September so the fact that there's no starter box this month proves precisely feth all
2) You've got no idea how long it'll be valid for
1) It has been clearly stated by 40k radio that this will be an book only edition! Dont try to educate me in GWs release schedule please.
2) When GW can get every 40k player to buy an expensive rulebook every fourth year and then every second year, do you really tink they will hesitate even one second trying for yearly editons?
A new rushed edition just 2 years after the last one and people really think this will "fix" everything?
I completely agree if the fools who buy this make it successful in the least, expect nothing short of GW jumping directly on at the very least a brand new 2 year cycle for editions with a price creep every time for good measure.
If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years
That is the problem. Right there.
You, or anyone on here, doesn't know how long this edition will last. Because 23 months ago the math we all did was "$75 for a new rule book is a lot, but at least it will last us for about 5 years" and GW changed the equation on us half way through 6th edition's "life span."
You cannot reasonably assign a length of use for this next edition because by releasing 7th so far ahead of when the player base was expecting it the entire "agreement" that GW has with its players over the life of an edition has fundamentally changed. Sure 7th may last 2, 4, or 6 years, but until we start down this path again for 8th none of us know how much utility will be obtained from 7th edition and it is making the overall purchase seem entirely lacking in value.
Without trawling back through all the rumours and official stuff over the past couple of weeks, wasn't there mention of cards for variable missions? Similar to the Psyker decks? Or did I imagine that? Is that what the new Objective markers are listed in that rumour?
If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years, you are really in the wrong hobby. I take it you haven't bought any new units recently then? because if you bought more than one, you've likely already spent more than the cost of the rulebook. Units you might not even use every game, unlike the rulebook.
If this edition indicates a new trend of shrinking edition lengths by half and prices increasing by around 1/3, you'll need another $133 next summer.
This is a worthless argument based on nothing. There is zero evidence that GW will release a new edition next summer. One instance of them shortening the release schedule doesn't make it a "trend".
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Squidbot wrote: Without trawling back through all the rumours and official stuff over the past couple of weeks, wasn't there mention of cards for variable missions? Similar to the Psyker decks? Or did I imagine that? Is that what the new Objective markers are listed in that rumour?
There is indeed a deck of 36 cards for objectives.
Mr.Church13 wrote: $85 for the rules and you have to buy an additional card pack! And they more than likely plan to invalidate the rules every two years now so what is wrong with GW? It's like they're trying to throw the company under the train on purpose now.
My psychic cards are predicting another 25% fall very soon for the big Kirby machine.
I don't see the issue. It only works out o $50 a year. Xbox LIVE costs more than that. Why are people making such a huge deal about this?
Because for some people, it's either/or, not both. Look I know the "feth you, I got mine Jack" attitude is popular around here, but it's not a difficult concept to grasp; people who don't have a lot of disposable income are naturally going to resent an additional unnecessary expense being imposed. It means they have to give up something else, and if they can only afford to keep up one hobby and chose 40K, it means they have to eat into their own hobby budget just to keep using the models they already have.
Christ I have an Autism spectrum disorder and I seem to have more empathy and basic consideration for other people's circumstances than a lot of folk here.
If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years, you are really in the wrong hobby. I take it you haven't bought any new units recently then? because if you bought more than one, you've likely already spent more than the cost of the rulebook. Units you might not even use every game, unlike the rulebook.
It's ironic how the tone of your post validates the person's statement that you quoted. You may or may not mean to sound churlish but you certainly come off that way. The value that anyone places in "this hobby" (as if GW games are a hobby and not a slice of the overall miniature wargaming hobby) is completely subjective. If someone says that they don't value paying $100 every couple of years for a book, the courteous thing would be to just say something benign like "I disagree but you have a right to your opinion" instead of making a statement about how they are in the "wrong hobby." What response do you expect to that? The only plausible answer is that you are looking to start an argument, kudos.
In reality, GW games are in a realm unto themselves as far as cost goes. Many modern wargaming companies offer free or low-cost rules so that people spend more money on the actual product that involves the most investment, the miniatures. GW has established a trend to the opposite; they are charging increasingly larger sums for the rules which I believe results in players having less available spending cash to purchase the more expensive to produce miniatures. It's odd and counter productive in my opinion and apparently strikes other posters as such as well considering their comments.
If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years
That is the problem. Right there.
You, or anyone on here, doesn't know how long this edition will last. Because 23 months ago the math we all did was "$75 for a new rule book is a lot, but at least it will last us for about 5 years" and GW changed the equation on us half way through 6th edition's "life span."
You cannot reasonably assign a length of use for this next edition because by releasing 7th so far ahead of when the player base was expecting it the entire "agreement" that GW has with its players over the life of an edition has fundamentally changed. Sure 7th may last 2, 4, or 6 years, but until we start down this path again for 8th none of us know how much utility will be obtained from 7th edition and it is making the overall purchase seem entirely lacking in value.
This is a good point. I bought into the 6th hype, picked up a LE and overall felt pretty good about it, believing it would last the minimum lifespan of any previous book (and most have been about the same, 4-5 years).
Now I am concerned 7th won't last but two years, and it is even possible it could last less time. Only now I'm probably going to have to pay more than the book from 6th. Now obviously I won't buy another LE copy, but I was looking at that as a special bonus; I still thought $75 was a lot of money for a rulebook.
Overall, I think this move (while perhaps beneficial in the rules department) will not be good for the health of 40k.
EDIT: and again, the reason this is concerning is it is such a marked shift from the trend. A loss of a year would have been annoying buy such huge drop is downright concerning.
If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years
That is the problem. Right there.
You, or anyone on here, doesn't know how long this edition will last. Because 23 months ago the math we all did was "$75 for a new rule book is a lot, but at least it will last us for about 5 years" and GW changed the equation on us half way through 6th edition's "life span."
You cannot reasonably assign a length of use for this next edition because by releasing 7th so far ahead of when the player base was expecting it the entire "agreement" that GW has with its players over the life of an edition has fundamentally changed. Sure 7th may last 2, 4, or 6 years, but until we start down this path again for 8th none of us know how much utility will be obtained from 7th edition and it is making the overall purchase seem entirely lacking in value.
I'm not sure what you mean. My 6th edition book still works fine, and will until they release 7th edition several years from now.
I hear that Games Workshop is working on some other game that's going to release soon that lets you use all the models from your 40k armies though. Sounds kind of crazy.
If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years
That is the problem. Right there.
You, or anyone on here, doesn't know how long this edition will last. Because 23 months ago the math we all did was "$75 for a new rule book is a lot, but at least it will last us for about 5 years" and GW changed the equation on us half way through 6th edition's "life span."
You cannot reasonably assign a length of use for this next edition because by releasing 7th so far ahead of when the player base was expecting it the entire "agreement" that GW has with its players over the life of an edition has fundamentally changed. Sure 7th may last 2, 4, or 6 years, but until we start down this path again for 8th none of us know how much utility will be obtained from 7th edition and it is making the overall purchase seem entirely lacking in value.
I'm not sure what you mean. My 6th edition book still works fine, and will until they release 7th edition several years from now.
I hear that Games Workshop is working on some other game that's going to release soon that lets you use all the models from your 40k armies though. Sounds kind of crazy.
I am not following. Is this a joke about the next edition being 6.5 and not actually 7th edition?
If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years, you are really in the wrong hobby. I take it you haven't bought any new units recently then? because if you bought more than one, you've likely already spent more than the cost of the rulebook. Units you might not even use every game, unlike the rulebook.
If this edition indicates a new trend of shrinking edition lengths by half and prices increasing by around 1/3, you'll need another $133 next summer.
This is a worthless argument based on nothing. There is zero evidence that GW will release a new edition next summer. One instance of them shortening the release schedule doesn't make it a "trend".
You could say the same thing about rumors of 7th edition in 2013... but we can see how that would turn out. The fact is that GW has accelerated the timetable on editions and your guess about the length of the upcoming edition's lifespan is as good or bad as anyone else's guess... which is pointless. Your argument about getting years worth of use out of this edition is moot because of the sudden appearance of this edition. If sales/profits continue to shrink, there is nothing stopping GW from trying to cash in on the yearly "call of duty" and "assassin's creed" style of yearly iterations in another attempt to stem the shrinkage.
I'll agree that, whilst this is an expensive purchase, I can't see past us only accepting this happening once.
I'll buy it this time. If they release 8th edition in two years, I will not be falling into that cycle. No thanks. I imagine GW are acutely aware of this and will be jumping on fact that 6th is a jumbled mess - Data slates are a grey area because they aren't in the books etc.
They are doing this edition to push the sales of data slates and formations etc.
Fair enough. Won't happen a 2nd time round because even the most understanding player will be angry at them for it.
Squidbot wrote: Without trawling back through all the rumours and official stuff over the past couple of weeks, wasn't there mention of cards for variable missions? Similar to the Psyker decks? Or did I imagine that? Is that what the new Objective markers are listed in that rumour?
What people were calling "tokens" is actually a mission card set.
40-20-60 WH40K TACTICAL OBJECTIVES
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ascended_mike wrote: I'll agree that, whilst this is an expensive purchase, I can't see past us only accepting this happening once.
I'll buy it this time. If they release 8th edition in two years, I will not be falling into that cycle. No thanks. I imagine GW are acutely aware of this and will be jumping on fact that 6th is a jumbled mess - Data slates are a grey area because they aren't in the books etc.
They are doing this edition to push the sales of data slates and formations etc.
Fair enough. Won't happen a 2nd time round because even the most understanding player will be angry at them for it.
Keep in mind that for as long as I can remember (and I have been involved in 40K both as a hobbyist and retailer since Rogue Trader) that GW has been focused on the 12 year old newcomer. Getting them in, getting them to spend $XXX.XX and then moving on is their main goal. When you realize that and that those of us who have stuck with it beyond that scope and are NOT the main audience as GW sees it makes it easier to either move on - or not - whatever your decision may be.
As a university student, I've long since been atrophied to buying $150+ books in the 2-300 page range I'll only use for 4 months.
I don't like buying the big expensive GW books alongside my school books, and I think it's only going to hurt their business ($150+ before you can even start building a list is quite the barrier), but as someone already invested, and as I'm in the last stages of my degree, I have to buy a lot less school books, it doesn't bother me personally very much if the outcome improves the game.
That being said, I never bought the 6th book; at the time I was still building up my first army, it wasn't in the budget at $75 on top of Russes and Guardsmen, and I imagine that will remain true for anyone else who wants to get in to the game or is trying to build up their army or had recently bought the 6th book.
I can stomach this, and am even cautiously optimistic (I finally get to do the 1st Company Marine list I've always wanted), but I can see how this may piss off a lot of people. What I expect is a lot of people are going to wait and see what the consensus is on the new book from those who buy it, and decide if the improvements, if any, are enough to swallow the price.
I am not following. Is this a joke about the next edition being 6.5 and not actually 7th edition?
Er, it was the statement that 6th will keep being valid long as you keep playing it, along with a joke that these changes are such a departure from the norm that 7ed probably shouldn't be considered 40k.
So as soon GW does something which isnt absolutely crazy and stupid and mean towards its customers people are actually praising them.
This GW-customer relation is really the psychology of an abusive relationship. "they promised not to hit me, or they didnt promise but I guess it looks like it." while people say "dont blame GW, GW does nothing wrong, you could just stop being you and GW wont hit you anymore" but we all reply "but we love GW, we remember a time when it was a good relationship and we soooo much want to get there again"
but GW wont change... and if they do, its only a front to lure victims
I am not following. Is this a joke about the next edition being 6.5 and not actually 7th edition?
Er, it was the statement that 6th will keep being valid long as you keep playing it, along with a joke that these changes are such a departure from the norm that 7ed probably shouldn't be considered 40k.
Ah, okay. Can't say I disagree with the second bit!
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Well, won't he autolose from taking 10 turkies, since he has hardly anything on the board?"
There's a mention in one of the posted excerpts about Unbound lists being able to take all tanks or flyers... which suggests that an all-reserve list isn't an auto-lose any more.
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WrentheFaceless wrote: Hopefuly the fact that Unbound lists cant contest objectives at all is a big disincentive towards actually trying to play Unbound seriously.
It won't be, because from my experience most players ignore the mission and just try to wipe each other out, only remembering to try to grab objectives at the end of the game.
The 'can't contest' thing is certainly some sort of balancer, but it's not enough in my book... and it's a silly, arbitrary restriction that still makes no sense.
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WrentheFaceless wrote: So seems instead of an allies matrix theres a 'faction' now. Probably imperium/chaos/eldar/everyone else? lol
I'm guessing that 'Faction' refers to a codex and its offshoots. So the parent codex, plus any supplements or dataslates that refer to that parent codex.
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Samurai_Eduh wrote: I don't see the issue. It only works out o $50 a year. Xbox LIVE costs more than that. Why are people making such a huge deal about this?
Because the fact that some other completely unrelated thing costs money doesn't make people feel any better about having to buy a new rulebook after 2 years or less?
WrentheFaceless wrote: Hopefuly the fact that Unbound lists cant contest objectives at all is a big disincentive towards actually trying to play Unbound seriously.
It won't be, because from my experience most players ignore the mission and just try to wipe each other out, only remembering to try to grab objectives at the end of the game.
The 'can't contest' thing is certainly some sort of balancer, but it's not enough in my book... and it's a silly, arbitrary restriction that still makes no sense.
Yeah, most games I've actually ever see revolve around two players trying to bash the other one to smithereens- that's not to say they're jerks about it, just that their primary focus is destroying the opponent.
Accolade wrote: Yeah, most games I've actually ever see revolve around two players trying to bash the other one to smithereens- that's not to say they're jerks about it, just that their primary focus is destroying the opponent.
Of course, there's also the fact that at least in the current edition, in several of the missions just killing your opponent is the objective...
Think it's absolutely unfair to blame 40k's current issues at the feet of Jervis.
The design team has had their work filtered and directed by the sales people for many years, hence the game being about as balanced as the hormones of the man/woman who won the Eurovision song contest, the new trends of DLC, and there being a new version released less then two years after the previous one.
I sometimes get the impression things would be worse if he wasn't there... there are so few of the 'old guard' left, the people who built the company into what it is today with their ideas. He's the equivalent of the terrified but well meaning villager leaving offerings to the giant ogre that periodically comes to the village. He could run off (like all of his friends have done) but instead he bravely stands in front of the monster, leaving a few offerings and managing to stop the ogre from smashing the town, and everything they have worked so hard to build, to pieces.
Pacific wrote: Think it's absolutely unfair to blame 40k's current issues at the feet of Jervis.
The design team has had their work filtered and directed by the sales people for many years, hence the game being about as balanced as the hormones of the man/woman who won the Eurovision song contest, the new trends of DLC, and there being a new version released less then two years after the previous one.
I sometimes get the impression things would be worse if he wasn't there... there are so few of the 'old guard' left, the people who built the company into what it is today with their ideas. He's the equivalent of the terrified but well meaning villager leaving offerings to the giant ogre that periodically comes to the village. He could run off (like all of his friends have done) but instead he bravely stands in front of the monster, leaving a few offerings and managing to stop the ogre from smashing the town, and everything they have worked so hard to build, to pieces.
The people that left may have possessed intergity, clarity of vision and or possible even a soul. Jervis is in the video pushing this crap, and he looks tired, very very tired.
Pickup games remain pretty much dead and the balkanisation of gaming groups continues. Hurray for 7th edition.
prowla wrote: I love that the first thing he said was "One of the leading design principles was so that you can use any models you want!"
I don't see a real problem with that as a design goal honestly. The game should let you be able to play things you like.
The flipside is that it needs to balanced well enough to make it work. I mean Warmachine doesn't have a real FOC and it works fine. If 40k was better balanced it could easily do the same without issue.
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MajorStoffer wrote: As a university student, I've long since been atrophied to buying $150+ books in the 2-300 page range I'll only use for 4 months.
I sadly know that feeling all too well. At least, even on a 2 year cycle, GW's books last longer than a semester and cost less.
This game is in desperate need of formatting, just making as all play apocalypse is absurd. This tired man does not seem up to the job, he cares more about his pention and stock options.
In your opinion. Don't assume everyone feels the same. And any legitimacy your post may have had was lost after making personal attacks on someone who helped invent the game in the first place, and including a picture that isn't particularly funny for anyone with a mental age above 5 years old.
It's all about models now. Not units. There isn't even a subtle lie that this is a game anymore. They just want you to buy models and as many models as possible.
My FLGS manager got some info out of his GW rep. Apparently they can spill the beans now, but I only got a bit of new infos about the psychic phase.
At least paste the information... edit: Ahh, he wants blog hits.
I spoke with my FLGS guy who talked to the GW rep this morning. Not all of my questions were answered, but here is what I heard that is not something already all over the internet. This assumes the GW rep had his facts straight, and the FLGS guy relayed them correctly via the game of telephone.
Battle Brothers
Eldar/DE Chaos/Daemons All Imperium
All others were convenience, desperate or apocalypse.
No answer as to whether you can join units of battle brothers.
Psychic Phase
Roll a D6 and add the total mastery levels of all your psykers. You get that many power dice and your opponent gets that many DTW dice.
To cast a power, you need to roll a 4+ for every warp charge of the power you're using. So warp charge 2 = two 4+, meaning you'd need 4 power dice to have an average shot.
Your opponent dispels the power with a roll of a 6 on their dice. So the more dice they have, the more shots they get at rolling that 6 to cancel out that critical power. I was told that the mastery level of the psyker dispelling the power lowers the roll needed to dispel it. So a ML2 psyker dispels on a 5+, ML3 on a 4+. etc...
That is what I was told.
That seems wrong to me because Fateweaver, Eldrad and Ahriman could dispel anything on a 3+. More likely, I would think you compare mastery levels between the casting psyker and the dispelling psyker, and apply a bonus that way. This is conjecture. What I wrote above is what I was told.
What I also don't know is if there is a dice limit a psyker can use to cast or dispel a power based on their mastery level. I also don't know if you need two 6's to dispel a ML2 power. I assume you do.
You would figure Adamantium Will would give you +1 to DTW for powers cast at a unit with that rule.
Jink Save
Jink is a 4+, however it is no longer always on. You must declare a jink to claim it, and if you do so, it's snapshots only in the next phase.
Sweeping Advance
Unchanged. You do not consolidate into a new combat.
And that's all I got that's new! So you can go runtelldat.
My FLGS manager got some info out of his GW rep. Apparently they can spill the beans now, but I only got a bit of new infos about the psychic phase.
If true, the psychic phase is going to suck for my Tau and Dark Eldar. Tau don't have allies? The race that plays nice with everybody doesn't get close allies....huh. I'll take this with some salt until the book drops.
My FLGS manager got some info out of his GW rep. Apparently they can spill the beans now, but I only got a bit of new infos about the psychic phase.
If true, the psychic phase is going to suck for my Tau and Dark Eldar. Tau don't have allies? The race that plays nice with everybody doesn't get close allies....huh. I'll take this with some salt until the book drops.
See my inclination is the new system is bad for psykers because if you get one awesome power and two garbage powers on your ML3 psyker, guess where all the dispel dice are going.
agnosto wrote: Man, that's a whole lot of level 3 psychic powers.
And if the way the powers are used is correct then you need to roll 3+ dice with a 4 or better on each of them to cast the powers. I see lots of dice being thrown to get these off.
agnosto wrote: Man, that's a whole lot of level 3 psychic powers.
And if the way the powers are used is correct then you need to roll 3+ dice with a 4 or better on each of them to cast the powers. I see lots of dice being thrown to get these off.
And my Tau will be able to do nothing about this stuff....gee, I'm facing an army with 20 dice in the psychic phase and I have a maximum of 6...wow.
Okay, loyalists better have no access to that Malefic Daemonology... For CSM it is quite cool (I wonder if Khorne would be okay with a sorcerer summoning his daemons?)
7th ed rules
Mission cards
And Codex Deamons required to use the psychic powers
That start gap grows ever wider still.
Except for the fact you won't need the cards or the daemon codex to play the game. You have to have a Mastery Level 3 psyker to even use most of them. There is more than the malefic psychic chart.
How many 6+ do i need to roll in order to deny a level 3 power. I know they need three 4+ rolls to get the power of does that make me roll three 6+ to deny it? Do I just need one 6+ to deny the power? I play Necrons, Do my tomb spiders need to roll their special denial roll from the pool or is it separate, as far as that goes do they need a 6+ now or still the 4+ they had before? I know other armies have similar rules in them so I think we can see some FAQ action from day one, or at least I hope we do.
Hahahah if the jink rumor turns out to be true, White Scars players who started a WS army just because of how good they were since September 13 took a high five. To the face. With a bat.
7th ed rules
Mission cards
And Codex Deamons required to use the psychic powers
That start gap grows ever wider still.
Except for the fact you won't need the cards or the daemon codex to play the game. You have to have a Mastery Level 3 psyker to even use most of them. There is more than the malefic psychic chart.
Except for the fact that unless they provide the full rules special and statline wise for all those daemons in the BRB. You in fact will need the Codex: Chaos Deamons to make use of the powers of summoning at all.
barko wrote: How many 6+ do i need to roll in order to deny a level 3 power. I know they need three 4+ rolls to get the power of does that make me roll three 6+ to deny it? Do I just need one 6+ to deny the power? I play Necrons, Do my tomb spiders need to roll their special denial roll from the pool or is it separate, as far as that goes do they need a 6+ now or still the 4+ they had before? I know other armies have similar rules in them so I think we can see some FAQ action from day one, or at least I hope we do.
Cursed earth seems to go a long way to making War Talons worth it.
Also, I do like the daemon summoing powers. I am not a fan of the requirement to buy the Chaos Daemons book on top of it, but I understand why they are not included.
"I'm taking only Wyrdvane Psikers and drown eveyrone in Bloodthirtherrs yadda yadda sky is falling" ;-)
I think I like those powers. They are fluffy and not OP. I woldn't take them with loyalists, but for Traitor guard they look nifty.
I can already hear the screams "cash grab! You need the demons dex!" But personally I think it would have been a bad idea to include all demons stats/rules in the BRB.
Of course I'm not happy shelling out a hundred bucks for a new book, but I realy (want to) believe that 7th will be better than 6th and that was my preferred edition by far.
Oh yeah, I forgot the bit about mission cards in my blog post.
You pull three cards from the deck as does your opponent. If you accomplish the objective on the card, you draw another. You always have three cards in hand.
New psyker rules seem like a significant nerf to armies with lots of psykers, if that 4+ thing is correct. You need two or three dice to have a similar chance of casting a mastery level 1 power. Once you've got more than a couple of mastery levels in your army, they become less effective than they are now. Astra Militarum players are probably hit hardest by that.
Not sure how things are likely to go with builds that rely heavily on one power. On the one hand, it's simple enough to put plenty of dice into the one you want, but on the other it might also be easy enough to block it with Deny the Witch.
Looks like Malefic Daemonology is pretty much what people were afraid of. At least it doesn't force you to randomise the type of daemon you get.
Cursed Ground seems like it will be part of some nasty combos, thanks to stacking. Whether that means Daemon based deathstars are still viable depends to be seen. Will make Daemon Engines and Obliterators especially tough.
Sanctic Daemonology might offer counters to that kind of thing though, through debuffs to Daemon saves or something.
Psychic shooting attacks seem to still be terribly underwhelming. You effectively end up paying 25 points for something little more impressive than a combi-weapon.
And I have to say I absolutely love the look of the new book. I think they got a little too excited about being able to do everything in full colour for sixth edition and forgot that 'less is often more'. This one looks sharp as hell.
slaede wrote: Oh yeah, I forgot the bit about mission cards in my blog post.
You pull three cards from the deck as does your opponent. If you accomplish the objective on the card, you draw another. You always have three cards in hand.
7th ed rules
Mission cards
And Codex Deamons required to use the psychic powers
That start gap grows ever wider still.
Except for the fact you won't need the cards or the daemon codex to play the game. You have to have a Mastery Level 3 psyker to even use most of them. There is more than the malefic psychic chart.
Except for the fact that unless they provide the full rules special and statline wise for all those daemons in the BRB. You in fact will need the Codex: Chaos Deamons to make use of the powers of summoning at all.
Except for the fact the Malefic powers aren't required to play the game.
barko wrote: How many 6+ do i need to roll in order to deny a level 3 power. I know they need three 4+ rolls to get the power of does that make me roll three 6+ to deny it? Do I just need one 6+ to deny the power? I play Necrons, Do my tomb spiders need to roll their special denial roll from the pool or is it separate, as far as that goes do they need a 6+ now or still the 4+ they had before? I know other armies have similar rules in them so I think we can see some FAQ action from day one, or at least I hope we do.
slaede wrote: Oh yeah, I forgot the bit about mission cards in my blog post.
You pull three cards from the deck as does your opponent. If you accomplish the objective on the card, you draw another. You always have three cards in hand.
Do you have to reveal cards?
I wasn't told that. I assume you would have to do that.
And I have to say I absolutely love the look of the new book. I think they got a little too excited about being able to do everything in full colour for sixth edition and forgot that 'less is often more'. This one looks sharp as hell.
barko wrote: How many 6+ do i need to roll in order to deny a level 3 power. I know they need three 4+ rolls to get the power of does that make me roll three 6+ to deny it? Do I just need one 6+ to deny the power? I play Necrons, Do my tomb spiders need to roll their special denial roll from the pool or is it separate, as far as that goes do they need a 6+ now or still the 4+ they had before? I know other armies have similar rules in them so I think we can see some FAQ action from day one, or at least I hope we do.
slaede wrote: Oh yeah, I forgot the bit about mission cards in my blog post.
You pull three cards from the deck as does your opponent. If you accomplish the objective on the card, you draw another. You always have three cards in hand.
Do you have to reveal cards?
I wasn't told that. I assume you would have to do that.
Or one for each 4+ your opponent rolls. If they are taking a WHFB approach, they might take the "add more dice to try and force it through while putting yourself at further risk of Perils" mechanic.
7th ed rules Mission cards And Codex Deamons required to use the psychic powers
That start gap grows ever wider still.
Except for the fact you won't need the cards or the daemon codex to play the game. You have to have a Mastery Level 3 psyker to even use most of them. There is more than the malefic psychic chart.
Except for the fact that unless they provide the full rules special and statline wise for all those daemons in the BRB. You in fact will need the Codex: Chaos Deamons to make use of the powers of summoning at all.
Except for the fact the Malefic powers aren't required to play the game.
But being cut off from using a power you have access to because you don't wanna buy a codex is just a ok when you already pay a premium for the basic rules. Yup gotcha. Here's your hamburger and french fries but if you eat any fries its an extra 60 bucks.
My FLGS manager got some info out of his GW rep. Apparently they can spill the beans now, but I only got a bit of new infos about the psychic phase.
At least paste the information... edit: Ahh, he wants blog hits.
I spoke with my FLGS guy who talked to the GW rep this morning. Not all of my questions were answered, but here is what I heard that is not something already all over the internet. This assumes the GW rep had his facts straight, and the FLGS guy relayed them correctly via the game of telephone.
Battle Brothers
Eldar/DE Chaos/Daemons All Imperium
All others were convenience, desperate or apocalypse.
No answer as to whether you can join units of battle brothers.
Psychic Phase
Roll a D6 and add the total mastery levels of all your psykers. You get that many power dice and your opponent gets that many DTW dice.
To cast a power, you need to roll a 4+ for every warp charge of the power you're using. So warp charge 2 = two 4+, meaning you'd need 4 power dice to have an average shot.
Your opponent dispels the power with a roll of a 6 on their dice. So the more dice they have, the more shots they get at rolling that 6 to cancel out that critical power. I was told that the mastery level of the psyker dispelling the power lowers the roll needed to dispel it. So a ML2 psyker dispels on a 5+, ML3 on a 4+. etc...
That is what I was told.
That seems wrong to me because Fateweaver, Eldrad and Ahriman could dispel anything on a 3+. More likely, I would think you compare mastery levels between the casting psyker and the dispelling psyker, and apply a bonus that way. This is conjecture. What I wrote above is what I was told.
What I also don't know is if there is a dice limit a psyker can use to cast or dispel a power based on their mastery level. I also don't know if you need two 6's to dispel a ML2 power. I assume you do.
You would figure Adamantium Will would give you +1 to DTW for powers cast at a unit with that rule.
Jink Save
Jink is a 4+, however it is no longer always on. You must declare a jink to claim it, and if you do so, it's snapshots only in the next phase.
Sweeping Advance
Unchanged. You do not consolidate into a new combat.
And that's all I got that's new! So you can go runtelldat.
No BB for Tau... but that makes sense. Taudar lists got some shaft, as Centurion stars now rely on Loth or Mantis Warriors Libs. I'd like to see them as the kings of Allies of Convenience.
Both sides get the same number of dice in psychic phase. That's cool! Casting on 4+ for each 'Warp Charge' is nice as well. Who could tell, Fatey, Eldrad and Ahriman play Blue decks.
Now Jink is WAY more balanced. On the other hand, focus firing Centurions and bypassing LANGUAGE! in his bike won't be a possibility (why would a 2+/3++ model turn jink on?)
No change to consolidation... it would be nice to have.
Remember: The language filter is a convenience, not an excuse - you're still responsible for your posts. --Janthkin
But being cut off from using a power you have access to because you don't wanna buy a codex is just a ok when you already pay a premium for the basic rules. Yup gotcha. Here's your hamburger and french fries but if you eat any fries its an extra 60 bucks.
Except the demon models basic statlines aside from special rules are in the rulebook in 6th in the back?
My FLGS manager got some info out of his GW rep. Apparently they can spill the beans now, but I only got a bit of new infos about the psychic phase.
At least paste the information... edit: Ahh, he wants blog hits.
I spoke with my FLGS guy who talked to the GW rep this morning. Not all of my questions were answered, but here is what I heard that is not something already all over the internet. This assumes the GW rep had his facts straight, and the FLGS guy relayed them correctly via the game of telephone.
Battle Brothers
Eldar/DE Chaos/Daemons
All Imperium
All others were convenience, desperate or apocalypse.
No answer as to whether you can join units of battle brothers.
Psychic Phase
Roll a D6 and add the total mastery levels of all your psykers. You get that many power dice and your opponent gets that many DTW dice.
To cast a power, you need to roll a 4+ for every warp charge of the power you're using. So warp charge 2 = two 4+, meaning you'd need 4 power dice to have an average shot.
Your opponent dispels the power with a roll of a 6 on their dice. So the more dice they have, the more shots they get at rolling that 6 to cancel out that critical power. I was told that the mastery level of the psyker dispelling the power lowers the roll needed to dispel it. So a ML2 psyker dispels on a 5+, ML3 on a 4+. etc...
That is what I was told.
That seems wrong to me because Fateweaver, Eldrad and Ahriman could dispel anything on a 3+. More likely, I would think you compare mastery levels between the casting psyker and the dispelling psyker, and apply a bonus that way. This is conjecture. What I wrote above is what I was told.
What I also don't know is if there is a dice limit a psyker can use to cast or dispel a power based on their mastery level. I also don't know if you need two 6's to dispel a ML2 power. I assume you do.
You would figure Adamantium Will would give you +1 to DTW for powers cast at a unit with that rule.
Jink Save
Jink is a 4+, however it is no longer always on. You must declare a jink to claim it, and if you do so, it's snapshots only in the next phase.
Sweeping Advance
Unchanged. You do not consolidate into a new combat.
And that's all I got that's new! So you can go runtelldat.
No BB for Tau... but that makes sense. Taudar lists got some shaft, as Centurion stars now rely on Loth or Mantis Warriors Libs. I'd like to see them as the kings of Allies of Convenience.
That throne belongs to IG and I doubt they will be giving it up. There is a fluff reason for IG to ally with every faction. Not so with everyone else.
So seem this table is largely going to stick to CSM and daemons. Besides that, the only people that can cast this spell are named HQs ofr SM and Eldar.
My math isn't up to figuring out the odds of rolling three 4+ results on n dice, but I think it's pretty difficult. If rolling lots of dice means a significantly higher risk of perils, that's even worse.
But being cut off from using a power you have access to because you don't wanna buy a codex is just a ok when you already pay a premium for the basic rules. Yup gotcha. Here's your hamburger and french fries but if you eat any fries its an extra 60 bucks.
Except the demon models basic statlines aside from special rules are in the rulebook in 6th in the back?
The special rules are a big part though. You would need the "daemon of _____" special rules, and in the case of horrors, their psychic powers.
But being cut off from using a power you have access to because you don't wanna buy a codex is just a ok when you already pay a premium for the basic rules. Yup gotcha. Here's your hamburger and french fries but if you eat any fries its an extra 60 bucks.
Except the demon models basic statlines aside from special rules are in the rulebook in 6th in the back?
The special rules are a big part though. You would need the "daemon of _____" special rules, and in the case of horrors, their psychic powers.
True, but you dont need the Daemon Codex just for the basic model stats, which I believe said poster was complaining about.
But being cut off from using a power you have access to because you don't wanna buy a codex is just a ok when you already pay a premium for the basic rules. Yup gotcha. Here's your hamburger and french fries but if you eat any fries its an extra 60 bucks.
Except the demon models basic statlines aside from special rules are in the rulebook in 6th in the back?
The special rules are a big part though. You would need the "daemon of _____" special rules, and in the case of horrors, their psychic powers.
True, but you dont need the Daemon Codex just for the basic model stats, which I believe said poster was complaining about.
Special rules yea, not not basic statlines
Actually not having the special rules is what I'm most upset by with this. There's no reason to try for daemons at all if you don't have their special rules. Not to mention don't they have the instability chart?
7th ed rules
Mission cards
And Codex Deamons required to use the psychic powers
That start gap grows ever wider still.
Except for the fact you won't need the cards or the daemon codex to play the game. You have to have a Mastery Level 3 psyker to even use most of them. There is more than the malefic psychic chart.
Except for the fact that unless they provide the full rules special and statline wise for all those daemons in the BRB. You in fact will need the Codex: Chaos Deamons to make use of the powers of summoning at all.
Except for the fact the Malefic powers aren't required to play the game.
But being cut off from using a power you have access to because you don't wanna buy a codex is just a ok when you already pay a premium for the basic rules. Yup gotcha. Here's your hamburger and french fries but if you eat any fries its an extra 60 bucks.
So they should reprint the complete rules section oft the demons Codex in the BRB? Hat would be just Plain stupid not only FrOm business perspective but also from a development perspective. never have the same stuff in 2 places because then it is way harder to change. besides, fluff bunnies probably alrleady habe the demons dex and TFGs deserve to be Milked :-)
I think the Malefic stuff is only a problem from the perspective that if it's dominant and top-tier competitive (whatever that means anymore) then it leaves players who didn't purchase the additional rules out in the cold.
People can (or...could) ignore the expansions like Escalation, and it was always easy enough to justify ignoring it. Ignoring Malefic psychic powers is a whole different thing.
Happygrunt wrote: That throne belongs to IG and I doubt they will be giving it up. There is a fluff reason for IG to ally with every faction. Not so with everyone else.
Right now Astra Militarum has only 6 Allies of Convenience options, while Tau has 8. The kings, however, are Eldar and GK armies: 10 choices (half of them). Gk with so many AoC doesn't make much sense; Eldar do, but Tau is much more prone to work with others AND depart in good terms. IG as well, but by the last snippet of info, Imperials are all BBs with each other - and IG already is (except with GK).
unmercifulconker wrote: Really like those malefic powers, hopefully only chaos can get em. Perhaps its time to convert the all khorne army to word bearers.
To be honest I can't see anybody else using them that much. The primaris often influences who will field it but the question becomes... how many ML3+ psykers are there in the game? Daemons can get them easily, CSM can easily, Eldar can, and named characters of the SM (1 each) can get this. Besides that, I think the last one is brotherhood of psykers IG maybe? Out of the rules, you can't even use the primaris which means you have to roll a 1d6 until you get 1, 2, 3, or 4 as those are the only ones you can cast without having 3 charges. It buffs daemons? Of no use to anybody but a chaos force. 2 is crummy, 3 could be useful for popping tanks, and conjuration really only helps daemons as they can't join any other unit. The concept is to summon a horde, then conjure a herald to lead them afterall
Ok. So we need as many successful denials as the psychers have successful castings. For example for a level two power a psycher rolls four dice and gets 1,3,5,5 since two of the four are 4+ the power works and in order to deny it I need to roll six dice in order to have a real chance at a successful denial. I can just roll one and hope for the unlikely result of six. that makes the psychic powers seem so much worse than I had thought.
I am wondering, If the patrons of Dakka were to write our own rule book for miniatures what would it look like and considering how many people there are could we make it be 1) better than the 7th ed 40K book and 2) make it ready for download before the 24th?
I think it will take us (by that i mean Warhammer players) working together to stop buying new stuff and all of us sending letters to GW telling them why we stopped buying their product to get any change from them. The big boyz at GW may be able to turn a blind eye to the forums of a few sites but dismissing a huge pile of letters on the desk and a blank spot where the piles of cash used to be is something else.
unmercifulconker wrote: Really like those malefic powers, hopefully only chaos can get em. Perhaps its time to convert the all khorne army to word bearers.
To be honest I can't see anybody else using them that much. The primaris often influences who will field it but the question becomes... how many ML3+ psykers are there in the game? Daemons can get them easily, CSM can easily, Eldar can, and named characters of the SM (1 each) can get this. Besides that, I think the last one is brotherhood of psykers IG maybe? Out of the rules, you can't even use the primaris which means you have to roll a 1d6 until you get 1, 2, 3, or 4 as those are the only ones you can cast without having 3 charges. It buffs daemons? Of no use to anybody but a chaos force. 2 is crummy, 3 could be useful for popping tanks, and conjuration really only helps daemons as they can't join any other unit. The concept is to summon a horde, then conjure a herald to lead them afterall
This assumes that you aren't able to select/cast spells with Warp Charges in excess of your Mastery Level. With you generating a pool of dice that mechanic may no longer be in place.
So seem this table is largely going to stick to CSM and daemons. Besides that, the only people that can cast this spell are named HQs ofr SM and Eldar.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if mastery level no longer restricts use of powers anymore - you just get to make fewer random power rolls at the start of the game and get less guaranteed warp charges to activate them with.
unmercifulconker wrote: Really like those malefic powers, hopefully only chaos can get em. Perhaps its time to convert the all khorne army to word bearers.
To be honest I can't see anybody else using them that much. The primaris often influences who will field it but the question becomes... how many ML3+ psykers are there in the game? Daemons can get them easily, CSM can easily, Eldar can, and named characters of the SM (1 each) can get this. Besides that, I think the last one is brotherhood of psykers IG maybe? Out of the rules, you can't even use the primaris which means you have to roll a 1d6 until you get 1, 2, 3, or 4 as those are the only ones you can cast without having 3 charges. It buffs daemons? Of no use to anybody but a chaos force. 2 is crummy, 3 could be useful for popping tanks, and conjuration really only helps daemons as they can't join any other unit. The concept is to summon a horde, then conjure a herald to lead them afterall
This assumes that you aren't able to select/cast spells with Warp Charges in excess of your Mastery Level. With you generating a pool of dice that mechanic may no longer be in place.
My thoughts exactly. ML may just add to the dice pool and doesn't restrict what powers you can use. Low ML may make perils worse for you, high ML may mitigate perils.
unmercifulconker wrote: Really like those malefic powers, hopefully only chaos can get em. Perhaps its time to convert the all khorne army to word bearers.
To be honest I can't see anybody else using them that much. The primaris often influences who will field it but the question becomes... how many ML3+ psykers are there in the game? Daemons can get them easily, CSM can easily, Eldar can, and named characters of the SM (1 each) can get this. Besides that, I think the last one is brotherhood of psykers IG maybe? Out of the rules, you can't even use the primaris which means you have to roll a 1d6 until you get 1, 2, 3, or 4 as those are the only ones you can cast without having 3 charges. It buffs daemons? Of no use to anybody but a chaos force. 2 is crummy, 3 could be useful for popping tanks, and conjuration really only helps daemons as they can't join any other unit. The concept is to summon a horde, then conjure a herald to lead them afterall
Relatively few armies are going to be able to muster the warp charge necessary to cast those Malefic powers assuming you need three 4+ rolls to cast many of them if I was told correctly. IG, CSM, GK, Daemons and Eldar are the only armies with a realistic chance. Hell, IG would need two ML2 Primaris Psykers and an ML1 to be guaranteed the 6 dice necessary to cast a warp charge 3 power, and 6 dice is no guarantee.
So seem this table is largely going to stick to CSM and daemons. Besides that, the only people that can cast this spell are named HQs ofr SM and Eldar.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if mastery level no longer restricts use of powers anymore - you just get to make fewer random power rolls at the start of the game and get less guaranteed warp charges to activate them with.
Probably true considering the Primaris for malefic is warp charge 3.
7th ed rules
Mission cards
And Codex Deamons required to use the psychic powers
That start gap grows ever wider still.
Except for the fact you won't need the cards or the daemon codex to play the game. You have to have a Mastery Level 3 psyker to even use most of them. There is more than the malefic psychic chart.
Except for the fact that unless they provide the full rules special and statline wise for all those daemons in the BRB. You in fact will need the Codex: Chaos Deamons to make use of the powers of summoning at all.
Except for the fact the Malefic powers aren't required to play the game.
But being cut off from using a power you have access to because you don't wanna buy a codex is just a ok when you already pay a premium for the basic rules. Yup gotcha. Here's your hamburger and french fries but if you eat any fries its an extra 60 bucks.
Your metaphor is terrible. There's a whole menu, and you can spend whatever you want to get what you want. No one's forcing you to use malefic powers. My tyranid codex has all these units in it, but to use them I have to buy them! What a rip-off! If you want to summon daemons with your CSM, you might want to know what you're summoning.
agnosto wrote: Man, that's a whole lot of level 3 psychic powers.
And if the way the powers are used is correct then you need to roll 3+ dice with a 4 or better on each of them to cast the powers. I see lots of dice being thrown to get these off.
And my Tau will be able to do nothing about this stuff....gee, I'm facing an army with 20 dice in the psychic phase and I have a maximum of 6...wow.
Of course we'll be able to. For every die the enemy arm gets, the opponent get as many for DtW. They get 20+ dice to cast, we get 20+ dice to deny.
Eldarain wrote: Is the "Sacrifice" power the first time you can spawn a unit and make wargear choices mid-game?
If the Herald and his Portalglyph/Grimoire die could you then summon a new one with a replacement Portalglyph/Grimoire?
Strange Times.
A unit of Plaguebearers with Herald of Nurgle (Greater Locus of Fecundity) can be a safe haven for Sacrifice. Cast it and try to sacrifice one of them. FnP isn't a save! (unless they change it). Epidemius can work as well, if you manage to collect 21 wounds (FnP 4+ within 6" of him). Oh well, Biomancy to help other folks as CSM. Can be used for Possession as well, if it nets you a Perils.
A guy wanting to grab Possession could field naked ML 3 psykers. 5 Heralds of Tzeentch suddenly become 5 LoCs! THE CHANGE HAS SPOKEN!
The rule book part seems to be big, but if they included Escalation and Stronghold content in there, I guess its going to count for an important part of the book.
People seem to be assuming that only ML 3 Psykers can cast Level 3 powers. I don't see any reason why that would be the case. More likely, you can push any number of dice you like through a psyker and ML only affects the number of powers they have and the number of dice they add to the pool.
How good summoning will be very much depends on the Deny the Witch mechanics. If it's difficult to deny a high-level power, then it's pretty powerful. 100 points of extra guys each turn is a big deal. If it's no harder to stop than a low-level power, then it's only ever going to happen once in a blue moon.
paqman wrote: The rule book part seems to be big, but if they included Escalation and Stronghold content in there, I guess its going to count for an important part of the book.
Still doesn't excuse it for being a 200 page novel to play a game.
I mean, I'm no game-ologist or anything, but I'm fairly certain 40k has a lot of room for excess fat to be cut and simplified.
Relatively few armies are going to be able to muster the warp charge necessary to cast those Malefic powers assuming you need three 4+ rolls to cast many of them if I was told correctly. IG, CSM, GK, Daemons and Eldar are the only armies with a realistic chance. Hell, IG would need two ML2 Primaris Psykers and an ML1 to be guaranteed the 6 dice necessary to cast a warp charge 3 power, and 6 dice is no guarantee.
What about one army....
1) Take an unbound list containing loads of Tzeentch heralds upgraded to ML3.
2) Replace any rolls of Dark Flame / Infernal Gaze with Summoning.
3) Use your massive pool of warp charge to stack Cursed Earth and protect your units with rerollable 2++, while you summon various Daemons.
4) Sacrifice any Horrors summoned into more ML3 Heralds
5) Ruin everything with free Flamers and Greater Daemons.
Perfect Organism wrote: People seem to be assuming that only ML 3 Psykers can cast Level 3 powers. I don't see any reason why that would be the case. More likely, you can push any number of dice you like through a psyker and ML only affects the number of powers they have and the number of dice they add to the pool.
Hum, that's a good point. Don't know if they kept the rule regarding that. Well, then it becomes even cheaper to. Well, without rewards (looks like only summoned Heralds come with those), Bloodthirsters become a viable choice for Possession. Hm... I hoope they remember to add rules about summoned psykers - do they roll for powers?
paqman wrote: The rule book part seems to be big, but if they included Escalation and Stronghold content in there, I guess its going to count for an important part of the book.
Still doesn't excuse it for being a 200 page novel to play a game.
I mean, I'm no game-ologist or anything, but I'm fairly certain 40k has a lot of room for excess fat to be cut and simplified.
75 pages of pictures, 50 pages of tables, the rest is rules.
Relatively few armies are going to be able to muster the warp charge necessary to cast those Malefic powers assuming you need three 4+ rolls to cast many of them if I was told correctly. IG, CSM, GK, Daemons and Eldar are the only armies with a realistic chance. Hell, IG would need two ML2 Primaris Psykers and an ML1 to be guaranteed the 6 dice necessary to cast a warp charge 3 power, and 6 dice is no guarantee.
What about one army....
1) Take an unbound list containing loads of Tzeentch heralds upgraded to ML3.
2) Replace any rolls of Dark Flame / Infernal Gaze with Summoning.
3) Use your massive pool of warp charge to stack Cursed Earth and protect your units with rerollable 2++, while you summon various Daemons.
4) Sacrifice any Horrors summoned into more ML3 Heralds
5) Ruin everything with free Flamers and Greater Daemons.
The only time you'll be seeing unbound armies is when someone like me wants to field all my Maulerfiends, Seeker Chariots, Soul Grinders, Forgefiends, Predators, etc... in a fun lulzy list. And I will tell you before I do it. All this crap about ten Riptides is not happening in tournaments, and anyone who brings that to a friendly pick up game has a tiny wenis.
Perfect Organism wrote: People seem to be assuming that only ML 3 Psykers can cast Level 3 powers. I don't see any reason why that would be the case. More likely, you can push any number of dice you like through a psyker and ML only affects the number of powers they have and the number of dice they add to the pool.
How good summoning will be very much depends on the Deny the Witch mechanics. If it's difficult to deny a high-level power, then it's pretty powerful. 100 points of extra guys each turn is a big deal. If it's no harder to stop than a low-level power, then it's only ever going to happen once in a blue moon.
Exactly. Seems like ML just adds to your dice pool. ML1 can still cast higher level powers as long as there's enough dice in the pool.
paqman wrote: The rule book part seems to be big, but if they included Escalation and Stronghold content in there, I guess its going to count for an important part of the book.
Still doesn't excuse it for being a 200 page novel to play a game.
I mean, I'm no game-ologist or anything, but I'm fairly certain 40k has a lot of room for excess fat to be cut and simplified.
75 pages of pictures, 50 pages of tables, the rest is rules.
</snark>
You forgot the 25 pages on how to properly Forge a Narrative. Can't be doing it all willy-nilly.
paqman wrote: The rule book part seems to be big, but if they included Escalation and Stronghold content in there, I guess its going to count for an important part of the book.
Still doesn't excuse it for being a 200 page novel to play a game.
I mean, I'm no game-ologist or anything, but I'm fairly certain 40k has a lot of room for excess fat to be cut and simplified.
Especially when we compare this with the small 5th edition book that came with AoBR which was very small.
ClockworkZion wrote: [
That was always less of a "bro-fist" than the internet made it out to be.
True. Bascially, BA were getting their ass kicked by Tyranids. Necrons showed up and attacked the bigger threat. They then slaughtered the BA and only very few escaped. Less bro-fist, more BA getting their emo butts kicked by badass killer robots.
Ifurita wrote:I guess unbound will finally let people run their genestealer cult lists.
Probably not. Unbound is still limited by the allies chart, so unless there have been changes to the out-in-the-cold Tyranids, no genestealer cults outside of Apoc.
Perfect Organism wrote:New psyker rules seem like a significant nerf to armies with lots of psykers, if that 4+ thing is correct. You need two or three dice to have a similar chance of casting a mastery level 1 power. Once you've got more than a couple of mastery levels in your army, they become less effective than they are now. Astra Militarum players are probably hit hardest by that.
Not sure how things are likely to go with builds that rely heavily on one power. On the one hand, it's simple enough to put plenty of dice into the one you want, but on the other it might also be easy enough to block it with Deny the Witch.
Looks like Malefic Daemonology is pretty much what people were afraid of. At least it doesn't force you to randomise the type of daemon you get.
Cursed Ground seems like it will be part of some nasty combos, thanks to stacking. Whether that means Daemon based deathstars are still viable depends to be seen. Will make Daemon Engines and Obliterators especially tough.
Sanctic Daemonology might offer counters to that kind of thing though, through debuffs to Daemon saves or something.
Psychic shooting attacks seem to still be terribly underwhelming. You effectively end up paying 25 points for something little more impressive than a combi-weapon.
I think we'll see a nerf in general to psyhic powers. Just the fact that it looks like any of them can be canceled by anyone is a nerf compared to DtW-free Blessings and such.
For builds relying on specific powers, I think you'll see what you sometimes see in the WHFB magic phase. You see lots of small powers getting cast to try to draw out dice. Your opponent (who generally has less dice than you do in WHFB) has to decide between letting stuff through just in case you cast an uber spell, or risking the uber spell and blocking the little stuff that adds up.
Anti-psychic things like Deny the Witch and Shadow in the Warp, not to mention Psychic Hoods, will be the big thing to watch though.
Cursed Ground is definitely one of the powers to watch for, and if you're playing Malefic Daemonlogy, I think makes for an interesting "draw dice" spell. It's WC 1, so can be cast with a single die. Does your opponent throw dice at it, or save some in case you try to summon a bunch of daemons? To me, that's an interesting choice. Maybe I'm just crazy though.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:So, cursed earth is basically here to ensure screamerstar stays the same, while dark flame and infernal gaze are stupidly underpowered ?
lol.
You get a chance to stop the power now, so that's more than you had with other things.
Eldarain wrote:Is the "Sacrifice" power the first time you can spawn a unit and make wargear choices mid-game?
If the Herald and his Portalglyph/Grimoire die could you then summon a new one with a replacement Portalglyph/Grimoire?
Strange Times.
Yeah, that's pretty strange. Skaven in WHFB can turn units into Clan Rats with any available options, but there are no points limits on that; just what models you have available. Their gear is also way less important than a Herald's wargear in 40k though.
paqman wrote: The rule book part seems to be big, but if they included Escalation and Stronghold content in there, I guess its going to count for an important part of the book.
Still doesn't excuse it for being a 200 page novel to play a game.
I mean, I'm no game-ologist or anything, but I'm fairly certain 40k has a lot of room for excess fat to be cut and simplified.
75 pages of pictures, 50 pages of tables, the rest is rules.
</snark>
You forgot the 25 pages on how to properly Forge a Narrative. Can't be doing it all willy-nilly.
Who knows... there might be erratas in there to support the previous codexes due to radical changes in stat lines! ....
Perfect Organism wrote: People seem to be assuming that only ML 3 Psykers can cast Level 3 powers. I don't see any reason why that would be the case. More likely, you can push any number of dice you like through a psyker and ML only affects the number of powers they have and the number of dice they add to the pool.
How good summoning will be very much depends on the Deny the Witch mechanics. If it's difficult to deny a high-level power, then it's pretty powerful. 100 points of extra guys each turn is a big deal. If it's no harder to stop than a low-level power, then it's only ever going to happen once in a blue moon.
Daemons summoning pink horrors to add extra dice to your psyker charge?
1) Take an unbound list containing loads of Tzeentch heralds upgraded to ML3.
2) Replace any rolls of Dark Flame / Infernal Gaze with Summoning.
3) Use your massive pool of warp charge to stack Cursed Earth and protect your units with rerollable 2++, while you summon various Daemons.
4) Sacrifice any Horrors summoned into more ML3 Heralds
5) Ruin everything with free Flamers and Greater Daemons.
But seriously I'm actually getting really REALLY excited about 7th Ed now. Having what will probably be my last game of 6th Ed tonight. Sad times. Just made a Biker Lord of Chaos with retinue too. Hopefully the Jink is the only change there.
unmercifulconker wrote: Really like those malefic powers, hopefully only chaos can get em. Perhaps its time to convert the all khorne army to word bearers.
To be honest I can't see anybody else using them that much. The primaris often influences who will field it but the question becomes... how many ML3+ psykers are there in the game? Daemons can get them easily, CSM can easily, Eldar can, and named characters of the SM (1 each) can get this. Besides that, I think the last one is brotherhood of psykers IG maybe? Out of the rules, you can't even use the primaris which means you have to roll a 1d6 until you get 1, 2, 3, or 4 as those are the only ones you can cast without having 3 charges. It buffs daemons? Of no use to anybody but a chaos force. 2 is crummy, 3 could be useful for popping tanks, and conjuration really only helps daemons as they can't join any other unit. The concept is to summon a horde, then conjure a herald to lead them afterall
Relatively few armies are going to be able to muster the warp charge necessary to cast those Malefic powers assuming you need three 4+ rolls to cast many of them if I was told correctly. IG, CSM, GK, Daemons and Eldar are the only armies with a realistic chance. Hell, IG would need two ML2 Primaris Psykers and an ML1 to be guaranteed the 6 dice necessary to cast a warp charge 3 power, and 6 dice is no guarantee.
Read the rules that are linked there. You can cast any of those powers even with a Mastery Level 1 Psyker. The amount of Warp Charge you generate is d6 plus the combined Mastery Level of all the Psykers in your list, which creates a pool of Power Dice which you roll. So a single Level 1 Psyker could potentially get off even those Warp Charge 3 powers.
Read the rules that are linked there. You can cast any of those powers even with a Mastery Level 1 Psyker. The amount of Warp Charge you generate is d6 plus the combined Mastery Level of all the Psykers in your list, which creates a pool of Power Dice which you roll. So a single Level 1 Psyker could potentially get off even those Warp Charge 3 powers.
Except that only a ML 3 psyker can take ML 3 powers in all likelihood.
ClockworkZion wrote: [
That was always less of a "bro-fist" than the internet made it out to be.
True. Bascially, BA were getting their ass kicked by Tyranids. Necrons showed up and attacked the bigger threat. They then slaughtered the BA and only very few escaped. Less bro-fist, more BA getting their emo butts kicked by badass killer robots.
A little backwards actually. BA and Crons were kicking each other's asses in and then Nids showed up and they stopped shooting at each other and shot the Nids instead. Once the Nids were all dead they both were so destroyed they parted ways.
I second that! I've tried searching for it but Google is giving me nothing. I guess they haven't crawled it yet or it's not labelled like I think it is.
Are any Tau players worried about their Hammerheads? We suddenly no longer have access to any jink saves of any sort and have to hide our tanks behind conventional buildings once more....the D-pod is only useful for devilfish now.
It sucks that while jink has improved to 4+ (3+ with D-pods), declaring to use it will mean you can only make snapshots next turn.
I guess this makes markerlight spam even more necessary to correct your BS.
Sir Arun wrote: Hahahah if the jink rumor turns out to be true, White Scars players who started a WS army just because of how good they were since September 13 took a high five. To the face. With a bat.
First, I had my all bike force since 5th (it's fun). But this is not a nerf... at all. +1 better cover save than before?! It's always massive amounts of small fire or big blasts from afar that mess up bikes. Only if you can't assault after a jink will this nerf bike lists enough to matter... or if turbo doesn't improve it by 1. But savy Black Knights and WS players are going to get to their targets better than before.
I want to know if intervening models went down to a +4 too. If they did, bikes are way better than ever.
Sir Arun wrote: Are any Tau players worried about their Hammerheads? We suddenly no longer have access to any jink saves of any sort and have to hide our tanks behind conventional buildings once more....the D-pod is only useful for devilfish now.
It sucks that while jink has improved to 4+ (3+ with D-pods), declaring to use it will mean you can only make snapshots next turn.
I guess this makes markerlight spam even more necessary to correct your BS.
At least we got ML for target correction. Eldar will need to rely more on Divination (as if it was possible), SM's Land Speeders are a bit screwed (unless you're one of those not vanilla flavoured SMs, or Loth/Mantis Warriors).
Grab Sensor Spines and Disruption Pods. Enter difficult terrain. 4+ cover and shoot as normal (I'd like to see vehicles firing weapons independently and with lighter rules regarding movement and shooting, but I won't expect to see those)
Eldar will need to rely more on Divination (as if it was possible), SM's Land Speeders are a bit screwed (unless you're one of those not vanilla flavoured SMs, or Loth/Mantis Warriors).
Seems like Dark Eldar craft and bikes are rather hosed as well.
The screenshots for the transports are in the Jervis video. Basically they are considered the same part of the force org chart as the unit for which they were purchased.
Without knowing any other rules concerning vehicles, Wave Serpents, Rhinos, Drop Pods and Land Raiders purchased for troops are considered troops and therefore have Objective Secured in a Battle Forged list.
Eldar will need to rely more on Divination (as if it was possible), SM's Land Speeders are a bit screwed (unless you're one of those not vanilla flavoured SMs, or Loth/Mantis Warriors).
Seems like Dark Eldar craft and bikes are rather hosed as well.
Yes, but as they usually don't possess any help for shooting, I didn't address those. Necrons too have skimmers, but they ahve some twin-linked stuff
Now, with Eldar/DE still as BBs, Raiders/boats with re-rolling even with jink will be cruel.
slaede wrote: The screenshots for the transports are in the Jervis video. Basically they are considered the same part of the force org chart as the unit for which they were purchased.
Without knowing any other rules concerning vehicles, Wave Serpents, Rhinos, Drop Pods and Land Raiders purchased for troops are considered troops and therefore have Objective Secured in a Battle Forged list.
That is unless the vehicle rules still say they aren't scoring. We do have non-scoring Troops options in the game after all.
slaede wrote: The screenshots for the transports are in the Jervis video. Basically they are considered the same part of the force org chart as the unit for which they were purchased.
Without knowing any other rules concerning vehicles, Wave Serpents, Rhinos, Drop Pods and Land Raiders purchased for troops are considered troops and therefore have Objective Secured in a Battle Forged list.
They already are now, so DT for heavy support units give up extra VP's in big guns and are scoring in big guns. The troop DT's were never allowed to score in 6th.
Relatively few armies are going to be able to muster the warp charge necessary to cast those Malefic powers assuming you need three 4+ rolls to cast many of them if I was told correctly. IG, CSM, GK, Daemons and Eldar are the only armies with a realistic chance. Hell, IG would need two ML2 Primaris Psykers and an ML1 to be guaranteed the 6 dice necessary to cast a warp charge 3 power, and 6 dice is no guarantee.
What about one army....
1) Take an unbound list containing loads of Tzeentch heralds upgraded to ML3.
2) Replace any rolls of Dark Flame / Infernal Gaze with Summoning.
3) Use your massive pool of warp charge to stack Cursed Earth and protect your units with rerollable 2++, while you summon various Daemons.
4) Sacrifice any Horrors summoned into more ML3 Heralds
5) Ruin everything with free Flamers and Greater Daemons.
Well, for a start, you can only get a ML 2 Herald with 30 points of upgrades...
A ML 2 Herald gives you two casting dice. That's enough for one level one power on average. You probably need about seven or eight warp charges just to keep summoning one extra unit a turn. Investing around 1,000 points in your daemon generator, you start with the ability to summon maybe three or four units a turn and it seems very likely that at least one of those castings is going to be denied even by an enemy who didn't bring psychic defences. So, you get around 25% return on your investment per turn at best and if you want to get more heralds it becomes less efficient, because you only get 70 points of herald instead of 90 points of pink horrors per summoning and you have to sacrifice a model for it. That brings your returns down to maybe 15-20% per turn.
Summoning 100 points of new models has a pretty similar effect to killing 100 points of enemy models. So any build which can kill 150-200 points more of the enemy each turn per 1,000 points invested than your daemon factory is more efficient. Since the daemon factory has virtually no killing power, that translates to pretty much being able to kill 200 points of the enemy per turn, per 1,000 points. That's fairly good, but any decent shooting unit will do better.
So I just got off the phone with my GW rep.
A small correction on the Psychic Powers. The defending player must roll a number of sucesses equal to the sucesses rolled by the casting player. So if I cast a level 1 power with three sucesses my opponet needs three sucesses to cancel it.
Also this has not been posted but I think it might make a few people happy. Strength D has changed.
D weapons:
1 nothing
2-5 D3 hull points/wounds
6 crazy
However Strength D no longer ignores cover/ Invuls
fryguy49 wrote: Also this has not been posted but I think it might make a few people happy. Strength D has changed.
D weapons:
1 nothing
2-5 D3 hull points/wounds
6 crazy
However Strength D no longer ignores cover/ Invuls
but that was the main reason to pick them against deathstars... still a good weapon.
Eldar will need to rely more on Divination (as if it was possible), SM's Land Speeders are a bit screwed (unless you're one of those not vanilla flavoured SMs, or Loth/Mantis Warriors).
Seems like Dark Eldar craft and bikes are rather hosed as well.
Yes, but as they usually don't possess any help for shooting, I didn't address those. Necrons too have skimmers, but they ahve some twin-linked stuff
Now, with Eldar/DE still as BBs, Raiders/boats with re-rolling even with jink will be cruel.
Not criticizing your omission, just pointing out that DE will take it on the chin with this change to jink, or be forced to always run Eldar allies, which I guess is what most people do anyway. Either way, I don't like it.
fryguy49 wrote: So I just got off the phone with my GW rep.
A small correction on the Psychic Powers. The defending player must roll a number of sucesses equal to the sucesses rolled by the casting player. So if I cast a level 1 power with three sucesses my opponet needs three sucesses to cancel it.
Also this has not been posted but I think it might make a few people happy. Strength D has changed.
D weapons:
1 nothing
2-5 D3 hull points/wounds
6 crazy
However Strength D no longer ignores cover/ Invuls
Well that invalidates D weapon use against deathstars, which was the only counter to deathstars. Blegh
slaede wrote: The screenshots for the transports are in the Jervis video. Basically they are considered the same part of the force org chart as the unit for which they were purchased.
Without knowing any other rules concerning vehicles, Wave Serpents, Rhinos, Drop Pods and Land Raiders purchased for troops are considered troops and therefore have Objective Secured in a Battle Forged list.
That is unless the vehicle rules still say they aren't scoring. We do have non-scoring Troops options in the game after all.
Yes indeed. However, rumors from multiple sources over the weekend stated that absolutely everything scores now, which makes sense in the context ot Objective Secured being the incentive to actually take more than min Troops. We will have to see if vehicles are exempted from scoring.
Mr.Church13 wrote: $85 for the rules and you have to buy an additional card pack! And they more than likely plan to invalidate the rules every two years now so what is wrong with GW? It's like they're trying to throw the company under the train on purpose now.
My psychic cards are predicting another 25% fall very soon for the big Kirby machine.
I don't see the issue. It only works out o $50 a year. Xbox LIVE costs more than that. Why are people making such a huge deal about this?
Because for some people, it's either/or, not both. Look I know the "feth you, I got mine Jack" attitude is popular around here, but it's not a difficult concept to grasp; people who don't have a lot of disposable income are naturally going to resent an additional unnecessary expense being imposed. It means they have to give up something else, and if they can only afford to keep up one hobby and chose 40K, it means they have to eat into their own hobby budget just to keep using the models they already have.
Christ I have an Autism spectrum disorder and I seem to have more empathy and basic consideration for other people's circumstances than a lot of folk here.
If you can't spare $100 for a book you will use for a couple of years, you are really in the wrong hobby. I take it you haven't bought any new units recently then? because if you bought more than one, you've likely already spent more than the cost of the rulebook. Units you might not even use every game, unlike the rulebook.
It's telling you assume I'm discussing my own situation, rather than just expressing solidarity with people who have things worse off than me. I am referring to my own situation as it happens though, and while I'd probably have a more productive and entertaining time headbutting my livingroom wall, I'll try and explain why GW cutting the length of their editions in half(and I'm aware it's an assumption they'll continue like this going forwards, but there's little reason to assume anything else; we know they're not doing this to "fix" the game in the eyes of the grognardian portion of their fanbase, and if the last year of releases has taught us anything about GW it's that they'll do whatever they can get away with - if enough people buy the new edition to make up for the people that walk away, we'll be down to two years per-edition from now on, count on it) substantially reduces the value proposition GW are offering; I do buy units actually, on a pretty regular schedule. In fact, on an extremely regular schedule, because I have to carefully budget every penny of disposable income I spend(a situation which means GW's relative value has already declined drastically in recent years - I can't plan and budget for stuff if I don't know it exists until a couple of weeks before it goes on sale).
I have a rough plan of the models I plan to buy and a fixed total budget for the next eighteen months, and so now I have a choice; stop my current projects altogether for four of those months, or stop playing 40K at the local club(which will undoubtedly move to 7th right away), which is functionally equivalent to not playing at all since my old "round a mate's" gaming group are scattered all over the place due to work or family commitments. Realistically that means I have to stop my projects for the four months, because the club isn't going to magically go back to 6th Edition in the future, so I have to find the money for the new rules at some stage if I want to own a legal copy. On a four-year cycle, I have to spend the hobby budget of 4 months out of 48 on core rules, usually more like 6 months when you take a codex into account, so total 6 out of 48. On a two year cycle, well the math isn't hard, now it's 6 out of 24, meaning I'm now spending 25% of my hobby budget on core rules compared to 12.5% before.
Now, with it laid out nice and easy like for you, can you understand why the price of Xbox live, or of a hypothetical skiing trip, or of running a private 'plane have absolutely zero relevance?
fryguy49 wrote: So I just got off the phone with my GW rep.
A small correction on the Psychic Powers. The defending player must roll a number of sucesses equal to the sucesses rolled by the casting player. So if I cast a level 1 power with three sucesses my opponet needs three sucesses to cancel it.
Also this has not been posted but I think it might make a few people happy. Strength D has changed.
D weapons:
1 nothing
2-5 D3 hull points/wounds
6 crazy
However Strength D no longer ignores cover/ Invuls
Well that invalidates D weapon use against deathstars, which was the only counter to deathstars. Blegh
With luck we'll be seeing better/easier to get into list options to counter deathstars instead.
fryguy49 wrote: Also this has not been posted but I think it might make a few people happy. Strength D has changed.
D weapons:
1 nothing
2-5 D3 hull points/wounds
6 crazy
However Strength D no longer ignores cover/ Invuls
but that was the main reason to pick them against deathstars... still a good weapon.
The problem is going to be that info from each sales rep is of course filtered through the memory of that person
The version told to me neglected to mention the D3 hull points/woulnds, but said that on a 2-5 you got cover and invuln. saves. 6 still very bad for you.
agnosto wrote: Man, that's a whole lot of level 3 psychic powers.
And if the way the powers are used is correct then you need to roll 3+ dice with a 4 or better on each of them to cast the powers. I see lots of dice being thrown to get these off.
And my Tau will be able to do nothing about this stuff....gee, I'm facing an army with 20 dice in the psychic phase and I have a maximum of 6...wow.
Don't worry, The Farsight special system will probably give you infinite dispel dice, and the ability to shoot the spell back at the caster. GW is nothing if not a true friend to Tau.
agnosto wrote: Man, that's a whole lot of level 3 psychic powers.
And if the way the powers are used is correct then you need to roll 3+ dice with a 4 or better on each of them to cast the powers. I see lots of dice being thrown to get these off.
And my Tau will be able to do nothing about this stuff....gee, I'm facing an army with 20 dice in the psychic phase and I have a maximum of 6...wow.
Don't worry, The Farsight special system will probably give you infinite dispel dice, and the ability to shoot the spell back at the caster. GW is nothing if not a true friend to Tau.
Lel.
Man, imagine how massive the new FAQs will be. Need to correct so many stuff
I actually like the new Jinx rules, IMO its a good example of a trade-off that really makes you think tactically, not just nerfs/buffs for the sake of it like most of GW's rule changes. The big question though is if you still get to assault after a jinx.
But even then, certain armies like Ravenwing will be all but invincible against weapons that don't ignore cover...
agnosto wrote: Man, that's a whole lot of level 3 psychic powers.
And if the way the powers are used is correct then you need to roll 3+ dice with a 4 or better on each of them to cast the powers. I see lots of dice being thrown to get these off.
And my Tau will be able to do nothing about this stuff....gee, I'm facing an army with 20 dice in the psychic phase and I have a maximum of 6...wow.
Don't worry, The Farsight special system will probably give you infinite dispel dice, and the ability to shoot the spell back at the caster. GW is nothing if not a true friend to Tau.
This edition....... I played Tau in 5th it wasn't so easy then...
That is unless the vehicle rules still say they aren't scoring. We do have non-scoring Troops options in the game after all.
With Knights scoring, it wouldn't be too surprising to see the 'no vehicles' restriction removed from the scoring unit rules.
Knights have a rule that specifically makes them scoring, I think that doesn't really prove anything they're doing with the core rules though. I mean by that logic because Sisters have a 6++ on their tanks everyone will get a 6++ on their tanks.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: I actually like the new Jinx rules, IMO its a good example of a trade-off that really makes you think tactically, not just nerfs/buffs for the sake of it like most of GW's rule changes. The big question though is if you still get to assault after a jinx.
But even then, certain armies like Ravenwing will be all but invincible against weapons that don't ignore cover...
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: I actually like the new Jinx rules, IMO its a good example of a trade-off that really makes you think tactically, not just nerfs/buffs for the sake of it like most of GW's rule changes. The big question though is if you still get to assault after a jinx.
But even then, certain armies like Ravenwing will be all but invincible against weapons that don't ignore cover...
Anybody know how this will affect DE?
Flickerfields go from good to quite bad back to quite good?
Trasvi wrote: From what I'm hearing on the video there are actually 3 types of forces:
Warforged - Following the normal Force Org Chart. which still seems to be as silly as the current Force Org Chart, and you get bonuses for this.
Normal - Same faction, but no force org limits
Unbound - doesn't even need to be the same faction. Nids allied with Grey Knights and Chaos Daemons.
Is that what other people are hearing also?
I believe what I read was an unbound army is whatever models you got but still have to adhere to the allies matrix
What people don't seem to really get is that the whole being able to summon X demons that have a ML it is exponential.
For that reason, I kind of don't see Heralds getting the ability to summon additional demons as it get's a little broken. It will probably only be available to Demon Princes and Greater Demons, but then it says in the chart that Brotherhood of Psykers can get it so who knows now.
Anyway with decent rolling you can actually put 500 models on the board for free if Heralds have access to Malefic and can summon so I doubt you'll be able to get it.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: I actually like the new Jinx rules, IMO its a good example of a trade-off that really makes you think tactically, not just nerfs/buffs for the sake of it like most of GW's rule changes. The big question though is if you still get to assault after a jinx.
But even then, certain armies like Ravenwing will be all but invincible against weapons that don't ignore cover...
Anybody know how this will affect DE?
Flickerfields go from good to quite bad back to quite good?
That and Reavers just became scary good since their bladevanes/cluster caltrops don't depend on BS, so snap shooting doesn't affect them.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: I actually like the new Jinx rules, IMO its a good example of a trade-off that really makes you think tactically, not just nerfs/buffs for the sake of it like most of GW's rule changes. The big question though is if you still get to assault after a jinx.
But even then, certain armies like Ravenwing will be all but invincible against weapons that don't ignore cover...
Anybody know how this will affect DE?
Flickerfields go from good to quite bad back to quite good?
That and Reavers just became scary good since their bladevanes/cluster caltrops don't depend on BS, so snap shooting doesn't affect them.
They were already "scary good" with how their turbo-boosting worked. They just got even better now.
barko wrote: How many 6+ do i need to roll in order to deny a level 3 power. I know they need three 4+ rolls to get the power of does that make me roll three 6+ to deny it? Do I just need one 6+ to deny the power? I play Necrons, Do my tomb spiders need to roll their special denial roll from the pool or is it separate, as far as that goes do they need a 6+ now or still the 4+ they had before? I know other armies have similar rules in them so I think we can see some FAQ action from day one, or at least I hope we do.
And how will psychic hoods work with all of this?
Honestly, they're so trivialized now I forget they exist half the time.
Ragnar69 wrote: "I'm taking only Wyrdvane Psikers and drown eveyrone in Bloodthirtherrs yadda yadda sky is falling" ;-)
I think I like those powers. They are fluffy and not OP. I woldn't take them with loyalists, but for Traitor guard they look nifty.
I can already hear the screams "cash grab! You need the demons dex!" But personally I think it would have been a bad idea to include all demons stats/rules in the BRB.
Of course I'm not happy shelling out a hundred bucks for a new book, but I realy (want to) believe that 7th will be better than 6th and that was my preferred edition by far.
I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?
Hollismason wrote: What people don't seem to really get is that the whole being able to summon X demons that have a ML it is exponential.
For that reason, I kind of don't see Heralds getting the ability to summon additional demons as it get's a little broken. It will probably only be available to Demon Princes and Greater Demons, but then it says in the chart that Brotherhood of Psykers can get it so who knows now.
Anyway with decent rolling you can actually put 500 models on the board for free if Heralds have access to Malefic and can summon so I doubt you'll be able to get it.
dunno... you need a 4+ per WC to cast the power. 6 dice are necessary to get it without much problem. that means each summoning requires 2 full ML3 models to add up, or 3 ML 2 models (if they can cast). Spending so many dice with summon hinder your buffing/malediction/witchfire potential. It's quite hard, if not impossible, to get 500 models by these means.
Suppose you start with 5 Heralds of Tzeentch as HQs, all ML3. It's D6+15 without any other psykers in your army. Average 18 WCs. spending 1/3 of your WCs for summoning could be useful, but all those buffs/curses/witchfires now have only 12 dice to be cast with. With Slaanesh/Nurgle it's even worse (max ML 2). Possession falls on the same situation as Summoning.
The Sacrifice power, used to bring a new Herald, is only ML1. Now that one is quite interesting. 2-3 dice is suffice (average) to bring another IC with 30p shenanigans (so many more rolls to make!).
edit: forgot about new DtW. You can try to summon models, but your enemy has psychic/technological means to stop such rifts in the Warp!
Anyway, there isn't any unit I know of unable to choose any psychic power within its permitted tables, as long it possess sufficient MLs. I doubt they'd put such restraint now.
Ragnar69 wrote: "I'm taking only Wyrdvane Psikers and drown eveyrone in Bloodthirtherrs yadda yadda sky is falling" ;-)
I think I like those powers. They are fluffy and not OP. I woldn't take them with loyalists, but for Traitor guard they look nifty.
I can already hear the screams "cash grab! You need the demons dex!" But personally I think it would have been a bad idea to include all demons stats/rules in the BRB.
Of course I'm not happy shelling out a hundred bucks for a new book, but I realy (want to) believe that 7th will be better than 6th and that was my preferred edition by far.
I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors a turn each with 2D6 s5 shots and are scoring. You were saying?
Take 4 Rune Priests and summon the "Spirits of Fenris"?
Ragnar69 wrote: "I'm taking only Wyrdvane Psikers and drown eveyrone in Bloodthirtherrs yadda yadda sky is falling" ;-)
I think I like those powers. They are fluffy and not OP. I woldn't take them with loyalists, but for Traitor guard they look nifty.
I can already hear the screams "cash grab! You need the demons dex!" But personally I think it would have been a bad idea to include all demons stats/rules in the BRB.
Of course I'm not happy shelling out a hundred bucks for a new book, but I realy (want to) believe that 7th will be better than 6th and that was my preferred edition by far.
I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?
Why would you say that? Just why? I was eyeing up Tzeentch Daemons as a possible army, but now that makes them broken, what with the Screamerstar as well.
Ragnar69 wrote: "I'm taking only Wyrdvane Psikers and drown eveyrone in Bloodthirtherrs yadda yadda sky is falling" ;-)
I think I like those powers. They are fluffy and not OP. I woldn't take them with loyalists, but for Traitor guard they look nifty.
I can already hear the screams "cash grab! You need the demons dex!" But personally I think it would have been a bad idea to include all demons stats/rules in the BRB.
Of course I'm not happy shelling out a hundred bucks for a new book, but I realy (want to) believe that 7th will be better than 6th and that was my preferred edition by far.
I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?
Well your opponent gets as many dice as you get to deny it. So might not be too bad
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: I actually like the new Jinx rules, IMO its a good example of a trade-off that really makes you think tactically, not just nerfs/buffs for the sake of it like most of GW's rule changes. The big question though is if you still get to assault after a jinx.
But even then, certain armies like Ravenwing will be all but invincible against weapons that don't ignore cover...
Anybody know how this will affect DE?
Flickerfields go from good to quite bad back to quite good?
Quite bad is a tad bit completely mistaken. Too much ignoring cover saves out there to not take them
Ragnar69 wrote: "I'm taking only Wyrdvane Psikers and drown eveyrone in Bloodthirtherrs yadda yadda sky is falling" ;-)
I think I like those powers. They are fluffy and not OP. I woldn't take them with loyalists, but for Traitor guard they look nifty.
I can already hear the screams "cash grab! You need the demons dex!" But personally I think it would have been a bad idea to include all demons stats/rules in the BRB.
Of course I'm not happy shelling out a hundred bucks for a new book, but I realy (want to) believe that 7th will be better than 6th and that was my preferred edition by far.
I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?
Why would you say that? Just why? I was eyeing up Tzeentch Daemons as a possible army, but now that makes them broken, what with the Screamerstar as well.
Take that WITH the Screamerstar and the Portal for maximum Daemon-Rickrolling action.
Knights have a rule that specifically makes them scoring, I think that doesn't really prove anything they're doing with the core rules though. I mean by that logic because Sisters have a 6++ on their tanks everyone will get a 6++ on their tanks.
I didn't say it was proof of anything. Just a suggestion that GW aren't completely opposed to the idea of scoring vehicles, and so with unbound allowing players to create all-vehicle armies it wouldn't be surprising of it it's carried across to other armies.
Knights have a rule that specifically makes them scoring, I think that doesn't really prove anything they're doing with the core rules though. I mean by that logic because Sisters have a 6++ on their tanks everyone will get a 6++ on their tanks.
I didn't say it was proof of anything. Just a suggestion that GW aren't completely opposed to the idea of scoring vehicles, and so with unbound allowing players to create all-vehicle armies it wouldn't be surprising of it it's carried across to other armies.
I get what you're saying, I just don't think because they did it for that army that it's going to apply to every army. I was just being fairly snarky about the point is all.
Ragnar69 wrote: "I'm taking only Wyrdvane Psikers and drown eveyrone in Bloodthirtherrs yadda yadda sky is falling" ;-)
I think I like those powers. They are fluffy and not OP. I woldn't take them with loyalists, but for Traitor guard they look nifty.
I can already hear the screams "cash grab! You need the demons dex!" But personally I think it would have been a bad idea to include all demons stats/rules in the BRB.
Of course I'm not happy shelling out a hundred bucks for a new book, but I realy (want to) believe that 7th will be better than 6th and that was my preferred edition by far.
I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?
Well your opponent gets as many dice as you get to deny it. So might not be too bad
Gets as many dice, but with 1/3 the chance of each dice being a success, at least if they don't have Psykers of their own. Stopping one critical power will be straightforward, but shutting down Psykers completely won't be all that easy.
Ragnar69 wrote: "I'm taking only Wyrdvane Psikers and drown eveyrone in Bloodthirtherrs yadda yadda sky is falling" ;-)
I think I like those powers. They are fluffy and not OP. I woldn't take them with loyalists, but for Traitor guard they look nifty.
I can already hear the screams "cash grab! You need the demons dex!" But personally I think it would have been a bad idea to include all demons stats/rules in the BRB.
Of course I'm not happy shelling out a hundred bucks for a new book, but I realy (want to) believe that 7th will be better than 6th and that was my preferred edition by far.
I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?
Well your opponent gets as many dice as you get to deny it. So might not be too bad
Gets as many dice, but with 1/3 the chance of each dice being a success, at least if they don't have Psykers of their own. Stopping one critical power will be straightforward, but shutting down Psykers completely won't be all that easy.
True but its better than praying for a 6 once each and every power that goes off. And from the supposed rules, it looks like getting the powers off will be more difficult as well. And we have yet to see the new Perils rules
Ravenous D wrote: I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?
Except it's unlikely to be even half that many horrors. 4 level 3 Heralds is 12 warp charges. Add three or four for your basic charges and you get enough for two semi-reliable castings of a level 3 power. That's before psychic defences come into play.
As for using it for exponential returns, killing the enemy gives exponential returns too. Each time you kill an enemy who could have killed you, you reduce the enemy forces and reduce your own casualties, meaning you are killing more than you would otherwise next turn.
Ragnar69 wrote: "I'm taking only Wyrdvane Psikers and drown eveyrone in Bloodthirtherrs yadda yadda sky is falling" ;-)
I think I like those powers. They are fluffy and not OP. I woldn't take them with loyalists, but for Traitor guard they look nifty.
I can already hear the screams "cash grab! You need the demons dex!" But personally I think it would have been a bad idea to include all demons stats/rules in the BRB.
Of course I'm not happy shelling out a hundred bucks for a new book, but I realy (want to) believe that 7th will be better than 6th and that was my preferred edition by far.
I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?
Why would you say that? Just why? I was eyeing up Tzeentch Daemons as a possible army, but now that makes them broken, what with the Screamerstar as well.
How about the Summon Warp Festival?
1. Fill your list with psykers: Fateweaver, 4 ML 3 Heralds, 6 Horrors units (let's keep their special rule for generating extra WC points out for now), 2 ML 3 Daemon Princes, 1 allied Ahriman, 1 allied unit of Thousand Sons. Complete with anything else you want. D6+33 Warp Charges
2. Spend points summoning more Horrors, Heralds and LoCs (use the last one with small Horrors units)
3. Profit
Ragnar69 wrote: "I'm taking only Wyrdvane Psikers and drown eveyrone in Bloodthirtherrs yadda yadda sky is falling" ;-)
I think I like those powers. They are fluffy and not OP. I woldn't take them with loyalists, but for Traitor guard they look nifty.
I can already hear the screams "cash grab! You need the demons dex!" But personally I think it would have been a bad idea to include all demons stats/rules in the BRB.
Of course I'm not happy shelling out a hundred bucks for a new book, but I realy (want to) believe that 7th will be better than 6th and that was my preferred edition by far.
I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?
Why would you say that? Just why? I was eyeing up Tzeentch Daemons as a possible army, but now that makes them broken, what with the Screamerstar as well.
How about the Summon Warp Festival?
1. Fill your list with psykers: Fateweaver, 4 ML 3 Heralds, 6 Horrors units (let's keep their special rule for generating extra WC points out for now), 2 ML 3 Daemon Princes, 1 allied Ahriman, 1 allied unit of Thousand Sons. Complete with anything else you want. D6+33 Warp Charges
2. Spend points summoning more Horrors, Heralds and LoCs (use the last one with small Horrors units)
3. Profit
Unless they get errata, Fateweaver and Horrors won't be able to use Daemonology. Currently, there is a rule for Conjurations that says any conjured unit is never scoring. Does that carry over is the question. And summoning an LOC is predicated on rolling the power.
So you could, theoretically at least, summon 80+ Horrors a turn?
Oh yeah, that seems fair. I guess GW thought the outrage against Daemons at the end of 7th Ed Fantasy was actually cheers of "More! More! More!".
Putting Malefic aside for a moment, the rest doesn't seem so bad... but I'm not buying another rulebook to replace one that isn't even two years old (not to mention Escalation and Stronpoint Assault).
Hollismason wrote: What people don't seem to really get is that the whole being able to summon X demons that have a ML it is exponential.
For that reason, I kind of don't see Heralds getting the ability to summon additional demons as it get's a little broken. It will probably only be available to Demon Princes and Greater Demons, but then it says in the chart that Brotherhood of Psykers can get it so who knows now.
Anyway with decent rolling you can actually put 500 models on the board for free if Heralds have access to Malefic and can summon so I doubt you'll be able to get it.
dunno... you need a 4+ per WC to cast the power. 6 dice are necessary to get it without much problem. that means each summoning requires 2 full ML3 models to add up, or 3 ML 2 models (if they can cast). Spending so many dice with summon hinder your buffing/malediction/witchfire potential. It's quite hard, if not impossible, to get 500 models by these means.
Suppose you start with 5 Heralds of Tzeentch as HQs, all ML3. It's D6+15 without any other psykers in your army. Average 18 WCs. spending 1/3 of your WCs for summoning could be useful, but all those buffs/curses/witchfires now have only 12 dice to be cast with. With Slaanesh/Nurgle it's even worse (max ML 2). Possession falls on the same situation as Summoning.
The Sacrifice power, used to bring a new Herald, is only ML1. Now that one is quite interesting. 2-3 dice is suffice (average) to bring another IC with 30p shenanigans (so many more rolls to make!).
edit: forgot about new DtW. You can try to summon models, but your enemy has psychic/technological means to stop such rifts in the Warp!
Anyway, there isn't any unit I know of unable to choose any psychic power within its permitted tables, as long it possess sufficient MLs. I doubt they'd put such restraint now.
Actually the Summoned Herald can be Level 2, if Tzeentch, as they get 30 Points of Options. This is why I don't believe Heralds will have access to summoning spells because it just get's broken when Heralds summon Heralds that summon Heralds.
slaede wrote: Unless they get errata, Fateweaver and Horrors won't be able to use Daemonology. Currently, there is a rule for Conjurations that says any conjured unit is never scoring. Does that carry over is the question. And summoning an LOC is predicated on rolling the power.
True... Well, forget about the Horrors. I can see Fatey getring Daemonology. With so many psykers, one or two is bound to get Possession Heralds are the true start, though. Each summoned Herald (quite cheap to do) can bring so much stuff...
Actually the Summoned Herald can be Level 2, if Tzeentch, as they get 30 Points of Options. This is why I don't believe Heralds will have access to summoning spells because it just get's broken when Heralds summon Heralds that summon Heralds.
The summoned ones wouldn't necessarily get the power, but you could give yourself 2 WC per turn if even one of your psykers gets Sacrifice.
slaede wrote: Unless they get errata, Fateweaver and Horrors won't be able to use Daemonology. Currently, there is a rule for Conjurations that says any conjured unit is never scoring. Does that carry over is the question. And summoning an LOC is predicated on rolling the power.
True... Well, forget about the Horrors. I can see Fatey getring Daemonology. With so many psykers, one or two is bound to get Possession Heralds are the true start, though. Each summoned Herald (quite cheap to do) can bring so much stuff...
Edit: I take this back. You could indeed keep spamming Tzeralds with the Sacrifice power.
All this talk of spamming Psychic Powers to summon summons that summon summons. I'm really hoping for a WHFB-esque Perils chart. 2D6 roll to cripple your army.
Sounds like a narrative being forged by random rolls to me!
Maybe the "Good Guys" Demonology allows you to automatically cancel D6 spells a Turn, or force Army Wide instability tests.
sydewynder wrote: All this talk of spamming Psychic Powers to summon summons that summon summons. I'm really hoping for a WHFB-esque Perils chart. 2D6 roll to cripple your army.
Sounds like a narrative being forged by random rolls to me!
Maybe the "Good Guys" Demonology allows you to automatically cancel D6 spells a Turn, or force Army Wide instability tests.
Ravenous D wrote: I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?
Except it's unlikely to be even half that many horrors. 4 level 3 Heralds is 12 warp charges. Add three or four for your basic charges and you get enough for two semi-reliable castings of a level 3 power. That's before psychic defences come into play.
As for using it for exponential returns, killing the enemy gives exponential returns too. Each time you kill an enemy who could have killed you, you reduce the enemy forces and reduce your own casualties, meaning you are killing more than you would otherwise next turn.
Units of horrors add to the warp charge pool. So 120 horrors and 4 heralds. 30 warp charges. 60+ daemons a turn of various affiliation. After those horrors are down I cast MORE DAEMONS
hell with some other powers I can summon MORE HERALDS.
So if you have a Herald of Tzeetch w/ Portaglyph and a Model that has the Sacrifice ability you could possibly have more than one portal out at a time.
1st model w/ Portaglyph uses it in his Movement phase
Psychic Phase
2 Psykers w/ Sacrifice Cast Sacrifice on the the Model that has the Portaglyph. He dies
2nd Summoned Herald comes in with Portaglyph. During the 2nd Turn Casts Portaglyph
2nd Psychic phase Repeat. You're trading two Heralds for 1.
Ravenous D wrote: I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?
Except it's unlikely to be even half that many horrors. 4 level 3 Heralds is 12 warp charges. Add three or four for your basic charges and you get enough for two semi-reliable castings of a level 3 power. That's before psychic defences come into play.
As for using it for exponential returns, killing the enemy gives exponential returns too. Each time you kill an enemy who could have killed you, you reduce the enemy forces and reduce your own casualties, meaning you are killing more than you would otherwise next turn.
Units of horrors add to the warp charge pool. So 120 horrors and 4 heralds. 30 warp charges. 60+ daemons a turn of various affiliation. After those horrors are down I cast MORE DAEMONS
hell with some other powers I can summon MORE HERALDS.
Makes me think of the Infinite Squirrel Decks of MtG.
Yeah it's why I seriously doubt Heralds will be able to summon. Only Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons. If Primaris Pskyers can get Malefic then the game becomes a little broken as well.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah it's why I seriously doubt Heralds will be able to summon. Only Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons. If Primaris Pskyers can get Malefic then the game becomes a little broken as well.
If Primaris Psykers CAN'T get Malefic, I'll be a sad panda...
Hollismason wrote: Yeah it's why I seriously doubt Heralds will be able to summon. Only Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons. If Primaris Pskyers can get Malefic then the game becomes a little broken as well.
I assume it'll work in a way we're not exactly expecting like no duplicate powers on Psykers and can only use each power once per turn, which would severely hamper these combos.
Like summoning more demons that can then summon more demons that can yet further summon more demons that can summon more demons, and deepen your warp charge pool with each summoning.
I only hope that the perils of the warp is similarly stupidly overpowered.
So much so that attempting to use multiples of these powers can leave you with half of your army destroyed about roughly half of the time. The risk vs. reward slope should be similarly steep in both directions.
As we can see the reward slope is insane. Is there any demon player who would NOT spam psykers in order to summon further summonings of summoning?
Either that or local demon players are going to have an uphill battle convincing anyone to play with them.
Hey man mark my words Daemons summoning daemons will be allowed simply because GW needs the cash really bad right now (see moving to a two year cycle) and you have to have the physical model to summon it sooo yeah I can see them more than happy with daemons "narratively forging" daemons.
Question I have not seen bought up with the discussion on summoning.
If you use more dice does the chance of you perelling increase?
SO yeah you may have 1000 warp charges in your army and max ability to summon that Blood Thirster but the more dice you roll the more chance of that double 1?
All of these recursive Daemon summoning tricks fall over based on the current rules as you only generate powers at the start of the game - so any Horrors or Heralds that you spawn have warp charge but can't cast themselves (so the original units have more warp charge to work with but you don't exponentially spawn). Yes its a stupid RAW ruling, but people will push for it if the rules for generating powers haven't changed and this is going to be a problem.
slaede wrote:Edit: I take this back. You could indeed keep spamming Tzeralds with the Sacrifice power.
Slaanesh/Nurgle heralds can do this as well, but with less dice available
sydewynder wrote:All this talk of spamming Psychic Powers to summon summons that summon summons. I'm really hoping for a WHFB-esque Perils chart. 2D6 roll to cripple your army.
Like summoning more demons that can then summon more demons that can yet further summon more demons that can summon more demons, and deepen your warp charge pool with each summoning.
those made me chuckle a bit.
ClockworkZion wrote:I assume it'll work in a way we're not exactly expecting like no duplicate powers on Psykers and can only use each power once per turn, which would severely hamper these combos.
Yeah, I concur. Conjuration rules could bring some limitations.
It's probably more failures than successes or something to that effect.
I doubt they'll limit Psychic Abilities to one per army, otherwise no one could take the Primaris power as standard and that would be pointless to have Primaris powers that you cannot take then have to reroll accordingly if a previous psyker had the roll.
Then the max number of Psychic Levels you could have in a army would be like 6 or something.
Plus it'd make Brotherhood of Psykers for Demons kind of pointless.
It would also guarentee that you got all 6 powers if you have 6 Mastery Levels of a particular school.
I'm now laughing at the "how to choose an army" section: "you and your opponent have to agree on how to choose your army, whether you want to use a point limit, etc". GW really is pushing things in the direction of "put everything you own on the table and roll some dice". Now even point limits are optional, since who cares about having an equal chance of winning if it gets in the way of being able to use everything that you buy (and buy more!!!!).
I assume it'll work in a way we're not exactly expecting like no duplicate powers on Psykers and can only use each power once per turn, which would severely hamper these combos.
That's actually a good point. 2nd edition used cards for each psychic power - you chose powers randomly by dealing cards out to each psyker, 1 card for each mastery level. So you never had any given power on more than one psyker.
Given the mind-bending brokenness of the Daemonology powers shown so far, that wouldn't be an entirely bad thing to see return. (So it appears that my dislike for arbitrary restrictions is dependant entirely on how much I think they benefit the game overall... )
Hollismason wrote: It's probably more failures than successes or something to that effect.
I doubt they'll limit Psychic Abilities to one per army, otherwise no one could take the Primaris power as standard and that would be pointless to have Primaris powers that you cannot take then have to reroll accordingly if a previous psyker had the roll.
Then the max number of Psychic Levels you could have in a army would be like 6 or something.
Plus it'd make Brotherhood of Psykers for Demons kind of pointless.
It would also guarentee that you got all 6 powers if you have 6 Mastery Levels of a particular school.
I don't think anyone is ML6 so that'd mean a total of ML6 for your army in a single school, which isn't that broken, they could still make that one psyker wielding that power they don't like explode with proper target priority.
And units with powers chosen for them wouldn't be affected (Hammerhand for instance) and I think Fantasy lets you double down on the Primaris.
Like I said it'd make Demons Psychic Abilities kind of gakky as you couldn't have a army of Pink Horrors because they'd use up all of the "cards" of the Tzeetch discipline.
It'd also always just be Okay I have 3 level 2 Psykers, I take 1 Power from Divination. I take another, I take Another.
I have all of the divination powers. Who cares if you roll randomly when you are going to get the whole list anyway.
Ravenous D wrote: I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?
Except it's unlikely to be even half that many horrors. 4 level 3 Heralds is 12 warp charges. Add three or four for your basic charges and you get enough for two semi-reliable castings of a level 3 power. That's before psychic defences come into play.
As for using it for exponential returns, killing the enemy gives exponential returns too. Each time you kill an enemy who could have killed you, you reduce the enemy forces and reduce your own casualties, meaning you are killing more than you would otherwise next turn.
Units of horrors add to the warp charge pool. So 120 horrors and 4 heralds. 30 warp charges. 60+ daemons a turn of various affiliation. After those horrors are down I cast MORE DAEMONS
hell with some other powers I can summon MORE HERALDS.
30+d6 warp charges does not translate to 60+ daemons. Six attempts would only give you 5-6 charges per casting, which means half or more of them will fail, resulting in maybe 20 daemons actually showing up. Four or five attempts with seven dice each will probably get better results, with maybe four successes on an average turn. Then your opponent gets to deny some of them. Probably stops at least one with thirty denial dice in their pool. So, you are producing maybe three units of ten lesser daemons each turn, by using all the warp charges of 1,500 point force who do very little except produce warp charges to power these abilities.
Congratulations, you can now spawn daemons almost as fast as a conventional army can shoot them off the board.
As for generating more warp charges with daemons you just bought in, I'm pretty sure that you roll for warp charges before you start using them and, unlike Mana in M:tG, you can't draw more in the same turn. In theory you will be able to get more warp charges in the next turn, but in practice I think you will be taking casualties faster than you spawn them most of the time, so you are unlikely to break even.
It's not a terrible option. It lets you play a defensive strategy, while giving you the choice to shift tactics and it will probably be able to outpace some enemies with weak anti-horde shooting. But it's not a ridiculously powerful combo in the way that Screamerstar is.
This is rather dependent on the cost of the 'sacrifice' ability actually being three charges. The image is a bit blurry, so it could possibly be a two or even a one. At a lower cost it becomes a lot more effective to spend the first couple of turns generating more heralds for extra charges and then unleashing a horde as you are about to make contact with the enemy.
I wouldn't be surprised to see " You can only cast one spell a turn, but multiple Psykers can have that spell".
Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me at all really if it wasn't like that and you could try to summon like 60 demons a turn. It would not be a surprise, GW is incredibly disconnected when it comes to certain things.
Peregrine wrote: I'm now laughing at the "how to choose an army" section: "you and your opponent have to agree on how to choose your army, whether you want to use a point limit, etc". GW really is pushing things in the direction of "put everything you own on the table and roll some dice". Now even point limits are optional, since who cares about having an equal chance of winning if it gets in the way of being able to use everything that you buy (and buy more!!!!).
Peregrine wrote: I'm now laughing at the "how to choose an army" section: "you and your opponent have to agree on how to choose your army, whether you want to use a point limit, etc". GW really is pushing things in the direction of "put everything you own on the table and roll some dice". Now even point limits are optional, since who cares about having an equal chance of winning if it gets in the way of being able to use everything that you buy (and buy more!!!!).
Peregrine wrote: I'm now laughing at the "how to choose an army" section: "you and your opponent have to agree on how to choose your army, whether you want to use a point limit, etc". GW really is pushing things in the direction of "put everything you own on the table and roll some dice". Now even point limits are optional, since who cares about having an equal chance of winning if it gets in the way of being able to use everything that you buy (and buy more!!!!).
Well the HHHobby is now just "buy all our playsets and toys". It stopped being what it once was a while back.
They kinda can be, just only for heralds, still a better idea to sac a chump though. Your sorcerer is just going to have to be the host for the greater daemon.
Speaking of which if you play Daemons, have a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch, it goes down to 1 wound, could you just use the Possession power and sac the current one to summon a new one?
ClockworkZion wrote: Regardless of the exact method it's done I expect there to be limits to basically prevent the spamming of summoning and the like.
You assume that the goal is game balance instead of sales. I expect no limits at all, since the more demons you can summon each turn the more demon models you have to buy. Adding these new powers and making them available to everyone is just a blatant attempt at boosting sales.
Peregrine wrote: I'm now laughing at the "how to choose an army" section: "you and your opponent have to agree on how to choose your army, whether you want to use a point limit, etc". GW really is pushing things in the direction of "put everything you own on the table and roll some dice". Now even point limits are optional, since who cares about having an equal chance of winning if it gets in the way of being able to use everything that you buy (and buy more!!!!).
Well the HHHobby is now just "buy all our playsets and toys". It stopped being what it once was a while back.
"Coming soon: the Ultramarines play set, complete with your own Marneus Calgar who comes complete with Avatar punching action!"
ClockworkZion wrote: Regardless of the exact method it's done I expect there to be limits to basically prevent the spamming of summoning and the like.
You assume that the goal is game balance instead of sales. I expect no limits at all, since the more demons you can summon each turn the more demon models you have to buy. Adding these new powers and making them available to everyone is just a blatant attempt at boosting sales.
No, I assume they'll make things more random and special snowflake but not letting your psykers copy each other.
Peregrine wrote: I'm now laughing at the "how to choose an army" section: "you and your opponent have to agree on how to choose your army, whether you want to use a point limit, etc". GW really is pushing things in the direction of "put everything you own on the table and roll some dice". Now even point limits are optional, since who cares about having an equal chance of winning if it gets in the way of being able to use everything that you buy (and buy more!!!!).
Well the HHHobby is now just "buy all our playsets and toys". It stopped being what it once was a while back.
What, did you never play any of the Warhammer Fantasy: Skirmish scenarios?
Quite a few of those involved horribly skewed points/model counts--yet were still really fun. The one with 1000ish points of whatever army (with a continuous "spawn" of units recycling until the end of the final turn) against 5 Wood Elf Waywatchers with random traps on the table was a really fun one to play.
ickz wrote: I'm kind of hoping this rule also gets transferred from WFB to 7th ed 40k:
"The casting player's Wizards can attempt to cast each of their spells once during each Magic phase"
It would stop some of this mass-summoning at least.
Isn't that what happens now (without the magic phase)? Each psyker can cast each of its powers once. You cannot cast 2 Psychic Screams by the same psyker, but 2 different psykers can cast it. The summon gallore can happen as well if 2 or more psykers have the Conjuration powers and try to cast such powers.
Now, if each power can be cast only once PER PSYCHIC PHASE, then the summoning gets whittled down
H.B.M.C. wrote: Again the point sails blissfully over your head Kan.
If you want me to address your "point", here you go:
Do you really think that actually having to talk to your opponent before playing a game is a bad thing? How many people do you think play without ever talking to their opponent before they meet for a game?
Kanluwen wrote: What, did you never play any of the Warhammer Fantasy: Skirmish scenarios?
Quite a few of those involved horribly skewed points/model counts--yet were still really fun. The one with 1000ish points of whatever army (with a continuous "spawn" of units recycling until the end of the final turn) against 5 Wood Elf Waywatchers with random traps on the table was a really fun one to play.
There's a huge difference between an asymmetrical game where the two players have equal-but-different advantages (numbers and respawning vs. traps and favourable objectives) and one that says "Whoever offers the largest sacrifice to your Lord Games Workshop wins the game".
CrashCanuck wrote: Speaking of which if you play Daemons, have a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch, it goes down to 1 wound, could you just use the Possession power and sac the current one to summon a new one?
Looks like it, yes. Although the replacement won't have any upgrades and it seems there is a significant risk of just finishing off your greater daemon with perils of the warp.
But then you give up one of your psychic powers for something you might not have an opportunity to use. An opponent who knows that you can do that will try to finish off a wounded Lord of Change before it has a chance to 'refresh'.
Ragnar69 wrote: "I'm taking only Wyrdvane Psikers and drown eveyrone in Bloodthirtherrs yadda yadda sky is falling" ;-)
I think I like those powers. They are fluffy and not OP. I woldn't take them with loyalists, but for Traitor guard they look nifty.
I can already hear the screams "cash grab! You need the demons dex!" But personally I think it would have been a bad idea to include all demons stats/rules in the BRB.
Of course I'm not happy shelling out a hundred bucks for a new book, but I realy (want to) believe that 7th will be better than 6th and that was my preferred edition by far.
I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?
Summoning is a Warp Charge 3 power. Can Heralds be level 3? I forget.
Kanluwen wrote: Do you really think that actually having to talk to your opponent before playing a game is a bad thing?
Yes, I do, when the conversation consists of nothing more than trying to fix GW's stupid decisions. I shouldn't have to negotiate with a potential opponent just so I can have a functioning game.
well, I gotta say that i am not entirely stoked on the new psychic discipline that gives daemons to every army outside of tyranids. Seems like giving the daemon codex to everyone while excluding lots of cool imperial stuff (like giant stompy robots) is weak sauce.
sennacherib wrote: well, I gotta say that i am not entirely stoked on the new psychic discipline that gives daemons to every army outside of tyranids. Seems like giving the daemon codex to everyone while excluding lots of cool imperial stuff (like giant stompy robots) is weak sauce.
We have zero information on who gets access to the Daemonology lores. Nothing yet suggests that everyone has access to it.
ClockworkZion wrote: Regardless of the exact method it's done I expect there to be limits to basically prevent the spamming of summoning and the like.
There will be a limit alright... you may only summon as many greater daemons as you have models for.
Other than that, there will not be any limits.
This edition is not about the game... it is about model sales....
7th edition, imho, is probably the last edition of 40k. Mark my words, this is ultimately going to kill the game and have the exact opposite effect GW wants it to... just saying.
sennacherib wrote: well, I gotta say that i am not entirely stoked on the new psychic discipline that gives daemons to every army outside of tyranids. Seems like giving the daemon codex to everyone while excluding lots of cool imperial stuff (like giant stompy robots) is weak sauce.
There is no guarantee that every single army is going to be able to summon up Daemons. Remember that there is two sides to Daemonology, the Sanctic side and the Malefic side.
So far we have only seen the Malefic side.
sennacherib wrote: well, I gotta say that i am not entirely stoked on the new psychic discipline that gives daemons to every army outside of tyranids. Seems like giving the daemon codex to everyone while excluding lots of cool imperial stuff (like giant stompy robots) is weak sauce.
We have zero information on who gets access to the Daemonology lores. Nothing yet suggests that everyone has access to it.
sennacherib wrote: well, I gotta say that i am not entirely stoked on the new psychic discipline that gives daemons to every army outside of tyranids. Seems like giving the daemon codex to everyone while excluding lots of cool imperial stuff (like giant stompy robots) is weak sauce.
We have zero information on who gets access to the Daemonology lores. Nothing yet suggests that everyone has access to it.
WD says everyone except Tyranids.
Psychic power Tau, Dark Eldar, Black Templars and Necrons?
I'm going to ASSUME they don't get Malefic Psychic Powers.
sennacherib wrote: well, I gotta say that i am not entirely stoked on the new psychic discipline that gives daemons to every army outside of tyranids. Seems like giving the daemon codex to everyone while excluding lots of cool imperial stuff (like giant stompy robots) is weak sauce.
We have zero information on who gets access to the Daemonology lores. Nothing yet suggests that everyone has access to it.
Ragnar69 wrote: "I'm taking only Wyrdvane Psikers and drown eveyrone in Bloodthirtherrs yadda yadda sky is falling" ;-)
I think I like those powers. They are fluffy and not OP. I woldn't take them with loyalists, but for Traitor guard they look nifty.
I can already hear the screams "cash grab! You need the demons dex!" But personally I think it would have been a bad idea to include all demons stats/rules in the BRB.
Of course I'm not happy shelling out a hundred bucks for a new book, but I realy (want to) believe that 7th will be better than 6th and that was my preferred edition by far.
I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?
Summoning is a Warp Charge 3 power. Can Heralds be level 3? I forget.
It is entirely possible that a psyker's ML just adds dice to the dice pool and is not connected to the warp charge of a power. It may be that a ML1 psyker can cast a warp charge 3 power as long as he can roll enough successes from the dice pool.
It is entirely possible that a psyker's ML just adds dice to the dice pool and is not connected to the warp charge of a power. It may be that a ML1 psyker can cast a warp charge 3 power as long as he can roll enough successes from the dice pool.
Possible, certainly. It's also entirely possible that the psycher can only cast a power that he has the ML for, but is free to use as many dice from the dice pool as he wants. We'll see, of course.
Ragnar69 wrote: "I'm taking only Wyrdvane Psikers and drown eveyrone in Bloodthirtherrs yadda yadda sky is falling" ;-)
I think I like those powers. They are fluffy and not OP. I woldn't take them with loyalists, but for Traitor guard they look nifty.
I can already hear the screams "cash grab! You need the demons dex!" But personally I think it would have been a bad idea to include all demons stats/rules in the BRB.
Of course I'm not happy shelling out a hundred bucks for a new book, but I realy (want to) believe that 7th will be better than 6th and that was my preferred edition by far.
I take 4 heralds who spawn 40 horrors each turn, each with 2D6 s5 shots and are extra scoringy. You were saying?
Summoning is a Warp Charge 3 power. Can Heralds be level 3? I forget.
It is entirely possible that a psyker's ML just adds dice to the dice pool and is not connected to the warp charge of a power. It may be that a ML1 psyker can cast a warp charge 3 power as long as he can roll enough successes from the dice pool.
Not if they copy fantasy to it's ultimate magic phase conclusion. Each psycker will have their own spells.
sennacherib wrote: well, I gotta say that i am not entirely stoked on the new psychic discipline that gives daemons to every army outside of tyranids. Seems like giving the daemon codex to everyone while excluding lots of cool imperial stuff (like giant stompy robots) is weak sauce.
We have zero information on who gets access to the Daemonology lores. Nothing yet suggests that everyone has access to it.
Kanluwen wrote: Do you really think that actually having to talk to your opponent before playing a game is a bad thing? How many people do you think play without ever talking to their opponent before they meet for a game?
Having to talk to your opponent? No, of course that's not a bad thing.
Having to waste time establishing whether or not you're both actually playing the same game, despite both of you having the same rulebook?
sennacherib wrote: well, I gotta say that i am not entirely stoked on the new psychic discipline that gives daemons to every army outside of tyranids. Seems like giving the daemon codex to everyone while excluding lots of cool imperial stuff (like giant stompy robots) is weak sauce.
We have zero information on who gets access to the Daemonology lores. Nothing yet suggests that everyone has access to it.
WD says everyone except Tyranids.
Must have missed that bit.
Still, not every army has psykers...
But every army (except 'Nids) has access to allies with Psykers...
kronk wrote: I started doing that with 6th edition.
You want a game?
How many points?
Competitive, less-than, something in-between?
With or without Stronghold Assault?
With or without Escalation?
Allies cool?
FW Cool?
Let's roll.
I don't even ask that many questions on a first date.
Perhaps we should rename the Find A Game subforum to "OkDakka" or "40kMatch.com" and make everyone submit wargaming dating profiles with their preferences and pictures of their armies.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Again the point sails blissfully over your head Kan.
If you want me to address your "point", here you go:
Do you really think that actually having to talk to your opponent before playing a game is a bad thing? How many people do you think play without ever talking to their opponent before they meet for a game?
I talk to my opponent.
Not just at the start of the game either, it has been known, on the odd occasion, for me to talk to my opponent for the whole battle!!!1!
I have no issue with this.
Issues may start to arise, not all the time, but sometimes, when I have to agree with my opponent about the appropriate way to play the game. When you have two opposing, but equally valid, viewpoints, both supported by the rules, and two players who may only have one chance to play a game once in a while, why is it fair that one or the other should compromise their enjoyment for the other person's?
I am really liking these changes, I also applaud GW for listening to the player base and making some of the obvious changes that people have been wanting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kronk wrote: I don't even ask that many questions on a first date.
to be fair there's only one question you really care about on a first date lol
Kanluwen wrote: There is no guarantee that every single army is going to be able to summon up Daemons. Remember that there is two sides to Daemonology, the Sanctic side and the Malefic side.
So far we have only seen the Malefic side.
Remember the WD quote that says "all psykers get it"?
Do we know if the summoned Daemons will be counted as part of the primary detachment, or follow allies rules? Would they be Battle Brothers?, Convenience?, Desperate?
bodazoka wrote: I am really liking these changes, I also applaud GW for listening to the player base and making some of the obvious changes that people have been wanting.
Err, what? What changes would those be? Because so far all of the confirmed changes are terrible ones.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Again the point sails blissfully over your head Kan.
If you want me to address your "point", here you go:
Do you really think that actually having to talk to your opponent before playing a game is a bad thing? How many people do you think play without ever talking to their opponent before they meet for a game?
I talk to my opponent.
Not just at the start of the game either, it has been known, on the odd occasion, for me to talk to my opponent for the whole battle!!!1!
I have no issue with this.
Issues may start to arise, not all the time, but sometimes, when I have to agree with my opponent about the appropriate way to play the game. When you have two opposing, but equally valid, viewpoints, both supported by the rules, and two players who may only have one chance to play a game once in a while, why is it fair that one or the other should compromise their enjoyment for the other person's?
That's actually a good point Azrael.
Personally? I think if it gets to that point, setting up a rotation of "This game we do it the way I want to do it, then next game we do it the way you want to" would not be out of the question.
So no unbound vs battle forged it looks like. Missed that on my first skim through the screen caps. That makes objective secured a little redundant unless they're changing the scoring system after all. That could be nice actually. Troops are great at scoring, but you can choose to mostly ignore them and use other units to score... I'd take it out on a second date.
Alex C wrote: Do we know if the summoned Daemons will be counted as part of the primary detachment, or follow allies rules? Would they be Battle Brothers?, Convenience?, Desperate?
I'm guessing that they count as a unit from the Chaos Daemons faction, but that raises questions about what happens if you can summon a unit which has a 'come the apocalypse' level of alliance with something else in your army...
bodazoka wrote: I am really liking these changes, I also applaud GW for listening to the player base and making some of the obvious changes that people have been wanting.
Not sure what those changes which we wanted and have been given are. Care to explain?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Again the point sails blissfully over your head Kan.
If you want me to address your "point", here you go:
Do you really think that actually having to talk to your opponent before playing a game is a bad thing? How many people do you think play without ever talking to their opponent before they meet for a game?
I talk to my opponent.
Not just at the start of the game either, it has been known, on the odd occasion, for me to talk to my opponent for the whole battle!!!1!
I have no issue with this.
Issues may start to arise, not all the time, but sometimes, when I have to agree with my opponent about the appropriate way to play the game. When you have two opposing, but equally valid, viewpoints, both supported by the rules, and two players who may only have one chance to play a game once in a while, why is it fair that one or the other should compromise their enjoyment for the other person's?
That's actually a good point Azrael.
Personally? I think if it gets to that point, setting up a rotation of "This game we do it the way I want to do it, then next game we do it the way you want to" would not be out of the question.
I make the occasional one.
It could be out of the question if it is a pick up game. Friendly games amongst social groups aren't nearly as plagued by the issues affecting the game as trying to organise a match between relative strangers.
I personally don't suffer that badly with a lot of the issues I may be seen arguing against on here, because I'm lucky to have a fairly genial group who aren't looking to overcompensate for things by repeated curb stomps. It doesn't mean I'm blind to the potential for it all to go to hell, mind.
To try and mitigate this, I've floated the idea of a "Club Charter" to a largely positive response, where we will thrash out a 'standard' format for club games, not a banning of anything, merely a "if you haven't pre-arranged something different, or if it is a league or other semi-competitive match, these are the dos and don'ts" sort of thing.
That'll work for us, as a large group, but for a more transient population as may be encountered in a FLGS, it quite probably won't.
So if you have a Herald of Tzeetch w/ Portaglyph and a Model that has the Sacrifice ability you could possibly have more than one portal out at a time.
1st model w/ Portaglyph uses it in his Movement phase
Psychic Phase
2 Psykers w/ Sacrifice Cast Sacrifice on the the Model that has the Portaglyph. He dies
2nd Summoned Herald comes in with Portaglyph. During the 2nd Turn Casts Portaglyph
2nd Psychic phase Repeat. You're trading two Heralds for 1.
Here is the thing you need to remember about this. You can now disspels spells like in fantsey. It's not like you have no defense agiest this. Roll your disspell die agiest the power so it dosen't go off.
What 40k needs now is a geneic armoury heros can buy "archeotech" wargear. With a 40k equvlient to a dispsell scroll and something you can buy on HQ's to generate more disspell dice for non-pyscher armies.
Sadly they probley won't do that untill 8th ed 40k next year the way they are going.
bodazoka wrote: I am really liking these changes, I also applaud GW for listening to the player base and making some of the obvious changes that people have been wanting.
Err, what? What changes would those be? Because so far all of the confirmed changes are terrible ones.
Possible change to battle brothers that people wanted
Possible change to allow people to more easily deny phsysic powers (or at least give them the option for non witchfire)
That sort of stuff which is something people have been wanting.
And as far as "all of the confirmed changes are terrible ones" <--- purely your opinion, which you are of course entitled to but still opinion (with limited facts) of course we can only work with what we have so I also understand your opinion has to be based on what you can see now.
Looking at this screencap from /tg/:
I noticed something, it looks like there are different levels of command benefits that give different bonuses to armies based on what they're composed of.
ClockworkZion wrote: Looking at this screencap from /tg/:
I noticed something, it looks like there are different levels of command benefits that give different bonuses to armies based on what they're composed of.
A few of us theorized earlier that there will be more types of detachments with different command benefits and FOC requirements than just the standard "combined arms" one we're familiar with now.
ClockworkZion wrote: Looking at this screencap from /tg/:
I noticed something, it looks like there are different levels of command benefits that give different bonuses to armies based on what they're composed of.
I think you are reading too much into it.
As you may recall this is a two column page. The left column is from the primary detachment and the right column is for the allied detachment.
Secured Objective reads identically.
The Primary detachment gets the ideal commander benefit but the allied detachments does not (obviously) since you cannot have a warlord in your allied detachment.
azreal13 wrote: "If this detachment is chosen as your primary detachment.."
Not something you can do currently is it?
Well, you can take primary detachment which isn't a 'combined arms' one at the moment (Inquisition and Imperial Knights), but I don't think you can take a special primary detachment and a 'combined arms' one as well.
ClockworkZion wrote: Looking at this screencap from /tg/:
I noticed something, it looks like there are different levels of command benefits that give different bonuses to armies based on what they're composed of.
I think you are reading too much into it.
Secured Objective reads identically.
The Primary detachment gets the ideal commander benefit but the allied detachments does not (obviously) since you cannot have a warlord in your allied detachment.
I see no instances of a "level" at all.
I do see something potentially: "same faction" and "different faction". With rumors regarding allies changing it possible they're being divided more into "factions" and that effects the bonuses.
Lansirill wrote: So no unbound vs battle forged it looks like. Missed that on my first skim through the screen caps. That makes objective secured a little redundant unless they're changing the scoring system after all. That could be nice actually. Troops are great at scoring, but you can choose to mostly ignore them and use other units to score... I'd take it out on a second date.
You did miss it. Read the top line of the screen cap that details unbound armies. Specifically the bold section. "Both players need not use the same method."
ClockworkZion wrote: I do see something potentially: "same faction" and "different faction". With rumors regarding allies changing it possible they're being divided more into "factions" and that effects the bonuses.
I think 'faction' is just the new terminology for 'army list'.
In the dataslates, there is a section which says:
Each datasheet will list the Faction it is part of. The Faction determines which codex the datasheet is considered part of for all rules purposes. For example, a datasheet for a new Space Marine Army List Entry can be used in any detachment chosen from Codex: Space Marines, while a datasheet for a new Ork Formation would be treated as a detachment from Codex: Orks, and so on.
Since Tau, Deldar, and Necrons don't get access(themselves anyway) to Daemonology, could it be possible that Daemons don't get access either? I know it flat out says Tyranids can't(surprise!), but could it not also be possible chaos daemons don't as well? It would shut off the super summoning ritual. It would also mean they would have to rely on Chaos Space Marine allies to boost their saves if they rolled that power.
ClockworkZion wrote: I do see something potentially: "same faction" and "different faction". With rumors regarding allies changing it possible they're being divided more into "factions" and that effects the bonuses.
I think 'faction' is just the new terminology for 'army list'.
In the dataslates, there is a section which says:
Each datasheet will list the Faction it is part of. The Faction determines which codex the datasheet is considered part of for all rules purposes. For example, a datasheet for a new Space Marine Army List Entry can be used in any detachment chosen from Codex: Space Marines, while a datasheet for a new Ork Formation would be treated as a detachment from Codex: Orks, and so on.
ClockworkZion wrote: I do see something potentially: "same faction" and "different faction". With rumors regarding allies changing it possible they're being divided more into "factions" and that effects the bonuses.
I think 'faction' is just the new terminology for 'army list'.
In the dataslates, there is a section which says:
Each datasheet will list the Faction it is part of. The Faction determines which codex the datasheet is considered part of for all rules purposes. For example, a datasheet for a new Space Marine Army List Entry can be used in any detachment chosen from Codex: Space Marines, while a datasheet for a new Ork Formation would be treated as a detachment from Codex: Orks, and so on.
Then how do "no Faction" armies work?
"No faction" can refer to things like fortifications.
Saw this on The Tyranid Hive.Thanks Nameless Didn't see this posted so sorry if I missed it.
This is the newest dump:
I spoke with my FLGS guy who talked to the GW rep this morning. Not all of my questions were answered, but here is what I heard that is not something already all over the internet. This assumes the GW rep had his facts straight, and the FLGS guy relayed them correctly via the game of telephone.
Battle Brothers
Eldar/DE Chaos/Daemons All Imperium
All others were convenience, desperate or apocalypse.
No answer as to whether you can join units of battle brothers.
Psychic Phase
Roll a D6 and add the total mastery levels of all your psykers. You get that many power dice and your opponent gets that many DTW dice.
To cast a power, you need to roll a 4+ for every warp charge of the power you're using. So warp charge 2 = two 4+, meaning you'd need 4 power dice to have an average shot.
Your opponent dispels the power with a roll of a 6 on their dice. So the more dice they have, the more shots they get at rolling that 6 to cancel out that critical power. I was told that the mastery level of the psyker dispelling the power lowers the roll needed to dispel it. So a ML2 psyker dispels on a 5+, ML3 on a 4+. etc...
That is what I was told.
That seems wrong to me because Fateweaver, Eldrad and Ahriman could dispel anything on a 3+. More likely, I would think you compare mastery levels between the casting psyker and the dispelling psyker, and apply a bonus that way. This is conjecture. What I wrote above is what I was told.
What I also don't know is if there is a dice limit a psyker can use to cast or dispel a power based on their mastery level. I also don't know if you need two 6's to dispel a ML2 power. I assume you do.
You would figure Adamantium Will would give you +1 to DTW for powers cast at a unit with that rule.
Jink Save
Jink is a 4+, however it is no longer always on. You must declare a jink to claim it, and if you do so, it's snapshots only in the next phase.
Sweeping Advance
Unchanged. You do not consolidate into a new combat.
And that's all I got that's new! So you can go runtelldat.
Sinful Hero wrote: Since Tau, Deldar, and Necrons don't get access(themselves anyway) to Daemonology, could it be possible that Daemons don't get access either? I know it flat out says Tyranids can't(surprise!), but could it not also be possible chaos daemons don't as well? It would shut off the super summoning ritual. It would also mean they would have to rely on Chaos Space Marine allies to boost their saves if they rolled that power.
I will be astonished if Chaos Daemons don't have Malefic Daemonology. White Dwarf said that all armies except Tyranids will have access to Daemonology in some form. I don't see them getting Santic Daemonology.
I'm pretty sure that heralds being able to summon heralds who can later summon other heralds is totally intended. It's just not going to be as 'broken' as people think, because it can only grow so much per turn and you have to dedicate significant resources to get much out of it. We can't tell exactly how good it will be, but I very much doubt that it will be enough to overwhelm a build dedicated to killing the enemy.
What it will offer is another option, making psykers even more flexible.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Again the point sails blissfully over your head Kan.
If you want me to address your "point", here you go:
Do you really think that actually having to talk to your opponent before playing a game is a bad thing? How many people do you think play without ever talking to their opponent before they meet for a game?
Yes it is a bad thing. First, it means that the rules are so poorly written that the players have to intervene to make them workable. Second, it completely ruins the idea of going to your LGS for a pick up game.
Why have point levels and point costs if they *don't* mean that equal points is equal power?
Kanluwen wrote: There is no guarantee that every single army is going to be able to summon up Daemons. Remember that there is two sides to Daemonology, the Sanctic side and the Malefic side.
So far we have only seen the Malefic side.
Remember the WD quote that says "all psykers get it"?
Will be interesting to see all the details we are missing - which is a lot.
We have no idea how some of the powers will be generated, or how will they will be cast in an actual game - we have a lot of speculation based upon snippets..but not much else.
For example. we don't know how many powers an army gets..it might not even be remotely related to how many psykers you get. Or it might be.
We don't know if you use the same "pool" of dice for both your casting AND your deny powers (i.e. use 4 dice to cast on spell, and 2 to deny...etc.).
We have no idea how perils works - is it a leadership check BEFORE you cast? Is it part of the dice you are rolling to get the power off?
Are tau/necrons/nids hosed? Are eldar and demons about to be 100x better? We have no idea yet.
