Does BL auto hit flyers?

No, as you cannot snap shot anything that does not require a BS.

Happyjew wrote:
No, as you cannot snap shot anything that does not require a BS.

Just going to put this out there for debate,

With Blood Lance, you are never resolving a shot at a zooming Flyer per the rules for Hard to Hit so you are never in fact taking a Snap Shot.

I'm fine with Blood Lance hitting flyers, as long as my vibro cannons can.

Happyjew wrote:
I'm fine with Blood Lance hitting flyers, as long as my vibro cannons can.

I have no problem with either as I don't play flyers in the first place....hahaha. However it has become a kneejerk reaction to bring up Snap Shot immediately without taking into consideration how certain shooting attacks work outside of the normal rules for shooting.

Should the 4D6 line cross under a flier, you would then check to see if your model has the Skyfire rule as your shot is going to be resolved as a snap shot against it. If you have the Skyfire rule, you would have had to declared it prior to shooting the power which means anything thats not a flyer, FMC, or skimmer under that beam isnt going to be hit and those models outlined just previously will be. If you dont have Skyfire your beam will pass harmlessly under the Flier and hit the units bellow it that are eligible to be hit by it.


Also, I just checked that power. Seems pretty crappy due in part to its wording against non-vehicles. :|

Xzerios wrote:
Should the 4D6 line cross under a flier, you would then check to see if your model has the Skyfire rule as your shot is going to be resolved as a snap shot against it. If you have the Skyfire rule, you would have had to declared it prior to shooting the power which means anything thats not a flyer, FMC, or skimmer under that beam isnt going to be hit and those models outlined just previously will be. If you dont have Skyfire your beam will pass harmlessly under the Flier and hit the units bellow it that are eligible to be hit by it.


Also, I just checked that power. Seems pretty crappy due in part to its wording against non-vehicles. :|

The problem with the above is that it in no way follows the rules for shooting as set in the rule book.

Shots resolved at a zooming Flyer follow a specific sequence as set in the BRB, not what you have outlined above.

You follow the shooting sequence as outlined on pg 13, iirc. When you declare the target, in this case a zooming Flyer, at that time the Hard to Hit rule comes into affect forcing you to Snap Shot because you are indeed firing at a zooming Flyer. Blood Lance never declares a target, the line is drawn and anything in the path suffers a str8 hit. You were never firing at the Flyer and thus were never resolving a shot at the Flyer.

Same with Death Ray, Vibro Cannons, and JotWW. You never declare a target, however, some of these do have a target.

Your Psychic Shooting attack though doesnt have the Skyfire rule and is unable to hit the Flier at that point.

The same issue was brought up by the Necrons Doom Scythe and the Death ray. Difference here is that the Scythe has the option to turn on Skyfire where as your model does not. You must still follow the rules outlined by the Fliers entry in the book as in this situation, a Flier is present. Since the rules for fliers state that all shots fired against them count as Snap Shots unless the model firing has Skyfire, you must then proceed to the rules for Snap Shots.

Xzerios wrote:
Your Psychic Shooting attack though doesnt have the Skyfire rule and is unable to hit the Flier at that point.

The same issue was brought up by the Necrons Doom Scythe and the Death ray. Difference here is that the Scythe has the option to turn on Skyfire where as your model does not. You must still follow the rules outlined by the Fliers entry in the book as in this situation, a Flier is present. Since the rules for fliers state that all shots fired against them count as Snap Shots unless the model firing has Skyfire, you must then proceed to the rules for Snap Shots.

Ok, canned response noted.

Now, read the rule for Hard to Hit. It specifices when resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer, you Snap Shot if you do not have Skyfire. The shooting sequence is clear as day in the BRB. At no time do you shoot Blood Lance at anything. If the rule stated when resolving hits AT a zooming Flyer, fine. However, with Blood Lance you at no time are shooting AT a zooming Flyer and never trigger the Snap Shot.

It is right there in the rules for Hard to Hit regarding resolving a shot, AT a zooming Flyer.

You can point the blood lance on a flyer but in order to get a result you must resolve the attack against the flyer. And since you can't fire it as a snapshot, the attack against the flyer can't be resolved.

That's a good thing. Imagine how broken the Necron Doom Scythe would be otherwise. And this is coming from a Necron player.

copper.talos wrote:
You can point the blood lance on a flyer but in order to get a result you must resolve the attack against the flyer. And since you can't fire it as a snapshot, the attack against the flyer can't be resolved.

That's a good thing. Imagine how broken the Necron Doom Scythe would be otherwise. And this is coming from a Necron player.

The hard to hit rule only pertains to shots. It's not a blanket statement made about any attack versus the flyer having to be snap shots only. There are a few things that cause automatic hits in a way that's not a shot.

 Shandara wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
You can point the blood lance on a flyer but in order to get a result you must resolve the attack against the flyer. And since you can't fire it as a snapshot, the attack against the flyer can't be resolved.

That's a good thing. Imagine how broken the Necron Doom Scythe would be otherwise. And this is coming from a Necron player.

The hard to hit rule only pertains to shots. It's not a blanket statement made about any attack versus the flyer having to be snap shots only. There are a few things that cause automatic hits in a way that's not a shot.

Which is EXACTLY my point.

If Hard to Hit was specific in saying, any hits resolved against a zooming Flyer, then there would be a valid argument for Blood Lance not working due to the rules for Snap Shots. Instead it uses the defined rules of shooting at a zooming Flyer, which Blood Lance never does as it will never be shooting AT a zooming Flyer. It may hit a zooming Flyer, but at no time was it ever shot AT a zooming Flyer.

Is the line drawn "on the battlefield"?

Does your shot pass over/under the flier? If it does, then youll be resolving your Psychic Shot at that flier, in addition to anything under that line in just a moment. Thats where Hard to Hit steps in and prevents you from doing so as your shot counts as an auto-hit against the flier. That shot will be resolved as a Snap Shot and auto-hits are not permitted as Snap Shots. In theory, I could then say that your unable to shoot your beam as it passed over/under my flier and save any other models that would have been hit by it on the account that your beam was one shot and had the Snap Shot rule applied to it; Denying you the effects of your power.

Xzerios wrote:
Does your shot pass over/under the flier? If it does, then youll be resolving your Psychic Shot at that flier, in addition to anything under that line in just a moment. Thats where Hard to Hit steps in and prevents you from doing so as your shot counts as an auto-hit against the flier. That shot will be resolved as a Snap Shot and auto-hits are not permitted as Snap Shots. In theory, I could then say that your unable to shoot your beam as it passed over/under my flier and save any other models that would have been hit by it on the account that your beam was one shot and had the Snap Shot rule applied to it; Denying you the effects of your power.

No, if the line passes over/under the zooming Flyer, you are not resolving a psychic shot AT the Flyer, you are resolving a hit OF the Flyer. Those are the rules for Blood Lance. You never shot AT the zooming Flyer, which is what triggers Hard to Hit.

You need to read the Shooting Sequence in the BRB and understand that is what the Hard to Hit rule refers to when it says shooting AT a zooming Flyer. As Blood Lance does not follow those rules, it never shot AT a zooming Flyer and thus never triggers Hard to Hit and the subsequent rules regarding Snap Shots.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
Does your shot pass over/under the flier? If it does, then youll be resolving your Psychic Shot at that flier, in addition to anything under that line in just a moment. Thats where Hard to Hit steps in and prevents you from doing so as your shot counts as an auto-hit against the flier. That shot will be resolved as a Snap Shot and auto-hits are not permitted as Snap Shots. In theory, I could then say that your unable to shoot your beam as it passed over/under my flier and save any other models that would have been hit by it on the account that your beam was one shot and had the Snap Shot rule applied to it; Denying you the effects of your power.

No, if the line passes over/under the zooming Flyer, you are not resolving a psychic shot AT the Flyer, you are resolving a hit OF the Flyer. Those are the rules for Blood Lance. You never shot AT the zooming Flyer, which is what triggers Hard to Hit.

You need to read the Shooting Sequence in the BRB and understand that is what the Hard to Hit rule refers to when it says shooting AT a zooming Flyer. As Blood Lance does not follow those rules, it never shot AT a zooming Flyer and thus never triggers Hard to Hit and the subsequent rules regarding Snap Shots.

You seem to know the rule for Blood Lance, does it say to draw a line "on the battlefield"?

It only says 'extend a straight line, 4d6" long... in any direction'.

 Shandara wrote:
It only says 'extend a straight line, 4d6" long... in any direction'.

And I am on the jobsite right now, but I recall it also jumping up and over certain units and terrain.

jumping over units locked in combat and up to units on ruins and the like.

Are you going to resolve that shot against the Flier or not? Mind you, a resolved shot is from the start of its To Hit to the Allocate Wounds and Remove Models; Substituting the Allocate Wounds and Remove Models with Shooting at Vehicles.

Well, I don't specifically have a dog in this debate but I view it no differently then the doom scythe weapon and I also am of the opinion that you can't shoot or hit fliers it unless you have skyfire. Mainly because you are forced to resolve as snap shots and snap shots say you can't fire a weapon that doesn't use a BS as a snap shot. While you may not be firing it as a snap shot, you certainly shouldn't be able to resolve it as one either.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Well, I don't specifically have a dog in this debate but I view it no differently then the doom scythe weapon and I also am of the opinion that you can't shoot or hit fliers it unless you have skyfire. Mainly because you are forced to resolve as snap shots and snap shots say you can't fire a weapon that doesn't use a BS as a snap shot. While you may not be firing it as a snap shot, you certainly shouldn't be able to resolve it as one either.

This is how I read it as well.

If it was not labeled as a PSA, I could see room for debate, as it is (one of) the only 'line attack' not required to be on the board.

So can the death ray shoot a flyer? as it can have skyfire as a flyer?

Death ray specifies that the line is on the battlefield.

That is what the second sentence I wrote was about.

editing to add:
Even so, it would not matter - for the same reason Kevin949 outlined.
Having skyfire is not the requirement, unless I misread, as there is no way to use it with a death ray.

 kirsanth wrote:
Death ray specifies that the line is on the battlefield.

That is what the second sentence I wrote was about.

editing to add:
Even so, it would not matter - for the same reason Kevin949 outlined.
Having skyfire is not the requirement, unless I misread, as there is no way to use it with a death ray.

The sky is still on the battlefield, but jokes aside, is what you are saying a yes or a no?

Well now wait a sec, I'm not saying the death ray can't hit fliers. I'm saying it can't resolve as snap shots against them. If you declare skyfire with it you're avoiding the snap shot rule against flyers, but you will not hit ground targets at that point with it. I know it's easily up for debate (as there have been a few threads on it already) and could very much use an FAQ ruling, but going by the rules that *I* see, that's how *I* play it.

The point I'm making is that the psyker doesn't have skyfire (barring some other situation) and so doesn't have the option to bypass the "resolve as snap shots" restriction, regardless to the auto-hit of the power (which actually further enforces it wouldn't work). If he did have skyfire, he would be in the same boat as the scythe though, hit air but not ground or hit ground but not air.

Both of you are hung up on the automatic hits element of Blood Lance and are missing the main point that you never shoot AT a zooming Flyer with Blood Lance.

You never resolve a shot AT a zooming Flyer with Blood Lance because you never shoot AT anything with Blood Lance. A 4d6 line is drawn in any direction and anything under the line suffers as str8 8 lance type hit.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Both of you are hung up on the automatic hits element of Blood Lance and are missing the main point that you never shoot AT a zooming Flyer with Blood Lance.

You never resolve a shot AT a zooming Flyer with Blood Lance because you never shoot AT anything with Blood Lance. A 4d6 line is drawn in any direction and anything under the line suffers as str8 8 lance type hit.

And nothing says you have to shoot AT anything to require hard to hit or snap shot to come into play.

 Kevin949 wrote:
And nothing says you have to shoot AT anything to require hard to hit or snap shot to come into play.

This, resolving a shot involves a series of stages, targetting, rolling to hit, rolling to penetrate, rolling on the damage table, etc.

All of these parts of resolving a shot can't be done at a zooming flyer if you aren't using Skyfire. (edit: without using the snap shot rules which forbid non-BS skills)

 Kevin949 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Both of you are hung up on the automatic hits element of Blood Lance and are missing the main point that you never shoot AT a zooming Flyer with Blood Lance.

You never resolve a shot AT a zooming Flyer with Blood Lance because you never shoot AT anything with Blood Lance. A 4d6 line is drawn in any direction and anything under the line suffers as str8 8 lance type hit.

And nothing says you have to shoot AT anything to require hard to hit or snap shot to come into play.

The rule for Hard to Hit does exactly that! It tells you when resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer right in the rule. Resolvijng a shot AT something is a defined process which specifically includes choosing a target, which Blood Lance never does. How else would you determine that a zooming flyer is being shot AT if it isn't targetted?

Look at the rule itself; it specifically points out that Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot HIT zooming Flyers. Without that clause, those weapons could hit a zooming Flyerbecause it never shot AT the zooming Flyer but instead could have been shot AT a unit right next to the zooming Flyer and then scattered onto the zooming Flyer thus hitting it without shooting AT it.. Notice that there is no such clause for Blood Lance or anything like Blood Lance?

As it stands, PSA or shooting attacks that do not shoot AT a zooming Flyer but can still hit it by some mechanic of their rules, do not trigger Snap Shots and hit the zooming Flyer.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Look at the rule itself; it specifically points out that Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot HIT zooming Flyers. Without that clause, those weapons could hit a zooming Flyerbecause it never shot AT the zooming Flyer but instead could have been shot AT a unit right next to the zooming Flyer and then scattered onto the zooming Flyer thus hitting it without shooting AT it.. Notice that there is no such clause for Blood Lance or anything like Blood Lance?

You are taking this totally out of context, that statement restricts a Blast weapon from ever hitting a Zooming flyer, it's not just about targetting a different unit and having it scatter. Even if a blast weapon had Skyfire and thus was not firing snap shots it is still totally and utterly unable to ever hit a Zooming Flyer. The reason it doesn't call out things like Blood Lance is because they can hit flyers, IF fired with Skyfire. If they don't have Skyfire though, they are unfortunately resolved as snapshots against the Flyer, and given they don't use Ballistic Skill no shot resolution is allowed to occur.

Well until there is a FAQ about it, the rule would stand that Flyers do not benefit from HtH for these line attacks. It states that any unit along the line suffers a hit. As it is currently worded, you could not DtW it either, since it does not target.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Both of you are hung up on the automatic hits element of Blood Lance and are missing the main point that you never shoot AT a zooming Flyer with Blood Lance.

You never resolve a shot AT a zooming Flyer with Blood Lance because you never shoot AT anything with Blood Lance. A 4d6 line is drawn in any direction and anything under the line suffers as str8 8 lance type hit.

And nothing says you have to shoot AT anything to require hard to hit or snap shot to come into play.

The rule for Hard to Hit does exactly that! It tells you when resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer right in the rule. Resolvijng a shot AT something is a defined process which specifically includes choosing a target, which Blood Lance never does. How else would you determine that a zooming flyer is being shot AT if it isn't targetted?

Look at the rule itself; it specifically points out that Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot HIT zooming Flyers. Without that clause, those weapons could hit a zooming Flyerbecause it never shot AT the zooming Flyer but instead could have been shot AT a unit right next to the zooming Flyer and then scattered onto the zooming Flyer thus hitting it without shooting AT it.. Notice that there is no such clause for Blood Lance or anything like Blood Lance?

As it stands, PSA or shooting attacks that do not shoot AT a zooming Flyer but can still hit it by some mechanic of their rules, do not trigger Snap Shots and hit the zooming Flyer.

Oh god, here we go again with the "target target target" thing.

Ya, there's a clause for blast and template weapons in there, great. They can't ever be fired as snap shots anyway and are outside this debate.

So, you say that blood lance skips a step in the requirement for resolving attacks but also because it skips that step it doesn't count as resolving an attack against a flyer? How do you not see that's incorrect?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
Well until there is a FAQ about it, the rule would stand that Flyers do not benefit from HtH for these line attacks. It states that any unit along the line suffers a hit. As it is currently worded, you could not DtW it either, since it does not target.

So...you're the authority on it pre-FAQ?

And this is where you show your misunderstanding or just plain ignorance of the rules Kevin949;

The Hard to Hit rule prevents Blast and Large Blast weapons from HITTING a zooming Flyer. The Snap Shot rule prevents you from FIRING a Blast weapon as a Snap Shot. A key difference that you fail to see.

The Hard to Hit rule tells you that Blast, Large Blast or Template weapons cannot hit a zooming Flyer because you could accidentally or intentionally place them so that they scatter onto or overlap onto a zooming Flyer without actually shooting at the zooming Flyer.

In regards to Blood Lance, it is neither a Template, Blast, or a Large Blast weapon. The 4d6 line can indeed be placed so that it hits a zooming Flyer without ever shooting AT said zooming Flyer. Without having ever shot AT a zooming Flyer, Blood Lance never triggers the Snap Shot rule prohibiting shooting attacks that automatically hit or that do not use BS.

That is the RAW argument that you cannot break.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
And this is where you show your misunderstanding or just plain ignorance of the rules Kevin949;

The Hard to Hit rule prevents Blast and Large Blast weapons from HITTING a zooming Flyer. The Snap Shot rule prevents you from FIRING a Blast weapon as a Snap Shot. A key difference that you fail to see.

The Hard to Hit rule tells you that Blast, Large Blast or Template weapons cannot hit a zooming Flyer because you could accidentally or intentionally place them so that they scatter onto or overlap onto a zooming Flyer without actually shooting at the zooming Flyer.

In regards to Blood Lance, it is neither a Template, Blast, or a Large Blast weapon. The 4d6 line can indeed be placed so that it hits a zooming Flyer without ever shooting AT said zooming Flyer. Without having ever shot AT a zooming Flyer, Blood Lance never triggers the Snap Shot rule prohibiting shooting attacks that automatically hit or that do not use BS.

That is the RAW argument that you cannot break.

Quite correct.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
The Hard to Hit rule prevents Blast and Large Blast weapons from HITTING a zooming Flyer. The Snap Shot rule prevents you from FIRING a Blast weapon as a Snap Shot. A key difference that you fail to see.

The Hard to Hit rule tells you that Blast, Large Blast or Template weapons cannot hit a zooming Flyer...

Everything you have said up to here is entirely reasonable

...because you could accidentally or intentionally place them so that they scatter onto or overlap onto a zooming Flyer without actually shooting at the zooming Flyer.

This is a baseless opinion, you have no idea why they wrote that rule, as I have already demonstrated it serves more purposes than just the one you claim because it also prevents things with skyfire from firing their blast weapons at flyers, despite them targetting the flyer itself.

It is not support for any RAW discussion and is barely even good support for a RAI discussion.

In regards to Blood Lance, it is neither a Template, Blast, or a Large Blast weapon. The 4d6 line can indeed be placed so that it hits a zooming Flyer without ever shooting AT said zooming Flyer.

But cannot damage the flyer at all without resolving the remainder of the shot at the Flyer, such as rolling to penetrate and rolling on the damage table etc.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
The Hard to Hit rule prevents Blast and Large Blast weapons from HITTING a zooming Flyer. The Snap Shot rule prevents you from FIRING a Blast weapon as a Snap Shot. A key difference that you fail to see.

The Hard to Hit rule tells you that Blast, Large Blast or Template weapons cannot hit a zooming Flyer...

Everything you have said up to here is entirely reasonable

...because you could accidentally or intentionally place them so that they scatter onto or overlap onto a zooming Flyer without actually shooting at the zooming Flyer.

This is a baseless opinion, you have no idea why they wrote that rule, as I have already demonstrated it serves more purposes than just the one you claim because it also prevents things with skyfire from firing their blast weapons at flyers, despite them targetting the flyer itself.

It is not support for any RAW discussion and is barely even good support for a RAI discussion.

In regards to Blood Lance, it is neither a Template, Blast, or a Large Blast weapon. The 4d6 line can indeed be placed so that it hits a zooming Flyer without ever shooting AT said zooming Flyer.

But cannot damage the flyer at all without resolving the remainder of the shot at the Flyer, such as rolling to penetrate and rolling on the damage table etc.

Care to show me a template, blast, or large blast weapon with Skyfire? The WHOLE point of Skyfire is to allow weapons to fire with using a normal BS instead of Snap Shot against FLYERS.

However, currently in-game you can shoot at one unit with a blast weapon, scatter onto a different unit, and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT. Or you could fire a template weapon on one unit and the template overlaps to a second unit behind the first and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT.

You want to try and accuse me of a baseless opinion by proposing a scnerio that not only DOESN'T EXIST, but also flies in the face of the rules intention whereas my opinion can and does regularly happen in game all the time. Honestly, you cannot possibly look anymore stupid with that argument.

And your are not resolving a shot at a flyer or what you calling, "the remainder of a shot" against a flyer. A hit does not make a shot, however a shot does make a hit. As I have pointed out with both the scenarios for blast and template weapons, as well as the rules for Blood Lance, units/models can indeed be hit, without having never been shot AT!

Just to add to your COMPLETELY baseless scenario of blast weapons with Skyfire; even if it did exist, MY OPINION WOULD STILL APPLY.

/facepalm

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Care to show me a template, blast, or large blast weapon with Skyfire? The WHOLE point of Skyfire is to allow weapons to fire with using a normal BS instead of Snap Shot against FLYERS.

Missiles on both Dark Eldar Flyers, Plasma Cannons on Storm Ravens, I think the Valkyrie/Vendetta both have blast missile systems too, oh and of course the Storm Talon. That enough Blast Skyfire for you?

However, currently in-game you can shoot at one unit with a blast weapon, scatter onto a different unit, and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT. Or you could fire a template weapon on one unit and the template overlaps to a second unit behind the first and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT.

Well you can without targetting it yes, you still have to resolve shots at it when you roll to wound etc.

You want to try and accuse me of a baseless opinion by proposing a scnerio that not only DOESN'T EXIST, but also flies in the face of the rules intention whereas my opinion can and does regularly happen in game all the time. Honestly, you cannot possibly look anymore stupid with that argument.

Hahah, pot meet kettle, maybe check your facts before tossing around names and accusations.

And your are not resolving a shot at a flyer or what you calling, "the remainder of a shot" against a flyer. A hit does not make a shot, however a shot does make a hit. As I have pointed out with both the scenarios for blast and template weapons, as well as the rules for Blood Lance, units/models can indeed be hit, without having never been shot AT!

A shot's resolution is more than just selecting a target, it's a series of steps. You cannot perform the later steps against a Zooming Flyer without Snap Firing.

Just to add to your COMPLETELY baseless scenario of blast weapons with Skyfire; even if it did exist, MY OPINION WOULD STILL APPLY.

you mean your opinion of the RAI? Yeah I can't refute your Opinion about RAI, of course, despite your opinion MY FACTS STILL APPLY REGARDING RAW.

It says under the flyer rules nothing about hitting against a flyer or even targetting a flyer. It says RESOLVED against a flier are snap shots. Sure it hits, in the process of resolving the shot against the flyer you now have to check the skyfire rules and the skyfire rules say auto hits can not affect the unit with snap fire.

What I don't understand is Blood lance doesn't roll to hit. So how can you all cry that you need to use snapfire when bloodlance does not roll to hit. It is not a regular shooting attack. It is a psychic power that causes 1 hit against everything in its path. It IS that simple, untill FAQd you cannot choose to apply a rule that does not apply to the particular attack in question as there is no place to apply it to. Stating that in this case you can't target a flyer with Blood lance at all is baseless as the weapons rules as currently written state that it causes 1 hit at str 8 to every target on the line with the only exception being units locked into hand to hand combat. Unless they add cannot target zooming flyers or something of the sort Blood Lance will still be able to hit flyers. Think of it as an intelligent warp missile. All that bein said you should still get a deny the witch roll against it, couldn't you also evade for a saving throw?

 Kevin949 wrote:
So...you're the authority on it pre-FAQ?

No. But if you read the rule it is quite simple. Your trying to interpret the snap shot / HtH section to justify why it shouldn't work, not why it doesn't work.

"Any enemy unit in the path suffers a S8 AP1 hit." There is no wiggle room in that sentence. No "resolve hits" or "needs Skyfire", no "under / over the line"(which technically doesn't exist)

The flyer takes a hit as well as everything not exempted by the Blood Lance rule.

A flyer is in the air so it isn't crossed by the path of the attack.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A flyer is in the air so it isn't crossed by the path of the attack.

Fluff != rules.

I'm not weighing in on either side of the argument, just observing that trying to use fluff in a rules debate is silly.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
What I don't understand is Blood lance doesn't roll to hit. So how can you all cry that you need to use snapfire when bloodlance does not roll to hit. It is not a regular shooting attack. It is a psychic power that causes 1 hit against everything in its path. It IS that simple, untill FAQd you cannot choose to apply a rule that does not apply to the particular attack in question as there is no place to apply it to. Stating that in this case you can't target a flyer with Blood lance at all is baseless as the weapons rules as currently written state that it causes 1 hit at str 8 to every target on the line with the only exception being units locked into hand to hand combat. Unless they add cannot target zooming flyers or something of the sort Blood Lance will still be able to hit flyers. Think of it as an intelligent warp missile. All that bein said you should still get a deny the witch roll against it, couldn't you also evade for a saving throw?

Snap Shots can't be used with any shooting attack that doesn't roll to hit using BS (in this case Blood Lance is one such attack) and shots can't effect Zooming Flyers unless they are resolved as Snap Shots, so Blood Lance can't affect Zooming Flyers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A flyer is in the air so it isn't crossed by the path of the attack.

Fluff != rules.

I'm not weighing in on either side of the argument, just observing that trying to use fluff in a rules debate is silly.

He is correct in that, the line drawn from the lance has to pass through units to affect them, meaning in the case of a flyer it must be drawn up into the sky (not that I believe it would effect them anyway, but a similar situation happens with Eldar Vibro Cannons which can effect Flyers since they roll to hit).

It's not like the Doom Scythe's Death Ray which affects everything under it.

Of course, it appears Dozer seems to think that the line has to be drawn along the table, which I do not agree with.

That may well be RAI Dozer, but as its currently written the Flyer is still "in the path of the line". Death Ray states anything the line touches, which using pg 80 of the Flyer rules you can make an argument why it shouldnt hit the Flyer, since the base is effectively ignored. But Blood Lance is written far more generically. The Flyer is in the path (direction) of the line and therefore gets hit. Snapshots and HtH have nothing to do with it.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A flyer is in the air so it isn't crossed by the path of the attack.

Fluff != rules.

I'm not weighing in on either side of the argument, just observing that trying to use fluff in a rules debate is silly.

It actually "is" a rule, flyers are above the battlefield, not on it.

It only hits units on the ground.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:


However, currently in-game you can shoot at one unit with a blast weapon, scatter onto a different unit, and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT. Or you could fire a template weapon on one unit and the template overlaps to a second unit behind the first and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT.

I would just like to point out that you ARE shooting "at" the second unit with that template/blast weapon, but they are not the target. There *is* a difference.

And yes, you're right, you're not firing a blood as a snap shot, but hard to hit does not require you to FIRE as a snap shot, it requires you to RESOLVE as a snap shot. And if you can not resolve all parts of the hit as a snap shot, you can not hit what you shot at.

Support that with rules Dozer.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It only hits units on the ground.

Unfortunately, if the rules quote earlier was indeed correct (though it was snipped), it just says "in any direction" and not "on the battlefield". But those rules were written for a 2d space so it's just assumed it's "on the ground". Also, if it was "on the ground" then nothing would ever be under the line, but that is obviously not true.

That said, it still can't hit a flier without skyfire.

Okay I see it does say path not units on the ground. I agree with DS though in regards to it not working due to snapfire - skyfire otherwise rune priests could JotWW assaulting enemy units.

"Extend a straight line, 4d6" long, from the Librarian's base in any direction -- this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any enemy unit in the path suffers a single S8, AP 1 hit with the Lance type. Friendly units, and enemy units locked in close combat, are unaffected-- the lance darts over them before continuing on its course."


Automatic hits skip the entire "to hit" process and hence, Skyfire or HtH would have no effect on Blood Lance. It goes straight to wounding or penetrating.

It does, since the shot cannot be resolved.

The hits could happen, but the shot cannot be resolved.

The shot was not targeted at a flyer, but that isn't what the restriction states - it states that shots can only be resolved as snap shots; blood lance cannot be resolved as a snap shot.

As a PSA, it is a shot being resolved against a flyer regardless of its target.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Care to show me a template, blast, or large blast weapon with Skyfire? The WHOLE point of Skyfire is to allow weapons to fire with using a normal BS instead of Snap Shot against FLYERS.

Missiles on both Dark Eldar Flyers, Plasma Cannons on Storm Ravens, I think the Valkyrie/Vendetta both have blast missile systems too, oh and of course the Storm Talon. That enough Blast Skyfire for you?

However, currently in-game you can shoot at one unit with a blast weapon, scatter onto a different unit, and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT. Or you could fire a template weapon on one unit and the template overlaps to a second unit behind the first and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT.

Well you can without targetting it yes, you still have to resolve shots at it when you roll to wound etc.

You want to try and accuse me of a baseless opinion by proposing a scnerio that not only DOESN'T EXIST, but also flies in the face of the rules intention whereas my opinion can and does regularly happen in game all the time. Honestly, you cannot possibly look anymore stupid with that argument.

Hahah, pot meet kettle, maybe check your facts before tossing around names and accusations.

And your are not resolving a shot at a flyer or what you calling, "the remainder of a shot" against a flyer. A hit does not make a shot, however a shot does make a hit. As I have pointed out with both the scenarios for blast and template weapons, as well as the rules for Blood Lance, units/models can indeed be hit, without having never been shot AT!

A shot's resolution is more than just selecting a target, it's a series of steps. You cannot perform the later steps against a Zooming Flyer without Snap Firing.

Just to add to your COMPLETELY baseless scenario of blast weapons with Skyfire; even if it did exist, MY OPINION WOULD STILL APPLY.

you mean your opinion of the RAI? Yeah I can't refute your Opinion about RAI, of course, despite your opinion MY FACTS STILL APPLY REGARDING RAW.

Good, you found some blast weapons with Skyfire. Now how exactly does that invalidate my baseless opinion when it STILL applies to blast weapons and templates that accidentally scatter or are intentional placed to HIT a zooming Flyer? The rule still prevents them from hitting the zooming Flyer despite them not having SHOT at the zooming Flyer.

And resolvong a shot is a defined process per the BRB. Resolving one element of said process does not suddenly make it that you have done the entire process. I have already shown you two specific circumstances where you can hit something that you never shot at.

You keep ignoring the RAW of Hard to Hit and gloss over it to rush into the rules for Snap Shot to quickly shout out that shooting attacks that do not use BS or hit automatically cannot be snap shot. However the verbatim of Hard to Hit is specific in that the trigger to Snap Shot is in resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer. Resolving a shot AT anything is a defined process, the key one in this debate of declaring a target of the shot, which Blood Lance does not do.

If Blood Lance was worded like the JotWW FAQ, then you would be correct because then it would be resolving a shot AT a defined target. However, Blood Lance declares no target, it merely hit whatever it passes over in its 4d6 direction, which would include zooming Flyers because you never shot AT the zooming Flyer thus triggering the rules for Snap Fire.

Simple set of questions,

1. Did Blood Lance shoot AT the zooming Flyer? If it didn't shoot AT a zooming Flyer, how are your resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer?

2. Did Blood Lance HIT a zooming Flyer? If it HIT a zooming Flyer, are you resolving a shot AT the zooming Flyer or are you resolving a HIT of the zooming Flyer?

If it hits automatically resolution has already occurred yes?

Furthermore the Codex trumps the rulebook in the first place. Would not the specific rules for the psychic power trump anything in the BRB period that came into conflict with it?

 Kevin949 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:


However, currently in-game you can shoot at one unit with a blast weapon, scatter onto a different unit, and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT. Or you could fire a template weapon on one unit and the template overlaps to a second unit behind the first and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT.

I would just like to point out that you ARE shooting "at" the second unit with that template/blast weapon, but they are not the target. There *is* a difference.

And yes, you're right, you're not firing a blood as a snap shot, but hard to hit does not require you to FIRE as a snap shot, it requires you to RESOLVE as a snap shot. And if you can not resolve all parts of the hit as a snap shot, you can not hit what you shot at.

Wrong.

In Warhammer 40k, shooting is a defined process in which a target is selected and fired upon. That target is considered to have been shot at per the defined shooting process of the rules. You may HIT other targets in some circumstances as I outlined with regard to scattering blast and template overlap, but per the defined shooting process of Warhammer 40k, you did not shoot AT those targets.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Furthermore the Codex trumps the rulebook in the first place. Would not the specific rules for the psychic power trump anything in the BRB period that came into conflict with it?

Entirely incorrect.

Specific trumps general. If nothing is contradicted, nothing is trumped.

Nothing in Blood lance contradicts the main rules. - in this case.

Blood lance cannot be resolved via snap shot.

 kirsanth wrote:
It does, since the shot cannot be resolved.

The hits could happen, but the shot cannot be resolved.

The shot was not targeted at a flyer, but that isn't what the restriction states - it states that shots can only be resolved as snap shots; blood lance cannot be resolved as a snap shot.

As a PSA, it is a shot being resolved against a flyer regardless of its target.

No, because shooting is a defined process in Warhammer 40k. And the restriction is prefaced specifically by the defined process of shooting AT a zooming flyer. Seriously, you people just gloss over that specific wording to jump at the chance to quote the Snap Shot rules.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:


However, currently in-game you can shoot at one unit with a blast weapon, scatter onto a different unit, and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT. Or you could fire a template weapon on one unit and the template overlaps to a second unit behind the first and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT.

I would just like to point out that you ARE shooting "at" the second unit with that template/blast weapon, but they are not the target. There *is* a difference.

And yes, you're right, you're not firing a blood as a snap shot, but hard to hit does not require you to FIRE as a snap shot, it requires you to RESOLVE as a snap shot. And if you can not resolve all parts of the hit as a snap shot, you can not hit what you shot at.

Wrong.

In Warhammer 40k, shooting is a defined process in which a target is selected and fired upon. That target is considered to have been shot at per the defined shooting process of the rules. You may HIT other targets in some circumstances as I outlined with regard to scattering blast and template overlap, but per the defined shooting process of Warhammer 40k, you did not shoot AT those targets.

Well in that case I claim that your blood lance is shooting "at" every unit it hits. *Shrug*

Let me ask you, if you use blood lance and you hit an IC first and 3" behind him is a squad of whatever, you kill the IC...can you assault the squad?

Hard to Hit only does anything against shots at the zooming flier (since we're not concerned with templates and blasts in this argument).

Blood Lance and Vibro Cannons are only arguably shots of any kind; they are definitely not shots at the flier. (Specifically, vibro cannons are allowed to hit absolutely anything, even intentionally hitting your own guys).

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:
It does, since the shot cannot be resolved.

The hits could happen, but the shot cannot be resolved.

The shot was not targeted at a flyer, but that isn't what the restriction states - it states that shots can only be resolved as snap shots; blood lance cannot be resolved as a snap shot.

As a PSA, it is a shot being resolved against a flyer regardless of its target.

No, because shooting is a defined process in Warhammer 40k. And the restriction is prefaced specifically by the defined process of shooting AT a zooming flyer. Seriously, you people just gloss over that specific wording to jump at the chance to quote the Snap Shot rules.

"everything" is a defined process in 40k. Each process has it's place. You're using the wrong one for this place.

Well in that case I claim that your blood lance is shooting "at" every unit it hits. *Shrug*

The rules do not state this however. Your claim is irrelevant.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:

Well in that case I claim that your blood lance is shooting "at" every unit it hits. *Shrug*

The rules do not state this however. Your claim is irrelevant.

Does the rule state it doesn't have a target? Is there an FAQ for it similar to JoTWW? Or does it work like the doom scythe where the second weapon can hit "any target" the doom scythe hit? (Which keep in mind, there is no mention of requiring a target for the death ray either).

 kirsanth wrote:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Furthermore the Codex trumps the rulebook in the first place. Would not the specific rules for the psychic power trump anything in the BRB period that came into conflict with it?

Entirely incorrect.

Specific trumps general. If nothing is contradicted, nothing is trumped.

Nothing in Blood lance contradicts the main rules. - in this case.

Blood lance cannot be resolved via snap shot.

Blood Lance NEVER triggers Snap Shot because you are NEVER resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer. You resolve a HIT against a zooming Flyer, but you NEVER resolve a shot AT a zooming Flyer.

To make a play on your last post,

As a PSA, you are resolving a HIT on a zooming Flyer from a shot.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Furthermore the Codex trumps the rulebook in the first place. Would not the specific rules for the psychic power trump anything in the BRB period that came into conflict with it?

Entirely incorrect.

Specific trumps general. If nothing is contradicted, nothing is trumped.

Nothing in Blood lance contradicts the main rules. - in this case.

Blood lance cannot be resolved via snap shot.

Blood Lance NEVER triggers Snap Shot because you are NEVER resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer. You resolve a HIT against a zooming Flyer, but you NEVER resolve a shot AT a zooming Flyer.

To make a play on your last post,

As a PSA, you are resolving a HIT on a zooming Flyer from a shot.

And auto hits don't work without skyfire.

See how we came full circle? This is ridiculous.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:


However, currently in-game you can shoot at one unit with a blast weapon, scatter onto a different unit, and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT. Or you could fire a template weapon on one unit and the template overlaps to a second unit behind the first and hit that second unit WITHOUT HAVING NEVER SHOT AT IT.

I would just like to point out that you ARE shooting "at" the second unit with that template/blast weapon, but they are not the target. There *is* a difference.

And yes, you're right, you're not firing a blood as a snap shot, but hard to hit does not require you to FIRE as a snap shot, it requires you to RESOLVE as a snap shot. And if you can not resolve all parts of the hit as a snap shot, you can not hit what you shot at.

Wrong.

In Warhammer 40k, shooting is a defined process in which a target is selected and fired upon. That target is considered to have been shot at per the defined shooting process of the rules. You may HIT other targets in some circumstances as I outlined with regard to scattering blast and template overlap, but per the defined shooting process of Warhammer 40k, you did not shoot AT those targets.

Well in that case I claim that your blood lance is shooting "at" every unit it hits. *Shrug*

Let me ask you, if you use blood lance and you hit an IC first and 3" behind him is a squad of whatever, you kill the IC...can you assault the squad?

Per the BA FAQ, you can only assault the first unit that Blood Lance hit.

And auto hits don't work without skyfire.

Could you quote the relevant rule entry for this line.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:

And auto hits don't work without skyfire.

Could you quote the relevant rule entry for this line.

BRB page 13 wrote:It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot.

I believe that's the rule he's referring to.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
As a PSA, you are resolving a HIT on a zooming Flyer from a shot.

A hit from a shot, which cannot be resolved.

A psychic shooting attack's hits are shot, as is every shooting attack in the game.

This debate would be valid regarding JotWW if it did not specify that it's on the battlefield.
Not a PSA, however.

Thank you sir /salute


So...how does that rule regarding snapfire invalidate this

The Hard to Hit rule prevents Blast and Large Blast weapons from HITTING a zooming Flyer. The Snap Shot rule prevents you from FIRING a Blast weapon as a Snap Shot. A key difference that you fail to see.

The Hard to Hit rule tells you that Blast, Large Blast or Template weapons cannot hit a zooming Flyer because you could accidentally or intentionally place them so that they scatter onto or overlap onto a zooming Flyer without actually shooting at the zooming Flyer.

In regards to Blood Lance, it is neither a Template, Blast, or a Large Blast weapon. The 4d6 line can indeed be placed so that it hits a zooming Flyer without ever shooting AT said zooming Flyer. Without having ever shot AT a zooming Flyer, Blood Lance never triggers the Snap Shot rule prohibiting shooting attacks that automatically hit or that do not use BS.

Also, does not the codex overule any of this making this discussion rather pointless? As I understand it If we come into conflict with anything in the BRB against a codex the codex wins, period.

So why the confusion?

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:

And auto hits don't work without skyfire.

Could you quote the relevant rule entry for this line.

Well I should have said against flyers, sorry. More accurately I should say that since it doesn't use BS it can't hit a flyer without skyfire.

Anywho, I'm tired. Moving on. Have fun.

And auto hits don't work without skyfire.

See how we came full circle? This is ridiculous.

Its only ridiculous if your arguing that their is a shooting involved. There is no shooting. You are not resolving a shot. There are no dice rolled. There is only a S8 hit to each unit in the path.

If a flyer is in the path, it suffers a hit.

If the rule said "roll to hit vs every unit in the path." Your argument would stand. But autohits skip to the wound/penetration step.

Your arguing a process that blood lance skips.

Fragile wrote:
Its only ridiculous if your arguing that their is a shooting involved. There is no shooting.

A Psychic Shooting Attack is indeed Psychicly Shooting Attacks at things.

rigeld2 wrote:

BRB page 13 wrote:It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot.

I believe that's the rule he's referring to.

Indeed that's a rule. It also doesn't stop Blood Lances or Vibro Cannons from hitting Fliers.

Zooming Fliers only require shots at them to be Snap Shots. Neither of those are shots at them.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Zooming Fliers only require shots at them to be Snap Shots. Neither of those are shots at them.

No, it doesn't.
Nothing in the rules requires the shots to be at them.
Only that they are resolved against them.

You are indeed trying to resolve a shot that automatically hits them without using BS.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Thank you sir /salute


So...how does that rule regarding snapfire invalidate this

The Hard to Hit rule prevents Blast and Large Blast weapons from HITTING a zooming Flyer. The Snap Shot rule prevents you from FIRING a Blast weapon as a Snap Shot. A key difference that you fail to see.

The Hard to Hit rule tells you that Blast, Large Blast or Template weapons cannot hit a zooming Flyer because you could accidentally or intentionally place them so that they scatter onto or overlap onto a zooming Flyer without actually shooting at the zooming Flyer.

In regards to Blood Lance, it is neither a Template, Blast, or a Large Blast weapon. The 4d6 line can indeed be placed so that it hits a zooming Flyer without ever shooting AT said zooming Flyer. Without having ever shot AT a zooming Flyer, Blood Lance never triggers the Snap Shot rule prohibiting shooting attacks that automatically hit or that do not use BS.

Also, does not the codex overule any of this making this discussion rather pointless? As I understand it If we come into conflict with anything in the BRB against a codex the codex wins, period.

So why the confusion?

Well either way the rules actually just make a point that template, ordnance, blast, etc are just examples of what can't snap shot. It would have been nice if they had been more clear on this whole situation.

Actually a great example of a conflict would be the blood lance itself. If you look at the rule book it says "there is no such thing as an automatic hit" but the blood lance "automatically hits". THAT is a rulebook vs. codex conflict where the codex wins.

 kirsanth wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
As a PSA, you are resolving a HIT on a zooming Flyer from a shot.

A hit from a shot, which cannot be resolved.

A psychic shooting attack's hits are shot, as is every shooting attack in the game.

This debate would be valid regarding JotWW if it did not specify that it's on the battlefield.
Not a PSA, however.

Resolving a hit from a shot is resolving at hit from a shot. Not argement there at all. However Hard to Hit places the trigger on resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer, which Blood Lance never does.

I could place Blood Lance so that it passes over a tactical squad, a Rhino, and a zooming Flyer.

Did I shoot AT the tactical squad per the defined rules for shooting? No.
Did I shoot AT the Rhino per the defined rules for shooting? No.
Did I shoot AT the zooming Flyer per the defined rules for shooting? No.

All three are HIT, but Blood Lance did not shoot AT any of them. That is just how Blood Lance works being an exception to the gerneral rules for shooting attacks as a PSA.

 kirsanth wrote:
No, it doesn't.
Nothing in the rules requires the shots to be at them.
Only that they are resolved against them.

You are indeed trying to resolve a shot that automatically hits them without using BS.

If it hits automatically resolution has already occurred yes?

The process of resolving is rolling to hit yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Thank you sir /salute


So...how does that rule regarding snapfire invalidate this

The Hard to Hit rule prevents Blast and Large Blast weapons from HITTING a zooming Flyer. The Snap Shot rule prevents you from FIRING a Blast weapon as a Snap Shot. A key difference that you fail to see.

The Hard to Hit rule tells you that Blast, Large Blast or Template weapons cannot hit a zooming Flyer because you could accidentally or intentionally place them so that they scatter onto or overlap onto a zooming Flyer without actually shooting at the zooming Flyer.

In regards to Blood Lance, it is neither a Template, Blast, or a Large Blast weapon. The 4d6 line can indeed be placed so that it hits a zooming Flyer without ever shooting AT said zooming Flyer. Without having ever shot AT a zooming Flyer, Blood Lance never triggers the Snap Shot rule prohibiting shooting attacks that automatically hit or that do not use BS.

Also, does not the codex overule any of this making this discussion rather pointless? As I understand it If we come into conflict with anything in the BRB against a codex the codex wins, period.

So why the confusion?

Well either way the rules actually just make a point that template, ordnance, blast, etc are just examples of what can't snap shot. It would have been nice if they had been more clear on this whole situation.

Actually a great example of a conflict would be the blood lance itself. If you look at the rule book it says "there is no such thing as an automatic hit" but the blood lance "automatically hits". THAT is a rulebook vs. codex conflict where the codex wins.

So you conceed my point entirely then that codex trumps. You did not refute it with your reply.

 kirsanth wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Zooming Fliers only require shots at them to be Snap Shots. Neither of those are shots at them.

No, it doesn't.
Nothing in the rules requires the shots to be at them.
Only that they are resolved against them.

You are indeed trying to resolve a shot that automatically hits them without using BS.

Check the Hard to Hit rule again Kirsanth. It specifically say resolving shots AT a zooming Flyer, not against a zooming Flyer.

 kirsanth wrote:

You are indeed trying to resolve a shot that automatically hits them without using BS.

Sure am. But that's not covered by Hard to Hit. Hard to Hit only cares about shots at the flier. Not shots in general, or shots that aren't at anything.

Hard to Hit only cares about shots that go something of the sort like:
1. I'm shooting this weapon which is not a blast or template.
2. I'm shooting it at that Flier.

Blood Lance and Vibro cannons are never part 2 there.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:



So you conceed my point entirely then that codex trumps. You did not refute it with your reply.

In certain situations, yes. But this is not one of them as you have two, maybe three core book rules and one codex rule that are all kind of in conflict with another, so it's not really the same at all.

"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots" is not "Shots targeted at a zooming flyer. . . ."

The PSA is trying to resolve a shot at a zooming flyer without using Snap Shots.

We all agree it is not targeting, nor is it worrying about hitting, and those are parts of resolving a shot?

In certain situations, yes. But this is not one of them as you have two, maybe three core book rules and one codex rule that are all kind of in conflict with another, so it's not really the same at all.

When a codex rule and the BRB rule come into conflict what does the BRB say happens?

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
When a codex rule and the BRB rule come into conflict what does the BRB say happens?

I am guessing this is going to lead you to the conclusion Mob Rule lets Ork LD go over 10?

Codex trumps BRB, there is no roll to hit, as such Blood Lance hits flyers normally.

This is a GOOD thing.

1) Blood Lance is less effective in most of these scenarios because it will only be hitting 1 flyer typically instead of a vehicular gunline.
2) Why do people want it to be fething impossible to kill flyers? Skyfire and massive shot volume should not be the only solution.

I am guessing this is going to lead you to the conclusion Mob Rule lets Ork LD go over 10?

Red herring. Try again.

This discussion involves the interactions and interpretations of the rules involving the blood lance. If you'd like to make a separate discussion on Ork mechanics start a new thread.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
This discussion involves the interactions and interpretations of the rules involving the blood lance. If you'd like to make a separate discussion on Ork mechanics start a new thread.

Not at all. You are trying to state that things that do not mention each other conflict.

The Ork example is actually better than yours, as in that case it can conflict.
And the main rules win.

In this case, saying it auto hits means it does just that, auto hits.
But the shot cannot be resolved against a zooming flyer because those auto-hits did not use BS, let alone snap shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amaya wrote:
This is a GOOD thing.

If you say so. I am less concerned with good and bad; I am focusing on right and wrong.

 kirsanth wrote:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
This discussion involves the interactions and interpretations of the rules involving the blood lance. If you'd like to make a separate discussion on Ork mechanics start a new thread.

Not at all. You are trying to state that things that do not mention each other conflict.

The Ork example is actually better than yours, as in that case it can conflict.
And the main rules win.

In this case, saying it auto hits means it does just that, auto hits.
But the shot cannot be resolved against a zooming flyer because those auto-hits did not use BS, let alone snap shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amaya wrote:
This is a GOOD thing.

If you say so. I am less concerned with good and bad; I am focusing on right and wrong.

You contradict yourself. That would be a clear conflict.

There is no contradiction.

Even if you autohit and get S8 AP1 Lance hits, you cannot finish resolving the shot without breaking rules.

resolving the shot without breaking rules.

Which would be a conflict! Hence you refer to what rule in the BRB when such a conflict arrives?

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
Which would be a conflict!

No it isn't.

Read the Shooting Phase rules.

So your assertion here is that the autohit cannot be resolved so it does not infact hit and that you see no conflict in this?

Is that correct?

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:

resolving the shot without breaking rules.

Which would be a conflict! Hence you refer to what rule in the BRB when such a conflict arrives?

No, a conflict would be "All PSAs require a roll to hit." vs the Codex FAQ that says Blood Lance does not require a roll to hit.

 kirsanth wrote:
"Shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots" is not "Shots targeted at a zooming flyer. . . ."

The PSA is trying to resolve a shot at a zooming flyer without using Snap Shots.

We all agree it is not targeting, nor is it worrying about hitting, and those are parts of resolving a shot?

Shot resolution is a defined process that includes targetting a model. You cannot sit here and throw the defined shooting process under the bus when convenient.

Parts of the defined shooting process, but not the shooting process, namely declaring the Flyer as the target of the shot. If you never declared the zooming Flyer as the target of the PSA, per the shooting process of Warhammer 40k, you are NOT shooting AT the zooming Flyer. The PSA may hit the zooming Flyer, but that does not inherently mean that you shot AT the zooming Flyer.

I showed how the Hard to Hit rule clearly specifies instances where it does not allow zooming Flyers to accidentally or intentionally be hit by blast or template weapons without being shot AT and Blood Lance does not fall under any of those inclusions.

The codex also states it hits automatically. there is zero mention of selecting a target. Zero mention of resolving shooting AT a target as well.

The attack simply draws a line and strikes those that fall under it. Automatically. Nothing in that is vague.

Anything that would disallow this is by definition coming into conflict with the stated mechanics of the attack itself. There is no way around this.

The shooting phase does not end with hitting, neither does resolving shots.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
The codex also states it hits automatically. there is zero mention of selecting a target.

FAQ fixes that problem (indirectly, but it does). The target is the first unit hit.

Zero mention of resolving shooting AT a target as well.

Great! So we don't resolve the shooting attack then. Codex trumps BRB after all, and no permission to resolve the shooting attack means it doesn't get done. Glad we cleared that up.

See the problem with "CODEX ALWAYS WINS BLARG"?
You must fall back to the BRB in some situations.

Ah selective reading

The attack simply draws a line and strikes those that fall under it. Automatically. Nothing in that is vague.

Anything that would disallow this is by definition coming into conflict with the stated mechanics of the attack itself. There is no way around this.

Page 15, main rules:
"When the Wound pool is empty, the shooting attack has been completely resolved."

Until you get to that stage, you are still resolving it.
Illegally, in this case.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
The codex also states it hits automatically. there is zero mention of selecting a target.

FAQ fixes that problem (indirectly, but it does). The target is the first unit hit.

Blood Lance has no such FAQ entry. You're probably thinking of Jaws.

 kirsanth wrote:
The shooting phase does not end with hitting, neither does resolving shots.

No it doesn't, however when you are not resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer in the first place that does not matter.

Kirsanth, look to the recent Deny the Witch versus JotWW debate.

In that debate it was asked whether or not units hit AFTER the initial unit were allowed Deny the Witch rolls. It was determined that due to the FAQ telling you that the first unit affected by the power is the target unit, only that first unit is allowed a Deny the Witch roll.

In this instance, you do not have a target unit. The rules for Blood Lance never have you declaring a target nor treating a unit as a target. Resolving a hit from Blood Lance is resolving part of the defined shot process of a PSA. However, it is not resolving a shot AT a zooming Flyer which the rules for Hard to Hit specifically outline as the trigger to enact the Snap Shot rules.

Resolving a shot at a flyer still does not require targeting a flyer, or even shooting at one.
No matter how many times people assert it.

Double post. Oops.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
The codex also states it hits automatically. there is zero mention of selecting a target.

FAQ fixes that problem (indirectly, but it does). The target is the first unit hit.

Blood Lance has no such FAQ entry. You're probably thinking of Jaws.

I'm sure you read the word "indirectly".

BRB page 20 wrote:In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's Shooting phase.

With that quote plus the statement in the BA FAQ saying that the unit can only assault the first unit hit, that means that's the target unit.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
The codex also states it hits automatically. there is zero mention of selecting a target.

FAQ fixes that problem (indirectly, but it does). The target is the first unit hit.

Blood Lance has no such FAQ entry. You're probably thinking of Jaws.

It states only the first unit hit can be assaulted and you can only assault a unit that you targeted in the shooting phase if you shoot...so, there's that.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
The codex also states it hits automatically. there is zero mention of selecting a target.

FAQ fixes that problem (indirectly, but it does). The target is the first unit hit.

Blood Lance has no such FAQ entry. You're probably thinking of Jaws.

I'm sure you read the word "indirectly".

BRB page 20 wrote:In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's Shooting phase.

With that quote plus the statement in the BA FAQ saying that the unit can only assault the first unit hit, that means that's the target unit.

Nice attempt at a leap of logic, but it is flawed.

As Blood Lance has the ability to hit multiple units without targetting any of them a FAQ was needed to determine which of multiple units hit were eligible to be assaulted. Nothing more, nothing less. To insinuate that Blood Lance targets somethings by being able to assault it after hitting it it with Blood Lance is all types of wishful thinking.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
The codex also states it hits automatically. there is zero mention of selecting a target.

FAQ fixes that problem (indirectly, but it does). The target is the first unit hit.

Blood Lance has no such FAQ entry. You're probably thinking of Jaws.

I'm sure you read the word "indirectly".

BRB page 20 wrote:In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's Shooting phase.

With that quote plus the statement in the BA FAQ saying that the unit can only assault the first unit hit, that means that's the target unit.

Nice attempt at a leap of logic, but it is flawed.

As Blood Lance has the ability to hit multiple units without targetting any of them a FAQ was needed to determine which of multiple units hit were eligible to be assaulted. Nothing more, nothing less. To insinuate that Blood Lance targets somethings by being able to assault it after hitting it it with Blood Lance is all types of wishful thinking.

You need to remember the FAQ is a rules clarification, not a change to the rule. It's not flawed logic if it's the way it works.

Apples are not oranges my friend.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
The codex also states it hits automatically. there is zero mention of selecting a target.

FAQ fixes that problem (indirectly, but it does). The target is the first unit hit.

Blood Lance has no such FAQ entry. You're probably thinking of Jaws.

I'm sure you read the word "indirectly".

BRB page 20 wrote:In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's Shooting phase.

With that quote plus the statement in the BA FAQ saying that the unit can only assault the first unit hit, that means that's the target unit.

Nice attempt at a leap of logic, but it is flawed.

As Blood Lance has the ability to hit multiple units without targetting any of them a FAQ was needed to determine which of multiple units hit were eligible to be assaulted. Nothing more, nothing less. To insinuate that Blood Lance targets somethings by being able to assault it after hitting it it with Blood Lance is all types of wishful thinking.

You need to remember the FAQ is a rules clarification, not a change to the rule. It's not flawed logic if it's the way it works.

Your right, it is a rules clarification on how you determine which of multiple units hit by Blood Lance you are then allowed to assault. The answer being the first unit hit by Blood Lance.

Nothing about that unit being the target unit.
Nothing about Blood Lance having a target.

Like I said, a faulty leap of logic.

This sentence says it pretty clearly. "shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots."

Page 81, under hard to hit.

Now one persons argument here is that they didnt target the flyer. Fine if you didnt target it then wht are you arguing its hit you didnt aim it at the flyer. No where under hard to hit does it mention TARGETING anywhere in the hard to hit paragraph. Since the blood lance hit everything in its path with the exceptions it has written you must resolve them hits as well though you didnt target them.

Auto hits do not hit a zooming flyer.

However if you wanted to roll a perils test and them roll to hit and hit with a 6 Id let you hit my flyer. You know perfectly well that rule was written before snap fire, hard to hit and zooming flyers, so since it is not addressed in the blood angels codex nor the FAQ you have to use the only rules written for them 3 rules and thats the BRB.

Well, I guess Vibro Cannons don't really belong in the same category as Blood Lance, they do roll to hit using their BS. So the two aren't really the same.

Of course, they don't roll to hit fliers or anyone else, so if their line is going through a flier, the flier is hit.

 kirsanth wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Its only ridiculous if your arguing that their is a shooting involved. There is no shooting.

A Psychic Shooting Attack is indeed Psychicly Shooting Attacks at things.

Indeed, then what BS does it use to hit all those nonflyers ??

DarknessEternal wrote:Well, I guess Vibro Cannons don't really belong in the same category as Blood Lance, they do roll to hit using their BS. So the two aren't really the same.

Of course, they don't roll to hit fliers or anyone else, so if their line is going through a flier, the flier is hit.

This is why I have avoided equating the two. Much like JotWW and other things, they have their own, different, rules.

Fragile wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Its only ridiculous if your arguing that their is a shooting involved. There is no shooting.

A Psychic Shooting Attack is indeed Psychicly Shooting Attacks at things.

Indeed, then what BS does it use to hit all those nonflyers ??

Happy you see the issue.

Lungpickle wrote:
This sentence says it pretty clearly. "shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots."

Page 81, under hard to hit.

Now one persons argument here is that they didnt target the flyer. Fine if you didnt target it then wht are you arguing its hit you didnt aim it at the flyer. No where under hard to hit does it mention TARGETING anywhere in the hard to hit paragraph. Since the blood lance hit everything in its path with the exceptions it has written you must resolve them hits as well though you didnt target them.

Auto hits do not hit a zooming flyer.

However if you wanted to roll a perils test and them roll to hit and hit with a 6 Id let you hit my flyer. You know perfectly well that rule was written before snap fire, hard to hit and zooming flyers, so since it is not addressed in the blood angels codex nor the FAQ you have to use the only rules written for them 3 rules and thats the BRB.

I am not saying you are wrong. I am going to say that because of poor grammar, I can not understand what you were trying to say.

Let me see if I can try to explain how I see the order of operations. Let me know where I am making a mistake


1.Cast blood lance successfully
2.Nominate a direction and roll
3.All models under the line are eligible to be hit by the power
4.They are now considered to be automatically hit
5.They are then wounded/armor pened as normal

Actually now that I look more closely RAW is that the snap shot rule prevents something from firing not from resolving damage. "May not be fired as snap shots" However in this situation it has already been fired. However in this situation, since it has already been fired, even though snap shots kick in there is no effect as it kicks in after the thing it would prevent has already occurred. It can't retroactively prevent the individual from firing as that is what snap shots does, not prevent them from resolving damage.

However having said that I would argue that if you wanted the blood lance to hit the flier it would have to be aimed skyward and would not hit anything along the ground. In the power it says nominate a direction and measure from the base. It says nothing about along the table or even a point(like the death ray/Jaws). If you fire it along the ground the flyer is never in its path. I suppose the same thing could be argued for skimmers, however they are usually not high enough off the ground that troops on the ground would not get hit.

Although it is difficult concept to understand this is definately a 3D game(especially with the introduction of things like true line of sight) and if we can look at it as a 3D issue than I think it can work.

If I may folks. Some things need to be cleared up with the Power itself first off.

Pg 63 Blood Angels Codex wrote:
The Blood Lance
The Librarian conjures a mighty lance, glistening with gore. On a single word of command, the lance flies from his hands, skewering everything in its own path.

This power is a psychic shooting attack. Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarian's base in any direction - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type. Friendly units, and enemy units locked in close combat, are unaffected - the lance darts over them before continuing on its course.

Ok, theres the elephant in the room. Theres one FaQ question that is prevalent to this situation though:

Pg 4 Blood Angels Codex FaQ wrote:
Q: As Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack, does it need to roll To Hit? (p63)
A: No.

Ok, lookin good so far. For those that are Anti-side, leme give ya one here:

Pg 13 BRB Roll to Hit, third paragraph wrote:
Note that the minimum roll needed To Hit is always at least 2. When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit and a roll of a 1 always misses (or, at the very least will need re-rolling - see below). If several weapons have different Strengths, special rules or AP values, use different coloured dice or roll them separately.

Alright, theres a pretty obvious conflict ion of rules as the BRB says nothing auto-hits and this Psyker power doesnt have to roll to hit at all. Not bad so far. That will prevent the Flier from taking Evade, so thats pretty cool. Lets move on now in this situation.

That Blood Angel Priest is about to throw this lance here and hes set up the line to go over two Necron Immortal units fully staffed and one Night Scythe. Now the Priest expends his charge and passes his test to use the power. Beam goes its full 24" range and hits all three units. Outstanding! Lets resolve those shots.

Theres nothing that the Immortals have that will save them from taking the STR8 AP1 shot. One model will most likely be going down as its going to wound it on a 2+. Lets move on to the flier. It does have something that we need to cover here before we can finish resolving this Psychic Shooting Attack on it.

Pg 81 BRB wrote:
Hard To Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42). Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode.

Right. This here is where the Blood Lance argument will fall apart. Even though the power doesnt need to roll to hit as its FaQ has outlined, the power still has to be resolved against -every model hit by it-. As Hard To Hit has pointed out, this power must be resolved as a Snap Shot now. The reason the power itself is now resolved as a Snap Shot is that the power outlines that it is a 'lance' type and only one shot is made. Since the Flier was hit and its Hard To Hit rule has made the entire beam count as a Snap Shot, we must look to the rules for Snap Shots.

Pg 13 BRB, Snap Shots bolded text to end of paragraph wrote:
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purposes of those shots. Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance , or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot.

Theres where we break the rule is right there. You have already fired your beam but the moment it crossed the flyer model, you become unable to fire it. Again, nothing in The Blood Lance's rule or FaQ has prevented you from not resolving the shot as a Psychic Shooting Power. As the BRB now takes trump in the specifications of Hard to Hit vs the BRBs own Resolving Damage on page 74 as the Flyer is still a vehicle.


So to TLDR everything up to this point:
The Blood Lance does not have to roll to hit, this prevents Evade from triggering due its wording for the Flyer
The Blood Lance still is a Psychic Shooting Attack and must be resolved as one, thats where the Flyer's Hard to Hit trumps the actual resolving of the shot by making the entire shot a Snap Shot.
The Blood Lance is prevented from being fired at all (in its entirety) due to Snap Shots preventing the power from happening.


Well... seems like a big can of worms here. How will folks play it cause with the rules mapped out in this fashion, it would be a @#$%# to go back and redo the beam so the Blood Angel player can still use his power. How would you guys/gals play it?
Personally, Id let the power go, it hit everything else, but the flyer; Just for a quick game.

Xzerios wrote:

Pg 13 BRB Roll to Hit, third paragraph wrote:
Note that the minimum roll needed To Hit is always at least 2. When rolling To Hit, there is no such thing as an automatic hit and a roll of a 1 always misses (or, at the very least will need re-rolling - see below). If several weapons have different Strengths, special rules or AP values, use different coloured dice or roll them separately.

Alright, theres a pretty obvious conflict ion of rules as the BRB says nothing auto-hits and this Psyker power doesnt have to roll to hit at all. Not bad so far. That will prevent the Flier from taking Evade, so thats pretty cool. Lets move on now in this situation.

Sorry, bit of a flaw to point out...
There is no conflict, the BRB does NOT say nothing auto-hits. It says (underlined the missing part) "When rolling To Hit" there are no auto-hits. An Auto-hit does not roll to hit.
If something triggered off a roll To Hit, it would not trigger with an auto-hit.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Well, I guess Vibro Cannons don't really belong in the same category as Blood Lance, they do roll to hit using their BS. So the two aren't really the same.

Of course, they don't roll to hit fliers or anyone else, so if their line is going through a flier, the flier is hit.

But they do have to be Snap Fired to be able to resolve their effects against Flyers, which means rolling against BS1, rather than BS3, when firing the Vibro Cannon.

 Leth wrote:
Actually now that I look more closely RAW is that the snap shot rule prevents something from firing not from resolving damage. "May not be fired as snap shots" However in this situation it has already been fired. However in this situation, since it has already been fired, even though snap shots kick in there is no effect as it kicks in after the thing it would prevent has already occurred. It can't retroactively prevent the individual from firing as that is what snap shots does, not prevent them from resolving damage.

You are focusing on the wrong rule, it's already been fired, correct, and we know it wasn't fired as a Snap Shot, because it can't be fired as a snap shot, which means, when you look at the Hard to Hit rule for Zooming Flyers, it can't be resolved against them because it wasn't a snap shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xzerios wrote:

Right. This here is where the Blood Lance argument will fall apart. Even though the power doesnt need to roll to hit as its FaQ has outlined, the power still has to be resolved against -every model hit by it-. As Hard To Hit has pointed out, this power must be resolved as a Snap Shot now. The reason the power itself is now resolved as a Snap Shot is that the power outlines that it is a 'lance' type and only one shot is made. Since the Flier was hit and its Hard To Hit rule has made the entire beam count as a Snap Shot, we must look to the rules for Snap Shots.

...

So to TLDR everything up to this point:
The Blood Lance does not have to roll to hit, this prevents Evade from triggering due its wording for the Flyer
The Blood Lance still is a Psychic Shooting Attack and must be resolved as one, thats where the Flyer's Hard to Hit trumps the actual resolving of the shot by making the entire shot a Snap Shot.
The Blood Lance is prevented from being fired at all (in its entirety) due to Snap Shots preventing the power from happening.

The Blood Lance is not forcibly turned into a Snap Shot simply by virtue of passing through a Flyer, it is simply forbidden from resolving against the Flyer because it wasn't a Snap Shot.

 Kevin949 wrote:
You need to remember the FAQ is a rules clarification, not a change to the rule. It's not flawed logic if it's the way it works.

FAQs change rules all the time. See Shadow in the Warp over the last few 5th ed FAQd and Spre Cloud in the last 5th ed FAQ. Since you probably won't be able to find them (unless you keep all of them):

Does Shadow in the Warp affect psykers who are taking a Psychic test whilst embarked within a transport vehicle? Originally No, changed to Yes (specifically it was changed to Yes in the very last 5th ed FAQ for Nids).


Do enemy models assaulting a Venomthrope brood, or another frindly Tyranid unit within range of its Spre Cloud, have their Initiative reduced to 1 for assaulting through the cloud? (p45)
A: No, as the Spore Cloud is not a piece of terrain. (Direct opposition to the Rule Book, where it wasn't moving through terrain that caused the drop, it was taking a difficult/dangerous terrain test.

So do we get to deny the witch on it? LOL

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Well, I guess Vibro Cannons don't really belong in the same category as Blood Lance, they do roll to hit using their BS. So the two aren't really the same.

Of course, they don't roll to hit fliers or anyone else, so if their line is going through a flier, the flier is hit.

But they do have to be Snap Fired to be able to resolve their effects against Flyers, which means rolling against BS1, rather than BS3, when firing the Vibro Cannon.

Not until 40k includes a time machine. Vibro Cannons roll to hit long before assessing what they actually do. They roll to hit before any line gets drawn.

Can I seriously ask why anyone ever mentions the Vibrocannon that actually states it rolls to hit - using BS no less - simply without a target which is irrelevant to every rule mentioned?

It is so entirely out of the conversation that it makes you look like a goon. Is my codex old, making me just wrong?

Unless I am missing something entirely, this is utterly asinine.

What are you babbling about?

Vibro cannons roll to hit using their BS. Then you draw a line from one of them. Then everything the line goes through takes damage, including your own units, units locked in close combat, and fliers.

And "without a target" is not irrelevant. It's the entirety of this rules debate. You can't Snap Shot at something you aren't shooting at.

You can't shoot at your own units or units locked in close combat at all, yet the Vibro cannon still hits them. It hits fliers just the same.

Drunkspleen wrote:The Blood Lance is not forcibly turned into a Snap Shot simply by virtue of passing through a Flyer, it is simply forbidden from resolving against the Flyer because it wasn't a Snap Shot.

Incorrect, the 'lance' is a single shot and the moment that shot passes under/over the Flyer model, you must now resolve the (single) shot as a Snap Shot as the rule for Snap Shot calls out for.

To answer another question, no, you will not get Deny the Witch as the Psychic test was taken, but there was no defined target of the power; those are the prerequisites for the rule. No defined target, no Deny the Witch. Eldar Warlocks also get around this but they dont take Psychic Tests per their FaQ.

DarknessEternal wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Well, I guess Vibro Cannons don't really belong in the same category as Blood Lance, they do roll to hit using their BS. So the two aren't really the same.

Of course, they don't roll to hit fliers or anyone else, so if their line is going through a flier, the flier is hit.

But they do have to be Snap Fired to be able to resolve their effects against Flyers, which means rolling against BS1, rather than BS3, when firing the Vibro Cannon.

Not until 40k includes a time machine. Vibro Cannons roll to hit long before assessing what they actually do. They roll to hit before any line gets drawn.

It doesn't matter that they have already rolled to hit, because Hard to Hit tells you the shot can only be resolved as a snap shot, because you have opted not to make a snap shot with your Vibro Cannons you are forfeiting the ability to resolve any sort of shot against a Zooming Flyer should the line pass through them.

Xzerios wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:The Blood Lance is not forcibly turned into a Snap Shot simply by virtue of passing through a Flyer, it is simply forbidden from resolving against the Flyer because it wasn't a Snap Shot.

Incorrect, the 'lance' is a single shot and the moment that shot passes under/over the Flyer model, you must now resolve the (single) shot as a Snap Shot as the rule for Snap Shot calls out for.

See above, you don't have to, you are told shots resolved at a zooming flyer can only be resolved as snap shots, if you simply don't resolve the shot against the zooming flyer, you are equally following that rule as if you resolve the entire shot as a snap shot. There is no obligation for the Blood Lance to "turn into" a snap shot just because it hit a Flyer, especially since it can't be fired as a snap shot, it simply is unable to resolve damage against the flyer for fear of breaking that clause.

... Youll be resolving that shot against the Flyer as the line passed over/under the model. The BRB does not give you permission to not resolve any shots on a whim. Resolve your shot sir.

Happyjew wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
You need to remember the FAQ is a rules clarification, not a change to the rule. It's not flawed logic if it's the way it works.

FAQs change rules all the time. See Shadow in the Warp over the last few 5th ed FAQd and Spre Cloud in the last 5th ed FAQ. Since you probably won't be able to find them (unless you keep all of them):

Does Shadow in the Warp affect psykers who are taking a Psychic test whilst embarked within a transport vehicle? Originally No, changed to Yes (specifically it was changed to Yes in the very last 5th ed FAQ for Nids).


Do enemy models assaulting a Venomthrope brood, or another frindly Tyranid unit within range of its Spre Cloud, have their Initiative reduced to 1 for assaulting through the cloud? (p45)
A: No, as the Spore Cloud is not a piece of terrain. (Direct opposition to the Rule Book, where it wasn't moving through terrain that caused the drop, it was taking a difficult/dangerous terrain test.

Remember, they bundle their FAQ and Errata into the same document. But no, a Q/A format document is not changing rules it is clarifying them. Doesn't matter if they change their answer (look at whip coils as well). An actual rules change is when they say to change combat shield from 5+ to 6+ or they remove barrage from a weapon, things like that.

Page 81, Hard to Hit:

Shots resolved at a zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots

Hmm, so what is the Warhammer 40k defined process for resolving a shot a something?

Page 12, The Shooting Sequence (emboldened text by me)

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to, but has not yet, fire this turn.
2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at one enemy unit that it can see. Every model that wishes to shoot must be able to see the target unit, and be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in range, cannot shoot.
3. Roll to hit. Roll a D6 for each shot fired. A model's Ballistic Skill determines what it must roll in order to hit the target.
4. Roll to wound. For each shot that hit, roll again to see if it wounds the target. The result needed is determined by comparing the Strength of the firing weapon with the majority Toughness of the target unit.
5. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties. Any wounds caused by the firing unit...<snip>

Just to add some additional clarification, page 12, Choose a Target

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target for them to shoot at.

Interesting. So when you resolve a shot AT something, the second step in the Warhammer 40k defined process is choose a target to shoot AT. Of course resolving a shot at a zooming Fler is different in some aspects being a vehicle, but it still includes includes choosing the zooming Flyer as a target to shoot AT.

Which brings us to Blood Lance. As a PSA, the rule for Blood Lance is as follows,

Codex Blood Angels, page 63: The Blood Lance,

The power is a psychic shooting attack. Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarian's base in any direction - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any unit in the lance's path suffers a single strength 8, AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type. Friendly units, and enemy units locked in close combat, are unaffected - the lance darts over them before continuing on its course.

Well, we see that Blood Lance does not choose a target per the Warhammer 40k defined process. If you forgot the clarification on page 12, that means it doesn't "choose a target to shoot AT.

So going back to the top, page 81, Hard to Hit

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots..[/b]

As Blood Lance does not choose a target per the Warhammer 40k defined process for shooting, ie, it does not "choose a target to shoot AT, it is not a shot resolved AT a Zooming Flyer and therefore never triggers the requirement to be resolved as a Snap Shot.

Removed the silly, but seriously; if you cannot produce a RAW argument against this, just flat out admit you are trying to RAI in a houserule.

So what if you have 2 units hit by a Vibro Cannon?

First a tank, then the flyer.

With a vibro cannon it becomes even werider. You roll to hit, and say roll a 5. You draw the line and both vehicles take an automatic hit.

Since it's claimed you need to resolve it as a snap hot, would you 'miss' the first vehicle as well?

I don't see how the flyer would magically create 2 different to-hit rolls for each vehicle.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
Not until 40k includes a time machine. Vibro Cannons roll to hit long before assessing what they actually do. They roll to hit before any line gets drawn.

It doesn't matter that they have already rolled to hit, because Hard to Hit tells you the shot can only be resolved as a snap shot,

And you're not allowed to roll to hit against units locked in close combat at all. Vibro cannons hit them just fine. They hit fliers too. They hit things they're not allowed to hit so long as the line goes through them.

Is it really your contention that "only hit with Snap Shots" is more restrictive than "cannot be shot at"?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
Not until 40k includes a time machine. Vibro Cannons roll to hit long before assessing what they actually do. They roll to hit before any line gets drawn.

It doesn't matter that they have already rolled to hit, because Hard to Hit tells you the shot can only be resolved as a snap shot,

And you're not allowed to roll to hit against units locked in close combat at all. Vibro cannons hit them just fine. They hit fliers too. They hit things they're not allowed to hit so long as the line goes through them.

Is it really your contention that "only hit with Snap Shots" is more restrictive than "cannot be shot at"?

No you are not allowed to target units locked in close combat. You can hit (and wound) them just fine, as long as you do not target them. As such, blast weapons scattering can hit them. the Vibro Cannon (whihc has no target) can hit them. JotWW and Blood Lance cannot affect them. Templates have a rule specifying they cannot be placed to cover models in cc.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
And you're not allowed to roll to hit against units locked in close combat at all. Vibro cannons hit them just fine. They hit fliers too. They hit things they're not allowed to hit so long as the line goes through them.

Is it really your contention that "only hit with Snap Shots" is more restrictive than "cannot be shot at"?

yes, well you are misquoting but yes is the answer to the question you sought to approximate, I consider the involvement of the word "Resolved" to fundamentally render Hard to Hit very different from Shooting Into & Out Of Close Combat

Happyjew wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
Not until 40k includes a time machine. Vibro Cannons roll to hit long before assessing what they actually do. They roll to hit before any line gets drawn.

It doesn't matter that they have already rolled to hit, because Hard to Hit tells you the shot can only be resolved as a snap shot,

And you're not allowed to roll to hit against units locked in close combat at all. Vibro cannons hit them just fine. They hit fliers too. They hit things they're not allowed to hit so long as the line goes through them.

Is it really your contention that "only hit with Snap Shots" is more restrictive than "cannot be shot at"?

No you are not allowed to target units locked in close combat. You can hit (and wound) them just fine, as long as you do not target them. As such, blast weapons scattering can hit them. the Vibro Cannon (whihc has no target) can hit them. JotWW and Blood Lance cannot affect them. Templates have a rule specifying they cannot be placed to cover models in cc.

Topic for a different thread, but JotWW can indeed affect models in close combat as only the first model affected by the power is considered the target model, everything else is just hit as the power goes through (SW FAQ). So as long as the first model is an eligible target (not in CC in this case) everything else is just hit as the power goes through.

Your getting caught up on the word "at". Understandable. In the end though, you have to resolve the shot.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Hmm, so what is the Warhammer 40k defined process for resolving a shot a something?

Theres actually two process' for this, you have found the first one on page 12 (and even quoted it! ). The one we are talking about though is found on page 74. Thats the set for resolving shots for vehicle models. Id also like to point out that I noted this on the big post.

In the end for vehicle models, youll still be resolving the shot with some form of a roll for penetration, correct? Thats a step of resolving the shot at a vehicle and the Hard to hit states that if your resolving a hit on a flyer, its counted as Snap Shots. Theres no way for you to get around this. Doesnt matter about the 'shot at' portion. Youll eventually move to resolve your shot on the flyer and thats where your Codex ended and the BRB steps in to resolve this shot. Now back in the realm of BRB vs BRB, the rules for Flyers are more specific and thats where your one shot gets (harhar) shot down. Nothing allows you to not resolve the shot at any time (cause such a rule does not exist); You are also not allowed to resolve each shot individually as it is a 'lance' type shot (granted, this is old fifth edition terminology). This shot is still counted as one Psychic Shooting attack, not one for each unit that the beam passed over. Thats why when you apply the rules from the Flyer which trump the shot resolving like normal, is the shot denied resolving due to it (the whole shot) being considered a Snap Shot once it passed over/under the Flyer. The results of you being able to resolve this snap shot now against the ground units that it hit is unable to finish resolution because the whole shot became a Snap Shot and is now unable to fire.
That sir is where the can of worms opens up. It would be a waste of time to redo the shot. Simplest forms to resolve it are either follow the rules as they are written and that would result in nothing happening bar the point spent and test passed. The other option is to discredit the Flyer resolution, despite this breaking the rules, but to keep the game moving, continue wth the ground units hit anyway.

Except the autohit totally bypassing the entirety of your post by not snapfiring.

Autohit: Yes, I wont dispute it.
Resolving: Power fails. I have proven this with rules. The codex does not bypass this function of the Psychic Shooting attack and as the rules for doing such are within the BRB, the BRB rules for Flyers trumps the resolution of the Psychic Shooting attack. Mind you, the rule for hard to hit has "resolve" within it. This is a part of the process that even the auto-hit that is The Blood Lance does not have permission to skip.

 Shandara wrote:
So what if you have 2 units hit by a Vibro Cannon?

First a tank, then the flyer.

With a vibro cannon it becomes even werider. You roll to hit, and say roll a 5. You draw the line and both vehicles take an automatic hit.

Since it's claimed you need to resolve it as a snap hot, would you 'miss' the first vehicle as well?

I don't see how the flyer would magically create 2 different to-hit rolls for each vehicle.

Not possible. You have to draw a line. A line has a definition. It's not a plane that goes up to infinity, it's a strait line with no width or depth. Vibro-cannons specifically says "through" a unit. Not over, not under, not around, but "through".

If it were to hit a tank and then bend up to a flyer, it would no longer be a "line".

Please make a new thread for the Vibro-canons for the Eldar folks. Ill pull up a codex and join it that later but please move that discussion out of this one.
Thank you. :3

Xzerios wrote:
Autohit: Yes, I wont dispute it.
Resolving: Power fails. I have proven this with rules. The codex does not bypass this function of the Psychic Shooting attack and as the rules for doing such are within the BRB, the BRB rules for Flyers trumps the resolution of the Psychic Shooting attack. Mind you, the rule for hard to hit has "resolve" within it. This is a part of the process that even the auto-hit that is The Blood Lance does not have permission to skip.

You have not proven anything will rules. What you have done is dismissed is the defined shooting process, specifically, choosing a target which you shoot at to make your argument.

Resolving a shot at a Zooming Flyer means that you specifically chose that Zooming Fler as your target, per the defined shooting process. You chose to shoot AT that target. I am not reading into "at" and then coming up with some conspiracy theory against Zooming Flyers, I am applying the defined process for resolving a shot at a Zooming Flyer.

If you're not resolving the hit at the flyer, then what are you doing Tyr?

Xzerios wrote:
Please make a new thread for the Vibro-canons for the Eldar folks. Ill pull up a codex and join it that later but please move that discussion out of this one.
Thank you. :3

We compare to Vibro Cannons because it is the closest non-psychic shooting attack. This is also the reason why some of us argued that Blood Lance still required a To Hit roll prior to the FAQ. Well that and the fact it was a PSA that did not say it autohit...

I have shown with rules sir you are unable to resolve that shot at the flier. Burden now falls you your camp to prove with either your Codex that your able to resolve this shot without resolving the shot with the BRB for your powers codex trumping ability to work as your defining it to.

Im going to save you from looking through the Blood Angels book here and tell you that you are unable to. Your own FaQ has told you that it is resolved like a normal Psychic Shooting Attack. This is in the BRB. The wording of The Blood Lance doesnt have a target specifically as its a 'lance' type power. No target, thats fine. Does your line cross a unit? Youll be resolving that shot using the rules to resolve that shot at the unit with either the rules for it on page 12, or on page 74. Again, there is no way around this. The wording for Hard to Hit states that -any shot- being resolved at a Flying model that was zooming is a Snap Shot. Since there is no process for you to not not resolve your shot with the Flyer and your codex does not resolve the shot, you are bound by the rules within the BRB to resolve the shot.


The Hard to Hit rule cares not about the targeted portion of your shot. Youll be resolving it at the Flyer and thats where the power falls apart as the rules from the BRB literally prevent you from doing so.

Xzerios wrote:
I have shown with rules sir you are unable to resolve that shot at the flier. Burden now falls you your camp to prove with either your Codex that your able to resolve this shot without resolving the shot with the BRB for your powers codex trumping ability to work as your defining it to. .

No argument from me. I agree that none of the 4 "line" "weapons" can affect Flyers, with the exception of the Death Ray fired with the Skyfire rule (which is possible). However in the Death Ray scenario it either hits Flyers/FMCs/Skimmers or Ground units (including Skimmers) but not both.


Damn Eldar and Tau having nothing but Skimmers... (War Walkers excluded of course)

Skyfire Nexus will allow them to hit Flyers.

Xzerios wrote:
Skyfire Nexus will allow them to hit Flyers.

I think this is outside of the area of discussion.

Or at least the answer to it. LoL

Xzerios wrote:
I have shown with rules sir you are unable to resolve that shot at the flier. Burden now falls you your camp to prove with either your Codex that your able to resolve this shot without resolving the shot with the BRB for your powers codex trumping ability to work as your defining it to.

Im going to save you from looking through the Blood Angels book here and tell you that you are unable to. Your own FaQ has told you that it is resolved like a normal Psychic Shooting Attack. This is in the BRB. The wording of The Blood Lance doesnt have a target specifically as its a 'lance' type power. No target, thats fine. Does your line cross a unit? Youll be resolving that shot using the rules to resolve that shot at the unit with either the rules for it on page 12, or on page 74. Again, there is no way around this. The wording for Hard to Hit states that -any shot- being resolved at a Flying model that was zooming is a Snap Shot. Since there is no process for you to not not resolve your shot with the Flyer and your codex does not resolve the shot, you are bound by the rules within the BRB to resolve the shot.


The Hard to Hit rule cares not about the targeted portion of your shot. Youll be resolving it at the Flyer and thats where the power falls apart as the rules from the BRB literally prevent you from doing so.

Actually no you haven't.

You are not resolving a shot at a Zooming Flyer with Blood Lance as you never targeted it per the defined rules of both shooting at a vehicle and a Zooming Flyer. You continue to dismiss this key difference because it destroys your argument.

Blood Lance, as a PSA does indeed shoot, however it was never shot at a Zooming Flyer. You are not resolving a shot at a Zooming Flyer in the case of Blood Lance, you are resolving a hit of a Zooming Flyer. Resolving a hit is part of the defined rules of making a shooting attack, however because the Zooming Flyer was never a target of the shooting attack, per the RAW on page 12,

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target for them to shoot at.

It was never shot at. It was hit by Blood Lance, but per the rules I have cited, it was never shot at.

Now you keep saying that you have used the rules to prove your point, yet I see nothing cited that tells you that,

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots...

Is not referring to the defined process of making a shooting attack. You say that I am reading into "at" yet there is only one defined process for resolving a shooting attack in the BRB that tells you that you, "choose a target for them to shoot at." Even the rules for resolving shooting attacks at vehicles still requires that you follow and/or modify the general rules found on page 12 to account for armor penetration and vehicle damage. You will note however that both rules still follow the rules for choosing a target.

So I ask you since you have said that you have shown me in the rules, what rules are you using for resolving a shot?








Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xzerios wrote:
Your getting caught up on the word "at". Understandable. In the end though, you have to resolve the shot.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Hmm, so what is the Warhammer 40k defined process for resolving a shot a something?

Theres actually two process' for this, you have found the first one on page 12 (and even quoted it! ). The one we are talking about though is found on page 74. Thats the set for resolving shots for vehicle models. Id also like to point out that I noted this on the big post.

In the end for vehicle models, youll still be resolving the shot with some form of a roll for penetration, correct? Thats a step of resolving the shot at a vehicle and the Hard to hit states that if your resolving a hit on a flyer, its counted as Snap Shots. Theres no way for you to get around this. Doesnt matter about the 'shot at' portion. Youll eventually move to resolve your shot on the flyer and thats where your Codex ended and the BRB steps in to resolve this shot. Now back in the realm of BRB vs BRB, the rules for Flyers are more specific and thats where your one shot gets (harhar) shot down. Nothing allows you to not resolve the shot at any time (cause such a rule does not exist); You are also not allowed to resolve each shot individually as it is a 'lance' type shot (granted, this is old fifth edition terminology). This shot is still counted as one Psychic Shooting attack, not one for each unit that the beam passed over. Thats why when you apply the rules from the Flyer which trump the shot resolving like normal, is the shot denied resolving due to it (the whole shot) being considered a Snap Shot once it passed over/under the Flyer. The results of you being able to resolve this snap shot now against the ground units that it hit is unable to finish resolution because the whole shot became a Snap Shot and is now unable to fire.
That sir is where the can of worms opens up. It would be a waste of time to redo the shot. Simplest forms to resolve it are either follow the rules as they are written and that would result in nothing happening bar the point spent and test passed. The other option is to discredit the Flyer resolution, despite this breaking the rules, but to keep the game moving, continue wth the ground units hit anyway.

I decided to rip apart the first part of this post since there are so many mistakes in it.

Theres actually two process' for this, you have found the first one on page 12 (and even quoted it! ).

No, there is not two processes. Shooting at vehicles only makes some modifications to the general rules for shooting to account for such things as armor penetration and rolling for damage. As I noted, choosing a target remains the same.

In the end for vehicle models, youll still be resolving the shot with some form of a roll for penetration, correct?

No, you will be resolving a hit from Blood Lance with some form of a roll for penetration. Blood Lance did not shoot at the vehicle, but it still hit the vehicle.

Thats a step of resolving the shot at a vehicle and the Hard to hit states that if your resolving a hit on a flyer, its counted as Snap Shots.

No, Hard to Hit states that if you are resolving a shot at a Zooming Flyer it can only be resolved as a Snap Shot

Doesnt matter about the 'shot at' portion.

Interesting statement considering that on page 12 it states, "Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target for them to shoot at."

You keep saying that you use the rules, yet in what I have pointed out, it appears that you have not even read the rules.

"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unlesst he model or weapon has the Skryfire special rule, as described on page 42)"
Quoted for clarity.

Tyr,
I do see what you're saying but your entire argument is set on your special interpretation of the word "AT". If my Psyker casts Blood Lance and hits a rhino, and IC and a Flyer. These statements help explain what happens.

I draw a line and my line HITS the rhino, the IC and the Flyer.
I did not choose a target, but I did aim this line to see what I'm shooting AT.
My psyker did not aim AT the rhino, the IC or the Flyer but he did shoot the Blood Lance AT everything that it hits.

These shots are still resolved AT (and against) the rhino, the IC and the Flyer.

Tyr, I see what you're trying to do, I really do. If you shoot a hill directly behind the model and oops, the shot hits the model, you still shot AT the model. This isn't a random effect where you accidentally put the line on someone. You aim it AT a line of enemy models. So to speak you are placing the line so you shoot at each of the models in the line.

I play Blood Angels and it would be great to have the only Psychic power in the game with a loophole that lets you hit flyers without Snap Fire, but unfortunately it doesn't work.

This psychic shooting attack is resolved AT the models the line hits, is not resolved with a BS so cannot be resolved as a Snap Shot and therefore - can not hit Flyers.

But if the 'shot' can not be resolved as a Snap Shot it could not hit the rhino either.

 Shandara wrote:
But if the 'shot' can not be resolved as a Snap Shot it could not hit the rhino either.

Why could it not hit the Rhino? There is no restriction that you have to Snap Shot to hit a Rhino (some exception apply, this is not one of them).

Except you are not resolving a shot at all, you are resolving a hit. A shot would indicate a dice roll being required.

Everyone should stop and think about this for just a second. If you ARE NOT RESOLVING A SHOT AT THE FLYER then please explain to me what you ARE doing? You need to clarify that before telling me you aren't resolving a shot at the flyer.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Everyone should stop and think about this for just a second. If you ARE NOT RESOLVING A SHOT AT THE FLYER then please explain to me what you ARE doing? You need to clarify that before telling me you aren't resolving a shot at the flyer.

Hitting it.
Remember, as was explained at length to me and in great detail with a little bit of mocking, shooting and shooting at are different things.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210/452317.page
(warning - 5th ed argument, but the shoot == shoot at argument wasn't using rules anyway)

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
Everyone should stop and think about this for just a second. If you ARE NOT RESOLVING A SHOT AT THE FLYER then please explain to me what you ARE doing? You need to clarify that before telling me you aren't resolving a shot at the flyer.

Hitting it.
Remember, as was explained at length to me and in great detail with a little bit of mocking, shooting and shooting at are different things.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210/452317.page
(warning - 5th ed argument, but the shoot == shoot at argument wasn't using rules anyway)

So, hitting it isn't part of the resolution process anymore? Honestly, I don't care if blood lance is "bypassing" the to hit roll. It's technically NOT, it's automatically hitting it. It's the same thing with wraiths "automatically passing" dangerous terrain tests. They didn't bypass the test, they still rolled but they pass no matter what. It's the same with blood lance, you still roll but you hit no matter what. Which cannot happen against flyers without skyfire.

You can't take a step out of the resolution process just because something "automatically" happens. Similar to AP 2 weapons, no armor saves can ever be taken so a wound is automatically applied. That still counts as an unsaved wound (meaning you had to ROLL but you automatically fail), otherwise certain other effects would NEVER happen due to an unsaved wound (such as FNP). Do you see what I'm getting at with this?

To reiterate, just because something "automatically happens" does not mean it "is skipped" in the grand process.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unlesst he model or weapon has the Skryfire special rule, as described on page 42)"
Quoted for clarity.

Tyr,
I do see what you're saying but your entire argument is set on your special interpretation of the word "AT". If my Psyker casts Blood Lance and hits a rhino, and IC and a Flyer. These statements help explain what happens.

I draw a line and my line HITS the rhino, the IC and the Flyer.
I did not choose a target, but I did aim this line to see what I'm shooting AT.
My psyker did not aim AT the rhino, the IC or the Flyer but he did shoot the Blood Lance AT everything that it hits.

These shots are still resolved AT (and against) the rhino, the IC and the Flyer.

Tyr, I see what you're trying to do, I really do. If you shoot a hill directly behind the model and oops, the shot hits the model, you still shot AT the model. This isn't a random effect where you accidentally put the line on someone. You aim it AT a line of enemy models. So to speak you are placing the line so you shoot at each of the models in the line.

I play Blood Angels and it would be great to have the only Psychic power in the game with a loophole that lets you hit flyers without Snap Fire, but unfortunately it doesn't work.

This psychic shooting attack is resolved AT the models the line hits, is not resolved with a BS so cannot be resolved as a Snap Shot and therefore - can not hit Flyers.the Flyer.

ND, I know that the BA player is placing the line of Blood Lance so that he can hit the Rhino, IC, and Flyer. You are pointing out plain common sense that he is indeed shooting the PSA at the Rhino, the IC, and the Flyer. However the problem is that Warhammer 40k does not care one bit about common sense, it only cares about what the rules say.

That is the crux of the problem in so many RAW debates on this specific forum. People read a part of the rules and instantly equate the real world mechanics of what that rule says and forgo what it actually means in gaming terms. I have seen it so many times, not only regarding the rules for shooting, moving, assaulting, etc, and. Etc.

In this case you are taking the act of the player deliberately placing the 4d6 Blood Lance line so that it hits, the Rhino, the IC, and the Flyer and equating that to the librarian targetting and shooting at those models and thus it must be resolved as a Snap Shot. However per the rules, the Librarian as a model never chose the Rhino, the IC, or the Flyer as targets to shoot at. Per the rules you have to remove you as the player from the battlefield and accept that the Librarian didnt know that there was a Rhino, an IC, and a Flyer all lined up in a neat row and just cast Blood Lance in the general direction of the enemy lines and happened to hit a Rhino, an IC, and a Flyer all lined up in a neat row.

The rules tells us how to represent the psuedo reality of the Warhammer 40k battlefield. You cannot interject real world mechanics and common sense into those defined rules.

 Kevin949 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
Everyone should stop and think about this for just a second. If you ARE NOT RESOLVING A SHOT AT THE FLYER then please explain to me what you ARE doing? You need to clarify that before telling me you aren't resolving a shot at the flyer.

Hitting it.
Remember, as was explained at length to me and in great detail with a little bit of mocking, shooting and shooting at are different things.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210/452317.page
(warning - 5th ed argument, but the shoot == shoot at argument wasn't using rules anyway)

So, hitting it isn't part of the resolution process anymore?

It absolutely is.
You're under the impression that shooting == shooting at, and if something has been hit, one of those things must have occurred.
I was informed otherwise in the thread I linked.

blood lance cannot hit flyers under the current rules.

blaktoof wrote:
blood lance cannot hit flyers under the current rules.

Care to cite a rule to support your position?
I'm not saying I disagree or agree with you, but assertions like that without rules are useless.

 Kevin949 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
Everyone should stop and think about this for just a second. If you ARE NOT RESOLVING A SHOT AT THE FLYER then please explain to me what you ARE doing? You need to clarify that before telling me you aren't resolving a shot at the flyer.

Hitting it.
Remember, as was explained at length to me and in great detail with a little bit of mocking, shooting and shooting at are different things.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210/452317.page
(warning - 5th ed argument, but the shoot == shoot at argument wasn't using rules anyway)

So, hitting it isn't part of the resolution process anymore? Honestly, I don't care if blood lance is "bypassing" the to hit roll. It's technically NOT, it's automatically hitting it. It's the same thing with wraiths "automatically passing" dangerous terrain tests. They didn't bypass the test, they still rolled but they pass no matter what. It's the same with blood lance, you still roll but you hit no matter what. Which cannot happen against flyers without skyfire.

You can't take a step out of the resolution process just because something "automatically" happens. Similar to AP 2 weapons, no armor saves can ever be taken so a wound is automatically applied. That still counts as an unsaved wound (meaning you had to ROLL but you automatically fail), otherwise certain other effects would NEVER happen due to an unsaved wound (such as FNP). Do you see what I'm getting at with this?

To reiterate, just because something "automatically happens" does not mean it "is skipped" in the grand process.

The simplest way I can think of explaining it to you is as follows:

The recipe to bake a cake involves:

1. Placing cake mix in a mixing bowl.
2. Add two eggs to mixing bowl.
3. Mix.
4. Bake.

Now if i add two eggs to mixing bowl and bake it, did I make a cake?

It is the same with shot resolution. It is a defined process, of which choosing a target to shoot at is a step that is needed to trigger the Snap Shots clause in Hard to Hit.

blaktoof wrote:
blood lance cannot hit flyers under the current rules.

The codex description of the power, specifically says otherwise, so you will need some rules somewhere to prove this point.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
It is a defined process, of which choosing a target to shoot at is a step that is needed to trigger the Snap Shots clause in Hard to Hit.

Well since it is a defined process, which does not mention rolling to penetrate vehicles, then I guess you cannot resolve the shot against a vehicle.

rigeld2 wrote:

It absolutely is.
You're under the impression that shooting == shooting at, and if something has been hit, one of those things must have occurred.
I was informed otherwise in the thread I linked.

Perhaps if the player didn't choose where the line went, then I'd agree that you aren't shooting at something.

Though I am curious about something...since you have to "aim up" to fire the blood lance at a flyer....doesn't that seem a bit largely biased to the psyker? What with the "under the line" clause, would that still hit everything between the psyker and the flyer at that point? Or is it actually only models/units that are intersected by the line that take the hit?


Consequently, what are the odds your line will intersect a unit prior to hitting a flyer? Remember, you can't draw it to the base. Anyway, just conjecture or whatever.

 Kevin949 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

It absolutely is.
You're under the impression that shooting == shooting at, and if something has been hit, one of those things must have occurred.
I was informed otherwise in the thread I linked.

Perhaps if the player didn't choose where the line went, then I'd agree that you aren't shooting at something.

Though I am curious about something...since you have to "aim up" to fire the blood lance at a flyer....doesn't that seem a bit largely biased to the psyker? What with the "under the line" clause, would that still hit everything between the psyker and the flyer at that point? Or is it actually only models/units that are intersected by the line that take the hit?


Consequently, what are the odds your line will intersect a unit prior to hitting a flyer? Remember, you can't draw it to the base. Anyway, just conjecture or whatever.

That would be the Death Ray wording. There is a strong argument "under the line" to ignore Flyers because the base is ignored for most purposes. However, Blood Lances says "in the path of the line" which is far more generic.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:


The simplest way I can think of explaining it to you is as follows:

The recipe to bake a cake involves:

1. Placing cake mix in a mixing bowl.
2. Add two eggs to mixing bowl.
3. Mix.
4. Bake.

Now if i add two eggs to mixing bowl and bake it, did I make a cake?

It is the same with shot resolution. It is a defined process, of which choosing a target to shoot at is a step that is needed to trigger the Snap Shots clause in Hard to Hit.

You're still alluding to the fact that a step didn't happen. You DID choose a target. Show me where in the "The Shooting Sequence" (pg12) that it says resolution only applies to the unit you targeted? In fact, the steps only require that you "choose a target". Which you've essentially done (as alluded by the BA faq).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

It absolutely is.
You're under the impression that shooting == shooting at, and if something has been hit, one of those things must have occurred.
I was informed otherwise in the thread I linked.

Perhaps if the player didn't choose where the line went, then I'd agree that you aren't shooting at something.

Though I am curious about something...since you have to "aim up" to fire the blood lance at a flyer....doesn't that seem a bit largely biased to the psyker? What with the "under the line" clause, would that still hit everything between the psyker and the flyer at that point? Or is it actually only models/units that are intersected by the line that take the hit?


Consequently, what are the odds your line will intersect a unit prior to hitting a flyer? Remember, you can't draw it to the base. Anyway, just conjecture or whatever.

That would be the Death Ray wording. There is a strong argument "under the line" to ignore Flyers because the base is ignored for most purposes. However, Blood Lances says "in the path of the line" which is far more generic.

Oh does it say in the path? That's good to know then.

 Kevin949 wrote:
You're still alluding to the fact that a step didn't happen. You DID choose a target. Show me where in the "The Shooting Sequence" (pg12) that it says resolution only applies to the unit you targeted? In fact, the steps only require that you "choose a target". Which you've essentially done (as alluded by the BA faq).

Well, no. There's no target chosen until after the line is drawn - there cannot be since that's what decides your target.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
You're still alluding to the fact that a step didn't happen. You DID choose a target. Show me where in the "The Shooting Sequence" (pg12) that it says resolution only applies to the unit you targeted? In fact, the steps only require that you "choose a target". Which you've essentially done (as alluded by the BA faq).

Well, no. There's no target chosen until after the line is drawn - there cannot be since that's what decides your target.

That is not what decides your target, that is what decides what you hit. The BA FAQ then goes on to clarify that the first unit you hit is the only unit that you are then allowed to assault. To then try and equate that with the rules for only being able to assault that which you have targeted is adding parameters to the BA FAQ that are just not there.

OK I found a sentence in the Blood Angels FAQ that may alter the discussion a bit:

"Blood Lance is a shooting atack that can hit multiple units. If the Librarian wishes to assault after using Blood Lance, which unit/s is he permitted to assault?"

Only the first unit hit by the Blood Lance


Now we don't need much brain to conclude the following:

The librarian is allowed to assault the unit he chose as his target for shooting. Since the FAQ disallows him to assault any unit hit by the Blood Lance beyond the first, this means necessarily that all units except for the first one are in fact not targets of his shooting. Furthermore it means that the first unit has to be treated as his target since he made a shooting attack and is able to assault the first unit.

That means the line cannot be traced in such a way that a flyer is first unit under the line, because then the game breaks. (You chose an invalid target for your shooting attack)
But if a flyer happens to be hit by the line after another unit, he must suffer the result since he wasn't target of the shooting attack.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
You're still alluding to the fact that a step didn't happen. You DID choose a target. Show me where in the "The Shooting Sequence" (pg12) that it says resolution only applies to the unit you targeted? In fact, the steps only require that you "choose a target". Which you've essentially done (as alluded by the BA faq).

Well, no. There's no target chosen until after the line is drawn - there cannot be since that's what decides your target.

That is not what decides your target, that is what decides what you hit. The BA FAQ then goes on to clarify that the first unit you hit is the only unit that you are then allowed to assault. To then try and equate that with the rules for only being able to assault that which you have targeted is adding parameters to the BA FAQ that are just not there.

Uhm...except for the line in the rulebook that says a unit can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turns shooting phase. The FAQ is only a clarification of the blood lance and assaulting rule, it's not changing the fundamentals of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
OK I found a sentence in the Blood Angels FAQ that may alter the discussion a bit:

"Blood Lance is a shooting atack that can hit multiple units. If the Librarian wishes to assault after using Blood Lance, which unit/s is he permitted to assault?"

Only the first unit hit by the Blood Lance


Now we don't need much brain to conclude the following:

The librarian is allowed to assault the unit he chose as his target for shooting. Since the FAQ disallows him to assault any unit hit by the Blood Lance beyond the first, this means necessarily that all units except for the first one are in fact not targets of his shooting. Furthermore it means that the first unit has to be treated as his target since he made a shooting attack and is able to assault the first unit.

That means the line cannot be traced in such a way that a flyer is first unit under the line, because then the game breaks. (You chose an invalid target for your shooting attack)
But if a flyer happens to be hit by the line after another unit, he must suffer the result since he wasn't target of the shooting attack.

Again I'll say, the shooting sequence only requires you to choose a target, nothing in snap shots or hard to hit requires the target to be the flyer to trigger those limitations.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
You're still alluding to the fact that a step didn't happen. You DID choose a target. Show me where in the "The Shooting Sequence" (pg12) that it says resolution only applies to the unit you targeted? In fact, the steps only require that you "choose a target". Which you've essentially done (as alluded by the BA faq).

Well, no. There's no target chosen until after the line is drawn - there cannot be since that's what decides your target.

That is not what decides your target, that is what decides what you hit. The BA FAQ then goes on to clarify that the first unit you hit is the only unit that you are then allowed to assault. To then try and equate that with the rules for only being able to assault that which you have targeted is adding parameters to the BA FAQ that are just not there.

Uhm...except for the line in the rulebook that says a unit can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turns shooting phase. The FAQ is only a clarification of the blood lance and assaulting rule, it's not changing the fundamentals of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
OK I found a sentence in the Blood Angels FAQ that may alter the discussion a bit:

"Blood Lance is a shooting atack that can hit multiple units. If the Librarian wishes to assault after using Blood Lance, which unit/s is he permitted to assault?"

Only the first unit hit by the Blood Lance


Now we don't need much brain to conclude the following:

The librarian is allowed to assault the unit he chose as his target for shooting. Since the FAQ disallows him to assault any unit hit by the Blood Lance beyond the first, this means necessarily that all units except for the first one are in fact not targets of his shooting. Furthermore it means that the first unit has to be treated as his target since he made a shooting attack and is able to assault the first unit.

That means the line cannot be traced in such a way that a flyer is first unit under the line, because then the game breaks. (You chose an invalid target for your shooting attack)
But if a flyer happens to be hit by the line after another unit, he must suffer the result since he wasn't target of the shooting attack.

Again I'll say, the shooting sequence only requires you to choose a target, nothing in snap shots or hard to hit requires the target to be the flyer to trigger those limitations.

You are reading the FAQ wrong.

The FAQ is not clarifying that Blood Lance targets the first unit it hits and is thus allowed to assault it. The FAQ is clarifying that the only unit it can assault is the first unit the power hit. You are adding the BRB targeting/assault requirements to the FAQ to bolster your flawed argument, without any rules support to do so. If the Blood Lance was FAQ'd like the JotWW FAQ, then you would have a leg to stand on as it specifically tells you to treat the first model affected by the power as the target model. However you cannot infer that the Blood Lance FAQ insinuates the first model hit by the power must be the target model because you are allowed to assault it after you hit it.

The shooting sequence requires that you choose a target to shoot AT. The Hard to Hit rule tells you that when you are resolving a shot AT a Zooming Flyer, you trigger Snap Shots if you do not have Skyfire. Read the rules completely instead of paraphrasing them to bolster your argument.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

ND, I know that the BA player is placing the line of Blood Lance so that he can hit the Rhino, IC, and Flyer. You are pointing out plain common sense that he is indeed shooting the PSA at the Rhino, the IC, and the Flyer. However the problem is that Warhammer 40k does not care one bit about common sense, it only cares about what the rules say.

I'm not using "common sense", I am using "common understanding" of the RAW. I agree this isn't the same as applying the exact game terms more commonly used, but 40k has never been that precise.

Your whole argument relies on the word "AT" instead of "AGAINST". When every other rule in the game plays a certain way and flyers just can't be hit by such powers, to make a whole change of playstyle based on this strict interpretation must be plainly wrong. Following RAW doesn't require common sense or real world analogies, but it does require you to understand the rule in the common speech used in writing it.

It's safe to say that shooting attacks that hit the flyer are the shots that are resolved at the flyer.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

You are reading the FAQ wrong.

The FAQ is not clarifying that Blood Lance targets the first unit it hits and is thus allowed to assault it. The FAQ is clarifying that the only unit it can assault is the first unit the power hit. You are adding the BRB targeting/assault requirements to the FAQ to bolster your flawed argument, without any rules support to do so. If the Blood Lance was FAQ'd like the JotWW FAQ, then you would have a leg to stand on as it specifically tells you to treat the first model affected by the power as the target model. However you cannot infer that the Blood Lance FAQ insinuates the first model hit by the power must be the target model because you are allowed to assault it after you hit it.

The shooting sequence requires that you choose a target to shoot AT. The Hard to Hit rule tells you that when you are resolving a shot AT a Zooming Flyer, you trigger Snap Shots if you do not have Skyfire. Read the rules completely instead of paraphrasing them to bolster your argument.

So...now we're just choosing to decide how rules work and are interpreted to benefit whoever?

I think I'm finished then.

Again I'll say, the shooting sequence only requires you to choose a target, nothing in snap shots or hard to hit requires the target to be the flyer to trigger those limitations.

Hard to hit requires the flyer to be shot at to force the shooting unit to snapfire. Now compare that with the wording of "choose a target"...

And to ask the other way round: Where in the shooting process can you quote me this specific wording when it comes to hits and penetration?


@Tyr

The FAQ is not clarifying that Blood Lance targets the first unit it hits and is thus allowed to assault it. The FAQ is clarifying that the only unit it can assault is the first unit the power hit.

You are right about that. There can be another reason why the librarian is allowed to assault than the unit being his target. But lets expand the issue a bit and assume that he is attached to a unit. Since you assume that the Blood Lance does not have a target the unit should be free to shoot at a unit they like. Lets assume they shot at a completely different unit. Does that mean the unit is unable to assault afterwards since their target was the unit the regulars shot at and the librarian is restricted to assault them as well as they are disallowed to assault the first unit under the librarians line?

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

ND, I know that the BA player is placing the line of Blood Lance so that he can hit the Rhino, IC, and Flyer. You are pointing out plain common sense that he is indeed shooting the PSA at the Rhino, the IC, and the Flyer. However the problem is that Warhammer 40k does not care one bit about common sense, it only cares about what the rules say.

I'm not using "common sense", I am using "common understanding" of the RAW. I agree this isn't the same as applying the exact game terms more commonly used, but 40k has never been that precise.

Your whole argument relies on the word "AT" instead of "AGAINST". When every other rule in the game plays a certain way and flyers just can't be hit by such powers, to make a whole change of playstyle based on this strict interpretation must be plainly wrong. Following RAW doesn't require common sense or real world analogies, but it does require you to understand the rule in the common speech used in writing it.

It's safe to say that shooting attacks that hit the flyer are the shots that are resolved at the flyer.

I find it quite funny that everyone against the Blood Lance hitting a Zooming Flyer hinges their entire argument on dismissing the "AT" in resolving a shot "AT" a Zooming Flyer.

Do you think I just pulled "AT" out of my arse?

Page 12, The Shooting Sequence

2. Choosing a target. The unit can shoot AT one enemy unit that it can see.

Page 12, CHOOSE A TARGET

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target to shoot AT.

Page 13, WHICH MODELS CAN FIRE?

All models in the unit must shoot AT the same target unit.

Page 73, SHOOTING AT VEHICLES

When a unit fires AT a vehicle, it must be able to see its hull or turret.

<snip>

As the whole unit must fire AT the same target, this often means that some of their weapons can't damage the target vehicle,.....

And yet somehow I am reading too much into,

Page 81, Hard to Hit

Shots resolved AT a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.

?????

How about I make my counter-accusation? Everyone against Blood Lance not hitting Zooming Flyers are willfully ignoring "Shots resolved AT..." as a reference to the defined shooting process in Warhammer 40k to bolster their flawed argument.

Tyr, you are right. Or, you are maybe right, but it's ambiguous. You are definitely not wrong though (we've already covered ambiguous).

However, you will not convince these people. Yes, all they want is the last word, they don't care if they are right. Just let them have it. No further use is being drawn here since the last 4 pages have brought nothing actual new to the question or answer.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tyr, you are right. Or, you are maybe right, but it's ambiguous. You are definitely not wrong though (we've already covered ambiguous).

However, you will not convince these people. Yes, all they want is the last word, they don't care if they are right. Just let them have it. No further use is being drawn here since the last 4 pages have brought nothing actual new to the question or answer.

I find it funny that the main counterpoint is,

"Well Tyr, "AT" isn't really what you think it is."

Seriously? That is it without anything to back up that assertation? At least I can back up my interpretation of what they mean when they use "AT" with cited rules.

I agree, done with this circus.

tYR ARGUMENT HAS BEEN SOLELY ON THE FACT YOUR NOT TARGETING ANYTHING. oops

Right I think we all understand that. So based on that there is no roll to hit just auto hits. In the 5th edition it was perfect there was no contradicting rules, nor where there rules for flyers. However there is rules for flyers and them rules gots to be followed since narry one codex has written rules to the contrary.

Blood lance dosent target and Hard to hit has zero venacular to say its targeted just resolveing. So as written the blood lance fails o hit a flyer, and hits everything else except whats written in the codex as exclusions.

Id say lets comprimise for now and let all ground units be hit 4d6 and when it cross's a flyer roll a dice and if ya get a six BAM!!!! the flyer is hit and everybody wins. Easy Peasy

We all have our ideas about FAQ and Gw it would be silly to expect them to rule one way or the other when they get to sit around read these forums and laugh at us DAFT people
making something simple so impossible.

Well Tyr, resolve the Psychic Shooting attack with the Flyer then. Please, go on good sir. :3

Lungpickle wrote:
tYR ARGUMENT HAS BEEN SOLELY ON THE FACT YOUR NOT TARGETING ANYTHING. oops

Right I think we all understand that. So based on that there is no roll to hit just auto hits. In the 5th edition it was perfect there was no contradicting rules, nor where there rules for flyers. However there is rules for flyers and them rules gots to be followed since narry one codex has written rules to the contrary.

Blood lance dosent target and Hard to hit has zero venacular to say its targeted just resolveing. So as written the blood lance fails o hit a flyer, and hits everything else except whats written in the codex as exclusions.

Id say lets comprimise for now and let all ground units be hit 4d6 and when it cross's a flyer roll a dice and if ya get a six BAM!!!! the flyer is hit and everybody wins. Easy Peasy

We all have our ideas about FAQ and Gw it would be silly to expect them to rule one way or the other when they get to sit around read these forums and laugh at us DAFT people
making something simple so impossible.

Is English your second or third language by chance?

Ok, so blood lance is a random distance PSA.
It does not target things as normal.

So, i fire it towards a flyer and the roll comes up short.
Was it fired at the flyer, or just towards it?

Same thing again, but this time the distance is enough to pass through/over/under it, was it fired at it?

Blood lance states it can move as needed to hit targets in higher areas.
Does not state a limit on height, so the sky is still fair game.

Problem is, you are not actually firing it at anything, you are just firing it in a general direction.
Someone earlier said if it was a random direction it would be fine.
How so? its still not fired at anything, you have just made it ineffective to use against anything at any point in time.

Now, rules state that it needs to be "fired at" for the whole flyer rules to kick in.
This shooting attack does not have a target, thus you are not firing it at anything specific, just in a general direction.
Firing something towards a model does not mean you are firing at it.

If i fire a lance at a unit of boyz and it goes through them and into a 2nd unit behind them, i havent shot at them, infact, i didnt shoot at the 1st unit.
I simply fired it towards them.

Granted the whole debate hinges on the word "at" but it needs to.
Firing towards and at something are nowhere near the same thing.
The rules use "fired at" as a trigger to activate flyer rules.
If said trigger is not activated, i would assume the rules related to it are never brought into use.

Hold up folks. Put the at/against discussion part aside.


I want Tyr to resolve the shot with the Flyer unit.

@Tyr

Page 12, The Shooting Sequence

2. Choosing a target. The unit can shoot AT one enemy unit that it can see.



Page 12, CHOOSE A TARGET

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target to shoot AT.



Page 13, WHICH MODELS CAN FIRE?

All models in the unit must shoot AT the same target unit.



Page 73, SHOOTING AT VEHICLES

When a unit fires AT a vehicle, it must be able to see its hull or turret.

<snip>

As the whole unit must fire AT the same target, this often means that some of their weapons can't damage the target vehicle,.....



And yet somehow I am reading too much into,

Page 81, Hard to Hit

Shots resolved AT a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.



?????

How about I make my counter-accusation? Everyone against Blood Lance not hitting Zooming Flyers are willfully ignoring "Shots resolved AT..." as a reference to the defined shooting process in Warhammer 40k to bolster their flawed argument.

Page 12 and 13 does not apply to blood lance since it doesnt have a nominated target obviously. You were the one saying that. Now don't try to use wordings from that paragraph to support your argument. This is not particularly credible.
Page 73 also doesn't apply to blood lance since it doesnt need LOS. So this part is also invalid for our discussion.

The whole targetting process is skipped and therefore all reference to target units (i.e. the word AT) as well. This is the reason why blood lance is not shot at a certain unit. So it is not a shot at someone resolved but a hit on someone. Big difference.

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
@Tyr

Page 12, The Shooting Sequence

2. Choosing a target. The unit can shoot AT one enemy unit that it can see.



Page 12, CHOOSE A TARGET

Once you have chosen the unit that you want to shoot with, choose a target to shoot AT.



Page 13, WHICH MODELS CAN FIRE?

All models in the unit must shoot AT the same target unit.



Page 73, SHOOTING AT VEHICLES

When a unit fires AT a vehicle, it must be able to see its hull or turret.

<snip>

As the whole unit must fire AT the same target, this often means that some of their weapons can't damage the target vehicle,.....



And yet somehow I am reading too much into,

Page 81, Hard to Hit

Shots resolved AT a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.



?????

How about I make my counter-accusation? Everyone against Blood Lance not hitting Zooming Flyers are willfully ignoring "Shots resolved AT..." as a reference to the defined shooting process in Warhammer 40k to bolster their flawed argument.

Page 12 and 13 does not apply to blood lance since it doesnt have a nominated target obviously. You were the one saying that. Now don't try to use wordings from that paragraph to support your argument. This is not particularly credible.
Page 73 also doesn't apply to blood lance since it doesnt need LOS. So this part is also invalid for our discussion.

The whole targetting process is skipped and therefore all reference to target units (i.e. the word AT) as well. This is the reason why blood lance is not shot at a certain unit. So it is not a shot at someone resolved but a hit on someone. Big difference.

You do know you that if you actually read my posts in this thread that you would see that has been my premise all along? That the Hard to Hit rule refers specifically to all the examples I have given and because Blood Lance does not use any of those examples I listed, Hard to Hit does not apply to Blood Lance.

/facepalm

You do know you that if you actually read my posts in this thread that you would see that has been my premise all along? That the Hard to Hit rule refers specifically to all the examples I have given and because Blood Lance does not use any of those examples I listed, Hard to Hit does not apply to Blood Lance.

/facepalm

Yes, because I did read your posts I do know that you you were argueing in favour of blood lance. So I was wondering why you wrote such a post (The one I quoted before). If it was irony, I couldnt find it behind your language. Sorry about that. Still no aggression or facepalm needed, mate...

So, when ever your ready to resolve this shot Tyr, we can move on.

Xzerios wrote:
So, when ever your ready to resolve this shot Tyr, we can move on.

We already know that you think that when the Hard to Hit rule says, "Shots resolved at a Zoomin Flyer..." it refers to some other shot resolution not defined by rules. The exercise is pointless because your counter to the defined process with be,

"That is not what the Hard to Hit rule means when it tells you shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."

And yet you have nothing to point at to support your claim. How about you tell me what Hard to Hit means when it says, "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."? Show me your rules

So, how are you going to resolve the shot without resolving it at the Flyer if it was struck by the shot?


Cause once more, if you dont have Skyfire and are going to resolve shots with a Flyer, your Snap Firing as Hard to Hit has stated. As it stands Tyr, the only thing that The Blood Lance has managed to do is prevent the Flyer from taking its Evade rule. We wont get to that rule though cause youll still have to resolve your shot and due to Hard to Hit, you cant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

We already know that you think that when the Hard to Hit rule says, "Shots resolved at a Zoomin Flyer..." it refers to some other shot resolution not defined by rules. The exercise is pointless because your counter to the defined process with be,

"That is not what the Hard to Hit rule means when it tells you shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."

And yet you have nothing to point at to support your claim. How about you tell me what Hard to Hit means when it says, "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."? Show me your rules

... Wait, you want me to show you how to resolve shots at a flyer? Thats all your asking? Page 74 sir. The whole process for Resolving Shots on that page does so.

Now, you need to prove that your Shot does not need to be resolved at the Flyer without resolving in order to get around Hard to Hit.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
So, when ever your ready to resolve this shot Tyr, we can move on.

We already know that you think that when the Hard to Hit rule says, "Shots resolved at a Zoomin Flyer..." it refers to some other shot resolution not defined by rules. The exercise is pointless because your counter to the defined process with be,

"That is not what the Hard to Hit rule means when it tells you shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."

And yet you have nothing to point at to support your claim. How about you tell me what Hard to Hit means when it says, "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."? Show me your rules

As much as you would like to claim the shot was not targeted at the flyer, or somehow the flyer was hit, but the shot wasn't fire AT the flyer, all shots that hit a flyer, were shot AT the flyer.

I put a gun over my shoulder and fire blind, if I hit a cat, I still fired the gun AT the cat.

Just because you didn't "choose a target" or other special term your psyker is still firing AT the flyer. This is what you cannot get around no matter how you try.

Xzerios wrote:
So, how are you going to resolve the shot without resolving it at the Flyer if it was struck by the shot?


Cause once more, if you dont have Skyfire and are going to resolve shots with a Flyer, your Snap Firing as Hard to Hit has stated. As it stands Tyr, the only thing that The Blood Lance has managed to do is prevent the Flyer from taking its Evade rule. We wont get to that rule though cause youll still have to resolve your shot and due to Hard to Hit, you cant.

/sigh

I feel like Michael Coreleone. Pay attention Xzerios and read, NOT SKIM OVER, but read the following;

Page 67, Manifesting Psychic Powers
Page 68, Types of Psychic Powers: Powers Without a Type

As a shooting attack, I start with the Shooting Sequence,

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot: BA Librarian.

Having nominated a BA Librarian to use a PSA, I need to now reference Manifesting Psychic Powers

1. Expend Warp Charge: BA Librarian reduces his Warp Charge by 1
2. Declare Target: You do not declare a target with the Blood Lathe PSA.
3. Take Psychic Test: BA Librarian takes a psychic test.
4. Deny the Witch: No enemy was targeted by the Blood Lance PSA so no Deny the Witch roll is granted.
5. Resolve Psychic Power: Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarians base in any direction - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type. Friendlu units, and enemy units locked in close combat, are unaffected - the lance darts over them before continuing on its course.

***A quick question Xzerios, do you see anything above that indicates that I am shooting at a Zooming Flyer? Yea, didn't thinks so.

6. A Zooming Flyer is in the lance's path and suffers a single Strength 8, AP 1 hit with the 'lance' type.
7. As a Zooming Flyer is a vehicle you do not roll to wound, but instead roll for armor penetration to determine if the hit is a glancing or penetrating hit.
8. As a Zooming Flyer is a vehicle, you resolve damage from the glancing or penetrating hit.

Feel free to ramble on about how resolving a shot at a Zooming Flyer is not what I think it is and that I am reading into, "AT".

This may have been mentioned already, have not really looked at the whole thread, but... When is the Blood Lance used? In the Shooting phase? And if it is, wouldn't that put it under a shooting attack?

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
So, when ever your ready to resolve this shot Tyr, we can move on.

We already know that you think that when the Hard to Hit rule says, "Shots resolved at a Zoomin Flyer..." it refers to some other shot resolution not defined by rules. The exercise is pointless because your counter to the defined process with be,

"That is not what the Hard to Hit rule means when it tells you shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."

And yet you have nothing to point at to support your claim. How about you tell me what Hard to Hit means when it says, "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer..."? Show me your rules

As much as you would like to claim the shot was not targeted at the flyer, or somehow the flyer was hit, but the shot wasn't fire AT the flyer, all shots that hit a flyer, were shot AT the flyer.

I put a gun over my shoulder and fire blind, if I hit a cat, I still fired the gun AT the cat.

Just because you didn't "choose a target" or other special term your psyker is still firing AT the flyer. This is what you cannot get around no matter how you try.

This isn't Cathammer 40k.

If it was however,

As you did not declare the cat as the target of your over the shoulder blind firing attack, you were not shooting at the cat even if you did indeed hit the cat.

Cathammer 40k is not real life yp.

Garukadon wrote:
This may have been mentioned already, have not really looked at the whole thread, but... When is the Blood Lance used? In the Shooting phase? And if it is, wouldn't that put it under a shooting attack?

...it's a Psychic Shooting Attack. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

Ok, since you dont want to finish resolving your shot. Ill take the STR8 hit. My Flyer has AV11 all the way around. You do nothing.


Oh, you want to roll to pen? Guess what your doing? (heres the part where the music for opening a chest from any Zelda game plays) Resolving your shot~~~~


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pg 81 BRB wrote:
Hard To Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42). Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode.

Na~ Na~ Naaaaaa~

Xzerios wrote:
Ok, since you dont want to finish resolving your shot. Ill take the STR8 hit. My Flyer has AV11 all the way around. You do nothing.


Oh, you want to roll to pen? Guess what your doing? (heres the part where the music for opening a chest from any Zelda game plays) Resolving your shot~~~~

I see your finally getting it. Now you roll your Armor pen and see what happens.

Xzerios wrote:
Ok, since you dont want to finish resolving your shot. Ill take the STR8 hit. My Flyer has AV11 all the way around. You do nothing.


Oh, you want to roll to pen? Guess what your doing? (heres the part where the music for opening a chest from any Zelda game plays) Resolving your shot~~~~


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pg 81 BRB wrote:
Hard To Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42). Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode.

Na~ Na~ Naaaaaa~

Let me fix that selective reaiding problem of yours.

At what point is Blood Lance declaring the Zooming Flyer a target and rolling to hit it? I listed the entire breakdown of the rules for you and you cannot even grasp the basic concept of shooting at a target as defined in the rules. You grasp, or lack thereof, the rules is so painful that it almost seems deliberate.

Good sir, you still need to resolve your shot. Your codex has stated that it never has to roll to hit and that will deny the Flyer model Evade as it works. However, you will still need the BRB to resolve your shot (cause the codex doesnt do that step). Thats where you run aground with the logic I have put forth. In order for your power to work as your describing, you have to show me that your shot is able to resolve itself, without resolving to deny the model Hard to Hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:At what point is Blood Lance declaring the Zooming Flyer a target and rolling to hit it? I listed the entire breakdown of the rules for you and you cannot even grasp the basic concept of shooting at a target as defined in the rules.

Do you really think Im arguing you not hitting the model. I refer you back to your own logic. Im talking about the resolving part of the shot, you know, the part that comes after you (in this case have not) rolled to hit.

Xzerios wrote:
Good sir, you still need to resolve your shot. Your codex has stated that it never has to roll to hit and that will deny the Flyer model Evade as it works. However, you will still need the BRB to resolve your shot (cause the codex doesnt do that step). Thats where you run aground with the logic I have put forth. In order for your power to work as your describing, you have to show me that your shot is able to resolve itself, without resolving to deny the model Hard to Hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:At what point is Blood Lance declaring the Zooming Flyer a target and rolling to hit it? I listed the entire breakdown of the rules for you and you cannot even grasp the basic concept of shooting at a target as defined in the rules.

Do you really think Im arguing you not hitting the model. I refer you back to your own logic. Im talking about the resolving part of the shot, you know, the part that comes after you (in this case have not) rolled to hit.

You fail again.....haahahahaha!

All I have to show you is that I am not resolving a shot AT A ZOOMING FLYER. That is shown both on page 12, where the Librarian does not choose to shoot at a Zooming Flyer and in the fact that Blood Lance does not require a roll to hit the Zooming Flyer. From that point on, I am not resolving a shot AT A ZOOMING FLYER, I am resolving a STRENGTH 8, AP 1, LANCE HIT ON A ZOOMING FLYER. Roll for armor penetration as normal and resolve damage as normal.

You seriously have no idea how rules interact in the different sections of the rulebook do you?

Read Hard to hit, did you see the part where it talked about rolling to hit? Neither did I. Its only interaction with your shot is the resolution. You can use the word 'on', 'at' and even 'against' in your sentence but Hard to Hit cares not what word your using. Your resolving, and thats not permitted by the profile of your shot.

You have nothing that prevents his resolution. Only something that would force him to fire via snapfire IF he targeted it.


Here ill quote you:

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots

Bolded for emphasis.

He does not meet the criteria to trigger the snapshot. This has been pointed out numerous times and you agreed.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
You have nothing that prevents his resolution. Only something that would force him to fire via snapfire IF he targeted it.


Here ill quote you:

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots

Bolded for emphasis.

He does not meet the criteria to trigger the snapshot. This has been pointed out numerous times and you agreed.

You are correct. There is nothing that can prevent him from resolving his shot. The trigger condition to Hard to hit is when you move to resolve your damage against it, not when you didnt roll to hit. If you claim its not targeted by the shot, how are you going to resolve your shot without resolving your shot? You still need page 74 to resolve your penetrating hit on the vehicle and thats where Hard to Hit tells you that it must be resolved as a Snap Shot. Since his lance Psychic Shooting Attack is disallowed by Snap Fire, the shot cant be resolved as it has been disallowed from firing in the first place. Simply put, in order for your model to finish its shot, you got to go through that resolution. If you state that its bypassing the 'hit', then its bypassing the resolution, but you cant bypass your shot resolution. What is your shot going to be resolved against? Resolution still requires a target as its worded and as your codex functions, you will need page 74 to finish your shot. If your unable to fill in the blank, the game goes to wonk land.


So, I ask your side, are you going to use the rules on page 74 (which will usher in Hard to Hit as it functions), or are you going to sit there with an unresolved shot with a Flyer model?

The snap shot reference in that sentence refers to shooting at a vehicle. As far as the sentence is concerned "resolve" refers to hitting as a Snap shot and has nothing to do with rolling on a damage table.

The trigger condition to Hard to hit is when you move to resolve your damage against it,

This is a made up rule.

Pg 81 BRB wrote:
Hard To Hit
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule, as described on page 42). Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode.

When I roll to hit I resolve the shot, nothing in this text governs anything related to damage results in any way.

If I hit the target automatically the "shot" is resolved. Period.

Again, nothing in the H2H rule here mentions damage results at all. More to the point not only are we moving on to an entirely different step after striking a vehicle with a hit but we reference an entirely different table.

You have no grounds to support your claim that resolving a shot continues past determining a hit or miss.

The wording of the rule itself should give insight.

# 1 The rule references shooting at a target, the flyer in this case.
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots

#2 the next portion references to hit and weapons that are unable to do so.
Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode.

again, zero mention of hard to hit governing anything outside being shot at. Not one mention of determining damage results. Your argument is simply not supported by the rule you cite.

The process for firing your weapon(s) is outlined at the back of the book with the game summary. The whole entirety of the shooting phase outlines what you must do to resolve your shot.
First, choose a target: Codex trumps. It has stated with the power that no target will be declared.
Next, Roll to Hit: Again, codex trumps. The FaQ outlines that the power does not roll to hit. This causes a myriad of issues to arrise. Due in nature to this coming from a Codex, those issues are trumped.
The next step here is where we must figure out what we are about to resolve the shot against; Non-vehicle units, or vehicle units as both have different rules to resolve the shot. This is also where the Codex' trumping power ends folks. Since the Codex nor the Psychic Shooting attack has either of these sets of rules to finish resolving the shot, you are differed to use the BRB.
(non-vehicle units) Roll to wound: you use this rule as normal. Cover saves and invulnerable saves apply and once those have been taken and results of those saves either success or failure; the shot is now resolved
(vehicle units) you roll a D6 and add that to your shots strength and that gives you the results of your penetration result. Remove Hull Points for glances and follow the penetrating chart to resolve the effects of the shot if it penetrated. Once the results of the shot have been applied to the vehicle, in either successful glance or penetrating hit; the shot is resolved.
Its the Roll to Wound bit that the codex doesnt trump. You say no target for the declare target? No problem, codex says so. You say no need to Roll to Hit? No problem, codex says so. You say no need to Roll to wound? Sorry, BRB says you still must to resolve the shot as the codex didnt give you permission to skip this part and auto-apply the results. Work the rule for non-vehicles accordingly, just as you must for vehicles.
Its in this step of your resolution of the shot that Hard to Hit steps up and now stops you from finishing your shot. Again, Hard to Hit stated that "Shots Resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots". Since you must use the BRB to resolve the shot in the Roll to Wound step; and this rule is more specific than Resolving Damage from page 74, your shot is now subject to Snap Shots.

Since you must use the BRB to resolve the shot in the Roll to Wound step

Incorrect, there is no roll to wound step with the ability being discussed in this thread.

Then... how are you wounding/penetrating the unit?

Exactly as Tyr has outlined since page 1.

He only spoke of the Declaring a Target and Rolling to Hit portion of these rules. Rolling to Wound was not mentioned on the first page. If you want to go by what the rule states, it mentions a STR8, AP1 hit. Against a Flyer, a STR8 hit wont bring down any flyer currently out.

Against a Flyer, a STR8 hit wont bring down any flyer currently out.

Irrelevant.

The ability hits anything under the line. Anything hit by the ability suffers a STR 8 hit. Period. This is not vague.

This line of argument is known as a red herring.

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

Topic A is under discussion.
Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
Topic A is abandoned.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.

So, your going to roll to penetrate on the flyer right? Cause thats part of resolving the shot and that part that the codex is unable trump and Hard to Hit then trumps the rules for Rolling to Wound. Since you agree that the model will be using the rules for Rolling to Wound, it now follows that path of how the rules interact as once again, the Codex' trumping power from page seven only covered two portions of resolving the hit. The "Suffers a single Strength 8, AP1 hit with the 'lance' type" is only the stat block for helping you resolve your shot in the Rolling to Wound section of the rules.

Xzerios wrote:
The process for firing your weapon(s) is outlined at the back of the book with the game summary. The whole entirety of the shooting phase outlines what you must do to resolve your shot.
First, choose a target: Codex trumps. It has stated with the power that no target will be declared.
Next, Roll to Hit: Again, codex trumps. The FaQ outlines that the power does not roll to hit. This causes a myriad of issues to arrise. Due in nature to this coming from a Codex, those issues are trumped.
The next step here is where we must figure out what we are about to resolve the shot against; Non-vehicle units, or vehicle units as both have different rules to resolve the shot. This is also where the Codex' trumping power ends folks. Since the Codex nor the Psychic Shooting attack has either of these sets of rules to finish resolving the shot, you are differed to use the BRB.
(non-vehicle units) Roll to wound: you use this rule as normal. Cover saves and invulnerable saves apply and once those have been taken and results of those saves either success or failure; the shot is now resolved
(vehicle units) you roll a D6 and add that to your shots strength and that gives you the results of your penetration result. Remove Hull Points for glances and follow the penetrating chart to resolve the effects of the shot if it penetrated. Once the results of the shot have been applied to the vehicle, in either successful glance or penetrating hit; the shot is resolved.
Its the Roll to Wound bit that the codex doesnt trump. You say no target for the declare target? No problem, codex says so. You say no need to Roll to Hit? No problem, codex says so. You say no need to Roll to wound? Sorry, BRB says you still must to resolve the shot as the codex didnt give you permission to skip this part and auto-apply the results. Work the rule for non-vehicles accordingly, just as you must for vehicles.
Its in this step of your resolution of the shot that Hard to Hit steps up and now stops you from finishing your shot. Again, Hard to Hit stated that "Shots Resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots". Since you must use the BRB to resolve the shot in the Roll to Wound step; and this rule is more specific than Resolving Damage from page 74, your shot is now subject to Snap Shots.

So are you screen shotting the digital copy or a hacked copy of the 6th Edition rulebook or something, because what you have posted is not in my book or in the summary at the back of the book. From the summary in the back of my rulebook regarding resolving Armor Penetration:

- Against vehicle units: instead of using the chart, add the number rolled on the dice to the weapon's Strength.

If the total equals the Armor Value of the appropriate facing (see page 73), a glancing hit has been scored.

If the total beats the Armor Value of the appropriate facing, a penetrating hit has been scored.

- If the vehicle is obscured (see page 75) or is granted a saving throw from another source, it can attempt a saving throw against each glancing and penetrating hit.
- Reduce the vehicles Hull Points by 1 for each unsaved glancing or penetrating hit.
- Finally roll on the table below for each unsaved penetrating hit.

Add 1 to each roll caused by a weapon with an AP value of 2.

Add 2 to each roll caused by a weapon with an AP value of 1 (see page 74)

Add a further 1 to every roll if the target vehicle is open-topped.

-Once a vehicle is reduced to 0 Hull Points it is wrecked (see page 94). The vehicle is destroyed but left on the battlefield, effectively becoming a piece of difficult and dangerous terrain.

You will notice that the BRB summary does not refer to resolving shots at all like your screen shots. So what is the source of your screen shots?

In fact what are you trying to pass of as rules? The second screen shot of your "rules" states that you lose a Hull Point for "glances", yet it leaves out the fact that you also lose a Hull Point for penetrating hits.

Oh, its just a quick paraphrase of the rules from the back. Thats what the code tag does now, didnt used to look so ... odd.
Back to the topic though, the wound/penetration portion of Resolving the shots is what The Blood Lance fails to trump with its rules. Its got two of the three parts of resolving the Psychic Shooting attack covered, but its this last part that gets ya guys. Hard to hit as it is written covers the whole resolving process with 'resolved at'. The Blood Lance doesnt as its written doesnt need to Declare a Target; nor Roll to Hit as its expressly covered by the Codex. Its when the player needs to step out to use the Roll to Wound/Penetrate is where the all encompassing 'resolved at' prevents the shot due to its requirement to resolve it as a Snap Shot.


Stupid wording as the shot is resolved in three steps and in some cases, this can cause a headache going back and undoing things. However, as Hard to Hit is worded, you end up going back to square one, and then square zero with this situation. :|

Strawman and Begging the question fallacies are not an effective argument x.

You have no grounds to support your claim that resolving a shot continues past determining a hit or miss.

In fact the only quote ( paraphrased or not) that it looks like you flat made up states nothing about resolving the shot, it talks about resolving the EFFECTS of a shot.

Remove Hull Points for glances and follow the penetrating chart to resolve the effects of the shot

You agreed previously that:

First, choose a target: Codex trumps. It has stated with the power that no target will be declared.

Next, Roll to Hit: Again, codex trumps. The FaQ outlines that the power does not roll to hit.

You now claim that shot cannot resolve because you cannot resolve a damage result. Your own quote states nothing of the kind:

Remove Hull Points for glances and follow the penetrating chart to resolve the effects of the shot

The only way for the power to be allowed to resolve the EFFECTS of a hit at all is if it has hit. Once I have hit I have bypassed the H2H rule. Infact i now MUST resolve the effects of my hit on the vehicle via these rules:

- Against vehicle units: instead of using the chart, add the number rolled on the dice to the weapon's Strength.
If the total equals the Armor Value of the appropriate facing (see page 73), a glancing hit has been scored.

If the total beats the Armor Value of the appropriate facing, a penetrating hit has been scored.

- If the vehicle is obscured (see page 75) or is granted a saving throw from another source, it can attempt a saving throw against each glancing and penetrating hit.
- Reduce the vehicles Hull Points by 1 for each unsaved glancing or penetrating hit.
- Finally roll on the table below for each unsaved penetrating hit.
Add 1 to each roll caused by a weapon with an AP value of 2.

Add 2 to each roll caused by a weapon with an AP value of 1 (see page 74)

Add a further 1 to every roll if the target vehicle is open-topped.


-Once a vehicle is reduced to 0 Hull Points it is wrecked (see page 94). The vehicle is destroyed but left on the battlefield, effectively becoming a piece of difficult and dangerous terrain.

Xzerios wrote:
Oh, its just a quick paraphrase of the rules from the back. Thats what the code tag does now, didnt used to look so ... odd.
Back to the topic though, the wound/penetration portion of Resolving the shots is what The Blood Lance fails to trump with its rules. Its got two of the three parts of resolving the Psychic Shooting attack covered, but its this last part that gets ya guys. Hard to hit as it is written covers the whole resolving process with 'resolved at'. The Blood Lance doesnt as its written doesnt need to Declare a Target; nor Roll to Hit as its expressly covered by the Codex. Its when the player needs to step out to use the Roll to Wound/Penetrate is where the all encompassing 'resolved at' prevents the shot due to its requirement to resolve it as a Snap Shot.


Stupid wording as the shot is resolved in three steps and in some cases, this can cause a headache going back and undoing things. However, as Hard to Hit is worded, you end up going back to square one, and then square zero with this situation. :|

So it was YOU that added all the mentions of "shot resolution", "shot resolved", and "the shot is now resolved" even though what I posted up as the actual summary from the back of the book does not mention any of those terms?

edited by Morathi's Darkest Sin. You tried to present a paraphrasing of a defined summary for shooting by including the vernacular necessary to try and make your argument appear valid.

Just for the record, the vernacular used for Armor Penetration and Resolving Damage is HITS. You resolve Armor Penetration of the Blood Lance HIT and your resolve damage from the Blood Lance HIT.