Me cron's.... went 2-1. Lost to the winner of the last major tournament, Round 1. The Maelstrom part was -1 to hit >18" so that really boned my shooty army. But that is the way its designed. Did 88w to his shadowstormbladelord (there was a mallion of these, the <32PL superheavies). After that celestine tore up my lines, and I just didn't have the bodies to counteract his and he overwhelmed me. 0-20 loss, he scored like 15 points, controlled the board and KEPT getting CP back ><
Second match was against a codex nids list, scythed herodule or something like that. The walking one, was him, a flying hivetyrant, the stormlord, exocrine, psykers, -1 to hit bugs, tervigons and devgaunts shooting twice. He played his list poorly, had alot of firepower but he didn't protect from the alpha well enough and I decimated his big bugs fairly quickly. 18-2 win for me
Third match was against GK, had a DK, Stormraven, Voldus, ven las dred, lots of flamers and paladins. He got first, took out my TA and DDA, at which point I thought it was gonna be a struggle but I tanked it out, and managed to table him, and score like 49-21! so 20-0 win to me.
So I bumrush the wraiths, C'tan and scarabs up the board, and clash as far foward as I need, then have them constantly disengage and my bikes and tesla blast away, then soak another charge and repeat ad infinitum. The big guns synergise SO well together, pylon and stalker is a necessity I feel now, its buff is a significant increase in power. The DDA and TA usually kill whatever they tag-team and giving the stalkers buff to a squad that my MWBD tesla immortals are looking at makes hordes wither.
Wraiths -
Spoiler:
I am in love. They do die to smite spam, and i've found in general the longer the wraiths stay alive, the better I do in a game. Smite does cut them down pretty quickly, as does the vortex. But against GK smite, thunderhammers, falchions, DK etc, they just roll 3++ for days and the damage just bounces off them. I had 4 last 4 rounds of combat with the SWARMLORD and effectively removed him from the game
Tomb blades -
Spoiler:
Again, these are standing out each and every tournament as the workhorses of the necron army. Against 3 catachan manticores they died pretty quickly, but they soaked a round of combat from tyranid warriors, shooting from an exocriene, flying hive tyrant and eaislly killed their points back, and then some! I think close to 550 points, not bad for a 380 pt unit. In that game they died 1.5 times, but they were at full model count at end of game. Against MEQ, after the DK died, they would just fly up 15" towards the closest squad, open up with 32 s5 -2 attacks, even the paladins (and any TEQ for that matter), the -2 ap really came in handy. Again, 8/8 died in this game yet they were at full strength at end of game. You take damage, fall back, shoot, kite away and heal up. They are a huge pain./spoiler]
Nightbringer - [spoiler]Recently I have been playing my crons with more reservation, holding them back waiting for their time to strike. The nightbringer is one such model that you have to be careful with. He does too much damage to suicide charge headlong into the fray barely supported. I am now keeping him as a nasty countercharge unit. Any melee focused list should be scared of him, he will kill a whole half of a board singlehandedly, but will get smited down hard. If left to himself he will asplode, which can do damage, but its not nearly as good as his normal powers. I used all 3 powers today and against 30 conscript blobs seismic assault worked very well, averaging 7 mortal wounds. Smite was handy, and best against non-horde nids, but times arrow also does wonders against custodes (2+/3+
+, who are super nasty BTW) or primaris psykers etc. I made him warlord so he could have that sweet 6+ FNP, although I hardly remembered it it does increase his durability quite noticeably. The extra attack when charging would be incredibly efficient, will try tomorrow if the matchup permits
Pylon -
Spoiler:
Finally pulled its weight, didn't whiff once, the stalker really does help its efficiency out. There were 8 pylons in 5 lists today, 3 friends all brought the same 2x pylon lists. Did not go well for them. 2 pylons will never be an effective list.
DDA vs TA -
Spoiler:
I think they both have a place and I think the extra - AP does add weight to the DDA, as well as S10 v S8. They focus the same target and it usually dies
Well it does a few things the DArk does not, moves and puts out higher damage, has anti CC mechanic, has an invul. And it has matching damage output on hordes. Also D6 hits is almost twice as much as D3 hits.
Little question aimed at the gathered knowledge here on this forum.
Me and e couple of gamers are doing a Tale of Painters competition starting with PL25 by the end of Nov, going up gradually.
My starting list is Lord + 10 Warriors + 3 Scarabs + 3 Scarabs + 2 Destroyers + Spyder (got it as a gift from one of them so there I go) for 4CP.
I am facing Harlequins, Deathwatch, CSM, Catachans, Nids and Sisters.
Any idea on what I should take for my next 10PL?
I have the following available:
Spoiler:
12 Wraiths
2 Triarch Stalkers
1 Night Scythe
10 Gauss Immortals
1 CCB 2 Annibarges
21 Scarabs
50 Warriors
2 Crypteks
1 Illuminor Szeras
1 Overlord
I thought about taking 3 Wraiths and a Destroyer,
or a Stalker or a Night Scythe basically, maybe Annibarge + Destroyer
Little question aimed at the gathered knowledge here on this forum.
Me and e couple of gamers are doing a Tale of Painters competition starting with PL25 by the end of Nov, going up gradually.
My starting list is Lord + 10 Warriors + 3 Scarabs + 3 Scarabs + 2 Destroyers + Spyder (got it as a gift from one of them so there I go) for 4CP.
I am facing Harlequins, Deathwatch, CSM, Catachans, Nids and Sisters.
Any idea on what I should take for my next 10PL?
I have the following available:
[spoiler]
12 Wraiths
2 Triarch Stalkers
1 Night Scythe
10 Gauss Immortals
1 CCB 2 Annibarges
21 Scarabs
50 Warriors
2 Crypteks
1 Illuminor Szeras
1 Overlord
I thought about taking 3 Wraiths and a Destroyer,
or a Stalker or a Night Scythe basically, maybe Annibarge + Destroyer
Any thoughts?
Right now the only thing I can see doing well in your starting list is the Scarabs (but it would be better to have them combined into one 6 strong unit).
Pyrothem wrote: Question. Can you change up your list or only add to it?
(If he can change his list)-
Any chance you can switch out that Lord for an Overlord and those Warriors for (tesla) Immortals?
Do that, combined with the 6 Scarabs, and you'll have one hell of a nasty little starting force.
But for clarification's sake, you're starting out at 25 PL, right? (not building up to 25, yes?)
How much do you add to it each time?
As for upgrading your army,
Maybe add in the remaining Scarabs and then the Wraiths.
2 Heat Ray Stalkers + 2 Annihilation Barges would make for a scary team against low armor targets.
Maybe even switch the Overlord for the CCB to get some Quantum Shielding spam going on.
If playing on PL only, remember that you can give your guys all the most expensive upgrades without it affecting their price, so load up on everything.
If I was making a 25 point list with what you've got:
Probably Will have you go get me some Tesla Immortals then?
I should probably mention that I go Maynarkh Dynasty, so Toholk will probably make it in as well as some Canoptek Constructs (next FW purchase most likely a Gauss Pylon and 2 Tomb Sentinels). Also fluff-wise, Maynarkh is aggressive so destroyers are Nice. Just don't want flayers.
We are starting off at PL25 (about 500pts) but later on it might turn into Points, so I hope that by then chapter approved is out with some point reductions
Automatically Appended Next Post: OH, I could drop Lord and 1 Destroyer foto a CCB maybe?
Don't get me wrong, I love Destroyers, but... at the moment they're just not a good choice (they perform well, it's just they're so over priced it's ridiculous, especially considering how easy they are to take down in the current meta).
Until Chapter Approved does something to fix them, I might suggest using points you were considering using on them on something else instead.
Well I Know for one that they Catachan dude has a Lemon and 3 missile Sentinels in his Force so that would be bad for the destroyers, but I don't have any anders to kill it without the destroyers unless you expect me toch rush it with scarabs..
2 destroyers get me 3 wraiths tho...
Also have a Night Scythe ready so might that work?
Don't get me wrong, I love Destroyers, but... at the moment they're just not a good choice (they perform well, it's just they're so over priced it's ridiculous, especially considering how easy they are to take down in the current meta).
Until Chapter Approved does something to fix them, I might suggest using points you were considering using on them on something else instead.
As it's not really tournament style I will try this PL25 list on Wednesday against Harlies:
Spoiler:
Canoptek Tomb Spyder
Destroyer Lord with Phylactery
3 Destroyers
2x3 Scarabs (or 1x6, but 2x6 is Outrider Detachment)
I know it's not our best units (and not cheap either). But he is fast with this list:
Wraiths>scarabs in every metric except price point. TA are far and above better than tomb stalkers/sentinels. Destoryers are too expensive, but chapter approved is coming out in 2 weeks, may see a price drop.
Klowny wrote: Wraiths>scarabs in every metric except price point. TA are far and above better than tomb stalkers/sentinels. Destoryers are too expensive, but chapter approved is coming out in 2 weeks, may see a price drop.
Except that Scarabs, point for point, do more damage than Wraiths. Wraiths pack a bigger punch into one model, but if you can get equal amounts (in points) of Scarabs as you can Wraiths into one target, the Scarabs do better.
Not gonna happen against a small model, like say a Captain. But against a big one, like a Land Raider?
I apologise, you are right on that regard, in a perfect world scarabs will out-damage wraiths. On the other hand scarabs die to a stiff breeze and are usually too spread out to get every model into combat.
I should have clarified, for their intended purpose, wraiths are better than scarabs. The purpose is to not die and harass other units. Neither squad does much in combat offensively, but wraiths just. dont. die.
Over the weekend I had wraiths tie up 4 kastellan robots +2 onager dunecrawlers for 3 turns, a swarmlord for 4 game turns, a GM dreadknight and a paladin squad for 2 turns (before kiting away at 5/6 strength), mortarion for 2 turns. Scarabs wouldnt be able to survive a single round of combat with any of those units. 3++ T5 12" ignoring everything is much, much better than T3 6+.
Against a land raider scarabs do .7 more of a wound than wraiths, so 2 wounds compared to 1.3 if Tor's calculator is correct.
DaKhriS wrote: Also have a Night Scythe ready so might that work?
Depends on what you're hoping to use that Night Scythe for.
If it's for transport, be prepared to be disappointed (guys have to get out before Scythe moves, and then can't move after that, only shoot. Dies easily, so if you've still got guys inside and that was your only portal, they're dead too).
If you're using it as a flying Annihilation Barge... it's okay.
(Once again, something that desperately needs fixing in C.A)
2 compared to 1.3 is a pretty hefty greater than 50% improvement. Admittedly, neither does much, but Necrons don't have the best anti-tank at the moment.
Another thing to consider is Mortal Wounds, which chop through both like butter-but Wraiths, being pricier, feel it harder.
I definitely think Wraiths have a place in Necron lists, but to say they're ALWAYS better than Scarabs doesn't sit well with me.
It's too bad we don't have one of those simulation runners that can settle things for us (you know, the ones that will be like "Who would win between 1000 Spartans and 1000 Samurai" and it will calculate the stats between the two forces and run the simulation a million times or whatever and give you the results).
I dunno, roughly equal points worth (let's say around 230 points) of Wraiths (6) and Scarabs (18) separately pairing off against various common targets? (simulated repeatedly for more accurate testing)
Well hearing all that changed my plan yet again (which I can, as tomorrow is my first game in our little competition).
So for PL25 (actualiteit PL24) I plan tot go Patrol with:
Cryptek, 10 Warriors, Spyder, 3 Scarabs and 2 Destroyers.
This because I need the Destroyers against his Starweaver.
When upgrading to PL35 I Will probably changed into Outrider Detachment and add:
Wraiths, 3 Scarabs and a Heavy Destroyer.
DaKhriS wrote: Also have a Night Scythe ready so might that work?
Depends on what you're hoping to use that Night Scythe for.
If it's for transport, be prepared to be disappointed (guys have to get out before Scythe moves, and then can't move after that, only shoot. Dies easily, so if you've still got guys inside and that was your only portal, they're dead too).
If you're using it as a flying Annihilation Barge... it's okay.
(Once again, something that desperately needs fixing in C.A)
So would be a hard to hit annihilation Barge without QS and 1 less Tesla Cannon?
So for PL25 (actualiteit PL24) I plan tot go Patrol with:
Cryptek, 10 Warriors, Spyder, 3 Scarabs and 2 Destroyers.
This because I need the Destroyers against his Starweaver.
Daedalus81 wrote: Natfka has details on Necrons, Orks, and Tau - presumably from the same source.
Necrons
Warlord Trait- Reduce damage inflicted on your Warlord by 1 with a minimum of 1.
Relic- 1 time per battle at the end of movement phase, remove the bearer of the relic and one unit within 3" and set them up anywhere on the battlefield out side of 9" away from enemy models
Stratagems
1. 2CP a Canoptek unit at the beginning of your turn gains Reanimation protocols until end of turn
2. 2CP re-roll reanimation protocol rolls of 1 this turn.
Getting Veil back is nice. You can now do a cheeky teleport where an HQ takes Zahndrekh with the Veil, and then Obyron takes Flayed Ones/Lychguard/etc. Basically what we were trying to do with the Deceiver but more reliably.
Strats are nice but nothing special. Wording makes it sound like Reanimation might change in how it works/when you roll it, but we'll have to see.
epaemil wrote: What is this Veil you're speaking of? Am new
In the last edition we had a Relic called Veil of Darkness that essentially did what this one does - it teleported the character and his unit across the table once per game.
Requizen wrote: Getting Veil back is nice. You can now do a cheeky teleport where an HQ takes Zahndrekh with the Veil, and then Obyron takes Flayed Ones/Lychguard/etc. Basically what we were trying to do with the Deceiver but more reliably.
Strats are nice but nothing special. Wording makes it sound like Reanimation might change in how it works/when you roll it, but we'll have to see.
2CP a Canoptek unit at the beginning of your turn gains Reanimation protocols until end of turn
Yea the wording is a bit strange - how would this stratagem work? If we read whats written in our index atm.
If 4 wraiths die on opponents turn, during eg shooting. Would I still be able to use this stratagem and then raise said wraiths during my turn?
Or do you have to have reanimation during said damage?
Im interpreting this as I DONT need the reanimation when the acutal wound happens, just in the beginning of my turn, but with the wording of this stratagem, it gets whiffy.
Reanimation is rolled in the beginning of your turn, that's when you need to have it, the rules for Reanimation Protocols don't say the model needs to have it when it was slain (although fluffwise that's how it works)
But as a pure game mechanic, not considering fluff, its an interesting idea
So for PL25 (actualiteit PL24) I plan tot go Patrol with:
Cryptek, 10 Warriors, Spyder, 3 Scarabs and 2 Destroyers.
This because I need the Destroyers against his Starweaver.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: The strats seems ok. Not bad and not OP.
The only problem I see is that they are 2CP. An elite army like Necrons doesn't have many CP.
The Veil is great.
With the Veil, the Deceiver and Zahn & Obby I'm not sure where Nightscythes will fit in.
Same place they've been since 8th dropped: the shelf until they fix the whole monolith/nightscythe reserves mechanic.
DaKhriS wrote: So for PL25 (actualiteit PL24) I plan tot go Patrol with:
Cryptek, 10 Warriors, Spyder, 3 Scarabs and 2 Destroyers.
This because I need the Destroyers against his Starweaver.
When upgrading to PL35 I Will probably changed into Outrider Detachment and add:
Wraiths, 3 Scarabs and a Heavy Destroyer.
Does this look better then?
To be honest, no. Unless you're playing against opponents who don't know how to fight Necrons, I'm afraid a list like that would be quickly demolished. It has very little cohesion.
• a Cryptek wants to be around lots expensive infantry to give out his buff, otherwise he's somewhat wasted.
• Warriors want big numbers to have any hope of contributing meaningfully to the army, both in terms of survival and damage output.
• a Spyder is typically taken to repair vehicles. You have none.
• you have Scarabs for your Spyder to replenish, but at only 3 in the unit they're probably going to be wiped out before it even has a chance to.
• any competent general will make sure you don't get to keep those Destroyers past turn two. They will be targeted first, and with only 2 they will be easily deleted before RP has a chance to kick in.
I could be wrong in all of this, but I don't have a lot of faith.
If you're absolutely dedicated to keeping that Spyder in the list, at least add a vehicle as well. Probably a Stalker with Heat Ray (the most effective weapon in low points games). Then give the Spyder literally every upgrade it can take (in PL games it doesn't affect its price) and it'll be somewhat more useful.
When using CP to reroll 1s on RP, it sounds like you can choose to spend the 2CP after you have rolled your dice and seen the result. Have I rolled a lot of ones and have a Cryptec nearby? Ok I'll spend the 2CP and reroll those ones. I'm not sure if I would spend those CP if I don't have a Cryptec boosting the unit unless it's critical that the unit gets more models up.
A cryptek won't boost Canoptec units since they are not infantry.
So for PL25 (actualiteit PL24) I plan tot go Patrol with:
Cryptek, 10 Warriors, Spyder, 3 Scarabs and 2 Destroyers.
This because I need the Destroyers against his Starweaver.
Doomsday Ark
Living Metal
Doomsday Cannon, 2x Gauss Flayer Array
Don't have DDA tho..
Yeah, sorry bout that. I forgot you never had one.
I went through the list of what you have and thought this might be the way to go;
Spoiler:
Patrol Detachment (Necrons)
HQ
Illuminor Szeras
Eldritch Lance
Troops
Immortals
Gauss Blaster, 10x Immortal
Elites
Triarch Stalker
Heat Ray, Massive Forelimbs
This list should tank nearly everything your coming up against unless the dice gods aren't on your side.
Szeras can buff your Immortals with either +1 BS, +1 T or +1 S. As well as 4+ RP but not 5+ invul. Depending on your D3 roll you could have a very strong 10 man unit of Immortals that will give your oppontents a hard time when playing. His S8 Lance is also a good Tank Killer or a unit with several wounds.
The Immortals will be your saving grace. The Gauss Immos should keep your oppontents infantry and other units with bad saves or low wounds at bay while you slowly Phalanx up the table. I would have suggested Tesla due to 5+ Tesla pops but then your army wouldn't have the AP to deal with 2-3+ save models so I thought that Gauss would be best for the moment.
Triarch Stalker will be your tank killer. The Targeting relay will also buff Szeras Lance so that you have a better chance of it landing successfully. As well as the Gauss Immos but because it ain't Tesla it's not as exciting re-rolling those 1s, lol. QS should be the bane of your oppontents tank killers as well
However, there is one issue I have with the TS and that's the weapon load out. Like Skoffs said above, the Heat Ray is probably the best Weapon to take for the TS at low PL due to it being a "worse" version of a THGC but with the ability to be used as a flamer when in close range. But, because Szeras also has a S8 -4 D6 Weapon I began to feel like the TS should upgrade its Heat Ray to the THGC for the extra 12" range and overall better damage output. Also, for whatever reason, if your oppontents have any T8 Models atleast the TS can now would on a 3+ rather then a 4+.
I left the Heat Ray on for the moment though as it's your army and I'm only trying to give out pointers while trying to make the best list possible out of what you have.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: When using CP to reroll 1s on RP, it sounds like you can choose to spend the 2CP after you have rolled your dice and seen the result. Have I rolled a lot of ones and have a Cryptec nearby? Ok I'll spend the 2CP and reroll those ones. I'm not sure if I would spend those CP if I don't have a Cryptec boosting the unit unless it's critical that the unit gets more models up.
A cryptek won't boost Canoptec units since they are not infantry.
If this is how it works or will work, then its fantastic for those yatzy moments, otherwise not so much considering spending 2 CP, in a army where we rarely get above 6-7 CP and being able to gamble 2CPs just for the sake of it.
So for PL25 (actualiteit PL24) I plan tot go Patrol with:
Cryptek, 10 Warriors, Spyder, 3 Scarabs and 2 Destroyers.
This because I need the Destroyers against his Starweaver.
Doomsday Ark
Living Metal
Doomsday Cannon, 2x Gauss Flayer Array
Don't have DDA tho..
Yeah, sorry bout that. I forgot you never had one.
I went through the list of what you have and thought this might be the way to go;
Spoiler:
Patrol Detachment (Necrons)
HQ
Illuminor Szeras
Eldritch Lance
Troops
Immortals
Gauss Blaster, 10x Immortal
Elites
Triarch Stalker
Heat Ray, Massive Forelimbs
This list should tank nearly everything your coming up against unless the dice gods aren't on your side.
Szeras can buff your Immortals with either +1 BS, +1 T or +1 S. As well as 4+ RP but not 5+ invul. Depending on your D3 roll you could have a very strong 10 man unit of Immortals that will give your oppontents a hard time when playing. His S8 Lance is also a good Tank Killer or a unit with several wounds.
The Immortals will be your saving grace. The Gauss Immos should keep your oppontents infantry and other units with bad saves or low wounds at bay while you slowly Phalanx up the table. I would have suggested Tesla due to 5+ Tesla pops but then your army wouldn't have the AP to deal with 2-3+ save models so I thought that Gauss would be best for the moment.
Triarch Stalker will be your tank killer. The Targeting relay will also buff Szeras Lance so that you have a better chance of it landing successfully. As well as the Gauss Immos but because it ain't Tesla it's not as exciting re-rolling those 1s, lol. QS should be the bane of your oppontents tank killers as well
However, there is one issue I have with the TS and that's the weapon load out. Like Skoffs said above, the Heat Ray is probably the best Weapon to take for the TS at low PL due to it being a "worse" version of a THGC but with the ability to be used as a flamer when in close range. But, because Szeras also has a S8 -4 D6 Weapon I began to feel like the TS should upgrade its Heat Ray to the THGC for the extra 12" range and overall better damage output. Also, for whatever reason, if your oppontents have any T8 Models atleast the TS can now would on a 3+ rather then a 4+.
I left the Heat Ray on for the moment though as it's your army and I'm only trying to give out pointers while trying to make the best list possible out of what you have.
Wouldn't the Immortals get charged by the harlequin troope and just die? Harlies are deadly in CC...
I gave it some thought and upon all y'all advice would want to use the Triarch Stalker so came up with this:
Spoiler:
Cryptek (For ++ and RP boost)
10 Warriors (weight of fire)
Triarch Stalker (Heat Ray + re-roll 1s)
Spyder (Fixing the Stalker)
That gets me to PL24 so then I can add 6 Scarabs and 3 Weaiths on the following increment to PL35 (will be PL34 then)
So Destroyers will be for january, when I can field 9 at a time in my upgrade to PL45 (and meybe they got cheaper by then ^^)
Wouldn't the Immortals get charged by the harlequin troope and just die? Harlies are deadly in CC...
I gave it some thought and upon all y'all advice would want to use the Triarch Stalker so came up with this
True, quins will wreck gak but you could target them 1st if possible? Or, you could swap out Szeras for a basic Cryptek to get enough PL left over for a unit of Scarabs to protect the immos?
Personally, if you are going with the list you just suggested I would drop the Sypder for 3 simple reasons.
Spoiler:
1. Easy "First Blood" kill for your opponent as nothing stops them from targeting it. It's general stats are meh and it's save is not going to help it survive much either.
2. If, for whatever reason, you some how lose your Triarch Stalker on your oppontents T1 and it goes to your T1 then what will the Sypders roll be? Does it become a 78-90pt objective holders? Or, does it run across the field soaking up Shooting attacks? Or, does it hide in some Terrain to be used as a "if it stays alive I can't be tabled" unit? If your Sypders roll is to heal and do nothing else then it's wasted points when you cant do its job for whatever reason or if it's popped before you even get to use it.
3. The minute you heal something and your opponent sees that you will have doomed your vehicle. So here's the picture; it's your turn 1 after your opponent. He did 3 damage to your Triarch Stalker, you tell your opponent that the TS can gain a wound a turn, he trys to play off that hes not a bit pissed and tells you "okay, cool rule I guess". You then go to the end of the movement phase, tell your opponent you can now heal D3 of the Stalker thanks to the Fab Clawed Sypder, roll your D3 get a 3-4 to gain 2 wounds (meaning that you now took no wounds in the previous turn). You turn to look at your opponent and you see a rage and hatred that is stronger then that of the C'tan Vs The Old Ones. Now on his turn 2 not only will he fuq up your Sypder to prevent it's healing abilities but you've also got your Triarch Stalker involved and it's now being rained down by focus fire from your oppontents army and puff.... it's gone. So, because you wanted to make your Triarch Stalker last longer you have now made it priority no.1 for your opponent to shoot down.
I give you these reasons based on my own experience. I have used the Sypder 5 times in 8th and in those 5 games 2 of the above reasons happened to me in every game and made a major impact on the remainder of my games.
The thing is, While you might see the healing as a bonus it can actually be a hindrance when your healed unit is now being focus fired to death.
Bring the Spyder if you feel like it will pull it's weight just don't be upset if your plan doesn't go the way you wanted and you notice that your oppontents play a bit more vicious after you heal up the Triarch Stalker. Best thing to do is play a game or 2 with your list and evaluate the list afterwards to see what you are lacking and to see what way youd like to play.
Wouldn't the Immortals get charged by the harlequin troope and just die? Harlies are deadly in CC...
I gave it some thought and upon all y'all advice would want to use the Triarch Stalker so came up with this
True, quins will wreck gak but you could target them 1st if possible? Or, you could swap out Szeras for a basic Cryptek to get enough PL left over for a unit of Scarabs to protect the immos?
Personally, if you are going with the list you just suggested I would drop the Sypder for 3 simple reasons.
1. Easy "First Blood" kill for your opponent as nothing stops them from targeting it. It's general stats are meh and it's save is not going to help it survive much either.
2. If, for whatever reason, you some how lose your Triarch Stalker on your oppontents T1 and it goes to your T1 then what will the Sypders roll be? Does it become a 78-90pt objective holders? Or, does it run across the field soaking up Shooting attacks? Or, does it hide in some Terrain to be used as a "if it stays alive I can't be tabled" unit? If your Sypders roll is to heal and do nothing else then it's wasted points when you cant do its job for whatever reason or if it's popped before you even get to use it.
3. The minute you heal something and your opponent sees that you will have doomed your vehicle. So here's the picture; it's your turn 1 after your opponent. He did 3 damage to your Triarch Stalker, you tell your opponent that the TS can gain a wound a turn, he trys to play off that hes not a bit pissed and tells you "okay, cool rule I guess". You then go to the end of the movement phase, tell your opponent you can now heal D3 of the Stalker thanks to the Fab Clawed Sypder, roll your D3 get a 3-4 to gain 2 wounds (meaning that you now took no wounds in the previous turn). You turn to look at your opponent and you see a rage and hatred that is stronger then that of the C'tan Vs The Old Ones. Now on his turn 2 not only will he fuq up your Sypder to prevent it's healing abilities but you've also got your Triarch Stalker involved and it's now being rained down by focus fire from your oppontents army and puff.... it's gone. So, because you wanted to make your Triarch Stalker last longer you have now made it priority no.1 for your opponent to shoot down.
I give you these reasons based on my own experience. I have used the Sypder 5 times in 8th and in those 5 games 2 of the above reasons happened to me in every game and made a major impact on the remainder of my games.
The thing is, While you might see the healing as a bonus it can actually be a hindrance when your healed unit is now being focus fired to death.
Bring the Spyder if you feel like it will pull it's weight just don't be upset if your plan doesn't go the way you wanted and you notice that your oppontents play a bit more vicious after you heal up the Triarch Stalker. Best thing to do is play a game or 2 with your list and evaluate the list afterwards to see what you are lacking and to see what way youd like to play.
I've tried the Spyder multiple times and it has very limited use besides the fact that your opponent will most likely oneshot it.
I would drop it for something else, scarabs most likely, considering how great they are.
The Scarabs will give you some mobility and also screening your warriors from potential nasty charge, and for the PL you get 6 of em!
I've tried the Spyder multiple times and it has very limited use besides the fact that your opponent will most likely oneshot it.
I would drop it for something else, scarabs most likely, considering how great they are.
Realistically with the leak of the Necron Relics and Stratagems the Spyder could become an "okay" unit. If you have 3 in a unit then you could give it RP for 2 CP which will help out with the units terrible resilience. Also, if it gets a point drop to bout 50-60 pts including wargear I could see people running them in units of 3 as it would be 3 ways to heal D3 wounds to 3 different Vehicles for a cheap enough tax.
It's just not worth having more than 1 per unit at the moment and thats the reason it does so bad. It's supposed to be in units of 2-3 to help with its resilience but because of our index and the way Scarabs now come back it just never viable to run more then 1 Sypder.
Alas, here's hoping Chap. Approve helps us where we need it most. Resilience, Points cost and standing ground agaisnt Codex armies.
Wouldn't the Immortals get charged by the harlequin troope and just die? Harlies are deadly in CC...
I gave it some thought and upon all y'all advice would want to use the Triarch Stalker so came up with this
True, quins will wreck gak but you could target them 1st if possible? Or, you could swap out Szeras for a basic Cryptek to get enough PL left over for a unit of Scarabs to protect the immos?
Personally, if you are going with the list you just suggested I would drop the Sypder for 3 simple reasons.
1. Easy "First Blood" kill for your opponent as nothing stops them from targeting it. It's general stats are meh and it's save is not going to help it survive much either.
2. If, for whatever reason, you some how lose your Triarch Stalker on your oppontents T1 and it goes to your T1 then what will the Sypders roll be? Does it become a 78-90pt objective holders? Or, does it run across the field soaking up Shooting attacks? Or, does it hide in some Terrain to be used as a "if it stays alive I can't be tabled" unit? If your Sypders roll is to heal and do nothing else then it's wasted points when you cant do its job for whatever reason or if it's popped before you even get to use it.
3. The minute you heal something and your opponent sees that you will have doomed your vehicle. So here's the picture; it's your turn 1 after your opponent. He did 3 damage to your Triarch Stalker, you tell your opponent that the TS can gain a wound a turn, he trys to play off that hes not a bit pissed and tells you "okay, cool rule I guess". You then go to the end of the movement phase, tell your opponent you can now heal D3 of the Stalker thanks to the Fab Clawed Sypder, roll your D3 get a 3-4 to gain 2 wounds (meaning that you now took no wounds in the previous turn). You turn to look at your opponent and you see a rage and hatred that is stronger then that of the C'tan Vs The Old Ones. Now on his turn 2 not only will he fuq up your Sypder to prevent it's healing abilities but you've also got your Triarch Stalker involved and it's now being rained down by focus fire from your oppontents army and puff.... it's gone. So, because you wanted to make your Triarch Stalker last longer you have now made it priority no.1 for your opponent to shoot down.
I give you these reasons based on my own experience. I have used the Sypder 5 times in 8th and in those 5 games 2 of the above reasons happened to me in every game and made a major impact on the remainder of my games.
The thing is, While you might see the healing as a bonus it can actually be a hindrance when your healed unit is now being focus fired to death.
Bring the Spyder if you feel like it will pull it's weight just don't be upset if your plan doesn't go the way you wanted and you notice that your oppontents play a bit more vicious after you heal up the Triarch Stalker. Best thing to do is play a game or 2 with your list and evaluate the list afterwards to see what you are lacking and to see what way youd like to play.
I've tried the Spyder multiple times and it has very limited use besides the fact that your opponent will most likely oneshot it.
I would drop it for something else, scarabs most likely, considering how great they are.
The Scarabs will give you some mobility and also screening your warriors from potential nasty charge, and for the PL you get 6 of em!
Well I could grab 6 Scarabs instead and then upgrade a Spyder in at PL35 to help replenish them. I like the Spyder model and as it's a gift from one of the opponents, so by then Ice have it heal a Stalker and replenish Scarabs (if it doesn't kill itself). Ik also have it full upgrades, so it can shoot too..
DaKhriS wrote: Cryptek (For ++ and RP boost)
10 Warriors (weight of fire)
Ten Warriors is not exactly what most people would consider "weight of fire".
Even with a Cryptek giving them 5++ against shooting and a 4+++ RP they're going to be very easy to remove.
Hell, at this point, if you're that worried about CC, I might even consider Praetorians, if you have them.
Either that or a unit of Wraiths and Scarabs to tie threats up.
I've tried the Spyder multiple times and it has very limited use besides the fact that your opponent will most likely oneshot it.
I would drop it for something else, scarabs most likely, considering how great they are.
Realistically with the leak of the Necron Relics and Stratagems the Spyder could become an "okay" unit. If you have 3 in a unit then you could give it RP for 2 CP which will help out with the units terrible resilience. Also, if it gets a point drop to bout 50-60 pts including wargear I could see people running them in units of 3 as it would be 3 ways to heal D3 wounds to 3 different Vehicles for a cheap enough tax.
It's just not worth having more than 1 per unit at the moment and thats the reason it does so bad. It's supposed to be in units of 2-3 to help with its resilience but because of our index and the way Scarabs now come back it just never viable to run more then 1 Sypder.
Alas, here's hoping Chap. Approve helps us where we need it most. Resilience, Points cost and standing ground agaisnt Codex armies.
I didn't realize the spyders worked as a single unit when you took multiple, I thought they were deployed as a single unit and then acted independent of each other, wow.
Some (read lots) pts reduction for them and better group cohesiveness and we actually might have something here!
Daedalus81 wrote: Natfka has details on Necrons, Orks, and Tau - presumably from the same source.
Necrons
Warlord Trait- Reduce damage inflicted on your Warlord by 1 with a minimum of 1.
Relic- 1 time per battle at the end of movement phase, remove the bearer of the relic and one unit within 3" and set them up anywhere on the battlefield out side of 9" away from enemy models
Stratagems
1. 2CP a Canoptek unit at the beginning of your turn gains Reanimation protocols until end of turn
2. 2CP re-roll reanimation protocol rolls of 1 this turn.
The wraith star has just gotten a huge buff if this is true. Give the relic, warlord trait to the nightbringer, T1 the nightbringer is in the combat he wants to be, and if the wraiths go down to one model, blow 4CP and potentially get a 4+RP rerolling 1's, if a cryptek's around somehow. Getting 3-4 wraiths back with average rolls and its looking way more fun.
Klowny wrote: The wraith star has just gotten a huge buff if this is true. [...] if the wraiths go down to one model, blow 4CP and potentially get a 4+RP rerolling 1's, if a cryptek's around somehow. Getting 3-4 wraiths back with average rolls and its looking way more fun.
As has been pointed out already, Crypteks only buff the RP of Infantry.
None of the Canoptek units have the Infantry keyword so would not be able to benefit from them (highly doubtful they would bother changing how that would work).
Necrons
Warlord Trait- Reduce damage inflicted on your Warlord by 1 with a minimum of 1.
Relic- 1 time per battle at the end of movement phase, remove the bearer of the relic and one unit within 3" and set them up anywhere on the battlefield out side of 9" away from enemy models
Stratagems
1. 2CP a Canoptek unit at the beginning of your turn gains Reanimation protocols until end of turn
2. 2CP re-roll reanimation protocol rolls of 1 this turn.
The wraith star has just gotten a huge buff if this is true. Give the relic, warlord trait to the nightbringer, T1 the nightbringer is in the combat he wants to be, and if the wraiths go down to one model, blow 4CP and potentially get a 4+RP rerolling 1's, if a cryptek's around somehow. Getting 3-4 wraiths back with average rolls and its looking way more fun.
Wraith-star aswell as Mosquito-star (Canoptek Acanthrites), I have only tried the Acanthrites once and wow they did a lot of damage, and now seeing these two stratagems makes me wonder how much more carnage they will be able to do and also whats dakkas general take on the Acanthrites? Especially now with the stratagems.
Klowny wrote: The wraith star has just gotten a huge buff if this is true. [...] if the wraiths go down to one model, blow 4CP and potentially get a 4+RP rerolling 1's, if a cryptek's around somehow. Getting 3-4 wraiths back with average rolls and its looking way more fun.
As has been pointed out already, Crypteks only buff the RP of Infantry.
None of the Canoptek units have the Infantry keyword so would not be able to benefit from them (highly doubtful they would bother changing how that would work).
Your thinking about the 5+ invul save Skoffs. Canoptek units will benefit from +1 RP because Tomb Blades can be buffed but lack the Infantry keyword.
Also, taken from the normal Crypteks datasheet; Add 1 to all Reanimation Protocol rolls for models from friendly DYNASTY units within 3" of any friendly DYNASTY CRYPTEKS.
Nah skoffs, those strats and the relic are just a leak from chapter approved, expect much more to be coming .
Anyone got thoughts on using the veil with 20 warriors to deliver the nastiest rapid fire squad ever to delete a unit?
Potentially grand illusion in the deceiver and a ghost ark with 10 warriors and if lucky on the illusion, a cryptek as well?
Massive blob delivered to face with ghost ark support for more firing and more RP roles with warriors on board ready to reinforce and the deceiver waiting to get this ass up in combat but protected by all the warriors?
40 shots is 80/3 hits. Against MEQs, that's 40/3 wounds, and 20/3 unsaved wounds, or about 7 dead Marines. That's... Not exactly stellar.
Well I guess I would forget to say obliviously the one using the veil would most likely be an overlord so those warriors would have MWB on them so hitting on 2+ is a lot more shots connecting. Certainly wouldn't expect it to delete a mob of marines in cover or anything like that. Would be much better at causing insane pressure on one side of the board, would really depend what army you went against, just gleefully theory-crafting at these new shiny additions.
We can already deliver 20 Warriors into rapid fire range with the Deceiver, but no one's doing it (because it's not a very good strategy). Having the Veil back probably won't change that much, unless something else has been changed about Warriors that we're unaware of.
Assuming we can only get one Veil in an Army, I'm seeing the return of the Zahndrekh-Obyron Slingshot delivering Scythe Lychguard being the most potentially useful application.
If it turns out to be just a regular upgrade (like ResOrbs), oh man, I'm going to be delivering a TON of Gauss Immortals to my opponent's backdoor!
Anrakyr and his lych spring to mind, now dont need 1 million transports to get it DS in. Still runs the risk of failing the charge, but with +1 to charges it makes it an 8" on 2 dice, not impossible.
skoffs wrote: Assuming we can only get one Veil in an Army, I'm seeing the return of the Zahndrekh-Obyron Slingshot delivering Scythe Lychguard being the most potentially useful application.
Either using the Veil of Darkness on a unit of lychguard or teleporting a unit of gauss immortals seems to be my favourite two options. Especially when you can use MWBD on a unit of lychguard, which will add 1 to the charge roll, making them take an 8'' charge instead of a 9'' charge. Though with this loadout, i'm not sure if swords and shields or scythes would be better. Might even be worth taking a res orb with lychguard, though if lychguard don't become cheaper in CA i don't see this working out too well. Killing a squad of 10 lychguard is not difficult for some armies.
Another potential, but more minor and situational, application of the Veil of Darkness could be to teleport the overlord plus another unit (lychguard, warriors, immortals, or even a cryptek) beside a unit of deathmarks or flayed ones. I'd say this strategy probably wouldn't really work, but if they made deathmarks or flayed ones cheaper in CA, maybe it'd be a more viable option.
Perhaps using the veil of darkness alongside the deceiver could produce a sort of alpha strike option. I find that using zandrekh and obyron with the deceiver is very expensive, so I tend to shy away from using that combo. Also, you're guaranteed two other units (apart from the deceiver and overlord) to be able to go up the board.
In 7th, a cryptek could also take the veil of darkness, so maybe there's the option of using the veil with a cryptek?
Some relics are usable by any Character, aren't they? Ostensibly the Nightbringer and Deceiver could use this new veil, depending. Which would be neat, at least.
With regards to Zandrekh and Obyron, what should Zandrekh bring with him when he uses the veil? Without exact wording, the leak only says "unit," so you could bring vehicles, beasts, and so on.
An auxiliary detachment for an understrength unit of Warriors in a Ghost Ark, along with a Cryptek from somewhere else, would get you the most value -- however disembarking is done at the start of the movement phase, while all this teleporting is done at the end, so Zandrekh has nothing to hide in and the Lychguard won't benefit from the Cryptek until the following turn.
10 Gauss Immortals, or 20 Warriors? Getting a Turn 1 charge out of this combination is already costing a lot and so saving some points on Zandrekh's bodyguard is likely wise.
Either way, your HQ's are both now far afield and the rest of your army needs to catch up. I don't know if Lychguard are effective enough to be worth investing so much to get a charge on turn 1 when you could use Kutlakh or Anrakyr with your chosen assault unit, and get a turn 2 charge for fewer points.
Kutlakh himself is a bit underwhelming offensively but he gives Lychguard the ability to advance and charge, on top of MWBD. Anrakyr won't be able to keep in range for his attack aura, but can affect Praetorians with MWBD for both shooting and assault.
Would be nice if perhaps Toholk got some canoptek interaction, invul bubble perhaps, his canoptek creations is what he's famous for, in the fluff at least
Drakmord wrote: Some relics are usable by any Character, aren't they? Ostensibly the Nightbringer and Deceiver could use this new veil, depending. Which would be neat, at least.
i think our named characters won't have access to relics, since usually in current codex armies, unique characters don't have access to relics. The veil of darkness has traditionally been put on a lord, overlord, cryptek, or destroyer lord, so i don't see the nightbringer or deceiver being able to take the veil.
Drakmord wrote: With regards to Zandrekh and Obyron, what should Zandrekh bring with him when he uses the veil? Without exact wording, the leak only says "unit," so you could bring vehicles, beasts, and so on.
It would be interesting to see if the veil of darkness can take any unit, or just <faction> infantry units.
Drakmord wrote: Either way, your HQ's are both now far afield and the rest of your army needs to catch up. I don't know if Lychguard are effective enough to be worth investing so much to get a charge on turn 1 when you could use Kutlakh or Anrakyr with your chosen assault unit, and get a turn 2 charge for fewer points.
Using the deceiver's grand illusion + an overlord/destroyer lord with veil of darkness can alleviate this issue. On a good roll, the deceiver can teleport up most of your army, and in the best case scenario, 4 units + the deceiver and an overlord can be teleported up.
true. you would use the deceiver to get zandrekh up the board and then have obyron + another unit go up the board as well. If you roll a 3 on the grand illusion, you can teleport 2 more units up the field as well.
My question is, do we really need the zandrekh obyron combo now that we have the veil of darkness? Bringing both zandrekh and obyron costs 331 points, whereas bringing an overlord with a warscythe and veil of darkness would cost 112 (assuming that relics are free, but relics are always free in codices).
Or perhaps bringing the deceiver + zandrekh + obyron + overlord with veil of darkness could be viable? That's an 8'' charge with one unit, and a practically automatic charge with another
When are we supposed to be hearing more?
I gotta find out if they've un-useless-ed Night Scythes for transport yet before I decide whether I want to fully commit to an Immortal Legion.
Drakmord wrote: Some relics are usable by any Character, aren't they? Ostensibly the Nightbringer and Deceiver could use this new veil, depending. Which would be neat, at least.
With regards to Zandrekh and Obyron, what should Zandrekh bring with him when he uses the veil? Without exact wording, the leak only says "unit," so you could bring vehicles, beasts, and so on.
An auxiliary detachment for an understrength unit of Warriors in a Ghost Ark, along with a Cryptek from somewhere else, would get you the most value -- however disembarking is done at the start of the movement phase, while all this teleporting is done at the end, so Zandrekh has nothing to hide in and the Lychguard won't benefit from the Cryptek until the following turn.
10 Gauss Immortals, or 20 Warriors? Getting a Turn 1 charge out of this combination is already costing a lot and so saving some points on Zandrekh's bodyguard is likely wise.
Either way, your HQ's are both now far afield and the rest of your army needs to catch up. I don't know if Lychguard are effective enough to be worth investing so much to get a charge on turn 1 when you could use Kutlakh or Anrakyr with your chosen assault unit, and get a turn 2 charge for fewer points.
Kutlakh himself is a bit underwhelming offensively but he gives Lychguard the ability to advance and charge, on top of MWBD. Anrakyr won't be able to keep in range for his attack aura, but can affect Praetorians with MWBD for both shooting and assault.
I'm more thinking about potential army bonuses with Kutlakh in the future. Sure he doesn't do much offensively BUT he's almost always hitting and who knows what Dynasty bonuses are coming?
Wouldn't the Immortals get charged by the harlequin troope and just die? Harlies are deadly in CC...
I gave it some thought and upon all y'all advice would want to use the Triarch Stalker so came up with this
True, quins will wreck gak but you could target them 1st if possible? Or, you could swap out Szeras for a basic Cryptek to get enough PL left over for a unit of Scarabs to protect the immos?
Personally, if you are going with the list you just suggested I would drop the Sypder for 3 simple reasons.
Spoiler:
1. Easy "First Blood" kill for your opponent as nothing stops them from targeting it. It's general stats are meh and it's save is not going to help it survive much either.
2. If, for whatever reason, you some how lose your Triarch Stalker on your oppontents T1 and it goes to your T1 then what will the Sypders roll be? Does it become a 78-90pt objective holders? Or, does it run across the field soaking up Shooting attacks? Or, does it hide in some Terrain to be used as a "if it stays alive I can't be tabled" unit? If your Sypders roll is to heal and do nothing else then it's wasted points when you cant do its job for whatever reason or if it's popped before you even get to use it.
3. The minute you heal something and your opponent sees that you will have doomed your vehicle. So here's the picture; it's your turn 1 after your opponent. He did 3 damage to your Triarch Stalker, you tell your opponent that the TS can gain a wound a turn, he trys to play off that hes not a bit pissed and tells you "okay, cool rule I guess". You then go to the end of the movement phase, tell your opponent you can now heal D3 of the Stalker thanks to the Fab Clawed Sypder, roll your D3 get a 3-4 to gain 2 wounds (meaning that you now took no wounds in the previous turn). You turn to look at your opponent and you see a rage and hatred that is stronger then that of the C'tan Vs The Old Ones. Now on his turn 2 not only will he fuq up your Sypder to prevent it's healing abilities but you've also got your Triarch Stalker involved and it's now being rained down by focus fire from your oppontents army and puff.... it's gone. So, because you wanted to make your Triarch Stalker last longer you have now made it priority no.1 for your opponent to shoot down.
I give you these reasons based on my own experience. I have used the Sypder 5 times in 8th and in those 5 games 2 of the above reasons happened to me in every game and made a major impact on the remainder of my games.
The thing is, While you might see the healing as a bonus it can actually be a hindrance when your healed unit is now being focus fired to death.
Bring the Spyder if you feel like it will pull it's weight just don't be upset if your plan doesn't go the way you wanted and you notice that your oppontents play a bit more vicious after you heal up the Triarch Stalker. Best thing to do is play a game or 2 with your list and evaluate the list afterwards to see what you are lacking and to see what way youd like to play.
He had his Harlies in a starweaver that first charged my warriors along with his bikes (guaranteed 16" move + 6" advance + charge is brutal). Next round he hopped out to help kill the squad. Lost the last 2 warriors by rolling a 6 on Morales with no CP left...
I was surprised at how effectively he took wounds from the stalker with his normal harlie troops. QS never kicking in against the AP-2 1D. Ended up winning the PL25 game by Victory Points (Scarabs killing his Death jester was golden).
PL35 saw me adding the Spyder and 3 Wraiths. Spyder fit focused en died too fast... It just doesn't have the wounds to weather anything. The Wraiths on the other hand were very tough and quite damaging against their T3.
Glad I got 2 victories but then again Harlies are also a weak army with not enough model diversity, although he will probably ally in some Craftworld stuff.
Next upgrade in januari is PL15 (16 in my case, so 50 Total).
Glad I got 2 victories but then again Harlies are also a weak army with not enough model diversity, although he will probably ally in some Craftworld stuff.
Next upgrade in januari is PL15 (16 in my case, so 50 Total).
Im happy it went your way.
Did you like the scarabs unit?
10 Warriors, 3 Wraiths and 6 Scarabs
Is probably what I would go with. Some more warriors for your shooting and wraiths for some more annoyance, being hard to kill unless the enemy have lots of smite / mortal wounds.
And ofcourse our golden bugs, the scarabs! They can never go wrong, atleast not from my experience!
My question is, do we really need the zandrekh obyron combo now that we have the veil of darkness? Bringing both zandrekh and obyron costs 331 points, whereas bringing an overlord with a warscythe and veil of darkness would cost 112 (assuming that relics are free, but relics are always free in codices).
Well, there's no point basing unit combos on current points when everything with an Index is get re-evaluated. Everything in our army will have a roll so it's not like the VoD is going to take over Zahndrekh/Obyron. If anything it might be helpful if we can add relics to our Named HQs.
I'm more thinking about potential army bonuses with Kutlakh in the future. Sure he doesn't do much offensively BUT he's almost always hitting and who knows what Dynasty bonuses are coming?
I agree with your statement. We have 4 Dynasties in the Index so we at least have 4 different Dynasties that will all go different Buffs and Synergies. Chapter Approved is a sneak peak into the power we will have. Hopefully the wait for the Codex isn't too long after Chaos Daemons. I would imagine Maynarkh Dynasty will be our "CC" Dynasty based on their fluff and how they always get their orders done.
Anrakyr and his lych spring to mind
I'm thinking Anrakyr w/ Vod to deploy 10 Lychguard to not suffer from not charging + Deceiver to deploy Szeras and 20 Warriors. That would be an okay core with a bit of flexibility.
PL35 saw me adding the Spyder and 3 Wraiths. Spyder fit focused en died too fast... It just doesn't have the wounds to weather anything. The Wraiths on the other hand were very tough and quite damaging against their T3.
At least you know how the Sypder works now. Not that well. However, 6 Wraiths will be very reliable as off next week. Also, in 7th you needed a Spyder to give RP to Wraiths. Now all you need is to spend 2 CP so it's actually some-what better.
Also, the Re-rolling 1s for RP works for every unit that urn not just 1 so it looks like we will get our resilience back.
Is there a reason you're taking Warriors despite them performing so badly?
(Is it because your initial list is locked in and now you can't swap them out, only add things?)
Glad I got 2 victories but then again Harlies are also a weak army with not enough model diversity, although he will probably ally in some Craftworld stuff.
Next upgrade in januari is PL15 (16 in my case, so 50 Total).
Im happy it went your way.
Did you like the scarabs unit?
10 Warriors, 3 Wraiths and 6 Scarabs
Is probably what I would go with. Some more warriors for your shooting and wraiths for some more annoyance, being hard to kill unless the enemy have lots of smite / mortal wounds.
And ofcourse our golden bugs, the scarabs! They can never go wrong, atleast not from my experience!
Yep, Scarabs are Nice, if only as a distraction to take fire
Is there a reason you're taking Warriors despite them performing so badly?
(Is it because your initial list is locked in and now you can't swap them out, only add things?)
Yeah, Original list is fixed, can only add units, but next time Will then combineren my 2x3 Scarabs into one 6-base, at least if I add in 3 more. Could also go CCB + 3 Wraiths ofcourse, as I like Canoptek (though regret the Lack of RP unless you Shell out CP's...)
I think Deceiver + Veil will be nice. Teleporting Gauss immortals in cover in rapid fire range can be devastating.
Teleporting Wraiths should be nice too
skoffs wrote: When are we supposed to be hearing more? I gotta find out if they've un-useless-ed Night Scythes for transport yet before I decide whether I want to fully commit to an Immortal Legion.
I do not believe there are going to be any changes to unit profiles in Chapter Approved beyond adjusting point costs. They said everybody gets at least one WT, relic, and stratagem, with some armies getting a few more, but I have not seen any mention of profiles. Considering the brevity of the previous leak I'm afraid this is going to be all we get until our codex comes around.
---
With regards to using the Veil to set up assaults, considering how much of a pain it is to do, I have to wonder if it's really worth it. You pay a lot to get one unit into assault, while other armies have no need to jump through hoops to deliver equally-or-more powerful units into enemy ranks. Not a complaint about other peoples' toys but rather that we're still missing the rest of ours -- dynasty tactics, more relics and a fuller panoply of stratagems ought to make it more palatable but until then, Necron lists have more flexible uses for the points.
Of course CA could be generous and give us steep discounts, I'm just not holding my breath!
The VOD really increases the value of Zandrekh's stock just as an HQ
Having something like a Transcendant C'tan zip up with a MWBD unit that's also had Transcient Madness is pretty solid. Transcient Madness is a really good buff, if random , but the VOD can compensate for it a lot.
The thing the Veil has over the Deceiver (besides price) is the fact that everyone can get their beginning of turn buffs (eg. MWBD).
If you use Deceiver to move Zahndrekh up, he'll be there away from everyone else at the beginning of the turn, meaning no one near him will benefit from his buffs.
With this, if the bearer is an Overlord, the unit being moved will start the turn next to him to get his buff, then they'll all get to Veil up.
But for real, if there's nothing in C.A that fixes our flyers, then there's no real reason for anyone to take them anymore.
But for real, if there's nothing in C.A that fixes our flyers, then there's no real reason for anyone to take them anymore.
Would you take them if they had a good points decrease? N.Scythe is 174pt and a D.Scythe is 220pts currently but if the N.Scythe became 124-134pts (let's says that it still has no Transport keyword due to no new rules) and the D.Scythe became 170-180pts. Would you consider taking them as you could field more for less but with current rules and stats?
It'd be nice to see the doomscythe firing the heavy weapon at full BS too
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote: The thing the Veil has over the Deceiver (besides price) is the fact that everyone can get their beginning of turn buffs (eg. MWBD).
If you use Deceiver to move Zahndrekh up, he'll be there away from everyone else at the beginning of the turn, meaning no one near him will benefit from his buffs.
With this, if the bearer is an Overlord, the unit being moved will start the turn next to him to get his buff, then they'll all get to Veil up.
But for real, if there's nothing in C.A that fixes our flyers, then there's no real reason for anyone to take them anymore.
Ah yes, this is an important distinction
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah nice buff would be to have MWBD happen anytime during the movement phase, it would strengthen the deep strike shenanigans we can pull off and allow the CCB to have great potential range for it's ability
With armies such as alaitoc, alpha legion, and raven guard, who have -1 to hit penalties for shooting at a unit outside of 12'', i think the deceiver and veil of darkness could be our answer to those armies. The deceiver teleporting d3 units of gauss immortals, wraiths, or warriors and having a squad of lycguard or another unit of gauss immortals teleport up with the overlord with the veil of darkness can solve the problem of shooting units outside of 12''.
I've got a few eldar players in my gaming group, so hopefully i should be able to use these to my advantage.
Odrankt wrote: Would you take them if they had a good points decrease?
Doubtful.
If they don't fix anything but the price,
The Night Scythe will still be a crappy way to "transport" Infantry,
And the Doom Scythe will still be shooting its big gun at BS4.
Pretty significant deal breakers for me.
Odrankt wrote: Would you take them if they had a good points decrease?
Doubtful.
If they don't fix anything but the price,
The Night Scythe will still be a crappy way to "transport" Infantry,
And the Doom Scythe will still be shooting its big gun at BS4.
Pretty significant deal breakers for me.
Ok an isolated mathematical sense, bs4 to bs3 is a 1/3 increase in DMG output. A corresponding drop in points would statistically make up for it, only you can't buy 4/3 doom scythes.
For the bigger weapons each dice roll becomes more important. No numbers to adjust for the amount of hits needed.
But if you cut the doom scythe price in half I'd gladly field 2 of them I think (would need to look at compared damage outputs first)
Odrankt wrote: Would you take them if they had a good points decrease?
Doubtful.
If they don't fix anything but the price,
The Night Scythe will still be a crappy way to "transport" Infantry,
And the Doom Scythe will still be shooting its big gun at BS4.
Pretty significant deal breakers for me.
Honestly, it depends on the decrease, surely?
Would it, though?
Would it be worth spending points on one of our sub par flyers (a transport that sucks at transporting and a big gun that only hits 50% of the time or worse) instead of something else that actually performs well?
Plus, if other things that are good but hampered by overpricing get balanced (Destroyers, Tomb Blades, etc.) that will be even less incentive to take Night/Doom Scythes.
The ONLY thing I can see making them worth considering is fixing the two issue discussed above.
I don't think the lack of "Transport" keyword is the issue. I think its more of the wording of the Invasion beams and Eternity Gate.
Because we lack the "Transport" keyword we can freely deploy any Infantry unit e.g. Destroyers, Lychguard, Warriors etc without needing to dedicated them to a specific transport. Other armies need to specifically put units into transport vehicles e.g. Space Marines into a Rhino. To move them around the board. If we destroy a Rhino w/ 10 space Marines then that person has to roll 10 dice to see who dies and those that survive are now stranded. We can field 2 N.scythes and even if one goes we can still deploy anything we want that is held in the Tomb World.
It's this part of the ruling that needs fixing or an FaQ " If all friendly Night Scythes and Monoliths are destroyed, any units still on the tomb world are considered to be slain.". If it was changed to let us roll a 4+ for each unit still held in the TW to have them deploy with 3" of our deployment zone edge then that would sort the issue as it would give all our units in the Tomb World a 50% chance of being fielded after our N,Scythes or Monos go down.
That's my opinion anyway. If we get a Transport keyword then we have to decide what unit goes in what but if they change the ruling then we get to frelly Deploy what we want while they are around and get a chance to deploy them in our deployment zone if they are destroyed.
Odrankt wrote: I don't think the lack of "Transport" keyword is the issue. I think its more of the wording of the Invasion beams and Eternity Gate.
Because we lack the "Transport" keyword we can freely deploy any Infantry unit e.g. Destroyers, Lychguard, Warriors etc without needing to dedicated them to a specific transport. Other armies need to specifically put units into transport vehicles e.g. Space Marines into a Rhino. To move them around the board. If we destroy a Rhino w/ 10 space Marines then that person has to roll 10 dice to see who dies and those that survive are now stranded. We can field 2 N.scythes and even if one goes we can still deploy anything we want that is held in the Tomb World.
It's this part of the ruling that needs fixing or an FaQ " If all friendly Night Scythes and Monoliths are destroyed, any units still on the tomb world are considered to be slain.". If it was changed to let us roll a 4+ for each unit still held in the TW to have them deploy with 3" of our deployment zone edge then that would sort the issue as it would give all our units in the Tomb World a 50% chance of being fielded after our N,Scythes or Monos go down.
That's my opinion anyway. If we get a Transport keyword then we have to decide what unit goes in what but if they change the ruling then we get to frelly Deploy what we want while they are around and get a chance to deploy them in our deployment zone if they are destroyed.
Plus the fact that any TW unit can come out of any portal is a pretty great plus.
I think even if we got a stratagem that gave us the ability to port from the tomb world it would strongly help. Like 2 CP to bring in a unit from the tomb world 9” away from an enemy. I enjoy that our transports don’t have the transport word or that we have to dedicate a unit inside. We just need a few more delivery options that utilize the portal concept, maybe like an artifact that allows us to bring in a unit close to the bearer aswell.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't one of the big issues with our ways of deploying from tomb world's restrictive in three ways.
1) no mixed units eg no leader with deployment
2) if the vehicles are all destroyed all tomb world units are dead. ( unlike any other transport)
3) we only have till turn three to get them onto the field otherwise they again are dead ( unlike units inside transports)
Instagram user ftgtevan posted a leak compilation of CA. i can’t link because i just made the account to post this.
75 Point increase on Gauss Pylon
Night Shroud point total is now 220 i’m not sure what it was before.
Sawkfire wrote: Instagram user ftgtevan posted a leak compilation of CA. i can’t link because i just made the account to post this.
75 Point increase on Gauss Pylon
Night Shroud point total is now 220 i’m not sure what it was before.
Changes listed there. With no points changes for Necrons or T'au outside of Forge World, speculation is these are the two codices to follow Chaos Daemons in January. Keep an eye open for a possible announcement either this weekend (Warhammer 40,000 Open Days) or December 9th-10th (Warhammer 40,000 Grand Tournament Heat 2).
Changes listed there. With no points changes for Necrons or T'au outside of Forge World, speculation is these are the two codices to follow Chaos Daemons in January. Keep an eye open for a possible announcement either this weekend (Warhammer 40,000 Open Days) or December 9th-10th (Warhammer 40,000 Grand Tournament Heat 2).
Really? I thought the whole appeal of CA was the changes to existing codexes, and special focus on index armies. Hopefully it's not true then.
Changes listed there. With no points changes for Necrons or T'au outside of Forge World, speculation is these are the two codices to follow Chaos Daemons in January. Keep an eye open for a possible announcement either this weekend (Warhammer 40,000 Open Days) or December 9th-10th (Warhammer 40,000 Grand Tournament Heat 2).
Really? I thought the whole appeal of CA was the changes to existing codexes, and special focus on index armies. Hopefully it's not true then.
The main points of CA are "fix current Codex point costs that are bad" and "give point costs to armies that will wait a while".
If we get no point changes and have no Codex, it's a pretty safe assumption that we will not be waiting long. Which is nice, but means that we're stuck with this til mid January/early February. So... yeah, not playing 40k til then.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm not sure if the Gauss Pylon needed the points rise, what with its random number of shots...
Normally points is about 20 times the PL; so PL24 should be about 480 (it was 475).
I hope they don't increase the PL to 27 then...
How else can we defend against superheavies...
EDIT I - Aswell as relic, damn, I was hoping i could use our heavy support C'tan for some nasty stuff..
EDIT II - Youtube review removed by user, I guess GW told him to remove it.
But one of our stratagems, 2CP - Reroll reanimation protocols of 1s - is kinda underwhelming considering the first line from the stratagem "Use this BEFORE any rolls have been made for A unit"
So 2CP for potentially rerolling 0 1s or if your lucky a jatzy of ones. I was hoping it would be AFTER rolls have been made. Also consider this: we mosly use 10 manna troops units.
That 2cp Stratagem pisses me off. Ad Mech gets a 2pc bring back a fully destroyed unit of destroyers back! No rolling just get back 250 points worth of destroyers.
Pyrothem wrote: That 2cp Stratagem pisses me off. Ad Mech gets a 2pc bring back a fully destroyed unit of destroyers back! No rolling just get back 250 points worth of destroyers.
That Strategem can only be used by a particular FW.
at least we've got a decent warlord trait and relic that can be useful. I'm thinking that the veil of darkness can let a unit within 3'' of the relic bearer teleport out of combat, and thus it will be able to shoot normally in the following shooting.
So while there's a potential for an all in alpha strike type of list, I'm thinking more towards using the veil in a more defensive nature. Have a large unit of warriors or immortals locked in combat? Teleport them out and harass their back lines.
In the youtube video that was taken down, does anyone remember if there was any specific details about how the veil of darkness worked? like after the relic bearer and unit teleported, the unit had to be 3''/6'' away from the relic bearer? or could the relic bearer teleport to one location and the other unit could be as far away from the relic bearer as possible?
flyingnecronmaster wrote: In the youtube video that was taken down, does anyone remember if there was any specific details about how the veil of darkness worked? like after the relic bearer and unit teleported, the unit had to be 3''/6'' away from the relic bearer? or could the relic bearer teleport to one location and the other unit could be as far away from the relic bearer as possible?
Going by the leaks the unit has to be within "8 of the bear ig the Relic to be taken with them.
The Warlord trait is good on a CCB depending on how it affects the quantum shield roll off. If you first reduce the damage and then roll for QS it negates much of the QS effect.
Drewtavian wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't one of the big issues with our ways of deploying from tomb world's restrictive in three ways.
1) no mixed units eg no leader with deployment
2) if the vehicles are all destroyed all tomb world units are dead. ( unlike any other transport)
3) we only have till turn three to get them onto the field otherwise they again are dead ( unlike units inside transports)
For me, the biggest issue is because it lacks the TRANSPORT keyword, anything that gets out of it will be unable to move, unlike normal transport disembarking units. This makes Night Scythes practically useless for CC transport (you have to get out before it moves, so turn 1, Night Scythe moves up. Turn 2, guys get out. Turn 3, guys can move... but unless your opponent is an idiot, the target will have booked it out of there). Even for shooters it's not very good.
Combined with the above points, I'm not sure I see a point in ever taking one.
Now that we know we're not getting any help from C.A, I too probably won't be playing Necrons until we get our own book... but at this rate, I don't have a lot of faith.
So, with Christmas on the way I plan on getting... moarrr Necrons. Question is what should I get...
I a Maynarkh Dynasty so FW Canopteks spring to mind.
Atm, I have:
Spoiler:
- Illuminor Szeras
- Lord with Scythe and Rez Orb
- Cryptek
- Destroyer Lord
- CCB or Tesla Barge with Overlord
- 62 Warriors
- 10 Gauss Immortals
- 21 Scarabs
- 12 Wraiths
- 10 Destroyers
- 2 H. Destroyers
- 1 Night Scythe
- 2 Heat Ray Stalkers
- 5 Deathmarks
- 2 Tesla Barges
- 1 Canoptek Spyder
What would you recommend (I am playing casual and fluffy, but still like winning
Automatically Appended Next Post: Was thinking of any combination of Gauss Pylon, Acanthrites, Tomb Sentinels and Tesseract Ark.
Main opponents are Nids, Deathwath, Aeldari, CSM, Sisters and Catachan. Budget is £225-275.
I feel the pylon is auto-include as my buddies have a Tyranid Bio-Titan, some Knights, some Land Raiders and some Russes.
So, with Christmas on the way I plan on getting... moarrr Necrons. Question is what should I get...
I a Maynarkh Dynasty so FW Canopteks spring to mind.
Atm, I have:
Spoiler:
- Illuminor Szeras
- Lord with Scythe and Rez Orb
- Cryptek
- Destroyer Lord
- CCB or Tesla Barge with Overlord
- 62 Warriors
- 10 Gauss Immortals
- 21 Scarabs
- 12 Wraiths
- 10 Destroyers
- 2 H. Destroyers
- 1 Night Scythe
- 2 Heat Ray Stalkers
- 5 Deathmarks
- 2 Tesla Barges
- 1 Canoptek Spyder
What would you recommend (I am playing casual and fluffy, but still like winning
Automatically Appended Next Post: Was thinking of any combination of Gauss Pylon, Acanthrites, Tomb Sentinels and Tesseract Ark.
Main opponents are Nids, Deathwath, Aeldari, CSM, Sisters and Catachan. Budget is £225-275.
I feel the pylon is auto-include as my buddies have a Tyranid Bio-Titan, some Knights, some Land Raiders and some Russes.
May your Dynasties grow and prosper!
Spoiler:
Ican link you to a website that sells warhammer cheaper then Gdubs if you want more bang for your buck?
Index-wise I would get;
9-12 Tomb Blades,
2 Ghost/DoomsDay Arks (magnatise to use both),
10 Immortals (Tesla).
Forgeworld-wise;
Gauss Pylon (why not I suppose),
2 Tesseract Arks,
2 canoptek Tomb Sentinels (the model for the Sentinel and Stalker are so close ein detail that non-necron players wouldn't know).
You could try eBay or Facebook Wargaming Trading pages to find cheap necron armies if you want to get more that badly.
Interesting replies concerning the Pylon...
Making them 550pts is harsh indeed, but are Tesseract Arks and Tomb Sentinels really going to be enough to take down the heavies?
(DDA are random and do a lot less dmg) Granted, the number of shots on the Pylon is also random, but does it pack a punch...
Dropping it practically allows me 2 TA's and 2 Sentinels tho...
Are we certain that there will be no wargear or stat changes in CA (other than the points I mean)?
Fluff wise I should really get some sentinels indeed, as Toholk invented them :p
Thx for the replies
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sieGermans wrote: I would skip the Pylon given: (a) your opponents and (b) the price increase.
How do you mean, giving my opponents? Aren't those superheavies that are hard to kill?
Also forgot to mention that my opponents also have a Xiphon Pattern Interceptor, a Sicarian Tank, a leviathan dreadnought and a Revenant Titan :/
Pyrothem wrote: That 2cp Stratagem pisses me off. Ad Mech gets a 2pc bring back a fully destroyed unit of destroyers back! No rolling just get back 250 points worth of destroyers.
That Strategem can only be used by a particular FW.
Interesting replies concerning the Pylon...
Making them 550pts is harsh indeed, but are Tesseract Arks and Tomb Sentinels really going to be enough to take down the heavies?
(DDA are random and do a lot less dmg) Granted, the number of shots on the Pylon is also random, but does it pack a punch...
Dropping it practically allows me 2 TA's and 2 Sentinels tho...
Are we certain that there will be no wargear or stat changes in CA (other than the points I mean)?
Fluff wise I should really get some sentinels indeed, as Toholk invented them :p
Thx for the replies
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sieGermans wrote: I would skip the Pylon given: (a) your opponents and (b) the price increase.
How do you mean, giving my opponents? Aren't those superheavies that are hard to kill?
Also forgot to mention that my opponents also have a Xiphon Pattern Interceptor, a Sicarian Tank, a leviathan dreadnought and a Revenant Titan :/
Pyrothem wrote: That 2cp Stratagem pisses me off. Ad Mech gets a 2pc bring back a fully destroyed unit of destroyers back! No rolling just get back 250 points worth of destroyers.
That Strategem can only be used by a particular FW.
Still isn't fair
If your usual point values for games exceed 3k, then toss in the Pylon, sure. But at 550 points, for 2k tournament games/etc., it probably isn’t competitive anymore.
flyingnecronmaster wrote: In the youtube video that was taken down, does anyone remember if there was any specific details about how the veil of darkness worked? like after the relic bearer and unit teleported, the unit had to be 3''/6'' away from the relic bearer? or could the relic bearer teleport to one location and the other unit could be as far away from the relic bearer as possible?
The Veil of Darkness was: "One use only - at the end of the movement phase, pick one friendly <dynasty> infantry unit within 3" of the carrier. The carrier and the unit is removed from the table and deployed anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" away from enemy units and within 6" of the carrier of the Veil of Darkness"
I dont remember if it was WHOLLY within 6" of the carrier or just within 6"
Edit I - Youtube is up again, though without showing the pages from the book, just audio. I linked the time when he talks about the necron traits and stratagems:
Edit II - He doesn't quote the exact wording of the stratagem with rerolling 1s for reanimation protocol, and it seems like its ALL 1s not just for A unit. This gives me a shadow of doubt on my memory, I can't really remember if it was for A unit or just general. Time will tell I guess.
Frontlinegaming released their review, which gives some insight into the wording of the veil of darkness. Basically, it's what you said, but yes, they have to be wholly within 6''.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: The priority should be.
Index:
Tesla immortals
Tomb blades (magnetize weapons)
FW:
Tesseract Ark
Tomb sentinel
We now that Tesseract Arks and Tomb sentinels will be unaffected by chapter approved. So they are the best bet.
How are Acanthrites?
They seem like a shooty version of Wraiths while being more vulnerable too, what with not having an invul save and only protected by -1 To Hit...
In contrast to Wraiths, these could disengage from combat and blast enemies in the face tho.
Has anyone found a good model for Toholk the Blinded by the way?
How are Acanthrites?
They seem like a shooty version of Wraiths while being more vulnerable too, what with not having an invul save and only protected by -1 To Hit...
In contrast to Wraiths, these could disengage from combat and blast enemies in the face tho.
Has anyone found a good model for Toholk the Blinded by the way?
Cheers
So IMO Acanthrites are in a peculiar position. They have 1 less str than wraiths, but str 6 "only" matters against T3, 5, 6 and in the rare case T10, however Acanthrites have ap -3 on their attacks which is huge (they carry Voidblades, however it's not faqed in forgeworld to give +1 attack) so all in all same amount of attacks.
They also have str 7 shooting attacks, with melta effect at ap -4, albeit range 12", though they have m12" with their fly which means fallback and shoot. And defensively wraiths have 3++ which is far stronger than 3+ with -1 to hit and you get roughly 1,5 wraith for 1 acanthrite.
So they will fill completely different roles, Wraiths bog down and acanthrites is very good for vehicle hunting and MEQ/TEQ hunting.
If we compare them to destroyers, or even heavy destroyers which is a bit awkward considering max 3 per unit, unless you field 1 in a full destroyer unit (5+1), then it all comes down to reanimation protocol, and now with the new stratagem, Acanthrites might actually be very viable.
My experience with Acanthrites (I have 9, though only fielded 7 when I field them, never a full squad) they have wrecked havoc and now with the stratagem... mmmmmmhmmm looks great!
How are Acanthrites?
They seem like a shooty version of Wraiths while being more vulnerable too, what with not having an invul save and only protected by -1 To Hit...
In contrast to Wraiths, these could disengage from combat and blast enemies in the face tho.
Has anyone found a good model for Toholk the Blinded by the way?
Cheers
So IMO Acanthrites are in a peculiar position. They have 1 less str than wraiths, but str 6 "only" matters against T3, 5, 6 and in the rare case T10, however Acanthrites have ap -3 on their attacks which is huge (they carry Voidblades, however it's not faqed in forgeworld to give +1 attack) so all in all same amount of attacks.
They also have str 7 shooting attacks, with melta effect at ap -4, albeit range 12", though they have m12" with their fly which means fallback and shoot. And defensively wraiths have 3++ which is far stronger than 3+ with -1 to hit and you get roughly 1,5 wraith for 1 acanthrite.
So they will fill completely different roles, Wraiths bog down and acanthrites is very good for vehicle hunting and MEQ/TEQ hunting.
If we compare them to destroyers, or even heavy destroyers which is a bit awkward considering max 3 per unit, unless you field 1 in a full destroyer unit (5+1), then it all comes down to reanimation protocol, and now with the new stratagem, Acanthrites might actually be very viable.
My experience with Acanthrites (I have 9, though only fielded 7 when I field them, never a full squad) they have wrecked havoc and now with the stratagem... mmmmmmhmmm looks great!
Like the sound of that, and I like focusing on Canoptek models. But doesn't the Canoptek Tomb Sentinel (or two) fill the vehicle hunting role better?
They can deepstrike where they need to be and draw fire for a round maybe.
Was thinking of buying a Tesseract Ark and 2 Sentinels, but could replace the Ark with some Acanthrites...
There's a video on YouTube on converting 3 wraiths to a tomb stalker, (or the cc variant of the two) , it's really nice, it's cheaper, it's plastic and it's fun! (Haven't tried it but plan to)
Interesting replies concerning the Pylon...
Making them 550pts is harsh indeed, but are Tesseract Arks and Tomb Sentinels really going to be enough to take down the heavies?
I had great anti-tank success at Blood&Glory 2017 with the Combination of 1 Tesseract Ark, 1 THGC Triarch Stalker and 2 DDAs.
I even went up against a Pylon and took it down in 2 turns.
My favorite anti-tank is 2 Tesseract Arks, 1 DDA and Triarch Stalker w/ THGC.
I like the Tomb Sentinel but it lacks QS and it's gun is only 12" so you have to be close to use it. If your not charging after you shoot the Exile Cannon then it will be shot up in 1-2 turns. It also around the same points as a Triarch Stalker w/ THGC.
Is it stated that named characters cannot take the Veil of Darkness? I understand that is how it works in general, but the codices themselves state that named characters cannot take relics. Is that verbage anywhere to be found in Chapter Approved?
Drakmord wrote: Is it stated that named characters cannot take the Veil of Darkness? I understand that is how it works in general, but the codices themselves state that named characters cannot take relics. Is that verbage anywhere to be found in Chapter Approved?
The only thing I remember from looking at the page in CA it was "<C'tan shards> cannot take relic or warlord" it didn't say anything about named characters, atleast not under our necron specific page in the CA.
Here's a new idea, 'Cronies,
So apparently this thread is one of the more looked at sources of info for Necron tactics on the internet at the moment.
We've already got a "these are the best units" write up in the OP so people can quickly find what's worth considering (though it could do with some updating).
How about we compile a list of everything that's WRONG with Necron units at the moment?
A basic outline of what makes competitive Necrons dead in the water.
Reasoning being, if we can educate the masses about why no one takes Necrons if they want to win anymore maybe it might get back to GW (if the rumors are true and the codex is coming out soon, it would be too late to try to change it, but at least then they'll understand why no one is buying Necron stuff anymore after the release).
How about we compile a list of everything that's WRONG with Necron units at the moment?
What I find Wrong about us is Reanimation Protocols and Running from Morale.
RP is done well and the concept makes more sense then 7th but the practically of it being clutch or even working is very slim. While our unit is alive we can RP but once we lose the whole unit then we can't RP anymore which (to me) makes RP feel like a tax.We are paying for survivability but our RP doesn't add to our survivability. It just annoys our opponents more and makes them focus fire during their next turn. It does feel like we pay big points for our armies special rules some of the time...
Morale is probably the biggest issue to me. I would love to run max Squad warriors but because Morale means any models that ran away can't get RP then it hinders our RP. We pay 240pts for 20 Warriors, we lose 4 via morale and now we payed 240pts for 16 warriors...
Spoiler:
wish list/ how to fix the issues
I think our units should have special rules that allow us to only go down to 1 infantry model but still allows our opponents to score cards if they "technically" wiped the unit. We should also be immune to Morale. L10 Helps but not for any unit with 14+ models. We are ever living Android's that Phalanx across planets wrecking havoc on our enemy. Not an army of some spinless robits that run away after several warriors have caked it.
Well, fluff-wise, running from Morales is phasing out. We're not dead. Unless irrepairable dmg is done, at which point we self-destruct. Visually the same so leaves opponents guessing. Remember that rule that we lost the game as soon as 75% of our units was gone?
Now that was fluffy, but can only be done if we're made tougher than Death Guard or we'd be losing even more games...
Apologies, but this has been 145 pages of sporadic, ill defined discussion (which is fine!) and doesn’t constitute a cogent, crystallized analysis of the meta with coherent Necron answers-to.
To follow that up with a whine list of units which need buffed, even if everyone agrees, is going to be a bit baseless without a reasonable, holistic treatment of how this buff would fit into the rest of the required revision.
I mean, I’ve been playing in tournaments and experiencing it on the front lines! I recognize our insoluble challenges! But I also see comments that suggest there is very little commonality in our (a) perceptions of what are problems, nor (b) agreement as to the best solution.
To put this another way, consider the design challenges for Necrons:
You have a shooty Army with a history of tough to crack CC units. What was that about cakes and eating them?
You have an army with a history of high lethality and sustained resilience (rather than acute resilience). The only way to balance this is with high point costs, however you have a fluff and history of “innumerable forces” marching “inexorably at their foes.”
The fluff suggests a faceless foe, in a game moving increasingly toward Cult of Personality type heroes.
Necrons are a great Antagonist force in a D&D GMed Campaign, where a GM can mete them out as required to challenge the adventurers... funny that, since that’s exactly how Necrons we’re introduced. But the combination of Mary-sues going on in their fluff and their prior editions of rules is not sustainable without overhaul.
Which means no one is going to be happy, and they will be unhappy for wildly different reasons.
If you only focus on collecting all of the disconnected reasons why people are unhappy, and further subdivide that granularity across specific units/models, the hodge-podge you’ll end up with will not be useful at all: and will have poisoned the community with focus on negativity and resultant inevitable disappointment.
So let’s take an organized contructive approach. Let’s establish a decent list of meta lists and describe the suitable Necron list building strategies to deal with them. Then let’s do a light degree of mathhammering to sense check these solutions. These two steps should reveal where we lack solutions. That kind of information is a gold mine to developers as it gives actionable information.
Godeskian wrote: Who is Reece and why do we care about his opinions?
He runs Frontlinegaming.org, The Las Vegas Open (largest North American 40K tournament), the Bay Area Open tournament, the SoCal Open tournament, and founded the ITC. He is also an official playtester for GW and is a Youtuber/Podcaster/Twitch Streamer.
To be honest, reading the thread I think we have already discussed these drawbacks before, we just need to compile them and append it on the first post.
From top of my mind, and summarized.
- Reanimation Protocols: Fluffy but not scalable. The larger the game, the easier to wipe out squads. Since wiped squads lose it it is very swingy, you either trollface the enemy or he trollfaces you.
Proposed Solution:
Spoiler:
Make it so you reanimate on a 3+ but every failed model applies a -1 modifier to that Reanimate roll. Allow us to leave the last model on the table and roll for that unit, enemies can negate it by moving within 1'' of the last model (remove it then). Models can't be placed more than 3'' from models already on the talbe or from the last model left on the table.
- Tombworld deployment issues: Lack of Transport keyword means the unit can't move. Since you can only bring 1 unit at a time it breaks character synergy. Losing the transported units is too great a liability.
Proposed Solution:
Spoiler:
Make it so one character can be deployed with any unit deployed from Tombworld. Give every model able to teleport units onto the table the Transport keyword. Leave losing all tombwolrd units if you lose all transports, but make them cheaper, maybe add an option for emergency teleport that is a paid upgrade the allows you to drop the unit where the transport is destroyed.
- Lack of realiable weapon options: Our biggest guns are very swingy and pay too much premium for Living metal. We also lack weapon diversity for medium vehicles, we are either grat vs hordes (tesla), great vs elite infantry (Gauss). Lack of a Melta/Missile Launcher equivalent.
Proposed Solution:
Spoiler:
Make truly big guns 2d3 instead of 1d6, with extra hits for every 5 models in targeted units. Bring back some shooting weapon options for crypteks and make particle weapons (particle beamers) similar to Melta to plug that hole with Tomb Blades, Spiders and Wraiths.
- Weird lack of synergy buffs from characters: Overlord MWBD affects only a sinlge unit at a time. Lord's bonus is crap with Ld10 already. Cryptek is great, but given the reanimation protocol issues it just amplifies the problem: Lose the unit and your cryptek's investment is null.
Proposed Solution:
Spoiler:
Make overlords be able to buff more units the more lords you have, make lords cheaper, make lords buff overlord's buffs or something like that. Something fluffy and unique to Necrons given their noble caste structure. Overlords get a secondary aura ability and they can make one MWBD per lord taken. Lords have an offensive aura ability, so if you take them alone they are kind of OK but are great if you take one Overlord and a bunch of lords.
If these issues are all properly addressed and balanced carefully, Necrons can quickly become viable and stable as an army.
Reanimation Protocols:
The issue with this ability is that it is too reliable to be costed cheaply. At a 1/3 chance of standing up, combined with all other stats, a Warrior is, point for point, waaaay better than most other troop choices. To allow for any buffs to unit stats or reductions in point costs, RP needs to become more unreliable.
Tombworld Deployment:
There are two issues here: one is the mechanic itself, which is very Brittle (like a hard candy shell: gives good initial benefits but which can easily crumble), and the second are the transports which use it.
The mechanic has pros/cons:
Pro: anything can deploy from any of them, which means you can bring the right Tool to bear at the right location.
Pro: units are totally immune unless every possible “transport” is destroyed.
Con: units are totally deleted upon destruction of all eligible transports, rather than the usual roll-for-models system.
On balance, this makes the mechanic very contingent on the resilience of transport options. Ideally you would have costly resilient ones and cheap ‘risky’ ones. However, on its own, the mechanic has good internal balance, though requires monitoring to avoid becoming too powerful.
The transports are terrible. You rightly point out the crippling lack of transport keyword, which makes already slow [transportable] cc options even slower. More importantly, we do not have an expensive “safe” option. I think some sort of 2 point stratagem could solve this.
Weapon Options:
Our shooting is pretty excellent, with a minor gap for high VoF shooting with decent AP. This doesn’t necessarily hinder us as our shooting has strength in other areas. All told, we are pretty spoiled when it comes to gun options.
Character Buffs:
I suspect this is an Index vs. Codex issue. Overall there are very few Necron buffs that interact with anything beyond Lychguard/Immortals/Warriors. Definitely this could be expanded upon, probably to include rerolls/strength/AP/ignore-cover/etc.
My view of our current challenges stem mainly from:
The cost of our units. They are (correctly) super expensive due to a type of resilience that either never matters (because they don’t die) or doesn’t work (entire unit wiped).
And, the type of meta. WH40k 8ed suffers from an Alpha Strike problem. This issue is actually made worse by abilities which get WORSE the more damage/casualties have been suffered: such as RP. I expect there’s a niche role here that armies could occupy by actively harming armies which go for Alpha strikes (rather than just weathering them). Quantum Shielding is a good example. The AdMech mechanic of causing mortal wounds to shooting units against which they successfully make an invuln save. In this context, things like RP become more managea, both by fitting into the design philosophy and by feeding off the fewer casualties taken.
Proposed Solutions:
Nerf RP to a 6 up.
Reduce point costs on RP models by 33%.
Give transports <Transport>.
Reduce toughness on Nightscythes to 5, provide QS, and reduce cost to 140.
Increase toughness on Monolith to 9.
Introduce stratagem for 2cp to instantly teleport a tombworld deployed model to within 3” of your Warlord. This unit may not move or advance this turn.
Introduce additional generic shooting and defensive bubble buffs to our named characters.
Exotic options include:
Stratagems which inflict mortal wounds for successful saves (in particular Quantum Shielding saves).
Stratagems which inflict morale saves on a unit within 12” of a Necron unit which undergoes Reanimation Protocols, at -1 LD for each unit which stands up.
The RP, as many have pointed out, is a very either-or mechanic. It is at its very strongest when you are almost wiped out.
Example: 19 of 20 warriors are shot dead. RP now gives you 6-7 free warriors, or 9-10 with a cryptek.
However with only 1 warrior left you are almost near the very weakest RP situation: unit wiped.
This property, that RP gets stronger the more units that die, yet suddenly it gets worthless once wiped, is the problem that GW should solve. In my opinion. In 7th it was boring but very stable. In 8th its fun but very unstable. And _does_ _not_ _scale_. ie higher points means easier to wipe a unit.
The transport is much the same thing. If the Nightscythe survives with 1W, it is now able to deliver its lethal payload. If that last W was lost, the payload is suddenly gone. That too is a very much knife-edge either-or ability. That also scales poorly.
Just soften those knige edges somehow.
Im not sure 6+ RP is the right medicine. I wish that the 8th RP should be able to function meaningfully the way it does.
"2CP roill RP for a wiped unit" or "Res. orb roll RP for a wiped unit" would be nice. It means its not critical for the enemy to wipe the unit any more. It may still come back.
Giving teleported units normal move, as with transport, would that not be slightly OP? You can now bring full units into the fray, while "mechanical" transports have to rely on troop limits. And we can bring any infantry unit, while other codexes' transports have limited options.
I agree with Quantum shielding to Night Scythe, but why not also the Monolith instead of T9?
Also perhaps 2CP deploy a unit from the tomb world anywhere on the battlefield outside 9" of the enemy. The warlord might very well be dead turn 3. Or within 3" of any HQ choice.
And some way to get more CP. Perhaps +1 CP for any overlord or lord. Fluffwise these beings are master calculators after all. At least if you resort to CPs to solve some of the necron challenges.
Im not sure 6+ RP is the right medicine. I wish that the 8th RP should be able to function meaningfully the way it does.
"2CP roill RP for a wiped unit" or "Res. orb roll RP for a wiped unit" would be nice. It means its not critical for the enemy to wipe the unit any more. It may still come back.
This I dig, back in DoW - Dark Crusade (I know, not tabletop, but that game got me into 40K and Necrons ^^), Rez orb was used to partially resurrect dead units. Would then at least be appriopriately priced at its 35pt for a single use item
"Res. orb roll RP for a wiped unit" would be nice. It means its not critical for the enemy to wipe the unit any more. It may still come back.
This.
Let the res orb keep its 'one use only' and replace its current ability to "roll for a wiped out unit". And depending on how great (or bad) this effect would be, you can increase/decrease its pts cost.
Also remove its limit of infantry models to any model with reanimation protocol (to include Tomb blades).
Like the sound of that, and I like focusing on Canoptek models. But doesn't the Canoptek Tomb Sentinel (or two) fill the vehicle hunting role better?
They can deepstrike where they need to be and draw fire for a round maybe.
Was thinking of buying a Tesseract Ark and 2 Sentinels, but could replace the Ark with some Acanthrites...
Maynarkh for the win :p
Cheers
My two tomb sentinels have done Great work in all of my matches, I love em, also the model is fantastic.
Consider the following:
Spoiler:
Tomb Sentinel
+Higher T, thou no -1 to hit
+Deepstrike
+Living metal
+Average 3.5 shots from exile cannon, hitting 1.75, wounding almost everything on 3+, flat 3dmg
+Can be equiped with gloom prism for 5pts for some potential anti-psychic
+Good in melee, not great but not bad
Acanthrite
+has -1 to hit in shooting phase
+Fly, can fall back and shoot with its melta, meaning you might be very well in melta range
+Great in melee, 3A per fly at ap -3, shredding MEQ/TEQ +Has the canoptek keyword, meaning our new lovely stratagem works on them (they can be up to 9 in a squad)
+assault weapon, though short range, but high mobility and high dmg output, even higher if you get within melta range
torblind wrote: The RP, as many have pointed out, is a very either-or mechanic. It is at its very strongest when you are almost wiped out.
Example: 19 of 20 warriors are shot dead. RP now gives you 6-7 free warriors, or 9-10 with a cryptek.
However with only 1 warrior left you are almost near the very weakest RP situation: unit wiped.
This property, that RP gets stronger the more units that die, yet suddenly it gets worthless once wiped, is the problem that GW should solve. In my opinion. In 7th it was boring but very stable. In 8th its fun but very unstable. And _does_ _not_ _scale_. ie higher points means easier to wipe a unit.
The transport is much the same thing. If the Nightscythe survives with 1W, it is now able to deliver its lethal payload. If that last W was lost, the payload is suddenly gone. That too is a very much knife-edge either-or ability. That also scales poorly.
Just soften those knige edges somehow.
Im not sure 6+ RP is the right medicine. I wish that the 8th RP should be able to function meaningfully the way it does.
"2CP roill RP for a wiped unit" or "Res. orb roll RP for a wiped unit" would be nice. It means its not critical for the enemy to wipe the unit any more. It may still come back.
Giving teleported units normal move, as with transport, would that not be slightly OP? You can now bring full units into the fray, while "mechanical" transports have to rely on troop limits. And we can bring any infantry unit, while other codexes' transports have limited options.
I agree with Quantum shielding to Night Scythe, but why not also the Monolith instead of T9?
Also perhaps 2CP deploy a unit from the tomb world anywhere on the battlefield outside 9" of the enemy. The warlord might very well be dead turn 3. Or within 3" of any HQ choice.
And some way to get more CP. Perhaps +1 CP for any overlord or lord. Fluffwise these beings are master calculators after all. At least if you resort to CPs to solve some of the necron challenges.
I like your RP solution. Quite a bit, actually. High cost for decent gain.
Re: Transports getting <Transport>, possibly it’s too good, though I don’t think so. Remember that not everything can get placed in teleport reserve, and moreover they only teleport in at the start of movement phase; so the transport will have sat there for whole turn. If it’s the vulnerable, cheap night Scythe, with my recommended 5 toughness, that’s not a sure thing!
Re: QS on the Monolith, I don’t think combining high wound count with a mechanic that inhibits high Damage weaponry is a healthy combination for the game.
I think 2CP=Deepstrike might be too good, and could overtune Portals by overly mitigating their drawback. Indeed, it could very well lead to folks eschewing any actual teleporting from the transports and just using the Stratagem. Which feels... bad?
Let's not worry about "how to fix" the issues. There's literally nothing any of us can do about that.
Let's just focus on what's wrong, so people are aware (and if GW stumbles across it, they can figure out how to address those concerns themselves)
Tomb Sentinel
+Higher T, thou no -1 to hit
+Deepstrike
+Living metal
+Average 3.5 shots from exile cannon, hitting 1.75, wounding almost everything on 3+, flat 3dmg
+Can be equiped with gloom prism for 5pts for some potential anti-psychic
+Good in melee, not great but not bad
Acanthrite
+has -1 to hit in shooting phase
+Fly, can fall back and shoot with its melta, meaning you might be very well in melta range
+Great in melee, 3A per fly at ap -3, shredding MEQ/TEQ +Has the canoptek keyword, meaning our new lovely stratagem works on them (they can be up to 9 in a squad)
+assault weapon, though short range, but high mobility and high dmg output, even higher if you get within melta range
This doesn't help me choose :p
The stratagem would help me lean to the acanthrites, but Deep Strike straight into short range is quite good.
granted they will prob die next turn, but still, flying acanthrites towards your targets takes time and they have no ++ to help them.
Whichever I'd use would be used alongside Wraiths, Scarabs, Destroyers and Warriors, so I need it as a kind of anti-tank.
Not sure how effective the flies will be in AT (and while rez is ok, we usually don't have CP's to spare).
I get 3 acanthrites for 1 Sentinel..
that's Assault 3 S7 AP-4 D6 melta against Heavy D6 S10 AP-4 3 damage.
T7 versus T5 matters against plasma and heavy bolters and such, but -1 to hit helps against the big shots.
DaKhriS wrote: This doesn't help me choose :p
The stratagem would help me lean to the acanthrites, but Deep Strike straight into short range is quite good.
granted they will prob die next turn, but still, flying acanthrites towards your targets takes time and they have no ++ to help them.
Whichever I'd use would be used alongside Wraiths, Scarabs, Destroyers and Warriors, so I need it as a kind of anti-tank.
Not sure how effective the flies will be in AT (and while rez is ok, we usually don't have CP's to spare).
I get 3 acanthrites for 1 Sentinel..
that's Assault 3 S7 AP-4 D6 melta against Heavy D6 S10 AP-4 3 damage.
T7 versus T5 matters against plasma and heavy bolters and such, but -1 to hit helps against the big shots.
This is a hard choice...
Yea I get your feeling, and it is a hard choice.
I like them both, but recently the sentinel has been an almost autoinclude in my army, it such a fantastic and goodlooking model and the deepstrike option with the gloom prism is just fantastic, even though it kinda lacks survivability.
I always deepstrike it, footslogging it would be terrible - deepstriking it gives you many options, waiting a couple of turns, see the enemies movement etc.
And if you want to use the acanthrites i would recommend atleast a squad of 5 (or 2x3), now with our new stratagem, that way if 2 or more die, you can try and res them.
If you go for 3 acanthrites, you need to hide them so they dont die early, your opponents will want to kill them before they get close obviously.
I would say the sentinel is more of a support antitank than an actuall antitank while the acanthrites fill the roll of antitank more - though I use them both as an addition to any other antitank I might have, like a support role for maybe a DDA or TA.
The sentinels have atleast no deteriorating profile! oh and also, charge with them!
One thing to consider with the Acanthrites is the damage of the melta, its D6, given you can reroll the damage with a CP, they can overall deal more damage than the sentinel.
All in all, it comes down to your own playstyle and which model you prefer most, which is most estheticly pleasing.
You could always proxy them and try them in a couple of games? that way you get a more accurate profile of which ever might fit you the most!
On a side note, how do you all equip your Wraiths?
I have 12 of them tot probably use in 2x6.
The whip coils are pretty meh, unless fighting a CC army, to give to 1 of 2 of the 6 who then get kill removed first when in CC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Particle caster is a S6 pistol to shoot pointblank in CC.
But the Beamer is better at melting MEQ/TEQ but as Wraiths are supposed to be in CC...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Forgot that Transbeamers would be nice for surprise mortal wounds top...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd rather use those Canoptek rez stratagem for my Wraiths tot make them even harder to wipe. The Sentinel would however he quite the fire magnet, as a surprise Carnifex
I find sentinels average at best, quite easy to kill, 12" heavy d6 hitting on 4's all the time isnt as efficient as a TA, and its much, much stronger than one.
Wraiths I run naked, they dont do enough damage to warrant more shooting damage and are very expensive as it is, but they are very hard to kill, so as cheap as possible to fill their intended role.
In regards to what is broken I find it is the obvious, what has been said:
RP is broke, (seriously, rolling in each players phase is a very quick and easy fix, makes it significantly more powerful without changing the mechanic at all)
We have a very slow army, and our transports rules are broken, meaning half the units are shelved until we get mobility options that work.
We are a very expensive army, which is fine if RP worked properly, but it doesn't so we end up paying too much for nothing. Fix RP, and i feel even then a points decrease would be appreciated.
Klowny wrote: I find sentinels average at best, quite easy to kill, 12" heavy d6 hitting on 4's all the time isnt as efficient as a TA, and its much, much stronger than one.
Yea the TA is superior, QS 3+/5++ and regen + its "roll 1 additional dice when charge and remove the highest roll", also great weaponry, they should add it to the ark box, full plastic!
RP is broke, (seriously, rolling in each players phase is a very quick and easy fix, makes it significantly more powerful without changing the mechanic at all)
That wouldn't fix the biggest issue with RP, considering a fully wiped out unit, that problem would still adhere.
It would however work very well with living metal.
What about 3rd editions RP? without the phase out and "double str kills it" etc, if an entire unit is wiped out just roll in the beginning of your turn on a 4+, it stands up where last model died (rougly), otherwise its removed?
Maybe that would be wiffy anyway, idk, just a thought.
I haven't been active in the 40K scene in a few months (shortly after 8th dropped). Anything new come up for Necrons rules-wise? Any recent FAQ or addendum change things for us? I was originally going to sit out until our codex came out, but I want to participate in some events at my local shop, so I figure I better get reacquainted with our latest strategies.
Can someone give me a quick rundown of generally what units we've deemed as not very useful and the ones that are must-haves?
"Roll a dice for each model in a unit that died. On a 5+ they stand up again.
Additionally, when the last model in a unit dies, instead of removing it from the board, lay it down at that position. At the start of your next turn, roll a Reanimation roll for the model. If you fail the roll, the model is removed from play as normal. If you pass the roll, you may place that model within 1" of the point where it died, more than 3" from enemy models. You may then roll Reanimation for the unit as normal."
This way, killing a unit is still a way to stop it, but for the Necron player, there's still a chance that the unit can come back if it gets focus fired. Especially useful for small units like Tomb Blades, Destroyers, or Praetorians.
I haven't been active in the 40K scene in a few months (shortly after 8th dropped). Anything new come up for Necrons rules-wise? Any recent FAQ or addendum change things for us? I was originally going to sit out until our codex came out, but I want to participate in some events at my local shop, so I figure I better get reacquainted with our latest strategies.
Can someone give me a quick rundown of generally what units we've deemed as not very useful and the ones that are must-haves?
You could say that the problem is that too little has happened, the other codices and indeces have sped ahead while we remained, an already weak position getting even weaker.
First post of thread has unit review
Fixing the current RP is tricky since it scales with game point size. Although if they balance it for 1500 - 2000 point games it should work for most situations.
Let's analyse why it doesn't work:
- Unit gets wiped = no RP, forces you to take big units.
- Easy to wipe some units (Warriors, Immortals not in cover, Heavy Destroyers)
When does it work?
- With big tough units (Lychguard, Praetorians, Destroyers, Tomb blades)(The problems these units have doesn't have as much to do with RP as other factors)
So what units are in most need of buffed RP?
- Warriors
- Immortals
- Heavy Destroyers
How can this be fixed?
- Stratagem that allows RP after wipe for Warriors and Immortals only.
- Buff Heavy Destroyers (and Destroyers) to 2+ save. Also helps Destroyer Lord.
How about Dynasty traits?
- -1 to hit will help a lot.
- 6+ fnp will help and will also give a nice buff to vehicles.
- Always in cover would give a nice buff to warriors and Immortals not in cover. Will also make all other units that are hard to get in cover tougher (Tomb blades, Lychguard, vehicles)
Automatically Appended Next Post: These fixes together with lower prices, fixed transports and more firepower would help tremendously.
The biggest problem remaining will be low amount of CP and no cheap troops to use as screens.
If we just could have another troop choice below warriors costing 6-7 points.
I haven't been active in the 40K scene in a few months (shortly after 8th dropped). Anything new come up for Necrons rules-wise? Any recent FAQ or addendum change things for us? I was originally going to sit out until our codex came out, but I want to participate in some events at my local shop, so I figure I better get reacquainted with our latest strategies.
Can someone give me a quick rundown of generally what units we've deemed as not very useful and the ones that are must-haves?
You could say that the problem is that too little has happened, the other codices and indeces have sped ahead while we remained, an already weak position getting even weaker.
First post of thread has unit review
Bummer. The reason I took a break was because I felt we were a bit too vulnerable and wanted to wait for our codex. I was hoping that if anything, other factions' codices would balance them a bit more, but from what I've heard, it's only helped them.
I haven't been active in the 40K scene in a few months (shortly after 8th dropped). Anything new come up for Necrons rules-wise? Any recent FAQ or addendum change things for us? I was originally going to sit out until our codex came out, but I want to participate in some events at my local shop, so I figure I better get reacquainted with our latest strategies.
Can someone give me a quick rundown of generally what units we've deemed as not very useful and the ones that are must-haves?
You could say that the problem is that too little has happened, the other codices and indeces have sped ahead while we remained, an already weak position getting even weaker.
First post of thread has unit review
Bummer. The reason I took a break was because I felt we were a bit too vulnerable and wanted to wait for our codex. I was hoping that if anything, other factions' codices would balance them a bit more, but from what I've heard, it's only helped them.
When 8th came out, I was singing praises because everything we got was either a sidegrade or a straight upgrade from 7th edition. However, we went up, but other armies went up more, leaving us behind.
Looks like we should get a book Jan or Feb, though, so it's not too long a wait.
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Can someone give me a quick rundown of generally what units we've deemed as not very useful and the ones that are must-haves?
Almost always taken =
• Tesla Immortals buffed with MWBD (probably from an Overlord)
• Scarabs
• Tesseract Arks
• Big Pylon (less so, now)
Pretty good =
• Gauss Tomb Blades
• Wraiths
• Named C'tan
• Triarch Stalkers
• Doomsday Arks
Has its uses =
• Warriors
• Annihilation Barges
• Praetorians
SHOULD be good, but something wrong =
• Destroyers
• Flayed Ones
• Deathmarks
Everything else is pretty rarely if ever considered because they don't really perform.
Requizen wrote: Yeah if it was something like this I'd be happy:
"Roll a dice for each model in a unit that died. On a 5+ they stand up again.
I don't want our exclusive mechanic to become a FnP, too much of those already... Of do you only intend this after a wipe and in addition tot the normal RP?
Bummer. The reason I took a break was because I felt we were a bit too vulnerable and wanted to wait for our codex. I was hoping that if anything, other factions' codices would balance them a bit more, but from what I've heard, it's only helped them.
It seems their strategy has been to dump down the powerful codices from 7th, and then use codices to adjust them back up. Just sucks to be last codex up.
Requizen wrote: Yeah if it was something like this I'd be happy:
"Roll a dice for each model in a unit that died. On a 5+ they stand up again.
I don't want our exclusive mechanic to become a FnP, too much of those already... Of do you only intend this after a wipe and in addition tot the normal RP?
The problem with "fixing" Reanimation Protocols is what do GW need to fix?
1.Do they move it to another phase to make it work better?
2.Do they allow all RP units to never go below 1 model to prevent RP from never working?
3.Do they make RP harder for units that got wiped e.g. a unit of 10 warriors is wiped and instead of never coming back they now RP on 6+ only and can be buffed to a 5+ via Cryptek.
4. Do they let us RP wiped units but set up the unit within ,3" of our table edge?
5. Do they give us 7th edit. RP back and just nake it a FnP but with current rules e.g. models that die turn 1 and still come back in other turns until the unit is wiped.
RP is probably at it's best atm in terms of how the rule for it works in that we can always bring models back in later turns and everything comes back with Full wounds. The issue is the wording, what happens to expensive wiped units and how it affects our models interms of points and playability.
Fixing repair protocols is tricky, without some way to bypass it, necrons would be unkillable, but the current way it's handled it's trivial to bypass on units that matter. Frankly GW has painted themselves in a corner, and I don't think anyone is going to be happy with how it's fixed.
Instead I think we are going to see a stratagem that lets you blow CP to make RP rolls for a unit that gets wiped out. that way necrons can save a valuable unit, but it won't make them unkillable since a stratagem can only be used once per phase and there is a limited number of times it can be used. It will cost 3 CP since the reroll ones stratagem cost 2 CP. So once or twice a battle we can basically ignore an opponent's concentrated fire.
That will allow us to limp along with the current RP rules, but doesn't address our other issues. QoL issues like the range on cryptek auras (which will probably be fixed), and how MWBD blows compared command auras (which will probably not be fixed). However if they get the points adjustment correct I can live with those issues as being overcost is one of our main issues.
Please knock off the proposed rules discussion in the tactics thread.
While I agree with what you are trying to do, leave the modding to the mods. Report the posts and leave it at that. Red Text of "OBEY" is their gig, not ours.
skoffs wrote: It was more so it would be seen this time.
(Had already mentioned it twice before but apparently it hadn't been noticed)
I think a lot of these proposed fixes are hypotheticals to illustrate the problem currently. They aren’t proposed rules, per se, but talking points around the issue.
SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote: Can someone give me a quick rundown of generally what units we've deemed as not very useful and the ones that are must-haves?
Spoiler:
Almost always taken =
• Tesla Immortals buffed with MWBD (probably from an Overlord)
• Scarabs
• Tesseract Arks
• Big Pylon (less so, now)
Pretty good =
• Gauss Tomb Blades
• Wraiths
• Named C'tan
• Triarch Stalkers
• Doomsday Arks
Has its uses =
• Warriors
• Annihilation Barges
• Praetorians
SHOULD be good, but something wrong =
• Destroyers
• Flayed Ones
• Deathmarks
Everything else is pretty rarely if ever considered because they don't really perform.
What I try to always include:
Tesla Immortals Scarabs Tomb blades - Both Gauss and Tesla are good.
Deathmarks - Used to harass and grab objectives.
CCB - My prefered HQ because of the large aura and it can actually do something compared to the normal OL.
(TA - Don't own any, but I guess they would be here.)
(Tomb Sentinel - Seems to be obe of Necrons best units.)
After I have taken the above mentioned units I also include some of the following:
Wraiths - Good to lock up enemy vehicles and units. Too bad the stratagem is 2CP, if it was 1CP I would always include them.
Destroyers - Large unit incl. 1 heavy. Their mobility and move and fire is the key. Combine this with a CCB with res orb and you are good to go.
Stalkers - With gauss. Perhaps one with heat ray if you push it forward.
Heavy destroyers - If buffed by a OL and placed in cover where not many units can see them they are a solid choice. Reliable shooting... if you manage to wound.
Deceiver - The redeploy is strong and combine this with the Veil gives you a mobile army.
DDAs - Amazing at times and other times they do nothing. The reason why I usually take one is that they are often a priority target for your opponent and can take a lot of damage. Would I use Tomb sentinels or TAs I would leave out the DDA.
What I don't take (anymore):
Cryptek - If I field a battalion I might include a Cryptek, but another OL might be the best bet.
Annihilation barge - I would really like for these to come down in price because I believe they can be viable thanks to 12" move, fly and QS.
Praetorians - Also a unit I would really like to use. 12" move would help and so would a Dynasty keyword. 10 Praetorians accompanied by a CCB with res orb would be nice, but expensive.
Nightbringer - Too slow. In an expensive army there are better choices.
Warriors - Nope
Special characters - Haven't really used them so I have no opinion on these
Everything else - Nope
I would be ok with the price of Destroyers, Praets, Lychguard, etc if they reduced all incoming damage by half. Too expensive for multiwound models considering everything has D3 or D6 damage readily available.
Requizen wrote: I would be ok with the price of Destroyers, Praets, Lychguard, etc if they reduced all incoming damage by half. Too expensive for multiwound models considering everything has D3 or D6 damage readily available.
Requizen wrote: I would be ok with the price of Destroyers, Praets, Lychguard, etc if they reduced all incoming damage by half. Too expensive for multiwound models considering everything has D3 or D6 damage readily available.
What if Destroyers were 2+ or had 5 wounds
Their weapons make them kinda weak imo. Str 5 ap-3, if they had like +1 to wound or so, then maybe.
Dont take this the wrong way, they are great against MEQs n TEQs, but its awkward.
From the old age they lost 1 str and 1 attack on their weapons and gauss rule aswell.
I will admit though - i tried 6 destroyers with destroyer lord, overlord and a cryptek (lol yea i know, a lot of pts sink) they managed to survive bombartment from 2 basilisks and 1 knight for 2 turns before they destroyed the knight and then went basilisk hunting (they recovered the game for me).
Do they need to move that fast though? At first they should probably stay 24" away from their targets, and survive incoming fire. Late game they perhaps move up to grab objectives and hunt down things. Then they are less things shooting at them so perhaps not so dependent on crypteks invulsave
Well I'll put mine in 2 squads of 5+1, combined with a Tomb Sentinel as fire magnet and some Acanthrites to go up the board backed by Wraiths, so the enemy should have more urgent targets than the destroyers
Destroyers are just far too expensive for me to justify the price, right now.
I had been hoping for a price adjustment in C.A, but now it looks like I'll have to wait a few months longer until the codex comes out (hopefully).
But even then I don't know how likely I will be to include them anymore.
They're probably still going to end up too pricey a unit to just place and forget without support, like you might with Scarabs or even Tomb Blades. So then you end up having to invest SO MUCH in them, HQ-wise, to get them to perform at optimum efficiency (a D.Lord for wounding rerolls, an Overlord for MWBD, a Cryptek for 4+++).
It just... doesn't seem worth it, you know?
Our local meta is highly competitive, yet it is surprising one of the players had very peculiar success with very simple army:
Spoiler:
Nemesor
Anrakyr
Illuminor
Orikan
Stalker with Heat Ray
20 warriors
20 warriors
10 immortals w/ Tesla
10 immortals w/ Tesla
8 scarabs
8 scarabs
5 scarabs
1997 pts total
I will face him on Sunday with Death Guard.
Initialy I wasn't really anticipating this game as something special, but after his triumph over GK (with 3 storm ravens!) and IG armies I am kind of anxious.
Mathematicaly I can't lose, but it will be quite a gamble. I will have to deal with scarabs fast enough to have enough time killing warriors and immortals, and I don't have many long range options to safely and reliably kill 20 warriors in cover and under orikan's invulnerable save, and short range crossfire might favor necrons a little bit.
He beat 3 stormravens and IG with that list? WTF?!
I'm sorry, I know first hand what a GMDK and a single stormraven can do to infantry, and the amount of dakka IG can put out.
The other players must have played quite badly to lose to that :/
It literally has no anti tank, its okay at dealing with infantry, but and fast CC army would absolutely wreck it.
I've played DG with my crons, the only thing I was really scared about was Morty. If you have him you should take this list down very, very quickly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another question.
Now that we can reliably get immortals into RF range T1, hitting on 2+, with potentially a 2+ armour save in cover, how good do Gauss immortals look to you guys now. Im starting to really like the idea of them....
A cryptek with the veil zapping up immortals in some cover near you? Definitely not unheard of. Could even have deathmarks around and ready to to for threat of extra added pressure.
Now that we can reliably get immortals into RF range T1, hitting on 2+, with potentially a 2+ armour save in cover, how good do Gauss immortals look to you guys now. Im starting to really like the idea of them....
We could always get Immortals in RF range with the Deceiver as you get to teleport at least 1 unit plus himself 9" away from enemy models and can't charge. I suppose the VoD reliablity to let the Immos plus HQ Deepstrike compared to the D3 chance of the Deceiver is a bit better. However, getting to move 2 units via the D3 works out a bit better then the VoD if you are not charging with those units.
Does anyone know if VoD teleports the bearer and Infantry unit or Bearer and <Dynasty> unit excluding Vehicles?
I'm still salty about Obyron's Veil being wholely dependant on Zahndrekh.
Anyway,
While a Cryptek would be good if multiple units are going to be moving up (eg. Veiled Immortals + G.I'd D3 Immortals), if ONLY taking a single unit up (just Veiled guys) I don't know if that'd be the best HQ for the job.
I'd be leaning more towards an Overlord so they'd get MWBD plus have some CC backup.
Only issue there is they'd probably be a kamikaze squad.
It might be expensive, but if you can fit the Deceiver in with the Veil bearer, that might end up being the best solution (then at least you'd have a lot of firepower to inflict enough damage with multiple threats in their face so you'd be less likely to lose the upper hand with what might just end up being a minor distraction to your opponent).
Welp, give it to Zahndrekh and we have ourselves a strike force (10 Gauss Immortals with him, 10 Scythe Lychguard/15+ Flayed Ones with Obyron).
If that's really doable, I'd be willing to overlook what they did to Oby in the index.
(Can we get the exact wording on the part that says who can and can't take it? Under a spoiler, of course, so gw don't wet themselves)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Odrankt wrote: Well that mean Anrakyr with a unit of Lychguard will wreck havoc!
It's still a 9" charge, and they'd be by themselves in the middle of hostile territory. Too risky for my blood.
At least with Obyron you get to place 6" away from Zahndrekh, making it only 3" away from the enemy (unless they errata'd that and we don't know about it yet).
It's still a 9" charge, and they'd be by themselves in the middle of hostile territory. Too risky for my blood.
At least with Obyron you get to place 6" away from Zahndrekh, making it only 3" away from the enemy (unless they errata'd that and we don't know about it yet).
I usually get my 9" charges when I use a Tomb Sentinel, Flayed Ones or Scarabs and if worst comes to it I just CP the lower dice if I roll a 5-6 on the other one. Maybe a mixture of the Deceivers G.I to deploy Anrakyr then use the VoD from Zahndrekh to go near Anrakyr for +1 A and then Ghostwalk Oby into position? Might cost a lot of points (at the moment) but it sounds like a good CC core.
I have a question that's a little of topic for everybody. Has anyone used the Deceives G.I to Re-deploy Canoptek Acanthrites to make full use of their cutting beam? 9 S7 -4 D6 Melta sounds like quite the punch. And if backed via Cryptek you can RP on a 4+ by using 2 CPs.
Anyone else interested/shocked by this combo that I completely ignored throughout 8th edition.
AFAIK, every codex so far has restricted Relics to non-Named Characters. Codex Approved may have overlooked this restriction, but I would not by any means expect this to be a "thing" that sticks around.
What would be everyones recommendation in a 5k apoc game to taking out a heirophant? I havent played my necrons since 6th edition, and I havent played new nids in 8th at all. Trying to jump back in and I already know I will be facing this, but thats all I know. Was thinking pylons, but is there other good options?
Requizen wrote: AFAIK, every codex so far has restricted Relics to non-Named Characters. Codex Approved may have overlooked this restriction, but I would not by any means expect this to be a "thing" that sticks around.
I agree on this, they always stated that named characters already have fancy wargear and so cannot take relics. (Only one relic can be taken by the army anyway, unless shelling out CPs)
Even then, putting the Veil on an Overlord or Cryptek isn't bad by any means. Aside from the obvious shenanigans of Veil + Zahndrekh + Obyron + Melee unit, it's still a great item.
Now, with Deceiver, Zahndrekh/Obyron, and Veil, we can easily get most of our army in midfield. One of our Troops biggest weaknesses was speed - once Warriors and Gauss Immortals are up the board they're not terrible. Still doesn't make us a top army, but lets us play the Objective game much easier than it did previously and once Gauss is in Rapid Fire range, it's pretty solid.
Well, if anyone getting the book can come back here and confirm the exact wording for us regarding who is and isn't allowed relics we would be extremely grateful.
Looks like Sau have gotten even stronger with their combo ports...
Admittedly now im kind of interested in the shenanigans the world killer can get into though.
Sure you wont be able to pre T1 deciever place a bunch of immortals or other stuff with assault weapons and then charge them in that turn 1. But since they go before the first turn that means they'll be able to move in very close and then turn 2 they'll probably be within WK's 12" field allowing you to spray and run in assuming they survived and then continue.
----
Also even if we have to restrict that cloak to a non named, this means you could always overlord it and TP the overlord and one of your leaders like Nemesor instead if you really wanted to get them into melee that turn. Worse case scenario Nemesor and overlord can MWBD eachother since both are infantry giving you a little bit of a buffer on your 2+ to hits in case of penalties *chuckle* along with the other bonuses.
Admittedly though Cryptek might be the better option for this so that you effectively have a Cryptek, overlord (nem) and lord (oby) combo with a protection squad rolling in for shooting and melee T1. Heck if you have a second squad and an Overlord back with Oby's TP crew then you can still MWBD the team Obyron will be porting up with for that extra +1 to help on your ~ 2/3 inch charge?
skoffs wrote: Well, if anyone getting the book can come back here and confirm the exact wording for us regarding who is and isn't allowed relics we would be extremely grateful.
The wording says, exactly:
"If your army is led by a NECRON warlord, then you may give the following Relic to a NECRON CHARACTER (other than a Ctan Shard) in your army"
"If your army is led by a NECRON warlord, then you may give the following Relic to a NECRON CHARACTER (other than a Ctan Shard) in your army"
Yeah, that looks pretty ironclad that RAW allows it.
No one else was able to find anything in the book that might disallow it, right?
(Like some sort of universal rule that says only non-SC generics can carry relics or something).
2CP a Canoptek unit at the beginning of your turn gains Reanimation protocols until end of turn
A bit expensive but interesting, especially if you can keep in range of a cryptek... Big squads of Wraiths are even scarier once your infantry catches up to them.
---
Is deploying from a transport at the start of the turn, or the start of the move phase? Just wondering if I could pair a ghost ark with a cryptek tailing a large squad or two of Wraiths as firesupport to get the max impact out of this.
Lothmar wrote: 2CP a Canoptek unit at the beginning of your turn gains Reanimation protocols until end of turn
Not terrible, especially if you can keep in range of a cryptek... Big squads of Wraiths are even scarier.
Wraiths don't really need help to stay alive. Would kind of seem like unnecessary overkill when there are other things in the army that could do with the help.
What would REALLY make them scary would be something to help them improved killiness.
True but I find I can get people flustered and cause them to over dedicate firepower into wraiths sometimes, thus if I could suddenly bring them back from 1 model then I might just tip their stability and throw off the player enough to do a bit better.
Canoptek Arcanthrites have decent sized squads too and are pretty interesting if not as survivable as wraiths, perhaps this would be good for them as well.
"If your army is led by a NECRON warlord, then you may give the following Relic to a NECRON CHARACTER (other than a Ctan Shard) in your army"
Yeah, that looks pretty ironclad that RAW allows it.
No one else was able to find anything in the book that might disallow it, right?
(Like some sort of universal rule that says only non-SC generics can carry relics or something).
"If your army is led by a NECRON warlord, then you may give the following Relic to a NECRON CHARACTER (other than a Ctan Shard) in your army"
Yeah, that looks pretty ironclad that RAW allows it.
No one else was able to find anything in the book that might disallow it, right?
(Like some sort of universal rule that says only non-SC generics can carry relics or something).
Please put lists posted in the tactics thread under spoilers.
Don't have the book, so I'm not sure how it's laid out, but in the GHB, there is a universal rule at the beginning of the section regarding artifacts and allegiance abilities that states unique models can't take artifacts. You may want to double check the beginning of that section.
2CP a Canoptek unit at the beginning of your turn gains Reanimation protocols until end of turn
A bit expensive but interesting, especially if you can keep in range of a cryptek... Big squads of Wraiths are even scarier once your infantry catches up to them.
---
Is deploying from a transport at the start of the turn, or the start of the move phase? Just wondering if I could pair a ghost ark with a cryptek tailing a large squad or two of Wraiths as firesupport to get the max impact out of this.
Strange wording though.
You get it at the beginning of your turn, so models killed last turn don't matter.
It lasts until the end of your turn, so the turn after, when you roll for reanimation, they already lost the rule...
(I know it wouldn't make sense if you couldn't use it, but when do you declare it? Before you lose any? Or on a turn you had losses...)
Automatically Appended Next Post: never mind, found it:
Spoiler:
Roll a D6 for each slain model from this unit (unless the whole unit has been completely destroyed) at the beginning of your turn. On a 5+, the model's reanimation protocols activate and it is returned to this unit, otherwise they remain inactive (although you can roll again at the start of each of your subsequent turns). When a model's reanimation protocols activate, set it up in unit coherency with any model from this unit that has not returned to the unit as a result of reanimation protocols this turn, and more than 1" from enemy models. If you cannot do this because there is no room to place the model, do not set it up.
So when you have 1 of your 6 wraiths remaining and the turn is yours, you pop this.
Then according to RP you roll a dice for each slain model of the unit (so 5) en try to reanimate
Very nice
Unkillable already hard to kill Wraiths?
Reinforcing Acanthrites close to the enemy?
Getting more ablative wounds on your scarabs?
I already liked Canopteks, but now I like'em on a whole nother level
should have been 1CP tho, because you have to roll for it, as opposed to a certain Forgeworld that just does it...
skoffs wrote: Well, if anyone getting the book can come back here and confirm the exact wording for us regarding who is and isn't allowed relics we would be extremely grateful.
The wording says, exactly:
"If your army is led by a NECRON warlord, then you may give the following Relic to a NECRON CHARACTER (other than a Ctan Shard) in your army"
Unless there's a general rule on page 88 that would apply to all of the armies getting relics in Chapter Approved preventing you from giving them to named characters.
Spoiler:
Really, we just have to wait until we have the full rules.
Even if named characters can take relics by RAW in Chapter Approved it's absolutely not the intention and is the result of a mistake or an important sentence getting cut for page count. Do not get used to it.
Would the -1 damage WL trait work well on the CCB? Does it apply to damage before you roll QS, or after? The trait could potentially undermine the CCB's main defensive characteristic.
I am glad to see that Necron SCs are able to take the Veil, for the moment. I worry about the bearer failing the charge while his MWBD-boosted cronies make it in however -- someone somewhere said that Necron players would complain if we got a trait giving characters MWBD but I'd actually love that...
Drakmord wrote: Would the -1 damage WL trait work well on the CCB? Does it apply to damage before you roll QS, or after? The trait could potentially undermine the CCB's main defensive characteristic.
I am glad to see that Necron SCs are able to take the Veil, for the moment. I worry about the bearer failing the charge while his MWBD-boosted cronies make it in however -- someone somewhere said that Necron players would complain if we got a trait giving characters MWBD but I'd actually love that...
QS is for wounds 'suffered', ie incoming wounds. The -1 damage WL trait is for wound "inflicted", ie wounds are actually decremented. So that means the -1 damage is after the QS.
Anyone know what else is covered in the faction rules section for Necrons? (pg. 95)
I saw a copy of it, but it was in Japanese (which I can't read).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote: So now we play with Anrakyr and give him the Veil so he can teleport himself and a bunch of Lychguard into combat.
Again, with a 9" charge, I'd say he/they might still need some help getting there.
As far as I can tell, Obyron is still the only way to get something close enough to actually charge reliably.
Not saying it's impossible to do with Anrakyr (if SCs are allowed relics), just that statistics would not be on your side (and ideally you want to try to mitigate bad stats as much as possible in this game if you want to increase your chances of winning).
sieGermans wrote: So Anrakyr can give them +1 charge distance, and with the free 1” you get, it’s only a 7” Charge.
Only 15/36 = 5/12 chance of failure before CP re-roll.
8". You have to be MORE THAN 9" away, like all other Deep Strikes
Exactly.
Look at it this way: you have a 41% chance of rolling an 8+ on 2d6... that's practically a 60% chance that you're going to fail your charge (goes up to 72% chance of failure if you need a 9+). Do you really want to risk it that badly that you're willing to go against those odds?
No, for me, 9" is the perfect rapid fire range. Not typically going to risk charging with anything unless I'm inside 6" unless I absolutely have to.
sieGermans wrote: So Anrakyr can give them +1 charge distance, and with the free 1” you get, it’s only a 7” Charge.
Only 15/36 = 5/12 chance of failure before CP re-roll.
8". You have to be MORE THAN 9" away, like all other Deep Strikes
Exactly.
Look at it this way: you have a 41% chance of rolling an 8+ on 2d6... that's practically a 60% chance that you're going to fail your charge (goes up to 72% chance of failure if you need a 9+). Do you really want to risk it that badly that you're willing to go against those odds?
No, for me, 9" is the perfect rapid fire range. Not typically going to risk charging with anything unless I'm inside 6" unless I absolutely have to.
sieGermans wrote: So Anrakyr can give them +1 charge distance, and with the free 1” you get, it’s only a 7” Charge.
Only 15/36 = 5/12 chance of failure before CP re-roll.
8". You have to be MORE THAN 9" away, like all other Deep Strikes
Exactly.
Look at it this way: you have a 41% chance of rolling an 8+ on 2d6... that's practically a 60% chance that you're going to fail your charge (goes up to 72% chance of failure if you need a 9+). Do you really want to risk it that badly that you're willing to go against those odds?
No, for me, 9" is the perfect rapid fire range. Not typically going to risk charging with anything unless I'm inside 6" unless I absolutely have to.
Are you that afraid of Overwatch?
The issue isn't Overwatch, usually. The issue is failing the charge and then getting shot to pieces by the army you are directly in front of or being countercharged by something scary
Yeah you're now sitting duck in rapid fire range of his entire army. If you're lucky and a couple of models survive, the enemy has now shuffled his vulnerable targets away from them, bringing schaff or heavy cc hitters in their path. Your 500 pt investment will be a failure.
Thanks for clearing up the Warlord trait on a C'tan (no go).
It does certainly say any character can take the relic, but we still aren't sure about whether there's something written elsewhere that would prohibit named characters from taking it, so just as long as everyone knows that it COULD be a potential unclarified issue your opponent might argue.
(I guess as a counter we could use the "rules in supplementary material supercedes BRB rules" claim).
skoffs wrote: Thanks for clearing up the Warlord trait on a C'tan (no go).
It does certainly say any character can take the relic, but we still aren't sure about whether there's something written elsewhere that would prohibit named characters from taking it, so just as long as everyone knows that it COULD be a potential unclarified issue your opponent might argue.
(I guess as a counter we could use the "rules in supplementary material supercedes BRB rules" claim).
If you check the other pic aswell (I posted 2 pics, both from CA, albeit they take some space lol), it clearly states that any named character may not take a relic.
Edit - I could've made it a bit more clear with 2 spoilers ~
The second Stratagem is also only for one unit! Wow, that’s really not great. 1/6 of all RP rolls for a unit are expected to be 1s, and only 1/3 of those rerolls are expected to succeed. As a 1/9 ratio, even on expensive units like Destroyers, at 50pts per model, that’s 5.5pts * (maximum of 5) = 27.5 pts for 2cps, or 13.75 / cp.
Depending on your list, if you consider troops a tax (and some folks don’t!), you’ve usually paid 85 or 120 pts per CP... to only make back 13.75 is kinda awful.
With more interesting uses of CPs maybe we'll see more 5man immortals and battalions, or bigger troop blobs transported upfield with GI and the Veil for bigger impact
Welp, this was utter disappointing.
We get the Veil back but it's pretty much only useful for a single unit of suicide Gauss Immortals.
You can combo with Deceiver if you have the points, but it's just going to make it "D3+1.5 units move up" basically.
You might be able to give it to a D.Lord so he can reposition himself and a unit of Destroyers into cover 23" away from an enemy unit they can get line of sight on, but that's going to cost a fortune.
Nope, I don't see the stuff from C.A doing anything to get Necrons out of the bottom tier.
My guys are going back into hibernation. Wake us up when you hear something about the codex.
Care to explain how?
Dropping them 9" away is what Flayed Ones already have and people don't exactly consider that viable, despite their superior offensive capabilities.
Actually, trying to use the http://dice-hammer.com site to figure something out, I'm not sure what goes where for melee
It looks like there are three places to enter the number of attacks.
Because they get MWBD for WS2+ and 8" Charge, couple with rerolls and that's good enough for me.
I meant to write Tesla Btw, not Gauss. Clear out screens with 2x Immortal MWBD Tesla, then throw the Lychguard down the throat of whats left, all the better if they are +1A from TM.
The benefit of the Veil is not only is it the most reliable delivery method that combos with MWBD, it's also free. You don't have to muck around with sinking points into the Deciever, or monoliths or Obyron or whatever. You can take your 2xOL, Tesla, Lychguard and have room for everything else - Canoptek, Quantums, whatever.
Care to explain how?
Dropping them 9" away is what Flayed Ones already have and people don't exactly consider that viable, despite their superior offensive capabilities.
Actually, trying to use the http://dicehammer.com site to figure something out, I'm not sure what goes where for melee
It looks like there are three places to enter the number of attacks.
I need to write a manual.
What you struggle with is a necessary evil:
* Any unit has an Attack characteristic, that's the first box
* You can split those attacks between different weapons, that's the second box. For example some weapons give bonus attack that has to be used on that weapon, eg chain swords, then you have to be able to split attacks on different weapons.
* The third box: some weapons have the property: "Roll 3 or roll D3 attacks when you roll an attack with this weapon", essentially making it "Melee 3" or "Melee D3", so the form has to support that too to be complete.
There.
In your case just enter the Attack charactreistic of the unit. Let the web page auto-set that number of attacks on the one and only Melee weapon, and keep it at 1 hits, becasue thats what most melele weapons are.
torblind wrote: It makes In your case just enter the Attack charactreistic of the unit. Let the web page auto-set that number of attacks on the one and only Melee weapon, and keep it at 1 hits, becasue thats what most melele weapons are.
So in the case of Warscythe Lychguard what would it be?
(in order, left to right, top to bottom):
Yep, 'Attack Characteristic of Unit' would be a better tooltip text.
That's the value to set anyway, most units only ever have one melee weapon so all unit's attacks go to that weapon. If the unit you model has only one weapon, then the attacks of that weapon gets set to unit's A automatically and don't let you change it
Automatically Appended Next Post: The unit's attacks Characteristic is the available attacks you get to distribute on your melee weapons (that's the most flexible way to model it)
Basically trying to do an equal points comparison (roughly) between Lychguard (Warscythe x10 + Cryptek for Veil = 404 points) and Flayed Ones (x19 = 399 points), seeing as how both are going to have the same delivery method now (9.01" deep strike, which I still think is not a wise charge to attempt, but for theoretical arguments sake).
The image posted is just for the Lychguard, but something seems off.
I think 20 Warriors + a Cryptek with Veil is probably ok too. Zap them up the table, line up as a wall, force them to kill the wall to proceed. Solid speedbump, though still not "great".
Tokhuah wrote: Just checking in to see if 8th is worth playing yet... Nope!
8th is the best edition of 40k in a long time. There are some abusive builds but overall it is quite solid and the gameplay itself is, imo, the best it's been in a while.
skoffs wrote: Hmm, i think I'm still doing something wrong.
Spoiler:
Basically trying to do an equal points comparison (roughly) between Lychguard (Warscythe x10 + Cryptek for Veil = 404 points) and Flayed Ones (x19 = 399 points), seeing as how both are going to have the same delivery method now (9.01" deep strike, which I still think is not a wise charge to attempt, but for theoretical arguments sake).
The image posted is just for the Lychguard, but something seems off.
It seems right.
That's what it says. For lower Toughness targets it reports 1dmg per wound (these are usually 1wound models), for higher Toughness models you get the full 2dmg per wound, hence the double for T5-T6 (that still wound on 3+)
Automatically Appended Next Post: If the T4 split in the table is unclear, it is explained in the help text on the page, and you can click that little button in the middle to toggle the behaviour.
Okay, so for the Battle of Bad ideas (trying to charge from 9" away), when comparing roughly equal points of 10x Warscythe Lychguard + Cryptek and 19x Flayed Ones,
Looks like the Flayed Ones win out against MEQs, causing 12.6 wounds to the Lychguard squad's 9.3.
Against Guard it's no contest, with Flayed Ones putting out double the hurt.
Lychguard are better against things T5+, so I guess it'll be meta dependant.
Personally, I think it would be better to compare Warriors, Immortals, and Destroyers for who would be best to take the Veil. Problem there is you can't really do an accurate comparison because there's no way to get equal points of Immortals and Destroyers up.
I don't see the point of factoring in the Cryptek.
The whole reasoning of Lychguard + Overlord is you can MWBD them for an 8 inch charge, which means your success expectation jumps from ~50% (9") to ~70% (8").
As everyone knows by now, you can't MWBD Flayed Ones the turn they come in, so it's a non-comparison.
You could substitute straight Flayed Ones for Lychguard and veil the Flayed Ones, but then you're getting 15 FO to 10 LG, not 19 to 10.
I much prefer LG here because 10 T53+ sticks around more than 15 T4 4+. FO do more against GeQ but that's that's not useful to the battleplan because Tesla Immortals already take GeQ apart, Lychguard are better for hurting what those Tesla Immortals struggle with.
If you wanted to all in on FO something like Imotekh, VoD OL, Deceiver, 10 Tesla Immos, 10 Gauss Immos, 20 Warriors, 20 FO. Over 1500 points through, but 80 str 4 attacks hitting 2s rerolling 1s, and rerolling all wounds, with possible -2 to morale is pretty funny. Loads more points of failure though and over 1500 points for that setup.
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: The whole reasoning of Lychguard + Overlord is you can MWBD them for an 8 inch charge, which means your success expectation jumps from ~50% (9") to ~70% (8").
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: The whole reasoning of Lychguard + Overlord is you can MWBD them for an 8 inch charge, which means your success expectation jumps from ~50% (9" to ~70% (8".
You might want to check your math there.
I'm assuming you burn the reroll if required.
Hitting first go 9" -> 8" is 28% -> 42%
With reroll it's 9" -> 8" is 52% -> 68%
You make your Lychguard veil charge 2/3 games.
1/3 games they have a double reroll available which increases overall success by about 2% (to pretty much 7/10 games)
1/5 games they have +1A after making the charge.
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: The whole reasoning of Lychguard + Overlord is you can MWBD them for an 8 inch charge, which means your success expectation jumps from ~50% (9") to ~70% (8").
You might want to check your math there.
I'm assuming you burn the reroll if required.
That would improve things, yes, but then we're back to the "and what else are you going to do?" issue.
You've got a unit and an HQ up in enemy territory turn one. What else is going to support them? HOW is that support getting there?
Plus and besides the fact that any opponent with basic common sense is going to bubble wrap their important stuff against CC alpha strikes (it was done before C.A, it's not changing any time soon).
TL;DR- unless you're going all in with Deceiver Bomb, it makes more sense to use the Veil with shooters.
That combined VoD and GI bomb sounded kind of hilarious though, the critical dice rolls (LG charge and GI roll) happen at different phases, so you can burn CP on both.
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: The whole reasoning of Lychguard + Overlord is you can MWBD them for an 8 inch charge, which means your success expectation jumps from ~50% (9") to ~70% (8").
You might want to check your math there.
I'm assuming you burn the reroll if required.
That would improve things, yes, but then we're back to the "and what else are you going to do?" issue.
You've got a unit and an HQ up in enemy territory turn one. What else is going to support them? HOW is that support getting there?
Plus and besides the fact that any opponent with basic common sense is going to bubble wrap their important stuff against CC alpha strikes (it was done before C.A, it's not changing any time soon).
TL;DR- unless you're going all in with Deceiver Bomb, it makes more sense to use the Veil with shooters.
As originally said, Tesla Immortals engage screens turn 1. The whole point of bubble wrapping is that it works. Every single army with a deepstrike melee element has to deal with screens. That's not really the issue for Necrons because Tesla Immortals can remove GeQ screens and either Destroyers or Tomb Blades can remove MeQ screens. Dealing the crippling blow afterwards is the traditional struggle. LG are the finisher, not the opener.
Edit:
The whole thing is now Lychguard are actually a viable element for a list. Before you had to use some sort of Zandrekh/Obyron move at best, or a tomb world/deciever sort of thing and it was all horrendously awkward and most of all expensive. Far better off to use Praetorians or Wraiths and hope for the best, but the lack of 2damage weaps on both actually hurt a hell of a lot.
Now, 2x OL(Veil), 3x10 Immortals and 1x10 Lychguard is 1000 and a very solid core by Necron index standards. Having 1000 left in a 2k game to fill out is massive, that's that full Destroyer wing, or enough for 2 Tstalkers, a Doom ark and a whole 9 strong Tombblade unit, etc
My current VoD + G.I combo looks like this ; I G.I - Gauss Immortals, 8 Gauss Tomb Blades w/ a mixture of 3+ and 5+ invul saves and 5 Canoptek Acanthrites. I then use a Cryptek to VoD himself and another unit of Gauss Immortals.
If done right (getting to move 3 via G.I) that's 2 Gauss Immos being deployed into cover for 2+ saves and with the Crypteks they get 5+ invul agaisnt Shooting, the unit of Acanthrites are also deployed into cover and take care of T6 or worse vehicles and the Tomb Blades will just be mobile Immortals killing enemy units or grabbing objectives.
Everything can also be buffed to a 4+ RP via Cryptek and Stratagems so might be useful if kept as a "core" of Anti-infantry and Light Vehicles.
Wraiths wouldn't benefit from cover save, as you all probably know, as they are Sv 4+ in their profile
The only issue I see with Wraiths being G.I is that they cannot charge that turn and if focused fired then you will lose several Wraiths even with 3+ invul. I thought about using them as well but then looked at Acanthrites and noticed that if you G.I them into cover and 50% obscured they have a 2+ save and -1 to hit should tank them a little longer. Their gun is also Melta so you can freely move them after G.I to get within half range of an enemy unit to make use of Rolling 2 damage Die and discarding the lowest. Acanthrites should also hold units in CC just like Wraiths do but maybe a bit worse then Wraiths do.
9 Acanthrites veiled into cover (although that might be difficult) is a scary thought. Considering the strategem that allows RP for canoptec units. They are also ok in CC and can then just fall back and blast the enemy.
Does the Acanthrites get +1 attack because of their swords? I guess it's not faq:ed since they are FW.
Counterpoint, wraiths now get RP and a 3++ everywhere is better than a no invuln save. You'd need to run a big squad of acanthrites to be survivable, plus they aren't infantry so each model will have to be wholly within and 50% obscured. Wraiths can sit on a critical objective close to scythe T1, soak a huge amount of punishment, RP, charge T2 funza
I think the Viel + deceiver combo will be very cheesy in a relic objective game especially if we get initiative.
Before turn 1, move character who carries the viel with the deciever and screening unit forward (Cryptek + 20 man warrior for max soak and if you get a 3 you can take a ghost ark along for 2x RP's) assuming you dont poo the bed with double 1's. *chuckle*
Your turn 1, assuming the enemy didn't get first initiative and then wiped your artifact grabbers (or they did go first but failed to finish you). Either dont move your forward forces or pull them back to do your RP's accordingly if the enemy got you wrapped into melee. Then at end of move just veil TP your character with the picked up objective and his squad to edge of table where remaining units screen and Shake hands cause you'll be off the board next turn.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: 9 Acanthrites veiled into cover (although that might be difficult) is a scary thought. Considering the strategem that allows RP for canoptec units. They are also ok in CC and can then just fall back and blast the enemy.
Does the Acanthrites get +1 attack because of their swords? I guess it's not faq:ed since they are FW.
A unit of 6 should be more then enough and will help with being 50% obscured as the unit is a smaller size.
I
I would almost say Acanthrites are almost better at CC then Wraiths due to 4 S5 -3 D1 attacks compared to 3 S5 -1 D1.
T1 Deploy into cover and shoot the Melta, T2 move 11" , shoot the Melta and charge a a unit at T4 or lower for 3+ to wound.
They do get +1 attack for the voidblades as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Klowny wrote: Counterpoint, wraiths now get RP and a 3++ everywhere is better than a no invuln save. You'd need to run a big squad of acanthrites to be survivable, plus they aren't infantry so each model will have to be wholly within and 50% obscured. Wraiths can sit on a critical objective close to scythe T1, soak a huge amount of punishment, RP, charge T2 funza
The difference between them.
Wraiths; 3++ invul, ignore Terrain and enemy models for charging, good at holding units and vehicle in CC. Can now be RP to make them bout 30% more survivable depending on the unit size.
Acanthrites; -1 is no 3++ but they can at least have a 2+ save in cover (if 50% obscured). They are a T4 or lower unit killer. carry a 12 S7 Melta.. Have the fly Keyword so even if in CC with a tough enemy unit they can just fly back and laser cut them to pieces with the Melta. Also have access to RP so probably 25-40% more survivable depending on unit size. Only issue is 60pts per model so having them with a Cryptek for 4+ RP is probably the best way to make sure they survive meaning their mobility mind be hindered for survivability.
Little late to the party I know but here are my thoughts:
Enduring will, unique, but with the enhanced rules in CA:2017 that make ICs even more impossible to hit at range, seems like a trait you'd take on an all in melee warlord like a D-Lord. As that isn't the best use of our HQ slots, will probably not get used much.
Veil of darkness, hey it's the veil of darkness, almost exactly as we imagined it would behave. Made better by the fact that MWBD turns a 9" charge into an 8" charge, 42% chance to make it and even better if you are willing to blow a CP on a reroll. Lychguard get better with a reliable delivery mechanism, but how much is debatable. Now they start to run into 8th ed 1st world problems like all the valuable enemies will be screened, and a 9" bubble is pretty easy to push away from the action. On the bright side you are already on the board, so you can wait for the right time to strike.
Repair subroutines, nice, no real complaints since it turns 2 CP into what are effectively extra units. Since wraiths are tough against everything but smite spam, you can afford to hang onto it until most of the unit is taken out.
Enhanced reanimation protocols, seems pricey, even under the best circumstances it will get you an extra unit per 12 RP checks. For one CP It might be worth it for a hail mary on an expensive unit, but for two it's effect is dwarfed by repair subroutines. You'll get much more effect by spending a single CP to reroll a failed RP check. This falls into the GW is bad at math category of completely useless Stratagems.
I still feel like using CP to give Wraiths RP is unnecessary overkill, like giving Warriors a Ghost Ark AND a Cryptek.
Acanthrites, on the other hand, are the perfect candidate.
Scarabs are so cheap they don't need it.
Spyders, maybe... but no one takes Spyders, so probably not.
Unfortunate the Sentinel & Stalker can't even take it (unit of one, after all).
Aranthracites yes, will use it more, as they are nowhere near as durable. Youll be burning CP left and right to keep them rolling RP.
Lets be real, only a small squad size will get cover, so they wont get a 2+ in most cases, and a -1 to hit wont keep them alive long enough to burn RP unless in max squad sizes. I've run 6 wraiths with a nightbringer in a 60 player tournament recently, against nasty lists they will be whittled down over the course of the game, unless its smite spam but theres not much we have in defence of that. BUT, getting to roll RP to clutch back some insanely durable units midgame has FAR greater worth than some glass cannons that will get another shot off then probably die again.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm not saying aranthracites are bad, I just know how useful wraiths are in a game, they shut down really nasty units as they cant kill them. This lets the rest of your guns do the heavy lifting around the board. We already have good guns, canoptek do screen better than damage IMO
The fact that wraiths are so survivable is a big bonus to giving them RP. I played a game the other night using the new rules and it was priceless to hear the groan from my opponent when I brought two back after he just dedicated a ton of shooting towards the unit.
Is there a way we can compare several S6 -3 D 1 shots agaisnt the Wraiths and Acanthrites? Just want to see the average survivability between -1 to hit vs 3++ invul.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets be real, only a small squad size will get cover, so they wont get a 2+ in most cases, and a -1 to hit wont keep them alive long enough to burn RP unless in max squad sizes. I've run 6 wraiths with a nightbringer in a 60 player tournament recently, against nasty lists they will be whittled down over the course of the game, unless its smite spam but theres not much we have in defence of that. BUT, getting to roll RP to clutch back some insanely durable units midgame has FAR greater worth than some glass cannons that will get another shot off then probably die again.
A lot of terrain that I and the Wargaming group I am apart of use lots of different sized Terrain to give oddly shaped models a 50% obscured for +1 save. We all have our buildings on plywood with Resin-cast rocks and walls too add to the Terrains usefulness as well.
The Acanthrites -1 to hit is the difference of a BS 4+ weapon hitting on a 5+ or not. While a Wraiths will tank anything at the 3++ the Acanthrites make anything BS4 and up nearly 50% worse at Shooting.
Both units do different jobs though. Wraiths are good at holding things up and ruining your oppontents plans while an Acanthrites is probably the most aggressive Canoptek unit we have in that it can kill both Light Vehicles and Transport via 12" S7 Melta and T4 or lower models in CC.
Wraiths prefer being in CC though and the 3++ invul shows it. The 3++ can only do so much when focused fired but if the 3++ is only tanking Several CC attacks then the survivability of the Wraiths improve. Acanthrites are probably better at being shot at as the -1 only applies to shooting and you cannot get +1 in cover if in CC.
My anti-tank is currently 2 Tesseract Arks, unit of 6 Acanthrites and Illuminor Szeras but might swap him for a THGC Triarch Stalker as I have 30 pts spare and can drop another few somewhere else in my current list.
Has anyone figured out how Quantum Sheilding and the new warlord trait interact? The best I can come up with is that the two effects trigger simultaneously so the person whose turn it is picks lol.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Has anyone figured out how Quantum Sheilding and the new warlord trait interact? The best I can come up with is that the two effects trigger simultaneously so the person whose turn it is picks lol.
Also the relic on named characters?
It should trigger the QS first, say 2 damage are dealt to your CCB you try to stop it with QS but roll a 3 so the 2 bypasses it. Now you can use the new trait to reduce the damage down to 1 and that makes it through. So beginning of your turn you then use living metal to regain that lost wound.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: 9 Acanthrites veiled into cover (although that might be difficult) is a scary thought. Considering the strategem that allows RP for canoptec units. They are also ok in CC and can then just fall back and blast the enemy.
Does the Acanthrites get +1 attack because of their swords? I guess it's not faq:ed since they are FW.
A unit of 6 should be more then enough and will help with being 50% obscured as the unit is a smaller size.
I
I would almost say Acanthrites are almost better at CC then Wraiths due to 4 S5 -3 D1 attacks compared to 3 S5 -1 D1.
T1 Deploy into cover and shoot the Melta, T2 move 11" , shoot the Melta and charge a a unit at T4 or lower for 3+ to wound.
They do get +1 attack for the voidblades as well.Automatically Appended Next Post:
Klowny wrote: Counterpoint, wraiths now get RP and a 3++ everywhere is better than a no invuln save. You'd need to run a big squad of acanthrites to be survivable, plus they aren't infantry so each model will have to be wholly within and 50% obscured. Wraiths can sit on a critical objective close to scythe T1, soak a huge amount of punishment, RP, charge T2 funza
The difference between them.
Wraiths; 3++ invul, ignore Terrain and enemy models for charging, good at holding units and vehicle in CC. Can now be RP to make them bout 30% more survivable depending on the unit size.
Acanthrites; -1 is no 3++ but they can at least have a 2+ save in cover (if 50% obscured). They are a T4 or lower unit killer. carry a 12 S7 Melta.. Have the fly Keyword so even if in CC with a tough enemy unit they can just fly back and laser cut them to pieces with the Melta. Also have access to RP so probably 25-40% more survivable depending on unit size. Only issue is 60pts per model so having them with a Cryptek for 4+ RP is probably the best way to make sure they survive meaning their mobility mind be hindered for survivability.
Interesting point on Acanthrites, but 9 of them is 540 points. For 10 points more you can get a Pylon. Are they really worth a quarter of your army points?
I think that they pylon at the current price is slightly overcosted and it's a bit of a one hit wonder.
However the Acanthrites and Big pylon have different targets since the Acanthrite melta is only S7.
For the same point cost you could also get 2 Tesseract Arks or 3 Tomb Sentinels.
It's so sad that these units are FW, I could run any of them and probably not be dissapointet.
If GW only would buff the heavy index units to FW levels I would be very happy.
I imagine an army consisting of:
CCB with veil
Deceiver
10 Tesla immortals
6-9 Acanthrites
6-9 Tomb blades
and then add whatever you need.
Immortals are Veiled and given MWBD, Deceiver uses GI on Acanthrites so that they can move and fire and Tomb blades moves up.
Bring down one part of the opponents army at a time.
If only Monoliths and Flayed ones comes down in points Necrons can have a really nasty alpha strike.
Imagine a Monolith and 20 Flayed ones coming in at the same time.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: Acanthrites veiled into cover (although that might be difficult) is a scary thought. Considering the strategem that allows RP for canoptec units. They are also ok in CC and can then just fall back and blast the enemy.
Does the Acanthrites get +1 attack because of their swords? I guess it's not faq:ed since they are FW.
A unit of 6 should be more then enough and will help with being 50% obscured as the unit is a smaller size.
I
I would almost say Acanthrites are almost better at CC then Wraiths due to 4 S5 -3 D1 attacks compared to 3 S5 -1 D1.
T1 Deploy into cover and shoot the Melta, T2 move 11" , shoot the Melta and charge a a unit at T4 or lower for 3+ to wound.
They do get +1 attack for the voidblades as well.Automatically Appended Next Post:
Klowny wrote: Counterpoint, wraiths now get RP and a 3++ everywhere is better than a no invuln save. You'd need to run a big squad of acanthrites to be survivable, plus they aren't infantry so each model will have to be wholly within and 50% obscured. Wraiths can sit on a critical objective close to scythe T1, soak a huge amount of punishment, RP, charge T2 funza
The difference between them.
Wraiths; 3++ invul, ignore Terrain and enemy models for charging, good at holding units and vehicle in CC. Can now be RP to make them bout 30% more survivable depending on the unit size.
Acanthrites; -1 is no 3++ but they can at least have a 2+ save in cover (if 50% obscured). They are a T4 or lower unit killer. carry a 12 S7 Melta.. Have the fly Keyword so even if in CC with a tough enemy unit they can just fly back and laser cut them to pieces with the Melta. Also have access to RP so probably 25-40% more survivable depending on unit size. Only issue is 60pts per model so having them with a Cryptek for 4+ RP is probably the best way to make sure they survive meaning their mobility mind be hindered for survivability.
Interesting point on Acanthrites, but 9 of them is 540 points. For 10 points more you can get a Pylon. Are they really worth a quarter of your army points?
Like Cmdr_Sune said, they both have different jobs. Acanthrites are "only" S7 with their Melta so you are mostly targeting Troop-Transports and light-aromured vehicles (T6 or below), you need to be up close and personal to make use of the gun.
Spoiler:
The Pylon is mainly a "Titanic" keyword killer and tabk killer, no good agaisnt units with 6+ models unless they have multi-wound or if you use the Heavy profile of the Pylon (should never have to). It can hit anywhere on the table so it can comfortably sit in your back corner with a screen of Scarabs killing Titan-esque models.
In terms of basic damage they both preform the same if they all wounding rolls go through and highest damage possible e.g. "max unit count/shots" x "max damage output".
Acanthrites = 9 x 6 = 54 wounds max from a unit of Acanthrites.
Pylon = 6 x 9 (6+D3 wounds) = 54 wounds standard and 108 wounds vs Titanic keyword models.
On your point about 9 Acanthrites being 540pts, I would only invest that mainy points if I was using them as my main Anti-tank. I usually field 5-6 Acanthrites due to my Terrain being able to give that mainy modles 50% obscuring. My anti-tank changes every month, 3 weeks ago I liked 2 Tesseract Arks, 1 DDA and 1 THGC Triarch Stalker while now I like 2 Tesseract Arks, 6 Acanthrites and Illuminor Szeras/THGC Triarch Stalker.
I personally wouldn't Field 9 Acanthrites unless I knew I was getting all thsoe unkts back via a Cryptek and using 2 CP for RP on them. And even if I was going to field 9 I would probably drop a few of them and another unit for a Tesseract Ark.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hey Torblind, can your "outcome" simulator compare the survivability of Acanthrites -1 to hit vs a Wraiths 3++ invul? Want to see if they are relatively close in survivability if possible.
Hey Torblind, can your "outcome" simulator compare the survivability of Acanthrites -1 to hit vs a Wraiths 3++ invul? Want to see if they are relatively close in survivability if possible.
Canoptek Tomb Sentinel (185)
++Gloom Prism
===
Veil of Darkness on a CCB along with 10 Immortals with Gauss. Illuminor for extra anti-tank and buff. Scarabs grab objectives and stay out of the way.
===
Veil of Darkness on a CCB along with 10 Immortals with Gauss. Illuminor for extra anti-tank and buff. Scarabs grab objectives and stay out of the way.
Did crons get anything in the vehicle design portion of the CA?
Just asking cause I thought I heard stuff of vehicles being able to be a little more customizable now, like to the point you can remove transport capacity on some vehicles entirely and just add more weapons. Granted I think that's on very specific vehicles, so of course more options for the imperium.
I know I would love to be able to remove transport capacity from a ghost ark and make it an even more dangerous gunboat ambulance. *chuckle*
Lothmar wrote: Did crons get anything in the vehicle design portion of the CA?
Just asking cause I thought I heard stuff of vehicles being able to be a little more customizable now, like to the point you can remove transport capacity on some vehicles entirely and just add more weapons. Granted I think that's on very specific vehicles, so of course more options for the imperium.
I know I would love to be able to remove transport capacity from a ghost ark and make it an even more dangerous gunboat ambulance. *chuckle*
The Vehicle Design Rules are strictly for Land Raiders and are for Open Play only.
Canoptek Tomb Sentinel (185)
++Gloom Prism
===
Veil of Darkness on a CCB along with 10 Immortals with Gauss. Illuminor for extra anti-tank and buff. Scarabs grab objectives and stay out of the way.
Thank you for using spoilers.
I would switch the CCBs to Tesla cannons so they don't get the penalty to shooting if they move. Use extra points on more Scarabs.
A CCB doesn't need the Veil, it's already fast enough. You should give it to the Overlord.
Deathmarks should probably be in a single unit of 10 rather than two units of 5, to improve their chances getting 6s against target, as well as RP likelihood.
Lothmar wrote: Did crons get anything in the vehicle design portion of the CA?
Just asking cause I thought I heard stuff of vehicles being able to be a little more customizable now, like to the point you can remove transport capacity on some vehicles entirely and just add more weapons. Granted I think that's on very specific vehicles, so of course more options for the imperium.
I know I would love to be able to remove transport capacity from a ghost ark and make it an even more dangerous gunboat ambulance. *chuckle*
It's just Land Raiders for now. HOWEVER, if you fake a little enthusiasm, they might get to doing the vehicle design rules for all armies slightly quicker.
How likely is it that Necrons get vehicle options?
... perhaps they could have one option for the Ghost Ark.
"You may equip the GA with a Doomsday Cannon, however if you do so you will loose all transport capacity and the vehicle gets the Heavy battlefield role."
They could actually do something similar with the Night Scythe.
Lothmar wrote: So am I understanding it right that if we want the Veil that's effectively our 'warlord trait'?
Also if we take that, then that means some unknown character is leading the army instead of any of the named I might take?
The Veil is an Artifact. The way Artifacts work in 8th is that you get one for free on any one character as long as you're Battleforged with just that one Faction (which, for Necrons, is always). So you can take Zahndrekh as your Warlord and put the Veil on a Cryptek. Every army so far has gotten a Stratagem to pay 1CP before the game to get another Artifact, 3CP to get two more.
Lothmar wrote: That's what I needed to confirm, thanks Ara.
Im hoping they bring back the Cryptek unique staffs.
Well they gave Guard back Blob Squads with a Stratagem and Dark Angels got the ability to upgrade Characters to be Deathwing, so maybe we could get something similar like "1CP: make a Cryptek into a Harbinger of Destruction/Harbinger of the Storm/etc".
to ~70% (8"
